Carlton Supporters Club

Social Club => Blah-Blah Bar => Topic started by: Baggers on July 22, 2020, 07:31:26 pm

Title: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 22, 2020, 07:31:26 pm
I wanted to comment on something and found no thread that was suitable and thought perhaps we need a thread for general, random discussion... ones that cannot and do not fit under any other heading/thread.

Just wanted to say how much I was enjoying the Zac D and Ross L discussions on the AFL website. Really good value and deeply authentic communications between the two. Insightful.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 22, 2020, 09:02:24 pm
I wanted to comment on something and found no thread that was suitable and thought perhaps we need a thread for general, random discussion... ones that cannot and do not fit under any other heading/thread.

Just wanted to say how much I was enjoying the Zac D and Ross L discussions on the AFL website. Really good value and deeply authentic communications between the two. Insightful.
Havent seen it, will go and check it out.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 22, 2020, 09:53:15 pm
I wanted to comment on something and found no thread that was suitable and thought perhaps we need a thread for general, random discussion... ones that cannot and do not fit under any other heading/thread.

Just wanted to say how much I was enjoying the Zac D and Ross L discussions on the AFL website. Really good value and deeply authentic communications between the two. Insightful.
He's a good man Ross Lyon, often misjudged I reckon. Is young Zac still with the Blues?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 23, 2020, 07:43:02 am
I hope this is worthy of this thread, but I have a question. What do people think is the next "style" of football going to look like? We went from the man on man in a position to things like Terry's Flood, Pagan's Paddock, Clarko's Cluster to now morphing into, in my view, glorified circle work. So whats next? Will it go back full circle? Will they drop 2 and go to 16 on the ground? Or is the Big M Little League style of 36 players chasing the agot here to stay?
Thoughts?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 23, 2020, 07:58:32 am
After the recent success trialling 16 on the ground in other comps, I suspect 16 a side in inevitable. It was fine for VFA, it'll be fine for AFL.

My only question is, will that mean on 20 a side on match day, or will they increase the bench to 6? I suspect they'll increase the bench to 6, but two of the six will be substitutes not interchange. If that happens I think you'll find a shift in the selection mix.

I'd much rather see 16 a side, than some of the other more radical things they are unofficially fiddling with at the moment. Like the holding the ball rubbish.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on July 23, 2020, 08:51:05 am
I wanted to comment on something and found no thread that was suitable and thought perhaps we need a thread for general, random discussion... ones that cannot and do not fit under any other heading/thread.

Just wanted to say how much I was enjoying the Zac D and Ross L discussions on the AFL website. Really good value and deeply authentic communications between the two. Insightful.

Baggers you could start a thread on a topic if a suitable one doesn't already exist?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 23, 2020, 08:56:21 am
Baggers you could start a thread on a topic if a suitable one doesn't already exist?
But I like the idea of a thread where you can talk about anything and stray off topic without fear of persecution. :D  ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on July 23, 2020, 09:05:28 am
16 a side BUT in such a fast paced game, it will place an immense strain on CHFs and CHBs alone.  Good thing?  Bad thing?  Got no idea.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on July 23, 2020, 09:15:09 am
But I like the idea of a thread where you can talk about anything and stray off topic without fear of persecution. :D  ;)
Wouldn't the logical conclusion of that be that there would be only one thread on this site? Referencing any particular issue and following the debate would be much more difficult if not impossible ? 🤯
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 23, 2020, 09:19:00 am
Wouldn't the logical conclusion of that be that there would be only one thread on this site? Referencing any particular issue and following the debate would be much more difficult if not impossible ? 🤯
Logic will not be tolerated here.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on July 23, 2020, 10:08:56 am
While I don't mind a "whatever comes into your mind" type of thread as Cookie said the problem will be following a topic.

I was going to use the thread to mention that I think Nick Riewoldt is quickly becoming my favourite footy media guy. It sort of led on from Baggers initial post.
But already we've moved on to a different discussion regarding the future of the game.
Now I reckon both these topics  "Media and Future of the game" are worthy of their own thread and make following that discussion easier.
Not only that, it gives a greater opportunity to get into a topic in depth.

The question is ...What do we use a General Discussion thread for....I've seen them work quite well on other sites?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 23, 2020, 10:11:20 am
Wouldn't the logical conclusion of that be that there would be only one thread on this site? Referencing any particular issue and following the debate would be much more difficult if not impossible ? 🤯

I reckon that if there isn't a thread already and one became apparent in this thread then it'd probably get a life of its own and subsequently its own thread. I guess this is a kind of experiment, a place for random thoughts or observations or comments that don't have an obvious home elsewhere.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 23, 2020, 10:22:58 am
While I don't mind a "whatever comes into your mind" type of thread as Cookie said the problem will be following a topic.

I was going to use the thread to mention that I think Nick Riewoldt is quickly becoming my favourite footy media guy. It sort of led on from Baggers initial post.
But already we've moved on to a different discussion regarding the future of the game.
Now I reckon both these topics  "Media and Future of the game" are worthy of their own thread and make following that discussion easier.
Not only that, it gives a greater opportunity to get into a topic in depth.

The question is ...What do we use a General Discussion thread for....I've seen them work quite well on other sites?

Define general discussion please?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on July 23, 2020, 10:36:47 am
Define general discussion please?

"What I did on the Holidays"
Basically just everyday thoughts. Random observations. "Has anyone else noticed....."
Things that wouldn't necessarily command a thread that would go for more than a page or two.



Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 23, 2020, 05:19:00 pm
"What I did on the Holidays"
Basically just everyday thoughts. Random observations. "Has anyone else noticed....."
Things that wouldn't necessarily command a thread that would go for more than a page or two.




Roger that
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 24, 2020, 08:45:34 am
Anyone else catch Yokayi Footy & Eddie on the AFL's website?

Great stuff.

https://www.afl.com.au/video/468683/yokayi-footy-betts-hopes-smoking-ceremony-will-help-shake-loss?videoId=468683&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1595534400001
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 24, 2020, 09:08:29 am
Anyone else catch Yokayi Footy & Eddie on the AFL's website?

Great stuff.

https://www.afl.com.au/video/468683/yokayi-footy-betts-hopes-smoking-ceremony-will-help-shake-loss?videoId=468683&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1595534400001

Awesome. Such a wonderful culture and IMO its just not taught and shared enough in our schools. I want to learn more about it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 25, 2020, 08:40:04 am
I saw a video of Wild Cherry singing "Play that funky music white boy" for the first time this morning, I didnt realise they were were white!! I always thought that song was by an African American band.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 25, 2020, 09:04:30 am
I saw a video of Wild Cherry singing "Play that funky music white boy" for the first time this morning, I didnt realise they were were white!! I always thought that song was by an African American band.

One of my favourite all time bands GTC (along with the Doobies, Chicago, Steely Dan, Journey, ELO, etc) and as a young radio jock in Whyalla SA it was one of the first songs I played. Rob Parissi founded Wild Cherry and is the lead singer/songwriter. Folks rocked up to their first concert and were shocked to see they were white boys (like when they first saw Elvis was white ...and the Righteous Bros. were white.. sorry, I'm getting carried away). They released about 4 or so albums, each one brilliant. Rob Parissi was a huge talent and still performs today and raises money for philanthropic causes.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 25, 2020, 09:34:33 am
I saw a video of Wild Cherry singing "Play that funky music white boy" for the first time this morning, I didnt realise they were were white!! I always thought that song was by an African American band.

News to me too.....and the missus.

 :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 25, 2020, 10:40:32 am
I saw a video of Wild Cherry singing "Play that funky music white boy" for the first time this morning, I didnt realise they were were white!! I always thought that song was by an African American band.
 
https://youtu.be/SFiv9M577a4
Just keep in mind, once you watch this video, the song will sound different forever more!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 25, 2020, 11:08:06 am

https://youtu.be/SFiv9M577a4
Just keep in mind, once you watch this video, the song will sound different forever more!

And introduced by Helen Reddy!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 25, 2020, 12:47:28 pm
One of my favourite all time bands GTC (along with the Doobies, Chicago, Steely Dan, Journey, ELO, etc) and as a young radio jock in Whyalla SA it was one of the first songs I played. Rob Parissi founded Wild Cherry and is the lead singer/songwriter. Folks rocked up to their first concert and were shocked to see they were white boys (like when they first saw Elvis was white ...and the Righteous Bros. were white.. sorry, I'm getting carried away). They released about 4 or so albums, each one brilliant. Rob Parissi was a huge talent and still performs today and raises money for philanthropic causes.
Cheers for that, you learn something every day.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: RiverRat on July 25, 2020, 07:24:33 pm
I wanted to comment on something and found no thread that was suitable and thought perhaps we need a thread for general, random discussion... ones that cannot and do not fit under any other heading/thread.

Just wanted to say how much I was enjoying the Zac D and Ross L discussions on the AFL website. Really good value and deeply authentic communications between the two. Insightful.

You could also start a thread about pies you have enjoyed at the footy - could be plenty to offer during this period of abstinence.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 25, 2020, 07:29:32 pm
You could also start a thread about pies you have enjoyed at the footy - could be plenty to offer during this period of abstinence.

😂 😂 Ah, yes, the memories... they're just not the same at home in front of the teev. Can't wait for next season!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: RiverRat on July 25, 2020, 07:36:53 pm
😂 😂 Ah, yes, the memories... they're just not the same at home in front of the teev. Can't wait for next season!

I look forward to catching up IF Dan ever lets us go to the footy again.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 26, 2020, 01:15:02 pm
Anyone else's blood boil when you see these parasite hippy fwits giving coppers grief when they are trying to enforce covid rules? These coppers are saints, I'd see red and start swinging. I mean seriously, that silly mole who said to the copper who was arresting her "I dont consent to being arrested" and "I will sue you for armed kidnapping" ;D  ;D Did someone leave the asylum doors open? And today I watched an hour long video of a fwit truck driver who didnt have the Queensland border pass so he decided ihe hadnt committed a crime and drove off. He got pulled over again, gave the copper grief, reinforcements came, end result? Truck was unregistered, drivers licence was expired. He agreed to fill out a border pass online, got fined for the other offences, WTF was the point? The imbecile then posted on FB the whole thing which he recorded, lets just say the comments werent favourable ;D  ;D Is it me? Am I the fwit?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on July 26, 2020, 01:40:21 pm
Anyone else's blood boil when you see these parasite hippy fwits giving coppers grief when they are trying to enforce covid rules? These coppers are saints, I'd see red and start swinging. I mean seriously, that silly mole who said to the copper who was arresting her "I dont consent to being arrested" and "I will sue you for armed kidnapping" ;D  ;D Did someone leave the asylum doors open? And today I watched an hour long video of a fwit truck driver who didnt have the Queensland border pass so he decided ihe hadnt committed a crime and drove off. He got pulled over again, gave the copper grief, reinforcements came, end result? Truck was unregistered, drivers licence was expired. He agreed to fill out a border pass online, got fined for the other offences, WTF was the point? The imbecile then posted on FB the whole thing which he recorded, lets just say the comments werent favourable ;D  ;D Is it me? Am I the fwit?

It's not you...it's them.
Funny thing is these dills post their  'look at me defiance ' on facebook and then get absolutely slayed in the comments and end up having to take their 'idiocy' down.
Tolerance to these idiots will be pretty low as this thing continues.
They may be actually putting themselves at physical risk.
As one of the doctors said this week he'd like to take them on a stroll through an ICU section.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on July 26, 2020, 02:10:07 pm
I mean seriously, that silly mole who said to the copper who was arresting her "I dont consent to being arrested" and "I will sue you for armed kidnapping"

As I understand it, that smart a**e is facing multiple charges, not just fines
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 26, 2020, 03:08:45 pm
Anyone else's blood boil when you see these parasite hippy fwits giving coppers grief when they are trying to enforce covid rules? These coppers are saints, I'd see red and start swinging. I mean seriously, that silly mole who said to the copper who was arresting her "I dont consent to being arrested" and "I will sue you for armed kidnapping" ;D  ;D Did someone leave the asylum doors open? And today I watched an hour long video of a fwit truck driver who didnt have the Queensland border pass so he decided ihe hadnt committed a crime and drove off. He got pulled over again, gave the copper grief, reinforcements came, end result? Truck was unregistered, drivers licence was expired. He agreed to fill out a border pass online, got fined for the other offences, WTF was the point? The imbecile then posted on FB the whole thing which he recorded, lets just say the comments werent favourable ;D  ;D Is it me? Am I the fwit?

In regards to the bold....

Yes. You wasted 1 hour of your time watching it.  :P

Don't give them the time of day
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 26, 2020, 03:11:22 pm
In regards to the bold....

Yes. You wasted 1 hour of your time watching it.  :P

Don't give them the time of day

I always try and look at both sides of an argument to try and understand the point. I should have known there wouldnt be one, much like many of your posts :P  :P  ;)  ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 26, 2020, 04:24:11 pm
I always try and look at both sides of an argument to try and understand the point. I should have known there wouldnt be one, much like many of your posts :P  :P  ;)  ;)
One of us did nothing but complain about our boys yesterday.

One of us kept saying that everyone is jumping at shadows yesterday.

Do i need to remind you which one was which? Lets not talk about understanding. ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 26, 2020, 06:46:59 pm
One of us did nothing but complain about our boys yesterday.

One of us kept saying that everyone is jumping at shadows yesterday.

Do i need to remind you which one was which? Lets not talk about understanding. ;)
Nah that was me, guilty as charged, but we digress.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on July 27, 2020, 09:48:09 pm
I feel a bit sorry for all the nice Karens  :(
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 29, 2020, 08:10:18 am
So what's the difference between the New Posts and New Replies button?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 29, 2020, 01:04:42 pm
So what's the difference between the New Posts and New Replies button?

I think 'new replies' are 'new posts' in threads you've posted in....as in they are replying in a thread you have posted in.

New posts are threads you have not posted in......i think.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on July 29, 2020, 01:13:28 pm
I think 'new replies' are 'new posts' in threads you've posted in....as in they are replying in a thread you have posted in.

New posts are threads you have not posted in......i think.

I think so too - I will try and verify later on when I have a bit more time.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 05, 2020, 04:12:00 pm
Question: Where do you thing the greatest hatred lies between supporters? For me, I hate the Cheats, always have always will. No one comes close for me. During the saga I was praying they'd wind them up and padlock the gates.
Having said that, in my experiences with other Bluebaggers and supporters of all the other clubs, the Haw - Geelong hatred is the fiercest I've witnessed. Ive been to a couple of Haw-Geel games over the years (due to mates I have) and that hatred is like nothing Ive seen.
Thoughts?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on August 05, 2020, 04:28:44 pm
Question: Where do you thing the greatest hatred lies between supporters? For me, I hate the Cheats, always have always will. No one comes close for me. During the saga I was praying they'd wind them up and padlock the gates.
Having said that, in my experiences with other Bluebaggers and supporters of all the other clubs, the Haw - Geelong hatred is the fiercest I've witnessed. Ive been to a couple of Haw-Geel games over the years (due to mates I have) and that hatred is like nothing Ive seen.
Thoughts?
"Hate"is probably the wrong word for me. I don't hate any of the following and would miss them terribly if they weren't  there to beat. It's the traditional rivals and successful clubs. On the top layer is Collingwood and Essendon and the second tier it's Richmond and Hawthorn.(Can't split them).
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 05, 2020, 04:51:20 pm
Question: Where do you thing the greatest hatred lies between supporters? For me, I hate the Cheats, always have always will. No one comes close for me. During the saga I was praying they'd wind them up and padlock the gates.
Having said that, in my experiences with other Bluebaggers and supporters of all the other clubs, the Haw - Geelong hatred is the fiercest I've witnessed. Ive been to a couple of Haw-Geel games over the years (due to mates I have) and that hatred is like nothing Ive seen.
Thoughts?
Hands down, it's CheatsFC and many things touched by a Sheedy for me.

Oddly for a Carlton man I don't hate the Filth that much, I probably dislike Nthmond 2nd.

But CheatsFC, nothing more than a bunch of lowbrow two-faced crap-stained shirttail Silverspoon wannabes. ;D

You know "Karen", well I'd stop to piss on "Karen" if she was on fire, but not for a CheatsFC supporter.

There is a reason their club colours match the 3rd Reich!
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRJbLbS5tROTNj5jqLYFTcUg61hWrHZUqeADw&usqp=CAU)
All kents and ar5eholes.

Particularly nasty haemorrhoids can be red and black!

I'd describe them as inbred, but that is offensive to inbred people.

I heard a rumor once Denis Leary wrote the song Asshole after being taken to a Filth vs CheatsFC game by a Filth supporting mate. We know Leary wasn't writing about the Filth because they ride buses and trains which don't park in handicapped spaces! ;)

One day I might tell you how I really feel! :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 05, 2020, 04:54:11 pm
Hatred...Essendon but we need them in the comp so we can watch them fail and rejoice no matter our own problems...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 05, 2020, 05:58:37 pm
Swans.  Essendon.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 05, 2020, 06:46:39 pm
Hands down, it's CheatsFC and many things touched by a Sheedy for me.
Same
Oddly for a Carlton man I don't hate the Filth that much, I probably dislike Nthmond 2nd.
Same Same. As a kid, I went to many Coll games with my mate and his folks so I respect Coll as opposed to hating them,
As for Rivalry, which is another thing in my book, there is no bigger rivalry than Car-Coll. Our two teams started rivalry in football way back. All the smaller club followed suit when they started to become big.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 05, 2020, 06:47:58 pm
Swans :o .  Essendon.
Really, why?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 05, 2020, 07:57:56 pm
Really, why?

REALLY ugly football, salary cap concessions, dubious trades ... I just don't like them GTC and the way they've managed the system to their advantage over the years. 

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 05, 2020, 08:42:02 pm
REALLY ugly football, salary cap concessions, dubious trades ... I just don't like them GTC and the way they've managed the system to their advantage over the years. 


Fair enough, although to be fair, they only used the system given to them by the AFL and I understand why they gave it to them (ie COLA). As for their trades, I'm sure they were ticked off by the AFL, like the Judd Visy deal was (that was as shifty as). As for the way they play, if our mob played like that for the last 10-15 years and made all the finals they did, I personally wouldn't complain. I don't mind Syd personally, love the standards they set for training and prep, all the stuff Roosy set up. Good culture. Im sure there were ratbags in amongst them, every club has them. I read somewhere than when Hannebury got to StK and saw the way they trained, he thought it was a joke compared to what he was used to.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on August 06, 2020, 06:13:05 pm
That explosion in Lebanon was horrific.
Currently the death toll is around 130 but you would have to think it will be many, many times that number.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 06, 2020, 06:30:32 pm
That explosion in Lebanon was horrific.
Currently the death toll is around 130 but you would have to think it will be many, many times that number.

That was insane, some of the footage emerging is unfarkenbelievable. It must have been horrific, watching a fire one minute, showered with debris the next. My heart goes out to those poor people, incompetence by the authorities once again. Another sorry case study for future engineering students, let hope everyone learns from it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 06, 2020, 06:49:42 pm
That was insane, some of the footage emerging is unfarkenbelievable. It must have been horrific, watching a fire one minute, showered with debris the next. My heart goes out to those poor people, incompetence by the authorities once again. Another sorry case study for future engineering students, let hope everyone learns from it.

2.5 tonnes in the Oklahoma bombing and remember what that did.  Beirut 2,750 tonnes.



Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on August 06, 2020, 07:13:34 pm
Heard today that there is many more times the amount in Beirut stored in Newcastle.  Not sure of its exact location in that city. ☠
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 06, 2020, 08:07:11 pm
Heard today that there is many more times the amount in Beirut stored in Newcastle.  Not sure of its exact location in that city. ☠
I'd hazard a guess (no pun intended) that the storage is heavily controlled and fortified as opposed to the ticking timebomb in Beirut
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 07, 2020, 07:58:56 am
Hazmat is pretty strict in Australia, special licensing, heavy regulations, inspections, etc., etc.. Even so these incidents are not impossible, and it's nearly always human error, malicious intent rarely factors. At one location we keep relatively small quantities of powdered metals for 3D printing, each batch of any pyrolytic material has to be self-contained, have it's own locker in it's own explosion bay, in gas filled moisture barrier containers.

I read that in Beirut apparently someone had allowed fireworks to be stored in the same location/facility. I can't say it wouldn't happen, but it would be illegal here.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 07, 2020, 08:21:06 am
Hazmat is pretty strict in Australia, special licensing, heavy regulations, inspections, etc., etc.. Even so these incidents are not impossible, and it's nearly always human error, malicious intent rarely factors. At one location we keep relatively small quantities of powdered metals for 3D printing, each batch of any pyrolytic material has to be self-contained, have it's own locker in it's own explosion bay, in gas filled moisture barrier containers.

I read that in Beirut apparently someone had allowed fireworks to be stored in the same location/facility. I can't say it wouldn't happen, but it would be illegal here.
Not a hope in hell it would happen here.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 07, 2020, 10:46:11 am
Not a hope in hell it would happen here.
See today's reports, some dodgy Russian involvement seems to be a trigger in Beirut.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 07, 2020, 12:06:55 pm
See today's reports, some dodgy Russian involvement seems to be a trigger in Beirut.
Yeah just read it in the Hun, I still have full confidence that something like that (ie dodgy) wouldn't happen here, not impossible but very highly unlikely IMO.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 07, 2020, 01:12:07 pm
Yeah just read it in the Hun, I still have full confidence that something like that (ie dodgy) wouldn't happen here, not impossible but very highly unlikely IMO.
Who would have thought Putin would "accidentally" blow up a big exclusive chunk of of an ally like Beirut! :o

Where are those post COVID gas and oil supply lines, and who profits from ongoing disputes by selling munitions?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on August 18, 2020, 02:21:10 pm
Someone posted that the flight from Brisbane to Darwin is a surprising 3 hrs 45 mins.  It still amazes me how big Australia is - it takes over 5 hours to get out of Australia going to Singapore from Melbourne - Brisbane is only half way to Cairns etc.  No wonder there are plenty of tourists who don't quite get how long it takes to go anywhere.  It takes about 7 hours to drive from Melbourne to the North West corner of Vic!

A mate of mine was working in London and there was a Wallbies v Scotland game in Edinburgh, so he drove up on Friday and back on Sunday.  No one believed that he went - had to produce ticket stubs as evidence - because you couldn't possibly drive that far on a weekend - admittedly it is a fair drive even for Aussies for a weekend.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 18, 2020, 02:49:15 pm
A mate of mine was working in London and there was a Wallbies v Scotland game in Edinburgh, so he drove up on Friday and back on Sunday.  No one believed that he went - had to produce ticket stubs as evidence - because you couldn't possibly drive that far on a weekend - admittedly it is a fair drive even for Aussies for a weekend.
Yes, it's truly bizarre.

My wife travelled with me to the UK when our 1st child was born, the vast majority of her relatives are UK based so it was time for her to do the circuit of grans, aunts and cousins. I was staying in Birmingham for a convention at the BEC, Birmingham was good because it was central to her family, some in Bath/Cardiff area and others over at Ipswich. When the hire company delivered the car to the hotel, the staff couldn't believe she was going to drive all that way with a Wee Bairn all by herself just for the day. They thought she should go for at least a few days or maybe even a week. It was just 2hrs in either direction, like a circuit of Port Phillip Bay from Portsea to Geelong!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 18, 2020, 02:58:38 pm
Yes, it's truly bizarre.

My wife travelled with me to the UK when our 1st child was born, the vast majority of her relatives are UK based so it was time for her to do the circuit of grans, aunts and cousins. I was staying in Birmingham for a convention at the BEC, Birmingham was good because it was central to her family, some in Bath/Cardiff area and others over at Ipswich. When the hire company delivered the car to the hotel, the staff couldn't believe she was going to drive all that way with a Wee Bairn all by herself just for the day. They thought she should go for at least a few days or maybe even a week. It was just 2hrs in either direction, like a circuit of Port Phillip Bay from Portsea to Geelong!
Italians think we are mad how far we drive to go to places. Italy is roughly the size of Victoria (sq km wise).
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 18, 2020, 03:31:20 pm
Italians think we are mad how far we drive to go to places. Italy is roughly the size of Victoria (sq km wise).
Yeah, got to be very careful of those map projections.

I don't know how many times I've had work associates tell me they are going to NZ, usually to arrive in Wellington, spend the day and then drive from Wellington to Auckland leaving at the end of the next business day. On a world map or globe it looks like Melb to Albury, 3 ~ 4 hrs, but it's more like Melb to Canberra and takes about 7hrs.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on August 18, 2020, 04:06:03 pm
Takes forever to drive anywhere in NZ, but because you go through every town, there are some pretty cool places you can pop into.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on August 18, 2020, 04:15:11 pm
Takes forever to drive anywhere in NZ, but because you go through every town, there are some pretty cool places you can pop into.

Loved driving in the South Island but found the traffic in the North Island very frustrating.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on August 18, 2020, 04:22:15 pm
What I found funny was how rental car companies don't allow cars on the ferry between islands, so you need to drop the car off at one side and pick up a new one on the other. 

We had one of the roughest crossings from Wellington to Pickton (?), they were line ball as to whether they would cancel it or not.  We had a coffee before getting to the ferry and the locals suggested a locally made ginger tablet.  My wife took one, we gave one to our then 2yo, but I said I'd be right.  I was only just right!  Cutlery and crockery was going everywhere from the food places and I took shelter a couple of decks lower, sucking on ice cubes, while our son slept through it all, had no idea what went on!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on August 18, 2020, 06:31:22 pm
Yeah, got to be very careful of those map projections.

I don't know how many times I've had work associates tell me they are going to NZ, usually to arrive in Wellington, spend the day and then drive from Wellington to Auckland leaving at the end of the next business day. On a world map or globe it looks like Melb to Albury, 3 ~ 4 hrs, but it's more like Melb to Canberra and takes about 7hrs.

7 hours is full on! I did this drive in early 2015 from Wellington to Auckland on my Pat Malone and it took about 8 1/2 hours (I do Melbourne to Canberra in about 6 1/2 hrs) and I can assure you I was not conservative with the accelerator... no 110kmph zones, nothing over 100. Absolutely amazing scenery. Just as well as I was into the scenery and amazing variety of landscapes because it's mostly single lanes which really slows you down!!! However, the Kiwis do something that most of us don't ...if they're slowing up traffic -- towing a caravan etc -- they will actually pull over to allow traffic to pass. Well mannered drivers for sure.

I went up highway (**cough**giggle**) 1 and 32 on the way up and came back 1 all the way and stayed a night in Taupo (next to Lake Taupo which is stunning... not far from Rotorua).

On the South Island Mrs Baggers and I did the drive from Picton to Lake Tekapo. Magnificent... drove through the partial rebuild of Christchurch -- 2015 -- and stayed the night and yep, big shake woke us late that night though it might have been... nuh, won't go there. Such a pretty city, straight out of England!!!. Lake Tekapo is a mesmerising colour - brilliant turquoise.

I would live in Picton in a heartbeat or Wellington if it didn't shake so damn much.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 18, 2020, 06:57:06 pm
Italians think we are mad how far we drive to go to places. Italy is roughly the size of Victoria (sq km wise).

Nice place ... did most of Europe by Eurail.  Very hospitable to a wide eyed 20 year old on his first journey.  $320 for a (literal) round the world ticket
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 18, 2020, 08:39:25 pm
7 hours is full on! I did this drive in early 2015 from Wellington to Auckland on my Pat Malone and it took about 8 1/2 hours (I do Melbourne to Canberra in about 6 1/2 hrs) and I can assure you I was not conservative with the accelerator...
Back in the 80s and 90s, my crazy cousin used to do Melb Syd in 6.5 hrs in his truck, 40t, $1.50-$1.60 all the way. Hair raising stuff and lawless in those days. Thankfully, the interstate trucking industry is alot more under control now.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 18, 2020, 08:41:22 pm
Nice place ... did most of Europe by Eurail.  Very hospitable to a wide eyed 20 year old on his first journey.  $320 for a (literal) round the world ticket
Me and the Mrs and have done 3 trips now, driven all around Italy, Luxembourg and France, love driving there.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 18, 2020, 09:10:30 pm
7 hours is full on! I did this drive in early 2015 from Wellington to Auckland on my Pat Malone and it took about 8 1/2 hours (I do Melbourne to Canberra in about 6 1/2 hrs) and I can assure you I was not conservative with the accelerator...
Yes, for work I've done that drive many times, I had to travel to a lot of places all over NZ and in-between like Levin, Palmerston, Hamilton, Rotorua, Nelson, Napier, New Plymouth, etc., etc.. using SH1(The Desert Road), SH3(West Coast) or SH2 and SH5(East Coast). It's all well worth a visit I recommend it to anybody and I find everybody very friendly, if not a little odd in places.

Luckily being for work I didn't have to pay, and I stayed at some fairly flash accommodation around Taupo, Turangi, etc., if I was staying across the ditch for two weeks I  tried to be in that there at the weekend to find a fishing lodge for the weekend. In the end the owners of the company worked out all my NZ trips were two weeks long with one week of meetings! Actually truth be known they didn't care, they are great people to work for and they know travelling for work can be a bastard so they encourage tourism and a bit a free time while travelling, I'm so lucky I've seen more of the planet than some airline pilots!

I've only been through Picton on the way to Nelson, never stayed there, and further south around the coast Nelson is pretty. But I did see large parts of Fjordland down are Milford Sound.

It use to be cost effective to hire a car, drive and stay, time was never an issue. But over the years as accommodation started getting more and more expensive I found it was cheaper to fly in small aircraft all over the South Island, not the ATRs or Bombardiers, but the small 10 or 20 seat planes like the Pilatus PC12, Jetstream 31 or even a Piper Twin that held 5 or 6 of us. I'm afraid compared to home, and out of necessity, they've got super regional airlines in NZ, make Australia's look rubbish in terms of scheduling and price, but it's a bit hilly over there and when the roads a closed due to snow or volcanoes you still have to get around. Seriously you can hop through three or four of those small towns in a day, a lot of them have decentralised industries. It's just super flying just barely over the snow capped refrigerators out the back of Christchurch, you feel like a fighter pilot, refrigerators is what the locals call the Southern Alps.

If you like Picton and ever find yourself back over that way head down and have a look at Akaroa, although I haven't been to that region since the big shake. Crazy beautiful areas, you can be in a log cabin 30 metres off the ocean wave front and have a trout laden fresh water stream flowing right past your front door with trout in it!

Way up North is nice as well, green grass to the ocean's edge around areas like the Bay of Islands,

I was driving the Desert Road once years ago and had to detour because Ruapehu had got a bit cranky and dropped a rock the size of the school bus across SH1 closing it for three days, the News reports showed dozens or hundreds of rocks the size of VW's falling on or around the the road which as you know is a hell of a strong throwing arm for a Kiwi, most of them are use to playing cricket on postage stamps. I was also very lucky down south once, I was in the Riccarton Mall grabbing a bite of lunch before a meeting near the Christchurch airport and not 3 minutes after I left the carpark there was a huge shake and the roof collapsed killing a bunch of people, in the car driving to the meeting I didn't even notice the quake!

I loved travelling around NZ, but since the big shake work won't let me go there anymore, it's OOB!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on August 19, 2020, 09:22:33 am
Yes, for work I've done that drive many times, I had to travel to a lot of places all over NZ and in-between like Levin, Palmerston, Hamilton, Rotorua, Nelson, Napier, New Plymouth, etc., etc.. using SH1(The Desert Road), SH3(West Coast) or SH2 and SH5(East Coast). It's all well worth a visit I recommend it to anybody and I find everybody very friendly, if not a little odd in places.

Luckily being for work I didn't have to pay, and I stayed at some fairly flash accommodation around Taupo, Turangi, etc., if I was staying across the ditch for two weeks I  tried to be in that there at the weekend to find a fishing lodge for the weekend. In the end the owners of the company worked out all my NZ trips were two weeks long with one week of meetings! Actually truth be known they didn't care, they are great people to work for and they know travelling for work can be a bastard so they encourage tourism and a bit a free time while travelling, I'm so lucky I've seen more of the planet than some airline pilots!

I've only been through Picton on the way to Nelson, never stayed there, and further south around the coast Nelson is pretty. But I did see large parts of Fjordland down are Milford Sound.

It use to be cost effective to hire a car, drive and stay, time was never an issue. But over the years as accommodation started getting more and more expensive I found it was cheaper to fly in small aircraft all over the South Island, not the ATRs or Bombardiers, but the small 10 or 20 seat planes like the Pilatus PC12, Jetstream 31 or even a Piper Twin that held 5 or 6 of us. I'm afraid compared to home, and out of necessity, they've got super regional airlines in NZ, make Australia's look rubbish in terms of scheduling and price, but it's a bit hilly over there and when the roads a closed due to snow or volcanoes you still have to get around. Seriously you can hop through three or four of those small towns in a day, a lot of them have decentralised industries. It's just super flying just barely over the snow capped refrigerators out the back of Christchurch, you feel like a fighter pilot, refrigerators is what the locals call the Southern Alps.

If you like Picton and ever find yourself back over that way head down and have a look at Akaroa, although I haven't been to that region since the big shake. Crazy beautiful areas, you can be in a log cabin 30 metres off the ocean wave front and have a trout laden fresh water stream flowing right past your front door with trout in it!

Way up North is nice as well, green grass to the ocean's edge around areas like the Bay of Islands,

I was driving the Desert Road once years ago and had to detour because Ruapehu had got a bit cranky and dropped a rock the size of the school bus across SH1 closing it for three days, the News reports showed dozens or hundreds of rocks the size of VW's falling on or around the the road which as you know is a hell of a strong throwing arm for a Kiwi, most of them are use to playing cricket on postage stamps. I was also very lucky down south once, I was in the Riccarton Mall grabbing a bite of lunch before a meeting near the Christchurch airport and not 3 minutes after I left the carpark there was a huge shake and the roof collapsed killing a bunch of people, in the car driving to the meeting I didn't even notice the quake!

I loved travelling around NZ, but since the big shake work won't let me go there anymore, it's OOB!

Ripper read, Spotted One. Sheesh, I related so much to many of your observations, especially light air travel which, as you say, craps all over our light air travel here in Oz.

Loved the bit about the desert road... I was going to mention that as well. Now folks when they hear us refer to a desert in the middle of the North Island of NZ must think we're nuts (well, there're plenty who no doubt think that anyway  ;D ). But it aint a desert like you'd think... just lots of nothing and low growing shrubbery, but the skyline in parts is snow capped mountains!

I also loved the Interislander ferry from Wellington to Picton (and return of course). Probably did the trip a dozen times when time permitted which takes about 3 1/2 hours one way - if we didn't have the time we flew on one of those single row either side (10 - 12 passengers tops, jet propellor jobs from Wellington to Blenheim over the Cook Strait). We were very lucky in that the seas were mostly well behaved when we sailed and never had it as bad as poor old Dodge experienced. We encountered some moderately rough seas once but the ferry's stabilizers seemed to handle it pretty well.

Oh, and on a footy note, we went and saw the Aints BlueBaggers game at Westpac Statium in Wellington. We won, the hard way and my one vivid memory from the game was Mrs Baggers saying to me at half time, 'Who is that number 4 for us... gee he's useless!' Yep, Gibbs had a first half to forget but then the whole side was asleep, we woke up in the 2nd half. Loads more BlueBagger supporters there than Aints supporters.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 19, 2020, 09:41:51 am
Your wife was a good judge Baggers ... :))
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on October 18, 2020, 10:52:32 am
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/17/jacinda-arderns-labour-party-set-for-victory-in-new-zealand-election

We could learn a thing or two from our neighbours across the ditch.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on October 18, 2020, 01:58:26 pm
We could learn a thing or two from our neighbours across the ditch.

Yes, those Kiwis are a progressive lot.

It will be interesting to see the outcomes of the two referendums.  Polls suggested that the euthanasia referendum would get up but the cannabis one would fail.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on October 18, 2020, 02:11:31 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/17/jacinda-arderns-labour-party-set-for-victory-in-new-zealand-election

We could learn a thing or two from our neighbours across the ditch.

Yep, some of them even smuggled themselves into Melbourne.  😁
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Blues15 on October 18, 2020, 02:51:40 pm
Yep, some of them even smuggled themselves into Melbourne.  😁

Not sure why you would want to 😆
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on October 19, 2020, 09:27:11 am
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/17/jacinda-arderns-labour-party-set-for-victory-in-new-zealand-election

We could learn a thing or two from our neighbours across the ditch.

They know nothing about football. :D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 19, 2020, 10:52:46 am
They know nothing about football. :D
They were no good at lawn bowls either till the Chappells showed them how its done...😎
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on October 29, 2020, 08:16:13 am
After it seems turning some of the boys on The Block to jelly, it looks like Bec Judd has developed the Bubble Trouble as highlighted by many online critics;

Def. Bubble Trouble (abbrv. BT)
Bubble Trouble, when opinions and statements begin to reflect an insular and introspective point of view, mostly drawn from a small circular referenced peer group, that are unrelated and unrepresentative of the wider community. Other signs of Bubble Trouble include. excessively attending Polo events, continually talking up the real-estate market, correcting expert facts with personal opinion, dressing to a high standard to drop the kids off at school, managing to make everyone around you feel uncomfortable, only having two dress modes lux formal and lux active and listing professional influencer as a career.

If that is all the public have to complain about, then I doubt Bec has too many worries.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on November 26, 2020, 11:54:10 am
I light of this incident and others like it;

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/he-had-everything-to-live-for-young-tradie-killed-in-stabbing-outside-seaford-train-station-20201126-p56i2x.html

I do not get the governments priorities, ignoring politics there is a bipartisan failure of government to ensure the criminals in such circumstances are caught. Fair enough, put money into prevention, but capturing many criminals is also a great preventative!

The governments roll out Full HD Super Cameras to fine you for touching your phone charger at a stop light, and use cameras to track suspected COVID spreaders or border crossing terrorists. But the killers of a kid in a train station car-park, one that should be staffed and attended by PSOs, aren't observed and the police beg them to surrender!

And don't give me the liberties or economic argument stuff, the cost and impact is trivial. In fact they government do not even have to pay directly for this stuff, they can just mandate that public and commercial facilities comply with regulations!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on November 26, 2020, 12:53:26 pm
Half the problem will be the judicial system who'll do next to nothing when they front court.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on November 26, 2020, 12:55:38 pm
Half the problem will be the judicial system who'll do next to nothing when they front court.
The family might/do tend to get a bigger grilling from the Victims of Crime Compensation tribunal, than the perpetrators get from the courts!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 26, 2020, 01:00:45 pm
The family might/do tend to get a bigger grilling from the Victims of Crime Compensation tribunal, than the perpetrators get from the courts!

To busy paying $4000 a trip to fly some peanut around the globe on a RAF jet drumming up business (albeit federal gov) and $220M in the upgrade of Sterile Stadium. Mean while, back at the ranch.. The imbeciles know no bounds. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on November 26, 2020, 01:08:57 pm
Frankston is pretty well covered by monitored CCTV:

https://www.frankston.vic.gov.au/Our_Community/Community_Safety/Security_Camera_Program_CCTV

Add to that the private CCTV that the police can access if required.

I reckon that the police would have footage of the incident but will need more information to identify the perpetrators.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 26, 2020, 01:10:09 pm
After it seems turning some of the boys on The Block to jelly, it looks like Bec Judd has developed the Bubble Trouble as highlighted by many online critics;

Def. Bubble Trouble (abbrv. BT)
Bubble Trouble, when opinions and statements begin to reflect an insular and introspective point of view, mostly drawn from a small circular referenced peer group, that are unrelated and unrepresentative of the wider community. Other signs of Bubble Trouble include. excessively attending Polo events, continually talking up the real-estate market, correcting expert facts with personal opinion, dressing to a high standard to drop the kids off at school, managing to make everyone around you feel uncomfortable, only having two dress modes lux formal and lux active and listing professional influencer as a career.

If that is all the public have to complain about, then I doubt Bec has too many worries.
Bec doesn't have that ability to deal with people from all walks of life and lacks humility. Worrying about dust from bushfires in the pool when people were losing their homes is an example..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on November 26, 2020, 01:12:32 pm
To busy paying $4000 a trip to fly some peanut around the globe on a RAF jet drumming up business (albeit federal gov) and $220M in the upgrade of Sterile Stadium. Mean while, back at the ranch.. The imbeciles know no bounds. 
That's $4000 / hour from the Feds for Matisse Cormann to apply for a job he has almost zero chance of winning! ;)

However, I'm not so upset about that, because I can't be a hypocrite and whack the Feds or State about dodgy China dependant dealings, then refuse them the very chance of gaining some leverage in other markets no matter how slim of a chance it may be! $4000/hr isn't much when you are talking about gaining influence in markets with an extra 6 or 9 zeroes on the end!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 01, 2020, 11:09:07 am
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/taylor-sacked-by-swans-after-assaulting-former-girlfriend-20201130-p56j6t.html
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 01, 2020, 11:18:35 am
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-news-2020-bryce-gibbs-interview-carlton-leadership-group-2007-chris-judd-greats-with-garby-podcast/news-story/ae4153569dbd574fa472092798df50ec
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 01, 2020, 11:19:39 am
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2021-adelaide-crows-training-camp-gold-coast-bryce-gibbs-sas-cult-crows-saga/news-story/0b08df135a4e7c63a5c7b2b416c4e742

Admittedly not all that revealing, but worth a couple of  minutes of your time IMO.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 01, 2020, 12:10:34 pm
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2021-adelaide-crows-training-camp-gold-coast-bryce-gibbs-sas-cult-crows-saga/news-story/0b08df135a4e7c63a5c7b2b416c4e742

Admittedly not all that revealing, but worth a couple of  minutes of your time IMO.
Anybody who has been through these training scenarios knows they are a "Make or Break" proposition, even the well run ones, and there is no guarantee you won't break the "A-Graders" of your team in the process.

Why the feck would you do that in an AFL environment?

I see it more as an attempt to overcome shortfall in training, coaching and management regimes, a lazy solution to a tough problem.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 01, 2020, 12:21:09 pm
.....................................................
I see it more as an attempt to overcome shortfall in training, coaching and management regimes, a lazy solution to a tough problem.

Interesting theory, and quite plausible IMO.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 10, 2020, 07:09:54 pm
https://theconversation.com/so-much-for-consensus-morrison-governments-industrial-relations-bill-is-a-business-wish-list-151668
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 10, 2020, 07:20:28 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/10/food-delivery-riders-keep-dying
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 10, 2020, 09:29:38 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/10/food-delivery-riders-keep-dying

Can i offer a suggestion.

If you are going to post a link, perhaps include a paragraph explaining what the hell it is about....or why you think its worth posting and being brought up for discussion.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 10, 2020, 11:42:47 pm
Both good reads.

Libs up to no good, and how Uber has ruined employee rights.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 14, 2020, 10:32:50 am
https://theconversation.com/oregon-just-decriminalized-all-drugs-heres-why-voters-passed-this-groundbreaking-reform-150806
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 14, 2020, 10:50:13 am
https://theconversation.com/oregon-just-decriminalized-all-drugs-heres-why-voters-passed-this-groundbreaking-reform-150806

Thank you, Pauly. Good read. We're finally growing up... well, in some areas!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 14, 2020, 04:51:28 pm
https://theconversation.com/oregon-just-decriminalized-all-drugs-heres-why-voters-passed-this-groundbreaking-reform-150806
Call me old fashioned, naive, uneducated, whatever, I wouldn't support that no matter what arguments are put up.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 14, 2020, 05:34:14 pm
Call me old fashioned, naive, uneducated, whatever, I wouldn't support that no matter what arguments are put up.

Nothing wrong with your position.

Portugal did this to great success and now they sort out people with drug addiction in mental health spaces.

Perhaps they are more successful at rehabilitation by removing the seedy stigma and possibly make it safer to actually do drugs.

I think we who oppose these laws get swept up in this becoming socially acceptable which is potentially a different case. 


I stated this and read the article second.  Note the language.  Rates of overdose.  They mention use of cocaine but I think data can be cherry picked to suit an agenda here.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 14, 2020, 05:43:47 pm
Call me old fashioned, naive, uneducated, whatever, I wouldn't support that no matter what arguments are put up.

People can turn just about anything into a substance of abuse, if they are so predisposed : prescription drugs, illicit drugs, grog, tobacco, petrol, glue, you name it. Whilst I am fully supportive of this move, little will change until we address the core issues of why people abuse things in the first place. This, in my view, taps into several aspects of life and society in general : income, education, support etc. I'm not a fan of laying all the blame on the individual, which seems an extremely easy and lazy position to take when such issues are discussed. These are massive problems, and will never be solved unless we all participate in solving them, rather than isolating and finger pointing.

I'm not suggesting you're doing these things, just to be clear.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on December 14, 2020, 06:02:34 pm
Call me old fashioned, naive, uneducated, whatever, I wouldn't support that no matter what arguments are put up.

Call me in total agreement
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 14, 2020, 06:43:52 pm
People can turn just about anything into a substance of abuse, if they are so predisposed : prescription drugs, illicit drugs, grog, tobacco, petrol, glue, you name it. Whilst I am fully supportive of this move, little will change until we address the core issues of why people abuse things in the first place. This, in my view, taps into several aspects of life and society in general : income, education, support etc. I'm not a fan of laying all the blame on the individual, which seems an extremely easy and lazy position to take when such issues are discussed. These are massive problems, and will never be solved unless we all participate in solving them, rather than isolating and finger pointing.

I'm not suggesting you're doing these things, just to be clear.

That perspective is spot on Pauly but is a long way off in terms of social acceptance. So much easier to demonize/scapegoat one person than think about what made them that way and addressing that.

To give some perspective, briefly. I've worked with addicts, including incarcerated criminals - never did I encounter one of them, male or female, who hadn't experienced physical, psychological or sexual abuse as a child... not one.

Absolutely correct to focus attention on the 'why' of what drives folks to addictions/psychological escape whether they be illicit substances or not, and addressing that on a major scale. How many folks need to 'escape' and find it in a bottle, smoke, injection, sex, shopping, gambling, pill... and so on?

An interesting fact is that of all the drugs about the place just about the best one for removing inhibition is ...alcohol, ice is probably the worst. Ask just about any battered/beaten victim of domestic violence, for one example, what precipitated the crime... grog, combined with an angry person.

Once you legalize any mind-altering substance at least it affords you the opportunity to manage/track and help that person. Legalizing is not a panacea, but it is an approach that at least helps us to begin to understand the larger implications and issues around mental health issues. We'll find better ways to manage the legalization so the community is minimally impacted in time but the change of mindset toward why an individual needs drugs must happen for there to be understanding and healing.

Sorry for any waffling, but this is a subject very close to my heart for many reasons.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 14, 2020, 07:06:27 pm
Nice post Baggers

https://theconversation.com/a-mental-disorder-not-a-personal-failure-why-now-is-the-time-for-australia-to-rethink-addiction-151686
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 14, 2020, 08:52:31 pm
Call me old fashioned, naive, uneducated, whatever, I wouldn't support that no matter what arguments are put up.
I've never touched an illegal drug in my life, but i wouldn't be so quick to write it off.

There are large benefits to doing that, that are not immediately obvious.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 14, 2020, 09:03:55 pm
Nice post Baggers

https://theconversation.com/a-mental-disorder-not-a-personal-failure-why-now-is-the-time-for-australia-to-rethink-addiction-151686


Ripper article. Thank you, Pauly.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 14, 2020, 10:24:18 pm
On a side note, turning point and Easternhealth did a mini documentary series on sbs or ABC and you can watch it.  Its called addicted Australia.

We get introduced to a heroin addict named rueben.  Rueben tells us a little about himself at one point.  Basically he was a store manager once.  Then the place got robbed and that was the end of that job.  Ptsd meant he couldn't return.  Became reclusive.   Drugs were an escape, and then they started to cripple him.  They became the reason he couldn't reconnect after being the escape.  Powerful stuff.

4 episodes on sbs. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on December 14, 2020, 11:49:10 pm
I can't stand drugs.  My worst experience was riding the tram home to Kew on day, and there was a young kid (couldn't have been older than 13) and he was inhaling fumes out of a bag from a can of spray paint.                 

That was truly frightening and not much shocks me anymore after witnessing that episode.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Macca37 on December 15, 2020, 03:48:05 am
If a member of my family were hit and injured by a driver affected by drugs, I just can't imagine my saying "But on a positive note, the driver was taking drugs because they had had a bad upbringing, so that will make you feel better."

There have always been people affected by having a bad upbringing, but these days the pendulum has swung too far from the individual accepting responsibility, to society in general being held to account for their problems

Where will it end if we keep pushing for drugs to be legalised and at the same time relieve people of responsibility for their actions?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 15, 2020, 08:31:31 pm
I can't stand drugs.  My worst experience was riding the tram home to Kew on day, and there was a young kid (couldn't have been older than 13) and he was inhaling fumes out of a bag from a can of spray paint.                 

That was truly frightening and not much shocks me anymore after witnessing that episode.
That's called 'chroming'.

I saw a similar thing on a packed train once. The guy doing it was maybe 17. Had paint all over his face while continuing to huff into his paper bag.

Another bloke, early 20's nicely dressed started up a convo with him. Gave him the whole spiel about how its no good for you and you need to turn your life around. Asking him to repeat stuff he'd just been told, asked him to repeat his name back to make sure the numpty was taking it all in. He even went as far to grab some new mangoes he'd just purchased from out of his backpack to give to this guy to help him get his life in order. The 'chromer' nodded his head, said all the right things, remembered the guys name and everything, agreed he'll stop etc etc. The smartly dressed guy got off the train first, i gave him a nod and smile of approval for his efforts and off he went.
No sooner than when his first foot stepped off the train, the chromer was huffing again like nothing had happened.

My head just dropped.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on December 15, 2020, 09:50:14 pm
I knew what it was called ... I owned a hardware store at the time.

I placed a ban on all "kids" buying them without parental presence.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on December 16, 2020, 12:12:35 am
If a member of my family were hit and injured by a driver affected by drugs, I just can't imagine my saying "But on a positive note, the driver was taking drugs because they had had a bad upbringing, so that will make you feel better."

There have always been people affected by having a bad upbringing, but these days the pendulum has swung too far from the individual accepting responsibility, to society in general being held to account for their problems

Where will it end if we keep pushing for drugs to be legalised and at the same time relieve people of responsibility for their actions?

You’ve expressed perfectly my feelings on the subject, thank you.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Professer E on December 16, 2020, 08:25:13 am
Petrol sniffing in the outback regions is just as destructive.   Whole communities annihilated by that crap.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 16, 2020, 09:36:11 am
I dont think you guys are on the same page with respect to whats happening here and although you mention some of the risks the data shows decrease in these behaviors with decriminalisation (its not the same as legalisation) and not an increase. 

Im on the fence because often the arguments get skewed one way or the other and data is doctored but locking people up for using creates a cycle thats harder to break and ultimately drugs of dependence i think is more about people than drugs and we need to focus on that.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on December 16, 2020, 10:33:14 am
Don’t get me wrong Thry, I also tend to agree with you... but personal responsibility is a must.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 16, 2020, 03:36:08 pm
My sons mate is a paramedic and has been attacked twice by ice affected low lifes who were high, he is a big lad but isnt allowed to defend himself and had to wait till police arrive. Similar story with my daughter who is a nurse who was attacked along with other staff by a nutter who was off his face and had been brought in by the ambos with some broken limbs, he wasnt feeling any of his injuries but proceeded to throw stuff around and belt into anyone who got in his road.
Its a similar story every other night with our drug addicted society, during the bad covid period drug use increased and most ambo calls were for people either overdosing or trying to suicide usually by hanging...hardly a call for a CoVid related illness problem though.
I'm over drug users who get violent and want to risk the lives of healthcare workers and take time away from other sick or injured people. I dont care what the reason they got onto drugs to start with but if you get violent and start hurting people then you are a criminal and should be treated like one.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: jeza on December 16, 2020, 04:04:53 pm
Fair call.

I also think for most of these people it wouldn't be the first time they took drugs and got violent. Yet somehow it's seen as a mitigating factor in court.

Oh I didn't know what I was doing cos I was on drugs.

I'd say You knew you'd become violent yet you took the drugs anyway therefore cop additional punishment.

Not sure that would help but something has to change.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 16, 2020, 04:34:20 pm
I feel very sorry for the emergency workers, the wankers seem to have all the rights! But there is some irony that the wankers won't get more sympathy anywhere else than they get from the emergency workers, they genuinely care. I couldn't do that job!

When I was in hospital for a day or two last year I couldn't believe how disruptive the wankers can be, the emergency medical staff and security staff are consumed by wankers getting aggro because they can't have a smoke or want to piss off out of the joint high as a kite! The emergency would probably be 40% more efficient if the police could just locked them away, but they can't! This is the hidden cost Joe Average doesn't see, while half the staff are dealing with some disruptive wanker, other ill people are not getting the level of attention they need to get out of the place faster! Either way, we pay, we all pay!

I don't know what the answer is, it's not having police in there because the staff will tell you they do not want armed police inside the emergency wards. They see that as being just one lunatic away from a mass homicide! Do no harm!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 16, 2020, 05:16:19 pm
Fair call.

I also think for most of these people it wouldn't be the first time they took drugs and got violent. Yet somehow it's seen as a mitigating factor in court.

Oh I didn't know what I was doing cos I was on drugs.

I'd say You knew you'd become violent yet you took the drugs anyway therefore cop additional punishment.

Not sure that would help but something has to change.
I'd apply a double penalty for being under the influence. Fark the discounts, nuffs enuff.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 16, 2020, 05:18:18 pm
I feel very sorry for the emergency workers, the wankers seem to have all the rights! But there is some irony that the wankers won't get more sympathy anywhere else than they get from the emergency workers, they genuinely care. I couldn't do that job!

When I was in hospital for a day or two last year I couldn't believe how disruptive the wankers can be, the emergency medical staff and security staff are consumed by wankers getting aggro because they can't have a smoke or want to piss off out of the joint high as a kite! The emergency would probably be 40% more efficient if the police could just locked them away, but they can't! This is the hidden cost Joe Average doesn't see, while half the staff are dealing with some disruptive wanker, other ill people are not getting the level of attention they need to get out of the place faster! Either way, we pay, we all pay!

I don't know what the answer is, it's not having police in there because the staff will tell you they do not want armed police inside the emergency wards. They see that as being just one lunatic away from a mass homicide! Do no harm!
Well the answer certainly isn't removing the responsibility by decriminalising it IMHO. These days, it seems to always be someone else's fault or problem.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: chalkybill on December 16, 2020, 09:06:57 pm
I noticed that the Oregon study suggested that the money formerly used to arrest, hold court, incarcerate, etc. would be better spent else where.  Suggesting it would be less.  Yes there would be decreases in these costs but they would probably be more than matched by medical and psychological bills.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 16, 2020, 10:12:43 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/12/jeff-bezos-amazon-workers-covid-19-scrooge-capitalism
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: shawny on December 17, 2020, 07:03:34 am
I dont care what the reason they got onto drugs to start with but if you get violent and start hurting people then you are a criminal and should be treated like one.




100% agree. Angry Andersons son is dead as a result of trying to assist his best mate and who was on a heavy night taking MDMA. He was beaten and stomped on as 'apparently' he thought Andersons son was the devil. He was sentenced to 7 years with a min of 5 for manslaughter. Utter madness and shows no justice for the poor victims family whatsoever.

Andersons son has had potentially 60 years taken from him and the man responsible could be walking the streets in 5... How is this right?

Any father would be hard pressed not wanting to take his own justice out on release - These are crimes the victims family never ever move on.

Disgusting lack of justice.     
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: townsendcalling on December 17, 2020, 11:26:47 am
Should kids who are currently at uni, but have solid casual jobs, be asked to pay board?? (They already  pay their own rego, car insurance, phones and CFC membership)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 17, 2020, 11:27:44 am
Again, another huge issue which isn't an either/or situation to my way of thinking.

Until ice came along most violent crimes were committed by folks with a mental illness or drunk (or both)... and alcohol is a legal drug.

Let’s take a squiz at the horrendous cost to the community of drunk people/alcohol... domestic violence, car/truck accidents, beating up ambos/ staff in hospitals and so on. Alcohol remains one of the worst drugs re causes of violence and crime... then there are the physical illnesses caused by alcohol - another cost to the community.

Ice is in a category of its own. An angry person on ice is every bit as bad as an angry drunk – abuse and violence. But ice also tends to alter the actual brain chemistry of those pre disposed to mental health issues. And there aint no going back once this chemistry is altered… only prescription medication which tends to so subdue the individual as to make them indistinguishable from a cabbage – better that than irrational/angry/violent, some would say.

Since time immemorial, humans have sought out mind-altering substances, but generally for a sense of peace or fun or spiritual inspiration/connection.

Just to throw a wrench into the argument… much meaningful research into some illicit drugs (LSD, magic mushies, peyote, hooch and so on) shows that these mind-altering substances can be effectively used in psychiatry and psychology to actually help some folks with a mental illness. Holy cr@p! Yep, and it is gaining momentum but unlike the 60s, its use is being strictly controlled & monitored (and is still in the experimental stage it should be noted). Leary and co. were onto something.

And here’s another mind-bender – low level consumers of alcohol out-live non-drinkers. Yep, and it aint the grape or whatever, its actually the alcohol. Glass of grape, or coupla beers or G & T etc with dinner – good for you. But as soon as we go beyond the one or two per day, the wellness curve dips… badly!

As for the justice aspect, personally, although I favour decriminalizing illicit drugs, provided monitoring and registration is thorough, I’m an absolutist re NOT being able to use ‘drunk or outa my mind’ as any excuse or justification for a crime. So many mind-altering substances (grog included) only remove inhibition, so any angry person is a powder keg re abuse and violence against society once effected by their poison of choice. For me, convictions against those committing a crime of violence against another human/animal, whether p1ssed/high or not, should get more jail time.

I totally understand the feelings of anger toward those who harm others when drunk or high. I’m not immune from those feelings and have had family members keep things from me because they knew what I would do to the perpetrator of the violence against my loved one.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 17, 2020, 11:31:26 am
Should kids who are currently at uni, but have solid casual jobs, be asked to pay board?? (They already  pay their own rego, car insurance, phones and CFC membership)
@townsendcalling

Yes, even if eventually it has to be given back when they might be struggling.

I do not see this as being anything to do with wealth, it's about doing what is right.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 17, 2020, 12:50:15 pm
In my very limited reading on this topic, I gather that in pre modern cultures, psychedelics were used quite commonly, but always in a ritualistic context, under supervision, and were taken principally in order to experience the divine. They were, as I understand it, a kind of equalizer, to convey the correct (in my view) notion that we are strongly connected with the things around us, and we need to respect that. I'm quite sure they also understood this was a good way of taking care of those individuals who feel a strong urge to liberate themselves from everyday constraints and societal norms, and to do it in a managed, sensible way. Such experiences are not only induced by drugs - sweat lodges and vision quests, even extended fasting can induce an altered state of consciousness.

I'm not suggesting that such cultures are perfect, but I think frankly the West could learn a lot from our ancestors.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 17, 2020, 01:21:22 pm
In my very limited reading on this topic, I gather that in pre modern cultures, psychedelics were used quite commonly, but always in a ritualistic context, under supervision, and were taken principally in order to experience the divine. They were, as I understand it, a kind of equalizer, to convey the correct (in my view) notion that we are strongly connected with the things around us, and we need to respect that. I'm quite sure they also understood this was a good way of taking care of those individuals who feel a strong urge to liberate themselves from everyday constraints and societal norms, and to do it in a managed, sensible way. Such experiences are not only induced by drugs - sweat lodges and vision quests, even extended fasting can induce an altered state of consciousness.

I'm not suggesting that such cultures are perfect, but I think frankly the West could learn a lot from our ancestors.
I've heard the term psychedelic is a bit wrong, it's really the domain of LSD and Psilocybin. The cultural substances were more psychotropic than hallucinogen, substances like Peyote or Datura. I'm not sure the fine details.

There was a nice podcast about this a few weeks back;
http://bigpicturescience.org/episodes/skeptic-check-shroom-with-a-view

The potential for treatment of depression with some of these native medicines is being seriously investigated.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 17, 2020, 04:42:53 pm
I've heard the term psychedelic is a bit wrong, it's really the domain of LSD and Psilocybin. The cultural substances were more psychotropic than hallucinogen, substances like Peyote or Datura. I'm not sure the fine details.


I just stick to 'mind-altering' substances. Too many grey areas and crossovers.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 17, 2020, 04:49:05 pm
The potential for treatment of depression with some of these native medicines is being seriously investigated.

I know folks here in Oz, who are using it to help with a number of mental illnesses with encouraging results - but the supervision is strict and dosages closely monitored, and there are plenty of main stream medical folks who are dead against it. A dear Yank buddy of mine, many moons ago, was having all kinds of strife with his teenage son... so off they went (from Virginia) and had a w/e of peyote on the west coast somewhere, with the appropriate supervision. He reckons it was the most bonding experience of their lives... about 15 years on and still going strong and not needing and repeat 'sessions!' But for every success story you're bound to find folks not getting the correct supervision and having an awful, even dangerous experience.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 17, 2020, 04:57:24 pm
Should kids who are currently at uni, but have solid casual jobs, be asked to pay board?? (They already  pay their own rego, car insurance, phones and CFC membership)
Im of Italian heritage, so we (in general) don't pay board. Ive put 2 girls through uni and they haven't paid me a cent. They have always had part time jobs during uni and they saved as much of it as they could. To my way of thinking, it was my way of helping them out (ie putting a roof over their heads and feeding them free of charge). My eldest has built a house and has moved in with her partner so they are off and running. My youngest has just completed uni so once she is working FT for a couple of years, she may do the same, until then, she lives with me free of charge.  I gave my eldest a "kick start payment gift" when she bought the land, Ill do the same with Junior when she's ready. I toyed with the idea of making them pay me board with the intention of giving it all back to them when they moved out, but I found they were hard workers and good savers so there wasn't a need. Thats how I was brought up and my take on it anyway.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 17, 2020, 07:57:11 pm
What a farken disgrace this is. This piece of subhuman filth wants to play the racial disadvantage card, it makes me sick to the core. They should just put a bullet between his eyes. Piece of garbage I hope you rot in hell.

From the HS:
The “Indigenous disadvantage” of killer Codey Herrmann will form the centre of defence submissions as they fight the state’s top prosecutor’s bid to lock him up for longer.

Director of Public Prosecutions Kerri Judd QC argues the 36-year sentence handed down to Aiia Maasarwe’s murderer was “manifestly inadequate”.

A five-judge bench will hear the appeal in March.

Court of Appeal president Chris Maxwell said the court would need more information regarding mitigating factors and moral culpability to understand Herrmann’s “appalling” crime.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on December 17, 2020, 08:11:51 pm
From the start to the finish
You live by the sword
But you're over your limit
Come and get your reward
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 18, 2020, 08:43:43 am
My kids never paid board, like GTC we put them through Uni and supported them. I paid board for a couple of years when I first started working but it was different then and my father was old school who put himself through Accounting at Uni at night school and worked several jobs through the day when he was young and never got a cent from his old man and had the value set that you paid your way in life so I had to pay board etc. Funny though when we had kids he spoiled them rotten and mellowed in his later years and became very generous, but I think he was over tough on me to make me harden up.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on December 18, 2020, 09:04:38 am
Weird isn't it ... my first fornightly pay was $53.  My mother insisted I contribute to the household to the tune of $25 for the same period.  I was not happy about that. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 18, 2020, 09:37:55 am
Weird isn't it ... my first fornightly pay was $53.  My mother insisted I contribute to the household to the tune of $25 for the same period.  I was not happy about that. 
That is tough, think I was on $80 a week and $20 - 25 went on board.


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 28, 2020, 05:47:17 pm
https://theconversation.com/the-less-equal-we-become-the-less-we-trust-science-and-thats-a-problem-151691
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 28, 2020, 06:01:46 pm
https://theconversation.com/the-less-equal-we-become-the-less-we-trust-science-and-thats-a-problem-151691
I've got a problem with this, it seems like a correlation rather than a causation.

I'd say the truth lives within the following irony.

The more every unqualified opinion is treated equally in the wider media, without investigation or assessment, the less equal we become! Murdoch's News Ltd will examine every published scientific opinion, often using fake/false claims and cherrypicked facts, and barely question the Dunning Kruger effect driven fools commentating wrongly on deeply technical issues.

It's the widely broadcast unquestioned voice of nutters and conspiracy theorists, whose fake claims go largely unquestioned by the broader media, that drives the opinion of poll driven career politicians.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 28, 2020, 06:23:10 pm
What a farken disgrace this is. This piece of subhuman filth wants to play the racial disadvantage card, it makes me sick to the core. They should just put a bullet between his eyes. Piece of garbage I hope you rot in hell.

From the HS:
The “Indigenous disadvantage” of killer Codey Herrmann will form the centre of defence submissions as they fight the state’s top prosecutor’s bid to lock him up for longer.

Director of Public Prosecutions Kerri Judd QC argues the 36-year sentence handed down to Aiia Maasarwe’s murderer was “manifestly inadequate”.

A five-judge bench will hear the appeal in March.

Court of Appeal president Chris Maxwell said the court would need more information regarding mitigating factors and moral culpability to understand Herrmann’s “appalling” crime.



That hasn’t gone down well with Aboriginal communities.  A lot of Aboriginal folk are saying that they have had similar life experiences and don’t feel at all inclined to rape and murder helpless young women.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 28, 2020, 06:58:23 pm
That hasn’t gone down well with Aboriginal communities.  A lot of Aboriginal folk are saying that they have had similar life experiences and don’t feel at all inclined to rape and murder helpless young women.
Perhaps we should hand him over to his elders to deal with him.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 01, 2021, 01:34:11 pm
I fear politics is getting in the way of science yet again, in this case the origins of humanity in Australia, research about which is suffering from underfunding and neglect because of it being unfashionable in political circles.

For some time it's been hypothesised from evidence uncovered that the people we refer to as 1st Nations were not actually the countries original inhabitants. There is significant evidence in both rock art as well as recent DNA analysis that shows modern 1st Nations people were not related to those who were already here beyond a more recent period of population expansion. Yet mentioning this, discussing it in official circles, is career suicide at the moment due to the political environment.

I know some right-wing types picked up on those reports for their own motives and leverage, but the pursuit of truth should not be tailored to suit human politics, does it really make any difference if the research continues unhindered?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on February 01, 2021, 01:48:56 pm
I fear politics is getting in the way of science yet again, in this case the origins of humanity in Australia, research about which is suffering from underfunding and neglect because of it being unfashionable in political circles.

For some time it's been hypothesised from evidence uncovered that the people we refer to as 1st Nations were not actually the countries original inhabitants. There is significant evidence in both rock art as well as recent DNA analysis that shows modern 1st Nations people were not related to those who were already here beyond a more recent period of population expansion. Yet mentioning this, discussing it in official circles, is career suicide at the moment due to the political environment.

I know some right-wing types picked up on those reports for their own motives and leverage, but the pursuit of truth should not be tailored to suit human politics, does it really make any difference if the research continues unhindered?

This is from 2015, so perhaps not quite cutting edge :

https://theconversation.com/factcheck-might-there-have-been-people-in-australia-prior-to-aboriginal-people-43911

We can only go based on what we know, and for now, any suggestions regarding pre Aboriginal people are speculative and awaiting further evidence. The arguments raised by that dingbat Leyonhjelm are dodgy, but that comes as little surprise.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on February 01, 2021, 01:51:02 pm
From 2016 :

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2016-06-07/dna-confirms-aboriginal-people-as-the-first-australians/7481360

From 2018, not quite on topic, but close :

https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/when-did-aboriginal-people-first-arrive-australia
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 01, 2021, 03:04:55 pm
From 2016 :

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2016-06-07/dna-confirms-aboriginal-people-as-the-first-australians/7481360

From 2018, not quite on topic, but close :

https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/when-did-aboriginal-people-first-arrive-australia
Yes, what we read are two sides of a debate about an investigation.

Having that debate about the investigation isn't my issue, my concern is that one side is politically ensuring the investigation and debate only goes in one direction. They are inhibiting or denying the right to ask the question. Shouldn't the truth be all we care about?

You would have also found those invested in the "Out of Africa" hypothesis now heavily defending that in the face of the 65K year data being disclosed now. It's politically unsavoury, because it affects so many histories, and also because some tout it for political purposes. But that 65K data is built on the same reliable methods as the counterargument, it's not a case of one technique being superior or another wrong. Much of the counterargument at this stage is that 65K isn't correct because we have already reported it as 50K, and they follow up comment is therefore I doubt 65K can be true!

I've sensed in this debate that below is the bigger issue, which puts the recent minority Australian research trying to hold sway against a tsunami of tenured specialists who have formed a "consensus";
Quote
The original study by Dr Adcock and his co-workers was broadly publicised internationally not only because it suggested there were humans in Australia before Aboriginal people but because it challenged a single African origin for all modern humans.
This bit in bold is looking a bit if not very shaky for the long term, the latest discoveries which seem to be surfacing with increasing frequency really suggest many pathways to modern human, but it's staunchly denied by some. The professors will eventually be made redundant by their students, that is when the refreshed data becomes mainstream.

So I weigh all this in the context of academic tenure as well, which is a double edged sword, so there is considerable resistance to new information that sometimes survives or can also make a career's worth of work redundant. That is a pretty fair "why risk it" motivation!

If 65K is true, it won't be the last time modern science built on 19th century natural-philosophy turns out to be full of bogus assumptions. True science is never right, it just gets closer to being correct with every validated revision.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on February 01, 2021, 03:44:45 pm
Science is sitting pretty sweet if you ask me. I accept that as a way of studying the physical world around us, it is the best we have. But it must be pretty nice to be in a position where you can be incorrect (which in essence is what you are saying), yet still have enormous prestige, but also reserve the right to change your mind when something better comes along. I'm being a little mischievous here, but hopefully you can see my point.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on February 01, 2021, 04:08:30 pm
https://humanorigins.si.edu/education/introduction-human-evolution\



Quote
Most scientists currently recognize some 15 to 20 different species of early humans. Scientists do not all agree, however, about how these species are related or which ones simply died out. Many early human species -- certainly the majority of them – left no living descendants. Scientists also debate over how to identify and classify particular species of early humans, and about what factors influenced the evolution and extinction of each species.

I think Science finds new things to disagree about all the time, and whenever anyone wants to argue that point with me, I point to three points in time.

Erastothanes mapped the circumference of the earth using mathematics and shadows in 240 B.C.  Despite this knowledge, Galileo Galilei was labelled heretic as late as the 1600's A.D. for insinutating that the earth was round not flat, and despite all the evidence pointing to the contrary, we have flat earthers in existence today, and if it suited certain political agendas, that would be the truth of the world.

ERGO, Scientific interpretation based on whats common shouldn't be trusted, and the data should be studied individually for people to make up their own minds.  The more someone tells me something is true, the less likely I am to believe it. 


@PaulP , I think the above speaks for what you have stated!!!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on February 01, 2021, 06:55:02 pm
If the average 2020 student walked into a Science classroom when I went to school (1960s) armed with the knowledge of today and started sprouting some of his theories and facts the teacher would probably kick them out (after giving them 6 cuts of the cane for being a smart-arse prick). ;)  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 01, 2021, 07:29:28 pm
If the average 2020 student walked into a Science classroom when I went to school (1960s) armed with the knowledge of today and started sprouting some of his theories and facts the teacher would probably kick them out (after giving them 6 cuts of the cane for being a smart-arse prick). ;)  ;D  ;D
Instead today, the student gives the teacher 6 punches in the head and a kick up the ass.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 01, 2021, 08:01:28 pm
Science is sitting pretty sweet if you ask me. I accept that as a way of studying the physical world around us, it is the best we have. But it must be pretty nice to be in a position where you can be incorrect (which in essence is what you are saying), yet still have enormous prestige, but also reserve the right to change your mind when something better comes along. I'm being a little mischievous here, but hopefully you can see my point.
But obviously you can't be blatantly deceptive or stupidly in error, and you can't be denialist in the Trump style, of course you might only know you were wrong long after enough new knowledge is uncovered.

Science is accepting new knowledge has some foundational right to challenge your ideas, science is not denying that right dogmatically or refusing to even investigate the questions.

 You have the right to accept new science and also defend your own science, you do not have the right to deny new science by political means.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on February 01, 2021, 08:08:25 pm
But obviously you can't be blatantly deceptive or stupidly in error, and you can't be denialist in the Trump style, of course you might only know you were wrong long after enough new knowledge is uncovered.

Science is accepting new knowledge has some foundational right to challenge your ideas, science is not denying that right dogmatically or refusing to even investigate the questions.

 You have the right to accept new science and also defend your own science, you do not have the right to deny new science by political means.

Yes, I agree, and all important points.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 01, 2021, 08:09:44 pm
Yes, I agree, and all important points.
They are still trying to disprove Einstein to this day, he's only right for as long as they fail.

One day Einstein may well be consigned to the same fate as Newton, having delivered us a nice quaint approximation, that is close enough to right in 99.9% of daily cases.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 01, 2021, 08:09:52 pm
You have the right to accept new science and also defend your own science, you do not have the right to deny new science by political means.

Tell that to Trump.
Deny, deny, deny and cut funding to anyone who proves he is wrong.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 01, 2021, 08:14:52 pm
They are still trying to disprove Einstein to this day, he's only right for as long as they fail!

Einstein wasn't always right.

He was wrong.....at least once.

What he was wrong about was when he said a statement he made was incorrect (Essentially about the universe expanding). He was actually correct to begin with. His doubting of himself was what he was wrong about.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Professer E on February 01, 2021, 09:41:13 pm
I believe it was a "gumby factor" he put in to balance the equations, he thought it was an error.  It ended up being the cosmological constant.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 02, 2021, 09:56:02 am
I believe it was a "gumby factor" he put in to balance the equations, he thought it was an error.  It ended up being the cosmological constant.
Because his equations produced a result he didn't believe in, he removed the factor that in effect by chance represents the force on expansion created by dark energy. But he didn't really know about dark energy, he was just using a mathematical technique to paint the picture of the universe he thought was true. He was correct in his initial thoughts, and wrong to remove that term just because it led to something he didn't believe to be true.

Einstein wasn't always right.

He was wrong.....at least once.

What he was wrong about was when he said a statement he made was incorrect (Essentially about the universe expanding). He was actually correct to begin with. His doubting of himself was what he was wrong about.
He was also wrong about Bohr and Quantum Theory/Mechanics, which is where his famous "God doesn't play dice" and "Spooky action at a distance" quotes comes from, and many will probably refer to the God reference as a mistake as well, but I don't see that as part of science, just a faith that he is free to believe in.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 05, 2021, 06:42:46 pm
Computer advice needed from ye knowledgeable ones.

I have no end of troubles with cordless mouses. I've got a J. Burrows which seems 'jittery' and unreliable. Before that I had a Verbatim which keeps on going to sleep (energy saver?) which is a pain in the clackerola. The Microsoft cordless, curved keyboard is a ripper but getting old, and the mouse that came with it, karked it. Time to get another cordless keyboard/mouse combo so only one USB port is used. As I do a heap of typing, and can touch-type at a pretty fair speed (RAN trained) I need a quality 'soft keys' keyboard.

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 05, 2021, 11:48:56 pm
Computer advice needed from ye knowledgeable ones.

I have no end of troubles with cordless mouses. I've got a J. Burrows which seems 'jittery' and unreliable. Before that I had a Verbatim which keeps on going to sleep (energy saver?) which is a pain in the clackerola. The Microsoft cordless, curved keyboard is a ripper but getting old, and the mouse that came with it, karked it. Time to get another cordless keyboard/mouse combo so only one USB port is used. As I do a heap of typing, and can touch-type at a pretty fair speed (RAN trained) I need a quality 'soft keys' keyboard.

Any suggestions?
The higher end Microsoft stuff is pretty good, hard to beat for performance and value. At work they supply these and most people are happy with them, the mouse batteries last ages and ages. https://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/microsoft-wireless-desktop-keyboard-and-mouse-3050-mswdtcomb

If you are a typing officionado get a Cherry MX switch mechanical keyboard, you can custom order a Cherry built keyboard with switches that you prefer. There is something very calming about that older clickity clack positive click sound, and you won't get RSI. But they generally won't come in a mouse combo, you have to buy a separate BT/Wifi mouse.

A mates raves about his Rapoo wireless combo, and one model comes with a wireless mouse charging cradle so there is never any battery issues. It's quite heavy and has a glass face, but he says the weight makes it a pleasure to use.

Have a look at what you can get from Scorptec, https://www.scorptec.com.au/product/keyboards

Check out reviews and guides over on the Wirecutter. keep in mind some brand names are different here compared to the USA.
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/search/?s=keyboard

Tough task to buy a good keyboard especially if you are shopping online, you really need to know what you are looking for.

The crazy gaming people have this subject covered, they customise keyboards like a golfer tailoring clubs.

If you want to know about mechanical keyboard switches, read here, https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2012/12/an-introduction-to-cherry-mx-mechanical-switches/

When you say soft, you are probably looking for something like Cherry MX Brown. Some of the more expensive mechanical keyboards let you pop off the buttons and change the switches to whatever you like. The guys that code a lot at work even have setups with different switches installed in different keyboard locations. It lets them rest their fingers/hands on the keyboard without ghost pressing, again no RSI issues.

The Cherry website even lets you hear the sounds of the switches.
https://www.cherrymx.de/en/mx-original/mx-brown.html
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 06, 2021, 08:09:40 am
The higher end Microsoft stuff is pretty good, hard to beat for performance and value. At work they supply these and most people are happy with them, the mouse batteries last ages and ages. https://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/microsoft-wireless-desktop-keyboard-and-mouse-3050-mswdtcomb

If you are a typing officionado get a Cherry MX switch mechanical keyboard, you can custom order a Cherry built keyboard with switches that you prefer. There is something very calming about that older clickity clack positive click sound, and you won't get RSI. But they generally won't come in a mouse combo, you have to buy a separate BT/Wifi mouse.

A mates raves about his Rapoo wireless combo, and one model comes with a wireless mouse charging cradle so there is never any battery issues. It's quite heavy and has a glass face, but he says the weight makes it a pleasure to use.

Have a look at what you can get from Scorptec, https://www.scorptec.com.au/product/keyboards

Check out reviews and guides over on the Wirecutter. keep in mind some brand names are different here compared to the USA.
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/search/?s=keyboard

Tough task to buy a good keyboard especially if you are shopping online, you really need to know what you are looking for.

The crazy gaming people have this subject covered, they customise keyboards like a golfer tailoring clubs.

If you want to know about mechanical keyboard switches, read here, https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2012/12/an-introduction-to-cherry-mx-mechanical-switches/

When you say soft, you are probably looking for something like Cherry MX Brown. Some of the more expensive mechanical keyboards let you pop off the buttons and change the switches to whatever you like. The guys that code a lot at work even have setups with different switches installed in different keyboard locations. It lets them rest their fingers/hands on the keyboard without ghost pressing, again no RSI issues.

The Cherry website even lets you hear the sounds of the switches.
https://www.cherrymx.de/en/mx-original/mx-brown.html

Wow, can't thank you enough, Spotted One, for taking the time to collect all this info. I also learned that there is a name for those of us who prefer 'soft' keys... tactile. Ripper stuff, mate. Deep thanks. 👍
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 06, 2021, 12:51:48 pm
Wow, can't thank you enough, Spotted One, for taking the time to collect all this info. I also learned that there is a name for those of us who prefer 'soft' keys... tactile. Ripper stuff, mate. Deep thanks. 👍
Yes, oldies like me who learnt to type of electric typewriters, that non-linear give they exhibited it is still the best to type on at speed by far.

I had a relative that was a high level office assistant, shorthand, typing etc., etc., she could type at 120words/min sustained and hardly have a correction! It was like listening one of those old Olivetti daisy wheel or IBM Selectric printers in replay mode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNUEUth7qjc
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 06, 2021, 02:31:24 pm
Yes, oldies like me who learnt to type of electric typewriters, that non-linear give they exhibited it is still the best to type on at speed by far.

I had a relative that was a high level office assistant, shorthand, typing etc., etc., she could type at 120words/min sustained and hardly have a correction! It was like listening one of those old Olivetti daisy wheel or IBM Selectric printers in replay mode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNUEUth7qjc

Wow!! 120 wpm is sensational.

My very best, on a teleprinter in the Navy, was around 60 wpm. On the latest stuff, around 75-80 when in the groove.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 06, 2021, 04:00:38 pm
Wow!! 120 wpm is sensational.

My very best, on a teleprinter in the Navy, was around 60 wpm. On the latest stuff, around 75-80 when in the groove.
60 is pretty good Baggers, worth boasting about!

I mostly use CAD or code now so no more fast typing for me, if I tried the arthritis would turn it into garbled rubbish, not that it isn't rubbish already!

Years ago at the newspapers I would watch the linotype guys at work, setting hot metal, they would run in the 80-90 words/min range setting the Herald Sun or Weekly Times. What was that you said about lead or zinc fumes?

The young blokes at work who code electronics(FPGA, PLD) and program robots fulltime are spectacular, I'm a bit old school and do all that with schematics, but they do it all in code touch typing and ironically look almost robotic at full tilt. Blue glasses, headsets, microphones, and Cherry MX keyboards, they are the ones with customised switches, and also customised light up keyboard colours, most of us do not need that I'm sure. For them it actually has a purpose, when they change program or context the colours change to show the different hot keys and keyboard shortcuts. It's something that has grown out of PC gaming, which is why most of those Cherry MX type keyboards are found under Gaming keyboard listings.

As a confession, I've being using voice recognition a bit lately, I wrote it off as a waste of time years ago, but on the new hardware, with Win 10, the latest version of MS Office it works surprisingly well. You still need a quiet place and a good microphone though, and remain very very calm! ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on February 08, 2021, 12:40:16 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/morrison-shows-again-he-s-master-of-spin-20210205-p5702c.html#comments
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 08, 2021, 12:46:21 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/morrison-shows-again-he-s-master-of-spin-20210205-p5702c.html#comments
 @PaulP‍  What are your thoughts, someone who spins for a living informing or warning us about political spin?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on February 08, 2021, 12:57:49 pm
@PaulP‍  What are your thoughts, someone who spins for a living informing or warning us about political spin?

I'm not sure I follow.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 08, 2021, 03:14:52 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/morrison-shows-again-he-s-master-of-spin-20210205-p5702c.html#comments
Sean Kelly...
Columnist and former adviser to Labor prime ministers Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard...
Think that is a bit choice coming from a bloke who spun stories for the Labor party for a living....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 08, 2021, 04:38:04 pm
Sean Kelly...
Columnist and former adviser to Labor prime ministers Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard...
Think that is a bit choice coming from a bloke who spun stories for the Labor party for a living....

I guess it takes one to know one!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on February 22, 2021, 09:08:35 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/feb/22/people-with-extremist-views-less-able-to-do-complex-mental-tasks-research-suggests

So I guess those extremist types think that complex problems can be solved by simple solutions ? Wow.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on February 22, 2021, 10:12:06 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/feb/22/people-with-extremist-views-less-able-to-do-complex-mental-tasks-research-suggests

So I guess those extremist types think that complex problems can be solved by simple solutions ? Wow.

Not simple necessarily but by being impulsive and reactive.

They're less cautious and more lively to introduce the cain toad as a solution without thinking of other consequences.

Simple solutions are often the best, but you can't apply them properly without understanding the complexity of the problem at hand and ensuring you apply the simplest solution or group of solutions to solve it.

At least thats my understanding anyway. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 23, 2021, 08:03:30 am
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/feb/22/people-with-extremist-views-less-able-to-do-complex-mental-tasks-research-suggests

So I guess those extremist types think that complex problems can be solved by simple solutions ? Wow.

@PaulP‍  I liked this quote;
Quote
Participants who are prone to dogmatism – stuck in their ways and relatively resistant to credible evidence – actually have a problem with processing evidence even at a perceptual level, the authors found.
In the context of Facebook and Twitter this ..................................... the growth of Tik Tok is perhaps an even worse long term indicator!

The internet has constructed the perfect Terrarium for Dogmatism.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 23, 2021, 10:32:10 am
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/feb/22/people-with-extremist-views-less-able-to-do-complex-mental-tasks-research-suggests

So I guess those extremist types think that complex problems can be solved by simple solutions ? Wow.

The psychological makeup/profile of extremists (left or right) and conspiracy prone folks makes for fascinating reading. It would be unfair to summarize the detailed info but feelings of loss of control, and generally having a far more active 'fear centre' active in their brains in one central aspect of their psychology.

That doesn't mean, though, that all conspiracies are automatically nonsense, but often they are. Personally, I don't buy into most, but there are some that prick my interest... and I remain, very often, cynical of politicians who peddle 'trust me' or 'she'll be right.' Such a complex subject.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 24, 2021, 11:02:19 am
I know this will seem harsh.

But how can you have a Defence Minister, Linda Reynolds, who goes out on sick leave over internal issues?

What on earth would happen if we looked like going to war?

What does that say about how defence and security has been managed in recent times?

On a separate note relating to state politics. The Vic Liberals must be in a world of pain if they think going back to Matthew Guy is a viable alternative to the current muppets.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 24, 2021, 11:36:04 am
I know this will seem harsh.

But how can you have a Defence Minister, Linda Reynolds, who goes out on sick leave over internal issues?

What on earth would happen if we looked like going to war?

What does that say about how defence and security has been managed in recent times?

On a separate note relating to state politics. The Vic Liberals must be in a world of pain if they think going back to Matthew Guy is a viable alternative to the current muppets.

Never underestimate the health impact of accountability.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on February 24, 2021, 11:58:08 am
I know this will seem harsh.

But how can you have a Defence Minister, Linda Reynolds, who goes out on sick leave over internal issues?

What on earth would happen if we looked like going to war?

What does that say about how defence and security has been managed in recent times?

On a separate note relating to state politics. The Vic Liberals must be in a world of pain if they think going back to Matthew Guy is a viable alternative to the current muppets.

Quality of politics in the country across ALL parties and at ALL levels is crap.

Look at that stupid liberal jerk in WA .... wants no coal fired power stations by 2025. 

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on February 24, 2021, 01:23:54 pm
Quality of politics in the country across ALL parties and at ALL levels is crap.

Look at that stupid liberal jerk in WA .... wants no coal fired power stations by 2025. 

If the polls are correct, the Libs are facing obliteration in the West with the Nats to form the opposition.  I guess Kirkup is clutching at straws to get some swinging voters on board.

I understand that WA is more reliant on fossil fuel for power generation than other states so eliminating coal-fired power generation by 2025 would be a pipedream.  A significant part of their power generation is government-owned too so there wouldn't be the economic pressures that commercial power generators are facing.  That said, WA probably has greater scope for renewable power than most places, particularly if tidal power generation is utilised.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 24, 2021, 01:40:57 pm
Quality of politics in the country across ALL parties and at ALL levels is crap.

Look at that stupid liberal jerk in WA .... wants no coal fired power stations by 2025. 


Its a disgrace, you can't take any of them seriously at any level (state or fed). The behaviour of the opposition parties in this country during covid has been an utterly disgusting. It will be a very very long time before I vote for any of the major parties.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 24, 2021, 01:45:27 pm
That said, WA probably has greater scope for renewable power than most places, particularly if tidal power generation is utilised.
If they go down that track you want to vote them out immediately.

Progress on those tidal and wave technologies has slowed greatly, there seem to be significant issues around reliability and the ongoing costs. The problem is stuff grows on surfaces left in the sea, algae, barnacles, seas grass, life....................... There are some technologies being developed by CSIRO to assist with those issues, but they haven't been trialled yet, a lot is left up to foreign adopters of the technology. Another case of evented here, sold over there, then purchased back for our use off foreign owners!

On the surface it looks to me like the feasibility of some of the projects had been greatly exaggerated, especially in WA where there has been a huge historical investment, which is understandable given the geography. I think the problem is when they do the sums the energy available to harvest is huge, effectively governed by the gravity from the combined mass of the Earth, Sun and Moon, but the practical methods to harvest it just do not exist. A 20m x 20m x 10m pontoon held submerged in sea water present 4000m² of collecting surface, to which about 4 tonnes of life growth each and every month, which sounds a lot but it's just 1kg/m²/mnth of living matter. The added weight destroys the efficiency of the system, so you have to continually clean everything.

Of the renewables solar is far and away the most feasible, but it is not as clean or low cost as people expect and base load remains an issue but solar thermal could be the cure for that problem but it also has issues. I wouldn't want to live next to one of the bigger solar plants, it must be like living next door to an asphalt carpark that's 2km wide, imagine the hot breeze!

But we should leave this debate to energy thread.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on February 24, 2021, 02:12:27 pm
But we should leave this debate to energy thread.

Yes we should, but be aware that the Federal Government is funding research into tidal energy, mainly done by the CSIRO, and there is an Australian designed and built tidal turbine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvHuumY8G40&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on February 24, 2021, 02:17:27 pm
Its a disgrace, you can't take any of them seriously at any level (state or fed). The behaviour of the opposition parties in this country during covid has been an utterly disgusting. It will be a very very long time before I vote for any of the major parties.

You should definitely vote for the Greens. The improvements in your life should be noticeable immediately. Food tastes better, the air seems fresher, and you'll having more energy and spring in your step than you ever thought possible. It worked for me.  :)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 24, 2021, 04:52:24 pm
You should definitely vote for the Greens. The improvements in your life should be noticeable immediately. Food tastes better, the air seems fresher, and you'll having more energy and spring in your step than you ever thought possible. It worked for me.  :)

Got a genuine, good natured chuckle here, Pauly.

The next 50-75 years, politically, will be fascinating as more and more people drift from the dreadful lackings (new word!!!) of the major parties... globally. They trot out, generally speaking, the same old strategies, tactics and glibness that ruled for so long - and became out-dated a decade or two ago. It is becoming more and more difficult to hide in an internet world. Viva la revolution  ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 24, 2021, 05:18:18 pm
You should definitely vote for the Greens. The improvements in your life should be noticeable immediately. Food tastes better, the air seems fresher, and you'll having more energy and spring in your step than you ever thought possible. It worked for me.  :)
Pauly I partake in activities which don't align with Green policy. I support most of what they stand for, their approach and attitude appals me to the point that I wouldn't feed them.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 24, 2021, 06:23:56 pm
Pauly I partake in activities which don't align with Green policy. I support most of what they stand for, their approach and attitude appals me to the point that I wouldn't feed them.
Well that escalated quickly.  :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 24, 2021, 06:40:51 pm
Pauly I partake in activities which don't align with Green policy. I support most of what they stand for, their approach and attitude appals me to the point that I wouldn't feed them.

I suspect there may have been a little tongue in cheek with Pauly's comment. However, in terms of values and principles I find myself, to some extent, aligned with the Greens but they do have an image and communication problem which has them seeming a little too extreme.

I certainly do a few things not aligned with my perception of hard line Greens... at present I have a magnificent scotch fillet marinading for lunch tomorrow! So I am very much an omnivore... I have no issue ripping out a tree that could pose a public risk in high winds or is crushing water pipes and so on. But the principle of looking to more organic (I grow loads of my own veggies, from organic seeds etc) foods I applaud, along with power options aligned with minimum environmental impact...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 24, 2021, 06:41:05 pm
Well that escalated quickly.  :o
How so?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 24, 2021, 06:44:18 pm
Question for IT gurus.

Is it possible in an organisation using Zoom for meetings to have someone else within the same organisation, not participating in the meeting, 'eves drop' without being noticed?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 24, 2021, 07:09:56 pm
I suspect there may have been a little tongue in cheek with Pauly's comment. However, in terms of values and principles I find myself, to some extent, aligned with the Greens but they do have an image and communication problem which has them seeming a little too extreme.

I certainly do a few things not aligned with my perception of hard line Greens... at present I have a magnificent scotch fillet marinading for lunch tomorrow! So I am very much an omnivore... I have no issue ripping out a tree that could pose a public risk in high winds or is crushing water pipes and so on. But the principle of looking to more organic (I grow loads of my own veggies, from organic seeds etc) foods I applaud, along with power options aligned with minimum environmental impact...
I understood the tongue cheek and was making the same point about their issues with communication. I want to be spoken to, not aggressively lectured or made to feel like a criminal (to be clear I am not referring to my Old Mate Pauly here).
As for my activities, as a son of European Immigrants, I was brought up to harvest animals for food, duck, quail, rabbit, hare, wild pig (the salumi my old man used to make out of wild pig would make your mouth water). I was brought up to do this legally, ethically and respectfully. No animal culls for thrills, what I take I eat. In many circles, this makes people like me persona non grata, but I couldn't care less as I march to my own drum and not that of a herd. If duck, quail etc numbers are proven scientifically to be down in any given year, I am the first to raise my hand and say their shouldn't be a season. As for looking after the environment, I am always willing and ready to do my bit, again I prefer to be influenced by science as opposed to some teenage brat.
I'll use this analogy, I was raised in a catholic family although I am not particularly religious. I find the whole pedo catholic priest thing abhorrent and when caught, they should rot in jail or be given a 22c injection. I have rarely met a priest which actually wanted to spend time with and listen to, the majority lecture you as opposed to talking to you and discussing things. I have met a few though along the journey that have been brilliant to listen to, and they are brilliant because they talk about the basics, the simple things in life. There are a few "Greenies" that I can call friends, who I can talk with one on one in a non aggressive manner and we can walk away respecting each others opinions. However I can't say the same for the imbeciles I have met on the wetland during duck season.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 24, 2021, 07:11:43 pm
Question for IT gurus.

Is it possible in an organisation using Zoom for meetings to have someone else within the same organisation, not participating in the meeting, 'eves drop' without being noticed?
Generally you can see all the participants in the meeting.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 24, 2021, 08:11:29 pm
I understood the tongue cheek and was making the same point about their issues with communication. I want to be spoken to, not aggressively lectured or made to feel like a criminal (to be clear I am not referring to my Old Mate Pauly here).
As for my activities, as a son of European Immigrants, I was brought up to harvest animals for food, duck, quail, rabbit, hare, wild pig (the salumi my old man used to make out of wild pig would make your mouth water). I was brought up to do this legally, ethically and respectfully. No animal culls for thrills, what I take I eat. In many circles, this makes people like me persona non grata, but I couldn't care less as I march to my own drum and not that of a herd. If duck, quail etc numbers are proven scientifically to be down in any given year, I am the first to raise my hand and say their shouldn't be a season. As for looking after the environment, I am always willing and ready to do my bit, again I prefer to be influenced by science as opposed to some teenage brat.
I'll use this analogy, I was raised in a catholic family although I am not particularly religious. I find the whole pedo catholic priest thing abhorrent and when caught, they should rot in jail or be given a 22c injection. I have rarely met a priest which actually wanted to spend time with and listen to, the majority lecture you as opposed to talking to you and discussing things. I have met a few though along the journey that have been brilliant to listen to, and they are brilliant because they talk about the basics, the simple things in life. There are a few "Greenies" that I can call friends, who I can talk with one on one in a non aggressive manner and we can walk away respecting each others opinions. However I can't say the same for the imbeciles I have met on the wetland during duck season.

FWIW, I found myself nodding as I read your post... and really impressed with how you treated captured game. In fact, I drooled. I have a good Italian mate whose grandfather makes home made salami... I was lucky enough to score some - unbelievable, more drooling when I think about it.

And, yes, too many priests and nuns do not walk the talk. I was also brought up a Catholic and have little respect for how the faith is run today.

Re the Greens, that is exactly what I was talking about re how they, in the main, communicate... there is too much talking down to and accusations and judgements coming out of their leader's mouths and that'll turn off many folks. A strong dose of humility will work wonders.

A dear friend who owns some restaurants in the A.C.T., and is Greek, had a vegan recently proudly -- almost arrogantly -- announce to him that they should have more vegan meals on their menu (lamb shoulder is their signature dish... is sensational). He replied that he had a vegan speciality and would be happy to let her try it. He returned to her table with a large bowl, with a big iceberg lettuce leaf covered generously with ice-blocks. She walked out. He was happy.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 24, 2021, 08:46:54 pm
Question for IT gurus.

Is it possible in an organisation using Zoom for meetings to have someone else within the same organisation, not participating in the meeting, 'eves drop' without being noticed?
Technically it is possible although unrelated to Zoom or any other software, legally if they are using company resources, hardware, all the content is owned by the organisation, the without being noticed part is where it gets sticky, in regard to who it is unknown to, the morality of it is another question.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on February 24, 2021, 08:59:10 pm
I won't ever talk to a priest of any persuasion though I tolerate them.  Same for any Green.

I consider both to be rather sanctimonious.  But I sure as hell don't hold followers of either "religion" to judgement.

EDIT

... unless they cross me.  Then all hell breaks loose.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 26, 2021, 12:28:03 pm
https://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/backlash-mr-potato-head-goes-gender-neutral-004216692.html

I guess this is the start of the end for gender titles/descriptions......no more Mr, Mrs, Ms etc...you will have a name but no specifics about your gender.
Titles such as Foreman, Storeman etc etc are obviously  going to be replaced by neutral titles such as Storeperson etc etc.
Ok its a changing world but its getting ridiculous when a legendary kids toy like Mr Potato Head is part of this frenzy to create a gender free society
to appease a minority.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 26, 2021, 12:58:41 pm
https://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/backlash-mr-potato-head-goes-gender-neutral-004216692.html

I guess this is the start of the end for gender titles/descriptions......no more Mr, Mrs, Ms etc...you will have a name but no specifics about your gender.
Titles such as Foreman, Storeman etc etc are obviously  going to be replaced by neutral titles such as Storeperson etc etc.
Ok its a changing world but its getting ridiculous when a legendary kids toy like Mr Potato Head is part of this frenzy to create a gender free society
to appease a minority.
So I'm free to call everybody Potato Head?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on February 26, 2021, 01:33:32 pm
So I'm free to call everybody Potato Head?

But not d-head?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 26, 2021, 01:43:19 pm
But not d-head?
 And you must replace c-head (both genders) with g-head!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 26, 2021, 05:54:34 pm
https://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/backlash-mr-potato-head-goes-gender-neutral-004216692.html

I guess this is the start of the end for gender titles/descriptions......no more Mr, Mrs, Ms etc...you will have a name but no specifics about your gender.
Titles such as Foreman, Storeman etc etc are obviously  going to be replaced by neutral titles such as Storeperson etc etc.
Ok its a changing world but its getting ridiculous when a legendary kids toy like Mr Potato Head is part of this frenzy to create a gender free society
to appease a minority.

How do we get down to the sewers? Via the Personholes?
What do we call homo-sapiens? Hupersons? and Hupersonkind?
When i visit New York, do i ask for downtown Personhatten?
Is The Phantoms mate now known as Persondrake the Magician?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 26, 2021, 06:25:12 pm
How do we get down to the sewers? Via the Personholes?
What do we call homo-sapiens? Hupersons? and Hupersonkind?
When i visit New York, do i ask for downtown Personhatten?
Is The Phantoms mate now known as Persondrake the Magician?

No more Superman or Superwoman/Girl...just SuperPerson.
Spiderman will be SpiderPerson....
Batman/woman will be as one...BatPerson..
Gender distinguishing Genitalia will be removed at birth unless you pay extra to retain them or you can add them later in the format of your choice. Nature will be removed from the equation.....

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on February 26, 2021, 06:29:37 pm
Uh uh! Can't have "person" ! That has a male gendered ending I'm afraid.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 26, 2021, 06:33:13 pm
The world's gone mad I tell ya.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 26, 2021, 07:46:44 pm
It's not illegal to have a sexual identity. This is absurd. Someone should come to Mr Potato Head's defence and allow him to keep his identity.  ::)  ::) 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on February 26, 2021, 08:14:52 pm
Ken and Barbie are headed for oblivion.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 26, 2021, 08:18:50 pm
Uh uh! Can't have "person" ! That has a male gendered ending I'm afraid.

So Batman becomes Batperson becomes Batperoffspring?

But what if a Bat identifies as a bird? Can't be....animalist!
Perhaps instead of Bat we should say Animal.

So perhaps Batman becomes Animalperoffspring.
How do we distinguish between Batman and Catwoman though. They would be turned into the same thing. "Animalperoffspring"

My head hurts.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 26, 2021, 08:19:29 pm
Ken and Barbie are headed for oblivion.
they are somewhat gender neutral already. ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 26, 2021, 08:30:18 pm
Hang on... the word 'person' must be destined for oblivion as well... it has the word 'son' in it, and that's masculine. Holy cr@p. We're all soon to be perpeople, hang on, that's plural... oh I give up  ;)  ::)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 26, 2021, 08:42:57 pm
We can all rest easy now... Hasbro has had a change of heart re making Mr Potato Head gender neutral. Mr Potato Head is back, and Mrs Potato Head is relieved. Common sense has prevailed... hallelujah!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on February 27, 2021, 04:42:17 pm
Its been fun guys, but this will only end in the movement eating itself.

Eventually the political right will put an end to this nonsense and everyone will stand by and applaud it.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 03, 2021, 03:36:07 pm
As much as I hate to state this, because I hate potentially discounting genuine events, it looks like #MeToo_v2 is about to surface in Australian media and politics.

Serious allegations must be supported with serious evidence, we can never allow the judicial system to descend into a Kangaroo Court of unsubstantiated allegations supported by unsubstantiated opinions.

Already we have the Sexual Assault version of VAERS running, where anonymous individuals can publicly blog unsubstantiated claims against pretty much an unlimited number of organisations and individuals. I fear for the people running these blogs, they probably have good intent, but they could well find themselves on the end of very serious and very substantial defamation cases.

It's an oldy but a goody, two wrongs do not make a right!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 03, 2021, 04:55:36 pm
As much as I hate to state this, because I hate potentially discounting genuine events, it looks like #MeToo_v2 is about to surface in Australian media and politics.

Serious allegations must be supported with serious evidence, we can never allow the judicial system to descend into a Kangaroo Court of unsubstantiated allegations supported by unsubstantiated opinions.

Already we have the Sexual Assault version of VAERS running, where anonymous individuals can publicly blog unsubstantiated claims against pretty much an unlimited number of organisations and individuals. I fear for the people running these blogs, they probably have good intent, but they could well find themselves on the end of very serious and very substantial defamation cases.

It's an oldy but a goody, two wrongs do not make a right!
The Attorney General no less, has identified himself as the man at the centre of historical rape allegations.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 04, 2021, 08:38:06 am
The Attorney General no less, has identified himself as the man at the centre of historical rape allegations.
As much as I love it, this is an example of where The Conversation has run off the rails;

Quote from: The Conversation
So what now? Well, for one thing, says Michelle Arrow, women need to harness the rage that has built up in recent weeks. And that means turning the fury into a list of concrete demands for change, just as the women’s movement did in the 1970s. Rage is politically potent, and useful. But to make the most of it they need not only to get angry — they need to get organised.
The call is that there is no justice or that justice has failed, but there is no evidence either just an accusation unsupported by evidence, the plethora of voices offer unsupported opinion not evidence, the paragraph effectively calls for mob rule not really a demand for justice because there is no burden of proof in any of the demands.

The question of guilt is irrelevant in this, for me the problem is the procedural issues they want to bypass to allow the court of media and social media to rule.

I'm all for change, but it can't come at the potential persecution of the innocent in the absence of proof, it's somewhat ironic that the left calls for this given they demand we free teenage criminals caught in the act, but they want to hang draw and quarter the old white man without proof!

I read once that a female comedian made the feminist call in the USA, "Kill all white men", but qualified the call to arms with the disclaimer, " ........... but not my dad!" Apparently it was a joke, yet if I were to light heartedly include in a joke, "Do you think your ar5e looks big in that ..................................!" it's not so much funny and far more a misogynist sexual innuendo! Such is the hypocrisy of social media!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 04, 2021, 09:49:12 am
Drunk on power LP.  Kenneally and SHY leading the charge of course.

EDIT - Should add that wasn't a political comment, but it was on personalities
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 04, 2021, 10:53:13 am
Drunk on power LP.  Kenneally and SHY leading the charge of course.

EDIT - Should add that wasn't a political comment, but it was on personalities
As a casual observer, I just do not understand the thought that they can publicly make those assertions and not have some regard for the possibility the claims are false, based on the public evidence it's a coin toss! I gather that is why the police withdrew the charges, they nothing to work with!

If an enquiry is launched and clears Porter, surely the risk is the blow torch turns to the accusers, as discussed in that other famous thread freedom of speech does not engender freedom from responsibility or consequence. There are those already labelling the in media debate around "due process" as "Mansplaining", this is not what humanity represents.

I appreciate there is no justice for a person who takes their own life, and that applies equally whether the reasons given are real or imaginary!

I'm very sensitive to this, because I know a family with a young lad who was falsely accused of similar and almost took his life over it. Years later after some external events the young girl tried to unsuccessfully kill herself, she couldn't live with her own conscience and in recovery admitted making it all up to defend her honour to her parents. The fear of social media repercussions where the ultimate driver in both events! The social pressure for her to be perceived as a good girl, untarnished in her own cultural circles, drove the events that unfolded over many years.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 04, 2021, 10:58:22 am
It’s interesting that murder charges proceed without the victim but rape cases can’t.

I know that the rape victim’s testimony is important in establishing whether or not the act was consensual but it still seems to me that other forms of evidence may be equally relevant.

I noticed that the SA coroner has determined that the police report into the victim’s death is inadequate and has directed that further investigations be made.

I had another look at the Four Corners report and it would make me very uncomfortable if Porter was in close proximity to any of my female family members.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 04, 2021, 11:09:15 am
I had another look at the Four Corners report and it would make me very uncomfortable if Porter was in close proximity to any of my female family members.
I'd be cautious, it looks to me like the media have mashed together a series of rumours, but all built form the same basic premise but distorted in a pass the message manner. The tell for me is that the reports in the main stream media seem to contradict.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 04, 2021, 02:10:53 pm
Looks like developments on this front.  Hmmm ....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 04, 2021, 02:21:48 pm
It’s interesting that murder charges proceed without the victim but rape cases can’t.

I know that the rape victim’s testimony is important in establishing whether or not the act was consensual but it still seems to me that other forms of evidence may be equally relevant.

I noticed that the SA coroner has determined that the police report into the victim’s death is inadequate and has directed that further investigations be made.

I had another look at the Four Corners report and it would make me very uncomfortable if Porter was in close proximity to any of my female family members.
Agree, watching Porter is uncomfortable and I just kept thinking of that poor girl/woman and her sad passing and what her family are going through with all this rehash of events. The age factor bothers me ....
ScoMo has a few issues on his plate with his bonehead minister Linda Reynolds making some offensive comments that have come to light about the parliment staffer who also claims to have been raped.The Minister should resign IMO based on her comments..disgraceful, I wouldnt want my children working in any parliamentary dept based on her attitude.
I dont have a lot of confidence the truth will come out in any of the above and I just expected better in this day and age...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 04, 2021, 02:42:50 pm
I'd be cautious, it looks to me like the media have mashed together a series of rumours, but all built form the same basic premise but distorted in a pass the message manner. The tell for me is that the reports in the main stream media seem to contradict.

The Four Corners report is based on the observations of folk who worked and/or were associated with Porter and on things he wrote or said and are on public record.  Rumours aren't part of the Four Corners narrative.  We know Turnbull warned Porter about his inappropriate behaviour with young women and Turnbull must have know that it was Porter when he called on the then unnamed Minister to own up and explain his relationship with the victim.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 04, 2021, 02:47:02 pm
Agree, watching Porter is uncomfortable and I just kept thinking of that poor girl/woman and her sad passing and what her family are going through with all this rehash of events. The age factor bothers me ....
ScoMo has a few issues on his plate with his bonehead minister Linda Reynolds making some offensive comments that have come to light about the parliment staffer who also claims to have been raped.The Minister should resign IMO based on her comments..disgraceful, I wouldnt want my children working in any parliamentary dept based on her attitude.
I dont have a lot of confidence the truth will come out in any of the above and I just expected better in this day and age...


It is a toxic workplace EB.  The behaviour and attitudes of those at the top of the foodchain do little to inspire respect and common decency among run of the mill MPs and the staffers.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 04, 2021, 05:44:22 pm
https://theconversation.com/can-scott-morrisons-rhetorical-style-cut-through-the-rising-tide-of-anger-156220
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on March 04, 2021, 06:13:02 pm
So Dutton chimes in with the comment, on Porter's media appearance, "...a good performance..." :o

One of the most incisive and pertinent comments I read a few posts back was from David (DJC), referring to the fact that a court case can go ahead for murder but not a deceased alleged rape victim, or words to that effect. So many in our world have absolutely no comprehension as to the on-going, dreadful impact of rape on a any human being.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 04, 2021, 06:37:35 pm
Agree, watching Porter is uncomfortable and I just kept thinking of that poor girl/woman and her sad passing and what her family are going through with all this rehash of events. The age factor bothers me ....
ScoMo has a few issues on his plate with his bonehead minister Linda Reynolds making some offensive comments that have come to light about the parliment staffer who also claims to have been raped.The Minister should resign IMO based on her comments..disgraceful, I wouldnt want my children working in any parliamentary dept based on her attitude.
I dont have a lot of confidence the truth will come out in any of the above and I just expected better in this day and age...

This scandal will bring Scomo down, you watch.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 04, 2021, 08:02:37 pm
We'll hear more, that's for certain.

I still hate our Federal Government centralized in CBR.   Drag 'em out and force them to live among real people.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on March 04, 2021, 10:37:40 pm
There are no winners here.

The problem is that the vast majority of assault allegations are probably true.
What reason would you put yourself through the associated trauma of investigation and trial if they weren't true
Two reasons only....in an unstable mind you believe the assault did occur or revenge/vindictiveness.
The woman involved has taken her own life...apparently shortly after she said she didn't want to proceed with the allegation, so you would have to think that this episode had a profound effect on her subsequent actions.

On the other hand if you're innocent of  such an allegation, your life and career are virtually over.
Imagine the feeling you would have if you were accused of something like that and it hadn't occurred.
In the court of public opinion you're already tried and convicted.
Porter's position is untenable.
He's a marked man...investigation or not.
Mentally he's shot and he has no future.
Folks have already made up their minds.

For Morrison he's damaged by his inaction... but what would an independent investigation establish?
There are two people who know what happened some thirty  years ago.
One is dead, the other vehemently denies the events occurred....everything else is second hand.
Folks making judgements based on body language or past perceptions should carry little weight because these could well be based on personal bias or negative interactions with the individual.
In the end such an enquiry may make a determination of likely guilt...the  decision would probably be based on a much looser form of evidence than a criminal trial.
But having already determined there is no case would the police look at further action...doubtful!

Bottom line is that a woman has taken her life, Porter (guilty or not) is forever marked, Morrison is left damaged....you can only imagine at the distress of the poor woman's family.

The thing that concerns me is that we're left with this dilemma.
We have to have a system that allows victims of sexual assault to feel comfortable in coming forward with their allegations...and have an expectation of receiving a fair hearing and justice.
On the other hand we're heading towards a situation where an allegation alone is enough to destroy a career, mental health and in some cases a life.
I don't know how you manage that.

No winners.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 04, 2021, 11:08:18 pm
Perfect summary Lods.  No way out of this for anyone
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 04, 2021, 11:10:24 pm
I think we should be careful about assumptions of the victim's cause of death.  The SA Coroner has ordered the police to conduct further enquiries under the guidance of Counsel assisting the Coroner.  The Coroner has also indicated that an inquest may be held into her death.  If that does happen, it could effectively become an inquiry into Porter's role in the matter.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Micky0 on March 04, 2021, 11:52:09 pm
I thought Toby Abbott was the worst PM we could ever have thrown at us, but Scumo continues to show his utter inability to be a good leader, heck, a good person.

Reynolds, Dutton, Tudge, Porter - awful people.

It’s sad that Australian Federal Politics has become so crap - hopefully big big changes are coming.  It is time for this collective bag if crap to be dumped.

Re the allegation, can’t imagine why anyone would make something up 30+ years ago and never really do anything about it, except be tortured by it over 3 decades, personally. Why would someone do that? The 4 corners report included a barrister that is in the same work circles as myself and I have it on very good authority she had absolutely zero to gain in coming forward to tell what she knew of Porter and his disregard for women.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on March 05, 2021, 06:39:50 am
@ Lods

Great post. Also we, as a society, are losers in that we are unable to provide justice for a victim of a terrible crime whilst also safeguarding the principle of innocent until proven guilty and avoiding trial by media/mob.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 05, 2021, 06:35:32 pm
https://theconversation.com/kathleen-folbiggs-children-likely-died-of-natural-causes-not-murder-heres-the-evidence-my-team-found-156487

Amazing on a few fronts.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 08, 2021, 04:35:30 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/16/france-centuries-old-oaks-rebuild-spire-notre-dame-fire-trees

I like the French, and I've been a Francophile for ages, but like my position on Robert Walls, I'm starting to have second thoughts.

This is stupid.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 08, 2021, 05:07:54 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/16/france-centuries-old-oaks-rebuild-spire-notre-dame-fire-trees

I like the French, and I've been a Francophile for ages, but like my position on Robert Walls, I'm starting to have second thoughts.

This is stupid.
What's the issue Pauly? This is an exception to the rule I would imagine, an exception for something of historical significance such as Notre Dame. I could understand why they want to restore/rebuild it with aged oak. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 08, 2021, 05:23:33 pm
What's the issue Pauly? This is an exception to the rule I would imagine, an exception for something of historical significance such as Notre Dame. I could understand why they want to restore/rebuild it with aged oak. Am I missing something?

Partly personal opinion about materials and architecture, and partly about cutting down 1000 trees that are hundreds of years old. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 08, 2021, 05:34:36 pm
Partly personal opinion about materials and architecture, and partly about cutting down 1000 trees that are hundreds of years old. 
Fair enough. I must say, having a been to France a number of of times, when you go through the small towns and rural areas, they are very good with their green space management and forests. But I take your point.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 08, 2021, 07:35:47 pm
Didn't the Queen do the same thing after the 1992 Windsor Castle fire and her annus horribilis?  No-one objected to that and IMHO, same applies to Notre Dame.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on March 08, 2021, 08:46:14 pm
Notre Dame is an icon of western culture and should be restored to its former glory imo. Having visited it about 10 years ago, I was devastated when the fire occurred. It's a great shame that many ancient and proud oaks will have to be sacrificed but sometimes we need to do painful things. Over time those trees can be replaced.

Vivre la France!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 08, 2021, 09:37:26 pm
Partly personal opinion about materials and architecture, and partly about cutting down 1000 trees that are hundreds of years old.
 
I'm afraid @PaulP‍ religion has no morals, if some religious holiday said eat wild turtles, they'd eat them to the very last and anyone resisting would be racist, ......................... hang on! :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 08, 2021, 09:44:53 pm
There is such a thing as sustainable logging.  So long as each oak cut down is replaced with a new one (say 2 for good measure)  then what's the issue?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on March 08, 2021, 09:47:37 pm
There is such a thing as sustainable logging.  So long as each oak cut down is replaced with a new one (say 2 for good measure)  then what's the issue?

I don't disagree with you, but playing devils advocate.

Thats like knocking down an old house in the inner suburbs and replacing them with 2 townhouses.

Its not quite the same. ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 08, 2021, 09:50:51 pm
There is such a thing as sustainable logging.  So long as each oak cut down is replaced with a new one (say 2 for good measure)  then what's the issue?
 Why not source plantation oak, it already exists but it's foreign but it's British plantations, are the French prejudice against British Oak?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on March 08, 2021, 09:53:19 pm
I don't disagree with you, but playing devils advocate.

Thats like knocking down an old house in the inner suburbs and replacing them with 2 townhouses.

Its not quite the same. ;)

Gee, I hope they don't call in A.V. Jennings to knock down Notre Dame and put up a couple of prefabbed hot gospelling halls!!  :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 08, 2021, 09:53:42 pm
I don't disagree with you, but playing devils advocate.

Thats like knocking down an old house in the inner suburbs and replacing them with 2 townhouses.

Its not quite the same. ;)

Not quite, the oak tree only has a life of 100 to 300 years if they cut closer to the 250 year mark then effectively this is sustainable logging in practice.

Beats the last reason they cut them down which was for the grandeur of the French fleet.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 08, 2021, 09:54:59 pm
Not quite, the oak tree only has a life of 100 to 300 years if they cut closer to the 250 year mark then effectively this is sustainable logging in practice.

Beats the last reason they cut them down which was for the grandeur of the French fleet.
They can harvest them from somewhere they aren't native, from somewhere they were deliberately imported to preserve a supply of timber for ship building.

They're not native to Melbourne, and they are cutting down 100 year old trees left right and centre to kill off a foreign beetle. FFS, to Melbourne Greenies Oaks are a pest species, they wanted them cut down last year to preserve a concrete carbon reducing bike path from root damage!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on March 08, 2021, 09:55:53 pm
Why not source plantation oak, it already exists but it's foreign but it's British plantations, are the French prejudice against British Oak?

Tudor monarchs had most of the oak forests of southern England felled to build their warships. Notre Dame would be a somewhat nobler cause.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 08, 2021, 10:00:03 pm
If those up in arms read the last two paragraphs of this article I think they might change their tune.

We have people who own over 600 acres of French forests lining up to donate and are happy to be associated.

Considering we are talking about 1000 trees of a very specific size, I think they'll happily have this covered.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 08, 2021, 10:40:57 pm
Tudor monarchs had most of the oak forests of southern England felled to build their warships. Notre Dame would be a somewhat nobler cause.
Britain felled a fair chunk of Australia's forests as well back in the day, Vic Ash was prized for ship building and Britain needed timber! A lot of other local timbers were just turned into charcoal and shipped back.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 09, 2021, 10:18:51 am
Partly personal opinion about materials and architecture, and partly about cutting down 1000 trees that are hundreds of years old. 

They are plantation trees that were intended to be harvested Paul.  I don’t really see a problem, provided their loss is offset by more plantings.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 09, 2021, 11:19:48 am
The information that is publicly available is not thorough, so it's hard to be definitive. But the best I can determine is as follows :

1. The trees are coming from old growth forests. The number of such forests is significantly less now than when the Cathedral was built, and together with obvious knowledge about climate change and the benefits of such forests, the French should be looking elsewhere.
2. Everything that needs to be achieved can be achieved by using materials that don't come from old growth forests. All the structural integrity, all the beauty, all the fireproofing, all the intricacy can be achieved by other means.
3. There's a lot more that goes on in forests other than trees. They are full blown ecosystems in every sense of the word.
4. There is no logic in the sustainable logging argument. We could also argue that the world is overcrowded, so therefore we should knock off all those over 80, because they'll be dead soon anyway. Sustainable sapien management.
5. This is simply a vote buying exercise by Emmanuel Macarone - he doesn't want to be seen as the cheapskate who shortchanged a national treasure.
6. There is a line of thinking from William Morris, through John Ruskin, Carlo Scarpa and others, that openly frowns upon slavish imitation / reconstruction of heritage items. From the manifesto of the SPAB (Society for the Preservation of Ancient Buildings), written in 1877 by Morris, Philip Webb and others, right through to own own Burra Charter, the very conditions of the time give materials and the working and usage of those materials a unique flavour that cannot be convincingly replicated later. Those of us who remember the faux convict bricks from the 80's will know exactly what I mean - they look empty and humbug because that's exactly what they are. We build for our time, with our knowledge, our materials, our skills and our circumstances.

At least that's how I see it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on March 09, 2021, 11:56:33 am
My understanding is that younger trees 'suck in' more CO2 than older ones.  Obviously, younger trees and forests don't have as great an ecosystem.

There is a difference between French, US, Russian oak - just ask the winemakers and whiskey makers!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 09, 2021, 12:22:28 pm
Not “old growth” Paul, old plantations that were established to provide timber for wooden warships.

I don’t believe “old growth” forests are a thing in much of Western Europe.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 09, 2021, 01:09:17 pm
The information that is publicly available is not thorough, so it's hard to be definitive. But the best I can determine is as follows :

1. The trees are coming from old growth forests. The number of such forests is significantly less now than when the Cathedral was built, and together with obvious knowledge about climate change and the benefits of such forests, the French should be looking elsewhere.
2. Everything that needs to be achieved can be achieved by using materials that don't come from old growth forests. All the structural integrity, all the beauty, all the fireproofing, all the intricacy can be achieved by other means.
3. There's a lot more that goes on in forests other than trees. They are full blown ecosystems in every sense of the word.
4. There is no logic in the sustainable logging argument. We could also argue that the world is overcrowded, so therefore we should knock off all those over 80, because they'll be dead soon anyway. Sustainable sapien management.
5. This is simply a vote buying exercise by Emmanuel Macarone - he doesn't want to be seen as the cheapskate who shortchanged a national treasure.
6. There is a line of thinking from William Morris, through John Ruskin, Carlo Scarpa and others, that openly frowns upon slavish imitation / reconstruction of heritage items. From the manifesto of the SPAB (Society for the Preservation of Ancient Buildings), written in 1877 by Morris, Philip Webb and others, right through to own own Burra Charter, the very conditions of the time give materials and the working and usage of those materials a unique flavour that cannot be convincingly replicated later. Those of us who remember the faux convict bricks from the 80's will know exactly what I mean - they look empty and humbug because that's exactly what they are. We build for our time, with our knowledge, our materials, our skills and our circumstances.

At least that's how I see it.
Thanks for that Pauly.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 09, 2021, 01:57:01 pm
Not “old growth” Paul, old plantations that were established to provide timber for wooden warships.

I don’t believe “old growth” forests are a thing in much of Western Europe.

We can argue about what constitutes "old growth" but wikipedia still lists several old growth forests in France, a number of which include Oak species.

The flying buttresses were great structural innovations (there's debate about whether they started as that, or evolved into it). Instead of simply copying the massive walls and small openings of Romanesque architecture, the Gothic builders tried advancing the form. The walls were no longer load bearing, and thus not only became thinner, but also allowed for more glass, in larger openings. Part of the inspiration for this was indeed the forest - flying buttresses mimicking the trees, and the glass mimicking the light between the tree canopies.

The French should take a cue from those masons and builders.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 09, 2021, 02:55:56 pm
https://theconversation.com/5-ways-to-spot-if-someone-is-trying-to-mislead-you-when-it-comes-to-science-138814

Well worth reading IMO.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 09, 2021, 03:00:36 pm
https://theconversation.com/why-pope-franciss-historic-trip-to-iraq-was-a-mission-of-peace-over-politics-156647

I like what i see from this guy, but I can't figure out if he's the real deal or simply the velvet glove over the iron fist.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 09, 2021, 06:23:06 pm
https://theconversation.com/5-ways-to-spot-if-someone-is-trying-to-mislead-you-when-it-comes-to-science-138814

Well worth reading IMO.
I'm afraid this article uses the very same tactics he criticises, there are a lot of good resources for scientists to use while framing outreach and public commentary, this article might not be one of them! Maybe the author is taking the piss!

He doesn't even match written commentary to the headlines, example;

4. Overly simplistic explanations
.........................
Conspiracy theories, such as the one suggesting 5G is the cause of COVID-19, take off because they offer a simple explanation for something frightening and complex. This particular claim also feeds into concerns some people may have about new technologies.

As a general rule, when something appears too good or too bad to be true, it usually is.

I'm particularly disturbed by 3. Reference to ‘the science not being settled’. Science is never settled, consensus based on current evidence and understanding can be achieved, but the science is never settled.

If science was settled we(humanity) would be able to predict the future of many events with near perfection, but good science always reports facts in terms of probabilities not certainties!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 09, 2021, 10:41:40 pm
I'm afraid this article uses the very same tactics he criticises.

You can say that again.  Ridiculous hypocrisy and reeks of patronising condescension.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on March 10, 2021, 09:46:46 am
https://theconversation.com/5-ways-to-spot-if-someone-is-trying-to-mislead-you-when-it-comes-to-science-138814

Well worth reading IMO.

The article's author, Hassan Vally, I believe, means well... but we have an epidemiologist attempting to unpack and explain narcissistic behaviour. He's better leaving that to someone/people well trained in the 'tactics' and 'strategies' of the narcissist or narcissistic behaviour. It's not something that can be simplistically bullet-pointed to 5 strategies.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 11, 2021, 12:07:14 pm
The Notre Dame spire that burned down in 2019 is not even the original spire. The original spire became so damaged over a few centuries that it was removed - the removal was completed in 1792. The Cathedral remained "spireless" for decades until a new spire was completed in 1859. I guess it wasn't a big deal back then to leave the Cathedral without a spire for ages.

I object on principle to what is in my view a needless destruction of beautiful old trees to replace a replica.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 11, 2021, 12:29:28 pm
The Notre Dame spire that burned down in 2019 is not even the original spire. The original spire became so damaged over a few centuries that it was removed - the removal was completed in 1792. The Cathedral remained "spireless" for decades until a new spire was completed in 1859. I guess it wasn't a big deal back then to leave the Cathedral without a spire for ages.

I object on principle to what is in my view a needless destruction of beautiful old trees to replace a replica.

Interesting.

Just for context France back then:

In 1789 the estates general was held leading to a period know as the French revolution which lasted until roughly 1799, and in the process, the French monarchy was overthrown.  I imagine a spire was indeed quite irrelevant for the people at the time.

In 1792 was the proclamation of the first French republic.

Quote
Revolution and the church

Historian John McManners argues "in eighteenth-century France, throne and altar were commonly spoken of as in close alliance; their simultaneous collapse ... would one day provide the final proof of their interdependence." One suggestion is that after a century of persecution, some French Protestants actively supported an anti-Catholic regime, a resentment fuelled by Enlightenment thinkers such as Voltaire.[64] Philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau wrote it was "manifestly contrary to the law of nature... that a handful of people should gorge themselves with superfluities while the hungry multitude goes in want of necessities."[65]
In this caricature, monks and nuns enjoy their new freedom after the decree of 16 February 1790.

The Revolution caused a massive shift of power from the Catholic Church to the state; although the extent of religious belief has been questioned, elimination of tolerance for religious minorities meant by 1789 being French also meant being Catholic.[66] The church was the largest individual landowner in France, controlling nearly 10% of all estates and levied tithes, effectively a 10% tax on income, collected from peasant farmers in the form of crops. In return, it provided a minimal level of social support.[67]

This would have been remarkable given the climate of France at the time, and explains the reason why it took them so long to restore the spire.

Even so, it fails to take into account that tourism is extremely important, and Notre Dame, would be one of the Parisian highlights and must do's.  I think its important we not underestimate this fact.  You are free to object on principle, but just for context, Australia during that period wasnt even a fledgling nation, it was a penal colony.

There has been an immense amount of change from 1900 to today, so thinking that the previous 100 years had very little change is fraught with danger.


Its not like they are Brazil setting fire to the Amazon in order to increase the amount of farmable land.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 11, 2021, 01:06:54 pm
The Notre Dame spire that burned down in 2019 is not even the original spire. The original spire became so damaged over a few centuries that it was removed - the removal was completed in 1792. The Cathedral remained "spireless" for decades until a new spire was completed in 1859. I guess it wasn't a big deal back then to leave the Cathedral without a spire for ages.

I object on principle to what is in my view a needless destruction of beautiful old trees to replace a replica.
Humanity and society are not witnesses beyond a lifetime.

Just curious @PaulP‍ , if the Oak came from plantations and not old growth forests would it be OK, even if those plantations are 100 or more years old, or is cutting down any living 100 year old tree morally offensive?

If so where to on green sustainability, we are told these days to use wood, paper bags, paper straws, paper fibre based cutlery, etc., etc.?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 11, 2021, 01:17:32 pm
Humanity and society are not witnesses beyond a lifetime.

Just curious @PaulP‍ , if the Oak came from plantations and not old growth forests would it be OK, even if those plantations are 100 or more years old, or is cutting down any living one hundred year old tree morally offensive?

If so where to on green sustainability, we are told these days to use wood, paper bags, paper straws, paper based cutlery, etc., etc.!

My first preference would be a worldwide architectural / engineering competition calling for inventive, innovative solutions that both reflect the contemporary situation and advance the discipline further. Failing that, using recycled wood would be a much better option. I'm sure the French government can marshall its considerable resources to source top notch recycled wood. This type of approach has the potential to achieve a domino effect, and become a touchtone, a reference project for how such issues may be handled in the future.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on March 11, 2021, 01:26:34 pm
Much of the timber in my house is recycled.  However it does present its own challenges in that you are limited to what is available and what you can get. This can result in a lot of extra work in tailoring it to suit and can add quite a bit of extra cost and time. If it were used more generally then I would think supplies would be rapidly exhausted and in the meantime the demand for the skills required to work with it would skyrocket. All worth it though on a limited scale.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 11, 2021, 01:41:07 pm
My first preference would be a worldwide architectural / engineering competition calling for inventive, innovative solutions that both reflect the contemporary situation and advance the discipline further. Failing that, using recycled wood would be a much better option. I'm sure the French government can marshall its considerable resources to source top notch recycled wood. This type of approach has the potential to achieve a domino effect, and become a touchtone, a reference project for how such issues may be handled in the future.
@PaulP You'll forgive me for asking though, but I suspect your perspective comes from more than just a spire on a single cathedral, what of the bigger picture?

Is there an acceptable solution?

If they went down your preferred competition path and the green answer was cutting 100 year old plantation oaks, is that accepted?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 11, 2021, 05:41:37 pm
@PaulP You'll forgive me for asking though, but I suspect your perspective comes from more than just a spire on a single cathedral, what of the bigger picture?

Is there an acceptable solution?

If they went down your preferred competition path and the green answer was cutting 100 year old plantation oaks, is that accepted?

I think the bigger picture is that the French could use this as an opportunity to do something more than a rebuild, and use it as an opportunity to move beyond a fairly staid tired provincialism.

Plantation oaks would be a last resort IMO.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 11, 2021, 05:43:05 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2021/mar/11/forcing-job-seekers-to-move-is-not-just-bad-policy-it-does-nothing-to-address-the-economys-real-problems

Another neoliberal substituting talkback and water cooler cr@ap with actual policy.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on March 11, 2021, 06:00:06 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2021/mar/11/forcing-job-seekers-to-move-is-not-just-bad-policy-it-does-nothing-to-address-the-economys-real-problems

Another neoliberal substituting talkback and water cooler cr@ap with actual policy.

Holy mackerel. What's next? Bringing back the Stolen Generation policy... for the good of Indigenous Aussies, of course!

This adversarial attitude toward the unemployed is disappointing. Yes, there are 'bludgers' but they are such a small % of unemployed. Just one 'what about' would be what this approach could do to families? Communities? So arrogant, so ignorant, so narrow.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 11, 2021, 06:39:42 pm
Holy mackerel. What's next? Bringing back the Stolen Generation policy... for the good of Indigenous Aussies, of course!

This adversarial attitude toward the unemployed is disappointing. Yes, there are 'bludgers' but they are such a small % of unemployed. Just one 'what about' would be what this approach could do to families? Communities? So arrogant, so ignorant, so narrow.

The amount of taxpayer money stolen by those at the bottom end, i.e those ghastly "welfare cheats" (yawn.....), is a trifle compared to the taxpayer money stolen by those at the top end.

In the 60's and 70's, most individual income tax was paid by the wealthy, based on the shocking logic that those have more should contribute more. This has shifted dramatically in the last 40 years, with a few negative implications, at least for us poor, suffering slobs.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 12, 2021, 08:43:49 pm
Anyone know a good roofing plumber down the Mornington Peninsula? Got a tricky flashing/guttering problem I need resolved.
Any info would be appreciated.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 12, 2021, 09:00:32 pm
The amount of taxpayer money stolen by those at the bottom end, i.e those ghastly "welfare cheats" (yawn.....), is a trifle compared to the taxpayer money stolen by those at the top end.

In the 60's and 70's, most individual income tax was paid by the wealthy, based on the shocking logic that those have more should contribute more. This has shifted dramatically in the last 40 years, with a few negative implications, at least for us poor, suffering slobs.

Along with bracket creep
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on March 12, 2021, 10:39:58 pm
Capcom, what about bracket creep?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on April 07, 2021, 12:52:10 pm
I got to about 20 minutes, and stopped watching. Frightening and very depressing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4mDx2XitJw&t=3s
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on April 13, 2021, 08:08:52 pm
Just watched one of Richard Wolff's latest videos. Apparently the Democrats (read : Sanders) proposal to introduce a $15/hour minimum wage has been defeated twice in congress. It's been watered down such that the increase will occur incrementally - the $15 will only be reached by 2025. Apparently 8 Democrats crossed the floor to vote with the GOP.

The current US minimum wage is $7.25/hr, among the lowest in the industrialised world. Joke of a country.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on April 13, 2021, 10:32:45 pm
Just watched one of Richard Wolff's latest videos. Apparently the Democrats (read : Sanders) proposal to introduce a $15/hour minimum wage has been defeated twice in congress. It's been watered down such that the increase will occur incrementally - the $15 will only be reached by 2025. Apparently 8 Democrats crossed the floor to vote with the GOP.

The current US minimum wage is $7.25/hr, among the lowest in the industrialised world. Joke of a country.
I believe that the state can have their own 'minimum wage' over and above what is mandated.

Not sure how many states pay overs, but it does occur.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 04, 2021, 07:58:26 am
And the media keep telling you, money buys you happiness!

Bill and Melinda Gates split!
https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/bill-gates-and-melinda-gates-to-end-their-marriage-20210504-p57om4.html
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 04, 2021, 08:48:29 am
Surely he must have had some Intel on this ....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: deepbluesee on May 05, 2021, 09:47:59 pm
ABC show 'You can't ask that' this week featured AFL and NRL ex players. Well worth a look. Some tough Qs and very open and honest answers. Brock McClean was one of the ex players
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on May 05, 2021, 10:47:32 pm
ABC show 'You can't ask that' this week featured AFL and NRL ex players. Well worth a look. Some tough Qs and very open and honest answers. Brock McClean was one of the ex players

Not a show I normally watch but I did tonight and I thought it was great.  The footballers were all honest, articulate and interesting.

From a Carlton perspective, Brock’s admissions about depression, bulimia, drinking and drug abuse were concerning but not surprising.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Micky0 on May 05, 2021, 11:40:14 pm
ABC show 'You can't ask that' this week featured AFL and NRL ex players. Well worth a look. Some tough Qs and very open and honest answers. Brock McClean was one of the ex players
Just watched it - excellent!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 06, 2021, 02:12:22 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/faithful-morrison-says-one-thing-but-does-another-20210505-p57p4l.html
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on May 06, 2021, 06:45:16 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/faithful-morrison-says-one-thing-but-does-another-20210505-p57p4l.html

Had a good chuckle as I read this article this arvo.

ScoMo - the very definition of hypocrisy, which the article from J Hewson articulates very well.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: flyboy77 on May 06, 2021, 09:43:27 pm
Had a good chuckle as I read this article this arvo.

ScoMo - the very definition of hypocrisy, which the article from J Hewson articulates very well.

He's a dud, no question, yet miles ahead of Albo.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on May 06, 2021, 10:25:35 pm
Fly - it's a problem when oppositions of any persuasion are no good.  Incompetent govs can get away with too much.  It will be interesting to see what happens in WA over the next 15 years.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 06, 2021, 10:32:31 pm
I wouldn't confine it to WA @dodge .... seems everyone is getting it in the neck :)

Fine by me.  They all deserve it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on May 06, 2021, 11:47:44 pm
Agree
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 07, 2021, 08:10:47 am
All Australian Gov are mired in archaic practises, it's like they use training data from the 1800s to become a politician.

The biggest tell is that both major sides think there is a future in digging shizen out of the ground and selling cheaper than the nearest competitors!

I had to laugh when Boris told Scotty to dump coal and build nuclear, he should have told Scotty to build a spine first!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on May 07, 2021, 08:24:14 am
Had a good chuckle as I read this article this arvo.

ScoMo - the very definition of hypocrisy, which the article from J Hewson articulates very well.

You have to wonder at the thought processes the religious right must wrestle with to justify policies and actions that conflict with their faith.  I guess it depends on how perverted their particular brand of religion has become.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 07, 2021, 10:24:23 am
He's a dud, no question, yet miles ahead of Albo.
The thought of an Albo or Shorten being our leader makes me physically ill.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on May 07, 2021, 10:34:54 am
You have to wonder at the thought processes the religious right must wrestle with to justify policies and actions that conflict with their faith.  I guess it depends on how perverted their particular brand of religion has become.


Very flexible morality!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 07, 2021, 10:37:15 am
As sadly pathetic and unelectable as those two clowns are, imagine Karen Rudd or Turnbull @Gointocarlton    
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 07, 2021, 10:39:50 am
As sadly pathetic and unelectable as those two clowns are, imagine Karen Rudd or Turnbull @Gointocarlton    
Rudd had a head I just want to smack. Turnbull turned into a bigger imbecile than he already was.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 07, 2021, 10:57:39 am
I hope Rudd's and Turnbull's demands for a Murdoch Royal Commission are successful.

Rudd had pretty decent policies IMO. His demeanour can be a little grating, but that should never be a factor in how you vote.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 07, 2021, 11:17:28 am
Rudd had a head I just want to smack. Turnbull turned into a bigger imbecile than he already was.

They're both very sick attention seeking puppies.  
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on May 07, 2021, 11:43:49 am
Nothing like politics to polarise folks!

I recall a quote from Einstein that I'll paraphrase, it went something like, 'when someone is blindly loyal to any political party or ideology they no longer need their brain as they will think what they're told to think (by that political party or ideology leader). All they require is a brain stem to breath, walk and eat.' He had a similar opinion for those who declared themselves, 'patriots.'

When I think of Albo, ScoMo, Dutton, Shorten, Cash... etc., all I see are shallow opportunists.

Although I may not agree entirely with their ideologies, I do see (saw) sincerity and a genuine concern for all Aussies from Rudd, Howard, Turnbull, Hawke and a few others. None were perfect.

But I think that the bottom line is that, globally, there are very few 'real' leaders... people of vision, altruism, business acumen, superior negotiation skills, courage and genuine substance. Dare I say that in the modern world we tend to see more boldness and vision from women leaders!!! (Except M. Cash - shallowness and simplistic thinking personified).
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 07, 2021, 11:56:59 am
Einstein was in favour of Socialism.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 07, 2021, 12:00:05 pm
This is his famous essay, first published in 1949, entitled "Why Socialism ?"

https://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 07, 2021, 12:23:50 pm
@PaulP‍ Would you say socialism has roots in some very fundamental religious principles?

I often think about this when I see the likes of ScoMo preach liberal policies, while worshipping socially.

Of course some may claim perhaps what ScoMo and his like really worship, is the business of religion, the capitalist version! This seems to be a philosophical debate that plays out in all religions, I've seen it play out first hand during my years of schooling, and subsequently when some school friends entered then exited the clergy. Victorians might see this demonstrated in the behavioural differences between for example Rev George Pell and Father Bob Macguire.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on May 07, 2021, 12:53:50 pm
Einstein was in favour of Socialism.

Yes, but it was really inspired by humanitarianism which was a great passion of his. Circa 1932 Albert could see what was happening in Germany and started a movement, of sorts, to promote humanitarianism as a way to short-circuit growing nationalism & Hitler. After a fair while, he had 3 signatures! He packed his bags and went to the US at the end of the year.

Highly intelligent (IQ & EI) folks can envision the natural consequences of certain behaviours/movements, generally well before the rank and file.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 07, 2021, 12:54:12 pm
Would you say socialism has roots in some very fundamental religious principles?

I often think about this when I see the likes of ScoMo preach liberal policies, while worshipping socially.

Of course some may claim perhaps what ScoMo and his like really worship, is the business of religion, the capitalist version!

I'm only familiar with Christianity, so I can't comment on others. Also, I don't really like the word "fundamental" when used in religious discussions, for obvious reasons.

I'm not a practising Christian, and haven't been for 30 years. But I do take an interest in contemporary Biblical scholarship. That one simple word "religion" covers an enormous amount of territory. The Bible consists of 66 books (73 in the Catholic version), written over a 1000 year period. Many of the authors are unknown, and whomever they were had no idea they were writing something that would end up in the Bible. Various groups, councils, individuals etc. came together in the early days of Christianity to formalise the faith and put together the books that ended up in the Bible. There are libraries solely dedicated to this history, and suffice to say this isn't the time or place to delve too deeply into this (even if I was familiar with this history, which I'm not, except for the sketchiest of outlines).

One of the problems with the Bible is that it is very uneven, very contradictory. If you want to be literal or bend the rules of interpretation, you can find a quote to justify anything. It's well documented that the Bible has been used to justify slavery, subordination of women, and a whole lot more. But Christianity has done a lot of good. As H. Richard Niebuhr said, religion is a good thing for good people, and a bad thing for bad people.

Getting back to your original question, one could posit a link between socialist ideals and an aspect of Christianity known as the Social Gospel, but I'm not sure that organised Socialist or Communist countries had much use for or interest in religion.

I'm no fan of the ScoMo take on religion, which unfortunately is very common. I think it's infantile. Progressive Christianity tries to emphasise orthopraxy (what you do) rather than orthodoxy (what you believe). I'm not much interested in whether someone believes in the Virgin Birth, or the physical resurrection of Jesus. I'm interested in what they're doing to make the world a better place.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 07, 2021, 12:55:50 pm
Yes, but it was really inspired by humanitarianism which was a great passion of his. Circa 1932 Albert could see what was happening in Germany and started a movement, of sorts, to promote humanitarianism as a way to short-circuit growing nationalism & Hitler. After a fair while, he had 3 signatures! He packed his bags and went to the US at the end of the year.

Highly intelligent (IQ & EI) folks can envision the natural consequences of certain behaviours/movements, generally well before the rank and file.
He perhaps expressed or actioned some significant philosophical contradictions in his life as well.

He's is / was far from a favourite in some circles, something many forgive due to his other achievements.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 07, 2021, 12:59:37 pm

I'm no fan of the ScoMo take on religion, which unfortunately is very common. I think it's infantile. Progressive Christianity tries to emphasise orthopraxy (what you do) rather than orthodoxy (what you believe). I'm not much interested in whether someone believes in the Virgin Birth, or the physical resurrection of Jesus. I'm interested in what they're doing to make the world a better place.
Actions taking precedence over words, in this we are in accord.

In regards to Einstein, the matter of the development and use of nuclear weapons is an interesting conundrum. Some refer to it as a race between two evils, not good versus evil.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on May 07, 2021, 01:00:08 pm
@PaulP‍ Would you say socialism has roots in some very fundamental religious principles?

I often think about this when I see the likes of ScoMo preach liberal policies, while worshipping socially.

Of course some may claim perhaps what ScoMo and his like really worship, is the business of religion, the capitalist version! This seems to be a philosophical debate that plays out in all religions, I've seen it play out first hand during my years of schooling, and subsequently when some school friends entered then exited the clergy. Victorians might see this demonstrated in the behavioural differences between for example Rev George Pell and Father Bob Macguire.[/b]

I had the great pleasure of working with Fr Bob many years ago. You are right, he is the very antithesis of Pell. If all Catholic priests were like Fr Bob the world would be a very different place. Such a down to earth, real person who understood spirituality ...deeply. And a very funny bugger too. We jousted often re footy - he's a one-eyed Rottingwood supporter.

The Church couldn't wait to retire him off, they tried a few times but the congregation outcry was too loud to ignore. He was a thorn in the Church's side with his constant reminders that the Church should be serving the community... out amongst the community... helping anyone and everyone regardless of social standing. He complained that too often priests were serving the Church, themselves and not the community - good way to be unpopular with the hierarchy.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 07, 2021, 01:17:00 pm
Liz Cambage is rallying against the White Wash of the Australian Olympic team promotions.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/basketball/cambage-threatens-tokyo-boycott-over-aoc-s-whitewashed-promo-shoots-20210507-p57prm.html

Firstly, some of the reports put this in an indigenous platform, is Cambage indigenous?

Secondly, given the photos have 7 and 10 athletes respectively, to keep things proportional we have to have 0.23% of an Indigenous person in the 7 athlete photo, and 0.33% of a Indigenous person in the 10 athlete photo. Or combined 0.56% of an Indigenous athlete across both photos.

The use of a whole disabled athlete in both is ridiculously over-representative.

Just a few weeks back I listened to a Indigenous activist from Vic Western District argue you are indigenous if we say your indigenous, and skin colour makes no difference. The debate is so full of hypocrisy I can't pretend to be interested anymore. The Cambage article asserts she tweeted that fake tan doesn't cut it, so true skin colour matters!

There is a lot of absurdity in this debate from all sides even my own! :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 07, 2021, 01:29:11 pm
Nothing like politics to polarise folks!

I recall a quote from Einstein that I'll paraphrase, it went something like, 'when someone is blindly loyal to any political party or ideology they no longer need their brain as they will think what they're told to think (by that political party or ideology leader). All they require is a brain stem to breath, walk and eat.' He had a similar opinion for those who declared themselves, 'patriots.'

When I think of Albo, ScoMo, Dutton, Shorten, Cash... etc., all I see are shallow opportunists.

Although I may not agree entirely with their ideologies, I do see (saw) sincerity and a genuine concern for all Aussies from Rudd, Howard, Turnbull, Hawke and a few others. None were perfect.

But I think that the bottom line is that, globally, there are very few 'real' leaders... people of vision, altruism, business acumen, superior negotiation skills, courage and genuine substance. Dare I say that in the modern world we tend to see more boldness and vision from women leaders!!! (Except M. Cash - shallowness and simplistic thinking personified).
Care for Aussies disappeared when Hawk stopped being PM. Howard had a little bit of care, the rest a pension benefit, attention seeking parasites that I wouldn't feed let alone vote for.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on May 07, 2021, 01:57:21 pm
Politics and politicians are mainly  about representing and looking after vested interests,  and we all know what such vested interests come down to for many people.  True altruism is a rare commodity and as Paul Keating quipped, "Never underestimate the power of self-interest".
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 07, 2021, 02:09:29 pm
Been a desert since Howard .... they just don't 'effin listen.  None of 'em.

And why?  No moral compass, just a "look at me" attitude

Zali Steggall
Sam Dastyari
Bandt
Turnbull

I could list them, but the litter tray is in need of a clean



Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on May 07, 2021, 02:10:30 pm
Liz Cambage is rallying against the White Wash of the Australian Olympic team promotions.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/basketball/cambage-threatens-tokyo-boycott-over-aoc-s-whitewashed-promo-shoots-20210507-p57prm.html

Firstly, some of the reports put this in an indigenous platform, is Cambage indigenous?

Secondly, given the photos have 7 and 10 athletes respectively, to keep things proportional we have to have 0.23% of an Indigenous person in the 7 athlete photo, and 0.33% of a Indigenous person in the 10 athlete photo. Or combined 0.56% of an Indigenous athlete across both photos.

The use of a whole disabled athlete in both is ridiculously over-representative.

Just a few weeks back I listened to a Indigenous activist from Vic Western District argue you are indigenous if we say your indigenous, and skin colour makes no difference. The debate is so full of hypocrisy I can't pretend to be interested anymore. The Cambage article asserts she tweeted that fake tan doesn't cut it, so true skin colour matters!

There is a lot of absurdity in this debate from all sides even my own! :o

I believe Cambage has Nigerian heritage.

Indigenous identity generally requires one to meet three criteria; descent from an Indigenous person, identifying as an Indigenous person and recognition as a member by an Indigenous community.  Skin colour isn't a factor and nor should it be when it's more or less a throw of the dice for folk of mixed genetic origin.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 07, 2021, 02:24:00 pm
Just goes to show the precipitous decline in politics if Howard is now considered an elder statesman. IMO, he did one rally great thing early on, which was the gun control legislation, and that was it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 07, 2021, 03:18:46 pm
Einstein was in favour of Socialism.
Spent a short time working in Russia and some of the breakaway states and a lot of the average folk from the likes of Belarus, Moldova, Estonia etc all wanted to be back in the Soviet Union. So called Freedom isnt much use when nothing works and you are starving, the replacement govts were/are more corrupt than the previous Soviet regimes.
Socialism does have its advantages depending where you are in the world.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 07, 2021, 03:24:14 pm
Spent a short time working in Russia and some of the breakaway states and a lot of the average folk from the likes of Belarus, Moldova, Estonia etc all wanted to be back in the Soviet Union. So called Freedom isnt much use when nothing works and you are starving, the replacement govts were/are more corrupt than the previous Soviet regimes.
Socialism does have its advantages depending where you are in the world.

If we humans don't address our fundamental capacity for evil and self interest, no system can be made to work. Capitalism is a mess at the moment, unless you're part of the lucky 1%.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on May 07, 2021, 05:43:30 pm
If we humans don't address our fundamental capacity for evil and self interest, no system can be made to work. Capitalism is a mess at the moment, unless you're part of the lucky 1%.


Yes, Pauly, we humans are indeed a most paradoxical critter. We are capable of amazing compassion and sacrifice for our fellows in times of trouble - we can band together and work together, tirelessly, for the greater good... but, sadly, it often takes a disaster or common enemy to unite us.

Equally, perhaps even moreso, we're also capable of breathtaking ignorance, narcissism and a most profound violence - to ourselves, others and our ball in the sky. I think it is the Navajo who, in their spirituality, believe that humans are born bad/evil and it is our task in life to find and adopt principles and values that unite for the common good.

If you study, as you and I have, the phenomena of the 'shadow' side of human nature -- introduced with clarity to psychology by Carl Jung -- you'd hardly be optimistic about our future. It takes an enormous amount of personal courage for any individual to so know themselves (Plato) as to understand their own shadow side. Sadly, fear abounds in our world... courage is in short supply.

Of all people, it was Ronald Reagan who once said that the only way humanity will unite is if invaded by aliens from another planet. Says a lot.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 07, 2021, 05:56:10 pm
If we humans don't address our fundamental capacity for evil and self interest, no system can be made to work. Capitalism is a mess at the moment, unless you're part of the lucky 1%.

Thomas Hobbs a philosopher of sorts in 1651 wrote,humans are not hardwired to live together in large scale political societies. We’re not naturally political animals like bees or ants, who instinctively cooperate and work together for the common good. Instead, we’re naturally self-interested and look out for ourselves first and foremost. We care about our reputation, as well as our material wellbeing, and our desire for social standing drives us into conflict as much as competition over scarce resources.
Reckon he might be right , his solution was the following...If we want to live together peacefully, Hobbes argued, we must submit ourselves to an authoritative body with the power to enforce laws and resolve conflicts. Hobbes called this the ‘sovereign’. As long as the sovereign preserves peace then we shouldn’t question or challenge its legitimacy, for that way leads back to the state of nature, the worst possible place we could find ourselves.








Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on May 07, 2021, 11:00:17 pm
I believe Cambage has Nigerian heritage.

Indigenous identity generally requires one to meet three criteria; descent from an Indigenous person, identifying as an Indigenous person and recognition as a member by an Indigenous community.  Skin colour isn't a factor and nor should it be when it's more or less a throw of the dice for folk of mixed genetic origin.

All of the above is way too deep and thoughtful and political for my liking.

I like simple.  I dont see their background, creed, gender, colour or disability when I look at Olympians.  I see a bunch of Aussies who have dedicated their lives to be the best athlete they can be.

A white can be a role model for black and vice versa and all that matters is how they conduct themselves on and off field when competing.

If we focussed more on that, and less on the rest of the crap we'd probably have happier people more often. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on May 07, 2021, 11:27:24 pm
All of the above is way too deep and thoughtful and political for my liking.

I like simple.  I dont see their background, creed, gender, colour or disability when I look at Olympians.  I see a bunch of Aussies who have dedicated their lives to be the best athlete they can be.

A white can be a role model for black and vice versa and all that matters is how they conduct themselves on and off field when competing.

If we focussed more on that, and less on the rest of the crap we'd probably have happier people more often. 

No Thry, it's just how our First Nations people define themselves.  We've taken everything else away from them so why not let them identify themselves as they choose.

Of course, I don't include Cambage's outburst in that, and her disrespect of Maurice Longbottom is appalling.  Her ignorant comments play into the hands of racists like Andrew Blot who focus on skin colour and stereotypical behaviour rather than cultural mores.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on May 08, 2021, 07:55:57 am
I believe that humans have the inbuilt need for a sense of identity even though we exhibit a strong degree of self interest. Basically we are tribal. Trying to manage large and diverse groupings so that everyone feels a sense of fairness and justice calls for us to abandon or change some of the hard wiring that has evolved within. Maybe we have made some progress in this but the challenge certainly remains for future generations, or maybe we’ll slide backwards as existing groupings get reinforced and new groupings emerge. I don’t have the expertise to answer that but I do get a sense that we are approaching a major ideological crossroads.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 08, 2021, 08:16:42 am
Liz Cambage is rallying against the White Wash of the Australian Olympic team promotions.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/basketball/cambage-threatens-tokyo-boycott-over-aoc-s-whitewashed-promo-shoots-20210507-p57prm.html

Firstly, some of the reports put this in an indigenous platform, is Cambage indigenous?

Secondly, given the photos have 7 and 10 athletes respectively, to keep things proportional we have to have 0.23% of an Indigenous person in the 7 athlete photo, and 0.33% of a Indigenous person in the 10 athlete photo. Or combined 0.56% of an Indigenous athlete across both photos.

The use of a whole disabled athlete in both is ridiculously over-representative.

Just a few weeks back I listened to a Indigenous activist from Vic Western District argue you are indigenous if we say your indigenous, and skin colour makes no difference. The debate is so full of hypocrisy I can't pretend to be interested anymore. The Cambage article asserts she tweeted that fake tan doesn't cut it, so true skin colour matters!

There is a lot of absurdity in this debate from all sides even my own! :o
Why do I read this stuff and think she is just a publicity and attention seeking tool? Either she is a complete flog or I am part of the racist white surpremacist regime/movement here in Australia. I know in my mind which one it is.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 08, 2021, 10:35:45 am
Why do I read this stuff and think she is just a publicity and attention seeking tool? Either she is a complete flog or I am part of the racist white surpremacist regime/movement here in Australia. I know in my mind which one it is.
Yes, I admit I worry that another good cause is being corrupted by financial motives, claiming to be a victim or oppressed has become too profitable.

It's a bit ironic coming from Cambage, who grew up in one of Melbourne most elite and wealthy neighbourhoods, but I suggest that won't be mentioned voluntarily in the media and may even be denied or downplayed because it doesn't fi the narrative!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on May 08, 2021, 01:21:24 pm
No Thry, it's just how our First Nations people define themselves.  We've taken everything else away from them so why not let them identify themselves as they choose.

Of course, I don't include Cambage's outburst in that, and her disrespect of Maurice Longbottom is appalling.  Her ignorant comments play into the hands of racists like Andrew Blot who focus on skin colour and stereotypical behaviour rather than cultural mores.

So our first nations people aren't Australian?

So much for inclusiveness....  they will not stop until we bow down to them then??

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on May 08, 2021, 07:38:10 pm
So our first nations people aren't Australian?

So much for inclusiveness....  they will not stop until we bow down to them then??



In fact Thry, they are more Australian than everyone else.  The sooner we all recognise their unique place as the First Australians the sooner we can all move on together.

Meanwhile, Commonwealth Education Minister, Alan Tudge, is concerned that young Australians are learning too much about Indigenous Australians at school.  What a crock of sh1t!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 08, 2021, 08:29:23 pm
Meanwhile, Commonwealth Education Minister, Alan Tudge, is concerned that young Australians are learning too much about Indigenous Australians at school.  What a crock of sh1t!

Perhaps not ... but with our pathetic standards in the 3 Rs and teachers that can't even spell, maybe we'd be better off with a more rounded education in all subjects and scholarly pursuits that might well achieve higher objectives.
  
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on May 09, 2021, 08:31:04 am
In fact Thry, they are more Australian than everyone else.  The sooner we all recognise their unique place as the First Australians the sooner we can all move on together.

Meanwhile, Commonwealth Education Minister, Alan Tudge, is concerned that young Australians are learning too much about Indigenous Australians at school.  What a crock of sh1t!

Equality will never be achieved when someone is more Australian than someone else.

For me, there is only one type of Australian.  Some have other heritage too, and thats what makes our country great, but the second we elevate someone is the second we start holding others back and granting preferential treatment.  That's the antithesis of equality.

Equality is simple.  Practise it and the issues dissappear.  The second you don't you're on the slippery slope to discrimination.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 09, 2021, 08:42:35 am
In fact Thry, they are more Australian than everyone else.  The sooner we all recognise their unique place as the First Australians the sooner we can all move on together.

Meanwhile, Commonwealth Education Minister, Alan Tudge, is concerned that young Australians are learning too much about Indigenous Australians at school.  What a crock of sh1t!
Sack the f-wit immediately if that's true. I have maintained for a long time that we DONT LEARN ENOUGH at school about Indigenous Australia and its culture.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 09, 2021, 08:48:09 am
Perhaps not ... but with our pathetic standards in the 3 Rs and teachers that can't even spell, maybe we'd be better off with a more rounded education in all subjects and scholarly pursuits that might well achieve higher objectives.
  
My wife and daughter are teachers, brilliant ones at that (no bias) so I wouldn't tar them all with the same brush. However, if you want to see how low the standards have plummeted and if you can bring yourself down to the level, purely for investigative purposes, watch a few episodes of Married At First Sight that just finished. There was a young lass on the series that was a teacher, good lord I wouldn't entrust her with teaching a dog/cat let alone a child.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on May 09, 2021, 09:09:50 am
Sack the f-wit immediately if that's true. I have maintained for a long time that we DONT LEARN ENOUGH at school about Indigenous Australia and its culture.

It's an interesting subject.

I remember in my primary school days we did a fair bit of work on the "Australian aborigine".
We studied their food, shelter, weapons and food gathering utensils and art.
It was very much the 'nomadic tribal' perspective.
The urban side of things didn't get a look in

In my last years of teaching there was a significant change and depending on the area I was working there was a lot more focus on local aboriginal history. Indigenous teachers aides and elders all participated in instruction.

One of the issues I found working in Juvenile Justice where my classes were sometimes 100% indigenous (yep, Seriously over represented, but that' another topic) was that we were drawing students from all parts of the state (NSW) and there was a bit of a disconnect between kids from different areas. So lessons had to be of a general nature.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 09, 2021, 09:25:27 am
It's an interesting subject.

I remember in my primary school days we did a fair bit of work on the "Australian aborigine".
We studied their food, shelter, weapons and food gathering utensils and art.
It was very much the 'nomadic tribal' perspective.
The urban side of things didn't get a look in

In my last years of teaching there was a significant change and depending on the area I was working there was a lot more focus on local aboriginal history. Indigenous teachers aides and elders all participated in instruction.

One of the issues I found working in Juvenile Justice where my classes were sometimes 100% indigenous (yep, Seriously over represented, but that' another topic) was that we were drawing students from all parts of the state (NSW) and there was a bit of a disconnect between kids from different areas. So lessons had to be of a general nature.
I was taught zero Lods both at Primary and High School, today I'm appalled by that fact.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on May 09, 2021, 09:28:32 am
Sack the f-wit immediately if that's true. I have maintained for a long time that we DONT LEARN ENOUGH at school about Indigenous Australia and its culture.

Absofcknlutely. And as a part of the curriculum - respect. Respect for their spirituality, their arts and their culture.

I think we're heading in the right direction, and so we should be.

I still cannot fathom folks who are opposed (threatened?) by the emphasis in genuinely acknowledging our indigenous folks. All that is required is the empathy and imagination to truly put yourself in the skin of these folks... and understand what they've been through, who they are, and then, what they have to offer/share. Then acknowledge that difference is okay, in fact, good... we can learn from each other, and share our mutual gifts, then grow together allowing each to their own, surrendering the need to change and convert.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 09, 2021, 10:17:30 am
My wife and daughter are teachers, brilliant ones at that (no bias) so I wouldn't tar them all with the same brush. However, if you want to see how low the standards have plummeted and if you can bring yourself down to the level, purely for investigative purposes, watch a few episodes of Married At First Sight that just finished. There was a young lass on the series that was a teacher, good lord I wouldn't entrust her with teaching a dog/cat let alone a child.

I wouldn't think anyone on those reality shows is a fair representation of their demographic / profession - I haven't looked into it, and nor do I intend to, but I'd bet London to a brick that all those contestants are specifically chosen because they exhibit psychopathic tendencies. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on May 09, 2021, 10:22:13 am
I wouldn't think anyone on those reality shows is a fair representation of their demographic / profession - I haven't looked into it, and nor do I intend to, but I'd bet London to a brick that all those contestants are specifically chosen because they exhibit psychopathic tendencies.

Agree. They are all about gaining audience numbers rather than being attempts to mirror the current state of society. Personally  I never watch, if I can avoid it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on May 09, 2021, 10:54:10 am
My wife and daughter are teachers, brilliant ones at that (no bias) so I wouldn't tar them all with the same brush. However, if you want to see how low the standards have plummeted and if you can bring yourself down to the level, purely for investigative purposes, watch a few episodes of Married At First Sight that just finished. There was a young lass on the series that was a teacher, good lord I wouldn't entrust her with teaching a dog/cat let alone a child.

My three grandsons are at primary school and their school is brilliant.  Their teachers are devoted, energetic and great at imparting knowledge and building a thirst for knowledge (helped by parents and grandparents!).  Their curriculum is much broader than it was back in my day (the dark ages) but that hasn’t hindered reading, writing and mathematics - my oldest grandson is in year 6 and is doing year 8 mathematics.  The fact that his teacher picked up the need to challenge him with more advanced mathematics speaks volumes for him and the school.

Of course there are dud teachers - I had more than my share - but most do a very hard job very well.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 09, 2021, 11:02:06 am
My three grandsons are at primary school and their school is brilliant.  Their teachers are devoted, energetic and great at imparting knowledge and building a thirst for knowledge (helped by parents and grandparents!).  Their curriculum is much broader than it was back in my day (the dark ages) but that hasn’t hindered reading, writing and mathematics - my oldest grandson is in year 6 and is doing year 8 mathematics.  The fact that his teacher picked up the need to challenge him with more advanced mathematics speaks volumes for him and the school.

Of course there are dud teachers - I had more than my share - but most do a very hard job very well.

It's a thankless job. I think teaching kids in primary and selective high schools would be the go. If I was a teacher, I would steer clear of normal high schools. And in the public sector, having savage funding cuts year after year must take its toll after a while. It's a real credit to the teaching profession that our outcomes are at the level they are, all things considered.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 09, 2021, 11:54:12 am
I wouldn't think anyone on those reality shows is a fair representation of their demographic / profession - I haven't looked into it, and nor do I intend to, but I'd bet London to a brick that all those contestants are specifically chosen because they exhibit psychopathic tendencies. 
Nonetheless, he occupation was a teacher and she couldn't string two words together nor pronounce them properly. Like the show, she was embarrassing.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 09, 2021, 12:44:10 pm
My wife and daughter are teachers, brilliant ones at that (no bias) so I wouldn't tar them all with the same brush. However, if you want to see how low the standards have plummeted and if you can bring yourself down to the level, purely for investigative purposes, watch a few episodes of Married At First Sight that just finished. There was a young lass on the series that was a teacher, good lord I wouldn't entrust her with teaching a dog/cat let alone a child.

I don't recall saying that nor ever implying it GTC.  I did learn about Aboriginal culture heavily in 1971 and '72 and got a 98 / A score in the Australian History Matriculation exam later that year.  And a free scholarship to University on the back of the other three "A" scores I managed in other subjects.

But I strongly object to the fantasies of Bruce Pascoe being paraded as fact.

And I was at pains to stress a well rounded education, something that is sadly lacking in today's classrooms.  God knows the number of CVs I've dismissed after a single reading because of grammar and spelling, simple math by mind, not machine ... the very basics of communication.

We have a third grade education system yet all the amenities and comforts never present when I went through high school.  We just had an abundance of quality in the teaching ranks
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on May 09, 2021, 01:48:22 pm
I don't recall saying that nor ever implying it GTC.  I did learn about Aboriginal culture heavily in 1971 and '72 and got a 98 / A score in Matriculation later that year.  And a free scholarship to University on the back of the other three "A" scores I managed in other subjects.

But I strongly object to the fantasies of Bruce Pascoe being paraded as fact.

And I was at pains to stress a well rounded education, something that is sadly lacking in today's classrooms.  God knows the number of CVs I've dismissed after a single reading because of grammar and spelling, simple math by mind, not machine ... the very basics of communication.

We have a third grade education system yet all the amenities and comforts never present when I went through high school.  We just had an abundance of quality in the teaching ranks

I have checked every primary source Pascoe cites and he has used them faithfully.

While I think that the desire to classify pre-contact Aboriginal economy as agricultural rather than hunter-gatherer is an over reaction to stereotypical views of Aboriginal people as wandering nomads, there is substantial evidence of sophisticated plant husbandry and storage and trading of surplus production.

I have worked quite a lot on the aquaculture sites in Victoria’s southwest and they provide evidence of generational planning, communal engineering, resource husbandry and social organisation that is at least as sophisticated as 19th century agricultural societies ... and that’s what should be taught in schools.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 09, 2021, 09:09:00 pm
I was taught zero Lods both at Primary and High School, today I'm appalled by that fact.
Same here, I was taught nothing about indigenous culture and my introduction to it was Syd Jackson in a Carlton jumper and two foster boys we had at the Technical School I went to. Reg and Arthur were 18 years of age in Form 4 as it was then and I had never seen an aboriginal person close up before and knew nothing about their culture. They were great cricketers and scared the crap out of other schools when we played them, no helmets, batting gloves with those green rubber spikes and Arthur pushing off the boundary bowling at a rapid rate, the other teams would hit the ball in the air just to get caught and get to safety.
But the sad reality was if it wasnt for sport I wouldnt have had any idea what they were about and they could have been from mars which is a sad reflection on the White Australia policy era.
My wifes sister is married to a part aboriginal gent and he is as white as anglo saxon me but always refers to himself jokingly as a black fella but he too had zero education in indigenous matters and he told me he was told by teachers he would be better off pretending he was fully white..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on May 10, 2021, 12:01:02 am
I was taught at a catholic school

Remember an aboriginal man come speak to us on two occasions about the dreaming, their art, their weapons.  We did some aboriginal drawings of native animals and matchstick art where we used dots lines and earthy colours with white paint on black paper.

That was the 90's

Ive learned more at work in public sector health.

Out in public I've been threatened with a knife by one and his mate.  Unfortunate incident/misunderstanding on a tram where things got heated for no good reason.

Its where I established theres good and bad in all races.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 14, 2021, 08:25:32 am
The Victorian government has become the country’s largest employer to include the term “chestfeeding” in a workplace agreement as part of a broader push to use gender-inclusive language.

I think it's time we kibosh the lot, politicians, bureaucrats and social workers, it costs us billion$ for wearing this sort of tripe!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on May 14, 2021, 09:02:22 am
The Victorian government has become the country’s largest employer to include the term “chestfeeding” in a workplace agreement as part of a broader push to use gender-inclusive language.

I think it's time we kibosh the lot, politicians, bureaucrats and social workers, it costs us billion$ for wearing this sort of tripe!

I just don't get it. Are we embarrassed to use the word 'breast'?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 14, 2021, 10:22:15 am
Someone's gotta justify this feel good garbage.  No better sucker than the taxpayer.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on May 14, 2021, 10:37:41 am
And what are we to make of "bottom feeder" under this new regime??
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 14, 2021, 02:53:26 pm
Don Lane
Bert Newton
Ellen DeGeneres

Anyone who has been exposed even superficially to those in the entertainment media get this list.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 14, 2021, 04:15:52 pm
Don Lane
Bert Newton
Ellen DeGeneres

Anyone who has been exposed even superficially to those in the entertainment media get this list.
All blokes?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 14, 2021, 04:16:42 pm
All blokes?
Some blokier than others....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 20, 2021, 09:41:25 am
It seems the filth cant take a trick. Rumblings with the coach and board, now the HS is reporting Joffa Corfe has been charged by Police with 2 counts of sexual assault of a person under 16. How the mighty fall.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 20, 2021, 10:02:44 am
Ask not for whom the bell tolls ...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 20, 2021, 12:02:55 pm
It seems the filth cant take a trick. Rumblings with the coach and board, now the HS is reporting Joffa Corfe has been charged by Police with 2 counts of sexual assault of a person under 16. How the mighty fall.
I thought Joffa had moved to Fiji permanently?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 20, 2021, 12:04:14 pm
I thought Joffa had moved to Fiji permanently?

Redbank Plains in Queensland according to an article in The Age.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 20, 2021, 12:37:12 pm
Notice The Hun went front page with Joffa wearing The Gold Jacket over a Carlton jumper!

(https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5082.0;attach=1051)

Flubbo can't resist taking a swipe at us, it's his way. This is nothing more than a cheap effort to build a visual association between an accused sex offender and Carlton, and shiv all Carlton fans!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 20, 2021, 12:40:20 pm
Notice The Hun went front page with Joffa wearing The Gold Jacket over a Carlton jumper!

(https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5082.0;attach=1051)

Exactly the sort of low level crap you'd expect from Murdoch.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 20, 2021, 05:06:35 pm
That demands a hard legal response. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 20, 2021, 05:19:01 pm
Redbank Plains in Queensland according to an article in The Age.
Wonder if he has been to Truganina? always a first time.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: flyboy77 on May 20, 2021, 08:35:22 pm
Is that Joffa story legit?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 20, 2021, 08:41:49 pm
Is that Joffa story legit?

It seems pretty legit. The charges have been laid and he was arrested earlier this month - bailed for a court appearance in July.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-20/collingwood-fan-joffa-to-face-child-sex-charges/100151636
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 20, 2021, 09:19:05 pm
Is that Joffa story legit?
100%
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 20, 2021, 09:45:29 pm
Is that Joffa story legit?

You bet it is. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on May 20, 2021, 09:56:02 pm
Is the Joffa stuff in any way cheersquad related or is it completely outside of the club?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 20, 2021, 10:44:20 pm
Is the Joffa stuff in any way cheersquad related or is it completely outside of the club?
Allegedly occurred in Coburg
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 25, 2021, 02:40:34 pm
A note of warning to Bitcoin hoarders and other crypto-currency apparatchiks.

The moment a nefarious global authority gets a functioning general purpose quantum computer, your old style encryption crypto-currency is exactly worthless, you may as well walk out the front door and throw your cash onto the road!

It's a matter of when not if!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 25, 2021, 04:27:20 pm
A note of warning to Bitcoin hoarders and other crypto-currency apparatchiks.

The moment a nefarious global authority gets a functioning general purpose quantum computer, your old style encryption crypto-currency is exactly worthless, you may as well walk out the front door and throw your cash onto the road!

It's a matter of when not if!
A lot of the smarter bitcoin operators have been selling, Elon Musk deciding to exclude Bitcoin as a payment method for his beloved Teslas after intially championing the idea really knocked the Bitcoin price and the Bitcoin movement.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on May 25, 2021, 05:07:23 pm
There are much better ways to make money... ;)
I'm helping out a Nigerian Prince who is struggling to access his finances.
He's going to put it into my account and leave me a share when he takes it out. :D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 25, 2021, 05:11:02 pm
There are much better ways to make money... ;)
I'm helping out a Nigerian Prince who is struggling to access his finances.
He's going to put it into my account and leave me a share when he takes it out. :D
I know that guy, he contacted me also. Gee he gets around and has plenty of cash.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 25, 2021, 05:19:12 pm
I know that guy, he contacted me also. Gee he gets around and has plenty of cash.

And presumably married to Nicole from the NBN.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on May 25, 2021, 09:07:21 pm
A lot of the smarter bitcoin operators have been selling, Elon Musk deciding to exclude Bitcoin as a payment method for his beloved Teslas after intially championing the idea really knocked the Bitcoin price and the Bitcoin movement.

Elon was a dunce.

His whole business model is based on green energy and renewables.  Mining crypto uses ALOT of electricity.  So much that it made no sense for him to get into that.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 29, 2021, 09:15:03 pm
https://theconversation.com/the-afrs-2021-rich-list-shows-were-not-all-in-this-together-161738
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 02:11:48 pm
And so ends the reign of cryptocurrency.

US seizes $2.3 million Colonial Pipeline paid to ransomware attackers
Funds seized after Justice Department IDs Bitcoin wallet and obtains its private key.

Once the US Feds have done this once, they can do it again anywhere, anytime and to anybody!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on June 08, 2021, 02:35:38 pm
And pretty to watch.  Hope millions get burnt.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 03:07:56 pm
And pretty to watch.  Hope millions get burnt.
They'll hide how they've done this, they'll claim it was an informant, but I doubt it.

Just to find somebody they had to crack encryption, but just like Enigma during the WW-II they'll claim they captured the data they needed.

Now they can just sit and watch and make notes before acting at will, in a manner that just looks like bad luck to the targets. Like Germany thinking it's U-Boats missing transport ships was just down to weather patterns and coincidence.

For popular Apps there is a fundamental problem with all encryption, the more you use it the more vulnerable it is as every message and file is a hint to how to unravel it!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 08, 2021, 05:26:25 pm
I dont think you understand encryption and private keys very well LP.

Irrespective, quantum computing is likely the reason they could crack the encryption.  What previously took years will take minutes.

Thats why you wont find out how they cracked it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 08, 2021, 08:26:59 pm
I dont think you understand encryption and private keys very well LP.

Irrespective, quantum computing is likely the reason they could crack the encryption.  What previously took years will take minutes.

Thats why you wont find out how they cracked it.
I suspect your trust in Bitcoin's encryption might be a tad over-stated, as is the general faith in digital systems, anyone who does enough scientific computing knows the problems I refer to, so they generally do not comply 100% to the math that designed them. Certain points values can overflow which becomes a tell for cryptographers, this can also be device dependant, with various platforms having different weakness. It's no different to when Diffie-Hellman was cracked, that wasn't brut force it was a math issue with digital systems. Collect enough data and these regular patterns of conversion between analogue math and digital algorithms becomes more obvious as artefacts in the data.

So I wouldn't ignore the possibility that authorities might be able to seed the ledger with certain data and from that derive some critical knowledge of the blockchain. Not much different in method to how Turing and others broke Enigma and Lorenz. I appreciate it's a bigger problem, but it's not beyond state level actors.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 09, 2021, 11:11:54 am
I suspect your trust in Bitcoin's encryption might be a tad over-stated, as is the general faith in digital systems, anyone who does enough scientific computing knows the problems I refer to, so they generally do not comply 100% to the math that designed them. Certain points values can overflow which becomes a tell for cryptographers, this can also be device dependant, with various platforms having different weakness. It's no different to when Diffie-Hellman was cracked, that wasn't brut force it was a math issue with digital systems. Collect enough data and these regular patterns of conversion between analogue math and digital algorithms becomes more obvious as artefacts in the data.

So I wouldn't ignore the possibility that authorities might be able to seed the ledger with certain data and from that derive some critical knowledge of the blockchain. Not much different in method to how Turing and others broke Enigma and Lorenz. I appreciate it's a bigger problem, but it's not beyond state level actors.

Sorry mate. You cant simplify it like this without an inherent understanding of exactly how it operates.

FYI, I am doing a Cyber security course right now and we have looked at hashing, salting, how it works, and that it is very much a one way function involving private and public keys. 

As for my trust in bitcoin, I have none, I am/have purchasing/purchased none, and quantum computing, will render it worthless, because what takes years to create on the blockchain, will take minutes to solve on a quantum computer.

Have a go at this for a bit and think about what I am saying.

http://nmichaels.org/rsa.py





Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 09, 2021, 11:17:07 am
As for my trust in bitcoin, I have none, I am/have purchasing/purchased none, and quantum computing, will render it worthless, because what takes years to create on the blockchain, will take minutes to solve on a quantum computer.
I remember just a year or two back Google claiming it's handful of qubits quantum computer had just solved a problem that would take a supercomputer hundreds of thousands of years to solve, then IBM fired back by demonstrating the very next day it's silicon based supercomputer solving the same problem in 18 minutes. Google hadn't done the math correctly, they forgot math is analogue and computers are digital, even quantum computers!

All of these systems depend on the base infrastructure, and they assume the systems are secure from that very first step. But as the Comancheros discovered yesterday with their encrypted communications app, assumption is the mother of all feck ups! Blockchain as a distributed ledger is a revolution, it'll become the backbone of many data base services to deliver reliability and traceability, but thinking it is infallible is a human failing.

As for quantum computers, the ability to break encryption is theoretical, recent work suggests that designing those algorithms for a Quantum computer is many orders of magnitude harder than people think. Sure once you've got the reliable algorithm you have an advantage, but getting it might not be so easy.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on June 11, 2021, 08:49:34 am
https://theconversation.com/liberals-dan-andrews-questions-are-a-perfect-case-study-in-how-to-manufacture-fake-news-162511
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 11, 2021, 09:40:24 am
I remember just a year or two back Google claiming it's handful of qubits quantum computer had just solved a problem that would take a supercomputer hundreds of thousands of years to solve, then IBM fired back by demonstrating the very next day it's silicon based supercomputer solving the same problem in 18 minutes. Google hadn't done the math correctly, they forgot math is analogue and computers are digital, even quantum computers!

All of these systems depend on the base infrastructure, and they assume the systems are secure from that very first step. But as the Comancheros discovered yesterday with their encrypted communications app, assumption is the mother of all feck ups! Blockchain as a distributed ledger is a revolution, it'll become the backbone of many data base services to deliver reliability and traceability, but thinking it is infallible is a human failing.

As for quantum computers, the ability to break encryption is theoretical, recent work suggests that designing those algorithms for a Quantum computer is many orders of magnitude harder than people think. Sure once you've got the reliable algorithm you have an advantage, but getting it might not be so easy.

Most hacking is done by simple means. 

People surrender information because they have to. 

Its not about code breaking per se.

Most people are extremely naieve.

You have to login to retrieve your bitcoin.  THAT'S the key to being a hacker.  You get that information by stockpiling information about people. 

Quantum computing is revolutionary because of the speed in which its able to do things vs whats available now and all computing fundamentals are math based.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 11, 2021, 10:55:13 am
Most hacking is done by simple means. 

People surrender information because they have to. 

Its not about code breaking per se.

Most people are extremely naieve.

You have to login to retrieve your bitcoin.  THAT'S the key to being a hacker.  You get that information by stockpiling information about people.
The method is somewhat irrelevant, the easy way or the hard way, the reality is the US Feds broke criminal bitcoin accounts either by deception or technological brute force and withdrew funds, they've done it once so they'll can do it again. And the Anom App crushing the Comancheros is yet another example, techno deception or not, and that is technology more than 3 years old, they had been doing it for that long assembling the evidence!

Personally, I don't see this as any different to the way a Stingray works for a call interception on the cellular network, they are just a deception run by the state, the assertion is Bitcoin has suffered much the same. Judging by the market reaction, I suspect many investors agree, they do not know how long ago it was broken. The suggestion of a whistle-blower might just be the authorities covering their tracks in much the same way the British let the Germans think the prevention/failure of German operations was from conventional intelligence and not Bletchley Park breaking Enigma.

The problem for Bitcoin or other Crypto Currency users is how do they know, because trust is broken?

Personally, I don't understand how you are not sensitive to this, yet think a lockdown to save lives in a pandemic is a risk to civil liberties and freedoms. It seems at best arbitrary if you want the expertise of cryptographers and IT specialist accepted without question, yet questions health professionals.

Many would see this interception of Bitcoin as a threat to freedoms and liberties, Bitcoin and other Cryptocurrencies were of course created for this very reason, to free the public from the tyranny of the financial system. Apple might even market encryption and blockchain that very way!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 11, 2021, 11:12:02 am
The method is somewhat irrelevant, the easy way or the hard way, the reality is the US Feds broke criminal bitcoin accounts either by deception or technological brute force and withdrew funds, they've done it once so they'll can do it again. And the Anom App crushing the Comancheros is yet another example, techno deception or not, and that is technology more than 3 years old, they had been doing it for that long assembling the evidence!

Personally, I don't see this as any different to the way a Stingray works for a call interception on the cellular network, they are just a deception run by the state, the assertion is Bitcoin has suffered much the same. Judging by the market reaction, I suspect many investors agree, they do not know how long ago it was broken. The suggestion of a whistle-blower might just be the authorities covering their tracks in much the same way the British let the Germans think the prevention/failure of German operations was from conventional intelligence and not Bletchley Park breaking Enigma.

The problem for Bitcoin or other Crypto Currency users is how do they know, because trust is broken?

Personally, I don't understand how you are not sensitive to this, yet think a lockdown to save lives in a pandemic is a risk to civil liberties and freedoms. It seems at best arbitrary if you want the expertise of cryptographers and IT specialist accepted without question, yet questions health professionals.

Many would see this interception of Bitcoin as a threat to freedoms and liberties, Bitcoin and other Cryptocurrencies were of course created for this very reason, to free the public from the tyranny of the financial system. Apple might even market encryption and blockchain that very way!


Actually, the bolded statements of what we are talking about is the major relevance.  HOW is the single most important thing when it comes to cyber security.

Ill give you a clue.  Look up 0 hour cyber attacks and what they take advantage of.


The rest of your post, is philosophy, tied up in jargon dressed with a little bit of sarcasm.

The pandemic risk to civil liberties and freedom is not quite relevant.  The response, very extremely risk averse and not commensurate to the risk profile.  Online Cybersecurity is different.  State sponsored hackers are not the only type.

LP, I appreciate that google can teach you a lot in a very short period of time, but expertise in any one of these facets is not found on google.

The online world is much easier to hack than anyone understands.  THIS is the premise behind cyber security.  As a test case, have a look at your password for this very forum.  How secure would you guess it would be?  If someone knew you quite intimately, would they be able to crack it easily enough?  Combine that with the resources of the FBI, NSA or CIA, and then add in a quantum computer for good measure.

The weakest link is the human.  It always has been, and always will be.  2001 a space odyssey tells that story well enough. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 11, 2021, 11:44:34 am
He's a good man Ross Lyon, often misjudged I reckon. Is young Zac still with the Blues?
Lyon is a good coach at working out what game plan suits what he has on the list.
Dawson was a spud of a player imo but I don't know anything about his off field abilities. Lyon might suit us given we have no idea what we are doing, but it won't be pretty to watch..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 11, 2021, 01:03:45 pm
Lyon is a good coach at working out what game plan suits what he has on the list.
Dawson was a spud of a player imo but I don't know anything about his off field abilities. Lyon might suit us given we have no idea what we are doing, but it won't be pretty to watch..
Amazing my post of nearly 12 months ago is relevant today.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 11, 2021, 01:21:35 pm
It’ll save me a lot of time if Lyon takes over at Carlton. Rather than watching the game, I’ll just check the final score. And then if we’ve won 31-30, I’ll let out a little “Yippee!”
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 11, 2021, 02:14:17 pm
It’ll save me a lot of time if Lyon takes over at Carlton. Rather than watching the game, I’ll just check the final score. And then if we’ve won 31-30, I’ll let out a little “Yippee!”
 Yes, I'm afraid I'll be the same, the garden will be looking good!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on June 11, 2021, 02:20:34 pm
I reckon I'd be happy with boring footy that takes us to the GF, rather than what we have now.

I'm 50/50 on Lyon. I learn things from him sometimes, but he can be pretty sarcastic, and he has occasional turns of phrase (Lyon-speak), where I'm not really sure what he's trying to say.

Please CFC, stick with one coach and minimal list changes for a few years, and see what happens. I haven't checked, but I'd bet that was the state of play during the Ratten years (one coach, similar list).
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on June 11, 2021, 04:53:56 pm
Lyon strikes me as one strange dude who I am not 100% comfortable about. I hasten to add that I have never met him so it's just an impression I get.
Also, I don't have confidence that he would be the one to get us a premiership.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 11, 2021, 06:10:34 pm
Lyon strikes me as one strange dude who I am not 100% comfortable about. I hasten to add that I have never met him so it's just an impression I get.
Also, I don't have confidence that he would be the one to get us a premiership.
Lyon would make us better defensively which would win us more games and you could expect to make finals IMO but winning a GF with his previous gamestyle at Freo would be difficult. Its like bowling at leg stump with all your fielders on the legside, you wont give away many runs but you wont get many wickets either.
Agree on his personality, wouldnt like him as a neighbor....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on June 11, 2021, 09:18:23 pm
https://www.theage.com.au/national/geoffrey-edelsten-found-dead-in-melbourne-apartment-20210611-p580d4.html
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on June 11, 2021, 09:21:36 pm
https://www.afl.com.au/news/629309/former-sydney-owner-geoffrey-edelsten-dies-aged-78

Another article.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 12, 2021, 08:38:57 pm
I’m generally a big proponent of electric power for cars and the like but there are times a powerful combustion engine might be preferable:
Click here (https://mobile.twitter.com/ATCEMS/status/1403092789630472199)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 12, 2021, 08:59:29 pm
It’ll save me a lot of time if Lyon takes over at Carlton. Rather than watching the game, I’ll just check the final score. And then if we’ve won 31-30, I’ll let out a little “Yippee!”
12 or 13 one point low scoring wins vs 7 or 8 22 to 24 point honourable losses.
Hmmmmm.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 22, 2021, 04:43:07 pm
Those of you experienced in flying, and in particularly the flatus expanding effects of low cabin pressures at altitude, will be seriously disturbed by the latest cabin concepts!
(https://www.traveller.com.au/content/dam/images/h/1/w/m/s/v/image.gallery.galleryLandscape.620x414.h1wmt1.png/1624238921684.jpg)
Enjoy the flight fart face!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 29, 2021, 04:59:42 pm
To add salt to the wound, Zac Williams has been racially vilified online following his suspension by a vile, weak, coward with a fake account. Time for social media platforms for insist on 3 forms of valid ID to open an account. This way, these weak kents can be tracked down and face the music. Despicable excuses for humans is all they are.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on June 29, 2021, 05:12:13 pm
To add salt to the wound, Zac Williams has been racially vilified online following his suspension by a vile, weak, coward with a fake account. Time for social media platforms for insist on 3 forms of valid ID to open an account. This way, these weak kents can be tracked down and face the music. Despicable excuses for humans is all they are.

Cowards is the perfect description.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 29, 2021, 05:36:02 pm
Almost certainly a CheatsFC supporter posing as a Bluebagger.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 29, 2021, 05:52:33 pm
Almost certainly a CheatsFC supporter posing as a Bluebagger.

Was it on a Carlton forum/Facebook page?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 29, 2021, 06:11:44 pm
Was it on a Carlton forum/Facebook page?
Not sure, I think it was on Instagram.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 29, 2021, 08:53:44 pm
To add salt to the wound, Zac Williams has been racially vilified online following his suspension by a vile, weak, coward with a fake account. Time for social media platforms for insist on 3 forms of valid ID to open an account. This way, these weak kents can be tracked down and face the music. Despicable excuses for humans is all they are.

I dont agree on giving identification and personal information to social media. 

They collect enough personal information that they don't need.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on June 29, 2021, 09:02:34 pm
I dont agree on giving identification and personal information to social media. 

They collect enough personal information that they don't need.

Of course they need it… how else can they spin a profit ?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 29, 2021, 09:11:46 pm
I dont agree on giving identification and personal information to social media. 

They collect enough personal information that they don't need.
Well they need to do something to verify the ID of the gutless parasites and filth who vilify and bully people into knecking themselves. Im not an anti survelience type simply because I do nothing wrong and having nothing to hide. If giving that information brings perpetrators of vile acts to justice and suffer the consequences of their actions, I'm all for it and will gladly accept that as a condition of using it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 29, 2021, 09:21:14 pm
Well they need to do something to verify the ID of the gutless parasites and filth who vilify and bully people into knecking themselves. Im not an anti survelience type simply because I do nothing wrong and having nothing to hide. If giving that information brings perpetrators of vile acts to justice and suffer the consequences of their actions, I'm all for it and will gladly accept that as a condition of using it.

I understand.   The vitriol that gets spewed on social media is abhorrent but I would rather give it away than give away my information. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 29, 2021, 09:31:48 pm
I understand.   The vitriol that gets spewed on social media is abhorrent but I would rather give it away than give away my information. 
Fair enough.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on June 29, 2021, 09:36:34 pm
Funny - I much prefer giving my info to Social Media (not that I'm very active) then to the government - I am much more suspicious as to how our privacy is being eroded on a Federal level (pre-fill tax returns, all the MyGov, there has already been application by VicPol to access Corona QR check-ins).

The reality is if someone wants my information, they have probably got it or can get it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 29, 2021, 09:56:56 pm
Funny - I much prefer giving my info to Social Media (not that I'm very active) then to the government - I am much more suspicious as to how our privacy is being eroded on a Federal level (pre-fill tax returns, all the MyGov, there has already been application by VicPol to access Corona QR check-ins).

The reality is if someone wants my information, they have probably got it or can get it.

For me its not an either scenario.

Theres lots of information gathering by sources that really don't need it. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 30, 2021, 09:45:59 am
Just from an ex-moderator/admin point of view and speaking specifically about this site...

As a site I think we've handled things pretty well over the years.
We've given a little lenience on things like criticism of player's skills, efforts and attitudes (and we've copped a bit of criticism for that)
But things like racist comments and rumours regarding player's personal lives have been shut down pretty quickly.
To be honest, we really haven't had to do much, as folks have been pretty good and vile and extremist comments have been a rare occurence.

I'm not sure how multiple ID's to verify an account could be introduced.
How we could view them, and verify them, and the responsibility that goes with accessing that information would all be issues.
I think we have to rely on our moderating group to act swiftly and get rid of the comments and posters who breach standards.

I think the time will come when social media sites are increasingly accountable, unfortunately individuals have many ways to avoid and get around detection.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 30, 2021, 10:50:30 am
I dont agree on giving identification and personal information to social media. 

They collect enough personal information that they don't need.
Agree and it wouldn't work anyway. You can get around that now with fake ids, people use fake IPs all the time,same with mobiles, emails. The dark Web, laundering through Crypto etc has created a bigger need.Police are spending more and more trying to keep up with it all..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 30, 2021, 11:00:36 am
Agree and it wouldn't work anyway. You can get around that now with fake ids, people use fake IPs all the time,same with mobiles, emails. The dark Web, laundering through Crypto etc has created a bigger need.Police are spending more and more trying to keep up with it all..
I notice the top police chiefs stated they did not want access to the Q-Code records as they rightly pointed out it would discourage people getting vaccinated and using the system. Some may be cynical about that but really give, health, wellbeing and wealth drive crime it makes perfect sense.

The state and Fed police are now using more and more covert tactics, not dissimilar to ASIO. Crooked lawyers want to expose the tactics in court so they can get a big payday off the criminals for getting them off the hook. It's a game of cat and mouse, and perhaps indicates that long term the Feds need to be more involved. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 30, 2021, 11:04:15 am
Just from an ex-moderator/admin point of view and speaking specifically about this site...

As a site I think we've handled things pretty well over the years.
We've given a little lenience on things like criticism of player's skills, efforts and attitudes (and we've copped a bit of criticism for that)
But things like racist comments and rumours regarding player's personal lives have been shut down pretty quickly.
To be honest, we really haven't had to do much, as folks have been pretty good and vile and extremist comments have been a rare occurence.

I'm not sure how multiple ID's to verify an account could be introduced.
How we could view them, and verify them, and the responsibility that goes with accessing that information would all be issues.
I think we have to rely on our moderating group to act swiftly and get rid of the comments and posters who breach standards.

I think the time will come when social media sites are increasingly accountable, unfortunately individuals have many ways to avoid and get around detection.

Not to mention how do we trust as an example that you guys can secure our personal information?

Thats not a slight on csc, its a valid concern.

Identity theft is the number one driver of cyber crime.  It creates a lot of revenue for thieves not to mention gives them the ability to literally steal all you own and then leave you fighting to prove your own identity.  All for what goal? 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on June 30, 2021, 11:14:55 am
Precisely why I'll never be on facebook, twitter or any other part of social media.  Enrich Zuckerberg or anyone like him?  They disgust me.  
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 30, 2021, 11:30:23 am
Precisely why I'll never be on facebook, twitter or any other part of social media.  Enrich Zuckerberg or anyone like him?  They disgust me.  
I don't do social media either....its sophisticated marketing for the masses.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 30, 2021, 12:24:42 pm
I don't do social media either....its sophisticated marketing for the masses.
A technically sophisticated backend, but the marketing message itself is fairly rudimentary lowest common denominator stuff. A technological race to the moral gutter.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 30, 2021, 01:26:19 pm
Agree and it wouldn't work anyway. You can get around that now with fake ids, people use fake IPs all the time,same with mobiles, emails. The dark Web, laundering through Crypto etc has created a bigger need.Police are spending more and more trying to keep up with it all..
Righto then, we'll just allow cretins to get on line and call Zac an aboroginal  so and so  and we just say its too hard. Not good enough as far as Im concerned. If platforms like Facebook and Twitter really want to, they can get proper verification and hunt animals down. If we want to make a difference, it needs to be pushed.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 30, 2021, 02:01:39 pm
Righto then, we'll just allow cretins to get on line and call Zac an aboroginal  so and so  and we just say its too hard. Not good enough as far as Im concerned. If platforms like Facebook and Twitter really want to, they can get proper verification and hunt animals down. If we want to make a difference, it needs to be pushed.

They do moderate these forums.  People aren't allowed to say and right purely what they like, and abuse can be reported, and usually those posters are suspended, and then removed from those platforms.

They have community standards, and the commentary can be removed.  Removing the ability for people to speak, doesnt stop racism occurring, it just stops people hearing it.  This is one way to do it, but it removes the educational component of seeing it, and calling it out.

In time, all these issues will be sorted, but I see some potential scope for historical repetition of these issues.  Practising equality must be done without the usual divisions and seperation.  I.e.  Being proud and deady is fine, but it becomes a way to ensure there is division in society, rather than simply seeing us all as individuals, and then treating everyone with the respect they deserve.  I am an Australian born, son of a Greek migrant, and I too, am proud and deadly....  Except, I am not a first nations person, therefore I shouldn't be as proud and deadly as they are....  See the issue there?

I do.  It creates the division we need to remove to find an equal footing for all. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 30, 2021, 03:35:02 pm
In this particular case it seems the dill created a false account and posted.
Easy to do, impossible to track.

So what has he achieved....universal condemnation and  a very strong response from the Carlton club
He's  highlighted what a piece of crap he personally is, and drew attention to the fact that there are still a number of low-lifes out there.
 
He can't boast too loudly about it...guys like him usually have 'friends' who'll turn on them at the drop of a hat and dob him in.
The only folks who will know about his antics are possibly a few grubby mates who share his opinion.
He get's little satisfaction from it even though it's probably the high point so far in his miserable existence.
Loser!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 30, 2021, 03:51:09 pm
In time, all these issues will be sorted, but I see some potential scope for historical repetition of these issues.  Practising equality must be done without the usual divisions and seperation.  I.e.  Being proud and deady is fine, but it becomes a way to ensure there is division in society, rather than simply seeing us all as individuals, and then treating everyone with the respect they deserve.  I am an Australian born, son of a Greek migrant, and I too, am proud and deadly....  Except, I am not a first nations person, therefore I shouldn't be as proud and deadly as they are....  See the issue there?

I do.  It creates the division we need to remove to find an equal footing for all. 
Just as well that clubs like South Melbourne Hellas have been excluded from the A-League, then. Having clubs that are divided along ethnic lines creates division. Maybe Italian and Greek social clubs should be banned for the same reason.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 30, 2021, 04:30:40 pm
They do moderate these forums.  People aren't allowed to say and right purely what they like, and abuse can be reported, and usually those posters are suspended, and then removed from those platforms.

They have community standards, and the commentary can be removed.  Removing the ability for people to speak, doesnt stop racism occurring, it just stops people hearing it.  This is one way to do it, but it removes the educational component of seeing it, and calling it out.

In time, all these issues will be sorted, but I see some potential scope for historical repetition of these issues.  Practising equality must be done without the usual divisions and seperation.  I.e.  Being proud and deady is fine, but it becomes a way to ensure there is division in society, rather than simply seeing us all as individuals, and then treating everyone with the respect they deserve.  I am an Australian born, son of a Greek migrant, and I too, am proud and deadly....  Except, I am not a first nations person, therefore I shouldn't be as proud and deadly as they are....  See the issue there?

I do.  It creates the division we need to remove to find an equal footing for all. 
Sorry Thry, I dont really get what you mean, I sort of thinks youre over complicating it (with respect). For me its really simple. I was taught to treat everyone equal and with respect. Black, white, red, purple, east, west, north, south, young, old, rich, poor. In sickness and in health, in work and in play, during fun times and in sad times, online, offline. Whatever.
Cross the line and there should be consequences. If there are aren't, it all falls down and we start again. People do what they do because there are no consequences for their actions. You talk about education, even the most educated can be hurtful, vile despicable human beings. Yes we must educate this early in life but when people who should know better step of out of line, their must be consequences (re-education and penalty). You say in time issues will be sorted, guess what? We've been going a long time and things still aren't sorted. We are talking basics here. Why is that? In my mind, it always comes back to two things. Lack of education and no consequences. I keep hearing about why we cant do stuff, too hard, etc etc. I want to start hearing about can do.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 30, 2021, 06:31:50 pm
Just as well that clubs like South Melbourne Hellas have been excluded from the A-League, then. Having clubs that are divided along ethnic lines creates division. Maybe Italian and Greek social clubs should be banned for the same reason.

@goingintocarlton see this post for what im talking about.  The migrant clubs were effectively kiboshed from the national competition and not really given a crack at joining the A league.

The point to it at the time is exactly what Mav is saying.  Too many ethnics.

@Mav I will forever be a South Melbourne supporter.  Like the old swans supporters of Melbourne who eventually die, the kids won't remember and the club will dissappear.  Ive made my peace with that.  Instead we'll focus on the fact that Lisa De Vanna came from South Melbourne's women's team and it wasn't a Greeks only club.   We were happy to accept everyone.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 01, 2021, 04:08:32 pm
The Mrs and I are spending a couple of days in the YV and stopped at Healesville. Walked past on antiques store at they had old football records in the window. Couldn't resist, picked up:
1 x 1968 Second Semi Ess v Carl
1 x 1970 Second Semi Coll v Carl
1 x 1970 Preliminary Final Stk v Cal
1 x 1973 Second Semi Coll v Car
$72 the lot, probably got ripped but just couldn't walk passed. All in very good condition.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 01, 2021, 04:22:36 pm
The Mrs and I are spending a couple of days in the YV and stopped at Healesville. Walked past on antiques store at they had old football records in the window. Couldn't resist, picked up:
1 x 1968 Second Semi Ess v Carl
1 x 1970 Second Semi Coll v Carl
1 x 1970 Preliminary Final Stk v Cal
1 x 1973 Second Semi Coll v Car
$72 the lot, probably got ripped but just couldn't walk passed. All in very good condition.

Good get GTC. About $14 or $15 each, worth it IMO. If you head over to eBay, you'll see that the price you paid in pretty reasonable in comparison. You'll forget about the price in years to come when you're thumbing through them.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 01, 2021, 04:44:10 pm
The Mrs and I are spending a couple of days in the YV and stopped at Healesville. Walked past on antiques store at they had old football records in the window. Couldn't resist, picked up:
1 x 1968 Second Semi Ess v Carl
1 x 1970 Second Semi Coll v Carl
1 x 1970 Preliminary Final Stk v Cal
1 x 1973 Second Semi Coll v Car
$72 the lot, probably got ripped but just couldn't walk passed. All in very good condition.
Good get and as Paul said worth the money.....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 01, 2021, 06:39:18 pm
The Mrs and I are spending a couple of days in the YV and stopped at Healesville. Walked past on antiques store at they had old football records in the window. Couldn't resist, picked up:
1 x 1968 Second Semi Ess v Carl
1 x 1970 Second Semi Coll v Carl
1 x 1970 Preliminary Final Stk v Cal
1 x 1973 Second Semi Coll v Car
$72 the lot, probably got ripped but just couldn't walk passed. All in very good condition.

Well worth the loot... would have done the same, in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 01, 2021, 09:22:59 pm
Well worth the loot... would have done the same, in a heartbeat.
Thats all the validation I required Baggers Me Ol Mate.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 09, 2021, 07:00:07 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/09/shock-jock-horror-alan-jones-fears-cancel-culture-warriors-as-he-flirts-with-return-to-radio

You have to laugh.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 09, 2021, 08:04:34 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/09/shock-jock-horror-alan-jones-fears-cancel-culture-warriors-as-he-flirts-with-return-to-radio

You have to laugh.

I can only shake my head and mutter, "Oh dear."
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 15, 2021, 04:52:00 pm
https://theconversation.com/right-wing-shock-jock-stoush-reveals-the-awful-truth-about-covid-politics-and-media-ratings-164489

Focussed on Sydney, but interesting nonetheless IMO.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Professer E on July 16, 2021, 07:14:59 pm
If I ran a radio station  and lost a ratings slot to Kyle the ****wit and his sidekick I'd just about entertain putting the Antichrist and his pet dog on the air.  
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 16, 2021, 07:56:11 pm
If I ran a radio station  and lost a ratings slot to Kyle the ****wit and his sidekick I'd just about entertain putting the Antichrist and his pet dog on the air.  
Kyle and his equally dimwitted co host are on about 7-8 mill a year each.....you think of people running the country, performing great work in medicine etc etc and you have those two who are probably surviving with just a reduced brain stem and a few cells and its like contemplating where the universe ends...just beyond comprehension what their appeal is and why they get paid so much.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on July 16, 2021, 07:58:19 pm
@EB1
Just a reflection of the world we live in unfortunately.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on July 16, 2021, 08:50:13 pm
How much of a dimwit must you be to listen to those two whackjobs
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 16, 2021, 09:35:54 pm
Kyle and his equally dimwitted co host are on about 7-8 mill a year each.....you think of people running the country, performing great work in medicine etc etc and you have those two who are probably surviving with just a reduced brain stem and a few cells and its like contemplating where the universe ends...just beyond comprehension what their appeal is and why they get paid so much.
Beggars belief. Supply and demand says more about the general public I guess.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on August 02, 2021, 05:36:46 pm
https://theconversation.com/who-were-australias-best-prime-ministers-we-asked-the-experts-165302

Curtin No1, and rightly so. Chifley and Whitlam should be competing for 2 and 3.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 02, 2021, 05:50:59 pm
No room for Kevin?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on August 02, 2021, 06:09:28 pm
https://theconversation.com/who-were-australias-best-prime-ministers-we-asked-the-experts-165302

Curtin No1, and rightly so. Chifley and Whitlam should be competing for 2 and 3.

I would have had Gogh ahead of Keating... otherwise, hard to argue with their top 10.

As for SloMo... he'd make a different top 10, a less favourable top 10.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on August 02, 2021, 06:16:44 pm
I would have had Gogh ahead of Keating... otherwise, hard to argue with their top 10.

As for SloMo... he'd make a different top 10, a less favourable top 10.

Down at the bottom of the article is a short "duds" section, with Abbott, Rudd and Turnbull near the bottom. William McMahon is ranked last.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 02, 2021, 06:24:17 pm
Dont like any Politicians but Abbott is top of my Dud PM list.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 02, 2021, 06:35:30 pm
Hawk? For me the last politician who gave a genuine fork about the people.
Fraser and Menzies being good Bluebaggers surely an a advantage.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 02, 2021, 06:53:34 pm
Hawk? For me the last politician who gave a genuine fork about the people.
Fraser and Menzies being good Bluebaggers surely an a advantage.
Bob Hawke lost me when he traded in Hazel for Blanche....
Malcom Fraser I could never warm too...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 02, 2021, 07:01:50 pm
Bob Hawke lost me when he traded in Hazel for Blanche....
Malcom Fraser I could never warm too...
Hawk was a ratbag "off field" no doubt, but he did a bloody good job as PM because he cared. The current polis wouldn't carry his bags. All I remember of Sir Robert was watching his state funeral as a kid with my dad and the picture of him watching the Blues at PP from the front seat of his government Roller on a special stand. As for Mal, just google Alex Marcou's "Fabulous" story.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on August 02, 2021, 07:09:21 pm
People will vote according to their own political leanings.

Gough was a progressive, visionary leader but as far as running a tight, disciplined ship he was an absolute dud.

The winner is  (he'll get votes from both sides).... Bob Hawke. ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on August 02, 2021, 08:19:15 pm
...

The winner is  (he'll get votes from both sides).... Bob Hawke. ;D

It's been an issue for Labor since at least the 80's. With a general drift in political attitudes towards the right, Labor was forced to become New Labor, or Liberal Lite, or whatever you want to call it. Staying true to hard core, old school Labor values like Jeremy Corbyn means a wipe out in elections (at least in English speaking countries). I understood why Labor went the way they did under Hawke / Keating, but it was the beginning of the end for me.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on August 02, 2021, 09:01:31 pm
It's been an issue for Labor since at least the 80's. With a general drift in political attitudes towards the right, Labor was forced to become New Labor, or Liberal Lite, or whatever you want to call it. Staying true to hard core, old school Labor values like Jeremy Corbyn means a wipe out in elections (at least in English speaking countries). I understood why Labor went the way they did under Hawke / Keating, but it was the beginning of the end for me.


I initially had the best 'Liberal Prime Minister... Bob Hawke' in my post.
It wasn't accurate, but what Hawke did do was find the sweet spot that appealed to a large number of middle of the road voters.
I know a few long time LNP voters in my family switched sides during his tenure...and stayed Labor.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 02, 2021, 11:02:49 pm
People will vote according to their own political leanings.

Gough was a progressive, visionary leader but as far as running a tight, disciplined ship he was an absolute dud.

The winner is  (he'll get votes from both sides).... Bob Hawke. ;D
For the record, I don't vote Labour but rate Hawk as the best PM. Little Johnny also seemed to care about the people also. After and since those guys, dig a big hole, push em all in it and back fill it fast.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on August 02, 2021, 11:10:36 pm
For the record, I don't vote Labour but rate Hawk as the best PM. Little Johnny also seemed to care about the people also. After and since those guys, dig a big hole, push em all in it and back fill it fast.

That actually kind of supports what I was saying...'Folks will vote according to their own political leanings' ...but Hawke is one who blurred those political lines to the point that many LNP voters were/are quite comfortable acknowledging  and appreciating his time as Prime Minister.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 02, 2021, 11:17:59 pm
Howard was a great PM ... Hawke (forget the maritals) was also more than capable.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on August 03, 2021, 12:17:20 am
Three things that I can't stand about Howard.   First two are about looking after those who can already look after themselves.  
1) Legacy of 50% discount for capital gains.  This kicked off housing unaffordability (aing with some other housing policies). 

2) Full refund of franking credits.  It's wrong makes no sense and is costing a lot now.

3) Tampa.  Disgusting.   Set the tone for Abbott, Dutton and others.  Horrible legacy.

The good thing he did was gun laws.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 03, 2021, 12:45:39 am
Three things that I can't stand about Howard.   First two are about looking after those who can already look after themselves.  
1) Legacy of 50% discount for capital gains.  This kicked off housing unaffordability (aing with some other housing policies). 

2) Full refund of franking credits.  It's wrong makes no sense and is costing a lot now.

3) Tampa.  Disgusting.   Set the tone for Abbott, Dutton and others.  Horrible legacy.

The good thing he did was gun laws.
You need to means test franking credits and cap them for anyone earning over 80-100k.
If you scrap them completely then you will have a lot of self funded retirees qualifying for the pension, dropping their private health insurance and getting health care cards etc.
You want to deny the Twiggy Forests etc who earn millions in dividends but not punish the little bloke who earns 40k and uses those franking credits for his health insurance etc and who will become a burden on the pension  and health care system.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on August 03, 2021, 08:28:39 am
Hawke owed a lot to Keating and Howard owed much to Costello imo.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on August 03, 2021, 09:03:20 am
You need to means test franking credits and cap them for anyone earning over 80-100k.
If you scrap them completely then you will have a lot of self funded retirees qualifying for the pension, dropping their private health insurance and getting health care cards etc.
You want to deny the Twiggy Forests etc who earn millions in dividends but not punish the little bloke who earns 40k and uses those franking credits for his health insurance etc and who will become a burden on the pension  and health care system.
I don't disagree - finding the right balance is the hard bit.  No one should be seen as 'a burden on the pension and health care system'.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 03, 2021, 10:03:36 am
You need to means test franking credits and cap them for anyone earning over 80-100k.
If you scrap them completely then you will have a lot of self funded retirees qualifying for the pension, dropping their private health insurance and getting health care cards etc.
You want to deny the Twiggy Forests etc who earn millions in dividends but not punish the little bloke who earns 40k and uses those franking credits for his health insurance etc and who will become a burden on the pension  and health care system.

I agree, but I think the thresholds should be geared to the average wage, so that it scales automatically as the economic environment changes. Also, as part of this I think the Feds need to look at issues like provisional tax. The problem I see is that the sole trader types and tradies can dabble in the share market and have massively variable income from year to year but not be earning that much on average. So if they have a very good year and the thresholds are set too low you can really punish their earnings. Alternatively maybe make these calculations based on an average over a few years.

What do you do when someone like Packer or Rinehart declare an income of $35K, while their wealth doubles and the number of people they employ plummets?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 03, 2021, 10:06:57 am
I don't disagree - finding the right balance is the hard bit.  No one should be seen as 'a burden on the pension and health care system'.
Not great terminology being a burden but thats how governments view it and why they want everyone with superannuation so they can scrap pensions in the long term. The sad part is we need people paying Private Insurance to help take the pressure off the public system, fund private hospitals and find that right balance.
What we dont want is the likes of Twiggy, Gina Reihardt, etc etc paying no tax and getting bucket loads of franking credits....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 03, 2021, 10:31:46 am
Look at how it went down when shorten pushed for it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on August 03, 2021, 10:54:06 am
Shorten's version was badly thought out and marketed.  If you are going to change people's financial planning at the drop of a hat, there needs to be provision for grandfathering/tapering of the change - it has been part of planning for 15-20 years, can't just undo it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 03, 2021, 11:49:51 am
Shorten's version was badly thought out and marketed.  If you are going to change people's financial planning at the drop of a hat, there needs to be provision for grandfathering/tapering of the change - it has been part of planning for 15-20 years, can't just undo it.
Cost Labor a lot of retirees and their families votes, Wilson Asset Management boss Geoff Wilson campaigned hard against it and and won a lot of support. Going to be hard to win those votes back for Labor and the Libs are going to use it every election like how work choices became an anchor around their necks.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 03, 2021, 12:09:16 pm
He is brainless and unelectable.  A tool.  Then again, so is turnbull.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on August 03, 2021, 01:10:18 pm
That's the problem, Capcom.  Most of them are unelectable, but we do it to spite ourselves anyway.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 10, 2021, 04:47:33 pm
We have a lot of forum members here who'd have relatives over in Greece that under threat from the fires.

I hope they are all safe and well and remain that way!

Check out the scenes from the ferry leaving Evia in this Guardian video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUOTetUBVCk
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on August 10, 2021, 05:30:05 pm
I can tell you some stories.

My cousin is a fire fighter in the Peleponese.  Its a proper horror show, and they are seeing a 46 degree heat wave at the moment. 

The saddest part is that this has been happening every year for years, and most of the time, they are arsonists.

The worst part, is that the government has failed to increase its workload, rendering the folk on evia largely fighting for themselves as they have no fire fighting presence.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on August 10, 2021, 05:56:11 pm
I can tell you some stories.

My cousin is a fire fighter in the Peleponese.  Its a proper horror show, and they are seeing a 46 degree heat wave at the moment. 

The saddest part is that this has been happening every year for years, and most of the time, they are arsonists.

The worst part, is that the government has failed to increase its workload, rendering the folk on evia largely fighting for themselves as they have no fire fighting presence.

That’s disturbing reading Thry. For a country that’s a member of the EU I would have expected plenty of assistance to have been forthcoming.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on August 10, 2021, 06:24:52 pm
We all know what 46C feels like.  Looks much like it was in Orbost early last year.  Effin' terrifying.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on August 10, 2021, 09:07:08 pm
That’s disturbing reading Thry. For a country that’s a member of the EU I would have expected plenty of assistance to have been forthcoming.
fair play to some of the neighbours.  Greece has received some help from 22 odd nations as far and wide as USA, Russia and Egypt.

Some more than others, but beggars cannot be choosers. 

The public sentiment is very annoyed at the Greek government who seem to be forever not acting in the public interest. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 16, 2021, 10:13:45 am
Nuclear Subs, ............... now there is a tell about what the politicians are really thinking! :o

The difference between what they say and what they think!

Is nuclear power next, should it be?

Personally, I see it as a natural direction / evolution, almost a no brainer, you end up with skilled military trained technicians retiring into the energy sector and Joe Average Australia gets cheap low carbon energy.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on September 16, 2021, 11:47:19 am
Nuclear Subs, ............... now there is a tell about what the politicians are really thinking! :o

The difference between what they say and what they think!

Is nuclear power next, should it be?

Personally, I see it as a natural direction / evolution, almost a no brainer, you end up with skilled military trained technicians retiring into the energy sector and Joe Average Australia gets cheap low carbon energy.

Already China has made their feelings known.  So has that child PM who has said she won't allow our nuclear powered subs to dock in NZ waters ...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Professer E on September 16, 2021, 12:32:19 pm
But she's more than happy for half her population to work in Australia and everyone to go there for holidays
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 16, 2021, 12:47:33 pm
Already China has made their feelings known.  So has that child PM who has said she won't allow our nuclear powered subs to dock in NZ waters ...
They don't need to, that is the whole point of them!

But the NZ Military will happily allow them to patrol and protect Antarctic whales or NZ waters from illegal Chinese fishing, such is the hypocrisy!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 16, 2021, 12:56:24 pm
Already China has made their feelings known.
China want to slip in the backdoor unobserved and give your missus or daughter a good rogering while you are distracted out the front watching the feuding Korean neighbours go head to head.

They could just wait out conventional resources, and then move at their convenience, nuclear resources that have long term persistence in the critical zones put an end to that!

NZ might well regret pretending to be the French, it won't save them as China do not care about them, China doesn't even care much about it's own!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on September 16, 2021, 01:33:06 pm
"China want to slip in the backdoor unobserved and give your missus or daughter a good rogering"

Leave me out if it, please LP!  :D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 16, 2021, 01:50:58 pm
Leave me out if it, please LP!  :D
Roger Roger!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on September 16, 2021, 02:24:01 pm
But she's more than happy for half her population to work in Australia and everyone to go there for holidays

What she needs is a chaff bag
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 22, 2021, 09:19:27 am
Earth tremor.? Just got shaken around in my house, very weird experience.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on September 22, 2021, 09:24:38 am
Earth tremor.? Just got shaken around in my house, very weird experience.

Got it in Orbost.  Quick, ring Adam Bandt
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on September 22, 2021, 09:27:46 am
Earth tremor.? Just got shaken around in my house, very weird experience.

Knocked picture frames over in my house.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 22, 2021, 09:53:59 am
Knocked picture frames over in my house.
Earthquake 5.8 over a good section of the state...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 22, 2021, 10:12:17 am
Got it in Orbost.  Quick, ring Adam Bandt
Global warming, or the Chinese using their secret Earthquake weapon in retaliation for the nuclear sub deal?

(https://www.denofgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/007-dr-no.jpg)

Max Zorin would be proud!

Given the location, it could have been BT trying to light his fridge again?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 22, 2021, 10:23:58 am
Universal shock at Carlton coaching appointment causes massive tremor!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 22, 2021, 11:47:09 am
I'm waiting for the FB reports that China has invented a flashless nuke!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on September 22, 2021, 12:50:26 pm
Took me back to living in NZ a few years back, though not as full-on as a couple we experienced in Wellington.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 22, 2021, 03:33:09 pm
Took me back to living in NZ a few years back, though not as full-on as a couple we experienced in Wellington.
Yep, I've been in a few around Wellington, Taupo and Christchurch, they felt quite different. The Christchurch one I missed being hurt in a collapsed roof of the Riccarton Mall shopping centre food court by only about 5 minutes. Today I noticed the rubble and felt a gradual build up over several tens of seconds, in NZ they tend to be quite a bit more abrupt. Luckily I wasn't there for either of the big ones.

I've experienced quite a few in Indonesia as well, but they are different too being some being related to volcanoes so they often have lots of little lead up rumbles.

I suppose it always depends on how far away you are and how deep it is.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: tonyo on September 23, 2021, 08:07:16 am
I'm only surprised that Andrew Bolt & Co haven't written an opinion piece laying the blame for the earthquake on the lockdown rules.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 23, 2021, 09:25:08 am
I'm only surprised that Andrew Bolt & Co haven't written an opinion piece laying the blame for the earthquake on the lockdown rules.
But everybody knows it's because of the dams reducing the flow in the Ovens, Snowy and Murray!

When mother earth dries out it cracks, and when it cracks, bada bing bada boom!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on September 24, 2021, 04:13:38 pm
https://theconversation.com/tom-wills-story-is-the-afls-opportunity-for-truth-telling-about-its-ugly-history-168381
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 24, 2021, 04:35:24 pm
https://theconversation.com/tom-wills-story-is-the-afls-opportunity-for-truth-telling-about-its-ugly-history-168381
I'm not a big subscriber to feeling guilt for the sins of the father, if our 1st Nations want to put a spotlight on people in that frame of reference they best be very careful what they ask for in terms of anthropology and genetic determinations because the how, why and who changes almost weekly. With the history of who is actually here and how they came to be dominant being far from certain.

They may have to redefine it to "The sins of the father in the last two centuries" to ultimately retain a definitive crown!

It really reminds me of the Pacific Islander debates, which are defined in the modern day more by politics at the exclusion of some science.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on October 01, 2021, 09:40:11 am
https://theconversation.com/germany-election-winners-losers-and-how-the-greens-emerged-as-kingmakers-podcast-168956

Western Europe must be one of the very few places left on Earth with any semblance of sanity.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on October 13, 2021, 11:05:42 am
https://theconversation.com/introducing-david-card-the-2021-nobel-prize-in-economics-winner-who-made-the-minimum-wage-respectable-169715
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on October 13, 2021, 01:56:56 pm
How ordinary is the media these days?

I've just read about that young Gabby Petito while I was having lunch. We have been bombarded over the last month with stories about her plight, until a couple of weeks ago it was "Where is Gabby", "Gabby was last seen here", Gabby was tracked there", all the time the young lady was already deceased at least a month before her body was found a week or two back.

I suppose the media didn't know, but it does seem to say something about the quality or morality of modern reporting!

In the old days you would say nothing until you had the proof or at least some semblance of proof, now it's make the spurious claims as soon as possible to be first, and deal with the fallout later!

How the families of these victims must suffer to provide the some media monarch with another fancy dinner!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on October 19, 2021, 10:07:54 am
1959 School Morning assembly...the Pledge.

I honor my God
I serve my Queen
I salute the Flag...at which point we saluted the flag.

Times have changed. ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on October 19, 2021, 10:55:34 am
1959 School Morning assembly...the Pledge.

I honor my God
I serve my Queen
I salute the Flag...at which point we saluted the flag.

Times have changed. ;D

These days this is what it is instead Lods:

Quote
'I begin today by acknowledging the Traditional Owners of the land on which we <gather/meet> today, and pay my respects to their Elders past, present and emerging. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples here today.'
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on October 19, 2021, 10:59:43 am
1959 School Morning assembly...the Pledge.

I honor my God
I serve my Queen
I salute the Flag...at which point we saluted the flag.

Times have changed. ;D

I remember the unseemly rugby scrum to get out of the picture theatre before being forced to stand for the national anthem at the end of the evening program.  😄
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on October 19, 2021, 11:27:00 am
I remember the unseemly rugby scrum to get out of the picture theatre before being forced to stand for the national anthem at the end of the evening program.  😄
Errr, I'm not sure whether to take that light heartedly or with shock and awe! :o

Should I roll out the player piano, and turn on the limelights?

On a serious note, there are good and bad aspects of both sides of this old argument. Nationalism had it's place, but utilitarian as it may be it can lead to awful things, it's major modern critics talk about how divisive it can be retrospectively, suppressing identity, etc., etc..

Yet with some irony, to me at least, it's never been clearer than at the moment that the very inverse is divisive as well!

Perhaps it's not the what but the how, or perhaps it's that the what has become so confused and blended that it has almost become ubiquitous?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on October 19, 2021, 02:26:26 pm
Some people never learn ................ and have no face!

Seen below the former head of ICACistan picking up a few last minute G&C* trinkets on the way to the courthouse!

(https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/6f3e8f93aff4b74ef1052650cdda1c94)

*Def. G&C,
Graft and Corruption, (aka. Gift and Collusion), pronounced .......... goodies!
Typically consisting of a Bottle of Wine, New Shoes, Diamond Necklace, Rolex, keys to a new Astin Martin, keys to a new Front Door or Top OS Bureaucratic Appointment, Untraceable Bearer Bonds, A Royal Pardon, or an All Expenses Paid Holiday to Rodd Island!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 19, 2021, 04:32:51 pm
Gladys is rumoured to be getting her ScoMo reward and will get a run at a Federal Seat...probably vs that nuisance independent Zali Steggall in Warringah who knocked over Brother Tony Abbott last election in a very dirty affair where Abbott's campaign of digging dirt vs Ms Steggall ended up costing him the seat with a big loss.
Dont like Gladiola's chances but a good showing might have her get a cushy govt job with ScoMo's crew if he can win vs Albo...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on October 19, 2021, 04:46:00 pm
Gladys is rumoured to be getting her ScoMo reward and will get a run at a Federal Seat...probably vs that nuisance independent Zali Steggall in Warringah who knocked over Brother Tony Abbott last election in a very dirty affair where Abbott's campaign of digging dirt vs Ms Steggall ended up costing him the seat with a big loss.
Dont like Gladiola's chances but a good showing might have her get a cushy govt job with ScoMo's crew if he can win vs Albo...

Yep, I’m sure young Gladys will be well taken care of.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on October 19, 2021, 05:03:14 pm
Anything would be an improvement over Steggle.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on October 19, 2021, 05:15:04 pm
1959 School Morning assembly...the Pledge.

I honor my God
I serve my Queen
I salute the Flag...at which point we saluted the flag.

Times have changed. ;D

In Victorian schools it was the Patriotic Declaration:

"I love God and my country, I will honour the flag, I will serve the Queen and cheerfully obey my parents, teachers and the law."

I suspect that it didn't achieve the desired effect; the baby-boomers were probably more likely to take part in civil disobedience than  those who came before and after, and they deserted the established churches in droves.

The Patriotic Declaration is very different to the acknowledgement of Traditional Owners Thry.  The declaration was intended to instill obedience and adherence to a set of values imposed by Government.  The acknowledgement is simply paying respect.

By the way, I wrote the first Traditional Owner acknowledgement for the Victorian Government at the request of Steve Bracks.  It was meant to be a form of words to follow when folk weren't sure how to respectfully acknowledge TOs.  Public servants, MPs etc were encouraged to tailor their acknowledgement to the occasion.  It's changed a bit since then and is often parroted rather than tailored ... and I don't really understand how you can have "emerging elders"  ::)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on October 19, 2021, 08:40:12 pm
As a kid, be it 7 or 17 I simply couldn't relate to a god or royalty. So I recited the words that the Spotted One mentioned above to prevent getting in the shizen. With my father having a landscaping business which employed many labourers from Italy, Greece, UK, US, NZ and Canada, I grew up with a fascination for other countries, not just my own. As for my parents, well I quickly learned to do what I was told if I didn't want 'hiding' as my folks would word it.

Since venturing into the big wide world my appreciation, even love, of other nations only increased... and my love our country grew pretty huge but not at the expense or demonizing of other lands, peoples or cultures.

Personally, I'd be much more in favour of kids acknowledging values and principles rather than deities, people and geography... pledging allegiance to such things as humanitarianism, honesty, decency, respect (for all life), empathy, kindness, curiosity, education and learning seem to be far greater avenues to growing a great culture and humanity.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on October 19, 2021, 09:59:48 pm
In Victorian schools it was the Patriotic Declaration:

"I love God and my country, I will honour the flag, I will serve the Queen and cheerfully obey my parents, teachers and the law."

I suspect that it didn't achieve the desired effect; the baby-boomers were probably more likely to take part in civil disobedience than  those who came before and after, and they deserted the established churches in droves.

The Patriotic Declaration is very different to the acknowledgement of Traditional Owners Thry.  The declaration was intended to instill obedience and adherence to a set of values imposed by Government.  The acknowledgement is simply paying respect.

By the way, I wrote the first Traditional Owner acknowledgement for the Victorian Government at the request of Steve Bracks.  It was meant to be a form of words to follow when folk weren't sure how to respectfully acknowledge TOs.  Public servants, MPs etc were encouraged to tailor their acknowledgement to the occasion.  It's changed a bit since then and is often parroted rather than tailored ... and I don't really understand how you can have "emerging elders"  ::)

Same same.

How people felt about the oath is how this looks to me.

We didn't do either at high school.  We stood for the anthem and that was about it.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on October 19, 2021, 10:56:12 pm
Anything would be an improvement over Steggle.

I don't know, anyone who can rid Parliament of the malign presence of the master of the sh1t-eating grin deserves several terms as the Member for Warringah.  Besides, it's become quite a progressive electorate and Ms Steggall is well qualified to represent her constituency.

I reckon independent MPs like Steggall provide greater diversity and a grass roots connection than products of the party sausage machine, like Berejiklian, can ever achieve, and they're not beholding to the party that gifts them their seat.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 21, 2021, 11:54:17 am
Windows 11...anyone upgraded or know anything about it ?, I usually wait till the user jury post the pros and cons in consumer reviews etc before I take the plunge with upgrades.
It is a free upgrade at the minute I believe but if its no great improvement and more big brother add ons from Microsoft then I might pass...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on October 21, 2021, 01:11:19 pm
Windows 11...anyone upgraded or know anything about it ?, I usually wait till the user jury post the pros and cons in consumer reviews etc before I take the plunge with upgrades.
It is a free upgrade at the minute I believe but if its no great improvement and more big brother add ons from Microsoft then I might pass...
I wouldn't go just yet, it's very early.

Many will also find that at the moment it won't even install on laptops that are only two years old, requires quite a new hardware with the Trusted Platform Module 2.0 enabled. However, there are rumours they will extend the range of compatible hardware further down the track, they will probably have to because nobody is going to dump a laptop or desktop that is only 2 years old just to get the newest version of Windows.

Another problem, is that some of the pre-existing existing software is not yet 100% compatible, I've been reading a lot of websites discussing the upgrade / rollback cycle where people have upgraded only to find they had to immediately downgrade to get some program they want to use working again.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 21, 2021, 01:59:54 pm
I wouldn't go just yet, it's very early.

Many will also find that at the moment it won't even install on laptops that are only two years old, requires quite a new hardware with the Trusted Platform Module 2.0 enabled. However, there are rumours they will extend the range of compatible hardware further down the track, they will probably have to because nobody is going to dump a laptop or desktop that is only 2 years old just to get the newest version of Windows.

Another problem, is that some of the pre-existing existing software is not yet 100% compatible, I've been reading a lot of websites discussing the upgrade / rollback cycle where people have upgraded only to find they had to immediately downgrade to get some program they want to use working again.
Thanks LP, think I will take your advice and use the old rule of if its working then don't fix it..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on October 21, 2021, 02:15:12 pm
Thanks LP, think I will take your advice and use the old rule of if its working then don't fix it..

Agree with LP ... Been looking at it a fair bit, and like precious little about it.  Wide berth
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on October 21, 2021, 03:01:40 pm
When Win 10 came out it's performance and level of compatibility was awful, it failed to support a lot of legacy hardware, and degraded the end user experience relative to existing Win 8 or Win 8.1 installations.

At about the 6 month mark after launch most of those issues had been resolved and Win 10 became the better option even on a lot of older hardware.

I can't claim it's going to be the same this time around with Win 11, but the early experiences are very similar, a lot might come down to whether Microsoft want to push new hardware sales in the short term.

If you are an Android phone user, in the long term there are some significant advantages built into Win 11, because it looks like a Win 11 device will have an AppStore that lets you load your favourite Android / Google Play phone Apps on the computer desktop. At the moment this is only going to be Win 11 but it may even come to Win 10 long term.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on October 22, 2021, 10:31:11 am
Thanks LP, think I will take your advice and use the old rule of if its working then don't fix it..

Likewise, thank you, Spotted One... and ditto, EB1 - if it's rockin' along okay don't stuff with it!!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on October 22, 2021, 10:58:13 am
Can back up largely what LP is stating above with one minor difference.

A lot of older hardware (those with a tradition BIOS and inability to run UEFI) are not going to be compatible with windows 11.  The whole reason windows 11 has come into existence is to do with cyber security (or a cynic would state a way to make a lot of money).  The UEFI model runs inconjunction with the TPM security module in order to deliver much greater security to hardware and software, and prevent devices from running what is known as a root kit (long story short, something that bypasses windows before it starts).

Its still early doors, but the whole model is trying to cut off ransomware at the delivery mechanism, rather than reactively fixing encrypted computers.  The problem is real, if your hardware isnt compatible, then windows 11 isnt going to be worth the upgrade unless we have a remarkable difference in how things operate moving forward, but I dont believe that will be the case.

We have installed it on a virtual machine at work for testing its capabilities and thus far from my limited use (only a few minutes of pointing and clicking) if windows and IOS had a baby, you would result in windows 11.

The start bar, is going down the bottom in a very mac way of operating. 

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 27, 2021, 06:48:25 pm
Can back up largely what LP is stating above with one minor difference.

A lot of older hardware (those with a tradition BIOS and inability to run UEFI) are not going to be compatible with windows 11.  The whole reason windows 11 has come into existence is to do with cyber security (or a cynic would state a way to make a lot of money).  The UEFI model runs inconjunction with the TPM security module in order to deliver much greater security to hardware and software, and prevent devices from running what is known as a root kit (long story short, something that bypasses windows before it starts).

Its still early doors, but the whole model is trying to cut off ransomware at the delivery mechanism, rather than reactively fixing encrypted computers.  The problem is real, if your hardware isnt compatible, then windows 11 isnt going to be worth the upgrade unless we have a remarkable difference in how things operate moving forward, but I dont believe that will be the case.

We have installed it on a virtual machine at work for testing its capabilities and thus far from my limited use (only a few minutes of pointing and clicking) if windows and IOS had a baby, you would result in windows 11.

The start bar, is going down the bottom in a very mac way of operating. 


I prefer Windows on a Desktop where I can fiddle a bit myself , not a real fan of Macs or anything Mac related so you have added confirmation in my mind that Windows 11 being the omen child of the two operating systems is a pass.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on November 06, 2021, 12:31:48 pm
Just harking back to the discussion of the harvesting of oak trees to rebuild Notre Dame cathedral.

In 1807, an attack on Copenhagen by the Royal Navy effectively completed the destruction of the Danish fleet.  The Danes responded by planting 90,000 oak trees to provide the timber to rebuild their navy.  In 2007, the Danish Nature Agency, successor to the royal forester, informed the Defense Ministry that the trees were ready.

Two of the oak trees were felled in 2017 to build a replica Viking ship but the demand for wooden ships of the line isn't what it used to be.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on November 06, 2021, 02:09:46 pm
How freaking stupid are smokers?

Flubbo is apparently in the media claiming it wasn't the decades of durries that led to his health problems it was his blood sugar.

FFS, what a moron, what utter denial!

If you have smoked for two or three decades, pretty much every health condition you have or are likely to have is made far worse by the durries, end of story!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on November 06, 2021, 02:25:27 pm
How freaking stupid are smokers?

Flubbo is apparently in the media claiming it wasn't the decades of durries that led to his health problems it was his blood sugar.

He may well be diabetic.  Not to excuse smoking mind you.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on November 06, 2021, 02:38:47 pm
How freaking stupid are smokers?

Flubbo is apparently in the media claiming it wasn't the decades of durries that led to his health problems it was his blood sugar.

FFS, what a moron, what utter denial!

If you have smoked for two or three decades, pretty much every health condition you have or are likely to have is made far worse by the durries, end of story!

Blood sugar is a symptom, not a cause.

Durries, junk food, grog, limited exercise, not enough sleep, getting upset when your footy team is done for drug cheating would all contribute to high blood sugar levels.  However, I understand that Robinson is a Type 1 diabetic and I think that he has acknowledged that his lifestyle and attitude have played a major role in his health problems.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: blueday on November 07, 2021, 07:47:34 am
Blood sugar is a symptom, not a cause.



Durries, junk food, grog, limited exercise, not enough sleep, getting upset when your footy team is done for drug cheating would all contribute to high blood sugar levels.  However, I understand that Robinson is a Type 1 diabetic and I think that he has acknowledged that his lifestyle and attitude have played a major role in his health problems.
I am a T1 diabetic. If he is T1 and a smoker what happened was inevitable and stupid. As SAID above blood sugar is a symptom, long term high BS level can damage major organs, short tern low BS can have you wind up in a comma or even die. Its likely the former that was his issue when combined with being a long term smoker that's all kind of trouble.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 14, 2021, 11:35:46 am
https://au.yahoo.com/news/brass-against-apologise-frontwoman-sophia-200657827.html
I know Dave Grohl likes to invite members of the audience on stage to play drums, guitar etc but this is a bit different.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 24, 2021, 04:44:13 pm
Greetings fellow CSCers. Just wishing each and every one of you and yours a bloody terrific festive season and NY. Hoping for yawl a healthy and happy 2022 with loads of happy events. From joviality, deep chats to fiesty exchanges, there's not a poster on here I don't appreciate. May it all continue in brilliant BlueBaggers spirit in 2022... and may many of our posts begin with, "What a great win, I was really impressed with..."

All the very best from Mr and Mrs Baggers!! ;D  ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on December 24, 2021, 05:44:23 pm
Merry Christmas Baggers
...and Merry Christmas to all the CSC family.
I guess it is true that you can 'choose your friends but you can't choose your family' :D

I just got a message from my good mate Vossy wishing me a happy holiday season.
I'm pretty sure he'd want me to pass that on.
He's also thanking me for my support this year...I don't remember supporting Port
But it was nice to get a message. :)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mantis on December 24, 2021, 05:44:36 pm
Thanks Baggers. Lovely thoughts and very much appreciated. I wish everyone the best through the Christmas period whether it is celebrated or not, and best wishes for a new year that might bring more fortunate circumstances for all on this site. All the best lovely people. Let us also hope our club can start to climb the ladder like it hasn’t for a long time. That is one subject matter we can’t argue.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: crashlander on December 24, 2021, 09:43:17 pm
Merry Christmas!
May the spirit of Christmas be with us all.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on December 25, 2021, 08:22:22 am
Many thanks Baggers and a very merry Christmas and Happier New Year to you and all CSCers! Let peace go with you. 😎
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 25, 2021, 08:39:50 am
Merry Xmas and let's hope for a happy blue year! 

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on January 25, 2022, 08:21:20 am
Pretty grave news up north with the potential escalation between Russia and the Ukraine.

Insomnia aside, I listened to a Pommie political analyst overnight that made some alarming assertions. Distilled down her comments were basically;

 - The Russia / Ukraine conflict is being egged on by China.
 - China want a distraction in the north so they can point the world in that direction, a "look over there" moment.
 - While everyone is distracted in the north, China will increase it's push and build up towards the south.
 - China are betting the pandemic has stretched Western resources and resolve, and Europe will be too occupied to worry about SE Asia.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on January 25, 2022, 11:07:01 am
I think the Russians will probably do something in Ukraine.
It might be a partial incursion into areas of Ukraine that have strong Russian ties and sympathies.
or
it could take the form of a pro-Russian coup who then invite the Russian forces into the country to help with order.

What would be the response from Europe...a lot of bluster.
Several European countries, like Germany, have a strong reliance on Russian gas supplies.
The extent of Russian expansion and re-consolidation to something like the old USSR would probably be limited to immediately adjacent countries...Belarus, Ukraine...and the 'stans' to the south.

The further west, the more unlikely that those old Soviet era countries would wish a return to Russian influence.

I suspect if the Chinese started some shenanigans the US focus would switch to South-East Asia pretty quickly.


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on January 25, 2022, 11:13:44 am
I suspect if the Chinese started some shenanigans the US focus would switch to South-East Asia pretty quickly.
Possibly, but are you naturally optimistic?

It's interesting to think different regions have different perspectives, everybody thought the world had become more altruistic in recent times, then the pandemic hit and the big players all become introspective. Western economies vaccinated to booster level while the 3rd world suffered.

Would conflict be any different?

Japan will have some say in this, as will Sth Korea, and I agree I expect the USA will answer the call.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on January 25, 2022, 11:25:49 am
It's just a personal opinion, but I suspect that while Europe was a big issue for America post WW2, and especially during the Cold War, the USA probably feels that the Pacific is much more strategically important to their interests these days than Europe.


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on January 25, 2022, 11:50:45 am
It's just a personal opinion, but I suspect that while Europe was a big issue for America post WW2, and especially during the Cold War, the USA probably feels that the Pacific is much more strategically important to their interests these days than Europe.
Probably, but there is still a lot of old money out and about.

What happens with China on the border with India will also be interesting, and how Pakistan reacts.

Lot's of opportunity for this situation to head in the wrong direction, the Taliban has shown us how bad politicians and bureaucrats are at making predictions.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on January 25, 2022, 12:21:28 pm
Putin is just toying with Biden.  He (as usual) will do nothing.  ZERO political capital left.

They sense he's done and they'd be right.  Afghanistan proved that.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on January 25, 2022, 12:25:07 pm
Afghanistan proved that.
I think that blaming Biden for Afghanistan lacks credibility, the damage was done long long before Biden arrived, it would be a bit like trying to blame Chancellor Merkel for WWII!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on January 25, 2022, 02:34:03 pm
I think that blaming Biden for Afghanistan lacks credibility, the damage was done long long before Biden arrived, it would be a bit like trying to blame Chancellor Merkel for WWII!

Then why did not he evacuate from the protected fortified Bagram airport?  He alone stuffed that up.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on January 25, 2022, 03:07:40 pm
Then why did not he evacuate from the protected fortified Bagram airport?  He alone stuffed that up.
I'm not sure at this level a President is even involved in the planning.

I'm neither a Biden booster or a politician booster, but it seems a bit of a stretch to blame politicians for all such details. Maybe you can blame them for picking the date, but even that might not be a valid criticism, the broader strategy seems to be part of a long lead-up.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on January 25, 2022, 05:09:24 pm
For something as critical as that knowing the world is watching you?  He will not last much longer.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on January 27, 2022, 01:14:49 pm
Interesting Biden has made a statement about the Right to Repair.

It'll make him some corporate enemies but if the US go down that route officially it could deliver some of the biggest de-carbonisation and waste reduction impacts of any single law decision.

So much modern waste, a phone or TV gets replaced for want of a $0.10 part, a $200 circuit board gets swapped out for the want of a $0.01 diode.

The other week a relative of mine was sent a whole new air fryer because the one just supplied failed after a couple of weeks, the supplier didn't even want to old one back they told my relative to dump it. Think of the waste, think of the freight. So my relative ended up with two because once they got the new one a mate opened the old one up and found it was just a loose wire, a loose wire! They tried to sell it but nobody wants a used air fryer, so they gave it away!

All because the companies that make and supply this stuff refuse to provide information needed for local servicing and repairs, they keep the knowledge commercial in confidence.

btw., Even if the corporates published the information it bears no impact on patents or copyrights, nobody can use it for a competitive product without a valid license until the patent expires which is typically long long after the technology is redundant.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 02, 2022, 10:25:07 am
So CheatsFC allegedly have more crooks and killers connected to them than any other AFL club.

Surprise, surprise! ::) 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 07, 2022, 12:12:12 pm
Chinese tennis player Peng Shuai is now in a tough spot, you'll never get the truth from her at home or abroad, it doesn't work like that.

People count for nothing, lives count for nothing.

Twice while I was in China I've seen people "disappear" off the street, the associate I was with basically repeated the same allegation twice, "They will never be seen again!" The first time it happened I asked him, is that mafia? He said, no it was officials / government! They did something wrong, didn't pay their tax, didn't pay their bribes to officials, perhaps some official thinks they were ripped off by them in some way, perhaps they offended somebody high up, maybe they just said the wrong thing at the wrong time in a public forum.

But they are now gone, no explanation, no investigation, no court case, no record, no trace, the typical official explanation is there are a lot of people in China, if someone doesn't want to be found they won't be found. You can just disappear!

Every Chinese citizen, who has family or relatives remaining in China mainland, Hong Kong, Singapore or even Taiwan, lives with this sort of threat everyday, there is no escaping it without disowning and abandoning your family and friends!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on February 07, 2022, 12:36:07 pm
People count for nothing, lives count for nothing.

We should NEVER have sent our team to that craphole
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 10, 2022, 11:39:00 am
Sometimes I have to question the motivations of certain areas of research, not so much in regard to why but the how.

For me a good example of this is the recent discussion about cloning Woolly Mammoths. The organisations promoting this effort aren't shy of using a bit of Hollywood to help raise a profile and funds, and I can see the possibility that even if this is successful it will lead to the public becoming disappointed and disenchanted with the outcome / science.

The reason being those promoting the effort are happy to allow an ambiguity to persist about Woolly Mammoths versus other Mammoths. Some of this is a Hollywood created problem, the Hollywood version is often a Woolly Mammoth depicted at the scale of some other Mammoth. btw., Apparently it's not even clear if all "Woolly Mammoth" variants actually had hair, and many versions that did have hair were not as big as a modern African Elephant, although the ancient Mammoths probably had bigger tusks than modern elephants.

I would have though researchers might make an effort to clarify this from the outset, but it seems not to be the case, whoever promotes this cloning effort seems happy to leave the discussion ambiguous enough that people associate Woolly Mammoths with other giant Mammoths. It's not a case of the scientists being foolishly definitive, they haven't made that mistake and they won't because they would be ripped apart by peers, it's just that they leave things understated, they leave it to human imagination.

Journalists / Bloggers are partly to blame, the modern variant of journalist isn't professional enough to ask the obvious unasked question, they just assume and write, a bit like me I suppose! :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 18, 2022, 10:36:04 am
Social media is sick, and maybe society along with it. If not all the COVID conspiracy theories unravelling the best efforts of health care workers, crazy 5G protests, people setting cell phone or wind turbines alight. But last night I saw the bottom of the barrel, courtesy of Channel Dots.

This week we heard about an utter tragedy, a young man on a mid-afternoon swim taken by a huge shark in front of adult and children witnesses. A event it seems live streamed on social media for all to see, long before the person was identified and / or family notified of his demise. How low can people go, not only failing to assist but broadcasting a total lack of empathy live to the world, probably for profit and fame.

Then the news media keen not to be beaten to the story reports it as a breaking story, again long before the family of the man is identified. How low can they go, surely that is the bottom of the barrel?

But Channel Dots managed to go even lower. In what can only be described as a grubby ratings grab, some sick bastard executive did their best to maximise a bonus by allegedly changing the program schedule to broadcast a re-run of Jaws. What the feck is wrong with these people?

When we lock up drug addicts and the mentally ill, we are locking up the wrong people, we should be lining up these empathy devoid psychopathic executives, or perhaps even setting them against the wall and shooting these sick messengers, after all they only tell you something for profit and fame never as a service, even if it's going to save a life they still put it behind a pay-wall and set the potential victims a honey trap!

Don't worry about going out and shooting sharks, you've got the wrong target!

Meta, Alphabet, News Ltd and the like must be brought to heal, they are biting their owner, they bite the general public! Do any of our politicians have the metal, or are they all spineless?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on February 18, 2022, 10:59:53 am
Do any of our politicians have the metal, or are they all spineless?

You actually need an answer to that?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on February 18, 2022, 01:50:49 pm
Interesting final sentence in an opinion piece by Darren Kane published in The Age (online):
Quote
And, she’s 15 years old, FFS.
I love my swear words, so it doesn't outrage me. But it's interesting that this would go thru to the keeper. It says a lot about the extent of proofreading (or the lack of it) that goes into published articles these days. Or am I missing some more milquetoast meaning of FFS?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 18, 2022, 09:38:55 pm
Meta, Alphabet, News Ltd and the like must be brought to heal, they are biting their owner, they bite the general public!

I know this is a bug bear of yours, but if you want to live longer, try this simple trick....




Don't watch it.
Don't read it.
Don't waste your time with it at all.

I don't bother with any of it and my life is better for it.

If 'news' is actually important enough that you must know it, it will find you.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 19, 2022, 05:52:41 am
I know this is a bug bear of yours, but if you want to live longer, try this simple trick
It's a bug bear because I see it's impact on youth, it doesn't affect me at all, but young adults are harming themselves at higher than ever rates and the fakeness of the way the world is presented to them is a big contributing factor.

These organizations are run by adults who make deliberate choices to harm for profit, a different type of weapon but a weapon no doubt!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 19, 2022, 09:20:03 am
These organizations are run by adults who make deliberate choices to harm for profit, a different type of weapon but a weapon no doubt!

I don't believe they harm for profit, but rather profit at any cost. An important distinction. Accountability, responsibility... Empathy, all fly out the window. Just get those 'clicks'. But I certainly am equally outraged by this profound, and harmful, lack of decency from too many commercial media enterprises. Some of the opinion writers for the HUN engage pure divisiveness. Perhaps as Denzel W said recently, "Don't watch the News and be uninformed, watch the News and be misinformed!"

However, K does have an extremely valid point re subjecting yourself to sh1tty information that actually brings you down. I am reminded of Stoicism (Cognitive Behaviour Therapy actually has a measure of its roots in Stoicism) and the principle of understanding what you can change and what you can't change. Getting 'up in Annie's room' over things you can't influence, impact or change is a recipe for unhappiness or worse. Though a letter or some communication to these purveyors of misery will satisfy a sense of having at least done something. Then just move on. That's the tack I choose. Apologies for any preachiness!

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on February 19, 2022, 11:37:46 am
My Dad was a newspaper man.
Printer/Journalist/ Editor
The media bias has always existed in some form.
Your employment basically depended on aligning yourself with your publisher's views.
You could stretch it a little but go too far and 'goodbye job.'

The problem is that over the years the bias and influence of the folks that run the various form of media has drifted so far from the basic reporting of facts without an added biased opinion thrown in that it becomes impossible to get a fair opinion on anything without constant channel or newspaper changing... and naturally folks tend to gravitate to outlets that support their own views and bias, rejecting most information no matter how valid from alternate sources.

Now multiply all that stuff by a factor of 100 and you have the 'grubbiness' that is social media.
A kangaroo court of opinion that has folks  tried, judged and executed before they're even given an opportunity to defend a position.



Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 19, 2022, 12:06:13 pm
My Dad was a newspaper man.
Printer/Journalist/ Editor
The media bias has always existed in some form.
Your employment basically depended on aligning yourself with your publisher's views.
You could stretch it a little but go too far and 'goodbye job.'
@Lods‍ Sounds like I've walked a similar path to your dad, I've been through that industry spending more than a decade in it filling a range of rolls in both print media and broadcast radio. In the end I came to realise that I was wasting a good education, and exited to an engineering career after luckily reaping some of the rewards of a Murdoch led takeover bid.

As @Baggers‍ points out, my main issue is the modern lack of accountability. If we published back then what they publish now you would have got the sack. In the past no matter how you coloured the report, it still had to be based in defendable facts, that seems to no longer be a requirement. Probably the closest I came to modern media behaviour was working with Scotty Palmer on sport, but even then he only embellished and dramatized stuff that was otherwise true, now they just make it up and they do not care who they hurt in the process! I distinguish Palmer's sporting journalism from the The Truth's UFO policy! ;D

The recent argy bargy surrounding Sam McClure awards shows you they no longer have boundaries, they even stoop to eating their own!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 25, 2022, 10:08:32 am
War is nothing to brag about, the media coverage is abhorrent!

There are segments of the media lauding the sinking of a Russian ship today, like it's something to brag about. But in the case of the Soviet navy those ships are full the children of fellow humans, I'm not sure how it works in Russia but it may well be the case that many on board are perhaps even conscripts or on national service.

Deaths on any side is abhorrent, the war lords of the world should target those tyrants that value life so little, but they don't because they know if they do it will be Quid Pro Quo. So they send the little people who they know have no hope of administering retribution against those who issue the orders! Minions against minions, sent to war like Lemmings.

Putin or whoever, are the gutless, they make war because they basically live in fear!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 25, 2022, 11:18:59 am
Provoking NATO to the point that emphasises the solidarity amongst all members to unify against Russia should really worry Putin.  If he can't even defeat Ukraine, and loses 5 generals, thousands of men and armaments in the process, he stands no chance.   Sum of all fears.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 25, 2022, 11:45:31 am
I understand that people are saying this is Russia vs NATO, but lets face up to something here.

Almost all of the wars in the last 100 years that have been fought, are the result of historic rise and fall of empires, problems to do with modern concepts of ownership and nationalism including national identify, and largely resources and land just like they always have been.

The USA's sphere of influence has been eroding for quite some time, and this is linked (not exclusively) to British Imperialism, the fall of Roman empire, Geopolitics, the fall of the Ottoman empire, modern nationalism creating issues, political ideological agenda, and for the most part, bloody mindedness.

The victims of all wars ever fought are innocent people who are involved whether they like it or not, and I think its over simplifying things to place 100% of the blame on one person, and more specifically one nation here.

The former USSR were a "united nation" and far longer than any unique national identity that exists currently in Ukraine, and considering Hitler elected to march on it, before he marched on Moscow, speaks for the importance of its locale for both resources, and tactical advantages.

Whilst I disagree with the very premise of going to war, because violence should be used exclusively for defense, not offense, its very difficult to know the full impact of all of these actions.

One thing I like to do is, view the conflicts that we have witnessed over the last 50 or so years and choose not to view them in isolation.  They are simply the continuation of historic conflicts that have occurred throughout human history.

Humanity has struggled over much of this region for thousands of years, because they do have strategic importance.  The populations of these places have been invaded, and reinvaded many times through history and in our modern viewpoint, we have understood a largely peaceful existence with humanity prospering in ways that previous generations could only dream of.

The real PROBLEM is global.  That era of prosperity we can see crumbling almost across the globe and COVID was but one sign of a new threat to our lives.  Resources are going to start becoming problematic, and as a result, we are going to see new wars fought over old territory more frequently.  The sooner the world appreciates this, (I am not saying don't fight on Ukraine's behalf here) the better off we will all be.

Without wanting to point out fault for any one person or nation here, in 1974 the Island of Cyprus was invaded by Turkey to the point where the Island nation now has a split and demilitarised zone through it.  In Israel the 6 day war was waged and the neighbours were defeated, the Korean war, The Vietnam war, the split of the former Yugoslav republic, the Bosnian Crisis, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, and yet all of a sudden I see a very different messaging surrounding this particular one, and the only reason I can see is that the aggressor in this case, is a different actor.

Anyone have any any reason why this is any different to the other issues we have witnessed through history?  Once upon a time, the war was divided along communist/capitalist lines.  This feels a bit different.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Professer E on March 25, 2022, 12:09:03 pm
Then there's the colonisation by stealth strategy.   The poms get panned for their history, but what agreement the Solomons have signed with China will end in tears too.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 25, 2022, 12:12:49 pm
Then there's the colonisation by stealth strategy.  The poms get panned for their history, but what agreement the Solomons have signed with China will end in tears too.
Unfortunately, the people of The Solomon Islands are probably ignorant of this event, it's happening because of corrupt politicians and China knows it. China does not care about the perceptions of the people, and the bulk of Solomon Islanders might not even know a deal has been done until they are kicked off their own land to build a factory, air or naval base!

It's all part of Belt and Road, and unlike here very few local Solomon Islanders will take notice. Strategically, both our State and Federal level our politicians were asleep at the wheel, if no deliberately complicit, many were happy to point the finger after they had the cheques in the bank!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 25, 2022, 12:20:28 pm
I understand that people are saying this is Russia vs NATO, but lets face up to something here.

Almost all of the wars in the last 100 years that have been fought, are the result of historic rise and fall of empires, problems to do with modern concepts of ownership and nationalism including national identify, and largely resources and land just like they always have been.

The USA's sphere of influence has been eroding for quite some time, and this is linked (not exclusively) to British Imperialism, the fall of Roman empire, Geopolitics, the fall of the Ottoman empire, modern nationalism creating issues, political ideological agenda, and for the most part, bloody mindedness.

The victims of all wars ever fought are innocent people who are involved whether they like it or not, and I think its over simplifying things to place 100% of the blame on one person, and more specifically one nation here.

The former USSR were a "united nation" and far longer than any unique national identity that exists currently in Ukraine, and considering Hitler elected to march on it, before he marched on Moscow, speaks for the importance of its locale for both resources, and tactical advantages.

Whilst I disagree with the very premise of going to war, because violence should be used exclusively for defense, not offense, its very difficult to know the full impact of all of these actions.

One thing I like to do is, view the conflicts that we have witnessed over the last 50 or so years and choose not to view them in isolation.  They are simply the continuation of historic conflicts that have occurred throughout human history.

Humanity has struggled over much of this region for thousands of years, because they do have strategic importance.  The populations of these places have been invaded, and reinvaded many times through history and in our modern viewpoint, we have understood a largely peaceful existence with humanity prospering in ways that previous generations could only dream of.

The real PROBLEM is global.  That era of prosperity we can see crumbling almost across the globe and COVID was but one sign of a new threat to our lives.  Resources are going to start becoming problematic, and as a result, we are going to see new wars fought over old territory more frequently.  The sooner the world appreciates this, (I am not saying don't fight on Ukraine's behalf here) the better off we will all be.

Without wanting to point out fault for any one person or nation here, in 1974 the Island of Cyprus was invaded by Turkey to the point where the Island nation now has a split and demilitarised zone through it.  In Israel the 6 day war was waged and the neighbours were defeated, the Korean war, The Vietnam war, the split of the former Yugoslav republic, the Bosnian Crisis, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, and yet all of a sudden I see a very different messaging surrounding this particular one, and the only reason I can see is that the aggressor in this case, is a different actor.

Anyone have any any reason why this is any different to the other issues we have witnessed through history?  Once upon a time, the war was divided along communist/capitalist lines.  This feels a bit different.
Or, Putin is just a c@#$ of a human.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 25, 2022, 01:39:13 pm
Or, Putin is just a c@#$ of a human.

Too kind @Gointocarlton ...

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 25, 2022, 02:59:18 pm
Too kind @Gointocarlton ...


Just calling a spade a spade. Sick of animals like that bloke and the DH from China taking the pi$$ thinking we are all dumb kents.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 25, 2022, 03:19:14 pm
Putin dies and finds himself in the afterlife.  Ten years passes and he is given the opportunity to spend a day back with the living in Moscow.

Putin approaches the first person he sees and asks, “Is Kyiv still ours?”

“Yes.”

“Good!  Is Crimea still ours?”

“Yes.”

“Excellent!  How much is a cup of coffee?”

“Five euros.”


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 25, 2022, 04:18:58 pm
Well, we know how pi55 weak the UN are, but NATOs a bloody sight different.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 25, 2022, 10:45:04 pm
Not disputing that putin is a douche but find me a politician that isn't.

This video sums things up better than anything else. Find Ukraine on the map and you'll understand why this is happening.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QwsVJb-ckqM
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on March 25, 2022, 11:47:41 pm
Thry...Are you saying that if a country didn't exist in 1914 it shouldn't  exist now?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 26, 2022, 07:21:47 am
Thry...Are you saying that if a country didn't exist in 1914 it shouldn't  exist now?

Not at all Lods.

Im saying that the world has been in a state of flux for a long time, wars have been happening for a long time, and over simplifying the cause of this one being putin being a @#$!* is not doing anyone any favours.

At the end of the day people like to barrack for good guys vs bad guys, but when these events happen it should be a sombre reminder that we have lead a privleged existence and that this is human nature on show.

Nations have been invading each other for thousands of years and as far as im concerned of all the stoushes we have seen in my lifetime this one is closer to civil war/traditional war than most of the rest where nations have involved themselves in other countries business half way across the globe.

You have to admit whether the USA hit Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Libya rightly or wrongly, that wasn't exactly protecting their own interests.  In this case the Russians are definitely looking after their own interests and they actually have people in Ukraine.

The fact that I call them Ukraine not the Ukraine is a testament to my opinion here because that is a subtle difference that actually recognises their sovereignty.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 26, 2022, 07:36:05 am
Its just what has and will continue to occur whether folks like it or not.  Even today there are people still campaigning for their sovereignty in amongst all these nations and one of the major difficulties that the global communities face is when you draw a line on a map indicating a border, on each side of that border there are going to be people who are unhappy because their opinion of that border is different to what exists.  Ukraine is a nation forged under the interests of non russians and its a testament to how well propaganda works to see people continually bag Russia for simply trying to look after itself.

Would any other nation in the world act differently if they felt they needed to??  No, they wouldn't.

Oh and when you see a state created somewhere, unless it is strong enough to defend itself if it is of any geopolitical importance expect that one of the neighbors will try swallow it eventually and the only reason to break one off another is to allow one of the "other strong nations" an opportunity to carve up another.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 26, 2022, 08:18:21 am
Oh and watch the rest of the videos about war on a map.  You quickly detect a recurring them about the nations who are the aggressors and where the bulk of fighting occurs.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 26, 2022, 08:46:10 am
Putin is definitely on the wrong side of history.  The world will judge him accordingly.

 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 26, 2022, 10:07:34 am
Putin is definitely on the wrong side of history.  The world will judge him accordingly.

I think that he will be judged a lot sooner and a lot more harshly than he expected.

I just hope that it's before his dirty little war escalates.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 26, 2022, 10:10:33 am
Putin was a pinup student for the KGB and loved the cloak and dagger stuff in East Germany. He speaks perfect German and was in charge of funding and inciting neo Nazi groups and terror organisations like the Baider Meinhoff gang. He has employed a lot of his old buddies from those days who also want the old Soviet ways to return.
I have been to Ukraine and it's one of the breakaway states that was quick to tear down old Russian monuments, mosaics, houses of culture and cut the eternal flame sites.Putin really hates that lack of respect and will want to flatten Ukraine completely even if he can't control the country. He has a lot of support in Russia from the older folk who loved the old Soviet days when they were well fed and had jobs. Very hard to live on the pension in Russia and when I was there you could see lines of old people getting on buses at 6.30am to go and work in community gardens to grow vegetables so they could eat properly. The Gopniks might hate Putin and uni students but many are  blinded by the media and see the "special operation" as part of protecting Russia from the USA and NATO.
While McDonald's, Ikea and other big well known stores have closed over in Russia, many others haven't like Burger King are still open, petrol has gone up but is still cheap compared to here.
No sanctions on Putin's gas supplies to Europe because they don't want to freeze to death and now he wants to be paid in rubles to help fix his money woes.
Going to be a long hard slog in Ukraine and the West will need to give Putin a face saving way out to end this imho..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 26, 2022, 12:46:38 pm
I think that he will be judged a lot sooner and a lot more harshly than he expected.

I just hope that it's before his dirty little war escalates.
His day of reckoning is coming sooner than he thinks. And it will be one of his own and closest that inserts the knife/pill/bullet, he won't even see it coming.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 26, 2022, 01:39:04 pm
Going to be a long hard slog in Ukraine and the West will need to give Putin a face saving way out to end this imho..
The word I have is that Russia is busted ar5e broke @ElwoodBlues1, as the EU and West diminishes the demand for fossil fuels Russia's income stream has evaporated, so it's trying to do a deal with China and China has obliged by purchasing coal, gas and oil from the Soviets and to look like good citizens the Chinese are not yet providing munitions.

But I've a contact who is a military political strategist, they tell me the West knew something was up when they saw fairly large scale munitions doing relatively little damage, relative being a fairly subjective term, missiles and bombs that should flatten a whole building not doing much more damage than an RPG grenade. It's not some humanitarian strategic small scale strike, it's because they cannot afford the explosives so the missiles and bombs have a fraction of the rated payload, everything is being rationed.

Basically they are throwing more cheaper smaller rocks to try and maximise the coverage while minimising the operating cost. The butter is spread very very thin.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 26, 2022, 02:57:54 pm
There were amazing reports in the early stages of the invasion that the Russians were caught out by the traditional tendency of Russian soldiers to make money off the black market. That was exacerbated by Putin keeping his plans to invade to himself. That meant that the soldiers sent to the border with Ukraine thought they were just on manoeuvres. Accordingly, soldiers were happily selling off petrol and communication gear to the locals. Then, bang, the invasion is on and they have a fuel shortage and communication issues! It reminds me of Hair where Treat Williams' character volunteered to take his mate's place at boot camp during the Vietnam War so his mate could see his friends for a going-away party only to find to his horror that he was loaded onto a transport plane and flown to Vietnam before his mate returned. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 26, 2022, 11:29:53 pm
The word I have is that Russia is busted ar5e broke @ElwoodBlues1, as the EU and West diminishes the demand for fossil fuels Russia's income stream has evaporated, so it's trying to do a deal with China and China has obliged by purchasing coal, gas and oil from the Soviets and to look like good citizens the Chinese are not yet providing munitions.

But I've a contact who is a military political strategist, they tell me the West knew something was up when they saw fairly large scale munitions doing relatively little damage, relative being a fairly subjective term, missiles and bombs that should flatten a whole building not doing much more damage than an RPG grenade. It's not some humanitarian strategic small scale strike, it's because they cannot afford the explosives so the missiles and bombs have a fraction of the rated payload, everything is being rationed.

Basically they are throwing more cheaper smaller rocks to try and maximise the coverage while minimising the operating cost. The butter is spread very very thin.

In my experience, you can't reduce the explosive content of missiles/artillery shells without altering the trajectory and, from what I've seen, the munitions are doing exactly what you'd expect to the targets.

My information is that the Russians severely under-estimated the resolve of the Ukranians and their capacity to defend.  The Ukranians opened the floodgates on several dams and the inundated land makes it extremely difficult for the invading troops to manoeuvre.  That all means a logistics nightmare for the Russians and that's adding to an already low morale among the troops, most of whom are simply cannon fodder and not highly-trained special forces.

On top of that, NATO and EU are providing sophisticated anti-aircraft and anti-armour munitions that are more than capable of defeating anything the Russians can field. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on March 27, 2022, 09:09:03 pm
Russia could wipe Ukraine off of the map if they wanted to.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 27, 2022, 09:14:28 pm
In my experience, you can't reduce the explosive content of missiles/artillery shells without altering the trajectory and, from what I've seen, the munitions are doing exactly what you'd expect to the targets.
I'm not sure of the details of how this happens, whether he means guided or also ballistic munitions.

I suppose they could replace mass with ballast.

Pure speculation on my part, I wonder about the reports broke Russia military are selling equipment and resources on the black market, would they could they actually replace explosives with ballast, earn some money in the process and have a clearer conscience?

As far as wars go this one is truly awful and bizarre, so much is wrong while not being quite right.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 27, 2022, 10:49:00 pm
Russia could wipe Ukraine off of the map if they wanted to.

Russia could wipe most of the world off the map if they wanted to.  However, even Putin is aware that Russia would be obliterated in return.

Ukraine was a major player in the manufacture of sophisticated military hardware in the days of the Soviet Union.  Those manufacturing facilities have been under Ukranian control for decades and continue to produce sophisticated weapons.  For example, the T-64 tank manufactured in Ukraine is a product of the 1960s but, with modernisation programs, is superior to the T-72, T-80 and T-90 tanks used by the Russians.

Ukraine's response is restrained because they know that Putin could deploy NBC weapons.  Russia's offensive is restrained because they know that NATO could spoil their party.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 28, 2022, 12:02:59 am
Meanwhile China have bought off the Solomon islands and now have a security agreement which is a nice cover for a military presence and refuelling depot for their shipping and all close to our backyard.
Bad form from the Solly govt but after cutting ties with Taiwan a few years back hardly surprising they have a new best buddy in the expansionist Chinese.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 28, 2022, 07:10:56 am
Meanwhile China have bought off the Solomon islands and now have a security agreement which is a nice cover for a military presence and refuelling depot for their shipping and all close to our backyard.
Bad form from the Solly govt but after cutting ties with Taiwan a few years back hardly surprising they have a new best buddy in the expansionist Chinese.

He'll need a place to hide. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on March 28, 2022, 08:57:46 am
Russia could wipe Ukraine off of the map if they wanted to.

Yep, and then Nato/US would wipe Russia off the map, then China and Nth Korea would kill millions (or more) with their nuclear and biological strikes on Europe and the US. And the northern hemisphere becomes uninhabitable. Such a smart critter, the human.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 28, 2022, 09:23:41 am
Yep, and then Nato/US would wipe Russia off the map, then China and Nth Korea would kill millions (or more) with their nuclear and biological strikes on Europe and the US. And the northern hemisphere becomes uninhabitable. Such a smart critter, the human.
China would direct a few extra our way as well and there would be fallout in the southern hemisphere.
Putin is a lunatic who would push the button if he had no way out. That's where smart politicians have to find a face saving way to give him a way out which might mean giving him the Donbass region and making new boundaries with a Nth Korea/Sth Korea look to it with NATO troops on the Ukraine side.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on March 28, 2022, 09:31:52 am
Yep, and then Nato/US would wipe Russia off the map, then China and Nth Korea would kill millions (or more) with their nuclear and biological strikes on Europe and the US. And the northern hemisphere becomes uninhabitable. Such a smart critter, the human.

Not doing too much to help the Ukraine now.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 28, 2022, 09:44:38 am
Meanwhile China have bought off the Solomon islands and now have a security agreement which is a nice cover for a military presence and refuelling depot for their shipping and all close to our backyard.
Bad form from the Solly govt but after cutting ties with Taiwan a few years back hardly surprising they have a new best buddy in the expansionist Chinese.
Morrison is great at sound bites about China but isn't so good at diplomacy and strategy. Did he see the Solomon Islands fiasco coming, and if so did he do anything to head it off? Allowing the Chinese a permanent air carrier positioned on Australia's doorstep doesn't seem to be a great strategic development.

And if he's so concerned about the Chinese threat, why didn't he stop the lease of the Darwin Port to the Chinese? Don't give me the line that the Federal Govt didn't have any role in that deal; if he'd wanted to stop it, he could have made sure it was declared against the national interest or used the Fed Govt's power over a territory to bring it to heel. It seems he's only interested in playing the tough guy by lobbing insults or doing a deal for nuclear submarines in 2038.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 28, 2022, 10:39:45 am
Did he see the Solomon Islands fiasco coming, and if so did he do anything to head it off?
- The world had noted this coming for a long time, but they were powerless to do anything about it, as it is all about corruption. Western governments get locked up for acting like China, they have no way to compete because the situation has no counter in Western law, and the UN gives all an equal vote with the big economies the power of veto. The situation is setup for abuse by those who are morally defunct.

And if he's so concerned about the Chinese threat, why didn't he stop the lease of the Darwin Port to the Chinese?
- This is certainly a contradiction, they want the money but they wish to retain the perception of sovereignty, does it really exist? The situation has so many parallels to the way the EU works, it seems to be a common failing of western bureaucracy, like an episode of Yes Minister! I suppose you could read it as China funding the procurement of nuclear subs.

Don't give me the line that the Federal Govt didn't have any role in that deal; if he'd wanted to stop it, he could have made sure it was declared against the national interest or used the Fed Govt's power over a territory to bring it to heel. It seems he's only interested in playing the tough guy by lobbing insults or doing a deal for nuclear submarines in 2038.
- The insults are for the general public, the nuclear subs are because the UK and USA have basically stated unless we carry our share of regional policing we cannot expect help. Knowledge is power, and the most influential and powerful aspect of a nuclear submarine is it's ability to sit off the coast of a foreign entity and gather information in virtually complete anonymity.

Personally, I think the subs were the right thing to do, especially now we see what is going on in Ukraine. Australia could have asked the French for a nuclear option but the confidence they would support Australia rather than remain neutral or even become sympathetic to China is pretty low, more than once in recent years France has chosen the East over the West, so we went for the option that brought with it a strengthening of our traditional ally. Of course historically this has always been the game the French play, they walk the fence line waiting to identify the victor before stepping one way or the other.

The idea that it puts us at greater risk is bit absurd, China has no regard for convention and it will roll across allies and the defenceless when it suits it to do so. If you are weak and defenceless China will step on you like a child steps on an ant, old world China has very little humanity, it likes to pick on weaker opponents so it runs an operation like Belt and Road.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 28, 2022, 11:03:33 am
The "Port of Darwin" deal was and is an absolute disgrace.  Morrison wears the blame for that.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 28, 2022, 11:29:48 am
Quote
The Solomon Islands Opposition Leader claims he warned Australian officials last year that China was negotiating a military pact which could see a base established on the strategically located Pacific nation.
Quote
Former Army intelligence officer and University of New South Wales Professor, Clinton Fernandes, says China is making strong headway in Papua New Guinea just like it has in Solomon Islands.

"The next item on the agenda is the Daru Island area off Papua New Guinea which is going to have a Chinese presence and before too long a pro-China party will win the national elections in Papua New Guinea," he said.

Professor Fernandes said the same factors are in play in Papua New Guinea as in Solomon Islands, where Australian foreign aid is seen as not effective in countering China.

"We also interfere in their politics — when the Solomon Islands wanted to build an undersea internet cable between themselves and Sydney — we insisted which company would get that contract," he said.

"The current Prime Minister of Solomon Islands hasn't forgotten that episode and the same dynamic is in play in Papua New Guinea, when a large part of the aid budget actually comes back in salaries to foreign consultants".
Solomon Islands politician 'extremely disappointed' Australia ignored warnings of China military deal, abc.net.au (http://Solomon Islands politician 'extremely disappointed' Australia ignored warnings of China military deal, abc.net.au)

The problem is that Australia has been happy to bully the small island states in our neighbourhood in the same way that China bullies us. Let's not forget the way they pleaded with Australia for action on climate change as rising sea levels threatened their very existence, with one leader brought to tears over it. You'd think Morrison could have at least shown a bit of sympathy for their plight. It's not hard to see why our neighbours might think the bully of their bully is their friend.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 28, 2022, 11:54:50 am
Solomon Islands politician 'extremely disappointed' Australia ignored warnings of China military deal, abc.net.au (http://Solomon Islands politician 'extremely disappointed' Australia ignored warnings of China military deal, abc.net.au)
Let's not forget the way they pleaded with Australia for action on climate change as rising sea levels threatened their very existence, with one leader brought to tears over it.

Australia 1.3% of the annual world's emissions ... all replaced by China in a mere 16 days.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on March 28, 2022, 12:15:16 pm
Australia 1.3% of the annual world's emissions ... all replaced by China in a mere 16 days.



I think it's more the principle and intention of support rather than actual %s or stats.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 28, 2022, 12:23:32 pm
If you include Australia's export of fossil fuels (coal etc) then Australia's contribution to emissions is 5%. And the Australian Govt has been one of the leaders of attempts to undermine global action on climate change.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on March 28, 2022, 01:03:00 pm
If you include Australia's export of fossil fuels (coal etc) then Australia's contribution to emissions is 5%. And the Australian Govt has been one of the leaders of attempts to undermine global action on climate change.

Yep but isn't it almost ironic that this govts present ad campaign saturation is all about how they are supporting 'green power' to meet our 2050 zero emissions and already we're 'supposedly' 20% down over the past few years. Amazing how when an election is looming that the present Govt is doing their utmost to secure a 'green' vote whilst ideologically and philosophically opposed to 'green' energy and enmeshed with a belief of 'no such thing as climate change' or that it is being exaggerated. Real forked tongue stuff.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 28, 2022, 01:15:38 pm
China love our better quality coal and we love selling it to them and Europe are reliant on Russia for natural gas and wont apply sanctions in that area. Its a strange world of contradictions we live in.....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 28, 2022, 01:25:17 pm
I won't write too much here we have an energy thread.

I understand a large chunk of Australia's export is black coal used for coking not energy, and even when we transition to clean energy that won't change as the demand for coking coal as steel production will not diminish even though steel mills move to greener energy, the coking coal is part of a chemical process to make steel not part of the energy production.

Not sure we export much brown coal, it's is mostly used domestically for energy production.

The coal everybody wants to trade is the black stuff, it sells at a far higher price, so much so there is a lot of R&D going into techniques to turn brown to black. The higher the black coal quality the better the alloys you can make.

Interestingly Japan mostly buys black coal for it's high tech energy production, black coal burns cleaner so it's easier to deal with the waste, Japan's technologies eliminate about 80% of the waste emissions. Protestors will still rally against this but as a short term transitional solution that technology is as good as immediately shutting 80% of your coal fired power plants, actually for Australia it would be equivalent to shutting even more than 80% because the brown coal we burn for energy is not as clean. The only long term viable solution is still nuclear be it fission or fusion, several countries that historically closed nuclear are now reversing the decision, they have become woke to the lobbyist tactics.

Solar, wind and other renewable energy lobbyists tend to just lump coal(pun intended) all in the same basket.

PS; When Australia stops selling black coal or supply is limited, China and India do their best to get it from other sources like Borneo and the Amazon Basin! The lobbyists paint us as vandals, but the truth is far more complicated.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 28, 2022, 01:34:43 pm
Nuclear.  'Cos wind and solar won't ever do it. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 28, 2022, 01:53:51 pm
The best example of the addiction the Morrison Govt has to coal is in the production of hydrogen as a green fuel. This will allow truckers to use a fuel that can be distributed like diesel but burns without emissions.

There are broadly 2 ways of producing hydrogen: using electricity or coal-fired power to provide the energy to split the hydrogen from the oxygen in water. The former can be green if the electricity is produced from solar or other green power but coal is decidedly dirty.

Australian scientists have made a huge leap forward in the efficiency of electrolysers: they've produced 95% efficiency compared to 75% previously: Australian researchers claim ‘giant leap’ in technology to produce affordable renewable hydrogen, The Guardian. (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/mar/16/australian-researchers-claim-giant-leap-in-technology-to-produce-affordable-renewable-hydrogen) Green hydrogen is therefore on track to be competitive with coal-fired hydrogen production by 2025 with costs of under $2 per kilo.

But there's no surprise that the Morrison Govt sees coal-fired hydrogen production as its gift to addressing climate change even though it's dependent on "clean coal" solutions that may be pie in the sky: Coal-based liquid hydrogen pivotal for green energy? The experts doubt it, The Guardian. (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jan/27/coal-based-liquid-hydrogen-pivotal-for-green-energy-the-experts-doubt-it)
Quote
A world-first shipment of liquid hydrogen from Australia was declared momentous – a pivotal moment as the world clambers for clean liquid fuels to bring global greenhouse gas emissions to zero.

Prime minister Scott Morrison said the consignment – loaded on to a purpose-built Japanese ship at the Port of Hastings in Victoria – marked the beginning of a new clean energy export industry for Australia.

Despite the celebratory fanfare and two government ministers at the port for a photo-op, the reality is something different.
Experts say the climate credentials of the technology being used to produce the hydrogen – using brown coal – are highly questionable.

“The project’s current configuration is not clean. In fact, it is incredibly dirty,” said Kobad Bhavnagri, head of industrial decarbonisation at Bloomberg NEF.

Quote
To bring emissions down, HESC says a commercial operation would capture CO2 released during one of the stages of production (the gasification phase carried out in the Latrobe Valley) and then use the Victorian government’s CarbonNet project to store the CO2.

But the CarbonNet project – which is targeting potential geological formations off the Victorian coast – doesn’t yet exist and, if it does go ahead, the Victorian government says it won’t start operating until the end of this decade.

All of this raises the prospect of coal-based hydrogen – which the Morrison government is happy to describe as “clean” – hitting a global market at a time when some analysts believe it will be already priced out by zero-emissions hydrogen derived from renewable energy.

Bhavnagri told Temperature Check he doubts using coal to make hydrogen could have any commercial success.

He said assuming the project could capture and store a significant amount of CO2, the carbon footprint of the hydrogen would still be higher than producing hydrogen from gas with CCS and “much higher than producing it from renewables”.

“If it’s more complex and more costly and more polluting than making hydrogen from renewables, why would you do it?”

If you want to make money, just float a proposal to the Morrison Govt that includes the words "clean coal". Then you just have to make sure you won't be crushed under all of the money that the Govt will give you so it can burnish its climate credentials.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 28, 2022, 02:08:28 pm
I won't write too much here we have an energy thread.

I understand a large chunk of Australia's export is black coal used for coking not energy, and even when we transition to clean energy that won't change as the demand for coking coal as steel production will not diminish even though steel mills move to greener energy, the coking coal is part of a chemical process to make steel not part of the energy production.

Not sure we export much brown coal, it's is mostly used domestically for energy production.

The coal everybody wants to trade is the black stuff, it sells at a far higher price, so much so there is a lot of R&D going into techniques to turn brown to black. The higher the black coal quality the better the alloys you can make.

Interestingly Japan mostly buys black coal for it's high tech energy production, black coal burns cleaner so it's easier to deal with the waste, Japan's technologies eliminate about 80% of the waste emissions. Protestors will still rally against this but as a short term transitional solution that technology is as good as immediately shutting 80% of your coal fired power plants, actually for Australia it would be equivalent to shutting even more than 80% because the brown coal we burn for energy is not as clean. The only long term viable solution is still nuclear be it fission or fusion, several countries that historically closed nuclear are now reversing the decision, they have become woke to the lobbyist tactics.

Solar, wind and other renewable energy lobbyists tend to just lump coal(pun intended) all in the same basket.

PS; When Australia stops selling black coal or supply is limited, China and India do their best to get it from other sources like Borneo and the Amazon Basin! The lobbyists paint us as vandals, but the truth is far more complicated.


China (Mainland) have 1,100 coal fired power plants and are building another 1.1 billion dollar plant, around 75% of the worlds total, thats a lot of coal......Japs are building another 22 power stations running on Aussie coal.
Ukraine have been buying their gas from Poland, Romania and couple of other countries thus cutting dependence on Russia and were about to do isolation testing in an attempt to breakaway from the Russian electricity grid but Putin timed his invasion for the day they were going to experiment by cutting the Russian link. Ukraine want to hook up with Western Europe and become part of that grid and dump the Ruskies and Belarusian distibution networks which they are tied to at the moment.
Vlad wasnt having Ukraine cut all power ties and while I know electrical stability will be an issue if Ukraine join the other EU grid, the US and other countries were going to help them achieve their goal.
For all Putins political rhetoric about saving Russians living in Ukraine from the mythical Nazi Zelensky regime it all gets back to money and big business and the leverage Russia has on many countries in terms of energy supply.
No surprise he wants to be paid in Ruble's now which means other countries have to buy them so he is trying to counter the effect sanctions have had and how much the ruble has plummeted in value.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 28, 2022, 02:17:31 pm
When the rouble has plunged over 50% since the invasion, no wonder he's losing friends.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on March 28, 2022, 02:21:42 pm
China love our better quality coal and we love selling it to them and Europe are reliant on Russia for natural gas and wont apply sanctions in that area. Its a strange world of contradictions we live in.....

Much like the critters than inhabit it (planet Earth)!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 28, 2022, 04:03:26 pm
Green hydrogen is therefore on track to be competitive with coal-fired hydrogen production by 2025 with costs of under $2 per kilo.
All the expert commentators seem to wilfully ignore the R&D going at the moment to convert coal and other fossil fuels by catalysis to liquified hydrogen, so they make the argument based on conventional electrolysis.

But these experts, if they are experts and not renewable lobbyists, also know the R&D going on at Newcastle Uni related to catalytic conversion of liquified brown coal to clean hydrogen via a catalysis reactor that is designed to run off solar thermal. Basically it's getting to the point of upscaled trials. This by the way is not new, it's been in R&D since the early 2000s.

It's also a process that like a desalination plant is a very serious option for complimentary installation with nuclear. Nuclear / Hydrogen Refinery or Nuclear / Desalination Plant, this type of configuration is the preferred option for nuclear to operate at peak efficiency.

Know a state in a drought riddled country with a expensive to operate desalination plant or a state with an aluminium refinery that has had operations derailed due to high energy costs, either needing cheap base load power to be viable?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 28, 2022, 06:04:05 pm
Yet that isn't the plan for hydrogen generation from coal. Coal is burnt and the emissions are to be "captured". If you're an advocate for catalytic conversion of brown coal without CO2 emissions, then you should be a fervent critic of the current plan for hydrogen generation through burning coal.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 28, 2022, 07:19:59 pm
When the rouble has plunged over 50% since the invasion, no wonder he's losing friends.

I imagine a lot of Russian interests are in Cryptocurrency.

Before you think that the Ruble falling is a problem, have a think about what happens when you hold a commodity that doesnt sink with the price of it.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 28, 2022, 09:27:16 pm
Russian stock market has dropped around 30%, it's mainly foreigners who own most of the stocks and they are not allowed to sell at this stage.Inflation is tipped to run at about 20%. Putin has about 700 billion tied up overseas he can't access it.
The Russian central bank won't recognize Crypto and even though Russians own 214  billion in Crypto according to Forbes converting it into rubles would be difficult with sanctions.
Unless China provide the means to launder money or have a change of heart on their attitudes to Crypto I don't see Russia having the means to prevent an economic downturn  in all areas.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 29, 2022, 12:11:22 am
Russian stock market has dropped around 30%, it's mainly foreigners who own most of the stocks and they are not allowed to sell at this stage.Inflation is tipped to run at about 20%. Putin has about 700 billion tied up overseas he can't access it.
The Russian central bank won't recognize Crypto and even though Russians own 214  billion in Crypto according to Forbes converting it into rubles would be difficult with sanctions.
Unless China provide the means to launder money or have a change of heart on their attitudes to Crypto I don't see Russia having the means to prevent an economic downturn  in all areas.

Yep, Putin really underestimated the West's response to his dirty little war and the impact that it would have on Russia's economy and the fortunes of the oligarchs. 

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 29, 2022, 07:06:39 am
Yet that isn't the plan for hydrogen generation from coal. Coal is burnt and the emissions are to be "captured". If you're an advocate for catalytic conversion of brown coal without CO2 emissions, then you should be a fervent critic of the current plan for hydrogen generation through burning coal.
None of the current plans are forever plans, it's very deceptive to discuss them in a permanent solution context, because nearly all the current plans are transitional.

Carbon sequestration is also a transitional plan, nobody with any credibility makes the claim it's forever, including amongst it's critics.

btw., I don't see the same criticisms of solar PV and wind power, it is quite hypocritical, because both use rare earth elements in abundance which are diminishing in availability and come from extremely destructive mining practices, and both are built of dirty manufacturing industries. The "clean solar PV" that is held up as the gold standard only exists in the lab at the moment, it's not related to the panels you currently put on a roof!

Unfortunately, this whole debate is mired in the politics of money, and all sides are equally guilty of slander and deception. The renewable sector is not as green as it paints itself to be, and the fossil fuel sector is not as committed to active reform as it should be, both tell lies to get more of the available subsidies.

And finally, if you are worried about cleaning and greening the planet, do not investigate the battery industry! :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 29, 2022, 08:42:44 am
But 1 thing we can agree on is that the renewable sector is much more likely to reduce emissions than the fossil fuel sector. I should say everyone save for the Morrison Govt as it's continually trying to find ways to take money earmarked for renewables and give it to the fossil fuel sector:  Government plan to let renewable agency fund fossil fuels blocked after Liberal-led committee’s motion, The Guardian. (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/mar/28/morrison-plan-to-allow-renewable-agency-to-fund-fossil-fuels-blocked-by-liberal-led-committee)

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on March 29, 2022, 09:03:48 am
Yep, Putin really underestimated the West's response to his dirty little war and the impact that it would have on Russia's economy and the fortunes of the oligarchs. 



Absolutely.

So far he's succeeded in elevating Zelenskyy's status globally, turned global (negative) attention on himself and his buddies with considerable impact on their personal financial fortunes, created unnecessary hardship on his citizenry, created a conflict where it's not Russia vs Ukraine but rather more personality based - Putin & Oligarchs vs the Ukraine - this would gall him, underestimated an opponent (a cardinal sin in military strategy)...and so on.

Those who understand the psychology of Putin/Russians understand that it is somewhat different to the 'West'. As extraordinary as it may seem, he has better than 75% support from his (ill-informed) population. At this stage there are only two options for Putin... claim a win with what he has 'achieved' thus far and back off or (like any self-respecting Dictator) escalate things to chemical/nuclear exchanges. Anyone who thinks Putin wouldn't opt for nuclear strikes as it would be a suicide also, doesn't understand his thinking or personality(?) type. Martyrdom would not be beyond him, even with the cost to his and other nations being horrendous (which wouldn't bother him for a nano second, he simply cannot be seen to lose).
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 29, 2022, 09:18:26 am
Absolutely.

So far he's succeeded in elevating Zelenskyy's status globally, turned global (negative) attention on himself and his buddies with considerable impact on their personal financial fortunes (not Russians in general), created unnecessary hardship on his citizenry, underestimated an opponent (a cardinal sin in military strategy)...and so on.

Those who understand the psychology of Putin/Russians understand that it is somewhat different to the 'West'. As extraordinary as it may seem, he has better than 75% support from his population. At this stage there are only two options for Putin... claim a win with what he has 'achieved' thus far and back off or (like any self-respecting Dictator) escalate things to chemical/nuclear exchanges. Anyone who thinks Putin wouldn't opt for nuclear strikes as it would be a suicide also, doesn't understand his thinking or personality(?) type. Martyrdom would not be beyond him, even with the cost to his and other nations being horrendous (which wouldn't bother him for a nano second, he simply cannot be seen to lose).
Yep Ukraine will be his Stalingrad and like I said previously you have to offer him a way out that saves face for him so he isn't backed into a corner and becomes desperate enough to push the button on his nukes. He does want to make his mark on history and be seen as a winner like Stalin etc and that makes him dangerous to the world. Bit of crap land in the Donbass and Ukraine declaring itself neutral might end it and save many lives.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 29, 2022, 09:48:53 am
Yep, Putin really underestimated the West's response to his dirty little war and the impact that it would have on Russia's economy and the fortunes of the oligarchs.
I think the EU have always wanted to wean themselves of fossil fuel dependencies, but they haven't had the political willpower to do so given the pain it causes the general public.

But Putin gave them the excuse to push harder into sustainable technologies and sources, with the immediate pain justified under the measures needed to curtail a global tyrant. I'm sure there are some within the EU that are hoping for China to cross the line as well so that copious amount of deleterious trade can be curtailed as well.

So much of this is again more dependant on politics rather than the better technical solutions. This is the irony of humanity, no solution no matter how suited to the problem can possibly succeed without the acceptance of people.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 29, 2022, 10:12:54 am
The Ukranian rebuild alone will take many years and cost billions; with or without Russia's help.  Assuming of course some form of "peace" agreement is agreed to.   I don't see that happening for a long time.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 29, 2022, 10:23:46 am
The Ukranian rebuild alone will take many years and cost billions; with or without Russia's help.  Assuming of course some form of "peace" agreement is agreed to.  I don't see that happening for a long time.
After such an event it's common for the rebuilt economy to improve significantly, rapidly modernise in circumstances that would previously been impossible, and out perform it's past.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 29, 2022, 10:43:03 am
Color me a little cynical.  Power restoration?  European presence in their droves from neighboring countries to help?

Far from easy knowing russia
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Macca37 on March 29, 2022, 12:28:53 pm
After such an event it's common for the rebuilt economy to improve significantly, rapidly modernise in circumstances that would previously been impossible, and out perform it's past.

But where will the money come from to rebuild Ukraine's economy?  In any peace deal Russia will insist on iron clad guarantees that Ukraine will never join NATO,  so the future for Ukraine seems to be that it will still be at the mercy of Russia.

With that scenario, I cannot see money from the West being invested in a rebuild.  Also, Russia seems intent on destroying Ukraine's manufacturing industries and plunging the country back to an agrarian society before holding meaningful peace talks.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 29, 2022, 01:17:41 pm
But where will the money come from to rebuild Ukraine's economy?  In any peace deal Russia will insist on iron clad guarantees that Ukraine will never join NATO,  so the future for Ukraine seems to be that it will still be at the mercy of Russia.

With that scenario, I cannot see money from the West being invested in a rebuild.  Also, Russia seems intent on destroying Ukraine's manufacturing industries and plunging the country back to an agrarian society before holding meaningful peace talks.
What peace deal, do you really see it heading that way, and if it does what does "Peace Deal" actually mean?

Personally, I think this is now going to be long and protracted, it's really what makes sense for Ukraine and for those opposed to Putin. Financially Ukraine will get international support and that will for Russia will really hurt. Russia was already suffering in that it has now struggled for many years now to keep up with foreign competitive technologies, it's basically relying on low labour costs. I've a mate form the UK who went to the GP there just after the Olympics, and he tells me away from the Olympic venue the visit was like going back to 1960s London.

When any deal is done the sanctions will not be instantly lifted, trust will need to be restored before that happens.

Overall I have no idea, I cannot trust what I read, it's all politically coloured in some way, so that makes it very hard for the average external observer to get a handle on the situation. In fact, based on what we see we can barely recognise how Ukraine still exists, but it does. Is that a tell, is there more to this that we do not read or see in mainstream reports? I think it does tell us something, I think there is far more to the stalled progress of the Russian military than is exposed by international media.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 29, 2022, 02:18:53 pm
If anything, it's exposed the soft underbelly of the Russian military.  Humiliated 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 29, 2022, 02:44:30 pm
If anything, it's exposed the soft underbelly of the Russian military.  Humiliated
I've an Ex. Army mate who states that defeating / stalling the Russian army is as easy as leaving crates of spirits besides the road, the sad thing is he is only half-joking.

I'm not sure that giving a nuclear capable fighting force lots of free alcohol makes sense! :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 29, 2022, 03:06:47 pm
Putin has sacrificed his conscripts and kept his best troops away from the street fighting etc.
He has his own version of the infamous SS named the Rosgvardiya which are his elite bodyguards as well as his elite paratroops and Spetsnaz groups including their version of the navy seals who the US green berets rate highly.
Conscripts with 1980's equipment and rations dated 2002 are just the 1st wave.
You know Putin is worried if he commits his best troops and air force with their sophisticated fighter jets.
Those old MIGs that Zelensky wants from Poland won't last 5 mins.
It's just a question of time before Putin has to decide if he wants to escalate this war and go harder or back off and keep what territory he values.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on March 29, 2022, 03:59:49 pm
If what I have read is right, and who knows,  Putin's current prime focus is to neutralize the main Ukrainian army in the East by cutting off its ammo, food and fuel supplies. Once that has been done the Russians would be in a very strong negotiating position.  Not sure how this may actually play out though.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on March 29, 2022, 07:33:23 pm
If what I have read is right, and who knows,  Putin's current prime focus is to neutralize the main Ukrainian army in the East by cutting off its ammo, food and fuel supplies. Once that has been done the Russians would be in a very strong negotiating position.  Not sure how this may actually play out though.

It's another Vietnam, Afghanistan etc., in the making. Although the Ruskies might take east Ukraine, the well funded and well supported (Ukraine) 'underground' will be constantly fighting against any occupation. Another thing the Russian 'intelligence' may not have figured on. This very spirited country, even if occupied will continue to fight, resist and provide an on-going headache for Russia and constant drain on their military resources/personnel... then the issue of occupation morale will occur.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 29, 2022, 07:58:19 pm
.. then the issue of occupation morale will occur.
@Baggers‍  It's got that feel about it, not quite right not that any war is, but it's got a never ending feel.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 30, 2022, 02:38:19 pm
This is the kind of stuff that makes me piss myself laughing:

From the Carlton FB page
Three Game Changers have been selected in the initial 40-person AFL Women’s All-Australian squad. 🤩
Well deserved.

Are they taking the piss or what?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 30, 2022, 05:17:32 pm
This is the kind of stuff that makes me piss myself laughing:

From the Carlton FB page
Three Game Changers have been selected in the initial 40-person AFL Women’s All-Australian squad. 🤩
Well deserved.

Are they taking the piss or what?

Yes, it should have been "the initial 40-person AFL non-men’s All-Australian squad."   ::)

It would be interesting to hear Darcy's take on being non-binary in a women's competition.  So much to learn!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 31, 2022, 11:04:15 am
Interesting:  A cut-and-paste attack on electric vehicle batteries and renewables is spanning the globe. But is it right? The Guardian. (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/mar/31/a-cut-and-paste-attack-on-electric-vehicle-batteries-and-renewables-is-spanning-the-globe-but-is-it-right)

Quote
Across social media, internet forums and some climate science denier blogs, there has been furious cutting-and-pasting of chunks of common text attacking the environmental credentials of electric vehicles, solar panels and wind turbines.

About 200 tonnes of the “Earth’s crust” needs to be mined for each electric vehicle battery, and 11 tonnes of brine are needed just for the lithium, claims the text, which also says solar panels and wind turbine blades can’t be recycled.

Some claims are made definitively and without context, and don’t try to compare electric vehicle batteries to the fossil fuelled cars they are replacing. Solar panels can be recycled and fully recyclable turbine blades are now being produced.

The former resources minister and Queensland senator Matt Canavan was another to share some of the text that sat above a picture of a hollowed-out landscape. It took a few seconds to discover the scary but irrelevant image was of a diamond mine in Canada.

On Facebook, some posts using extracts are being marked with a label saying “Missing context. Independent fact-checkers say this information could mislead people.”

One fact check site categorises one post as a “scare tactic” containing only partial truths.

An Australian climate “sceptics” group posted a version of the essay the extracts come from earlier this year.

Prof Peter Newman, a sustainability expert at Curtin University and a senior author of an upcoming UN climate assessment on mitigation, said the numbers related to the resources needed to produce electric vehicle batteries were “nonsense” because they referred to the early days of lithium battery development.

Newman told Temperature Check the claims around brine and lithium were “based on the fears associated with brine extraction in the Andes’s countries, especially Chile, and human slavery in the Democratic Republic of the Congo over Cobalt.”

But he said lithium extraction was moving away from brine to a mineral called spodumene, with Western Australia now its biggest producer. That mining, Newman said, was “ethical and sustainable.”

The WA government says the state now produces 49% of the world’s lithium – meaning that at least half of the world’s supply comes without processing salty brine in places like Chile.

Commenting more generally, Newman said “rumours about critical minerals” had been spreading for too long.

“Their time is up. The world is replacing oil with sunshine made possible because of the dramatically successful Lithium Ion battery.

“Compare [this] with the numbers on air pollution deaths at 10,000 a day, the wars created over oil and the climate change impacts.”

But what are the origins of the text extracts?

Versions have appeared on Facebook and LinkedIn, many crediting the work to a different writer – including the version promoted by Canavan.

But it appears those versions were taken from an essay written last November by a US-based writer.

Temperature Check asked the writer where he had sourced his facts. He said he “tried to find at least two credible sources for each of the things I claim” and said “all of the statements are readily available on the internet.”

His work was “designed to be fun to read and to get people thinking”, he said.

It’s worth saying here that most people appreciate any new purchase – whether that’s a fossil-fuelled car or an e-bike – has an environmental cost and that raw materials have to be mined.

But electric cars are not permanently tied to fossil fuel production and the associated greenhouse gas emissions in the same way that internal combustion engines are; Australia’s motor vehicles burn 33bn litres of fuel every year.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 31, 2022, 01:00:02 pm
Interesting:  A cut-and-paste attack on electric vehicle batteries and renewables is spanning the globe. But is it right? The Guardian. (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/mar/31/a-cut-and-paste-attack-on-electric-vehicle-batteries-and-renewables-is-spanning-the-globe-but-is-it-right)
Actually, I think the battery situation is much worse than even the message tries to portray.

You can look into the longevity of Lithium Ion batteries and solar cells and find out what happens to them at the end of life and work this out for yourself. Also, for your peace of mind investigate the Lithium Ion battery MTBF, and note this MTBF accumulates just from a battery existing in time and space and has nothing to do with operation or duty cycle.

A car battery is made up of thousands of individual cells, how many have to fail (MTBF considered) before the battery performance is reduced or shuts down due to risk of overload?

Solar PV; In Victoria there are now warehouses overflowing with unrecycled redundant solar panels that have been replaced or removed from roofing due to problems well before the claimed design life is reached. The companies that sold them are long gone, having cashed in on the subsidies and departed.

Batteries in cars are fundamentally no different to the batteries in your phone, laptop or power tools, how many of them still hold a full usable charge a decade later. What do you do when the battery you installed no longer holds enough charge to meet the demand, replace it, what happens to the old ones, will you have a garage full of old car batteries like you probably have a drawer full of old device batteries?

It's why up in Qld and NT where conditions suit the government is now preferentially sponsoring Green Hydrogen for small scale power generation(Up to 3000 homes) ahead of Solar PV Battery, in a bid to replace Diesel power generation which is ubiquitous in the top end. This will be coupled with Hydrogen powered vehicle subsidies, to give the residents the very same usability as the current Diesel Power / Transport combination. Unfortunately, at this stage it still does not address the issue of Solar PV longevity, which ironically is even worse in areas that deliver peak performance.

I'm afraid I'm very cynical, I expect the Solar PV / Battery industry to go full Nicotine in response to the risk that their subsidies might be cut.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 31, 2022, 02:46:39 pm
Given you're a fan of nuclear power which creates waste that's dangerously radioactive for 10,000 years, it's interesting you see discarded Li-ion batteries & solar panels as the real boogeymen.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 31, 2022, 06:37:34 pm
Given you're a fan of nuclear power which creates waste that's dangerously radioactive for 10,000 years, it's interesting you see discarded Li-ion batteries & solar panels as the real boogeymen.

I think LP makes a fair point.

Your response is as emotive as the article you quoted.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2018/06/19/stop-letting-your-ridiculous-fears-of-nuclear-waste-kill-the-planet/?sh=6293328b562e

Lets put this in terms that are simpler to understand.

Which technology gives the most bang for buck, in terms of energy produced vs waste and toxicity in the atmosphere?

Nuclear energy waste is evolving too.  They are finding ways to reuse spent fuel, rather than simply store it.

Green waste has a simple issue and it isnt necessarily to do with the production of it.  Mining the materials is the same as it is for nuclear/coal etc.  Thing is, the volumes required to pump out the same amount of energy are way different, and the environmental impact similarly different and much smaller in nuclears favour.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 31, 2022, 06:57:58 pm
Regarding the situation in the Ukraine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxMVcrvtqqs

An entertaining watch.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 31, 2022, 07:30:53 pm
Given you're a fan of nuclear power which creates waste that's dangerously radioactive for 10,000 years, it's interesting you see discarded Li-ion batteries & solar panels as the real boogeymen.
I'm not really a fan, I'm just not in fear of it, in fact most of our modern life is indebted to it. You wouldn't have a mobile, cancer treatments, modern TVs, computers or fire detectors without it.

How do the anti-nuclear brigade explain the already hugely diminished radioactive background levels around Chernobyl or Fugkushima? 10,000 years is really an emotive claim, because even in a natural disaster like a Tsunami it's really just the hot zone that becomes the issue. The half life of most reactive debris has a half-life measured in 10s or dozens of years, and the bulk of it never leaves the immediate vicinity with the radiation diminishing by the inverse square law, so twice as far away 1/4 the danger, 10 times further away 100 times less danger.

The paranoia about nuclear is not much short of the same fear applied to 5G, vaccines or fluoride in your drinking water.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 31, 2022, 07:53:11 pm
Regarding the situation in the Ukraine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxMVcrvtqqs

An entertaining watch.

Him?  Sorry.  Can't stand the guy.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 31, 2022, 08:19:50 pm
I'm not really a fan, I'm just not in fear of it, in fact most of our modern life is indebted to it. You wouldn't have a mobile, cancer treatments, modern TVs, computers or fire detectors without it.
Yep, Madame Curie was a genius. How did she die again?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on March 31, 2022, 08:44:35 pm
Yep, Madame Curie was a genius. How did she die again?
A lack of information.

Same as people now.

Batteries are not sustainable long term. Its a medium term solution.

Pound for pound, Nucleur power (and the waste created) absolutely demolishes anything else in terms of output vs waste.

Handled appropriately, it will do the world of good.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 31, 2022, 09:23:58 pm
Or maybe you could say Mme Curie unfortunately was at the cutting edge of new rather than mature technology. Nuclear power is now very mature whereas renewables and battery technologies will improve rapidly. Confining the comparison of nuclear and fossil fuel energy generation to only existing renewables & battery technology is misleading.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 31, 2022, 09:36:40 pm
... whereas renewables and battery technologies will improve rapidly.

Guessing at best
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 31, 2022, 09:43:22 pm
Quote
If progress has been steady all this time, there’s obviously more on the way (stay tuned on that). First, there will be more in the incremental vein, as we have yet to reach the theoretical limits of lithium-ion. For example, when Tesla laid out its plans last year, there were many little things that added up to a hoped-for increase of around 50 percent in vehicle range and decrease of around 50 percent in per-kilowatt-hour cost. That came from cathode material tweaks, a high-silicon-content anode, a larger cylindrical cell design, a redesigned battery pack, and new manufacturing methods. Who knows how long it will take for all this to materialize, though Elon Musk claimed it would only be around three years.

Beyond the incremental, less predictable battery revolutions are also coming to placate the impatient. (Just don’t expect flying cars to be close behind.) The race to develop solid-state batteries that ditch liquid electrolytes—and perhaps also the bulk of the anode—seems to be heating up. That could bring sudden improvements in safety, longevity, or energy density.

Researchers have also long been chasing lithium-air batteries that could realize a huge jump in energy density. And beyond lithium, there are other entirely different chemistries in development out there. At some point, one of them should click for one application or another.

Lithium-ion or not, an explosion of grid-scale battery installations is coming as prices continue to fall. The nascent art of lithium-ion battery recycling is also sure to mature and expand, improving the sustainability of these batteries by recovering and resetting their chemical building blocks.

Adopt cold-fusion-like skepticism of any of these future-looking statements as you please, but today’s batteries aren’t those of 20 or even 10 years ago. The same thing is bound to be true in another 10 years—even if that progress doesn’t come in a single, giant leap with global fanfare.

Eternally five years away? No, batteries are improving under your nose, ArsTechnica (https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/05/eternally-five-years-away-no-batteries-are-improving-under-your-nose/)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 31, 2022, 09:53:50 pm
Batteries still have a very real issue. They need to be charged. 

Oh by the way, they've found a way to make nuclear waste into batteries.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 31, 2022, 09:56:12 pm
And it only took them 70 years to do it. Imagine how much better (and how recyclable) non-nuclear batteries will be in the year 2060 ...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on March 31, 2022, 10:01:42 pm
I'm pretty sure that if it came to the crunch we'd be pretty active in defence.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/deeply-concerning-young-australians-wouldnt-fight-for-their-country-in-ukraine-scenario/ar-AAVGMsr?li=AAgfLCP

Leaving really isn't an easy option.
We can't just walk across a border. ::)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 31, 2022, 10:07:47 pm
None of the above addresses the fundamental problems, batteries all degrade over time then must be dealt with somehow, as do solar PV, as do catalysts in fuel cells. None of them are currently recycled, at the moment the nascent art of recycling is a dream.

Most of those pushing for these types of renewable energy would seem to have a conflict, and willfully ignore the filthy nature of the consuming solution they push. It is the same old filthy consumption model that Henry Ford marketed, rows and rows of panels and battery packets all mass produced assembled and sold for the consumers guilt free green pleasure. Just don't look under the mat! 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 31, 2022, 10:11:16 pm
Him?  Sorry.  Can't stand the guy.
Agree, not a real fan of his humour and don't see him as an authority on world affairs either.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on March 31, 2022, 10:14:58 pm
Still waiting for steggall to switch over to an ev like she promised.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 31, 2022, 10:15:31 pm
Batteries still have a very real issue. They need to be charged.
Yep it's an absurdity, they talk like solid state and higher energy densities are all on the same page, when in fact they are different sides of the ledger. Most of the functional ultra high energy research batteries are single use, and the solid state solutions need to be towed on a trailer behind a Toyota Leaf to get people 200 km!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 31, 2022, 10:20:24 pm
batteries all degrade over time then must be dealt with somehow, as do solar PV, as do catalysts in fuel cells. None of them are currently recycled, at the moment the nascent art of recycling is a dream.
So recycling batteries & solar PV is pie in the sky stuff but recycling nuclear waste is a done deal:
Nuclear energy waste is evolving too.  They are finding ways to reuse spent fuel, rather than simply store it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 31, 2022, 10:47:11 pm
So recycling batteries & solar PV is pie in the sky stuff but recycling nuclear waste is a done deal:
No not at all, but by volume for the amount of fission energy delivered the fission waste is minuscule, not even in the register.

The recycling issue for PV / battery is more analogous to developing fusion as the nuclear solution.

The renewable investment risk is huge, if they crack fusion the renewables  are worthless overnight! They must think fusion is a go and safe, they are now building a new pilot within the boundaries of greater London. That's a true bet by someone with deep pockets!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 31, 2022, 10:52:00 pm
Not if you include lethality in the equation. Putin doesn't even need much polonium to do the job.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 31, 2022, 10:52:14 pm
And it only took them 70 years to do it. Imagine how much better (and how recyclable) non-nuclear batteries will be in the year 2060 ...
the world has come a long way in the last 20 years.   Technology advances very quickly but I see more merit in advances in nuclear than I do in renewables.   Flooding the landscape with wind turbines and solar panels is noble but it just needs to have baseload somewhere in that equation.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on March 31, 2022, 11:35:14 pm
Not if you include lethality in the equation. Putin doesn't even need much polonium to do the job.
or lithium! ;)

You need to think before you post, emotion is not going to cut it in this debate. How many micrograms of nuclear waste for every tonne of lithium, cadmium, sulfide waste?

We are building a new train tunnel in Vic with a budget in the billions, we could build a tunnel the same scale in the middle of nowhere and stored a hundred years of the whole world's nuclear waste earning trillions in the process, and it wouldn't even cover the area of a biro line drawn on the page of a street directory! Zero carbon emissions and stored for an eternity!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on April 01, 2022, 12:38:44 am
Emotional? Mr Spock is more emotional than my post.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on April 01, 2022, 06:21:40 am
Or maybe you could say Mme Curie unfortunately was at the cutting edge of new rather than mature technology. Nuclear power is now very mature whereas renewables and battery technologies will improve rapidly. Confining the comparison of nuclear and fossil fuel energy generation to only existing renewables & battery technology is misleading.

The thing with batteries is, besides the waste issue that comes along with them, is the more power you force into them, and the smaller you make them, the more dangerous they become.

We are walking around with bombs in our pockets already, better technology just means bigger bombs.

Have a look at a video of a phone battery exploding and remind yourself it's usually in a pocket that is inches away from your manhood.
Remember the Samsung phone batteries exploding when they got too hot?

I'm all for more research into batteries, but there is a limit to the size and power they can get too, and the waste that comes with it. Not to mention the fact we will probably run out of resources and/or destroy the planet trying to find it.
In the end we'd hope to achieve something close to what nuclear power already gives us....so let's just skip 70 years of research and get to the same point we are now.

There are a couple of docos about batteries and technology worth watching from a few years ago. They go through the intricacies of it all and the challenges facing them. It actually does more harm than good to the point trying to be made imo.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 01, 2022, 07:57:29 am
Emotional? Mr Spock is more emotional than my post.
References to Polonium are clearly meant to scare readers, ignoring some good works of fiction just how many people have been offed using this method, out of the nearly 8 Billion currently on the planet? I mean we are all at so much risk, popping off like Polonium lightbulbs!

My mates are going on a dive trip to Bikini Atoll next year, a friend who went there back in 2019 is taking them, they have been planning it right through the pandemic and keep getting delayed by a virus., Apparently though according to you sources fusion bombs have left the joint is contaminated for 10,000 years!

Nuclear weapons and fallout are bad, but on average you get more radiation from living above a coal seam than you get from a power station or weapons residuals. you are more at risk visiting Cardiff or Yarram for a holiday than travelling to Bikini Atoll or Fugkushima Japan!

Should we ban living in South Eastern Victoria, the major coal seam runs from Metung to Ballarat? Apparently not, but burying radioactive stuff under ground isn't a solution, so I hear!

Emotion won't cut it in this debate, the feel good solutions are falling short of expectation, and all they are really doing is just another version of pushing the problem into another time and space. The planet needs stuff that actually works without carbon emission now, and it can't wait for a the glimmer of hope promised but not yet delivered by some ideologues green nirvana!

The truth hides in plain site, so many people know it, the billionaires sell you batteries and panels while they develop nuclear and hydrogen on the quiet, they aren't going to go all in on a high risk renewable bet with the only home they can really ever have! All the other shizen, moving to Mars, living under the sea, sailing off to a new planet is for Homer Simpson!

FMD, They just approved billions for an offshore windfarm in Bass Strait, how long will that last? The Navys of the world scrap billion dollars vessels each year because they can't solve "The corrosion problem" and they have been working on it for 200 years. The green dream public think they are going to build a forest of wind farms offshore and let them run for decades and decades out at sea providing green carbon free energy, when in reality they will need to be rebuilt or replaced completely on regular intervals. They'll barely get the carbon budget back from the processing of the materials they need let alone power anyone with decades of surplus green energy.

The biggest reason all these green projects get approval is economics and nothing to do with the triple bottom line, they can be monetised so someone gets to make a profit even if it's only until the subsidies run out.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on April 01, 2022, 09:05:02 am
What uplifting emotional landscapes you show me! Young girls skipping through nuclear waste followed by cute fluffy dogs. It's not a threat to health at all!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on April 01, 2022, 09:13:51 am
And now I'm terrified about battery bombs going off. Why hasn't the military thought of dropping second-hand phones on the enemy? That's the best recycling plan ever. Nuclear warheads are so old hat.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 01, 2022, 10:01:31 am
I declare my ignorance on this subject, straight up, so the following may seem naive.

From my limited (very) knowledge on this it seems just about any electricity source brings with it it's own unique problems.

I've watched docos that are pro nuclear and others than are anti nuclear (attempting to educate myself. Ditto windfarms, solar and even tidal things!).

Seems that economics play a large and controlling role in all this... quick fixes with quick and continued financial returns (on corporate investment) seem to be big drivers.

Hydroelectric power has strong pros re emissions but even the large dams needed are problematic - setup costs, environmental impact, local community impact, climate vulnerabilities and even methane gas releases over time. But having lived in areas with a predominant hydroelectric power generation the improved air quality was palpable, though there may well have been other factors contributing to this ie, NZ, which has better than 50% hydro usage, is also small with plenty of wind to remove pollution... though some (polluted air) is blowing in now from other countries. I think that Tassies hydroelectric power accounts for more than three quarters of the states power and boy, the air quality there is noticeably cleaner.

We live in West Gippsland and even an hours drive to the city (Melb) delivers a difference in air quality that is noticeable.

Although perhaps very anecdotal, when I was at Franganstan High (1400 students) back in the late 60s/early 70s, students with asthma were an oddity, in fact you could have counted them on your own fingers! Now, apparently, almost 33% of young folks have asthma issues from mild, occasional... to chronic. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on April 01, 2022, 10:05:43 am
Baggers, you’re a Frankganistan escapee ?
This explains a lot… 😎
🤣🤣
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on April 01, 2022, 10:28:56 am
Quote
Russian troops began leaving the Chernobyl nuclear plant after soldiers got “significant doses” of radiation from digging trenches at the highly contaminated site, Ukraine’s state power company said Thursday as fighting raged on the outskirts of Kyiv and other fronts.

Energoatom gave no details on the condition of the troops or how many were affected. But it said the Russians had dug in in the forest inside the exclusion zone around the now-closed plant, the site in 1986 of the world’s worst nuclear disaster.

The troops “panicked at the first sign of illness,” which “showed up very quickly,” and began preparing to leave, Energoatom said.

Russian Troops Leave Chernobyl, Ukrainian Nuclear Operator Says, Huffpost. (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/russian-troops-leave-chernobyl-ukrainian-nuclear-operator-says_n_6245cac5e4b0e44de9bf1d14)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on April 01, 2022, 10:36:13 am
The "pollution" of wind farms across the landscapes is unsightly and offensive.  Estimated that over a million birds are killed each year.  Go nuclear
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 01, 2022, 10:46:20 am
Russian Troops Leave Chernobyl, Ukrainian Nuclear Operator Says, Huffpost. (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/russian-troops-leave-chernobyl-ukrainian-nuclear-operator-says_n_6245cac5e4b0e44de9bf1d14)
So it's true, dirt does protect you and burying the longer lived waste deep is a viable solution! ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 01, 2022, 10:49:39 am
And now I'm terrified about battery bombs going off. Why hasn't the military thought of dropping second-hand phones on the enemy? That's the best recycling plan ever. Nuclear warheads are so old hat.
It's easier to extract deadly poisons from your iOS or Android device, isotopes of lithium, beryllium, cadmium, rubidium and stick them in your leg with a hypodermic than it is to obtain polonium pellets for the same job!

Or I could just go around the house and collect up all the smoke detectors and send you an Americium microdot, job done!

Maybe just get Telstra to install a 5G tower in your backyard, why not take out eh whole neighbourhood just as a safe margin!

For for god sake, stay away from the banana traders!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on April 01, 2022, 10:50:08 am
So it's true, dirt does protect you and burying the longer lived waste deep is a viable solution! ;)
Yes, it's wonderful to see the preschoolers playing in the parks in the vibrant and thriving Chernobyl suburbs.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 01, 2022, 10:53:11 am
Yes, it's wonderful to see the preschoolers playing in the parks in the vibrant and thriving Chernobyl suburbs.
Of course because we commercially scatter nuclear waste from modern facilities on the ground like fertiliser, much the same way we spread silicate dusts from production of solar panels!

How many lithium battery fires have we had at those mega sites so far, have they manged to put them out yet, do you live downwind of one?

What about those self-combusting Tesla's, Prius or Leaf, has it happened in your neighbourhood yet and did you get evacuated or did breakfast taste faintly metallic?

By the way, have you noticed the almost complete absence of poisons or harm information from sites like Wikipedia relating to Lithium or lithium compounds? They used to be included in those pages but it seems it is no longer political or socially acceptable to report or discuss such things so they are removed. Don't talk about the war!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 01, 2022, 11:09:59 am
Hydroelectric power has strong pros re emissions but even the large dams needed are problematic - setup costs, environmental impact, local community impact, climate vulnerabilities and even methane gas releases over time.
The methane is an issue, but it's an issue made even bigger by the Solar PV and Wind farm boosters, they aren't really for all low or no carbon solutions but for their green solution which is "All Good". It's a hypocrisy that we can all see, and the louder they become the more widely it is exposed.

The truth is of course that every large water basin, lakes, seas and oceans release methane. It is an even bigger problem when they don't because the gradual release is quite natural while the accumulation and sudden release can be devastating.

@Baggers‍ As you suggest there is no one solution, the minute they stop postulating their specific solution as the one and only best solution they may actually make some progress in getting people to listen and act. Many hands make light work, and the same applies to technological solutions.

I read an article last year about protestors opposing the mining of underwater resources for rare earths due to the potential release of methane, but apparently it's OK do so under permafrost in high northern latitudes when the mine is collecting rare earths for use in Chinese production of your solar PV or wind farm components. But if Apple or Samsung do it to provide high tech semiconductors for phones, TVs or perhaps on the side the odd pacemaker, then it's evil, the double standard is alarming.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 01, 2022, 11:10:44 am
They run tours to Chernobyl, you can explore buildings and the old villages.Everything is still the same as when everyone left.
You get a tour guide with a Geiger counter and then have to go through a airport like metal detector which reads your radiation levels.A few old locals still live in the area with no power, no running water etc.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 01, 2022, 11:23:02 am
What the feck happens to Hawthorn FC if the State Rail loop gets kiboshed?

Those long term projections are based on hosting games at a boutique station that has a suburban rail loop station effectively under the venue. There must be some grey looking executives floating around Waverley Park today!

The AFL can't have Hawthorn fail, so that means we all end up subsidising that folly!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 01, 2022, 12:06:39 pm
Baggers, you’re a Frankganistan escapee ?
This explains a lot… 😎
🤣🤣

Settle...  :))  :))

Back in those days Franganistan was a lovely seaside town. With precious little crime. But by the late 70s things changed... and I was long gone by then, thank the gods!

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 01, 2022, 12:19:09 pm
Baggers, you’re a Frankganistan escapee ?
This explains a lot… 😎
🤣🤣
Excuse me, it's being rebranded now, the Majorca of the Southern Hemisphere.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 01, 2022, 12:22:43 pm
Settle...  :))  :))

Back in those days Franganistan was a lovely seaside town. With precious little crime. But by the late 70s things changed... and I was long gone by then, thank the gods!
I remember when I was a kid heading down that way for the weekend over the holidays, car packed the hilt like nothing was available that far south, sometimes Mornington, Mt Martha, Rosebud, Rye, Sorrento, barely 40km from home but if we left anything behind there was no way Dad wasn't going back.

We would stop at the bottom of Oliver's Hill on the way home for an Ice-cream from the vans that would be in the carpark.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on April 01, 2022, 12:30:09 pm
I remember when I was a kid heading down that way for the weekend over the holidays, car packed the hilt like nothing was available that far south, sometimes Mornington, Mt Martha, Rosebud, Rye, Sorrento, barely 40km from home but if we left anything behind there was no way Dad wasn't going back.

We would stop at the bottom of Oliver's Hill on the way home for an Ice-cream from the vans that would be in the carpark.

I lived on top of "Snob Hill" and my paperound went up and down it... :(
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 01, 2022, 12:35:48 pm
I lived on top of "Snob Hill" and my paperound went up and down it... :(
I've friends living there now, the area has really cleaned up the area from a decade or two ago. We went for a walk around the to the VFL ground, the flash new units and townhouses in the back streets aren't going to be flop houses of the 80s and 90s, most of us won't be able to afford them! Cars parked around the area are a tell, BMW, Merc, Astin, Audi even a Ferrari.

How is this for good fortune, my mates brother won Tattslotto, so his brother bought him "the cottage" at the top of Olivers Hill!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 01, 2022, 01:14:00 pm
I lived on top of "Snob Hill" and my paperound went up and down it... :(
@northernblue‍ That reminds me, Graham Kennedy would do a radio/tv sketch about hunting down a problematic paperboy that Kennedy claimed was based on real life issues with his local paperboy, he lived in the turret house on Oliver's Hill too!

I'm not pointing any fingers! ::)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 01, 2022, 01:15:46 pm
Holy mackerel! Memory lane stuff! Olivers Hill was one of my fave 'parking' spots! Along with Gulls Way. Or a 'fun' evening at the Dromana Drive-in! We lived in Franganstan South... the elite side of Franger  :))  :))  :))

So many friends from that area... Fleetwood Cres and surrounds. Much mischief at Sweetwater Creek too.  :-X
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 01, 2022, 01:20:40 pm
Holy mackerel! Memory lane stuff! Olivers Hill was one of my fave 'parking' spots! Along with Gulls Way. Or a 'fun' evening at the Dromana Drive-in! We lived in Franganstan South... the elite side of Franger  :))  :))  :))

So many friends from that area... Fleetwood Cres and surrounds. Much mischief at Sweetwater Creek too.  :-X
Nearly bought a house in Fleetwood Cres years ago, double story had floor to second storey ceiling mirrors that came out of the old Vic State Theatre. We went and got lunch at John Hasting's cafe, Mr Frankie, around in Norman Ave as well.

Was it you who threw the rocks through Jack Dyers front window after the 73 GF, the infamous game that saw Balme king hit Gentlement Geoff Southby?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on April 01, 2022, 01:24:02 pm
Gra Gra had moved on, but yes I delivered to that house.
I was in Grange Rd, so yes I'm very familiar with Fleetwood Cres and Sweetwater creek !
I also had a friend who lived on Norman Ave, so plenty of mischief at the shops too.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 01, 2022, 01:29:24 pm
Gra Gra had moved on, but yes I delivered to that house.
I was in Grange Rd, so yes I'm very familiar with Fleetwood Cres and Sweetwater creek !
I also had a friend who lived on Norman Ave, so plenty of mischief at the shops too.
There was a guy who lived in "The Grange", little Chinese fellow, owned the only Chinese Restaurant down near the Pier Hotel was a mad mad sports fan for just about any sport you can think of, I think his name was Patrick because we made jokes about him being a Chinese Leprechaun, yes, there was no political correctness back then. I remember him because I had another mate who held his wedding reception in that Chinese Restaurant and to this day he still boasts about being able to feed 80 people for $5 a head, after the reception Patrick took a few of us playing Snooker and Billiards at a local hall, including the Groom, after all some of us were already dressed for it, not sure the bride was too happy! :o

Long long time ago!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 01, 2022, 02:44:36 pm
FMD, They just approved billions for an offshore windfarm in Bass Strait, how long will that last? The Navys of the world scrap billion dollars vessels each year because they can't solve "The corrosion problem" and they have been working on it for 200 years. The green dream public think they are going to build a forest of wind farms offshore and let them run for decades and decades out at sea providing green carbon free energy, when in reality they will need to be rebuilt or replaced completely on regular intervals. They'll barely get the carbon budget back from the processing of the materials they need let alone power anyone with decades of surplus green energy.

The HMAS Melbourne was launched in 1945 (as HMS Majestic) and was scrapped in 1982.  The ARA General Belgrano was launched in 1938 (as USS Phoenix) and, after surviving Pearl Harbour, was still going strong in 1982 when its career was rudely interrupted by a torpedo from HMS Conqueror.  HMS Belfast and HMCS Sackville were commissioned in 1939 and 1941 respectively and both are still afloat as museum ships. Then there's USS Blue Ridge, a relative newcomer as it was only commissioned in 1970, that is still operational as flagship of the US 7th Fleet.

We did foolishly buy two rustbuckets from the USN in 1994; HMAS Kanimbla and Manoora.  Both were commissioned in the USN in 1971 and decommissioned from the RAN in 2011.  Forty years isn't bad but it cost millions to keep those two serviceable.

Maintaining infrastructure in marine environments has its challenges but good design, materials and maintenance will result in decades of service.  South Channel Light is a good example; built in 1874, it only began to deteriorate after the light was turned off in 1985 and maintenance stopped. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on April 01, 2022, 05:12:58 pm
Emotional? Mr Spock is more emotional than my post.

What uplifting emotional landscapes you show me! Young girls skipping through nuclear waste followed by cute fluffy dogs. It's not a threat to health at all!

lucky you are keeping emotion out of it. LOL


If you wanna play the health card, then look into it properly.

How many people have been killed/ injured by nuclear vs fossil fuels and the like?
Then look at it from an environmental point of view and weigh up the differences.
Then look at it from a mining point of view and weigh up the differences.

Then tell me with a straight face that nuclear is not safer.

But no, use 1 instance from 36 years ago as evidence.
You might as well tell me computers are no good because you had a commodore 64 36 years ago and the graphics were crap and the memory was almost non existent.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on April 01, 2022, 05:24:12 pm
I declare my ignorance on this subject, straight up, so the following may seem naive.

From my limited (very) knowledge on this it seems just about any electricity source brings with it it's own unique problems.

I've watched docos that are pro nuclear and others than are anti nuclear (attempting to educate myself. Ditto windfarms, solar and even tidal things!).

Seems that economics play a large and controlling role in all this... quick fixes with quick and continued financial returns (on corporate investment) seem to be big drivers.

Hydroelectric power has strong pros re emissions but even the large dams needed are problematic - setup costs, environmental impact, local community impact, climate vulnerabilities and even methane gas releases over time. But having lived in areas with a predominant hydroelectric power generation the improved air quality was palpable, though there may well have been other factors contributing to this ie, NZ, which has better than 50% hydro usage, is also small with plenty of wind to remove pollution... though some (polluted air) is blowing in now from other countries. I think that Tassies hydroelectric power accounts for more than three quarters of the states power and boy, the air quality there is noticeably cleaner.

We live in West Gippsland and even an hours drive to the city (Melb) delivers a difference in air quality that is noticeable.

Although perhaps very anecdotal, when I was at Franganstan High (1400 students) back in the late 60s/early 70s, students with asthma were an oddity, in fact you could have counted them on your own fingers! Now, apparently, almost 33% of young folks have asthma issues from mild, occasional... to chronic. 

For "limited knowledge" you seen to be all over it.
Nothing is perfect.
Hydro electric is a great source of power with minimal environmental downsides compared to fossil fuels.
On small scales, it works wonders.

It's scaling these type of projects up to cover the required amount of power, in the required amount of spots that makes things start to be less attractive.

Fun fact....we, earth, is running out of sand.
We are consuming it (concrete) quicker than the earth can make it...and by a large scale.

When to you look at doing things on a global scale, all new sorts of problems come up.

Thats the issue with lithium batteries.
Standalone, they are a marvellous creation.
Put multiple in every car, house, tool, electronic  device....and use them like giant power storage facilities (taking over coal plants for example) and all of a sudden they are not so great. Then look at the life cycle of them, and the waste created, and they are terrible on a global scale.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 01, 2022, 05:46:23 pm
Was it you who threw the rocks through Jack Dyers front window after the 73 GF, the infamous game that saw Balme king hit Gentlement Geoff Southby?

I have an alibi ;D  Whilst the 73 GF was being played I was on Naval exercises aboard the HMAS Brisbane (Guided Missile Destroyer) with the Yanks in Hawaii - my first witnessing of the USS Kitty Hawk. Made our aircraft carrier, HMAS Melbourne, look like a match box next to a shoe box. We secured the ComCen (communications centre), tuned a top end HF unit and listened to the game. 3 of us were BlueBaggers! Lost the game, won the 'war games.'
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on April 01, 2022, 05:49:35 pm
How many people have been killed/ injured by nuclear vs fossil fuels and the like?
Then look at it from an environmental point of view and weigh up the differences.
Then look at it from a mining point of view and weigh up the differences.

Then tell me with a straight face that nuclear is not safer.

But no, use 1 instance from 36 years ago as evidence.
You might as well tell me computers are no good because you had a commodore 64 36 years ago and the graphics were crap and the memory was almost non existent.
True, if you could jump in the DeLorean and go back to the 50s, going nuclear would have been better regarding climate change than fossil fuels. But if we can't get the flux capacitor to work properly and we have to deal with the here and now, then we can use renewables that weren't around in the 50s. Best of both worlds.

By the way, the Commodore 64 analogy is perfect for those who want to argue that we should just assume that renewables and batteries and the recycling of them is static. Just like the Commodore 64, as the years roll on the developments in a growth sector will make the current technology look very Commodore 64-like.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 01, 2022, 05:50:13 pm
Gra Gra had moved on, but yes I delivered to that house.
I was in Grange Rd, so yes I'm very familiar with Fleetwood Cres and Sweetwater creek !
I also had a friend who lived on Norman Ave, so plenty of mischief at the shops too.

No mention of the famed 'round house' at the bottom of Olivers Hill? As kids we used to follow Sweetwater Creek from the round house to Sycamore Road!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on April 01, 2022, 06:46:02 pm
True, if you could jump in the DeLorean and go back to the 50s, going nuclear would have been better regarding climate change than fossil fuels. But if we can't get the flux capacitor to work properly and we have to deal with the here and now, then we can use renewables that weren't around in the 50s. Best of both worlds.

By the way, the Commodore 64 analogy is perfect for those who want to argue that we should just assume that renewables and batteries and the recycling of them is static. Just like the Commodore 64, as the years roll on the developments in a growth sector will make the current technology look very Commodore 64-like.

Your first paragraph is evidence that you don't have any facts to add to the debate, just emotive BS.

Your second paragraph is showing your ignorance. Moore's law - a mircrochip doubles the amount of transistors it can fit on it (or it halves its size) and halves its cost every 2 years. This is how computers get more and more powerful consistently.
However, we have almost reached the end game on this - 2025 some people think is the end.
Batteries, while different technologies have seen similar advances......but also are coming to an end with the capabilities available.

To assume a similar linear (or better) progression from here for the next few decades is extremely naive, and not possible.

So you can attempt that path, knowing the end game will not be what you require.....and waste however many years in the meantime or just skip to something that works better already, now.

Spend some time educating the public and demystifying nuclear power and we'll all be better off.

No flux capacitor required.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on April 01, 2022, 06:58:26 pm
No mention of the famed 'round house' at the bottom of Olivers Hill? As kids we used to follow Sweetwater Creek from the round house to Sycamore Road!

Sycamore Rd is taxing the grey matter a bit and the roundhouse people were dead to me... they didn't read the herald :D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on April 01, 2022, 07:19:08 pm
I won't bother reposting the article from ArsTechnica Kruddler but you can go back and have a look. Then you'll be able to tone down your emotional BS.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on April 01, 2022, 07:51:04 pm
I won't bother reposting the article from ArsTechnica Kruddler but you can go back and have a look. Then you'll be able to tone down your emotional BS.

I'll summise.
Old battery bad.
New battery good.

I've been using Li batteries in cordless tools for over 10 years now. Its not a new technology.
Everything i said about them holds true.

Don't get me wrong, i love them. But they are not the answer. They don't a candle to nuclear in the large scale.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 01, 2022, 07:58:59 pm
Maintaining infrastructure in marine environments has its challenges but good design, materials and maintenance will result in decades of service.  South Channel Light is a good example; built in 1874, it only began to deteriorate after the light was turned off in 1985 and maintenance stopped.
Longevity that results from a massive maintenance expenditure, a budget item that in Australia is often described as defence's biggest single operating expense. The US DoD budget for conducting R&D into how to tackle corrosion is billion$ of dollars.

I spent five years about twelve years ago doing R&D into techniques just to reduce the corrosion in one part of the rotor assembly of Seahawk helicopters, moving parts made of specific corrosion resistant alloys that have to go through a full $50K rebuild annually due to corrosion, and those parts are built out of the very same alloy that are used in wind turbine rotors.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 01, 2022, 11:03:32 pm
Longevity that results from a massive maintenance expenditure, a budget item that in Australia is often described as defence's biggest single operating expense. The US DoD budget for conducting R&D into how to tackle corrosion is billion$ of dollars.

I spent five years about twelve years ago doing R&D into techniques just to reduce the corrosion in one part of the rotor assembly of Seahawk helicopters, moving parts made of specific corrosion resistant alloys that have to go through a full $50K rebuild annually due to corrosion, and those parts are built out of the very same alloy that are used in wind turbine rotors.

The archaeological laboratory that I managed processed artefacts recovered from shipwrecks and I learned a little about saltwater corrosion.  And that reminds me that the Polly Woodside, launched in 1885, is still afloat.  The Polly Woodside, HMCS Sackville and HMS Belfast are kept afloat on the smell of an oily rag.  The same is true for HMAS Melbourne and ARA General Belgrano and probably for USS Blue Ridge.  HMASs Kanimbla and Manoora were too expensive to keep in service because the fabric of both ships was badly corroded before we bought them.  We still got 17 years out of them, less downtime for extensive refits.

Seahawk helicopter rotor assemblies employ cadmium-plated Cr-Mo alloy steel and 2014-T6 aluminium alloy.  Wind turbine gearboxes use steel, aluminium or brass.

My oldest brother has post-graduate degrees in metallurgy and physics and was a senior research scientist with Aeronautical Research Laboratories and the Department of Defence.  He was a key witness in the Blackhawk enquiry, if your memory goes back that far.  He reckons that comparing naval ship or aircraft corrosion with the potential corrosion of wind turbines is like comparing apples and carrots.  Of course, then there's the five and half thousand wind turbines in European coastal waters, the first of which was operational in 1991.  Thirty years later and those original turbines are still going strong.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on April 02, 2022, 12:03:00 am
DJC, one highly respected expert disagrees with you:

Quote
Former President Trump is returning to one of his favorite energy subjects: bashing wind energy.

In a podcast episode released yesterday, the former president went on an extended screed about wind turbines, which included many of his years-old debunked or out-of-context claims about their cost and environmental impact.

“They don’t work, they’re too expensive, they kill all the birds, they ruin your landscapes. And yet, the environmentalists love the windmills,” Trump said on the Full Send Podcast, veering off topic from discussion of the Ukraine invasion.

“And I’ve been preaching this for years. The windmills. And I had them way down. But the windmills are the most expensive energy you can have. And they don’t work,” he continued.

“And by the way, they last a period of 10 years. And by the time they start rusting and rotting all over the place, nobody ever takes them down,” he said. “They just go to the next piece of prairie or land and destroy that.”

Trump has long been a vocal opponent of wind energy, even years before he ran for president in 2016, including an unsuccessful fight against offshore wind turbines near his golf resort in Scotland.

He has frequently made the same charges about wind turbines — “windmills,” as he almost always calls them — in campaign and White House appearances (Climatewire, Feb. 11, 2020).

Wind energy is usually cost-competitive with other electricity generation sources in the areas with heavy concentrations. Turbines rank low among threats to birds, and utilities are usually required to property dispose of the materials after they can no longer be used.

Trump slams wind power, again (https://www.eenews.net/articles/trump-slams-wind-power-again/), E&E News.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 02, 2022, 12:34:53 am
The fact that Chernobyl was brought up here as a con to nuclear power interesting.  It represents a failed attempt at controlling technology that wasn't so greatly understood 50 years ago now.

Thing is how many nuclear plants have been built since and how many more Chernobyl events have occurred?  How many of them have been caused by natural disasters which we generally don't experience here in Australia?

Its a blend situation.  The true reason nuclear is held back is due to the uranium factor.  It isn't abundant and no nation really trusts selling it abroad because not all of it would be used for power.  This limits the capability to profit off the product unless we start throwing caution to the wind.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 02, 2022, 12:39:52 am
DJC, one highly respected expert disagrees with you:

Trump slams wind power, again (https://www.eenews.net/articles/trump-slams-wind-power-again/), E&E News.


I think that proves my point; anything that troglodyte claims is, by definition, completely wrong.

I'm not suggesting that we should put all of our eggs in the wind turbine basket, but it's a significant part of the solution to our energy requirements.  I like the way European nations have gone about harvesting wind energy with turbines off-shore and in ports and industrial areas.  I'm not sure that our wind farm approach is the best way to go.

Aurangzeb's pontification is a bit like that of our failed treasurer/US ambassador; it's not about aesthetics, it's about our responsibility to the generations that come after us.  Sadly, the Government's appeal against Mordy Bromberg's decision that Governments have a duty to protect children against climate change was successful, but that's not the end of the matter.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 02, 2022, 12:46:36 am
Windfarms require a lot of land and wind turbines are a cause of major issues when attaching them to the grid given the variations in wind energy, poor regulation in heavy loads causing frequency fluctuations which means they are really only useful for low load applications where you can smooth out the fluctuations easier and provide a steady frequency.So they really are useful only in low load applications with frequency drift friendly equipment.
You also have the basic requirement of having to find vacant land in an area where there is a consistent source of wind which is usually in outer areas which creates infrastructure problems .
They also create massive noise problems  which means health issues, wildlife issues, and the environmentally friendly wind source isn't so green after all.
Nuclear is the most efficient way to go..the reality is though you don't want a nuke plant providing more than 10% of your total power which means the public have to get used to living in Aus with multiple nuke plants connected. Some people have the idea it's one plant providing all the power for the country, that's not how it works as you need to be able to isolate reactors for safety and maintenance.
France has 50 odd reactors...downside in Aus is our limited water resources. Reactors need water to generate steam to turn the turbines...allbeit the water is recycled it's still a lot of water. Which means your nuke plants have to be built near decent water supplies which cuts down your choices of location in Australia.
Id see Nuclear as initially being part of a total plan with several energy sources but eventually becoming the major source down the track as the population increases.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on April 02, 2022, 12:49:00 am
Yep DJC, it must be uncomfortable to find oneself in agreement with an absolute moron like Trump, particularly when his claims were dismissed by the Scottish courts. At the very least, checking one's facts might be an appropriate reaction to being in that predicament.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 02, 2022, 12:49:22 am
The fact that Chernobyl was brought up here as a con to nuclear power interesting.  It represents a failed attempt at controlling technology that wasn't so greatly understood 50 years ago now.

Thing is how many nuclear plants have been built since and how many more Chernobyl events have occurred?  How many of them have been caused by natural disasters which we generally don't experience here in Australia?

Its a blend situation.  The true reason nuclear is held back is due to the uranium factor.  It isn't abundant and no nation really trusts selling it abroad because not all of it would be used for power.  This limits the capability to profit off the product unless we start throwing caution to the wind.

Nuclear power plants were supplying a peak of 17.5% of the world's power in 1996.  They now supply 10.3% of the world's power.

The real reason why nuclear power is becoming irrelevant as a power source is ecomics; it's cheaper to use sustainable energy sources and the risk factors are much lower.  It's actually a bit scary that private enterprise is driving the change to sustainable energy sources and dragging governments along in their wake.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 02, 2022, 07:53:14 am

Seahawk helicopter rotor assemblies employ cadmium-plated Cr-Mo alloy steel and 2014-T6 aluminium alloy.  Wind turbine gearboxes use steel, aluminium or brass.
Both those points are simply generalisations, the parts corroding are special lightweight alloys chosen specifically for resistance, chosen for there ability to be additive manufactured and none are plated. Titanium is only one of them, there is very little steel it's too heavy. And you would know mixing metals in such and environment can make things even worse without mitigation steps.

The wind turbines are in the same locations, but none survive 30 years on original parts, just like ships have been in dry dock and recoated dozens of times and had many components replaced.

I was sponsored by the Fed's to go to Germany and study this very issue among others a decade or so back.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 02, 2022, 09:40:00 am
Nuclear power plants were supplying a peak of 17.5% of the world's power in 1996.  They now supply 10.3% of the world's power.

The real reason why nuclear power is becoming irrelevant as a power source is ecomics; it's cheaper to use sustainable energy sources and the risk factors are much lower.  It's actually a bit scary that private enterprise is driving the change to sustainable energy sources and dragging governments along in their wake.

The world changes a lot in that time.

Nuclear power has a long run up to build one.

In that time the power mix changes to do more with what comes online than anything going offline.

I think nuclear will make more sense both financially and bang for buck.  There are a multitude of reasons not to build them and its got to do with the no one wants one near them factor more than anything else IMHO. 


Thats fair.  I don't have any good answers but gum trees around my property limit the viability of solar panels at my place. 

Id be on the roof cleaning a lot.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on April 02, 2022, 09:45:13 am
@Thry

Cut down the gum trees and use them for firewood.  😁
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 02, 2022, 02:23:36 pm
@Thry

Cut down the gum trees and use them for firewood.  😁
Reminds me of the farmers who have taken to installing cell portable towers and flying agri-drones just outside the radio quiet perimeter of the SKA, in protest to it being built!

Some are even trying to claim that the SKA emits harmful radio waves, focussing the energy of the universe like an Egyptian pyramid no doubt. Remember pyramid Power. So their protest solution is to make even more RF noise in an attempt to damage / degrade the performance of the SKA! ::)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 02, 2022, 11:00:16 pm
The world changes a lot in that time.

Nuclear power has a long run up to build one.

In that time the power mix changes to do more with what comes online than anything going offline.

I think nuclear will make more sense both financially and bang for buck.  There are a multitude of reasons not to build them and its got to do with the no one wants one near them factor more than anything else IMHO. 


Thats fair.  I don't have any good answers but gum trees around my property limit the viability of solar panels at my place. 

Id be on the roof cleaning a lot.

The fact of the matter is that nuclear power plants are being decommissioned and not replaced.  I think that's more to do with economics than environmental/climate change issues; renewables are cheaper and the baseload concerns are really just hot air.  Of course, storing renewable energy is not just about batteries; molten salt, heated sand and the generation of renewable fuels like hydrogen are realistic alternatives. 

My house is surrounded by gum trees and I'm about to double the number of solar panels on the roof.  The only problem I have is lichen growing on the panels.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 03, 2022, 12:46:00 am
55 new nuke plants being built and plenty more being uprated with 165 uprates in the USA alone.
Nuke plants get retired due to operational lifespan being met and its estimated that 123 will be retired by 2040 but 308 will come online.
Source the World Nuclear Association...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on April 03, 2022, 06:55:27 am
55 new nuke plants being built and plenty more being uprated with 165 being  uprated in the USA alone.
Nuke plants get retired due to operational lifespan being met and its estimated that 123 will be retired by 2040 but 308 will come online.
Source the World Nuclear Association...

Nothing like some facts to make a point :)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 03, 2022, 09:18:46 am
55 new nuke plants being built and plenty more being uprated with 165 being  uprated in the USA alone.
Nuke plants get retired due to operational lifespan being met and its estimated that 123 will be retired by 2040 but 308 will come online.
Source the World Nuclear Association...

With breathtaking cynicism and through a callous military lens, let me put on my devil's advocate hat for a moment with an obtuse view on nuclear energy.

Were I an enemy, a geographically distant enemy (or perhaps a terrorist), of a nation with nuclear power plants, I'd only need to destroy/sabotage them to get real 'bang for my buck'. Not only would I cause power supply issues but I'd have released some pretty harmful (to say the least) particles into their air/environment. And then when they were deploying enormous resources to limit the damage... they'd be weakened and primed for another strike.

Every power source has its pros and cons. None is a panacea. Just like our elections, so much is about choosing the lesser of the available evils (in a non-biblical sense).

Okay, the cynical cap is now off... phew... that was depressing! Right, onto more important issues... I wonder how our new look defense will stand up to the Dawks today?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 03, 2022, 09:43:04 am
The reality is fossil fuels out and nuclear in at some stage and like I said before people's idea that it's one nuke plant hidden in the outback somewhere isn't how it works and one means more if you want a decent chunk of your power from nuclear sources.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on April 03, 2022, 10:36:28 am
The reality is fossil fuels out and nuclear in at some stage and like I said before people's idea that it's one nuke plant hidden in the outback somewhere isn't how it works and one means more if you want a decent chunk of your power from nuclear sources.

If you caught that idiot Pelosi two days back saying the Democrats were on a mission to save the planet, it just demonstrates that the November mid terms cannot arrive soon enough.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 03, 2022, 11:17:56 am
55 new nuke plants being built and plenty more being uprated with 165 uprates in the USA alone.
Nuke plants get retired due to operational lifespan being met and its estimated that 123 will be retired by 2040 but 308 will come online.
Source the World Nuclear Association...

Quote
The USA has 93 operable nuclear reactors, with a combined net capacity of 95.5 GWe. In 2020, nuclear generated 19.7% of the country's electricity.There had been four AP1000 reactors under construction, but two of these have been cancelled. One of the reasons for the hiatus in new build in the USA to date has been the extremely successful evolution in maintenance strategies. Over the last 15 years, improved operational performance has increased utilisation of US nuclear power plants, with the increased output equivalent to 19 new 1000 MWe plants being built. 2016 saw the first new nuclear power reactor enter operation in the country for 20 years. Despite this, the number of operable reactors has reduced in recent years, from a peak of 104 in 2012. Early closures have been brought on by a combination of factors including cheap natural gas, market liberalization, over-subsidy of renewable sources, and political campaigning.
Source: World Nuclear Association

To summarise the "facts" provided by the World Nuclear Association for the USA:
* There are 93 operable nuclear reactors in the USA.
* Four reactors were under construction but two have been cancelled.
* Improved maintenance has increased operational performance.
* The first new nuclear power plant in over 20 years commenced operation in 2016.
* The number of operable reactors has declined from a peak of 104 in 2012 to 93 in 2020.

It's interesting to read through the nuclear programs of different nations with Germany set to end nuclear power generation this year and France scaling back to 50% by 2035, while countries like Turkey and Bangladesh are starting construction of their first power plants.  However, you do have to treat the World Nuclear Association data with a little caution; Australia is listed as one of about 30 countries that "are considering, planning or starting nuclear power programmes".  The Australian situation is covered in more detail, and quite accurately, in another section but our listing in that category is misleading.




Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 03, 2022, 01:37:49 pm
To summarise the "facts" provided by the World Nuclear Association for the USA:
* There are 93 operable nuclear reactors in the USA.
* Four reactors were under construction but two have been cancelled.
* Improved maintenance has increased operational performance.
* The first new nuclear power plant in over 20 years commenced operation in 2016.
* The number of operable reactors has declined from a peak of 104 in 2012 to 93 in 2020.

It's interesting to read through the nuclear programs of different nations with Germany set to end nuclear power generation this year and France scaling back to 50% by 2035, while countries like Turkey and Bangladesh are starting construction of their first power plants.  However, you do have to treat the World Nuclear Association data with a little caution; Australia is listed as one of about 30 countries that "are considering, planning or starting nuclear power programmes".  The Australian situation is covered in more detail, and quite accurately, in another section but our listing in that category is misleading.





France are planning 14 more nuclear reactors by 2050 according to Macron.France has no oil, no gas and no coal and wants to close it's remaining  fossil fuel burning plants.
Australia would need about 25 reactors and they take around 10 -15 years to build.
You need plenty of water and they need to be near consumers so that's building around the coast plus you need foreign investment from companies and the reality is that will come from China etc who already have a strong ownership in our distribution network.
Can't see any Government making the nuke call in Aus and risking the backlash in the short to medium term.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 03, 2022, 05:02:23 pm
France are planning 14 more nuclear reactors by 2050 according to Macron.France has no oil, no gas and no coal and wants to close it's remaining  fossil fuel burning plants.
Australia would need about 25 reactors and they take around 10 -15 years to build.
You need plenty of water and they need to be near consumers so that's building around the coast plus you need foreign investment from companies and the reality is that will come from China etc who already have a strong ownership in our distribution network.
Can't see any Government making the nuke call in Aus and risking the backlash in the short to medium term.
Need to put on the big boy pants, grow some balls and get on with it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on April 03, 2022, 05:06:16 pm
Can't see any Government making the nuke call in Aus and risking the backlash in the short to medium term.
Whether or not Nuclear is the way to go is 1 thing.....and a pretty easy decision IMO.

Whether or not the governments do it is another.....and we probably all know the likelyhood of doing the right thing.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on April 04, 2022, 08:25:20 pm
Interesting article about the impending closure of Eraring, the biggest coal-fired power station in Australia. Renewable power has resulted in the closure being brought forward by 7 years to 2025.

Switching off, abc.net.au (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-03/inside-eraring-power-station-coal-electricity/100953694)

Quote
For the most part, Eraring workers aren’t angry at Origin Energy. They have seen the rapid rise of renewables like rooftop solar steal the cream off the plant’s profits. And they’ve watched as their power station, which must run continuously, is forced to keep producing when the price of electricity crashes.

They understand that this, along with growing numbers of large wind and solar farms coming onto the grid, will make their coal-fired power station unviable.

Quote
For its part, Origin Energy plans to install a battery on the site of Eraring Power station.

The article shows how badly the shutdown will affect the workers at the plant and the local businesses which rely upon it. It also notes how well Germany handled the transition from fossil fuel energy generation to renewables and how badly governments handle the transition. The Germans made sure the transition would unfold over 50 years. Our transitions happen almost overnight.

But the fact that the power plant is going to be replaced by a battery is a pretty clear indication that nuclear power has no chance of taking off in Australia. The power plant is called Eraring after Lake Eraring, a plentiful supply of water. It also has the facilities to step up power to transmit it to the grid. After all, it supplies 20% of NSW's power. It's also in a regional location, so it wouldn't attract too many NIMBY complaints. I'd imagine the local residents would prefer the power plant to be replaced by another power station that would bring jobs with it, whereas the battery will only involve a construction crew of 128 and only 10 jobs once it's completed.

Yallourn is also closing by 2028 and will again be replaced by a battery:   Energy Australia to close Yallourn power station early and build 350 megawatt battery, abc.net.au. (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-10/yallourn-power-station-early-closure/13233274)




Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: crashlander on April 04, 2022, 08:35:08 pm
Speaking of the Ukraine, I have a better claim to rule the place than Vladimir Vladimirovich has: I have ancestors who ruled the area (including Great Prince Vladimir of the Kievan Rus). Also the Princes of Chernigov (Chernihiv, in Ukrainian).
It might be a technicality, but Vladimir Vladimirovich can't know his heritage back more than 4 generations: the Soviets destroyed most of the genealogical information in Russia not long after the Revolution. The idea was to make it impossible for people to claim lineage from the Tsars.

I used to work with a Russian lass in one of my earlier schools. She knew nothing of her family history past her grandparents. She thought it was a great joke that I was related the Great Princes of the Kievan Rus.
For that matter, so do I.
However, I still think I have a better claim: I'm not a homicidal maniac who kills his opponents.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on April 04, 2022, 09:52:37 pm
Fascinating Crash :)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 04, 2022, 09:59:14 pm
France are planning 14 more nuclear reactors by 2050 according to Macron.France has no oil, no gas and no coal and wants to close it's remaining  fossil fuel burning plants.
Australia would need about 25 reactors and they take around 10 -15 years to build.
You need plenty of water and they need to be near consumers so that's building around the coast plus you need foreign investment from companies and the reality is that will come from China etc who already have a strong ownership in our distribution network.
Can't see any Government making the nuke call in Aus and risking the backlash in the short to medium term.

Fourteen more nuclear plants might be according to Macron but the official policy is down to 50% by 2035.  That may change if Macron wins another term.

Nuclear power plants are regularly constructed within five years now.  Of course, there would have to be major legislative change at Commonwealth level as well as some States and Territories and I can't really see that happening.  Then there's the Environmental Effects Statement process so, from proposal to production could well take 10-15 years, if the legislative regime changed.

I can't see any Australian government allowing PRC investment in nuclear power stations and I suspect that we will be buying back the distribution network before long.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 04, 2022, 10:43:03 pm
Interesting article about the impending closure of Eraring, the biggest coal-fired power station in Australia. Renewable power has resulted in the closure being brought forward by 7 years to 2025.

Switching off, abc.net.au (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-03/inside-eraring-power-station-coal-electricity/100953694)

The article shows how badly the shutdown will affect the workers at the plant and the local businesses which rely upon it. It also notes how well Germany handled the transition from fossil fuel energy generation to renewables and how badly governments handle the transition. The Germans made sure the transition would unfold over 50 years. Our transitions happen almost overnight.

But the fact that the power plant is going to be replaced by a battery is a pretty clear indication that nuclear power has no chance of taking off in Australia. The power plant is called Eraring after Lake Eraring, a plentiful supply of water. It also has the facilities to step up power to transmit it to the grid. After all, it supplies 20% of NSW's power. It's also in a regional location, so it wouldn't attract too many NIMBY complaints. I'd imagine the local residents would prefer the power plant to be replaced by another power station that would bring jobs with it, whereas the battery will only involve a construction crew of 128 and only 10 jobs once it's completed.

Yallourn is also closing by 2028 and will again be replaced by a battery:   Energy Australia to close Yallourn power station early and build 350 megawatt battery, abc.net.au. (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-10/yallourn-power-station-early-closure/13233274)





The bottom line is what is driving this is not some almighty love of renewables by the owners....Energy Aust is the Chinese Light and Power company who couldnt give a flying feck about Aus Jobs, people or renewables. Its what makes them the most money for the least possible outlay, controlled by the mega rich Kadoorie clan who also own the Hong Kong Nuclear Investment Company so I wouldnt be getting too comfortable about no nukes down the track.
Origin are an listed ASX company and beholding to its shareholders and its two main shareholders are JP Morgans and HSBC Nominees Aus who are all Investment bankers which again is bottom line stuff so they wont be doing whats best for Australia and will be looking after their shareholders and directors. Management have always been diabolical although the new lot seem better than before...
An interesting side issue is the bid by the Canadian group Brookfield and Zillionaire Mike Cannon Brooks to takeover AGL and make the dirtiest power company in Aus the greenest by 2030...1st bid knocked back by the AGL board and rightly so but then knocked back the second bid as well.
These two entities do have the dough to make fossil fuel power station closures quicker and deliver on the renewable replacement equipment but want the business cheap and the Aus Govts policy is for coal powered plants to run their course.
There has to be middle ground in this where Brookefield/Cannon Brookes can guarantee employment for workers who lose their jobs and also make their offer more appealing which in turn who allow Government approval.
The Government dont have the money to make this project happen so it needs the money from these other sources and its worth looking at IMO and I'd rather Canadians owning part of the power grid supply than the Chinese.
Brookfield already own Ausnet an old employer of mine...

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 08, 2022, 10:49:43 am
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/how-vladimir-putin-s-war-in-ukraine-is-forcing-his-friends-to-choose-between-russia-and-the-west/ar-AAVYBFs?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=b13af01cc852473eac3e50287f1fb791

Everything old is new again.  Byzantine ties being the ones highlighted here.

I keep reminding people, to understand the present, history is the best guide we have, and those who ignore it are doomed to repeat it. 

Its all Roman era politics playing itself out over and over again. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 08, 2022, 03:03:18 pm
Oh my!
Quote
London: Boris Johnson has pledged to approve up to eight new nuclear power plants in the next eight years as Britain seeks to end its dependence on foreign oil and gas, and dramatically cut its emissions and lower household energy costs.
Who'd have thunk that wind wouldn't cut it for the UK or other European destinations!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on April 08, 2022, 03:21:10 pm
I wonder why he's not relying on solar. We have the full range of renewable solutions at our disposal.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on April 08, 2022, 03:38:49 pm
The thing that is often overlooked with this whole power thing is its availability.
The sun doesn't shine for 24 hours.
The wind doesn't blow for 24 hours.
What do you do in the meantime? You need some HUGE batteries to cope.....and then we start into our battery debate again.

What happens if we put all our eggs into the solar basket and there is a volcano, or even an asteroid that plunges a city, state, country into darkness for days on end? Remember the volcano that shut down all of europe a few years ago?

Nuclear works, just like coal, whenever you need it too.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on April 08, 2022, 03:50:55 pm
Yep, you can have those sorts of unexpected natural disasters. I seem to remember a Tsunami took out the nuclear power plant at Fookushima. It would indeed be unfortunate if we had a nuclear power plant that was taken out by a volcano, an earthquake or an asteroid strike.

PS: Yes, I know that's not the actual name of the place in Japan but the system changed what I wrote to screwushima!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 08, 2022, 04:03:34 pm
I wonder why he's not relying on solar. We have the full range of renewable solutions at our disposal.
I was surprised just how much solar they had last time I was in the UK, it's all over domestic roof tops, but I suppose the UK the population is less mobile, they tend to put down roots and stay.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 08, 2022, 04:18:23 pm
Yep, you can have those sorts of unexpected natural disasters. I seem to remember a Tsunami took out the nuclear power plant at Fookushima. It would indeed be unfortunate if we had a nuclear power plant that was taken out by a volcano, an earthquake or an asteroid strike.
The reality is that the bulk of harmful emissions from these events are very short lived and the bulk of it is contained to the immediate vicinity, the long lived stuff the anti-nuclear lobby continually harp on about remains contained. Three Mile Island for example emitted no radiation at all.

The real risk for long term dispersed contamination is the way waste is stored, handled and dispersed, not the threat of the power plant or it's reactors. Even the recent case in the Ukraine held very little risk of a major event, however if the same bombs had targeted the waste facilities then it would be a different matter. This is why I'm an advocate for Australia and other similar geographies to be global repositories for waste, and actually profit enormously from it. I realise the anti-nuclear / pro-renewables brigade rally against this idea, but in the same breath they demand Australia be held to account for it's waste from coal exports which seems hypocritical.

By volume more radioactive particulates are emitted from a normally operated coal fired plant over it's lifetime than will ever comes out of a normally operated nuclear plant over it's lifetime.

The best solution, in terms for having an immediate short term impact that can be sustained long term, seems to be a balanced approach using a diverse array of low carbon energy sources.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on April 08, 2022, 04:33:28 pm
Do you think it's a bit naive to be taking what Boris says to the bank? Boris, Scomo & Trump are birds of feather. Scomo has gone big on projects that will only start years into the future (if they ever do) and I guess Boris has learnt at the feet of the master.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 08, 2022, 04:44:10 pm
The reality is that the bulk of harmful emissions from these events are very short lived and the bulk of it is contained to the immediate vicinity, the long lived stuff the anti-nuclear lobby continually harp on about remains contained. Three Mile Island for example emitted no radiation at all.

The real risk for long term dispersed contamination is the way waste is stored, handled and dispersed, not the threat of the power plant or it's reactors. Even the recent case in the Ukraine held very little risk of a major event, however if the same bombs had targeted the waste facilities then it would be a different matter. This is why I'm an advocate for Australia and other similar geographies to be global repositories for waste, and actually profit enormously from it. I realise the anti-nuclear / pro-renewables brigade rally against this idea, but in the same breath they demand Australia be held to account for it's waste from coal exports which seems hypocritical.

By volume more radioactive particulates are emitted from a normally operated coal fired plant over it's lifetime than will ever comes out of a normally operated nuclear plant over it's lifetime.

The best solution, in terms for having an immediate short term impact that can be sustained long term, seems to be a balanced approach using a diverse array of low carbon energy sources.
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/07/1091396292/satellite-photo-shows-russian-troops-were-stationed-in-chernobyls-radioactive-zo
A few old locals still residing around those danger areas too, be interesting to test those Russian troops and those locals and see what levels they have. As you say I dont see a waste dump for profit being a popular idea in Aus, didnt that idea get brought up years ago with the French wanting to dump uranium waste in Aus?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on April 08, 2022, 06:26:10 pm
As you say I dont see a waste dump for profit being a popular idea in Aus, didnt that idea get brought up years ago with the French wanting to dump uranium waste in Aus?

Bob Hawke floated the idea in the 80s EB .... somewhere on the border of NT and SA
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 08, 2022, 06:38:53 pm
The thing that is often overlooked with this whole power thing is its availability.
The sun doesn't shine for 24 hours.
The wind doesn't blow for 24 hours.
If you can explain that to all the hippies it would be much appreciated. Good Luck.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 08, 2022, 06:41:29 pm
Do you think it's a bit naive to be taking what Boris says to the bank? Boris, Scomo & Trump are birds of feather. Scomo has gone big on projects that will only start years into the future (if they ever do) and I guess Boris has learnt at the feet of the master.

Amen.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 08, 2022, 06:44:14 pm
The thing that is often overlooked with this whole power thing is its availability.
The sun doesn't shine for 24 hours.
The wind doesn't blow for 24 hours.
What do you do in the meantime? You need some HUGE batteries to cope.....and then we start into our battery debate again.

What happens if we put all our eggs into the solar basket and there is a volcano, or even an asteroid that plunges a city, state, country into darkness for days on end? Remember the volcano that shut down all of europe a few years ago?

Nuclear works, just like coal, whenever you need it too.

Remember that there are other ways to store electrical energy than batteries; pump hydro, flywheel, compressed air, and thermal energy.  Then there's natural disasters and breakdowns taking out nuclear power plants.

A sensible approach would be to invest in everything but fossil fuel power generation.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on April 08, 2022, 06:49:53 pm
Remember that there are other ways to store electrical energy than batteries; pump hydro, flywheel, compressed air, and thermal energy.  Then there's natural disasters and breakdowns taking out nuclear power plants.

A sensible approach would be to invest in everything but fossil fuel power generation.

A smart way would be to invest in something that gives you best bang for your buck that is reliable and a long term option with much less effect on the environment than fossil fuels.
That is nuclear power.

Power Output vs waste produced dwarves anything else.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 08, 2022, 07:21:19 pm
A smart way would be to invest in something that gives you best bang for your buck that is reliable and a long term option with much less effect on the environment than fossil fuels.
That is nuclear power.

Power Output vs waste produced dwarves anything else.


Not really, renewable energy sources are providing significant electrical energy now and the energy storage methods available mean that there can be ongoing access to electricity when conditions don't suit generation (are there many days when the sun doesn't shine, the wind doesn't blow, waves aren't generated, the hydroelectricity dams are empty and the tides don't turn?).  Nuclear power could be part of the mix but fusion rather than fission seems to be the way ahead ... and it doesn't leave dangerous waste for many lifetimes.

Nuclear fusion reactors, like the one being built in France, have a way to go but have the potential to provide truly clean energy.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 08, 2022, 07:58:39 pm
The trouble is all those cost comparisons claiming solar and wind are much cheaper do not take into account the true cost of storage, the ongoing maintenance costs, and the effects of subsidies.

Nothing reported is like for like, it is very selective, and it's an indictment on all those involved in the debate so I trust none of them.

On storage like hydro and thermal, it's also not necessarily the best option. Raising and lower water levels or temperatures have a similar side effect that result in the emission of methane. Solar thermal has some advantages, but to build an array that can deliver power in daylight hours and still store enough thermal for overnight requires massive arrays on a scale well beyond the current capability, they also have environmental impacts and huge ongoing maintenance costs. Flywheels and compressed gases are an option for small distributed systems, like street batteries, but they all have issues related to the environmental impact, cost and ongoing maintenance, which are again not factored into the cost comparisons between renewable and alternatives.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 08, 2022, 08:45:38 pm
The trouble is all those cost comparisons claiming solar and wind are much cheaper do not take into account the true cost of storage, the ongoing maintenance costs, and the effects of subsidies.

Nothing reported is like for like, it is very selective, and it's an indictment on all those involved in the debate so I trust none of them.

On storage like hydro and thermal, it's also not necessarily the best option. Raising and lower water levels or temperatures have a similar side effect that result in the emission of methane. Solar thermal has some advantages, but to build an array that can deliver power in daylight hours and still store enough thermal for overnight requires massive arrays on a scale well beyond the current capability, they also have environmental impacts and huge ongoing maintenance costs. Flywheels and compressed gases are an option for small distributed systems, like street batteries, but they all have issues related to the environmental impact, cost and ongoing maintenance, which are again not factored into the cost comparisons between renewable and alternatives.

Yes that’s true LP, and particularly when you consider that:

Quote
Australian fossil fuel subsidies hit $10.3 billion in 2020-21

Of course, a significant amount of the “renewable energy” subsidies is allocated to the fictional “clean coal” research effort.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 08, 2022, 09:12:43 pm
Yes that’s true LP, and particularly when you consider that:

Of course, a significant amount of the “renewable energy” subsidies is allocated to the fictional “clean coal” research effort.
No disputing that, now tell us the like for like!

Also tell everyone the source of the numbers and how they are calculated. Also if we calculated the figures for both sides of the debate using the same rules, how would they fall?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 08, 2022, 09:17:22 pm
Bob Hawke floated the idea in the 80s EB .... somewhere om the border on NT and SA
Right you are Cap, dont think it was well received then or would be now.....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 08, 2022, 09:27:53 pm
No disputing that, now tell us the like for like!

$2.8 billion for renewable energy, including the “clean coal” allocation.

Renewable energy amounted to 32.5% of electricity generated in 2021 so, even discounting the “clean coal” scam, taxpayers are shelling out more to keep the coal-fired power stations going.  Even with that significant assistance, energy companies are bailing out of coal plants because there’s no money to be made.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 08, 2022, 09:48:15 pm
Not really, renewable energy sources are providing significant electrical energy now and the energy storage methods available mean that there can be ongoing access to electricity when conditions don't suit generation (are there many days when the sun doesn't shine, the wind doesn't blow, waves aren't generated, the hydroelectricity dams are empty and the tides don't turn?).  Nuclear power could be part of the mix but fusion rather than fission seems to be the way ahead ... and it doesn't leave dangerous waste for many lifetimes.

Nuclear fusion reactors, like the one being built in France, have a way to go but have the potential to provide truly clean energy.
Mind boggling process building a mini star/sun contained in a magnetic field within a reactor casing that can take a 1300 degrees celsius temperature.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 08, 2022, 09:57:31 pm
Mind boggling process building a mini star/sun contained in a magnetic field within a reactor casing that can take a 1300 degrees celsius temperature.

Absolutely!  But it’s happening now!

I should have paid more attention in physics 🙄
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 08, 2022, 10:39:28 pm
Absolutely!  But it’s happening now!

I should have paid more attention in physics 🙄
Me too, I did Elec Engineering at Swinburne Uni  but Nuclear Fusion was never one of the prac classes...😉
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 08, 2022, 10:57:33 pm
Me too, I did Elec Engineering at Swinburne Uni  but Nuclear Fusion was never one of the prac classes...😉

My oldest brother is a physicist.  When he explains things like nuclear fusion it all seems so simple and feasible.

One of my staff was the humanities rep on the Australian Synchrotron committee of management.  When he explained how it worked and what it could do, it made perfect sense.  However, I still struggle to understand the theory behind it.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on April 09, 2022, 08:55:14 am
Me too, I did Elec Engineering at Swinburne Uni  but Nuclear Fusion was never one of the prac classes...😉
I did same at La Trobe, while there wasn't a prac class, there was certainly some lectures on it. The benefits of Nuclear was akin to something like Coal powered plant vs a guy a bicycle powered generator.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 09, 2022, 10:02:45 am
I did same at La Trobe, while there wasn't a prac class, there was certainly some lectures on it. The benefits of Nuclear was akin to something like Coal powered plant vs a guy a bicycle powered generator.
We had lectures on Nuclear Power but Fusion was a process considered something akin to star trek travel and it was all about Fission back in my day.
At the end of the day it's turbines being run by steam from heated water , how you heat the water is the debate. Even your so called green Windfarms still rely on Turbines, generators, gearboxes and associated electrical equipment, as well as suck up gallons of oil.
Fission, Fusion...doesn't matter as long as it's a balanced setup with renewables and nuclear working together. Fusion would be great but the tech is still in the early days..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: crashlander on April 09, 2022, 10:15:55 am
When it comes to power supplies, my favourite is Solar Power Satellites.
Yes, I am a SF freak, and yes, I even write the stuff, but there are major reasons why I like this system.

What does it consist of?
SPS consists of a series of huge mirrors in space that collect and focus the sunlight into a collector. The collector them beams the energy directly to a base station on Earth that converts the energy into electricity, which is then available to the entire grid.

My reasons:
[1] Like a dam, the initial costs are almost the only costs you have. The collector satellites can collect 24 hours a day, 365.25 days per year and they can be made almost as large as you wish. The material requires a little effort holding it in space, but can be basically like Aluminium foil. There is no structural strength required. The satellites are in orbit and don't require much at all to maintain them.
[2] Your base station is best placed in a desert area where they are few, if any, humans. The energy beams down every single minute of every day, however, it doesn't have to be visible light. You just have to be careful not to fly through it.
[3] Australia has plenty of desert that would be perfect for such base station. We would become the world's largest energy source. Taxes and royalties would be minimal per kilowatt of power, but would supply the government with huge quantities of money. And no government that has ever existed doesn't want more money.
[4] The collectors would be a series of satellites in orbit that would shift the energy around so that it is always focussed on the base station.
[5] There is space construction required, but I am all for as much of this as we can manage. The actual engineering is relatively straight forward. There are so many resources out there that do not have populations restricting their use.

The idea has been around for a long time, but neither the Soviets (in their day) nor the Americans were willing to cough up the money. That is probably more the case now, as most people just don't think of space construction. After all, nobody bothers to put reasonable quantities of money into the International Space Station, and that is a tiny triviality.
There is enormous profit to made from materials and energy is orbit, and it would produce so much energy that we could retire fossil fuels. Cheap energy is the key to improving life for all humans.
I do understand that it would take time, but I have a lot more patience than the eco-freaks do. They want an immediate end to fossil fuel usage, which is impossible.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on April 09, 2022, 10:35:51 am
I presume you're speaking of a geo stationary orbit configuration?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 09, 2022, 11:44:31 am
The energy beams down every single minute of every day, however, it doesn't have to be visible light.
Actually it sort of has to be visible or RF, as it has to be in the region of the spectrum that the atmosphere is most transparent to, or else the atmosphere absorbs too much!

Dams are not free to run, they come with a significant maintenance and monitoring budget, emit large amounts of methane as the water levels rise fall and have cycles of algal bloom.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on April 09, 2022, 11:55:57 am
Security would also be a concern. A hostile nation could destroy that system pretty easily without any loss of life but with a major impact on the energy grid if it it became the major source of energy.

I can just imagine China wiping out our solar collector while denying responsibility for it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 09, 2022, 12:18:40 pm
All the space faring nations are focussed on queuing up to setup permanent Moon bases, they all want access to Helium-3 resources to make fusion reactors a reality. Helium-3 accumulates in surface sediments as a result of the bombardment by cosmic rays, solar radiation and solar wind. At the moment for the test bed fusion reactors they harvest minute quantities helium-3 from conventional fission reactors. Think of the moon as a giant Helium-3 collector.

Why are they so keen for helium-3? Because Helium-3 is the only naturally occurring isotope that can be used as fuel in fusion reactors without producing radioactive by-products.

If they can't get enough helium-3 off the moon, they will construct specific types of fission reactors that are designed to generate(breed) helium-3 fuel for fusion reactors. There are a few different ways they can get to it via fission processes, one of them is using lithium, and if that pathway eventuates lithium batteries will be dead in the water as it will become a tightly controlled and expensive commodity much like normal helium is now. Normal helium is abundant in the universe, but rare on earth because it is so light it just floats away if not constrained!

Fusion reactors are like fission reactors, they get efficiency from scale, and once you get them running they are not easy to stop and start so you need to keep them running. It's likely that the best place to build one is next door to a desalination plant, steel or aluminium smelter so they have the 24x7 minimum demand meet. Australia was stupid not building nuclear plants next door to some of the myriad of desalination plants we are accumulating. Another nice industry to put in close vicinity is hydroponic agri-business that needs both heat and power to run 24x7.

Personally though, for agri-business I'd love to see Victoria make strong use of the low grade geothermal resource that exists in a band stretching between Bairnsdale and Ballarat. There is probably enough specific heat capacity to see Victoria feed all of Australia with greenhouse compatible crops all year round, consuming virtually none of the dairy critical land in the process. You won't get Federal funding for it though, because politics is mired in the Nationals farmers dig dirt mentality, that roots the bulk of the industry to Qld and WA. Politics and bureaucracy interfering in progress yet again.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 09, 2022, 01:30:01 pm
$2.8 billion for renewable energy, including the “clean coal” allocation.

Renewable energy amounted to 32.5% of electricity generated in 2021 so, even discounting the “clean coal” scam, taxpayers are shelling out more to keep the coal-fired power stations going.  Even with that significant assistance, energy companies are bailing out of coal plants because there’s no money to be made.
It's very difficult to debate those claims because the reall world figures are so hard to find, but those big dollar figures that talk about subsidies in the billion$ are pretty bogus.

I believe the inflated figures use the IMF/WTO definitions of a subsidy, which includes things like the emissions and energy consumed in traffic and traffic jams as a fossil fuel subsidy. Petrol and LPG are counted on top of oil and natural gas, but petrol and LPG are derived from natural gas and oil so that is artificially exacerbating the figure.

I went looking for real figures and it turns out it's quite hard to find. Even for literate economists like professors from ANU, Melbourne and Sydney Universities. The Unis were engage as a CRC to try and establish the true dollar$ in the energy debate, and after more than a year of research they all reported that most likely the real world subsidies totalled below $1B, in fact they reported the most likely value was less than $500M. They didn't agree on the figure, some claimed as low as $300M and others as high as $1B, but it was clear $10B was a fantasy.

I crossed checked this with someone I know who just so happens to be one of our Deputy Commissioners for Taxation, they really do have all the numbers. While they couldn't tell me the specific figures, they told me a good measure of the level of bullcrap was that "all industry and research subsidies" for the same period totalled just over $12B dollars, so the claims of $10B for just one segment of industry it seems is utter bullcrap!

Fwiw, it seems the UNs rock throwing at Australia uses the IMF/WTO definitions, and claims our derided "Clean Coal" R&D budget in total is more than what the Australian Tax Department claims is our countries entire Industry / Science subsidy spend!

My takeaway on all this is simply the bullcrap politics infiltrates on both sides of the debate, both sides lie through their teeth! It's interesting because it's the old debate about extremes of left or right being circular, if you go far enough to become an extremist in either direction you meet back in the middle.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on April 09, 2022, 01:56:59 pm
All the space faring nations are focussed on queuing up to setup permanent Moon bases, they all want access to Helium-3 resources to make fusion reactors a reality. Helium-3 accumulates in surface sediments as a result of the bombardment by cosmic rays, solar radiation and solar wind. 

For the time being ... only one nation is capable of that.  The United States, and they're miles in front.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 09, 2022, 02:07:49 pm
For the time being ... only one nation is capable of that.  The United States, and they're miles in front.
The other alternative is Elon Musk who seems to be doing his own thing and has some obsession about having folk live on Mars.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 09, 2022, 03:07:21 pm
For the time being ... only one nation is capable of that.  The United States, and they're miles in front.
I think you'll find China is pretty close and has the funds to do it, when we talk about a lunar base people should not be too obsessed with humans on the moon, it might well be robotic.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on April 09, 2022, 03:14:10 pm
The other alternative is Elon Musk who seems to be doing his own thing and has some obsession about having folk live on Mars.

He's gonna need something on the scale of a Saturn V EB, what with weight, consumables, and crew :)  And after innumerable unmanned landing missions dating back to 1976 which have exhibited nothing of special interest, Mars is not sustainable or worthy of the cost.  I'm afraid (courtesy of speed / time restrictions to other destinations) the moon is as far as we can get.  26,000 mph sounded impressive in 1968, but it's nothing compared to what we need.

 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 09, 2022, 03:21:28 pm
It's very difficult to debate those claims because the reall world figures are so hard to find, but those big dollar figures that talk about subsidies in the billion$ are pretty bogus.

I believe the inflated figures use the IMF/WTO definitions of a subsidy, which includes things like the emissions and energy consumed in traffic and traffic jams as a fossil fuel subsidy. Petrol and LPG are counted on top of oil and natural gas, but petrol and LPG are derived from natural gas and oil so that is artificially exacerbating the figure.

I went looking for real figures and it turns out it's quite hard to find. Even for literate economists like professors from ANU, Melbourne and Sydney Universities. The Unis were engage as a CRC to try and establish the true dollar$ in the energy debate, and after more than a year of research they all reported that most likely the real world subsidies totalled below $1B, in fact they reported the most likely value was less than $500M. They didn't agree on the figure, some claimed as low as $300M and others as high as $1B, but it was clear $10B was a fantasy.

I crossed checked this with someone I know who just so happens to be one of our Deputy Commissioners for Taxation, they really do have all the numbers. While they couldn't tell me the specific figures, they told me a good measure of the level of bullcrap was that "all industry and research subsidies" for the same period totalled just over $12B dollars, so the claims of $10B for just one segment of industry it seems is utter bullcrap!

Fwiw, it seems the UNs rock throwing at Australia uses the IMF/WTO definitions, and claims our derided "Clean Coal" R&D budget in total is more than what the Australian Tax Department claims is our countries entire Industry / Science subsidy spend!

My takeaway on all this is simply the bullcrap politics infiltrates on both sides of the debate, both sides lie through their teeth! It's interesting because it's the old debate about extremes of left or right being circular, if you go far enough to become an extremist in either direction you meet back in the middle.

The $10.3 billion fossil fuel subsidy is detailed in the Australia Institute research, fully footnoted and referenced:

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/viewer.html?pdfurl=https%3A%2F%2Faustraliainstitute.org.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F04%2FP1021-Fossil-fuel-subsidies-2020-21-Web.pdf&clen=1064959&chunk=true

The $2.8 billion renewable energy subsidy is an estimate by the Minerals Council of Australia and reported in the Financial Review.

https://www.afr.com/politics/renewable-energy-subsidies-to-top-28b-a-year-up-to-2030-20170313-guwo3t#:~:text=Renewable%20energy%20sources%20such%20as,Target%2C%20according%20to%20new%20research.





Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on April 09, 2022, 03:23:36 pm
I think you'll find China is pretty close and has the funds to do it, when we talk about a lunar base people should not be too obsessed with humans on the moon, it might well be robotic.

China's manned presence in space is limited to a small space station in earth orbit, certainly not the moon.  Robotic is a waste for what it can gather and return.  Ask the Russians.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 09, 2022, 05:14:21 pm
The other alternative is Elon Musk who seems to be doing his own thing and has some obsession about having folk live on Mars.

The only reason Mars gets a run is iron ore IMHO.  That's why its red. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on April 09, 2022, 07:14:31 pm
With over 50 billion metric tons of iron ore alone in Australia, I can't see Earth needing much from Mars :)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 09, 2022, 11:01:50 pm
The $10.3 billion fossil fuel subsidy is detailed in the Australia Institute research, fully footnoted and referenced:

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/viewer.html?pdfurl=https%3A%2F%2Faustraliainstitute.org.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F04%2FP1021-Fossil-fuel-subsidies-2020-21-Web.pdf&clen=1064959&chunk=true

The $2.8 billion renewable energy subsidy is an estimate by the Minerals Council of Australia and reported in the Financial Review.

https://www.afr.com/politics/renewable-energy-subsidies-to-top-28b-a-year-up-to-2030-20170313-guwo3t#:~:text=Renewable%20energy%20sources%20such%20as,Target%2C%20according%20to%20new%20research.
They're very generous definitions of what subsidies are, and where they come from, that vary subject to political or commercial allegiance.

People can believe what they like and then vote or invest accordingly.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on April 10, 2022, 04:03:49 pm
As Russia attacks Ukraine, experts weigh European "renaissance" for nuclear energy, Salon. (https://www.salon.com/2022/04/09/as-ukraine-experts-weigh-european-renaissance-for-nuclear-energy_partner/)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 14, 2022, 10:54:59 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/news/steven-seagal-tells-putin-allies-134237403.html

Steven Seagal letting his equally demented buddy Vlad the Invader know he is on his side....maybe he might volunteer and be parachuted into Ukraine and take on Ukraine single handed like one of his movies and save Vlads reputation.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on April 15, 2022, 10:00:20 am
Seagal has always been a weirdo. Love the way he tried to claim or insinuate he'd been muscle for the CIA or some such.

The topic of driverless cars came up a little while ago. Once driverless car has made the news over in the States:
Empty autonomous car pulled over by police, tries to flee, The Age. (https://www.drive.com.au/news/empty-autonomous-car-pulled-over-by-police-tries-to-flee/?utm_campaign=syndication&utm_source=smh.com.au&utm_content=article_2&utm_medium=partner)

The headline is a bit tongue in cheek. But how the hell does a car company spend millions on its driverless car program but someone forgets to tell the car it needs its headlights on at night?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on April 16, 2022, 06:55:27 am
As the 'Art of War' develops we see that previously very effective 'weapons' and tactics are often bypassed by new and more effective equipment or strategies.

Lines of troops in tightly packed formations would have been cut to pieces during WW1
Cavalry is another example and pretty much lost it's impact during WW1.
Trench warfare wouldn't have worked too well in WWW2

As the fighting in Ukraine has shown us. there are things you wouldn't want to be 'sitting in' during the next major conflict-

A: Tanks
B: Most surface warships
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 16, 2022, 08:26:31 am
As the fighting in Ukraine has shown us. there are things you wouldn't want to be 'sitting in' during the next major conflict-

A: Tanks
B: Most surface warships
I suspect the age of that hardware plays a role.
 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 16, 2022, 08:31:01 am
As the 'Art of War' develops we see that previously very effective 'weapons' and tactics are often bypassed by new and more effective equipment or strategies.

Lines of troops in tightly packed formations would have been cut to pieces during WW1
Cavalry is another example and pretty much lost it's impact during WW1.
Trench warfare wouldn't have worked too well in WWW2

As the fighting in Ukraine has shown us. there are things you wouldn't want to be 'sitting in' during the next major conflict-

A: Tanks
B: Most surface warships
Tanks need infantry support to prevent use of those portable anti tank weapons.
The Russian infantry has been very shy in battle and left the armoured vehicles exposed to the attacks on narrow roads with no room to manouvre.
What I find interesting is the use of drones both for observation and attack, warfare has become more hi tech and remote controlled.
Agree on Warships, slow and open to missile attacks.
The conservative nature of the Russian military has confused me, they have advanced stealth fighters/bombers but refused to risk them vs  Ukraine with it's old MIGs.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 16, 2022, 09:06:26 am
As the 'Art of War' develops we see that previously very effective 'weapons' and tactics are often bypassed by new and more effective equipment or strategies.

Lines of troops in tightly packed formations would have been cut to pieces during WW1
Cavalry is another example and pretty much lost it's impact during WW1.
Trench warfare wouldn't have worked too well in WWW2

As the fighting in Ukraine has shown us. there are things you wouldn't want to be 'sitting in' during the next major conflict-

A: Tanks
B: Most surface warships

These things in isolation are a problem.

However if fighting were raging modern surveillance would curtail the effectiveness of everything.  CCTV is also a factor here.

Its interesting.   We here about the odd thing Ukraine does and its celebrated as a major victory and the russians advancing on the midpoint of the nation and their capital is them having had an issue when its taken roughly a month to get there.  Im not an expert on these matters but its hardly the failure the news makes it out to be.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 16, 2022, 09:58:22 am
These things in isolation are a problem.

However if fighting were raging modern surveillance would curtail the effectiveness of everything.  CCTV is also a factor here.

Its interesting.   We here about the odd thing Ukraine does and its celebrated as a major victory and the russians advancing on the midpoint of the nation and their capital is them having had an issue when its taken roughly a month to get there.  Im not an expert on these matters but its hardly the failure the news makes it out to be.

There are a few ways to measure 'failure'. Firstly, Putin's expectation was that this incursion would be swift, Zelensky would have fled, and the Ukraine would now be his - failure. On another level, the human level, civilian suffering and death - failure, though Putin would easily justify this as the price of 'nobility.' Excessive Russian military personnel deaths - failure, though Putin would easily justify this as the price of 'nobility.' Hardship for Russian citizens from sanctions - failure, though Putin would rely on his state media spin to pull the wool over the eyes of his citizens.

So far about the only thing Putin has achieved, in the broader view, is to galvanize billions of global citizens against Russia and to be sympathetic toward the Ukraine. Failure. And to have raised Zelensky to hero status... that must gall him.

About the only thing Putin has succeeded at thus far is murder, rape, confusion and suffering.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on April 16, 2022, 10:42:28 am
Adding Sweden and Finland to NATO through Putin's actions (will happen in 2022) and you soon realise just how dumb this clown is.  32 countries and counting.  1200 aircraft alone in Sweden.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 16, 2022, 11:12:26 am
There are a few ways to measure 'failure'. Firstly, Putin's expectation was that this incursion would be swift, Zelensky would have fled, and the Ukraine would now be his - failure. On another level, the human level, civilian suffering and death - failure, though Putin would easily justify this as the price of 'nobility.' Excessive Russian military personnel deaths - failure, though Putin would easily justify this as the price of 'nobility.' Hardship for Russian citizens from sanctions - failure, though Putin would rely on his state media spin to pull the wool over the eyes of his citizens.

So far about the only thing Putin has achieved, in the broader view, is to galvanize billions of global citizens against Russia and to be sympathetic toward the Ukraine. Failure. And to have raised Zelensky to hero status... that must gall him.

About the only thing Putin has succeeded at thus far is murder, rape, confusion and suffering.

Are you sure thats what putin was thinking?

Some people have become mind readers.  If he wanted a swift victory, I suspect he might have sent in a scorched earth policy rather than the tinker round the edges approach they have employed until now.

The innocent people of all nations are the first and major casualties of any war but I find the mindset of "neutral observers" fascinating when they champion efforts that they look at through the lens of bad guys vs good guys.

Oh and when it comes to Ukraine, the russians consider this a civil matter rather than a war between two nations which speaks for why they aren't just killing at will and scorching the earth.


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 16, 2022, 11:59:45 am
The modern Howitzers and other self-propelled gun platforms that are not just ballistic will change the conflict, Russia will have to get more of it's elite airforce involved or revert to troops on the ground. These laser guided self-propelled weapons can take out tanks and other fortifications from ranges at least 30km away, with extended range ammo they can be 60km away. I read somewhere a while back the latest variants can fire 4 rounds a minute all individually targeted, travel at 90kph and can be firing within 90s of stopping.

Just to give you an idea of what a range of 30km to 60km means, out in the middle of nowhere like the Nullarbor Plain your visible horizon standing at an eye height of 1.8m is about 5km!

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 16, 2022, 12:11:31 pm
Are you sure thats what putin was thinking? According to his quoted generals, yes. Along with military strategists who've served in war zones. Russians who've spoke of what Putin is thinking are unanimous in their opinion that he is attempting to rebuild 'old Russia'. The break-up of the USSR galled him and still does. Odour of Adolph, eh! Like many similar leaders he's sees himself (likely) as a saviour. And his ego would want a heroic legacy.

Some people have become mind readers. If you're having a go at me, then you are wrong. See above. If there was anything I learned in the military, and serving in a war zone it was to research and learn from those who came before me on how to read a conflict through a thorough understanding of your enemy (Ss&ws) and an honest appraisal of your own Ss&Ws). If he wanted a swift victory, I suspect he might have sent in a scorched earth policy rather than the tinker round the edges approach they have employed until now. Putin has already acknowledged the incompetence of his military. And never underestimate arrogance and the perspective/thinking of a former KGB leader. He saw himself as a liberator with considerable support (and welcoming arms) from E Ukraine. Got that very wrong.

The innocent people of all nations are the first and major casualties of any war but I find the mindset of "neutral observers" fascinating when they champion efforts that they look at through the lens of bad guys vs good guys. As has been quoted before, the first casualty of war is truth, and then the sanctity of life, which becomes a myth in a war zone. On a personal note, the very first reality that hit me very strongly when I found myself in a war zone at the tender age of 17 was just how worthless my life was.

Oh and when it comes to Ukraine, the russians consider this a civil matter rather than a war between two nations which speaks for why they aren't just killing at will and scorching the earth. Doesn't matter whether it is regarded by Russia as a civil matter or not... humans are being murdered and raped. That's all that is important. Excuses/reasons are meaningless.



Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 16, 2022, 12:18:27 pm
I think it's all about money and Putin's billionaire mates.

They want control of EU Energy, because the income from the old world fossil fuels are diminishing and modern nuclear taking a bigger chunk of the low / zero carbon market is inevitable.

The rest is perhaps spin to motivate the troops, offering reasoning that perhaps make the foot soldiers believe they'll be better off by families having a chance at a slice of the pie.

I can't drop the idea that I'd heard more than once that Russia was effectively bankrupt before this all started.

That sunken ship no doubt took many lives with it, we may never know the toll, but it's not a surprise that 50s / 60s era based design / tech is easily disposed of in modern warfare, as good as the old giants might be as long range weapons platforms for strategic operations and self-defence they just aren't mobile enough in littoral operations. I believe Russia took it out of mothballs 20 years ago after about a decade on the rubbish pile, somewhat ironically it was built by Ukraine in the 70s! Two or three two bob drones can hover at a couple of thousand feet and put eyes on this thing from 10km or 20km away and triangulate it's position with pin point precision. The old gear is almost defenceless against such an attack!

As for the Russian bullcrap, they spent days telling everyone it was an onboard accident, then after a couple of days they started spruiking revenge for Ukraine sinking their ship, it shows you just how poorly the campaign is managed!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 16, 2022, 01:46:26 pm
These things in isolation are a problem.

However if fighting were raging modern surveillance would curtail the effectiveness of everything.  CCTV is also a factor here.

Its interesting.   We here about the odd thing Ukraine does and its celebrated as a major victory and the russians advancing on the midpoint of the nation and their capital is them having had an issue when its taken roughly a month to get there.  Im not an expert on these matters but its hardly the failure the news makes it out to be.

In the context of Russia’s overwhelming troop, tank, artillery, missile and naval forces and air superiority, it is a catastrophic failure.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 16, 2022, 02:01:23 pm
In the context of Russia’s overwhelming troop, tank, artillery, missile and naval forces and air superiority, it is a catastrophic failure.
Yes, I can't see it any other way, no leader is stupid enough to butcher his pawns and rooks, he is priming his own society for another revolution because sooner or later the truth emerges, and he would be among the first against the wall!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 16, 2022, 02:06:33 pm
As the 'Art of War' develops we see that previously very effective 'weapons' and tactics are often bypassed by new and more effective equipment or strategies.

Lines of troops in tightly packed formations would have been cut to pieces during WW1
Cavalry is another example and pretty much lost it's impact during WW1.
Trench warfare wouldn't have worked too well in WWW2

As the fighting in Ukraine has shown us. there are things you wouldn't want to be 'sitting in' during the next major conflict-

A: Tanks
B: Most surface warships

It depends on the tanks Lods.  State of the art tanks, like our Abrams and most NATO tanks, have sophisticated anti-missile systems.  Most Russian tanks rely on explosive-reactive armour and that isn’t effective against smart missiles.  Of course, a brave person with a Molotov cocktail and a lot of luck can still take out a modern tank.

It’s much the same with ships; those with state of the art weapons systems should be relatively immune from missile strike.

Moskva is over 40 years old and, while it will have been upgraded, would still have had analog systems.

The closest thing we have to the Moskva are our three guided missile destroyers, all of which were commissioned within the last 4-5 years.

I suppose one factor Putin’s strategists got wrong was how quickly the West would re-arm Ukraine with sophisticated weapons systems.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 16, 2022, 02:10:34 pm
Maybe Ukraine isn't the war Putin is waiting for, personally I can't see that to be the case, because wouldn't be an even bigger mistake to take on the EU and it's Allies, especially if Russia is bust?

fwiw, a left field question, where does the OECD sit in this war, and how does that relate to the OPEC position?

Is it totally wrong to assume that some of Putin's obvious Allies might not be?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 16, 2022, 10:46:20 pm
Maybe Ukraine isn't the war Putin is waiting for, personally I can't see that to be the case, because wouldn't be an even bigger mistake to take on the EU and it's Allies, especially if Russia is bust?

fwiw, a left field question, where does the OECD sit in this war, and how does that relate to the OPEC position?

Is it totally wrong to assume that some of Putin's obvious Allies might not be?
Putin would have an interest in Moldova and already has a foot in the door with Transnistria which is a non recognised
State which really is a Russian outpost on a strip of land annexed from Moldova with about 1000 Russian troops stationed there. Moldova is a hole of a country apart from it's charasmatic female president but borders Romania which is a important part of Nato's defensive setup.
Moldova is not part of NATO or the EU and unlike Ukraine doesn't have a strong military and would be an easy target if Putin can take Ukraine.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 16, 2022, 11:35:23 pm
Maybe Ukraine isn't the war Putin is waiting for, personally I can't see that to be the case, because wouldn't be an even bigger mistake to take on the EU and it's Allies, especially if Russia is bust?

fwiw, a left field question, where does the OECD sit in this war, and how does that relate to the OPEC position?

Is it totally wrong to assume that some of Putin's obvious Allies might not be?

OECD suspended Russia and Belarus in February and committed to assist with Ukraine's recovery.

Russia isn't a member of OPEC and has been at loggerheads with some OPEC nations, particularly Saudi Arabia, quite often in the recent past.  However, several OPEC nations are within Russia's sphere of influence and are resisting calls to lift production and reduce dependence on Russian oil.  It is expected that oil production and access to reserves will ease pressure on oil prices this month.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 17, 2022, 08:22:38 am
In the context of Russia’s overwhelming troop, tank, artillery, missile and naval forces and air superiority, it is a catastrophic failure.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Afghanistan

20 years later we didn't hear about any of it being a failure 2 months in.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 17, 2022, 09:43:14 am
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Afghanistan

20 years later we didn't hear about any of it being a failure 2 months in.
I'm not sure the comparison is valid.

I suppose we could argue casualties in Allied forces in Afghanistan / Iraq, even though always too many, were pretty low by comparison. I don't recall swatches of Allied commanders being caught or killed, nor do I remember the Allies sending conscripts to their death by the hundreds or thousands in the early stages. If we want to use the Afghan / Iraq scenario as a comparison, in Putin's case the early rate of casualty and leadership loss seems unsustainable.

Despite the claims in some media segments, I do not specifically recall the Allies deliberately targeting operational hospitals, civilian apartment blocks or civilian train and bus transport, or flattening whole residential suburbs for no apparent good reason. Nor do I recall the Allies directly or indirectly threatening the use of chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, or bombing / shelling nuclear power facilities in Iraq.

I note that many of the Allied casualties in Iraq / Afghan were delivered courtesy of Putin supplied munitions.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 17, 2022, 10:41:06 am
Russia are also occupied in Syria where they are propping up the Assad Government and bombing rebels and the odd hospital and civilian targets.
They have been there since 2015 and I guess Oil is at the core of their interest and denying the USA any chance to influence outcomes in that area.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 17, 2022, 11:02:36 am
I'm not sure the comparison is valid.

I suppose we could argue casualties in Allied forces in Afghanistan / Iraq, even though always too many, were pretty low by comparison. I don't recall swatches of Allied commanders being caught or killed, nor do I remember the Allies sending conscripts to their death by the hundreds or thousands in the early stages. If we want to use the Afghan / Iraq scenario as a comparison, in Putin's case the early rate of casualty and leadership loss seems unsustainable.

Despite the claims in some media segments, I do not specifically recall the Allies deliberately targeting operational hospitals, civilian apartment blocks or civilian train and bus transport, or flattening whole residential suburbs for no apparent good reason. Nor do I recall the Allies directly or indirectly threatening the use of chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, or bombing / shelling nuclear power facilities in Iraq.

I note that many of the Allied casualties in Iraq / Afghan were delivered courtesy of Putin supplied munitions.

LP its not about comparing outcomes or even circumstances.   War is bloody and merciless and you can guarantee that war crimes were committed you just never heard about them.

One of our most decorated is only on trial now.

That was also an allied war.  USA with great Britain involved against what was in essence a bunch of camel herders.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 17, 2022, 11:51:35 am
That was also an allied war.  USA with great Britain involved against what was in essence a bunch of camel herders.
Camel herders with Kalashnikovs and RPGs.

It's interesting, the current Russian predicament is basically a function of the Russian lack of foot soldiers and special forces supporting the Calvary. You can't target foot soldiers with Howitzers and Drones, it doesn't work they are too small and too quick to disperse.

When exposed we put our own war criminals on trial, they won't have to be hunted down by foreign forces.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 17, 2022, 05:24:30 pm
It still took 20 years and despite the change of government Afghanistan wound up exactly where they started though with the Taliban government in place.

The point being there are no good guys and bad guys.  Just a bunch of nations pushing their interests using small nations as pawns. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 17, 2022, 07:29:36 pm
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Afghanistan

20 years later we didn't hear about any of it being a failure 2 months in.

Comparing apples with eggs Thry.

The invasion of Iraq is probably closer but the Iraqi armed forces were larger and better equipped than Ukraine’s.  The significant difference is that Saddam’s forces weren’t re-equipped with sophisticated weaponry but resistance had completely collapsed before that could happen anyway.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 24, 2022, 03:04:38 pm
Putin has upped the stakes in Ukraine by introducing his ace in the pack nuclear weapon the Sarmat 2, with its high tech defense decoy system its difficult to intercept and Vlad seems to be wanting to deploy it soon so he can have some leverage over NATO and get the Ukraine war back on his terms. Been reports of Vlad suffering from Parkinsons and other health issues, if I was the west I'd be assisting the internal Russian opposition and military who dont want this war escalating to remove Vlad before he decides he has been backed into a corner and has nothing to lose. Think he put the brakes on one of his kids leaving Russia so i reckon he might be light on for supportive family and friends and lunatics with nothing to lose or care about become extra dangerous.

https://au.yahoo.com/news/russia-warns-deploy-satan-2-220805858.html
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on April 24, 2022, 04:31:41 pm
And we now see the folly in the EUs use of Russian energy.  Average prices in the UK expected to hit $6000 per annum sometime in 2022. 

 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 28, 2022, 03:59:06 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/russian-tv-hosts-bleak-nuclear-war-prediction-011905108.html

The Iron Doll is one scary woman, be good value for our AFLW team with that evil stare......
I thought Putin was the only nutter in Russia who wanted war but that 60 minutes crew with their ideas on WW3 and heaven etc  show how delusional the thinking is in Russia and that old style cold war propaganda is alive and well.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on April 28, 2022, 04:24:23 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHylQRVN2Qs

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 28, 2022, 05:02:42 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHylQRVN2Qs


Vlads eldest daughter Maria who is a Doctor tried to do a runner under the pretense of a holiday with her partner but Putin put a stop to her leaving as it was feared she was trying exit Russia and not come back so I'm not so sure how much he loves his kids like Sting hoped, and wants them all with him in Russia win lose or draw.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on April 28, 2022, 05:55:45 pm
Yep, read about that ... reminds me of the t shirt I saw one day many years and the writing on the front was;

"If you love someone, set them free. If they don't come back, hunt them down and kill them"


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 28, 2022, 06:01:55 pm
Yep, read about that ... reminds me of the t shirt I saw one day many years and the writing on the front was;

"If you love someone, set them free. If they don't come back, hunt them down and kill them"



That T shirt was probably from the KGB fashion label......
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on April 28, 2022, 06:06:55 pm
Nice work :)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 01, 2022, 10:40:00 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxJHecyYBno

Some foresight from the makers of this video identifying Russia as the instigator, not sure of the accuracy of the data and obviously that data has changed but not for the better.
Scary no matter where you live....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 01, 2022, 11:33:55 pm
it might shut up the global warmists :)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: shawny on May 02, 2022, 12:03:27 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxJHecyYBno

Some foresight from the makers of this video identifying Russia as the instigator, not sure of the accuracy of the data and obviously that data has changed but not for the better.
Scary no matter where you live....

That is scary crap EB. Can only hope and pray this doesn’t eventuate as no one wins if they go down that path. Never understood why any nation needs to have these sorts of weapons.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 02, 2022, 07:59:47 pm
it might shut up the global warmists :)
Oh the globe will get warm alright (initially at least).
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 04, 2022, 10:22:09 am
Putin to have cancer surgery and has handed temporary power to his intelligence chief Nikolai Patrushev who is a complete nutter and the one who urged Putin to invade Ukraine and comes with a reputation for cunning and aggressive ambitions for Russia and himself.
Reckon the level of danger has just increased now with Putin with not much to lose and his lunatic mate now running the show..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 04, 2022, 10:51:30 am
More soviet pi55 and wind.  If the Ukraine invasion idea was his, it's obvious he's a monumental f'wit.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 04, 2022, 12:10:01 pm
Putin to have cancer surgery and has handed temporary power to his intelligence chief Nikolai Patrushev who is a complete nutter and the one who urged Putin to invade Ukraine and comes with a reputation for cunning and aggressive ambitions for Russia and himself.
Reckon the level of danger has just increased now with Putin with not much to lose and his lunatic mate now running the show..
It's not hard to see why Putin and Trump get along so well,

"It wasn't me, I wasn't even there!"
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 04, 2022, 12:21:49 pm
Pelosi and Schiff say "hi"
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 04, 2022, 12:36:07 pm
In Conservative circles what is Teal, and what is Blue?

It's an interesting debate going on around conservative circles. The Blue incumbents want to paint the Teal as some sort of new movement, I'm not even sure what Teal means, but we need to kept in mind what does Blue mean anymore, is Blue the same or has it changed?

I think the Teal conservative movement could easily claim the classic Liberal Blue is no longer blue, just because colour hasn't changed doesn't mean the ideology hasn't been hijacked by infusion of right leaning fundamentalists. The devil seems to hide in the Scomo, Perrottet and Deves shade of Blue. In fact if that assertion is true you could even claim that Blue is even more insidious than Teal, using populist issues to forward a far more radical agenda!

As far as I can tell, Teal is the one that is more traditional, Liberal with a hint of Nationals, farmers farm, food comes from down the road or interstate, but not imported from China, Brazil or some other overseas destination. In this regard Teal has a slightly greener bent than Blue, did I get it, am I correct?

FWIW, the very same debate applies to Red, maybe it's in need of some Maroon before we all march under a Red flag!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 04, 2022, 08:54:44 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/news/russian-state-tv-threatens-sink-uk-with-nuclear-bombs-bizarre-video-093226344.html
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 04, 2022, 09:13:02 pm
Madder by the minute @ElwoodBlues1
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 04, 2022, 09:30:26 pm
Madder by the minute @ElwoodBlues1
Yep ...surely there is someone in the Russian Military with some common sense who can influence Putins national guard(his version of the SS) to remove him and assume control and get rid of these propaganda nutters before something really bad happens.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 04, 2022, 09:31:09 pm
Yep ...surely there is someone in the Russian Military with some common sense who can influence Putins national guard(his version of the SS) to remove him and assume control and get rid of these propaganda nutters before something really bad happens.
Its only a matter of time EB.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 04, 2022, 09:35:43 pm
Its only a matter of time EB.
You would hope so GTC, with Putin unwell now this is the time to do it before his lunatic mate who is caretaking the country does
something the whole world will have to live and deal with. Those Sarmat 2 nukes are meant to have decoys and diversion tech that makes it nearly impossible to bring down so once launched its too late for the target city/country.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 04, 2022, 09:50:20 pm
KimJ feeling left out as their is a glut of dictators flexing their muscle so he has to join in...

https://au.news.yahoo.com/kim-jong-uns-chilling-nuclear-threat-to-the-world-072945302.html
Him and his nutcase sister must be missing the attention now Vlad and Xi have been growing their Armies and Equipment.
Good think about Nth Korea is they are more likely to nuke themselves before they hit a target anywhere else..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 04, 2022, 10:49:28 pm
Given there's sweet bugger all of the NK military left over from the Korean war, I wonder how his "new" generals accrued all those tunic awards and medals?   Cleaning Kim's toilet?

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 05, 2022, 01:55:24 pm
Just finished reading about one of my pet peeves, people who complain about beach or coastal erosion, or just about any other natural change to the surf or coastline.

Beaches and coastlines never stop changing, the ones that change slowly beyond a human lifetime are the rocky exceptions. As hard as it may be, if you buy a house too close to the sandy shoreline it's going to change one way or the other. If you are lucky the beach will get wider, maybe then they will complain about the long walk, if you are not lucky then before long the waves will be lapping at your front door or your front porch will be falling into the sea. It's called geology.

It's not global warming, shipping traffic, abalone thieves or dogs crapping on the beach, it's just mother nature at work as usual. Nothing we do with carbon emissions, solar power, hydrogen trucks, banning shipping, saving the whales or blocking wind farms will change the fact it will change. In the vast majority of cases it is what it is, it'll change someway or another!

It's analogous to people who buy next door to an airport then spend the rest of their residency complaining about the aircraft noise to councils and politicians.

Why the feck should the rest of society be taxed million$ or billion$ for remedial action just because somebody got a cheap deal on a seafront property without thinking it through!  >:(
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 05, 2022, 01:59:58 pm
Given there's sweet bugger all of the NK military left over from the Korean war, I wonder how his "new" generals accrued all those tunic awards and medals?  Cleaning Kim's toilet?
Every time a colleagued gets offed by Mini Me the surviving staff get a still kicking medal, they have a lot more than they can actually wear! :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on May 05, 2022, 03:01:48 pm
The then Defence Minister was killed by anti-aircraft gunfire in 2015, though. In his case, he was apparently tied up, dumped on a military firing range and blown to smithereens by anti-aircraft fire. He had apparently fallen asleep during a speech by Kim-Jong-Un.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 05, 2022, 03:43:05 pm
The then Defence Minister was killed by anti-aircraft gunfire in 2015, though. In his case, he was apparently tied up, dumped on a military firing range and blown to smithereens by anti-aircraft fire. He had apparently fallen asleep during a speech by Kim-Jong-Un.
Thought the rumour was that KimJ was the one operating the anti-aircraft gun.......
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 05, 2022, 05:14:06 pm
Every time a colleagued gets offed by Mini Me the surviving staff get a still kicking medal, they have a lot more than they can actually wear! :o

If one could be bothered ....

1. Attentiveness Award—this award is for listening to the Supreme Leader for numerous hours. Failure to stay awake can lead to death.

2. North Korean Competence Award—this award in for appearing capable in performing your duties. Failure to appear competent can lead to death.

3. Partners in Peace Award—this popular award is given to those who had any contact with Denis Rodman while he was in North Korea during several trips.

4. North Korean Brazen Bull Award—this award is for general officers who have expressed interest and zeal for the Chicago Bulls (see above).

5. Kim Jong-II Choo-Choo Award—This award was for senior officers that accompanied him on train trips as he had a fear of flying and refused to fly. 

6. The Brilliant Leader Worship Award—Kim Jung-un is referred to as the Brilliant Leader and surrounds himself with a large litany of yes-men dedicated to boosting his ego. Those who come up with the most creative compliments and praises are able to win this award. Sometimes called the “Whose Your Daddy Award” but very coveted.

7. Supreme Gulag Award—officers affiliated with the countries massive gulag system where 200,000 North Koreans are imprisoned for dissent, etc. are eligible for this award.

8. Amazing Execution Award—this little known award is given to military officers who come up with interesting and creative ways to execute North Koreans. It has also been awarded to those who participate in these bizarre executions.

9. Eating Well Award—this award is for securing better rations than the rank and file soldiers. This award is awarded for every three years of prosperity in food consumption while the remainder of the military forces starve.

10. Heavenly Cow Award—this award was for all military officers that would also partake of Kim Jung-II’s favorite meat, the donkey. Also referred to as “Jackass Tu” award.

11. It's a Family Affair Award--this award is for family members only who can survive his wrath. For example, his uncle, Jang Song Thaek, who was second-in-command was found guilty of “attempting to overthrow the state.” And so, if reports are to be believed, Kim Jong-un had him executed. His uncle was apparently first stripped naked and then thrown into a cage of ravenous dogs that finished the human off.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on May 05, 2022, 06:16:00 pm
Just finished reading about one of my pet peeves, people who complain about beach or coastal erosion, or just about any other natural change to the surf or coastline.

Beaches and coastlines never stop changing, the ones that change slowly beyond a human lifetime are the rocky exceptions. As hard as it may be, if you buy a house too close to the sandy shoreline it's going to change one way or the other. If you are lucky the beach will get wider, maybe then they will complain about the long walk, if you are not lucky then before long the waves will be lapping at your front door or your front porch will be falling into the sea. It's called geology.

It's not global warming, shipping traffic, abalone thieves or dogs crapping on the beach, it's just mother nature at work as usual. Nothing we do with carbon emissions, solar power, hydrogen trucks, banning shipping, saving the whales or blocking wind farms will change the fact it will change. In the vast majority of cases it is what it is, it'll change someway or another!

It's analogous to people who buy next door to an airport then spend the rest of their residency complaining about the aircraft noise to councils and politicians.

Why the feck should the rest of society be taxed million$ or billion$ for remedial action just because somebody got a cheap deal on a seafront property without thinking it through!  >:(

People realise where the sand came from to begin with yeah?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 06, 2022, 01:27:44 pm
Biden has replaced the WASP Jen Psaki with a LGBQTI Karine Jean-Pierre, hate him or like him Biden isn't afraid to make brave decisions in front of the largely still prejudice American public.

I have to applauded the departing Psaki for not taking a back step and raising the standards of the White House Press core machine.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 06, 2022, 02:17:35 pm
Biden has replaced the WASP Jen Psaki with a LGBQTI Karine Jean-Pierre, hate him or like him Biden isn't afraid to make brave decisions in front of the largely still prejudice American public.

I have to applauded the departing Psaki for not taking a back step and raising the standards of the White House Press core machine.

Biden is a marionette.  He doesn't make decisions, the sheila squad make them for him. 
And they'll lose 65 house seats minimum in a few months time ...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 06, 2022, 02:33:13 pm
Biden is a marionette.  He doesn't make decisions, the sheila squad make them for him. 
And they'll lose 65 house seats minimum in a few months time ...
There's a prediction!
 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 06, 2022, 02:50:38 pm
There's a prediction!


Obama, (approval rating of 45% in 2010) got a midterm shellacking losing 64 seats.  Biden's in the 30s ...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 10, 2022, 07:15:28 am
FMD, reading about Nick Cave's family, what is it about these artistic types that seems to flow into tragedy as life / art?

Very sad indeed!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 12, 2022, 10:59:28 am
Some horror stories coming out of friends who have returned to international travel, not sure it makes much sense to get on board this stuff so early. At least two friends have arrived at their destinations, Denpasar and Suva minus their luggage. The claim is the passenger bags are getting offloaded to secure slots for urgent freight that would otherwise normally be travelling via DHL or Fedex, but the China situation is causing chaos right across SE Asia, and it's only just getting started. I've had my own baggage travel on a different flight more than once, but on all except one occasion it actually arrived before I did, the time it didn't it turned up the next day. But I suspect things are very different at the moment!

An associate from Shanghai said it looked like you could basically walk to Japan from the mainland by hopping from ship to ship, ships anchored as far as you can see over the horizon.

(https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5082.0;attach=1270)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 14, 2022, 08:51:53 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/news/putin-very-ill-blood-cancer-070511940.html

Vlad on the ropes with his health just as Finland and possibly Sweden want to join NATO.
Sanna Marin the Finnish nightclubbing female President wants into NATO as soon as possible which might push Vlad to something extreme, be interesting if the Russian Oligarchs decide enough is enough and end Vlads reign sooner than later..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 14, 2022, 09:25:45 pm
Pukin at the thought :)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 20, 2022, 01:00:59 pm
Coles giving 10 days gender affirmation leave now...same company were happy to sack unvaccinated staff but find it's ok to give leave for sexual lifestyle alterations/treatments.
I must be getting old, confused and out of touch with modern society and what's important...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on May 20, 2022, 04:03:46 pm
Coles giving 10 days gender affirmation leave now...same company were happy to sack unvaccinated staff but find it's ok to give leave for sexual lifestyle alterations/treatments.
I must be getting old, confused and out of touch with modern society and what's important...

optics
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on May 20, 2022, 04:10:19 pm
Coles giving 10 days gender affirmation leave now...same company were happy to sack unvaccinated staff but find it's ok to give leave for sexual lifestyle alterations/treatments.
I must be getting old, confused and out of touch with modern society and what's important...


I dont get it either EB1.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 20, 2022, 04:24:30 pm
optics
Now you see it , in ten days time now you dont...?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on May 20, 2022, 05:17:33 pm
Now you see it , in ten days time now you dont...?
The good publicity this brings them, and the recruiting boom it will give them by comparison to woolies, will pay for those 10 days many times over.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 20, 2022, 06:30:27 pm
The good publicity this brings them, and the recruiting boom it will give them by comparison to woolies, will pay for those 10 days many times over.
Point taken on the PR to members of the community who embrace those lifestyle choices and I agree employees requiring that type of support will be keen on Coles as an employer. I wonder what it will do for other Coles employees though who may have other issues and cant access that type of special leave?
Have no doubt Woolies and Metcash who own stores of IGA brand will follow Coles lead.....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on May 20, 2022, 07:33:42 pm
Point taken on the PR to members of the community who embrace those lifestyle choices and I agree employees requiring that type of support will be keen on Coles as an employer. I wonder what it will do for other Coles employees though who may have other issues and cant access that type of special leave?
Have no doubt Woolies and Metcash who own stores of IGA brand will follow Coles lead.....
Announcing the leave is one thing. Taking it is another. How many people will actually qualify for it? How many of them will actually know about it 1 year from now when the whole thing is old news. Chances are its only for full time workers. Full time workers probably make (at most) 50% of their workforce.....and a lot of them are people who have been there for a decade or more and don't really fit the criteria.

Its like announcing special days for full time albino workers. Sure, its good optics and is progressive, but how many people does it actually apply too?

Will the others follow? Probably, but the damage is done. Coles have got all the headlines and did all the groundwork. They reap the good publicity.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 24, 2022, 11:43:25 am
Reports of several assassination attempts on Putin in the paper with reports the weak prick is running scared surrounding himself with elite snipers. Hey Vlad, a couple of tips. The saying keep your friends close and your enemies closer doesn't apply here. Sleep with one eye open sunshine, its coming.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 24, 2022, 04:45:57 pm
Reports of several assassination attempts on Putin in the paper with reports the weak prick is running scared surrounding himself with elite snipers. Hey Vlad, a couple of tips. The saying keep your friends close and your enemies closer doesn't apply here. Sleep with one eye open sunshine, its coming.
I think his days are numbered due to health issues, his Oligarch mates who are losing their toy boats and lots of rubels are his main threat IMO to pay for someone brave enough to take him out. He has decent protection with the Rosgvardiya which are Putins SS led by his crazy loyal mate Zolotov so you would need to knock him off too imo. The Military are laced with counter intelligence officers so you are taking a big risk planning anything against him as failure would mean your family being wiped off the map similar to how Kim Jong operates vs his enemies.
Maybe his army of doctors who he has following him around with a few rubels heading their way can slip him something a bit stronger. Of course the worry is with him that if you fail he might decide to push the button and take us all with him if he feels he has no support at all even at home...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 25, 2022, 10:57:43 am
I don't get why people / parents feel the need to remain stoic in the light of events like today's shooting in Texas, they should feel free to weep openly and hopefully drown the NRA in the tears of mothers who have lost their children!

This stoicism needs to be be banished, replaced with tears and then fury against those mask oppression in a veneer of freedom as does the NRA!

The right to walk safely down the street is a freedom.
The right to be safe going to school or work is a freedom.
The right to own a weapon is not, and the right to kill people with that weapon is not!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 25, 2022, 11:11:18 am
The right own a weapon is not

The US Constitution says otherwise.  But it should.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on May 25, 2022, 11:13:32 am
While my heart goes out to the parents who've lost children and the family of the teacher who was killed, I couldn't care less about expressing solidarity with Americans. This is an endless cycle: school and mass shootings followed by thoughts and prayers and nothing else. They should treat these murder victims as martyrs to the cause of arming everyone to the teeth. And their deaths will be a boon for gun manufacturers. Whenever there's any call for restrictions on gun ownership, sales go through the roof as "concerned citizens" make sure they get their hands on them before any laws come in. Not that they should be afraid: no laws will be passed and SCOTUS will strike down those that do. After a short while, the NRA will use the shootings as a call to arms: arm teachers with guns and the only way to deal with a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on May 25, 2022, 11:23:37 am
The US Constitution says otherwise.  But it should.
No, the Constitution protects the right of militias to bear arms. There was no need to interpret that as guaranteeing the right of an individual to buy a gun. Earlier rulings that interpreted the right more narrowly were overturned by conservative justices on the Supreme Court. SCOTUS is and will always be a political animal. Unfortunately, Democrats have been asleep at the wheel when it comes to ensuring the court isn't packed with right-wing hacks. Hillary warned Democrats to turn out to vote to protect constitutional rights. That should have been obvious to anyone with a brain cell given that McConnell had blocked Merrick Garland's nomination for a vacant seat on SCOTUS. The election was going to decide whether the balance between left and right wing justices would continue or Trump would get a chance to tilt the Court in favour of right-wing causes. But even though she won the popular vote, she bled votes from short-sighted Bernie Bros and other progressives who thought it was more important to manoevre for control of the Democratic Party. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 25, 2022, 11:29:50 am
While the issue is politicised nobody can win, it's time for average American to rise up and say enough is enough. They should protest against the NRA in the streets by their millions in much the same way the fluffer nutters protested against the election!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 25, 2022, 11:49:45 am
One viewing of doomsday preppers should throw fears into many. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on May 25, 2022, 12:07:26 pm
I read an interesting article a while back about the doomsday preppers being less of a monoculture than you'd imagine. The type of doomsday prepper we see on TV is at the more macho end of the spectrum. They're the guys who are all about securing resources and being prepared to repel the hordes who might want to steal them when the apocalypse comes. Guns take pride of place for those guys. But on 4Chan, there are more female-oriented doomsday prepper threads which are more about how to preserve social networks if the worst eventuates. Those who post on those threads are more interested in making sure they can grow their food and share that knowledge (and initially the produce) with neighbours in times of need. They also discuss what books and films they should preserve, how to make their own female hygience products and contraceptives and the like as well as preserving what they'll need to teach their children.

Post-apocalyptic shows tend to swing between these 2 ends of the spectrum. On Walking Dead, there'll be idyllic communities which are more like hippie communes but then they'll be overrun by Mad Max types who rape and pillage.  
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 25, 2022, 12:21:14 pm
Post-apocalyptic shows tend to swing between these 2 ends of the spectrum. On Walking Dead, there'll be idyllic communities which are more like hippie communes but then they'll be overrun by Mad Max types who rape and pillage.
Do you think the Interweb might have "borrowed" this concept from H.G. Wells, it seems to be a bit Eloi versus Morlocks?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 25, 2022, 12:47:42 pm
While my heart goes out to the parents who've lost children and the family of the teacher who was killed, I couldn't care less about expressing solidarity with Americans. This is an endless cycle: school and mass shootings followed by thoughts and prayers and nothing else. They should treat these murder victims as martyrs to the cause of arming everyone to the teeth. And their deaths will be a boon for gun manufacturers. Whenever there's any call for restrictions on gun ownership, sales go through the roof as "concerned citizens" make sure they get their hands on them before any laws come in. Not that they should be afraid: no laws will be passed and SCOTUS will strike down those that do. After a short while, the NRA will use the shootings as a call to arms: arm teachers with guns and the only way to deal with a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun.
How much longer can a nation burry their heads in the sand and not address gun reform once and for all.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on May 25, 2022, 02:13:09 pm
Indefinitely, unfortunately.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on May 25, 2022, 03:15:09 pm
How much longer can a nation burry their heads in the sand and not address gun reform once and for all.
I heard a snippet on the radio before.

I believe it was Biden who was talking about tighter gun control needs to come in after the recent events.

Obama said similar and was quickly put back in his box by the NRA, lets see if the same happens to Biden.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on May 25, 2022, 06:33:21 pm
Just like clockwork: Top Texas Republicans Call For More Guns, Fortified Schools, Armed Teachers After Attack, Huffpost. (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/texas-republicans-armed-teachers_n_628dc1d9e4b0933e736c4979)

I think every student and every teacher should be required to carry guns. Even a 4 year old should carry one. And just for good measure, we should ensure a cop with an anger management problem and several guns is assigned to every school .
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 25, 2022, 06:35:59 pm
Indefinitely, unfortunately.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5x4eHn_3tA
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 25, 2022, 08:32:15 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5x4eHn_3tA
Decent bloke is Steve Kerr and a very good coach but unfortunately I don't see those 50 senators doing anything.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 25, 2022, 08:36:49 pm
Decent bloke is Steve Kerr and a very good coach but unfortunately I don't see those 50 senators doing anything.
Well I hope they sleep well tonight the Kents.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on May 26, 2022, 07:10:07 am
I'm not a religious person.
I don't regard myself as a vindictive person.

But there's a part of me that kind of hopes there is a form of 'Afterlife' where people are held accountable for the evil that they do. :(
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 26, 2022, 07:19:13 am
I'm not a religious person.
I don't regard myself as a vindictive person.

But there's a part of me that kind of hopes there is a form of 'Afterlife' where people are held accountable for the evil that they do. :(
I'm generally not vindictive either however what will take to change things in that god for saken country. It seems to be that innocent children and parents suffer the most with this gun violence stuff. Abhorent to even say but I wonder if a handful of the senators were to lose children in a massacre, would that force them into action?
Simple background checks would have potentially stopped this latest one, a simple bill these mongrels won't pass and have been sitting on for 2 years. This piece of garbage simply walked into a store on his birthday and purchased 2 assault rifles and is now firmly cast in their retched history.
ENOUGH!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 26, 2022, 07:50:45 am
The mentality of many Americans leaves much to be desired.  And it will continue until some ruthless action comes into force. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on May 26, 2022, 09:19:21 am
Unless restrictions are imposed at the Federal level, the laxest State will undermine any States that try to take some action. For instance, Chicago has restrictions such as background checks but they can be easily avoided by driving a mere 27 kilometres to gun shops in Gary, Indiana where guns can be bought over the counter without any waiting period and without a licence. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 26, 2022, 12:44:50 pm
I wonder why Ed Curnow hates the Cats now, obviously there is his history, but he use to barrack for them?

I suspect it will be related to being stuck as an AFLPA representative with the Dangerfield as AFLPA President, that would surely be grating!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 26, 2022, 12:48:18 pm
I heard this on radio at lunchtime and had to share it, this comes out of an early series of the Batchelor, and relates to a famous or infamous participant Laurina Fleure who describe one of Adelaide's famous Pie Floaters as a Dirty Street Pie!

"Laurina Fleure, from Dirty Street Pie to Up the Duff, a common fate for many a SA female!"

Of course for those not quite in the know, the Pie Floater from the van outside the old Casino was Adelaide's equivalent of the 2am Souva!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 26, 2022, 01:07:38 pm

Of course for those not quite in the know, the Pie Floater from the van outside the old Casino was Adelaide's equivalent of the 2am Souva!
From Ulysses (no longer there) in High St Northcote at 3:30am?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 26, 2022, 01:39:46 pm
From Ulysses (no longer there) in High St Northcote at 3:30am?
I can't recall the name, but the place for those heading SE was in Bridge Road Richmond, there were two 24hr shops not far apart and down the road from the Epworth, one selling flowers and the other selling souva!
 
Oddly, but perhaps not surprisingly, they had a similar synergy to Laurina's Dirty Street Pie, in that new Dads were often the flower shop's big customers after hours, which might have been caused and effect related to late night Souva a few doors down! :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on May 26, 2022, 08:01:50 pm
Interesting that the 'good guys with a gun' don't always rise to the occasion to stop the bad guy with a gun. The school resource officer who refused to go inside Parklands school to confront the killer is going for trial as a result of his cowardice. Now, it looks like police who attended the school shooting in Texas also refused to go in soon after the incident started despite being called out by bystanders. Apparently, some bystanders discussed taking action when the police didn't: 
 Texas Shooting Onlookers Say Police Were 'Unprepared,' Didn't Go Into School, Huffpost. (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bc-us-texas-school-shooting_n_628eea7fe4b0cda85dba37de)

If the Republicans want to argue that arming everyone will help stop killers running amok, it would be useful if armed police showed they had the guts to intervene occasionally. But of course teachers will turn into Rambo if they're required to carry guns at school. They're paid so much to teach that it's only fair to expect them to exhibit more courage than trained police.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on May 26, 2022, 08:48:34 pm
I can't recall the name, but the place for those heading SE was in Bridge Road Richmond, there were two 24hr shops not far apart and down the road from the Epworth, one selling flowers and the other selling souva!
 
Oddly, but perhaps not surprisingly, they had a similar synergy to Laurina's Dirty Street Pie, in that new Dads were often the flower shop's big customers after hours, which might have been caused and effect related to late night Souva a few doors down! :o

Hollywood palace was one.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 27, 2022, 08:20:14 am
Hollywood palace was one.
Hollywood's ;D

When I was working on the newspapers in Flinder St we use to drive up to Hollywood's and get a souva or more usually a steak sandwich to go. Life isn't all that glamorous when you working on newspapers at 4am!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 27, 2022, 09:36:15 am
Unless restrictions are imposed at the Federal level, the laxest State will undermine any States that try to take some action. For instance, Chicago has restrictions such as background checks but they can be easily avoided by driving a mere 27 kilometres to gun shops in Gary, Indiana where guns can be bought over the counter without any waiting period and without a licence. 
This is the crux of the problem, no central control, States doing their own thing and Politicians too worried about the gun lobby and the backlash with regards votes.
The guns will go underground for sure but any reduction is a win and lives will be saved..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 27, 2022, 10:25:07 am
This is the crux of the problem, no central control, States doing their own thing and Politicians too worried about the gun lobby and the backlash with regards votes.
The guns will go underground for sure but any reduction is a win and lives will be saved..
The tail wags the dog in the US, EOS.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on May 27, 2022, 10:34:58 am
We tend to look at the USA as similar to our states. Some minor differences, but basically not a significant. I've lived in three states and spent a fair bit of time in another. Once you settle in folks are pretty much the same.
Apart from a common language the USA is more like the countries of Europe in the differences across the nation.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 27, 2022, 11:30:53 am
Maybe it's time to break up the USA in much the same way the USSR was unilaterally disassembled, while you are at it probably do the EU as well!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on May 27, 2022, 02:41:44 pm
The tail wags the dog in the US, EOS.

In the USA, democracy is a tool used to control the masses.  No matter who they vote for, the same gun lobbyists and arms dealers rule the nation.  War is extremely profitable for the USA.  They are as much an arms dealer universally and reserve the best weapons for themselves.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 28, 2022, 12:20:43 am
In the USA, democracy is a tool used to control the masses.  No matter who they vote for, the same gun lobbyists and arms dealers rule the nation.  War is extremely profitable for the USA.  They are as much an arms dealer universally and reserve the best weapons for themselves.
Yep, nothing like a good war to kick start the USA economy.....
Check out old rocker and gun nut Ted Nugent who is a fine example of why the USA is a mad house, its Ted vs Piers Morgan on his talk show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_iiTnZsYdY


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 28, 2022, 07:13:21 am
In the USA, democracy is a tool used to control the masses.  No matter who they vote for, the same gun lobbyists and arms dealers rule the nation.  War is extremely profitable for the USA.  They are as much an arms dealer universally and reserve the best weapons for themselves.
I'm sick of all the reasons and excuses for them, time to screwen act!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 29, 2022, 09:56:49 pm
Reading about the train wreck that is Liz Cambage, what a waste, yet from what I read it seems she has been on this path since her late teens, when she began literally and figuratively looking down on people.

The media I think are quite wrong labelling her racist, perhaps that is a reaction to being dismissed and disrespected by her, because if what I've read is accurate she is equally bigoted towards pretty much everybody outside of her immediate family. In Liz's world it seems you either for her or against her with nothing in-between, and this drives her into conflict we team-mates on a clockwork schedule.

Some of the stuff Tayla Harris says and does reminds me a little of Liz Cambage, and vice versa, it also reminds me a bit of Dangerfield who probably only gets away with what he says and does because he backs it up with performance and as such the sins are forgiven, like Carey and Hird before him.

They all seem to have one thing in common, a mirror!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on May 30, 2022, 08:56:42 am
In the USA, democracy is a tool used to control the masses.  No matter who they vote for, the same gun lobbyists and arms dealers rule the nation.  War is extremely profitable for the USA.  They are as much an arms dealer universally and reserve the best weapons for themselves.

Agree.  I believe that the US presents the greatest threat to humanity via war on the globe today. I'm very nervous as to what may happen if the West under US leadership is humiliated in Ukraine and elsewhere in Europe.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on May 30, 2022, 09:02:37 am
Agree.  I believe that the US presents the greatest threat to humanity via war on the globe today. I'm very nervous as to what may happen if the West under US leadership is humiliated in Ukraine and elsewhere in Europe.

And China?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on May 30, 2022, 09:04:20 am
And China?

Them too.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 01, 2022, 12:47:44 pm
It seems that Bec Judd and some of her Brighton Influencer neighbours are doing their best impersonation of the US WASP culture in that they are crying foul over all the horrendous violent crime proliferating in their local neighbourhood.

Perhaps the state should move Chris and Bec into Hoppers Crossing, Kalkallo, Doveton or Seaford unit for a few weeks to gather some perspective. Some of those suburbs are so use to it they don't even get the crimes reported anymore!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Professer E on June 01, 2022, 12:54:15 pm
Not Bec's finest moment.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 01, 2022, 01:22:58 pm
When the bushfires were raging Bec was complaining about the ashes and dust in her pool....awareness of others problems isn't one of her strong points.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 01, 2022, 01:25:33 pm
It seems that Bec Judd and some of her Brighton Influencer neighbours are doing their best impersonation of the US WASP culture in that they are crying foul over all the horrendous violent crime proliferating in their local neighbourhood.

Perhaps the state should move Chris and Bec into Hoppers Crossing, Kalkallo, Doveton or Seaford unit for a few weeks to gather some perspective. Some of those suburbs are so use to it they don't even get the crimes reported anymore!
Bec and Chris could try Caroline Springs or Delahey for a weekend away....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on June 01, 2022, 01:29:40 pm
Bec and Chris could try Caroline Springs or Delahey for a weekend away....

Our resident meghan markle
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on June 01, 2022, 02:10:26 pm
A home invasion is a home invasion, doesn't matter where you live or how rich you are.

Dan's response was despicable pretending not to know her name but that's how he treats women who speak up.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on June 01, 2022, 03:10:21 pm
A home invasion is a home invasion, doesn't matter where you live or how rich you are.

Dan's response was despicable pretending not to know her name but that's how he treats women who speak up.

He's an arrogant snarling sob ... leopards, spots
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on June 01, 2022, 03:40:32 pm
It seems that Bec Judd and some of her Brighton Influencer neighbours are doing their best impersonation of the US WASP culture in that they are crying foul over all the horrendous violent crime proliferating in their local neighbourhood.

Perhaps the state should move Chris and Bec into Hoppers Crossing, Kalkallo, Doveton or Seaford unit for a few weeks to gather some perspective. Some of those suburbs are so use to it they don't even get the crimes reported anymore!

Not the first time they've come across as elitist snobs. Must be a very shallow existence.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 01, 2022, 03:43:24 pm
Dan's response was despicable pretending not to know her name but that's how he treats women who speak up.
I partly agree, but in fairness many of the general public have little to no idea of who the vast bulk of the Instafamous might be, and the occasionally Instafamous reference might not be instantly recognisable when presented out of context.

Andrew Bolt's and Rita Panahi's opinions mean nothing to me, and if I'm consistent then I need to treat Bec Judd with similar indifference.

Not everybody thinks the Kardashian's rule the globe, or spend many pensive minutes over breakfast worrying about what colour spandex to wear to yoga!

Finally, in context of being relevant to commentary about security and criminal activity, "Bec who?" might well be the appropriate response, to which she will mechanistically follow up with some woke indignance in an "I'm Bec Judd" moment! It was basically another "Why aren't the police doing something?" from somebody who would more than likely drive over you rather than stop to help!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 01, 2022, 03:44:40 pm
Not the first time they've come across as elitist snobs. Must be a very shallow existence.
I've meet Judd face to face once and he seemed OK, not sure about him these days, but I do note he does seem to get on very well with Garry Lyon and that is not something to brag about!

Bec Judd seemed a bit more switched on in the past, when she was just a learner speech therapist, now she seems somewhat distant from humanity. I suppose next week we'll get to see Instaphotos of her spoon feeding boiled rice to a blind 3rd world child! All underlined with a "Hate Dan" caption, which may actually be the motive as retribution for removal of café rights in 2020 and 2021!

@Baggers sorry for my cynicism!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on June 01, 2022, 04:44:13 pm
I partly agree, but in fairness many of the general public have little to no idea of who the vast bulk of the Instafamous might be, and the occasionally Instafamous reference might not be instantly recognisable when presented out of context.

Andrew Bolt's and Rita Panahi's opinions mean nothing to me, and if I'm consistent then I need to treat Bec Judd with similar indifference.

Not everybody thinks the Kardashian's rule the globe, or spend many pensive minutes over breakfast worrying about what colour spandex to wear to yoga!

Finally, in context of being relevant to commentary about security and criminal activity, "Bec who?" might well be the appropriate response, to which she will mechanistically follow up with some woke indignance in an "I'm Bec Judd" moment! It was basically another "Why aren't the police doing something?" from somebody who would more than likely drive over you rather than stop to help!

Dan or his wife could run you over and they probably wouldn't be breathalysed.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on June 01, 2022, 04:54:35 pm
Dan's response was despicable pretending not to know her name but that's how he treats women who speak up.

Despicable? Thats a stretch.
In all honesty, her claim to fame is essentially marrying a superstar footy player and wearing half a dress.
Why should Dan, or anyone, give creedence to those types of comments from someone who is just insta-famous?

Poor form by her and dealt with appropriately.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 01, 2022, 05:26:22 pm
3347 cases of crime in Ms Judds Brighton area and 14200 in the suburbs of Casey and similar high numbers down at Frankston so I dont like her chances of more police being shipped out Brighton way
 Think I read more well heeled Brighton locals are employing their own security guards/companies, recent him invasions in Brighton have included 7 children being charged for home invasions which is concerning for many reasons including a 14 year old boy where a gun was fired. Think the odds of a Labor Premier spending more money in Liberal heartland down at the affluent suburbs of Bayside Melbourne in an election year are very high but where guns and kids are involved its worth some more investigation.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on June 01, 2022, 06:20:28 pm
Despicable? Thats a stretch.
In all honesty, her claim to fame is essentially marrying a superstar footy player and wearing half a dress.
Why should Dan, or anyone, give creedence to those types of comments from someone who is just insta-famous?

Poor form by her and dealt with appropriately.


Her come the stan with Dan lemmings.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on June 01, 2022, 06:27:06 pm
Her come the stan with Dan lemmings.
I'm surprised you responded so quickly, isn't Gogglebox on?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on June 01, 2022, 06:54:15 pm
I'm surprised you responded so quickly, isn't Gogglebox on?

I don't watch that show but what would it mean if I did?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on June 01, 2022, 08:42:57 pm
I don't watch that show but what would it mean if I did?
Never watched it either, but like many of those 'reality' shows, it's about the intelligence level of people who spout those same lines.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 01, 2022, 08:44:47 pm
What Bec stated is not defendable, it fails the pub test even if the pub was hosting a temperance society meeting.

Talking about Dan's or any other politicians response is a smokescreen to cover a naivé statement from a privilege white female.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on June 01, 2022, 08:55:40 pm
Never watched it either, but like many of those 'reality' shows, it's about the intelligence level of people who spout those same lines.

The only reality TV I watch is Survivor.
I'm currently watching Billions and Obi Wan Kenobi.


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 01, 2022, 09:32:03 pm
Trying to ignite another round of "I'm tougher on crime than you are" isn't conducive to good public policy. And trying to re-ignite the African gangs campaign is certainly not in the public interest.

Trying to tie the can around the necks of an identifiable segment of the population is guaranteed to cause "unintended" harm to that segment of the population. We've seen that over in the US. Trump blamed the Chinese for Covid and Tucker Carlson and the other Fox News arseholes tried to weaponise the replacement theory: that non-whites were trying to boost their numbers in the US so they could take over from real Americans (i.e. white guys).

But credit where it's due. A lot of seriously dangerous people had some heat put on them. An 84 year old Thai-American was slammed to the ground and killed. An elderly Asian woman was punched repeatedly. The Buffalo shooter published a manifesto parroting the great replacement theory before gunning down 10 Black Americans at a supermarket. Who knows what havoc those killings prevented ...

One election later, the lessons from Melbourne’s ‘African gang’ panic (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/one-election-later-the-lessons-from-melbourne-s-african-gang-panic-20211118-p59a4u.html), The Age, 23/11/21.

Quote
A curious calm came over Melbourne in the summer of 2018.

For more than two years, a whirlwind of media and political commentary had placed us in the grip of an African gang “reign of fear” – a supposed daily frenzy of home invasions, carjackings and street riots. And then, we weren’t.

Yet there had been no mass arrests or deportations, or a revolution in community outreach to the Sudanese and South Sudanese migrant communities who had been portrayed as a dire public threat.

No, the politicians and newspapers just stopped talking about the “gangs” after a law and order-focused Coalition lost the 2018 state election. In their wake are scarred communities, deep mistrust and a big law and order bill for taxpayers.

The African crime issue has resurfaced in recent weeks as The Age sought to understand Victoria’s transformation from a lightly policed state to the most heavily policed in the country, and why our criminal justice spending is growing at double or triple the rate of other states.

One seasoned political player says Victoria’s African crime “crisis” provides an uncomfortable lesson for politicians, policymakers and the media.

“It was a very sad episode in Australian politics,” says Ian Smith, a prominent Liberal-linked lobbyist and one-time staffer to former premier Jeff Kennett, who also works with Australia’s South Sudanese community.

“I would hope we never see anything like that again.”

As we approach a year of federal and state electioneering, it is timely to ask: what was all the fuss about, what was the impact, and can we avoid a repeat?

Campaign mode
The first notable suggestion of an African crime problem in Victoria came when News Corp’s Herald Sun first reported on the Apex gang, a ragtag of teenagers who bashed and robbed their way to notoriety in 2015. While police insisted Apex was not race-based, its membership would be indelibly linked to city’s small Sudanese minority.

But the issue really exploded after a rolling brawl at Melbourne’s Federation Square during the city’s annual Moomba Festival in March 2016.

Despite police describing those involved as a “United Nations” of Melbourne youth, state-based and national media, the Herald-Sun in particular, went into overdrive over the “riot” and alleged “African” violence.

Newsrooms went on high alert for African offending, trawling police media releases and court listings for reports about suspects of “African appearance” or with African-sounding names.

By early 2017 the state Liberals were in campaign mode and African “gangs” were part of what party elder Tony Nutt would later describe as a law and order campaign “package”. In his first stint as state Liberal leader, Matthew Guy claimed Melbourne was becoming the “Johannesburg of the South Pacific”. Channelling Donald Trump’s Make America Great Again slogan, he promised that as premier, “making Victoria safe again will be my first, second and third priority”.

‘Every day we’re seeing riots, we’re seeing crime waves. This is a government who is standing by and allowing Melbourne to become the Johannesburg of the South Pacific.’

Matthew Guy
Guy’s team joined the chorus, with then frontbenchers Tim Smith tweeting about African gang “terror” and John Pesutto on Sky News highlighting gang violence by South Sudanese youths.

Crime statistics about the Sudanese and South Sudanese became a rallying cry.

Federal MP Jason Wood was the chair of a parliamentary inquiry into migration that focused heavily on crime and the integration of Melbourne’s African community.

The committee’s December 2017 report sparked a political and media firestorm by using statistics to quantify the extent of Sudanese and South Sudanese offending.

While there is no doubt that African youths were overrepresented proportionally in crime statistics, the report’s most damning figure was based on a calculation error.

It prompted the Victorian Crime Statistics Agency to publicly warn about the “misleading” figures. But the damage was done, the mistake appearing time and again in media reports.

Don Weatherburn – former director of the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research and author of Vanishing Criminal: Causes of Decline in Australia’s Crime Rate – says that at the best of times, it’s difficult for the public to understand crime statistics.

“People don’t study the crime stats,” he says, “they get their impression of crime’s prevalence from the media.”

In late 2017 The Australian launched a series called State of Disorder, which reported for almost 12 months on the alleged failure of the Andrews government and Victoria Police to deal with the crime crisis.

‘People are scared to go out to restaurants of a night-time because they are followed home by these gangs.’

Peter Dutton

Early in 2018, federal Liberals weighed in to back their state colleagues, led by then home affairs minister Peter Dutton and his incendiary claim that Melburnians were too scared to go out to dinner at night. Former prime minister Malcolm Turnbull joined in, observing you would “have to be walking around with your hands over your ears” not to hear the “real concerns” about Sudanese gangs. Health Minister Greg Hunt claimed “African gang crime” was “clearly out of control”.

Then, after the Coalition’s relentless campaigning on law and order issues proved fruitless at the November election, the panic was over.

Toxic mix
So, what was it all about? Media beat-up? Base politics? Both?

A generous reading of the saga is that it was a toxic interplay between the media and politics that spun out of control as newspapers and politicians chased sensational headlines.

While no media outlet was immune – The Age included – the issue ran most prominently in News Corp’s mastheads, according to a new book Place, Race and Politics: The Anatomy of a Law and Order Crisis. After being virtually non-existent as a media topic just six months before Moomba in 2016, an analysis of media coverage found dozens of references monthly to African gangs, crime or the Sudanese community running by early 2018.

The authors conclude the Moomba “riot” and its aftermath appeared to merge and bring to a head two sources of social anxiety: fear about a youth justice system in crisis, and a suspicion about Melbourne’s Sudanese/South Sudanese communities and their “alleged ‘failure to integrate’, which had been smouldering over the preceding decade”.

Each media report about a street brawl, carjacking or home invasion involving people of African heritage would come to reinforce the crime wave narrative, which gathered in strength as the state election approached.

The book concludes it is difficult, perhaps impossible, to disentangle political and media influences when analysing the law and order “crisis”. “The election increased the newsworthiness of incidents that fit with the ‘crisis’ narrative and media coverage of the incidents served to evidence the problem.”

The reporting didn’t go unchallenged. In November 2018, County Court Chief Judge Peter Kidd made an extraordinary public intervention to slam the “skewed” reporting.

“If you are an African offender, and certainly if you’re an African youth of South Sudanese background from the western suburbs of Melbourne, rest assured your case will be reported upon,” he told the ABC.

“The media choose to report upon those cases. That creates an impression that we, that our work, a very significant proportion of our work is taken up with African youths from the western suburbs of Melbourne. That’s a false impression.”

Whether opportunistically following media reporting or consciously driving it, there is no doubt conservative politicians knowingly exploited and fanned the African crime issue. The Liberals acknowledged as much. In the official election post-mortem, party elder Nutt conceded the campaign focus on African gangs backfired, with respondents to post-election market research identifying it as a “cheap political tactic”.

Monash University professor of criminology Rebecca Wickes, one of the co-authors of Place, Race and Politics, says the issue “dropped off the radar” after the Liberal Party lost the poll. “It shows this was basically a moral panic, with politicians and the media feeding the narrative and cross-promoting.”

Notable are the responses to The Age’s requests for comments for this story. Those who refused to comment and/or respond include: state Opposition Leader Matthew Guy, former prime minister Malcolm Turnbull, federal assistant minister for multicultural affairs Jason Wood, former Liberal Victorian president Michael Kroger, former Liberal state director Nick Demiris, political campaign strategist Ian Hanke, who worked on the campaign, Kew MP Tim Smith, and former shadow attorney-general John Pesutto.

The Herald Sun and The Australian also did not respond to requests for comment

The irony is that the number of Sudanese and South Sudanese offenders has continued to rise in the past two years without provoking any of the political and media hysteria that fuelled the “crisis” before the election.

Victoria Police has also wrapped up the African Australian Community Taskforce, established at the height of the “crisis” in early 2018.

While it was simple for politicians and the media to walk away from these issues when it no longer suited their purposes, it was not so easy for others.

‘We feel marginalised’
Monica Deng is from a South Sudanese refugee family and came to Australia with her mother in 2004.

She is a Melbourne pharmacist and a director of the South Sudanese Australian Youth United, a grassroots group that works with South Sudanese youth. Deng says the media coverage and politics around African gangs was “unfair and unjust” and often made no sense.

“The effects are very, very damaging even in the longer term,” she says. “A lot of us feel very marginalised. Media vilification can have negative consequences such as lowering the self-esteem of young people.”

Maker Mayek is a South Sudan-born lawyer who co-founded the #AfricanGangs hashtag in response to the “sensationalising” of crime statistics and the profiling of young people from African communities.

Before the 2018 election he tried repeatedly to explain to politicians and journalists that the racialising of crime was damaging his community and the wider Victorian public.

“Families were rejected for rental properties. People were becoming homeless ... and there was a big increase in the suicide rate. It became something everyone in the community was talking about,” he says.

But there was a broader community price for the racialised crime panic. As the African gang narrative through 2016 merged with wider concerns about rising youth justice issues following a breakout from the Parkville detention centre, political and media pressure grew intense.

In late 2016 and early 2017, the Andrews government announced a raft of punitive justice reforms including: a new $288 million youth prison and increase in the maximum detention period for young offenders to four years; the transfer of youth justice management from the health to justice departments, which also oversees adult corrections; and an unprecedented $2 billion for 3100 extra police officers, the biggest single increase in police numbers in the state’s history.

These costly initiatives continued a decade-long pattern of tough-on-crime legislation and actions by Labor and Coalition governments that had driven up police and prisoner numbers, costing us billions of dollars a year that could be spent on programs and services that help keep Victorians out of the criminal justice system.

The crime crackdown would continue with the tough bail laws introduced after James Gargasoulas’ 2017 Bourke Street killings. The laws were hailed by Labor as the “most onerous” in the country.

And the saddest outcome of all is that those caught in the crime crackdown tend not to be hardened criminals or violent attackers. They’re lower-level offenders on remand. The growth in prisoner numbers is greater for women than men. For First Nations people it’s greater still, and for Indigenous women it’s greater again.

Call for balance
What now? More of the same? More racialised crime hysteria? More law and order chest-beating before the 2022 election?

Right now, it seems unlikely. An unintended consequence of the Coalition and media over-cooking of African crime, and the conservatives’ drubbing at the 2018 poll, is the lowering of the heat on law and order.

“The landslide election loss sent a strong message that fearmongering is not something that the people of Melbourne and Victoria are willing to accept,” says Mayek.

After the election, and under former opposition leader Michael O’Brien, the Coalition acknowledged the non-sustainability of prison spending and called for a bipartisan approach, leaving open the possibility of bail law reform.

Since reassuming the state Liberal leadership, Guy has been noticeably quiet about law and order, focusing instead on the COVID-19 recovery and government pandemic overreach. Ditto, relatively, the media.

Behind the scenes. Ian Smith has been trying to build bridges between the Sudanese community and senior Liberal Party figures. The chasm is wide.

“I hope that the politicians will take a very different approach to campaigning in future elections,” says Smith. “I think they will.”

Mayek hopes so too. He does not shy away from the challenges to a community still coming to terms with an often troubled past. “Many of us came from war-torn backgrounds. We have experienced violence and we don’t want that for anybody.”

He stresses his community does not expect special treatment from journalists or politicians.

“We just want balance.”
I hope the racist arseholes are torn a new one this election as well.


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 01, 2022, 10:12:20 pm
Trying to ignite another round of "I'm tougher on crime than you are" isn't conducive to good public policy. And trying to re-ignite the African gangs campaign is certainly not in the public interest.

Trying to tie the can around the necks of an identifiable segment of the population is guaranteed to cause "unintended" harm to that segment of the population. We've seen that over in the US. Trump blamed the Chinese for Covid and Tucker Carlson and the other Fox News arseholes tried to weaponise the replacement theory: that non-whites were trying to boost their numbers in the US so they could take over from real Americans (i.e. white guys).

But credit where it's due. A lot of seriously dangerous people had some heat put on them. An 84 year old Thai-American was slammed to the ground and killed. An elderly Asian woman was punched repeatedly. The Buffalo shooter published a manifesto parroting the great replacement theory before gunning down 10 Black Americans at a supermarket. Who knows what havoc those killings prevented ...

One election later, the lessons from Melbourne’s ‘African gang’ panic (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/one-election-later-the-lessons-from-melbourne-s-african-gang-panic-20211118-p59a4u.html), The Age, 23/11/21.
I hope the racist arseholes are torn a new one this election as well.



Doesnt matter what colour you are, you cant go around breaking into peoples home, terrorising them and then expecting to get off because you are under age and using your racial background as an excuse for a free pass.
These kids will be badly hurt one day even fatally, they will pick the wrong house, with the wrong people who will fight back and it will be like South Africa or America and we dont want Australia descending into that type of society.
Gangs of any variety attacking people anywhere need stopping now and harsh deterrents applied..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 01, 2022, 10:21:03 pm
Who says they should get a free pass? Anyone doing run throughs should be arrested & dealt with by the courts. And it doesn't matter what colour a kid's skin might be: if they're in the Children's Court, age does matter. Unless you want to carve out an exception for kids who are black. Of course, white kids have just gone off the tracks and need to be rehabilitated. They go to good schools and have great prospects. Ask any teacher from a private school about that.

Wonder if those white kids from private schools who do stupid crap together are in gangs. I'm only joking. Of course white kids aren't in gangs.

But there has to be a scalpel-like solution. Don't tar all African kids as gang members. That sort of crap sticks. And if you've read the article, that crap doesn't just stick to the innocent kids, it also sticks to innocent adults.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 01, 2022, 11:44:21 pm
@ElwoodBlues1‍ wrote it "Doesn't matter what colour you are!", his opening statement above in discussing crime.

All the identity stuff being attached to this debate is coming from you @Mav, you initiate all the labels!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 02, 2022, 12:43:04 am
WTF? His opening sentence was in response to the article I posted which dealt with the African gangs scare. And if you don't think our lovely Bec was regarded by many as blaming African gangs, then I've got some swampland I want to sell you. But it was no doubt a wonderful attempt at setting racial identity aside by EB. Pity it was followed up by a statement that being under age and using your racial background can't be an excuse for a free pass. I'm guessing that means he was saying white kids shouldn't use their whiteness as an excuse, or was it a reference to black kids? Oh no, it looks as though there's some identity stuff rearing it's head there. And it all started out so promisingly.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 02, 2022, 07:36:00 am
I don't watch that show but what would it mean if I did?
Not a fan but I've watched Gogglebox a couple of times, one of the blokes on it is a bluebagger, a pretty cunny funt. Sits there with the Mrs drinking beer out of his Carlton stubby holder. Ive been told he was an extremely handy surburban footballer in his day.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 02, 2022, 07:59:37 am
WTF? His opening sentence was in response to the article I posted which dealt with the African gangs scare.
That's exactly correct, we were all having a discussion about crime and politics and you introduced race.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 02, 2022, 09:31:40 am
Not a fan but I've watched Gogglebox a couple of times, one of the blokes on it is a bluebagger, a pretty cunny funt. Sits there with the Mrs drinking beer out of his Carlton stubby holder. Ive been told he was an extremely handy surburban footballer in his day.

He's the billy brownless look alike thats always barefoot yeah?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 02, 2022, 10:19:42 am
I'm not sure what to make of the Depp / Heard case.

Heard is painting it as further evidence for the oppression of women by a misogynist society.
Quote
“I’m heartbroken that the mountain of evidence still was not enough to stand up to the disproportionate power, influence and sway of my ex-husband,” she said.

“I’m even more disappointed with what this verdict means for other women ... I believe Johnny’s attorney succeeded in getting the jury to overlook the key issue of freedom of speech and ignore evidence that was so conclusive that we won in the UK.
But in fairness to Depp, it could easily be that a court has ignored hearsay and looked for genuine evidence find nothing at all conclusive. What Heard describes above as "evidence" were mostly 1st person reports unsupported by any conclusive evidence, there were even some questions over the validity of the physical evidence with one 1st hand report claiming that some of the bruises widely published on the internet did not quite look right, in real life more like makeup than a bruise. Did Heard try to use "looking" as a form of evidence? This would be ironic given how many women now rally online against the practise of judging people by their looks!

Or has Depp's legal team succeeded in the practise of victim blaming.

Heard seems more concerned about her right to to say and do whatever she likes, perhaps for significant profit, rather than being proven a victim of domestic violence.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 02, 2022, 11:43:03 am
The bizarre thing about this is that, just on the surface, most of the elation at the decision and support for Depp seems to be coming from women. ???

(Maybe not so bizarre)

My female facebook friends are all over it. ;D
On TV, the cheering outside the court is predominantly female.

The blokes couldn't give a stuff.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 02, 2022, 12:13:02 pm
Interesting, my wife falls on Depp's side of the debate as well, she seemed to think Heard was stacking it on, it seems to be a view shared by a lot of women.

But it's a very subjective measure, all emotion, empathy and body language based, which I do my best to avoid. My wife seems to think that aspect of Heard's claims are a bit of a tell, too much "feel sorry for me" and not enough "here is what happened" maybe?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 02, 2022, 12:46:21 pm
I’m not sure the sisterhood is a real thing. My partner always has a go at Jane Bunn for being fat and failing to wear clothes that hide her physique. You’d have thought focussing on her presentation skills and background as a meteorologist might be more important, but apparently not. And in any talent quest decided by public votes, female contestants are dead ducks if there’s a big female vote.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 02, 2022, 12:49:50 pm
The bizarre thing about this is that, just on the surface, most of the elation at the decision and support for Depp seems to be coming from women. ???

(Maybe not so bizarre)

My female facebook friends are all over it. ;D
On TV, the cheering outside the court is predominantly female.

The blokes couldn't give a stuff.
I havent followed it but my wife and daughter (who is a lawyer) have and they were very happy Depp won the case. They cannot stand Heard. My view is simply this, if your going to accuse someone of abuse, you must have evidence. From what have understood, told (right or wrong), she had nothing other than herself shouting from the rooftops.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on June 02, 2022, 01:14:18 pm
There goes her (undeserved) pay day.  Need a comfort pony dear?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 02, 2022, 01:26:58 pm
There goes her (undeserved) pay day.  Need a comfort pony dear?
Actually I think from the divorce she is still well ahead of the ledger, this amount is just a fraction of what she has already been awarded.

One time too many at the well?
 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 02, 2022, 01:28:58 pm
Irrespective of whether or not she won the case, she is more famous for it than not.  I didnt know who she was, but I could tell you that Johnny Depp was in the original Nightmare on Elm Street, as well as 21 Jump Street.

Regarding the abuse, lets not mistake a court finding her guilty of defamation, as him being not guilty of abuse.

This case proved that Amber is a liar, but it didnt disprove that Depp is an abuser, and its entirely possible that both is true enough. 

When you consider Depp and his moral fibre, just remember he tried to sneak dogs into the country and failed.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 02, 2022, 01:41:06 pm
When you consider Depp and his moral fibre, just remember he tried to sneak dogs into the country and failed.
Agree about the proof or disproof stuff.

Just a point of difference, they were Heard's dog they tried to bring in on a private jet, to keep her company while Depp was filming!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 02, 2022, 01:43:02 pm
^^

Would you have done it?  I would have just filled in the requisite paperwork, and told her to come later.  Its not like he couldnt have sent the plane back to get her.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 02, 2022, 02:16:53 pm
^^

Would you have done it?  I would have just filled in the requisite paperwork, and told her to come later.  Its not like he couldnt have sent the plane back to get her.
No, but the facts still matter, and given what we have seen reported as part of the trial I'm not surprised it was attempted. We have no idea how it came about, but we do know Depp bought into it, at least when he was sober!
 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on June 02, 2022, 02:27:40 pm
Amber Heard is a diagnosed BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder)... I wouldn't believe just about anything she said. Compulsive liars and right into drama and blaming everyone else.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on June 02, 2022, 02:38:44 pm
Irrespective of whether or not she won the case, she is more famous for it than not.  I didnt know who she was, but I could tell you that Johnny Depp was in the original Nightmare on Elm Street, as well as 21 Jump Street.

Regarding the abuse, lets not mistake a court finding her guilty of defamation, as him being not guilty of abuse.

This case proved that Amber is a liar, but it didnt disprove that Depp is an abuser, and its entirely possible that both is true enough. 

When you consider Depp and his moral fibre, just remember he tried to sneak dogs into the country and failed.

^^

Would you have done it?  I would have just filled in the requisite paperwork, and told her to come later.  Its not like he couldnt have sent the plane back to get her.

Thry, no it was her

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/17/asia/australia-depp-dogs-trial/index.html
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 02, 2022, 03:01:33 pm
Depp and Heard are just spoilt actors who should have both been fined for over acting in court, time wasting and the money sent to charity. Great PR for them both and I'm sure it will lead to a TV mini series where they should make some more dough selling their rights and those short on brain cells and flush with time can re-live the highlights of what is a snore fest IMO and probably held up the justice system from adjudicating on more worthy cases.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on June 02, 2022, 03:23:14 pm
Thry, no it was her

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/17/asia/australia-depp-dogs-trial/index.html

'She pleaded guilty to knowingly producing a false or misleading document...' how very typical of someone with BPD, they're a law unto themselves, being rich in narcissism. And when caught out they have two only responses... vindictiveness, or go the huge sook and woe is me (used to manipulate). Her comments after the court case failure are typical... 'I feel for all women in abusive relationships...' bla bla bla... just more manipulation and holier-than-thou bullshizen.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 02, 2022, 04:20:34 pm
Amber Heard is a diagnosed BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder)... I wouldn't believe just about anything she said. Compulsive liars and right into drama and blaming everyone else.
This is why our forum is a cut above, we actually have genuine debates and learn stuff here. ;D

I had not heard of BPD before, but the minute I read your description I could identify dozens of sufferers! :o

The drama types, those two characteristics, unfounded savage retribution and / or an onset of self pity, it's all there to see!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on June 02, 2022, 04:40:46 pm
Irrespective of whether or not she won the case, she is more famous for it than not.  I didnt know who she was, but I could tell you that Johnny Depp was in the original Nightmare on Elm Street, as well as 21 Jump Street.

I knew of Amber Heard long before she hooked up with Depp. I'm a horror buff and she's been in plenty of horror films. Most mainstream would be Zombieland - she's "406" the neighbour at the start.
Anyway, I was somewhat of a fan before all this $hit started. She's bat%hit crazy watching some of her testimony.

My wife who is very much a feminist takes her side based on some things depp has admitted to saying (words, not actions) where myself, who was a fan of hers is very much on the other side of the debate and pro-johnny.

Hollywood seems to have an easier time forgiving males rather than females. Depp is big enough that he'll come back from here (if he wants too). On the other hand, Amber Heard will 'age herself out of hollywood' and they'll find some other hot blonde to take her place and she'll never be seen again. She's not that good of an actor to come back from this, especially being female and having to jump through the extra hoops they do (think Weinstein).
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 02, 2022, 05:15:29 pm
Amber Heard is a diagnosed BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder)... I wouldn't believe just about anything she said. Compulsive liars and right into drama and blaming everyone else.
The problem Baggers is that people like that scream that they have been done wrong by and in todays society, Woman vs Man typically ends badly for the man (regardless how much of looney said woman might be). I am not trivialising violence against woman, not one bit. All I am saying is there needs to be proof and if there is, put a bullet through the blokes eyes as far as Im concerned. If there isn't, throw it out FFS.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on June 02, 2022, 06:31:16 pm
The problem Baggers is that people like that scream that they have been done wrong by and in todays society, Woman vs Man typically ends badly for the man (regardless how much of looney said woman might be). I am not trivialising violence against woman, not one bit. All I am saying is there needs to be proof and if there is, put a bullet through the blokes eyes as far as Im concerned. If there isn't, throw it out FFS.

And that's what Depp (who aint no angel, but he proved he's no woman basher) was up against. Community opinion was loaded against him owing to highly manipulative and exaggerated claims from Heard. Justice prevailed and she was exposed in court for her outrageous accusations... along with coming across as a vindictive goose.

I take your point, GTC, the pendulum has swung a bit too far...  if you're a bloke and there's accusations of domestic violence, you're guilty before being proven ...anything!

Amber Heard actually set back legitimate domestic violence claims. And blokes who do beat up their partners... you know the rest!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on June 02, 2022, 06:32:50 pm
The problem Baggers is that people like that scream that they have been done wrong by and in todays society, Woman vs Man typically ends badly for the man (regardless how much of looney said woman might be). I am not trivialising violence against woman, not one bit. All I am saying is there needs to be proof and if there is, put a bullet through the blokes eyes as far as Im concerned. If there isn't, throw it out FFS.

I haven't followed the case and, even if I had, I probably wouldn't know who was in the right, or less in the wrong.

However, we have had some high profile cases here where the blokes have won despite seemingly strong evidence that they were in the wrong.  That's the cases involving Geoffrey Rush, Craig McLachlan and Tom Jarrett.  Of course, their careers have suffered as a consequence.  McLachlan recently dropped his defamation case.  I have no idea why, but it may have been because he was heading for a loss and more bad publicity.

It's certainly a fraught situation and one to be avoided wherever possible regardless of your fame, fortune, gender or leanings.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 02, 2022, 08:40:00 pm


Amber Heard actually set back legitimate domestic violence claims. And blokes who do beat up their partners... you know the rest!
Virtually word for word what Mrs GTC said at the dinner table tonight.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 03, 2022, 03:17:34 pm
I read that Putin is almost ready to cash in his chips. May is illness and death be a long, drawn out and extremely painful one. Kent.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on June 03, 2022, 03:20:11 pm
I read that Putin is almost ready to cash in his chips. May is illness and death be a long, drawn out and extremely painful one. Kent.

Well that's the West is hoping for.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 03, 2022, 04:01:56 pm
Well that's the West is hoping for.
Problem is the bloke who was nominated to fill in for him while he received treatment isnt any better and could even be worse...
Offically Mikhail Mishustin would be next inline as President but he is just a puppet put into the job with no power and ambition which is why he has the job as President so he is no threat to Vlad. The bloke who really wields power is Nikolai Patrushev who is Putin MarkII and a nasty piece of work who instigates a lot of Putins dirty work and killings.
Someone sensible in the military needs to do away with Patrushev and take over....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on June 03, 2022, 06:47:35 pm
Problem is the bloke who was nominated to fill in for him while he received treatment isnt any better and could even be worse...
Offically Mikhail Mishustin would be next inline as President but he is just a puppet put into the job with no power and ambition which is why he has the job as President so he is no threat to Vlad. The bloke who really wields power is Nikolai Patrushev who is Putin MarkII and a nasty piece of work who instigates a lot of Putins dirty work and killings.
Someone sensible in the military needs to do away with Patrushev and take over....

Yep. I was reading that compared to some hardliners in Russia,  Putin is a pussycat?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on June 03, 2022, 09:20:32 pm
Kudos to the afl…
I just opened the afl app to be greeted by a banner saying that all VFL (& state league ?) games are now able to be streamed to your smart tv via chromecast or airplay.
Long overdue, but thank you afl.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 03, 2022, 10:43:08 pm
Kudos to the afl…
I just opened the afl app to be greeted by a banner saying that all VFL (& state league ?) games are now able to be streamed to your smart tv via chromecast or airplay.
Long overdue, but thank you afl.
I noticed that last week when I was searching for our VFL game, the AFL website had a link to every game that you could stream. The stream starts right on game time. Agree well done AFL.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on June 03, 2022, 10:50:18 pm
I noticed that last week when I was searching for our VFL game, the AFL website had a link to every game that you could stream. The stream starts right on game time. Agree well done AFL.

It’s the ability to watch on your big screen that works for me, I’d never bother watching footy on my Mobi, I do use my iPad at times, but I’m much more likely to watch on the tv.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 03, 2022, 10:51:33 pm
It’s the ability to watch on your big screen that works for me, I’d never bother watching footy on my Mobi, I do use my iPad at times, but I’m much more likely to watch on the tv.
Fair enough, personally Im happy to watch them on the Mac.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on June 04, 2022, 07:04:11 am
About time.

You can watch little league baseball on ESPN.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 04, 2022, 01:35:23 pm
For those of you who spent more than a few moments wondering whether the Congress would be shocked into action by the Uvalde school shooting, you now have your answer. A Republican congressman from NY made the apparently outrageous comment that he’d vote to ban the AR-15 if a Bill came to the floor for a vote. He has received such an intense backlash from fellow Republicans that he has now withdrawn from seeking re-election in November. Most of the Republicans who had endorsed him have withdrawn their endorsements and those he had anticipated have evaporated.

Republican Congressman Quits Race After Backlash Over His Gun Stance, HuffPost. (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/republican-congressman-quits-race-after-backlash-over-his-gun-stance_n_629a6f14e4b016c4eef95cdb)

In the House of Representatives, members have to seek re-election every 2 years. Almost as soon as they’re elected, they have to gear up for yet another primary and congressional election. If they do nothing controversial, they might be lucky and win their primaries unopposed, saving them a lot of time and money. Do anything courageous and they’ll be fighting to the death after being “primaried”. No wonder courage is in short supply but thoughts and prayers are plentiful.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on June 04, 2022, 02:04:25 pm
For those of you who spent more than a few moments wondering whether the Congress would be shocked into action by the Uvalde school shooting, you now have your answer. A Republican congressman from NY made the apparently outrageous comment that he’d vote to ban the AR-15 if a Bill came to the floor for a vote. He has received such an intense backlash from fellow Republicans that he has now withdrawn from seeking re-election in November. Most of the Republicans who had endorsed him have withdrawn their endorsements and those he had anticipated have evaporated.

Republican Congressman Quits Race After Backlash Over His Gun Stance, HuffPost. (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/republican-congressman-quits-race-after-backlash-over-his-gun-stance_n_629a6f14e4b016c4eef95cdb)

In the House of Representatives, members have to seek re-election every 2 years. Almost as soon as they’re elected, they have to gear up for yet another primary and congressional election. If they do nothing controversial, they might be lucky and win their primaries unopposed, saving them a lot of time and money. Do anything courageous and they’ll be fighting to the death after being “primaried”. No wonder courage is in short supply but thoughts and prayers are plentiful.

Yep, those prayers work a treat. ::)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 04, 2022, 04:39:50 pm
For those of you who spent more than a few moments wondering whether the Congress would be shocked into action by the Uvalde school shooting, you now have your answer. A Republican congressman from NY made the apparently outrageous comment that he’d vote to ban the AR-15 if a Bill came to the floor for a vote. He has received such an intense backlash from fellow Republicans that he has now withdrawn from seeking re-election in November. Most of the Republicans who had endorsed him have withdrawn their endorsements and those he had anticipated have evaporated.

Republican Congressman Quits Race After Backlash Over His Gun Stance, HuffPost. (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/republican-congressman-quits-race-after-backlash-over-his-gun-stance_n_629a6f14e4b016c4eef95cdb)

In the House of Representatives, members have to seek re-election every 2 years. Almost as soon as they’re elected, they have to gear up for yet another primary and congressional election. If they do nothing controversial, they might be lucky and win their primaries unopposed, saving them a lot of time and money. Do anything courageous and they’ll be fighting to the death after being “primaried”. No wonder courage is in short supply but thoughts and prayers are plentiful.
Im sorry but the nutter Politicians in the US need to suffer loss of loved ones at the hands of people with assault rifles,  every last one of them. I don't condense violence, especially gun violence but...you can work out the rest.
Maybe, just maybe, then they will act. They make me sick.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 06, 2022, 11:37:58 am
Anybody else get the feeling Prince Louis might be a bit of a dick. ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 06, 2022, 11:42:42 am
Anybody else get the feeling Prince Louis might be a bit of a dick. ;D
Not very often you get to see Royal children being children, which I think is much better to see than the alternative.
 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on June 06, 2022, 12:41:15 pm
Anybody else get the feeling Prince Louis might be a bit of a dick. ;D

Not at all ...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 06, 2022, 12:48:28 pm
Not at all ...

I actually meant it in a good way. ;)
Hence the emoticon. ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 06, 2022, 01:00:38 pm
'bit of a dick'
 The meaning is metaphorical, and is distinct from being an "utter dick" a "complete dick" and variations of the same.

"Being a dick" (utter, complete, etc) is to have a tiny thread of logic to your words or actions, while completely missing the point, being socially autistic, probably causing offence and maybe causing physical harm to an innocent.

Being a "bit of a dick" is therefore to meet the above criteria, but to be too personally insignificant to really cause more than a flicker of annoyance or a moment of disdain. Something like being head-butted by an angry chicken.
Everyone agreed the traffic warden was being a bit of a dick for ticketing the ambulance as the paramedics gave first aid by the roadside.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: capcom on June 06, 2022, 01:04:56 pm
I actually meant it in a good way. ;)
Hence the emoticon. ;D

:) 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 08, 2022, 05:25:36 pm
This is heartbreaking to watch, tears streaming down my face listening to real stories about young innocent lives lost in Robb Elementary School in Uvalde Texas. ENOUGH!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJOw0XUyTQs
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 21, 2022, 11:41:44 am
If you have ever had any doubt about some of the underlying motives in this transgender debate, take a look across the spectrum of commentary in the follow up to Fina's decision.

Even people like Mouncey and Jenner are diametrically opposed, Mouncey is calling it an outrage, Jenner is basically saying it's overdue!

I think it just exposes that the process has more to do with politics, economics and income than personal preferences, it feels like many of the loudest voices do not want to play sport, they want to make money!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 24, 2022, 11:42:11 am
Kieran Perkins made a big issue of the minority aspect of transgender athletes. But if I had a daughter in elite sport I'd be pretty unhappy if Kieran put on a frock to join with the minority, and then swim against and defeat my daughter who had spent years trying to get to the pinnacle of female sport.

It's not about the head counts, it's about letting a tank into a rifle range, sure there might only be 1 tank but that won't help 1000 rifles compete on a level playing field!

Despite the various denials and discussions about the small number of individuals, it's a bit of a thin edge argument. I think Sterling Archer has a saying that is somewhat applicable to this debate, "Just the tip!"

There is an asymmetry to this debate that most are conveniently ignoring, Caitlyn Kenner's honesty is refreshing, at least she admits it's not an even playing field.

Sooner or later the politically correct are going to let a wolf into the sheep pen, and that wolf will become a world dominance that the girls just cannot compete with, it's will be worth million$ and yes people will do this just for the power and money!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 24, 2022, 12:57:42 pm
Simple. 

In the name of equality, lets take gender out of sports and open each competition to all genders rather than specify man/woman.

May the best man win.

;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 24, 2022, 02:45:12 pm
Simple. 

In the name of equality, lets take gender out of sports and open each competition to all genders rather than specify man/woman.

May the best man win.

;)
As a hypothetical how long do you think that would last?

It would be a hell of a tough lesson to learn for some people, and it would take the term misogynist to a whole new level! :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on June 24, 2022, 02:49:42 pm
Simple. 

In the name of equality, lets take gender out of sports and open each competition to all genders rather than specify man/woman.

May the best man win.

;)

Are there any female born transgenders trying to get into men's competitions?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 24, 2022, 02:53:38 pm
Are there any female born transgenders trying to get into men's competitions?
That question will be labelled absurd by the politically correct types, but it hints at a Fermi Transgender Paradox! ;D
 
How long will it before before a female transitions to male, all those steroids, but when settled still wants to go back and compete with the girls?

What a bag of worms!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 24, 2022, 04:06:22 pm
The 'Jenner Factor' is interesting.
I'm a bit of a 'Track and Field' tragic and as a struggling young 'very, very average' Decathlete my prime years coincided with Bruce Jenner's.
As a result he represented the absolute pinnacle of the sport.

He was the one we all aspired to emulate.
Now it goes without dispute that had Jenner 'transitioned' prior to puberty he/she never would have achieved that level of performance.
The unknown is how C.Jenner would have performed in female competition.
She may still have been a high performance performer...and under the guidelines adopted by FINA in swimming that would have been OK.

Here's where it gets a bit grey (and I use the term intentionally)
At Masters level of competition the athletes take such activities with a similar level of seriousness as they do at younger levels.
In fact it's quite often performers who were average athletes at Open level who excel in their older years due to maintaining a good level of fitness and training.
Jenner is now in her 70s.
I'm not sure of her level of fitness but I'd be pretty confident in guessing that simply through maintaining a minimum level, and given her technical 'muscle memory', she would be more than just competitive and challenge some of the records in the female 70-75 divison (especially in events like the throws.)

Some of us participate in sport for the fun of it.
But at all levels we have some folks for who such activities are a major part of their life.
It seems to be at the level just below 'elite' where the major issues and resentment occur.

The issue for me seems to be that while there is concern for the mental health of the transitioning athlete, there also needs to be concern for the mental health of the athletes they compete against.
I'm not sure how you balance that.
Open competition isn't the answer.
The fact is that this only goes in the one direction in terms of concern...the male transitioning to a female.
Former females competing in male competition isn't an issue.

The only realistic solution though would seem to be a 'trans specific' competition, or in fact two sets of competitions.
Then you probably run into the problem of lack of numbers to make this viable.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 24, 2022, 04:40:01 pm
As a hypothetical how long do you think that would last?

It would be a hell of a tough lesson to learn for some people, and it would take the term misogynist to a whole new level! :o


What would occur organically though, is that the cream would rise to the top.

People would hire the best athlete available to compete, man woman or other at every level.

It would be true market equality.

This would never fly though.  Its far too fair and would mean not enough participation by the people who bleat about systemic inequality and somehow confuse equity with equality.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on June 24, 2022, 05:22:54 pm
As many commentators have stated, the issue is fairness versus equality and I think fairness trumps equality.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on June 24, 2022, 06:47:59 pm
As many commentators have stated, the issue is fairness versus equality and I think fairness trumps equality.
Its a funny * to the gender equality debate.

"We want equality*"


*unless its unfair to have it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on June 24, 2022, 06:53:33 pm
One of those discussions where I think I'd rather fill a wheelbarrow with cats than get involved. IMHO I'm more than happy to defer to the thoughts, opinions and perceptions of those directly involved - women, trans folks and theys.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 24, 2022, 07:13:21 pm
One of those discussions where I think I'd rather fill a wheelbarrow with cats than get involved. IMHO I'm more than happy to defer to the thoughts, opinions and perceptions of those directly involved - women, trans folks and theys.

I guess the problem is that within those three groups you have the whole spectrum of thoughts, opinions and perceptions.
It's one of those situations where some group will be disappointed by decisions made.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on June 24, 2022, 08:35:47 pm
I guess the problem is that within those three groups you have the whole spectrum of thoughts, opinions and perceptions.
It's one of those situations where some group will be disappointed by decisions made.

Yep. I'll stick with the cats and the wheelbarrow and watch those directly involved duke it out.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 25, 2022, 06:50:14 am
Yep. I'll stick with the cats and the wheelbarrow and watch those directly involved duke it out.

There's probably one other group that's directly involved in the discussion, and that's parents and extended family as they often have to deal with the consequences on both sides of the debate.
My nephew was a 'female' until his early 20s.
That he is now a 'male' is a decision my sister still struggles with a bit, but loves and supports him, as you do as a parent (or uncle).
He's not really into any sports, so in his case this isn't really an issue but...

It goes without saying that the mental and societal struggles don't automatically end once that transition is made.
While a part of the person may have a feeling that things are now as they should always have been, there are numerous other challenges that such a change throws up.
For those looking to be involved in a competitive sport this is just another one.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 25, 2022, 08:10:47 am
There's probably one other group that's directly involved in the discussion, and that's parents and extended family as they often have to deal with the consequences on both sides of the debate.
My nephew was a 'female' until his early 20s.
That he is now a 'male' is a decision my sister still struggles with a bit, but loves and supports him, as you do as a parent (or uncle).
He's not really into any sports, so in his case this isn't really an issue but...

It goes without saying that the mental and societal struggles don't automatically end once that transition is made.
While a part of the person may have a feeling that things are now as they should always have been, there are numerous other challenges that such a change throws up.
For those looking to be involved in a competitive sport this is just another one.

yep.

The body actually rejects the change of hormones in these people as they start artificially taking hormones to become more feminine/masculine.

Chronic illness and sickness is often the result that is little talked about.

Honestly makes you wonder where this idea of transitioning comes from.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on June 25, 2022, 08:45:11 am
yep.

The body actually rejects the change of hormones in these people as they start artificially taking hormones to become more feminine/masculine.

Chronic illness and sickness is often the result that is little talked about.

Honestly makes you wonder where this idea of transitioning comes from.

You're a funny one, 3 Leos. Where does the idea of transitioning come from? Well, first step is probably to let go of the idea that having the genitals of a female or male automatically determines what you identify with, within yourself... or social conditioning.

The absolute reality is that some folks might have the bits of a gal or fella, but their very sense of self/identity is different to the bits. Reality. Requires empathy and imagination to dare to attempt to really feel what these folks, feel; to imagine feeling as you do now about your gender identity but your bits are contrary to this deep sense of identity. Then, even if you cannot imagine this, to respect the decisions of another about their identity, their body.

And the fact that so many folks would go through such physical discomfort to create an integrity between their identity and body, to me, is testament to their courage. And all they ask of me is to respect their decision. Done, and just let me know how I can support you.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 25, 2022, 06:49:17 pm
You're a funny one, 3 Leos. Where does the idea of transitioning come from? Well, first step is probably to let go of the idea that having the genitals of a female or male automatically determines what you identify with, within yourself... or social conditioning.

The absolute reality is that some folks might have the bits of a gal or fella, but their very sense of self/identity is different to the bits. Reality. Requires empathy and imagination to dare to attempt to really feel what these folks, feel; to imagine feeling as you do now about your gender identity but your bits are contrary to this deep sense of identity. Then, even if you cannot imagine this, to respect the decisions of another about their identity, their body.

And the fact that so many folks would go through such physical discomfort to create an integrity between their identity and body, to me, is testament to their courage. And all they ask of me is to respect their decision. Done, and just let me know how I can support you.
baggers, I got taught to love myself as I was and nature made me the way I was intended.

The whole idea of self loathe and change runs contrary to what I would deem being a well adjusted human being. 

There is nothing about behaviour that makes a man a man and a woman a woman.

Its only biology. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on June 25, 2022, 08:40:49 pm
baggers, I got taught to love myself as I was and nature made me the way I was intended.

The whole idea of self loathe and change runs contrary to what I would deem being a well adjusted human being. 

There is nothing about behaviour that makes a man a man and a woman a woman.

Its only biology. 


🤣
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on June 26, 2022, 07:27:55 pm
baggers, I got taught to love myself as I was and nature made me the way I was intended.

The whole idea of self loathe and change runs contrary to what I would deem being a well adjusted human being. 

There is nothing about behaviour that makes a man a man and a woman a woman.

Its only biology. 


Remember Thry, science doesn’t care about what you believe.

Did you read about the Australian grasshopper species that hasn’t had any males for millions of years?

Rigid binary gender is a western cultural/religious construct that doesn’t have much to do with biology.

I worked with a trans gender woman for several years.  She was one of happiest, creative, well-adjusted people I have ever met.  Very different to how she was as a man.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on June 26, 2022, 07:44:21 pm
How many grasshoppers have had sex change procedures?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on June 26, 2022, 08:49:03 pm
How many grasshoppers have had sex change procedures?

Not many these days, there used to be plagues of grasshopper surgeons, but pesticides have dramatically reduced the numbers.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on June 26, 2022, 09:01:03 pm
Not many these days, there used to be plagues of grasshopper surgeons, but pesticides have dramatically reduced the numbers.

Not many male praying mantises around either.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 26, 2022, 09:39:24 pm
Remember Thry, science doesn’t care about what you believe.

Did you read about the Australian grasshopper species that hasn’t had any males for millions of years?

Rigid binary gender is a western cultural/religious construct that doesn’t have much to do with biology.

I worked with a trans gender woman for several years.  She was one of happiest, creative, well-adjusted people I have ever met.  Very different to how she was as a man.

So, what you're telling me, is that science doesn't care what people believe about their identity, because their biology is what nature intended them to be?  Isn't that what the science tells us?

Djc what i say isn't about belief, and I think you've inferred something here and you are arguing a point with the wrong person.

Its not religious or about religion.  Im Greek.  We invented sexual ambiguity.

Nature has designed species that can transition organically.

Humans cannot do this. 

I know one who is chronically unwell.  The hormones give her headaches (born male).

When I say its just biology I mean it.

Ironically science doesn't care what people believe their identity should be.  Their biology disagrees.  When I state a well adjusted human accepts their body for what it is, its about self love.  Imperfections and all. 

Imagine being blind, or deaf, or born with a physical disability.   These people don't insist there is nothing wrong with them.  They simplify their life by not worrying about what they don't have, but accepting what they have, recognising that they will walk a different path than most humans and making the most of it.  When my dad died at age 56, I was 22.  My whole survival of that trauma was built on ACCEPTANCE of what I cannot change.  Why do you think seeing people fight what they CANNOT CHANGE is something I instantly dismiss?  Its not about religion, it hits me at that spot that helped me make peace with my dads passing.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on June 26, 2022, 10:07:40 pm
@thry...
What about people born with a tail?
What about people born with an extra appendage?

Sometimes nature f**ks up.
Sometimes it's easier to see and accept it's mistakes as it appears obvious. Sometimes, less so.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 26, 2022, 10:49:26 pm
This is such a complicated issue and it's also one where it's a very individual experience.
The actual physical transitioning is only one aspect.
For many it's a relief and a release.
They may gain a feeling of 'normality' that didn't previously exist.
But, consider, for others it actually might not be the change that they hoped for, and existing troubles and feelings, don't just disappear.
The issues involved with identity changes and acceptances may present overwhelming challenges.

As a society we face the dilemma to provide the best possible support and understanding, but at the same time we have to be conscious that there may be a point where there needs to be restrictions, such as occur in sport,  that don't lead to others being unfairly disadvantaged.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 27, 2022, 09:15:28 am
@thry...
What about people born with a tail?
What about people born with an extra appendage?

Sometimes nature f**ks up.
Sometimes it's easier to see and accept it's mistakes as it appears obvious. Sometimes, less so.

The science will actually prove that biology made an error here and I think being born with a tail is very different to a subjective opinion of being a male born in a female body or vice versa.

The reason why I am quick to dismiss it is actually quite scientific.  Feelings are subjective, and not objective, and there is no objective evidence that the body is wrong when the brain thinks it is.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 27, 2022, 11:15:28 am
This notion that the desire to transition means someone is looking to blame their problems on their gender flies in the face of the facts. The best case for gender dysphoria being a real thing is the fact that males who have succeeded in masculine environments have been desperate to transition. Three examples that spring to mind are Caitlyn Jenner, Dani Laidley, and Cate McGregor. Each of them succeeded in environments which are just about as aggressively masculine as you could find. And they all would have known that transitioning would mean they would lose support within those environments.

In particular, Laidley successfully carved out a career as a hard man of football, earning him the nickname of Junkyard Dog. And yet he says he felt that he was in the wrong body from the age of 6.

These people put the lie to the right wing campaign to depict the transgender community as being trendy lefties, those groomed by trendy lefties, or those seeking to rort the system by transitioning.

I want to see more tolerance in the world, not less. The thought of losing my wedding tackle is disturbing to me, but live and let live. The right wing mania for carving out outgroups who can then be used to whip up fear and hate is disgusting. The new strategy the right is using to go after the gays is that the percentage of people self-identifying as gays has Increased from the good old days in the 1950s, meaning people are being infected by a social contagion rather than living according to their own nature. Consequently, they advocate harsh discrimination against them to inoculate them from this social infection. Of course, this will be wildly successful. Gays will be forced back into the closet and will no longer admit to being gay, just like in the 1950s. Job done. I’m not LGBTIQ, a woman or a person of colour but any attempt to treat those who are as lesser beings should be denounced.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 27, 2022, 11:31:25 am
I want to see more tolerance in the world, not less. 
It's not about tolerance, nobody is rejecting anyone, it's about fairness and it always will be.

Highlighting how those who have transitioned previously succeeded in male dominated spaces actually further highlights how unfair it could actually be for female athletes!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 27, 2022, 11:41:57 am
So, because they have the will to succeed, best keep them away from less determined womenfolk? I’m sure Erin Phillips would be able to meet the challenge.

By the way, you may see the only issue as being eligibility for womens’ sports but surely you realise that there are others who focus on the wider issue of whether gender reassignment is evil in itself? My comments were directed to that issue.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on June 27, 2022, 11:43:51 am
So, what you're telling me, is that science doesn't care what people believe about their identity, because their biology is what nature intended them to be?  Isn't that what the science tells us?

Djc what i say isn't about belief, and I think you've inferred something here and you are arguing a point with the wrong person.

Its not religious or about religion.  Im Greek.  We invented sexual ambiguity.

Nature has designed species that can transition organically.

Humans cannot do this. 

I know one who is chronically unwell.  The hormones give her headaches (born male).

When I say its just biology I mean it.

Ironically science doesn't care what people believe their identity should be.  Their biology disagrees.  When I state a well adjusted human accepts their body for what it is, its about self love.  Imperfections and all. 

Imagine being blind, or deaf, or born with a physical disability.   These people don't insist there is nothing wrong with them.  They simplify their life by not worrying about what they don't have, but accepting what they have, recognising that they will walk a different path than most humans and making the most of it.  When my dad died at age 56, I was 22.  My whole survival of that trauma was built on ACCEPTANCE of what I cannot change.  Why do you think seeing people fight what they CANNOT CHANGE is something I instantly dismiss?  Its not about religion, it hits me at that spot that helped me make peace with my dads passing.

I strongly suggest you have a chat with someone who has successfully and happily (often the case) transitioned to their wanted gender. And really listen to what they went through in their life and why.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 27, 2022, 12:02:15 pm
I’m sure Erin Phillips would be able to meet the challenge.
No she wouldn't that is an entirely fake assertion. I've experienced first-hand a senior VFLW team be completely disassembled by a rather average U15 boys squad, the assertion that the girls are somehow competitive in a physically competitive sport of any sort is bogus to the nth degree. It's a fantasy not a reality, and for that reason I think society needs to preserve a pathway to elite level sport for females!

The falsity is of course exposed in physically demanding sports that aren't competitive, for example the world's best female marathon runner would literally finish kilometres behind the men. But apparently we won't ever find out, because by recent Olympic standards the fastest female in recent times made (~2:23), and didn't even meet the male qualifying time which was set at (~2:11)!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 27, 2022, 12:03:44 pm
By the way, you may see the only issue as being eligibility for womens’ sports but surely you realise that there are others who focus on the wider issue of whether gender reassignment is evil in itself? My comments were directed to that issue.
I do realise that but they are a minority opinion that carries no weight, much like the opinions of racists, much like the opinions of religious fundamentalists being played out now in the US! ;)

The nutters get their moment in the sun, but it won't last because they will move onto the next group and eventually shoot themselves in the foot, the events are the last throws of a subspecies going extinct!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 27, 2022, 12:10:32 pm
How would an U/15 boys team fare against a VFLW squad if the players on the boys team had identical football experience as the women and the boys had all been castrated and injected with estrogen?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 27, 2022, 12:55:01 pm
How would an U/15 boys team fare against a VFLW squad if the players on the boys team had identical football experience as the women and the boys had all been castrated and injected with estrogen?
What if we first let the boys grow into men, become competitive in the male dominated environment, then send them through the transition process before entering the female competition?

If the transitioning process is so overtly dominant in it's effect, where are the cases going the other way, when do we get to see an adult female transition to  male and smash Kygrios at Wimbledon? ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 27, 2022, 01:46:11 pm
I was taking your example. As you note, it wasn’t a very good one.

I’m open to scientific argument but not unscientific what-ifs. I assume the only thing that would be retained in a transition is skeletal development. At least in the next few years, the skills development and game awareness of males transitioning would be better too, but in future generations that disparity will likely be absent. I also assume musculature and bulk would diminish after a transition and after a while there would be no advantage there compared to females of the same dimensions. I’m happy to revise those assumptions if they are disproved scientifically.

Female footy at the moment doesn’t attract the tallest women as much as it will when the AFLW competition matures. When it does, tall men who transition will be up against well-trained Lauren Jackson and Liz Cambage types and only the best tall transgender players will be able to compete successfully. The alarmist fears that plodders like us will decide to transition when we’re 18 so we can dominate the AFLW will not come to pass. As we know from the AFL, tall spuds have a poor track history. The same applies at lower levels too.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 27, 2022, 02:37:44 pm
I strongly suggest you have a chat with someone who has successfully and happily (often the case) transitioned to their wanted gender. And really listen to what they went through in their life and why.

Baggers, you've made an assumption.  How do you know i haven't?  I'm sensitive enough to the plight of these people to discuss this stuff on an anonymous forum, rather than actually have that discussion and try and break a person's world in front of them.

The reality is that there is no objective way to really prove that a person was born in the wrong body, because the only thing that separates a man and a woman is biology.

Think about it, what does it mean to be a woman vs a man?

Its not about interests, its not about attire, its not about clothing, its not about behaviour, it's not about sexual orientation, it's not about jobs, its not about anything.  Every thing that is male or female is simply a gender construct.  Even trans is a construct.

Dani Laidley doesn't prove anything.  None of the famous athletes that transition proves anything.  All it shows is that societal trends are changing and these people are unhappy with their identity and looking to change it.

Id rather ask why they're unhappy and not look for a "gender disphoria" diagnosis.  Id rather understand why they're unhappy and highlight that becoming transgender won't change their biological make up.  Accepting that its not changing is part of the healing process that isn't happening IMHO.  its all very symptomatic of a society that is breeding a "ill get what I want thanks" mentality.

https://youtu.be/oqMl5CRoFdk

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 27, 2022, 02:55:45 pm
I’m open to scientific argument but not unscientific what-ifs.
What-ifs are called hypotheticals, and they form the basis of most of the arguments that are made law.
 
Most of the debate is political and social biased, I can't take it seriously and it's laughable to accept everyone involved in the process is altruistic but only if they come from one side of the debate, in fact it is quite the opposite and it's truly a case of how both sides of this debate can be disingenuous.

It will be interesting to see what happens when a professional female athlete transitions to male, then decides that they still want to compete against the girls after the effects of all those treatments, many treatments which are currently banned as performance enhancing apparently, but maybe only banned if you are not transitioning! ;)

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 27, 2022, 02:59:50 pm
I also assume musculature and bulk would diminish after a transition and after a while there would be no advantage there compared to females of the same dimensions.
Hannah Mouncey says hello!
(https://www.northweststar.com.au/images/transform/v1/crop/frm/silverstone-feed-data/ae66f5c4-db4c-414e-98e3-398f35cf166e.jpg/r0_0_800_600_w800_h600_fmax.jpg)
Just a shadow of her former self, looks like by the time she is 50 or so she will be barely able to compete! :o

Of course Hannah is only one person, ................. but then again for some sports that is all it takes to dominate ... would Hannah have displaced Tayla if if she was on our list, would Hannah be in the highest category of earners, if so at the expense of who's daughter, sister, wife or girlfriend!

It was interesting hearing Jenner call out this bullcrap, and she was immediately roasted by her own community, stating that even after transition she could put on the athletics gear and still defeat most of her equivalent male counterparts. But we probably can't take her word for it, maybe she is unscientific!

That double standard, the ability to flip or turn on an ally, it seems common in many of the fringe debates, you're either for us or you're against us!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 27, 2022, 03:47:42 pm
I'm pretty confident Jenner could take on and defeat many of her male counterparts of a similar age.
In fact there are quite a few 'female at birth' athletes who could defeat male counterparts in masters competition.
While at the highest level there is a significant gap between men and women, as you drop down the performance lists these gaps between sexes often reduce.
It's often about technique at that age.
Jenner would retain or regain a lot of good technique.

The world records for women at Jenner's age level (70+) are actually quite modest for many events.
Even allowing for decreased performance as a result of transitioning, I could see probably half a dozen field/multi events where she could break world records.
It's probably to her credit she chooses not to.

(I will just add the qualifier that I'm not sure the full extent of Jenner's transition)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 27, 2022, 04:02:48 pm
And perhaps it’s to the credit of female former high-level athletes that they don’t use their highly-honed techniques to dominate masters events too. Masters footy isn’t dominated by ex-AFL stars mainly because they don’t play Masters footy. Libba does and he was dominating in the 35s category when he was over 50. Not only did his technique serve him well, he was fitter than his opponents as well.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 27, 2022, 04:50:04 pm
Hannah Mouncey says hello!
Here's an update on your photo:
 (https://library.sportingnews.com/styles/crop_style_16_9_desktop/s3/2021-08/daniel-v-cox_1oyzhmcczoy7i1vnuvpe5jtotl.png?itok=4yYKd4vA)

I wonder whether the photographer who took the photo you put up waited for a mismatch before taking the shot. After all, we know that Mouncey was forced to play in a lower league, so it wouldn't have been too long before she was in frame with some skinny kid who could paint a David & Goliath story for the reader. Just for comparison, one girl in the Western Jets U/19s team this year measured all of 148cm!!!

But I wonder whether the photographer would have wanted to photograph Mouncey alongside Sharni Layton. Remember that Sharni Layton is only 188cm even though she rucked. But guess what Mouncey's height is. You guessed it! 188cm.

Wouldn't it be funny if Mouncey was photographed alongside Liz Cambage at 203 cm or Lauren Jackson at 196cm? That probably wouldn't have helped the story the photographer was trying to illustrate, though, would it?

You seem to think that anecdotal evidence is scientific evidence. It isn't. In fact, I'd take anecdotal evidence in preference to the picture you put up which is nothing but cherry picking.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 27, 2022, 06:15:15 pm
Mouncey is a almost a complete man physically imho regardless of what appendages she has had added or removed or what hormone treatments she is on. You cant have 22 transgender formerly male athletes taking the field vs a 22 player all womens team for example and calling that safe or fair.
We are talking open contact sports, not tennis, not high jump or sprints, table tennis, swimming, lawn bowls etc but open contact sport where size matters and people get hurt.
Yep Cambage is big and so is Lauren Jackson but if you want to see them badly hurt and slaughtered on a basketball court then stick them in vs their NBA equivalent males and see what happens.
The quickest female bowlers in test cricket rocket in between 125-128k.....are we going to allow a transgender Mitch Starc to start playing womens test cricket and rolling them down at 150k, do we want to get someone badly hurt or worse...?
Rule 1 is common sense, for high level contact sports its a no brainer IMHO and transgender athletes have to compete in their birth sex comps or transgender comps.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on June 27, 2022, 06:23:05 pm
The science will actually prove that biology made an error here and I think being born with a tail is very different to a subjective opinion of being a male born in a female body or vice versa.

The reason why I am quick to dismiss it is actually quite scientific.  Feelings are subjective, and not objective, and there is no objective evidence that the body is wrong when the brain thinks it is.

Ok, so what about those people who are born with both 'bits'?
Can they 'choose' what they wanna be?

There is a video or 2 of some Ted talks posted in the topic by someone who is exactly that.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 27, 2022, 06:41:30 pm
Would a castrated Mitchell Starc who underwent a course of estrogen injections still bowl at 150 km/h? If the answer is yes, then why does WADA ban steroids and testosterone as PEDs?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on June 27, 2022, 07:05:20 pm
Ok, so what about those people who are born with both 'bits'?
Can they 'choose' what they wanna be?

There is a video or 2 of some Ted talks posted in the topic by someone who is exactly that.

...the TED talks on this topic are excellent. Good pick-up/point, K.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 27, 2022, 07:26:03 pm
Ok, so what about those people who are born with both 'bits'?
Can they 'choose' what they wanna be?

There is a video or 2 of some Ted talks posted in the topic by someone who is exactly that.

I have watched the talks.  You can't throw a blanket over everyone but those people with both bits you mention aren't trans or don't fit that gender construct.

I watched the talks.  Saw them from start to finish.  Have had these conversations with people.  For something that is supposedly based on science a lot of it based on subjective opinion of "im in the wrong body".  The woman born with gonads is clearly not in that category.

You'll also note that identity politics is a bigger part of this than the I was born in an ambiguous body.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 27, 2022, 07:29:59 pm
Would a castrated Mitchell Starc who underwent a course of estrogen injections still bowl at 150 km/h? If the answer is yes, then why does WADA ban steroids and testerone as PEDs?
If former male transgender athletes were allowed to play female sports like test cricket it's doubtful that normal female born athletes would be able to make the team such would be the advantage the former male transgender athletes would have.
A castrated Mitch Starc  bowling at 140k would be too much for the normal female used to 125k thunderbolts.


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 27, 2022, 07:43:24 pm
So gender reassignment would only cost Starc 10 km/h? Is there some research that justifies that assumption? Could it be he'd drop 20 km/h or more? Could gender reassignment force Starc to alter his bowling action and make it hard for him to generate late swing at the lower top pace?

And when do you think that all the best male bowlers in the world are going to transition just so they can star as women? This is a scare campaign which is laughable on its face.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 27, 2022, 08:23:01 pm
As an adult transitioning, an athlete like Starc if he decides to keep up the training so he could compete as an alternate gender, would lose very little of nothing at all. Which is the key difference between an adult transitioning and some kid who goes through procedures pre-puberty!

You didn't answer my earlier question, if a female transitions to male do they still get to play women's sport if they choose to do so? The prospect of that happening is no more absurd than Mouncey wanting to play a female contact sport!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 27, 2022, 08:39:28 pm
So gender reassignment would only cost Starc 10 km/h? Is there some research that justifies that assumption? Could it be he'd drop 20 km/h or more? Could gender reassignment force Starc to alter his bowling action and make it hard for him to generate late swing at the lower top pace?

And when do you think that all the best male bowlers in the world are going to transition just so they can star as women? This is a scare campaign which is laughable on its face.
This my point they wouldn't need to be the best male bowlers or the best footballers or the best basketballers. Just bigger, stronger and capable of physical acts that far exceed what a normal non transgender female could be capable of. District cricket is full of bowlers who can bowl at speed, doesn't mean they are any good but they would scare and injure female players  just like Hannah Mouncey would playing football.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 27, 2022, 08:49:20 pm
Wow, who needs science when we can just make claims without evidence?

Apparently, a man who decides to keep up the training so he could compete as an alternate gender would lose very little or nothing at all. And they would be bigger, stronger and capable of physical acts that far exceed what a normal non transgender female could be capable of.

Please point me to the evidence rather than the supposition.

By the way, a big District cricketer who is castrated and injected with estrogen won’t necessarily scare women cricketers any more. The Romans were no longer scared of Samson after Delilah cut off his hair. They mocked him instead. Only a special deal with God enabled him to pull down the temple. I’m guessing testicles are more powerful than hair.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on June 27, 2022, 08:54:59 pm
Of course they lose something but there is a huge gap between male and female performances in most sport. If Tyson Fury became Tyra Fury you're not going to put another woman in the ring with her.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 27, 2022, 09:09:13 pm
Boxing has weight divisions. Who is able to say whether a transgender female boxer in the same weight division as an equally experienced and well-trained female in that category would have an advantage? I'm not willing to accept sweeping assumptions. I don't care how vehemently you make an assertion as vehemence does not equal proof. Trump has given bombast a bad name now.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 27, 2022, 09:17:48 pm
Wow, who needs science when we can just make claims without evidence?

Apparently, a man who decides to keep up the training so he could compete as an alternate gender would lose very little or nothing at all. And they would be bigger, stronger and capable of physical acts that far exceed what a normal non transgender female could be capable of.

Please point me to the evidence rather than the supposition.

By the way, a big District cricketer who is castrated and injected with estrogen won’t necessarily scare women cricketers any more. The Romans were no longer scared of Samson after Delilah cut off his hair. They mocked him instead. Only a special deal with God enabled him to pull down the temple. I’m guessing testicles are more powerful than hair.
Have a look at at England vs New Zealand womens cricket on Kayo right now .....new ball bowlers going at 113kmh, batswomen being beaten for pace.....and you want male transgender athletes bowling at these woman@140k plus, you have to be kidding?
I wouldnt allow my daughter to play, ask any of the fathers on this forum if they want their daughter playing in a competition that allows such a dangerous advantage to the transgender athlete.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 27, 2022, 09:22:43 pm
You assume transgender athletes would bowl at 140+ after being castrated. Where’s your evidence?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 27, 2022, 09:26:17 pm
Have a look at at England vs New Zealand womens cricket on Kayo right now .....new ball bowlers going at 113kmh, batswomen being beaten for pace.....and you want male transgender athletes bowling at these woman@140k plus, you have to be kidding?
I wouldnt allow my daughter to play, ask any of the fathers on this forum if they want their daughter playing in a competition that allows such a dangerous advantage to the transgender athlete.
Yep, I said it at the time when I saw Mouncey in a lift in the city a few years ago, no way in hell I would want my daughter playing against her. That's this fathers perspective.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 27, 2022, 09:40:38 pm
You assume transgender athletes would bowl at 140+ after being castrated. Where’s your evidence?
We've already seen transitioned athletes create records in two sports, launching much of the current controversy, and they did so in quite a comfortable fashion.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 27, 2022, 09:40:58 pm
Quote
One competitive cisgender female runner, who did not want her name used, explained how “incredibly unfair” this is to her, attributing the rule change to the IOC’s “trying to be politically correct.” Another cisgender female athlete, former Olympic judo competitor Ronda Rousey, went further (and got graphic) when she complained to the media about her competitor Fallon Fox, a trans woman, claiming: “She can try hormones, chop her pecker off, but it’s still the same bone structure a man has. It’s an advantage. I don’t think it’s fair.”

[Bruce Jenner: ‘Have an open mind and an open heart’]

But here’s why we all had it wrong: The first-ever study of transgender athletes showed that the hormone therapy that facilitates male-to-female transition does more than just suppress testosterone. Published last year in the Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities, the study showed that as testosterone levels approach female norms, trans women experience a decrease in muscle mass, bone density and other physical characteristics.

“Together these changes lead to a loss of speed, strength and endurance — all key components of athleticism,” the study’s author, Joanna Harper, wrote in The Washington Post. Harper, who is chief medical physicist at Oregon’s Providence Portland Medical Center, a trans athlete and a participant in the IOC meeting that overhauled the trans guidelines, explained to me that “it’s not the anatomy that matters, it’s the hormones.” After a year of hormone therapy, for example, female trans distance runners completely lose their speed advantage over cisgender women.
Do transgender athletes have an unfair advantage at the Olympics? (https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/do-transgender-athletes-have-an-unfair-advantage-at-the-olympics/2016/08/05/08169676-5b50-11e6-9aee-8075993d73a2_story.html?utm_term=.a86bad7d5e30&itid=lk_inline_manual_73)Washington Post, 8/8/2016.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 27, 2022, 09:50:01 pm
Do transgender athletes have an unfair advantage at the Olympics? (https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/do-transgender-athletes-have-an-unfair-advantage-at-the-olympics/2016/08/05/08169676-5b50-11e6-9aee-8075993d73a2_story.html?utm_term=.a86bad7d5e30&itid=lk_inline_manual_73)Washington Post, 8/8/2016.
And yet transition athletes are winning competitions and setting records in female sports ranging from swimming to basketball and weightlifting.

Hannah Mouncey could lose half her body weight, and some bone density, which might actually be an advantage if bone mass is reduced proportionally more than muscle strength, and she would still have a huge advantage if she chose to make use of it.

Next thing someone will be showing us videos of transitioned weightlifters coming 2nd in a competition, that is after they have set world records in the early heats. Throwing the competition to quell the controversy and to justify the politics isn't fairness, it is downright sneaky, it's like a thief wisely not splashing too much cash around!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 27, 2022, 09:55:41 pm

You assume transgender athletes would bowl at 140+ after being castrated. Where’s your evidence?
Has Hannah Mouncey been full medically reassigned? or just the hormone therapy?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 27, 2022, 09:57:26 pm
I don't have daughters, but I can clearly see the disparity in physical attributes that these transitioned athletes exhibit.

I have friends who have daughters who have trained for years to be elite athletes, yet they will almost certainly be done over by a single well trained transitioned athlete if this is allowed to persist.

But maybe that is what some people want, perhaps they think the correct place in society for daughters is pregnant and in the kitchen rather than competing in elite sports!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 27, 2022, 10:02:36 pm
Has Hannah Mouncey been full medically reassigned? or just the hormone therapy?
Does it really make a difference?

No matter what Mouncey loses or how she is treated she'll still enter the arena with a 188cm x 100kg frame loaded with male bone mass and structures that no female will ever compete with.

In the last 48hrs we've listened to the critics of AFL complain that the sport is too aggressive, that Presita's injuries colliding with another trained male are like a car crash, and people are arguing for a Mouncey type to be free to collide head on with a female opponent, accidentally or otherwise in the spur of the moment.

It's absurd this could even be genuinely considered, it's like allowing Andre the Giant to play Little League!

Sure the girls might be faster, have better aerobic capacity, be agile and evasive, but what happens in that moment one turns left when they should have turned right, even if it is an accident!

Can you imagine an accidental head clash between Mouncey and a girl? There are already issues around girls having weaker neck geometry that makes them susceptible to concussions, Mouncey is constructed like a NRL front row!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 27, 2022, 10:07:38 pm
Not sure and I’m hardly an expert in this area. As with most things outside my areas of expertise, I’d have to do a lot of research to be in any position to debate usefully. But I’d imagine we’re all in the same boat. To have a useful debate, we’d have to research the issues for a week and then come back prepared to debate. But let’s get real.  None of us is willing to do the homework. We’re left with conjecture and uninformed opinions rather than reason. At best we’ll trade opposing articles and studies without resolving anything.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on June 28, 2022, 06:56:06 pm
I have watched the talks.  You can't throw a blanket over everyone but those people with both bits you mention aren't trans or don't fit that gender construct.

I watched the talks.  Saw them from start to finish.  Have had these conversations with people.  For something that is supposedly based on science a lot of it based on subjective opinion of "im in the wrong body".  The woman born with gonads is clearly not in that category.

You'll also note that identity politics is a bigger part of this than the I was born in an ambiguous body.
Point is, nature stuffs up. Those people are proof enough that what you are saying doesn't stack up in those instances.

By extension, it's possible that nature stuffs up in other ways that are less obvious.

I'm not saying enrolments who wants to transition has a legitimate claim.
People have transitioned into reptiles, babies, aliens and whatever else that doesn't stack up to science.
However,  you need to judge each case on its merits.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 28, 2022, 08:00:57 pm
Point is, nature stuffs up. Those people are proof enough that what you are saying doesn't stack up in those instances.

By extension, it's possible that nature stuffs up in other ways that are less obvious.

I'm not saying enrolments who wants to transition has a legitimate claim.
People have transitioned into reptiles, babies, aliens and whatever else that doesn't stack up to science.
However,  you need to judge each case on its merits.

Science doesn't care what you believe.

The fact that nature makes errors in some cases doesn't explain the subjective nature away in others.

Weve discussed science a little bit here but the science can't actually tell me someone was born in the wrong body.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 28, 2022, 09:46:36 pm
Psychology asks a question and examines the answer for a pattern of understanding, questions come from people, the answers come from people and the analysis or interpretation ultimately comes from a person. It's not like a physical science where assertions and observations have to match a physical state, algorithm or formula.

The evidence in studies of the mind is always subjective, there is a significant problem when those interactions and discussions are combine with physical sciences, it is inherently dominated by the subjective!

Much of the current debate isn't even scientific, it is politics / social politics dressed up in a veneer of science!

You can mount a philosophical or logical debate about some of the various claims, but the problem is to do that with integrity you have to assume that the people involved act logically, and we know that often they don't!

Carl Sagan was 100% correct when he made the statement, "The more extraordinary a claim is, the greater the burden of proof that is associated with it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence!"
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on June 28, 2022, 10:53:18 pm
Science doesn't care what you believe.

The fact that nature makes errors in some cases doesn't explain the subjective nature away in others.

Weve discussed science a little bit here but the science can't actually tell me someone was born in the wrong body.

I already stated that some people make a call on that stuff with less than scientific backing aka transforming into lizards, babies, aliens etc.

This is not  one size fits all.

In saying some cases are legitimate.
You seem to be saying that none are.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 29, 2022, 10:21:16 am
I already stated that some people make a call on that stuff with less than scientific backing aka transforming into lizards, babies, aliens etc.

This is not  one size fits all.

In saying some cases are legitimate.
You seem to be saying that none are.

Lizards, Babies, aliens....  Not even in the same ball park.  Those wants are something else that shouldn't be entertained when the surgery or money could be better spent, and serves only to feed the mentality of "I am different, I am special, look at me" which is the only thing I think might correlate with some trans people.


I think you will find, that your idea of what I am saying is just one component of a wider problem with this discussion.

I am saying, that some of this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and people idealise the human experience and confuse that with some sort of identity which is just another construct of their own creation (with some additional programming).

Society has taught us that traditional gender roles are gone.  This is something we are embracing as a society, so by extension, which gender you identify as becomes really quite irrelevant in that world with a few exceptions likely surrounding procreation.  I think you will find that I am analysing this on a much more philosophical level than most people assume, because i come across as bigoted and potentially misogynistic but it actually isn't my intention.

Its my way.  I like to pull things apart, unpack them, because that's key to how I understand it, and I cannot understand how trans has become so prevalent in society, and the answer to me is clear as the day is long and I wonder why this isn't really being reinforced anywhere.  It's just become accepted that people trans.  Sure, that's not inherently an issue for the majority, but is it right?

The idea of what a male or female is, is 100% part of that issue.  Think about it, if you aren't a male, or aren't a female, what is your picture of the other gender?  How do they behave?  What clothes do they wear?  Thing is, is any of that even relevant to a gender, identity and know how someone would feel in a female/male world?

The answer is, it isn't.  Think about it.  I have raised this point before.  People don't actually debate it, they just dismiss it.  How can you dismiss your body, without truly having an understanding of what the other gender feels like?  The irony in that, is me dismissing a trans person for feeling that way, but that at least is understandable.  I cannot fathom their idea, thinking or understand it.  I can envision what its like to be blind.  Go to a dark place, turn the lights off, and then blindfold yourself.  Or even close your eyes.  That, you can feel and experience briefly but you never really understand that this is all you will experience if you do it and the wont even get the full experience of learning braille, unless you truly experience blindness, you dont know what it feels like. 

Being deaf is much more difficult to replicate, because our hearing is quite keen and you cant turn off the volume of the world.  Being lame we all experience in some degree for periods in our lives, but we don't know what its like to truly move around without a limb.  We briefly get a snapshot of these worlds if we want to experience it, but we don't know how it feels to be in that world 100% of the time, and this is where I tend to struggle with the idea that someone can really ever identify as a gender they don't biologically experience.

The thing is, none of us are really going to change tune.  We do agree on one aspect of this.  I will entertain that these people identify as, and refer to them as their gender of choice if that makes them happy, because I am not willing to be hurtful to people if that's what validates them.  I do question whether or not I should be validating that, but I am compartmentalising that component of it and hence why I bring it up here.  To any one trans person, it is fundamentally not my business.

Do I at least sound reasonable?




Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on June 29, 2022, 10:34:07 am
LP, a much improved elaboration.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on June 29, 2022, 04:23:42 pm
Lizards, Babies, aliens....  Not even in the same ball park.  Those wants are something else that shouldn't be entertained when the surgery or money could be better spent, and serves only to feed the mentality of "I am different, I am special, look at me" which is the only thing I think might correlate with some trans people.


I think you will find, that your idea of what I am saying is just one component of a wider problem with this discussion.

I am saying, that some of this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and people idealise the human experience and confuse that with some sort of identity which is just another construct of their own creation (with some additional programming).

Society has taught us that traditional gender roles are gone.  This is something we are embracing as a society, so by extension, which gender you identify as becomes really quite irrelevant in that world with a few exceptions likely surrounding procreation.  I think you will find that I am analysing this on a much more philosophical level than most people assume, because i come across as bigoted and potentially misogynistic but it actually isn't my intention.

Its my way.  I like to pull things apart, unpack them, because that's key to how I understand it, and I cannot understand how trans has become so prevalent in society, and the answer to me is clear as the day is long and I wonder why this isn't really being reinforced anywhere.  It's just become accepted that people trans.  Sure, that's not inherently an issue for the majority, but is it right?

The idea of what a male or female is, is 100% part of that issue.  Think about it, if you aren't a male, or aren't a female, what is your picture of the other gender?  How do they behave?  What clothes do they wear?  Thing is, is any of that even relevant to a gender, identity and know how someone would feel in a female/male world?

The answer is, it isn't.  Think about it.  I have raised this point before.  People don't actually debate it, they just dismiss it.  How can you dismiss your body, without truly having an understanding of what the other gender feels like?  The irony in that, is me dismissing a trans person for feeling that way, but that at least is understandable.  I cannot fathom their idea, thinking or understand it.  I can envision what its like to be blind.  Go to a dark place, turn the lights off, and then blindfold yourself.  Or even close your eyes.  That, you can feel and experience briefly but you never really understand that this is all you will experience if you do it and the wont even get the full experience of learning braille, unless you truly experience blindness, you dont know what it feels like. 

Being deaf is much more difficult to replicate, because our hearing is quite keen and you cant turn off the volume of the world.  Being lame we all experience in some degree for periods in our lives, but we don't know what its like to truly move around without a limb.  We briefly get a snapshot of these worlds if we want to experience it, but we don't know how it feels to be in that world 100% of the time, and this is where I tend to struggle with the idea that someone can really ever identify as a gender they don't biologically experience.

The thing is, none of us are really going to change tune.  We do agree on one aspect of this.  I will entertain that these people identify as, and refer to them as their gender of choice if that makes them happy, because I am not willing to be hurtful to people if that's what validates them.  I do question whether or not I should be validating that, but I am compartmentalising that component of it and hence why I bring it up here.  To any one trans person, it is fundamentally not my business.

Do I at least sound reasonable?

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and I think about things the same way you do.

I guess the parts we differ in is this.

You say it's more normal and thus it's becoming more normal.
Correct.....in part for the reasons you say.
However, in part because people feel they can be honest now too.
When being gay became more acceptable, did that turn more people gay or did it allows those who already were gay the freedom to come out, thus 'increasing' the amount of gay people. Similar imo.

Now going back to your gender identity qualification question.
There is no one answer that satisfies this question. I'll throw a couple things at you to think about.

1. Does it matter what they think or feel?
2. By extension, what is your take on people who suffer from (I think it's called) Alien limb syndrome? These are the people who have such an issue with one part of their body that they think its not theirs and seek to have it amputated. Only then can they feel 'whole' as such...and happy.
3. This highlights what would be considered a 'wiring' issue within the brain. Some people who have foot fetishs are believed to because of a similar wiring issue within the brain. That has people obsessing over a non-traditionally sexualising part. Is it for you to say that their feeling of that is wrong? Could they qualify why the feel that way? Could you understand if they did? They just know how they feel.
4. Does it matter WHY they think or feel that way?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 29, 2022, 10:55:58 pm
I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and I think about things the same way you do.

I guess the parts we differ in is this.

You say it's more normal and thus it's becoming more normal.
Correct.....in part for the reasons you say.
However, in part because people feel they can be honest now too.
 

Not exactly.  My body has shaped my identity more than my identity has, so I will never understand this mode of thinking of the body is wrong.  These people dont seem to have that experience for whatever reason or if they do, its to make them think its wrong.  Nope, its yours.  I was the fat kid, and I did my best to turn that around, but after 30 years of exercise I was in the category of not fat for less than about 5 years all up.  As soon as my knee started giving me issues, the fat me returned.  Thats genetics at work, nothing else.  Im currently 100kg and 178cm.   For those playing at home, I way less than Cripps, and am roughly a foot shorter than him.  Oh, and I dont look fat either.  Over weight yes, but not fat.  Only heavy training changed it, and had me at 80kgs with about 3 less cm when I was in high school. 

Quote
When being gay became more acceptable, did that turn more people gay or did it allows those who already were gay the freedom to come out, thus 'increasing' the amount of gay people. Similar imo.
https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-lesbianism
The word “lesbian” comes from the name of the Greek island Lesbos, where Sappho was born. She was an ancient Greek woman who wrote poems that included homosexual themes. The term “sapphic,” named for this poet, also refers to female homosexuality.

I disagree on this point.  Sexuality was way more hidden and less important.  It didnt define people the way it does today.  See an earlier point I made about people needing to be special or different.

Quote
Now going back to your gender identity qualification question.
There is no one answer that satisfies this question. I'll throw a couple things at you to think about.

1. Does it matter what they think or feel?
I need some context for this.  Im not sure if you are asking this about trans or gay people.  Largely, what an individual thinks or feels, is a bit different to the collective.  I know Gay people who are not openly Gay and wear it like a badge of honour, but will tell those they trust about it, and are happier just being themselves.  On this point I am in furious agreement.  We shouldnt see trans/gender, we should see human being X, and worry about their character.  Thing is, sexual orientation says less about character.  I am in the wrong body I think speaks for a bit of a problem to do with mental health and identity.  When I state I know one trans person, it isnt knowing of one person, and having spoken to a person, its I know about this person on a much deeper level.  I worked in night club down commercial road in a past life when I was youngster and met a variety of weird and wonderful people.

Quote
2. By extension, what is your take on people who suffer from (I think it's called) Alien limb syndrome? These are the people who have such an issue with one part of their body that they think its not theirs and seek to have it amputated. Only then can they feel 'whole' as such...and happy.
  First time I am hearing of such a phenomenon, but it lives in a level of ridiculous to me.  These people dont need to lose a limb, these people have serious mental health issues, and need to be supported to work through this thinking not entertained and find a hatchet.  Perhaps they should be taken to a place where people have been born without a limb, confronted by them, and should be forced to explain their thinking to people who didnt get that opportunity.  Perhaps this would be abusive.  I am not necessarily nice about this, but whenever I hear of someone who has been given a golden opportunity to live a functional normal life and choose to throw it away I feel nothing but anger, because how dare you selfish individual do something like that, when one of the boys I went to school with died at age 18 because a brain tumour had other ideas for him.  Ive heard of too many tradegies in my lifetime and feel that these people who elect to do something completely stupid (yes I lack empathy for this and no Im not sorry about it) owe it to others NOT to do this.

Quote
3. This highlights what would be considered a 'wiring' issue within the brain. Some people who have foot fetishs are believed to because of a similar wiring issue within the brain. That has people obsessing over a non-traditionally sexualising part. Is it for you to say that their feeling of that is wrong? Could they qualify why the feel that way? Could you understand if they did? They just know how they feel.
I suppose Paedophiles feel the same way.  Should we green light that too? They will feel ok with it, wont they? 

FIX THE WIRING

Quote
4. Does it matter WHY they think or feel that way?
Absoscrewinglutely it does.




Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 30, 2022, 08:01:36 am
I think this debate is now starting to highlight a fundamental problem with many of the moderate ideologies.

@Thryleon‍ has also made a nice comparison between the concepts of sexuality versus gender, and how that can lead into a very slippery slope of justifying a behaviour via a physical state.

I just can't see how it can ever be the case that there isn't some line that is either being crossed or manipulated to the benefit of an outlier, and let's be clear about this, we are talking in most case about outliers not the majority. At some stage the societal price will be too high, and if you don't believe that to be true examine the public behaviour during the pandemic.

In a post a long time back I've already touched on the psychology that leads many of the people involved in this debate to split form the mainstream, a strong desire to be different but included, so much so that whenever a category becomes too populous they create a new one and claim to be part of it, so strong is the desire to be "apart yet included". It's a psychology that is driven by a strong desire to be unique, a one off, something part of but different from, ................... special!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on June 30, 2022, 09:13:21 am
@Thryleon
Firstly, the gay stuff.
I know where the term comes from, but that is irrelevant.
The fact it is so old is also irrelevant, however, something else that is 'old' is the native american gender definitions which we've talked about before.

The point about the gay numbers is the more accepted it is, the more people feel comfortable coming out. I'm talking in recent history, like over our lifetimes. Being more public does not 'change' people into being gay, just allows them to be open about it. So more numbers does not equal more 'conversions' for lack of a better term, but rather more honesty.

Same logic to more trans people now.

1. Context is this. They are human, they feel the way they do. It does not affect anyone else in society. So why push back? Accept and deal. (This is not directed at you, but society as a whole)

2. https://www.healthline.com/health/alien-hand-syndrome
As suggested, its more about a wiring issue in the brain.
But they simply can't change the way they feel. You can't really comprehend how they feel. But they feel that way and it can't be changed.....unless.....something changes physically.

3. The difference is, as mentioned above, it doesn't hurt anyone. It is not against any rules/laws and it makes them feel better about themselves and live a better life.

4. Expand...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on June 30, 2022, 10:13:45 am
The point about the gay numbers is the more accepted it is, the more people feel comfortable coming out. I'm talking in recent history, like over our lifetimes. Being more public does not 'change' people into being gay, just allows them to be open about it. So more numbers does not equal more 'conversions' for lack of a better term, but rather more honesty.
Unfortunately, the right wingers are using the reverse logic to justify attacks on the LBQTI community in the US. They argue the greater percentage of people who self-identify as being queer than was the case in the ‘50s proves that a ‘social contagion’ is to blame. They argue that the antidote is to make life so tough for queer folk that everyone will resist “infection”. Any program that seeks to increase tolerance or address suicidality is therefore evil and needs to be ruthlessly opposed.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 30, 2022, 10:35:21 am
In fairness to @Thryleon‍ , I thinks it's quite reasonable to ask a question about the relationship between sexuality and gender, posing the question does not have to be always viewed as a subversive act.

There is a distinct relationship drawn between sexuality and gender in the media and social media, but I can't say it actually exists in reality! In think for political purposes both sides of the debate tried hard to make the same link but with different conclusions.

I suspect it would be quite hard if not impossible to make a bullet proof argument that linked identity to sexuality, you could possibly easily establish a trend, but not a rule because there will always be an exception.

If that premise is true, do we have to make laws and rules, both legal and social, for every exception?

Science is not without it's controversies, and can be reported in a distorted manner to suit politics as we well know. In this gender case I can use the example of science's understanding of pain and love. The physical science will suggest the two are different sides of the same coin, that is the pain of losing a limb is a flipside of being in love, because it turns out losing a love exhibits the same physical effects as losing a limb. Bizarre as that may be. What does this have to do with gender identity and sexuality? Well, the hurt and pain of living in the wrong body exhibits the same physical effects as losing a limb or a loved one. Here is the contradiction, pain is being more and more treated as a mental health issue rather than a physical effect, they actually proved this can be treated like an emotional state. It's a bio-psycho-social effect. Yet even though the science now identifies the effects of pain and love as a mental health issue with mental health solutions rather than physical solutions, it will tell you gender identity / dysmorphia isn't a mental health issue but a real physical issue. That contradiction seems to be a political decision and not at all following the science, in fact the direction and conclusions of the two different solutions seems quite arbitrary!

This can be quite hard to accept, because we have to understand and accept that pain, love, emotions are synthetic, just like the way we perceive colours pain and love are a construction of our mind!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 30, 2022, 10:37:36 am
@Thryleon

1. Context is this. They are human, they feel the way they do. It does not affect anyone else in society. So why push back? Accept and deal. (This is not directed at you, but society as a whole)

This recent debate probably started from a discussion regarding the fairness of transgender athletes competing in women's competition.
So in respect of that it's probably the fact that there may possibly be a disadvantage to a section of society...the female opponent of the transgender athlete.

That's the dilemma....
Equality of opportunity for the trans athlete v fairness for their possible female opponents and integrity of records.

I'm beginning to feel a bit like Baggers
It's a can of worms.

And perhaps it’s to the credit of female former high-level athletes that they don’t use their highly-honed techniques to dominate masters events too. Masters footy isn’t dominated by ex-AFL stars mainly because they don’t play Masters footy. Libba does and he was dominating in the 35s category when he was over 50. Not only did his technique serve him well, he was fitter than his opponents as well.

It's interesting...and I can only speak in terms of Masters Track and Field.
While that's only a small section of the sporting landscape  it is relevant from the point of view that most competition involving transgender athletes will be at that lower than elite, or at a community level.

I'd personally would love the opportunity to compete against a Daley Thompson or Bruce Jenner in Masters competition through their 40s, 50s and 60s.
I'd like to know whether that age factor narrowed a considerable gap between us.

But it's a fact that not many elite athletes compete in their later years.
I suspect that has a bit to do with not continuing with the sacrifices to training and competition they made at their peak, but also it's a case of 'been there done that'.

I know through discussions with female Masters athletes they'd also like to compete against champions of the past
Here's the thing though....
I'm not sure those same  female athletes in the womens 70-75 division would share that enthusiasm if Jenner was in the start lists.

But here's another complicating factor to consider....
From my understanding Jenner has taken medication and had some facial surgery but retains her male bits.
There's a very good chance she wouldn't meet the requirements for competition as a female transgender athlete.

A lot of organisations are now producing rules and standards for transgender competition.
Here's the most recent one for Track and Field.

Quote
Definition of Transgender

The term ‘Transgender’ is used in these Regulations to refer to individuals whose gender identity (i.e. how they identify) is different from the sex designated to them at birth, whether they are pre- or post-puberty, and whether or not they have undergone any form of medical intervention.

 
Participation is encouraged with conditions

World Athletics recognises that Transgender athletes may wish to compete in Athletics in accordance with their gender identity. World Athletics wishes to encourage and facilitate such participation, on conditions that go only so far as is necessary to protect the safety of all participants and to deliver on the promise of fair and meaningful competition offered by the division of the sport into male and female categories of competition.

 

Conditions of participation

A Transgender athlete who wishes to participate in an International Competition, or to be eligible to set a World Record in a competition that is not an International Competition, agrees, as a condition to such participation:

· To comply in full with these Regulations

· To cooperate promptly and in good faith with the Medical Manager and the Expert Panel in the discharge of their respective responsibilities under these Regulations, including providing them with all of the information and evidence they request to assess his/her compliance and/or monitor his/her continuing compliance with the eligibility conditions referred to in these Regulations;

 

Procedure for applying for eligibility: male transgender athletes

· A transgender male athlete must provide a written and signed declaration, in a form satisfactory to the Medical Manager, that his gender identity is male.

· As soon as reasonably practicable following receipt of such declaration, the Medical Manager will issue a written certification of that athlete’s eligibility to compete in the male category of competition in International Competition and to set a World Record in the male category in a competition that is not an International Competition.

 
Procedure for applying for eligibility: female transgender athletes

A transgender female athlete must meet the following to the satisfaction of an Expert Panel

· She must provide a written and signed declaration, in a form satisfactory to the Medical Manager, that her gender identity is female

· Along with this she must provide a comprehensive medical history

The Medical Manager will refer the file (in anonymised form) to the Expert Panel for assessment

· She must demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Expert Panel (on the balance of probabilities) that the concentration of testosterone in her serum has been less than 5 nmol/L3 continuously for a period of at least 12 months

· Also, she must keep her serum testosterone concentration below 5 nmol/L for

so long as she wishes to maintain her eligibility to compete in the female category of competition.

If the Expert Panel decides that the Transgender Female Eligibility Conditions have been met, the Medical Manager will issue a written certification of that athlete’s eligibility to compete in the female category of competition in International Competition (and to set a World Record in the female category in a competition that is not an International Competition).

That eligibility will be subject in every case to the athlete’s continuing satisfaction of the Transgender Female Eligibility Conditions, including continuously maintaining her serum testosterone at a concentration of less than 5 nmol/L.

 

The following are NOT required:

· Legal recognition of the athlete’s gender identity as the athlete’s sex

· Surgical anatomical changes


Clearly, although they state they encourage participation, such rules would be quite restrictive and even prohibitive for the average community athlete to comply with and are designed for international competition.
But there is an acknowledgement that there is some point where a transgender female athlete does have an advantage over their opposition and must take steps to enable eligibility.
No such regulations apply to the male transgender athlete.

That's just a snapshot of one sport.
Translate that over numerous sports and you get a feeling of some of the hurdles for transgender participation.

Here's one article that's very thorough, a bit wordy but puts into perspective the problems with the debate as the author seems to wrestle with their own thoughts on the issue.

https://sportsscientists.com/2019/03/on-transgender-athletes-and-performance-advantages/


 



Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on June 30, 2022, 11:16:09 am
@Thryleon
Firstly, the gay stuff.
I know where the term comes from, but that is irrelevant.
The fact it is so old is also irrelevant, however, something else that is 'old' is the native american gender definitions which we've talked about before.

The point about the gay numbers is the more accepted it is, the more people feel comfortable coming out. I'm talking in recent history, like over our lifetimes. Being more public does not 'change' people into being gay, just allows them to be open about it. So more numbers does not equal more 'conversions' for lack of a better term, but rather more honesty.

Same logic to more trans people now.

1. Context is this. They are human, they feel the way they do. It does not affect anyone else in society. So why push back? Accept and deal. (This is not directed at you, but society as a whole)

2. https://www.healthline.com/health/alien-hand-syndrome
As suggested, its more about a wiring issue in the brain.
But they simply can't change the way they feel. You can't really comprehend how they feel. But they feel that way and it can't be changed.....unless.....something changes physically.

3. The difference is, as mentioned above, it doesn't hurt anyone. It is not against any rules/laws and it makes them feel better about themselves and live a better life.

4. Expand...


Sexuality and Gender are not same same but different.  More gay people won't spurn more gay people.  More people will be curious about it, maybe even give it a go, but sexuality is unique.  Pheromones make up a larger part of attraction and I think the right mix in the right person might attract you to someone of the same gender from time to time.  This is scientifically viewable.

Trans is a bit different.  You have avoided this part of the debate in a slippery manner with different analogies, but what can being male or female mean?  Is it behaviour?  Is it attire?  The point I am making isnt about the gender, its about the gender CONSTRUCT.  The role people believe a man or woman play and ergo, by extension question if they are that role.  Not that gender.  Identity is shaped by gender, not gender by identity.  ITS BACKWARDS THINKING.  How can i convey this message in any other way? 

Back to your analogy about the American Indian community.  From the same culture, The tale of the two wolves portrays the good and evil that lives within us, represented by the conscious and the unconscious desire of man. If we are unconscious of our thoughts, we are at the mercy of feeding the evil wolf. Our unconscious thoughts are the unresolved or repressed parts of our psyche.

Lets not make it good evil but its more about how you nurture your identity and the masculine and the feminine.  Sexuality is a much more biological process.  Not all women turn me on, but I am turned on by women.  I am fundamentally straight.  Feeding a gay component of my body will not limit my attraction to the women, but it may increase my ability to be turned on by men.  I am not gay, but I can appreciate a good looking rooster, and my thought is that he would do well with the ladies (or maybe even the men if so inclined). 

Trans on the other hand becomes a cycle of questioning ones self.  Feeding the wolf.  I am a woman in a mans body is repeated to the point that it is true.  Its programming, unless you belong to the very minute percentage born with some level of genetic ambiguity.  Its not honest to become a female if you arent one or vice versa.  Its actually a bit deceitful.

Not to mention, its actually not real based on my definition of Male: Human with male genitalia or Female:  Human with female genetalia.

What is it, about a trans person that makes them feel a different gender to their biology?  Ive asked this, I dont really get an answer, just what they feel makes them happy.  I feel happy when I buy new stuff, but that isnt the key to happiness.  When I am going through a tough time, I remember to be thankful for what I have acknowledging that I am quite fortunate for the things I have, and try to dismiss the things I don't.  THAT is the key to happiness.


With that point in mind, apply that to your question 4.  Be thankful for what you have.  Others would love to have your issues instead of their own.

2.  Read your link.  As I expected this is a completely no comparison.  The hand having a "mind of its own" isnt about getting it cut off at all, is sporadic, and amputation isnt given as a treatment option in your link.  It is effectively nuero diagnosed, and potentially treatable but in some cases where the neuro pathways are broken beyond repair, not the same thing. 

3.  Foot fetish.  The fact that you even state its a wiring issue in the brain, makes me state you already have your answer to this question.  You dont approve of that either.


Are you going to tell me, how these people somehow are granted the ability to find out how it feels to be a woman when they arent one or vice versa?

I can call you she, her, if you like, that still doesnt make you understand what menstruation or menopause feels like.

LODS has answered point 1 better than I can, but walking into a cubicle with a man dressed as a woman makes me feel a little uncomfortable, and I imagine females might feel the same.  Guess I am trans after all....  :D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 30, 2022, 12:12:16 pm
It seems like "The Gold Standard" NSW has lost some of it's glitter!
Quote
Three days before the biggest flood in modern Australian history inundated the Northern Rivers, Lismore City Council was told by the NSW government that its concerns were “premature”. It was the first in a series of failures.
Just another sign of politics getting in the way of progress.

Water of course doesn't travel at the speed of light, it can't teleport instantly between open location and another, you can see it coming like a slow motion train wreck, except if you are a politician it seems! ::)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on June 30, 2022, 12:55:32 pm
Sexuality and Gender are not same same but different.  More gay people won't spurn more gay people.  More people will be curious about it, maybe even give it a go, but sexuality is unique.  Pheromones make up a larger part of attraction and I think the right mix in the right person might attract you to someone of the same gender from time to time.  This is scientifically viewable.

Trans is a bit different.  You have avoided this part of the debate in a slippery manner with different analogies, but what can being male or female mean?  Is it behaviour?  Is it attire?  The point I am making isnt about the gender, its about the gender CONSTRUCT.  The role people believe a man or woman play and ergo, by extension question if they are that role.  Not that gender.  Identity is shaped by gender, not gender by identity.  ITS BACKWARDS THINKING.  How can i convey this message in any other way? 

Back to your analogy about the American Indian community.  From the same culture, The tale of the two wolves portrays the good and evil that lives within us, represented by the conscious and the unconscious desire of man. If we are unconscious of our thoughts, we are at the mercy of feeding the evil wolf. Our unconscious thoughts are the unresolved or repressed parts of our psyche.

Lets not make it good evil but its more about how you nurture your identity and the masculine and the feminine.  Sexuality is a much more biological process.  Not all women turn me on, but I am turned on by women.  I am fundamentally straight.  Feeding a gay component of my body will not limit my attraction to the women, but it may increase my ability to be turned on by men.  I am not gay, but I can appreciate a good looking rooster, and my thought is that he would do well with the ladies (or maybe even the men if so inclined). 

Trans on the other hand becomes a cycle of questioning ones self.  Feeding the wolf.  I am a woman in a mans body is repeated to the point that it is true.  Its programming, unless you belong to the very minute percentage born with some level of genetic ambiguity.  Its not honest to become a female if you arent one or vice versa.  Its actually a bit deceitful.

Not to mention, its actually not real based on my definition of Male: Human with male genitalia or Female:  Human with female genetalia.

What is it, about a trans person that makes them feel a different gender to their biology?  Ive asked this, I dont really get an answer, just what they feel makes them happy.  I feel happy when I buy new stuff, but that isnt the key to happiness.  When I am going through a tough time, I remember to be thankful for what I have acknowledging that I am quite fortunate for the things I have, and try to dismiss the things I don't.  THAT is the key to happiness.


With that point in mind, apply that to your question 4.  Be thankful for what you have.  Others would love to have your issues instead of their own.

2.  Read your link.  As I expected this is a completely no comparison.  The hand having a "mind of its own" isnt about getting it cut off at all, is sporadic, and amputation isnt given as a treatment option in your link.  It is effectively nuero diagnosed, and potentially treatable but in some cases where the neuro pathways are broken beyond repair, not the same thing. 

3.  Foot fetish.  The fact that you even state its a wiring issue in the brain, makes me state you already have your answer to this question.  You dont approve of that either.


Are you going to tell me, how these people somehow are granted the ability to find out how it feels to be a woman when they arent one or vice versa?

I can call you she, her, if you like, that still doesnt make you understand what menstruation or menopause feels like.

LODS has answered point 1 better than I can, but walking into a cubicle with a man dressed as a woman makes me feel a little uncomfortable, and I imagine females might feel the same.  Guess I am trans after all....  :D

My reasoning for bringing in 'gay' and alien limb/hand syndrome is this. Its a 'feeling' and one that you can't quite explain to someone who doesn't feel the same way. WHY are you attracted to females? WHY do you feel your hand is not your own?
Trying to explain WHY one person feels this or that is not easily done....and that extends to this debate.
FWIW, that link was just for an overview of the disease. Look into it further and you'll find as i described....happy people once their 'issue' is no longer there, ie amputated.

All of the above is down to your brain.....after all its responsible for all your feelings one way or another, so if there is something 'different' about people and how they feel, thats where you'll find it.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'not approving'.

So again, why does trans person FEEL the way they do? Why does anyone FEEL the way they do??
Trying to explain to a blind person the concept of red is impossible. Yet you know it, i know it and majority of people do.
There are some things that people simply cannot comprehend unless they experience it themselves.

Last question....
male = male bits
female = female bits

What about those that have both? Or parts of both? What are they??
Suddenly its not so black and white.

Look, i'm no expert in the manner and don't pretend to be.
Like you, i like analysing things and sorted through it all.

For me, there is very much a grey area between men and women, even in terms of non-traditional chromosome makeup (xx vs xy).

Do i think its simply fashionable to be trans? No.
Do i think its something that has only recently become a thing? No.
Do i think every person has legitimate claims and there are no people doing it for the wrong reasons? No.
Is it potentially a 'wiring issue' within the brain? Sure. Does that mean they feel it any less? No.
Phantom pain still hurts as much as actual pain, even if there is no legitimate reason behind it (or at least that we know of).

Simply, i don't know, but i give the benefit of the doubt based on what i do know.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 08, 2022, 09:39:19 am
Have you ever heard of a gag of flags?

It's happening right now in Yarra Council, a gag as in a joke and a gag as in a choke, diversity and political correctness self-destructing as the council fails to agree on who's what!

Soon it will be one flag flying for every resident, they are all unique and special, very special! ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 13, 2022, 12:49:01 pm
Amazing example of how politics plays into science reporting.

I notice that NASA has released a bunch of James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) images. These are outstanding, but they left me a little blah, not because the images aren't great but because there was nothing to compare them to. I thought NASA missed a trick by not making direct comparisons between images from JWST and HST, like for like. 

However, when a queried an associate who works as a professional astronomer it was explained to me that the scientists do not want to diminish the remaining worth of the HST. So the decision was made to deliberately not make any overt direct comparison in the initial public offerings. It's probably there somewhere buried in the background info, but they won't highlight it. Because they don't want funding for HST cut prematurely, and they fear this might happen if public perceive HST as redundant.

It's bit sad and a bit cynical, is it an opportunity lost?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on July 14, 2022, 12:30:00 am
Amazing example of how politics plays into science reporting.

I notice that NASA has released a bunch of James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) images. These are outstanding, but they left me a little blah, not because the images aren't great but because there was nothing to compare them to. I thought NASA missed a trick by not making direct comparisons between images from JWST and HST, like for like.

However, when a queried an associate who works as a professional astronomer it was explained to me that the scientists do not want to diminish the remaining worth of the HST. So the decision was made to deliberately not make any overt direct comparison in the initial public offerings. It's probably there somewhere buried in the background info, but they won't highlight it. Because they don't want funding for HST cut prematurely, and they fear this might happen if public perceive HST as redundant.

It's bit sad and a bit cynical, is it an opportunity lost?

My oldest brother is an astronomer and he would never compromise science for political purposes.  If anything, he is dedicated to using science against political agendas.

I haven't spoken to him about the James Webb Telescope images but I noticed a comparison of James Webb Space Telescope images to Hubble's pictures: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-13/nasa-webb-hubble-telescope-universe-image-comparison/101233396
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 14, 2022, 08:04:51 am
My oldest brother is an astronomer and he would never compromise science for political purposes.  If anything, he is dedicated to using science against political agendas.

I haven't spoken to him about the James Webb Telescope images but I noticed a comparison of James Webb Space Telescope images to Hubble's pictures: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-13/nasa-webb-hubble-telescope-universe-image-comparison/101233396
Yes, maybe that comparison is a 3rd party effort, I can't see how what they did compromised the science at all. In fact they are trying to preserve as much of it as possible. For me the lost opportunity was about outreach, and I fully understand the risks to ongoing funding by having JWST make HST look redundant.

As much as I'm sure your brother's heart is true, everyone I know in science generally does stay true as they are so invested in the process of discovery, however most NASA administrators are political appointments and often career bureaucrats not scientists, and we know the business of space science is big big dollars! ;)

Personally, I'd like to see HST signed over to the UN and be funded globally, I'm sure someone like SpaceX could with it's low cost operations treat it's servicing as marketing exercise. Someone just needs to fund it, and at that time access can be opened up to HST for outreach and training purposes. But it's going to be tough when even countries like Russia threaten to pull the pin on things like the ISS.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on July 14, 2022, 08:09:26 am
LP, you’re creating issues that don’t exist
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 14, 2022, 08:16:10 am
LP, you’re creating issues that don’t exist
There is no issue, it's just an observation about the release of the data, and the explanation I was given about how it was staged and why.

Much of the funding gets secured through the decadal survey, but it's not entirely immune to the effects of public perception.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on July 14, 2022, 06:38:13 pm
There is no issue, it's just an observation about the release of the data, and the explanation I was given about how it was staged and why.

Much of the funding gets secured through the decadal survey, but it's not entirely immune to the effects of public perception.

If you read nasa's fb feed or website youll see plenty of posts promoting both telescopes.
There was one article that had a screenshot of a Hubble tweet (I think) congratulating the new kid on the block and looking forwards to working together into Hubbles old age.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 14, 2022, 09:21:40 pm
If you read nasa's fb feed or website youll see plenty of posts promoting both telescopes.
There was one article that had a screenshot of a Hubble tweet (I think) congratulating the new kid on the block and looking forwards to working together into Hubbles old age.
I think you've missed the point of the discussion, you need to read my opening post on the issue not DJC reply.

I never claimed NASA was bashing or demoting the HST, I was discussing why they didn't provide the general public with some context by making direct comparisons between JWST and HST during the JWST image launch.

It's understandable, a lot of people still depend on funding that is basically delivered courtesy of the general public's opinion.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 15, 2022, 03:25:42 pm
It just goes to show you how fickle the media can be!

Whether you agree or disagree with Bec Judd and her argy-bargy about Brighton crime, I've got say I feel for her now because it looks like some of the media are turning on her to paint her as some sort of elitist who bashes the downtrodden. When it was Bec versus Dan the media were all Bec Boosters, now as the more details emerge about some of those unfortunates involved in the crime it's become a media Bec Bashing time. All driven by a bunch of politically correct woke commentators.

The media are not held accountable for what they say or write, and not only is it damaging but potentially deadly for someone like Bec Judd, you just need one psycho to take on the media cause and next thing you've got another stalker to report about!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 15, 2022, 05:12:00 pm
Bec didn't do herself any favours when she
complained on social media about red dust in her pool when bushfires were raging and lesser well off folk were losing everything.
It wasn't malicious but she just couldn't read the room or have awareness of others issues and the magnitude of despair they were suffering.
Bec needs a bit of education in how the other half live and why her home was targeted rather than a bashing in the media. I remember reading that Jerry Seinfeld bought an expensive flash mansion/property years ago that he bulldozed to the ground and was asked why and his reply was "because I can"....
Hopefully Bec never gets to that level and can learn a bit more about being humble and I reckon then her local crime problems might go away...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 16, 2022, 07:51:11 pm
https://www.iflscience.com/the-cheapest-way-to-a-zeroemission-world-needs-nuclear-power-claims-new-study-62641
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 17, 2022, 09:44:28 am
Bec didn't do herself any favours when she
complained on social media about red dust in her pool when bushfires were raging and lesser well off folk were losing everything.
It wasn't malicious but she just couldn't read the room or have awareness of others issues and the magnitude of despair they were suffering.
Bec needs a bit of education in how the other half live and why her home was targeted rather than a bashing in the media. I remember reading that Jerry Seinfeld bought an expensive flash mansion/property years ago that he bulldozed to the ground and was asked why and his reply was "because I can"....
Hopefully Bec never gets to that level and can learn a bit more about being humble and I reckon then her local crime problems might go away...

Exactamundo. Snobbery is never attractive.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on July 17, 2022, 02:10:16 pm
Exactamundo. Snobbery is never attractive.

We, collectively,  create the society we all have to live in. Complaining snobs never really help in improving things.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on July 26, 2022, 06:59:00 pm
What an absolute schemozzle is the Manly NRL pride jersey debacle.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 26, 2022, 07:20:40 pm
What an absolute schemozzle is the Manly NRL pride jersey debacle.
Its a tricky and complicated one. You'd like to think people can separate sport, work commitments, religious beliefs etc but...
For some this is very simple, for others its a nightmare. I can see both sides, I'd hate to be Manly management right now.
As someone said today, what are the 7 players against, the jumper itself and the fact its forced on them against the wishes, LGBTI people playing footy, LGBTI people in general?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 26, 2022, 07:26:22 pm
Its a tricky and complicated one. You'd like to think people can separate sport, work commitments, religious beliefs etc but...
For some this is very simple, for others its a nightmare. I can see both sides, I'd hate to be Manly management right now.
As someone said today, what are the 7 players against, the jumper itself and the fact its forced on them against the wishes, LGBTI people playing footy, LGBTI people in general?
They probably don't wanna catch the gay.  ::)

Even though they stick their heads up eachothers butts while going arm in arm....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 26, 2022, 11:20:16 pm
You’d think they might have had a moral objection to the large “POINTS BET” emblazoned on the front of the guernsey, but it seems they’re cool with that …
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 27, 2022, 08:10:53 am
You’d think they might have had a moral objection to the large “POINTS BET” emblazoned on the front of the guernsey, but it seems they’re cool with that …
Isn't the issue religion, I'm not sure there are any mentions of bookmarkers in the bible or quran.

I'm not sure about other religions, but I do know from a school friend who went onto become a catholic priest that in the catholic church punting is one of the few vices they do not frown on.
 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 27, 2022, 08:39:47 am
You’d think they might have had a moral objection to the large “POINTS BET” emblazoned on the front of the guernsey, but it seems they’re cool with that …

Hear! Hear! Spoticus Onnicus.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 27, 2022, 08:43:23 am
Its a tricky and complicated one. You'd like to think people can separate sport, work commitments, religious beliefs etc but...
For some this is very simple, for others its a nightmare. I can see both sides, I'd hate to be Manly management right now.
As someone said today, what are the 7 players against, the jumper itself and the fact its forced on them against the wishes, LGBTI people playing footy, LGBTI people in general?

A failure of good management/governance. Apparently there was no consultation with the players, just, "Here, wear this." Much of the kerfuffle could have been avoided with inclusion, discussion and explanation with the players.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 27, 2022, 10:44:54 am
A failure of good management/governance. Apparently there was no consultation with the players, just, "Here, wear this." Much of the kerfuffle could have been avoided with inclusion, discussion and explanation with the players.
Agree, its ironic that we talk about this jumper thing being all about inclusion except they forgot to include the players.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on July 27, 2022, 02:05:10 pm
The strange thing is that the Methodist missionaries who implanted those homophobic beliefs were also strongly anti-gambling.  Selective outrage by the seven no-shows?

If anything, it’s a spectacular communications fail.

Sea Eagles’ legend Ian Roberts has said that he would have loved to talk to the players about rugby and homosexuality.  Surely the club would have thought of that, and the strong religious beliefs of some South Pacific Islanders, before committing to their rainbow jersey?

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 27, 2022, 03:42:55 pm
Ian Roberts would also concede the minority perspective as he well knows he is in that minority, oddly here in Oz the 7 are in a minority as well yet our society now judges their minority belief as invalid, and that seems rather arbitrary like we have picked a side!

I didn't hear anybody wish harm on another, why are we so determine to force an opinion?

Can't we just leave them be, or must we beat the belief out of them, like a Missionary beating the heathen horde?

There is something fundamentally misplaced here, to all the world it looks like two wrongs .................................
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 27, 2022, 03:56:16 pm
Is Clarko to Norp a win for most traditional clubs?

Clarko goes to Norp, win for Norp.
Clarko doesn't go to Tassie, win for every other club that needs to retain it's players in years to come.

If I were an AFL CEO or list manager, I'd be pushing like hell for Clarko to Norp ahead of Clarko to an AFL subsidised start-up!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 27, 2022, 04:01:01 pm
As many of us get old we can become a bit grumpy, a bit cantankerous, it can be masked by a mellow indifference, but we have to learn to manage our newly found intolerance towards others.

Seeing Rex lose the plot yesterday, and reading about Jay Schultz self-control issues today, has it become too convenient, a bit of an excuse even, to blame all sorts of invalid anti-social behaviour on the head knocks of the past? Am I being too harsh?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 27, 2022, 04:02:57 pm
I think the players have a right to choose not to wear the jersey if it conflicts with their religious beliefs etc, same as if a player didnt want to wear a jersey that had gambling sponsorship because he disagreed with gambling sponsorship in sport or alcohol/tobacco sponsorship.. I wouldnt have a problem wearing the jersey as its just a footy jersey at the end of the day not a religious ornament but I would understand devout Christians, Muslims etc would and for me its a personal choice everyone has to make for themselves and they have a right to refuse to wear it just as other players have a right to wear it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on July 27, 2022, 04:27:35 pm
Wonder what the contractual position might be re what clubs can display on jerseys without consulting players?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 27, 2022, 05:57:05 pm
If you take the standard Protestant Bible, it has about 31000 verses. There are 6 or 7 verses out of 31000 (the so called Clobber passages), that seem to discuss aspects of same sex behavior (these verses are almost always misinterpreted) That gives you some idea of how concerned the Biblical writers were about such behavior. You will find way more references and condemnation of other behaviors, and yet these seem to be of no interest to Christians, and certainly don't appear to be part of any modern ethical discussions, at least that I'm aware of. Biblical scholarship has advanced significantly in the last 100 years. Whoever is leading these players and telling them what to think is a disgrace.

If you make a claim that the "Bible is very authoritative to us", then you can't just pick and choose. Either every one of its edicts needs to be followed, or else it needs to be read in a different way. If you choose the former :

a. those players and their pastor don't have a leg to stand on, and
b. none of us would be alive.

And beliefs have real world consequences. They're not ideas that just exist in your mind.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 27, 2022, 07:52:59 pm
Ian Roberts would also concede the minority perspective as he well knows he is in that minority, oddly here in Oz the 7 are in a minority as well yet our society now judges their minority belief as invalid, and that seems rather arbitrary like we have picked a side!

I didn't hear anybody wish harm on another, why are we so determine to force an opinion?

Can't we just leave them be, or must we beat the belief out of them, like a Missionary beating the heathen horde?

There is something fundamentally misplaced here, to all the world it looks like two wrongs .................................
Great points LP, how do we live together respectful of one another? Thats the question.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 27, 2022, 08:43:37 pm
Bravo on the false equivalence. Pacific Islanders are hostile to gays and condemn them as evil sinners. Gays aren’t hostile to Pacific Islanders (save perhaps when they’re being attacked by them). Calling on both groups to be tolerant of the other is bizarre.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 27, 2022, 08:48:18 pm
Bravo on the false equivalence. Pacific Islanders are hostile to gays and condemn them as evil sinners. Gays aren’t hostile to Pacific Islanders (save perhaps when they’re being attacked by them). Calling on both groups to be tolerant of the other is bizarre.
Hostile, FMD!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on July 27, 2022, 09:00:45 pm
I was asked if I wanted to wear a rainbow pin at work once.

I declined.

Not because I dont support gay rights (I dont support all of them equally and that is one of my gripes with it).

I also don't like the mentality of you are either with or against them.

I demand the right to live and let live without celebrating it.  I dont want to, I dont have to.  Why do I have to? 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on July 27, 2022, 09:12:22 pm
You know...the irony of this whole debacle is that there will eventually come a time when we don't feel the need for 'pride' rounds and 'pride' jumpers.
That's what equality and acceptance really looks like.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 27, 2022, 09:15:43 pm
Let’s keep an eye on suicide rates as that’ll give us a bit of a heads-up that acceptance is at hand.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 27, 2022, 09:33:38 pm
A surprising article appeared on the news.com.au site in which the opposing coach talked good sense.

Quote
Sydney Roosters coach Trent Robinson condemns ‘unacceptable’ pride jersey boycott
Sydney Roosters coach Trent Robinson has weighed in on the Manly Sea Eagles pride jersey saga and sent a strong message to the players who stood down.
Robinson’s team will take on the decimated Sea Eagles squad on Thursday night after seven players stood down after the club unveiled a pride jerseyas a one-off for the round 20 clash.
Dealing with the player revolt fallout, the club scrambled to piece together a line-up for the first game of round 20.
Josh Aloiai, Jason Saab, Christian Tuipulotu, Josh Schuster, Haumole Olakau’atu, Tolutau Koula and Toafofoa Sipley were reportedly opposed to wearing the jersey due to religious beliefs.
Manly coach Des Hasler fronted the media on Tuesday and said the intent behind the pride jersey was to “support the advocacy and human rights pertaining to gender, race culture, ability and LGBTQ movements”.
On Wednesday, Robinson weighed in on the scandal and conveyed his dismay this was an issue in 2022.
“It is great what the owners of Manly have decided to do and it is unfortunate that it has panned out this way because everyone is equal, no matter what race, gender, sexual preference, everyone is equal,” Robinson said.
“Let people make their choice and let’s not discriminate against those, and we are still doing that, and that is why it is unfortunate.
“We have got Gotcha4Life, that both teams [are supporting] … sponsors have given up their space for Gotcha4Life.
“We are really looking forward to representing, and talking about even just male suicide and the high rate that it is.
“But in the youth gay community it is five times the level of what normal society is, that is because they don’t feel included.
“And for us in 2022 to not be inclusive and not say it is OK to be who you are is unacceptable
“We need to move towards a better place … I want to say that we are inclusive, we do accept you for who you are and we care about you, and we need to move forward in that way.”
Robinson was asked if his own team would wear a pride jersey, he revealed he had spoken with his own playing group in depth about the matter.
“Definitely … because we need to move forward, that is my personal view,” he said.
“I have talked to my players about it, we have talked about it openly.
“Because we have a job to do, we want to play a Roosters style of footy and dominate tomorrow night, but whether we like it or not we do have sponsors on jerseys, we do have things on jerseys that we represent.
“And you know that is a decision for clubs and the game to make, but my personal opinion I am about equality, and I want people to feel like they are cared for, and loved, and have a place no matter what their sexual preference.”
Robinson compared the outrage this week to what might have occurred years ago with other minority groups that are now rightfully accepted.
“This is not about rugby league, this is a snapshot that highlighted a wider rugby league issue, this is a societal issue that has been highlighted by our sport and other sports around the world,” he said.
“It is still an issue.
“If someone said they weren’t going to wear the indigenous jersey, there would have been an outcry.
“40 years ago, that would have been the case, 80 years ago we wouldn’t have had Women in League round, we have moved on those front, we haven’t moved on this.
“We want to dominate a game tomorrow but we need to be inclusive as a human race, no one is better than anyone else.
“There is a lot of work to be done still.”
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 28, 2022, 10:48:05 am
I was asked if I wanted to wear a rainbow pin at work once.

I declined.

Not because I dont support gay rights (I dont support all of them equally and that is one of my gripes with it).

I also don't like the mentality of you are either with or against them.

I demand the right to live and let live without celebrating it.  I dont want to, I dont have to.  Why do I have to? 


I totally understand (and respect) your view here, 3 Leos, but am 180 degrees differing, for 2 chief reasons. Neither of us is wrong or right. Personal choice.

1. I have two gay family members. When I publicly acknowledge their situation (lapel, wrist band, ribbon etc.,) it demonstrates something very important to them. They feel supported, which is important to both of us.

2. Having had and still having a number of lgbtqia+ clients I am very aware of how marginalized they feel and some of the traumatic things that they've been through, and still happen to them. If a sincere and authentic gesture on my part helps them to feel supported... yummy. Not much for me to wear a public acknowledgement of some kind.

Although this is not the same, the principle is similar. Being a returned serviceman from a war zone, on Anzac Day when I see folks wearing lapel badges / poppies, I do feel a sense of gratitude and acknowledgment. When folks refuse to acknowledge Anzac Day for their views on wars, or whatever, I get it and understand. Even agree to an extent. But it's just helpful for those of us living with PTSD (due to military trauma) to be acknowledged occasionally.

(to me the Anzac Day acknowledgement is not only about what we did/service, but what we live with... and believe me on return from service many of us were marginalized, and when some folks learn I have PTSD they do treat me differently, many very unkindly owing to their failure to understand what PTSD is like or just IS... and who could blame them? Many folks jump to all manner of assumptions as to how we got PTSD and what danger we might pose to the community... which is hurtful and ridiculous).
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 28, 2022, 11:13:45 am
If you came in from the cold oblivious about the history and circumstance you could be forgiven for reading this debate and concluding there was a war going one between minority factions, that is how absurd, alarmist and extremist the debate has become and is portrayed!

In the internet age the extremism has also become a common tactic in efforts of social engineering enacted by both sides, they are equally guilty.

I believe there is no winning in this debate because it is circular, the simple way to move forward is to just to exhibit some basic respect and care for other people and do your very best not to impose your own beliefs and social practises on those around you.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 28, 2022, 11:37:32 am
Thankfully, most of us haven’t just come in from the cold oblivious about the history and circumstance.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 28, 2022, 11:44:10 am
Thankfully, most of us haven’t just come in from the cold oblivious about the history and circumstance.
Also thankfully most of us are not melodramatic.

The sky is not falling, it's not the thin edge of the wedge, in a wider perspective it is almost inconsequential.

The freedom of choice being demanded by some is being exhibited by others, and the people taking / making that choice have imposed nothing on those around them!

They aren't trying to stop the event, they have just stated they do not want to participate.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 28, 2022, 11:56:00 am
The LGBT community does not discriminate against Pacific Islanders.

Like most modern Christians, these players have a very limited understanding of the Bible. I would bet London to a Brick that none of them have read more than 10%. If you read the Bible from start to finish, it has the character of a running debate. It is a postmodern anthology - many different authors over a 1000 year period, many different opinions, many different perspectives, quite often at odds with each other. When you hear someone say they live according to the Bible, what they really mean is that they focus on a very small selection of texts, usually spoon fed to them in Church or Sunday School, and typically focusing on "hot button issues", which are the same texts that are used year after year, a kind of Greatest Hits medley of verses which excludes by my estimation about 90% of scripture. It's a great tragedy that folks think they can just pick up a Bible and know what it means.

Slave owners in the antebellum south taught that slavery was the will of God, and they quoted the Bible to prove it. Others throughout history have taught that Jews were evil and quoted the Bible to prove it. Others have taught that gay people are either mentally ill or morally depraved, and quoted the Bible to prove it. You can also find Biblical quotations to show that women are inferior to men and must exist as second class citizens. People aren't born homophobic, or anti Semitic, or misogynistic, or pro slavery.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 28, 2022, 12:08:20 pm
In my own perspective I can't say any of the bible is valid, but that's my own perspective and I do not impose it on others.

I'm not sure the debating of the how a belief is obtained invalidates the freedom of choice provided that choice doesn't harm others. As I've mentioned, there are no calls from those wishing to abstain for the event to be stopped, just a handful of people stating they would rather not participate.

As far as I can tell the accused people didn't even make their belief public, they are now being shamed for having it having been exposed by some 3rd party, maybe even or perhaps probably a disgruntled punter who's multi-bet has been mangled!

Do we roll out the stocks from now on whenever a personal and private belief offends?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 28, 2022, 12:14:14 pm
They don't need to come out and say "we hate gays". Their behavior and actions speak louder then words.

When a belief caused clearly documented harm to others, it is completely appropriate to call that belief into question. Believers are not entitled to a "get out of jail" free card. It's not good enough to claim you are entitled to your beliefs. You can't have a harmful belief without blood on your hands.

The well being of others, especially minority, marginalized groups, trumps beliefs, all day every day.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 28, 2022, 12:23:07 pm
They don't need to come out and say "we hate gays". Their behavior and actions speak louder then words.
I'm not a fan of string beans or brussel sprouts and avoid them, but for someone to claim that because I'm not a bean / sprout booster I must be a bean / sprout hater would be a bit of a stretch.

I think your assertion is a good example of taking things to an extreme to impose a viewpoint or win a debate.

Catholics avoid red meat on Fridays but that doesn't mean they hate red meat, pork is avoided in some religions but it doesn't mean they hate pigs.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 28, 2022, 12:32:25 pm
I'm not a fan of string beans or brussel sprouts and avoid them, but for someone to claim that because I'm not a booster I must be a hater would be a bit of a stretch.

I think your assertion is a good example of taking things to an extreme to impose a viewpoint or win a debate.

Catholics avoid red meat on Fridays, but that doesn't mean they hate red meat, pork is avoided in some religions but it doesn't mean they hate pigs.

This is the same line of argumentation used by slavery apologists - slavery wasn't that bad because it was really indentured servitude, the slave owners were very nice to the slaves and always greeted them with a smile and a warm hello, invited them into the house to eat etc. All of which is well and good, and better than the alternative, but it has nothing to do with the fact that by any recent standard, the idea of one human owning another, and the owned human being the literal property of the owner is completely wrong.

The fact that these players may only have a "mild" objection to gays is better than the alternative, but it's not the point.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on July 28, 2022, 02:10:37 pm
Here's an interesting analysis of the Manly "pride jersey" issue:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-28/respect-the-lesson-from-the-manly-pride-jersey-debacle/101276392?utm_source=abc_news_web&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link

I wasn't aware that Pasifika players make up 50% of NRL ranks.  I guess that makes the failure to see the potential fallout an even greater communications fail.

Dr David Lakisa is quoted in the article and one quote caught my eye:

Quote
"Interestingly, Pacific queerness is not new. Fa'afafine (Samoan) or fakaleiti (Tongan), translated as 'like a lady', are individuals who identify themselves as having a third gender or non-binary role in Samoan or Tongan diaspora.

This group often thrive, are highly visible and are accepted in Pacific society."

Clearly, there's a conflict between traditional Pasifika values and beliefs arising from missionary teachings but the respect that the  "pride jersey" is intended to build is already entrenched among those who have chosen not to wear the jersey.

Humans are complicated beings.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 28, 2022, 02:56:46 pm
Apart from the quotes by Ian Roberts, that ABC article sounds like a bit of PR happy talk. Everybody's very respectful of each other, which is clearly better than starting a war of words, exchanging hostilities etc., but there's nothing in that article that suggests a solution, for a jersey that supposedly wasn't just about LGBT people, but all marginalized groups. The players may not have bad intentions, but consequences matter a whole lot more IMO.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 28, 2022, 03:04:17 pm
This is the same line of argumentation used by slavery apologists - slavery wasn't that bad because it was really indentured servitude, the slave owners were very nice to the slaves and always greeted them with a smile and a warm hello, invited them into the house to eat etc. All of which is well and good, and better than the alternative, but it has nothing to do with the fact that by any recent standard, the idea of one human owning another, and the owned human being the literal property of the owner is completely wrong.
I love the way those who insist that the Bible is the word of God tie themselves in knots trying to explain away the  way the Bible concentrates on the ethical keeping of slaves rather than declaring slavery is evil. One way of explaining it away would be to recognise that much of the social commentary is necessarily a reflection of the society that existed a couple of Millenia ago. Slavery was commonplace back then and simply banning it wouldn’t have been pragmatic. But that would undermine the notion of an unbending moral code imposed by God. But surely God would not be worried about pragmatism: S/he would just have declared slavery to be evil.

So there’s now an attempt to reinterpret slavery as a positive thing in the Bible. We’re told that the Bible wasn’t dealing with slaves - it was dealing with “bondservants”, those who became slaves voluntarily for a set period to work off a debt to the new Master. Who said PR spin was invented by advertising gurus? Why did an all-knowing and loving God think that debt recovery should include set-term slavery? Surely God could instead have  mandated a form of bankruptcy law in the Bible in which the debtor was required to make some reparations out of his assets or income for a set period while preserving his freedom to live and work as he wished? Maybe modern society is now more moral than in biblical times. We don’t accept the nonsense from human traffickers that they are entitled to enforce the voluntary bond servant agreements that the desperate victims entered into.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 28, 2022, 03:07:06 pm
I couldnt see Adam Saad wearing that jumper or Matt Kennedy, Saad would have every right if forced to wear it to ask for a muslim pride jumper to affirm the leagues attitude to players of the muslim faith and how far do you go in terms of satisfying everyone with a cause to push and determining its importance.
Liam Jones and Deni Varnhagen might want a no vaccine pride jumper since they are part of a marginalized, minority......how about just wearing the normal jumper and treating everyone decently and using some common sense.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on July 28, 2022, 03:12:01 pm
@EB
Yep. Beware pride and subsequent  falls etc etc.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on July 28, 2022, 03:20:29 pm
I couldnt see Adam Saad wearing that jumper or Matt Kennedy, Saad would have every right if forced to wear it to ask for a muslim pride jumper to affirm the leagues attitude to players of the muslim faith and how far do you go in terms of satisfying everyone with a cause to push and determining its importance.
Liam Jones and Deni Varnhagen might want a no vaccine pride jumper since they are part of a marginalized, minority......how about just wearing the normal jumper and treating everyone decently and using some common sense.

Didn't Saad wear the orange trimmed Carlton respects jumper?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 28, 2022, 03:23:55 pm
Because Jones and gays are in such a similar position? Jones leaned in to a conspiracy theory spread on social media and was unwilling to help protect his fellow players and the competition that was trying to find a way to continue in a pandemic. Maybe gays have just been falling into a conspiracy theory spread online, like a social contagion, which has led them to choose to become gay? Is that the idea? Because from where I sit gays were born that way rather than making a choice. Jones made a stupid choice and he doesn’t get to play the victim. Gays are just who they are and face discrimination for that simple fact. Apples and oranges.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 28, 2022, 03:48:32 pm
I love the way those who insist that the Bible is the word of God tie themselves in knots trying to explain away the  way the Bible concentrates on the ethical keeping of slaves rather than declaring slavery is evil. One way of explaining it away would be to recognise that much of the social commentary is necessarily a reflection of the society that existed a couple of Millenia ago. Slavery was commonplace back then and simply banning it wouldn’t have been pragmatic. But that would undermine the notion of an unbending moral code imposed by God. But surely God would not be worried about pragmatism: S/he would just have declared slavery to be evil.

So there’s now an attempt to reinterpret slavery as a positive thing in the Bible. We’re told that the Bible wasn’t dealing with slaves - it was dealing with “bondservants”, those who became slaves voluntarily for a set period to work off a debt to the new Master. ...................................................

I wouldn't claim great knowledge in this area, but that type of slavery (bond servant) is one type, but there are others, e.g chattel slaves. There are various rules and stipulations for Israelites and non Israelitles, wives, offspring etc. that are probably beyond the scope of a football forum.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 28, 2022, 03:52:41 pm
Because Jones and gays are in such a similar position? Jones leaned in to a conspiracy theory spread on social media and was unwilling to help protect his fellow players and the competition that was trying to find a way to continue in a pandemic. Maybe gays have just been falling into a conspiracy theory spread online, like a social contagion, which has led them to choose to become gay? Is that the idea? Because from where I sit gays were born that way rather than making a choice. Jones made a stupid choice and he doesn’t get to play the victim. Gays are just who they are and face discrimination for that simple fact. Apples and oranges.

Yes I agree. Some of the reasoning on this topic is bizarre. It's the slippery slope logical fallacy, and it doesn't wash IMO.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 28, 2022, 04:08:12 pm
I wouldn't claim great knowledge in this area, but that type of slavery (bond servant) is one type, but there are others, e.g chattel slaves. There are various rules and stipulations for Israelites and non Israelitles, wives, offspring etc. that are probably beyond the scope of a football forum.
Yep, there are many twists and turns. But it’s amazing that there’s no point-blank declaration in the Bible that slavery is evil. As you noted, that gave slavers wiggle room in the US and England to continue their trade. Ironically, Texas is now banning any reference to slavery or racism in schools now as they might cause distress to white folk. Textbooks can’t refer to Africans being kidnapped by slavers for sale in the US - apparently, they’ll be referred to as involuntary relocations. I’d love to hear religious folk trying to explain away this peculiar shortcoming in the Bible, but only if I could shut them up after they flail away for a little while.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on July 28, 2022, 04:08:20 pm
Apart from the quotes by Ian Roberts, that ABC article sounds like a bit of PR happy talk. Everybody's very respectful of each other, which is clearly better than starting a war of words, exchanging hostilities etc., but there's nothing in that article that suggests a solution, for a jersey that supposedly wasn't just about LGBT people, but all marginalized groups. The players may not have bad intentions, but consequences matter a whole lot more IMO.

It's not the Pasifika players' intentions that are at fault Paul.  It's Manly's failure to see that the "pride jersey" could be problematic for a significant part of its playing group, particularly when one of their own, in Roberts, may have brought them along.  Consulting their playing group and, hopefully, raising their awareness of  LGBTQ+ issues should have been the first step.  Now, what was an important initiative has, at best, raised awareness of impact of Christianity on Indigenous peoples.  At worst, it's further marginalised LGBTQ+ and Pasifika folk.  

I should add that Muslim proselytisers have had a similarly deleterious impact on Melanesian communities.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 28, 2022, 04:36:09 pm
It's not the Pasifika players' intentions that are at fault Paul.  It's Manly's failure to see that the "pride jersey" could be problematic for a significant part of its playing group, particularly when one of their own, in Roberts, may have brought them along.  Consulting their playing group and, hopefully, raising their awareness of  LGBTQ+ issues should have been the first step.  Now, what was an important initiative has, at best, raised awareness of impact of Christianity on Indigenous peoples.  At worst, it's further marginalised LGBTQ+ and Pasifika folk.  

I should add that Muslim proselytisers have had a similarly deleterious impact on Melanesian communities.

The hearts and minds of these players and others like them were set a long time ago, and whilst change is always possible, I'm not sure any kind of pre match consultation would have changed the outcome.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 28, 2022, 04:42:17 pm
Because Jones and gays are in such a similar position? Jones leaned in to a conspiracy theory spread on social media and was unwilling to help protect his fellow players and the competition that was trying to find a way to continue in a pandemic. Maybe gays have just been falling into a conspiracy theory spread online, like a social contagion, which has led them to choose to become gay? Is that the idea? Because from where I sit gays were born that way rather than making a choice. Jones made a stupid choice and he doesn’t get to play the victim. Gays are just who they are and face discrimination for that simple fact. Apples and oranges.
Jones quit the AFL and did protect other players by not playing plus took a hit to his pocket, while I am vaccinated I dont think I am in a position to decide on Jones own health decisions being good or bad as I dont know his medical circumstances, and have no medical qualifications and you need to be careful making those judgments. Not sure how you have deduced he made his health decisions based on social media offerings either unless you have some exclusive knowledge.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on July 28, 2022, 04:49:20 pm
We have descended into a whole realm of false equivalency to argue that if you don't agree with the status quo, you are a problem. 

The exact antithesis of respect and inclusivity that is being imposed.

The irony is not lost on me.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 28, 2022, 04:57:22 pm
Yes, why can’t we respect and tolerate the right of one group to disrespect and be intolerant towards another group? As George Brandeis said, don’t we all have the right to be bigots? 🙈
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 28, 2022, 05:02:47 pm
Jones quit the AFL and did protect other players by not playing plus took a hit to his pocket, while I am vaccinated I dont think I am in a position to decide on Jones own health decisions being good or bad as I dont know his medical circumstances, and have no medical qualifications and you need to be careful making those judgments. Not sure how you have deduced he made his health decisions based on social media offerings either unless you have some exclusive knowledge.
And you’d do well not to suggest Jones might regard himself as a marginalised minority. For all we know he might well be aware that he behaved like a dick who doesn’t deserve respect. As he won’t talk about it, you have nothing to suggest otherwise.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 28, 2022, 05:31:30 pm
Yep, there are many twists and turns. But it’s amazing that there’s no point-blank declaration in the Bible that slavery is evil. As you noted, that gave slavers wiggle room in the US and England to continue their trade. Ironically, Texas is now banning any reference to slavery or racism in schools now as they might cause distress to white folk. Textbooks can’t refer to Africans being kidnapped by slavers for sale in the US - apparently, they’ll be referred to as involuntary relocations. I’d love to hear religious folk trying to explain away this peculiar shortcoming in the Bible, but only if I could shut them up after they flail away for a little while.

No, there isn't any point blank declaration to that effect, but in those times, it's just how it was. Those points you make about Texas indicate a much deeper problem than religion IMO. I suggest you'll be wasting your time trying to debate Christian apologists. They have no need to seek the truth - they've already found it.

Religious folk, like most groups, exist on a spectrum. Unfortunately the extremist shouters tend to get all the headlines, possibly because they say the more attention grabbing, outlandish things. There are many moderate and / or progressive Christians who don't follow the Bible literally, and who live with more modern values, and who use their faith as part of a personal spiritual journey, and as something that helps them through life. They don't deliberately or inadvertently weaponise their faith in ways that harm others.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on July 28, 2022, 05:35:50 pm
Yes, why can’t we respect and tolerate the right of one group to disrespect and be intolerant towards another group? As George Brandeis said, don’t we all have the right to be bigots? 🙈
no, the respect is about the conversation.   If the majority don't believe as you do, you would to quote yourself create a labor camp of the unvaccinated and force them to be vaccinated Gains their will for the greater good.

Not dissimilar to the programs about "knocking the gay" out of people that were imposed many moons ago.

The world is a very different place today.  No one gets forced to do anything they don't want to, and this discussion about slavery is about as relevant as gay bashing is.

The only slaves I see are slaves to the wage.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 28, 2022, 05:39:23 pm
I’m guessing you missed the whole human trafficking thing. And the actual gay bashing.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 28, 2022, 05:50:37 pm
And you’d do well not to suggest Jones might regard himself as a marginalised minority. For all we know he might well be aware that he behaved like a dick who doesn’t deserve respect. As he won’t talk about it, you have nothing to suggest otherwise.
Glad to see you took my reply well and didnt come back with a hysterical outburst....moving on..... I raised the possibility that other minority groups might want their day in the sun too and I concluded where does it start and where does it end.
The AFL and Rugby League are each a business running a game of football matches, if you want to turn them into a community soap box for every cause or minority groups issues then you are going to get a variety of problems. You would be wearing a different jumper every week as there are many good causes to raise awareness for including Gay inclusiveness, Gender respect, mental health etc etc etc.........Jones and his vaccine stance was just an extreme example of how silly it could become . Are the Rugby League and AFL only going to sanction jumpers/causes that help their bottom line and avoid a club for example who wanted to make a stance against gambling/pokies?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 28, 2022, 05:51:06 pm
Americans didn't abolish slavery, that just re-jigged the model.
Now they call it prison.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 28, 2022, 06:21:15 pm
Ah, yes, Religion. If you've got the time and inclination... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwff8yvi_2E
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on July 28, 2022, 06:22:08 pm
Americans didn't abolish slavery, that just re-jigged the model.
Now they call it prison.

A biting and tragic reality.

Some might also say that a mortgage is a form of slavery.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on July 28, 2022, 06:58:50 pm
The hearts and minds of these players and others like them were set a long time ago, and whilst change is always possible, I'm not sure any kind of pre match consultation would have changed the outcome.

When the agent of change is one of their own, it’s highly likely that they would see the harm of their positions.

They are unlikely to change because of pre-match consultation but I assume that the club came up with the jersey idea some time ago.  That’s when they should have begun consultation and awareness raising. 

That would also have forewarned the club of any likely problems and enabled them to find solutions that didn’t put back the cause they were hoping to promote.

Apart from further marginalising LGBTQ+ and Pasifika folk, the situation Manly created reinforces the bonehead reputation of NRL players.  A little thought and cross-cultural awareness could have gone a long way.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on July 28, 2022, 09:10:49 pm
https://youtu.be/3iV8X8ubGCc

Appropriate!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 29, 2022, 07:37:50 am
The angry mob reaction is highlighted for comedic purposes, but over here in the real world, the messaging is pretty clear. If you refuse to wear the indigenous jumper, it means at some level you have an issue with Indigenous rights. If you refuse to wear the Carlton Respects jumper, it means at some level you have an issue with gender equality. If you refuse to wear the pride jumper, it means at some level you have an issue with gay rights. These aren't fashion choices.

Objectors should take ownership of their biases, grow a pair and stop trying to get themselves off the hook, by demanding their right to an an opinion without consequence, or by hiding behind religious or cultural beliefs.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on July 29, 2022, 08:15:05 am
The Manly players dropped their opposition to wearing the “rainbow jersey” and ended their boycott.  They still lost the game!

More proactive engagement by the club and the whole debacle could have been avoided.

I guess it means that the next “rainbow jersey” game won’t be an issue.  The NRL may even introduce a pride round 🤔
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 29, 2022, 08:17:54 am
The angry mob reaction is highlighted for comedic purposes, but over here in the real world, the messaging is pretty clear. If you refuse to wear the indigenous jumper, it means at some level you have an issue with Indigenous rights.
I'm sorry @PaulP but I think that is a extremist position and not your usual level headed perspective.

It's like asserting F1 driver Ricciardo is a racist because he doesn't take a knee with Hamilton.

Many would oppose a rainbow round just because they do not want politics and sport to mix, many oppose taking a knee for the very same reason, and that basic observation makes a mockery of your sweeping assertion.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 29, 2022, 08:33:58 am
I'm sorry @PaulP but I think that is a extremist position and not you usual level headed perspective.

It's like asserting F1 driver Ricciardo is a racist because he doesn't take a knee with Hamilton.

Many would oppose a rainbow round just because they do not want politics and sport to mix, many oppose taking a knee for the very same reason, and that basic observation makes a mockery of your sweeping assertion.

If they don't want sports and politics to mix, they wouldn't wear indigenous jumpers, or Carlton Respects jumpers. The reports in the media stated very clearly they would not wear the pride jumper for cultural and religious reasons. Your repeated attempts to smooth over a real issue aren't working.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on July 29, 2022, 08:57:52 am
The Manly players dropped their opposition to wearing the “rainbow jersey” and ended their boycott.  They still lost the game!

More proactive engagement by the club and the whole debacle could have been avoided.

I guess it means that the next “rainbow jersey” game won’t be an issue.  The NRL may even introduce a pride round 🤔

Where did you hear they dropped their opposition?
I understand they stayed home.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on July 29, 2022, 09:04:40 am
The angry mob reaction is highlighted for comedic purposes, but over here in the real world, the messaging is pretty clear. If you refuse to wear the indigenous jumper, it means at some level you have an issue with Indigenous rights. If you refuse to wear the Carlton Respects jumper, it means at some level you have an issue with gender equality. If you refuse to wear the pride jumper, it means at some level you have an issue with gay rights. These aren't fashion choices.

Objectors should take ownership of their biases, grow a pair and stop trying to get themselves off the hook, by demanding their right to an an opinion without consequence, or by hiding behind religious or cultural beliefs.

This is art immitating life.

The ribbon in this case was a cause that everyone can get behind right?

But, the point is, that this could be anything including causes that not everyone can or wants to get behind.  Why is personal.  The whole point is that you dont have to be in complete 100% solidarity with any cause, you just shouldnt be in opposition to it, and that should be enough.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 29, 2022, 09:12:26 am
This is art immitating life.

The ribbon in this case was a cause that everyone can get behind right?

But, the point is, that this could be anything including causes that not everyone can or wants to get behind.  Why is personal.  The whole point is that you dont have to be in complete 100% solidarity with any cause, you just shouldnt be in opposition to it, and that should be enough.

It's called casual or nuanced bigotry. It operates at levels that some outside the affected groups will never notice. You can read anything Chad Wingard has written recently about his experiences with subtle racism. He's not gay, but the principle is exactly the same.

Sitting on the fence and absolving yourself from taking a position, or taking a weak, tokenistic position, is not good enough IMO.

The biggest problem with white male privilege is not cold hardheartedness, it's not lack of intelligence, it's blindness.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on July 29, 2022, 09:22:14 am
It's called casual or nuanced bigotry. It operates at levels that some outside the affected groups will never notice. You can read anything Chad Wingard has written recently about his experiences with subtle racism. He's not gay, but the principle is exactly the same.

Sitting on the fence and absolving yourself from taking a position, or taking a weak, tokenistic position, is not good enough IMO.

The biggest problem with white male privilege is not cold hardheartedness, it's not lack of intelligence, it's blindness.

NO the biggest problem is insisting that everyone who isnt like minded has a problem because thats your world view and everyone should see the world as you do.

ERGO, that makes you just as bad as the people you criticise.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on July 29, 2022, 09:25:18 am
Oh and for the discussion on slavery:

https://restavekfreedom.org/2018/09/11/the-history-of-slavery/#:~:text=Slavery%20Throughout%20the%20Ancient%20World&text=Sumer%20or%20Sumeria%20is%20still,Qin%20Dynasty%20in%20221%20BC.

Slavery's origins predate a lot of the religious argument that has been bandied about on here too.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 29, 2022, 09:42:10 am
NO the biggest problem is insisting that everyone who isnt like minded has a problem because thats your world view and everyone should see the world as you do.

ERGO, that makes you just as bad as the people you criticise.

No, the biggest problem is putting your ego above all else. It has nothing to do with people sharing or not sharing my world view. It has to do with tiny gestures to show support for groups that are still experiencing victimization and discrimination.

Demanding your right to hold an opinion without consequence or responsibility is just ego tripping. Every time you say no to showing some sign of support for groups that need it, it makes their fight for justice and equality just that little bit harder. Slave owners in the antebellum south also thought they were nice guys.

Like I said, blindness.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on July 29, 2022, 10:13:50 am
I don't know Paul.

I think it's a case of black and white vs a hundred shades of grey.

I like to think I'm fairly sympathetic to groups who are disadvantaged or prejudiced against through historical traditions.
Do I get excited about indigenous rounds or pride rounds....not really.
I'm just interested in the football.
But discuss with me the need for groups to be accepted and respected and you'll have me a hundred percent on board.

But to tell another person  the level of support 'they' should give to similar causes, and how they should think is above my pay grade.

In the 'real' world that you talk about, shaming and denigrating the opinions and beliefs of others is the most counterproductive way of changing hearts and minds.
The response you get is not to change those opinions...you harden them and drive them underground.
Folks dont engage, they disengage.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 29, 2022, 10:34:57 am
Where did you hear they dropped their opposition?
I understand they stayed home.
Yes, it's reported today as a depleted Manly side lost to the Roosters.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2022, 10:38:12 am
And yet the Manly players who boycotted the game last night have apparently agreed they’ll wear the jumper next season. Maybe the backlash produced engagement? Remember that this is team sport. The players play for a club and both the club and the NRL have the right to obtain sponsorships and promote the game to as large an audience as they want. An individual player can’t object to wearing a guernsey with Points Bet on it on moral or religious grounds and they presumably can’t refuse to wear the one Manly played in last night. I’m assuming the NRL made sure players’ contracts made this clear after the Izzy Folau saga but Manly chose to placate the 7 players rather than sack them as they form such a large part of the team. If Manly wants to signal acceptance to gays, players will just have to comfort themselves with their 700,000 pieces of silver for selling out Christ.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 29, 2022, 10:40:34 am
ERGO, that makes you just as bad as the people you criticise.
Yes, to me looking at this externally and dispassionately it is for all the world like the old two wrongs at play.

There are a whole host of extreme behaviours on both side of many debates that cannot be justified, I've never understood the concept of bad or good versions of same wrong, often dressed up as virtue signalling.

From my perspective there is very little about this debate that is subtle or nuanced, it's more bludgeoning by the various mobs, ironically mobs that continually claim minority status and persecution!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 29, 2022, 10:51:45 am
I don't know Paul.

I think it's a case of black and white vs a hundred shades of grey.

I like to think I'm fairly sympathetic to groups who are disadvantaged or prejudiced against through historical traditions.
Do I get excited about indigenous rounds or pride rounds....not really.
I'm just interested in the football.
But discuss with me the need for groups to be accepted and respected and you'll have me a hundred percent on board.

But to tell another person  the level of support 'they' should give to similar causes, and how they should think is above my pay grade.

In the 'real' world that you talk about, shaming and denigrating the opinions and beliefs of others is the most counterproductive way of changing hearts and minds.
The response you get is not to change those opinions...you harden them and drive them underground.
Folks dont engage, they disengage.


I agree that some folks who place their ego above all else react badly to being told their opinions directly or indirectly hurt others. I don't know if softly softly is better than direct statements. To be honest, I'm not fussed. They are welcome to think my opinions are black and white, or that they suck etc.

How do you think we got to the point of having Indigenous round ? Do you think us white guys woke up one morning, realized off our own bat that the blackfellas have faced significant and systemic hurdles for 200 years, and we should work to change it ? Or do you think it was a bottom up, long concerted effort by First Nations people mainly, putting in long hours over decades, raising money, raising awareness, raising profile etc. I'd say the latter.

How do you think we got to the point of having Carlton Respects ? Do you think us white guys woke up one morning, realized off our own bat that ladies have been and continue to be badly treated by men, and we should work to change it ? Or do you think it was a bottom up, long concerted effort by women mainly, putting in long hours over decades, raising money, raising awareness, raising profile etc. I'd say the latter.

Like I said, not evil (at least not all time), not lack of intelligence, just blindness.

You don't need to be passionate about the pride jumper - you just need to understand why it exists, and embrace the values it is trying to advocate.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 29, 2022, 10:56:41 am
Too many good people remain silent, having sold their soul to radicals as an excuse for making some progress.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2022, 11:04:24 am
Oh and for the discussion on slavery:

https://restavekfreedom.org/2018/09/11/the-history-of-slavery/#:~:text=Slavery%20Throughout%20the%20Ancient%20World&text=Sumer%20or%20Sumeria%20is%20still,Qin%20Dynasty%20in%20221%20BC.

Slavery's origins predate a lot of the religious argument that has been bandied about on here too.
I’m glad you did a bit of research. The link you provided stresses that slavery remains a problem today and needs to be confronted. In fact, the history of slavery leads the reader towards the article’s main purpose: “Join Us to Help Enslaved Haitian Children”. I assume you realise this and you’re walking away from the assertion you previously made:

The world is a very different place today.  No one gets forced to do anything they don't want to, and this discussion about slavery is about as relevant as gay bashing is.

The only slaves I see are slaves to the wage.
By the way, I’m struggling to understand why you point out that slavery predates the “religious argument” (I’m assuming you mean the observation that the Bible doesn’t condemn slavery but instead attempts to make it ethical by setting out the obligations of slave owners). As you know, I noted that in doing so the Bible took the pragmatic course of allowing a practice that was widespread in those days to continue. In other words, it predated the Bible. So why are you suggesting the article undermines my point when I made that point myself?

Here’s a question for you. Is slavery always morally wrong or does it depend on circumstances?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on July 29, 2022, 12:04:33 pm
Or do you think it was a bottom up, long concerted effort by First Nations people mainly, putting in long hours over decades, raising money, raising awareness, raising profile etc. I'd say the latter.

Or do you think it was a bottom up, long concerted effort by women mainly, putting in long hours over decades, raising money, raising awareness, raising profile etc. I'd say the latter.


Yep
Definitely the latter
I've probably had more contact with indigenous people over the last forty years than most on this site.
I've had discussions with Teachers, teacher's aides, students, parents and elders.

The argument is not so much on the rights of equality, respect and acceptance as the best method to achieve that.
That varies considerably from a semi-militant approach to a discussion and education.

Do you change minds by shaming, threatening, belittling or by educating.
And the task of educating is often best handled by those directly affected with the experience to tell their stories.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 29, 2022, 12:13:49 pm
Yep
Definitely the latter
I've probably had more contact with indigenous people over the last forty years than most on this site.
I've had discussions with Teachers, teacher's aides, students, parents and elders.

The argument is not so much on the rights of equality, respect and acceptance as the best method to achieve that.
That varies considerably from a semi-militant approach to a discussion and education.

Do you change minds by shaming, threatening, belittling or by educating.
And the task of educating is often best handled by those directly affected with the experience to tell their stories.

I agree with pretty much all that. But I'm not sure that a site like this has any educational value. I would say that irrespective of whether I or others take a softly softly approach, or a tougher approach, the chances of changing a mind with either are basically zero. By the time people get to this site, opinions and values, beliefs etc. are pretty much set. I don't think anyone on here has any capacity to influence folks. But those Sea Eagles players do absolutely have that power.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 29, 2022, 12:16:13 pm
How would excluding discussion in various forums add value to the debate?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on July 29, 2022, 12:45:48 pm
I’m glad you did a bit of research. The link you provided stresses that slavery remains a problem today and needs to be confronted. In fact, the history of slavery leads the reader towards the article’s main purpose: “Join Us to Help Enslaved Haitian Children”.
Thats your inference.  I actually brought this up to show you and your mate PaulP that lining up the Christians for slavery is poppycock.

Quote
I assume you realise this and you’re walking away from the assertion you previously made:
By the way, I’m struggling to understand why you point out that slavery predates the “religious argument” (I’m assuming you mean the observation that the Bible doesn’t condemn slavery but instead attempts to make it ethical by setting out the obligations of slave owners). As you know, I noted that in doing so the Bible took the pragmatic course of allowing a practice that was widespread in those days to continue. In other words, it predated the Bible. So why are you suggesting the article undermines my point when I made that point myself?
  Slavery pre-dates Christianity.  The reason I state this, is to present the idea, that potentially observing scripture in Christianity regarding the morality of slavery, is simply lining up the usual suspects and targetting them through a prejudicial agenda.  You hate religion, ergo, you attack them at each opportunity.

Finally, if you read the scripture in Greek as it was intended, people will determine fairly quickly the juxtaposition of many of the arguments.  Religion was and has always been about observing different attitudes in society, and asking people to question the morality of their decision making.

Quote
Here’s a question for you. Is slavery always morally wrong or does it depend on circumstances?

I am unqualified to answer this question.  Philosophically speaking, you need to define what slavery is, to determine how wrong it is.  We are all slaves to society after all.  Is that wrong?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 29, 2022, 12:55:53 pm
Thats your inference.  I actually brought this up to show you and your mate PaulP that lining up the Christians for slavery is poppycock.
................................

Nice try. I never once stated nor implied that slavery was the exclusive preserve of the Israelites or early Christians.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2022, 01:15:22 pm
Maybe it’s a blind spot for Christians, then. I’m happy to say slavery is wrong. Why can’t you?

Perhaps it was one of the 20 commandments, but, as Mel Brooks suggested, Moses dropped the tablet containing commandments 11-20. Maybe the commandments should have read:

Quote
1. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.
4. Honour your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.
11. You shall not keep slaves.
Maybe “You shall not be gay” made it into the top 20 as well.

I can understand why politicians back in Biblical times didn’t want to get on the wrong side of the populace (or at least the rich and powerful) by banning slavery. But should God have been so pragmatic? If the Bible represents the word of God and applies for all time, why would God temper statements of morality to fit into the practices of the day? Aren’t Good and Evil unchanging through time?

On the other hand, if we accept that what is Good and Evil changes with time and cultural values, maybe that means that any supposed Biblical view that homosexuality is an abomination can also be seen as a reflection of cultural values that are 2000 years out of date. Presumably, if Jesus returned to Earth now he’d have no difficulty stating that slavery is evil. And maybe he’d have no difficulty accepting that homosexuality is part of the human condition and is accepted in the eyes of God …
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on July 29, 2022, 01:22:38 pm
Well if nothing else this thread is pretty much proving my assertion about the extremes people are prepared to take in the whole debate! ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2022, 01:37:56 pm
Religious extremism?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on July 29, 2022, 03:00:59 pm
Maybe it’s a blind spot for Christians, then. I’m happy to say slavery is wrong. Why can’t you?

Perhaps it was one of the 20 commandments, but, as Mel Brooks suggested, Moses dropped the tablet containing commandments 11-20. Maybe the commandments should have read:
Maybe “You shall not be gay” made it into the top 20 as well.

I can understand why politicians back in Biblical times didn’t want to get on the wrong side of the populace (or at least the rich and powerful) by banning slavery. But should God have been so pragmatic? If the Bible represents the word of God and applies for all time, why would God temper statements of morality to fit into the practices of the day? Aren’t Good and Evil unchanging through time?

On the other hand, if we accept that what is Good and Evil changes with time and cultural values, maybe that means that any supposed Biblical view that homosexuality is an abomination can also be seen as a reflection of cultural values that are 2000 years out of date. Presumably, if Jesus returned to Earth now he’d have no difficulty stating that slavery is evil. And maybe he’d have no difficulty accepting that homosexuality is part of the human condition and is accepted in the eyes of God …


What is a slave Mav?





Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2022, 03:25:08 pm
A person who is not free to walk away from serving his or her master. Just in case you try to suggest that those who are contracted to, say, an employer such as a record label are therefore slaves, no they aren’t. Courts will not grant a mandatory injunction requiring someone to fulfil contracts that require personal performance. The Courts may award damages for breach of contract and they may grant injunctions to prevent the breaching party from providing the contracted services to other parties, but they won’t force a person to work out the contract.

As an example, a Court won’t grant a mandatory injunction to force Paddy Dow to play with Carlton next year. Such a mandatory injunction would carry a threat of jail if Paddy Dow refused to play in our VFL side. Carlton could regard a refusal by Paddy Dow to play as a breach of contract and terminate the contract. And the AFL and Carlton could obtain injunctions against any club that sought to list him as a player. But there’s no way the Courts would enjoin Dow from working for McDonalds next year.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2022, 03:37:49 pm
So, now that we’ve cleared that up, are you willing to say that slavery is evil?

Abraham Lincoln emancipated the slaves rather than just requiring slave owners to abide by codes of practice. Surely, God could have done that?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 29, 2022, 03:51:55 pm
Sitting on the fence and absolving yourself from taking a position, or taking a weak, tokenistic position, is not good enough IMO.

I don't disagree with where you are coming from, but this argument doesn't work.

Simply there are too many causes that people should be vocal about. If we were as front footed as you suggest, society would crumble because everyone would be protesting 24/7 for various causes.

Obviously there are differing degrees of importance to this, but that is the point ...where do you stop
Such causes as....
Gender equality
Pride acceptance
Black lives matter
Anzac day rememberance
Indigenous appreciation....are common place.
We also have....
Earth hour
Global warming
Anti nukes
Anti war/terrorism
Starving kids in Africa
Homeless people in [insert city here]
Someone mentioned Haitian slavery
Which reminds me of the stolen generation
Save the rainforest
Save the orang-utan/Anti palm oil
Save the whales
Save the [insert one of 100s of species of animals here]



....you get the point, but there would be 100s of things I could write that people are vocal about and also silent on....which is NOT a sign that they are against (or for) but there simply isn't enough time in the day to care about all there is to care about. So people focus on something that is close to them.

Apathy does not equal opposition.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on July 29, 2022, 04:03:25 pm
Where did you hear they dropped their opposition?
I understand they stayed home.

Misread the article Lods - it was early in the morning  :-[

Quote
The owner of the club said the players who refused to play in tonight’s match against the Roosters have agreed to wear a pride jersey next season, as long as they are consulted.

So, they have dropped their opposition to wearing the jersey next season.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on July 29, 2022, 04:05:57 pm
So, now that we’ve cleared that up, are you willing to say that slavery is evil?
Yes, but I do recognise that what one person might label slavery, others may not agree with being a slave at all.

Perspective is the key to understanding how things can vary rather than applying blanket statements to things.

Quote
Abraham Lincoln emancipated the slaves rather than just requiring slave owners to abide by codes of practice. Surely, God could have done that?

Again, I am not qualified to be asking or answering this question.  The whole idea of a creator, or God, isnt necessarily to make everything "right". 

How people view religion is deeply personal.  One persons definition doesn't fit someone else's but in those circumstances we hear various teaching from the bible that states, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.  The lesson there isnt about throwing stones, or targeting people for their mistakes.  Its about understanding that all people error along the way, and not to be too quick to judge people.

A little like judging guys who werent consulted about pride round.  ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 29, 2022, 04:17:59 pm
I don't disagree with where you are coming from, but this argument doesn't work.

Simply there are too many causes that people should be vocal about. If we were as front footed as you suggest, society would crumble because everyone would be protesting 24/7 for various causes...

Apathy does not equal opposition.

I think there is more than enough time to do your bit, even with the plethora of causes that exist in what is IMO a broken world. You don't have to give your life to a cause, but there are plenty of things to be done, even if they're only small.

Being apathetic to, for example the Manly jumper issue, is clearly not as bad as being blatantly hostile and violent to gays, but neither does it help. And I would argue sitting on the fence does more harm than good. Think of the Germans who turned a blind, apathetic eye to the plight of the Jews during WWII. You could perhaps understand their reluctance, given that any opposition would likely result in death. But those circumstances don't exist any longer, which is why I don't understand the resistance to the Pride jumper.

There's a lot of bad theology going around, and it does a lot of harm. The various rules, beliefs, do's and don'ts have some basis in practical reason. For example the various rules in Leviticus banning sex with your mother and other family members. These strike us weird and unnecessary. But in their time and place, they made sense. People lived a very hand to mouth existence, sometimes nomadic in small isolated communities. Travel and contact with others were limited. The temptation to fulfill one's sexual desires with whomever was available (typically family or close relative) was both strong and obvious. Hence the rules.

Similarly, we need to understand that these people lived at a time of short life span and high infant mortality. The leaders and elders of the communities understood that replenishing and increasing the population was of paramount importance. Hence, not only were girls sent off to marry a man as soon as they were able to conceive, but rules and beliefs were built around this need for more "bums on seats." It should come as little surprise that things that interfered with this were actively discouraged - things like divorce, abortion, contraception, homosexuality all reduced reproduction potential. These rules and beliefs were not just plucked out of thin air.

I support neither the wholesale rejection of the Bible, nor its wholesale endorsement. But we must understand the why and the time and place, and not just accept things lazily and blindly.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2022, 04:18:15 pm
The “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” philosophy is a New Testament thing, no? The Old Testament Christians don’t abide by it quite so much. Their God is a vengeful God who isn’t so much into forgiveness. Wiping out the entire populations of multiple cities was part of his modus operandi.

Why don’t Christians apply the “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” philosophy to how they react to gay people? Surely, they aren’t without sin themselves, so they shouldn’t be casting stones. If they think gays are sinners, leave it to God to deal with them on Judgment Day. Why usurp God’s role?

Maybe they should love the sinner but hate the sin. That would mean Christians should be happy to love the gay community and join in signalling acceptance of it even if they regard homosexuality as a sin. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on July 29, 2022, 04:38:43 pm
The “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” philosophy is a New Testament thing, no? The Old Testament Christians don’t abide by it quite so much. Their God is a vengeful God who isn’t so much into forgiveness. Wiping out the entire populations of multiple cities was part of his modus operandi.

Why don’t Christians apply the “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” philosophy to how they react to gay people? Surely, they aren’t without sin themselves, so they shouldn’t be casting stones. If they think gays are sinners, leave it to God to deal with them on Judgment Day. Why usurp God’s role?

Maybe they should love the sinner but hate the sin. That would mean Christians should be happy to love the gay community and join in signalling acceptance of it even if they regard homosexuality as a sin. Am I missing something?

In my experience, most of them do.

You keep generalising and tarring everyone with the same brush.  I went to Christening of my friend and her wife's children in an Anglican church myself.

I still don't want to wear the rainbow.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2022, 04:44:13 pm
But if you wore a uniform provided by your employer and your employer had the right to put a 🌈 on it, you’d wear it then, wouldn’t you …
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 29, 2022, 05:02:32 pm
But if you wore a uniform provided by your employer and your employer had the right to put a 🌈 on it, you’d wear it then, wouldn’t you …
Wearing a prescribed uniform is usually a condition of employment you sign up to, any changes to those conditions are usually the subject of discussion between employer and employee. There was no discussion....fail Manly football club.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2022, 06:04:20 pm
If your contract says you have to wear a uniform with whatever signs for sponsors and causes that the employer directs from time to time, then there’s no obligation to consult. I’m guessing that’s exactly the case with AFL contracts and I doubt large companies would agree to individual consultations with their workforce or a veto to any employee who has an issue.

Are you suggesting players at Manly had to agree to the Points Bet sponsorship or that individual players had the right to play in a guernsey which didn’t bear that sponsor’s name? That would be ridiculous.

My guess is that Manly had the right to modify the guernsey as they did without being legally required to consult. There was no suggestion that the players would sue to be able to play in the old jumper. After all, the NRL was well aware of this issue after The Izzy Folau saga and would have made sure the standard contract gave the NRL and clubs absolute control of their guernseys.

Manly could be criticised for failing to head off this issue given that it wasn’t willing to pull the trigger by threatening 7 players with the sack. That was the error.

AFAIK, there’s no right to a conscientious objection. The Izzy Folau case swung on whether the ARU’s contract allowed it to regulate the sort of social media comments that Folau was making.

One surprising revelation in the wake of this saga was that Willie Hopoate refused to play games on Sundays on the grounds that Sunday is the Sabbath. Can you imagine an AFL player pulling that stunt?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on July 29, 2022, 06:20:38 pm
One of the big differences between AFL and NRL is the number of Pacific Islanders in League.
Yes, Religion plays a big part in these societies...but
Just a curious aside to this debate....one of my friends is a lay preacher with the Uniting Church.
He does regular pieces at Sunday services.
He was born in Samoa of Australian parents while his father was a minister there over 60 years ago.

He was most outspoken in support of the same sex marriage debate and also super critical of the anti vaxxers during that discussion.
From comments I've read from his church group it seems they were also quite supportive of his views.
I suspect a lot of it falls back to a personal interpretation dependent on close influences.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 29, 2022, 06:20:57 pm
If they lived by every Biblical edict instead of just selecting the ones that support their biases, or the ones they've been spoon fed, it would at least be consistent. Two of those Manly players have arm tattoos, which according to Leviticus 19.28, is not allowed.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 29, 2022, 06:22:47 pm
One of the big differences between AFL and NRL is the number of Pacific Islanders in League.
Yes, Religion plays a big part in these societies...but
Just a curious aside to this debate....one of my friends is a lay preacher with the Uniting Church.
He does regular pieces at Sunday services.
He was born in Samoa of Australian parents while his father was a minister there over 60 years ago.

He was most outspoken in support of the same sex marriage debate and also super critical of the anti vaxxers during that discussion.
From comments I've read from his church group it seems they were also quite supportive of his views.
I suspect a lot of it falls back to a personal interpretation dependent on close influences.


I'm sure Pacific Islander Christians exist on a spectrum, like most groups.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on July 29, 2022, 07:03:57 pm
Easy fix. Have a Christian round where the players can all wear crosses to show their support for the Christian population.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 29, 2022, 07:04:31 pm
I think there is more than enough time to do your bit, even with the plethora of causes that exist in what is IMO a broken world. You don't have to give your life to a cause, but there are plenty of things to be done, even if they're only small.

I call BS on that.
If true, you won't have an issue describing what you've done in each of the examples i gave you before.
Once you're done with that, i will provide another list, and continue.

Before we move on, i assume you are vegetarian because of the issue with eating meat.
I assume you grow your own food.......own enough solar panels to run your whole house...or live in a commune....and drive a hybrid car.....or better yet a bicycle.
You would also volounteer at homeless shelters. Do all your shopping at savers....and donate the majority of your wage to those unable to keep a roof over their head

If you don't do any of those things, you must be a hypocrite.  :P

Being apathetic to, for example the Manly jumper issue, is clearly not as bad as being blatantly hostile and violent to gays, but neither does it help. And I would argue sitting on the fence does more harm than good. Think of the Germans who turned a blind, apathetic eye to the plight of the Jews during WWII. You could perhaps understand their reluctance, given that any opposition would likely result in death. But those circumstances don't exist any longer, which is why I don't understand the resistance to the Pride jumper.
In a modern world, in a modern age, we should take into account peoples mental health. Perhaps Manly jumper dissenters did so because they would be bullied and/or teased by family and/or friends for doing so. Some extreme measure could involved being disowned.
Should they not be allowed to say no to wearing something that could lead to their family and/or friends disowning them?

There's a lot of bad theology going around....
...and everytime there is, problems arise.
Each to their own, but if there was no religion in the world, it would be a happier place.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 29, 2022, 07:09:19 pm
Easy fix. Have a Christian round where the players can all wear crosses to show their support for the Christian population.
Would they before or after ramadan round....or should that be ramadan month?

Gotta stop footy on sundays for the sabbath.....or saturday.....depends on which religion you are.

Going to have to stop using leather on the footballs because using animal products is wrong too.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on July 29, 2022, 07:18:27 pm
Not practising their religion, that would be like telling the Manly boys to dress up like Boy George.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 29, 2022, 07:31:12 pm
I call BS on that.
If true, you won't have an issue describing what you've done in each of the examples i gave you before.
Once you're done with that, i will provide another list, and continue.

Before we move on, i assume you are vegetarian because of the issue with eating meat.
I assume you grow your own food.......own enough solar panels to run your whole house...or live in a commune....and drive a hybrid car.....or better yet a bicycle.
You would also volounteer at homeless shelters. Do all your shopping at savers....and donate the majority of your wage to those unable to keep a roof over their head

If you don't do any of those things, you must be a hypocrite.  :P
...

So, because I'm not Mother Teresa, Gandhi, and JI Rodale rolled into one, and because I don't have limitless funds to upgrade my car, house, and give my wage away and live off a few pennies, I must be a hypocrite because I think some players should wear a stripey jumper once per year ?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on July 29, 2022, 07:37:26 pm
But if you wore a uniform provided by your employer and your employer had the right to put a 🌈 on it, you’d wear it then, wouldn’t you …

I refused.

I also didn't put a badge with he/him on it.

Didn't use the signature with pronouns either.

None of it necessary or important.   I went to work to earn a crust not be socially engineered. 

The look I got when I refused the ribbon from the people handing them out.  You would think I shot Bambi.  My Muslim counterpart refused too. 

If I wasn't Christian.  Id still refuse.  Christianity has nothing to do with the price of fish.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2022, 07:55:35 pm
In other words, in your case there was no contractual obligation, so you were in a different position to footballers who have an obligation to do so in their contracts. Apples, oranges.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 29, 2022, 08:04:27 pm
So, because I'm not Mother Teresa, Gandhi, and JI Rodale rolled into one, and because I don't have limitless funds to upgrade my car, house, and give my wage away and live off a few pennies, I must be a hypocrite because I think some players should wear a stripey jumper once per year ?
You said there is more than enough time to support all the causes. I took issue with this.
Quote
I think there is more than enough time to do your bit, even with the plethora of causes that exist in what is IMO a broken world.
I'm just pointing out there is plenty to do, and not enough time. SO people pick and choose what they will and won't ACTIVELY support.

Apathy does not equal opposition.

Thus, just because they do not support, does not mean they are opposed.

...and as mentioned, there could be other reasons they do not support.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 29, 2022, 08:38:15 pm
You said there is more than enough time to support all the causes. I took issue with this.I'm just pointing out there is plenty to do, and not enough time. SO people pick and choose what they will and won't ACTIVELY support.

Apathy does not equal opposition.

Thus, just because they do not support, does not mean they are opposed.

...and as mentioned, there could be other reasons they do not support.


this is what I said :

I think there is more than enough time to do your bit, even with the plethora of causes that exist in what is IMO a broken world. You don't have to give your life to a cause, but there are plenty of things to be done, even if they're only small.

I emphasize small gestures that are manageable by the average person, and you come out with a hit list that no human could ever meet, and then say I'm a hypocrite. Righto then.




In a modern world, in a modern age, we should take into account peoples mental health. Perhaps Manly jumper dissenters did so because they would be bullied and/or teased by family and/or friends for doing so. Some extreme measure could involved being disowned.
Should they not be allowed to say no to wearing something that could lead to their family and/or friends disowning them?

If that's the case, then why not come out and say it, instead of hiding behind some flaky Theological pretense ? It's been obvious all along. All of us are motivated by a need for security, a need to belong, all of us seek validation and acceptance by our tribe and our community. Nobody wants to be ostracized. Being the lone dissenter is worse for some people than being the spare pr1ck at a Jewish wedding. I get it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 29, 2022, 08:46:32 pm
........................................

Thus, just because they do not support, does not mean they are opposed.
.............................................................

So if you don't support the pride jumper, and you don't oppose the pride jumper, this means what exactly ?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 29, 2022, 08:57:59 pm

this is what I said :

I think there is more than enough time to do your bit, even with the plethora of causes that exist in what is IMO a broken world. You don't have to give your life to a cause, but there are plenty of things to be done, even if they're only small.

I emphasize small gestures that are manageable by the average person, and you come out with a hit list that no human could ever meet, and then say I'm a hypocrite. Righto then.
Its a quicker version of the same point.

I could ask, what have you done in your life to......Save the whales?
etc etc etc
Until it gets to the point where you haven't done anything. Then i can call you a hypocrite as you said there was time for all the causes.
There simply isn't and no matter which way you slice it, there is simply too much to care about in the world to focus on it all.




If that's the case, then why not come out and say it, instead of hiding behind some flaky Theological pretense ? It's been obvious all along. All of us are motivated by a need for security, a need to belong, all of us seek validation and acceptance by our tribe and our community. Nobody wants to be ostracized. Being the lone dissenter is worse for some people than being the spare pr1ck at a Jewish wedding. I get it.
Why do they need to? There private life is their own.
Why do they need to justify anything to anyone. They have their opinion and it is what it is.

Do they need to say that when they were younger they were raped by someone while they were wearing a rainbow t-shirt and the rapist commented on the t-shirt and it brings back bad memories and they vowed to never wear anything rainbow again?!

Look, i don't know why they have an issue with something seemingly so easy to go along with, and so beneficial to plenty out there.
I don't understand it, but i don't need to.

The choice is their own....and they are entitled to it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 29, 2022, 08:58:31 pm
So if you don't support the pride jumper, and you don't oppose the pride jumper, this means what exactly ?

meh.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on July 29, 2022, 09:04:38 pm
Its a quicker version of the same point.

I could ask, what have you done in your life to......Save the whales?
etc etc etc
Until it gets to the point where you haven't done anything. Then i can call you a hypocrite as you said there was time for all the causes.
There simply isn't and no matter which way you slice it, there is simply too much to care about in the world to focus on it all..............................


If you can't be bothered reading what I actually wrote, or if your comprehension skills have slipped since I last frequented these forums, then there's not much to say. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on July 29, 2022, 09:10:02 pm
If you can't be bothered reading what I actually wrote, or if your comprehension skills have slipped since I last frequented these forums, then there's not much to say. 

Quote
I think there is more than enough time to do your bit, even with the plethora of causes that exist in what is IMO a broken world. You don't have to give your life to a cause, but there are plenty of things to be done, even if they're only small.

Can you remember what you wrote?

What have you done to save the whales?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on August 01, 2022, 03:15:46 pm
Someone had to start this new conversation given the talk about an Indigenous voice in parliament. 

I want to state that I have no opposition to an indigenous voice in parliament up front, so people can understand that what I am about to state next, doesn't come from anywhere but a genuine confusion on what this whole shemozzle of an idea is about.

Parliamentary officials, are elected to represent the people and govern on their behalf.  I am genuinely confused, as to why they are now creating a position, which doubles up on their duty.  Indigenous people, have the right to vote, and have the ability to vote for their representatives if they wish to do so.

What exactly is this whole endeavour for, and whom does it benefit?  The answer to me is clear, the pigs at the trough get another position to ensure that no indigenous aspiring politican takes their seat.  Id rather see some indigenous people running for seats in the next election, than simply creating yet another virtue signalled position in government.

The politicians continue to take the mickey out of us and then ride the gravy train into retirement when people are struggling to put food on the table and power their houses in the current economic environment.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on August 01, 2022, 05:30:49 pm
Someone had to start this new conversation given the talk about an Indigenous voice in parliament. 

I want to state that I have no opposition to an indigenous voice in parliament up front, so people can understand that what I am about to state next, doesn't come from anywhere but a genuine confusion on what this whole shemozzle of an idea is about.

Parliamentary officials, are elected to represent the people and govern on their behalf.  I am genuinely confused, as to why they are now creating a position, which doubles up on their duty.  Indigenous people, have the right to vote, and have the ability to vote for their representatives if they wish to do so.

What exactly is this whole endeavour for, and whom does it benefit?  The answer to me is clear, the pigs at the trough get another position to ensure that no indigenous aspiring politican takes their seat.  Id rather see some indigenous people running for seats in the next election, than simply creating yet another virtue signalled position in government.

The politicians continue to take the mickey out of us and then ride the gravy train into retirement when people are struggling to put food on the table and power their houses in the current economic environment.

To answer your question.

I think its hard for minorities to get majority.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on August 01, 2022, 05:44:40 pm
^
Nope.  Anyone who votes is represented by the candidate in their electorate.  You have missed my point.

Politicians serve their electorate. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on August 01, 2022, 05:50:20 pm
^
Nope.  Anyone who votes is represented by the candidate in their electorate.  You have missed my point.

Politicians serve their electorate. 
I get that, but how is a voice going to get into parliament if the minorities can never get a majority?

I'm not saying i agree or disagree, just pointing out the opposing view.

Whats the alternative?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 01, 2022, 07:41:03 pm
^
Nope.  Anyone who votes is represented by the candidate in their electorate.  You have missed my point.

Politicians serve their electorate. 
Politicians are in it to get in, serve some time doing SFA, qualify for a pension and then get a free ride for ever. They couldnt give a flying fork about you or I.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Professer E on August 01, 2022, 08:07:35 pm
So who is Thorpe representing.... A minority group or the electorate?  Government for the 1% or the 99%?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on August 01, 2022, 08:29:25 pm
The end answer (and it won't be in my life time or even my children's....because theres a lot of ground to make up) is that there will come a time when there is no need for a representation of any minority groups...we'll all be accepted as one and the same.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on August 01, 2022, 09:43:22 pm
I believe Indigenous voice is about getting recognition of the first peoples into the constitution and then having an advisory group which doesn't fill a full parliamentary function.

Prof, Lydia is the other side of the fence to Pauline, so represents the other side of Pauline.   Or the way she carries on, just herself.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on August 01, 2022, 10:18:24 pm
I heard an Aboriginal bloke on the wireless today who gave a very good reason why an Indigenous voice to Parliament would be a good thing.

Basically, he said that, as a taxpayer, he was unhappy about the money that is spent on programs for Indigenous folk and doesn’t produce the intended/desired outcomes.  He felt that having an Indigenous voice to Parliament would mean that Government funding for Indigenous programs would be better targeted and produce better outcomes.  That would be a win-win.

The first time I voted in a Commonwealth election, I voted for Neville Bonner who became the first ever Indigenous person in Parliament.  However, Senator Bonner and the Indigenous people in the current Parliament are there to represent their electorates, not just Indigenous people (who would make up a small percentage of the voters in most electorates).

I don’t know the mechanics of the Indigenous voice, no-one does at this stage, but I am familiar with The Uluru Statement from the Heart.  It’s advocating constitutional change to improve representation of Indigenous Australians to the Commonwealth Government.  Victoria already has such an arrangement in place and South Australia is establishing its Indigenous representative body.  The sky hasn’t fallen in Victoria and I suspect that it won’t in South Australia … or the Commonwealth.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on August 01, 2022, 11:17:47 pm
If you were the folks framing this legislation /ammendment you would want to do extensive polling to make sure it would  get up before proceeding. It would be terribly damaging, divisive and disconcerting  to indigenous folk if it failed.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on August 02, 2022, 12:05:37 am
If you were the folks framing this legislation /ammendment you would want to do extensive polling to make sure it would  get up before proceeding. It would be terribly damaging, divisive and disconcerting  to indigenous folk if it failed.

Absolutely Lods!

The way to kill a referendum is to focus on the detail of the implementation, as Howard did with the monarchy referendum.  Success generally comes with a focus on broad principles.  The 1967 referendum simply asked whether the constitution should be amended, " to give the Commonwealth Parliament the power to make laws with respect to Aboriginal people in Australia, and to include Aboriginal people in national censuses."  The critical factor in the success of the 1967 referendum was that it had bipartisan support and a no case was not presented.  If there's a no case this time, it's hard to see how the referendum could succeed.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 02, 2022, 12:52:36 am
I heard an Aboriginal bloke on the wireless today who gave a very good reason why an Indigenous voice to Parliament would be a good thing.

Basically, he said that, as a taxpayer, he was unhappy about the money that is spent on programs for Indigenous folk and doesn’t produce the intended/desired outcomes.  He felt that having an Indigenous voice to Parliament would mean that Government funding for Indigenous programs would be better targeted and produce better outcomes.  That would be a win-win.
But is that the voice you will hear, or one more radical?
 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Macca37 on August 02, 2022, 01:35:54 am
In theory the idea of an indigenous voice commenting  to the government of the day on proposed legislation affecting indigenous people is excellent.  My concern arises from implementing such a voice in a way that truely represents the indigenous communities.

The media tends to falsely project the idea that indigenous communities for the most part agree on any given subject.  Given that there are many clans with different languages and customs, including inhabitants of remote communities with little or no knowledge of the  English language or of life outside their own community, what would be the means of selecting truely representative indigenous people?

On another loosely related matter that really gets under my skin is the fact that the eloquent, university educated indigenous people who are rightly pushing for the voice, conveniently ignore the elephant in the room, namely, the domestic violence and child sexual abuse which is between two to five times higher, and higher again in remote communities, than in the non indigenous population.

They must be aware of the situation.  Back in January 2011 the Australian Institute of Criminology published a paper "Non-disclosure of violence in Australian indigenous communities." The Conclusion stated:

The high levels of violence and abuse seen in some indigenous communities are closely linked to a wide range of other problems such as community disfunction, marginalisation, disempowerment, poverty, alcohol and substance use and other social behaviours.These are major problems with difficult solutions that are well beyond the range of this paper ..........A number of the inquiries and reports cited in this paper show that violence and abuse are so prevalent in some communities that they are seen as inevitable, as something to be tolerated and not disclosed.  People in all communities have a fundamental right to live without the expectation that they, or those around them, will be violently victimised.  Moving past this to an expectation that victimisation is atypical and intolerable is undeniably necessary.

Surely there are enough problems outlined there, and in many other inquiries and reports, requiring practical solutions that one would expect indigenous supporters of their rights  to be clamouring for government funding for further research.  But where are they?

As a side note, quite some years ago in my professional occupation I accompanied a federal committee examining the working conditions of indigenous women on cattle stations in Queensland, NT and Western Australia and observed firsthand the poverty and absolute hopelessness of the people.  An anthropologist from UNSW who specialised in indigenous customs and practices who accompanied us said the problems are insoluble.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 02, 2022, 08:09:33 am

Prof, Lydia is the other side of the fence to Pauline, so represents the other side of Pauline.  Or the way she carries on, just herself.
What is that saying about extremes, something about if you go far enough either way you meet in the middle!

Some people will see that raised arm as a unifying cry for help, others see it as a salute to anarchy! I can't help but think Thorpe does stuff like that to feather her own nest, spend a lot of time on US forums telling the politically motivated how the indigenous plight here is as bad or worse than the equivalent of what happens in the USA. Leveraging the fact we are half a globe away and nobody will ever be bothered to cross check the facts.

There is just as much money in rebellion as there is in unification, but some see rebellion as a much easier way forward, you can motivate the mob and let them do the work for you!

Do we just turn a blind eye to radicals skimming the cream in the knowledge that some of the support / cash will make it to where we intend, after all this is what it is about for many of the louder voices, a cash settlement?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on August 02, 2022, 09:17:58 am
I heard an Aboriginal bloke on the wireless today who gave a very good reason why an Indigenous voice to Parliament would be a good thing.

Basically, he said that, as a taxpayer, he was unhappy about the money that is spent on programs for Indigenous folk and doesn’t produce the intended/desired outcomes.  He felt that having an Indigenous voice to Parliament would mean that Government funding for Indigenous programs would be better targeted and produce better outcomes.  That would be a win-win.

The first time I voted in a Commonwealth election, I voted for Neville Bonner who became the first ever Indigenous person in Parliament.  However, Senator Bonner and the Indigenous people in the current Parliament are there to represent their electorates, not just Indigenous people (who would make up a small percentage of the voters in most electorates).

I don’t know the mechanics of the Indigenous voice, no-one does at this stage, but I am familiar with The Uluru Statement from the Heart.  It’s advocating constitutional change to improve representation of Indigenous Australians to the Commonwealth Government.  Victoria already has such an arrangement in place and South Australia is establishing its Indigenous representative body.  The sky hasn’t fallen in Victoria and I suspect that it won’t in South Australia … or the Commonwealth.



Thank you.  This is the sort of answer I was looking for.

The one thing I want to add, is anyone ever happy with how the government uses money?

If this leads to less wasted money that's a good thing, but my suspicion is that there will be frequent demand for more to be spent on indigenous people (which is generally the status quo at federal level).

I think Macca37 raises an interesting point with respect to how the mechanics of the indigenous voice will work with the different communities, language and effectively nations that exist in Australia.  I do know that a government institution in Victoria, hired the wrong person from an indigenous background to serve as indigenous liasion in a health care service, and that person was from Queensland with the result that it did more harm than good for the people in that Victorian community and resulted in them being disengaged. 

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on August 02, 2022, 09:50:02 am
I think Macca37 raises an interesting point with respect to how the mechanics of the indigenous voice will work with the different communities, language and effectively nations that exist in Australia.  I do know that a government institution in Victoria, hired the wrong person from an indigenous background to serve as indigenous liasion in a health care service, and that person was from Queensland with the result that it did more harm than good for the people in that Victorian community and resulted in them being disengaged.

On a previous theme....if you want to see a 'rainbow' have a look at a map of the indigenous groups within Australia.

I remember when I first started teaching I was sitting with a young indigenous lad.
He was from the Northern Territory and somehow or other had found himself caught up in the NSW  juvenile Justice system.

We were watching a game of touch football and more than half the boys were indigenous inner city kids.
We talked about home and the the things he liked to do...a lot of hunting and fishing, very little schooling was pretty much the things he enjoyed.

He pointed to the group playing football and said..."See these blokes, they're 'yellowfellas' (I'm not sure why he picked that colour but he did). They don't know any of that stuff."
He saw 'himself' as different.

So finding that united indigenous voice may still be a challenge in this day and age.
Some issues are universal, others are area or people specific.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 02, 2022, 09:50:25 am
I do know that a government institution in Victoria, hired the wrong person from an indigenous background to serve as indigenous liasion in a health care service, and that person was from Queensland with the result that it did more harm than good for the people in that Victorian community and resulted in them being disengaged.
Yes, I've experienced examples of this first-hand in R&D and also heard accounts of similar things happening in Education. There's quite a bit of irony hiding in the detail.

It will be a weakness of the system if it is not designed carefully, because enemies and manipulators will leverage the inherent prejudice that exists.

I can recall similar events early on when NZ went down this path, and despite clear progress the initial result was also that many crooks quickly rose to the top of the pecking order, and for many that meant it wasn't seen as representative.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 02, 2022, 09:57:45 am
He saw 'himself' as different.
A family member has had a similar experience in Education while being involved in the administration of an indigenous scholarship scheme, the problem is far more complex than the wider public accept.

Racism is a human trait, not the exclusive societal or institutional racism that some like to make out. It is equally represented from all perspectives, and the debate about power and wealth somehow being a demarcation or delineation is mostly a smokescreen used to excuse reciprocal behaviour.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on August 02, 2022, 10:33:49 am
But is that the voice you will hear, or one more radical?

Victoria’s first people’s assembly is far from radical - much to the annoyance of more  radical folk.

A representative body would reflect the views of their constituents and would include conservative, progressive and radical voices.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on August 02, 2022, 11:13:59 am
On a previous theme....if you want to see a 'rainbow' have a look at a map of the indigenous groups within Australia.

I remember when I first started teaching I was sitting with a young indigenous lad.
He was from the Northern Territory and somehow or other had found himself caught up in the NSW  juvenile Justice system.

We were watching a game of touch football and more than half the boys were indigenous inner city kids.
We talked about home and the the things he liked to do...a lot of hunting and fishing, very little schooling was pretty much the things he enjoyed.

He pointed to the group playing football and said..."See these blokes, they're 'yellowfellas' (I'm not sure why he picked that colour but he did). They don't know any of that stuff."
He saw 'himself' as different.

So finding that united indigenous voice may still be a challenge in this day and age.
Some issues are universal, others are area or people specific.

Have a listen to the Warumpi Band’s “Black Fella, White Fella” Lods.

The emergence of Indigenous leaders like Pearson, Wyatt, Burney and Dodson has diluted the Yella Fella tag that was once widespread in northern Australia.  I suspect that the success of Indigenous footballers of all hues has played a part too.  And then there’s the influence of artists like the late, great Archie Roach.

However, it is to be expected that self-interest plays a part in expectations in Indigenous communities as it does in all parts of society.

Programs failing because the wrong person was employed is generally code for the program not being adequately planned.  Even in traditional owner and cultural heritage organisations, it’s common for off country people to be employed.   Several Victorian peak Indigenous organisations are led by interstate people.

Victoria’s first people’s assembly works well.  It was set up after extensive consultation to establish how best to represent Indigenous Victorians.  It doesn’t suit everyone, perhaps because it gives a voice to ordinary folk and not just the outspoken.  I would imagine that any Indigenous voice to the Commonwealth Parliament would require a similar consultation process.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 02, 2022, 01:53:18 pm
Victoria’s first people’s assembly is far from radical - much to the annoyance of more  radical folk.

A representative body would reflect the views of their constituents and would include conservative, progressive and radical voices.
Yes, it seems so.

But on the fringe there are some real whack jobs and they are chipping around the edges!

A great example are flags.

There was outrage that local councils had to pay to fly the Indigenous flag, then the Feds fixed that problem and the Indigenous flag was flying freely at locations all over the state.               But wait, there's more!                   All of a sudden councils had to fly the "Local Tribe's Indigenous Flag" or else it is disrespectful, apparently not everyone thinks the Indigenous flag is their flag, did you even know Local Indigenous Tribes had a flag, and if so when did they come into existence? :o

You guessed it, there is a fee for flying the Local Tribe's Indigenous Flag, who would have thunk it! ::)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on August 02, 2022, 02:11:15 pm
Yes, it seems so.

But on the fringe there are some real whack jobs and they are chipping around the edges!

A great example are flags.

There was outrage that local councils had to pay to fly the Indigenous flag, then the Feds fixed that problem and the Indigenous flag was flying freely at locations all over the state.               But wait, there's more!                   All of a sudden councils had to fly the "Local Tribe's Indigenous Flag" or else it is disrespectful, apparently not everyone thinks the Indigenous flag is their flag, did you even know Local Indigenous Tribes had a flag, and if so when did they come into existence? :o

You guessed it, there is a fee for flying the Local Tribe's Indigenous Flag, who would have thunk it! ::)

There are whack jobs chipping away at the finges of every community, group, club, organisation, religion, etc.  Why should Indigenous communities be any different?

The local flags issue is not an issue.  Only the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander flags are officially recognised. While club pennants may be flown with National, State and the two Indigenous flags, you can't just invent a flag and have it flown on public buildings.  I have never heard of any local council being asked to fly a "local Aboriginal community flag" and they wouldn't be permitted to do so if they were.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 02, 2022, 02:16:07 pm
You can't just invent a flag and have it flown on public buildings.  I have never heard of any local council being asked to fly a "local Aboriginal community flag" and they wouldn't be permitted to do so if they were.
I never claimed State or Fed buildings were doing this, I was specific in referring to Councils, Local Councils are not constrained by the same regulations if it isn't banned like the Swastika they can fly it and will be invoiced accordingly!

There are two Vic councils were this is happening right now, today, at least while the wind isn't too brisk! Further, there are councils that have been invoiced for Tribal Flags flying over sacred spaces, spaces that the council allocated public land for such a purpose identifying it with a Tribal and Indigenous flag. The land was reserved / gifted effectively for free, in one case there was a gold coin exchange to make it legal, but the council pays to fly the flag, it's a scam!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on August 02, 2022, 08:46:32 pm
I never claimed State or Fed buildings were doing this, I was specific in referring to Councils, Local Councils are not constrained by the same regulations if it isn't banned like the Swastika they can fly it and will be invoiced accordingly!

There are two Vic councils were this is happening right now, today, at least while the wind isn't too brisk! Further, there are councils that have been invoiced for Tribal Flags flying over sacred spaces, spaces that the council allocated public land for such a purpose identifying it with a Tribal and Indigenous flag. The land was reserved / gifted effectively for free, in one case there was a gold coin exchange to make it legal, but the council pays to fly the flag, it's a scam!

Local councils are bound by the flag regulations and cannot fly unauthorised flags. 

Which two councils and which ‘sacred places’ were ‘gifted/reserved’?  I’m more than happy to check with the relevant Aboriginal organisations.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on August 03, 2022, 09:32:49 am
Something else regarding the disingenuine media and click bait.

Recently there was a bit of a kerfuffle about China crashing space junk into the Indian Ocean near Malaysia that was potentially dangerous.  A bit of a stoush between NASA and China over whether or not it was safe or not to do so.  Mainly hyperbolic no one hurt etc.

On the news yesterday, the news presenters here on Channel 7 decided to try and loosely link these events to space junk crash landing in a paddock near Jindabyne in southern NSW.  Thing is, they initially stated on the news that it was from China, went on to describe the fins as one from the Space X rocket (Elon Musk's), only to conclude that they are yet to attribute the space junk to anyone at this point in time, and then cut to some excited space nerds who simply played the ball with a straight bat, stated no one was harmed, then stated that someone could have been harmed.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/huge-piece-of-space-junk-from-elon-musks-spacex-lands-on-farm-in-southern-nsw/ar-AA10adbs

Whats with the stir up of anti Chinese sentiment?

Sure, they cant be trusted politically, but they are a trading partner, last I checked the majority of space junk has been generated by none other than the USA or Russia (pick 1 it would be more accurate) and the Indian Ocean near Malaysia is a far cry from Jindabyne in NSW.

Very irresponsible reporting IMHO.  There are plenty of reasons to dislike China, and this is probably not one of them. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 03, 2022, 09:59:58 am
Sure, they cant be trusted politically, but they are a trading partner, last I checked the majority of space junk has been generated by none other than the USA or Russia (pick 1 it would be more accurate) and the Indian Ocean near Malaysia is a far cry from Jindabyne in NSW.
Firstly, the media plays on paranoia, distrust and hatred, they pick up on it, it is the media version of blood in the water!

In regional areas China has been buying up lots of rural property, then they close up shop and bring in imported workers, I know this because I have a contact who was just about to sign a big deal to sell a large cattle property(> 50Kha) and refused to sell to them when he found out they were going to kibosh all his long serving staff and replace them with imported workers and managers. Regretfully he had to sell to Elders which he saw as the lesser of two evils, but still very distasteful.

So I suspect the media a playing on the regional distrust of China.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 03, 2022, 10:04:12 am
Local councils are bound by the flag regulations and cannot fly unauthorised flags. 

Which two councils and which ‘sacred places’ were ‘gifted/reserved’?  I’m more than happy to check with the relevant Aboriginal organisations.
Then read up on what is happening in Moreland and Kingston, plus similar proposals taken to council for debate in Stonnington, Mornington and Casey. Two of the affected cities are councils stacked with covert candidates, who as extinction rebellion members who were bankrolled and elected without revealing their political allegiances, they are slightly left to say the very least!

It's no coincidence that some of these councils flew the Indigenous flag at half-mast on Australia Day.

One of those councils took the same to a debate, defeated the proposal to fly the Aboriginal Flag and/or other Indigenous Flags at half-mast on Australia Day by a margin of one vote, and the councillors have been targeted by protestors ever since, labelled fascists and generally abused.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on August 03, 2022, 10:26:51 am
Just read an article re what Edwardo Betts went through on 'that camp' when at the Crows. For someone steeped in indigenous Aussie spirituality, beliefs and culture this was nothing other than psychological abuse... IMHO.

And for someone who has undergone full-on military training (very early 70s) by Naval personnel (precursor to Seals), what Edwardo reported sounded very different to what I went through. Our training brought us together, tighter. Humiliation was minimal -- and when it did happen, it was couched in humour, the Aussie way -- mate ship, encouraging mates, going the extra to help a mate... etc., was the focus, along with extreme physical fitness, endurance, psychological pain/exhaustion management/strategies. And at the end of it we really loved and respected our trainers. The discipline and love of mate I learned during that training helped me enormously and gave me skills I still use to this day.

I recall Crows/Tiggers grand final day line-ups pre game when the Crows were lined up like a bunch of stiff, comical tough guy individual statues... and the Tiggers? Arms around each other.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 03, 2022, 12:30:01 pm
Just read an article re what Edwardo Betts went through on 'that camp' when at the Crows. For someone steeped in indigenous Aussie spirituality, beliefs and culture this was nothing other than psychological abuse... IMHO.

And for someone who has undergone full-on military training (very early 70s) by Naval personnel (precursor to Seals), what Edwardo reported sounded very different to what I went through. Our training brought us together, tighter. Humiliation was minimal -- and when it did happen, it was couched in humour, the Aussie way -- mate ship, encouraging mates, going the extra to help a mate... etc., was the focus, along with extreme physical fitness, endurance, psychological pain/exhaustion management/strategies. And at the end of it we really loved and respected our trainers. The discipline and love of mate I learned during that training helped me enormously and gave me skills I still use to this day.

I recall Crows/Tiggers grand final day line-ups pre game when the Crows were lined up like a bunch of stiff, comical tough guy individual statues... and the Tiggers? Arms around each other.
I heard Sam Edmund describe extracts from the book, the camp was nuts and players should have told them to GAGF'd.
Amongst a heap of stupid stuff, they were asked to do the power stance and cup the nut sack of the guy next to you (some sumo ritual apparently. The players refused thankfully.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on August 03, 2022, 01:07:22 pm
All clubs are on a seemingly never-ending quest to gain a competitive advantage - it's not in any way surprising that sooner or later one of them was going to veer off course into psychological and motivational La La land.

Betts' issues were not strictly related to indigenous issues - he also took offense (as he should) to a betrayal of trust, where private details about his childhood were aired in one of the sessions, details which he believed were to remain confidential.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on August 03, 2022, 01:19:48 pm
I heard Sam Edmund describe extracts from the book, the camp was nuts and players should have told them to GAGF'd.
Amongst a heap of stupid stuff, they were asked to do the power stance and cup the nut sack of the guy next to you (some sumo ritual apparently. The players refused thankfully.

Cup the nut sack lol. Taking things out of their cultural context is never wise, unless you really know what you're doing.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 03, 2022, 02:57:58 pm
Cup the nut sack lol. Taking things out of their cultural context is never wise, unless you really know what you're doing.
It sounds like that camp was run by a bunch of nutters (no pun intended) with little or no consultation with the player before hand. When youre going to run a program which is very left field, you must engage with the playing group with some prelim info to ensure there will be no problem.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on August 03, 2022, 03:40:45 pm
It sounds like that camp was run by a bunch of nutters (no pun intended) with little or no consultation with the player before hand. When youre going to run a program which is very left field, you must engage with the playing group with some prelim info to ensure there will be no problem.

Yes, I tend to agree. Up to now, Eddie has been by far the most vocal about the camp. I don't expect that to change. I think the club and players just want to put it behind them. And really, the only reason it's in the headlines again is because of pre-release extracts from Eddie's book that are doing the rounds.

This article, with a few quotes from Bryce Gibbs, adds another voice :

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2021-adelaide-crows-training-camp-gold-coast-bryce-gibbs-sas-cult-crows-saga/news-story/0b08df135a4e7c63a5c7b2b416c4e742
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 03, 2022, 04:16:43 pm
The camp was akin to a cult meeting, players probed for their past fears etc, a comedian brought in to probe players reactions by dressing up in different costumes. The Crows head Doctor wasnt even made aware of what was going to happen and none of the CMT leaders even had a degree in Psychology. That whole Collective Mind Training group should have been facing legal action, one player I believe collapsed and had to be taken away from the camp and was very unwell.
Dont know how anyone rates Don Pyke as a coach and I wouldnt want him anywhere near my football club and the same goes for Walker and Sloane who wouldnt admit how bad things were and I would have sacked them both as leaders on the spot.
We had team building/ bonding training companies try and build bonds with the Engineering staff and management at my previous employer and it was a complete waste of time, about the only satisfaction I got out of out it was flogging the leadership/admin staff in exercises such as building towers out of matchsticks and showing how hopeless they were at any sort of strategy exercises.
10k a day for 5 days was what that training group made out of that BS, it was all filmed on camera in these Uni training labs and critiqued by the training group mods who were teachers I believe with a big Review session that ended up in chaos creating more issues than solutions.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on August 03, 2022, 04:48:18 pm
It's where you need good leaders in the playing group who can give feed back both ways.

Dangerfield, Selwood, Cotchin, Reiwoldt, Hodge, Mitchell would have shut that crap down. I'm confident Cripps, Weitering, Docherty and Walsh are cut from the same cloth.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 03, 2022, 05:29:38 pm
The camp was akin to a cult meeting, players probed for their past fears etc, a comedian brought in to probe players reactions by dressing up in different costumes. The Crows head Doctor wasnt even made aware of what was going to happen and none of the CMT leaders even had a degree in Psychology. That whole Collective Mind Training group should have been facing legal action, one player I believe collapsed and had to be taken away from the camp and was very unwell.
Dont know how anyone rates Don Pyke as a coach and I wouldnt want him anywhere near my football club and the same goes for Walker and Sloane who wouldnt admit how bad things were and I would have sacked them both as leaders on the spot.
We had team building/ bonding training companies try and build bonds with the Engineering staff and management at my previous employer and it was a complete waste of time, about the only satisfaction I got out of out it was flogging the leadership/admin staff in exercises such as building towers out of matchsticks and showing how hopeless they were at any sort of strategy exercises.
10k a day for 5 days was what that training group made out of that BS, it was all filmed on camera in these Uni training labs and critiqued by the training group mods who were teachers I believe with a big Review session that ended up in chaos creating more issues than solutions.
Company management often leaves a bit to desired EB. They fall for the fancy BS advertising by these so called leadership consultants who wouldn't know leadership if it was up them. These companies dream up the BS strategies and systems all based on supposed points of difference to their competitors. They are all nutters if you ask me, its the leaders of the companies that should be delivering the training. Ill lay London to a brick that Brian Cook would eat these sessions for breakfast, he has probably forgotten more about culture and leadership than these cretins will ever know.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on August 03, 2022, 05:38:55 pm
Just read an article re what Edwardo Betts went through on 'that camp' when at the Crows. For someone steeped in indigenous Aussie spirituality, beliefs and culture this was nothing other than psychological abuse... IMHO.

And for someone who has undergone full-on military training (very early 70s) by Naval personnel (precursor to Seals), what Edwardo reported sounded very different to what I went through. Our training brought us together, tighter. Humiliation was minimal -- and when it did happen, it was couched in humour, the Aussie way -- mate ship, encouraging mates, going the extra to help a mate... etc., was the focus, along with extreme physical fitness, endurance, psychological pain/exhaustion management/strategies. And at the end of it we really loved and respected our trainers. The discipline and love of mate I learned during that training helped me enormously and gave me skills I still use to this day.

I recall Crows/Tiggers grand final day line-ups pre game when the Crows were lined up like a bunch of stiff, comical tough guy individual statues... and the Tiggers? Arms around each other.
I read the same thing. Lots of culturally insensitive stuff and lots of bollocks in the form of 'manning up'.

Not being allowed to shower, so you could be more manly etc etc.

Not sure how cupping your mates package gets you to be more manly, but hey, each to their own!  :o

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on August 03, 2022, 06:07:45 pm
Then read up on what is happening in Moreland and Kingston, plus similar proposals taken to council for debate in Stonnington, Mornington and Casey. Two of the affected cities are councils stacked with covert candidates, who as extinction rebellion members who were bankrolled and elected without revealing their political allegiances, they are slightly left to say the very least!

It's no coincidence that some of these councils flew the Indigenous flag at half-mast on Australia Day.

One of those councils took the same to a debate, defeated the proposal to fly the Aboriginal Flag and/or other Indigenous Flags at half-mast on Australia Day by a margin of one vote, and the councillors have been targeted by protestors ever since, labelled fascists and generally abused.

Moreland is in the Wurundjeri-Woiwurrung traditional owner area and Kingston, Casey, Stonnington and Mornington are in the Bunurong traditional owner area.  Neither of those groups have  their own flags and none of those councils have gifted land to the traditional owners.  In fact, no Aboriginal groups in Victoria have their own flag; they all use the Harold Thomas flag.

It’s pretty clear that the claim that Aboriginal groups were charging local governments a fee for flying their own flags is false.  The claim about “sacred places” gifted to Aboriginal groups is also false.

Who knows what local government councillors get up to.? Their “initiatives” generally reflect their beliefs and are usually developed without the local Aboriginal group’s knowledge or input.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on August 03, 2022, 08:06:46 pm
I read the same thing. Lots of culturally insensitive stuff and lots of bollocks in the form of 'manning up'.

Not being allowed to shower, so you could be more manly etc etc.

Not sure how cupping your mates package gets you to be more manly, but hey, each to their own!  :o



Are you insinuating that guys that cup another guys manhood are less manly than those who don't?

Honest question.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 03, 2022, 08:07:53 pm
Who knows what local government councillors get up to.? Their “initiatives” generally reflect their beliefs and are usually developed without the local Aboriginal group’s knowledge or input.
I wouldn't any of them, I live in Darebin, the worst and most embarrassing council in Melbourne by the length of Conrod Straight.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 03, 2022, 08:26:23 pm
Are you insinuating that guys that cup another guys manhood are less manly than those who don't?

Honest question.


Answering Kruds question too, guess it implies a duty of care and a level of responsibility..in an awkward way.. :-[  which can be seen as manly.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on August 03, 2022, 08:50:50 pm
Are you insinuating that guys that cup another guys manhood are less manly than those who don't?

Honest question.
No i'm saying it has no bearing on manliness....just a weird thing to get players to do (under any circumstances) but under a banner of manliness?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Professer E on August 03, 2022, 09:00:17 pm
I'd tell the bloke running the show to GAGF,  even he had three stripes.

Some sh1t crosses a line and a lot of that camp sound like that.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 03, 2022, 11:07:11 pm
Moreland is in the Wurundjeri-Woiwurrung traditional owner area and Kingston, Casey, Stonnington and Mornington are in the Bunurong traditional owner area.  Neither of those groups have  their own flags and none of those councils have gifted land to the traditional owners.  In fact, no Aboriginal groups in Victoria have their own flag; they all use the Harold Thomas flag.

It’s pretty clear that the claim that Aboriginal groups were charging local governments a fee for flying their own flags is false.  The claim about “sacred places” gifted to Aboriginal groups is also false.

Who knows what local government councillors get up to.? Their “initiatives” generally reflect their beliefs and are usually developed without the local Aboriginal group’s knowledge or input.
I get that there may be no official involvement from the Indigenous groups, but I'm not surprised as I was referring to what I believe to be dodgy disingenuous behaviour.

I've never heard of or seen any Indigenous Tribal flags before very recent times, when I gather someone pegged that there may be a quid in it for them or their mates!

I'd love for the traditional elders step forward and call out the fakes and the fake claims, because if they don't they are basically sanctioning the behaviour.

As for councils following whatever laws there may be, I drive past council chambers every morning, and every week there is a different weird flag flying even in gale force winds like today. This week flapping around was a Rainbow Pride flag, wedged between the Indigenous and Torres Strait Islander flags, and what I thought was an EU flag but when I got to work and checked it was a Non-Binary Pride Flag. So I think the official regulations aren't worth much at all!

FFS, Kingston used to have a bloke who flew the Nazi flag long with many others in his front yard, and the council and authorities did feck all about it for decades. It became well known and a sick novelty to drive past and see what shizen was flying each day!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on August 04, 2022, 09:20:31 am
If you have about 50 minutes, this is compelling viewing.
The reporting/thoughts/reactions/opinions from Whateley, Hodge and Lyon I found especially strong, clear and top shelf reporting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWYgnoCHhd8

Eddie Betts has done his bit as a leader in general and as a leader of his people. Courage and honesty. He has given the indigenous community and the community as a whole much to respect, even be inspired by.

Oh, and Tex... you were quoted as saying that 'the camp' made you a better man, was that on display last year with 'those' words that came out of your mouth? Time to come clean, fella.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on August 04, 2022, 02:53:07 pm
The US Supreme Court’s decision to scrap Roe v Wade has created an interesting problem for the Republicans. For 50 years, opposition to abortions has been an easy way to fire up the religious right without ever having to do anything in Congress. While it was the law of the land, Roe v Wade meant that Congress was unable to pass any laws against abortion that would withstand legal challenge. Like a bloke whose friends are holding him back physically from getting into a punch on, the Republicans were free to yell out threats to get rid of abortion without the risk of losing the fight.

For 50 years, women have been confident that Roe v Wade would continue to guarantee the right to an abortion. That meant it was difficult to motivate women to vote to preserve that right. While Republicans dreamt of reversing Roe v Wade by installing a conservative President with a compliant Republican majority in the Senate so religious conservatives could control the Supreme Court, female Democratic voters were apathetic. Sure enough, Hillary couldn’t turn them out by stressing that Trump would pack the court with religious conservatives and that’s exactly what happened.

Now, the Republicans are living the saying, “Be careful what you wish for because your wish might come true.”

Women now realise the only way to avoid The Handmaids Tale coming to life is to vote Democrat at Federal and State levels. Sure, women of the religious right will no doubt continue to fight to ban abortions completely, but the less religious conservative women and independents may change their votes. Even Donald Trump warned that the reversal of Roe v Wade may work against the GOP.

A vote in ruby-red Kansas has brought this into sharp relief. That State’s constitution guarantees the right to abortion and the GOP proposed an amendment to abolish that guarantee. The GOP controlled legislature would then have been able to join the other Red States in banning abortion (although the GOP tried to deny that this was what they wanted to do). They ran this vote together with the Democratic and Republican primaries which should have helped them pass the amendment as independent voters were left out and Democratic voters don’t turn out in big numbers for primaries. But the amendment was voted down by nearly 60% of voters.

Opinion polls suggest the reversal of Roe v Wade is quite unpopular. If the Democrats can harness this sentiment, the widely expected loss of the House and Senate in the midterms in November might not eventuate.



Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on August 04, 2022, 02:58:43 pm
I cant actually believe they revoked abortion rights. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on August 04, 2022, 03:09:42 pm
The “reasoning” in the Dobbs decision would also enable the Supreme Court to reverse decisions that recognised the right to same-sex marriage and mixed marriage as well as those which prohibited racial and sexual discrimination in voting and other scenarios. The Supreme Court merely needs to wait for cases that challenge those rights so that the conservative majority can get rid of those rights too. Gays and blacks have even more reason to vote for Democrats in November.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on August 04, 2022, 03:46:14 pm
Disempowering anyone who isn't white, male, hetero and wealthy. Fairly standard approach when the wealthy and powerful are determined to turn the US into a Fascist state. The parallels with Nazi Germany are disturbing.

Whilst the Democrats are better than the alternative, I'm guessing they are also concerned about upsetting the elites. I haven't researched this too closely, but I believe the Democrats had chances over the last 50 years to codify Roe V Wade into law, but never did. Obama I believe claimed that signing this into law would be one of the first things he would do as President. Never happened.

The popular vote seems to be very much in favor of abortion rights. The Federal government is certainly not serving the people.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on August 04, 2022, 05:45:47 pm
Remember that the Howard Government would have been seen as rabid Socialists in the US and the Fraser Government would have been seen as fanatical Communists. The Democratic Party is a centre-right party as that’s about as left-wing as the mainstream can stomach.

After dealing with the GFC, Obama prioritised Obamacare and there’s a fair argument he was right to do so. It withstood a concerted attempt by the Republicans under Trump to repeal it and it has remained pretty popular. It has also been a shining symbol of how the Democrats in Congress can improve life for Americans.

Getting Obamacare passed was a slugfest. The Republicans opposed it fanatically, dreaming up such things as Death Panels to attack it. In the end, 36 Democrats in the House voted against it and the Democrats were only able to pass it in the Senate because the 60 Democrat Senators were able to defeat the filibuster. The Senate passed the Bill at the end of 2009, but in January 2010 a Republican won a special election to replace the deceased Senator Ted Kennedy and the Democrats would never again have the 60 votes needed to defeat the filibuster. Given Mitch McConnell was implementing a policy of opposing everything Obama wanted there was never any chance that a Bill to codify Roe v Wade would pass in the Senate. (The Democrats could have killed the filibuster with a simple majority but they chose not to do so out of fear that McConnell would kill the filibuster when he was next in power, but he did that anyway.)

It was amazing that Obama and Pelosi were able to push it through given that they were asking many Democrats to commit career suicide. The Tea Party candidates were able to capitalise and the GOP took control of the House and flipped a few seats in the Senate.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on August 04, 2022, 06:18:35 pm
The present obstacle to passing a Bill to codify Roe v Wade is that the Democrats only have 50 Senators. Unfortunately, 2 of those Senators, Manchin and Sinema have ruled out killing the filibuster, so it would need 10 Republican Senators to vote in favour of it. Good luck with that!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on August 05, 2022, 01:18:08 pm
Mav, no doubt your knowledge in these areas is better than mine. I heard a figure from Chris Hedges that said the GOP and Democrats agree on roughly 90% of legislation. And I'm not sure exactly how you define mainstream - I suspect the positioning of the Dems as far right as they are is more the work of the DNC, not the rank and file. Bernie Sanders enjoyed considerable popular support in 2016 and 2020, and failed to win the nomination both times. The wealthy elites that have real power in the DNC hate Sanders, they hate his ideals, and they worked diligently to install a more complaint, obedient figure like Biden. The Squad, so far as I can tell, exert very little influence on policy. As much as it pains me to say it,  they seem to be little more than window dressing, existing to give some kind of weight to the idea that the Dems are "for the people." At least that's how I see it.

I'm not really convinced that the failures of the Dems to enact "people first" legislation is solely down to GOP roadblocks, even if the latter is ably led by that despicable Mitch "there's no such thing as too low" McConnell.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 05, 2022, 02:10:46 pm
I'm not really convinced that the failures of the Dems to enact "people first" legislation is solely down to GOP roadblocks, even if the latter is ably led by that despicable Mitch "there's no such thing as too low" McConnell.
In terms of US and local politics, often I have to wonder how much of that apparent inability to progress due to a roadblock or other external interference, really turns out to be based on a mutual benefit be it ever so subtle!

Intent can be rather plastic.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on August 05, 2022, 03:13:29 pm
Lobbyists and dark money certainly create a disconnect between popular support for legislation and what can be passed into law. For instance, gun reform is pretty popular according to surveys but the NRA has managed to kill any attempts to pass sensible restrictions. Trying to wean the US off fossil fuels is likewise exceedingly difficult. The Koch brothers have been GOP megadonors and their money comes from fossil fuels. Senator Joe Manchin is a Democrat but he’s also a coal baron from a pretty conservative State (West Virginia). He’s able to single-handedly shoot down any Bill that comes before the Senate as McConnell will line up 50 Republican Senators behind him. Unsurprisingly, he doesn’t like Biden’s energy policies or a raft of progressive policies.

Unfortunately, the Democrats have to deal with the reality that they can’t get popular legislation through Congress. As well as the problems of dark money and lobbying, they also have to face a rigged electoral system distorted by gerrymandering and voter suppression at state level and a conservative Supreme Court that stands ready to kill progressive White House action (for example, it ruled that Biden couldn’t use existing powers to phase out coal-fired power generation and as mentioned above there’s no way the Congress will give him that power).

I would love to see more progressive policies being pursued, but everyone in the US knows Congress is broken and campaigning on those policies is almost dishonest. Biden argued that he could break the deadlock in Congress by reaching out to Republicans. He had a history of doing so in the Senate back in the day. But his hopes of bipartisan deal making have been dashed. He was so desperate to get some cooperation that he reached a highly dubious deal with Mitch McConnell. He agreed to nominate an anti-abortion judge in Kentucky if McConnell agreed to let Biden’s judicial appointments go through. This was lunacy as McConnell would have broken his promise after pocketing the judge he wanted. This caused consternation amongst Democrats as this deal was revealed in the wake of the Supreme Court reversing Roe v Wade and would have undermined Democrats campaigning on pro-choice policies. As it was, the deal was blocked by McConnell’s fellow Republican Senator for Kentucky, Rand Paul, who threw a hissy fit because he wasn’t kept in the loop.

I guess if you’re going to be impotent if you win elections as a Democrat, you might as well offer the Sun and the moon to inspire the voters, but you have to be extremely pragmatic and crafty once you are elected. And progressive voters have to be satisfied with small successes here and there.

Perhaps Bernie might have won in 2016, but remember that Hillary won the popular vote handily and she probably would have become President if FBI Director James Comey hadn’t delivered his October surprise by announcing he was reopening the investigation into the emails only to shut it down a few days later. Bernie wasn’t as popular with black voters as Hillary and it’s the black voters who delivered victory for Joe Biden in 2020. Picking Joe Biden as the candidate in 2020 was a pretty reasonable choice as he was the guy who was going to cause Trump the most problems. Trump had identified him quite early as the guy he needed to kill off. He went after him in particular at his rallies and we now know he had been trying to get dirt on him well before he was nominated as the Democratic Presidential candidate. Given how important it was to beat Trump, I can certainly understand why Democrats went with the safe option.

There’s some small hope coming out of Georgia. Stacey Abrams is a star and is spearheading a voting rights campaign which seems to have helped the Democrats win both Senate seats in Georgia and she’ll be running for Governor come November. If she can win support in such a ruby red State, anything is possible.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on August 16, 2022, 04:08:48 pm
It seems that Scotty from marketing was right when he sermonised about people not trusting governments ... and particularly any governments that he has a role with  ::)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 16, 2022, 04:13:21 pm
It seems that Scotty from marketing was right when he sermonised about people not trusting governments ... and particularly any governments that he has a role with  ::)
It's a bit hard to judge this, as much as I want to slam Scotty the facts are not yet known, the media will want to paint it one way, however the implementation was clearly dodgy.

For example, I could argue that early in the pandemic the needs for leadership, governance and management were not clear. In this regard it's easier to take over an established portfolio, or more than one if needed, given they have established bureaucracy in place, than it would be to lump the unknowns of the pandemic on any individual. It was probably reasonable to say I can look over the day to day of several ministries, some ministers being constrained by border closures and the like, and free them to address the unknown pandemic as a team.

It also meant that the newly formed national cabinet had an equivalence across state and federal boundaries.

Even so, he should have done all this with transparency not secrecy, it left someone like Frydenberg in an untenable situation, and reeks of a secret NSW takeover of Federal politics.

I would think the biggest issues are yet to surface, wait until the states do a retrospective analysis of this.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on August 16, 2022, 08:30:42 pm
Massive stench about this, but apart from becoming Emperor, what exactly did Scotty expect to gain ?
Does he get a superannuation boost for being a minister with 6 portfolios ?
A resume filler…?
I could agree with LP that early on in Covid it may have been a insurance policy of sorts, but why the secrecy…?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on August 16, 2022, 08:35:39 pm
Massive stench about this, but apart from becoming Emperor, what exactly did Scotty expect to gain ?
Does he get a superannuation boost for being a minister with 6 portfolios ?
A resume filler…?
I could agree with LP that early on in Covid it may have been a insurance policy of sorts, but why the secrecy…?

...and why didn't he do the same with a number of other ministers? And why the secrecy? And why not tell the folks who had the portfolios that he'd put himself in there as well (as insurance). Didn't a few folks who worked with him report he was a compulsive liar? Did Dutton know? Be interesting to see what comes out in the wash.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on August 16, 2022, 08:41:16 pm
It's a bit hard to judge this, as much as I want to slam Scotty the facts are not yet known, the media will want to paint it one way, however the implementation was clearly dodgy.

For example, I could argue that early in the pandemic the needs for leadership, governance and management were not clear. In this regard it's easier to take over an established portfolio, or more than one if needed, given they have established bureaucracy in place, than it would be to lump the unknowns of the pandemic on any individual. It was probably reasonable to say I can look over the day to day of several ministries, some ministers being constrained by border closures and the like, and free them to address the unknown pandemic as a team.

It also meant that the newly formed national cabinet had an equivalence across state and federal boundaries.

Even so, he should have done all this with transparency not secrecy, it left someone like Frydenberg in an untenable situation, and reeks of a secret NSW takeover of Federal politics.

I would think the biggest issues are yet to surface, wait until the states do a retrospective analysis of this.

Yes LP, it’s easy to see how multiple ministers could have been necessary when COVID was taking off.  Dutton said as much on the wireless yesterday.  However, placing all of that power in the hands of one person, and the secrecy around Scotty’s appointments, smacks of megalomania and a complete disregard for the Westminster system and the need for transparency in government.

I expect that the folk who were outraged by the Victorian Government’s state of emergency legislation will be up in arms about Scotty’s attempt at presidential rule.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 16, 2022, 08:54:38 pm
He should be commended, 5 additional ministries and not a cent of extra pay.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on August 16, 2022, 08:59:42 pm
He should be commended, 5 additional ministries and not a cent of extra pay.

Has this been fact-checked ? 🤣
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 16, 2022, 09:34:38 pm
Its all very Trumpesque, they will be raiding ScoMo's house next and fingerprinting the kids....
Havent got much time for the bloke as he is as slippery as they come and his next job will probably be as a used car salesman but I hope we are not going to waste a lot of tax payers money and time trying to pin his ar$e to the front door of the lodge in an effort to score political points when there are a lot more urgent matters pending..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on August 16, 2022, 09:42:51 pm
Its all very Trumpesque, they will be raiding ScoMo's house next and fingerprinting the kids....
Havent got much time for the bloke as he is as slippery as they come and his next job will probably be as a used car salesman but I hope we are not going to waste a lot of tax payers money and time trying to pin his ar$e to the front door of the lodge in an effort to score political points when there are a lot more urgent matters pending..


Yes but…
This sort of shiite should not be swept under the carpet.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on August 16, 2022, 10:44:21 pm
Yes but…
This sort of shiite should not be swept under the carpet.

Absolutely!

It’s not a matter of political point scoring, it’s a matter of exposing an attempt to undermine our system of parliamentary democracy and ensuring that it can’t happen again.

It’s interesting to see how some conservative politicians are sticking fat with Scotty but most are outraged at his megalomania and undermining of our system of government.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on August 17, 2022, 06:22:32 am
.I expect that the folk who were outraged by the Victorian Government’s state of emergency legislation will be up in arms about Scotty’s attempt at presidential rule.

and vice versa.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on August 17, 2022, 06:33:22 am
As a middling voter I don't have a lot of issue with the PM taking on repsonsibility for extra duties.
In fact with the proper checks and balances it makes sense to have the boss with the back-up power should a minister be indisposed.

When Gough Whitlam came to power he and Lance Barnard divided up all the portfolios between them (Whitlam 13, Barnard 14) and they made quite a few decisions in the weeks before the new full ministry was sworn in.
Whitlam and Labor had a clear agenda and as leader of the party I doubt there was much issue amongst his colleagues with the process.
There was a bit of public outrage at the time, but they hit the ground running.

The big problem for Morrison is in terms of transparency and secrecy.
Let folks know...no problem.
Do it without that transparency...political career over.
It's time to go.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on August 17, 2022, 04:45:32 pm
We all knew Scomo was a little bit shady playing both sides to win/fall into the top job in the first place but this is next level. He deceived his whole party including his closest allies. He's finished.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 17, 2022, 05:01:00 pm
We all knew Scomo was a little bit shady playing both sides to win/fall into the top job in the first place but this is next level. He deceived his whole party including his closest allies. He's finished.
Agree...he will have to resign for sure, even his own party cant defend this and many in the opposition dont want him to survive but I just hope its quick and he falls on his sword and saves the taxpayer a lot of time and money rather than some dragged out investigation.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on August 17, 2022, 05:04:41 pm
In typical Scomo fashion, being the dedicated servant of the people, he’ll resign after December so he qualifies for maximum benefits.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on August 17, 2022, 05:14:11 pm
As a middling voter I don't have a lot of issue with the PM taking on repsonsibility for extra duties.
In fact with the proper checks and balances it makes sense to have the boss with the back-up power should a minister be indisposed.

When Gough Whitlam came to power he and Lance Barnard divided up all the portfolios between them (Whitlam 13, Barnard 14) and they made quite a few decisions in the weeks before the new full ministry was sworn in.
Whitlam and Labor had a clear agenda and as leader of the party I doubt there was much issue amongst his colleagues with the process.
There was a bit of public outrage at the time, but they hit the ground running.

The big problem for Morrison is in terms of transparency and secrecy.
Let folks know...no problem.
Do it without that transparency...political career over.
It's time to go.

Yes Lods, there's nothing wrong with Ministers or Prime Ministers having more than one portfolio.  It's the secrecy around Morrison's multiple appointments that's the problem.  Of course, none of this is codified and Morrison has broken conventions rather than laws or the Constitution.  In fact, our Constitution doesn't provide for a Prime Minister and the role is based on conventions established by the UK Parliament aka the Westminster system.

Similarly, deceiving his Cabinet colleagues and heads of departments is not unlawful but is at odds with the Westminster system.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on August 17, 2022, 05:27:00 pm
In typical Scomo fashion, being the dedicated servant of the people, he’ll resign after December so he qualifies for maximum benefits.

As long as he is there it reflects on the opposition.
They'll want him gone so this isn't a distraction and a point of constant attack by Albo and his minions.

It will be interesting to see how much of a 'servant of the party' Morrison is.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 17, 2022, 05:44:33 pm
In typical Scomo fashion, being the dedicated servant of the people, he’ll resign after December so he qualifies for maximum benefits.
In typical Poli fashion you mean, they are all tarred with the same brush in that regard. Thats all they are there for.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on August 17, 2022, 05:54:33 pm
Reflecting on it I think we're probably being a bit hard on Morrison.

He was constantly telling us that this task and that task was "Not my job!"

So anything he didn't mention as 'not his job' is fair game ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on August 18, 2022, 10:20:18 pm
Scomo gave an interview that explains all of the crazy things he said at the presser:
https://youtu.be/vn_PSJsl0LQ (https://youtu.be/vn_PSJsl0LQ)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on August 20, 2022, 05:34:36 pm
You genuinely have to worry when a former CIA and NSA director tweets to agree with this sentiment :

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on August 20, 2022, 06:19:23 pm
Remember when an American says the world they mean the USA.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 25, 2022, 02:36:49 pm
While I feel for the victims, and think the behaviour of cosmetic cowboys is horrendous, I don't see why we should all (the general public) be footing the bill for a Royal Commission into what is basically a failed vanity pursuit by people with otherwise high disposable incomes!

btw., Have you ever seen what they put those patients through, the cowboys scrape out fat like a groundsmen coring a golf coarse! :o

To me it's like any other high risk pursuit, skydiving, swimming with Great Whites, rock climbing, you do it voluntarily and have to live with the consequences.

As abhorrent as it may be, it is not something done to the victim involuntarily or without consent.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on August 30, 2022, 03:57:16 pm
"The Donald" stripped that much cash out of the NASA science budget to fund his "Space Force", NASA can't even light a cracker these days! :o

If not for the dementia, Putin would be rolling on the floor laughing, instead of asking "Why I laugh?"
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on August 30, 2022, 05:26:52 pm
LP - Once upon a time Royal Commissions were a huge deal - only done by absolute necessity.  There were a lot more inquiries and less formal investigations, because there was an apolitical public service and possibly better oversight (red-tape!).

Now that a lot of the public service is contracted and senior bureaucrats a politically appointed, the other options aren't as effective.  That and it appears de-regulation and privitisation may not work as well as is often sprouted.

The cosmetic surgery industry does need to be cleaned up judging by the little I've seen - it is too big to go smaller than a royal commission - how to regulate, who would be responsible, minimal training requirements/qualifications etc.

In the meantime, the floods in Pakistan and civil war in Myanmar continue on and people are desperate!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: townsendcalling on August 31, 2022, 02:30:51 pm
"A who’s who of billionaires, business identities and socialites are among the heavy hitting crew joining trucking magnate Lindsay Fox for his 85th birthday celebrations.

The 400-odd guest list on the 12-day cruise from New York to Montreal this week is estimated to be costing up to $5m.

Those on board will include billionaires Andrew “Twiggy” Forrest, Solomon Lew and John Gandel, along with footy club presidents Andrew Bassat and Luke Sayers, infrastructure leader Rod Eddington, Melbourne Lord Mayor Sally Capp, Linfox board members Bill Kelty and Simon Crean, and presenter Eddie McGuire who will host some of the festivities, according to The Financial Review."

Our Prez mixing with the A listers!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on August 31, 2022, 03:09:42 pm
Wonder if Dan is going?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 31, 2022, 04:09:45 pm
Wonder if Dan is going?
Be Dan, Kelty and Crean in their own little cabin wouldnt it?....
Twiggy Forrest has just picked up 2.4 billion dollars worth of Dividends from Fortescue...grossed up with 100% Franking thats getting close to 3.4 billion in total, maybe he is buying the drinks.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on August 31, 2022, 04:14:00 pm
Wonder if Dan is going?
Depends which rumour you believe: He is going to work for him then yes, or if you believe the rumours about Dan's fall, most definitely not.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on August 31, 2022, 05:28:45 pm
Wonder if Dan is going?

My invite hasn't arrived yet, wtf??😕
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on August 31, 2022, 06:51:41 pm
"A who’s who of billionaires, business identities and socialites are among the heavy hitting crew joining trucking magnate Lindsay Fox for his 85th birthday celebrations.

The 400-odd guest list on the 12-day cruise from New York to Montreal this week is estimated to be costing up to $5m.

Those on board will include billionaires Andrew “Twiggy” Forrest, Solomon Lew and John Gandel, along with footy club presidents Andrew Bassat and Luke Sayers, infrastructure leader Rod Eddington, Melbourne Lord Mayor Sally Capp, Linfox board members Bill Kelty and Simon Crean, and presenter Eddie McGuire who will host some of the festivities, according to The Financial Review."

Our Prez mixing with the A listers!

Silly time to be doing something like this.  China and Russia may want to make a statement and this would be one way to make an awfully big one!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on September 04, 2022, 10:18:14 am
Rather than derail the discussion in the Williams thread comparing her to Court I'll post this in here.
It's on a similar theme to how off court/field  behaviour reflects on a persons achivement.

I had a discussion with my son-in-law a few weeks back.

I have a vinyl collection of about 400 records.
It's mostly stuff from the 50s and 60s but also features quite a few records from the decades either side of that period.
Amongst the records are some by artists like Michael Jackson, Rolf Harris and Al Jolson (probably the most unracist "racist" you could find ...but his craft bears a stigma)
No doubt each of the above characters have diminished in the public eye since their popular days.

As we were going through the records my SIL asked "Can we separate the behaviour and attitude from the achievements and still acknowledge those achievements?"
I thought for a minute and replied "I think we have to."

I'm not sure (pretty sure) that's an opinion not shared by everyone.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on September 04, 2022, 10:30:11 am
You can and should separate a person's achievements from their beliefs, values etc.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on September 04, 2022, 11:25:04 am
You can and should separate a person's achievements from their beliefs, values etc.

Like Novak Djokovic?

The hypocrisy is telling in many circumstances.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 04, 2022, 11:31:10 am
Like Novak Djokovic?

The hypocrisy is telling in many circumstances.
I don't see any hypocrisy at all, the situation Joker finds himself in has no effect on his tennis standing and is largely unrelated, he uses his tennis in a political perspective. The constraints on his movement and conduct are unrelated to tennis.

In fact I'd say the hypocrisy sits, if it exists at all, in the attitudes of those who think he should be exempt from common laws and rules just because he is a sporting celebrity!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on September 04, 2022, 07:29:41 pm
I don't see any hypocrisy at all, the situation Joker finds himself in has no effect on his tennis standing and is largely unrelated, he uses his tennis in a political perspective. The constraints on his movement and conduct are unrelated to tennis.

In fact I'd say the hypocrisy sits, if it exists at all, in the attitudes of those who think he should be exempt from common laws and rules just because he is a sporting celebrity!
I was actually thinking of the public opinion of him pre covid.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on October 12, 2022, 10:47:10 am
As the world returns to travel it seems expectations might need to be adjusted.

I've a few friends now returning form initial trips having been on the travel shelf for sometime. While they reports some terrific deals with some venues are making a genuine effort to attract travellers, it seems that much like the effects of the great resignation on commercial enterprise, travel accommodation has been wrecked by the presence of airBnB, and it's leaving the travel accommodation experience falling well short of expectation.

One friend has begun using the term airBnB as an acronym for, air-Beds-n-Bugs.

Make your bookings wisely! ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on October 12, 2022, 12:27:33 pm
As the world returns to travel it seems expectations might need to be adjusted.

I've a few friends now returning form initial trips having been on the travel shelf for sometime. While they reports some terrific deals with some venues are making a genuine effort to attract travellers, it seems that much like the effects of the great resignation on commercial enterprise, travel accommodation has been wrecked by the presence of airBnB, and it's leaving the travel accommodation experience falling well short of expectation.

One friend has begun using the term airBnB as an acronym for, air-Beds-n-Bugs.

Make your bookings wisely! ;)

Must say that in our travels around Oz and NZ Mrs Baggers and I can only praise the AirBnbs we've stayed in. Before moving into our new home in Gippsland last year we stayed in an AirBnb whilst cleaning and urgent repairs we done, and it was sensational. Cleaning came in every week to change all bedding and towels and give the place a once over. We only AirBnb where the place has a gold star (or whatever the high rating thing is).
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on October 12, 2022, 03:09:55 pm
In Singapore there is a minimum stay at an AirBnB of either 6 or 9 nights (I've forgotten which).  Smart.

It would be interesting to know how much housing is lost to potential long term renters due to short stay accom.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on October 12, 2022, 03:10:39 pm
Ive had good and ive had bad. 

Mostly good.  You do get what you pay for and generally last minute is no good.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on October 25, 2022, 10:16:06 am
This is my public service announcement for the day.

See the image below, a young services officer wading through flood waters, decked out is baggy waterproof clothing. Doing the right thing by somebody, don't do it!

Too many people just do not realise how dangerous this innocent act is!
(https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/9fcf733bf16b280a4cdd2309f7cc512b?width=320)
Just a moderate piece of debris can knock this person over, that baggy waterproof clothing will inflate with water like a balloon leaving you at the mercy of the moving water and potentially making it impossible to recover to get your head above water.

If you really must wade through a torrent, then strip off to tight fitting permeable layers of clothing, stuff that will drain as you try to stand up, and won't act like a underwater sail! Sure you'll be cold, sure it can be embarrassing, but you're many times less likely to end up dead as well!

Lots of fly fishos and water skiers can warn you about the foibles of wearing loose fitting watertight garments in moving water.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on November 09, 2022, 02:35:29 pm
I read today that the company that purchased the Coon cheese brand and relabelled it due to social media pressure, are now closing factories and scaling back operations destroying dozens or hundreds of jobs at factories formerly known by the surname of it's founder, Coon is "cancelled"! Americanised and obliterated, jobs in Australia gone because piss-weak political mileage is made on a slang term from the Americias!

Sure we get it, the extreme left is good all other perspectives are bad! ::)

Just remember when discussing things with your US social media or Insta-twaddle overlords, it is "Exploring U-Ran-Us", not "Exploring Ur-Anus!"
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 09, 2022, 03:03:00 pm
I read today that the company that purchased the Coon cheese brand and relabelled it due to social media pressure, are now closing factories and scaling back operations destroying dozens or hundreds of jobs at factories formerly known by the surname of it's founder, Coon is "cancelled"! Americanised and obliterated, jobs in Australia gone because piss-weak political mileage is made on a slang term from the Americias!

Sure we get it, the extreme left is good all other perspectives are bad! ::)

Just remember when discussing things with your US social media or Insta-twaddle overlords, it is "Exploring U-Ran-Us", not "Exploring Ur-Anus!"
Been a bit of a silly affair the whole thing really, my wife has a friend whose surname is Coon and she has copped a fair bit of abuse online and even in some business areas since this whole Coon cheese fiasco started and was even contemplating using her maiden name in some circumstances so her kids didnt get bullied.
If its going to be banned and condemned  in commercial life as a word then it probably needs to be banned in public life because it is a legitimate surname and those folk with it should be allowed to change it at no expense to themselves on birth records, legal documents etc if its causing grief to them...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on November 09, 2022, 03:43:53 pm
Been a bit of a silly affair the whole thing really, my wife has a friend whose surname is Coon and she has copped a fair bit of abuse online and even in some business areas since this whole Coon cheese fiasco started and was even contemplating using her maiden name in some circumstances so her kids didnt get bullied.
If its going to be banned and condemned  in commercial life as a word then it probably needs to be banned in public life because it is a legitimate surname and those folk with it should be allowed to change it at no expense to themselves on birth records, legal documents etc if its causing grief to them...
It's so arbitrary, even in the US the name Coon is still used on some brands in various states because it's accepted as an abbreviation referring to Raccoon, which makes the loss of jobs here even worse, stupidly worse.

The whole issue blew up here because a small group used the name controversy on social media to garner support on US based human rights groups,  claiming they were oppressed and abused here in Australia and using the Coon brand name as proof of vilification, they did this only after the Canadians had bought the business not before. Now people are losing their jobs!

The irony is many of the people losing jobs are in regional areas, a large portion of the workforce identify as indigenous!

We keep hearing arguments for not changing something to make things more inclusive, it's just a name, it's just a piece of paper, it's just an old / obsolete law, but it always has real world consequences, and often the "just a crowd" pretty much feck off into the mist after all the damage is done!

I bet in relation to this Coon / Cheers issue, somewhere sometime today or in coming weeks, there will be somebody claiming the lost jobs and redundancies are proof of institutionalised racism, because indigenous people are adversely affected. It may have even already happened.

It's always somebody else's fault!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 28, 2022, 04:21:25 pm
Just to "balance" up the racism debate, I read today the disgustingly abhorrent stuff online directed at the young Jewish boy Sheezel who will be drafted tonight. WTF is wrong with these parasites? Find these people and put a bullet between their eyes, they are no good to anyone and beyond rehabilitation if that's the way they think and behave. The kid hasnt started his career and he has to put up with this crap. The world is farked.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on November 28, 2022, 05:04:21 pm
Just to "balance" up the racism debate, I read today the disgustingly abhorrent stuff online directed at the young Jewish boy Sheezel who will be drafted tonight. WTF is wrong with these parasites? Find these people and put a bullet between their eyes, they are no good to anyone and beyond rehabilitation if that's the way they think and behave. The kid hasnt started his career and he has to put up with this crap. The world is farked.

Also angered by this astonishing development.

I'm far from across social media and the associated technology. Sheesh, I don't even use my phone for anything except tests, photos and calls and have only ever downloaded 2 apps... CFC and a Covid MyGov thing, but surely there must be something that can be done with these social media platforms to prevent this despicable hatred seeing the light of day?

For those far more IT savvy than moi, are there things that can be done to prevent, and/or bring to account the perpetrators of this bullshizen?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on November 28, 2022, 05:27:28 pm
I read today that the company that purchased the Coon cheese brand and relabelled it due to social media pressure, are now closing factories and scaling back operations destroying dozens or hundreds of jobs at factories formerly known by the surname of it's founder, Coon is "cancelled"! Americanised and obliterated, jobs in Australia gone because piss-weak political mileage is made on a slang term from the Americias!

Sure we get it, the extreme left is good all other perspectives are bad! ::)

Just remember when discussing things with your US social media or Insta-twaddle overlords, it is "Exploring U-Ran-Us", not "Exploring Ur-Anus!"

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story:

First of all, "coon" was a common derogatory term commonly applied to Indigenous Australians and other people of colour in Australia from the late 19th century until the mid-20th century.  It made a comeback in the late 20th century and I have witnessed its use to demean and belittle Indigenous friends and colleagues ... and there are no raccoons in Australia.

Edward Coon was not the founder of the company.  He patented a cheese processing technique in 1926 but was bought out by Kraft in 1928.  Kraft first marketed Red Coon cheese in 1931 and registered the COON trademark in 1949.  Red Coon cheese went out of production around 1959, about the time a new product, Coon "Tasty" cheese began production.  There have never been Coon cheese factories since Kraft bought out Edward Coon's business.

On 9 November 2022, Saputo Australia announced that the company will close its Maffra factory and lay off up to 75 workers following issues with milk supply and a A$54.4 million annual loss. The company generated a A$30.6 million net profit in the previous year.  In other words, Saputo made a very healthy profit after announcing that it was dropping Coon and introducing Cheers (not that there's a causal link).  COVID, supply chain issues and perennial problems with the dairy industry combined to knock the stuffing out of Saputo's business and that has nothing to do with the change from Coon to Cheers.

I don't agree with Stephen Hagan's claims about the brand name always having a racist meaning (he's the cove who wanted to ban Lily of Laguna) but Saputo's CEO nailed it with "Treating people with respect and without discrimination is one of our basic principles" when he announced the change ... and they would have done their marketing homework.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on November 28, 2022, 05:36:06 pm
Just to "balance" up the racism debate, I read today the disgustingly abhorrent stuff online directed at the young Jewish boy Sheezel who will be drafted tonight. WTF is wrong with these parasites? Find these people and put a bullet between their eyes, they are no good to anyone and beyond rehabilitation if that's the way they think and behave. The kid hasnt started his career and he has to put up with this crap. The world is farked.

But we don't have any far right extremists in Australia  ???

Absolutely abhorrent behaviour and you wonder why young Sheezel is the first Jewish draftee (Goldstein's mother isn't Jewish).  The perpetrators should be exposed, stripped of any club memberships, banned from attending matches, placed on a watch list and prosecuted for hate speech (I can't quite bring myself to go to the "bullet between their eyes" step but it's bloody tempting. 

Best wishes to young Harry.  I hope he gets to a club where he'll thrive and be supported against anything the nazi filth may throw at him.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 28, 2022, 06:26:02 pm
But we don't have any far right extremists in Australia  ???

Absolutely abhorrent behaviour and you wonder why young Sheezel is the first Jewish draftee (Goldstein's mother isn't Jewish).  The perpetrators should be exposed, stripped of any club memberships, banned from attending matches, placed on a watch list and prosecuted for hate speech (I can't quite bring myself to go to the "bullet between their eyes" step but it's bloody tempting. 

Best wishes to young Harry.  I hope he gets to a club where he'll thrive and be supported against anything the nazi filth may throw at him.
They're not far right extremists in my book, they are just low life, brain dead, rotten to the core, kents.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on November 28, 2022, 07:10:05 pm
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story:

First of all, "coon" was a common derogatory term commonly applied to Indigenous Australians and other people of colour in Australia from the late 19th century until the mid-20th century.  It made a comeback in the late 20th century and I have witnessed its use to demean and belittle Indigenous friends and colleagues ... and there are no raccoons in Australia.
I remember seeing an ad on TV back in the 70s or so which featured a hoedown with a bunch of Good Ol’ Southern rednecks (all white, of course) singing “Just say Coon …” Their marketing department couldn’t have made a more dubious ad if they’d tried.

As you say, trying the raccoon defence is a bit laughable. But I’m sure Nazis everywhere would just love it if they could exploit the strategy of pointing to the innocent secondary meaning to avoid criticism. After all, the Swastika has been used as a religious symbol in India and elsewhere and I can just imagine Nazis saying you can’t assume they use it to honour dear old Adolf rather than for religious reasons.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on November 29, 2022, 01:06:39 pm
It seems either side of this debate wants to spin things accordingly, but the fundamental outcome of the forced rebranding is the same. And of course the people responsible for the decision to rebrand aren't going to point the blame at themselves. Those that protested and basically forced the name change aren't going to take responsibility for the job losses.

As for the other bullcrap excuses, like the $54M annual loss, I'll treat that spin with the disdain it deserves. Some basic knowledge of the industry would highlight / expose the truth that a rebranding of a major retail item brings a one off annual write-down like this. Market analysis, packaging, websites, advertising, POS, registered trademarks, everything from curtain-siders and billboards down to stationery items like business cards, the cost is enormous but it's mostly a one off. They knew all that long long before they pulled the trigger.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on November 29, 2022, 01:43:22 pm
Perhaps they could do a deal with Sarah Abo for naming rights in a rebranding. Right wing customers would love it!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on November 29, 2022, 02:32:42 pm
I know the rage at Dan isnt going to be a long term strategy, but if I were a wagering person, I suspect the idea of being anti Dan is about playing a longer game and trying to winover a certain subset of a generation now, with a view to win future elections.

I think what ultimately hurt the liberal party was the ex leader (I cant remember his name, but we nick named him Ned Flanders) who was extremely belligerent throughout the pandemic irrespective of why the government did what it was doing.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on November 29, 2022, 02:57:48 pm
What's the spin behind the National Party rejecting The Voice?

I heard for the announcement the Nats had an Indigenous Party member on hand. Are they claiming The Voice as proposed is bogus, bits and pieces of commentary I have read suggest it was spun that The Voice proposal doesn't go far enough in giving Indigenous Australian's an official role to play in the political forum.

Yet politically the actions seem to be the exact opposite of the declared intent.

Millennials will accept this as a right of opinion in a post truth era, no matter how obviously bogus the spin is.

Politically, I neither for or against, in fact I'm fairly disinterested. But I do expect elected officials and parties are held to account, and on both sides of this debate there appears to be disingenuous behaviour. One side states it supports the cause while throwing roadblocks in the way, another side campaigning for equality effectively rejects the proposal because it's not positively biased enough for them to recommend proceeding. Somewhere, hidden in the dirty details, away from the public's prying eyes, lives motive. Why don't they just spit it out their dirty little secrets!

I don't blame people for having a bias, an opinion or a belief, just don't push it on me by stealth!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on November 29, 2022, 03:15:03 pm
Coon is a racist term and should have been changed decades ago.

Colonial beer having to change their name was ridiculous.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on November 29, 2022, 03:59:37 pm
It seems either side of this debate wants to spin things accordingly, but the fundamental outcome of the forced rebranding is the same. And of course the people responsible for the decision to rebrand aren't going to point the blame at themselves. Those that protested and basically forced the name change aren't going to take responsibility for the job losses.

As for the other bullcrap excuses, like the $54M annual loss, I'll treat that spin with the disdain it deserves. Some basic knowledge of the industry would highlight / expose the truth that a rebranding of a major retail item brings a one off annual write-down like this. Market analysis, packaging, websites, advertising, POS, registered trademarks, everything from curtain-siders and billboards down to stationery items like business cards, the cost is enormous but it's mostly a one off. They knew all that long long before they pulled the trigger.

You do realise that Coon/Cheers Cheese is one of many products that Warrnambool Cheese and Butter processes?  Their brands include Black Pearl Caviar, Valrhona and Simon Johnson Chocolate (Simon Johnson is a network of retail outlets selling local and imported products), Sungold, Cheers, Cracker Barrel, Mil Lel, Meander Valley, Devondale, Eschire, Lescure, Meredith Dairy, Great Ocean Road Dairy and many others.

Coon/Cheers represents a minuscule part of the Warrnambool Cheese and Butter/Calendar/Saputo business and revenue stream and to suggest that the rebranding of Coon to Cheers caused factories to close is ludicrous.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on November 29, 2022, 04:06:03 pm
And to blame those who found the old name off putting rather than the reactionaries LP seems to think boycotted the product is interesting as well.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on November 29, 2022, 06:19:51 pm
Coon is a racist term and should have been changed decades ago.

Colonial beer having to change their name was ridiculous.

Perhaps if it was called Terra Nullius Ale but objecting to "colonial" is a stretch.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on November 29, 2022, 06:21:48 pm
Kraft's 2009 advertisement acknowledged the inappropriateness of the Coon brand:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg7WDeReC9Q
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on November 29, 2022, 07:21:15 pm
What's the spin behind the National Party rejecting The Voice?

I heard for the announcement the Nats had an Indigenous Party member on hand. Are they claiming The Voice as proposed is bogus, bits and pieces of commentary I have read suggest it was spun that The Voice proposal doesn't go far enough in giving Indigenous Australian's an official role to play in the political forum.

Yet politically the actions seem to be the exact opposite of the declared intent.

Millennials will accept this as a right of opinion in a post truth era, no matter how obviously bogus the spin is.

Politically, I neither for or against, in fact I'm fairly disinterested. But I do expect elected officials and parties are held to account, and on both sides of this debate there appears to be disingenuous behaviour. One side states it supports the cause while throwing roadblocks in the way, another side campaigning for equality effectively rejects the proposal because it's not positively biased enough for them to recommend proceeding. Somewhere, hidden in the dirty details, away from the public's prying eyes, lives motive. Why don't they just spit it out their dirty little secrets!

I don't blame people for having a bias, an opinion or a belief, just don't push it on me by stealth!

"If you don't understand it, don't vote for it" 
It's the slogan that will bring a referendum undone.

This one worries me because the effect of it not getting up will be a kick in the guts for indigenous Australians.

So the onus is on the proponents to fully explain how this will work and impact.
In short ....Keep it simple and understandable.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on November 29, 2022, 08:04:59 pm
It was crap tasting cheese anyway!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on November 30, 2022, 02:44:07 am
It was crap tasting cheese anyway!
Whether we like it or not it was dozens of Aussie jobs, perhaps family, neighbors or friends of some on here.
 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on November 30, 2022, 09:53:17 am
If you’re right (which is disputed) then this is yet another evil perpetrated by racist and/or reactionary right wingers! Aren’t they ashamed of putting people out of work? Just so they can stamp their feet like little toddlers who want their own way over a new product name …

If they rebranded Weet-Bix and called it Wheat Bricks, I’d still buy it. How does the change of name affect the taste or quality of the product? Pathetic really …
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on November 30, 2022, 11:20:22 am
If you’re right (which is disputed) then this is yet another evil perpetrated by racist and/or reactionary right wingers! Aren’t they ashamed of putting people out of work? Just so they can stamp their feet like little toddlers who want their own way over a new product name …

If they rebranded Weet-Bix and called it Wheat Bricks, I’d still buy it. How does the change of name affect the taste or quality of the product? Pathetic really …
I actually think the very average new name/branding and poor advertising/PR was a major contributor to their demise.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on November 30, 2022, 11:39:47 am
As pointed out by DJC, there’s no proof that there has been any demise. But let’s face it: this was not a case of a universally loved name (or product, for that matter) being harmed by a poor rebrand. The original name was unfortunate, to say the least. Market research is a well-developed expertise which is far more reliable than posters on a footy site pontificating about ups and downs in the cheese market. A bit of actual evidence would be nice to see before we conclude that doing the right thing leads to disaster.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on November 30, 2022, 04:55:54 pm
I actually think the very average new name/branding and poor advertising/PR was a major contributor to their demise.
As I see it, it my own weird way! :o

 - The activists painted the general public as racist for buying the Coon brand, the new woke US based owners folded under inferred pressure from the activists who acted like it was some universal public outrage downunder. (PS; They tried to do the same to our very own Lily of Laguna based theme song, approaching our club's International sponsors to abandon support if the theme song wasn't changed.)

 - The general public saw the company's concession to the activists as an assertion that the public was in fact racist for buying the Coon branded product, the general public didn't like the label so it took offense at the assertion and discarded the Cheers brand replacement wholesale.

 - Supermarket shelves were full of the Cheers stuff they could not sell, even heavily discounted, rising resource costs were never the issue for the brand demise, that was just the corporate excuse deflecting from the corporate stupidity.

 - The huge annual loss claimed to be the reason for the manufacturing reshuffle was nothing more than the one off cost of rebranding a major retail trademark from Coon to Cheers.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 30, 2022, 05:10:11 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/sports/afl-2022-collingwood-super-fan-joffa-corfe-pleads-guilty-child-sex-abuse-003339127.html

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on November 30, 2022, 05:15:22 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/sports/afl-2022-collingwood-super-fan-joffa-corfe-pleads-guilty-child-sex-abuse-003339127.html
Well, bugger me, he's a Piejabber! :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on November 30, 2022, 05:25:02 pm
All you need LP is some evidence to back up your theory. But as with most conspiracy theories, I’m sure you can read what you want into the tea leaves and claim the necessary proof is out there if people are just willing to see it.

I’m surprised that major brands don’t hire you instead of doing market research. They’d save heaps by listening to the Brand Whisperer.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 30, 2022, 05:30:45 pm
Well, bugger me, he's a Piejabber! :o
Just a disgraceful Grub who can swap his Collingwood Prison bar jumper for a Port Philip one...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on November 30, 2022, 05:53:47 pm
There’d be a big opening for you in the US, LP! There’s a lot of pressure to remove Confederate statues which were erected as the Deep South sought to win the peace after losing the Civil War. And they were largely successful. They managed to make the Lost Noble Cause a foundation of the Reconstruction: the idea that, as in Gone with the Wind, the blacks were happy working on plantations for loving owners who fed, clothed and housed them until the nasty Yankees and Federal Government violently crushed their States’ rights to self-determination. The Emancipation Proclamation, they argued, destroyed the economies of their States and unleashed feckless slaves who were unprepared to live and work productively in society. They may not have been able to resuscitate slave ownership, but they were successful in driving blacks into poverty and dependency.

Confederate Statues were an obvious threat to the black community, as much as lynchings were. But of course the white population in the South has been taught that the statues celebrate the heroic defence of States’ rights against an oppressive Federal Govt. They view the Civil War with pride in the same way Australians view Gallipoli.

I guess you’d argue that the campaign to demolish those statues should not succeed. I’m sure you’d be able to come up with an argument that giving in to it would reduce tourism in the area after Good Ol’ Boys took umbrage at the statues being labelled racist. You might even be able to show that poor black workers would be the ones who bore the brunt of the loss of redneck dollars. You might then say the activists who call for the removal of those statues are the real racists. You might argue that it’s far better to keep actual racists happy; they should be able to veto any effort to do the right thing.

On the other hand, I’d argue that any product or landmark that depends on keeping racists happy isn’t worth saving.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on November 30, 2022, 06:49:15 pm
All you need LP is some evidence to back up your theory. But as with most conspiracy theories, I’m sure you can read what you want into the tea leaves and claim the necessary proof is out there if people are just willing to see it.

I’m surprised that major brands don’t hire you instead of doing market research. They’d save heaps by listening to the Brand Whisperer.

Rather harsh, Wingman MAV.

Having worked in this business, and with some of the best ad agencies in the caper I do have some knowledge in this area. Market research is only one factor, then there's interpretation of the data, then there's implementation of a strategic marketing and PR plan to reach and motivate the perceived market - that means media usage, creative and image consultants, not to mention industrial psychology input.

Many a well market-researched product has flopped... P76, but that was awhile ago. More recently you can bet that the LNP did their market research before launching their (lame) ad campaign. Perhaps their market research was good, but the interpretation and implementation was woeful. I could site many examples (evidence?) of brands/products that underwent exhaustive market research, yet still failed. Re-branding successfully involves much more than blind adherence to market research. It aint linear.

If market research was the 'be all and end all' as you seem to believe, then every product re-branded using market research would be an instant success. It aint. There's a fair bit of creative, intuitive, experienced interpretation and art involved.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on November 30, 2022, 08:13:21 pm
Wonder how the Coon family are going?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on November 30, 2022, 08:42:08 pm
Rather harsh, Wingman MAV.

If market research was the 'be all and end all' as you seem to believe, then every product re-branded using market research would be an instant success. It aint. There's a fair bit of creative, intuitive, experienced interpretation and art involved.
I didn’t say market research was the be all and end all. That’s a straw man argument. I said making up theories without evidence is the sin. After evidence is obtained by, you know, talking to actual people, then you can draw inferences from the facts. If the Liberals drew the wrong inferences from their focus groups, then that’s on them. In reality, what the Liberals did is what LP is doing. Everyone hates Dan because we do and a small number of cookers do, and Rupert as well, so that means we should run a whole campaign on Get Rid of Dan. If they’d actually done the work rather than going off gut instinct, maybe they would have done a bit better.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on November 30, 2022, 08:49:54 pm
Rather harsh, Wingman MAV.

Having worked in this business, and with some of the best ad agencies in the caper I do have some knowledge in this area. Market research is only one factor, then there's interpretation of the data, then there's implementation of a strategic marketing and PR plan to reach and motivate the perceived market - that means media usage, creative and image consultants, not to mention industrial psychology input.

Many a well market-researched product has flopped... P76, but that was awhile ago. More recently you can bet that the LNP did their market research before launching their (lame) ad campaign. Perhaps their market research was good, but the interpretation and implementation was woeful. I could site many examples (evidence?) of brands/products that underwent exhaustive market research, yet still failed. Re-branding successfully involves much more than blind adherence to market research. It aint linear.

If market research was the 'be all and end all' as you seem to believe, then every product re-branded using market research would be an instant success. It aint. There's a fair bit of creative, intuitive, experienced interpretation and art involved.

The thing is Shane, Coon/Cheers cheese is a minuscule component of a very large range of products manufactured, imported and sold by the various arms of Calendar Cheese/Warrnambool Cheese and Butter Company/Saputo.  I listed some of their brand names in a previous post and they cover everything from caviar to chocolate.  As I said before, it is ludicrous to suggest that rebranding one of their products caused such a drop off in sales across the board that they had to close plants in Victoria. 

Saputo closed their cheese slice factory in Cobram earlier this year.  Coon/Cheers is one of several cheese slice brands produced by Saputo.  In September, CEO Lino Saputo explained;

“Two platforms that have most upside for us are the US and the second one is Australia.

Australia is very different to the US — it’s not a commodity issue, it’s more a lack of milk production issue in the country.

Milk production has been declining by maybe four or five per cent per year which means less milk for us to process, which means we need less plant in our system to be able to run our plant more effectively, more efficiently.

By the end of our strategic plan (final year 2025,) we will have fewer plants in the US network and fewer plants in the Australian network."

The only "evidence" that the change from Coon to Cheers had an impact on Saputo's profitability are some throw away references to the name change in the Murdoch media's reporting of the closure of Saputo's Maffra plant.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on November 30, 2022, 09:15:06 pm
Wonder how the Coon family are going?
Probably the same as the Dicks, the Kochs, the Hoares, the Rapers and other families that are unlucky enough to have surnames that also have a less-than-pleasant slang or dictionary meaning. They could do what Koch’s around the world do: pronounce their name differently (Port’s President says “Cosh” while the Koch brothers in the US say “Coke”). Dr D’Arth battled on bravely. They could change their surname or marry out of it. The Saxe-Coburgs became the Windsors and the Battenburgs became the Mountbattens, both because of anti-German sentiment. Scott Camm of Block fame’s surname lost the Italian ending.

But most people with unfortunate surnames either take on a stage name or avoid naming their businesses or products after them. But in the case of the surname Coon, there’s a simple work around. Include the first name and straight away you get rid of the racial overtone. If they’d called it Henry Coon’s or Mervyn Coon’s, whatever he was, the problem disappears. That would assume that this guy was a true patriarch of the business, though, like Levi Strauss. Which just wasn’t the case here. Or if the other supposed root of the name is valid, maybe they could have named it “Racoons”. I can’t see why naming it after a disease-carrying, dumpster-diving, aggressive North American animal wouldn’t go gangbusters.

Taking the LP approach, I’m sure the Coon families living in Australia are overjoyed to be rid of a product that highlighted the negative association their name carries. Mind you, I have no evidence to support this conclusion but evidence is so last century.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on November 30, 2022, 09:29:00 pm
I think Eric Coon was the guy who invented the process for making the eponymous cheese.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 30, 2022, 09:51:29 pm
Wonder how the Coon family are going?
Think the name is Scottish but may have German origins ie Kunz(need to be careful how you say that too), the process of ripening cheese invented by Edward William Coon  was called " cooning" which is also unfortunate terminology if applied in Australia.
As I have said before my wife has a friend with the surname Coon and at the height of this fiasco it wasnt an enjoyable name to have from then on and they considered changing it.
Id imagine getting a personalized number plate for your car with the family name  " Coon" wouldnt be on given  racial content is one of the criteria Vicroads and the other authorities use to vet applications.
I know they had issues with an insurance application because the company software had a business block on the name.
I can see both sides of the story with Coon being a legitimate surname but I also grew up with Coon being used as a derogatory racial slur for coloured folk and seeing that on a supermarket shelf keeping alive that term isnt what you want either.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on November 30, 2022, 10:00:55 pm
It seems his first name was Edward. And just how relevant he was to Coon cheese sold in Australia is very much in dispute. His process didn’t involve pasturisation. It involved live bacteria. Pasteurisation was required for all cheese sold in Australia until 1998. It seems that the Coon process couldn’t have contributed to Coon cheese, unless there was some dispensation of which I’m unaware.

The research from Steven Hagen suggests Kraft didn’t justify the name by saying it was named after the “creator” until 1988 when criticisms were intensifying. In any event, they should have acted to water down the name by adding context rather than leaving it as was. Indeed, it looks like it had been Red Coon or Kraft Red Coon previously.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on November 30, 2022, 10:10:23 pm
Apologies to Mr Coon for getting his first name wrong, my memory is not what it was, should have double checked.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 01, 2022, 10:36:41 am
I didn’t say market research was the be all and end all. That’s a straw man argument. I said making up theories without evidence is the sin. After evidence is obtained by, you know, talking to actual people, then you can draw inferences from the facts. If the Liberals drew the wrong inferences from their focus groups, then that’s on them. In reality, what the Liberals did is what LP is doing. Everyone hates Dan because we do and a small number of cookers do, and Rupert as well, so that means we should run a whole campaign on Get Rid of Dan. If they’d actually done the work rather than going off gut instinct, maybe they would have done a bit better.

I understand that you may find my hypothesis (straw man argument) irrelevant. I get it. But you did seem to base much of your response on the validity of market research over gut... market research being a reliable expertise (and right) but gut (intuition) open to ridicule and to be demeaned/invalidated. I find that a limiting characterization of intuition. And somewhat snide comments toward another's thoughts (Spotted One) that are not evidence based, as off putting.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 01, 2022, 10:51:29 am
The thing is Shane, Coon/Cheers cheese is a minuscule component of a very large range of products manufactured, imported and sold by the various arms of Calendar Cheese/Warrnambool Cheese and Butter Company/Saputo.  I listed some of their brand names in a previous post and they cover everything from caviar to chocolate.  As I said before, it is ludicrous to suggest that rebranding one of their products caused such a drop off in sales across the board that they had to close plants in Victoria. 

The only "evidence" that the change from Coon to Cheers had an impact on Saputo's profitability are some throw away references to the name change in the Murdoch media's reporting of the closure of Saputo's Maffra plant.

Completely agree, David. When I saw their rebranding efforts my first gut response (sorry Wingman MAV  ;) ) was that it was half-@rsed and the reasons were perhaps a lack of interest, or lack of funds or a company overall problem. Or maybe a combination of these and more. Personally, once they realized the offensiveness of the Coon Cheese name, I saw it as an opportunity to rebrand in a strong manner that may have actually boosted their sales... ambitious, perhaps, but when you're in the news and getting lots of free publicity that does present the opportunity to turn a problem into a gem of an opportunity. I had a similar situation when rebranding a radio station that had a very ordinary reputation, and the rebranding was a success because we went the whole hog.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on December 01, 2022, 11:04:41 am
What evidence do you say LP was using, Baggers? Intuition or gut instinct is great if it is based on evidence. But intuition or gut instinct which isn’t based on evidence is just prejudice or bias.

To me intuition is the opposite of evidence-free assumptions. It is very useful when the decision-maker is flooded with observations or information, perhaps some of it contradictory, and trying to analyse each piece of information and weigh it formally will lead to decision paralysis. The decision-maker synthesises all of the information in a rational way although he or she might not be able to explain how to an observer. For example, someone might feel that they’ve entered a dangerous environment because they have observed certain things that they might not register on a conscious level or be able to articulate. That’s the classic, “I have a bad feeling about this” moment.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2022, 11:15:58 am
What evidence do you say LP was using, Baggers? Intuition or gut instinct is great if it is based on evidence. But intuition or gut instinct which isn’t based on evidence is just prejudice or bias.
Not specifically related to this scenario, but a philosophical question has reared its head here.

What if an intuition or gut instinct is in line with evidence. Is it still prejudice and/or bias?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 01, 2022, 11:25:14 am
Not specifically related to this scenario, but a philosophical question has reared its head here.

What if an intuition or gut instinct is in line with evidence. Is it still prejudice and/or bias?


I like to think of myself as a philosopher, and generally speaking, your gut instinct is usually formed based on some sort of evidence formed by observation of real world practises.

Usually, your gut, will lead you to an observable likelihood.  This may not always be true, but thats where you form a hypothesis then test it.  If it stands up to rudimentary tests, then it effectively has already a basis in fact, not just a wild assertion.

You could expand that to any mode of thinking really and then it becomes a testable hypothesis.  Your gut instincts are in my experience formed from prior experience in similar situations.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2022, 11:34:12 am
I like to think of myself as a philosopher, and generally speaking, your gut instinct is usually formed based on some sort of evidence formed by observation of real world practises.

Usually, your gut, will lead you to an observable likelihood.  This may not always be true, but thats where you form a hypothesis then test it.  If it stands up to rudimentary tests, then it effectively has already a basis in fact, not just a wild assertion.

You could expand that to any mode of thinking really and then it becomes a testable hypothesis.  Your gut instincts are in my experience formed from prior experience in similar situations.

I agree gut comes from past experiences, largely, but that not exactly the question i was posing.

The negative connotations that come with the words prejudice and bias infer being incorrect.

Prejeduce: preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.
Your gut can count as past experience to a certain degree, but if your gut is correct, are you still prejudice?

It's a similar line of thinking to "If a stereotype is true, is it really a stereotype?"

In both circumstances you could perhaps put it down to a figurative vs literal use of the same words and/or phrases?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on December 01, 2022, 11:43:02 am
You beat me to it, Thryleon, and much more concisely than my edit ;D

A prejudice or bias may lead to the correct conclusion on the odd occasion but then again a broken clock is right 2 times a day. Maybe someone who believes all black people will rob you on the streets may benefit by avoiding a particular black person who intended to do so but that doesn’t mean the prejudice is proved even if it’s in line with the observations of suspicious behaviour in that one instance.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2022, 11:55:12 am
You beat me to it, Thryleon, and much more concisely than my edit ;D

A prejudice or bias may lead to the correct conclusion on the odd occasion but then again a broken clock is right 2 times a day. Maybe someone who believes all black people will rob you on the streets may benefit by avoiding a particular black person who intended to do so, but that doesn’t mean his prejudice is vindicated.



Sure, but that also doesn't mean that gut instinct is always wrong either.....or more likely to be wrong.
Not suggesting its 100% right, but to tar it all with the same prejudice brush is not right either.

Policework (at least historically) relied on gut instincts to point people in the right direction when reading people and/or solving cases. They used that well trained gut to sniff out a direction to help them gather evidence to prove their gut correct.
You tell a cop that he is prejudice in the same manner you did with LP and see how that works out for ya.  :o

There should be a word (i'm sure the germans have one) for a well-trained gut that is largely correct. Again, this is not specific to LP and his assertions about Coon etc, just in general terms.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on December 01, 2022, 12:03:29 pm
If the cops follow the Sherlock Holmes tradition, then their instincts are worthy of respect. If they follow the racial profiling practices that seem to be all the rage in the USA, then that’s prejudice rather than intuition. And no, I wouldn’t want to point that out to a cop in the USA because apparently they have the right to dish out a bit of “attitude adjustment” if they feel disrespected. But I guess I would be okay anyway as I’m white. Perhaps I wouldn’t get the full 8 minutes of neck compression.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 01, 2022, 12:06:25 pm
Sure, but that also doesn't mean that gut instinct is always wrong either.....or more likely to be wrong.
Not suggesting its 100% right, but to tar it all with the same prejudice brush is not right either.

Policework (at least historically) relied on gut instincts to point people in the right direction when reading people and/or solving cases. They used that well trained gut to sniff out a direction to help them gather evidence to prove their gut correct.
You tell a cop that he is prejudice in the same manner you did with LP and see how that works out for ya.  :o

There should be a word (i'm sure the germans have one) for a well-trained gut that is largely correct. Again, this is not specific to LP and his assertions about Coon etc, just in general terms.
Its called intuition I believe.

Not prejudice or bias.  Prejudice or bias declares an outcome and then will exclude facts until it arrives at the desired outcome.  Its actually a different phenomenon, and my point was made to support yours not go against it.  I think Mav interpreted it the way he wanted to in support of his own point, which there is nothing wrong with that, but its an example of what Im talking about.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 01, 2022, 12:17:17 pm
People tend to assume a political / social position then proceed with a hypothesis to support the view they have taken without regard to contradictory evidence. Sometimes the stance is a case of whatever they encountered first, sometimes it's an obligatory position to support an ideology or financial strategy.

For example, looking at the recent history of baby formula / milk powder production highlights some glaring contradictions in the claims used to justify the job losses over the cheese. Not only have we bumped up milk powder and baby formula production, we offered to cover the US shortfall, a shortfall caused by corporate decisions not by resource availability. And we still export to China and SE Asia as well!

In fact with very very little effort you could easily go as far to assert this cheese fiasco is the latest corporate rinse and repeat of the very same actions that lead to falling supply of baby formula accompanied by massively increased profit margins. (Less production / lower capital costs / lower direct costs / static demand / higher prices / bigger profits / bigger corporate psychopath bonus. ) The application of lessons learned by/from the oil / fuel industry, now being applied to just about any basic commodity item by people who have no long term outlook beyond their gross annual salary for the coming financial year.

So ask yourself, are the job losses an effect of falling primary production, or are the job losses an effect of falling milk prices to primary producers? Because the root cause is significantly different, one is fundamentally a force of nature, while the other is triggered by the compounding of a deliberate corporate decision to maximise profit.

I can list any number of similar scenarios from the Packaging, Food or Renewable Energy industries. Packaging is particularly relevant given recent announcements from Mondelez, Nestle and other large corporates.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 01, 2022, 12:26:38 pm
What evidence do you say LP was using, Baggers? Intuition or gut instinct is great if it is based on evidence. But intuition or gut instinct which isn’t based on evidence is just prejudice or bias.

I didn't feel the need to categorize ...it was an opinion, which he's entitled to, as you are to disagree based on your criterion, just no demeaning is needed. When we engage in put-downs we dilute our argument.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 01, 2022, 12:32:48 pm
If the cops follow the Sherlock Holmes tradition, then their instincts are worthy of respect. If they follow the racial profiling practices that seem to be all the rage in the USA, then that’s prejudice rather than intuition.

Yes. That racial profiling you mention has nothing to do with intuition... just pure, unadulterated prejudice.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 01, 2022, 12:37:03 pm
Perhaps an interesting question might be where does prejudice come from? What is at the core (psychologically speaking) of prejudice?

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on December 01, 2022, 12:44:00 pm
Perhaps an interesting question might be where does prejudice come from? What is at the core (psychologically speaking) of prejudice?

Difference!

Many years ago something like racism was based on the feeling of superiority of one group over another.
Nowadays it's more about a 'difference' and a lack of understanding and appreciation of another group.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2022, 12:50:11 pm
Its called intuition I believe.

Not prejudice or bias.  Prejudice or bias declares an outcome and then will exclude facts until it arrives at the desired outcome.  Its actually a different phenomenon, and my point was made to support yours not go against it.  I think Mav interpreted it the way he wanted to in support of his own point, which there is nothing wrong with that, but its an example of what Im talking about.

I took your comments the way you intended them. Just clarifying the initial question. Not sure how Mav was reading it, but yes, backs up our argument that he did take it differently.

Had the word intuition been used instead of prejudice/bias and gut instinct, it wouldn't have such a negative bias associated with it, which was at the core of the question.

Twice Mav has shown his prejudice/bias (albeit unintended) by bringing up black people and their struggles. This was in reference to the word stereotype i used. His bias implies that all stereotypes have negative connotations, which is untrue. 'All Asians are good at Maths' or 'All black people have big.......*feet*' are equally as valid examples.
Maybe Mav just views the world through a more negative, untrusting lense than others? But this isn't about him or LP.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on December 01, 2022, 12:59:31 pm
By the way, there doesn’t seem to be great evidence behind the “police gut” idea. The research suggests that police officers don’t get better at spotting lies or reading body language as they accrue experience. And they aren’t necessarily better than others. The much more reliable method of investigating is to accumulate evidence and look for inconsistencies. Unfortunately, US TV shows love to promote the idea of the cop with an infallible ability to spot the liar. Lie to Me had a body language expert who would have a Eureka moment in each episode when a single observation would reveal to him the guilty person. In reality, one observation isn’t reliable and behaviour has to be assessed against the base line for that individual rather than some population standard. Otherwise, police will inevitably suspect the oddball like Lindy Chamberlain and try to mould the evidence to convict her.

Criminal Minds raised behavioural analysis to the level where it’s stars could tell police what food the “unsubs” like and what side of the bed they sleep on. In reality, the information the real unit compiles just paints a picture of the average weather than the particular unsub. When there was a sniper on the loose who had killed a number of random people, the FBI concluded that he was a lone gunman who was white. That was a reasonable guess based on historical information: the great majority of serial killers are white and they usually act alone. Ultimately the police caught a father and son team who were black.

Again, an alert copper is an open-minded one who pays particular attention to things that might go unnoticed by the lazy copper. That’s the Sherlock Holmes tradition that Columbo honoured.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2022, 01:04:58 pm
Yes. That racial profiling you mention has nothing to do with intuition... just pure, unadulterated prejudice.

Isn't all profiling prejudice is some way though? There is always some kind of -ist attached to it.
Racist.
Sexist
Ageist
etc

Serial killer profile - looking for a white male, 50+.
Reason behind that profiling - People missing from affluent neighbourhood, usually young girls, killer shows methodical patience and ability to cover his tracks.

Black people can't have money?
Females can't like young girls?
Younger people can't be organised?

Sure, what Mav described is an extreme case that never should've occurred. But if looked at data on the profile of people who are likely to give the police trouble, then black males, with past indescretions who are in the 18-50 age bracket would almost certainly be the picture you get painted from a statistical analysis point of view.

So whats the difference between the 2 types of profiling?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on December 01, 2022, 01:06:32 pm
Thryleon, perhaps I assumed that you regarded intuition as applying past experience after gathering enough information to understand how similar the new situation is. If you regard intuition as applying past experience without doing so, then we’re definitely on different sides of the argument. As the old saying goes, if you only have a hammer, then everything looks like a nail.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2022, 01:07:03 pm
Again, an alert copper is an open-minded one who pays particular attention to things that might go unnoticed by....
....the majority of people. Sometimes sub-consciously. Thus getting a feel for a situation without exactly knowing why - hence gut instinct and/or intuition.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on December 01, 2022, 01:12:07 pm
As I described it above.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2022, 01:13:29 pm
As I described it above.
disagree
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on December 01, 2022, 01:14:27 pm
I disagree with your disagreement.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 01, 2022, 01:14:39 pm
And what about intuition that proved correct based on no discernible evidence?

Example: I was looking forward to living in Darwin when I was a part of the HMAS Arrow ship's company. The Arrow was being refit in Sydney before sailing for, and to be based in, Darwin. I was the comms guy. Shortly (few weeks) before sailing out of Sydney for Darwin, I just got an awful feeling and got very anxious, debilitatingly so. So I swapped with another comms guys with similar experience (RO McGowan), and he went to Darwin on the Arrow and I stayed in Sydney on HMAS Bombard. The Arrow sank in Darwin Harbour during cyclone Tracey. Macca was unhurt, thank the gods. My good mate LT Bob Dagworthy, who was the Skipper, was also unhurt but two mates perished. (Crew of 18). This has happened a good few times and always without any evidence or reason. (No, not clairvoyant or anything like that nonsense).
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 01, 2022, 01:24:14 pm
Isn't all profiling prejudice is some way though? There is always some kind of -ist attached to it.
Racist.
Sexist
Ageist
etc

Correct profiling wouldn't be prejudiced, remembering that prejudice is to judge another unfairly based on... etc. Profiling more relies pure objectivity and consistencies with previous similar crimes. Once judgement and assessment becoming influenced by prejudice I believe it is no longer profiling... just some bigoted pr1ck attempting to force a fit to satisfy his/her twisted beliefs.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2022, 01:24:18 pm
@Baggers,
Ultimately, you need a bigger sample size to be proven statistically relevant. Doesn't make it less relevant for you though.

Thankfully, that is not something you'd ever have to prove.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on December 01, 2022, 01:24:44 pm
Maybe you heard storm warnings even though you didn’t dwell on them on a conscious level? Or maybe you had some nagging concerns which had nothing to do with the weather but they saved you from it by pure luck?  If not, maybe you are clairvoyant! In which case, send me some numbers for the next Powerball draw!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2022, 01:28:42 pm
Correct profiling wouldn't be prejudiced, remembering that prejudice is to judge another unfairly based on... etc. Profiling more relies pure objectivity and consistencies with previous similar crimes. Once judgement and assessment becoming influenced by prejudice I believe it is no longer profiling... just some bigoted pr1ck attempting to force a fit to satisfy his/her twisted beliefs.
Correct as in done correctly? Or Correct as in gets the bad guy based off the profile?

Its a path i don't really want to go down, because arguing devils advocate will get you labelled a racist in this instance.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2022, 01:29:52 pm
Maybe you heard storm warnings even though you didn’t dwell on them on a conscious level?

Oh you talk about sub-conscious and its acceptable.
I say it and its wrong?!  :P
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on December 01, 2022, 01:36:36 pm
Oh you talk about sub-conscious and its acceptable.
I say it and its wrong?!  :P
I’ve always included sub-conscious observations as being part of intuition:
To me intuition is the opposite of evidence-free assumptions. It is very useful when the decision-maker is flooded with observations or information, perhaps some of it contradictory, and trying to analyse each piece of information and weigh it formally will lead to decision paralysis. The decision-maker synthesises all of the information in a rational way although he or she might not be able to explain how to an observer. For example, someone might feel that they’ve entered a dangerous environment because they have observed certain things that they might not register on a conscious level or be able to articulate. That’s the classic, “I have a bad feeling about this” moment.
If you think I’ve criticised you for making the same point, direct me to the relevant post and I’ll comment further.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2022, 01:47:20 pm
If you think I’ve criticised you for making the same point, direct me to the relevant post and I’ll comment further.
Quote
....the majority of people. Sometimes sub-consciously. Thus getting a feel for a situation without exactly knowing why - hence gut instinct and/or intuition.

You replied - "as i described", implying you reject my take on it.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on December 01, 2022, 01:51:20 pm
The actual words were “As I described above” and I was referring to the quote in my last post. I was saying I agreed with you, that we were on the same page.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2022, 02:05:33 pm
The actual words were “As I described above” and I was referring to the quote in my last post. I was saying I agreed with you, that we were on the same page.
Which seems to contradict your previous statements then.  :-\

I feel like we are in an endless loop.  :-X
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 01, 2022, 02:21:39 pm
Thryleon, perhaps I assumed that you regarded intuition as applying past experience after gathering enough information to understand how similar the new situation is. If you regard intuition as applying past experience without doing so, then we’re definitely on different sides of the argument. As the old saying goes, if you only have a hammer, then everything looks like a nail.

Thing is im not in the argument.  I was actually thinking about troubleshooting IT issues when thinking about intuition.

Thing is I'm a bit of a subject matter expert with that so my gut and instincrs are honed on years of repeating a similar process to get to a result and having to think of a process of elimination as you go.

The instinct works well when judging a humans nature but you need to actually get to know the human to do so.

Anyway im enjoying living in the philosophical side of this and stand by my original comment about the cheese.

Irrespective of what it's called its still crap cheese!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on December 01, 2022, 02:23:13 pm
Kruddler, I don’t agree. I’m talking about sub-conscious observations not sub-conscious biases. In other words, observations that make a person feel that something isn’t right without being something he or she can put his or her finger on immediately. Maybe an alert cop will pick out someone impersonating a cop because of a gun worn on the wrong side or a uniform being a slightly wrong colour. That’s the sort of thing that can lead to a gut feeling that demands further investigation. But it is based on observation or evidence rather than a mindset that all of a particular subset of a population are suspect.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 01, 2022, 02:37:23 pm
Maybe you heard storm warnings even though you didn’t dwell on them on a conscious level? Or maybe you had some nagging concerns which had nothing to do with the weather but they saved you from it by pure luck?  If not, maybe you are clairvoyant! In which case, send me some numbers for the next Powerball draw!

It was way before Tracy that the swap draft took place after my 'intuition', so weather didn't come into it (besides, I love stormy weather). There could have been some unconscious doubts at play... don't know, consciously I loved Darwin and was wrapped at going there to live.
If I was clairvoyant... I can assure you Mrs Baggers and I would be swimming in Tattslotto winnings!

How about this one:
And this could be easy for those on here to relate to. Us v Rottingwood last year. We are down at 3/4 time and looking ordinary, no evidence/reason for any optimism. For reasons completely unknown to me I announced on this forum that we would win and that H would kick 4 in the last qtr, and nothing in H's performance to that time would indicate he'd kick 1 goal let alone 4... precisely 4.

K... this happens to moi more times than I'd like to admit. I don't like it one bit, even scares the cr@p out of me at times.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on December 01, 2022, 02:43:36 pm
Makes me think of the Front Bar. Radar would be saying “gamble responsibly” while Mick would be saying, “No, it can’t lose: bet your house on it!” If You’d listened to Mick, you’d be a rich man  :P
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 01, 2022, 02:45:56 pm
Reality is the lovers of Coon cheese are in the minority with this situation and the wider community expect to see the word Coon removed from the Vocabulary in Aus and any jobs lost won't be taken into account.
In fact the surname will probably disappear over time as well in Australia imho.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2022, 02:52:14 pm
Kruddler, I don’t agree. I’m talking about sub-conscious observations not sub-conscious biases. In other words, observations that make a person feel that something isn’t right without being something he or she can put his or her finger on immediately. Maybe an alert cop will pick out someone impersonating a cop because of a gun worn on the wrong side or a uniform being a slightly wrong colour. That’s the sort of thing that can lead to a gut feeling that demands further investigation. But it is based on observation or evidence rather than a mindset that all of a particular subset of a population are suspect.
My head hurts trying to understand your agreeing / not agreeing.
Lets wind it back a bit.

This was the quote that lead to this tangent.
Quote
Intuition or gut instinct is great if it is based on evidence. But intuition or gut instinct which isn’t based on evidence is just prejudice or bias.
You agree that intuition can be sub-consciously based on evidence? re cop knowing without knowing why.

You state that intuition based on a mindset is prejudice and bias.

My question is this.
If its all sub-conscious. How can you determine how and from where the 'feeling' came from....was it observational evidence or a pre-conceived mindset?? How can anyone say with any kind of certainty what a persons sub-conscious motivations behind their intuition were?
A second party would have to use their intuition to guess at where the first persons intuition came from.....but could be biased in their opinions. Soon you've got layering akin to Inception going on.

Which leads back to my original question...
Quote
What if an intuition or gut instinct is in line with evidence. Is it still prejudice and/or bias?
The trick here appears to be in the bias of the person answering the question.


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2022, 03:07:30 pm
K... this happens to moi more times than I'd like to admit. I don't like it one bit, even scares the cr@p out of me at times.

Should we start calling you Neo? You've broken out of the matrix and can see it all for how it is?

This kinda thing reminds me a story told by Mick Molloy about one of his many Red Dust trips up north into local aboriginal communities.
He told a story about how he was in a pub, yep, who'd thunk it, up North somewhere and over the course of a couple days all these aboriginals started flocking into town en masse. Multiple tribes who basically had no communication with eachother, no technological access to weather data or anything. All 'randomly' started coming to town. Imagine, all of australias capital cities coming to Melbourne at the same time, for seemingly no reason.

Through a few beers and catching up with the locals over a period of days, they all said there was huge storms coming. Traditional reports showed nothing out of the ordinary, rain definitely, but not end of the world stuff like they were suggesting. Now, i cannot recall the exact details and timeframe on this, but they were right. Not sure if there was a cyclone or just mass flooding, but it caught everyone (read - white people) by surprise as nobody predicted it. However, the aboriginals just kinda knew.
That was intuition on mass.

Post script to that story, Mick Molloy asked when he could next come up for a visit and asked one of the elders if he could come back in 6 months time, around October or whatever it was. The elder went and had a chat to other elders and came back to him and said better make it (lets say) December, as there would be more massive storms throughout October that year (much more than what would be considered normal). Mick agreed. Sure enough, in October, more massive storms and flooding.

They can also predict the type of storms coming based on how the rain feels when it hits their skin. This is not about being able to tell the difference between a light shower and a big downpour while you are in it, but rather whats to come in terms of duration and ferocity.

Ask them how they know, they can't tell you.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 01, 2022, 03:21:01 pm
I love reading the twists and turns in these discussions  :)

My late brother was a police officer for 20 years before going over to the dark side and becoming a barrister.  This was during a time of entrenched prejudice and bigotry as well as imported ethnic conflicts, the turmoil of post-war immigration, the sexual revolution, student protest movements, the Cold War and anti-war and anti-capital punishment demonstrations. 

Throughout his career as a police officer and as a barrister, my brother always maintained that material evidence was the key to obtaining a conviction, or avoiding one.  Gut feelings, intuition, prejudices, opinions and speculation almost invariably led police astray and obscured or missed evidence. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on December 01, 2022, 03:27:01 pm
The fact that you might not be able to put your finger on what activates your gut immediately doesn’t mean it will forever remain that way. The subconscious mind may merely be ahead of the conscious mind. Once you realise what put you on edge, you’d be pretty well placed to figure out whether your gut was being smart or just biased.

But that is just one type of intuition or gut feel. Another type of intuition is where there is a lot of information and it isn’t worthwhile to tease out every piece and consciously weight each as if a mathematical equation were involved. You just have to allow it all to swirl around like a soup as you decide whether to take the deal or go out with someone or, if you’re a judge, what penalty to impose. And you’re right that it becomes difficult to say in any particular case whether an inappropriate bias came into play. Perhaps the person who makes the decision might think he or she made an unbiased decision. But there have been analyses of particular Judges’ decisions over time that have revealed biases in favour of, for instance, private school alumni.

Of course, that makes it difficult to prove what has motivated people in particular instances. But trends will become apparent over time. And questions asked by employers and the like that seek information that might lead to discrimination should be banned, no matter how much the interviewer might claim they’d never use that information unlawfully, e.g marital status, sexual orientation, ethnicity or religion.

There have been many stories of applications being submitted with equivalent qualifications but one with an Anglo name and the other with a name that suggested the candidate was black. Surprise, surprise, the Anglo name would be called in for interview while the Black name would be screened out by HR’s gut instinct.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 01, 2022, 03:32:50 pm
The fact that you might not be able to put your finger on what activates your gut immediately doesn’t mean it will forever remain that way. The subconscious mind may merely be ahead of the conscious mind. Once you realise what put you on edge, you’d be pretty well placed to figure out whether your gut was being smart or just biased.

Doesn't mean you will either. Use Baggers as an example, you reckon he knows why all these years later?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on December 01, 2022, 03:38:23 pm
And we don’t know what became of Melissa Caddick. Some things will remain a mystery.

But if you’re a cop who conducted a search, it might behove you to be able to articulate what attracted your suspicion when you get to Court.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 01, 2022, 03:44:16 pm
Reality is the lovers of Coon cheese are in the minority with this situation and the wider community expect to see the word Coon removed from the Vocabulary in Aus and any jobs lost won't be taken into account.
In fact the surname will probably disappear over time as well in Australia imho.
If by wider community you mean the majority, I would beg to differ. I'd be fascinated to see some sort of "head count". Apart from this forum/thread, every time I have heard this type of topic (ie name changes) discussed amongst the varying groups of people I associate and interact with both at work and socially, the overwhelming majority I have witnessed first hand have the "what a crock of crap" or "who gives a fork" attitude. Do I need to choose my friends, family and work colleagues more carefully?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 01, 2022, 03:47:04 pm
And we don’t know what became of Melissa Caddick. Some things will remain a mystery.


As Benjamin Franklin once wrote and the Hells Angels live by, "Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead". Nothing mysterious about it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 01, 2022, 05:22:51 pm
If by wider community you mean the majority, I would beg to differ. I'd be fascinated to see some sort of "head count". Apart from this forum/thread, every time I have heard this type of topic (ie name changes) discussed amongst the varying groups of people I associate and interact with both at work and socially, the overwhelming majority I have witnessed first hand have the "what a crock of crap" or "who gives a fork" attitude. Do I need to choose my friends, family and work colleagues more carefully?
The company must have thought the community wanted the wording changed else they wouldnt have bothered changing it to Cheers in Oz and costing them money in the short term. I'm sure they would have done some marketing surveys before making that decision..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 01, 2022, 05:40:51 pm
The company must have thought the community wanted the wording changed else they wouldnt have bothered changing it to Cheers in Oz and costing them money in the short term. I'm sure they would have done some marketing surveys before making that decision..

That would make common sense EB but common sense ain't so common these days.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 01, 2022, 07:10:07 pm
Doesn't mean you will either. Use Baggers as an example, you reckon he knows why all these years later?

Somewhat, even my Neuropsychologist buddy was fascinated. He did have me do a series of abstract IQ tests and concluded that perhaps with the apparently high test results that was a significant factor, along with the hyper-vigilance that comes with PTSD. Otherwise, just accept it as unexplainable for the time being. Investigations continue.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 01, 2022, 07:11:31 pm
And we don’t know what became of Melissa Caddick. Some things will remain a mystery.

But if you’re a cop who conducted a search, it might behove you to be able to articulate what attracted your suspicion when you get to Court.

Perhaps Liam Neeson needs to be assigned to the case? ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 01, 2022, 07:12:10 pm
The company must have thought the community wanted the wording changed else they wouldnt have bothered changing it to Cheers in Oz and costing them money in the short term. I'm sure they would have done some marketing surveys before making that decision..


Yep. Brand protection?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 01, 2022, 08:04:55 pm
Yep. Brand protection?
I think so,strategy would have been to take a hit in the short term losing a few older customers who wouldnt recognize the new naming but pick up some new customers with a marketing campaign explaining the change and hoping to be rewarded by showing some understanding of the hurt the wording was causing and thus making them a good corporate citizen which may help also with other products they sell under the company banner. Never been a fan of the product myself but it has been a household name for many years when you and I were growing up but as DJ pointed out its not a major contributor of company earnings.
We were more Cracker Barrel eaters which is also under the Saputo banner........the following is a guide to all the dairy stuff Saputo owns  in Aus which shows you how small an impact Cheer is on their earnings..
https://guide.ethical.org.au/company/?company=1953
Also shows the pros and cons of the company as corporate citizens.....and I reckon they would like to improve their rankings.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 02, 2022, 07:57:12 am
Change of topic, I must be getting old but the mere sight and/or sound of the following people just grinds my gears. Top 5 in no particular order:
1. Kevin Sheedy
2. Grace Tame
3. Greta Thunberg
4. Donald Trump
5. Waleed Aly (or anyone from The Project)
Is it just me?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 02, 2022, 07:59:23 am
Change of topic, I must be getting old but the mere sight and/or sound of the following people just grinds my gears. Top 5 in no particular order:
1. Kevin Sheedy
2. Grace Tame
3. Greta Thunberg
4. Donald Trump
5. Waleed Aly (or anyone from The Project)
Is it just me?
Bit of a theme going on there, something to do with people who overshare?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 02, 2022, 08:15:28 am
If by wider community you mean the majority, I would beg to differ. I'd be fascinated to see some sort of "head count". Apart from this forum/thread, every time I have heard this type of topic (ie name changes) discussed amongst the varying groups of people I associate and interact with both at work and socially, the overwhelming majority I have witnessed first hand have the "what a crock of crap" or "who gives a fork" attitude. Do I need to choose my friends, family and work colleagues more carefully?
+1 with the following added it being a sign of the times we live in.  Cancel culture is currently trendy and this was an easy one to get across the line because even the staunchest of defenders for coon cheese couldn't argue a case for keeping that name.

Change of topic, I must be getting old but the mere sight and/or sound of the following people just grinds my gears. Top 5 in no particular order:
1. Kevin Sheedy
2. Grace Tame
3. Greta Thunberg
4. Donald Trump
5. Waleed Aly (or anyone from The Project)
Is it just me?


Not just you.  All of them come across as incredibly hypocritical in some ways.  All of them have different ick factors.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on December 02, 2022, 08:35:38 am
Change of topic, I must be getting old but the mere sight and/or sound of the following people just grinds my gears. Top 5 in no particular order:
1. Kevin Sheedy
2. Grace Tame
3. Greta Thunberg
4. Donald Trump
5. Waleed Aly (or anyone from The Project)
Is it just me?

I'll give you four out of five.
With Grace Tame we have to understand that she has been very damaged by her experiences.
Unless we've had similar experiences we can't possibly understand the depth of feeling and the impact.

We see her being standoffish and dismissive with a Prime Minister, and some get a feeling of 'that's a bit rude.'
Some of us are stronger than others in coping.
But the impact of abuse is more often than not life long.
That will affect the actions, words and behaviour of even the strongest.
I suspect, rightly or wrongly, that Grace often gets the feeling that the supportive words of some folk are not 100% genuine and she finds it difficult to suffer them with a smiley face all the time.
There's an anger there that's hard to hide.
It's a bit off-putting to some folks who think she perhaps needs to harden up and move on but it's a struggle we can never really understand unless we've experienced it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 02, 2022, 09:05:20 am
Difference!

Many years ago something like racism was based on the feeling of superiority of one group over another.
Nowadays it's more about a 'difference' and a lack of understanding and appreciation of another group.

Yep. Same page here. Difference, for some, causes fear... others, fascination. Studies have also shown, quite conclusively, that prejudice is taught, it's not in our DNA.

I know from my own experience of being brought up in a home where different races were invited in and accepted - the labourers my father employed for his business as well as all kinds of fascinating friends. Also they had a number of gay friends who were also invited in and treated no differently to anyone else, pretty unheard of then... but my father was a text book socialist. I recall, even, around 1971 when his business was in big trouble financially (ripped off by Ron Walker... story for another day), he mortgaged the house so he could keep paying his labourers... how dare he betray capitalism like that as a business owner (landscaping). He was always confident in his own ability and that he would get back on his feet - he did. His labourers never knew.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 02, 2022, 09:16:25 am
Change of topic, I must be getting old but the mere sight and/or sound of the following people just grinds my gears. Top 5 in no particular order:
1. Kevin Sheedy
2. Grace Tame
3. Greta Thunberg
4. Donald Trump
5. Waleed Aly (or anyone from The Project)
Is it just me?


Interesting list, GTC old son. Well, no so old ;)

Sheedy? Yep. He even irritates most thinking cheats.com.au supporters now.

Grace? Similar to Principal LODS, I factor in the horrendous traumas she suffered and respect her ability to turn it around with a commitment to a cause. But I do get how abrasive she can be.

Greta? Never bothered me. Just a teenager with a cause who was thrust into the limelight. Admire that she was committed to a cause, though understand how her manner could ruffle feathers... to say the least. However, I loved how a teenager could infuriate and undo A Bolt so easily... suspect he was jealous that a teenager was getting a 100 times more publicity and support than him.

Trump? Yep. A sad, pathetic yet dangerous narcissist... text book narcissist.

Waleed? Know too little about him to comment. Haven't read his articles or watched The Project... hardly ever watch free to air teev.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 02, 2022, 09:22:27 am
Bit of a theme going on there, something to do with people who overshare?

As soon as you are outspoken, you'll polarize. Nature of beast, I guess. And... gulp... this little black duck has been accused of 'over sharing' on more than one occasion, but I guess it's more of a personal nature.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 02, 2022, 09:26:10 am
I'll give you four out of five.
With Grace Tame we have to understand that she has been very damaged by her experiences.
Unless we've had similar experiences we can't possibly understand the depth of feeling and the impact.

We see her being standoffish and dismissive with a Prime Minister, and some get a feeling of 'that's a bit rude.'
Some of us are stronger than others in coping.
But the impact of abuse is more often than not life long.
That will affect the actions, words and behaviour of even the strongest.
I suspect, rightly or wrongly, that Grace often gets the feeling that the supportive words of some folk are not 100% genuine and she finds it difficult to suffer them with a smiley face all the time.
There's an anger there that's hard to hide.
It's a bit off-putting to some folks who think she perhaps needs to harden up and move on but it's a struggle we can never really understand unless we've experienced it.

Grace has autism and that affects her presentation.  Given that, and the dreadful abuse she suffered, I’m happy to cut her some slack.

Greta Thunberg also has autism (Asperger’s) and that helps to explain her all-absorbing interest in halting environmental destruction.  I quite like Greta … who couldn’t like someone with Tintin as one of their given names?

I’d replace Grace and Greta with Peta Credlin and Alan Jones.  I can take or leave Waleed Aly and there are many other folk who get up my goat. Of that lot, Clive Palmer is probably the person who most churns my gut.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on December 02, 2022, 09:43:05 am
I’d throw in Elon Musk. What a wanker. When is this infatuation with Billionaires, particularly Tech Billionaires, going to fade? He and his ilk seem to attract the same obsequiousness as Royals, Lords and other nobility have enjoyed in England. He proved he was an entitled twat with his attempt to insert himself into the Thai Cave rescue and his stupidity is on display as the chief Twit.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 02, 2022, 10:02:43 am
Grace has autism and that affects her presentation.  Given that, and the dreadful abuse she suffered, I’m happy to cut her some slack.

Greta Thunberg also has autism (Asperger’s) and that helps to explain her all-absorbing interest in halting environmental destruction.  I quite like Greta … who couldn’t like someone with Tintin as one of their given names?

I’d replace Grace and Greta with Peta Credlin and Alan Jones.  I can take or leave Waleed Aly and there are many other folk who get up my goat. Of that lot, Clive Palmer is probably the person who most churns my gut.

So very similar here, David. Well said on replacing Grace and Greta with Credlin and Jones...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 02, 2022, 10:07:16 am
I’d throw in Elon Musk. What a wanker. When is this infatuation with Billionaires, particularly Tech Billionaires, going to fade? He and his ilk seem to attract the same obsequiousness as Royals, Lords and other nobility have enjoyed in England. He proved he was an entitled twat with his attempt to insert himself into the Thai Cave rescue and his stupidity is on display as the chief Twit.

I find Musk a very perplexing dude. I watched Lex Fridman's podcast with Musk which was illuminating and fascinating. Lex is one of the very best interviewers I've watched and he sure did get Musk to open up.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 02, 2022, 10:49:08 am
Unless we've had similar experiences we can't possibly understand the depth of feeling and the impact.
Yes no doubt this is true, but is it an excuse for some of the abhorrent behaviour that some exhibit in the public arena?

What part of life damaged Sheedy, Bolt, Jones, Credlin, Panahi, etc., etc.?

It seems there is a difference between demanding to be treated with respect, and treating others with respect, and that double standard / contradiction might be at the root of much of the public disdain! ;)

For that matter I see the same double standard in the behaviour of someone like Goodes, who exhibits a tendency to send a message that the end justifies any means necessary, which apparently labels me as racist. Of course if questioned he would deny that allegation, but the problem is his inclusive words and actions do not match the sporadic rhetoric.

You can't make peace with someone by getting frustrated and smashing a metaphorical rock on their head, just once terminates the relationship!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on December 02, 2022, 10:53:46 am
Baggers, given the topic is “the mere sight and/or sound of the following people just grinds my gears”, you already know I have no desire to listen to any podcast interview with him. That said, I’d be happy to read any insights you distilled from it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 02, 2022, 10:56:09 am
Just going back to the subconscious mind, I think that we see far more than our conscious mind can process but our lizard brain takes it all in and spits out anything that could be important.

Many years ago, I was walking from one of the La Trobe carparks towards the library.  There was a bloke walking in the opposite direction about 200m away and a thought flashed through my brain, "I haven't seen Peter for a while."  As we got closer, I realised that it was Peter.  I don't know whether there was something about his gait or posture but there's no way that I could have recognised him at 200m.

I spend a lot of time in the bush and have had numerous encounters with snakes but they are rarely unexpected.  One close call was when I foolishly decided to walk through some scrub wearing thongs. I was in mid-step when I suddenly thought, "This is a good place for a snake."  I kept my foot raised and, sure enough, there was a smallish Tiger Snake coiled up right where I was about to plant my Japanese safety boot.  I retreated and found another route. 

I have had many similar experiences and I am sure that they are the subconscious mind using sensory skills we've forgotten we have.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 02, 2022, 11:29:25 am
Baggers, given the topic is “the mere sight and/or sound of the following people just grinds my gears”, you already know I have no desire to listen to any podcast interview with him. That said, I’d be happy to read any insights you distilled from it.

I didn't automatically assume that you had no interest in listening to a podcast with Musk due to the thread title. Maybe you wanted to know more about what makes him tick? As I did. I find that listening to or watching interviews with people I don't particularly care for, to be at times enlightening.

From the two and a half hours of the Musk interview I gleaned a few interesting insights re his passion for family, what moved him to tears (he teared up during the interview), what motivates his IT passions and what he was intolerant of. I found some of what I watched contrary to his appalling attitude toward staff at Twitter, as recently reported. And letting Trump's account being re-activated was disappointing and indicative. By the end of the interview I found him complex, contradictory and on a personal level, I didn't much care for him - seemed completely devoid of compassion, self-absorbed and with a curious Saviour Complex on display.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 02, 2022, 11:34:52 am
Just going back to the subconscious mind, I think that we see far more than our conscious mind can process but our lizard brain takes it all in and spits out anything that could be important.

Many years ago, I was walking from one of the La Trobe carparks towards the library.  There was a bloke walking in the opposite direction about 200m away and a thought flashed through my brain, "I haven't seen Peter for a while."  As we got closer, I realised that it was Peter.  I don't know whether there was something about his gait or posture but there's no way that I could have recognised him at 200m.

I spend a lot of time in the bush and have had numerous encounters with snakes but they are rarely unexpected.  One close call was when I foolishly decided to walk through some scrub wearing thongs. I was in mid-step when I suddenly thought, "This is a good place for a snake."  I kept my foot raised and, sure enough, there was a smallish Tiger Snake coiled up right where I was about to plant my Japanese safety boot.  I retreated and found another route. 

I have had many similar experiences and I am sure that they are the subconscious mind using sensory skills we've forgotten we have.

The subconscious/unconscious mind has been central to my studies for decades, David, starting with Carl Jung's observations right through to today's more adventurous neuropsychologists. In a nutshell... our knowledge of the workings of the human brain are still embryonic, along with the depths of the unconscious. Sheesh, consciousness can't even be explained!

I look forward to a chat about this with you at a game we attend next year! It's quite amazing, even incredible what lies between the human lugholes.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on December 02, 2022, 12:11:42 pm
Baggers, that’s the problem I have with Musk. He’s just addicted to attention. And the best way to garner attention is to act unpredictably without worrying too much about sticking to a guiding philosophy (boring!). There’s nothing better to spark outrage than being a hypocrite. That makes getting to know the man a largely pointless exercise. Sure, he’s for freedom of speech when it suits him but he’ll sack employees on the spot if they speak out. He’ll use his wealth to intimidate corporations to bend to his will but he’ll bleat about Apple bullying him by cutting advertising on Twitter (as many other businesses have done). And how about his stunt of sacking a huge part of Twitter’s staff and then demanding that those who remained needed to work twice as hard, What you’re left with is an entitled twat who enjoys behaving like a wealthy toddler.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 02, 2022, 12:50:33 pm
Now how could I have forgotten Musk. There are two others who are definitely in my top 10, Luke Beverage and Jake Stringer. I should have clarified, these are all people with a face/head I like to smack (figuratively speaking of course, I don't condone violence of any sort but damn these pricks above make it hard).

Tame is the one that probably grinds my gears the most at the moment. The are plenty of people in the same predicament as her but dont carry themselves the way she does to my eye at least.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 02, 2022, 03:38:25 pm
Now how could I have forgotten Musk.
Musk is an interesting case, perhaps a prime example of how money corrupts.

Years ago he was a bit of a nerd icon, inventing pretty much everything to make the world a better place while making a profit. Now he just claims he invents everything to make a huge profit while delivering 4/5th of feck all, no wonder he's a Trump ally, they have both worked out you can make more money from sprouting bullcrap!

PS; I get it that SpaceX is a success, it's making some ground in the re-usable launch vehicle space, but it's offset all that good by launching thousands  and thousands of night sky polluting bits of Starlink debris into orbit just to deliver Americans a B-Grade satellite internet service.

Starlink mobile internet on the Go!
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/43/c5/48/43c548eae0fde14d7499832bf5547f48.jpg)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 07, 2022, 06:02:34 pm
People are up in arms over SEN hosts Timmy and Garry Lyon not calling out comments Johnny from Epping made on SEN on their show about Jewish recruit Sheezel. He made a comment about Jewish people having lots of money and with their backing, perhaps North no longer need the Tassie deal for money. They are calling this anti semitic, is this PC gone stark raving mad or am I out of touch and uneducated on this stuff?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on December 07, 2022, 06:51:58 pm
People are up in arms over SEN hosts Timmy and Garry Lyon not calling out comments Johnny from Epping made on SEN on their show about Jewish recruit Sheezel. He made a comment about Jewish people having lots of money and with their backing, perhaps North no longer need the Tassie deal for money. They are calling this anti semitic, is this PC gone stark raving mad or am I out of touch and uneducated on this stuff?

It ties into stereotypes of Jews being greedy, that they are desperate to make money by any means necessary, that they are penny pinching tight ar$e$, that they control the world's financial systems etc. It's an old stenotype, dating back to the middle ages, when Jews sometimes had restrictions on their economic activity and sometimes were forbidden from owning land. At times the only option they had for earning a living was through high interest loans and the like, something Christians were forbidden from doing. There's more to it, but that'll do for now.

I'm guessing that fellow's comment wasn't meant maliciously, but it's a poor comment regardless and I think Jews would find it offensive.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 07, 2022, 07:35:18 pm
It ties into stereotypes of Jews being greedy, that they are desperate to make money by any means necessary, that they are penny pinching tight ar$e$, that they control the world's financial systems etc. It's an old stenotype, dating back to the middle ages, when Jews sometimes had restrictions on their economic activity and sometimes were forbidden from owning land. At times the only option they had for earning a living was through high interest loans and the like, something Christians were forbidden from doing. There's more to it, but that'll do for now.

I'm guessing that fellow's comment wasn't meant maliciously, but it's a poor comment regardless and I think Jews would find it offensive.
I know about the background and stereotypes behind the Jewish community, what I dont understand is how a comment about being wealthy can be offensive. Its fact that Jewish people are generally wealthy because they are smart, hard working people. Its fact that the Jewish community stick together and help one another unlike what I have seen and experienced with many other communities which I won't mention specifically. I simply put these two facts I mentioned together and come up with the reason for Johhny's comment. Nothing malicious, nothing racist, merely pointing out that if the Jewish community get behind Sheezel and the Kangas, they could provide some serious input both from a business networking perspective and financially. My first impressions were that of a long bow being drawn. Perhaps nowadays, any mention or association of a community/people and a trait (for the want of a better term) is now stereotypical and hence offensive.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 07, 2022, 09:31:10 pm
I know about the background and stereotypes behind the Jewish community, what I dont understand is how a comment about being wealthy can be offensive. Its fact that Jewish people are generally wealthy because they are smart, hard working people. Its fact that the Jewish community stick together and help one another unlike what I have seen and experienced with many other communities which I won't mention specifically. I simply put these two facts I mentioned together and come up with the reason for Johhny's comment. Nothing malicious, nothing racist, merely pointing out that if the Jewish community get behind Sheezel and the Kangas, they could provide some serious input both from a business networking perspective and financially. My first impressions were that of a long bow being drawn. Perhaps nowadays, any mention or association of a community/people and a trait (for the want of a better term) is now stereotypical and hence offensive.

Stereotypes are out unless you are stereotyping WASPS.

Then they are fair game for anyone.

Even if they dont truly belong to that group.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 08, 2022, 11:33:27 am
Is Dan's SEC plan viable, or is this his retirement plan?

Reading today various issues politicians need to find a way to stop the corporates throwing a tantrum every time some market regulation is enacted. It's clear these things should work if not for some bonus hunting executive who's pissed off because his 7 figure salary is going to be cut by 10% or 15%.

You know from the reading that the various claims that "regulation drives up prices" are bogus, prices rise because executives won't accept lower margins, so they deliberately increase prices. I feel for them, after all they are barely making ends meet and their executive bonus depends on a percentage!

As an aside, I'd like to see politician pensions contingent on not entering corporate life post politics, so politicians can't lay the ground work to feather their nest before they are voted out. Remove some of the incentive that exists to screw over the public for personal profit. Too many get life long pensions, then join the board of the very companies they were previously trying to regulate, they win both ways and the public pays. Let the politicians join charitable boards, hospitals or other non-profits, but not the mainstream corporates they were trying to regulate.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 08, 2022, 03:02:16 pm
This is a new Dyson gadget, portable integrated noise and air pollution reduction.
(https://sm.pcmag.com/t/pcmag_au/news/d/dyson-zone/dyson-zone-futuristic-air-purifying-headphones-launch-in-mar_mkq6.1920.jpg)
I've sent an email to Dyson asking for immediate delivery of samples to Peta Credlin and Andrew Bolt, because you'll never get more foul obnoxious noise emitted than from those two!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 08, 2022, 05:44:58 pm
This is a new Dyson gadget, portable integrated noise and air pollution reduction.
(https://sm.pcmag.com/t/pcmag_au/news/d/dyson-zone/dyson-zone-futuristic-air-purifying-headphones-launch-in-mar_mkq6.1920.jpg)
I've sent an email to Dyson asking for immediate delivery of samples to Peta Credlin and Andrew Bolt, because you'll never get more foul obnoxious noise emitted than from those two!

You left out Rita, Spotted One... a sad trio for sure.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 08, 2022, 10:07:20 pm
Cookers tried to take over Germany 🙄

It’s a good thing that they’re as thick as two short planks!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 09, 2022, 09:11:25 am
I know about the background and stereotypes behind the Jewish community, what I dont understand is how a comment about being wealthy can be offensive. Its fact that Jewish people are generally wealthy because they are smart, hard working people. Its fact that the Jewish community stick together and help one another unlike what I have seen and experienced with many other communities which I won't mention specifically. I simply put these two facts I mentioned together and come up with the reason for Johhny's comment. Nothing malicious, nothing racist, merely pointing out that if the Jewish community get behind Sheezel and the Kangas, they could provide some serious input both from a business networking perspective and financially. My first impressions were that of a long bow being drawn. Perhaps nowadays, any mention or association of a community/people and a trait (for the want of a better term) is now stereotypical and hence offensive.

Understand where you're coming from, GTC old son. But the problem with stereotypes is they pigeon hole and reduce certain groups of people to strict behaviour patterns, which is unfair, naive, wrong and ignorant. I use the word 'ignorant' not in a condemning/critical way but more in a 'not knowing' sense.

There are sliding scales in just about every particular 'race rituals & traits', religions, genders, sexualities and so on. We tend to categorize according to the more fundamental or most rigid or popular understanding of these human groupings.

The best man at my wedding was Jewish. Most of my father's clients over 66 years as a landscape architect were Jewish. So yours truly has had a lot of direct connection with the Jewish community... all my life... and these people vary in many ways, just like Christians, Muslims, and agnostics and atheists! My best man loved his bacon, was not great with money, however he and is family did the Shabbat every Friday night and I was invited from time to time as the gentile - some Jews kinda look down on the gentile, most don't. Great feed. Beautiful ritual. But the conversation was just like any family on a Friday night, just like church going Christians after church on a Sunday (plenty don't go to church) or Muslim folks kneeling and praying toward Mecca 5 times per day...

When someone uttered not to long ago about 'privileged' white males many of us were up in arms as many of us aint privileged, though I do get the sweeping generalization that being born a white male has given us a head start on many other folks - a fact. Point is many of us didn't like being stereotyped in that way as we sure didn't feel privileged.

Most domestic violence is perpetrated by men, but many more men are not violent to their kids or significant other.

Another example relating to my own bigotry recently on this forum. I made a sweeping generalization about Neanderthals (the popularly regarded, denigrating stereotype) which David (DJC) quickly corrected and explained how sophisticated they were in some important respects.

I think it is a very positive thing that we take the time to get know people as individuals before making judgements based on 'popular' and conditioned stereotype judgements... and understand that there is a sliding scale of behaviour within these groups.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on December 09, 2022, 10:18:04 am
I think the thing that gets some folks back up with these issues is that there seems to be this idea that to build up one group we need to denigrate and stereotype and put down another.
You don't win friends and influence people doing that.
So disreagarding or labelling opinions as those of the Old, White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant is not OK.
It's ageist, racist and religiously intolerant because it supposes an intellectual inferiority on a specific group
It's a sloppy generalisation because amongst that group there are many different points of view and life experiences, some rivalling those of minority groups.

It's a bit like the 'Boomer' tag.
The generation that grew up without computers, mobiles even television (our family didn't own one until I was ten)
The generation who knew fathers scarred by the horrors of war.
The generation who have spent 40-50 years of their lives paying taxes and setting money aside in super.
A lot of us are comfortable in our elder years...but we've worked most of our life and money still needs to be watched.
From year 10 onwards we lost most of our friends and at a guess only about a third went on to college and university.
The rest had to leave and get to work.
And during our uni and college days, much like today, many of us held down part time jobs
We don't all own houses by the bay and nice boats.
My family weren't that badly off as a youngun but I remember mum used to like the rainy days...the debt collectors didn't seem to come around as often.
Things were a little easier still when she started work, but that meant our afternoons had a few chores before we finally got to watch Shintaro.
They weren't all "Happy Days"

So be careful with labels.
History is the past.
We can't change that
Education, support and lifting up the downtrodden and neglected is what the future should be about.


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 09, 2022, 10:36:29 am
I think the thing that gets some folks back up with these issues is that there seems to be this idea that to build up one group we need to denigrate and stereotype and put down another.
Apparently it's justified when it's used as the means to achieve a preferred outcome for the nouveau downtrodden.

Get onboard, you need a plight to blame on somebody else or you will be left behind! ;D

On that issue, did anybody watch the Harry and Meghan show?

Apparently it's already being labelled a documentary about kids with 1st World problems, which has then been craftily responded to by Meghan supporters as tactical WASP response No.1.

Apparently Meghan is a oppressed African American struggler fighting against the oppression of "The Old Money", while Harry is a victim of oppression by the dominant and overbearing world of "The Old Money", and it turns out they are making a packet of "The Old Money" for self-identifying as victims of being alive. Where is it that they live again, at least in their UK home, with the enemy it seems entrenched in "The Old Money"?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 09, 2022, 10:44:19 am
Apart from the SEN listener’s stereotyping of Jewish folk, there’s also his notion that Jewish football followers should change their allegiance  for ethnoreligious reasons.  How offensive is that to families like the Pratts, Smorgons, and Gutnicks, as well my former Jewish battler colleague who would walk from Albert Park to VFL Park to watch his beloved Navy Blues?

Stereotyping, positive or negative is based on false premises and reinforces the wrong belief that ethnoreligious affiliations determines behaviour, characteristics, capacity, morals, intelligence, etc.

And that brings me to WASP or White Anglo-Saxon Protestant; a label applied to an ethnoreligious group who are the white, male, upper-class, American Protestant historical elite.  The Anglo-Saxon part (and there isn’t and never has been an Anglo-Saxon ethic group) should really be northwestern European.  It doesn’t include political elites like the Kennedy clan because of their religion and it doesn’t include the vast majority of Americans of northwestern European descent who have little political and financial clout.

Our historical political elite was originally of British descent, reflecting the make up of invaders/colonisers but Catholicism wasn’t the barrier to influence that it was in Britain.  Migration, diverse religions, the union movement and the absence of a strict class system has eroded elitism to more of a gender qualification.

Referring to white Australians of northwestern European descent as WASPs is incorrect, stereotypical and bigotry.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 09, 2022, 10:51:14 am
Understand where you're coming from, GTC old son. But the problem with stereotypes is they pigeon hole and reduce certain groups of people to strict behaviour patterns, which is unfair, naive, wrong and ignorant. I use the word 'ignorant' not in a condemning/critical way but more in a 'not knowing' sense.

There are sliding scales in just about every particular 'race rituals & traits', religions, genders, sexualities and so on. We tend to categorize according to the more fundamental or most rigid or popular understanding of these human groupings.

The best man at my wedding was Jewish. Most of my father's clients over 66 years as a landscape architect were Jewish. So yours truly has had a lot of direct connection with the Jewish community... all my life... and these people vary in many ways, just like Christians, Muslims, and agnostics and atheists! My best man loved his bacon, was not great with money, however he and is family did the Shabbat every Friday night and I was invited from time to time as the gentile - some Jews kinda look down on the gentile, most don't. Great feed. Beautiful ritual. But the conversation was just like any family on a Friday night, just like church going Christians after church on a Sunday (plenty don't go to church) or Muslim folks kneeling and praying toward Mecca 5 times per day...

When someone uttered not to long ago about 'privileged' white males many of us were up in arms as many of us aint privileged, though I do get the sweeping generalization that being born a white male has given us a head start on many other folks - a fact. Point is many of us didn't like being stereotyped in that way as we sure didn't feel privileged.

Most domestic violence is perpetrated by men, but many more men are not violent to their kids or significant other.

Another example relating to my own bigotry recently on this forum. I made a sweeping generalization about Neanderthals (the popularly regarded, denigrating stereotype) which David (DJC) quickly corrected and explained how sophisticated they were in some important respects.

I think it is a very positive thing that we take the time to get know people as individuals before making judgements based on 'popular' and conditioned stereotype judgements... and understand that there is a sliding scale of behaviour within these groups.

Appreciate the time taken in the post above but my view on this is totally different and hence my time on forums may be limited in the near future as this stuff has gone too far IMO.
As a person of ethnic background, in the setting you describe above where you were invited to your friends house, if you were with  my extended family at the dinner table, you would here plenty of "stereo typical" comments about us Italians all made in good humour. Nothing offensive (in my view) or racist or deragatory towards other groups/communities, just anecdotes about us growing up "our way" versus others. These anecdotes and jokes are about things like eating, food, going out clubbing, getting married,  living with a partner but not marries, children out of wed lock, all stuff that we laugh about today. And if you joined in the conversation or laughed along with us, no one would bat an eyelid. I would be comfortable in applying the above to every family member, friend or acquaintance that I know of similar ethnic back ground. Let me be 110% clear with this statement, I AM REFERRING TO PEOPLE I KNOW PERSONALLY.
So I hope I have demonstrated how someone in my shoes finds all this very difficult to grasp and understand.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 09, 2022, 05:33:36 pm
Appreciate the time taken in the post above but my view on this is totally different and hence my time on forums may be limited in the near future as this stuff has gone too far IMO.
As a person of ethnic background, in the setting you describe above where you were invited to your friends house, if you were with  my extended family at the dinner table, you would here plenty of "stereo typical" comments about us Italians all made in good humour. Nothing offensive (in my view) or racist or deragatory towards other groups/communities, just anecdotes about us growing up "our way" versus others. These anecdotes and jokes are about things like eating, food, going out clubbing, getting married,  living with a partner but not marries, children out of wed lock, all stuff that we laugh about today. And if you joined in the conversation or laughed along with us, no one would bat an eyelid. I would be comfortable in applying the above to every family member, friend or acquaintance that I know of similar ethnic back ground. Let me be 110% clear with this statement, I AM REFERRING TO PEOPLE I KNOW PERSONALLY.
So I hope I have demonstrated how someone in my shoes finds all this very difficult to grasp and understand.

Totally understand GTC. No problemo. And I don't ever recall you expressing an opinion that would see you unwelcome here, quite the contrary. Value your perceptions, doesn't matter that you and I may differ on certain subjects. Won't effect our friendship on CSC one little bit. Love to go to a game with you (and others from here) next year.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 09, 2022, 06:54:29 pm
Totally understand GTC. No problemo. And I don't ever recall you expressing an opinion that would see you unwelcome here, quite the contrary. Value your perceptions, doesn't matter that you and I may differ on certain subjects. Won't effect our friendship on CSC one little bit. Love to go to a game with you (and others from here) next year.
Thats a deal, we should make a group effort to go a game. The post match posts on here would be hilarious, I am sure even if we all went to the game together, sat next to each other, we would all see different things  ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 09, 2022, 07:25:16 pm
Zwarry used to organise catch ups at games.  I think I met Cookie, Bluesgirl and Enz at one game.

VFL games were good for catch ups too; I saw Baggers, Riverrat and Amers at Punt Road.

And you’re right G2C, we all saw the games differently 🙂
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on December 09, 2022, 07:50:11 pm
Zwarry used to organise catch ups at games.  I think I met Cookie, Bluesgirl and Enz at one game.

VFL games were good for catch ups too; I saw Baggers, Riverrat and Amers at Punt Road.

And you’re right G2C, we all saw the games differently 🙂

I remember that day at the G DJ. Quite a few years ago now.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 12, 2022, 05:42:28 pm
I feel sorry for Crawf, top bloke, hasn't done much wrong, he would love to give live theatre a real crack.

But it appears the knives are out for him, and it's a lost cause he'll never get a fair hearing.

The arts terrorists have kyboshed his gig, despite some of the critics honestly reporting he was surprisingly good, in fact they reported far far better than they expected, the rest just want to kick an AFL footballer or open up a slot as a job for a mate, and Crawf doesn't fit the bill.

The footy supporting live arts community should blacklist the show, but Crawf wouldn't want that and it will only make things worse for him long term and hurt the rest of the crew that have worked so hard in rehearsals!

Some of these people happily tell the general public it's bigoted, homophobic or holds some other prejudice, and yet as they beg for inclusion with one hand they stab Crawf in the back with the other! What is it to be, inclusion or an eye for an eye?

Crawf probably needs to head interstate or OS to get a fair run at it!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on December 12, 2022, 07:15:18 pm
From the the clips that I have seen he is terrible, he can't sing which is obviously a requirement. Perhaps they used him to promote the show to sell tickets and now they have flicked him to get a real performer.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 12, 2022, 07:16:55 pm
I feel sorry for Crawf, top bloke, hasn't done much wrong, he would love to give live theatre a real crack.

But it appears the knives are out for him, and it's a lost cause he'll never get a fair hearing.

The arts terrorists have kyboshed his gig, despite some of the critics honestly reporting he was surprisingly good, in fact they reported far far better than they expected, the rest just want to kick an AFL footballer or open up a slot as a job for a mate, and Crawf doesn't fit the bill.

The footy supporting live arts community should blacklist the show, but Crawf wouldn't want that and it will only make things worse for him long term and hurt the rest of the crew that have worked so hard in rehearsals!

Some of these people happily tell the general public it's bigoted, homophobic or holds some other prejudice, and yet as they beg for inclusion with one hand they stab Crawf in the back with the other! What is it to be, inclusion or an eye for an eye?

Crawf probably needs to head interstate or OS to get a fair run at it!
I heard Crawf talk about the gig before it actually went 'live'.

He had MASSIVE reservations and didn't want to do it. He knows he "Can't sing" but they kept pumping him up to the point he said he'd at least give it a crack.

He said he was only going to do the Melbourne shows (and maybe.....Sydney(?)) and then reevaluate.

I've got no idea whereabouts he is within that run and if that remains true, but he certainly doesn't NEED to do it and is just giving it a crack for $h!ts and giggles.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on January 11, 2023, 02:09:55 pm
It's amazing how the dodgy Submarine deal done by Scomo has exposed the partisan nature of US Politics, we basically have two groups, one that is all for AUKUS sharing global power, policing and responsibility, and the other that is all for hoarding the resources.

Whether you are for or against AUKUS, one side of that debate is clearly untenable on a global scale!

Personally, I think Australia has no choice but to configure itself for it's own defence. Can you imagine relying on someone like Trump to come to your aid if he was positioned as the meat in a China / Australia sandwich? He'd sell you out faster than he could emit a COVID riddled sneeze. Australia being dependant on someone like Trump is not outside the realms of possibility!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on January 11, 2023, 04:44:54 pm
We are all at the mercy of the super powers.  If our interests run contrary to any others we are in trouble, unless we can do the enemy of enemy is my friend shuffle.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 11, 2023, 04:53:55 pm
We are all at the mercy of the super powers.  If our interests run contrary to any others we are in trouble, unless we can do the enemy of enemy is my friend shuffle.
There is a old Roman saying in Latin which when roughly translated says " If you want peace then prepare for War"........
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 26, 2023, 05:03:41 pm
I read the Green Scum run City of Yarra Council took the day off despite opposition to Australia Day. Parasites and hypocrites all rolled into one.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on January 27, 2023, 12:25:57 am
Hope you don't chastise Republicans for taking King's/Queens's bday, non-christians for taking Easter/Christmas, non-horseracing fans for Melbourne cup etc.

I don't give a rats about Australia day, never have, never will.  There is a jigoistic tone creeping into Australia and I am not a fan.  Got given tickets to the basketball the other day.  Phoenix v Wildcats.  The National anthem was sung - no idea why - it was just a h&a game.  Totally unnecessary.

I saw the start of the semi finals on TV - they were singing the National Anthem for a game of tennis.  I wondered why, but will give them grace as it is Australia day.  I'll be bemused if they play it before the semis tomorrow.

Don't get me wrong - we live in the a great country, I love it here, just don't need 'patriotism'.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on January 27, 2023, 08:45:42 am
Thinly veiled redneckism.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on January 27, 2023, 09:19:40 am


Hope you don't chastise Republicans for taking King's/Queens's bday, non-christians for taking Easter/Christmas, non-horseracing fans for Melbourne cup etc.

I don't give a rats about Australia day, never have, never will.  There is a jigoistic tone creeping into Australia and I am not a fan.  Got given tickets to the basketball the other day.  Phoenix v Wildcats.  The National anthem was sung - no idea why - it was just a h&a game.  Totally unnecessary.

I saw the start of the semi finals on TV - they were singing the National Anthem for a game of tennis.  I wondered why, but will give them grace as it is Australia day.  I'll be bemused if they play it before the semis tomorrow.

Don't get me wrong - we live in the a great country, I love it here, just don't need 'patriotism'.



We are a great country but you hate everything about us.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on January 27, 2023, 09:35:43 am
I don't give a rats about Australia day, never have, never will.  There is a jigoistic tone creeping into Australia and I am not a fan. 

Like anything else, there are probably a whole lot of levels of 'patriotism.'
And like other things it is usually the extreme levels that get highlighted.

What I suspect is occurring, and why it may seem to be more prominent, is a bit of a 'kick-back' from folks who are resentful of their traditional values and opinions being challenged.

People rarely change those.
They're pretty much entrenched by life experiences...(or lack of)
Challenging them either drives them underground or they hit back with enhanced expressions of 'patriotism'

Real progress occurs through generational change.
I consider myself pretty much middle of the road on most issues.
I'm a little bit more patriotic and conservative on some issues, very liberal on others.
I'm much less conservative, than my parents and their generation...but my own children are much more liberal than myself.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on January 27, 2023, 09:42:03 am
Not at all, NBB.  Am very lucky to have been born here.  If I hated it, I would go elsewhere.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on January 27, 2023, 10:54:36 am
I understand where dodge is coming from. You can reach a tipping point with nationalism where it becomes an ugly force. Australia is hardly alone is promoting this kind of low brow self exhalation. All countries do it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on January 27, 2023, 11:02:35 am
I can't think of too many countries that don't do it for at least some day or time of the year.

In the year 2525 when there is no race, religion, or nations...well, we'll probably have a whole lot of other problems to deal with...on the new planet.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on January 27, 2023, 12:10:13 pm
In the year 2525 when there is no race, religion, or nations...well, we'll probably have a whole lot of other problems to deal with...on the new planet.
If anybody thinks a new planet might make things better that best watch a series or two of The Expanse! ;D

In my opinion trouble is caused by social or political politics, usually with some underlying motivation, not typically by difference. Difference is just the label used to disguise motive.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on January 27, 2023, 12:51:25 pm
I can't think of too many countries that don't do it for at least some day or time of the year.

In the year 2525 when there is no race, religion, or nations...well, we'll probably have a whole lot of other problems to deal with...on the new planet.

If people didn't use race, religion etc., they would find something else. Paul Tillich once said that all institutions are inherently demonic, by which I think he means that all institutions are a mess, either at the start or some later point. And the reason they're a mess is because they have people in them, and people are a mess.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on January 27, 2023, 01:26:56 pm
I can't think of too many countries that don't do it for at least some day or time of the year.

In the year 2525 when there is no race, religion, or nations...well, we'll probably have a whole lot of other problems to deal with...on the new planet.

Zager and Evans send their regards.  :D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on January 27, 2023, 01:33:08 pm
I understand where dodge is coming from. You can reach a tipping point with nationalism where it becomes an ugly force. Australia is hardly alone is promoting this kind of low brow self exhalation. All countries do it.

I also get where Roger the Dodger is coming from. MBB old son, Dodge specified one area of this nation that concerned him... deeply - jingoism. Same thing concerns me. And as Principal LODS noted, patriotism is a spectrum, and most of us are probably where he is, in the middle - proud of our country but not oblivious or in denial of faults or very potential faults. Hard right patriotism is dangerous. Very dangerous.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on January 27, 2023, 01:36:22 pm
If people didn't use race, religion etc., they would find something else. Paul Tillich once said that all institutions are inherently demonic, by which I think he means that all institutions are a mess, either at the start or some later point. And the reason they're a mess is because they have people in them, and people are a mess.

Beat me to it, Pauly. When you have the controlling creatures of a planet (us - humans), and those creatures are fundamentally imperfect (to be polite) you can only expect varying degrees of, as you note, 'mess.' We spend most of our lives in damage control.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on January 27, 2023, 02:05:13 pm
As George Bernard Shaw wrote;

"The longer I live, the more convinced I am that this planet is used by other planets as a lunatic asylum."
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 27, 2023, 02:57:22 pm
Thinly veiled redneckism.
Yee haah
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on January 27, 2023, 05:16:28 pm
Yee haah

Shakes head… 🤣
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on January 27, 2023, 05:54:02 pm

We are a great country but you hate everything about us.

Are you happy with how Patriotic USA is?

Sing the national anthem at the drop of a hat. Old Glory spread across everything that will show it. They know every little redneck town with a population of over 100, but have no idea on where France is on a map....or any other country outside of Canada and Mexico.

While we are a fair way of that stage.....we are chasing their tail....as we do in everything it seems.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on January 27, 2023, 06:09:18 pm
Are you happy with how Patriotic USA is?

Sing the national anthem at the drop of a hat. Old Glory spread across everything that will show it. They know every little redneck town with a population of over 100, but have no idea on where France is on a map....or any other country outside of Canada and Mexico.

While we are a fair way of that stage.....we are chasing their tail....as we do in everything it seems.

We're headed in the opposite direction. In 20 years long after the date has been changed it will be "change the name".
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on January 27, 2023, 06:17:50 pm
We're headed in the opposite direction. In 20 years long after the date has been changed it will be "change the name".

What, back to New South Wales?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on January 27, 2023, 06:19:29 pm
What, back to New South Wales?

Works for me ;D  :D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on January 27, 2023, 06:35:29 pm
We're headed in the opposite direction. In 20 years long after the date has been changed it will be "change the name".
We have been following the US and worryingly so.
There are signs we are not starting to follow NZ and embracing our history....albeit at a snails pace.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on January 28, 2023, 11:20:30 pm
Is Australia day even that contentious? After all the posturing the first fleet sailed into botany Bay 6 days earlier.

Whilst the 26th is the first day the land was claimed for Brittain would the 20th be any less of an issue?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on January 30, 2023, 11:50:58 am
Simples … move it to a date outside the 20-26 Jan range. That’s the wisdom of Solomon right there.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on January 30, 2023, 12:09:25 pm
I gravely doubt the loudest of voices will be happy at all, no matter what date is chosen! ;)

The date/day is just a symbol that is currently being targeted, the loudest voices who are often also the most radical, don't want it moved they want it eradicated.

Do segments of the community really think the wider public is going to accept being subjected to and governed by the whims of a very small number of radicals?

So I have to conclude the lack of action to reel in the loud radicals is a sign real progress isn't the ultimate goal!

If those pushing for change are accepting the voice of the radicals in the short term, as some sort of utilitarian appliance to achieve a goal, then they may be sorely disappointed at the outcome of any referendum. Those tactics might well work in a region where voting is not compulsory, but here I doubt they have a chance! But then again, what should we expect when we keep hearing and seeing that protests discuss sovereignty and constitutional rights, issues copied straight off extremist US websites.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on January 30, 2023, 12:14:24 pm
On Anzac Day we celebrate a defeat that occurred when we attempted to invade another country.
A defeat that cost us around 600 soldiers on that first day.
A bit bizarre!
Yet we remember it with solemn services early in the morning, which lead into a bit of fun and frivolity after mid-day with a bit of sport and a lot of get togethers.

We just don't seem to be able to do the same with Australia day.
Use the first half of the day to remember and acknowledge the failings of the past, understand that for some indigenous people it's a day to remember and feel the sorrow
Make it a lot more thoughtful and reflective...and then move to the more celebratory aspects in the afternoon.

The funny thing is the Aboriginal 'theme' is quite prevalent through the day.
Indigenous performance is common in a lot of ceremonies.
Almost all begin with an acknowledgement of the Indigenous aspect of our history.
To me that makes the date a pretty good one.
It's not so  much the date but how we celebrate it and the thinking behind it.

But I realise that's not the case for all folks, so I've no real problem with a change of date.
The Queen's/King's birthday isn't actually on their birthday and is even different for different states.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on January 30, 2023, 12:23:31 pm
I gravely doubt the loudest of voices will be happy at all, no matter what date is chosen! ;)

The date/day is just a symbol that is currently being targeted, the most radical who are usually the loudest voices, don't want it moved they want it eradicated.

In fact, invasion day, or the national day of mourning, has been celebrated on 26 Jan for far longer than Australia Day has been on 26 Jan.  I suspect that most Indigenous Australians, “radical” or moderate, would want to continue commemorating 26 Jan, just not as Australia Day.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on January 30, 2023, 01:04:38 pm
In fact, invasion day, or the national day of mourning, has been celebrated on 26 Jan for far longer than Australia Day has been on 26 Jan.  I suspect that most Indigenous Australians, “radical” or moderate, would want to continue commemorating 26 Jan, just not as Australia Day.
I apologise for my cynicism but that very label, Invasion Day, is almost certainly a thinly veiled attempt by some to frame the groundwork for a legal compensation bid.

As far as I can tell, the protests, the mourning ceremonies, have very little to do with personal grief after so many generations and so much time has past! We celebrate Anzac Day and Armistice Day to remember, nobody is there protesting and calling for compensation.

I've stated this before, about a myriad of issues not just those in Australia, take the profit out of these disputes and you'll find only those people genuinely searching for reconciliation remain. Until then, I reserve the right to remain cynical.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on January 30, 2023, 05:30:12 pm
Step 1.
Change the date to something that can't be called Invasion day, but has some meaning to people, preferably indigenous people.

Step 2.
Change the name from Australia Day to Australian Appreciation Day and have a large part of those celebrations about indigenous side of things, while still allowing the yobbos to have a bbq.

The end.

No more complaints. No more division.
Start afresh.
There is very little reason to hold firm on the current day/date.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on January 30, 2023, 06:16:31 pm
'Australia' was actually born as a nation, and no longer a group of independent colonies, on January 1st, 1901. Seems a logical date for Australia Day. A day when all Australians, regardless of race/religion/colour or creed, can celebrate all that is Aussie AND all our roots.

For arguments sake, parades in all capital cities, major rural cities, with floats/representations/music from all those who make up 'Australia' - indigenous Aussies, English, Greeks, Italians, Irish, Scot, Japanese, Chines, Vietnamese, Indian, Pakistani, other various Asian countries... etc., etc. Acknowledging and respecting all.

 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on January 30, 2023, 06:36:54 pm
'Australia' was actually born as a nation, and no longer a group of independent colonies, on January 1st, 1901. Seems a logical date for Australia Day. A day when all Australians, regardless of race/religion/colour or creed, can celebrate all that is Aussie AND all our roots.

For arguments sake, parades in all capital cities, major rural cities, with floats/representations/music from all those who make up 'Australia' - indigenous Aussies, English, Greeks, Italians, Irish, Scot, Japanese, Chines, Vietnamese, Indian, Pakistani, other various Asian countries... etc., etc. Acknowledging and respecting all.

 
It'd be unaustralian to have the new australia day on an already public holiday. ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on January 30, 2023, 06:41:25 pm
'Australia' was actually born as a nation, and no longer a group of independent colonies, on January 1st, 1901. Seems a logical date for Australia Day. A day when all Australians, regardless of race/religion/colour or creed, can celebrate all that is Aussie AND all our roots.

For arguments sake, parades in all capital cities, major rural cities, with floats/representations/music from all those who make up 'Australia' - indigenous Aussies, English, Greeks, Italians, Irish, Scot, Japanese, Chines, Vietnamese, Indian, Pakistani, other various Asian countries... etc., etc. Acknowledging and respecting all.

 

But...but...but...the Holiday :o
It's already a Holiday. >:(

Of course it's the best date and makes the most sense.
We can always have a holiday on the 2nd.

You know one of the funny things about the 26th January is that it's logistically an excellent date.
End of school holidays.
A lot of people returning to work
A lot of Summer sports actually hold championships over that long weekend because that Christmas/ New year time a lot of people are away.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on January 30, 2023, 06:43:32 pm
They could do a lot of NFL fans a favour and make it Superbowl Sunday/Monday.
This year its 13th Feb.

Saves me asking for a day off every year. ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on January 30, 2023, 07:15:16 pm
I apologise for my cynicism but that very label, Invasion Day, is almost certainly a thinly veiled attempt by some to frame the groundwork for a legal compensation bid.

As far as I can tell, the protests, the mourning ceremonies, have very little to do with personal grief after so many generations and so much time has past! We celebrate Anzac Day and Armistice Day to remember, nobody is there protesting and calling for compensation.

I've stated this before, about a myriad of issues not just those in Australia, take the profit out of these disputes and you'll find only those people genuinely searching for reconciliation remain. Until then, I reserve the right to remain cynical.

Why do you always resort to the compensation line?

Look up William Cooper.  He’s the bloke who started the national day of mourning on 26 Jan 1938.  He’s also the bloke who led a delegation to the German consulate in 1938 to protest about the Nazi attacks on Jews.  Was he looking for compensation from Hitler?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on January 30, 2023, 08:07:38 pm
Why do you always resort to the compensation line?

Look up William Cooper.  He’s the bloke who started the national day of mourning on 26 Jan 1938.  He’s also the bloke who led a delegation to the German consulate in 1938 to protest about the Nazi attacks on Jews.  Was he looking for compensation from Hitler?
Highlighting the acts of the odd noble individual, or even the acts of the vast majority if they are conscientious, doesn't explain away the motives of a radical minority.

The problem for me is that some actions of a small minority do not seem to be consistent with the broader message, yet they happily hide amongst us.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on January 30, 2023, 08:35:46 pm
Highlighting the acts of the odd noble individual, or even the acts of the vast majority if they are conscientious, doesn't explain away the motives of a radical minority.

The problem for me is that some actions of a small minority do not seem to be consistent with the broader message, yet they happily hide amongst us.

LP, I know most of the so-called activists from Victoria and some from the other States and Territories.  They are straightforward, honest folk seeking nothing more than a more tolerant, accepting Australia.

If you had been paying attention, you would have heard very loud voices raised in opposition to the folk who hijacked the Change the Date protest; Lydia Thorpe’s mob.  As you may know, Lydia is opposed to the Voice because she claims sovereignty.  As my former boss said on the wireless last week, “Do they know what sovereignty means?”

It’s interesting that Lydia and Jacinta Price have reached a similar decision but from very different political persuasions.  And that just serves to illustrate that Indigenous Australians aren’t a homogenous group.  They have just as many opinions and beliefs as any other ethnic, cultural or sociopolitical group in Australia but with probably more of slant towards the conservative side.

Just who are these radicals that concern you LP?  And don’t suggest Adam Goodes 🙄
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 30, 2023, 09:35:44 pm
'Australia' was actually born as a nation, and no longer a group of independent colonies, on January 1st, 1901. Seems a logical date for Australia Day. A day when all Australians, regardless of race/religion/colour or creed, can celebrate all that is Aussie AND all our roots.

For arguments sake, parades in all capital cities, major rural cities, with floats/representations/music from all those who make up 'Australia' - indigenous Aussies, English, Greeks, Italians, Irish, Scot, Japanese, Chines, Vietnamese, Indian, Pakistani, other various Asian countries... etc., etc. Acknowledging and respecting all.

 
Baggers what occurred on the 1st of January 1901 stemmed from the happenings in the period between that date and 26th January 1788, there is no changing what occurred. As Lods said in reply #1351, its about how we celebrate it, the thoughts behind it and the learnings from it to ensure we are (or become) be better humans.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on January 30, 2023, 11:25:44 pm
Baggers what occurred on the 1st of January 1901 stemmed from the happenings in the period between that date and 26th January 1788, there is no changing what occurred. As Lods said in reply #1351, its about how we celebrate it, the thoughts behind it and the learnings from it to ensure we are (or become) be better humans.

In fact 26 Jan 1788 is just one small step in the process that led to the establishment of the Australian nation on 1 Jan 1901.  The arrival and successful colonisation of the continent by the first Australians 60-odd thousand years ago, the occupation of the Torres Strait islands by Melanesians around 8,000 years ago, the trading and trepanging voyages of the Macassans and the exploratory expeditions of the Dutch, French, Portuguese and English in the last 3-400 years are equally if not more important.

Then there’s the establishment of the free, non-convict, colonies in Victoria, South Australia and Western Australia … and those States refused to celebrate NSW’s foundation day as Australia Day for well over 100 years, longer in fact than Australia Day has been celebrated on 26 Jan.

The real “Australia Day” is 1 Jan … but we already have a public holiday and, as a nation, we’re not mature enough to celebrate our nationhood after a night watching fireworks 🙄

Governor Phillips’ instructions haven’t been found but there is a copy of a draft (or draught as it’s spelt).  It makes interesting reading, particularly the references to “Savages”, the use of force, and the assertion that the eastern part of the continent, from Cape York to South Cape,  was already an English possession, courtesy of James Cook’s actions 20 years previously.

The instruction to address the male-female imbalance by procuring females from neighbouring islands is interesting, if not directly relevant to the Australia Day debate.

Arthur Phillip fell out of a window of his house in Bath and died from the injuries he received.  He is buried in a churchyard on the outskirts of Bath and the church has a memorial to him.  I went there to pay my respects to a bloke who did a pretty good job under difficult circumstances … but he didn’t take possession of Australia or establish our nation.  He established a penal colony and worked hard to minimise harm to the Savages, or the Eora people as they prefer to be known.  However, Phillip set in motion a process that led to the dispossession of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, loss of language and culture and dramatic loss of life.

Estimates of the Aboriginal population of Victoria at the beginning of the 19th century vary considerably; from 25,000 to 100,000 or more.  What is indisputable is that by the end of the 19th century, the Aboriginal population was less than 800.  That’s as close as you get to genocide without actually achieving it.

Why not let Indigenous Australians commemorate invasion day and find a better day to celebrate an inclusive Australia? I march proudly on ANZAC Day to commemorate those who have served our nation but Indigenous Australians are told to get over the invasion of their land.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on January 31, 2023, 12:12:11 pm
In fact 26 Jan 1788 is just one small step in the process that led to the establishment of the Australian nation on 1 Jan 1901.  The arrival and successful colonisation of the continent by the first Australians 60-odd thousand years ago, the occupation of the Torres Strait islands by Melanesians around 8,000 years ago, the trading and trepanging voyages of the Macassans and the exploratory expeditions of the Dutch, French, Portuguese and English in the last 3-400 years are equally if not more important.

Then there’s the establishment of the free, non-convict, colonies in Victoria, South Australia and Western Australia … and those States refused to celebrate NSW’s foundation day as Australia Day for well over 100 years, longer in fact than Australia Day has been celebrated on 26 Jan.

The real “Australia Day” is 1 Jan … but we already have a public holiday and, as a nation, we’re not mature enough to celebrate our nationhood after a night watching fireworks 🙄

Governor Phillips’ instructions haven’t been found but there is a copy of a draft (or draught as it’s spelt).  It makes interesting reading, particularly the references to “Savages”, the use of force, and the assertion that the eastern part of the continent, from Cape York to South Cape,  was already an English possession, courtesy of James Cook’s actions 20 years previously.

The instruction to address the male-female imbalance by procuring females from neighbouring islands is interesting, if not directly relevant to the Australia Day debate.

Arthur Phillip fell out of a window of his house in Bath and died from the injuries he received.  He is buried in a churchyard on the outskirts of Bath and the church has a memorial to him.  I went there to pay my respects to a bloke who did a pretty good job under difficult circumstances … but he didn’t take possession of Australia or establish our nation.  He established a penal colony and worked hard to minimise harm to the Savages, or the Eora people as they prefer to be known.  However, Phillip set in motion a process that led to the dispossession of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, loss of language and culture and dramatic loss of life.

Estimates of the Aboriginal population of Victoria at the beginning of the 19th century vary considerably; from 25,000 to 100,000 or more.  What is indisputable is that by the end of the 19th century, the Aboriginal population was less than 800.  That’s as close as you get to genocide without actually achieving it.

Why not let Indigenous Australians commemorate invasion day and find a better day to celebrate an inclusive Australia? I march proudly on ANZAC Day to commemorate those who have served our nation but Indigenous Australians are told to get over the invasion of their land.

Can we have an additional public holiday?

If so im onboard.  One for invasion day commemoration, and another for the Australia Day celebration of the Australian Open victory?

Will fit right in to the long weekend nicely IMHO.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on January 31, 2023, 02:32:27 pm
Why do you always resort to the compensation line?
For the same reason that opponents of same sex marriage warned that the next step would be allowing people to marry children, animals, & inanimate objects and of course more than 2 people would marry in every possible number and combination. Even small changes will inevitably end up with the world going to hell in a hand basket. In fact, the only way to stop that decline is to turn the clock back to the 18th Century.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on January 31, 2023, 06:23:44 pm
Can we have an additional public holiday?

If so im onboard.  One for invasion day commemoration, and another for the Australia Day celebration of the Australian Open victory?

Will fit right in to the long weekend nicely IMHO.

Anything for another public holiday Thry?  :D

I was actually suggesting holding Australia Day on 1 Jan so we would lose a public holiday.  However, if it is to be genuine celebration of our nation, warts and all, the day should be free of other connections; May 8 springs to mind  ;)

I guess we could keep 26 Jan as a public holiday but make the focus on Indigenous Australia.  As others have pointed out, there's a fair bit of that already but it could be more positive.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on January 31, 2023, 06:32:13 pm
I was actually suggesting holding Australia Day on 1 Jan so we would lose a public holiday.  However, if it is to be genuine celebration of our nation, warts and all, the day should be free of other connections; May 8 springs to mind  ;)

May 8th works for me.
It's "World Donkey Day" and also "No Socks day"

We could go around in thongs and act like Donkeys....wait, we do that already on January 26th :D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on January 31, 2023, 07:12:27 pm
Anything for another public holiday Thry?  :D

I was actually suggesting holding Australia Day on 1 Jan so we would lose a public holiday.  However, if it is to be genuine celebration of our nation, warts and all, the day should be free of other connections; May 8 springs to mind  ;)

I guess we could keep 26 Jan as a public holiday but make the focus on Indigenous Australia.  As others have pointed out, there's a fair bit of that already but it could be more positive.

Not anything but like lods states in Melbourne jan 26 works really well and bookended  the weekend makes for an extra day camping and fishing.

Im against Australia day being moved in general but recognise that things are going to change eventually regardless of what we think.  We may as well adopt the aboriginal flag, call ourselves the Kulin nation and be done with it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on January 31, 2023, 10:29:46 pm
Not anything but like lods states in Melbourne jan 26 works really well and bookended  the weekend makes for an extra day camping and fishing.

Im against Australia day being moved in general but recognise that things are going to change eventually regardless of what we think.  We may as well adopt the aboriginal flag, call ourselves the Kulin nation and be done with it.

Kulin Nation is a group of five language groups from south-central Victoria.  And that’s why there’s no chance of Australia adopting an Indigenous name; the concept of one name for the continent is a European construct, beginning with Terra Australis before any Europeans had actually seen what they thought must be there.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on February 06, 2023, 01:02:40 pm
https://www.news.com.au/national/politics/lidia-thorpe-to-quit-greens-over-voice-differences-with-party/news-story/2475a258d5e677119ea9f956f30ebb31

Looks like the Greens are too right wing for Lidia ;)
(The party had actually reached an agreement with her to vote as she wished.)



Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 06, 2023, 10:25:30 pm
Just watching the remastered Pink Floyd concert, Earl's Court 1994, if you have never seen it do yourself a favour, probably deserves it's own thread.

Just too good.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Professer E on February 07, 2023, 08:20:35 am
The term "duplicitous" springs to mind.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on February 07, 2023, 10:16:57 am
Just watching the remastered Pink Floyd concert, Earl's Court 1994, if you have never seen it do yourself a favour, probably deserves it's own thread.

Just too good.

Topics often get swamped in this thread by other topics.
I've bumped up the 'Music' thread.
We may get a more sustained discussion in that thread without politics and social issues to distract.
(Although a lot of music is actually about social issues so there may be some crossover) ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 25, 2023, 06:59:13 pm
Hows this for sheer stupidity, bare with me for a moment.

Bell Street Level crossing removed at a cost of 100's of millions of dollars I would guess. This from the big build website:

The level crossings at Oakover Road, Bell Street, Cramer Street and Murray Road in Preston have been removed by elevating the Mernda Line over the 4 roads, and the new stations at Bell and Preston are now open.

We are working on the new open space underneath the rail bridge. A shared walking and cycling path from Oakover Road through to Murray Road will connect locals to the new stations and open spaces which will feature seating, play areas, BBQ facilities, amphitheatre, and native planting and will be ready for locals to enjoy in early 2023.

Around 82,000 vehicles passed through these former level crossings each day, where the boom gates were down for up to 40% of the morning peak



Note the bold bit. These farkwits have spent 100s of millions of dollars to remove a level crossing and replaced it with a pedestrian crossing? Are they farken mad? That will be fun in the morning and afternoon peak hours as people/cyclists press the button to cross Bell St...not.

There are pedestrian lights at High St 225m to the East and at St Geroges Road 225m to the West. There is also a major bike path on St Georges Road. But nah, lets put another shared path in and continue farking with drivers minds.

U N B E L I E V A B L E !


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 02, 2023, 01:54:05 pm
I see some person mocked Jesus on The Project which has caused some anger among the Christian community. I wonder if said person has the balls to mock an Islamic God on that high rating (lol) show. I suspect he'd be busy looking for safehouse the following
 day.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 02, 2023, 02:04:53 pm
But if he made racist jokes or put down other minorities, he’d be a hero to right wingers who would be outraged at cancel culture. Don’t tell me the defenders of the right to free speech are going to go all politically (religiously) correct and try to cancel a guy for telling a joke?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on March 02, 2023, 02:16:58 pm
I read the joke. At worst, insensitive, at best, clever (IMHO). I think Jesus would have had a chuckle.

Anyone outraged by that joke should avoid any stand-up from Jimmy Carr!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: tonyo on March 02, 2023, 02:52:33 pm
I read the joke. At worst, insensitive, at best, clever (IMHO). I think Jesus would have had a chuckle.

Anyone outraged by that joke should avoid any stand-up from Jimmy Carr!
Saw Jimmy Carr at Hamer Hall a couple of weeks ago - he is certainly on the edge at times!

Although I thought one of the best lines came from his SMS send-ins.....

"Don't bother getting a rescue cat - I got one for my Gran, but when she fell over in the garden the following day, the cat just sat there and did f*** all"
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on March 02, 2023, 02:59:38 pm
With any 'belief' or 'cause' there will always be a range of emotions connected to those things depending on how strongly and passionately folks believe in them.

In the case of religion some will have a chuckle at a joke directed at their religion, others will be incensed and outraged.
It all depends on the strength of feeling and that's a very personal thing.

So for the 'comedian' there is always going to be a case of 'did they go to far'.
But comedy has always been about 'pushing the edge'

The really funny thing is that some things that 'pushed the edge' thirty or forty years ago and would possibly have got you arrested, would seem tame by today's standards... and yet other subjects are now considered off limits.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on March 02, 2023, 03:32:07 pm
I see some person mocked Jesus on The Project which has caused some anger among the Christian community. I wonder if said person has the balls to mock an Islamic God on that high rating (lol) show. I suspect he'd be busy looking for safehouse the following
 day.

I read the joke. At worst, insensitive, at best, clever (IMHO). I think Jesus would have had a chuckle.

Anyone outraged by that joke should avoid any stand-up from Jimmy Carr!

Comparing that fool to Jimmy Carr LMAO.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 02, 2023, 03:33:32 pm
But if he made racist jokes or put down other minorities, he’d be a hero to right wingers who would be outraged at cancel culture. Don’t tell me the defenders of the right to free speech are going to go all politically (religiously) correct and try to cancel a guy for telling a joke?
So sometimes when the it suits, the "its only a joke guys" card is ok to play?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 02, 2023, 04:01:05 pm
Saw Jimmy Carr at Hamer Hall a couple of weeks ago - he is certainly on the edge at times!

Although I thought one of the best lines came from his SMS send-ins.....

"Don't bother getting a rescue cat - I got one for my Gran, but when she fell over in the garden the following day, the cat just sat there and did f*** all"

I was there too.  He is very much about pushing the envelope and doesn't pull his punches on anyone, and just when you think he has gone too far, he finds a way to go further.

Jimmy Carr will have a go at literally everyone, so ergo, his joke telling his fine. 



 

 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on March 02, 2023, 04:07:53 pm
Given the vitriol and hate that the LGBT community have faced, and continue to face, in large part from Christian groups, one could perhaps understand that some members of that community may fight back from time to time. To understand is not to condone, by the way.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on March 02, 2023, 04:11:42 pm
South Park is/was a pull no punches, nothing is off limits type of comedy.

They had huge controversy when they were making an episode depicting Muhammad. They had threats and things got serious. This was recently after the Danish newspaper depicted Muhammad got worldwide attention.

In the end South park had to sensor its own episode and remove depictions and voicing of Muhammed.....eventually those episodes got pulled from streaming services.

Funny thing is. They had an episode with Muhammad in it about 10 years earlier that didn't cause any backlash.

The first instance of cancel culture?

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on March 02, 2023, 04:19:41 pm
Comparing that fool to Jimmy Carr LMAO.

Not comparing comedians, comparing extremes that some will go to ::)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on March 02, 2023, 04:23:44 pm
Given the vitriol and hate that the LGBT community have faced, and continue to face, in large part from Christian groups, one could perhaps understand that some members of that community may fight back from time to time. To understand is not to condone, by the way.

Exactly the same thing occurred to me re certain religions, Pauly. The hypocrisy is breathtaking. Sadly, some religious groups are not joking with their attitudes/condemnations of anyone different to them.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on March 02, 2023, 04:25:06 pm
So sometimes when the it suits, the "its only a joke guys" card is ok to play?

That's right. Do you remember the defence of the Muslim AFLW player who refused to wear the pride top?
Christians = Hate
Muslim = Peace except when they bring down skyscrapers and blow people up. Just a joking, it's all fun.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on March 02, 2023, 04:26:45 pm


South Park is/was a pull no punches, nothing is off limits type of comedy.

They had huge controversy when they were making an episode depicting Muhammad. They had threats and things got serious. This was recently after the Danish newspaper depicted Muhammad got worldwide attention.

In the end South park had to sensor its own episode and remove depictions and voicing of Muhammed.....eventually those episodes got pulled from streaming services.

Funny thing is. They had an episode with Muhammad in it about 10 years earlier that didn't cause any backlash.

The first instance of cancel culture?



Have you watched Anthony Jeselnik?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 02, 2023, 05:10:56 pm
So sometimes when the it suits, the "its only a joke guys" card is ok to play?
It’s funny when the anti-PC and anti-Woke crowd get their knickers in a knot over “free speech”. The irony is that the right wingers have always been about suppressing free speech and yet they say that they are its protectors.

“Decency” and “respect” only limit attacks on their own sacrosanct concerns: the flag, the national anthem, our “betters”, our police, our military, capitalism (ooh, watch out for them Socialists!) and Christian values (and here we need to note that supposedly religious freedom is heat they’re on about except that only Christian religions are really worthy of respect). And whatever you do, don’t have a go at the military saluting the flag while the national anthem is playing!

I would have thought that decency and respect would mean we shouldn’t bully minorities. And yet the crucible of right-wing thought, the USA, is currently awash with legislation intended to harass minorities and ensure they aren’t treated as equals. There are “Don’t Say Gay” laws, laws banning gender affirming medical treatment, laws banning abortions, laws banning schools from teaching about the history of slavery, book banning where the books include non-CIS gendered characters.

The funny thing is right wingers supposedly want to keep government out of their lives. The smaller government is, the better. And yet they are the ones using government to regulate how others live their lives, even to the extent of prying into bedrooms to do it. So, don’t take our guns but make sure you take their rights. Nice one.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on March 02, 2023, 05:27:34 pm
Wow, wish I'd said that (pure hypocrisy) as succinctly as you did, Wingman MAV.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 02, 2023, 05:41:41 pm
I see some person mocked Jesus on The Project which has caused some anger among the Christian community. I wonder if said person has the balls to mock an Islamic God on that high rating (lol) show. I suspect he'd be busy looking for safehouse the following
 day.
I think the ratings tell you something about "the project" as a non quality show......they did a piece on ISIS brides wanting back to Aus at the end of last year that made me switch off for good.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 02, 2023, 06:27:59 pm
It’s funny when the anti-PC and anti-Woke crowd get their knickers in a knot over “free speech”. The irony is that the right wingers have always been about suppressing free speech and yet they say that they are its protectors.

“Decency” and “respect” only limit attacks on their own sacrosanct concerns: the flag, the national anthem, our “betters”, our police, our military, capitalism (ooh, watch out for them Socialists!) and Christian values (and here we need to note that supposedly religious freedom is heat they’re on about except that only Christian religions are really worthy of respect). And whatever you do, don’t have a go at the military saluting the flag while the national anthem is playing!

I would have thought that decency and respect would mean we shouldn’t bully minorities. And yet the crucible of right-wing thought, the USA, is currently awash with legislation intended to harass minorities and ensure they aren’t treated as equals. There are “Don’t Say Gay” laws, laws banning gender affirming medical treatment, laws banning abortions, laws banning schools from teaching about the history of slavery, book banning where the books include non-CIS gendered characters.

The funny thing is right wingers supposedly want to keep government out of their lives. The smaller government is, the better. And yet they are the ones using government to regulate how others live their lives, even to the extent of prying into bedrooms to do it. So, don’t take our guns but make sure you take their rights. Nice one.

So now its ok, purely because its Christian Right wingers who happen not to agree with your opinion?

Remember that thing about freedom of speech?  Its not free of reprisal, and shouting down those opposed to the joke now is the exact hypocrisy you are espousing.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 02, 2023, 07:01:58 pm
It has never been free of reprisal, as the right wing and conservative religious forces have shown us over the years. The thing that ticks them off is that there is no longer agreement that it’s their God-given right to decide who is cancelled. But never fear, the right wing still has a monopoly on playing the victim.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 02, 2023, 07:04:51 pm
It has never been free of reprisal, as the right wing and conservative religious forces have shown us over the years. The thing that ticks them off is that there is no longer agreement that it’s their God-given right to decide who is cancelled. But never fear, the right wing still has a monopoly on playing the victim.



No they don't.

This madness needs to end.

We start treating everyone with the respect they deserve, or we are no better than those who came before us.

This eye for an eye business is straight out of the old testament.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on March 02, 2023, 07:11:09 pm

Have you watched Anthony Jeselnik?
I had to look him up as i didn't recognise the name. He looks somewhat familiar but i can't recall what i've seen of him.

I started watching some Jim Jeffries a year or so ago after avoiding him for so long.
He is 'the gun control guy' who nailed that better than anyone before or since him. Doesn't mind going hard at 'supposedly sacred' factions.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 02, 2023, 07:31:43 pm
Thryleon, nice way to suggest we’re talking about violence here. We’re not. Or should I say the only violence mentioned was that of Muslims in retribution for jokes about Mohammad (yep, cancellation perpetrated by the religious). Was that what you meant by reprisals?

And just to clarify, are you saying there can be reprisals against those exercising free speech but there shouldn’t be reprisals to those reprisals? I’d have to say you haven’t made your position clear.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 02, 2023, 08:56:48 pm
I think the ratings tell you something about "the project" as a non quality show......they did a piece on ISIS brides wanting back to Aus at the end of last year that made me switch off for good.

Its utter puss EB, don't watch it. Just read about the story and found it all very interesting.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 02, 2023, 09:01:38 pm
It’s funny when the anti-PC and anti-Woke crowd get their knickers in a knot over “free speech”. The irony is that the right wingers have always been about suppressing free speech and yet they say that they are its protectors.

“Decency” and “respect” only limit attacks on their own sacrosanct concerns: the flag, the national anthem, our “betters”, our police, our military, capitalism (ooh, watch out for them Socialists!) and Christian values (and here we need to note that supposedly religious freedom is heat they’re on about except that only Christian religions are really worthy of respect). And whatever you do, don’t have a go at the military saluting the flag while the national anthem is playing!

I would have thought that decency and respect would mean we shouldn’t bully minorities. And yet the crucible of right-wing thought, the USA, is currently awash with legislation intended to harass minorities and ensure they aren’t treated as equals. There are “Don’t Say Gay” laws, laws banning gender affirming medical treatment, laws banning abortions, laws banning schools from teaching about the history of slavery, book banning where the books include non-CIS gendered characters.

The funny thing is right wingers supposedly want to keep government out of their lives. The smaller government is, the better. And yet they are the ones using government to regulate how others live their lives, even to the extent of prying into bedrooms to do it. So, don’t take our guns but make sure you take their rights. Nice one.
So I am right wing and have my knickers in a knot, ok then.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 02, 2023, 09:12:16 pm
I’m happy to accept your assurances you aren’t, if that’s what you’re saying.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 02, 2023, 09:44:36 pm
Thryleon, nice way to suggest we’re talking about violence here. We’re not. Or should I say the only violence mentioned was that of Muslims in retribution for jokes about Mohammad (yep, cancellation perpetrated by the religious). Was that what you meant by reprisals?

And just to clarify, are you saying there can be reprisals against those exercising free speech but there shouldn’t be reprisals to those reprisals? I’d have to say you haven’t made your position clear.
You've assumed poorly.


you seem to think that perpetuating the same ethical errors are ok, because the context is different.

Eye for an eye means that it's not ok to bag out others because it had been done historically.


The person who stated the joke about Jesus being nailed has rightly or wrongly set themselves up for a back lash and its warranted.  Poking fun at someone being crucified is a bit of kicking a man whilst he's down and in poor taste if nothing else.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 02, 2023, 09:55:23 pm
I’m happy to accept your assurances you aren’t, if that’s what you’re saying.
Mav here's where I'm coming from, make of it what you will. Sometimes I think my wording and how I articulate my point fails me miserably.
- I can't tolerate general stupidity, as a society I think we are generally dumber these days (e.g. see my post about the level crossing removal).
- I care about sustainability, the land, the environment and the people that rely on all three (e.g First Nations peoples, our famers etc). I'm convinced that all the governments/political parties in this country are incapable of caring and properly managing any of those items.
- I like to use the outdoors ie 4wd, camp, hunt and fish. I do this following all the rules and sustainably. I'm convinced all governments/political parties in this country are incapable of managing these activities properly (there's pattern forming).
- I can't tolerate double standards, treat everyone equally and fairly and the world will be a better and more peaceful place.
For example, I can't stand the use of the N word, ever under any circumstances, it's abhorrent. But I also can't stand it when African Americans use it jokingly or as part of their vernacular. Educate, lead and set the example, if you don't want people to use that word, dont you use it, ever. I remember a lesson my father taught when I used the word "wog" once  as part of my vernicular. He absolutely roasted me and said "son, if you dont like being called a wog, dont use the word ever, set the example and call it out when its used". Similarly, First Nations peoples often use the word "black fella". I was always taught its a derogatory term and should never be used. So I say to our First Nations peoples, educate by setting the example, dont use the term and call it out when it is. If not, its hypocritical in my book.
What I found interesting about the comments on The Project was along similar lines as above. The LBGTI community is fighting the good fight for equality. So again I say stay classy, educate, be consistent in your messaging  and the fight will be won (the right way). Don't fuel the fire by making the divide between groups bigger, its unnecessary and unproductive.

My interests and ideals are wide ranging and diverse (sometime they appear conflicting), but generally, I live a really simple, peaceful life and I think the key to it is being respectful towards people, property, land, country and environment at all times. It's not that hard, or is it?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 02, 2023, 10:02:44 pm
The person who stated the joke about Jesus being nailed has rightly or wrongly set themselves up for a back lash and it’s warranted.  Poking fun at someone being crucified is a bit of kicking a man whilst he's down and in poor taste if nothing else.
A comedian might ask, “2000 years … too soon?”
Title: Re: General Discussion
Post by: Mav on March 02, 2023, 10:53:48 pm
I generally agree with you, GIC. I probably wouldn’t have gone where that comedian did but then again I’m not much of a comedian. I think the joke wasn’t an attack on Christianity but witty wordplay around “nailed”. It didn’t imply anything homoerotic regarding Jesus or even doubt his existence (and Jimmy Carr’s jokes about religion do suggest there’s no God). I don’t think it crossed any line although it was easy to foresee the outrage machine cranking up.

The funny thing is that the comedian wouldn’t be worried by the backlash as I doubt devout Christians would attend his shows other than to protest. The joke he told was in response to the observation that he was getting hate from Christians anyway. As for The Project, I wouldn’t care a fig if it’s taken off air immediately.

Have a look at a debate on YouTube involving John Cleese, Michael Palin, Malcolm Muggeridge and an Anglican Bishop over The Life of Brian. The latter 2 were convinced it was blasphemous and on top of that the Bishop used his finely-honed comedic sensibilities to point out that the film just wasn’t funny.

In the past, blasphemy laws criminalised anything that might offend the staunchly religious. Thankfully, that is now a thing of the past and irreligious comments or humour are allowed. When Ghandi was filmed, Richard Attenborough was told by Hindus that he should only depict Ghandi as a moving point of light and having Ben Kingsley play him was an outrage. And of course the Charlie Hebdo killings show how far religious fundamentalists can go. In my opinion, allowing the religious to claim a special immunity from outrage is a dangerous precedent.

I am more open than you to minorities co-opting slurs as that helps to neutralise them. Nick Giannopoulos worked such a slur in the title of all his shows and it could be argued he helped take the sting out of it. But I’d never use it myself. The same thing applies to the N word. I have no sympathy for racists in the US arguing that this co-opting gives them the right to use it as a racial taunt or somehow encourages them to do so.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 02, 2023, 11:45:10 pm
A comedian might ask, “2000 years … too soon?”

Maybe.

It depends.  Would you respond in kind to similar jokes?

Personally, I dont think it right to make fun of the crucifixion.

There was a piece of art called the pi55 christ.  To me it spoke to me on an artistic level and summarised the view society has on religion in general.  Made me feel sad.  There is this facet of humanity that irritates me the most, its how people feel the need to rain on others parade or put them down in order to feel better about themselves. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on March 03, 2023, 12:10:08 am
I'm guessing, like a lot of things, that 'outrage' is something that manifests itself to various degrees and we have to be careful with generalisations.
A lot of the arguments are based around the 'extreme'...right wing nut jobs, religious terrorists.
They're not really the masses.

I'm pretty sure that there would be many christian folk who would probably have regarded the joke as unfunny (I know a few who probably would have had a chuckle)...but that would be the extent of their outrage.
At the extreme end of the scale there would be some that would be incensed.

Here's the dilemma...
At the basis of a lot of comedy is the exaggeration and stereotyping of individuals, groups and situations.
We can make the argument that many groups  have been the target of 'poor' jokes in the past.
Why shouldn't they get the opportunity to hit back, in a similar fashion, at what they might regard as strange, even absurd beliefs?
The thing is that those old racial and sexual barbs had a sting.
They were often hurtful to the targets.
Now what might seem to be a pretty inoffensive religious quip to us might carry a bit of extra sting to someone who regards their faith as important.
The degree of hurt may vary considerably from individual to individual....from mild dismissal to rage.

Which leaves us with a couple of ethical questions.
Is it OK that a comedic attack on a belief or way of life is justified because the followers of that belief have previously enjoyed humour at the expense of another's beliefs or way of life?
The pandora's box that flows from that is...where do you draw the line with comedy and is that line constantly moving?
Who decides which groups have to 'grin and bear it.'?
How does comedy survive the constant need to change and reinvent itself, or do we just sanitise the lot?


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 03, 2023, 01:16:31 am
Have a look at the debate I mentioned above. That took place in about 1979. And here we are 44 years later considering the same claim that the crucifixion should be beyond jokes and such jokes can’t be funny. I thought that had been pretty clearly disproved 44 years ago. Sadly for Malcolm Muggeridge, the film is regarded as one of the best comedy films of all time.

Strangely enough, this recent joke did not mock any aspect of Christianity or Christian beliefs whereas The Life of Brian was banned by several local councils in the UK and countries such as Norway and Italy on the grounds it did so.

The Producers was released in 1967, written and directed by Mel Brooks and the leads were Gene Wilder and Zero Mostel. All Jews. And they were in a film with a song called Springtime for Hitler (“Don’t be stupid, be a smarty, come and join the Nazi Party”). And that just over 2 decades after the Holocaust. Daring humour, but funny. Let’s not forget Jerry Seinfeld’s scandal over pashing a girl during Schindler’s List.

Yeah, I’m thinking that taking offence at humour that alludes to a crucifixion 2000 years ago but actually goes sideways from there is a bit OTT. And that applies to the humour of Monty Python and also the gay comedian.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on March 03, 2023, 07:40:23 am
Our level of outrage is probably determined by our beliefs and values.
If you don't have a lot of time for religion and specifically the Christian faith you would probably consider outrage at the project joke is over the top.
I had a look at it and it made me smile...that was the extent of my reaction.
Mild amusement.
But if I was more invested in the faith my reaction would probably have been very different.
It's not one size fits all and it's complicated and enhanced by individuals like 'shock jocks' who use the outrage to push their own agendas.

As I've mentioned previously at the heart of a lot of comedy is taking real life situations or individuals and making subtle changes or complete exaggerations to create a comedic scenario or alternative reality.

I like the 'Life of Brian'...the "Biggus Dickus" scenes are some of the funniest bits I've ever seen.
But Brian isn't Jesus.
If the movie had been the "Life of Jesus" how would it have gone down.

"The Producers" doesn't glorify the Nazi Party it mocks it.
It was a way Brooks and his mates could fight back, albeit years later, and ridicule that regime and its ideology.
The only ones who would have been truly offended by singing, dancing Nazi's in a chorus line would have been... a Nazi.
But it was an edgy, risky idea...that just happened to come off.
That's what comedy is.
Push the boundaries.
You'll please some folks and find an audience but you will understandably upset others.







 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 03, 2023, 08:22:03 am
Apparently, the initial reaction to The Producers was hardly uniform hilarity. But it grew on people. I’d have to admit when I saw it the first time, on TV, I was so disgusted I switched it off. Oddly enough, though, it was the first scene that did me in where Zero Mostel is busy seducing a string of rich 90 year old women who were very much up for it. Someone must have told me to take a second look and I’m glad I did.

I wonder if a staunch Christian had the ability to ban 1 joke, would it be the one on The Project or this one from Jimmy Carr:
Quote
When I was a kid, I had an imaginary friend and I used to think that he went everywhere with me, that I could talk to him and he'd hear me and grant me wishes and stuff. And then I grew up - and I stopped going to church.
Which one actually mocks Christianity?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on March 03, 2023, 09:07:56 am
Which one actually mocks Christianity?
No mention of Christianity in that joke.
Plenty of different 'churches' around.
Maybe it was a dig at scientology?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 03, 2023, 09:17:35 am
Hmmm … I wonder what Church an English lad with Irish relatives would have gone to? I’m guessing it wasn’t the “Church” of Scientology. But you’re right that the joke mocks many religions. More importantly, it also mocks the religious. He attacked the followers a bit more directly with this one:
Quote
Saying that you don't believe in magic but do believe in God is a bit like saying you don't have sex with dogs, except Labradors.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 03, 2023, 10:43:21 am
The Project declares jokes about Jesus are off limits. Are we okay with that? The Age. (https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=newssearch&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjPxcDqtb79AhVLxjgGHXX5CbwQxfQBKAB6BAgHEAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theage.com.au%2Fculture%2Ftv-and-radio%2Fthe-project-declared-jokes-about-jesus-are-off-limits-are-we-okay-with-that-20230302-p5cows.html&usg=AOvVaw1gJWR3Cw76Hk4P9mNXiPBn)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 03, 2023, 11:37:41 am
The Project declares jokes about Jesus are off limits. Are we okay with that? The Age. (https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=newssearch&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjPxcDqtb79AhVLxjgGHXX5CbwQxfQBKAB6BAgHEAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theage.com.au%2Fculture%2Ftv-and-radio%2Fthe-project-declared-jokes-about-jesus-are-off-limits-are-we-okay-with-that-20230302-p5cows.html&usg=AOvVaw1gJWR3Cw76Hk4P9mNXiPBn)
I read with interest today where Em Rusciano (has appeared on the project in the past) reckons the producers threw that comedian under the bus. She reckons the show (and all the jokes) are heavily scripted so its them that are probably to blame here.
In any case, isn't the general rule that if someone is hurt by comments, therefore the comments are not ok? So the person who makes it, owns it, aplogises and we move on.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 03, 2023, 11:57:07 am
This is where the difference between punching up and punching down comes in. However much some Christians might see themselves as some put upon minority, the Church still has considerable power (as The Project’s backdown amply demonstrates). And with Christian Nationalism creating problems overseas, I don’t want to see them getting more political power over here.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on March 03, 2023, 12:18:46 pm
This is where the difference between punching up and punching down comes in. However much some Christians might see themselves as some put upon minority, the Church still has considerable power (as The Project’s backdown amply demonstrates). And with Christian Nationalism creating problems overseas, I don’t want to see them getting more political power over here.

But the 'Church' isn't one entity...it's dozens of different branches.
Some more influential than others
Some more moderate than others.
Some quite 'evil' in their past dealings.
And they don't always see eye to eye.
There are  Christians killing Christians in Ukraine at the moment.

My religious acquaintances are quite liberal and moderate in their thinking.
They vote Labor and even Green in some cases, they supported the same sex-marriage vote, and other equality causes.
They don't take extreme positions, but keep their faith and attend church and try to live their lives as good folks.

They would hardly have batted an eyelid over the project joke.
I suspect that outrage was more driven by the Andrew Bolts and Paul Murrays of the world.

Minorities have been oppressed, derided and joked about in the past.
But decency and respect isn't just the right of the minority.
It should be for everyone.

I suspect Jesus would have been more at home at Woodstock than in a church.
(The music's better)


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 03, 2023, 12:39:52 pm
This is where the difference between punching up and punching down comes in. However much some Christians might see themselves as some put upon minority, the Church still has considerable power (as The Project’s backdown amply demonstrates). And with Christian Nationalism creating problems overseas, I don’t want to see them getting more political power over here.

Arent minorities a minority irrespective?

The most dominant form of religion in Australia according to the census is Atheism.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 03, 2023, 12:49:56 pm
I was thinking of the Ukraine war when I referenced Christian Nationalists. Patriarch Kirill, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, is a huge supporter of Putin’s war. And the fact that Putin heads a Christian Nationalist government is what makes it hard for right-wingers in the US to regard Putin as an enemy. They love that he’s turned his government into a dictatorship and would love Trump to emulate him. It’ll be interesting to see if the Trumpists now in control of the House will be able to cut off the financial support offered to Ukraine.

What I know is that people are deluded if they expect the right wingers will accept a rule where no person should be joked about or oppressed. You acknowledge that it’s not moderate Christians who are behind the backlash - it’s the Bolts and Murrays. They’re quite happy to defend the rights of right wingers to their freedom of speech or more accurately their right to harass and humiliate those they wish to other. They condemn the Politically Correct or the Woke who stand in their way. But whenever they can act like snowflakes and claim their constituencies are being offended, they play the victim. Returning to an earlier point, it makes my blood boil when the political correctness card is played because, as we’ve seen, it only applies to left wingers not right whingers. I for one won’t fall for the nonsense about needing to stand against anything that might offend as I know there will be no reciprocation from the right. If the right wing wants to carve out sacred institutions that are beyond the reach of satire or humour, they’ll do it without me.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 03, 2023, 12:55:06 pm
Arent minorities a minority irrespective?

The most dominant form of religion in Australia according to the census is Atheism.


Yep. I can’t understand why the Apartheid regime in South Africa was subject to so much vitriol. After all, the whites were a minority. We should have been as supportive as we are of gays etc. The fact that they were the ones in power and felt no compunction over harming the majority shouldn’t matter, should it?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 03, 2023, 02:29:22 pm
Arent minorities a minority irrespective?

The most dominant form of religion in Australia according to the census is Atheism.

Atheism isn't a religion and the largest religious affiliation in Australia is Christianity at 43.9%.  38.9% of Australians have no religion while 3.2% are Muslims, 2.7% are Hindus and 2.4% are Buddhists.  Judaism accounts for 0.4% of the population.

If the trend continues, and there's no reason why it shouldn't, most Australians will have no religion by the next census, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism and other small religions will grow slightly and Christianity will decline further.  This trend is terrifying for the fundamentalist Christians who are re-doubling their efforts to take control of the Liberal Party.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 03, 2023, 03:55:19 pm
Yep. I can’t understand why the Apartheid regime in South Africa was subject to so much vitriol. After all, the whites were a minority. We should have been as supportive as we are of gays etc. The fact that they were the ones in power and felt no compunction over harming the majority shouldn’t matter, should it?
Not exactly working brilliantly in South Africa is it?...George Orwell would tell you the farmers(white minority) are gone and the animals(majority coloured population) are in charge and things are worse.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/mandelas-dream-for-south-africa-is-in-ruins.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 03, 2023, 04:03:00 pm
So they’ve wasted all of the effort that the whites put into preparing the blacks to take over the running of the country.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 03, 2023, 04:54:31 pm
So they’ve wasted all of the effort that the whites put into preparing the blacks to take over the running of the country.
Point is that political power is always used the same way, whoever has it regardless of colour, ideology etc.....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 03, 2023, 05:03:03 pm
Mav here's where I'm coming from, make of it what you will. Sometimes I think my wording and how I articulate my point fails me miserably.
- I can't tolerate general stupidity, as a society I think we are generally dumber these days (e.g. see my post about the level crossing removal).
- I care about sustainability, the land, the environment and the people that rely on all three (e.g First Nations peoples, our famers etc). I'm convinced that all the governments/political parties in this country are incapable of caring and properly managing any of those items.
- I like to use the outdoors ie 4wd, camp, hunt and fish. I do this following all the rules and sustainably. I'm convinced all governments/political parties in this country are incapable of managing these activities properly (there's pattern forming).
- I can't tolerate double standards, treat everyone equally and fairly and the world will be a better and more peaceful place.
For example, I can't stand the use of the N word, ever under any circumstances, it's abhorrent. But I also can't stand it when African Americans use it jokingly or as part of their vernacular. Educate, lead and set the example, if you don't want people to use that word, dont you use it, ever. I remember a lesson my father taught when I used the word "wog" once  as part of my vernicular. He absolutely roasted me and said "son, if you dont like being called a wog, dont use the word ever, set the example and call it out when its used". Similarly, First Nations peoples often use the word "black fella". I was always taught its a derogatory term and should never be used. So I say to our First Nations peoples, educate by setting the example, dont use the term and call it out when it is. If not, its hypocritical in my book.
What I found interesting about the comments on The Project was along similar lines as above. The LBGTI community is fighting the good fight for equality. So again I say stay classy, educate, be consistent in your messaging  and the fight will be won (the right way). Don't fuel the fire by making the divide between groups bigger, its unnecessary and unproductive.

My interests and ideals are wide ranging and diverse (sometime they appear conflicting), but generally, I live a really simple, peaceful life and I think the key to it is being respectful towards people, property, land, country and environment at all times. It's not that hard, or is it?

We have a lot in common G2C, and not just our love of the mighty Blues  :)

I coached an under 14 boys' basketall team that had one African boy, one Melanesian boy, one Polynesian boy (whose younger brother was stabbed to death the following year) and three white kids.  They were a handful, but they could play and we ended up narrowly losing the A grade grand final against what was essentially a first division rep team.  The three boys of colour would often use the 'n' word, but not when their parents were around.  Hopefully, they are a little smarter and more respectful now.

Anyway, the point that I really wanted to make is that "black fella" or blekpela is not a derogatory term and has been used by Indigenous Australians to denote themselves since "white fellas" arrived on the scene.  I used to be reluctant to use it but I learned that it is often the preferred term, particularly when the subjects don't have a name that's easily rendered in English or when members of several groups are referred to collectively. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_DHwp5vYBI
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 03, 2023, 09:52:19 pm
I was thinking of the Ukraine war when I referenced Christian Nationalists. Patriarch Kirill, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, is a huge supporter of Putin’s war. And the fact that Putin heads a Christian Nationalist government is what makes it hard for right-wingers in the US to regard Putin as an enemy. They love that he’s turned his government into a dictatorship and would love Trump to emulate him. It’ll be interesting to see if the Trumpists now in control of the House will be able to cut off the financial support offered to Ukraine.

What I know is that people are deluded if they expect the right wingers will accept a rule where no person should be joked about or oppressed. You acknowledge that it’s not moderate Christians who are behind the backlash - it’s the Bolts and Murrays. They’re quite happy to defend the rights of right wingers to their freedom of speech or more accurately their right to harass and humiliate those they wish to other. They condemn the Politically Correct or the Woke who stand in their way. But whenever they can act like snowflakes and claim their constituencies are being offended, they play the victim. Returning to an earlier point, it makes my blood boil when the political correctness card is played because, as we’ve seen, it only applies to left wingers not right whingers. I for one won’t fall for the nonsense about needing to stand against anything that might offend as I know there will be no reciprocation from the right. If the right wing wants to carve out sacred institutions that are beyond the reach of satire or humour, they’ll do it without me.

You do know that Ukraine are effectively Christian too right?

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on March 04, 2023, 12:34:46 am
We have a lot in common G2C, and not just our love of the mighty Blues  :)

I coached an under 14 boys' basketall team that had one African boy, one Melanesian boy, one Polynesian boy (whose younger brother was stabbed to death the following year) and three white kids.  They were a handful, but they could play and we ended up narrowly losing the A grade grand final against what was essentially a first division rep team.  The three boys of colour would often use the 'n' word, but not when their parents were around.  Hopefully, they are a little smarter and more respectful now.

Anyway, the point that I really wanted to make is that "black fella" or blekpela is not a derogatory term and has been used by Indigenous Australians to denote themselves since "white fellas" arrived on the scene.  I used to be reluctant to use it but I learned that it is often the preferred term, particularly when the subjects don't have a name that's easily rendered in English or when members of several groups are referred to collectively. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_DHwp5vYBI

I’m one who has on here who has often referred to Aboriginals as “Black fellas”
However some Blackfellas prefer to be called “Countrymen” I’m ok with that.

As a rule I’m politically incorrect, but I try to be respectful to individuals depending on how they present.
But I don’t do welcome to country…  tokenism at its worst.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 04, 2023, 07:56:34 am
Of course I do, Thryleon. But I suspect you’re reading Christian Nationalism as a simple conjunction of an adjective and a noun. It’s actually a political descriptor. Here’s the Wikipedia entry (and of course insofar as it relates to Russia we have to remember that partisans can modify text):

Quote
Christian nationalism is Christianity-affiliated religious nationalism.[1] Christian nationalists primarily focus on internal politics, such as passing laws that reflect their view of Christianity and its role in political and social life. In countries with a state Church, Christian nationalists, in seeking to preserve the status of a Christian state, uphold an antidisestablishmentarian position.[2][3][4]

Christian nationalists support the presence of Christian symbols and statuary in the public square, as well as state patronage for the display of religion, such as school prayer and the exhibition of nativity scenes during Christmastide or the Christian Cross on Good Friday.[5][6]

Christian nationalists draw support from the broader Christian right.[7]


Russia[edit]
President of Russia Vladimir Putin has been described as a global leader of the Christian nationalist and Christian right movements.[26][27] As President, Putin has increased the power of the Russian Orthodox Church and proclaimed his staunch belief in Eastern Orthodoxy,[28] as well as maintaining close contacts with Patriarchs of Moscow and all Rus' Alexy II and Kirill.

The Russian Imperial Movement is a prominent neo-Nazi Christian nationalist group that trains militants all over Europe and has recruited thousands of fighters for its paramilitary group, the Imperial Legion, which is participating in the war on Ukraine. The group also works with the Atomwaffen Division in order to network with and recruit extremists from the United States.[29][30]
France is a very Christian country (with a much smaller Muslim population drawn predominantly from Algeria. But the French also practice staunch separation of Church and State and react swiftly to any display of religious iconography in public spaces. That extended to banning the burquini from beaches which created a bit of a furore.



Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on March 04, 2023, 07:59:05 am
The Project declares jokes about Jesus are off limits. Are we okay with that? The Age. (https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=newssearch&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjPxcDqtb79AhVLxjgGHXX5CbwQxfQBKAB6BAgHEAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theage.com.au%2Fculture%2Ftv-and-radio%2Fthe-project-declared-jokes-about-jesus-are-off-limits-are-we-okay-with-that-20230302-p5cows.html&usg=AOvVaw1gJWR3Cw76Hk4P9mNXiPBn)

Interesting that the project would go with that course of action.

There are 'Jesus jokes' and there are 'Jesus jokes'.
Back in the 70's (so the story goes), when Peter Hudson was at the peak of his powers a local minister put on his sign at the front of the church.

"What would you do if Christ came to Hawthorn?"
 Someone had written underneath...
"Move Hudson to Centre Half Forward."
I guess back in the day that still would have upset a few folks but...
The implication was that Christ was greater than Hudson....even at football.

On the other hand we have this project joke (told by a guy in drag make up...important only because of some questions I'll put later) that seeks to link the suffering in arguably the most painful and drawn out method of execution with sexual gratification.

It triggers a lot of people.
One joke glorifies Jesus, the other not so much.... but it appears the ban is an all encompassing one. (I can't see the article).

Lot's of layers in this.
Would a joke like this have gone differently with prominent figures in other religions?
(I think we can safely guess there would have been outrage in Islam).
Had the teller of the joke been more famous, like a Ru Paul, would the outrage have been greater or less?
What if the teller wasn't dressed in drag make-up?
Where did the main anger and outrage come from...churches, shock jocks the general public?
Is the response something of a case of an opportunity to hit back at what some see as the "woke" culture? ( a push back against the push)?





Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 04, 2023, 10:54:28 am
I guess the joke means different things to different people. I never regarded it as an allusion to S&M sex or torture. To me, it played with “nailed” having the literal meaning and a secondary meaning of being f*cked. He was saying he loves a guy he can nail for 3 days solid who will come back for more. And he was marrying that up with Jesus being nailed on the cross for 3 days. I didn’t take that as suggesting Jesus was gay or had been “nailed” in the secondary sense. It was just an absurd play on words which worked by subverting expectations. I’m sure he enjoyed tweaking the tail of his homophobic critics but I don’t see the joke as attacking Christianity or Christians. On the other hand, Jimmy Carr’s jokes flat out say religion is just fantasy and magical thinking. You’d think they’d be seen as a far more serious insult.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on March 04, 2023, 11:34:55 am
I guess the joke means different things to different people. I never regarded it as an allusion to S&M sex or torture. To me, it played with “nailed” having the literal meaning and a secondary meaning of being f*cked. He was saying he loves a guy he can nail for 3 days solid who will come back for more. And he was marrying that up with Jesus being nailed on the cross for 3 days. I didn’t take that as suggesting Jesus was gay or had been “nailed” in the secondary sense. It was just an absurd play on words which worked by subverting expectations. I’m sure he enjoyed tweaking the tail of his homophobic critics but I don’t see the joke as attacking Christianity or Christians. On the other hand, Jimmy Carr’s jokes flat out say religion is just fantasy and magical thinking. You’d think they’d be seen as a far more serious insult.

I probably didn't phrase part of that well.
'Link' was probably not the right word.
There's no suggestion of S&M
I saw it exactly as you suggested, a play on the word 'nailed'.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on March 04, 2023, 01:40:02 pm
I guess the joke means different things to different people. I never regarded it as an allusion to S&M sex or torture. To me, it played with “nailed” having the literal meaning and a secondary meaning of being f*cked. He was saying he loves a guy he can nail for 3 days solid who will come back for more. And he was marrying that up with Jesus being nailed on the cross for 3 days. I didn’t take that as suggesting Jesus was gay or had been “nailed” in the secondary sense. It was just an absurd play on words which worked by subverting expectations. I’m sure he enjoyed tweaking the tail of his homophobic critics but I don’t see the joke as attacking Christianity or Christians. On the other hand, Jimmy Carr’s jokes flat out say religion is just fantasy and magical thinking. You’d think they’d be seen as a far more serious insult.

The Project is on about 6:30 right?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 04, 2023, 03:58:41 pm
Of course I do, Thryleon. But I suspect you’re reading Christian Nationalism as a simple conjunction of an adjective and a noun. It’s actually a political descriptor. Here’s the Wikipedia entry (and of course insofar as it relates to Russia we have to remember that partisans can modify text):
France is a very Christian country (with a much smaller Muslim population drawn predominantly from Algeria. But the French also practice staunch separation of Church and State and react swiftly to any display of religious iconography in public spaces. That extended to banning the burquini from beaches which created a bit of a furore.





Right and what type of separation of church and state do Ukraine practice?

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 04, 2023, 04:53:32 pm
You need to do a bit of research on your own about Christian Nationalism, Thryleon. It’s not simply Nationalists putting up a few crosses.

Take a look at this article: Religious nationalism and the invasion of Ukraine (https://religionnews.com/2022/02/28/religious-nationalism-and-the-invasion-of-ukraine/), religion news.com.

Quote
“I think the president of Russian Federation is making it a religious war,” Archbishop Daniel of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the U.S. told an interviewer for Religion News Service last week. That view is shared by John Schindler, a retired U.S. intelligence officer and historian with expertise in Eastern Europe, who argues that it was the establishment of the Orthodox Church in Ukraine separate from the Moscow patriarchate in 2019 that caused Russian President Vladimir Putin to invade.

The argument goes basically like this. Putin has wrapped his ambition to restore the Russian empire in a revived Russian Orthodox Church, long stifled by Communist hostility to religion. He considers Ukraine to be Russian heartland, spiritually as well as territorially.

After the 2014 Maidan revolution, in which the pro-Moscow president of Ukraine was ousted by protesters, deprived him of secular authority over the country, the establishment of an independent Orthodox Christian Church in the country, approved by Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I in Istanbul, was the last straw. Ergo, the invasion.

This seems to me to overstate the case. The Biden administration’s badly managed withdrawal from Afghanistan, the rise of a pro-Russian right in Europe and North America, and the dislocations of COVID-19 all gave Putin other reasons to imagine that the time was right to force Ukraine back into the Russian orbit.

But there can be no doubt that, under Putin, the Russian Orthodox Church has resumed its czarist role as an arm of state policy. This political religion — call it Russian Orthodox nationalism — has served not only to advance Putin’s goal of suppressing liberal democratic dissent at home but also to win the admiration of the pro-Christian right in Europe and America.

Writing nearly a century ago in the wake of the bloodletting of World War I, the eminent Columbia historian Carlton Hayes attacked what he called “a new religious syncretism, by virtue of which very many persons continue nominally to adhere to the faith of their ancestors and even to practice its cult, whilst they adapt it to the exigencies of nationalist worship and discipline.”

The flaunting of Christian imagery and language by those who stormed the Capitol on Jan. 6 is a prime example of such syncretism. 

More than half a century ago, in the throes of the Vietnam War, the eminent Berkeley sociologist Robert Bellah praised what he called “the American civil religion” as “not the worship of the American nation but an understanding of the American experience in the light of ultimate and universal reality.”

This issue that Putin has with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church also came up at the end of last year. Putin proposed a truce for Christmas. But that was a calculated slap in the face for the Ukrainians because the Ukrainian Orthodox Church had already celebrated their Christmas on a different day.

AFAIK Zelenskyy hasn’t sought to harness the Ukrainian Orthodox Church politically as Putin has. But I’m no expert and am willing to be corrected on this.

How concerning Christian Nationalism can be is amply demonstrated by the US. They have a Constitutional prohibition against adopting a religion but the right wing in particular routinely ignores it. The following is a BBC article about it:
Christian nationalists - wanting to put God into US government, bbc.com. (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63902626)

At its worst, Christian Nationalists believe they have a duty to ignore legislation that they say conflicts with their beliefs. Some consider themselves ‘Magistrates’ who can direct other believers to act contrary to law. When the rule of law disappears, what kind of democracy do you have? You may like the idea of a theocracy but I don’t. Church and State must be separate.


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 04, 2023, 05:34:57 pm
Zelensky is a Jewish comedian by trade who in a previous life was in a TV show that used to make fun of Jews and religion so he would probably fit right in on "The Project" and target Christians and Jews alike.
Was initially seen as a buffoon when he got the president role but a good dictator in Putin and a dirty War has done wonders for his credibility, as for harnessing the Ukranian Orthodox Church....dont see that happening, more harassing seems his methods.
Zelenskyy’s secret police have raided monasteries across Ukraine, and even a convent full of nuns, and arrested dozens of priests for no justifiable reasons whatsoever and in clear violation of the Ukrainian Constitution.
The UOC have actually assisted the Ukrainian army with money and aid but Zelenksy has been revoking citizenships of Priests in return. Biden has just sat back and allowed Zelensky to do what he likes.....nice quote from the past by the famous Will Rogers where he says
" Everything is changing, People are taking their comedians seriously and the politicians as a joke".
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Mav on March 04, 2023, 06:06:47 pm
Could it be that some priests and nuns have supported the Russians? After all, some of them might be ethnic Russians who remained loyal to the Russian Orthodox Church. Wouldn’t it be reasonable for a government of a country in wartime to crack down on treasonous clergy? Now, I don’t know if any of the above is true but I’m not going to accept without proof that they were arrested for no justifiable reason (and in fact after googling it looks like my suspicions are correct). But it looks from what you say that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church isn’t seen as an arm of the Ukrainian State such that we’d say Ukraine is run by Christian Nationalists (and that was the issue).

Do you agree with Sergei Lavrov that Russia is trying to stop the war that was started by the Ukrainians?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 04, 2023, 06:50:31 pm
Could it be that some priests and nuns have supported the Russians? After all, some of them might be ethnic Russians who remained loyal to the Russian Orthodox Church. Wouldn’t it be reasonable for a government of a country in wartime to crack down on treasonous clergy? Now, I don’t know if any of the above is true but I’m not going to accept without proof that they were arrested for no justifiable reason (and in fact after googling it looks like my suspicions are correct). But it looks from what you say that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church isn’t seen as an arm of the Ukrainian State such that we’d say Ukraine is run by Christian Nationalists (and that was the issue).

Do you agree with Sergei Lavrov that Russia is trying to stop the war that was started by the Ukrainians?
Sergei is being a good Russian Foreign Minister and selling Putin propaganda Goebbels style else he would need to check his drinks from the bar fridge were not glowing in the dark when he got home. Even the Rubel loving diplomatic Indian officials were laughing when they heard Lavrov do his comedy routine at the G20......
To be honest not sure where the Ukraine Government stand in regards to extreme Christian Nationalist ideology influence  but the mob on the other side of the border who attacked them are the most powerful Christian Nationalist Army on the planet in theory if they are all loyal to Vlad the imploder, got no doubt the Russian people are being sold this war is a holy war in terms of Western decay as well as NATO ganging up on them etc.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on March 04, 2023, 07:09:45 pm
Zelensky is a Jewish comedian by trade who in a previous life was in a TV show that used to make fun of Jews and religion so he would probably fit right in on "The Project" and target Christians and Jews alike.
Was initially seen as a buffoon when he got the president role but a good dictator in Putin and a dirty War has done wonders for his credibility, as for harnessing the Ukranian Orthodox Church....dont see that happening, more harassing seems his methods.
Zelenskyy’s secret police have raided monasteries across Ukraine, and even a convent full of nuns, and arrested dozens of priests for no justifiable reasons whatsoever and in clear violation of the Ukrainian Constitution.
The UOC have actually assisted the Ukrainian army with money and aid but Zelenksy has been revoking citizenships of Priests in return. Biden has just sat back and allowed Zelensky to do what he likes.....nice quote from the past by the famous Will Rogers where he says
" Everything is changing, People are taking their comedians seriously and the politicians as a joke".

The UOC is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) and is closely aligned with Putin's Russian Orthodox Church.  The OCU, Orthodox Church of Ukraine, was granted ecclesial independence by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople in 2019, giving it control of the branches of the Orthodox church in Ukraine including the UOC.  I think that you'll find that it's the OCU that has been assisting the Ukrainian Army and the UOC that's resisting the OCU and supporting the Russians.

While Zelensky was best known for his satirical comedy, he is a lawyer from a family of high achievers and intellectuals. I don't think anyone saw him as a buffoon.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 04, 2023, 08:31:31 pm
The UOC is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) and is closely aligned with Putin's Russian Orthodox Church.  The OCU, Orthodox Church of Ukraine, was granted ecclesial independence by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople in 2019, giving it control of the branches of the Orthodox church in Ukraine including the UOC.  I think that you'll find that it's the OCU that has been assisting the Ukrainian Army and the UOC that's resisting the OCU and supporting the Russians.

While Zelensky was best known for his satirical comedy, he is a lawyer from a family of high achievers and intellectuals. I don't think anyone saw him as a buffoon.


Zelenksy had an approval rating of just 31% when elected , he was a humourist/showman with no prior experience in public administration and got elected because the previous administration under Poroshenko was corrupt/hopeless and the public wanted him out and anything else was better than what they had. His political promises were just the typical populist carp and lets keep it accurate he was a legal graduate..he never worked a day as a professional practicing lawyer. Both the West and the East had their doubts on him being able to do the job.
The funny thing is he is best known for his role as an actor playing an ordinary man who accidentally becomes president of Ukraine in the TV series "Servant of the People". He also played the voice of Paddington Bear in the Ukrainian version.....I remember reading and enjoying the Paddington books when I was at school so he gets a tick from me .
Putin was another legal grad but of course went on to perform a not so comical role in the KGB making people disappear being his speciality. Credit to Zelensky he has proven to be a brave and smart worldly political operator and his approval rating is about as good as it gets for a Prez peaking at 90% but that wasnt the initial thoughts about him.
Zelenksy's father was an Electrical Engineer ...they are usually high achievers and intellectuals... 8)  ;)  :P
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on March 04, 2023, 11:01:54 pm
The UOC is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) and is closely aligned with Putin's Russian Orthodox Church.  The OCU, Orthodox Church of Ukraine, was granted ecclesial independence by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople in 2019, giving it control of the branches of the Orthodox church in Ukraine including the UOC.  I think that you'll find that it's the OCU that has been assisting the Ukrainian Army and the UOC that's resisting the OCU and supporting the Russians.

While Zelensky was best known for his satirical comedy, he is a lawyer from a family of high achievers and intellectuals. I don't think anyone saw him as a buffoon.



Christian nationalism has nothing to do with it according to mav, but your post says different.

If there's one thing a Greek understands its the role of the orthodox church in an orthodox country.

Kyril sees himself as the pope of the eastern orthodox Church and any support of Russian politics is likely forced by the hammer and cycle types to capture the mind and heart of the people.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on March 11, 2023, 09:48:37 am
Religious humour is one thing....but ignorant racist kiwi humour is something we should all be upset about. ;D

(warning: this video contains adult content and some naughty words)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GD7ZQXPtuI
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 03, 2023, 02:44:00 pm
I get the anger and distrust about the Porter Davis and Lloyd's collapses, but I fail to see how anybody benefits from breaking and entering to trash the reception desk.

If you are angry, go to the gym and punch the crap out of the sparring bag!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 03, 2023, 02:49:32 pm
I get the anger and distrust about the Porter Davis and Lloyd's collapses, but I fail to see how anybody benefits from breaking and entering to trash the reception desk.

If you are angry, go to the gym and punch the crap out of the sparring bag!

Good advice.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on April 03, 2023, 03:28:32 pm
I get the anger and distrust about the Porter Davis and Lloyd's collapses, but I fail to see how anybody benefits from breaking and entering to trash the reception desk.

If you are angry, go to the gym and punch the crap out of the sparring bag!

Dan's union goons.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 03, 2023, 04:34:35 pm
I get the anger and distrust about the Porter Davis and Lloyd's collapses, but I fail to see how anybody benefits from breaking and entering to trash the reception desk.

If you are angry, go to the gym and punch the crap out of the sparring bag!
The sparring bag hasnt taken your money, failed to complete construction of your house and continued trading when they knew they couldnt fulfill any new orders.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 03, 2023, 04:35:16 pm
The sparring bag hasnt taken your money, failed to complete construction of your house and continued trading when they knew they couldnt fulfill any new orders.

Or left you in financial ruin, with no hope of breaking the rent cycle, setting you back 20 years on that journey.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on April 03, 2023, 04:37:15 pm
Or left you in the lurch because you're a subbie and haven't been paid.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 03, 2023, 04:42:34 pm
A friend of mine lost her job, that pales into insignificance compared to the heartache for those who have one of the 1000 unfinished homes or haven't been paid for significant amounts of work. Just a horrible situation. I saw a bloke on the news who had just handed over a $200,000 payment and all he has is a slab. He is a small business owner, paying a mortgage for the property and will now probably end up bankrupt.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 03, 2023, 04:44:00 pm
I get all that.

But how does smashing stuff up, probably stuff that is leased, and perhaps ultimately owned by mum and dad investors, a super fund or such, how does that help?

They are just kicking people who are already down, perhaps some of you on this forum will get less growth, lower returns, or pay higher premiums this financial year because of that action!

It's doesn't hurt Lloyd's or Porter Davis at all!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 03, 2023, 04:50:54 pm
I get all that.

But how does smashing stuff up, probably stuff that is leased, and perhaps ultimately owned by mum and dad investors, a super fund or such, how does that help?

They are just kicking people who are already down, perhaps some of you on this forum will get less growth, lower returns, or pay higher premiums this financial year because of that action!

It's doesn't hurt Lloyd's or Porter Davis at all!

Mum and Dad investors and superfunds will see the last of the money.

Anything of worth will go to the creditors and the people left at the end of it will likely get nothing including the screwed over employees.

This is where investing in stocks is problematic.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 03, 2023, 04:51:56 pm
I get all that.

But how does smashing stuff up, probably stuff that is leased, and perhaps ultimately owned by mum and dad investors, a super fund or such, how does that help?

They are just kicking people who are already down, perhaps some of you on this forum will get less growth, lower returns, or pay higher premiums this financial year because of that action!

It's doesn't hurt Lloyd's or Porter Davis at all!
Yeah I agree, its never right to loot or cause damage as revenge. I was just saying what a horrible situation it must be for all concerned. If this was 2 years earlier, my daughter would be one of the ones suffering right now.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on April 03, 2023, 04:55:58 pm
Correct, LP, it doesn't.  But in all likelihood the subbies, employees and customers have been told porkies for some time about when they will get paid, or when the build will get going/completed.  That in it's own right causes a lot of stress.  It stinks massively when it is such a big financial committment.  Some people will react that way, whether it is helpful or not.

Porter Davis wouldn't have woken up on Friday morning, seen their bank account and thought we can't do this anymore - it would have been some time coming.  Their management of it would have been calm on the top of the water and panic underneath for a while as they sought to continue.


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 03, 2023, 04:57:08 pm
If this was 2 years earlier, my daughter would be one of the ones suffering right now.
As far as I know the real long term problem is going to come from the insurers trying to weasel out of honouring compulsory policies that are meant to protect mum and dad investors.

I know of people still waiting for insurance claims to be settled from the fires back in 2019, that is criminal!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 03, 2023, 05:00:22 pm
Porter Davis wouldn't have woken up on Friday morning, seen their bank account and thought we can't do this anymore - it would have been some time coming.  Their management of it would have been calm on the top of the water and panic underneath for a while as they sought to continue.
If they are guilty, they can run but they will have nowhere to hide, the era of big data has screwed over anybody who thinks they can live the high life as a white-collar criminal.

Sometimes that becomes a political issue, but even that is diminishing in modern times, it's very very hard to be a Christopher Skaise in the 2020s. For example it looks like Trump is betting on being President to avoid facing his issues, Bolsonaro the same, their is nobody in Porter Davis or Lloyd's at that level even if there are a few scoundrels.

Some have tried to go down the 1%ers route and become lawless, but then the people that help you hide ultimately become the executioner.

On the flipside, were the Vic timber bans the end for Lloyd's and Porter Davis, if so how has that anger to be directed, at an environmentalist?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 03, 2023, 05:28:36 pm
Mum and Dad investors and superfunds will see the last of the money.

Anything of worth will go to the creditors and the people left at the end of it will likely get nothing including the screwed over employees.

This is where investing in stocks is problematic.
There are as many creditors as there are unfinished homes, Id suggest there wont be much of anything after the Receivers sift through the books. The Andrews Government have gone quiet on the liquidation and dont appear to be offering any help either so I reckon homebuilders and staff will be short changed badly on this one.
Superfunds tend to go ASX top 50 stocks and mainly top 20 so more banks and miners etc, banks can have a few defaulters when building companies go broke but they usually find other ways to recoup their money and thats by hitting up other borrowers and adding some fees to accounts for mugs like us.
Its does pay to look at Companies a bit deeper than just the glossy brochures and if you look at Porter Davis they made a poor move in acquiring Engelhardt homes a couple of years ago and the CEO and ex CBA Private Bank Boss Adrian Hondros after extending his tenure with PD suddenly left as well and that was a bit of a red flag that something wasnt right.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 04, 2023, 05:44:20 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7dyJfUxgOw
So they just take the word of the individual as to which sex they identify with in Canada in some sports and its open slather to compete in any comp male or female?
But hang on you have to be "nice" like the other real trans gender athletes to compensate for having an unfair advantage over the non trans female athletes...thats makes it ok but when the non nice non trans man identifying as a female athlete wants to compete its not fair?
So adding all that up...being nice about it make its fair .....????
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 05, 2023, 07:52:55 am
Some of you will notice the rhetoric spinning up this week calling for bans or controls on AI, while the idea of controls and monitoring make sense, the rhetoric is over the top.

Many of the very same people claiming AI is a risk to democracy are the people who defend Trumps "alternative truths", or the right to own and carry guns, along with a whole host of other weirdo conspiracy theories like those myths surrounding the Obama's or Bill Gates.

People can go around and keep shooting school children, but a website that debunks your leader's spin is an evil that must be terminated.

It's a huge tell about who you want to listen to, just saying!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 05, 2023, 08:01:57 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7dyJfUxgOw
So they just take the word of the individual as to which sex they identify with in Canada in some sports and its open slather to compete in any comp male or female?
But hang on you have to be "nice" like the other real trans gender athletes to compensate for having an unfair advantage over the non trans female athletes...thats makes it ok but when the non nice non trans man identifying as a female athlete wants to compete its not fair?
So adding all that up...being nice about it make its fair .....????
Thanks @ElwoodBlues1

I can't believe it's coming to this, I mean it's surreal isn't it, without being malicious, this is exactly the reason why the likes of Hannah Mouncey can never ever play AFLW and should not be allowed to play VFLW either.

Ignoring the bizarre aspects of the CPU, I can't believe people think this stuff won't happen in general as it is already happening, and in sports that attract high remuneration it won't just be a possibility it will be inevitable. Whether it is just a legal loophole like the CPU, or requires a genuine transition, they'll do it because they can.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 05, 2023, 08:20:02 am
Thanks @ElwoodBlues1

I can't believe it's coming to this, I mean it's surreal isn't it, without being malicious, this is exactly the reason why the likes of Hannah Mouncey can never ever play AFLW and should not be allowed to play VFLW either.

Ignoring the bizarre aspects of the CPU, I can't believe people think this stuff won't happen in general as it is already happening, and in sports that attract high remuneration it won't just be a possibility it will be inevitable. Whether it is just a legal loophole like the CPU, or requires a genuine transition, they'll do it because they can.
Well, you only needed to watch 5 minutes of the 60 mins story the other night where parents don't assign a gender to their babies. At that point you realise just how farked the world is becoming.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 05, 2023, 09:44:39 am
Well, you only needed to watch 5 minutes of the 60 mins story the other night where parents don't assign a gender to their babies. At that point you realise just how farked the world is becoming.
That was disturbing stuff watching that and what effect it will have on those children....do they have a non gender name to like x or y, xy, etc etc.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 05, 2023, 09:47:40 am
Well, you only needed to watch 5 minutes of the 60 mins story the other night where parents don't assign a gender to their babies. At that point you realise just how farked the world is becoming.

You have to wonder whether would-be parents should pass an aptitude test before being allowed to reproduce 🙄

The other side of the coin is the practice of doctors arbitrarily deciding whether gender-indeterminate babies should be male or female and surgically removing the “unnecessary” bits.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 05, 2023, 10:01:11 am
You have to wonder whether would-be parents should pass an aptitude test before being allowed to reproduce 🙄

The other side of the coin is the practice of doctors arbitrarily deciding whether gender-indeterminate babies should be male or female and surgically removing the “unnecessary” bits.

Exceptions don't prove the rule statistically.

They are called outliers for a reason.

Currently (I find it incredible to believe that they would make that decision without consulting the parents) here are the stats:

It is estimated that up to 1.7 percent of the population has an intersex trait and that approximately 0.5 percent of people have clinically identifiable sexual or reproductive variations.

Considering the point of gender is about reproduction (all other things being equal) does it make sense to make that decision based on the ability to reproduce?

Perhaps not.  I don't have the answer, but seeing people pretend to be something they aren't is not the answer either.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 05, 2023, 10:49:45 am
That was disturbing stuff watching that and what effect it will have on those children....do they have a non gender name to like x or y, xy, etc etc.
Disturbing is putting it lightly EB
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 05, 2023, 01:09:33 pm
One is left with the feeling the child is more a political, social or fiscal utility, and the parents aren't so much parents but venture capital partners.

If the child grows to outlive it's utility, I can't help but think it will be discarded!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 07, 2023, 07:16:07 am
Breanna Gill says hello, even though golf is not so physical I have to wonder what the girls struggling to make ends meet on the WPGA tour think!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 10, 2023, 11:38:10 am
Interesting to read about Macron doing the traditional thing and folding like a house of cards after a visit to China, we are lucky as hell that we escaped that French Sub deal, we would probably have got a set of leaky boats full of Beijing back doors, not that the UK or US boats are likely to be any less leaky!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 11, 2023, 11:18:40 am
Both of my children married Collingwood supporters and my grandsons follow their father's team  :(

The oldest boy is 13 and he recently went to the hairdressers.  She asked how he would like his hair cut and his reply was "Like Nick Daicos."  The hairdresser responded with, "Who is Nick Daicos?"  She just happens to be the partner of one of Geelong's gun players  :)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 11, 2023, 04:47:46 pm
The oldest boy is 13 and he recently went to the hairdressers.  She asked how he would like his hair cut and his reply was "Like Nick Daicos."  The hairdresser responded with, "Who is Nick Daicos?"  
imho, that was exactly the correct response to the instruction as issued!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 13, 2023, 01:20:15 pm
Merri-bek, that is what you get when you vote in a bunch of single issue councillors!

In the meantime, my associates living in Merri-bek can't get basic services from council, and are being told they have to pay more for what they failed to get!

I suppose those extra funds will be funnelled into protests next time a Sub runs aground in Merri Creek putting the MCG mud at risk of nuclear contamination!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 13, 2023, 01:43:17 pm
Merri-bek, that is what you get when you vote in a bunch of single issue councillors!

In the meantime, my associates living in Merri-bek can't get basic services from council, and are being told they have to pay more for what they failed to get!

I suppose those extra funds will be funnelled into protests next time a Sub runs aground in Merri Creek putting the MCG mud at risk of nuclear contamination!
Thats why City of Darebin banned nuclear weapons, you just never know.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 13, 2023, 02:32:58 pm
Thats why City of Darebin banned nuclear weapons, you just never know.
My associate who lives in Merri-Bek said they were taking a cautious approach, with global warming Coburg could become the new St Kilda beach!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 17, 2023, 01:22:11 pm
If a male senator went to a strip club, with or without accompanying females friends, it would be career ending and it should be! :o

This Lidia Thorpe situation has become a parody of itself, true character is now on display for all to see and I have to wonder if those with young daughters think it's OK?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 17, 2023, 02:33:18 pm
If a male senator went to a strip club, with or without accompanying females friends, it would be career ending and it should be! :o

This Lidia Thorpe situation has become a parody of itself, true character is now on display for all to see and I have to wonder if those with young daughters think it's OK?

Unless she went there to rebel-rouse or lecture the attendees. Either way, her credibility (mental state?) continues to be under scrutiny.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 17, 2023, 02:45:43 pm
Unless she went there to rebel-rouse or lecture the attendees. Either way, her credibility (mental state?) continues to be under scrutiny.
She was alleged to be accompanying a friend who was having his 50th birthday at the venue, maybe one of these?

(https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/42c47e67a4604d4811bcd8d209676b15)

It seems pretty obvious to me, based on her recent activities, she is trying to set herself up so that she can claim she is a victim of the racist authorities.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 17, 2023, 03:50:54 pm
She was alleged to be accompanying a friend who was having his 50th birthday at the venue, maybe one of these?

(https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/42c47e67a4604d4811bcd8d209676b15)

It seems pretty obvious to me, based on her recent activities, she is trying to set herself up so that she can claim she is a victim of the racist authorities.

That person makes me feel ill every time I see its head on TV/Print.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 17, 2023, 03:54:00 pm
If a male senator went to a strip club, with or without accompanying females friends, it would be career ending and it should be! :o

This Lidia Thorpe situation has become a parody of itself, true character is now on display for all to see and I have to wonder if those with young daughters think it's OK?
If one my daughters behaved like that, I'd disown her.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 17, 2023, 04:15:32 pm
If one my daughters behaved like that, I'd disown her.
Your taxes and mine at work....😒
This from the Age: Lidia Thorpe has defended her behaviour outside a Melbourne strip club, after footage surfaced of her yelling profanities and telling men they had small genitalia.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Macca37 on April 17, 2023, 04:21:21 pm
Unfortunately she is untouchable while she remains a member of the Senate.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 17, 2023, 06:28:02 pm
Your taxes and mine at work....😒
This from the Age: Lidia Thorpe has defended her behaviour outside a Melbourne strip club, after footage surfaced of her yelling profanities and telling men they had small genitalia.
It all started with her starting an argument with a "European looking person" inside the club accusing him of stealing her land. Makes my blood boil.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 17, 2023, 06:30:01 pm
Unfortunately she is untouchable while she remains a member of the Senate.
If Thorpe was working the door at the club and a poli hurled abuse like its way, there would be hell to pay today.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 17, 2023, 06:36:12 pm
It all started with her starting an argument with a "European looking person" inside the club accusing him of stealing her land. Makes my blood boil.


She's right.

The Europeans came and took the indigenous future away from them and gave them ours.  They don't want to be a part of anything to do with us, and they just wish we can go back to where we came from.

At least that's what the like minded types of her ilk think. 

So let's cut the crap and understand that until this side of the argument is dropped the cycle will be endless and these events will continue.

The conversation has many sides to it.  Not many invaders across the planet have conceded what the European invaders have here.  Rather than pander to it gradually let's find out what they want and find a way to give it to them without having to hand back the keys and walk away.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 17, 2023, 06:59:41 pm
It all started with her starting an argument with a "European looking person" inside the club accusing him of stealing her land. Makes my blood boil.

I share your frustration...the blame game excuse trotted out in response for her poor behaviour.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Professer E on April 17, 2023, 08:53:06 pm
Single handedly ensuring a NO result at the upcoming referendum
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 17, 2023, 10:30:47 pm
If a male senator went to a strip club, with or without accompanying females friends, it would be career ending and it should be! :o

This Lidia Thorpe situation has become a parody of itself, true character is now on display for all to see and I have to wonder if those with young daughters think it's OK?

K Rudd was outed going to a strip club and his popularity rating skyrocketed  :)

A friend was a Greens candidate many years ago.  I think that she would now agree that it was fortunate that she wasn't elected as she was eminently ill-prepared for politics/parliament at the time.  It was apparent to me that she was selected on the basis of the boxes she ticked rather than her ability to do the job.  Almost a quarter of a century later, the Greens seem to have taken the same approach with Thorpe and guaranteed her a seat in the Senate because of what she is rather than whether she is capable of doing the job or whether she is an appropriate person to be a Senator.  It has come back to bite them on the butt big time, but it's also biting Lidia on the butt.

It's interesting to compare Thorpe with the fictional Alex Irving from "Total Control".  Lidia could have done worse than to follow Alex's lead or, indeed, that of the major parties' Indigenous Senators, who manage to perform their roles with dignity and respect.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 18, 2023, 07:24:57 am
K Rudd was outed going to a strip club and his popularity rating skyrocketed  :)

A friend was a Greens candidate many years ago.  I think that she would now agree that it was fortunate that she wasn't elected as she was eminently ill-prepared for politics/parliament at the time.  It was apparent to me that she was selected on the basis of the boxes she ticked rather than her ability to do the job.  Almost a quarter of a century later, the Greens seem to have taken the same approach with Thorpe and guaranteed her a seat in the Senate because of what she is rather than whether she is capable of doing the job or whether she is an appropriate person to be a Senator.  It has come back to bite them on the butt big time, but it's also biting Lidia on the butt.

It's interesting to compare Thorpe with the fictional Alex Irving from "Total Control".  Lidia could have done worse than to follow Alex's lead or, indeed, that of the major parties' Indigenous Senators, who manage to perform their roles with dignity and respect.

Exactly a discussion I was having with Mrs Baggers very recently, David. And goes some distance in explaining the calibre of some pollies... in all parties. The ideal of going into politics to be of service to the public has all but evaporated.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 18, 2023, 07:29:00 am
Now with this missive I will tread carefully!

I have absolutely no doubt that many suing the AFL for brain injury sustained on the field of play are absolutely legitimate... however... cocaine use also causes brain damage and I hope neurosurgeons can tell the difference between the two, if there is one. I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 18, 2023, 08:05:15 am
Now with this missive I will tread carefully!

I have absolutely no doubt that many suing the AFL for brain injury sustained on the field of play are absolutely legitimate... however... cocaine use also causes brain damage and I hope neurosurgeons can tell the difference between the two, if there is one. I'll leave it at that.
I suppose that is the key difference between finding someone to blame versus taking responsibility.

What an opportunity lost!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 18, 2023, 09:08:23 am
Now with this missive I will tread carefully!

I have absolutely no doubt that many suing the AFL for brain injury sustained on the field of play are absolutely legitimate... however... cocaine use also causes brain damage and I hope neurosurgeons can tell the difference between the two, if there is one. I'll leave it at that.
The AFL don't have a drug problem with players...just ask them.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 18, 2023, 09:49:47 am
The AFL don't have a drug problem with players...just ask them.
Back then was different, and post career Ablett Snr was in a bad way, far worse than BumberT and BumberT was fully cooked.

Not sure how modern players can reliably avoid detection anymore, they are tested so much, I doubt the issue is anywhere near as bad as it was in the 80s and 90s. But I worry that the non-illicit drugs and out of season detections might not be taken as seriously as they should be, we know that nefarious types spike the stuff with preferred addictions.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 18, 2023, 11:41:16 am
Back then was different, and post career Ablett Snr was in a bad way, far worse than BumberT and BumberT was fully cooked.

Not sure how modern players can reliably avoid detection anymore, they are tested so much, I doubt the issue is anywhere near as bad as it was in the 80s and 90s. But I worry that the non-illicit drugs and out of season detections might not be taken as seriously as they should be, we know that nefarious types spike the stuff with preferred addictions.

I know quite well a player who regularly sourced a 'bag' and got on the snort reasonably regularly and it was somewhat of a culture at this particular club... and that was well into the 2000s.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 18, 2023, 11:58:46 am
I know quite well a player who regularly sourced a 'bag' and got on the snort reasonably regularly and it was somewhat of a culture at this particular club... and that was well into the 2000s.
True, but even so the testing then wasn't what it is now.

Even if we do not know, the AFL surely do!

We see this growing trend for players to take some time away from the game, it is often written off as mental health, it won't be all cases but I'm certain some of them will be strikes that we the general public know nothing about. The problem is we do not want to the speculation, it helps nobody, but it's surely up to the player to expose their own issues if they feel fit to do so!

I suspect eventually the culture will change, and these issues will be discussed more freely.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Professer E on April 18, 2023, 12:08:42 pm
Ablett Snr suing the AFL after what he did on-field is both cynical and disengenuous.  And given his off field history, if he takes the stand the entire industry comes under the spotlight.  How's the AFL going to handle this, how many skeletons are going to need reburying?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 18, 2023, 12:59:23 pm
Ablett’s lawyer was on the wireless today spruiking a settlement.  I guess she’s hoping that her client won’t have to give evidence.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 18, 2023, 01:33:31 pm
Ablett’s lawyer was on the wireless today spruiking a settlement.  I guess she’s hoping that her client won’t have to give evidence.
I bet the lawyer hopes the AFL is scared of the potential skeletons.

Who is currently involved in the game that might need to hide some past indiscretions, and has a big enough profile to worry about it?

PS; I don't think it makes much difference to Gloch and some of the other executive types, but there may be a vintage players currently in admin roles that are squirming a bit!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on April 18, 2023, 03:15:05 pm
True, but even so the testing then wasn't what it is now.

Even if we do not know, the AFL surely do!

We see this growing trend for players to take some time away from the game, it is often written off as mental health, it won't be all cases but I'm certain some of them will be strikes that we the general public know nothing about. The problem is we do not want to the speculation, it helps nobody, but it's surely up to the player to expose their own issues if they feel fit to do so!

I suspect eventually the culture will change, and these issues will be discussed more freely.

I listened to a podcast that had Ricky Nixon talking about Cousins, Carey and his own Cocaine issues.
Depending on the player and specifically their metabolism. The drug can be out of your system within 24 hours.

So the AFLs drug policy is a 'gold star' in terms of optics.
However, in terms of finding and/or fixing the problem. Its like throwing darts at a dartboard blindfolded. Hitting what you want, when you want is nothing short of a miracle.
Further to that, players often get a heads up on when they are going to be tested. So if you think you will get done, you 'self-report' and avoid the strike system altogether.

I'd like to think its less of an issue than it once was, but i think players are a lot more educated now on how to beat the system now so they take more risks.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 18, 2023, 03:22:06 pm
So the answer is let them play on illicit drugs and lets not pretend they are all schoolboys (or at least not the private school boys I knew/know who like their bags)?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 18, 2023, 03:31:41 pm
So the answer is let them play on illicit drugs and lets not pretend they are all schoolboys (or at least not the private school boys I knew/know who like their bags)?
So, do I presume you would be OK with your children emulating their sporting heroes?

Like it or not, they are role models, I realise it's a big ask, but given how many young blokes take their own life the last thing we need are more of them in debt to criminals, or suffering the side-effects of addiction.

We certainly do not need youth emulating their wayward heroes! ;)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 18, 2023, 04:02:19 pm
I listened to a podcast that had Ricky Nixon talking about Cousins, Carey and his own Cocaine issues.
Depending on the player and specifically their metabolism. The drug can be out of your system within 24 hours.

So the AFLs drug policy is a 'gold star' in terms of optics.
However, in terms of finding and/or fixing the problem. Its like throwing darts at a dartboard blindfolded. Hitting what you want, when you want is nothing short of a miracle.
Further to that, players often get a heads up on when they are going to be tested. So if you think you will get done, you 'self-report' and avoid the strike system altogether.

I'd like to think its less of an issue than it once was, but i think players are a lot more educated now on how to beat the system now so they take more risks.

That's unlikely.

From the American Addiction Centres website:

"After last use, cocaine or its metabolites typically can show up on a blood or saliva test for up to 2 days, a urine test for up to 3 days, and a hair test for months to years. A heavy user can test positive on a urine test for up to 2 weeks.

But other factors can influence how long it stays in someone’s body, such as metabolism, weight, dose, and frequency of use. Drinking while taking cocaine may also slow its elimination from the body."

Hair testing has been part of the AFL drug testing regime since 2016.  However, like risk takers generally, drug users may take the chance that they won't be tested until traces of illegal/banned substances are undetectable ... and they can always self-report and avoid a strike if they have been caught or self-reported before.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on April 18, 2023, 05:17:03 pm
That's unlikely.

From the American Addiction Centres website:

"After last use, cocaine or its metabolites typically can show up on a blood or saliva test for up to 2 days, a urine test for up to 3 days, and a hair test for months to years. A heavy user can test positive on a urine test for up to 2 weeks.

But other factors can influence how long it stays in someone’s body, such as metabolism, weight, dose, and frequency of use. Drinking while taking cocaine may also slow its elimination from the body."

Hair testing has been part of the AFL drug testing regime since 2016.  However, like risk takers generally, drug users may take the chance that they won't be tested until traces of illegal/banned substances are undetectable ... and they can always self-report and avoid a strike if they have been caught or self-reported before.


Chicken Nixon did say the both he and cousins were in the 99.9th percentile and their individual stories are very much unique.
But how many people would even know what metabolic percentile they would even be in....or of it was even a thing?

As for the testing, my understanding is that they don't do all 3 tests at the same time, despite having all available to them. I don't know the logistics of it, but players are well aware of them.

If you get super worried, just do what Ben cousins did and shave off all his hair when he was due to get tested. That was in his doco. Can't do hair tests if you have no hair to test.

Perhaps all players with shaved heads are ones we should be more wary of?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 18, 2023, 07:23:18 pm
Chicken Nixon did say the both he and cousins were in the 99.9th percentile and their individual stories are very much unique.
But how many people would even know what metabolic percentile they would even be in....or of it was even a thing?

As for the testing, my understanding is that they don't do all 3 tests at the same time, despite having all available to them. I don't know the logistics of it, but players are well aware of them.

If you get super worried, just do what Ben cousins did and shave off all his hair when he was due to get tested. That was in his doco. Can't do hair tests if you have no hair to test.

Perhaps all players with shaved heads are ones we should be more wary of?

The AFL wasn’t doing hair testing when Cousins was playing.  While he shaved down to avoid testing, I think that it was club testing and/or a contractual requirement.

I’m not sure that I would trust anything Nixon has to say and how would he have established that he and Cousins were in the 99.9th percentile?  Probably wishful thinking.

As for shaved heads, it’s the coves with no eyebrows and full body waxes that you’d be suspicious of … and it’s damn hard to get rid of your nasal hair 🙂
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 18, 2023, 07:45:08 pm
And, like repeated blows to the head, what are the long term effects of cocaine use on the brain... brain damage and illness, that's what. People doing bags and lines are playing Russian Roulette with their mental health... for the remainder of their lives. Not like hitting the turps for too long, the body will recover given the right diet and circumstances, but once you're brain damaged due to cocaine use - it's permanent, and you're rooted.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 18, 2023, 07:53:22 pm
And, like repeated blows to the head, what are the long term effects of cocaine use on the brain... brain damage and illness, that's what. People doing bags and lines are playing Russian Roulette with their mental health... for the remainder of their lives. Not like hitting the turps for too long, the body will recover given the right diet and circumstances, but once you're brain damaged due to cocaine use - it's permanent, and you're rooted.
I genuinely hope Ablett gets awarded millions which the family of the late Alisha Horan then sue him for double that amount.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Professer E on April 18, 2023, 08:21:43 pm
Testify brother
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on April 18, 2023, 08:24:46 pm
Now with this missive I will tread carefully!

I have absolutely no doubt that many suing the AFL for brain injury sustained on the field of play are absolutely legitimate... however... cocaine use also causes brain damage and I hope neurosurgeons can tell the difference between the two, if there is one. I'll leave it at that.

I’ve just read your post and we are of a similar mindset as I have posted on the fb page.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 18, 2023, 08:55:27 pm
I genuinely hope Ablett gets awarded millions which the family of the late Alisha Horan then sue him for double that amount.
Unfortunately when I think or read about Gary Ablett Snr the first thing I think of is that poor girl and not Abletts football prowess..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 18, 2023, 09:35:21 pm
Unfortunately when I think or read about Gary Ablett Snr the first thing I think of is that poor girl and not Abletts football prowess..
Same
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 18, 2023, 09:49:51 pm
Unfortunately when I think or read about Gary Ablett Snr the first thing I think of is that poor girl and not Abletts football prowess..

Yes, it’s hard to unsee that sorry episode … and I suspect that’s why Ablett’s lawyer is hoping for a settlement. 

I can’t see why the AFL would want to cover up drug use by former players and a warts and all expose would reduce the AFL’s culpability.  I reckon they might go in boots and all.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 18, 2023, 10:00:25 pm
Yes, it’s hard to unsee that sorry episode … and I suspect that’s why Ablett’s lawyer is hoping for a settlement. 

I can’t see why the AFL would want to cover up drug use by former players and a warts and all expose would reduce the AFL’s culpability.  I reckon they might go in boots and all.
I hope they expose his dirty past.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 18, 2023, 10:14:38 pm
So, do I presume you would be OK with your children emulating their sporting heroes?

Like it or not, they are role models, I realise it's a big ask, but given how many young blokes take their own life the last thing we need are more of them in debt to criminals, or suffering the side-effects of addiction.

We certainly do not need youth emulating their wayward heroes! ;)

They aren't role models, they're guys that play footy well.

The Sam walsh types will see the ones that like their substances fall out of the game.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 18, 2023, 10:36:55 pm
I hope they expose his dirty past.
Agree...its an unresolved situation imho and the Horan parents deserve better. Ablett Snr avoided answering questions and then played the victim and hid behind religion for a while hoping it would all go away.
Digressing I look at this Paul Denyer situation and I find it hard to accept how the law gets manipulated to help criminals.
As much as society has progressed we seem to be making it easier for people to avoid facing up to their responsibilities.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 18, 2023, 10:43:11 pm
They aren't role models, they're guys that play footy well.

The Sam walsh types will see the ones that like their substances fall out of the game.

And that makes them role models, whether they like it or not.  It also forces the AFL to take responsibility for ensuring that the role models its competition creates do not exert a poor influence on supporters.  It’s part of the social contract that all sporting bodies have to adhere to.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 19, 2023, 04:47:45 am
And that makes them role models, whether they like it or not.  It also forces the AFL to take responsibility for ensuring that the role models its competition creates do not exert a poor influence on supporters.  It’s part of the social contract that all sporting bodies have to adhere to.

See my thought process is different.

It's up to the education of young people to show them what is ultimately a good or bad decision, or what is a good or bad role model.  That doesn't mean shielding them from the reality that some people are loose cannons even if they can play footy well.  There won't be many good footy players that can behave as they like without their body letting them down and its not up to the afl players to be superhuman and any different to society. 

Perhaps keeping these things out of discussion is a better way to handle it, after all you only see fools getting done on video with white powders as opposed to the majority.  So how would anyone know what anyone's up to if not for the media?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on April 19, 2023, 07:18:07 am
There won't be many good footy players that can behave as they like without their body letting them down and its not up to the afl players to be superhuman and any different to society. 

Unlike Rock Stars ;)  :))

(https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.d6ea073f2f04a83c5c52b5d2773078fb?rik=%2bwtAecbQjwslxQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fkingscourt.com.au%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2018%2f05%2fKeith-Richards.jpg&ehk=3HidwkzZQUCjSoukEo%2bWFOsKELOScAQjBrp1HlNmeL4%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 19, 2023, 07:54:29 am
See my thought process is different.

It's up to the education of young people to show them what is ultimately a good or bad decision, or what is a good or bad role model.  That doesn't mean shielding them from the reality that some people are loose cannons even if they can play footy well.  There won't be many good footy players that can behave as they like without their body letting them down and its not up to the afl players to be superhuman and any different to society. 

Perhaps keeping these things out of discussion is a better way to handle it, after all you only see fools getting done on video with white powders as opposed to the majority.  So how would anyone know what anyone's up to if not for the media?

I think it's both, 3 Leos. Principal LODS is absolutely right, as are you, IMHO.

In my experience of helping addicts, including cocaine addicts, it did not escape my attention that coke addicts had some 'perfect storm' elements in their lives - high stress job, periods of boredom and a high disposable income. Some young folks were going through $500 - $1500 per week/fortnight. Most blue collar folks stuck to grog, doobies, amphetamines and the like... or resorted to crime to support a coke or gambling habit.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 19, 2023, 10:04:19 am
Unlike Rock Stars ;)  :))

(https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.d6ea073f2f04a83c5c52b5d2773078fb?rik=%2bwtAecbQjwslxQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fkingscourt.com.au%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2018%2f05%2fKeith-Richards.jpg&ehk=3HidwkzZQUCjSoukEo%2bWFOsKELOScAQjBrp1HlNmeL4%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)

Exactly lods. My dad was a smoker and only drank the odd brandy when he was feeling unwell.  Chronic lymphocytic leukaemia got him via a treatment that somehow caused liver failure. 

Thats when I found out you can only go 2 weeks without a working liver before organ failure gets you.

Dusty Martin is idolised by many young folk, but they aren't going to go threatening people with chopsticks any time soon just because he did it.

@baggers yep it ain't a zero sum game but if the players aren't giving themselves a bad profile to go with their habit then supporting them by not ending their career is one way to help them right?  Another way might be to shield them from undue scrutiny.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 19, 2023, 10:12:02 am
Single biggest problem for me with all this stuff is that people dont properly own their mistakes. I have to give praise to the young Coll player Ginnivan who was the only person I can recall in recent history to come straight out and say yep, I'm a DH, I did drugs, I need to fix myself up, I need to earn the trust back . Every other prick blames the next prick or mental health, flat out denys it like Carey at the WA Casino or some other BS. Just own it and fix it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 19, 2023, 01:25:01 pm
Single biggest problem for me with all this stuff is that people dont properly own their mistakes. I have to give praise to the young Coll player Ginnivan who was the only person I can recall in recent history to come straight out and say yep, I'm a DH, I did drugs, I need to fix myself up, I need to earn the trust back . Every other prick blames the next prick or mental health, flat out denys it like Carey at the WA Casino or some other BS. Just own it and fix it.

Spot on, GTC. Until you realise it aint everybody else's fault and to be accountable and take responsibility, you aint going to get anywhere... possibly worse. But once responsibility is accepted and meant, legitimate progress can be made and maintained.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 19, 2023, 03:25:03 pm
Spot on, GTC. Until you realise it aint everybody else's fault and to be accountable and take responsibility, you aint going to get anywhere... possibly worse. But once responsibility is accepted and meant, legitimate progress can be made and maintained.
It seems to be that the ones in the public spotlight are the worst offenders as image is everything. Well I would respect them more if they owned it. As it stands, Carey for example can scream to me until he is blue in the face that the white powder in the bag was a blue anti inflammatory tablet crushed up to take with a meal, I aint buying that crap. Most of us  weren't born yesterday.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 19, 2023, 03:49:35 pm
It seems to be that the ones in the public spotlight are the worst offenders as image is everything. Well I would respect them more if they owned it. As it stands, Carey for example can scream to me until he is blue in the face that the white powder in the bag was a blue anti inflammatory tablet crushed up to take with a meal, I aint buying that crap. Most of us  weren't born yesterday.
Aleve( Naproxen) the fast absorbing version which is also known as Naprosyn which is the base version in Aus...it comes with a blue enteric coating because its not real good for your stomach so it needs to be slow released. Its not meant to be crushed and it says so on the info notes.......
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 19, 2023, 04:46:07 pm
Aleve( Naproxen) the fast absorbing version which is also known as Naprosyn which is the base version in Aus...it comes with a blue enteric coating because its not real good for your stomach so it needs to be slow released. Its not meant to be crushed and it says so on the info notes.......
In fairness to Carey, I've have a family member who was given the very same advice, after experiencing heartburn and indigestion my relative was told to crush the tablets and sprinkle the powder over food. But my relative didn't carry the crushed tablets around in a baggy, he just crushed them at the dinner table using the side of his cutlery.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 19, 2023, 05:22:05 pm
Sad news about Father Bob, a Filth supporter but otherwise a good bloke.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 19, 2023, 05:26:02 pm
Sad news about Father Bob, a Filth supporter but otherwise a good bloke.
A lovely, genuine bloke who cared for the community and the less fortunate.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 19, 2023, 05:27:23 pm
In fairness to Carey, I've have a family member who was given the very same advice, after experiencing heartburn and indigestion my relative was told to crush the tablets and sprinkle the powder over food. But my relative didn't carry the crushed tablets around in a baggy, he just crushed them at the dinner table using the side of his cutlery.
LP, Carey's powder was white, the tablets he claimed were crushed were blue. I have no time or sympathy for the DH. Great footballer, crap bloke.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 19, 2023, 05:34:53 pm
Sad news about Father Bob, a Filth supporter but otherwise a good bloke.

Sad news indeed!

I first encountered Father Bob when he did a TV show with Jon Safran and I took an instant liking to him.  What’s not like about someone who doesn’t let religion get in the way of doing good works?

RIP
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 19, 2023, 06:24:55 pm
In fairness to Carey, I've have a family member who was given the very same advice, after experiencing heartburn and indigestion my relative was told to crush the tablets and sprinkle the powder over food. But my relative didn't carry the crushed tablets around in a baggy, he just crushed them at the dinner table using the side of his cutlery.
Nexium and Tazac combined is the gold standard treatment for heartburn/reflux.
Carey was on anti inflammatories for pain management wasn't he...? You can take a liquid version or liquid capsules of Naproxen. I'm with GTC  ...Carey isnt of great character..
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 19, 2023, 06:26:09 pm
LP, Carey's powder was white, the tablets he claimed were crushed were blue. I have no time or sympathy for the DH. Great footballer, crap bloke.
They have a blue coating to induce slow release but are white underneath...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 19, 2023, 07:07:37 pm
They have a blue coating to induce slow release but are white underneath...
Perhaps, I dont believe the prick anyway. Has a poor track record with life, shagged his best mates wife, glassed his missus, got caught up in drug sting with some skank GF,  just the lowest form of life there is.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 19, 2023, 08:06:04 pm
Perhaps, I dont believe the prick anyway. Has a poor track record with life, shagged his best mates wife, glassed his missus, got caught up in drug sting with some skank GF,  just the lowest form of life there is.
Agree...he isn't trustworthy and has more form than Ronny Biggs for doing the wrong thing.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 20, 2023, 01:26:31 am
LP, Carey's powder was white, the tablets he claimed were crushed were blue. I have no time or sympathy for the DH. Great footballer, crap bloke.
The colour related to branding not the medicine itself, they might be blue, blue outer or any other colour. I take tablets that are orange from one source but white from another.

Not defending Carey, just highlighting the facts aren't as certain as it seems.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 20, 2023, 06:46:20 pm
Daddio aint too happy with his feral daughter:

Firebrand senator Lidia Thorpe’s father has given an extraordinary interview, where he brands his proudly Indigenous daughter as “a very racist person”.
Roy Illingworth has told Andrew Bolt on his Sky News program that he’s “disappointed” by how his controversial daughter had abandoned her English and Irish roots.
“The way I see it, the way she is and the way she’s changed over the years, she’s a very racist person,” Mr Illingworth told The Bolt Report airing on Thursday.

“She doesn’t acknowledge any of her white side. I’m a bit disappointed in the way she’s been carrying on lately.

“Because after all, she does have English background as well as Irish, the convict side of the English.”


Here's an idea, give your Irish/English self an uppercut and make it apologise to yourself😂😂😂
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 20, 2023, 07:36:39 pm
Daddio aint too happy with his feral daughter:

Firebrand senator Lidia Thorpe’s father has given an extraordinary interview, where he brands his proudly Indigenous daughter as “a very racist person”.
Roy Illingworth has told Andrew Bolt on his Sky News program that he’s “disappointed” by how his controversial daughter had abandoned her English and Irish roots.
“The way I see it, the way she is and the way she’s changed over the years, she’s a very racist person,” Mr Illingworth told The Bolt Report airing on Thursday.

“She doesn’t acknowledge any of her white side. I’m a bit disappointed in the way she’s been carrying on lately.

“Because after all, she does have English background as well as Irish, the convict side of the English.”


Here's an idea, give your Irish/English self an uppercut and make it apologise to yourself😂😂😂

Now she'll come out and say that her father is a racist, misogynist and god knows what else. She needs help.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 21, 2023, 12:25:53 am
Daddio aint too happy with his feral daughter:

Firebrand senator Lidia Thorpe’s father has given an extraordinary interview, where he brands his proudly Indigenous daughter as “a very racist person”.
Roy Illingworth has told Andrew Bolt on his Sky News program that he’s “disappointed” by how his controversial daughter had abandoned her English and Irish roots.
“The way I see it, the way she is and the way she’s changed over the years, she’s a very racist person,” Mr Illingworth told The Bolt Report airing on Thursday.

“She doesn’t acknowledge any of her white side. I’m a bit disappointed in the way she’s been carrying on lately.

“Because after all, she does have English background as well as Irish, the convict side of the English.”


Here's an idea, give your Irish/English self an uppercut and make it apologise to yourself😂😂😂

I’d be more inclined to take Roy seriously if he had shared his thoughts with anyone other than the human pustule.

It’s fraught to weigh up cultural ethnicity against biological ethnicity but the bottom line is that the blokes that Thorpe accused of stealing her people’s land are closer to her genetically than she is to the people who’s land was stolen.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on April 21, 2023, 07:38:25 am
It's something I struggle with at times in these discussions...and not just race.
The human makeup is pretty complex
Folks want to identify as 'one' or the 'other' rather than embracing everything that is part of their makeup.
The net result is that it creates a barrier.
You v Me.
I guess the danger for those of indigenous backgrounds is that there may be a fear (justified, no doubt) that their culture is swamped and lost if they don't fight to preserve it.
It's not a new debate.
I remember that it was a discussion when I was back in High School
Assimilation v Integration.

Assimilation- where the population is blended together and minority identity is eventually filterered out v Integration- where the individual cultures are able to maintain and celebrate their identity within a larger society.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 21, 2023, 09:03:04 am
I’d be more inclined to take Roy seriously if he had shared his thoughts with anyone other than the human pustule.

It’s fraught to weigh up cultural ethnicity against biological ethnicity but the bottom line is that the blokes that Thorpe accused of stealing her people’s land are closer to her genetically than she is to the people who’s land was stolen.



Lidia strikes me as someone who seeks to be a victim and perhaps, eventually, a martyr. There seems to be an identity/personality issue (disorder?) happening there.

As for Bolt... he would have been desperate to invalidate Lidia's indigenous heritage and finding her father was a gold mine for him ('human pustule' is perhaps too kind, David). I notice on the depressing subject of Bolt he had little or nothing to say about the recent huge loss of Fr Bob, a shining example to the Catholic Church of real community and spiritual service to his people, but sure did come to the defence of Pell (the antithesis of Fr Bob) when he was in deserved strife. Makes a huge comment about Bolt.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on April 21, 2023, 09:12:28 am
If Bob was wrongfully jailed for raping boys I'm sure he would have said something.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 21, 2023, 09:19:02 am
If Bob was wrongfully jailed for raping boys I'm sure he would have said something.


I'm not talking about Pell's wrongful jailing, I'm talking about the Pell who knew of priest's violating young boys in Ballarat and did nothing about it accept to shuffle guilty priests around to other parishes to avoid negative publicity and law suits. Bolt chooses to ignore this when Pell admitted to it in a 60 Minutes feature.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 21, 2023, 09:26:38 am
Lidia strikes me as someone who seeks to be a victim and perhaps, eventually, a martyr. There seems to be an identity/personality issue (disorder?) happening there.

As for Bolt... he would have been desperate to invalidate Lidia's indigenous heritage and finding her father was a gold mine for him ('human pustule' is perhaps too kind, David). I notice on the depressing subject of Bolt he had little or nothing to say about the recent huge loss of Fr Bob, a shining example to the Catholic Church of real community and spiritual service to his people, but sure did come to the defence of Pell (the antithesis of Fr Bob) when he was in deserved strife. Makes a huge comment about Bolt.
Weather you like Bolt or not is irrelevant here I think. Point is, that imbecile (I can't even bring myself to type her name) is as fake and as feral as humans come. She is doing more damage to indigenous culture going forward than all the current pollies put together.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 21, 2023, 09:40:12 am
Lidia strikes me as someone who seeks to be a victim and perhaps, eventually, a martyr. There seems to be an identity/personality issue (disorder?) happening there.

As for Bolt... he would have been desperate to invalidate Lidia's indigenous heritage and finding her father was a gold mine for him ('human pustule' is perhaps too kind, David). I notice on the depressing subject of Bolt he had little or nothing to say about the recent huge loss of Fr Bob, a shining example to the Catholic Church of real community and spiritual service to his people, but sure did come to the defence of Pell (the antithesis of Fr Bob) when he was in deserved strife. Makes a huge comment about Bolt.

Not really understanding her point of view there Baggers old mate.  I think I see part of my own struggle in hers and perhaps I am wrong with this, but the following is my assessment of this person:

Odds are she had a similar issue that I at times felt.  Too Indigenous to be accepted by white Australians growing up, and potentially feeling isolated from her fathers peers and would have on occasion felt as though she never really fit in.  Too privileged to truly identify with the indigenous community and likely not really feeling part of that either and experiencing a level of rejection from that side of the family too. 

The end result is someone who never really feels accepted which might be why she is alligning herself with the indigenous struggle.  She would be the type that would be fighting vehemently on either side depending on whom was the one claiming mistreatment.

My brother is like minded to her.  He is 8 years older than me, and I think this problem was exacerbated by having our grandparents live with us and raise us.  They were born in the 1920's, emigrated in the 1950's then played a part in raising grandchildren 20 years later to live in a society that has effectively left a lot of those outdated values behind.  I find myself having to check and recheck whether or not I am living in the past, and to a degree catch myself doing so.  The problem that this creates, is a fragmented cultural identity from a time that no longer exists.  The Greek side of the culture is historic, not current, and the Greeks in Greece stopped behaving with the same values that we hold dear.   The Indigenous problem is a little bit different.  They are holding onto values that dont fit into a modern society where the values didnt evolve into it.  Where I can look at Modern Greece and say that they have moved away from it, so whats the point in me holding onto it, the Aboriginal and Torres Straight islanders have been forced to leave a lot of their old ways of life behind, because we delivered a more modern way of living.  They didnt get to choose it.  It was thrust upon them to a degree and Indigenous culture and way of living can be problematic in the modern world for various reasons including land ownership.

Its a real cultural issue where one must decide whether to hold onto these things, or accept that they are relics of a bygone era.  The problem there is some of them are identity defining and the Indigenous folk didnt get to choose.  I reckon I could write a thesis on this so Ill leave that there, and hopefully I have made my point well enough to not have to argue with anyone too vehemently.

On a human level, irrespective of where Lydia sits on culture and identity, she is wrong on many levels.


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 21, 2023, 09:43:05 am
It's something I struggle with at times in these discussions...and not just race.
The human makeup is pretty complex
Folks want to identify as 'one' or the 'other' rather than embracing everything that is part of their makeup.
The net result is that it creates a barrier.
You v Me.
I guess the danger for those of indigenous backgrounds is that there may be a fear (justified, no doubt) that their culture is swamped and lost if they don't fight to preserve it.
It's not a new debate.
I remember that it was a discussion when I was back in High School
Assimilation v Integration.

Assimilation- where the population is blended together and minority identity is eventually filterered out v Integration- where the individual cultures are able to maintain and celebrate their identity within a larger society.


We had the same subject matter at school in social studies but it was put more bluntly and differently and compared to the American Indians. The theme was when one side wins a war does the other side get a choice whether they assimilate or integrate and what responsibilities do the victors have. What has happened in other English colonized countries?
Of course I was schooled at the end of the white Australia policy era and Vietnam war so the curriculum was a tad skewed towards saluting Uncle Sam and whatever they were employing as social ethics and solutions.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 21, 2023, 10:52:27 am
Not really understanding her point of view there Baggers old mate.  I think I see part of my own struggle in hers and perhaps I am wrong with this, but the following is my assessment of this person:

Odds are she had a similar issue that I at times felt.  Too Indigenous to be accepted by white Australians growing up, and potentially feeling isolated from her fathers peers and would have on occasion felt as though she never really fit in.  Too privileged to truly identify with the indigenous community and likely not really feeling part of that either and experiencing a level of rejection from that side of the family too. 

The end result is someone who never really feels accepted which might be why she is alligning herself with the indigenous struggle.  She would be the type that would be fighting vehemently on either side depending on whom was the one claiming mistreatment.

My brother is like minded to her.  He is 8 years older than me, and I think this problem was exacerbated by having our grandparents live with us and raise us.  They were born in the 1920's, emigrated in the 1950's then played a part in raising grandchildren 20 years later to live in a society that has effectively left a lot of those outdated values behind.  I find myself having to check and recheck whether or not I am living in the past, and to a degree catch myself doing so.  The problem that this creates, is a fragmented cultural identity from a time that no longer exists.  The Greek side of the culture is historic, not current, and the Greeks in Greece stopped behaving with the same values that we hold dear.   The Indigenous problem is a little bit different.  They are holding onto values that dont fit into a modern society where the values didnt evolve into it.  Where I can look at Modern Greece and say that they have moved away from it, so whats the point in me holding onto it, the Aboriginal and Torres Straight islanders have been forced to leave a lot of their old ways of life behind, because we delivered a more modern way of living.  They didnt get to choose it.  It was thrust upon them to a degree and Indigenous culture and way of living can be problematic in the modern world for various reasons including land ownership.

Its a real cultural issue where one must decide whether to hold onto these things, or accept that they are relics of a bygone era.  The problem there is some of them are identity defining and the Indigenous folk didnt get to choose.  I reckon I could write a thesis on this so Ill leave that there, and hopefully I have made my point well enough to not have to argue with anyone too vehemently.

On a human level, irrespective of where Lydia sits on culture and identity, she is wrong on many levels.




Really appreciate your post, 3 Leos. Honest and insightful mate.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 21, 2023, 11:04:12 am
Not really understanding her point of view there Baggers old mate.  I think I see part of my own struggle in hers and perhaps I am wrong with this, but the following is my assessment of this person:

Odds are she had a similar issue that I at times felt.  Too Indigenous to be accepted by white Australians growing up, and potentially feeling isolated from her fathers peers and would have on occasion felt as though she never really fit in.  Too privileged to truly identify with the indigenous community and likely not really feeling part of that either and experiencing a level of rejection from that side of the family too. 

The end result is someone who never really feels accepted which might be why she is alligning herself with the indigenous struggle.  She would be the type that would be fighting vehemently on either side depending on whom was the one claiming mistreatment.

My brother is like minded to her.  He is 8 years older than me, and I think this problem was exacerbated by having our grandparents live with us and raise us.  They were born in the 1920's, emigrated in the 1950's then played a part in raising grandchildren 20 years later to live in a society that has effectively left a lot of those outdated values behind.  I find myself having to check and recheck whether or not I am living in the past, and to a degree catch myself doing so.  The problem that this creates, is a fragmented cultural identity from a time that no longer exists.  The Greek side of the culture is historic, not current, and the Greeks in Greece stopped behaving with the same values that we hold dear.   The Indigenous problem is a little bit different.  They are holding onto values that dont fit into a modern society where the values didnt evolve into it.  Where I can look at Modern Greece and say that they have moved away from it, so whats the point in me holding onto it, the Aboriginal and Torres Straight islanders have been forced to leave a lot of their old ways of life behind, because we delivered a more modern way of living.  They didnt get to choose it.  It was thrust upon them to a degree and Indigenous culture and way of living can be problematic in the modern world for various reasons including land ownership.

Its a real cultural issue where one must decide whether to hold onto these things, or accept that they are relics of a bygone era.  The problem there is some of them are identity defining and the Indigenous folk didnt get to choose.  I reckon I could write a thesis on this so Ill leave that there, and hopefully I have made my point well enough to not have to argue with anyone too vehemently.

On a human level, irrespective of where Lydia sits on culture and identity, she is wrong on many levels.



Top shelf ol mate. Reminds me of Justin Murphy who used to be called Coconut by the other Indigenous players (Black on the outside, White on the inside) because of his heritage (I think one of his parents was from the UK) .
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 21, 2023, 11:09:26 am
Not really understanding her point of view there Baggers old mate.  I think I see part of my own struggle in hers and perhaps I am wrong with this, but the following is my assessment of this person:

Odds are she had a similar issue that I at times felt.  Too Indigenous to be accepted by white Australians growing up, and potentially feeling isolated from her fathers peers and would have on occasion felt as though she never really fit in.  Too privileged to truly identify with the indigenous community and likely not really feeling part of that either and experiencing a level of rejection from that side of the family too. 

The end result is someone who never really feels accepted which might be why she is alligning herself with the indigenous struggle.  She would be the type that would be fighting vehemently on either side depending on whom was the one claiming mistreatment.

My brother is like minded to her.  He is 8 years older than me, and I think this problem was exacerbated by having our grandparents live with us and raise us.  They were born in the 1920's, emigrated in the 1950's then played a part in raising grandchildren 20 years later to live in a society that has effectively left a lot of those outdated values behind.  I find myself having to check and recheck whether or not I am living in the past, and to a degree catch myself doing so.  The problem that this creates, is a fragmented cultural identity from a time that no longer exists.  The Greek side of the culture is historic, not current, and the Greeks in Greece stopped behaving with the same values that we hold dear.   The Indigenous problem is a little bit different.  They are holding onto values that dont fit into a modern society where the values didnt evolve into it.  Where I can look at Modern Greece and say that they have moved away from it, so whats the point in me holding onto it, the Aboriginal and Torres Straight islanders have been forced to leave a lot of their old ways of life behind, because we delivered a more modern way of living.  They didnt get to choose it.  It was thrust upon them to a degree and Indigenous culture and way of living can be problematic in the modern world for various reasons including land ownership.

Its a real cultural issue where one must decide whether to hold onto these things, or accept that they are relics of a bygone era.  The problem there is some of them are identity defining and the Indigenous folk didnt get to choose.  I reckon I could write a thesis on this so Ill leave that there, and hopefully I have made my point well enough to not have to argue with anyone too vehemently.

On a human level, irrespective of where Lydia sits on culture and identity, she is wrong on many levels.

Thanks for sharing Thry.

Lidia has always been fully immersed in the Victorian Aboriginal community.  That's why I mentioned the difficulty of contrasting biological and cultural identity.  Many of her extended family have similar views, and are involved in the Pay the Rent Mob.  Her uncle, Robbie Thorpe, has been a Pay The Rent proponent since the 1970s and much of her rhetoric echoes his utterances from the 1970s.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 21, 2023, 11:16:15 am
Top shelf ol mate. Reminds me of Justin Murphy who used to be called Coconut by the other Indigenous players (Black on the outside, White on the inside) because of his heritage (I think one of his parents was from the UK) .

Coconut is a derogatory term generally applied to Indigenous folk who work for government or are not involved with their community.  It doesn't reflect genetic origins.  Very few Indigenous Victorians don't have mixed genetic origins.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 21, 2023, 11:21:02 am
I had a niece who has no Indigenous heritage but was fully immersed in Indigenous culture to the point they claimed to accept her as part of the mob, well at least to the point they could get a chunk of her pooled welfare cheques, and they shared drugs and alcohol with her as a minor which eventually lead to her death in her early 20s.

If Thorpe has been in that culture as an outsider, no matter what they may claim she will not be fully accepted. Through her close circle of friends she may think she is fully accepted, but behind closed doors a core sub-set of that culture will see her only ever in a utilitarian light, it's the ugly truth of the situation. Oddly, when we view her social media posts, it seems she is somehow drawn to a similar culture through the 1%ers she associates with, perhaps she is just gullible and blinded to manipulation through her closed minded focus on the cause whatever it may be!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on April 21, 2023, 11:25:42 am
I'm not talking about Pell's wrongful jailing, I'm talking about the Pell who knew of priest's violating young boys in Ballarat and did nothing about it accept to shuffle guilty priests around to other parishes to avoid negative publicity and law suits. Bolt chooses to ignore this when Pell admitted to it in a 60 Minutes feature.

Bob's foundation gave a character reference that helped keep Joffa out of prison.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on April 21, 2023, 11:47:58 am
Bob's foundation gave a character reference that helped keep Joffa out of prison.

The way this post is written could be suggestive of something that I'm not sure is quite right. The character references were written well in advance of these issues coming to light, when we all thought Corfe was a good bloke, because folks like us and Bob Macguire had no reason to think otherwise. One could read this post as implying that Macguire wrote his reference with the specific intention of getting a sex offender off the hook. The bigger issue is whether such references should be used at all.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-08/court-jeffrey-joffa-corfe-sentence-character-reference-alex-case/102070088

"The revelation that old references were provided to court without knowledge has sparked outrage and calls for prosecutors to appeal the sentence."
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 21, 2023, 12:04:02 pm
Courts should only accept references that are specifically written for the matter that is under consideration.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 21, 2023, 01:33:25 pm
Bob's foundation gave a character reference that helped keep Joffa out of prison.

Sorry, MBB, but I find the insinuation in your opinion more than offensive. I have worked with Fr Bob and regard him as a very dear friend. I loved the guy... an inspiration on so many levels. His integrity was impeccable. For you or anyone to besmirch his character by believing that he would help a sex offender get out of prison is mischievous and just plain wrong.

You should read Pauly's response to your post and understand the time lines of the character reference and when Corfe's 'activities' became public knowledge.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on April 21, 2023, 03:48:22 pm
Sorry, MBB, but I find the insinuation in your opinion more than offensive. I have worked with Fr Bob and regard him as a very dear friend. I loved the guy... an inspiration on so many levels. His integrity was impeccable. For you or anyone to besmirch his character by believing that he would help a sex offender get out of prison is mischievous and just plain wrong.

You should read Pauly's response to your post and understand the time lines of the character reference and when Corfe's 'activities' became public knowledge.

Many people find your comments on Pell offensive.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 21, 2023, 03:58:54 pm
The following are from the sentencing remarks from the county court: from his Honor Judge Mullay
MBB's remarks I dont think are out of order if you read this as written, its probably about the context of how well Father Bob
did really know Corfe and his history. Did Corfe tell Father Bob in the confession box for example what he did...who knows....?
Corfe got the suspended sentence due to a technicality in the law which allowed for suspended sentences for these crimes pre 2011 but the law was changed after that year, Corfe committed his atrocity in 2005 making him eligible for a suspended sentence and because he pleaded guilty.


40 As well as your work with the Anchorage for many years, you also became great
supporter of other charitable foundations. You became involved with the renowned
and successful Reclink football league, helping the homeless and vulnerable. A great
supporter of the down trodden, Father Bob Maguire knew you well and continues to
support you. He wrote to the court:
I, Father Bob Maguire, have known Joffa for approximately twenty years.
Joffa was of great support to my foundation in caring for the needs of the less fortunate
in the City of Port Phillip. One such area of support was with Reclink Football matches.
I am also aware of Joffa's community compassion and so offer my unconditional support
of Joffa.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 21, 2023, 03:59:50 pm
Many people find your comments on Pell offensive.

My comments on Pell are based on fact. And who are these many people?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 21, 2023, 04:39:50 pm
Good people like Fr Bob will see the good and help anyone. I know the criteria for Sainthood is to have performed a miracle or some crap like that, if instead one of the criteria was to have had a genuine care and given endless help to the less fortunate in the community, Fr Bob would be a Saint.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 21, 2023, 04:50:24 pm
Good people like Fr Bob will see the good and help anyone. I know the criteria for Sainthood is to have performed a miracle or some crap like that, if instead one of the criteria was to have had a genuine care and given endless help to the less fortunate in the community, Fr Bob would be a Saint.
In later years he became a bit gullible, easily led by those with less than genuine intent trying to use his profile for their own benefit.

An aside, I know someone who was engaged to drive him around a bit, he loved a chat, too much, so much so they had trouble getting him out of the car to go to his appointments. Whenever the car stopped he'd start chatting to people on the side of the road, they would move to him like moths to a flame, but he always treated people with care and respect whether they looked like bums or billionaires. btw., Fr Bob would not call a bum a bum, the only person he might call a bum would be a nefarious corporate type he caught taking advantage of the downtrodden, and even then it would take some provocation because he lived the creed of forgive and forget, he was always willing to give everyone a chance to make amends.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 21, 2023, 04:54:33 pm
In later years he became a bit gullible, easily led by those with less than genuine intent trying to use his profile for their own benefit.

An aside, I know someone who was engaged to drive him around a bit, he loved a chat, too much, so much so they had trouble getting him out of the car to go to his appointments. Whenever the car stopped he'd start chatting to people on the side of the road, they would move to him like moths to a flame, but he always treated people with care and respect whether they looked like bums or billionaires. btw., Fr Bob would not call a bum a bum, the only person he might call a bum would be a nefarious corporate type he caught taking advantage of the downtrodden, and even then it would take some provocation because he lived the creed of forgive and forget, he was always willing to give everyone a chance to make amends.
Perhaps he was seen as gullible and easily led, it was probably just his caring nature towards those who needed help no matter how troubled they were. Unconditional.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 21, 2023, 04:58:29 pm
Perhaps he was seen as gullible and easily led, it was probably just his caring nature towards those who needed help no matter how troubled they were. Unconditional.
While he was still fluent he was suffering dementia type symptoms in later years, but his fluency mask it to some degree, which was a bit sad.

You could be having a conversation with him and he'd start discussing something from 10 years back like it had just happened today, and he talked about people who had long ago moved on like they were still in the job. Even so I have nothing but respect for him.

It is interesting, I think a lot of his associates did not like him because he actually set the bar too high, he was all in for the clergy role, first and foremost, while they wanted to be or saw themselves as business magnates.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on April 21, 2023, 06:35:45 pm
Good people like Fr Bob will see the good and help anyone. I know the criteria for Sainthood is to have performed a miracle or some crap like that, if instead one of the criteria was to have had a genuine care and given endless help to the less fortunate in the community, Fr Bob would be a Saint.

Spot on, GTC. He would invite homeless folks into his Sth Melb parish and do anything for them. Saint? You bet. And as the Spotted One mentioned, he'd talk with anyone... and I mean anyone. His care and interest in the downtrodden was absolute. Yes, his peers were certainly intimidated by him, he was doing exactly what he believed his God would want.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 22, 2023, 04:10:55 pm
Apparently, Elon's Starship "experienced a rapid unscheduled disassembly ..."  ::)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 22, 2023, 04:32:42 pm
Apparently, Elon's Starship "experienced a rapid unscheduled disassembly ..."  ::)
Hasnt been a good week for Elon" Ziggy Stardust" Musk..his Tesla shares have tanked bigtime and now his Starship enterprise has
blown up after take off. I believe his staff were clapping Nth Korean style on the basis it was a good effort with his SpaceX junk just leaving the ground.....remind me never to buy a Tesla or purchase a joyride ticket on anything Musk has overseen.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on April 22, 2023, 04:37:14 pm
It cleared the tower....they just need to work on the bits after that....it's not rocket science.
Oh wait! :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on April 22, 2023, 06:14:08 pm
Apparently that was all they intended it to do according to what I've read.

Who knows.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 22, 2023, 06:28:34 pm
Apparently that was all they intended it to do according to what I've read.

Who knows.

In that case, the Twitter feed would have explained that the Starship "experienced a rapid scheduled disassembly …”

I suspect there’s some ask covering happening but you can’t untweet the original attempt to downplay an unexpected and uncontrolled explosion.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 22, 2023, 06:36:16 pm
It cleared the tower....they just need to work on the bits after that....it's not rocket science.
Oh wait! :o
My mates brother is an actual Rocket Scientist, they actually exist😂
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 22, 2023, 06:54:29 pm
My mates brother is an actual Rocket Scientist, they actually exist😂
Justin Clarke an ex player from Brisbane is a Rhodes Scholar and Aerospace Engineer(Rocket Scientist).....wouldnt be too often you could call an AFL player a rocket scientist.....reckon he might be a one off...😉
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on April 22, 2023, 08:25:54 pm
My mates brother is an actual Rocket Scientist, they actually exist😂

A friend of mine is a rocket scientist.  He came in very handy when we called in at Woomera during one of my outback touring adventures.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on April 27, 2023, 03:31:01 pm
Those of you who are regulars know I've related a story about the following to you before, when I tried to stop an African teenager from bashing an Asian teenager at a train station. I told the African kid to stop being racist, and he replied to me he couldn't be racist because he was black.

Now this is not the kids fault, he is indoctrinated with the belief that racism is unilateral.

And now we have a further confirmation that racism is in fact unilateral, broadcast by a high authority on commercial radio!
Quote
Senator Thorpe said it was not possible for her to be racist towards Australians who are not black.
“We cannot be racist to white people,” she said. “White people don’t fall into that category.
If only school had taught us the proper definition of racism, all of this kerfuffle could have been avoided.

If only the Tutsi had known this in Rwanda!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on April 27, 2023, 07:31:30 pm
Those of you who are regulars know I've related a story about the following to you before, when I tried to stop an African teenager from bashing an Asian teenager at a train station. I told the African kid to stop being racist, and he replied to me he couldn't be racist because he was black.

Now this is not the kids fault, he is indoctrinated with the belief that racism is unilateral.

And now we have a further confirmation that racism is in fact unilateral, broadcast by a high authority on commercial radio!If only school had taught us the proper definition of racism, all of this kerfuffle could have been avoided.

If only the Tutsi had known this in Rwanda!

I've been harping on about this for a while too.

By the definition, its a majority/minority thing.
I call BS on that stating that same thing said by the same person would be racist in 1 country, but not another. You'd need to do a head count to see who is in the minority to determine if its racist?? No.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 04, 2023, 11:20:53 pm
Everyday Lydia Thorpe is sounding more and more like I'd imagine a formative Adolf or Benito might have been, they started singing to the minority and before you know it shizen was released.

I won't be at all surprised to find out one day that she was secretly funded by Oligarch Putin or Emperor Xi.

I wonder if the same people who protested for freedom under Dan have their alarm bells going off whenever Thorpe opens her mouth, their silence would be such a contradiction?

I'm afraid the lass has gone off the rails, or is very very poorly advised.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on May 05, 2023, 07:02:25 am
Everyday Lydia Thorpe is sounding more and more like I'd imagine a formative Adolf or Benito might have been, they started singing to the minority and before you know it shizen was released.

I won't be at all surprised to find out one day that she was secretly funded by Oligarch Putin or Emperor Xi.

I wonder if the same people who protested for freedom under Dan have their alarm bells going off whenever Thorpe opens her mouth, their silence would be such a contradiction?

I'm afraid the lass has gone off the rails, or is very very poorly advised.

The real harm Thorpe does is to the causes she supposedly champions.
Folks look at her, don't get her message and just think "Wake up to yourself!"
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 05, 2023, 07:08:12 am
The real harm Thorpe does is to the causes she supposedly champions.
Folks look at her, don't get her message and just think "Wake up to yourself!"
There are Australian Treasures like the late Barry Humphries and then there are Australian Embarrassments like that thing.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 05, 2023, 07:53:51 am
The real harm Thorpe does is to the causes she supposedly champions.
Folks look at her, don't get her message and just think "Wake up to yourself!"
Yes, I can see that, even if it isn't the intent.

The majority hate extremism, and generally the majority also never accept the "Whatever it takes" attitude.

I'm not really judging this cause through the Thorpe lens, but lately watching that segment of politics is like watching a train wreck in slow motion, it's like political opponents have decided to give them enough rope to hang themselves.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on May 05, 2023, 09:50:03 am
I've always found it a bit strange that folks think demonstrative behaviour like shouting, shaming, telling people they're wrong, actually changes opinions of itself.

It may have some effect if the recipient respects you.
If there is respect, then to a point, folks may stay and listen to what you have to say and maybe take some of it on board.
If the respect isn't there, and it usually isn't if someone comes on too strong, it's likely they'll nod their heads, say "You might be right" and turn and walk way thinking as they go..."What a Fckwit."

Contrary to changing opinions the aggressive, demonstrative behaviour is likely to reinforce them.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on May 05, 2023, 03:58:47 pm
Most of the aggressive opinions come from the people who need to be most convinced of them anyway.

Sometimes I hear something ridiculous and have to call it out but usually I just shrug my shoulders and say whatevs.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 05, 2023, 05:04:38 pm
Contrary to changing opinions the aggressive, demonstrative behaviour is likely to reinforce them.
I had the very same thoughts about our appointment of Malthouse! ;D

At TAC Dev level we had multiple training sessions from "sports psychology" experts that told us kids no longer respond to the old ways, the abusive coach, they just switch off to people they perceive as a bully.

Lods you will know better than myself, but I believe they are taught as much at school in how to deal with and identify bullies and bullying, and the same learnings apply to a ranting football coach!

Which always surprises me when I think about Donald "Dunderhead" Trump being elected, Trump, Putin and Bolsonaro are almost bully archetypes!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on May 05, 2023, 05:10:30 pm
I had the very same thoughts about our appointment of Malthouse! ;D

At TAC Dev level we had multiple training sessions from "sports psychology" experts that told us kids no longer respond to the old ways, the abusive coach, they just switch off to people they perceive as a bully.

Lods you will know better than myself, but I believe they are taught as much at school in how to deal with and identify bullies and bullying, and the same learnings apply to a ranting football coach!

Which always surprises me when I think about Donald "Dunderhead" Trump being elected, Trump, Putin and Bolsonaro are almost bully archetypes!

Anytime you make a blanket statement about 'kids' or any other group, ir will not apply to everyone in it.

The 'old ways' will still work on some, but probably not as much as it would in the past.

As always, a 'horses for courses' approach works best.

But yes, kids today do learn about that stuff in school and its much better managed than why you or I went through the system.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on May 05, 2023, 06:04:34 pm
I had the very same thoughts about our appointment of Malthouse! ;D

At TAC Dev level we had multiple training sessions from "sports psychology" experts that told us kids no longer respond to the old ways, the abusive coach, they just switch off to people they perceive as a bully.

Lods you will know better than myself, but I believe they are taught as much at school in how to deal with and identify bullies and bullying, and the same learnings apply to a ranting football coach!

Which always surprises me when I think about Donald "Dunderhead" Trump being elected, Trump, Putin and Bolsonaro are almost bully archetypes!

They're doing the bullying education thing at pre-school now. My grandson was telling me all about bullies and can pick them on the TV shows. ;)  :)
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 06, 2023, 07:11:34 am
They're doing the bullying education thing at pre-school now. My grandson was telling me all about bullies and can pick them on the TV shows. ;)  :)
A lot of the way we chat to each other here would also be identified as bullying, yet for us it's just regular argh bargy, we can't stop change.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on May 15, 2023, 03:25:18 pm
When I went to school they told me that Saturn had 10 moons
I found out today I'd been lied to.
Saturn has at least 145 moons.
Don't trust the Science >:(
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 15, 2023, 03:50:45 pm
When I went to school they told me that Saturn had 10 moons
I found out today I'd been lied to.
Saturn has at least 145 moons.
Don't trust the Science >:(
Yep, full steam ahead to 451°F!

Anyway, I'm off home to have some Eggy Weggs and Steaky Wakes!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on May 15, 2023, 03:55:19 pm
Don't trust the Science

Science changes when more is known...eg Pluto, round(ish) earth
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 15, 2023, 03:56:40 pm
All knowledge is provisional.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 15, 2023, 04:00:38 pm
All knowledge is provisional.
What is knowledge if nothing more than knowing very well that we do not know!

The language as always is a problem, science is not forever yet it is often misrepresented with language that hints at permanence.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on May 15, 2023, 04:37:24 pm
All knowledge is provisional.

As a teacher over the years I've collected quite a few resources including text-books.
My thinking was that..."This is a good text. I'll use it with my own kids and grandkids."
I taught across the curriculum so I had books from a range of subjects.
Some have stood the test of time.
I could teach to the subject using most of the Maths texts despite some changes to the way that subject is now taught.
But the Science texts are pretty much redundant.
Even though a lot of the material is still accurate things like planetary info, periodic tables etc have undergone serious revision.
It would confuse the reader who wouldn't be sure what was right and what was inaccurate
History/Social Studies texts from the sixties and seventies have at their centre a UK/Empire bias.
Indigenous culture gets a page or two...if that.
Atlas and Geography texts have the same issues as Science. Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia no longer exist, and despite Putin's 'valiant' attempts the Soviet Union is now several independent countries. There are many new countries in Africa and Asia.
Yep,...knowledge is only what's known and accepted at the time, and subject to change at a later date.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on May 15, 2023, 04:40:51 pm
As a teacher over the years I've collected quite a few resources including text-books.
My thinking was that..."This is a good text. I'll use it with my own kids and grandkids."
I taught across the curriculum so I had books from a range of subjects.
Some have stood the test of time.
I could teach to the subject using most of the Maths texts despite some changes to the way that subject is now taught.
But the Science texts are pretty much redundant.
Even though a lot of the material is still accurate things like planetary info, periodic tables etc have undergone serious revision.
It would confuse the reader who wouldn't be sure what was right and what was inaccurate
History/Social Studies texts from the sixties and seventies have at their centre a UK/Empire bias.
Indigenous culture gets a page or two...if that.
Atlas and Geography texts have the same issues as Science. Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia no longer exist and despite Putin's valiant attempts the Soviet Union is now several independent countries. There are many new countries in Africa and Asia.
Yep,...knowledge is only what's known and accepted at the time, and subject to change at a later date.

This is why experts with current knowledge in the field are so valuable. This is why reliable sources are so valuable.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on May 15, 2023, 04:47:57 pm
This is why experts with current knowledge in the field are so valuable. This is why reliable sources are so valuable.

Certainly,
I guess the point though is that knowledge is fluid.
The experts need to keep abreast of their topic because what they now know will be replaced eventually by new ideas and thinking.
Today's texts are tomorrow's bird cage lining.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 15, 2023, 04:57:35 pm
I could teach to the subject using most of the Maths texts despite some changes to the way that subject is now taught.
But the Science texts are pretty much redundant.
Sort of but not really.

The measures have changed, but much of the fundamentals remain.

The Saturn example is a prime example of massively increased sensitivity to detecting and measuring light, the language could really have been so much better, perhaps 10 moons we can see, or 10 moons we can detect would have been more accurate.

How many moons does Earth have, what is a moon?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on May 15, 2023, 04:59:53 pm
Sort of but not really.

The measures have changed, but much of the fundamentals remain.

The Saturn example is a prime example of massively increased sensitivity to detecting and measuring light, the language could really have been so much better, perhaps 10 moons we can see, or 10 moons we can detect would have been more accurate.

How many moons does Earth have?

Eight billion and one... if everyone bends over.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 15, 2023, 05:11:25 pm
Lods, there is something intuitive about some of the old ways and old knowledge.

When I was studying Astrophysics I found turn of the century books invaluable, that is 1900s not 2000s, they described the universe in the language and knowledge base of the time, and in some cases these simpler descriptions greatly assisted understanding even if they were obsolete.

Last week I was trying to explain some logarithmic and derivative concepts to associates, the irrelevance of minutia and the importance of scale. Modern PCs and Calcs are not really of much help, they just deliver ever expanding number of digits which as we know from science and engineering will be largely irrelevant. So bizarrely, I brought a slide rule into work and they immediately understood that orders of magnitude relative to fractional errors. There is something very intuitive about the old ways.

I read a while back that there is new education research that suggests students will get better outcomes through a return to books, pens and paper, I'm not surprised.

Knowledge that is obsolete isn't necessarily worthless.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on May 15, 2023, 06:10:15 pm
When I went to school they told me that Saturn had 10 moons
I found out today I'd been lied to.
Saturn has at least 145 moons.
Don't trust the Science >:(

Not lied too.

I doubt those texts said "10 and only 10 moons with zero possibility of finding any others.".....yet that is the readers digest version.

Science certainly can be trusted, you just need to realise that we are getting better at furthering our understanding of it. It is very rare were science does a 180 on its beliefs. You will never find that Saturn doesn't have any moons at all.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on May 15, 2023, 06:17:22 pm
Not lied too.

I doubt those texts said "10 and only 10 moons with zero possibility of finding any others.".....yet that is the readers digest version.

Science certainly can be trusted, you just need to realise that we are getting better at furthering our understanding of it. It is very rare were science does a 180 on its beliefs. You will never find that Saturn doesn't have any moons at all.
It's what the teacher told me.
If I'd said 12 on  my test I would have got it wrong :(
Maybe it's science teachers that can't be trusted.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on May 15, 2023, 06:19:09 pm
It's what the teacher told me.
If I'd said 12 on  my test I would have got it wrong

Depends on how the question was written to how right the answer is.

A good teacher would right....How many moons have been discovered orbiting Saturn? 10 would be right, 12 would be wrong.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on May 15, 2023, 06:33:53 pm
I'm not sure I still have any science texts from the time, I'll have a look.
(A big blue book called "Understanding Science" was the 'go to' text.)
But that information was usually presented in table form.

Distance from the sun.
Length of days
Satellites etc
I'm not sure whether then 'Known satellite' qualification was evident.

It's not that important. I was just having a bit of fun with it and making the point that what the general view is now with topics of Science, History and Geography is subject to change as knowledge increases.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on May 15, 2023, 06:44:05 pm
I'm not sure I still have any science texts from the time, I'll have a look.
But that information was usually presented in table form.

Distance from the sun.
Length of days
Satellites etc
I'm not sure whether then 'Known satellite' qualification was evident.

It's not that important I was just having a bit of fun with it and making the point that what the general view is now with topics of Science, History and Geography is subject to change as knowledge increases.

I feel your pain though.

I used to spend a lot of time at my grandparents when i was a primary school kid. Wasn't much for a young kid to do there, but they had a nice collection of encyclopedias which i use to thumb through. A favourite topic of mine at the time was the solar system and very much how many moons a planet had was a piece of information you would find for each planet.

Couple years later, my parents got some encyclopedias and used to do the same, except my 'memory' mustn't have been very good because it all seemed different. Took me a while to work out it was......about the time newer books came out with more updated information.

So i learned pretty early that the science was ever evolving and the 'answers' at any given time was a snapshot in time based on the information available.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on May 15, 2023, 06:53:28 pm
What set me off was there was an MSN article on the newsfeed today that said Saturn had gone past Jupiter as the planet with the most satellites.

https://www.sciencealert.com/over-60-unknown-moons-have-been-identified-orbiting-saturn

I just thought it was funny that 50 years ago we only had about a dozen
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on May 15, 2023, 07:05:13 pm
What set me off was there was an MSN article on the newsfeed today that said Saturn had gone past Jupiter as the planet with the most satellites.

https://www.sciencealert.com/over-60-unknown-moons-have-been-identified-orbiting-saturn

I just thought it was funny that 50 years ago we only had about a dozen

The kicker is this....
Quote
Interestingly enough, the criteria for defining a moon, or natural satellite, are fairly broad. There's no shape or mass or diameter or composition requirement; the object in question just needs to have a stable orbit around another, larger body that isn't a star

Given both planets have their own set of rings, which, obviously, orbit the moon, the number is more likely going to increase by several orders of magnitude.
Until they update what a moon is in terms of size, the numbers will explode. Similarly, thats what they did to poor pluto when the decided to define what a planet wise, Pluto didn't fit the bill.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 16, 2023, 08:32:50 am
What set me off was there was an MSN article on the newsfeed today that said Saturn had gone past Jupiter as the planet with the most satellites.

https://www.sciencealert.com/over-60-unknown-moons-have-been-identified-orbiting-saturn

I just thought it was funny that 50 years ago we only had about a dozen
Like the change in the definition of Pluto, you might want to investigate "What is a Moon, and how it is defined?"

Technically these bodies are satellites, whether a satellite is natural or man made makes little difference, nobody "in the trade" calls them moons, moon is outreach / media speak things that go around a planet.

It's a bit like when referring to stars the media call them suns, there is really only one moon, moon is a satellite of earth!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on May 16, 2023, 09:10:46 am
I prefer Luna.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on May 16, 2023, 09:20:39 am
Like the change in the definition of Pluto, you might want to investigate "What is a Moon, and how it is defined?"

Technically these bodies are satellites, whether a satellite is natural or man made makes little difference, nobody "in the trade" calls them moons, moon is outreach / media speak things that go around a planet.

It's a bit like when referring to stars the media call them suns, there is really only one moon, moon is a satellite of earth!

Moon Scientists can call them whatever they like.
We've already established scientists are not the font of all wisdom and are still learning.

Big M =Moon-Earth's one
Little m=moon

National Geographic
"A moon is an object that orbits a planet or something else that is not a star. Besides planets, moons can circle dwarf planets, large asteroids, and other bodies. Objects that orbit other objects are also called satellites, so moons are sometimes called natural satellites. People have launched many artificial satellites into orbit around Earth, but these are not considered moons."
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 16, 2023, 11:59:57 am
Moon Scientists can call them whatever they like.
We've already established scientists are not the font of all wisdom and are still learning.

Big M =Moon-Earth's one
Little m=moon

National Geographic
"A moon is an object that orbits a planet or something else that is not a star. Besides planets, moons can circle dwarf planets, large asteroids, and other bodies. Objects that orbit other objects are also called satellites, so moons are sometimes called natural satellites. People have launched many artificial satellites into orbit around Earth, but these are not considered moons."
So then I presume the must be a definition of when "a satellite" becomes "a moon", care to share, moons as a subset of satellites I presume?

The ambiguity is in the language not in the science, there are rules and definitions set by the Planetary Society and the IAU, they do not get used by mainstream media and publishing because editors think they are too confusing, the editors think the general public isn't apparently smart enough to deal with it, so press releases and announcements get dumbed down.

Because those definitions change with new knowledge, the counts can change accordingly, a bit like when a new species is found, we are finding new species every day faster than we find new sexualities apparently! :o

I surveyed the Astrophysics archives and found about 6:1 "satellite" versus "moon", most references to moon appear in the abstracts for reasons already discussed.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on May 16, 2023, 05:17:31 pm
Like the change in the definition of Pluto, you might want to investigate "What is a Moon, and how it is defined?"

Technically these bodies are satellites, whether a satellite is natural or man made makes little difference, nobody "in the trade" calls them moons, moon is outreach / media speak things that go around a planet.

It's a bit like when referring to stars the media call them suns, there is really only one moon, moon is a satellite of earth!

You didn't read my post before this one of yours, or the article highlighted.

Quote
But it's not sufficient just to spot an object near a planet and declare that you've found a new moon. The object needs to be tracked – ideally for several orbits – so that its path can be analyzed to determine if it's stable. So while shifting and stacking can reveal faint objects, taking many such observations is needed to confirm moon status.
The number of 'moons' is dependent on how many of them have been tracked and deemed stable enough to be a moon.

As i said earlier, given both Jupiter and Saturn have rings, obviously made up of rocks and/or ice, the number of 'moons' will increase exponentially once we work out how to track them properly.

All of them orbit a planet.
All of them would be deemed stable.
Size doesn't matter.
So all of them are essentially moons under the current 'definition'.
I suspect a new one will be made soon ala Drawf planets to exclude a lot of these recently found moons.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on May 16, 2023, 09:40:18 pm

All of them orbit a planet.
All of them would be deemed stable.
Size doesn't matter.
So all of them are essentially moons under the current 'definition'.
I suspect a new one will be made soon ala Drawf planets to exclude a lot of these recently found moons.

I see to recall a lot of conjecture about Phobos and Deimos, Mars two companions… Phobos (I think…) is potato shaped and as such (ie not spherical) was theorized as potentially being a captured passing space rock and therefore not a Moon (Earth like) but merely a moon in orbit.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 18, 2023, 04:15:27 pm
So who's this then (from the HS):

Deadline: Troubled AFL star winning few friends with gangster routine

This troubled AFL star doesn’t seem to respond well to feedback on field, warning rivals who sledge him that he’s going to shoot them.
Mark Buttler
 and
Andrew Rule
May 18, 2023 - 12:13PM
The footballer’s gangster routine would make Jules from Pulp Fiction proud.
Gun player shoots from the lip

A troubled footy star whose career isn’t going as planned would be better off looking for the Sherrin instead of trouble.

If rivals start gobbing off, it might be best for him to learn the value of turning the other cheek — as opposed to his present approach of telling them he’s going to shoot them.

This gangsta routine is more evidence that our AFL hero’s skinny possession stats are considerably higher than his IQ.


The article goes on...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 18, 2023, 04:21:50 pm
So who's this then (from the HS):
Firstly, you know whoever it is they are a fan of Tupac and Yeezy, a numpty who thinks the Monster Gangsta Rappers are the real deal, and not actually actors who are busy getting makeup and pedicures before a performance!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on May 18, 2023, 05:12:12 pm
its either Dow or Weitering.



:D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on May 28, 2023, 01:00:33 pm
Oh Lidia, oh, Lidia, say have you met Lidia
Oh, Lidia, litigious lady

As much as some of the debate about football on here can turn bizarre, it's go nothing on real life!
Title: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 02, 2023, 11:12:04 am
It's going to be very interesting to see where the political will takes this Ben Roberts-Smith situation. I'm not sure at all that in modern war and terrorism the scenario was a cut and dry as the media wants to make out.

I read a transcript that was allegedly from one of his SAS comrades, I gather it won't ever be published because it sits outside the media narrative. The soldier talked about how they expected to perish trapped in a fire fight, then Roberts-Smith seemingly targeted a couple of seemingly innocent unarmed individuals, and the fighting miraculously stopped. His comrades then managed to extricate themselves from an otherwise very bad situation.

Retrospectively Roberts-Smith was accused of firing on unarmed civilians, but for the life on me I can't reconcile that with the outcome that results in the enemy downing weapons. For example, doesn't the same act as allegedly done by Russia only strengthen the Ukraine's resolve?

In an era when the enemy can be a young female in a burca wearing an IED, I'm not sure how you can possibly fight a conventional war.

It reads to me like Roberts-Smith was particularly skilled at identifying the master puppeteers and targeting them strategically. We can never know if he got it right or wrong, but I'm not even sure I know what is right or wrong in 2000s!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 05, 2023, 06:57:45 pm
A self confessed republican named as the 30th Governor of Victoria? Is it just me who's farked or did I miss the memo that the world has officially gone mad?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on June 05, 2023, 07:02:20 pm
A self confessed republican named as the 30th Governor of Victoria? Is it just me who's farked or did I miss the memo that the world has officially gone mad?
Amazing how people's attitudes can change when gongs or prestigious appointments are on offer. 🤫🤣
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 05, 2023, 07:34:48 pm
A self confessed republican named as the 30th Governor of Victoria? Is it just me who's farked or did I miss the memo that the world has officially gone mad?

Dame Jacinda Ardern ;D

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/former-new-zealand-leader-jacinda-ardern-honored-as-a-dame/ar-AA1c83LM

Quote
Former New Zealand leader Jacinda Ardern, who stepped down from her post earlier this year, has been made a dame in one of the country’s highest honors.

Prime Minister Chris Hipkins announced the appointment on Monday to mark the King’s Birthday public holiday, with Ardern among 182 recipients receiving various honors for their contributions to the country.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 05, 2023, 08:17:42 pm
Dame Jacinda Ardern ;D

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/former-new-zealand-leader-jacinda-ardern-honored-as-a-dame/ar-AA1c83LM

I dont know much about Ardern and whether or not she was a republican or not but she was nominated for something because of her contribution, she could choose to reject it if she felt strongly enough against it. For one to accept a position representing the very people you don't believe should be our "head of state" is surely taking the piss.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 05, 2023, 08:32:18 pm
A self confessed republican named as the 30th Governor of Victoria? Is it just me who's farked or did I miss the memo that the world has officially gone mad?
Just Dan being Dan and appointing a mates wife......the real insane bit was what she was earning at Monash...$1.37 million a year, think she will drop back to 485k being the Gov
but I guess its a 5 year deal and all that pomp and ceremony will ease that pay cut a bit.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on June 05, 2023, 10:45:38 pm
What a household - ex vice chancellor of Uni of Melb married to ex Vice chancellor of Monash Uni.

Things have to be going pretty pear shaped if the Gov is reporting to the palace.  Other correspondence is really a box ticking exercise. Not really an issue - still need to be able to give consent to legislation and a huge ceremonial role.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 15, 2023, 09:46:18 am
Apparently the way you file through doors into parliament now determines whether or not you are identified as a sexual deviant!

Lydia Thorpe needs help now, is this latest outburst  / accusation possibly the sign of a drug induced psychosis? :o

This is the problem caused by two modern aspects of society, the first is "wokism" being allowed unrestrained influence with the legal system asserting the definition of being offended sits in the purview of the beholder. I was shouted down as alarmist in this very forum when I stated this is where things were heading, yet here we are! :o

The second is society and media accepting frequently repeated uncorroborated accusations as some form of proof. But no matter how often or how loudly a lie is repeated, it always remains a lie, regardless of whether it is repeated by a street urchin or a US President!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Professer E on June 15, 2023, 10:38:10 am
I'm having trouble following the Wilkinson dramas but none of it reads well
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 15, 2023, 12:03:07 pm
You can argue that sexual assaulters and abusers should be locked up and the key thrown away.
You won't get a lot of argument.
But I've always found it just a bit disturbing that alleged offenders are often judged and convicted before it gets anywhere near a courtroom,by folks who have no first hand knowledge of the situation, and feel the offender must be guilty because they look a little creepy.

I don't know what happened in the Higgins case.
There are probably only two people who know for sure....and I'm not even certain they know.
But the number of high profile folks, including the PM of the time who were 'definite' in the guilt of the accused derailed any possibilty of a transparent, fair trial.
Morrison actually apologised to Higgins in Parliament before any trial.
She was partnered with Grace Tame as the face of abuse.
Either some of these folks had access to information that wasn't publicly available, or they acted irresponsibly in such a manner that compromised the trial, and  meant that neither Higgins or Lehrmann recieved justice.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 15, 2023, 01:14:52 pm
It's not just 3rd parties that are shooting down the cases, the accusations and arguments are becoming Trumpesque the moment something looks a tad questionable, the automatic response seems to be to become louder and more bizarre.

If the little lie suddenly looks wrong, make a bigger lie so that the little lie doesn't seem so bad.

It's a bit like a pre-schooler shouting louder and louder to get their way, PERHAPS I SHOULD BE TYPING IN ALL CAPS.

The result is I can't believe anything anymore, I'm afraid it's all bullsh1t!

PS: It reminds me of the experiences of a relative on their first day of Uni. Having moved down from the country to the city, they walked across the central square of the institute which was the obvious gathering place for protests and rallies, and in their ignorance walked the wrong line or through the wrong space only to be immediately set upon with a dusting of line marking chalk and a chant of rapist!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on June 19, 2023, 03:52:05 pm
It seems that Lidia wasn't telling porkies after all.

The problem is that we still have a bloke who can't keep his hands to himself drawing a senator's salary  >:( 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 19, 2023, 07:10:31 pm
It seems that Lidia wasn't telling porkies after all.

The problem is that we still have a bloke who can't keep his hands to himself drawing a senator's salary  >:(
So you're asserting Van is the intimidating stairwell man, intimidating Thorpe who threw punches at Federal police armed with tasers and side arms, and laid on the road in front of trams, yet Van scared her into silence! I'm calling that bullsh1t!

Van might be a creep, but walking behind someone is not sexual assault!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Macca37 on June 19, 2023, 11:20:59 pm
The problem with any accusation made of sexual misconduct relying purely on "he said, she said" evidence, given the current environment, will always leave the accused at a disadvantage in the court of public opinion.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 20, 2023, 07:01:49 am
The problem with any accusation made of sexual misconduct relying purely on "he said, she said" evidence, given the current environment, will always leave the accused at a disadvantage in the court of public opinion.
So if got this right, Thorpe comes and accuses this guy of sexual assault then asked to retract it. Then another lady comes and says "Oh yeah, I forgot, he touched me up also" followed by another that says "Yeah me too". Dutton decides you need to resign. No investigation, no referring the matter to police, nothing. As my dad used to say, "Good Country this one".
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on June 20, 2023, 07:54:37 am
So if got this right, Thorpe comes and accuses this guy of sexual assault then asked to retract it. Then another lady comes and says "Oh yeah, I forgot, he touched me up also" followed by another that says "Yeah me too". Dutton decides you need to resign. No investigation, no referring the matter to police, nothing. As my dad used to say, "Good Country this one".

It would seem on the face of it that his colleagues had their suspicions, but as you say there’s no process and no one is facing any proper scrutiny or responsibility.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 20, 2023, 10:47:52 am
It would seem on the face of it that his colleagues had their suspicions, but as you say there’s no process and no one is facing any proper scrutiny or responsibility.
Politics is a power struggle, there are many motives for actions beyond the obvious, this might be nothing more than an opportunity to remove a threat or shuffle in some allies.

Regardless, a suspicion is not an action, no matter what other evidence exists it cannot be acceptable to make stuff up just to get an outcome. If things head down that path, we accept rumours and baseless allegations, there is no stopping the slide into anarchy.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 20, 2023, 10:52:35 am
this might be nothing more than an opportunity to remove a threat or shuffle in some allies.
Even if its not, it scary to think that it could easily be so. All it takes for a couple of people to collude and bingo, gonski.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 20, 2023, 10:55:23 am
Even if its not, it scary to think that it could easily be so. All it takes for a couple of people to collude and bingo, gonski.
That is politics though.

Society has brought this on itself, we've let a scenario develop in which the loudest lunatic becomes the spokesperson and we never let the facts get in the way!

Making things even worse Trump has set the ground rules, and while he got away with it courtesy of deep pockets and lawyers, now it seems any nutbag can follow his lead and become a the town crier.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 20, 2023, 12:06:29 pm
If you really want to know how fecked up society has become, and by society I mean politics and big business, have a read  of this;

Quote
THE FRUIT UNION Suisse is 111 years old. For most of its history, it has had as its symbol a red apple with a white cross—the Swiss national flag superimposed on one of its most common fruits. But the group, the oldest and largest fruit farmer’s organization in Switzerland, worries it might have to change its logo, because Apple, the tech giant, is trying to gain intellectual property rights over depictions of apples, the fruit.

“We have a hard time understanding this, because it’s not like they’re trying to protect their bitten apple,” Fruit Union Suisse director Jimmy Mariéthoz says, referring to the company’s iconic logo. “Their objective here is really to own the rights to an actual apple, which, for us, is something that is really almost universal … that should be free for everyone to use.”

While the case has left Swiss fruit growers puzzled, it’s part of a global trend. According to the World Intellectual Property Organization’s records, Apple has made similar requests to dozens of IP authorities around the world, with varying degrees of success. Authorities in Japan, Turkey, Israel, and Armenia have acquiesced. Apple’s quest to own the IP rights of something as generic as a fruit speaks to the dynamics of a flourishing global IP rights industry, which encourages companies to compete obsessively over trademarks they don’t really need.

Apple did not respond to requests for comment.
I assert society is sick because we are either indifferent, accept or ignore this behaviour, and perhaps we even think it's a laugh, April Fools maybe. I suppose until we get a bill or blacklisted for sending someone a banana emoji we won't take it seriously! They are just gammon!

As an aside, I read the other day that a European Gay Rights group is trying to trademark rainbows.

What will we do if Google patents breathing? :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on June 20, 2023, 12:46:38 pm
So if got this right, Thorpe comes and accuses this guy of sexual assault then asked to retract it. Then another lady comes and says "Oh yeah, I forgot, he touched me up also" followed by another that says "Yeah me too". Dutton decides you need to resign. No investigation, no referring the matter to police, nothing. As my dad used to say, "Good Country this one".

Thorpe had to retract because naming Van was prevented by Senate standing orders.  She then repeated her account in the Senate without naming Van.  Thorpe complained about Van's conduct at the time of the incidents and he was moved to an office further away from Thorpe's.

The two Liberal Senators also reported Van's inapproriate behaviour at the time so their complaints are on record, as is Thorpe's.  However, no action was taken apart from Van being told to stop groping his colleagues.  And that's the problem; rather than taking the complaints seriously, Van is told to watch himself, is moved to a different office and nothing is done about his inappropriate behaviour.  Lidia knocks the scab off and Dutton is made aware of the three incidents, perhaps more, and decides that Van has to go.

Former Senator Stoker provides a solid justification of her decision re-visit Van's inappropriate behaviour towards her: https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/why-i-said-metoo-about-david-van-20230618-p5dhh8
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on June 20, 2023, 12:59:53 pm
I'm afraid that all I can take out of this is that collectively they are targeting a creep.

But despite that it doesn't mean I believe everything the accusers say, other than they have stated what they needed to state to put the creep under the spotlight, perhaps he is a creep but two wrongs do not make a right!

Some / many of the politicians involved in this are legal professionals, what does this tell us about the legal system?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on June 20, 2023, 02:12:34 pm
I'm afraid that all I can take out of this is that collectively they are targeting a creep.

But despite that it doesn't mean I believe everything the accusers say, other than they have stated what they needed to state to put the creep under the spotlight, perhaps he is a creep but two wrongs do not make a right!

Some / many of the politicians involved in this are legal professionals, what does this tell us about the legal system?

I think that it tells us a lot more about the culture at Parliament House and in political parties generally.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 20, 2023, 04:05:24 pm
That is politics though.

Society has brought this on itself, we've let a scenario develop in which the loudest lunatic becomes the spokesperson and we never let the facts get in the way!

Making things even worse Trump has set the ground rules, and while he got away with it courtesy of deep pockets and lawyers, now it seems any nutbag can follow his lead and become a the town crier.
No mate, its not politics, its life/society now as we know it. If I wanted someone gone from a particular setting for craps and giggles, all I need to do is collude with one or two other like minded Kents and with no basis or investigation, said person can be gone.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 20, 2023, 04:07:19 pm
Thorpe had to retract because naming Van was prevented by Senate standing orders.  She then repeated her account in the Senate without naming Van.  Thorpe complained about Van's conduct at the time of the incidents and he was moved to an office further away from Thorpe's.

The two Liberal Senators also reported Van's inapproriate behaviour at the time so their complaints are on record, as is Thorpe's.  However, no action was taken apart from Van being told to stop groping his colleagues.  And that's the problem; rather than taking the complaints seriously, Van is told to watch himself, is moved to a different office and nothing is done about his inappropriate behaviour.  Lidia knocks the scab off and Dutton is made aware of the three incidents, perhaps more, and decides that Van has to go.

Former Senator Stoker provides a solid justification of her decision re-visit Van's inappropriate behaviour towards her: https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/why-i-said-metoo-about-david-van-20230618-p5dhh8
The matters were dealt with, grandstanding Dutton has assholed this bloke to make himself look good. He has made himself look like a right goose in my book.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on June 20, 2023, 05:22:09 pm
If you really want to know how fecked up society has become, and by society I mean politics and big business, have a read  of this;
I assert society is sick because we are either indifferent, accept or ignore this behaviour, and perhaps we even think it's a laugh, April Fools maybe. I suppose until we get a bill or blacklisted for sending someone a banana emoji we won't take it seriously! They are just gammon!

As an aside, I read the other day that a European Gay Rights group is trying to trademark rainbows.

What will we do if Google patents breathing? :o

If i was the suisse company i'd countersue Apple for using a logo they came up with 111 years ago and demand they cease and desist immediately.

That'd get the lawsuit dropped pretty quickly i'd imagine.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on June 20, 2023, 06:19:36 pm
Do the idiotic climate activists who block traffic realise that they do more harm to their cause than benefit?
Very few who are stuck in those gridlocks are thinking "good on them. I'll think more about climate issues in future".
They are actually putting people at risk.
Folks with health issues, pregnancy, job interviews, all sorts of different scenarios that could be life changing.
The cause is valid, the method of protest is not.
Fines are useless...six months in gaol may have them thinking of a different and more appropriate methods of promoting their views.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 20, 2023, 06:26:07 pm
Do the idiotic climate activists who block traffic realise that they do more harm to their cause than benefit?
Very few who are stuck in those gridlocks are thinking "good on them. I'll think more about climate issues in future".
They are actually putting people at risk.
Folks with health issues, pregnancy, job interviews, all sorts of different scenarios that could be life changing.
The cause is valid, the method of protest is not.
Fines are useless...six months in gaol may have them thinking of a different and more appropriate methods of promoting their views.
Agree...you cant be blocking Ambos, Police, Fire Appliances etc and putting lives at risk, also these idiots who protest by hanging off bridges, buildings and then need to be rescued, Id be charging them full fees for that service although most of these activists cant pay so they would be doing a lot of community service if it was me handing out the fines.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on June 20, 2023, 08:09:33 pm
Do the idiotic climate activists who block traffic realise that they do more harm to their cause than benefit?
Very few who are stuck in those gridlocks are thinking "good on them. I'll think more about climate issues in future".
They are actually putting people at risk.
Folks with health issues, pregnancy, job interviews, all sorts of different scenarios that could be life changing.
The cause is valid, the method of protest is not.
Fines are useless...six months in gaol may have them thinking of a different and more appropriate methods of promoting their views.

The fact traffic is actually sitting there, expending excessive amount of fumes into the atmosphere while not moving is ironic no?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on July 17, 2023, 04:39:54 pm

King Charles plays the Blues ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAfEOyHAQIQ
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 17, 2023, 05:13:45 pm
Dunno if anyone has followed the Charlie Teo story, whilst he does come across as an arrogant prick, I shudder to think how many lives he has saved. It seems to me now that for a couple cases whereby the outcomes weren't great, he has been taken to the cleaners by the establishment. Now I don't know the exact details of the two cases but I'll tell you one thing. Touch wood however if I am ever struck down with one of the terminal illnesses of the type he specialises in, he'd be my go to man to take the risks on me that no one else will to give me a shot a more time on this Earth. The way I see it, if you're calling on him for his services, the outlook is pretty bleak anyway, what more damage can he possibly do? Yes his fees are said to be outrageous by some but I find the treatment of people like him pretty ordinary.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on July 17, 2023, 05:14:34 pm
Do the idiotic climate activists who block traffic realise that they do more harm to their cause than benefit?
Very few who are stuck in those gridlocks are thinking "good on them. I'll think more about climate issues in future".
They are actually putting people at risk.
Folks with health issues, pregnancy, job interviews, all sorts of different scenarios that could be life changing.
The cause is valid, the method of protest is not.
Fines are useless...six months in gaol may have them thinking of a different and more appropriate methods of promoting their views.

When you hear their spokespersons try to justify the disruption of ordinary folk's lives, it's pretty obvious that they're not graduates from marketing school.  Haranguing folk and making their lives more difficult rarely wins arguments.

I saw a post on Facebook (so it must be true) about two climate activists who tried to disrupt a Beethoven concert in Hamburg by gluing their hands to a rail on the musicians' podium.  The rail wasn't fixed to the podium and it was removed and relocated to the foyer, with the two activists firmly attached.

Being passionate about a good cause is fine, but you still need empathy, understanding and common sense to get your message across.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 17, 2023, 05:40:28 pm
Dunno if anyone has followed the Charlie Teo story, whilst he does come across as an arrogant prick, I shudder to think how many lives he has saved. It seems to me now that for a couple cases whereby the outcomes weren't great, he has been taken to the cleaners by the establishment. Now I don't know the exact details of the two cases but I'll tell you one thing. Touch wood however if I am ever struck down with one of the terminal illnesses of the type he specialises in, he'd be my go to man to take the risks on me that no one else will to give me a shot a more time on this Earth. The way I see it, if you're calling on him for his services, the outlook is pretty bleak anyway, what more damage can he possibly do? Yes his fees are said to be outrageous by some but I find the treatment of people like him pretty ordinary.
Will be plying his trade in Hong Kong/China is the rumour, tend to agree with your thoughts GTC. Mavericks dont tend to last very long in the Aus medical system and the Nuero Surgery field is one where its very team orientated and usually several surgeons(up to four) work on each case and formulate a plan rather than just one doing his own thing. The public dont know that and think its just one surgeon doing all the work. Also Private surgeons offer their skills to the public system for nothing as there are not enough to go around both systems. In Teo's case he wants to be Independent as well as stay in the Private system, normally I would have a problem with that but the reality is you need the odd Maverick developing new techniques and pioneering new surgery and I believe he had funding from a private backer to work in his own private clinic however he cant now given everything he does will have to be ticked off by a controlling panel of other surgeons and as I said its rumoured he will operate overseas rather than stay in Australia.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on July 17, 2023, 06:17:33 pm
I think that Charlie Teo is a tall poppy based on what I've read about it.  The tell is that he's being criticused for offering a cure and then not being able to deliver.

I dont think any medical professional guarantees outcomes.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on July 17, 2023, 07:16:53 pm
Dunno if anyone has followed the Charlie Teo story, whilst he does come across as an arrogant prick, I shudder to think how many lives he has saved. It seems to me now that for a couple cases whereby the outcomes weren't great, he has been taken to the cleaners by the establishment. Now I don't know the exact details of the two cases but I'll tell you one thing. Touch wood however if I am ever struck down with one of the terminal illnesses of the type he specialises in, he'd be my go to man to take the risks on me that no one else will to give me a shot a more time on this Earth. The way I see it, if you're calling on him for his services, the outlook is pretty bleak anyway, what more damage can he possibly do? Yes his fees are said to be outrageous by some but I find the treatment of people like him pretty ordinary.

I'm not too fussed about Charlie Teo.

Mrs DJC's neurosurgeon is a ripper; both as a person and in practising his craft.  I reckon that if he couldn't sort out your brainbox, no-one could.

It is a very team-oriented field.  Mrs DJC's surgical treatment was mapped out by the neurosurgeon, her neurologist and a radiologist.  The surgery was performed by the neurosurgeon, an assistant, a general surgeon, with the mandatory anaesthetist of course.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 01, 2023, 12:08:22 pm
I've read somewhere that QANTAS CEO Alan Joyce is departing with some massive bonus, I think it surfaced as part of the Senate investigations. Now it's surfacing he's been leading an organisation that has systematically ripped off regular citizens, some having been dudded of once in a lifetime holidays by dodgy QANTAS ticket sales for ghost flights (Flights that no longer or never existed!)

In the meantime, it's reported this Joyce gets a bonus of up to $27M, that might also be a media beat up, but is any bonus at all acceptable in the circumstance?

I'd be clamping Joyce's bank account and making sure he doesn't leave the country before the senate investigation is finished!

We kibosh politicians over a bottle of Grange or some other undeclared gift, and this Joyce is going to pocket million$ for managing a company that is basically conducting corporatised theft.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on September 01, 2023, 12:21:32 pm
This is typical of everything that has happened over the last few years.  Don't get me started about public organisations and the "covid credit card".

Ultimately, the Australian super standards are such, that these profits get delivered to shareholders, that prop up super annuation, which means that the government get to take money from the pension fund, and the better Australian public listed companies perform, the better for everyone.

That means, that as bad as all this is, its only thieving from people to give back to them anyway and pay a bunch of people in the process, which stimulates the economy and creates employment.

Ultimately when push comes to shove, when you hear the government going soft in this regards, its going to cost more to go hard, than its worth.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 01, 2023, 12:25:19 pm
Ultimately when push comes to shove, when you hear the government going soft in this regards, its going to cost more to go hard, than its worth.
So are you asserting that somehow the saving$ justify the crime?

There are many legitimate ways QANTAS could have raised funds to survive COVID, helped by politicians if necessary, without stooping to theft!

PS; Have QANTAS just "survived" the pandemic, didn't it announce a huge profit recently off the back of slashing thousands of workers due to pandemic duress?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on September 01, 2023, 01:02:26 pm
So are you asserting that somehow the saving$ justify the crime?

There are many legitimate ways QANTAS could have raised funds to survive COVID, helped by politicians if necessary, without stooping to theft!

PS; Have QANTAS just "survived" the pandemic, didn't it announce a huge profit recently off the back of slashing thousands of workers due to pandemic duress?

no, what Im asserting is that when there is a financial incentive to go soft, they will because ultimately, there is no gain in having to take money off Qantas, and by extension its shareholders.

When Qantas shares are propping up the super funds, that means better pension outcomes for people on managed super funds.  Make them pay back covid payments, means costing jobs, means potentially sinking the last "Australian" international airline, means those costs get pushed back onto future travellers, means sinking share prices, means sinking super funds, means more penisoners means less money in government coffers, and ultimately a poorer quality of life all around.

I live in reality.  If the cost of doing something outweighs the benefit in doing so, why do it?

Because morally or legally thats the right thing to do?


What Im saying is prepare for the wet lettuce leaf!

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 01, 2023, 01:13:58 pm
I live in reality.  If the cost of doing something outweighs the benefit in doing so, why do it?

Because morally or legally thats the right thing to do?
The public already think of politicians a crooked, you have been a very loud exponent of as much during the pandemic.

In that context and inclusive of executives, how can you rationalise a circumstance that says if you do enough public good($$$) we'll ignore, forget or forgive your crime?

If the world took that perspective of "reality" it would artificially create a circumstance that is open to crooks and charlatans to manipulate in their favour without consequence. They could take their "bonus" as long as they generate billion$ in the process all will be forgiven, isn't that Putin, Trump, Xi or Bolsonaro?

Alan Joyce is not Robin Hood, his organisation has been ripping off the little people to give to the wealthy, and making many more everyday types redundant in the process, many of those most badly hurt will have little or no direct or indirect stock in QANTAS.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on September 01, 2023, 01:35:53 pm
Joyce has timed his departure very well and will be somewhere else when the sh1t hits the fan. 

QANTAS will be hit very hard for their fraudulent behaviour.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 01, 2023, 04:34:45 pm
Super funds make their money out of the Miners and Big banks....Qantas are small fry in terms of profits and dividends and wouldnt feature in the top 20 holdings of most super funds and if they did would be at a small weighting.
Qantas havent paid a dividend for 4 years.....
The Government couldnt allow Qatar Airlines to access to internal Aus routes and feck up the status quo and hit the Qantas bottom line straight after CoVid. If Albanese had presided over the demise of Qantas profits causing job losses and possible loss of the iconic Aus Airline as we know it he would have been hung, drawn and quartered so I get he why he refused competition for Qantas and protected jobs etc at the expense of higher air fares for the public . The case of selling airfares for cancelled flights is another issue and imho a management issue rather than an airline issue. Joyce and those at the top making those decisions need fining individually rather than punishing the airline as a whole and having it crippled with what looks like a fine around 300-600 million.
The previous highest fine for corporate skullduggery in Aus was around $125 million for the morally bankrupt Volkswagen Group so the ACCC are really wanting to go hard at Qantas and I cant see the company being able to continue in its present form if it cops a fine of that nature which will in turn affect tourism and airline travel in Aus imo.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 05, 2023, 10:16:58 am
Joyce has timed his departure very well and will be somewhere else when the sh1t hits the fan. 

QANTAS will be hit very hard for their fraudulent behaviour.
So it begins, and the morons in the media are celebrating Joyce's early departure like it's a punishment! :o

It's like giving the kid who started all the shizen a hall pass before you line the rest up for cuts!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 05, 2023, 12:54:34 pm
I see Landcruiser 70s are going all electric with some 200 on order for use in and around mining sites across Australia.

It won't be long before this filters down into surrounding towns as mining companies start to pop up charging points here and there.

This is sure to cause some gnashing of teeth around the traps!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 05, 2023, 03:59:40 pm
I see Landcruiser 70s are going all electric with some 200 on order for use in and around mining sites across Australia.

It won't be long before this filters down into surrounding towns as mining companies start to pop up charging points here and there.

This is sure to cause some gnashing of teeth around the traps!
I hope the vehicles are all IS.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on September 05, 2023, 05:12:02 pm
I see Landcruiser 70s are going all electric with some 200 on order for use in and around mining sites across Australia.

It won't be long before this filters down into surrounding towns as mining companies start to pop up charging points here and there.

This is sure to cause some gnashing of teeth around the traps!

Wasn't this talked about 12 months ago?

Supposedly 70-100 on order for the mines IIRC. Didn't think this was new news.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 05, 2023, 05:20:13 pm
Wasn't this talked about 12 months ago?

Supposedly 70-100 on order for the mines IIRC. Didn't think this was new news.
I thought the 70s going all electric was a new development, I think we talked about Toorak tractors in the past.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on September 05, 2023, 05:24:51 pm
I thought the 70s going all electric was a new development, I think we talked about Toorak tractors in the past.

Well maybe i read it elsewhere, but i thought it was discussed on here.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on September 05, 2023, 06:18:23 pm
I see Landcruiser 70s are going all electric with some 200 on order for use in and around mining sites across Australia.

It won't be long before this filters down into surrounding towns as mining companies start to pop up charging points here and there.

This is sure to cause some gnashing of teeth around the traps!

70 Series Landcruiser EV conversions were available back when I bought my V8 turbo diesel  O:-)  

In fact, I think we had a discussion about a 70 Series EV breaking a dynamometer during testing last year.

Of course, they were priced way out of the ordinary punter's reach and were really only accessible to mining companies and very wealthy pastoralists.

If I remember correctly, the company went off shore after a couple of years, then ended up in partnership with Toyota.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 05, 2023, 06:54:05 pm
I thought the 70s going all electric was a new development, I think we talked about Toorak tractors in the past.
BHP actually went lighter vehicles like Hilux that would pass safety rating tests, they also pulled bullbars off their vehicles because they were a safety hazard rather than a help.
These Landcruiser conversions must be to drive around Mining sites only I would have thought.....
After being scrapped in the USA after poor sales the Landcruiser is making a return with a turbo powered hybrid which is set to be released in 2024 so I presume that model would also make its way down to Aus which should please Landcruiser fanatics.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on September 07, 2023, 01:31:04 pm
BHP actually went lighter vehicles like Hilux that would pass safety rating tests, they also pulled bullbars off their vehicles because they were a safety hazard rather than a help.
These Landcruiser conversions must be to drive around Mining sites only I would have thought.....
After being scrapped in the USA after poor sales the Landcruiser is making a return with a turbo powered hybrid which is set to be released in 2024 so I presume that model would also make its way down to Aus which should please Landcruiser fanatics.

The 300 Series was never offered for sale in the US because it was considered too expensive for the market but the Lexus LX began appearing in showrooms in 2022.  However, at least one 300 Series has been spotted undergoing testing.  As there's currently an 18 month waiting list for 300 Series, Australian customers won't be happy if production is diverted to the US market.

The 2024 70 Series will continue the turbo diesel 4.5 litre V8 and 5 speed manual transmission combination but there will be an option for a 2.8 litre turbo diesel four cylinder with a six speed automatic transmission.

SEA has a lucrative deal to convert 8500 Landcruisers and Hi-Luxes to EV for the mining industry by 2028 ... and they have bullbars  :)  

I believe there's little or no capacity to accommodate other customers.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 12, 2023, 10:33:55 am
I was doing general web searching relating to EVs and came across some interesting figures that really should be front of mind when moving from combustion to 100% EV. While I won't quote hard numbers I will convey the general concept because it at least poses some interesting questions.

The first is the carbon budget in the production of a car, it's often not discussed in the green debate and it seems for a very good reason. While the carbon emissions reduction are valid arguments for EV versus Combustion, it's only viable on the assumption that the carbon budget for the production of the two vehicle variants is equivalent. It turns out this equivalence assumption is grossly wrong and the devil is in the detail.

The issue it seems is the huge number of special or rare materials used in production of EVs just smashes the carbon budget out of the stadium. From "dirt to dump", the carbon deficit for an EV could be as high as 18x that of a combustion car, even conservative assessments put it at greater than 10x.

Now keep in mind, that debates on "emissions" seem to flip context between total emissions and user subject to the perspective of those debating, but in real world only total matters,

This really makes a folly of trading in your perfectly good combustion vehicle for a new EV and claiming you are doing your part for the environment. In the UK a recent study put the break even at 75,000 kilometres using idealised / green energy sources, which are far from normal, apparently using real world sources to charge your vehicle likely means it will never break even with the carbon budget associated with it's full carbon cycle. The report suggested to even get close to that 75,000km break even point for personal EVs the UK needs to start building net zero nuclear power plants at never before seen rates.

All the assumptions are based on people driving the combustion vehicle for at least 50,000km before the upgrade, if you hardly use your combustion vehicle and still upgrade you are probably an environmental vandal!

It gets worse when you realise that the lifecycle of the EV mechanicals far exceed the lifecycle of the EV battery, issues which are nearly always omitted from debates about the best technologies. Some huge percentage of the total carbon budget in the EV is encapsulated in the battery, some claim as much as 50% of total emissions, and the battery has a much shorter life than the bulk of the vehicle.

So to get to your 75,0000km while still having a vehicle with a reasonable range on a full charge, how many batteries will you go through, and does each battery add 37,500km to the break even in the carbon budget?

Now I concede the numbers might be exaggerated, but let's say the battery carbon budget is 25%. I tend to believe the 75,000km, so that's an extra 18,000km for every battery swap. How long do batteries last, well it seems it depends on what you accept as a range on a full charge, but I can't see people operating EVs like they operate their iPhone!

One argument I came across against this doom asserted, but "We are going to recycle batteries", the assertion being a recycled battery has a lower carbon deficit. However, it seems that while recycling saves wasting a limited resource is always more carbon / energy intensive than mining / consuming fresh resources. Hard to imagine, but when you start to think about reverse engineering the encapsulated materials it's pretty much becomes obvious. The issue of recycling it seems is at odds with the priorities of safety and reliability.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 12, 2023, 03:47:01 pm
China have a problem with owners dumping EV vehicles now the Govt have dropped subsidies etc...
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 12, 2023, 04:51:18 pm
China have a problem with owners dumping EV vehicles now the Govt have dropped subsidies etc...
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/
It's interesting @ElwoodBlues1 I've mates in the UK who are furious about the changes there as well.

They invested heavily in EVs as company vehicles on the basis they would be recharging at no cost for life using the M25 supercharge stops, but then the definitions of "for life" and "recharging" seem to have changed.

Now they only can get access to low power slow recharging for free, which means sitting in a freeway hub for 2hrs while your Tesla recharges at a snails pace. If you want to use the superchargers and be gone in 15mins they have to now pay for something they previously got for free! As company vehicles it's obviously untenable to slow charge, and in the meantime all the holiday makers and pensioners fill up the free spots so they have no choice but to pay!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 12, 2023, 05:06:34 pm
It's interesting @ElwoodBlues1 I've mates in the UK who are furious about the changes there as well.

They invested heavily in EVs as company vehicles on the basis they would be recharging at no cost for life using the M25 supercharge stops, but then the definitions of "for life" and "recharging" seems to have changed.

Now they only can get access to low power slow recharging for free, which means sitting in a freeway hub for 2hrs while your Tesla recharges at a snails pace. If you want to use the superchargers and be gone in 15mins they have to now pay for something they previously got for free! As company vehicles it's obviously untenable to slow charge, and in the meantime all the holiday makers and pensioners fill up the free spots so they have no choice but to pay!
Its like Drug dealers LP...the first hit is free and then you got to pay once they have you hooked. EV's wont be a free hit charging wise everywhere like everyone thinks. I'll give you another tip too...the Vic State Govt want to have every home fully electric to meet net zero emission targets and not just ban new homes from having a gas connection but they dont want to foot the bill. There is talk of a possible $2k-$5k charge to households to make it happen down the line...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on September 12, 2023, 06:43:27 pm
Another EV lithium battery fire:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-12/sydney-airport-lithium-ion-battery-causes-fire/102846146?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Macca37 on September 12, 2023, 08:45:17 pm
Also what is not discussed is the cost of a replacement battery for an EV.  A few weeks ago a Porsche Taycan owner in England was concerned he had damaged the underside covering of the battery and queried the price of a replacement battery.

The Porsche dealership quoted him 30,000 pounds sterling!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: crashlander on September 12, 2023, 09:29:29 pm
For all that electric cars might be the future, they are definitely not for today.
[1] The do not have the performance of a petrol car, although they have improved their acceleration.
[2] They do not have the range of a petrol car. They are only reasonable for use in a city and then only for short to medium drives. Sitting in traffic for hours chews up battery life.
[3] They are far too expensive for the average traveller.
[4] Their repairs are going to be extra expensive for the foreseeable future.
[5] The recharging system is simply inadequate, and at least 2 generations of technology away from being within an order of magnitude of recharging capability of a petrol car.
[6] The infrastructure to support electric cars doesn't exist and is a long ay from being even remotely accessible for mass usage.
[7] Any car parts are far too expensive: a car made from spare parts of close to five times the cost of an ordinary car. But the parts for an electric car are significantly worse. Not only are they hard to come by and ridiculously expensive, but most mechanics and not trained in their usage.
[8] The technology behind the batteries leaves much to be desired. Honestly, the batteries have improved by maybe 2 orders of magnitude, but they are still a long way from being a finished product. people use them because they are the best presently available, not because they are really very good. They will have to improve by at least 2 further degrees of magnitude before they are reliable and safe for the long term.
[9] Electric cars, especially the batteries, use rare earths and Lithium, for which the world has not yet come to terms with. The expensive metals tend not to be reused, nor do they tend to be easily reusable. It means that the rare earths, in particular, are always in short supply. It also causes states like China to get access to these materials whatever the cost, mostly from African nations. It makes the way the Americans and British behaved in the 1st petrol boom look positively pedestrian.

I am really sad to write this, because I'm a huge supporter of high tech. But we have raced into electric cars before the product was fit for mass usage. They won't be ready for mass usage in my lifetime.
I understand that people want to reduce greenhouse gases; it is a good idea to do so. But this technology is not ready.

Sadly, no other technology seems to be ready either. As a SF fanatic, I wanted a Hydrogen powered car when I was a kid, and I wanted one in the 1970's, when oil supplies were no longer as reliable as they once were. The idea of having only water vapour as an exhaust appealed to be greatly.
However, there appears to have been very little research into making a decent Hydrogen powered car. The chemistry is well understood: NASA has been using variations on it for over 70 years. But it is still very much a technology in its infancy.
I also have issues about the way some companies appear to be making their Hydrogen. Converting fossil fuels into Hydrogen may be cheap, but where does the carbon go? The process that I've read about is not without major drawbacks.

Solar panels are a lot cheaper and more efficient these days, but they still don't get better than 15% efficiency (usually a LOT less) and the sun shines directly on them for only a few hours per day. Even so, I had solar cells on my roof when I lived in Bendigo. I would also have invested in a battery if I hadn't moved. It makes sense.
Using solar power on a scale to supply a rapidly growing technological society isn't going to work: human energy usage is increasing exponentially, while supply is not.
I like the idea of Solar Power Satellites, and Australia is placed in the perfect spot to be the main ground station for such a system. Like a dam, all the costs are in the original construction. After that there is minimal maintenance. It does require a space-based industry, but the upsides are phenomenal.
Another way of generating huge gobs of power is something the Japanese are trialling: using the difference in temperature between deep seas water and close to surface water to generate electricity. It is a guaranteed no-polluting system: the effluent is sea water at a middle of the range temperature. This water could be used to farm fish, a much more practical way of getting fish than our present hunting method is. Over-fishing has led to some fish becoming close to extinction: farming the fish you want is a much more sustainable method of production. By letting water of different temperature exist at different spots would allow zones where fish could farmed easily, with the nutrients coming from the ocean floor, where they are presently unavailable for life on this planet.

I have always been a fan of the nuclear option, but fission power is merely a stop-gap until fusion power comes along. Fusion Reactors now make a little more energy than they require, but this technology is probably a century away from being ready for industrial use.

Sorry to rant, but the anti-tech messages I see around today really irritated me more than usual.  Probably because of lack of sleep.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on September 12, 2023, 09:38:14 pm
For all that electric cars might be the future, they are definitely not for today.
[1] The do not have the performance of a petrol car, although they have improved their acceleration.
[2] They do not have the range of a petrol car. They are only reasonable for use in a city and then only for short to medium drives. Sitting in traffic for hours chews up battery life.
[3] They are far too expensive for the average traveller.
[4] Their repairs are going to be extra expensive for the foreseeable future.
[5] The recharging system is simply inadequate, and at least 2 generations of technology away from being within an order of magnitude of recharging capability of a petrol car.
[6] The infrastructure to support electric cars doesn't exist and is a long ay from being even remotely accessible for mass usage.
[7] Any car parts are far too expensive: a car made from spare parts of close to five times the cost of an ordinary car. But the parts for an electric car are significantly worse. Not only are they hard to come by and ridiculously expensive, but most mechanics and not trained in their usage.
[8] The technology behind the batteries leaves much to be desired. Honestly, the batteries have improved by maybe 2 orders of magnitude, but they are still a long way from being a finished product. people use them because they are the best presently available, not because they are really very good. They will have to improve by at least 2 further degrees of magnitude before they are reliable and safe for the long term.
[9] Electric cars, especially the batteries, use rare earths and Lithium, for which the world has not yet come to terms with. The expensive metals tend not to be reused, nor do they tend to be easily reusable. It means that the rare earths, in particular, are always in short supply. It also causes states like China to get access to these materials whatever the cost, mostly from African nations. It makes the way the Americans and British behaved in the 1st petrol boom look positively pedestrian.

I am really sad to write this, because I'm a huge supporter of high tech. But we have raced into electric cars before the product was fit for mass usage. They won't be ready for mass usage in my lifetime.
I understand that people want to reduce greenhouse gases; it is a good idea to do so. But this technology is not ready.

Sadly, no other technology seems to be ready either. As a SF fanatic, I wanted a Hydrogen powered car when I was a kid, and I wanted one in the 1970's, when oil supplies were no longer as reliable as they once were. The idea of having only water vapour as an exhaust appealed to be greatly.
However, there appears to have been very little research into making a decent Hydrogen powered car. The chemistry is well understood: NASA has been using variations on it for over 70 years. But it is still very much a technology in its infancy.
I also have issues about the way some companies appear to be making their Hydrogen. Converting fossil fuels into Hydrogen may be cheap, but where does the carbon go? The process that I've read about is not without major drawbacks.

Solar panels are a lot cheaper and more efficient these days, but they still don't get better than 15% efficiency (usually a LOT less) and the sun shines directly on them for only a few hours per day. Even so, I had solar cells on my roof when I lived in Bendigo. I would also have invested in a battery if I hadn't moved. It makes sense.
Using solar power on a scale to supply a rapidly growing technological society isn't going to work: human energy usage is increasing exponentially, while supply is not.
I like the idea of Solar Power Satellites, and Australia is placed in the perfect spot to be the main ground station for such a system. Like a dam, all the costs are in the original construction. After that there is minimal maintenance. It does require a space-based industry, but the upsides are phenomenal.
Another way of generating huge gobs of power is something the Japanese are trialling: using the difference in temperature between deep seas water and close to surface water to generate electricity. It is a guaranteed no-polluting system: the effluent is sea water at a middle of the range temperature. This water could be used to farm fish, a much more practical way of getting fish than our present hunting method is. Over-fishing has led to some fish becoming close to extinction: farming the fish you want is a much more sustainable method of production. By letting water of different temperature exist at different spots would allow zones where fish could farmed easily, with the nutrients coming from the ocean floor, where they are presently unavailable for life on this planet.

I have always been a fan of the nuclear option, but fission power is merely a stop-gap until fusion power comes along. Fusion Reactors now make a little more energy than they require, but this technology is probably a century away from being ready for industrial use.

Sorry to rant, but the anti-tech messages I see around today really irritated me more than usual.  Probably because of lack of sleep.

I dont disagree with much here, but I've seen acceleration on these that are miles ahead of any other car.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on September 12, 2023, 10:07:47 pm
I dont disagree with much here, but I've seen acceleration on these that are miles ahead of any other car.

Not only acceleration but torque.  4WD EVs should be far more capable than IC 4WDs and they don't require high and low range transfer cases.  That's a significant weight saving, less moving parts and easier for the driver.

I’m convinced that we have to move away from IC vehicles but I don’t think that EVs are the answer, at least with the technology we have now.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on September 12, 2023, 10:23:36 pm
The problem I have here is that we should be looking at EV, and other technologies, but the concept is being smashed by profiteering, the corporates have sh1t in the pool and are still trying to sell us season passes!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 12, 2023, 10:26:57 pm
I dont disagree with much here, but I've seen acceleration on these that are miles ahead of any other car.
Electric vehicles have instant Torque so physics says they have to be quicker initially...ICE's have a longer powertrain which also slows energy transfer.
Teslas model Y's are zero -100kmh in 3.7s, service intervals are also much longer so service costs should be cheaper.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on October 16, 2023, 10:16:50 am
https://theconversation.com/voice-referendum-results-point-to-shifting-faultlines-in-australian-politics-215673
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on October 16, 2023, 11:02:33 am
https://theconversation.com/how-did-the-media-perform-on-the-voice-referendum-lets-talk-about-truth-telling-and-impartiality-214961
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on October 16, 2023, 11:07:20 am
https://theconversation.com/how-did-the-media-perform-on-the-voice-referendum-lets-talk-about-truth-telling-and-impartiality-214961
A very good read. Thank you, Pauly.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on October 16, 2023, 11:08:55 am
A very good read. Thank you, Pauly.

No worries Baggers. I agree. Very good article IMO.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on October 16, 2023, 12:37:27 pm
https://theconversation.com/voice-referendum-results-point-to-shifting-faultlines-in-australian-politics-215673


Quote
Polling on the Voice referendum identified divisions that seemed to indicate similar chinks in the country’s progressive constituency. According to those polls, support for the Voice was strongest among the highly educated and the young – those mainly clustered in inner urban areas.

On the other hand, opponents of the Voice were more likely to live in the outer suburbs and regional and rural areas. They had lower education attainment, and were older. The results of Saturday’s referendum were consistent with these findings.

I've seen this a couple of times.

Highly educated and young, inner urban areas voted -Yes
Lower educated and old, rural and regional areas voted- No

But there is another demographic at play there.
Rural, regional, outer urban people are much more likely to have contact, experience and impact with indigenous people.

I suspect there are not the same issues for the folk in the Teal seats of North Sydney as there are for the indigenous and non indigenous people of western NSW.

There is this impression that things like crime, alcoholism and health issues are only a problem for the indigenous communities, but these things can impact on the whole town or region.

These are 'all people' problems requiring 'all people' actions and support.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on October 16, 2023, 01:32:25 pm
I certainly accept that it would be harder for folks living among indigenous people, who may be subject to negative behaviours from those indigenous folks, to see past all that and try to understand the deeper structural issues at play. I get that if your car has been vandalised a few times, you may not be feeling particularly charitable or generous towards our First Nation brothers and sisters. But that's not seeing the forest for the trees IMO. The Voice was supposed to play a part in addressing these issues, at least as I understand it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on October 16, 2023, 01:43:21 pm
I certainly accept that it would be harder for folks living among indigenous people, who may be subject to negative behaviours from those indigenous folks, to see past all that and try to understand the deeper structural issues at play. I get that if your car has been vandalised a few times, you may not be feeling particularly charitable or generous towards our First Nation brothers and sisters. But that's not seeing the forest for the trees IMO. The Voice was supposed to play a part in addressing these issues, at least as I understand it.

I wasn't really trying to emphasise the anger that some in the regional communities feel if they have been adversely affected.
Though no doubt that is a real and potent factor for some people
It was more to point out that to suggest they don't have an understanding of those issues is completely wrong.
They have a great understanding of where the problems lie...probably a greater appreciation than those living in the more affluent suburbs of Sydney and Melbourne.
So in voting they probably feel that an extra voice isn't what's needed....it's somebody to actually do something to address those problems.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on October 16, 2023, 01:53:32 pm
I wasn't really trying to emphasise the anger that some in the regional communities feel if they have been adversely affected.
Though no doubt that is a real and potent factor for some people
It was more to point out that to suggest they don't have an understanding of those issues is completely wrong.
They have a great understanding of where the problems lie...probably a greater appreciation than those living in the more affluent suburbs of Sydney and Melbourne.
So in voting they probably feel that an extra voice isn't what's needed....it's somebody to actually do something to address those problems.

Yes, I'm not so sure that simply living among a certain group of people somehow makes you an expert in understanding where the problems lie. I've not seen that happen much. I think the best way forward and the best way of understanding the issues is to study them with proper frameworks and proper methodologies, proper resources and the like. It is, in my opinion, no great surprise that academics who actually study the issues, and earn their stripes from doing so, are all pretty much in favour. I've never been in favour of the idea that the person in the street somehow becomes knowledgable simply by a kind of osmosis. No doubt the rural types who have regular interactions with First Nation people would have some knowledge, maybe over and above the inner city types, but whether that knowledge translates into something constructive is IMO, another matter entirely.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on October 16, 2023, 02:15:49 pm
@PaulP "constructive" being the key point from your post above.
Yourself and Lods have made some excellent points.
Up here the no vote was definitely as a result of peoples negative interactions.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on October 16, 2023, 02:24:23 pm
@PaulP "constructive" being the key point from your post above.
Yourself and Lods have made some excellent points.
Up here the no vote was definitely as a result of peoples negative interactions.

Yes. I certainly understand that we all have a limit, and you may get to a point where you give them the proverbial finger and decide you're not really going to help them. I wish there was an easy answer to this. I imagine there are long standing hostilities on both sides. It's easy and tokenistic for folks like me to say you need to look beyond that. The only indigenous folks I've been exposed to (through my wife's work) are inner city corporate / semi corporate types (almost yuppies but not quite), and I imagine they would be rather different to the First nations folks you would encounter.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on October 16, 2023, 02:27:02 pm
No doubt knowing doesn't always translate to constructive outcomes.
In fact sometimes (often) the suggested solutions are a bit over the top.

The thing is it's all 'academic' now.
The voice won't be part of the constitution.
That won't be revisited.
But I suspect that within a very short time there will be a 'voice' of some description legislated.
And hopefully the debate as to the best way forward to close the gap in standards in a number of social areas will be given a boost, resulting in some genuine positive outcomes.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on October 16, 2023, 02:42:22 pm
There are four states/territories that already have Indigenous Advisory bodies:
 - ACT
 - Vic
 - SA - they legislated their own Voice - first elections to this body are in March
 - Qld

This may be due to the Feds palming off some of the outcomes of closing the gap to the States.

I believe all States are heading down the treaty path - some further down the track than others - don't think there are any in place.

I don't really know what treaty is and tbh can't be bothered finding out.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: PaulP on October 16, 2023, 02:53:55 pm
......................

I don't really know what treaty is and tbh can't be bothered finding out.

https://theconversation.com/what-actually-is-a-treaty-what-could-it-mean-for-indigenous-people-200261

This gives a little detail. It was written a few months ago, and certain hopes / assumptions were made about the Voice that did not eventuate.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on October 25, 2023, 08:10:14 am
Some of you might come across some posts discussing changes to US FDA approvals on some commonly used cold and flu medicine, it seems a side-effect of many companies doing large scale trials of the efficacy of compounds in treating COVID or it's symptoms has exposed that they have components that are useless for the purpose advertised. I won't list them here, but pretty much all the big name brands have products that are affected.

To me this is a good thing, but ...............

It has exposed just another example of how weird life in the USA has become. In most cases it's a single component of those medicines that turns out to not do what it is claimed, but the medicines still have a range of efficacy delivered from the other components in the compound.

The US FDA still allows homeopathic, naturopath or pseudoscience compounds to remain sitting on the shelf, and for the packaging of those products to make outlandish claims. Like diluted 500x for maximum efficacy!

So commercial pharmaceuticals that actually do something are to be withdrawn, while the snake oil remains.

Snake Oil 1
Reality 0

This of course affects us all, because most countries globally just fall into line with basic FDA guidelines. So you might find your favourite cold and flu medicine being pulled form the shelves, but you'll still be able to purchase a jar of "500x Diluted Megatrength Devil's Ar5e Miracle Cure" so it is all good! ;D
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on October 25, 2023, 08:21:28 am
My knowledge in this area is far from complete.

My understanding is the 'snake oil' treatments don't actually need any kind of FDA approval. Supplements and the like that use natural ingredients are not required to undergo the same 'stress tests' that your chemical compound stuff does. As a result, they can claim whatever the hell they want and there is no scope for holding them accountable.

Alternatively, there is so many new things coming out that DO require testing, that they physically cannot test everything, and its claims, and maybe 5% of the stuff gets tested appropriately.

Both scenarios are very worrying.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on October 25, 2023, 01:11:05 pm
My knowledge in this area is far from complete.

My understanding is the 'snake oil' treatments don't actually need any kind of FDA approval. Supplements and the like that use natural ingredients are not required to undergo the same 'stress tests' that your chemical compound stuff does. As a result, they can claim whatever the hell they want and there is no scope for holding them accountable.

Alternatively, there is so many new things coming out that DO require testing, that they physically cannot test everything, and its claims, and maybe 5% of the stuff gets tested appropriately.

Both scenarios are very worrying.
I think you are correct, in that the Snake Oil companies are using loopholes that allow there product to sit alongside without the same requirements.

If Big Pharma tried to do the same social media would smash reputations so it has no choice but to comply.

The problem as I see it is that the Trump era has unleashed a new generation of influential Luddite's just looking for an uprising / dollar, some are fundamentalist while others are more Pete Evan's or Gwyneth Paltrow like looking to milk followers.

The US system seems to be migrating towards "If you are stupid enough to believe it, then it's your fault!".
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 25, 2023, 09:17:46 pm
Many of our Melbourne residents will have seen the tobacco shop fire bombings reported on the news services over the last few months. Here's a tip for the Victoria Police, if you want to catch the purps in the act, sit yourselves covertly across the road from tobacco shops that haven't been firebombed yet and you'll get your man/men. It can't be that hard can it?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on October 25, 2023, 09:32:43 pm
As much as I agree gi2c, here is the issue.  Cost benefit analysis.

The cost of staking out a joint every day, until it gets hit, outweighs the benefit of doing so.

At least that's how government departments do things.  They will simply point to insurance companies paying out as a reason why not to do it, and they also will have a fair idea whom is behind it anyway.  These won't be random acts of violence but targeted organised crime.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theage.com.au/national/victoria/tobacco-shop-set-ablaze-in-another-suspicious-fire-in-melbourne-s-north-20231025-p5ees8.html
A tobacco store in Melbourne’s north has been set ablaze for a second time as police continue to probe a spate of targeted arson attacks linked to organised crime wars over the illicit tobacco trade.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 25, 2023, 09:44:56 pm
As much as I agree gi2c, here is the issue.  Cost benefit analysis.

The cost of staking out a joint every day, until it gets hit, outweighs the benefit of doing so.

At least that's how government departments do things.  They will simply point to insurance companies paying out as a reason why not to do it, and they also will have a fair idea whom is behind it anyway.  These won't be random acts of violence but targeted organised crime.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theage.com.au/national/victoria/tobacco-shop-set-ablaze-in-another-suspicious-fire-in-melbourne-s-north-20231025-p5ees8.html
A tobacco store in Melbourne’s north has been set ablaze for a second time as police continue to probe a spate of targeted arson attacks linked to organised crime wars over the illicit tobacco trade.

Agree, its all about resources vs results in policing from what I have been told by friends and relo's in the job, and unfortunately there isnt enough money/staff to throw at every crime on mass and they have to think what the end results look like and what the priorities are at the minute.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on October 30, 2023, 07:39:42 pm
It's a bit strange that with the world 'on the brink' that that the lead story on the news is the death of a 1990s sitcom actor. ???
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on October 30, 2023, 10:48:18 pm
Not sure that it is, Lods.

Perry entertained a whole heap of people and had his struggles - a lot of these people 'knew' him as the characters that he played and have a connection.

Armed conflict sucks.  There is a hopelessness and despair attached to it - there becomes a point where we need a break from it being the lead item for 15 mins everyday.  It is still reported and covered but off the front page for a short while.  It won't disappear - although the Ukraine/Russia conflict isn't as prominently reported even though it is still quite active.  That may because it is 18 months in.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on October 31, 2023, 09:06:21 am
It's a bit strange that with the world 'on the brink' that that the lead story on the news is the death of a 1990s sitcom actor. ???

Sad reality Matthew Perry's death impacts people on a personal level that the other conflicts don't.

Most people wouldnt have a concept of the places, or the people impacted by war.  The world is war weary, weve been hearing about a conflict in the "middle east" ever since I can remember, and whilst the names of the nations involved changed, the world keeps spinning.

Perry's story is tragic.  From all reports he struggled with substance abuse, and depression a lot of the time he was filming friends.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on October 31, 2023, 10:05:33 am
I'm actually a 'Friends' fan.
I've watched it from the beginning to the final episode.

I'm aware of Perry's stuggles, but I've also thought since I watched him on that reunion show and read a bit more about his struggles that this was probably an inevitable ending.

I also understand the 'war weariness' aspect where folks would rather not hear about what's happening in Ukraine and the Middle East.

We're mostly not directly affected.
The media understand that, so they go with the more relevant to the viewer/reader.
We'll be more concerned with Bushfires for the next day or two.

It's understandable, but just a little strange.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on October 31, 2023, 02:08:53 pm
I'm actually a 'Friends' fan.
I've watched it from the beginning to the final episode.

I'm aware of Perry's stuggles, but I've also thought since I watched him on that reunion show and read a bit more about his struggles that this was probably an inevitable ending.

I also understand the 'war weariness' aspect where folks would rather not hear about what's happening in Ukraine and the Middle East.

We're mostly not directly affected.
The media understand that, so they go with the more relevant to the viewer/reader.
We'll be more concerned with Bushfires for the next day or two.

It's understandable, but just a little strange.

Its stupid what people find 'newsworthy'.

Quick digression....
Taylor Swift is (apparantly) one of the biggest singers in the world with a huge following. She is currently dating one of the NFL, Kansas City Chiefs, players - Travis Kelce. They won the superbowl last year and did 3 years ago as well. They are the best team in the league.

During a recent broadcast, they provided a stat on how many yards said player would get into "When Taylor Swift was at the game" and "When she wasn't".
That was deemed newsworthy.....her attendence and the 'effect' it had on his performance. Not only was it highlighted during the game. That stat has gone viral. You'd have a hard time working out if they won or lost the game, but 'Taylor Swift stats....'  ::)

News, and newsworthyness, as we know it is far different to what it was in decades past.


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 02, 2023, 09:02:36 am
I was flicking channels last night and flicked passed that puss of a show where mums and dads go on to find a matching partner whilst their kids watch and control things. I saw a familiar face amongst the kids, JGM. His mum is one of the contestants but watching 5 mins of it I thought why would anyone put themselves on such a putrid show? I dont mind some of the reality TV shows but that one and things like Love Island, Married at First Sight are utter garbage. I just dont understand how they survive the light of day. As a society, are we that dumb that we feed off crap like that? Its any wonder many of us have alternative TV options such as Foxtel, Netflix, Stand etc.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on November 02, 2023, 03:15:48 pm
People still watch TV?

I haven't even got an antenna point at my place.

Everything is streamed. You van stream your regular channels of there is something younmustvwatch on there, but a year or so and ove only found the need maybe twice.

Vote with your eye balls
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on November 02, 2023, 04:12:56 pm
I was flicking channels last night and flicked passed that puss of a show where mums and dads go on to find a matching partner whilst their kids watch and control things. I saw a familiar face amongst the kids, JGM. His mum is one of the contestants but watching 5 mins of it I thought why would anyone put themselves on such a putrid show? I dont mind some of the reality TV shows but that one and things like Love Island, Married at First Sight are utter garbage. I just dont understand how they survive the light of day. As a society, are we that dumb that we feed off crap like that? Its any wonder many of us have alternative TV options such as Foxtel, Netflix, Stand etc.

A lot of the people who appear on those shows would describe their careers as 'influencers'.
They operate these social media channels, and by appearing on the shows they seek to increase their number of followers.
They have views on everything, usually with limited knowledge of the topic.
They're true empty vessels...but apparently some of these platforms provide some financial  incentive to have as many subscribers as possible.

Obviously there is some benefit for the stations in these shows, probably tied to mandated Australian content...and of course the advertising that follows the more popular of these shows.
I suspect they cost a little less to produce than a drama series, not requiring things like writers.

But it's still a bit bizarre they have an audience.
I can perhaps see some appeal in a building or cooking show....but "I Married a Bachelor at First Sight on Love Island with Big Brother as  Best Man" is probably a bit of a mystery.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 02, 2023, 06:59:12 pm
I was flicking channels last night and flicked passed that puss of a show where mums and dads go on to find a matching partner whilst their kids watch and control things. I saw a familiar face amongst the kids, JGM. His mum is one of the contestants but watching 5 mins of it I thought why would anyone put themselves on such a putrid show? I dont mind some of the reality TV shows but that one and things like Love Island, Married at First Sight are utter garbage. I just dont understand how they survive the light of day. As a society, are we that dumb that we feed off crap like that? Its any wonder many of us have alternative TV options such as Foxtel, Netflix, Stand etc.
Agree...absolute rubbish non reality TV and I couldnt watch " Friends" either, just more American crapola  along with Seinfeld.... 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 02, 2023, 07:31:13 pm
Agree...absolute rubbish non reality TV and I couldnt watch " Friends" either, just more American crapola  along with Seinfeld.... 
Didnt mind Seinfeld, I found the concept of a show about nothing and the the characters pretty funny. Thats different sort of TV though, you can at least see how some people could find it funny. The mindless, trash you mentioned prior is a sad reflection of society, the contestants have no self respect what so ever. They never would but if one of my daughters slutted around on a TV show like that Love Island, I'd doubt we could ever be in the same room again.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 02, 2023, 07:34:42 pm
Mushroom Lady has been charged with 3 counts of murder and 5 counts of attempted murder.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 15, 2023, 01:57:51 pm
For some reason I felt compelled to catch up on the Higgins Lehrmann case today, partly I suppose because media outlets have made Wilkinson front page as is their want.

But that trial has not caught my attention as much as some of the statements from Wilkinson and other media types, it's alarming to say the least.

In the old days, media knew exactly what it was, and the investigative power it held, it took that power very very seriously.

What is shocking is that some of the current behaviour documented in this case seems to assert that the media still knows about the impact it can have, but no longer blinks at misuse of that power. In effect the media have moved away from being serious investigator to become wilfully trivial judge and executioner, it's a disturbing trend and one everybody should be worried about!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 15, 2023, 05:23:02 pm
For some reason I felt compelled to catch up on the Higgins Lehrmann case today, partly I suppose because media outlets have made Wilkinson front page as is their want.

But that trial has not caught my attention as much as some of the statements from Wilkinson and other media types, it's alarming to say the least.

In the old days, media knew exactly what it was, and the investigative power it held, it took that power very very seriously.

What is shocking is that some of the current behaviour documented in this case seems to assert that the media still knows about the impact it can have, but no longer blinks at misuse of that power. In effect the media have moved away from being serious investigator to become wilfully trivial judge and executioner, it's a disturbing trend and one everybody should be worried about!
Ive said it once and Ill say it again, the days of needing proof to chuck someone in jail are gone.
Wilkinson is a grub, as for Higgins, I best not comment.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 15, 2023, 06:18:59 pm
Poor suffering Victorians look like having to look forward to higher taxes and less services as the North East link project has blown out by 16 billion, the Government offering Covid and the Russian/Ukraine war as excuses.
Matthew Guy called it a croc of crape and its about the only thing he has got right as the leader of the opposition...any chance we can get a decent Government in Victoria? I can see the public service getting slashed as well so the services they provide will be reduced instead of increased like they need to be.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on December 15, 2023, 06:35:40 pm

For some reason I felt compelled to catch up on the Higgins Lehrmann case today, partly I suppose because media outlets have made Wilkinson front page as is their want.

But that trial has not caught my attention as much as some of the statements from Wilkinson and other media types, it's alarming to say the least.

In the old days, media knew exactly what it was, and the investigative power it held, it took that power very very seriously.

What is shocking is that some of the current behaviour documented in this case seems to assert that the media still knows about the impact it can have, but no longer blinks at misuse of that power. In effect the media have moved away from being serious investigator to become wilfully trivial judge and executioner, it's a disturbing trend and one everybody should be worried about!

Some of those involved in commenting on the original case and making personal judgements regarding guilt, including the then Prime Minister, were entirely inappropriate.
It pretty much ensured the case was a shot unit.
In the end it was decided not to proceed with the trial but had it gone ahead, given the publicity, I'm not sure there was any chance of a 'fair' trial.
Folks made up their minds pretty quickly for either side.
Presumption of innocence went out the window.
The thing is, you can't say there are no winners in this one....Lawyers certainly.
Those receiving compensation payouts and potential book deals?
Maybe
But you would have to know the truth of the night in question to judge that
It may be quite possible there was some real traumatic consequences of the night for individuals but we have no idea where the truth lies.
It's a grubby mess.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 15, 2023, 08:01:01 pm
Ive said it once and Ill say it again, the days of needing proof to chuck someone in jail are gone.
Wilkinson is a grub, as for Higgins, I best not comment.
I don't know about Higgins or Lehrmann, but the Wilkinson assessment might be a bullseye.

People confuse Wilkinson's interest in ratings with care and concern for Higgins, and she dresses it up as women's rights because it rates for her, might sell her a few more books, I wonder how many young girls she keeps on staff earning minimum wages as a PA or housekeeper. But if it turned out tonight Higgins was spreading sh1zen, or perhaps it turns out Higgin's fiancé is up to his neck in the spin for political reasons, Wilkinson wouldn't blink at making ratings out of being deceived before sunrise tomorrow! The public seem to gloss right over that sort of change in behaviour, which vanishes into the mist faster than one of Caro's missed predictions.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 15, 2023, 08:54:11 pm
Poor suffering Victorians look like having to look forward to higher taxes and less services as the North East link project has blown out by 16 billion, the Government offering Covid and the Russian/Ukraine war as excuses.
Matthew Guy called it a croc of crape and its about the only thing he has got right as the leader of the opposition...any chance we can get a decent Government in Victoria? I can see the public service getting slashed as well so the services they provide will be reduced instead of increased like they need to be.

Working in construction before, during and after covid, i can tell you that both those 'excuses' are genuine.

Can't give you any insight into the figures presented, but both those things have caused complete and utter havoc with materials and labour.

There is a reason builders are going bust left right and centre, and those are the reasons.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 15, 2023, 10:06:33 pm
Has it escaped folks’ attention that Lehrmann recently lost his attempt to have his name suppressed in another rape case that is eerily similar to the Brittany Higgins’ case?

He may be innocent until proven guilty but there’s no doubt in my mind that he is a despicable creature who gets his jollies from preying upon defenceless women.

Our Parliament and its hangers on has been a cesspit for far too long.  Sleazebags like Lehrmann should be exposed and eliminated.  Wilkinson may have inadvertently aided his cause, and that’s unforgivable … but she claims to have had her utterances legalled every step of the way.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 15, 2023, 10:09:24 pm
Working in construction before, during and after covid, i can tell you that both those 'excuses' are genuine.

Can't give you any insight into the figures presented, but both those things have caused complete and utter havoc with materials and labour.

There is a reason builders are going bust left right and centre, and those are the reasons.
I'd buy inflation and higher interest rates but the maths don't add up to 16 billion.
Grattan institute said it was poor planning
given Victoria have too many projects running and not enough skilled labour and resources.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 15, 2023, 10:34:11 pm
Working in construction before, during and after covid, i can tell you that both those 'excuses' are genuine.

Can't give you any insight into the figures presented, but both those things have caused complete and utter havoc with materials and labour.

There is a reason builders are going bust left right and centre, and those are the reasons.

Yes, as a project manager for many relatively small infrastructure projects well before COVID, 10-20% contingency was generally more than adequate.  It’s a different ball game now but the benefits of these long overdue, vital infrastructure projects still outweigh the increasing costs.

Matthew Guy was a minister in my department when he ignored departmental advice to approve several rezoning applications that were subsequently found to be illegal and were overturned at significant cost to the taxpayer.

A standing joke in the department was, “How do you know if the Minister is lying?”

“His lips are moving.”

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 15, 2023, 10:36:20 pm
Grattan institute said it was poor planning
While I'm not saying the state government are in the clear, I do have to wonder how the Grattan Institute thinks you plan for wars and pandemics, it seems a reasonable question to ask?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on December 15, 2023, 10:42:09 pm
While I'm not saying the state government are in the clear, I do have to wonder how the Grattan Institute thinks you plan for wars and pandemics, it seems a reasonable question to ask?

Everyone is an expert after the fact.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 15, 2023, 10:43:41 pm
Yes, as a project manager for many relatively small infrastructure projects well before COVID, 10-20% contingency was generally more than adequate.  It’s a different ball game now but the benefits of these long overdue, vital infrastructure projects still outweigh the increasing costs.
Yes, in reality it's always cheaper in hindsight, our parents or grandparents thought $10K was too much for a house, imagine if they had waited for them to get cheaper?

I've several projects that have spanned the pandemic, the material and labour costs have risen 200%, but mostly in just the last year as supply chains start gouging customers to recoup bonuses lost over the pandemic. We froze many projects due to high freight costs during the pandemic, shipping rates climbed by 1400%. Those shipping rates have returned to pre-pandemic levels now, perhaps in some cases even lower, but the products they ship have remained high.

Oddly, the executive bonuses have recovered faster than expected, despite shareholder backlash, but wages are falling in real world terms.

In China the opposite is happening, the ar5e has fallen out of the market, suppliers are cutting each other's throat with discounts, it's last man standing before they go into full blown recession. Retail products there are 50% cheaper than they were before the pandemic, yet here we pay more than ever for the same sh1zen that gets imported. Historians will be alarmed by that, and they should be given the way socialist countries chose to get out of the doldrums.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 15, 2023, 10:47:53 pm
While I'm not saying the state government are in the clear, I do have to wonder how the Grattan Institute thinks you plan for wars and pandemics, it seems a reasonable question to ask?

Organisations like the Grattan Institute provide an important service in subjecting government programs and projects to scrutiny that’s beyond the capacity of our opposition.  However, they’re not elected and don’t have to stand for re-election.

As has been remarked upon quite frequently in the last couple of weeks, Dick Hamer’s bold decision to build the City Loop would never have happened if it was subject to a basic cost-benefit analysis or Grattan Institute scrutiny.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 15, 2023, 10:49:36 pm
As has been remarked upon quite frequently in the last couple of weeks, Dick Hamer’s bold decision to build the City Loop would never have happened if it was subject to a basic cost-benefit analysis or Grattan Institute scrutiny.
I said the very same thing to the family last night about the London Underground, do people really think it made economic sense at the time?

These projects are not about profit, that is why they are labelled infrastructure.

Personally, they are 30 years too late already, we should have a bridge across the bay heads, and by now we should have been cutting a tunnel to Tassie!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 17, 2023, 07:02:17 am
I said the very same thing to the family last night about the London Underground, do people really think it made economic sense at the time?

These projects are not about profit, that is why they are labelled infrastructure.

Personally, they are 30 years too late already, we should have a bridge across the bay heads, and by now we should have been cutting a tunnel to Tassie!
Andrew chose to make the East-West link a political issue when every man and his dog knew it was needed. Infrastructure projects, while painful during construction and expensive, are necessary for the long term benefit and should never be politicised (especially at election time). Thats my simplistic view of it all.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on December 17, 2023, 09:58:10 am
Andrew chose to make the East-West link a political issue when every man and his dog knew it was needed. Infrastructure projects, while painful during construction and expensive, are necessary for the long term benefit and should never be politicised (especially at election time). Thats my simplistic view of it all.

Try telling that to a politician.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on December 17, 2023, 10:06:04 am
Don't complain about the tolls, higher taxes and homeless either.
The interest bill in Victoria is horrendous as are the projections for the future.
We can't keep adding more population and spending money we don't have.
Credit rating will drop and the price of everything will skyrocket as the price of money goes up...
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 17, 2023, 10:37:19 am
Andrew chose to make the East-West link a political issue when every man and his dog knew it was needed. Infrastructure projects, while painful during construction and expensive, are necessary for the long term benefit and should never be politicised (especially at election time). Thats my simplistic view of it all.

Libs made the bomb, lit the fuse and passed it to Andrews the second he got voted in.

He chose to throw it away rather than explode with it.

He didn't make it a political issue.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on December 17, 2023, 01:00:08 pm
Well they can't blame the Libs for the Commonwealth Games.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 17, 2023, 01:13:53 pm
Well they can't blame the Libs for the Commonwealth Games.

Its funny you should bring that up because it falls under the same scenario.

Costs have gone through the roof since initial estimates.
So do you....
a) Continue as planned but go into further debt
b) Cut your losses, cancel it and pay out a fee, but save money long term.

Which is the best option?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 17, 2023, 01:46:34 pm
I think that the Commonwealth Games may have run its race.  It's simply too expensive now to build the expected new infrastructure for an event that doesn't generate revenue.  Perhaps they could continue as a "no frills" games using existing venues with minimal tarting up.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on December 17, 2023, 02:26:18 pm
Its funny you should bring that up because it falls under the same scenario.


Costs have gone through the roof since initial estimates.
So do you....
a) Continue as planned but go into further debt
b) Cut your losses, cancel it and pay out a fee, but save money long term.

Which is the best option?

Pretty clear that it was used to help win an election. We see it as money down the drain but for Labor it was money well spent.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 17, 2023, 02:34:22 pm
Perhaps they could continue as a "no frills" games using existing venues with minimal tarting up.
Exactly, back to it's roots.

The Comm Games was never meant to be a mini-Olympics, but it's evolved into a big deal.

Who is to blame, well you know who the media! They turned it into a big broadcasting deal, a bidding war which drove up the cost, forcing the big dollar event to pay big dollar executives many former media execs, then media bailed when it all became too expensive!

It's the same vicious cycle that happens over and over again to sports that can't attract big commercial sponsorships out of the USA or Europe, corporate psychopaths get hold of the sport, drain it of cash, then bugger off!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 17, 2023, 02:51:46 pm
Pretty clear that it was used to help win an election. We see it as money down the drain but for Labor it was money well spent.

Didn't answer the question though.

Damned if they do.
Damned if they don't.

Not sure about you, but WGAF about the comm games anyway?
Not sure how many votes it would've got them, if any, because its a second rate comp that generates little interest
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on December 17, 2023, 03:43:04 pm
Didn't answer the question though.

Damned if they do.
Damned if they don't.

Not sure about you, but WGAF about the comm games anyway?
Not sure how many votes it would've got them, if any, because its a second rate comp that generates little interest

There was an article on the whole situation highlighting all the regions they targeted promising to build facilities for were close seats. They were going to build a brand new pool in a suburb near Geelong despite having an olympic standard pool in Geelong. The difference was they already held a massive double digit margin where the existing pool was but only about 3 percent where the new pool was going to be built. It was a sham, if you believe in 9/11 conspiracies then I think you could accept a government willing to blow money to stay in power.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on December 17, 2023, 04:09:14 pm
That's right...
The votes don't stem from an interest in sport it's more about the improved facilities for suburbs and regions.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 17, 2023, 05:53:22 pm
There was an article on the whole situation highlighting all the regions they targeted promising to build facilities for were close seats. They were going to build a brand new pool in a suburb near Geelong despite having an olympic standard pool in Geelong. The difference was they already held a massive double digit margin where the existing pool was but only about 3 percent where the new pool was going to be built. It was a sham, if you believe in 9/11 conspiracies then I think you could accept a government willing to blow money to stay in power.
Again, not the point.

I remember the article.

I'm not saying there was no benefit to them initially. I'm saying that they were screwed no matter what.

If you make a promise to build something for a price and that price changes, you either break a promise on the price or you break a promise on of it gets built or not.

They are not the reason the price changed, but they will get hung one way or another for it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on December 17, 2023, 07:08:38 pm
I live about 5 minutes from the proposed Olympic White Water canoe complex in Brisbane
Opinions are very divided,
The complex is to be built on ex-farm/bush land.
There has been ongoing discussion about how to use the land for some years.
Many folk favoured developing the land into a parkland/community gardens/market area.
These people are dead against it being used for sport.
It's a situation where the sporting option may not necessarily be the best political option.

Many people point to the somewhat white 'water' elephant built at Penrith for the Sydney games.
Me, I'm looking at how much I can make renting my place for the week in 2032 :D

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on December 17, 2023, 08:13:54 pm
During the election the Liberal Party said they will scrap the SRL and build hospitals instead. Dan Andrews said he would do both.

They're not building any hospitals, the SRL has been delayed because we're broke and Dan is trying to find somewhere to play golf.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 17, 2023, 08:31:59 pm
MBB, That's at least 3 times you've failed to answer the question.
You'd make a good politician.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on December 17, 2023, 08:44:43 pm
MBB, That's at least 3 times you've failed to answer the question.
You'd make a good politician.

I'm a believer if you commit to something you follow through so a). Like I said though it was all an election sham.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 17, 2023, 09:05:03 pm
I'm a believer if you commit to something you follow through so a). Like I said though it was all an election sham.
But do you commit to the build or the cost?
Its one or the other.

You talk about our debt, but your choice is to go further into debt and for what.....the comm games?
Pass.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 18, 2023, 11:17:56 am
During the election the Liberal Party said they will scrap the SRL and build hospitals instead. Dan Andrews said he would do both.

They're not building any hospitals, the SRL has been delayed because we're broke and Dan is trying to find somewhere to play golf.
They are building hospitals and care facilities though.

Check out ferntree gully, Wantirna, there is a new ten story building going up at Box Hill, and rumour has it, Maroondah hospital too.

The Eastern Health corridor is growing very quickly.  The Northern has got some new facilities too.

There is no doubt that infrustructure is going up, the cost cutting is coming in various capacities too.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 18, 2023, 11:31:59 am
Yes, it's easy to remember the stuff that doesn't work and want to kick people, but have a look at the new Victorian Heart Hospital near Monash Uni. State of the art, announced in 2018 and opened in early 2023, that's not a trivial result across a pandemic.

So if I had to care about projects and timeline, I think the VHH was way more important than a road or train line.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on December 18, 2023, 01:56:49 pm
My mum had a minor procedure there and they nicked an artery in her groin on the way out and had to rush her to the Monash because they don't have a vascular team at the VHH.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 18, 2023, 02:40:05 pm
They are building hospitals and care facilities though.

Check out ferntree gully, Wantirna, there is a new ten story building going up at Box Hill, and rumour has it, Maroondah hospital too.

The Eastern Health corridor is growing very quickly.  The Northern has got some new facilities too.

There is no doubt that infrustructure is going up, the cost cutting is coming in various capacities too.
Think they are potentially building something new up in Mernda as well. Read something about that about a year ago.

Those are the types of things you want the government spending on, and not worrying about swimming pools in regional areas.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 18, 2023, 03:12:41 pm
My mum had a minor procedure there and they nicked an artery in her groin on the way out and had to rush her to the Monash because they don't have a vascular team at the VHH.
I hope she is all well now, I was surprised to hear they are already taking patients, my cardiologist hasn't even moved in yet but he is eventually!

There are no guarantees in even minor procedures, one of the big complications in having stents is damaging a vein or artery. Even at the newer hospitals like VHH and the new Frankston Cardiology Centre they'll ship you off to Monash or the Alfred if something goes wrong because there just aren't that many emergency specialists to go around.

The other week I was in the GP and a mother brought a kid in who had accidentally stabbed herself in the forearm using an art knife, one of those scalpel blades they use to cut stencils, just the wrong spot so they packed her in an ambulance and straight to the Alfred. The nurse said she was lucky somebody was home or things could have been as bad as it gets from what most people would say is a trivial cut.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 19, 2023, 06:45:34 pm
Righto, bit of venting needed. This evening I witnessed first hand what I think is wrong with young people in 2023. Behaviours that start with some gobbing off that often leads to violence (sometimes fatal) when directed at the wrong person and then leaving parents wondering "how could that happen to our young boy, he was such a loved young man".

I was on the way home tonight in my car and I was crossing a bike lane which runs in the nature strip of a busy main road. I had to stop as I crossed it as car was in front me stopped waiting to cross the car on the side. I was probably obstructing the rather wide bike lane, by a tow bar at worst. This young turd, maybe 20 years of age + or - a year, riding down the bike lane pulls up next to my window and starts hurling the biggest, mother of all expletive laiden tirades I have heard in a very long time. He called me every name under the sun and had a go at every one of my physical attributes. I admit to eventually exchanging some expletives with said punter and he eventually road off. Now my point is that if this to me occurred 25 years ago, I can promise you that within 20 seconds I would have jumped out and given him a fair old fashioned hiding. These days, I am older, grumpier but a lot wiser, however if that idiot had have hurled that abuse to the wrong character (like some of the mad pricks you see on the news these days), I'm tipping there would have been a fair chance he may not have seen Xmas 23.
Now technically, to the letter of the law, I was in the wrong but FMD a more disrespectful, young a-hole I have not come across. To stop and launch that level of venom over such a minor thing I found mind blowing.
Vent over.


Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: cookie2 on December 19, 2023, 07:43:15 pm
Sorry you had to put up with that GTC. Disgraceful behavior. Wonder how he'd go on the frontline in the Ukraine?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on December 19, 2023, 08:58:27 pm
As a regular former cyclist myself I have to say within that group there are some seriously self-entitled folks who give the community a bad rap.
Maybe GIC was in the wrong technically but the number of cyclists who think the rules don't apply to them is also significant.
Common sense is often out the window.
We have a stretch of road with a perfectly good, wide, safe bike track alongside it yet some cyclists take to the road that narrows in parts over bridges and delays traffic significantly.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 19, 2023, 09:12:58 pm
Righto, bit of venting needed. This evening I witnessed first hand what I think is wrong with young people in 2023. Behaviours that start with some gobbing off that often leads to violence (sometimes fatal) when directed at the wrong person and then leaving parents wondering "how could that happen to our young boy, he was such a loved young man".

I was on the way home tonight in my car and I was crossing a bike lane which runs in the nature strip of a busy main road. I had to stop as I crossed it as car was in front me stopped waiting to cross the car on the side. I was probably obstructing the rather wide bike lane, by a tow bar at worst. This young turd, maybe 20 years of age + or - a year, riding down the bike lane pulls up next to my window and starts hurling the biggest, mother of all expletive laiden tirades I have heard in a very long time. He called me every name under the sun and had a go at every one of my physical attributes. I admit to eventually exchanging some expletives with said punter and he eventually road off. Now my point is that if this to me occurred 25 years ago, I can promise you that within 20 seconds I would have jumped out and given him a fair old fashioned hiding. These days, I am older, grumpier but a lot wiser, however if that idiot had have hurled that abuse to the wrong character (like some of the mad pricks you see on the news these days), I'm tipping there would have been a fair chance he may not have seen Xmas 23.
Now technically, to the letter of the law, I was in the wrong but FMD a more disrespectful, young a-hole I have not come across. To stop and launch that level of venom over such a minor thing I found mind blowing.
Vent over.

My family has always been renowned for not taking sh1t; one of my sisters once chased a car that cut her off only to discover that it was full of armed robbers who had just robbed a bank.

My late brother spent 20 years with VicPol before becoming a barrister.  He took me aside and said that I should think very carefully before engaging in argy bargy with other motorists.  He named half a dozen crims of his acquaintance who would happily smash my head with a brick or shoot me without hesitation if I tangled with them.  Basically, you never know who is driving the car that veered into your lane or blocked the bicycle lane.

Your cyclist needs an older, wiser, street-smart brother to stop him coming to a sticky end.

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: rocky on December 19, 2023, 09:18:45 pm
As a regular former cyclist myself I have to say within that group there are some seriously self-entitled folks who give the community a bad rap.
Maybe GIC was in the wrong technically but the number of cyclists who think the rules don't apply to them is also significant.
Common sense is often out the window.
We have a stretch of road with a perfectly good, wide, safe bike track alongside it yet some cyclists take to the road that narrows in parts over bridges and delays traffic significantly.
It really has been an ongoing battle between bike riders and motorists since the dawn of time. Major D-heads on both sides. I'm a driver and a bike rider and get embarrassed and angry by the behaviour of both groups. Try and stick to bike tracks as much as possible and try to avoid bike riders as much as possible. Not sure things will ever change between these groups.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 19, 2023, 09:26:59 pm
Just to be clear, I dont much now but I used to ride the same bike lane to work nearly every day and the number of cars who crossed the raised bike lane oblivious to cyclists was insane. I saw heaps of cyclists knocked over on the path. I didn't just go over the lane without looking, I stopped, made sure there were bikes near by and moved fwd to the other side. As I sad, I reckon my tower was obstructing. As I said, I knew technically I was in the wrong and this wasn't about a car/cyclist thing. To me it was about a behaviour/attitude that will get you into trouble if you cross the wrong type of person. I have no doubt in my mind that bloke will get a lesson from someone one day, nothing surer.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 20, 2023, 09:45:14 am
You know whats missing in the world is the ability to think beyond whats in front of you, and appreciate that everyone has a challenge in front of them.

That cyclist, missed the fact the car was obstructing things, because the car likely couldnt proceed, because up the line someone else was obstructing someone else, and so on and so forth.

When the roads get busy, people get frustrated, and occasionally do stupid stuff, but the thing that really irritates me, is just how selfish the world has become and how unable to understand the other perspective.

It all happens easily enough with a sorry mate, and everyone waves and moves on.  Instead you get people tailgating to not let one car in, when a zipper merge is more efficient, and leads to less overall traffic slowdown.  Instead, its I need to push in, and brake instantly because im going too fast, which slows traffic further (and ultimately contributes to the odd car accident).

The other thing that drives me spare, are the people who plan their routes so badly that they all of a sudden need to turn left, across 3 lanes of traffic.  Are you that busy, that you can't just proceed, do a U turn, and then turn right?  Or can you not just turn left further up, then turn left again and merge like a human being?

The bikes, again, another tirade launched at people who were blocking a driveway to get trucks in and out stop signs at all.  Wellington street Collingwood.  A car turning right across traffic into said driveway, and a lollipop, and instead of understanding whats going on, she launches into a tirade, whilst blocking the driveway, and all of us are standing still because one bike was upset the lollipop dude, stopped everyone. 

Its annoying.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 20, 2023, 09:50:40 am
The problems exist on both sides but are greatly inflated by media reporting with bias, the simple truth is this, drivers and riders are not perfect they make mistakes. Some minority on both sides flout the laws, both sides should openly highlight those doing so, but good people tend to stay silent, and it tends to be the case that until an incident becomes serious the overloaded authorities aren't interested either.

On the technical front, I'm all for more cameras and bike registration, if a bike lane is 25% of the road surface it should also be taxed at 25% of the annual fees.

On the car side of things, more and more vehicles are fitted with cameras now, and as much as some activists riders have been using cameras for political purposes, the vehicle cameras confirm the problem is not unilateral.

But no matter what laws or society say, riders can't win in a conflict with 1400kg of flammable fuel packed alloy, actually now with EVs becoming more prevalent it's more like 2000kg of high voltage alloy.

eScooters are making the situation even worse, they are the new plague, like the monkey bikes were 10 years ago!

Riders dream of a nirvana with roads full of of two wheels, but anyone who has spent 5 minutes driving around Denpasar, Jakarta, Ho Chi Minh or the like will know otherwise, it's not nirvana it's hell! I've had business associates killed by trucks swerving to avoid a falling rider, another associate hand signalling a turn/lane swap lost his arm to a lane splitting motorbike rider, and another associate suffering long term PSTD from being on the scene of a tragic collision between a turning rider and a cement truck.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: spf on December 20, 2023, 11:26:57 am
Sorry you had to put up with that GTC. Disgraceful behavior. Wonder how he'd go on the frontline in the Ukraine?

I wonder how any of us would. Let's celebrate that this Xmas, that we don't have to experience it.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 21, 2023, 03:31:43 pm
Noted today Mr Basil Zemplas going troppo over the recent surveys suggesting fulltime CBD office work is a thing of the past.

But like the Mayors of so many major cities Zemplas has a vested interest, the bulk of traders and the vibrancy of the city rely on foot traffic for the large chunk of business and security.

Now it won't' escape most that this tends to be the position taking by media / influencer types also, and one suspects the greatly degraded inner city lifestyle our celebs currently "bravely suffer" seems to be a major driver in this debate. Reinforcing the early push from corporate psychopaths for oversight of the downtrodden.

Meanwhile out in the burbs and back lots, local traders are finding that locals spending even 1 day a week locally results in a significant trade increase, it actually seems proportional to the days not spent travelling into the CBD. Of course this is disastrous for the Inner City influencers, because their favourite chefs have migrated to the lower rent outer city limits where nobody would dare to travel unless passing through on the way to the ski fields, a remote winery or the odd game of polo!

Such a difficult life, how can we possibly survive?

I'll put some thought into that as I wander down to our local recently decentralised boutique café for a latte, some smashed avo and a macrone to die for, and I promise to get back to you!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 21, 2023, 05:08:22 pm
Noted today Mr Basil Zemplas going troppo over the recent surveys suggesting fulltime CBD office work is a thing of the past.

But like the Mayors of so many major cities Zemplas has a vested interest, the bulk of traders and the vibrancy of the city rely on foot traffic for the large chunk of business and security.

Now it won't' escape most that this tends to be the position taking by media / influencer types also, and one suspects the greatly degraded inner city lifestyle our celebs currently "bravely suffer" seems to be a major driver in this debate. Reinforcing the early push from corporate psychopaths for oversight of the downtrodden.

Meanwhile out in the burbs and back lots, local traders are finding that locals spending even 1 day a week locally results in a significant trade increase, it actually seems proportional to the days not spent travelling into the CBD. Of course this is disastrous for the Inner City influencers, because their favourite chefs have migrated to the lower rent outer city limits where nobody would dare to travel unless passing through on the way to the ski fields, a remote winery or the odd game of polo!

Such a difficult life, how can we possibly survive?

I'll put some thought into that as I wander down to our local recently decentralised boutique café for a latte, some smashed avo and a macrone to die for, and I promise to get back to you!

Yep, Spotted One. Enjoy your smashed avo and macrone!

Many folks are discovering a brave new world since Covid, probably the only upside (of Covid).
*Work from home coupla days a week, much to the chagrin of some cynical, change resistant control freak (sociopathic?) bosses!
*Shop more locally outside the CBD.
*Avoid the traffic congestion, parking expenses/hassles and increased pollution of the CBD.
* ...feel free to add other benefits to avoiding the CBD (in any major city, though particularly Melb and Syd).

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 21, 2023, 05:12:30 pm
Yep, Spotted One. Enjoy your smashed avo and macrone!

Many folks are discovering a brave new world since Covid, probably the only upside (of Covid).
*Work from home coupla days a week, much to the chagrin of some cynical, change resistant control freak (sociopathic?) bosses!
*Shop more locally outside the CBD.
*Avoid the traffic congestion, parking expenses/hassles and increased pollution of the CBD.
* ...feel free to add other benefits to avoiding the CBD (in any major city, though particularly Melb and Syd).

Working from home is better for the environment.
Working from home is better for your mental health.
Working from home is better for the company (actual output has increased, counterintuitively)
Working from home is better for the locals.

.....but yes, some people who fork out big $'s to live and/or work in/from the city are suffering so its a 'big problem'.  ::)

If it wasn't for footy matches and rock concerts, i would never go to the city and that suits me just fine.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 21, 2023, 05:15:04 pm
And I'll grab this opportunity to wish all the folks here, their families and loved ones a safe and splendiferous Festive Season.

No holidays for Mrs Baggers and I, so simply enjoying a few days trips... besides, the critter is coming into season so gotta sit on the porch with a shotgun looking out for dogs seeking to 'service' her! Mrs Baggers chose her inside the house doggie diapers - pink with little animal images on them... good grief, fearsome looking Doberman in pink knickers!!!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on December 22, 2023, 12:16:51 am
Yes, there are benefits of working from home.  There are also negatives.  It is dependent on size, purpose of org and management.

 - General productivity and communication is dropping as people get comfortable with it.
 - There are more taking the P!ss with it again.
 - Lose the water cooler idea sharing/venting
 - Lose relationship with teams

Yes, local business benefit (by the time I think about lunch, get organised to get it, then eat it takes longer than at an office - so is the extra time made up?), but those that invested in their retail/hospitality business in CBD or other centres lose out.




Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 22, 2023, 07:50:58 am
It's a very big subject, the working from home v going into the office... but it needn't be a 'versus'.

There has been plenty of good research into the entire situation with all manner of pros and cons on each side. And it varies from nation to nation, also.

Australia, possessing more introverts than extroverts (about 60-40 from memory), sees working from home pretty strongly supported. However, with Teams, Zoom and even Skype being common place, contact and connection with others in the office when working from home is still achieved.

Mrs Baggers, an extrovert, for example, loves being in the office and the physical connection with others, however, when working from home she is on the tech connection for a good few hours each day... she does comment, though, that she gets more done working from home as there are fewer interruptions.

We are living through a significant change in workplace attitudes and disciplines. Horses for courses. It'll take time. Still plenty of teething issues, and as Dodge points out, there are some organizations where working from home is just impractical.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 22, 2023, 08:14:49 am
I too suspect there is no going back. The high speed internet and edge technologies have changed the clerical worker landscape, you can be anywhere on the globe and still securely access the spreadsheets, almost as good or maybe even better than from a desk in a building. I wasn't sure about this at first, but watching the next generation of devices coming out you can see they are all geared for this purpose, those device manufacturers know the direction things are heading even if some of the less pliable clients refuse to accept!

For me the biggest advantage is for non-profits and public services, a huge chunk of their annual overheads go to infrastructure like buildings, energy, vehicles, maintenance, etc, etc. That can largely be eliminated freeing up million$ that would be far better off put to use in the core agendas.

As for some gaming the system, in that regard I do not think it matters where those so inclined are, it is their nature to often put more effort into avoiding work than the actual core task requires.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on December 22, 2023, 08:59:16 am
Yes, there are benefits of working from home.  There are also negatives.  It is dependent on size, purpose of org and management.

 - General productivity and communication is dropping as people get comfortable with it.
 - There are more taking the P!ss with it again.
 - Lose the water cooler idea sharing/venting
 - Lose relationship with teams

Yes, local business benefit (by the time I think about lunch, get organised to get it, then eat it takes longer than at an office - so is the extra time made up?), but those that invested in their retail/hospitality business in CBD or other centres lose out.


Yes, there's a fair bit of for and against.
It may be that we're in a bit of a honeymoon period with the productivity side of things in some jobs.
Folks will embrace it with different levels of enthusiasm and commitment.
How will that go over time?

What happens to all the office spaces in the middle of town?
Change to accomodation maybe...and that has a flow on effect to local shops.
It may be a bit early to make some judgements on the long term effects of more people working at home.

In my own profession of teaching, some aspects are easily adopted to distance learning.
We've been doing it for a while with correspondence school and school of the air etc
Discipline issues would largely disappear with the press of a button
But there's a downside in terms of the social interaction of kids and the development of some life-long friendships and connections.

We've seen how it would operate in some excellent documentary series like the "Jetsons".
But I'm not sure it would all be "Happy Days"
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: dodge on December 22, 2023, 09:00:02 am
Certainly no going back.  Getting a balance of office and home is hard.  Certainly office space is - what space is needed for one/two days a week when everyone is in and 50-75% the rest of the time.
 
A big employee advantage you can have an appointment more easily eg see a doctor at anytime,  rather than stressing to get the first appointment before commuting ie the flexibility.

The worst is information sharing decreases - I won't bother that person for this one thing,  not worth it,  even though it affects my ability to do my job.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 22, 2023, 12:49:52 pm
I too suspect there is no going back. The high speed internet and edge technologies have changed the clerical worker landscape, you can be anywhere on the globe and still securely access the spreadsheets, almost as good or maybe even better than from a desk in a building. I wasn't sure about this at first, but watching the next generation of devices coming out you can see they are all geared for this purpose, those device manufacturers know the direction things are heading even if some of the less pliable clients refuse to accept!

For me the biggest advantage is for non-profits and public services, a huge chunk of their annual overheads go to infrastructure like buildings, energy, vehicles, maintenance, etc, etc. That can largely be eliminated freeing up million$ that would be far better off put to use in the core agendas.

[b]As for some gaming the system, in that regard I do not think it matters where those so inclined are, it is their nature to often put more effort into avoiding work than the actual core task requires. [/b]

100%, Spotted One. A small % of humans are simply malcontents, narcissists or even sociopaths... and there aint no way to make these poor folks happy. None. They're the white-anters, constant whingers and bleaters/woe-is-me types ('me' is their favourite word/topic). And catering, or attempting to cater, to these types is a ticket into a bottomless pit insatiable manipulation, selfishness and gloom.

Better to cater to the rest -yep, they have their down times too, times when stress, even burnout, gets the better of them, BUT, they respond well to simple acknowledgement, consideration and genuine thoughtfulness followed by appropriate action. These folks get the job, often with some good laughs along the way.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 22, 2023, 01:17:40 pm
Yes, there are benefits of working from home.  There are also negatives.  It is dependent on size, purpose of org and management.

 - General productivity and communication is dropping as people get comfortable with it.
 - There are more taking the P!ss with it again.
 - Lose the water cooler idea sharing/venting
 - Lose relationship with teams

Yes, local business benefit (by the time I think about lunch, get organised to get it, then eat it takes longer than at an office - so is the extra time made up?), but those that invested in their retail/hospitality business in CBD or other centres lose out.

The first 2 points occur whether you are at home, or at the office. Long term, these people get found out and moved on, so its a non-issue IMO.
The last 2 points are more of a concern, but can be compensate for that by including more team building exercises, or social gatherings etc. You could argue that less of that is required if its specifically designed for that purpose. More bang for your buck.

I think Melbourne is somewhat of a unique case study in a way as we are a large city with a large spread. People come from far and wide compared to some others cities, especially around the world.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 22, 2023, 02:51:50 pm
Working from home, vs working at work.

You know, everyone always looks at the positives/negatives of doing so.  Ultimately its not about where you work, its about having clear KPI's and meeting those.

From what I have seen, the work from home stuff, generated a lot more useless work than actual work in a lot of people.  Also, if you get outsourced, because remote working sees work going offshore to someone getting paid less to do a lot more, then I dont see how people can complain.

When push comes to shove, there is a case for remote working, and a case for not, but ultimately its not a one size fits all approach.  I prefer not to commute, but there are some things you just cannot do remotely, and remote workers end up delegating tasks to people on premise, to get away with working from home, leaving on premises resources over worked.

Where this gets really problematic, is to do with what people consider work.  Also, when you get one of those useless resources, they can get away with a lot more remotely.  Although, i have seen plenty sleeping at the office.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on December 22, 2023, 03:32:03 pm
Ive said it once and Ill say it again, the days of needing proof to chuck someone in jail are gone.
Wilkinson is a grub, as for Higgins, I best not comment.

Do you believe Lehrmann's version of events that he didn't touch her?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 22, 2023, 04:35:12 pm
Do you believe Lehrmann's version of events that he didn't touch her?
My point is on the basis of the evidence that appears to been presented, if I was in the jury, I could not find him guilty. Unfortunately for Higgins, she didn't report into to a police station or a hospital the morning after to be properly interviewed and importantly tested.
If a person can be charged with rape when all that's known is that two people walked into an office, the law is stuffed in my opinion.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 22, 2023, 04:40:11 pm
Working from home, vs working at work.

You know, everyone always looks at the positives/negatives of doing so.  Ultimately its not about where you work, its about having clear KPI's and meeting those.
A lot of this is more about the quality of managers than the where staff are located, there are a lot of very average managers who have been exposed by WFH, but there are a lot of very ordinary staff who have been exposed by WFH as well.

An actuary friend of mine said an almost immediate side effect of WFH has been a massive drop in compo claims, those likely to try it on are also likely to be the first to stay home, and they can't sue themselves! But they have also noticed a strong trend emerging, people rolling up to the office unexpectedly only to having an accident.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 22, 2023, 04:43:28 pm
If a person can be charged with rape when all that's known is that two people walked into an office, the law is stuffed in my opinion.
I can't tell you what happened, nobody outside of those two know.

But Lehrmann is still in the country, while Higgins has taken a massive public purse payout and scarpered, it's leaving a bad taste!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on December 22, 2023, 05:05:46 pm
I can't tell you what happened, nobody outside of those two know.

But Lehrmann is still in the country, while Higgins has taken a massive public purse payout and scarpered, it's leaving a bad taste!

Yep, what a mess; a circus. I think I'll defer to the assessments of the judge in the present case, where he has said that neither of Numbnuts nor Princess is particularly reliable as a witness! Both flawed.

However, regardless, alleged rape is about as serious a crime as it gets. But, tragically (for either Princess or Numbnuts), this case has blurs and greys all over the shop: Alcohol, delayed reporting, reported plying Princess with grog, cocaine, payouts before legal proof/trial, careers ruined, ministers under all manner of suspicious clouds, media people evangelizing and showboating, premature judgements... What a rats nest parliament must be!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 22, 2023, 10:44:37 pm
Yep, what a mess; a circus. I think I'll defer to the assessments of the judge in the present case, where he has said that neither of Numbnuts nor Princess is particularly reliable as a witness! Both flawed.
If Lehrmann gets a big damages pay-out as well, have they both played everybody, I wouldn't be surprised to find out one day it was so?

What if the only victim here was the general public, Higgins and Lehrmann get payouts, Wilkinson and Ten gets publicity, and profit, whether we are watching their pain or watching their victory we are still watching and they have already made far more than any pitiful amount they are forced to pay!

A court case including a fleet of lawyers might actually be cheaper to produce than any real show!

Sounds like paranoia doesn't it, ................... but is it?

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 22, 2023, 11:02:39 pm
Yep, what a mess; a circus. I think I'll defer to the assessments of the judge in the present case, where he has said that neither of Numbnuts nor Princess is particularly reliable as a witness! Both flawed.

However, regardless, alleged rape is about as serious a crime as it gets. But, tragically (for either Princess or Numbnuts), this case has blurs and greys all over the shop: Alcohol, delayed reporting, reported plying Princess with grog, cocaine, payouts before legal proof/trial, careers ruined, ministers under all manner of suspicious clouds, media people evangelizing and showboating, premature judgements... What a rats nest parliament must be!
Dont underestimate the role said Princess's boyfriend has played in all this. Seems like a bigger grub than Wilkinson.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 23, 2023, 12:24:05 am
My point is on the basis of the evidence that appears to been presented, if I was in the jury, I could not find him guilty. Unfortunately for Higgins, she didn't report into to a police station or a hospital the morning after to be properly interviewed and importantly tested.
If a person can be charged with rape when all that's known is that two people walked into an office, the law is stuffed in my opinion.

Perhaps he's just the type of bloke that women like to accuse of raping them ... or he's a rapist.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/bruce-lehrmann-charged-with-rape-in-toowoomba-over-2021-alleged-incident/news-story/09b77ddd1f4c717fb69fe2ed51c06d13
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 23, 2023, 01:08:08 am
Regardless of these specific cases, money should not be an option for settlement, or it becomes yet another motive.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 23, 2023, 07:07:20 am
Perhaps he's just the type of bloke that women like to accuse of raping them ... or he's a rapist.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/bruce-lehrmann-charged-with-rape-in-toowoomba-over-2021-alleged-incident/news-story/09b77ddd1f4c717fb69fe2ed51c06d13
Or perhaps its just another case with no evidence or everyone woman he has ever gone near will come out and acuse him of rape. If I remember correctly, they met at a strip club and she took him to her place?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on December 23, 2023, 08:03:47 am
My opinions on these cases are probably influenced a bit by my own career experiences.
Working for a child welfare department I spent six years at a receiving and assessment centre for wards of the state.
It was a place where children up to 18 first came after removal from their parents or 'carers'
The tales of neglect, physical and sexual abuse were horrific.
Unfortunately these residential/institutional  settings also attracted amongst it's work force the occasional predator.
Complaints of physical and sexual abuse against staff were not uncommon.
We've seen some of the results of that following the royal comission which resulted in charges relating to historic sexual abuse of children in institutional settings.
I have no 'truck' with abusers of any kind.
Sexual abuse is the worst thing a person can experience short of murder.

But there is another side to  the story.
What happens to the alleged abuser who is actually innocent.
Your career, your reputation, family connections, life as you know it can be destroyed by such accusations.
Even if you're found innocent by the courts it's something that hangs there over your head and there will always be folks who make their own judgement on your guilt or innocence.
Guilty or innocent....Life will never be the same.

Even so it's the courts who must be the final judge.
Higgins is entitled to tell her side of the story.
Accusations such as this are not made lightly.
It takes a lot of balancing of the consequences to decide whether to proceed.
On the other hand Lehrmann is entitled to a presumption of innocence until the matter is decided.
Each case need to be judged on it's merits.
The Toowomba case has no bearing at present.
From what's been revealed it's going to be a difficult one to judge.
It may indicate a pattern of behaviour, but it's also yet to be proved.

As the original case progressed I couldn't help but shake my head as inappropriate comments and judgements were made by various people right up to the PM.
I'm not sure who was advising Ms Higgins but I suspect she didn't always follow that advice in some of her public comments outside the court.
The system won't always get it right, but it has to be followed....and this case went completely off the rails.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: madbluboy on December 23, 2023, 08:46:48 am
Or perhaps its just another case with no evidence or everyone woman he has ever gone near will come out and acuse him of rape. If I remember correctly, they met at a strip club and she took him to her place?

I'm not saying he raped Higgins but I don't believe his version that nothing happened.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 23, 2023, 11:19:50 am
Or perhaps its just another case with no evidence or everyone woman he has ever gone near will come out and acuse him of rape. If I remember correctly, they met at a strip club and she took him to her place?

In fact, Lehrmann (who called himself Bryce) took her to his friend's house where she apparently passed out after too much alcohol.  Familiar modus operandi?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 23, 2023, 12:34:57 pm
Or perhaps its just another case with no evidence or everyone woman he has ever gone near will come out and acuse him of rape. If I remember correctly, they met at a strip club and she took him to her place?
I can't comment on specific cases, and this comment has nothing to do with the current cases, but it's become clear over the recent past decade or so that being a victim is a way of improving your media profile. The #MeToo aspect has become ludicrous, and it makes a mockery of the legal system as lawyers rake in the dollar$ with trivial accusations and even less evidence.

Until cash settlements are banned, until false accusers face prosecution or ramifications for their actions, things will only get worse.

I regularly read do-gooders claiming nobody "wants that type of publicity", that's complete bullsh1t statement, these do-gooders must be multimedia luddites. I'm not even sure if the narcissists can read the words that accompany their front page photo, male or female. they just gaze at the image like a mirror and imagine collecting clicks and cash.

It's not just the legal realm this is happening in, we see it in politics as well, especially the politics of the post truth era!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 23, 2023, 12:48:20 pm
PS; The lip reading stuff is complete sh1zen, probably worse than opinion because when they framed questions to the "expert lip reader" they did so with bias.

I know someone who signs professionally for deaf people, in lectures, at meetings, in interviews negotiations. She will tell you that the reason she signs is because lip reading is next to useless between strangers.

Lip reading friends and family is a different matter, but even then lip reading is still not perfect, and to get it reliable you have to be physically close to the person you're trying to read, familiar with their speech patterns(as in regular conversations with friends or family), exactly face to face, and completely free of other distractions.

The truth about lip reading is that you're not just reading lips, the term itself is deceptive. You read lips, mouth speed, tongue movements, facial expressions, twitches, eyes and pretty everything else in terms of subtle gestures and body movement that become unintelligible at more than 2m or 3m away!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: crashlander on December 23, 2023, 01:07:14 pm
I can't tell you what happened, nobody outside of those two know.

But Lehrmann is still in the country, while Higgins has taken a massive public purse payout and scarpered, it's leaving a bad taste!
If you listen to Higgins, the only one person knows what happened, and it wasn't her.

I was amazed to hear that the cameras suggest that Lehrmann only bought Higgins two drinks!

I have no idea what happened back there, but when it came down to two people arguing about what happened with no corroborating evidence, the result is never going to be satisfactory.
That people, especially in the media and in politics, decide to use such things for their benefit no longer surprises me, but it does disappoint me. It certainly makes getting real justice extremely difficult.

If I were Higgins and I thought I had been raped, I wouldn't bring it up days later; I'd be heading to the police to get evidence ASAP! The only way to be sure if for there to be evidence, not innuendo.
Maybe my being male colours my opinion, but ...

Lehrmann's life has been ruined; he has no chance of ever getting anywhere.
As for Higgins, she may have got a payout, but her future isn't looking rosy either.
The lawyers, on the other hand, may as well order their next Mercedes or two, because the money is certainly heading their way.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Thryleon on December 23, 2023, 06:00:26 pm
I watched the footage of what happened at parliament house.

Ignoring the hyperbole, what on earth were they doing heading back to work together? Something about keys and what not.  It doesn't add up. 

To me we may have seen the equivalent of blurred goggles regret or perhaps trying to stave off the embarrassment of being found out? At work?  Perhaps this was misconduct and to try and save face rape became the allegation? 

Who knows for sure.  Not me.  All I know, is that I know nothing. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 23, 2023, 06:12:00 pm
If you listen to Higgins, the only one person knows what happened, and it wasn't her.

I was amazed to hear that the cameras suggest that Lehrmann only bought Higgins two drinks!

I have no idea what happened back there, but when it came down to two people arguing about what happened with no corroborating evidence, the result is never going to be satisfactory.
That people, especially in the media and in politics, decide to use such things for their benefit no longer surprises me, but it does disappoint me. It certainly makes getting real justice extremely difficult.

If I were Higgins and I thought I had been raped, I wouldn't bring it up days later; I'd be heading to the police to get evidence ASAP! The only way to be sure if for there to be evidence, not innuendo.
Maybe my being male colours my opinion, but ...

Lehrmann's life has been ruined; he has no chance of ever getting anywhere.
As for Higgins, she may have got a payout, but her future isn't looking rosy either.
The lawyers, on the other hand, may as well order their next Mercedes or two, because the money is certainly heading their way.

With respect Crash, you’re unlikely to be in a position where you have to decide whether to report a rape.

One of my sisters was raped.  She told me about it many years later and explained why reporting it wasn’t an option; fear of reprisals, shame, questioning by male police, going to court with male judges and lawyers, embarrassing the family …

The judge in this case is convinced that neither Higgins nor Lehrmann has been totally honest.  It will come down to whether the judge accepts that intercourse took place.  If he does, Lehrmann is screwed.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on December 24, 2023, 07:27:47 am
With respect Crash, you’re unlikely to be in a position where you have to decide whether to report a rape.

One of my sisters was raped.  She told me about it many years later and explained why reporting it wasn’t an option; fear of reprisals, shame, questioning by male police, going to court with male judges and lawyers, embarrassing the family …

The judge in this case is convinced that neither Higgins nor Lehrmann has been totally honest.  It will come down to whether the judge accepts that intercourse took place.  If he does, Lehrmann is screwed.

That's really where this needs to be decided.
In a court of law.
With a body of testimony.
With an experienced adjudicator.
Not in the court of public opinion, where bias, personal perception, and limited information will rarely deliver a sound assessment.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 24, 2023, 08:50:45 am
That's really where this needs to be decided.
In a court of law.
With a body of testimony.
With an experienced adjudicator.
Not in the court of public opinion, where bias, personal perception, and limited information will rarely deliver a sound assessment.

100% agree, as I have been saying, there needs to be proper proof and evidence (beyond reasonable doubt) to lock someone away. Look at the woman who has just been freed here in Oz after 20 years in prison for allegedly killing her children. Thats what happens when you get things wrong.
The problem here is that Wilkinson and The Project tainted the whole process creating a bias.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 24, 2023, 08:57:49 am
In fact, Lehrmann (who called himself Bryce) took her to his friend's house where she apparently passed out after too much alcohol.  Familiar modus operandi?
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/bruce-lehrmann-s-case-returns-to-court-for-first-time-since-identity-reveal-20231031-p5eghj.html

He is charged with two counts of rape of a woman in Toowoomba, west of Brisbane, in 2021. The alleged victim told police she had read about Lehrmann online in the weeks after the encounter and told police they initially had consensual sex, but that Lehrmann later removed a condom without her permission and raped her twice.

https://www.bandt.com.au/bruce-lehrmann-revealed-as-high-profile-man-charged-with-toowoomba-rape/#:~:text=Bruce%20Lehrmann%20has%20reportedly%20been,concerns%20about%20his%20mental%20health.

The alleged victim said she recognised Lehrmann – who introduced himself to her as “Bryce” – after he first appeared in court over allegations he raped Brittany Higgins in Parliament House.

Lehrmann allegedly had consensual sex with the young woman but didn’t wear a condom when they had sex the next morning – which is sexual assault under Queensland law.

The alleged victim said she went to the Powerhouse nightclub in Toowoomba on October 2021 before going on to an adult venue called The Vault.

There, according to a police court brief, she “recalls socialising with friends, consuming more alcohol and a quantity of cocaine”.

She then went on to allegedly meet Lehrmann in the smokers’ area before the pair left and went back to a house he was staying with friends.

The pair got into bed clothed, she said. After a short conversation they kissed and she told him to put a condom on. She then claims she woke up to find her legs open and Lehrmann’s penis inside her.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on December 24, 2023, 11:38:58 am
Lehrmann allegedly had consensual sex with the young woman but didn’t wear a condom when they had sex the next morning – which is sexual assault under Queensland law.

Hey??

Thats a new one.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 24, 2023, 12:42:49 pm
The alleged victim said she recognised Lehrmann – who introduced himself to her as “Bryce” – after he first appeared in court over allegations he raped Brittany Higgins in Parliament House.
So after recognising "Lehrmann" on TV it was reported as a rape allegation, positively identified, and apparently I'm the bad person for being cynical!

Much like allegations of racism, when we leave the definition of a crime to the alleged victim, those offended or those harbouring regrets we step onto a very slippery slope, and it seems now we should be very worried indeed that the concept of proof might be heading the same way, much closer to opinion than evidence! Crimes that can be settled in cash or come with exclusive contract$!

The plight of genuine victims is diminished by these cases, women (society) should take offense at the spurious claims as much of it seems driven by fame and dollars and it's not going to get better anytime soon. How long before this story is sold to the highest bidder, I expect Ten's wallet will be overflowing with dollars just to have the opportunity for a chat! There should be serious penalties for making false claims, you should lose all that was gained and some, the risk to reputation isn't enough, the people involved simply don't care about losing face!

Now on an adjacent point. Women(or some men for that matter) can wear padded bras, fake hair, fake tan, fake contact lenses, fake nails, corsets, ar5e lift underwear, thigh sculpting stockings, have nose jobs, boob lifts, neck tucks and any other number of synthetic surgery, they unzip and it's like the stay puff marshmallow man exiting pressure suit, and a guy is a bastard for using a fake name! If it's bogus and it fails as a tactic, what will happen, a change of hair colour, a change of makeup, a new address, .............. a new name?

Do you still wonder why the hard right is finding increasing support?

We should all be worried, because the hard right is prepared to lie as much as the extreme left, in the end they meet in the middle and all I can see in the result is anarchy.

The root cause and effect seems to be glossed over, people lie, social media promotes lying!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 24, 2023, 03:07:06 pm
So after recognising "Lehrmann" on TV it was reported as a rape allegation, positively identified, and apparently I'm the bad person for being cynical!

Much like allegations of racism, when we leave the definition of a crime to the alleged victim, those offended or those harbouring regrets we step onto a very slippery slope, and it seems now we should be very worried indeed that the concept of proof might be heading the same way, much closer to opinion than evidence! Crimes that can be settled in cash or come with exclusive contract$!

The plight of genuine victims is diminished by these cases, women (society) should take offense at the spurious claims as much of it seems driven by fame and dollars and it's not going to get better anytime soon. How long before this story is sold to the highest bidder, I expect Ten's wallet will be overflowing with dollars just to have the opportunity for a chat! There should be serious penalties for making false claims, you should lose all that was gained and some, the risk to reputation isn't enough, the people involved simply don't care about losing face!

Now on an adjacent point. Women(or some men for that matter) can wear padded bras, fake hair, fake tan, fake contact lenses, fake nails, corsets, ar5e lift underwear, thigh sculpting stockings, have nose jobs, boob lifts, neck tucks and any other number of synthetic surgery, they unzip and it's like the stay puff marshmallow man exiting pressure suit, and a guy is a bastard for using a fake name! If it's bogus and it fails as a tactic, what will happen, a change of hair colour, a change of makeup, a new address, .............. a new name?

Do you still wonder why the hard right is finding increasing support?

We should all be worried, because the hard right is prepared to lie as much as the extreme left, in the end they meet in the middle and all I can see in the result is anarchy.

The root cause and effect seems to be glossed over, people lie, social media promotes lying!

I'm not sure why this is so hard to follow.

The young lady in question was soused and went home with a bloke who told her his name was Bryce.

They had consensual sex and "Bryce" used a condom as agreed.  The young lady woke up later to find Bryce porking her again, this time without a condom.  Not using a condom can be sexual assault under Queensland law and having sex with a person who is asleep, unconscious or affected by alcohol or drugs is an offence across Australia.  That's not the victim's definition, it's the law, plain and simple.

The young lady later saw Bruce Lehrmann online and recognised him as the "Bryce" who had consensual and non-consensual sex with her.  She told the police, he was charged and the case has proceeded to the committal stage.  There must be a fair body of corroborating evidence if the case has gone this far.

Although QLD law requires the names of alleged rapists to be revealed when cases go to committal, Lehrmann's lawyers fought hard to have his name suppressed.  Why would that be?

Remember that Lehrmann's lawyers argued that he couldn't get a fair trial because, according to Chief Justice Lucy McCallum,  “allegations were published to the effect that the man who had sexually assaulted the complainant was also accused of having sexually assaulted or harassed a number of other women”.

Either there's an organised conspiracy against Lehrmann or he's a sleazebag who gets his jollies from having sex with comatose women.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on December 24, 2023, 05:37:14 pm
There must be a fair body of corroborating evidence if the case has gone this far.
Yes, that's what Wilkinson said about Higgins.

It's impossible to make a definitive decision based on the information that has been made public so far, doing so just exposes a bias. We saw this with the #MeToo movement, any number of additional accusers doesn't make something true.

I'm not for or against, I'm exposing two human traits, going early in error, and wanting to believe.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on December 24, 2023, 06:36:05 pm
Yes, that's what Wilkinson said about Higgins.

It's impossible to make a definitive decision based on the information that has been made public so far, doing so just exposes a bias. We saw this with the #MeToo movement, any number of additional accusers doesn't make something true.

I'm not for or against, I'm exposing two human traits, going early in error, and wanting to believe.

In the Toowoomba rape case, allegations have been made and the prosecution has put together a brief of evidence that has satisfied the DPP (as happened with the Higgins' case).  The case will run its course, unless there's more shenanigans, and, if Lehrmann is committed for trial, a verdict will be reached and we'll know whether or not he's officially a sleazebag. 
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on January 30, 2024, 11:55:21 pm
I notice the media was forced to apologise for using altered images of a politician.

The thing is the media types do stuff like this so often they can barely recognise themselves without retouching, so fake they have become that fake is normal.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on January 31, 2024, 09:31:35 am
I notice the media was forced to apologise for using altered images of a politician.

The thing is the media types do stuff like this so often they can barely recognise themselves without retouching, so fake they have become that fake is normal.

Nine blamed AI but had to fess up after Adobe pointed out that the changes have to be authorised by a human.

Ms Purcell is an MP, but is she a politician?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 31, 2024, 06:26:47 pm
Nine blamed AI but had to fess up after Adobe pointed out that the changes have to be authorised by a human.

Ms Purcell is an MP, but is she a politician?
And what a piece of work she is.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on January 31, 2024, 07:57:10 pm
And what a piece of work she is.
It doesn't matter who though, Purcell or Thorpe, truth shouldn't be sacrificed for ratings.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 01, 2024, 03:47:43 pm
While I'm not a fan for social media like FB, Twitter or Instatwaddle, I find the media pile on about child sexual abuse slightly hypocritical.

Don't the media use cameras?

Are the camera makers like Nikon, Canon, Fuji, Minolta, equally as liable for the misuse of the media by nefarious types, I mean historically shouldn't we also be pursuing Kodak, Ilford or Fujifilm?

What about the printers used to make hard copies, should HP, Brother, Epson or Xerox be keelhauled?

What about TDK or Sony and those VHS tapes, or the blank CDs and DVDs?

Pretty quickly we see the absurdity of the current situation.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on February 01, 2024, 04:59:15 pm
It's like most things technological. You can use it for good genuine purposes...or you can use it for bad deeds and evil.
Some of the idiots who use it for notoriety on a platform like Tik tok are genuinely bat shlt crazy with no thoughts of anyone but themselves.
I'd ban the thing but in the end it boils down to individual responsibility. You push an old man off a wharf and you deserve to spend a couple of years locked up.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 01, 2024, 08:49:38 pm
It's like most things technological. You can use it for good genuine purposes...or you can use it for bad deeds and evil.
Some of the idiots who use it for notoriety on a platform like Tik tok are genuinely bat shlt crazy with no thoughts of anyone but themselves.
I'd ban the thing but in the end it boils down to individual responsibility. You push an old man off a wharf and you deserve to spend a couple of years locked up.
Dont effin start me! What about the 16 yo who murdered the Doctor in Doncaster while on bail. Or the two cretins who stole a car and mowed down two cyclists🤬I'd lock the Kents ( and their Parents ) up in concrete jail cells with no lights or windows for 15 years. Until the laws are changed to start going after parents/guardians, this will keep happening.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 01, 2024, 11:03:59 pm
It's like most things technological. You can use it for good genuine purposes...or you can use it for bad deeds and evil.
The USA has cornered itself, because it can't act on guns and knives. Yet it acts on a platform!

How can FB be guilty, while Winchester is innocent?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on February 12, 2024, 09:06:42 pm
I’m not sure that you can blame the courts EB; they have to apply the laws passed by parliaments and, in the High Court’s case, abide by a constitution that was written in the 19th century.

Indefinite detention was always going to found to be unlawful and I can’t believe that the previous government and the incoming government didn’t have a fallback plan.

I know that many asylum seekers destroy their documentation or have fake documentation and it can be difficult to determine whether or not someone is a model citizen or a serial killer.  However, once an asylum seeker’s past criminal record is discovered, why aren’t they just shipped back to where they came from?  I know that we won’t send people back to a death sentence but most of these coves have served their sentences and aren’t in line for execution.

I’m not sure what the answer is for people who will be executed if returned home …. but I’m not paid the big bucks to resolve such matters.

Bail is fraught.  There are benefits from not incarcerating people who haven’t been found guilty but community safety must come first.  If there’s a chance that folk charged with a crime are likely to offend then bail shouldn’t be an option.

Remember Dan Andrews criticising VCAT for being the ultimate planning authority but never having to face the electorate?  I think the same argument is applied to the courts.  If the electorate is unhappy with sentencing, bail, or other decisions, they will take it out on the government.  Governments therefore try to be overly prescriptive with mandatory sentencing, bail, etc or try to use ministerial powers for matters that the various constitutions don’t permit.

It’s a flawed and dated system but I’m not sure there’s a better one.  If there was, there’s Buckley’s chance of amending the Australian constitution.

Edit: I was commenting on EB’s post but it’s gone.  You should get the gist 🙂
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 12, 2024, 10:11:40 pm
I’m not sure that you can blame the courts EB; they have to apply the laws passed by parliaments and, in the High Court’s case, abide by a constitution that was written in the 19th century.

Indefinite detention was always going to found to be unlawful and I can’t believe that the previous government and the incoming government didn’t have a fallback plan.

I know that many asylum seekers destroy their documentation or have fake documentation and it can be difficult to determine whether or not someone is a model citizen or a serial killer.  However, once an asylum seeker’s past criminal record is discovered, why aren’t they just shipped back to where they came from?  I know that we won’t send people back to a death sentence but most of these coves have served their sentences and aren’t in line for execution.

I’m not sure what the answer is for people who will be executed if returned home …. but I’m not paid the big bucks to resolve such matters.

Bail is fraught.  There are benefits from not incarcerating people who haven’t been found guilty but community safety must come first.  If there’s a chance that folk charged with a crime are likely to offend then bail shouldn’t be an option.

Remember Dan Andrews criticising VCAT for being the ultimate planning authority but never having to face the electorate?  I think the same argument is applied to the courts.  If the electorate is unhappy with sentencing, bail, or other decisions, they will take it out on the government.  Governments therefore try to be overly prescriptive with mandatory sentencing, bail, etc or try to use ministerial powers for matters that the various constitutions don’t permit.

It’s a flawed and dated system but I’m not sure there’s a better one.  If there was, there’s Buckley’s chance of amending the Australian constitution.

Edit: I was commenting on EB’s post but it’s gone.  You should get the gist 🙂
Sorry about that deleted post DJ but one of my reference links was missing/taken down so I deleted my post with the intention
of rewriting and looking for a new link with the following the best I could find but forgot about it....MrsE wanted me to watch MAFS...dont judge me🤐.
Anyway this link relates to my venting about the courts and Government in Aus and how stupid in my opinion releasing known asylum seeking criminals into the community is.
https://www.news.com.au/national/courts-law/full-list-of-murderers-and-sex-offenders-let-loose-after-high-court-ruling/news-story/e39786ce47ff353f31c59a862be12d8a
 My ire was also raised after the murder of a local doctor in my area by a kid/kids who were out on bail for serious crimes and should have remained locked up imo, but the courts seem so weak and wanting to pander to societies forgiving and rehabilitation approach to dealing with dangerous criminals they let these people out on bail far to freely imho.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Macca37 on February 13, 2024, 12:08:16 am
I read the other day that in the USA the mother and father of a fifteen-year-old have each been charged with involuntary manslaughter. Their son was responsible for the deaths by shooting of a number of children at a school.

Here in Australia, whenever youths offend, blame for their offending is always laid at the feet of the government of the day and/or the courts.  We get the obligatory hand-wringing, calls for more money to be spent, and for the age to be raised to fourteen before a person can be charged with an offence.

The Victorian Chief Commissioner of Police said yesterday that there is a hardcore of approximately 220 youth offenders known to police who account for the majority of serious youth crimes in this state.

Surely it is about time that the parents of repeat offenders should be held accountable, at least in part, for the actions of their children.

I am tired of society expecting governments of the day and the courts  to clear up the mess, come up with solutions, and yet parents are absolved of any responsibility for the behaviour of their children

Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on February 13, 2024, 12:51:38 am
In fact, the mother, who, together with her husband, bought the firearm, has been found guilty of four counts of involuntary manslaughter.  The husband is yet to be tried.

Apart from buying the firearm used in the massacre, the shooter's parents refused to believe their son's claims of mental health issues and failed to get him assessed or treated.  They also walked out of a meeting at the school on the morning of the shooting and declined to take their disturbed son home.

However, I recall discussing parents' responsibilities with my late brother who was a barrister.  He said that there is a long established principle in English law that parents can't be held responsible for the actions of their children.  In the American case, the mother was found guilty because her actions directly contributed to deaths.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on February 13, 2024, 08:32:50 am
The question of parental responsibility is an interesting one. I worked for over forty years with state wards and young offenders, A question I was often asked when I told people where I worked was “How much of the offending is the parents fault”.

I spent six years working in an assessment centre for State wards. It’s where the kids came when they were removed from their family situation. It would probably be regarded as a post ‘stolen generation’ time, but indigenous children were over-represented, much as they are in the juvenile justice system. There were also many non-indigenous kids and a more common theme for the intervention into their home life was probably ‘poverty’.

With both young offenders and children in need of protection (I’ll call them ‘Wards’ because that was the terminology of the time) there would be a case management plan and regular ‘case conferences’ that involved meetings of Centre admin staff, Psychologists, District officers, Teachers, House parents, Youth workers….and parents.
Rather than confident, well dressed, articulate and educated folks, the parents often presented as defensive, confused, and inadequate (I can’t control him/her)… and poor. Rarely was it both parents attending , and more often than not…just Mum.

So speaking (with a fair bit of generalisation, but experience)…
For young offenders (especially the hard-core group)…
What causes the offending behaviour.?
What aspects play into it?

Lack of parental control (certainly plays a part)
Peer Pressure. (plays a big part)
Boredom
Mental health issues
Educational instability (I had many kids at 14-15 who couldn’t read)
The thrill of it (Why steal a car and abandon it an hour later if not just for a bit of fun? )

So how much blame can be assigned to parents for the behaviour of hard core young offenders?
Parents sometimes aren’t even in the picture (the child is already under state protection, fostered)
Kids often come from single parent families.
The parents of young offenders have often had their own personal experience of incarceration.
Domestic violence and alcoholism are features of home life.
Families were often dependent on welfare and/or are struggling financially.
Throw in the fact that families were often large, and parents had responsibilities for younger children.

The point of all this is that we can’t judge the parents of young offenders by our own personal levels of responsibility in terms of education, wealth, parental skills and upbringing. For most of us it’s chalk and cheese. We are lucky enough to never have had to experience that background.
It’s a cycle of crime and the hard -core young offender is often the product of the influence of older offenders in terms of parents, siblings, other relatives and peers.
Financial and /or custodial penalties for the parents of young offenders would more than likely add to the burden.
While I understand the argument for some action against a parent of a hard core young offender, there wouldn’t be many in a position to cope with a penalty.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 13, 2024, 11:44:11 am
Educational instability (I had many kids at 14-15 who couldn’t read)
Yet I wonder how many effortlessly play a complex game like GtA or CoD that depends on interactive messaging to win?

I'm quite confused about the current debate, it seems to be running a middle ground between victim blaming parents to child abuse. I feel there needs to be a whole new level of ward for processing these kids, they sit outside the paradigm.

But I do feel some are definitely victims of manipulation, we see this more and more with car thefts and break ins. It's imperative we get to the generals behind theses crimes, the people who hide behind our societies willingness to give children who may be as young as 11 or 12 a second chance. In my opinion soliciting children into crime isn't punished harshly enough, the penalties should be heavier than if you do the crime yourself.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 14, 2024, 08:12:55 am
You wonder how kids are influenced, it's always the media blaming "parents", "crooks" or "peers", sure I get that it can be.

But then you start to read the shizen from Ten, News Corp and Wilkinson going on behind the scenes surrounding the Lehrmann trial, and you can't help but wonder.

We've seen this happening for some time, we see it with Trump, we see it with Thorpe, we see it with Bolt, and now it's got to the point that even in court the mainstream media isn't even adverse to gather ratings by exposing it's own lies. This isn't the bottom of the barrel, this barrel as no bottom!

These professional celebrity types aren't right in the head, media and social media has turning them rotten, morally and mentally, and there is not a single individual who can claim the high ground.

It's bizarre that they are just bickering over dollars, they should be charged!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Baggers on February 14, 2024, 10:29:05 am
Anyone else effected adversely by those ferocious winds yesterday! We were lucky (in West Gippsland) to not lose power... though I was waiting for the lights to go out! However, internet is not much better than dial-up at present!

 Thought of you, David (DJC) when reports of 6 power towers being blown over in the Greater Geelong region tripped Loy Yang A!

As a humourous aside, I was outside with our dog (Doberman) when the wind and thunder hit hard... her hackles went up as she barked at the skies but when the rain came she ducked for cover!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 14, 2024, 11:54:54 am
Lights flickered for me, but power stayed on.
Only thing that happened was a little white plastic chair was blown over.

Some co-workers were not so lucky.
3 of them have lost power in their houses.

One doesn't have power but is setup to cope without it.

One had to go buy a generator last night, but is otherwise ok.

Another one is pretty screwed.
He has no hot water because its electric.
He has no water at all because his property has water pumps.....which are electric.
He is also has a septic tank which has backed up because pumps stopped working because its electric.
On top of that, he couldn't get to his car as it was locked in the garage, and the only access from the outside was through the remote. Had to climb up on his roof, take roof tiles off just to release the garage door, just so he could get his car out.
Poor bugger.

I was out and about yesterday and saw a plaster deliver truck lose about 4 sheets off the back of it while they were unloading, when flying down the street and into some cars. Nobody was hurt.

Pretty wild for a while there.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 14, 2024, 01:19:05 pm
Nothing bad for us this time, friends are being told they'll be without power for 3 or 4 days.

Back in the 2020 storms we lost power for 14 days, it's not fun, but we had gas and our water pressure was never lost. I can't imagine being a suburb where you can't flush the bog!

Some councils have started banning gas, being completely dependant on one source of energy is poor risk management. You should have read some of the socials for our area today, all those EV adopters without something to plug into. One woman complained the kids had drained the last of the car battery recharging their phones, she couldn't even get out of the driveway, not sure if that's true or even possible but it was a good laugh! :o
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on February 14, 2024, 01:47:40 pm


Some councils have started banning gas, being completely dependant on one source of energy is poor risk management. You should have read some of the socials for our area today, all those EV adopters without something to plug into. One woman complained the kids had drained the last of the car battery recharging their phones, she couldn't even get out of the driveway, not sure if that's true or even possible but it was a good laugh! :o

Stick to spreading credible stories to express your dislike of renewables/ev.
I read on socials that someone brought the Exxon Valdez and said theyd never need to buy fuel again !
Dunno if its possible or where theyd park it but it was funny as all hell !
:/
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 14, 2024, 01:50:01 pm
However, I recall discussing parents' responsibilities with my late brother who was a barrister.  He said that there is a long established principle in English law that parents can't be held responsible for the actions of their children. In the American case, the mother was found guilty because her actions directly contributed to deaths.
And here lies the crux of the problem in my opinion, The responsibilities of adults, and the consequences of their actions,  just get kicked down the road. And who suffers? The families of the victim. If you locked up the parents/guardians along with child, people would start taking responsibility. I need to a licence to drive a car but not to raise/care for a child. These days, it should be the other way around I reckon.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Lods on February 14, 2024, 02:05:38 pm
And here lies the crux of the problem in my opinion, The responsibilities of adults, and the consequences of their actions,  just get kicked down the road. And who suffers? The families of the victim. If you locked up the parents/guardians along with child, people would start taking responsibility. I need to a licence to drive a car but not to raise/care for a child. These days, it should be the other way around I reckon.

But the problem is that the parents and guardians of the kids committing many of these offences are already locked up, have been, or are about to be.
If every one of these parents was a well off, middle class person with no drug, alcohol or domestic violence issues pervading their lives there might be some chance of imposing a parental responibility that impacted, but that's not the case for the families of most repeat young offenders.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 14, 2024, 02:34:00 pm
But the problem is that the parents and guardians of the kids committing many of these offences are already locked up, have been, or are about to be.
If every one of these parents was a well off, middle class person with no drug, alcohol or domestic violence issues pervading their lives there might be some chance of imposing a parental responibility that impacted, but that's not the case for the families of most repeat young offenders.

I dont doubt that there are many examples of the former, Ill also bet my left one that there are parents int he latter category that you mentioned who are either oblivious to what their kids are up to or just dont give a crap. Haul those ones in and make them accountable. As for wards of the state, surely the state is responsible? Nuffs Enuff.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 14, 2024, 02:43:04 pm
Stick to spreading credible stories to express your dislike of renewables/ev.
I read on socials that someone brought the Exxon Valdez and said theyd never need to buy fuel again !
Dunno if its possible or where theyd park it but it was funny as all hell !
:/
Councils banning new gas connections is a fact.

As mentioned I wasn't sure the EV flat battery story was true or a just a good laugh, having said that, of those 220,000 homes without remaining power how do they get the old EV charged now, down the road to pay the dollars?

Takes that old sicky excuse, "My car has a flat battery", to a whole new level! ;D

btw., Is that recharging fee like Uber rates, subject to peak demand surcharges? If not I expect somewhere somehow it soon will be, as soon as some executive realises the windfall coming his way. After all, it's the new fuel!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 14, 2024, 02:47:47 pm
Curious, Could you pull out your camping solar panels cells and charge you EV, or charge a spare battery and use that to charge your EV?
Wouldn't be able to provide the same amount of oomph as your wall sockets for sure, but could get you out of trouble?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on February 14, 2024, 03:15:30 pm
Every family can have a bad egg.
Ive met police, firies, Drs etc with several "typical kids" and one bad egg, so not every bad one comes from a poor home environment.
Lods in my opinion is on the money, some types of family do produce cartons of bad eggs.
For the chest thumpers, how many jails do you want to build ?
There is a balance to be reached between retribution/punishment and diversion/education and not only is it a difficult choice to get 100% right, its a long, long term game.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 14, 2024, 03:25:49 pm
Curious, Could you pull out your camping solar panels cells and charge you EV, or charge a spare battery and use that to charge your EV?
Wouldn't be able to provide the same amount of oomph as your wall sockets for sure, but could get you out of trouble?
As far as I know it doesn't work like that, EV batteries are massive arrays of smaller cells, to charge them you need quite high DC voltages, not something that comes from your typical small SolarPV or lead acid battery. Probably a portable inverter / generator might get you started, which is a tad ironic.

It does make you wonder though what is the RACV equivalent of road side assist for an EV, maybe you can use one EV to partially charge another. I think many EVs like a Landcruiser come with a built in low power inverter. I gather the missus won't have a spare of that cable in her purse?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on February 14, 2024, 03:26:40 pm
Curious, Could you pull out your camping solar panels cells and charge you EV, or charge a spare battery and use that to charge your EV?
Wouldn't be able to provide the same amount of oomph as your wall sockets for sure, but could get you out of trouble?

Possibly, but you might just be piiising against the wind.
And anyone who has an ev without home/work place solar is a bit like someone who would buy a brand new car with no intention of obtaining a license.
Why pay retail for electricity when you can make it yourself ?
The bigger problem at the moment is that battery costs are still high but falling so peoples solar set ups are still grid tied (exporting excess) but when the grid goes down so does your home, if you have a battery to feed into that is still available in an outage.
My understanding is that most ev have two batteries, a traction battery for the motor and a "house" battery for the other stuff.
I find it difficult to believe that any ev could run down to 0% thats what their BMS are designed to prevent.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 14, 2024, 03:28:56 pm
I find it difficult to believe that any ev could run down to 0% thats what their BMS are designed to prevent.
This is 100% true, it'll cut off the battery long before you get anywhere near completely flat. Like power tools most are designed to only go down to something like 15% capacity before they shut off. If you could drain them flat they would be at risk of swelling which then causes explosions on recharge.

If you can't start the car, does it really matter how much is left in the battery?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on February 14, 2024, 03:32:23 pm
This is 100% true, but it'll cut off the battery long before you get anywhere near completely flat. Like power tools most are designed to only go down to something like 15% capacity before they shut off.

If you can't start the car, does it really matter how much is left in the battery?

In that case its a bit like an ice that runs out of petrol then isnt it ?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 14, 2024, 03:38:00 pm
In that case its a bit like an ice that runs out of petrol then isnt it ?
True, there is always a little fuel left in the tank.

Even so, the story is still funny as hell. Next time I'm having a day off, after our glorious finals win, I'll tell the boss my Nintendo Switch flattened the battery!
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on February 14, 2024, 04:03:07 pm
As far as I know it doesn't work like that, EV batteries are massive arrays of smaller cells, to charge them you need quite high DC voltages, not something that comes from your typical small SolarPV or lead acid battery. Probably a portable inverter / generator might get you started, which is a tad ironic.


It does make you wonder though what is the RACV equivalent of road side assist for an EV, maybe you can use one EV to partially charge another. I think many EVs like a Landcruiser come with a built in low power inverter. I gather the missus won't have a spare of that cable in her purse?

As i have stated previously that I'm not an ev owner but my understanding is that "fast chargers" use DC and most home chargers use AC.
I'd imagine that pending suitable connections you could top up an ev using camping solar panels or another battery, but how much could they put in over what timeframe ?
There are Lithium battery packs the size of small gensets that are used in camping situations where you'd connect them to solar and/or your car alternator when driving (anderson plug) possibly pending connections one COULD be used to move an ev a short distance, maybe...
Think of it as a 5lt gerrycan, it aint much but its more than you've got now...

Ive never heard of anyone leaving their ev sitting around on such a low charge, it would defy logic, even yours ! :D
Let alone the reality that your ev is capable of being your house battery, charging off your home solar during the day and feeding back into your home by night... or when mains power is lost.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 14, 2024, 04:56:29 pm
As i have stated previously that I'm not an ev owner but my understanding is that "fast chargers" use DC and most home chargers use AC.
I'd imagine that pending suitable connections you could top up an ev using camping solar panels or another battery, but how much could they put in over what timeframe ?
There are Lithium battery packs the size of small gensets that are used in camping situations where you'd connect them to solar and/or your car alternator when driving (anderson plug) possibly pending connections one COULD be used to move an ev a short distance, maybe...
Think of it as a 5lt gerrycan, it aint much but its more than you've got now...

Ive never heard of anyone leaving their ev sitting around on such a low charge, it would defy logic, even yours ! :D
Let alone the reality that your ev is capable of being your house battery, charging off your home solar during the day and feeding back into your home by night... or when mains power is lost.
A 12v $60 Jump Starter will start your EV but you cant charge the battery with them, a Jackery or Bluetti type powerstation at the top end might be able to supply 1800-2000watts which could give you 10-12 kilometres worth of juice but thats going to set you back $3-4K.
You can use your EV to power your home, you need a bidirectional charger so you can convert DC back to AC for your home.....I believe but dont quote me that a couple of the present Mitsubishi's one being the Outlander PHEV can be configured for BiDirectional charging. Id expect it to become the norm across all EVs as well as being able to power appliances directly.
Think I read that a EV from Nissan was trialled in Japan and powered a house for 4 days.....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on February 14, 2024, 05:20:25 pm
A 12v $60 Jump Starter will start your EV but you cant charge the battery with them, a Jackery or Bluetti type powerstation at the top end might be able to supply 1800-2000watts which could give you 10-12 kilometres worth of juice but thats going to set you back $3-4K.
You can use your EV to power your home, you need a bidirectional charger so you can convert DC back to AC for your home.....I believe but dont quote me that a couple of the present Mitsubishi's one being the Outlander PHEV can be configured for BiDirectional charging. Id expect it to become the norm across all EVs as well as being able to power appliances directly.
Think I read that a EV from Nissan was trialled in Japan and powered a house for 4 days.....

Yeah, it all comes down to battery capacity and load.
I've spoken to guys with tesla powerwalls (20Kwh ?) and plugging in their 70odd Kwh cars and lasting 3-4 days.
The bottom line is its all doable with some planning on your part and the gov.

Speaking of governments role, I also believe that the NT still has 3 large scale solar arrays that have been completed for 2+ years but our electricity distributor hasnt ticked them off to allow them to connect to the grid !
Sitting there idle.

I've spoken to guy overseas who has just handed back his electricity meter because for the past 2 years (I've seen pics of his bills) his consumption charge was $0 per month.
He was happy to pay the daily charge to have mains  backup but got constant grief in the form of various random inspections because they didnt believe he was using no power.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 14, 2024, 05:52:58 pm
As i have stated previously that I'm not an ev owner but my understanding is that "fast chargers" use DC and most home chargers use AC.
All batteries are charged with DC, whether the charge circuit converts DC to DC or AC to DC makes no difference, most EV cars have smart sockets for both AC or DC charging. DC can mean CW(Constant Wattage, Constant Current, Constant Voltage) or Pulsed dependant on the charger design, but it's all DC. Some modulate power by varying voltage, others use PWM(Pulse Width Modulation.), many use a mix of both to recharge and condition batteries electrodes at the same time.

If you have a 12v / 240v inverter, you can use a 12v source like a lead acid battery to charge your EV enough to get it to a charge station. You could use jumper cables to run an inverter off the idling petrol or diesel vehicle, and the outback charge stations are often just diesel generators which have an integrated 240v inverter, coin or credit card operated of course, and which of course completely invalidates the carbon neutral use of an EV.

Most portable SolarPV won't have anywhere near the power to give any useful range via an inverter, at least not in a single day of charging, it would be like trying to warm your bath water with a candle. The best rooftop SolarPV panels are much more efficient than the portables and yet roof top panels typically only deliver a few hundred watts each day, I think the very best make it to about 650 Watts in a perfect conditions. Good portable panels are about 50% of the solid roof top variety. Your EV battery and motors are measured in tens of Kilowatts, I think a low end Tesla is in the order of 60 ~ 70Kw!

An interesting point, it you bolted a solid SolarPV to the roof of your Tesla in a weird attempt to extend the range, you would actually lose range, because the weight and drag of the panel more than offsets the energy it creates.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on February 14, 2024, 06:02:19 pm
All batteries are charged with DC, whether the charge circuit converts DC to DC or AC to DC makes no difference, most EV cars have smart sockets for both AC or DC charging. DC can mean CW(Constant Wattage, Constant Current, Constant Voltage) or Pulsed dependant on the charger design, but it's all DC. Some modulate power by varying voltage, others use PWM(Pulse Width Modulation.)

If you have a 12v / 240v inverter, you can use a 12v source like a lead acid battery to charge your EV enough to get it to a charge station. You could use jumper cables to run an inverter off the idling petrol or diesel vehicle, and the outback charge stations are often just diesel generators which have an integrated 240v inverter, coin or credit card operated of course.

Most portable SolarPV won't have anywhere near the power to give any useful range via an inverter, at least not in a single day of charging, it would be like trying to warm your bath water with a candle. The best rooftop SolarPV panels are much more efficient than the portables and yet roof top panels typically only deliver a few hundred watts each day, I think the very best make it to about 650 Watts on a perfect conditions. Good portable panels are about 50% of the solid roof top variety. Your EV battery and motors are measured in tens of Kilowatts, I think a low end Tesla is in the order of 60 ~ 70Kw!

An interesting point, it you bolted a solid SolarPV to the roof of your Tesla in a weird attempt to extend the range, you would actually lose range, because the weight and drag of the panel more than offsets the energy it creates.

""When it comes to electric mobility, two types of electrical currents can be used to charge an electric vehicle (EV)—AC (alternating current) and DC (direct current).

All home EV chargers and the majority of public charging stations use AC, while DC is used for fast charging.

When we talk about charging an EV, the main difference between AC and DC charging (and the time it takes to do so) is where the conversion from AC to DC happens, i.e. in the vehicle or the charging station.

    The power that comes from the grid is always AC (alternating current).
    The energy stored in batteries is always DC (direct current).

This article explores the differences between AC and DC EV charging and takes a look at how it works.""

https://blog.evbox.com/difference-between-ac-and-dc

Without looking for my tape measure so we can have a measure off that is the first article that came up when I googled.
Whilst you're not wrong that at some point its gotta be DC that goes into the battery, we were talking about charging points and you claimed that all charging points are DC.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 14, 2024, 06:09:02 pm
Yeah, it all comes down to battery capacity and load.
I've spoken to guys with tesla powerwalls (20Kwh ?) and plugging in their 70odd Kwh cars and lasting 3-4 days.
The bottom line is its all doable with some planning on your part and the gov.

Speaking of governments role, I also believe that the NT still has 3 large scale solar arrays that have been completed for 2+ years but our electricity distributor hasnt ticked them off to allow them to connect to the grid !
Sitting there idle.

I've spoken to guy overseas who has just handed back his electricity meter because for the past 2 years (I've seen pics of his bills) his consumption charge was $0 per month.
He was happy to pay the daily charge to have mains  backup but got constant grief in the form of various random inspections because they didnt believe he was using no power.
The NT was/is always a bit of a mess with solar, think an Italian conglomerate own a few of the facilities and the system up there has too many cooks in the kitchen. They wont connect those solar facilities to the grid because of storage battery issues and a fear the ageing infrastructure will fall over plus when you connect a lot of solar arrays at once you get poorer regulation which means dirty power which spikes the line up to very high voltages which kills older infrastructure so they switch those feeds off.
They will probably need to get a 3rd party Engineering Consultant company in to test and sign off on the system because thats how it usually works and they dont come cheap.
NT Government give good rebates on EV vehicles dont they?
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on February 14, 2024, 06:33:31 pm
The NT was/is always a bit of a mess with solar, think an Italian conglomerate own a few of the facilities and the system up there has too many cooks in the kitchen. They wont connect those solar facilities to the grid because of storage battery issues and a fear the ageing infrastructure will fall over plus when you connect a lot of solar arrays at once you get poorer regulation which means dirty power which spikes the line up to very high voltages which kills older infrastructure so they switch those feeds off.
They will probably need to get a 3rd party Engineering Consultant company in to test and sign off on the system because thats how it usually works and they dont come cheap.
NT Government give good rebates on EV vehicles dont they?

You're certainly more knowledgeable of the tech side than me lol.
I do know a guy who is involved in the remote generation and distribution and he did say that the biggest problem with solar production was things like cloud cover, as in everything is humming along and a cloud comes over and output drops, batteries are needed to keep everything running whilst the (usually) diesel generator kicks in.
He says its not bad, it just needs to be integrated and well managed.

I'm not sure of the ev subsidy's but I believe the battery one is better than most.
Something that helps NT take up solar and battery is that many are remote, at least compared to you mob down south.
Even if theres power to the front, the acreage can still make renewables stack up well price wise.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 14, 2024, 07:04:34 pm
If you have a 12v / 240v inverter, you can use a 12v source like a lead acid battery to charge your EV enough to get it to a charge station. You could use jumper cables to run an inverter off the idling petrol or diesel vehicle, and the outback charge stations are often just diesel generators which have an integrated 240v inverter, coin or credit card operated of course, and which of course completely invalidates the carbon neutral use of an EV.

Just curious, because i have a foldable 200W solar panel which i use to top up my 2nd (and 3rd) batteries while i am camping. 1 is lithium.
My 2nd battery is hooked up to the car and charges while i drive and cuts off if it gets too low. It lives permananetly in my canopy.
The 3rd battery is encased in a cheap battery box that i pull out of the canopy and sit next to my camping fridge for days on end. Powers lights and my phone.
I've also got a Milwaukee charger that comes with a 12v cig socket that can charge up my tool batteries....which i use for lights, chainsaws, radio, whatever.

With that setup, even if overcast or raining, i can pretty much be self sustaining for....as long as i need to be. Recently i set up the solar panel underneath our gazebo (in the shade, while it was raining) and it was still getting enough sun to charge my battery.

I also have a 1500W invertor i can use to get 240v plugs if required.

So...if i can live outdoors with that setup, surely it could help me charge a car. Not sure what type of current draw they take, or how much power storage is typically on board, but to me it seems like a half decent alternative to hooking up to the grid.
Obviously, you could get bigger outdoor solar panels pretty easily to beef up the system as well. They are relatively cheap.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 14, 2024, 07:13:08 pm
Just curious, because i have a foldable 200W solar panel which i use to top up my 2nd (and 3rd) batteries while i am camping. 1 is lithium.
My 2nd battery is hooked up to the car and charges while i drive and cuts off if it gets too low. It lives permananetly in my canopy.
The 3rd battery is encased in a cheap battery box that i pull out of the canopy and sit next to my camping fridge for days on end. Powers lights and my phone.
I've also got a Milwaukee charger that comes with a 12v cig socket that can charge up my tool batteries....which i use for lights, chainsaws, radio, whatever.

With that setup, even if overcast or raining, i can pretty much be self sustaining for....as long as i need to be. Recently i set up the solar panel underneath our gazebo (in the shade, while it was raining) and it was still getting enough sun to charge my battery.

I also have a 1500W invertor i can use to get 240v plugs if required.

So...if i can live outdoors with that setup, surely it could help me charge a car. Not sure what type of current draw they take, or how much power storage is typically on board, but to me it seems like a half decent alternative to hooking up to the grid.
Obviously, you could get bigger outdoor solar panels pretty easily to beef up the system as well. They are relatively cheap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPTs_KOvtX0
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 14, 2024, 08:56:37 pm
Id like to see some more of his videos to get a better understanding of how serious he is with that as it appears to be one big piss take to me.

But he'd do a lot better if he turned his car around 90 degrees to face the sun rather than be side on to it.

...but at least it's somewhat plausible.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 15, 2024, 08:10:40 am
Id like to see some more of his videos to get a better understanding of how serious he is with that as it appears to be one big piss take to me.

But he'd do a lot better if he turned his car around 90 degrees to face the sun rather than be side on to it.

...but at least it's somewhat plausible.
If you had the time to sit and wait for a charge, days, and if your next destination was close enough on fairly flat or downhill run, you'd have a chance. In that video the effective charge rate with four 100W portable SolarPV panels was several hours per kilowatt. That's several hours for a few kilometres of flat conservative driving, if you didn't need to transport stuff you could probably walk that far faster than waiting for the charge.

Let's say his portable SolarPV can give him 2Kw per day charging, ignoring the standby current consumption, that's 40 days for a full charge off an 80Kw battery.

Keep in mind, your off-road EV is going to be bigger and heavier than say a Tesla S, but even a Tesla S use about an 80Kw or 98Kw battery to get to full range. I read some reports the 4WD EV might use batteries as high as 120Kw to 150Kw.

Real world range depends on many things such as terrain, weather, regenerative braking, driving style, etc., etc.. Actually, I know people who have toured for hundreds of kilometres around the Blue Mountains in a Tesla and used only 40km of battery range through regenerative braking, but it was a carefully planned trip just to see if it was possible.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on February 15, 2024, 08:48:21 am
Anyone else effected adversely by those ferocious winds yesterday! We were lucky (in West Gippsland) to not lose power... though I was waiting for the lights to go out! However, internet is not much better than dial-up at present!

 Thought of you, David (DJC) when reports of 6 power towers being blown over in the Greater Geelong region tripped Loy Yang A!

As a humourous aside, I was outside with our dog (Doberman) when the wind and thunder hit hard... her hackles went up as she barked at the skies but when the rain came she ducked for cover!

We copped the wind gusts but the Bellarine didn’t have power outages.

As often happens, the rain cells passed to our north and south and we only got 0.5mm of rain when a decent soaking is sorely needed.

Some folk are still without power and it seems that they will be for some time.  The six towers on the Mooroobool-Sydenham line will take a while to replace.

The cost of such widespread outages, both in terms of infrastructure and cost to families, industry and primary producers must give cause to revisit underground powerlines, particularly when similar weather events are now quite common.

Our hounds slept through the storm.  The horse can be spooked by wind noise but he just turned his butt to the wind and continued chomping grass.

The neighbours’ vineyard has been copping a pounding from the wind and they are constantly repairing the bird netting.  I imagine their workload grew significantly.

Interestingly, even with Loy Yang and one of the largest wind farms off line, we still had too much power for the network and had to power shed.  The weak link is our vulnerable transmission and distribution infrastructure.

Here’s hoping folk get their power back soon … and governments starting thinking about weather proofing the system.




Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on February 15, 2024, 08:51:50 am
Just to back up slightly Krudds, look up the world solar challenge:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Solar_Challenge

It’s been held every few years since the early ‘90s.
Solar powered cars start in Darwin and “race” to Adelaide, with the winners usually sitting on the speed limit most of the way for 3000km.
What originally started as freaky solar panels with wheels has become almost mainstream looking vehicles, so what you are proposing IS doable but probably not very practical with “a couple of kings panels and an old battery from the shed”
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 15, 2024, 12:06:34 pm
What originally started as freaky solar panels with wheels has become almost mainstream looking vehicles, so what you are proposing IS doable but probably not very practical with “a couple of kings panels and an old battery from the shed”
The whole battery for a Solar Challenge car is limited to 21kg.

A small EV like a Tesla S weighs 2200kg and the battery is about 600kg alone, batteries for a 4WD EV are likely to be twice the weight, power/capacity basically scales with weight.

A Tesla probably consumes more power than a Solar Challenger just by booting the cars computer!

The NT is selected for the Solar Challenge due to the long straight mostly level roads and plenty of sun, years ago I watched a talk by one of the competitors and he mentioned that the car took kilometres to gradually accelerate to full cruising speed because the motors are so low power. During testing he mentioned someone loaded the bearings with the wrong type of grease, they used steering column grease instead of the special wheel bearing grease, and it destroyed the whole vehicles performance. I suppose that is a side effect of performance designed around low friction and low aerodynamic packaging.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: DJC on February 15, 2024, 12:32:33 pm
The whole battery for a Solar Challenge car is limited to 21kg.

A small EV like a Tesla S weighs 2200kg and the battery is about 600kg alone, batteries for a 4WD EV are likely to be twice the weight, power/capacity basically scales with weight.

A Tesla probably consumes more power than a Solar Challenger just by booting the cars computer!

The NT is selected for the Solar Challenge due to the long straight mostly level roads and plenty of sun, years ago I watched a talk by one of the competitors and he mentioned that the car took kilometres to gradually accelerate to full cruising speed because the motors are so low power. During testing he mentioned someone loaded the bearings with the wrong type of grease, they used steering column grease instead of the special wheel bearing grease, and it destroyed the whole vehicles performance. I suppose that is a side effect of performance designed around low friction and low aerodynamic packaging.

You do realise that the solar challenge route is from Darwin to Adelaide and there are plenty of steep grades on the route.  Bad weather has played a role in several challenges with vehicle being blown off the road and running out of power because of overcast conditions.

The Cruiser Class vehicles have no limits on battery size and are permitted to use non-solar sources for charging.  They must complete a 1,000km stage before recharging from non-solar sources.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 15, 2024, 01:00:58 pm
You do realise that the solar challenge route is from Darwin to Adelaide and there are plenty of steep grades on the route. 
Sure we get that, but it's nothing as a percentage of the total route, gradients on the Solar Challenge are like a chicane on a F1 track.

For reference, we were talking about the use of portable SolarPV to recharge / power a commercial EV, and I was commenting in context of @kruddler discussing Off-road / Off-grid applications.

The Solar Challenger Cruiser class is basically an open class being recharged at various grid or fuel power recharging centres, although they are great pieces of technology demonstration they are not that relevant to a discussion about EV with portable SolarPV recharging. The Cruiser class has been dominated by universities sponsored by big industry or big R&D entities some vehicles are worth million$, the GaAS SolarPVs used in that challenge are so expensive they are normally only used in space. Even in this open class, the cars are a fraction the weight of commercial EVs, about 25%.

btw. Those bespoke GaAS panels, that make 800W/sqm, they aren't 10x or even 50x the cost, they can be 500x the cost of silicon. The reason why silicon is dominant despite on average being about 50% less efficient than GaAS. GaAS is also used in semiconductors, the unit cost of GaAS devices even at the mass scale of transitors (FETS, etc..) is about 10x the cost of silicon.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: kruddler on February 15, 2024, 06:38:42 pm
Just to back up slightly Krudds, look up the world solar challenge:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Solar_Challenge

It’s been held every few years since the early ‘90s.
Solar powered cars start in Darwin and “race” to Adelaide, with the winners usually sitting on the speed limit most of the way for 3000km.
What originally started as freaky solar panels with wheels has become almost mainstream looking vehicles, so what you are proposing IS doable but probably not very practical with “a couple of kings panels and an old battery from the shed”

I remember that stuff from the 90s and i'd hardly call them cars. From memory they are very much lightweight cocoons wrapped in solar panel. For aerodynamics and weight saving, they usually were 'piloted' by kids laying flat.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 15, 2024, 06:53:38 pm
I remember that stuff from the 90s and i'd hardly call them cars. From memory they are very much lightweight cocoons wrapped in solar panel. For aerodynamics and weight saving, they usually were 'piloted' by kids laying flat.
You are right they were nothing like cars, they looked like baby air gliders on wheels with a little cabin on the front and the back was like a wide wing solar panel configuration. The driver would have to be jockey size and would have boiled alive in such cramped conditions.....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on February 15, 2024, 10:12:29 pm
Yet if you look at the cars now they do at least resemble cars.
They are after all, cutting edge technology demonstrations not retail vehicles.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 15, 2024, 10:38:26 pm
Yet if you look at the cars now they do at least resemble cars.
They are after all, cutting edge technology demonstrations not retail vehicles.
NB..With his clever marketing I think Elon Musk has created an expectation with his worldwide best selling cars that EV's have to have that futuristic look and a high tech name to go with it....My fav is The Cyber Truck that has both the look and name that makes you think you have stepped into the future even though I believe it already has a rust issue 😶.
https://www.motor1.com/news/708690/tesla-cybertruck-porsche-911-turbo-s-drag-race/
Looks like something out of a Mad Max film....
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: northernblue on February 15, 2024, 10:49:43 pm
NT...With his clever marketing I think Elon Musk has created an expectation with his worldwide best selling cars that EV's have to have that futuristic look and a high tech name to go with it....My fav is The Cyber Truck that has both the look and name that makes you think you have stepped into the future even though I believe it already has a rust issue 😶.
https://www.motor1.com/news/708690/tesla-cybertruck-porsche-911-turbo-s-drag-race/
Looks like something out of a Mad Max film....

Agree it’s pig ugly.
Apparently it’s also RAM sized which disappoints me greatly.
Title: Re: General Discussions
Post by: LP on February 16, 2024, 11:51:06 am
If you want to see how an EV should look on the outside, at least in my opinion, do a search for some of Henrik Fisker's vehicles.
Fisker Karma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_Karma)
Fisker Revero (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_Revero)

In fairness, Fisker has similar problems to Tesla with the odd vehicle randomly igniting unexpectedly, but that's all about making batteries not the technology.

Tesla promised the EV apparatchiks Self-Driving with interfaces that looked like an iPad, but it has never really eventuated and my understanding is they are still a ways off, a bit like Nuclear Fusion. Actually it appears the Self-driving stuff is going backwards with several early adopter regions now banning them after unusual accidents caused by Tesla, GM, Google and a bunch of others self-driving fleets.