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Re: General Discussions

Reply #1080 –
Quote from: Mav on
But if you wore a uniform provided by your employer and your employer had the right to put a 🌈 on it, you’d wear it then, wouldn’t you …
Wearing a prescribed uniform is usually a condition of employment you sign up to, any changes to those conditions are usually the subject of discussion between employer and employee. There was no discussion....fail Manly football club.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1081 –
If your contract says you have to wear a uniform with whatever signs for sponsors and causes that the employer directs from time to time, then there’s no obligation to consult. I’m guessing that’s exactly the case with AFL contracts and I doubt large companies would agree to individual consultations with their workforce or a veto to any employee who has an issue.

Are you suggesting players at Manly had to agree to the Points Bet sponsorship or that individual players had the right to play in a guernsey which didn’t bear that sponsor’s name? That would be ridiculous.

My guess is that Manly had the right to modify the guernsey as they did without being legally required to consult. There was no suggestion that the players would sue to be able to play in the old jumper. After all, the NRL was well aware of this issue after The Izzy Folau saga and would have made sure the standard contract gave the NRL and clubs absolute control of their guernseys.

Manly could be criticised for failing to head off this issue given that it wasn’t willing to pull the trigger by threatening 7 players with the sack. That was the error.

AFAIK, there’s no right to a conscientious objection. The Izzy Folau case swung on whether the ARU’s contract allowed it to regulate the sort of social media comments that Folau was making.

One surprising revelation in the wake of this saga was that Willie Hopoate refused to play games on Sundays on the grounds that Sunday is the Sabbath. Can you imagine an AFL player pulling that stunt?

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1082 –
One of the big differences between AFL and NRL is the number of Pacific Islanders in League.
Yes, Religion plays a big part in these societies...but
Just a curious aside to this debate....one of my friends is a lay preacher with the Uniting Church.
He does regular pieces at Sunday services.
He was born in Samoa of Australian parents while his father was a minister there over 60 years ago.

He was most outspoken in support of the same sex marriage debate and also super critical of the anti vaxxers during that discussion.
From comments I've read from his church group it seems they were also quite supportive of his views.
I suspect a lot of it falls back to a personal interpretation dependent on close influences.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1083 –
If they lived by every Biblical edict instead of just selecting the ones that support their biases, or the ones they've been spoon fed, it would at least be consistent. Two of those Manly players have arm tattoos, which according to Leviticus 19.28, is not allowed.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1084 –
Quote from: Lods on
One of the big differences between AFL and NRL is the number of Pacific Islanders in League.
Yes, Religion plays a big part in these societies...but
Just a curious aside to this debate....one of my friends is a lay preacher with the Uniting Church.
He does regular pieces at Sunday services.
He was born in Samoa of Australian parents while his father was a minister there over 60 years ago.

He was most outspoken in support of the same sex marriage debate and also super critical of the anti vaxxers during that discussion.
From comments I've read from his church group it seems they were also quite supportive of his views.
I suspect a lot of it falls back to a personal interpretation dependent on close influences.


I'm sure Pacific Islander Christians exist on a spectrum, like most groups.
 

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1085 –
Easy fix. Have a Christian round where the players can all wear crosses to show their support for the Christian population.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1086 –
Quote from: PaulP on
I think there is more than enough time to do your bit, even with the plethora of causes that exist in what is IMO a broken world. You don't have to give your life to a cause, but there are plenty of things to be done, even if they're only small.

I call BS on that.
If true, you won't have an issue describing what you've done in each of the examples i gave you before.
Once you're done with that, i will provide another list, and continue.

Before we move on, i assume you are vegetarian because of the issue with eating meat.
I assume you grow your own food.......own enough solar panels to run your whole house...or live in a commune....and drive a hybrid car.....or better yet a bicycle.
You would also volounteer at homeless shelters. Do all your shopping at savers....and donate the majority of your wage to those unable to keep a roof over their head

If you don't do any of those things, you must be a hypocrite.  :P

Quote from: PaulP on
Being apathetic to, for example the Manly jumper issue, is clearly not as bad as being blatantly hostile and violent to gays, but neither does it help. And I would argue sitting on the fence does more harm than good. Think of the Germans who turned a blind, apathetic eye to the plight of the Jews during WWII. You could perhaps understand their reluctance, given that any opposition would likely result in death. But those circumstances don't exist any longer, which is why I don't understand the resistance to the Pride jumper.
In a modern world, in a modern age, we should take into account peoples mental health. Perhaps Manly jumper dissenters did so because they would be bullied and/or teased by family and/or friends for doing so. Some extreme measure could involved being disowned.
Should they not be allowed to say no to wearing something that could lead to their family and/or friends disowning them?

Quote from: PaulP on
There's a lot of bad theology going around....
...and everytime there is, problems arise.
Each to their own, but if there was no religion in the world, it would be a happier place.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1087 –
Quote from: madbluboy on
Easy fix. Have a Christian round where the players can all wear crosses to show their support for the Christian population.
Would they before or after ramadan round....or should that be ramadan month?

Gotta stop footy on sundays for the sabbath.....or saturday.....depends on which religion you are.

Going to have to stop using leather on the footballs because using animal products is wrong too.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1088 –
Not practising their religion, that would be like telling the Manly boys to dress up like Boy George.

2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1089 –
Quote from: kruddler on
I call BS on that.
If true, you won't have an issue describing what you've done in each of the examples i gave you before.
Once you're done with that, i will provide another list, and continue.

Before we move on, i assume you are vegetarian because of the issue with eating meat.
I assume you grow your own food.......own enough solar panels to run your whole house...or live in a commune....and drive a hybrid car.....or better yet a bicycle.
You would also volounteer at homeless shelters. Do all your shopping at savers....and donate the majority of your wage to those unable to keep a roof over their head

If you don't do any of those things, you must be a hypocrite.  :P
...

So, because I'm not Mother Teresa, Gandhi, and JI Rodale rolled into one, and because I don't have limitless funds to upgrade my car, house, and give my wage away and live off a few pennies, I must be a hypocrite because I think some players should wear a stripey jumper once per year ?

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1090 –
Quote from: Mav on
But if you wore a uniform provided by your employer and your employer had the right to put a 🌈 on it, you’d wear it then, wouldn’t you …

I refused.

I also didn't put a badge with he/him on it.

Didn't use the signature with pronouns either.

None of it necessary or important.   I went to work to earn a crust not be socially engineered. 

The look I got when I refused the ribbon from the people handing them out.  You would think I shot Bambi.  My Muslim counterpart refused too. 

If I wasn't Christian.  Id still refuse.  Christianity has nothing to do with the price of fish.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1091 –
In other words, in your case there was no contractual obligation, so you were in a different position to footballers who have an obligation to do so in their contracts. Apples, oranges.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1092 –
Quote from: PaulP on
So, because I'm not Mother Teresa, Gandhi, and JI Rodale rolled into one, and because I don't have limitless funds to upgrade my car, house, and give my wage away and live off a few pennies, I must be a hypocrite because I think some players should wear a stripey jumper once per year ?
You said there is more than enough time to support all the causes. I took issue with this.
Quote
I think there is more than enough time to do your bit, even with the plethora of causes that exist in what is IMO a broken world.
I'm just pointing out there is plenty to do, and not enough time. SO people pick and choose what they will and won't ACTIVELY support.

Apathy does not equal opposition.

Thus, just because they do not support, does not mean they are opposed.

...and as mentioned, there could be other reasons they do not support.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1093 –
Quote from: kruddler on
You said there is more than enough time to support all the causes. I took issue with this.I'm just pointing out there is plenty to do, and not enough time. SO people pick and choose what they will and won't ACTIVELY support.

Apathy does not equal opposition.

Thus, just because they do not support, does not mean they are opposed.

...and as mentioned, there could be other reasons they do not support.


this is what I said :

I think there is more than enough time to do your bit, even with the plethora of causes that exist in what is IMO a broken world. You don't have to give your life to a cause, but there are plenty of things to be done, even if they're only small.

I emphasize small gestures that are manageable by the average person, and you come out with a hit list that no human could ever meet, and then say I'm a hypocrite. Righto then.




Quote from: kruddler on
In a modern world, in a modern age, we should take into account peoples mental health. Perhaps Manly jumper dissenters did so because they would be bullied and/or teased by family and/or friends for doing so. Some extreme measure could involved being disowned.
Should they not be allowed to say no to wearing something that could lead to their family and/or friends disowning them?

If that's the case, then why not come out and say it, instead of hiding behind some flaky Theological pretense ? It's been obvious all along. All of us are motivated by a need for security, a need to belong, all of us seek validation and acceptance by our tribe and our community. Nobody wants to be ostracized. Being the lone dissenter is worse for some people than being the spare pr1ck at a Jewish wedding. I get it.

Re: General Discussions

Reply #1094 –
Quote from: kruddler on
........................................

Thus, just because they do not support, does not mean they are opposed.
.............................................................

So if you don't support the pride jumper, and you don't oppose the pride jumper, this means what exactly ?