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Re: Laidler gone according to HUN

Reply #15

Genuinely shocked, and disappointed at what I just read.

There is a plethora of anecdotal evidence to support both arguments - to spank or not to spank. This issue is far greater and way more important than anecdotal stories.

But if you want anecdotal, then I will meet your anecdotal and raise you an anecdotal… I have 2 daughters who were never spanked, which to me, if I had, would have been physical abuse. Today, they are both terrific 'citizens'. They were both set strong and clear boundaries... enforced by voice, example and non-negotiable rewards and punishments (never physical. Boundaries is the key).

A child’s body (indeed, all people), is sacrosanct.

Too many of us are the parents that our parents were. Well, not here. My sister, brother and I were disciplined in the good old Catholic way... spare the rod and spoil the child. Watching my sister, deeply distressed, at age 14, whilst my father 'spanked' her was traumatic. She learned nothing from his 'hiding'... other than shame. Yes, I know, anecdotal… but I know what his hidings did to my sister (and me).

For any human being to believe that striking another person is good for them; will help them, is obscene and ridiculous. The only thing violence teaches is that violence will get you what you want by force... and that lesson is all around us and contributes significantly to so many social issues.

Please do not confuse my comments with some flowery 60s or Swedish understanding that kids should be regarded as adult and given no discipline and just allowed to develop and grow on their own – rubbish. Boundaries are the key, but how you enforce these boundaries says more about you than your kids – if you need to resort to violence (hitting) to get obedience, then you have failed. You are the adult. You have the big brain. Use it.


Baggers, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but calling someone else's opinion "obscene and ridiculous" simply because it does not line up with your own opinion is IMO not playing the ball or fair to other people sharing their thoughts and opinions about this topic.

Yes I believe that there is far too much physical abuse(disguised as discipline) between parents and children. How ever, I personally was physically, but lovingly disciplined as a kid, and I never had a problem with how or why said discipline was meted out! And when done correctly I believe corporal punishment is a very effective method of discipline.
[/b]Couldn't agree more, i had a thousand wooden spoons broken on my backside because i was a little turd, it got to the point where i thought it was amusing. Then the old lady busted out the massive novelty wooden spoon and fork that most of the Europeans have hanging in their kitchen's as decor, wasn't so funny after that  :P The kid's need to know who's boss, and smacking is the absolute last resort after trying to reason with a child and sometimes tough love is the best way to go, used sparingly of course. Horses for courses, some children don't respond too well to the physical side of punishment, and some do.

How parents choose to discipline their child/children should be completely up to the individual based on what the child responds to best.

Abuse and Discipline are two totally different things.

Re: Laidler gone according to HUN

Reply #16
We had a candle in our house on the mantle which was used as an authoritarian piece of equipment. If you ever saw the candle burning and alight, it meant one of us had misbehaved and a hiding could strike to the antagonist at any time. We used to call it the 'belting candle'. 
 
Once I blew it out.  ;D

Re: Laidler gone according to HUN

Reply #17

Genuinely shocked, and disappointed at what I just read.

There is a plethora of anecdotal evidence to support both arguments - to spank or not to spank. This issue is far greater and way more important than anecdotal stories.

But if you want anecdotal, then I will meet your anecdotal and raise you an anecdotal… I have 2 daughters who were never spanked, which to me, if I had, would have been physical abuse. Today, they are both terrific 'citizens'. They were both set strong and clear boundaries... enforced by voice, example and non-negotiable rewards and punishments (never physical. Boundaries is the key).

A child’s body (indeed, all people), is sacrosanct.

Too many of us are the parents that our parents were. Well, not here. My sister, brother and I were disciplined in the good old Catholic way... spare the rod and spoil the child. Watching my sister, deeply distressed, at age 14, whilst my father 'spanked' her was traumatic. She learned nothing from his 'hiding'... other than shame. Yes, I know, anecdotal… but I know what his hidings did to my sister (and me).

For any human being to believe that striking another person is good for them; will help them, is obscene and ridiculous. The only thing violence teaches is that violence will get you what you want by force... and that lesson is all around us and contributes significantly to so many social issues.

Please do not confuse my comments with some flowery 60s or Swedish understanding that kids should be regarded as adult and given no discipline and just allowed to develop and grow on their own – rubbish. Boundaries are the key, but how you enforce these boundaries says more about you than your kids – if you need to resort to violence (hitting) to get obedience, then you have failed. You are the adult. You have the big brain. Use it.


Baggers, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but calling someone else's opinion "obscene and ridiculous" simply because it does not line up with your own opinion is IMO not playing the ball or fair to other people sharing their thoughts and opinions about this topic.

Well said.

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #18
We had a candle in our house on the mantle which was used as an authoritarian piece of equipment. If you ever saw the candle burning and alight, it meant one of us had misbehaved and a hiding could strike to the antagonist at any time. We used to call it the 'belting candle'. 
 
Once I blew it out.  ;D

And what happened as a result of you braking rank and rejecting the disciplinary system?
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

― Mark Twain

Re: Laidler gone according to HUN

Reply #19
We had a candle in our house on the mantle which was used as an authoritarian piece of equipment. If you ever saw the candle burning and alight, it meant one of us had misbehaved and a hiding could strike to the antagonist at any time. We used to call it the 'belting candle'. 
 
Once I blew it out.  ;D
I get it, you have a shy sister called Carrie and an Aunt named Annie who looks after an injured author.  ;D

It's all a bit Stephen Kingesque, but I get the drinking now, that being the case! :o
The Force Awakens!

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #20
There is a real problem within this type of debates, there is often no valid perspective from the inside.

The only way you may find rational objectivity is to view from a distance. Most children love their parents regardless, and most parents love their children regardless. Not matter how extreme a childhood might seem to an external observer, often the participants find positives.

For example, a friend of mine was horribly abused as a child, this led to drugs and crime all before he had left school(Actually, he was asked to leave!) Yet he states today as a recovered drug user, reformed criminal and healed child that if it wasn't for his extreme childhood experiences he may have never survived this far. I try to point out that if he had instead lived a normal childhood, there may have been nothing to be a survivor from in the first place, but he cannot see it as for him there is only one life!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Laidler gone according to HUN

Reply #21
We had a candle in our house on the mantle which was used as an authoritarian piece of equipment. If you ever saw the candle burning and alight, it meant one of us had misbehaved and a hiding could strike to the antagonist at any time. We used to call it the 'belting candle'. 
 
Once I blew it out.  ;D
I get it, you have a shy sister called Carrie and an Aunt named Annie who looks after an injured author.  ;D

It's all a bit Stephen Kingesque, but I get the drinking now, that being the case! :o

You mean you never had a belting candle in your house??  ;D

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #22
I was hit sparingly when I was growing up.

It wouldnt have been an annual occurence as an example, but when it happened I had stuffed up big time thoroughly and deserved it.

I.e.  When I was 12 (or was it 11?), I had been caught stealing lego from K-mart (contrast that to 12 year olds in society today, who probably have "outgrown" playing with toys by age 12) and was taken to the cop shop.  A big bru haha was the result as my older sister was working there (at Kmart and on shift) at the time and something that I did not even consider was drummed into me which was that I represented her in a poor way at her place of employment as a representative of the same family, and to which I received the belt as my punishment.  Not ridiculously outlandish, enough to hurt and make me cry, but it wasnt the pain that made me cry, it was the understanding that I had farked up in a massive way, and that despite what I did from that day onwards, there was no changing what I had done.  My mum actually went in to bat for me whilst dad hit me with the belt, and I told her not to get in the way.  Not because I didnt want to get hit, it was due to me understanding that I had stuffed up, and let myself down as much as I had anyone else.  Officially, the police gave me a 5 year caution which was no real repercussion to be had as it was something that I didnt even understand at the time.  It was not even a thought in my mind, although it did make me think of the consequences of any actions beyond that day, but I will not forget that whole scenario at home and that was basically the last time I did anything of that nature.  Now, had my parents given me a stern talking to, there is no guarantee that the lesson would not have sunk in.  I have no way of knowing how that same scenario plays out, but I wonder whether or not it would have resonated as strongly with me, had the scenario played out differently.

There is no way anyone can tell me whether or not it would have either, as there are varying degrees of how things would have gone with other methods.  Some parents may have been very stern and given other punishments, others would have chosen to try and understand the mind of a 12 year old, and figure out what made it all occur.  It was simply a matter of timing.  I had gone grocery shopping with mum, and being bored asked if I could go next door to kmart instead and look at toys.  Mum had let me do that before, and she said yes.  Now people might accuse her of bad parenting, but thats not the case, she had spent the entire afternoon with me by taking me to the library, taking me to Mcdonalds for lunch, and I thought I would be asking for too much to ask for her to buy me lego, so I went next door with no intention of taking it, but buying it.  I was 50 cents short.  (back in 1991 that was a bit more money than it is today, probably the equivalent of a few dollars).  But I wanted that one.

Speaking rationally with minors can work to a point.  At what point are they just being irrational?

Thats something that cannot be defined.  Which is why I find the argument that you should never hit children false.  Its not something to do willy nilly but you need it in the arsenal to bring out on some vary rare occasions.  It also teaches that there is depth to punishment.  Yes taking away lollies can hurt, but not quite like a belt hitting you can.  Nor can missing out on seeing a movie at the cinema give you that pain.  Even today the actual pain from the belt I cannot remember, its the idea that I did something that bad that was worthy of it that annoys me.  At age 12, I should have known better.

This is where religion also should not be underestimated either.  As a child we dont think rationally, but the idea that god was all knowing and was the only person who could forgive me, and that I had broken his sacred covenant, was as damaging if not more so, and my parents told me that its best to ask him for forgiveness.  Not because of any repercussion, but they advised me that I would not be able to forgive myself if I hadnt asked for forgiveness from those they said I feel like I had let down.  I still sometimes ask for forgiveness for that action.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #23
Ahh....the old Lego stealing. I did that sometimes when I was a kid.  ;D
 
Got caught very few times. There was one time when I didn't end up stealing any lego. The neighbours had gone out and left the gate open. Their son had his big shiny Lego boat in the backyard. I went in the backyard and saw it...I could have easily taken it. Instead I smashed it to pieces for him to come home to. 
 
It's understandable when Lego is involved, Thry!  ;D
 

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #24
There is a real problem within this type of debates, there is often no valid perspective from the inside.

The only way you may find rational objectivity is to view from a distance. Most children love their parents regardless, and most parents love their children regardless. Not matter how extreme a childhood might seem to an external observer, often the participants find positives.

For example, a friend of mine was horribly abused as a child, this led to drugs and crime all before he had left school(Actually, he was asked to leave!) Yet he states today as a recovered drug user, reformed criminal and healed child that if it wasn't for his extreme childhood experiences he may have never survived this far. I try to point out that if he had instead lived a normal childhood, there may have been nothing to be a survivor from in the first place, but he cannot see it as for him there is only one life!

Im no psychologist. but i wonder whether the need to validate those that you once depended on (from the point of view of belonging) is a fundamental survival need that far outweighs logic?
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

― Mark Twain

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #25
We have never hit our children and I'm from an era being 50+ that was all about getting strapped at school and a whack on the backside or the odd slap if I fell out of line at home. Getting whacked by my parents only made me resentful and I swore I would be a better parent and never do it.
I prefer the stern words and lecture approach...no place for violence although I believe in teaching my children to look after themselves especially with bullying.

I do make an exception with bullies and believe there is sometimes no other way....my young son on his first day of school was knocked around by a bigger kid and had his cap stolen...the kid had an issue with my eldest  daughter and decided to take the easy route and pick on her younger brother. His bigger sister however was doing martial arts at the time and was fairly accomplished for her age and took matters into her own hands unknown to me....she asked the bully boy for the cap back and when he said make me she broke his nose with a well delivered palm strike by all reports.

Bully boy was carted off to sick bay with a bloodied snout and yours truly was rung at work to take home my so called violent daughter.....I was told she was suspended for 2 days and needed disciplining.
On hearing the real story from my daughter, son and onlookers I  marched up to the school and paid out on the principal, praised my daughter in front of him(rightly or wrongly) and suggested he provide a safe environment for my children to learn in.....later that night I told my daughter not to do it again but said I understood her motives and that she needed to seek mum and dads advice before doing similar again.
Bully boy never bothered my children again and a good clip on the snout worked wonders in his case.....sadly though it turns out that bully boy was a foster child and his home life had been violent and he had been hit as a child and this was the only form of discipline he knew.

I tend to agree with Baggers on that basis that discipline in the form of physical punishment is all wrong and only breeds more violence and can shape children in the wrong way....





Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #26
We have never hit our children and I'm from an era being 50+ that was all about getting strapped at school and a whack on the backside or the odd slap if I fell out of line at home. Getting whacked by my parents only made me resentful and I swore I would be a better parent and never do it.
I prefer the stern words and lecture approach...no place for violence although I believe in teaching my children to look after themselves especially with bullying.

I do make an exception with bullies and believe there is sometimes no other way....my young son on his first day of school was knocked around by a bigger kid and had his cap stolen...the kid had an issue with my eldest  daughter and decided to take the easy route and pick on her younger brother. His bigger sister however was doing martial arts at the time and was fairly accomplished for her age and took matters into her own hands unknown to me....she asked the bully boy for the cap back and when he said make me she broke his nose with a well delivered palm strike by all reports.

Bully boy was carted off to sick bay with a bloodied snout and yours truly was rung at work to take home my so called violent daughter.....I was told she was suspended for 2 days and needed disciplining.
On hearing the real story from my daughter, son and onlookers I  marched up to the school and paid out on the principal, praised my daughter in front of him(rightly or wrongly) and suggested he provide a safe environment for my children to learn in.....later that night I told my daughter not to do it again but said I understood her motives and that she needed to seek mum and dads advice before doing similar again.
Bully boy never bothered my children again and a good clip on the snout worked wonders in his case.....sadly though it turns out that bully boy was a foster child and his home life had been violent and he had been hit as a child and this was the only form of discipline he knew.

I tend to agree with Baggers on that basis that discipline in the form of physical punishment is all wrong and only breeds more violence and can shape children in the wrong way....

awesome story, I say well done to your daughter...as per main line in Kenny Rogers  famous song (i think thats his name?) 'sometimes you have to fight when your a man' or in this case a women  :)
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

― Mark Twain

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #27
I should clarify that my intense dislike of 'spanking' children does not indicate that I am a pacifist... though I am opposed to violence and war. I do agree with non-violent demonstration and similar, and of course no violence in the family home. But... when defending yourself, all bets are off.

I like EB1s story and he and I are of a similar vintage... 50s going on 35 ;) His story dealt with life realities. (I had a very similar experience to EB1 as a kid in terms of being hit by parents and also only reacting with hurt, resentment and alienation. Likewise, I deciding to never do the same to my kids).

I was taught martial arts from the age of 12 and was further trained in how to 'disable' an attacker in the Navy. I taught my two lovelies (now in their early 30s) how to do serious harm to any attacker that did not require them to be particularly strong. A last resort but there are times when dropping someone is absolutely necessary to prevent harm to self and/or loved ones.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #28
I was hit sparingly when I was growing up.

It wouldnt have been an annual occurence as an example, but when it happened I had stuffed up big time thoroughly and deserved it.

I.e.  When I was 12 (or was it 11?), I had been caught stealing lego from K-mart (contrast that to 12 year olds in society today, who probably have "outgrown" playing with toys by age 12) and was taken to the cop shop.  A big bru haha was the result as my older sister was working there (at Kmart and on shift) at the time and something that I did not even consider was drummed into me which was that I represented her in a poor way at her place of employment as a representative of the same family, and to which I received the belt as my punishment.  Not ridiculously outlandish, enough to hurt and make me cry, but it wasnt the pain that made me cry, it was the understanding that I had farked up in a massive way, and that despite what I did from that day onwards, there was no changing what I had done.  My mum actually went in to bat for me whilst dad hit me with the belt, and I told her not to get in the way.  Not because I didnt want to get hit, it was due to me understanding that I had stuffed up, and let myself down as much as I had anyone else.  Officially, the police gave me a 5 year caution which was no real repercussion to be had as it was something that I didnt even understand at the time.  It was not even a thought in my mind, although it did make me think of the consequences of any actions beyond that day, but I will not forget that whole scenario at home and that was basically the last time I did anything of that nature.  Now, had my parents given me a stern talking to, there is no guarantee that the lesson would not have sunk in.  I have no way of knowing how that same scenario plays out, but I wonder whether or not it would have resonated as strongly with me, had the scenario played out differently.

There is no way anyone can tell me whether or not it would have either, as there are varying degrees of how things would have gone with other methods.  Some parents may have been very stern and given other punishments, others would have chosen to try and understand the mind of a 12 year old, and figure out what made it all occur.  It was simply a matter of timing.  I had gone grocery shopping with mum, and being bored asked if I could go next door to kmart instead and look at toys.  Mum had let me do that before, and she said yes.  Now people might accuse her of bad parenting, but thats not the case, she had spent the entire afternoon with me by taking me to the library, taking me to Mcdonalds for lunch, and I thought I would be asking for too much to ask for her to buy me lego, so I went next door with no intention of taking it, but buying it.  I was 50 cents short.  (back in 1991 that was a bit more money than it is today, probably the equivalent of a few dollars).  But I wanted that one.

Speaking rationally with minors can work to a point.  At what point are they just being irrational?

Thats something that cannot be defined.  Which is why I find the argument that you should never hit children false.  Its not something to do willy nilly but you need it in the arsenal to bring out on some vary rare occasions.  It also teaches that there is depth to punishment.  Yes taking away lollies can hurt, but not quite like a belt hitting you can.  Nor can missing out on seeing a movie at the cinema give you that pain.  Even today the actual pain from the belt I cannot remember, its the idea that I did something that bad that was worthy of it that annoys me.  At age 12, I should have known better.

This is where religion also should not be underestimated either.  As a child we dont think rationally, but the idea that god was all knowing and was the only person who could forgive me, and that I had broken his sacred covenant, was as damaging if not more so, and my parents told me that its best to ask him for forgiveness.  Not because of any repercussion, but they advised me that I would not be able to forgive myself if I hadnt asked for forgiveness from those they said I feel like I had let down.  I still sometimes ask for forgiveness for that action.
Top post Thry

Re: Laidler gone according to HUN

Reply #29
Kids are well trained in tactics to deal with bullying, and what you describe as the old ways is now nothing more than bullying. It doesn't work with young men anymore, they are too well educated and socially connected.

Anyone thinking they can go down that path will quickly find themselves redundant like Pagan!

There is no respect earned through abuse!

Read this. http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/life/swedens-liberal-parents-spoil-children-rotten-20131102-2wtjy.html

Have a wee think about it and tell me why social engineering isn't to blame, along with the warped media, in screwing up today's youth. I can guarantee you that my kids are one of the best behaved, well mannered and happiest out of all their friends. Why? Because they have boundaries that are non negotiable, they know to behave, they get rewarded for doing tasks around the house. If they cross the line they punished and yes..I have belted my kids and will continue to do so. Has to be done. The threat alone keeps them in toe now 99% of the time. The bastard who thought that parents should negotiate with immature minds should be put on trial.

The best line in that Article is that a family is not a democracy. Brilliant. Between my wife and I, those kids have respect and if that is tinged with fear..they'll thank me later when they see their friends treat their parents like crap and shake their own heads. Friends to my kids, yes, but Dad first.

Genuinely shocked, and disappointed at what I just read.

There is a plethora of anecdotal evidence to support both arguments - to spank or not to spank. This issue is far greater and way more important than anecdotal stories.

But if you want anecdotal, then I will meet your anecdotal and raise you an anecdotal… I have 2 daughters who were never spanked, which to me, if I had, would have been physical abuse. Today, they are both terrific 'citizens'. They were both set strong and clear boundaries... enforced by voice, example and non-negotiable rewards and punishments (never physical. Boundaries is the key).

A child’s body (indeed, all people), is sacrosanct.

Too many of us are the parents that our parents were. Well, not here. My sister, brother and I were disciplined in the good old Catholic way... spare the rod and spoil the child. Watching my sister, deeply distressed, at age 14, whilst my father 'spanked' her was traumatic. She learned nothing from his 'hiding'... other than shame. Yes, I know, anecdotal… but I know what his hidings did to my sister (and me).

For any human being to believe that striking another person is good for them; will help them, is obscene and ridiculous. The only thing violence teaches is that violence will get you what you want by force... and that lesson is all around us and contributes significantly to so many social issues.

Please do not confuse my comments with some flowery 60s or Swedish understanding that kids should be regarded as adult and given no discipline and just allowed to develop and grow on their own – rubbish. Boundaries are the key, but how you enforce these boundaries says more about you than your kids – if you need to resort to violence (hitting) to get obedience, then you have failed. You are the adult. You have the big brain. Use it.

Top post Baggers, I completely agree.