Carlton Supporters Club

Kids are a year older.
Our backline was decimated by injury last year...hopefully more settled next year.
Injury and a lack of a good pre-season affected some of our midfield as well.
Good luck to any defence lining up on McKay, Curnow and McGovern :D
A small goal kicking forward would top that off nicely and we have a few 'possibles" there.

The real issue will be the midfield applying enough pressure to aid the defence and at the same time providing enough forward entries and scoring opportunities for 'Charlie McHarry'

Murphy still has good footy in him, injuries withstanding.

How fast will the new blokes like Setterfield (21 next year), Kennedy (22 next year) and Lang (24 next year) start making a meaningful contribution?

The first two ex GWS blokes are both big bodies and (if fully fit) should go a long way to helping out Crippa.

Then, to our young draftees:

Willo (21 next year, late)
Cuners (22 next year - make or break for David)
Dow (20 next year - we have a player here folks)
O'Brien (20 next year)
Fish (21 next year, see Dow...)
Polson (21 next year)
SPS (21 next year)

And likely 18yo Sam Walsh....all of the above will start hitting peak output in 2020 more or less - I'd expect to make the 8 in 2020. Next year maybe 10-12th spot.

Hopefuly we get Barlow and/or Grigg. We have  a real need for one or two more mature agers.

And likely 18yo Sam Walsh....all of the above will start hitting peak output in 2020 more or less - I'd expect to make the 8 in 2020. Next year maybe 10-12th spot.

We need to making finals and losing well before we are ready to make a real long term impact, they will need the experience.

We do not want to be one hit wonders, like a the starving homeless man invited to a feast then sent back to live in the gutter!

Also, the longer the lead-time to finals the lower our chance of retaining layers. Fans might hold the line and maintain the faith long term, but aging players won't if they are not given some positive short term signs! Believing otherwise is just a wish!

Kids are a year older.
Our backline was decimated by injury last year...hopefully more settled next year.
Injury and a lack of a good pre-season affected some of our midfield as well.
Good luck to any defence lining up on McKay, Curnow and McGovern :D
A small goal kicking forward would top that off nicely and we have a few 'possibles" there.

The real issue will be the midfield applying enough pressure to aid the defence and at the same time providing enough forward entries and scoring opportunities for 'Charlie McHarry'

For me it also depends what the other clubs are doing, we might improve but we saw teams like Collingwood, North, Melbourne etc improved out of sight and the ones that were meant to drop off didnt.
I have no doubt we will improve but it has to be measured against the other teams... only Gold Coast and Stkilda are teams I would confidently say we are going to beat.....
There isnt a game plan yet and IMO our defense is dodgy in the key spots......dont see Jones and Weitering holding up vs the teams that have real deal KP forwards....
Mcgovern, Charlie and Harry will need to kick a lot of goals for us to win because down the other end its going to be carnage.....

There isnt a game plan yet and IMO our defense is dodgy in the key spots......dont see Jones and Weitering holding up vs the teams that have real deal KP forwards....
Mcgovern, Charlie and Harry will need to kick a lot of goals for us to win because down the other end its going to be carnage.....

I think the defensive side of things comes back to the mid-field pressure I talked about in the OP.
It's not the only factor....but if the mids are getting dominated and the ball is coming in quickly and often that's when players like Jones and Weitering will get caught out.
If Jones drifts away from his man and there's a turnover midfield....or he backs his judgement and attacks the ball while a group of opposition midfielders are waltzing through ours... then we're in strife.

We'll be bottom 4 in 2019 IMO. Too many unproven aspects to our game, and too many things have to go right to finish much higher.

For me it also depends what the other clubs are doing, we might improve but we saw teams like Collingwood, North, Melbourne etc improved out of sight and the ones that were meant to drop off didnt.
I have no doubt we will improve but it has to be measured against the other teams... only Gold Coast and Stkilda are teams I would confidently say we are going to beat.....
There isnt a game plan yet and IMO our defense is dodgy in the key spots......dont see Jones and Weitering holding up vs the teams that have real deal KP forwards....
Mcgovern, Charlie and Harry will need to kick a lot of goals for us to win because down the other end its going to be carnage.....

I know our defense looked a bit dodgey at times last year but in all honesty I thought they held up brilliantly for large chunks of the year.

Our midfield was non-competitive and the ball was flying straight down to the backline without any pressure what-so-ever. Critical turnovers in really dangerous positions constantly. I think out backline will be our strength if they're all fit and the midfield is able to pressure the D50 entries. Plowman, Doc, Simmo, Jones, Weitering, Marchbank, Newman, Williamson, McGovern (at times) - it's a good mix and there is a lot of depth there.

I'd also like to see Samo play half back for a year. I think he could make a real impact with his smarts and ball use and get his confidence right up. He's got to cut out those silly 15m sideways chips that get cut off. But it would be a good spot for him to develop. He could get 25+ pos a game and allow Doc to play midfield - where I think he will end up - and where we desperately need him.

Dow could be a big mover this year. He's the one I think could jump right up the rankings quickly. He's got the natural strength / speed / ability to progress quickly. I agree with SOS - he should have been taken at pick 1 last year. A more natural midfielder than Rayner who will be good but a Jake Stringer type and Brayshaw doesn't have the speed.

If Fisher can take that step from a 19 pos per game player to a 25+ pos per game player it will be massive for us also. Such a good user and always finds space to run at the opposition.

Murphy - needs to play wing / flank where he could still be damaging. He only damaged us last year. He was putrid. Injuries may have caught up to him though. Have to hope for an injury free run.

I'm extremely positive about next year but if we're changing 4-6 players every single week like we did last year we'll be winning the spoon again. We just can't afford key guys to be out but if we have a good run we could be looking at a rapid rise.

I know our defense looked a bit dodgey at times last year but in all honesty I thought they held up brilliantly for large chunks of the year.

Our midfield was non-competitive and the ball was flying straight down to the backline without any pressure what-so-ever. Critical turnovers in really dangerous positions constantly. I think out backline will be our strength if they're all fit and the midfield is able to pressure the D50 entries. Plowman, Doc, Simmo, Jones, Weitering, Marchbank, Newman, Williamson, McGovern (at times) - it's a good mix and there is a lot of depth there.

I'd also like to see Samo play half back for a year. I think he could make a real impact with his smarts and ball use and get his confidence right up. He's got to cut out those silly 15m sideways chips that get cut off. But it would be a good spot for him to develop. He could get 25+ pos a game and allow Doc to play midfield - where I think he will end up - and where we desperately need him.

Dow could be a big mover this year. He's the one I think could jump right up the rankings quickly. He's got the natural strength / speed / ability to progress quickly. I agree with SOS - he should have been taken at pick 1 last year. A more natural midfielder than Rayner who will be good but a Jake Stringer type and Brayshaw doesn't have the speed.

If Fisher can take that step from a 19 pos per game player to a 25+ pos per game player it will be massive for us also. Such a good user and always finds space to run at the opposition.

Murphy - needs to play wing / flank where he could still be damaging. He only damaged us last year. He was putrid. Injuries may have caught up to him though. Have to hope for an injury free run.

I'm extremely positive about next year but if we're changing 4-6 players every single week like we did last year we'll be winning the spoon again. We just can't afford key guys to be out but if we have a good run we could be looking at a rapid rise.

Agree with most of this, fitness, both injury wise and improved running ability (A Russell) will be massive factors.
I don't think we have been anywhere near fit enough, and a 10% improvement plus a smaller injury list would see our confidence skyrocket.
Not having spuds playing and having quality replacements will help a bit.
SPS, Dow, Fisher, O'Brien, Pickett and Polson all need to become running machines next year.
A fit Williamson and Docherty will improve the back line enormously

Setterfield and Kennedy the keys to seeing a highly competitive midfield imo.

Setterfield and Kennedy the keys to seeing a highly competitive midfield imo.

Spot-on fb.

They're the 2 that can help Cripps the most.

A mate in Sydney reckons Neuman played some good footy in the midfield too, but didn't get  a lot of time there because
they had plenty of midfielders.

We'll be bottom 4 in 2019 IMO. Too many unproven aspects to our game, and too many things have to go right to finish much higher.

+1.

It's like the reverse of murphy's law.

Everything has to go perfectly for us to have a dramatic improvement to our fortunes.

We will be doing well to have won about 6-8 games, and I also think thats a realistic target to aim for, and yet that still will see us in that bottom 4-6 scenario.

Spot-on fb.

They're the 2 that can help Cripps the most.

A mate in Sydney reckons Neuman played some good footy in the midfield too, but didn't get  a lot of time there because
they had plenty of midfielders.

Newman looks ideally suited to a wing? The link man delivering the ball I50?

I'm just just curious as to what the 'landscape' club wise would look like with another bottom 4 finish.
I'm sure the hard -core would be hanging on.
But the seepage of support would be that much greater and the hard core that much thinner.

I'm not sure our prospects for picking up talent at next year's trade/ draft period would be great either ...so the future would be doubtful.
Nope...these blokes have to come on next year, and that means improvement in wins and position.

+1.

It's like the reverse of murphy's law.

Everything has to go perfectly for us to have a dramatic improvement to our fortunes.

We will be doing well to have won about 6-8 games, and I also think thats a realistic target to aim for, and yet that still will see us in that bottom 4-6 scenario.

Nope, we only need a modest amount of luck with injuries to improve markedly.

Loads of organic improvement (almot inevitable) plus the return of injured players (quality ones at that) and a swag of quality new faces.

Need to beat the Tigers Rd 1 and get a much needed shot of confiudence....

I think the defensive side of things comes back to the mid-field pressure I talked about in the OP.
It's not the only factor....but if the mids are getting dominated and the ball is coming in quickly and often that's when players like Jones and Weitering will get caught out.
If Jones drifts away from his man and there's a turnover midfield....or he backs his judgement and attacks the ball while a group of opposition midfielders are waltzing through ours... then we're in strife.

Weitering isnt a key defender yet......like Marchbank he prefers the intercept game rather than having to body up on the likes of  Dixon, Lynch, Kennedy etc....
You look at the list and its Jones and Weitering only vs the big key forwards, there is nothing else...McGovern isnt a key backman and has just said he prefers playing forward....
We need another key tall back who has some grunt and kegs on the frame.......you look at GWS, its their weakness too, SOS really never addressed the key back area and its cost them.
Booting Rowe and losing Silvagni to retirement meant we should have recruited a mature replacement but we didnt....
Midfield pressure for sure will help but you look at Setterfield and he is a new kid with only two games and Kennedy is still a doubtful quantity vs real class and we are not even sure he can stay on the park for the majority of the season. Docherty back is great and hopefully Williamson is fit to go as well but you look at round 1 and Lynch and J. Reiwoldt and it makes me uneasy with two very flakey opponents like Jones and JW playing on them.....

Kerr might be the KPD man EB1, he's played that role at VFL level.

Docherty back is great and hopefully Williamson is fit to go as well but you look at round 1 and Lynch and J. Reiwoldt and it smakes me uneasy with two very flakey opponents like Jones and JW playing on them.....

But on that basis we've had nothing for Lynch before or after the departure of Rowe and ACoS, as I see it the problem isn't the KPDs, the problem is our pissweak midfield defensive running efffort.

Regardless, what are the odds Reiwoldt will clean up Lynch sometime early in the season, like he has to all the other KPFs that competed with him for the football!

Mcgovern, Charlie and Harry will need to kick a lot of goals for us to win because down the other end its going to be carnage.....

That's very glass half empty EB, we haven't even started pre season yet, they haven't smashed the HOPE out of me for next year yet ;D ;D

That's very glass half empty EB, we haven't even started pre season yet, they haven't smashed the HOPE out of me for next year yet ;D ;D

I'm still hopeful CJ, I'm just a realist and that backline in regards tall defenders doesnt impress me....

I still think midfield is our biggest problem. There may be some incremental improvement from some of the youngsters, equally some may stagnate or get injured. I was hoping we would bring in 1 or 2 mature mids to help out, but we didn't. So I think that means bottom 4 in 2019

I'm just just curious as to what the 'landscape' club wise would look like with another bottom 4 finish.
I'm sure the hard -core would be hanging on.
But the seepage of support would be that much greater and the hard core that much thinner.

I'm not sure our prospects for picking up talent at next year's trade/ draft period would be great either ...so the future would be doubtful.
Nope...these blokes have to come on next year, and that means improvement in wins and position.

Finishing 15th would be an improvement on 2018. I think you will get a mixed bag of feelings at all supporter levels, from the Carltonians all the way down. None will be terribly happy, but some will be screaming blue murder, and some will be more understanding.

I look through the other 17 teams, and I really can't see one game where we are a lock to win. I reckon we have a chance against the Saints and GC, and that's about it.

Finishing 15th would be an improvement on 2018. I think you will get a mixed bag of feelings at all supporter levels, from the Carltonians all the way down. None will be terribly happy, but some will be screaming blue murder, and some will be more understanding.

That's the point though....the 'more understanding' is not 'a growing group'...it's a diminishing one.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-09-01/fans-season-verdict-carlton

TWO WINS is a miserable season by any measure, and Carlton fans have delivered a scathing verdict on their campaign, rating it just 1.8 out of 10.

It's the lowest fan rating for any club in two seasons, on the back of the Blues' fifth wooden spoon and 55 straight games without scoring 100 points.

On the other hand.....

https://www.theroar.com.au/2018/10/26/october-dreaming-the-best-time-to-be-a-carlton-supporter/

Finishing 15th would be an improvement on 2018. I think you will get a mixed bag of feelings at all supporter levels, from the Carltonians all the way down. None will be terribly happy, but some will be screaming blue murder, and some will be more understanding.

I look through the other 17 teams, and I really can't see one game where we are a lock to win. I reckon we have a chance against the Saints and GC, and that's about it.

Yes, but you're judging against our 2018 form - there will half a new team or more in 2019. This year's form is a sad irrelevance. Fact.

If the few of the kids go bang, anything could happen.....

That's the point though....the 'more understanding' is not 'a growing group'...it's a diminishing one.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-09-01/fans-season-verdict-carltonOn the other hand.....

https://www.theroar.com.au/2018/10/26/october-dreaming-the-best-time-to-be-a-carlton-supporter/

Lods, I get that. Supporters can only hang on for so long.

I think we need a little perspective with numbers - Carlton has 50000? paid up members ? Plus another x thousand who aren't paid up. How many folks voted in that poll ? How many members does this site have ? We are numerically speaking, only a fraction of a much bigger group. The vote in that poll was never going to be anything different, but it would be wrong to assume that there is a majority who will demand that heads must roll if we don't get to 15th or higher. We simply don't know.

I still think midfield is our biggest problem. There may be some incremental improvement from some of the youngsters, equally some may stagnate or get injured. I was hoping we would bring in 1 or 2 mature mids to help out, but we didn't. So I think that means bottom 4 in 2019

Who says the game's over yet?

So far i've seen that we play Richmond rd1, Essendon rd2 and Hawthorn in Laurnceston rd6.

So far i've seen that we play Richmond rd1, Essendon rd2 and Hawthorn in Laurnceston rd4. Hope round 3 is nice.

I think the Hawks game is R6. We play the Pies and Ess in the JLT series, so we should hear those collective groans earlier than expected.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-10-31/giants-to-host-friday-night-blockbuster-in-canberra

+1.

It's like the reverse of murphy's law.

Everything has to go perfectly for us to have a dramatic improvement to our fortunes.

We will be doing well to have won about 6-8 games, and I also think thats a realistic target to aim for, and yet that still will see us in that bottom 4-6 scenario.

I say this every year, but i can never recall it perfectly but its along the same lines as you.

But, factors people fail to consider, which happens almost every year are....
1. Long term injury to important players
2. 2nd year blues - A young kid fails to live up to the breakout first season and goes backwards in year 2 - Dow?
3. A veteran player starts to decline and fails to live up to their lofty standards - Simpson?
4. A shock retirement - Rowe this year (albeit end of year) maybe Kreuzer this year?

and there are a couple of other ones which i cannot recall. Something about a couple of players not having a pre-season and playing catchup all year (ala Kennedy/Lang)

Factor all of that into your predictions and it'll be a lot more accurate.

I think the Hawks game is R6. We play the Pies and Ess in the JLT series, so we should hear those collective groans earlier than expected.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-10-31/giants-to-host-friday-night-blockbuster-in-canberra

Yes, you're right. Round 6. Fixed it now.

I say this every year, but i can never recall it perfectly but its along the same lines as you.

But, factors people fail to consider, which happens almost every year are....
1. Long term injury to important players
2. 2nd year blues - A young kid fails to live up to the breakout first season and goes backwards in year 2 - Dow?
3. A veteran player starts to decline and fails to live up to their lofty standards - Simpson?
4. A shock retirement - Rowe this year (albeit end of year) maybe Kreuzer this year?

and there are a couple of other ones which i cannot recall. Something about a couple of players not having a pre-season and playing catchup all year (ala Kennedy/Lang)

Factor all of that into your predictions and it'll be a lot more accurate.

Yep
But eventually we'll have a better run with those...than say last year.
A year where more goes right than goes wrong ..and watch us soar. ;)
Depth goes a large way to covering those unexpected events and that's an area where we're probably improving.

Yep
But eventually we'll have a better run with those...than say last year.
A year where more goes right than goes wrong ..and watch us soar. ;)

Yes, but that is basically the base line.
For every year you get a good run, there is a year you get a bad run.

Regardless, our story is still a little different. OVER half our list is 23 and under. (May even be 22 and under, i cannot recall exactly.) So we simply don't have the depth, yet, to cover as many injuries as most clubs. Further to that, we are underdeveloped by comparison to others and are MORE likely to get injuries at AFL as a result......MORE than our fair share due to our list makeup.

Yes, but that is basically the base line.
For every year you get a good run, there is a year you get a bad run.

Regardless, our story is still a little different. OVER half our list is 23 and under. (May even be 22 and under, i cannot recall exactly.) So we simply don't have the depth, yet, to cover as many injuries as most clubs. Further to that, we are underdeveloped by comparison to others and are MORE likely to get injuries at AFL as a result......MORE than our fair share due to our list makeup.

Given that....
How do you think a bottom 4 finish would be perceived by members and supporters next year Kruds?

Given that....
How do you think a bottom 4 finish would be perceived by members and supporters next year Kruds?

Depends.

I think we've had this discussion before too.

We can be bottom 4 by winning a handful of games and getting belted every other week.
or
We can be bottom 4 by winning over a handful of games and being competitive every other week.

One is, IMO, acceptable, and one is not.

We need to look at our old friend the % and see a steady increase i suspect.

Given that....
How do you think a bottom 4 finish would be perceived by members and supporters next year Kruds?

I’d expect HOW we finish to far more important than WHERE...

If we finish 9th with some floggings, is that actually better than finishing 18th and being in the hunt for the majority of every game ?

I'd be happy with ninth and some floggings...I wouldn't be happy with a bottom 4 no matter how competitive we were.
My personal feelings would be  that a bottom four finish would mean patience has run out and changes would be made...I think that's the worst possible scenario because it means another restart, possibly with a new coach.....but we'll have to wait and see.

My personal feelings would be  that a bottom four finish would mean patience has run out and changes would be made...I think that's the worst possible scenario because it means another restart, possibly with a new coach.....but we'll have to wait and see.

What i think would be worse than a bottom 4 finish would be if the coach starts to question himself and the direction. If we see any signs of that, he is a goner. However, if we do see some signs of improvement, and blue skies ahead, i think we could handle another bottom 4 finish.

I agree, if we 'go too soon' and sack him, it will probably set the rebuild back further than if we stand by him.

I'd be happy with ninth and some floggings...I wouldn't be happy with a bottom 4 no matter how competitive we were.
My personal feelings would be  that a bottom four finish would mean patience has run out and changes would be made...I think that's the worst possible scenario because it means another restart, possibly with a new coach.....but we'll have to wait and see.

Straight from page 1 of the CFC playbook - sack the coach. A strategy with a proven track record.

Straight from page 1 of the CFC playbook - sack the coach. A strategy with a proven track record.

The question has to be then....  How long?
Any other coach would already be gone...
You don't get forever
2019  is it as far as I'm concerned.
Progress or GO!

What folks aren't getting is that even without a rebuild the chances are we'd have a more competitive unit than we had in 2018.
Players wouldn't be baulking at us as a destination club.
The draft no longer ensures success.... it's free agency and trading.
The draft is obsolete
The rebuild has set us up nicely with youth but the time is now....not two or three years down the track.
NOW!

The question has to be then....  How long?
Any other coach would already be gone...
You don't get forever
2019  is it as far as I'm concerned.
Progress or GO!

IMO, the coach shouldn't even be part of the discussion until the end of the 2020 season. I've said it before, if things are still dismal, get the mob who did the Pies and Tigers audit, get them to scrutinise the joint from top to bottom, and then make changes based on that. I'd be most surprised if they determined Bolton needed to go.

The question has to be then....  How long?
Any other coach would already be gone...
You don't get forever
2019  is it as far as I'm concerned.
Progress or GO!

If we see good signs he will stay, if it is another year this... asta lavista baby! ???

IMO, the coach shouldn't even be part of the discussion until the end of the 2020 season. I've said it before, if things are still dismal, get the mob who did the Pies and Tigers audit, get them to scrutinise the joint from top to bottom, and then make changes based on that. I'd be most surprised if they determined Bolton needed to go.

Bolton needs to show something in 2019.

Bolton needs to show something in 2019.

Most certainly, he'll be scrutised closely. One would expect at least 6 to 8 wins for Bolts to retain his postion.  

I actually like Bolton
I think he's what we need at the moment
But it's time he shows he can progress this side.
I think he can
But if he can't...Time is up!

IMO, the coach shouldn't even be part of the discussion until the end of the 2020 season. I've said it before, if things are still dismal, get the mob who did the Pies and Tigers audit, get them to scrutinise the joint from top to bottom, and then make changes based on that. I'd be most surprised if they determined Bolton needed to go.

Yet, you have been wrong before!

IMO, the coach shouldn't even be part of the discussion until the end of the 2020 season. I've said it before, if things are still dismal, get the mob who did the Pies and Tigers audit, get them to scrutinise the joint from top to bottom, and then make changes based on that. I'd be most surprised if they determined Bolton needed to go.

Agree with most of that. I'll say I'm happy to wait for as long as it takes. AFAIC, we've been down the sack the coach path and where has it got us? The bloke will make, he and the team needs time. I said in another post that "Its time", by that I meant its time to stop making excuses for everything and be ruthless on the field. Do that and it will turn very quickly.

I say this every year, but i can never recall it perfectly but its along the same lines as you.

But, factors people fail to consider, which happens almost every year are....
1. Long term injury to important players
2. 2nd year blues - A young kid fails to live up to the breakout first season and goes backwards in year 2 - Dow?
3. A veteran player starts to decline and fails to live up to their lofty standards - Simpson?
4. A shock retirement - Rowe this year (albeit end of year) maybe Kreuzer this year?

and there are a couple of other ones which i cannot recall. Something about a couple of players not having a pre-season and playing catchup all year (ala Kennedy/Lang)

Factor all of that into your predictions and it'll be a lot more accurate.

I have.

Hence why 6-8 wins.

Yet, you have been wrong before!

Yes, I have. There might be people somewhere on this planet who get everything right, and are constantly firing off all these amazing top-of-the-line insights, but they certainly give this place a fairly wide berth.

Agree with most of that. I'll say I'm happy to wait for as long as it takes. AFAIC, we've been down the sack the coach path and where has it got us? The bloke will make, he and the team needs time. I said in another post that "Its time", by that I meant its time to stop making excuses for everything and be ruthless on the field. Do that and it will turn very quickly.

The problem is "as long as it takes" is not realistic in football terms because pressure increases with every unsuccessful year.
While some are prepared to be patient, others will say...Is this really the best way forward?
If we'd just rolled along as we had in the past without a rebuild would we have finished 2 and 20 in 2018...who knows, but I suspect not.
Would we be better placed for the future...you would like to think we would be ...but again, who knows!
At the end of the day football is about success and progress.
If that's not occurring at a very visible and measurable rate questions will be asked of the direction you've chosen.
For some of us older folk ..."as long as it takes" is unacceptable because we may not be around to see the fruits of the rebuild.

Bolton needs to show something in 2019.

"showing something" is an ambiguous phrase - we cut Bolton some slack this season because of youth and shocking injuries. What happens next season if we suffer bad injuries again ?

The problem is "as long as it takes" is not realistic in football terms because pressure increases with every unsuccessful year.
While some are prepared to be patient, others will say...Is this really the best way forward?
If we'd just rolled along as we had in the past without a rebuild would we have finished 2 and 20 in 2018...who knows, but I suspect not.
Would we be better placed for the future...you would like to think we would be ...but again, who knows!
At the end of the day football is about success and progress.
If that's not occurring at a very visible and measurable rate questions will be asked of the direction you've chosen.
For some of us older folk ..."as long as it takes" is unacceptable because we may not be around to see the fruits of the rebuild.

Firstly, if you think I'm "young", think again. My point is what if Richmond sacked Dimma in 2016 and Geel sacked Bomber before the 2007 season? Now I also know the WB sacked McCarthy and won a flag under Beveridge, but I'll guess and say Macca did all the hard work and the oxygen thief Bevo came along and reaped the rewards. I'll also guess we have sacked more coaches than anyone (or at least equal) and its got us to where we are now. I'm happy to do something different for a change.

"showing something" is an ambiguous phrase - we cut Bolton some slack this season because of youth and shocking injuries. What happens next season if we suffer bad injuries again ?

You judge it on circumstances no doubt.
And he's had a bad run with injuries this year.
It's a reason he's been cut a little bit of slack.
2 and 20 without the injuries and he's in the sights.

Firstly, if you think I'm "young", think again. My point is what if Richmond sacked Dimma in 2016 and Geel sacked Bomber before the 2007 season? Now I also know the WB sacked McCarthy and won a flag under Beveridge, but I'll guess and say Macca did all the hard work and the oxygen thief Bevo came along and reaped the rewards. I'll also guess we have sacked more coaches than anyone and its got us to where we are now. I'm happy to do something different for a change.

That's fair enough.
I've no doubt the club has done a terrific bit of salesmanship in terms of the approach they're taking.
But there comes  a point when folks start to wonder whether they've been "sold a pup".

14/18
16/18
18/18

That's what we have during Bolton's time.
So yep
We're being a bit patient...very unCarlton like.
The Coles 6,000 dollar questions are
When does this turn around?
What has Bolton shown us so far?
What can he show us?

As I see it he's been given a very good young group to work with... when do we see signs that he can use his magic to turn that group into a winning combination?
Until we see that I have to remain sceptical.
Happy to give him a chance... but sceptical.

Impossible not to be sceptical....

BB has really shown very little in terms of getting hi skill set (teaching mantra) stuff to convert into wins....

............................ I'll also guess we have sacked more coaches than anyone (or at least equal) and its got us to where we are now. I'm happy to do something different for a change.

I agree. We can't keep sacking coaches every three years, and expect to hit pay dirt.

You judge it on circumstances no doubt.
And he's had a bad run with injuries this year.
It's a reason he's been cut a little bit of slack.
2 and 20 without the injuries and he's in the sights.

That's fair enough.
I've no doubt the club has done a terrific bit of salesmanship in terms of the approach they're taking.
But there comes  a point when folks start to wonder whether they've been "sold a pup".

14/18
16/18
18/18

That's what we have during Bolton's time.
So yep
We're being a bit patient...very unCarlton like.
The Coles 6,000 dollar questions are
When does this turn around?
What has Bolton shown us so far?
What can he show us?

As I see it he's been given a very good young group to work with... when do we see signs that he can use his magic to turn that group into a winning combination?
Until we see that I have to remain sceptical.
Happy to give him a chance... but sceptical.

Lods all I'm saying is despite being a grumpy old prick who wants the old Carlton back (ie ladder position), I am not in the camp thatS putting a time frame around BB's tenure. I also don't see it as "salesmanship" per se`, I just see it as a fresh, new, unCarlton like approach which  I am comfortable with. Now thats what I think at the moment, if we were to lose every game for the next two years (extreme I know), I cant say I will be thinking the same as that would mean the "signs of the right direction" would have disappeared. Would I be worried if we had another year like 2018? A little, but no I wouldn't sack BB. Do I think we will have another year like 2018? No I don't.

Lods all I'm saying is despite being a grumpy old prick who wants the old Carlton back (ie ladder position), I am not in the camp thatS putting a time frame around BB's tenure. I also don't see it as "salesmanship" per se`, I just see it as a fresh, new, unCarlton like approach which  I am comfortable with. Now thats what I think at the moment, if we were to lose every game for the next two years (extreme I know), I cant say I will be thinking the same as that would mean the "signs of the right direction" would have disappeared. Would I be worried if we had another year like 2018? A little, but no I wouldn't sack BB. Do I think we will have another year like 2018? No I don't.

I don't think we'll have another 2018 either.
But if we did I think we'd have reached the point where significant changes would have to occur.
Hopefully it's onward and upward in 2019 ;)

Would the club have employed Walls help if they were convinced on BB.....???

Would the club have employed Walls help if they were convinced on BB.....???

But he is not employed.

Wall's been offered a token unpaid volunteering position, it's a token position for a club great to otherwise be our version of Sheedy!

But he is not employed.

Wall's been offered a token unpaid volunteering position, it's a token position for a club great to otherwise be our version of Sheedy!

I think it's a little more structured and thought through than Sheedy's role LP, but it is a part time voluntary role:

As part of a broader development program for the Blues’ coaching staff, Carlton great Robert Walls will return to Ikon Park in 2019 as a mentor to the Blues’ AFL coaching panel.

Head of Football Brad Lloyd said the Blues were delighted to welcome back Walls.

“The Club, as part of their Coach Development Program, is putting together a coach mentoring component for all the coaches across the club and we approached Robert to see if he would be interested to play a role as a mentor,” Lloyd said.

“As a club, we’re committed to further developing our coaches’ skillsets through our Coach Development Program.”

“We’re thrilled to have a mentor of Walls’ calibre on board and look forward to his contribution.”

The three-time premiership player, who coached the Blues to the 1987 VFL premiership, said he was delighted to accept the voluntary role.

“I’m helping out in a very small way, just in a mentoring role with the coaching staff. I’ll be just a sounding board throughout the weeks and match days, so hopefully I can give them some support,” Walls said.

I note that the footy media types who beat the story up haven't come out and said that they were barking up the wrong drainpipe  ;)

Yet, you have been wrong before!

Geez to that must be hard for you to write... ????

Geez to that must be hard for you to write... ????

very easy!  ;D

IMO, the coach shouldn't even be part of the discussion until the end of the 2020 season. I've said it before, if things are still dismal, get the mob who did the Pies and Tigers audit, get them to scrutinise the joint from top to bottom, and then make changes based on that. I'd be most surprised if they determined Bolton needed to go.

Yes, agree with you here Paul, you cannot expect overnight success. Bolton was very reticent to let Gibbs go, as he knew what that really meant in terms of effect on the team, and, the players around him. You can't replace that without a like for like, which was know we couldn't get. Injuries, and the departure of experience left us devoid of coverage - all discussed here before.

Personally, the arrival of Andrew Fraser may be the greatest recruiting impact for next season in particular, and, I suspect the year after. This will shape the list, allow players to start to show their talent on the bigger stage. Who knows what a fit SPS, Williamson, and, Pickett may deliver. Those three in particular I highlight, as some serious organic development from them covers not only their set positions, but opens up new areas of the ground. If SPS, and Pickett were able to push into the midfield more, or play off half back, you will see other positional changes from other players, and this will really help us develop.

The players I expect to show some real organic development this year are:
Setterfield (if he gets a full pre-season, no reason he cannot be a very good player in his first year essentially - think Dow last year)
Cunningham (again, full pre-season, and who knows what he can deliver)
Williamson (if fit, he will play a lot this year)
Macreadie (the forgotten man in many ways, I rate this guy)
O'Brien (he has some talent, will be much better for another run, and a full pre-season)
Lang (full pre-season into him, and I think he will be starting 22 most weeks. He can play, showed that at Geelong, and in flashes last year)
Kennedy (he played a couple of solid games this year, give him a full pre-season under Fraser - different player in 2019).
Shumacher (my dark horse for break out year, I think if fit with a full pre-season, this guy will break into the side, and stay there)

Factor this type of development into those players, a full pre-season into Fasolo, Mckay, DeKonig, Marchbank, and Kerr, then you have the makings of real solid organic growth right across the park.

I don't expect a 'Dockers' game this year. I think those things will be eradicated, and, if so, if you look at the rest of our games (taking out the horror shows), you see a pretty competitive Carlton in most games next year.

I know it's only pre-season, but I think there is real cause for optimism for 2019. How may games will we win? It will probably come down to injuries on other lists, the organic improvement rate pre-round ten, and, how well they 'gell' or build 'cohesion' as Chris Judd often mentions. I would be happy with say two to three wins pre-round ten, which would set us up nicely for an overall of around seven to ten games for the year.

If that scenario played out, we could beat the Saints, Suns, Dockers, and probably the Bulldogs, give Geelong a run (we did this season), knock over the hawks, push the Pies, Richmond, and Eagles. I think we can also (dependent on injuries), knock over the Crows here, and, Port Adelaide. Down here I think we also a pretty good chance against the Lions (I rate them - quietly building up there), and will definitely push the Swans down here.

There is a lot to look forward to in my opinion.









 

If we have another 2 years like this season, we will fold!  It would be an absolute disaster.

A Collingwood supporter friend of mine said to me the other day, what's happened to Carlton, they just accept mediocrity now, they used to be ruthless and now they're timid.

I said injuries, bad luck, people leaving and he said yeah but the way they play, just not good enough - yet you supporters just continue to accept it. 

Not sure what else there is to do but accept and hope the right people are in!

Impossible not to be sceptical....

BB has really shown very little in terms of getting hi skill set (teaching mantra) stuff to convert into wins....

Looking back now - how did we win 7 and 6 games in 2016-17?

It looks like an over-achievement if anything.

I think Bolton can coach but just as important I think he's the right type of coach for the young guys on our list - very keen to make them good people as well as good players. A great sign is we haven't had any Griggs just yet. That pr!ck walked out on us when he was 21? Not that he was a great player but you invest a high draft pick on a bloke, do all the hard work to develop him, put up with his injuries and then he walks for no return.

Last year everything fell apart but that may be the artificially poor performance that helps us out for many years to come as it looks like it's coincided with a pretty handy draft to get the #1 pick. Walsh looks like a franchise player. Sometimes you can just get lucky - even if it's something as sh#tty as the year you win the wooden spoon.

Yes, agree with you here Paul, you cannot expect overnight success. Bolton was very reticent to let Gibbs go, as he knew what that really meant in terms of effect on the team, and, the players around him. You can't replace that without a like for like, which was know we couldn't get. Injuries, and the departure of experience left us devoid of coverage - all discussed here before.

Personally, the arrival of Andrew Fraser may be the greatest recruiting impact for next season in particular, and, I suspect the year after. This will shape the list, allow players to start to show their talent on the bigger stage. Who knows what a fit SPS, Williamson, and, Pickett may deliver. Those three in particular I highlight, as some serious organic development from them covers not only their set positions, but opens up new areas of the ground. If SPS, and Pickett were able to push into the midfield more, or play off half back, you will see other positional changes from other players, and this will really help us develop.

The players I expect to show some real organic development this year are:
Setterfield (if he gets a full pre-season, no reason he cannot be a very good player in his first year essentially - think Dow last year)
Cunningham (again, full pre-season, and who knows what he can deliver)
Williamson (if fit, he will play a lot this year)
Macreadie (the forgotten man in many ways, I rate this guy)
O'Brien (he has some talent, will be much better for another run, and a full pre-season)
Lang (full pre-season into him, and I think he will be starting 22 most weeks. He can play, showed that at Geelong, and in flashes last year)
Kennedy (he played a couple of solid games this year, give him a full pre-season under Fraser - different player in 2019).
Shumacher (my dark horse for break out year, I think if fit with a full pre-season, this guy will break into the side, and stay there)

Factor this type of development into those players, a full pre-season into Fasolo, Mckay, DeKonig, Marchbank, and Kerr, then you have the makings of real solid organic growth right across the park.

I don't expect a 'Dockers' game this year. I think those things will be eradicated, and, if so, if you look at the rest of our games (taking out the horror shows), you see a pretty competitive Carlton in most games next year.

I know it's only pre-season, but I think there is real cause for optimism for 2019. How may games will we win? It will probably come down to injuries on other lists, the organic improvement rate pre-round ten, and, how well they 'gell' or build 'cohesion' as Chris Judd often mentions. I would be happy with say two to three wins pre-round ten, which would set us up nicely for an overall of around seven to ten games for the year.

If that scenario played out, we could beat the Saints, Suns, Dockers, and probably the Bulldogs, give Geelong a run (we did this season), knock over the hawks, push the Pies, Richmond, and Eagles. I think we can also (dependent on injuries), knock over the Crows here, and, Port Adelaide. Down here I think we also a pretty good chance against the Lions (I rate them - quietly building up there), and will definitely push the Swans down here.

There is a lot to look forward to in my opinion.

I'm not too sure what next season will bring to be honest. If many things go our way, then yes, it could work out ok. But I still maintain that we are in that danger zone, where it only takes a couple of things to go pear shaped, and we will back to dismal days.

On Bolton, my position is that he hasn't had much to work with, so we can't really judge. He may or may not be any good, but I want to see what he can do with a stable and fit best 22, then judge him. He had zip to work with this season, and I maintain that not even Clarkson could have engineered anything better. Well, maybe an additional win or two, but that's it.

We wont have another two years like season 2018 (not so soon anyway).

That sort of season is a perfect storm for clubs who have gone heavily onto a youth setup who lost a couple of seasoned performers before a ball was kicked and had quite a few other seasoned performers playing under duress for most of the year.

Anyone who played less than 14 games for the year, and should have been a walk up start likely played at least 4 of those unfit, returning to fitness, or under an injury cloud to start with meaning they were not quite 100% but could give us 4 quarters of their presence.

Those players are:

Marc Murphy - 13 games
Matthew Kreuzer - 12 games
Sam Docherty - 0 games
Caleb Marchbank - 12 games
Darcy Lang - 11 games
Lachie Plowman - 13 games
Andrew Phillips - 5 games
Levi Casboult - 10 games

When the above reads like that, and a bloke like Lachie O'Brien plays 18 games and never really looked in his depth at the level, you have issues.  I exclude Paddy Dow from this discussion because he actually looked comfortable, but he played 20 games in his first season up.  It speaks volumes, when you have the following:

We had about 5 blokes that were reliable to be 4 quarter performers all season.

Patrick Cripps - 22 games and then day light

Ed Curnow - 21 games
Dale Thomas - 20 games
Kade Simpson - 21 games and should be playing less frequently at his age to give him a bit more longevity and maximise his career effectiveness a bit like the others use their stalwarts.

finally, Charlie Curnow playing 20 games, and still not quite a 4 quarter player (but a supreme talent).

It's not likely to happen again any time soon and the rest of our list is better able to cover their absences if it did happen again anyway because although we have shed some senior experienced bodies, the likes of Rowe, Lamb, Mullet, and O'Shea will not be of any great loss, or are not covered by the incumbant experienced heads of Fasolo, McGovern and Newman.  we are a tall defender short, but Macreadie should give us some extra cover, and we probably have enough medium sized players to cheat provided we rookie a taller player.


Aside from being alarmist, I don't see the point on dwelling on season 2018.  It showed us glimpses of what the youngsters are about and that we have some good young talent with bonafide AFL credentials, but thats about all we can gather.  Its not a litmus test of anything, not even the coaching staff.

If we have another 2 years like this season, we will fold!  It would be an absolute disaster.

A Collingwood supporter friend of mine said to me the other day, what's happened to Carlton, they just accept mediocrity now, they used to be ruthless and now they're timid.

I said injuries, bad luck, people leaving and he said yeah but the way they play, just not good enough - yet you supporters just continue to accept it. 

Not sure what else there is to do but accept and hope the right people are in!

You shouldn't confuse patience and understanding with accepting mediocrity - your Pies mate would be quite aware that his team was on a road to nowhere for 6 seasons before the Pies audit gave us the bearded, new age Nafe and his revamped football department.

No CFC supporter is happy with this season, but premature finger pointing and head hunting is hopefully a thing of the past.

Maybe Bolton should grow a beard ?

By the way guys, I think the ladder isn't a measure of anything but your performance in any one season.

It doesnt measure talent.

Its not an indication of anyone's ability.

It simply is the measure of how LAST season went.

Was that a fair result given how our season went?  Yep.  We had a shocking year, even though we had some good games, with the wheels well and truly falling off.  Largely due to player availability, rather than anything else.

Maybe Bolton should grow a beard ?

And become a Hipster??

We wont have another two years like season 2018 (not so soon anyway).

That sort of season is a perfect storm for clubs who have gone heavily onto a youth setup who lost a couple of seasoned performers before a ball was kicked and had quite a few other seasoned performers playing under duress for most of the year.

Anyone who played less than 14 games for the year, and should have been a walk up start likely played at least 4 of those unfit, returning to fitness, or under an injury cloud to start with meaning they were not quite 100% but could give us 4 quarters of their presence.

Those players are:

Marc Murphy - 13 games
Matthew Kreuzer - 12 games
Sam Docherty - 0 games
Caleb Marchbank - 12 games
Darcy Lang - 11 games
Lachie Plowman - 13 games
Andrew Phillips - 5 games
Levi Casboult - 10 games

When the above reads like that, and a bloke like Lachie O'Brien plays 18 games and never really looked in his depth at the level, you have issues.  I exclude Paddy Dow from this discussion because he actually looked comfortable, but he played 20 games in his first season up.  It speaks volumes, when you have the following:

We had about 5 blokes that were reliable to be 4 quarter performers all season.

Patrick Cripps - 22 games and then day light

Ed Curnow - 21 games
Dale Thomas - 20 games
Kade Simpson - 21 games and should be playing less frequently at his age to give him a bit more longevity and maximise his career effectiveness a bit like the others use their stalwarts.

finally, Charlie Curnow playing 20 games, and still not quite a 4 quarter player (but a supreme talent).

It's not likely to happen again any time soon and the rest of our list is better able to cover their absences if it did happen again anyway because although we have shed some senior experienced bodies, the likes of Rowe, Lamb, Mullet, and O'Shea will not be of any great loss, or are not covered by the incumbant experienced heads of Fasolo, McGovern and Newman.  we are a tall defender short, but Macreadie should give us some extra cover, and we probably have enough medium sized players to cheat provided we rookie a taller player.


Aside from being alarmist, I don't see the point on dwelling on season 2018.  It showed us glimpses of what the youngsters are about and that we have some good young talent with bonafide AFL credentials, but thats about all we can gather.  Its not a litmus test of anything, not even the coaching staff.

Kennedy only played 12
Williamson, who I rate highly played 0

We're so heavily invested in the 2015 and 2016 drafts. Given that by next year it will be 3-4 years down the track it will be interesting to see how this crop improves next season:

2015
1. Weitering
10. McKay
12. Curnow
13. Kennedy
23. Cunningham

2016
5. Setterfield
6. Samo
27. Fisher

Those 8 guys have to lead the charge up the ladder. They are what we invested all our available trade / draft energy in. Thus far the mids as a group have been pretty underwhelming. They've got to push us back up the ladder starting in 2019.

Kennedy only played 12
Williamson, who I rate highly played 0

IT supports my point, but both of them are not walk up starts at AFL level at this stage (at least as far as I was concerned).

The blokes I was talking about are the sort that could realistically expect to get a game for any club in the AFL.

We're so heavily invested in the 2015 and 2016 drafts. Given that by next year it will be 3-4 years down the track it will be interesting to see how this crop improves next season:

2015
1. Weitering
10. McKay
12. Curnow
13. Kennedy
23. Cunningham

2016
5. Setterfield
6. Samo
27. Fisher

Those 8 guys have to lead the charge up the ladder. They are what we invested all our available trade / draft energy in. Thus far the mids as a group have been pretty underwhelming. They've got to push us back up the ladder starting in 2019.

What is your opinion on JSOS from 2015 Draft Jeza?

IT supports my point, but both of them are not walk up starts at AFL level at this stage (at least as far as I was concerned).

The blokes I was talking about are the sort that could realistically expect to get a game for any club in the AFL.

Both (leaving injury aside), and Kennedy, in particular presently, are very much walk up starts....in our team, at least.

Kennedy only played 12
Williamson, who I rate highly played 0

And when Kennedy played, most games he clearly was far from right....

Remembering, he was injured early in Q2 against the Tigers and then (in my opinion, returned far too soon.....

And when Kennedy played, most games he clearly was far from right....

Remembering, he was injured early in Q2 against the Tigers and then (in my opinion, returned far too soon.....

Yep, IMHO bar Docherty, those two, if fit, will impact CFC in 2019 more than any others on that list

Kennedy is an unknown still in my opinion, he's promised like Garlett or Pickett but hardly delivered any more in real terms.

Williamson has shown and delivered far more already, and he has done so as a dead set beginner, but if he cannot get his body right he will be one of those very sad stories of the coodabeen variety!

Actually, Williamson and Weitering are in a similar boat, they have shown in their first seasons so much, but struggled to repeat it as yet!

IT supports my point, but both of them are not walk up starts at AFL level at this stage (at least as far as I was concerned).

The blokes I was talking about are the sort that could realistically expect to get a game for any club in the AFL.

Kennedy will be straight in, that in no doubt. Late season footy was very good even though he was never fit. Just at his fittest late in the year. It was an issue though given we had to send him off for surgery early.

I'm thinking Williamson will be straight in too.

What is your opinion on JSOS from 2015 Draft Jeza?

Well above average for a pick 60ish who is still only 20.

I find the criticism of him delusional in the extreme - not that I think he's a guaranteed success. But again - lets have just a little perspective. 20 years old / pick 60ish.

To me he looks like a future Mark Lecras type - although I think he'll be a much better contested / high mark than Lecras. Already is probably.

I only left guys like him out my previous post because we've traded out experienced players to get access to high draft picks. Those are the ones I'm looking at to drive us up the ladder as of now.

Two words that will ensure improvement in 2019

STRONG LEADERSHIP

(Cripps and Docherty will not accept mediocre bull$hit.

To me he looks like a future Mark Lecras type - although I think he'll be a much better contested / high mark than Lecras. Already is probably.

That was Jack Silvagni that CJD was talking about wasn't it, did I miss an edit? :o

The only HFF or SF on our list that comes close to Mark LeCras is ....................... none that I can see!

Two words that will ensure improvement in 2019

STRONG LEADERSHIP

(Cripps and Docherty will not accept mediocre bull$hit.

Bloody oath. Murphy simply wasn't a leader....not his fault, just the way it is....

Well above average for a pick 60ish who is still only 20.

I find the criticism of him delusional in the extreme - not that I think he's a guaranteed success. But again - lets have just a little perspective. 20 years old / pick 60ish.

To me he looks like a future Mark Lecras type - although I think he'll be a much better contested / high mark than Lecras. Already is probably.

I only left guys like him out my previous post because we've traded out experienced players to get access to high draft picks. Those are the ones I'm looking at to drive us up the ladder as of now.

What I like about Jack is that he is a footballer first and foremost.  He may lack the athleticism of many, but I think that he more than makes up for that with his ability to get in the right positions and to generally use the ball well when he gets it.

He certainly has a way to go to cement a spot in the 22 but he certainly has the football ability to do so.

What I like about Jack is that he is a footballer first and foremost.  He may lack the athleticism of many, but I think that he more than makes up for that with his ability to get in the right positions and to generally use the ball well when he gets it.

He certainly has a way to go to cement a spot in the 22 but he certainly has the football ability to do so.

x10.

What I like about Jack is that he is a footballer first and foremost.  He may lack the athleticism of many, but I think that he more than makes up for that with his ability to get in the right positions and to generally use the ball well when he gets it.

He certainly has a way to go to cement a spot in the 22 but he certainly has the football ability to do so.

Agree. Jack has a huge heart and will always give his all. I have a huge amount of time for him and we desperately need players with this level of commitment. I hope like hell he can be successful!

Any of our under 21's -22's could develop into really good footballers.
I think we sometimes lose sight of that because just at the moment there are so many of them.
Whereas in the past we were making calls on mid 20 age players, and that was fair.....now it's a much younger group.

Agree. Jack has a huge heart and will always give his all. I have a huge amount of time for him and we desperately need players with this level of commitment. I hope like hell he can be successful!

I also hope he'll succeed, but I'm far from convinced.

We've just got to get him to 100 games for the father /son ;) :D

We've just got to get him to 100 games for the father /son ;) :D

Either him, Ben, or Tom. Preferably all 4. Maximises our chances of 4 generations of Silvagni.

That was Jack Silvagni that CJD was talking about wasn't it, did I miss an edit? :o

The only HFF or SF on our list that comes close to Mark LeCras is ....................... none that I can see!

So you don't see any similarities between Jack and Lecras?

Marking player, mid sized, play HFF, not overly quick but a good natural footballer?

No similarity at all?

Jack's quite a bit taller I admit. Incidentally by the time Lecras was 20 he'd kicked 7 goals. Jack 32.

Perspective.

The fact that Lecras and Jack may share a few superficial characteristics does not in any way make them comparable players.

We've just got to get him to 100 games for the father /son ;) :D

Isn't he dating that rather (very) cute lady who used to do the weekly CFC videos?

LeCras and JSOS comparable?   Yes,  they are both human with one X chromosome,  as far as footballers they're different species.

The fact that Lecras and Jack may share a few superficial characteristics does not in any way make them comparable players.

Exactly Paul!

At the same age Le Cras hadn’t achieved anywhere near what Jack has  ;)

Seriously though, I think Jeza has come up with a pretty good comparison and we’ll just have to wait for a season or two for Jack to go past Le Cras at his peak.

Exactly Paul!

At the same age Le Cras hadn’t achieved anywhere near what Jack has  ;)

Seriously though, I think Jeza has come up with a pretty good comparison and we’ll just have to wait for a season or two for Jack to go past Le Cras at his peak.

I simply don't see it. Jack is a C grader - good heart and brain, but that's not enough - terrible athleticism, ordinary set shot, average general skills. If he was cut from our list I can't see any other team selecting him.

I realise they're a decade apart, but at this point LeCras has been AA, a WCE B+F winner, and has won the Eagles goal kicking twice, kicking 50+ and 60+ goals in the process. I don't see Jack getting anywhere near that, but I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.

I simply don't see it. Jack is a C grader - good heart and brain, but that's not enough - terrible athleticism, ordinary set shot, average general skills. If he was cut from our list I can't see any other team selecting him.

I realise they're a decade apart, but at this point LeCras has been AA, a WCE B+F winner, and has won the Eagles goal kicking twice, kicking 50+ and 60+ goals in the process. I don't see Jack getting anywhere near that, but I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.

That is BS Paul.

Jack is not worthy of any rating presently....

Judge hin when's he's 22?

Kouta was nothing till he was 22.....

SOS? Surely someone knows? i gather he took time too?

To his credit Jack is desperately trying to improve his athleticism, by hiring a sprint coach etc.   Got to give him full marks for that.

That is BS Paul.

Jack is not worthy of any rating presently....

Judge hin when's he's 22?

Kouta was nothing till he was 22.....

SOS? Surely someone knows? i gather he took time too?

Players get judged at every stage of their career, especially on supporter forums. I stand by my current assessment, and will be more than happy to say I got it wrong, should it come to that.

Personally, the arrival of Andrew Fraser may be the greatest recruiting impact for next season

You mean Andrew Russell and not the convicted drug trafficking layer ;D ;D ;D

That is BS Paul.

Jack is not worthy of any rating presently....

Judge hin when's he's 22?

Kouta was nothing till he was 22.....

SOS? Surely someone knows? i gather he took time too?

re SOS(s)
At this stage of their careers (age wise) SOS had been dropped for a (losing) grand final, played in a (winning) grand final and managed 45 games. (5 finals)
At the same stage, SOJ, has played 43 games (zero finals)

How is it  we compare Mark LeCras and Jack Silvagni?......one is a small forward and the other plays mainly as a 3rd tall forward..

LeCras is a clever small to mid forward(182cm) who was a great kick for goal and had some tricks, also was very good over head for his size...
Jack is a 3rd tall forward around the McGovern size who has been tried as a tall onballer and a half back flanker..
IMO two different players, Jack is honest, tries hard but now McGovern has arrived is out of a job..

Because he is the son of a legendary player and now list manager he will get extra opportunities to find a position but has his work cut out unless
we have massive injuries. Setterfield is the new tall mid and we have half back flankers on tap now with Docherty, Williamson and Newman back/onboard.

Jack is jack of all trades but master of none unfortunately....he will become a delist candidate down the track given we are weeding out the spuds and will have less options
to chop if things go to plan, However the rookie list will probably be his saviour as I dont see his father or the club sending him on his way in a undignified manner...
 

How is it  we compare Mark LeCras and Jack Silvagni?......one is a small forward and the other plays mainly as a 3rd tall forward..

LeCras is a clever small to mid forward(182cm) who was a great kick for goal and had some tricks, also was very good over head for his size...
Jack is a 3rd tall forward around the McGovern size who has been tried as a tall onballer and a half back flanker..
IMO two different players, Jack is honest, tries hard but now McGovern has arrived is out of a job..

Because he is the son of a legendary player and now list manager he will get extra opportunities to find a position but has his work cut out unless
we have massive injuries. Setterfield is the new tall mid and we have half back flankers on tap now with Docherty, Williamson and Newman back/onboard.

Jack is jack of all trades but master of none unfortunately....he will become a delist candidate down the track given we are weeding out the spuds and will have less options
to chop if things go to plan, However the rookie list will probably be his saviour as I dont see his father or the club sending him on his way in a undignified manner...

A very fair summation EB, up to young Jack to find his spot (and earn it) - or be chopped....

How is it  we compare Mark LeCras and Jack Silvagni?......one is a small forward and the other plays mainly as a 3rd tall forward..

LeCras is a clever small to mid forward(182cm) who was a great kick for goal and had some tricks, also was very good over head for his size...
Jack is a 3rd tall forward around the McGovern size who has been tried as a tall onballer and a half back flanker..
IMO two different players, Jack is honest, tries hard but now McGovern has arrived is out of a job..

Because he is the son of a legendary player and now list manager he will get extra opportunities to find a position but has his work cut out unless
we have massive injuries. Setterfield is the new tall mid and we have half back flankers on tap now with Docherty, Williamson and Newman back/onboard.

Jack is jack of all trades but master of none unfortunately....he will become a delist candidate down the track given we are weeding out the spuds and will have less options
to chop if things go to plan, However the rookie list will probably be his saviour as I dont see his father or the club sending him on his way in a undignified manner...

Really? Eddie Betts is a small forward. Lecras is a lead up player, not overly quick with good hands and a good mark for his side. Plays taller than his cm.

You make good points about McGovern's arrival - last year Jack showed he is probably a HFF at the moment and that's it. He didn't do well in any of the other positions he was tried in and as we know the whole forward line struggled from lack of service.

The year before that was an outstanding year for a 19 year old forward pocket.

We won't know until he's 23 and filled out. His dad did start off built like a rake and he was massive by the end.

Lecras is a lead up player, not overly quick with good hands and a good mark for his side. Plays taller than his cm.

That's a fair summation, but relative to SoJ LeCras is lightning. I think you could clone LeCras and strap them together three legged race style and they would still have young SoJ covered.

But I hope this rumoured sprint training does the job, because I fear SoJ's first class football brain and unquestionable work ethic just won't be enough!

IT supports my point, but both of them are not walk up starts at AFL level at this stage (at least as far as I was concerned).

The blokes I was talking about are the sort that could realistically expect to get a game for any club in the AFL.

It was meant to support your point.
None of Lang, Phillips or Casboult are likely to get a game with any other side.
Kennedy played 16 games in the giants midfield 2 years ago.
Williamson played almost a full year as our youngest listed player
They’re both easily on that list

It was meant to support your point.
None of Lang, Phillips or Casboult are likely to get a game with any other side.
Kennedy played 16 games in the giants midfield 2 years ago.
Williamson played almost a full year as our youngest listed player
They’re both easily on that list

Don't under estimate Lang JH but it's 2019 or nothin for him....

How is it  we compare Mark LeCras and Jack Silvagni?......one is a small forward and the other plays mainly as a 3rd tall forward..

LeCras is a clever small to mid forward(182cm) who was a great kick for goal and had some tricks, also was very good over head for his size...
Jack is a 3rd tall forward around the McGovern size who has been tried as a tall onballer and a half back flanker..
IMO two different players, Jack is honest, tries hard but now McGovern has arrived is out of a job..

Because he is the son of a legendary player and now list manager he will get extra opportunities to find a position but has his work cut out unless
we have massive injuries. Setterfield is the new tall mid and we have half back flankers on tap now with Docherty, Williamson and Newman back/onboard.

Jack is jack of all trades but master of none unfortunately....he will become a delist candidate down the track given we are weeding out the spuds and will have less options
to chop if things go to plan, However the rookie list will probably be his saviour as I dont see his father or the club sending him on his way in a undignified manner...

You can't be talking about SOJ because he simply doesn't play as a tall forward of any description.  He spent a lot of 2018 in defence and in the midfield but, when he was in the forward line, his role is more of a small to medium forward.  Yes, he does take the odd contested mark but his strengths as a forward are more about getting into space and judging the fall of the ball. 

I reckon Jeza's comparison with Le Cras is a worthwhile exercise and it's interesting to compare their stats at the same age; SOJ just pips Le Cras  :)

You can't be talking about SOJ because he simply doesn't play as a tall forward of any description.  He spent a lot of 2018 in defence and in the midfield but, when he was in the forward line, his role is more of a small to medium forward.  Yes, he does take the odd contested mark but his strengths as a forward are more about getting into space and judging the fall of the ball. 

I reckon Jeza's comparison with Le Cras is a worthwhile exercise and it's interesting to compare their stats at the same age; SOJ just pips Le Cras  :)

DJ.....Lecras 182cm/82kg...Jack 191cm/89kg...............I'm getting old but my maths is still ok ;)  Jack IMO is a 3rd tall forward and has no resemblance to a small forward...
Jack is actually 1cm taller than McGovern, if he plays as a small forward he would be the slowest small forward on this planet or any other planet.

Alex Fasalo is your Mark Lecras comparison player 181cm/84kg......good overhead, can snap/crumb a goal and leads well...plays the same way IMO.....

Dont get me wrong...I like Jack, think he has handled himself well and has a fair weight of expectation to carry around which is a tough gig for a young kid...but he wasnt pick 53 for nothing.....his TAC form was reasonable without being fantastic and he has been handy at senior level at times but as the list improves and we get some better talented kids in the team he will struggle to keep a place as he has his limitations.
Charlie, McGovern, Harry, Fazzy boy.........dont see room for Jack except as backup.....
It shows the list is improving which is a good sign but there has to be some casualties and Jack is lucky he will get more opportunities than most but unless he improves his skills, pace and can find a role he can make his own I cant see him in the senior team unless we get another massive injury list in 2019...ditto for his mate Cuningham....
If you asked most on this forum to pick a best 22 I think you would find most couldnt find a spot for Jack......?

DJ.....Lecras 182cm/82kg...Jack 191cm/89kg...............I'm getting old but my maths is still ok ;)  Jack IMO is a 3rd tall forward and has no resemblance to a small forward...
Jack is actually 1cm taller than McGovern, if he plays as a small forward he would be the slowest small forward on this planet or any other planet.

Alex Fasalo is your Mark Lecras comparison player 181cm/84kg......good overhead, can snap/crumb a goal and leads well...plays the same way IMO.....

Dont get me wrong...I like Jack, think he has handled himself well and has a fair weight of expectation to carry around which is a tough gig for a young kid...but he wasnt pick 53 for nothing.....his TAC form was reasonable without being fantastic and he has been handy at senior level at times but as the list improves and we get some better talented kids in the team he will struggle to keep a place as he has his limitations.
Charlie, McGovern, Harry, Fazzy boy.........dont see room for Jack except as backup.....
It shows the list is improving which is a good sign but there has to be some casualties and Jack is lucky he will get more opportunities than most but unless he improves his skills, pace and can find a role he can make his own I cant see him in the senior team unless we get another massive injury list in 2019...ditto for his mate Cuningham....
If you asked most on this forum to pick a best 22 I think you would find most couldnt find a spot for Jack......?

I know that Jack and McGovern are around the same size but they don't play the same way.  McGovern plays like a genuine tall and Jack is an opportunist ... like LeCras, but with extra size.

I agree that he will struggle to get a game unless he can settle into a role that he can do better than anyone else.  His versatility is a strength but he has to find a way to compensate for his lack of pace and make sure that his kicking for goal is spot on.

DJ.....Lecras 182cm/82kg...Jack 191cm/89kg...............I'm getting old but my maths is still ok ;)  Jack IMO is a 3rd tall forward and has no resemblance to a small forward...
Jack is actually 1cm taller than McGovern, if he plays as a small forward he would be the slowest small forward on this planet or any other planet.

Alex Fasalo is your Mark Lecras comparison player 181cm/84kg......good overhead, can snap/crumb a goal and leads well...plays the same way IMO.....

Dont get me wrong...I like Jack, think he has handled himself well and has a fair weight of expectation to carry around which is a tough gig for a young kid...but he wasnt pick 53 for nothing.....his TAC form was reasonable without being fantastic and he has been handy at senior level at times but as the list improves and we get some better talented kids in the team he will struggle to keep a place as he has his limitations.
Charlie, McGovern, Harry, Fazzy boy.........dont see room for Jack except as backup.....
It shows the list is improving which is a good sign but there has to be some casualties and Jack is lucky he will get more opportunities than most but unless he improves his skills, pace and can find a role he can make his own I cant see him in the senior team unless we get another massive injury list in 2019...ditto for his mate Cuningham....
If you asked most on this forum to pick a best 22 I think you would find most couldnt find a spot for Jack......?

I agree - I wouldn't have Jack in my best 22 at the minute. His form was sketchy last year. Uncharacteristic fumbles and seemed to second-guess himself a fair bit. 20 years old though so drawing conclusions one way or another is madness.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on Lecras - I did point out quite early on Jack was taller but plays in a similar style. Lecras doesn't really play a small crumbing forward role like an Eddie / Garlett if you ask me. I mean - he bears no resemblance to that type of player at all - but as I say - we'll agree to disagree.

AFL aren't banking on it  going by the fixture.

LeCras is definitely an opportunistic forward and very dangerous near goal, but he is nothing like the classic small fast fwd such as Eddie. I don't know where Jack fits in here - LeCras wouldn't have been someone I would have thought of comparing him to that's for sure.

Hopefully this works out as it says here.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2018/11/02/silvagni-ranked-setterfield-best-in-draft-class-says-blues-ceo/

Well we know we lost him to an academy bid, so no doubt we had intended to take him!

I actually think he and Newman will be the best of our recruits.

Hopefully this works out as it says here.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2018/11/02/silvagni-ranked-setterfield-best-in-draft-class-says-blues-ceo/

Hope so too.... but if SOS rated him no1 - why did he take taranto ahead of him??

He didn't, he bid on him at 6, GWS matched then he picked SPS

He didn't, he bid on him at 6, GWS matched then he picked SPS

ahhh - i was thinking sos was GWS list manager in '16!!!!!   of course he wasnt!

Looking forward to seeing Setterfield get an injury free run at it. SOS is a pretty good judge so if he had him at 1 he must be a handy player. We cant have enough young midfielders on the list.

Looking forward to seeing Setterfield get an injury free run at it. SOS is a pretty good judge so if he had him at 1 he must be a handy player. We cant have enough young midfielders on the list.

Agree...be good to be able to rest Cripps and not lose anything in the clearances when he isnt there, at the moment as soon as Cripps goes forward or off the ground
we get slaughtered around the ball. Think I read we only had two players in the top 100 for clearances and two in the top one hundred for contested possessions ...Cripps and Ed Curnow in both categories.
Not going to win too many games with those stats......so Setterfield and Kennedy need to play their part and get in the top 100 in both those areas
Melbourne had eight players in the top 100 for contested ball, Collingwood nine, West Coast seven, Richmond seven, ....

Its not rocket science...we dont have enough players putting the head over the ball or playing 100 minutes of contested footy......think we were last in forward entries too.....
No surprise either that Cripps and Ed Curnow lead in these areas of us......they give you 100 minutes of effort each week....Ed can butcher the footy but he always gives you effort...
If we can get 5 players in the top 100 of those key two areas ie Clearances/Contested we win games and become competitive again.....

The Bomber would have picked him up at number 1 but didn't want the embarrassment of GWS taking him.

Agree...be good to be able to rest Cripps and not lose anything in the clearances when he isnt there, at the moment as soon as Cripps goes forward or off the ground
we get slaughtered around the ball. Think I read we only had two players in the top 100 for clearances and two in the top one hundred for contested possessions ...Cripps and Ed Curnow in both categories.
Not going to win too many games with those stats......so Setterfield and Kennedy need to play their part and get in the top 100 in both those areas
Melbourne had eight players in the top 100 for contested ball, Collingwood nine, West Coast seven, Richmond seven, ....

Its not rocket science...we dont have enough players putting the head over the ball or playing 100 minutes of contested footy......think we were last in forward entries too.....
No surprise either that Cripps and Ed Curnow lead in these areas of us......they give you 100 minutes of effort each week....Ed can butcher the footy but he always gives you effort...
If we can get 5 players in the top 100 of those key two areas ie Clearances/Contested we win games and become competitive again.....

Three players in the top 100 for contested possessions; Cripps, Curnow and Kreuzer.  Five players in the top 100 for clearances; Cripps, Curnow, Kreuzer, Fisher and Murphy.

Your point is well made though EB, we need more blokes winning contests if we are to improve ... and we need Kreuzer and Murphy to stay on the park.

Any exactly why a Mick Barlow type is so, so necessary.

Any exactly why a Mick Barlow type is so, so necessary.

Barlow didn’t play enough games to make the player rankings but his averages from his three games has him well outside the top 100 for clearances.  His 14 contested possessions against Geelong bumps his average up to around the 50 mark.  Without that effort, he would be outside the top 100.

It’s interesting that Gold Coast virtually refused to play Barlow given his performances in the NEAFL.  They mustn’t have an elite midfielder that needs support  ;)

I doubt whether there will be many rejects with top 100 stats and I would prefer to see us demanding that our youngsters step up.

Interestingly, Gibbs is well inside the top 50 for contested possessions and clearances - areas where I didn’t think he’d be missed.

Barlow didn’t play enough games to make the player rankings but his averages from his three games has him well outside the top 100 for clearances.  His 14 contested possessions against Geelong bumps his average up to around the 50 mark.  Without that effort, he would be outside the top 100.

It’s interesting that Gold Coast virtually refused to play Barlow given his performances in the NEAFL.  They mustn’t have an elite midfielder that needs support  ;)

I doubt whether there will be many rejects with top 100 stats and I would prefer to see us demanding that our youngsters step up.

Interestingly, Gibbs is well inside the top 50 for contested possessions and clearances - areas where I didn’t think he’d be missed.

Dew seems to have an issue with a few players, wouldnt play Barlow, didnt like Lyons either...both are great contested ball winners........think the season before Lyons was top ten in the comp for clearances...then gets delisted.... ???

Like I said, he nicked the pies from the warmer.

Like I said, he nicked the pies from the warmer.

;D ;D