Carlton Supporters Club

Lily Of Laguna => Ladies Lounge => Topic started by: madbluboy on October 18, 2017, 12:18:10 pm

Title: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: madbluboy on October 18, 2017, 12:18:10 pm
(http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/54c13ac5a0399092d82cd53b230da7d7?width=316)

AFLW has blocked him from playing.

Fair or not fair?

Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Thryleon on October 18, 2017, 12:39:04 pm
I back the AFL's stance here.

You can't implant two wings on my back and allow me to entertain the idea that I was born a bird in a human's body.

Sure that's an extreme example, but taking into account that people are born homosexual and it's not something you "correct" why would you try and "correct" gender considering you were absolutely born that way??

It speaks more of identity crisis than anything else to me. I would think that we might have thought of a better way to assist people is to accept the status quo, not try and change it, wouldn't it?

Hermaphrodites would be the only exception to this rule IMHO.


Anyway, thats my two bob there. 
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on October 18, 2017, 01:15:33 pm
(http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/54c13ac5a0399092d82cd53b230da7d7?width=316)

AFLW has blocked him from playing.

Fair or not fair?

Is that a soccer ball Hanna is holding, I feel so inadequate!

She's clearly pre-OP.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: DJC on October 18, 2017, 01:23:12 pm
Perhaps a more recent photograph would provide a better perspective:

(https://s5.postimg.org/ld6iktumv/Hannah_Mouncey.jpg)

I suspect that Hannah has been given an undertaking that she will be registered when her transition is complete.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: madbluboy on October 18, 2017, 01:30:41 pm
My take is that men play in the AFL and women play in the AFLW.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on October 18, 2017, 01:38:48 pm
As I mentioned earlier, too much asymmetry in all this.

Pretty much every young male sportsmen transitioning to female could get a run in the AFLW, almost no female sportswomen transitioning to male will get a run in even a suburban football team!

The physical differences cannot be ignored, ribs, abdominals, hips, pelvis, knees, shoulders, bone density, it's not Even Steven!
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: flyboy77 on October 18, 2017, 01:43:09 pm
It's a hand ball (European style).

She played for the Australian handball team.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Professer E on October 18, 2017, 02:20:35 pm
My daughter plays football and neither her nor I want her competing against a person who has the height, weight and muscle density of a man.  You can have all the "gender reassignment" PC clap trap till the cows come home - this individual has the physical characteristics of a male and IMO the correct decision was made.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: tonyo on October 18, 2017, 03:28:19 pm
I agree with the AFL call on this - some of the girls playing in AFLW are tiny and if we start putting them against bodies that have gone through a male puberty, the imbalance will be very unfair.

Looks like the AFL have declared this to be an 'incorrect disposal of the ball(s)'......
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on October 18, 2017, 03:33:29 pm
Hannah's coach came out and stated opponents were not scared of her.

On talk-back radio last night another person claiming to be an Ainslie player stated watching Hanna play was like watching Collingwood's Rene Kink play against juniors!

All I know is she allegedly kicked 17 goals in three games, which is a lot in Women's football as many teams wouldn't score 17 goals in three games!

So I have no concerns over the AFLW taking a conservative approach.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 18, 2017, 04:35:55 pm
My daughter plays football and neither her nor I want her competing against a person who has the height, weight and muscle density of a man.  You can have all the "gender reassignment" PC clap trap till the cows come home - this individual has the physical characteristics of a male and IMO the correct decision was made.

x2
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: cookie2 on October 18, 2017, 05:10:55 pm
This case raises the question as to how people are to be defined as eligible to play in the womens league or will it just be another case of "at the AFL's discretion"?
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on October 18, 2017, 08:30:28 pm
Look at our new AFLW ruck, Bridie Kennedy at 175cm and about 65kg by the look.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Jack Burton on October 18, 2017, 08:39:24 pm
She's a midfielder from what I read
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: mateinone on October 18, 2017, 09:51:53 pm
I have absolutely no doubt the correct decision has been made.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on April 09, 2018, 04:40:03 pm
OK, this transgender sh1te is going too far.

I was scoffed at on this forum when I suggested somewhere at some stage a B Grade male professional athlete would change gender to make a living out of their chosen career in a female comp.

Well I was wrong, it won't be just B Graders. Laurel Hubbard, a former NZ Mens weightlifting champion is cleaning up while competing as a woman in the Comm Games.

I'm calling it Bullsh1t!

Bad luck for Hannah Mouncey, I feel sorry for her, but she should not be allowed to make or supplement her living out of being a Professional Female Athlete!

Bring in the chromosome tests, they are now dirt cheap and unequivocal and can form part of an athletes Bio-Passport, I don't give a stuff about political correctness.

There was a Comm Games photo of the competitors in one of the weekly rags, it fair dinkum looked like Andre the Giant surrounded by a Melbourne Cup field of Jockeys!

Some of those poor girls have trained their whole sporting life for a crack at being a very distant second to a bloke!

It's Bullh!t, I call it Bullsh1t and it's gone too far! :o
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: cookie2 on April 09, 2018, 04:49:02 pm
OK, this transgender sh1te is going too far.

I was scoffed at on this forum when I suggested somewhere at some stage a B Grade male professional athlete would change gender to make a living out of their chosen career.

Well I was wrong, it won't be just B Graders. Laurel Hubbard, a former NZ Mens weightlifting champion is cleaning up while competing as a woman in the Comm Games.

I'm calling it Bullsh1t!

Bad luck for Hannah Mouncey, I feel sorry for her, but she should not be allowed to make or supplement her living out of being a Professional Female Athlete!

Bring in the chromosome tests, they are now dirt cheap and unequivocal and can form part of an athletes Bio-Passport

This has been going on for many years. Recall the Press sisters, Tamara and Irena? They were very successful Soviet  athletes in the 1960s with big question marks over their gender even at that time - before anyone had ever heard of 'transgender".
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: madbluboy on April 09, 2018, 04:54:28 pm
Laurel/Gavin snapped his arm.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on April 09, 2018, 04:59:08 pm
Laurel/Gavin snapped his arm.

I know, but it is still bullsh1t MBB, was that injury a snapped conscience!

Win or lose, Laurel/Laurie/Gavin whatever was a former male national champion!

I actually feel sorry for Laurel, because if that failed record attempt was a way out of the uncomfortable situation she found herself in then it sucks, because Laurel shouldn't have been put in that situation in the first place!
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Lods on April 09, 2018, 05:02:37 pm
This has been going on for many years. Recall the Press sisters, Tamara and Irena? They were very successful Soviet  athletes in the 1960s with big question marks over their gender even at that time - before anyone had ever heard of 'transgender".

Stella Walsh the 1932 Olympic 100 metre champion
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on April 09, 2018, 05:04:59 pm
I've got an idea for Levi!

Can we send a hat around to fund some silicone?
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: DJC on April 10, 2018, 12:51:51 am
I've got an idea for Levi!

Can we send a hat around to fund some silicone?

WTF are you on LP?  Perhaps you'd like to suggest that to Levi in person.  Of course, he is a very well balanced young man and would probably excuse your comments as the ravings of a troubled soul.

Two of my work colleagues underwent gender re-assignment and, based on their experiences, it's not something you would undergo just to have a more successful sporting career.

The fact of the matter is that gender is not binary but, like most things, is a gradation from one extreme to the other.  Those folk who fall in the middle, and who are wrongly categorised by doctors, family and/or physical appearance have every right to take whatever steps are necessary to correct nature's errors.

It's interesting that Caster Semenya is embraced by South Africans who can see beyond the physical manifestations of hyperandrogenism.  As Semenya explains, they call their approach "humanity".  
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: sandsmere on April 10, 2018, 06:31:56 am
I have absolutely no doubt the correct decision has been made.

me too !
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on April 10, 2018, 08:12:33 am
It's bullsh1t, plain and simple.

We are not talking about the average Joe who has some surgery and tries something new. These people are / were professional high level male athletes, who have switched and gone on to compete at the top of the female professional athletic spectrum against women who in some cases have dedicated and trained their whole life with a goal to compete at the highest level.

There are two sides to this argument, it's not all about Mouncey and Hubbard, don't the other sportswomen competitors deserve a voice and fair go? Shouldn't we be respecting their wishes and efforts that in some cases have lasted decades?

If just one career sporstwomen is displaced by Hubbard or Mouncey is it fair, will you tell that girl or woman her career is over, that she has been cut by a bigger and better model that happens to be a bloke no matter what suit they wear?

Heart, lungs, bones, muscles, size and strength are not re-assigned. Tell EB1 his girls have to go out on the AFLW or WNBA field and have a head clash with the skull of Hubbard or Mouncey? No matter what medicine does to make the chemistry appear female, they are still male!

If DJC digs them up in a thousand years and tests the DNA he'll report them as male remains!

The old moderate line, "Ask the girls, if they don't complain then everybody is happy" is also bullsh1t!

It's hypocrisy that the politically correct want the traditional athletes to come out in publicly complain before anything is done about it, knowing full well they'll be stoned by the radicals for speaking out! It's the old Judas argument, they want them to complain then be thrown on the fire for the privilege!

I suppose when young sportswomen start necking themselves because their life long dreams have been destroyed by the impossibility of competing with some of these transgender super-athletes the moderates will say she wasn't well!

Where is the balance in this debate, it seems to be all pro-transgender and bugger the sportswomen!
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: malo on April 10, 2018, 08:49:48 am
Yeah, it's weak administrators who are too scared to act. 

If a female athlete, who has been female her entire life decides to pack some steroids leading up to a Comm, World champs, or Olympic games in a desperate attempt to grab that elusive Gold medal, she would be banned forthwith.....for a long time.

But apparently it's OK for a male athlete (who's not been quite good enough at this level of competition) who's been a bloke for 35 years to make a decision to allow them to compete in the womens competition in an attempt to grab a Gold medal.....then that's OK.

It's rubbish.  Extremely lucky that their injury maintained the integrity of the competition in this case.......but for how long ?  Someday someone else, not quite good enough for Mens comp, but with that Gold Medal obsession, will make a similar decision with the express intent of winning an Olympic Gold.....and do so.... then the you know what will hit the fan.

Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Thryleon on April 10, 2018, 09:29:22 am
WTF are you on LP?  Perhaps you'd like to suggest that to Levi in person.  Of course, he is a very well balanced young man and would probably excuse your comments as the ravings of a troubled soul.

Two of my work colleagues underwent gender re-assignment and, based on their experiences, it's not something you would undergo just to have a more successful sporting career.

The fact of the matter is that gender is not binary but, like most things, is a gradation from one extreme to the other.  Those folk who fall in the middle, and who are wrongly categorised by doctors, family and/or physical appearance have every right to take whatever steps are necessary to correct nature's errors.

It's interesting that Caster Semenya is embraced by South Africans who can see beyond the physical manifestations of hyperandrogenism.  As Semenya explains, they call their approach "humanity".

DJC I think things are getting a bit out of hand regarding trans.

People cannot change their gender.

If they were born hermaphrodite or in semenya's case a little bit of both, then these people aren't actually trans and it's an insult to them to call them so.

The non binary terminology is not healthy.  Man and woman are not at ends of a spectrum.  We are too similar for that to be anything but rhetoric.   Males experience the same set of emotions that females do, and vice versa.   The only point of difference is our biology.  Granted in a minute number, statistically represented as outliers, biology has created a bit of a grey area but most of these trans people wear a gender like we wear clothing and it's true that everyone feels genuinely uncomfortable about elements of their physiology at one point or another which will result in a few false trans people.

I can appreciate that people might not agree with what I have to say, but I think people need to understand that they wear a persona and cannot change the unchangeable surgery or not. 
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on April 10, 2018, 10:42:02 am
It's rubbish.  Extremely lucky that their injury maintained the integrity of the competition in this case.......but for how long ?  Someday someone else, not quite good enough for Mens comp, but with that Gold Medal obsession, will make a similar decision with the express intent of winning an Olympic Gold.....and do so.... then the you know what will hit the fan.

I find it somewhat ironic that people believe doing a transition would be over the top and out of the question for anyone, like humans have some sort of common natural limit to how far they will go!

I'm not claiming this will become widespread, but even one taking a loophole to an extreme is too much in my opinion. It's a situation that can destroy a legitimate athletes whole career!

This isn't a debate about the equality of a bunch of kids playing in a kindergarten sandpit, but that seems analogous to the argument many trans-gender proponents take! The argument that we are all the same, and we should play together nicely! That vision of physical gender equality is Hollywood rubbish, there are no female detectives bashing groups of Hell's Angel in real life for a very good reason!

So I'm assuming that DJC's argument is based on the assumption that if the AFLW girls start earning million dollar wages there will never be a Casboult prepared to make the switch! History as well as common sense laughs at the suggestion that won't happen!
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Dominator_7 on April 11, 2018, 02:19:08 pm
Good luck to her, but imagine what would happen to someone like little Georgia Gee if she was standing under a hospital handball and Mouncey was charging through. Lawsuit waiting to happen.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: madbluboy on May 02, 2018, 12:32:58 pm
Hannay Mouncey almost gave up entire footy dream after star’s backlash

Quote
HANNAH Mouncey has hit out at footy legend Chris Judd for his outspoken criticism of her admission to the AFLW.

The transgender footballer was sensationally blocked from registering for the 2017 AFLW Draft following an AFL backflip.

Judd was vocal supporter of the decision, following concern from officials that Mouncey would have had a physical advantage that would have been unfair on the other female competitors.

“It’s an issue that’s got to be tackled with sensitivity because of the personal journey the transgender community goes through which is something we’ll forever find hard to understand,” Judd said on Channel 9’s Footy Classified two weeks ago.

“That doesn’t mean that it should change the fairness of women’s sport or potentially the safety if you’re playing a contact sport.

“Purely, the level of testosterone that transgender women grow up with for 20-plus years puts them at a distinct advantage to put down muscle bulk, create power that other females athletes don’t have and I think the AFL were right in not allowing Hannah to play in the AFLW.”

Mouncey has held back from responding to Judd, but on Monday revealed the toll his comments took on her.

It came as the 28-year-old confirmed she will play in the VFLW with the Darebin Falcons this season and will again consider nominating for the AFLW draft in 2018.

However, the outspoken comments surrounding her VFLW season almost convinced her to give up the sport. 

“The fact my AFLW draft issue was brought up again on Footy Classified, and the comments Chris Judd made with absolutely no understanding whatsoever of the situation, really did have more of an impact on me than it otherwise might have before,” Mouncey wrote in a column for Players Voice.

“In isolation it probably wouldn’t have mattered. But after everything that had gone on regarding the AFLW draft — and had subsequently died down — having people talking about it again was enough to tip me from wanting to play, to not.

“You take it with a grain of salt but, after a while, it does wear you down. When you hear so many people talking absolute rubbish about a situation they know nothing about, you eventually get pretty bloody sick of it.

“Some people are not willing to listen to the facts. You’re being attacked just for the sake of it.”

Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on May 02, 2018, 12:49:01 pm
Hannay Mouncey almost gave up entire footy dream after star’s backlash

I thought Judd dealt with the situation as reasonably and fairly as he could, Judd spoke the truth isn't the truth allowed anymore?

What are "The Facts" Mouncey refers to, that she wasn't a professional male athlete prior to re-assignment!

Like I posted once before, this isn't a case of kids playing fair in the kindergarten sand pit, Mouncey is obviously only considering her perspective. But if a lifelong born female athlete, or even one who transitioned pre-adolesence, is de-listed, overlooked, replaced or injured in a collision by a mature age re-assigned athlete like Mouncey how is that in anyway fair?

How about we stand the human rights lawyers in a line and launch a range of AFLW players including Mouncey at them from a trebuchet in the best Monty Pyhton style. Let's see who they prefer catching or hitting them! We can have the lawyers draw straws to see which player they get, and monitor the facial expressions of those who do or don't get Mouncey!

I'm sure Julian Burnside will voluntarily chose Mouncey to prove his point, that he's possibly a highly regarded moron. Cynics of lawyers would say he makes the choice knowing he cannot catch, I myself would take a potential collision with Georgia Gee whether I can catch or cannot!

I'm obviously not as sensitive about this situation as Judd! ;D

Mouncey playing VFLW or AFLW is just a politically correct can of worms, and completely unfair to the existing female athletes regardless of Mouncey's ability!
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on May 05, 2018, 07:01:02 pm
I'm sorry, I know she didn't really do much, and that Darebin were flogged, but this is not right!

(https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.204%2C$multiply_0.7365439093484419%2C$ratio_1.776846%2C$width_1059%2C$x_0%2C$y_30/t_crop_custom/t_sharpen%2Cq_auto%2Cf_auto/b6b2c534ec275da860454b37dea587ac6c1b3e15)Mouncey runs on!

(https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_390%2C$height_585/t_crop_auto/t_sharpen%2Cq_auto%2Cf_auto/7057c376e5824b0b3f62145001eb9a942110c8d1)
Against NT Thunder KPD/CHB Tayla Thorn.

I want players that size in our AFL team!
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 05, 2018, 07:37:00 pm
I'm sorry, I know she didn't really do much, and that Darebin were flogged, but this is not right!

(https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.204%2C$multiply_0.7365439093484419%2C$ratio_1.776846%2C$width_1059%2C$x_0%2C$y_30/t_crop_custom/t_sharpen%2Cq_auto%2Cf_auto/b6b2c534ec275da860454b37dea587ac6c1b3e15)Mouncey runs on!

(https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_390%2C$height_585/t_crop_auto/t_sharpen%2Cq_auto%2Cf_auto/7057c376e5824b0b3f62145001eb9a942110c8d1)
Against NT Thunder KPD/CHB Tayla Thorn.

I want players that size in our AFL team!
Thats not right.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on September 10, 2018, 11:59:14 am
I don't understand this Mouncey situation.

Regardless of whether you are for or against, Mouncey and her team of lawyers or political influencers basically pursued rule changes so that Hannah could play and now the plug has been pulled on an AFLW career because of ill feelings from people on the administrative side!

Just a few weeks ago I heard some rumors from attendees at AFLW games of Mouncey being dragged by Darebin to limit game time and influence. The allegation was that Hannah was being managed to ensure that any perceived dominance during games did not cause too much of a stir. I believe managers/coaches Darebin denied this late in the season and stated Hannah being benched was just team or form related.

Well what does all this mean, I suspect if you are being managed through games because you are too dominant that makes a mockery of the competition. On the flip side, if you are regularly being benched at VFLW level due to structural or form issues you probably are not going to make the draft anyway!

Yet today the media reports that it is all about a bias, am I being too harsh by being cynical?

Just a day or so after Serena Williams tried to bully a male match official into forgiving her and her coach for cheating, Serena has continued to deny this despite the coach admitted in a live to air interview that he was coaching from the sidelines, and the subsequent fines for being coached from the sidelines, yet apparently the official is just being sexist or racist? Adam Goodes anyone? Serena has been dominant, must she now make an excuse?

I suppose this is the fate of all sports, as potential earnings increase integrity exits!
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: madbluboy on September 10, 2018, 01:01:25 pm
Hannah didn't like having to keep her testosterone down.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on September 10, 2018, 01:40:12 pm
Hannah didn't like having to keep her testosterone down.

I don't know about that, but the whole episode reminds me of a "Lou and Andy" sketch from the TV Series Little Britain.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: jeza on September 10, 2018, 02:55:35 pm
I don't understand this Mouncey situation.

Regardless of whether you are for or against, Mouncey and her team of lawyers or political influencers basically pursued rule changes so that Hannah could play and now the plug has been pulled on an AFLW career because of ill feelings from people on the administrative side!

Just a few weeks ago I heard some rumors from attendees at AFLW games of Mouncey being dragged by Darebin to limit game time and influence. The allegation was that Hannah was being managed to ensure that any perceived dominance during games did not cause too much of a stir. I believe managers/coaches Darebin denied this late in the season and stated Hannah being benched was just team or form related.

Well what does all this mean, I suspect if you are being managed through games because you are too dominant that makes a mockery of the competition. On the flip side, if you are regularly being benched at VFLW level due to structural or form issues you probably are not going to make the draft anyway!

Yet today the media reports that it is all about a bias, am I being too harsh by being cynical?

Just a day or so after Serena Williams tried to bully a male match official into forgiving her and her coach for cheating, Serena has continued to deny this despite the coach admitted in a live to air interview that he was coaching from the sidelines, and the subsequent fines for being coached form the sidelines, yet apparently the official is just being sexist or racist? Adam Goodes anyone? Serena has been dominant, must she now make an excuse?

I suppose this is the fate of all sports, as potential earning increase integrity exits!

I agree with all of that.

I am as big a critic of the AFL as anyone but they were in an unwinnable position on this one.

Hannah bowing out on her own would be a big relief and probably the most sensible outcome although I understand it must be a bitter pill to swallow.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on October 22, 2018, 01:29:25 pm
I realise this is a dead issue, but the impact of this modern trend grows weekly.

Rita Panahi has some interesting thoughts on the issue;

 - Female athletes forced to accept unfair advantage (https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/rita-panahi/female-athletes-are-right-to-be-concerned-about-trans-competitors-writes-rita-panahi/news-story/174f730ff2d436072eb3eb70eab716d8)

Many at the sports administrative level would have you believe it's all hunky dory behind the scenes, but that is far from the truth!

It's weak-minded administrations up against opportunism!
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: chalkybill on October 22, 2018, 05:00:49 pm
I realise this is a dead issue, but the impact of this modern trend grows weekly.

Rita Panahi has some interesting thoughts on the issue;

 - Female athletes forced to accept unfair advantage (https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/rita-panahi/female-athletes-are-right-to-be-concerned-about-trans-competitors-writes-rita-panahi/news-story/174f730ff2d436072eb3eb70eab716d8)

Many at the sports administrative level would have you believe it's all hunky dory behind the scenes, but that is far from the truth!

It's weak-minded administrations up against opportunism!

Has anyone heard of a woman transitioning to a man dominating a traditional male sport? 
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Thryleon on October 22, 2018, 05:13:54 pm
I am 179 cm or about 5 foot 10-11.

I saw Daisy Pearce here at the hospital last week.  She would have been lucky to be standing at my armpit.  Daisy is probably typical of most AFL w sized players, and I think in a one on one contest, I would have been carrying about 30 cm, and probably another 30 kegs on top.

Anyone who thinks Hannah doesn't have a significant advantage is kidding themselves.

She finished up runner up in the VFLW goal kickers award, and was only beaten by Vescio on the last match day of the season, and part of me thinks that her opponents let her kick a ridiculous number of goals to secure the win on the final round of the season.

Some will argue not, but thats not the point.  Think about it.





Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: cookie2 on October 22, 2018, 05:27:05 pm
It seems very politically incorrect today to differentiate too much between the genders and the idea that females are somehow "weaker" or not as capable of anything as males goes down like an iron kite. It's going to be interesting how this eventually gets sorted out, as isn't the logical conclusion that males identifying as females will eventually take over female sport? Confusin' aint it?
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: flyboy77 on October 22, 2018, 05:34:13 pm
I am 179 cm or about 5 foot 10-11.

I saw Daisy Pearce here at the hospital last week.  She would have been lucky to be standing at my armpit.  Daisy is probably typical of most AFL w sized players, and I think in a one on one contest, I would have been carrying about 30 cm, and probably another 30 kegs on top.

Anyone who thinks Hannah doesn't have a significant advantage is kidding themselves.

She finished up runner up in the VFLW goal kickers award, and was only beaten by Vescio on the last match day of the season, and part of me thinks that her opponents let her kick a ridiculous number of goals to secure the win on the final round of the season.

Some will argue not, but thats not the point.  Think about it.

Yep.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: PaulP on October 22, 2018, 05:45:54 pm
I am 179 cm or about 5 foot 10-11.

I saw Daisy Pearce here at the hospital last week.  She would have been lucky to be standing at my armpit.  Daisy is probably typical of most AFL w sized players, and I think in a one on one contest, I would have been carrying about 30 cm, and probably another 30 kegs on top.

Anyone who thinks Hannah doesn't have a significant advantage is kidding themselves.

She finished up runner up in the VFLW goal kickers award, and was only beaten by Vescio on the last match day of the season, and part of me thinks that her opponents let her kick a ridiculous number of goals to secure the win on the final round of the season.

Some will argue not, but thats not the point.  Think about it.

But is her size the critical issue, or the fact that she used to be a male ? If it's the former, what about Shane Mumford v Marc Murphy ? You can't discriminate in the men's game because someone is too big, or too strong. The fact that Daisy Pearce may be a typical size female AFL footballer and Murphy an atypically small male player is not the issue IMO.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: cookie2 on October 22, 2018, 06:03:03 pm
But is her size the critical issue, or the fact that she used to be a male ? If it's the former, what about Shane Mumford v Marc Murphy ? You can't discriminate in the men's game because someone is too big, or too strong. The fact that Daisy Pearce may be a typical size female AFL footballer and Murphy an atypically small male player is not the issue IMO.

So the biggest and strongest people who identify as female will be the more successful in the AFLW?
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Lods on October 22, 2018, 06:11:01 pm
But is her size the critical issue, or the fact that she used to be a male ?

It has to be the fact that Hannah used to be a male

(http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/71/96271-004-9438A3F7.jpg)
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: PaulP on October 22, 2018, 06:15:23 pm
So the biggest and strongest people who identify as female will be the more successful in the AFLW?

Maybe. I guess the point I was trying to make is that you can't object to her because she's too big. I would assume that her unfair advantage arises from some remnant, leftover vestiges of masculinity, e.g muscle mass, size etc., that hormone therapy, gender reassignment etc. can't completely remove, and this is the real issue.

What about 2 females, one a bodybuilder, the other a basket baller - both born female, one significantly taller, the other significantly stronger than most female players - should they be refused permission to play AFL/VFLW ?
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: PaulP on October 22, 2018, 06:16:11 pm
It has to be the fact that Hannah used to be a male

(http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/71/96271-004-9438A3F7.jpg)

Yes, my thoughts as well - see my post above.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: kruddler on October 22, 2018, 06:33:14 pm
Maybe. I guess the point I was trying to make is that you can't object to her because she's too big. I would assume that her unfair advantage arises from some remnant, leftover vestiges of masculinity, e.g muscle mass, size etc., that hormone therapy, gender reassignment etc. can't completely remove, and this is the real issue.

What about 2 females, one a bodybuilder, the other a basket baller - both born female, one significantly taller, the other significantly stronger than most female players - should they be refused permission to play AFL/VFLW ?

I think its been mentioned earlier in this thread. But if you go through puberty as a male without taking any hormone blockers, you get all the advantages of that. Eg excess testosterone/growth as a result. THEN you transition.

So you 100% get an advantage if you are a 'later' transition by comparison to if you transition before puberty.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Lods on October 22, 2018, 06:34:32 pm
I guess the key is the muscular development.
Compare the basketballer to Hannah and you can see the difference in definition.
A female body wont achieve that naturally.
Once again compare female bodybuilders in "Natural" competitions with those in "Free for all, not tested strictly" and you can see it's not the same.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: PaulP on October 22, 2018, 06:36:42 pm
I think its been mentioned earlier in this thread. But if you go through puberty as a male without taking any hormone blockers, you get all the advantages of that. Eg excess testosterone/growth as a result. THEN you transition.

So you 100% get an advantage if you are a 'later' transition by comparison to if you transition before puberty.

I see. Thanks for that. Then IMO, she should definitely not be allowed to play.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: PaulP on October 22, 2018, 06:51:55 pm
I guess the key is the muscular development.
Compare the basketballer to Hannah and you can see the difference in definition.
A female body wont achieve that naturally.
Once again compare female bodybuilders in "Natural" competitions with those in "Free for all, not tested strictly" and you can see it's not the same.

Fair points lods.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: cookie2 on October 22, 2018, 07:18:18 pm
Maybe. I guess the point I was trying to make is that you can't object to her because she's too big. I would assume that her unfair advantage arises from some remnant, leftover vestiges of masculinity, e.g muscle mass, size etc., that hormone therapy, gender reassignment etc. can't completely remove, and this is the real issue.

What about 2 females, one a bodybuilder, the other a basket baller - both born female, one significantly taller, the other significantly stronger than most female players - should they be refused permission to play AFL/VFLW ?

But who makes the call on  what the gender at birth was?
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Baggers on October 22, 2018, 07:19:07 pm
What a vexing issue. A real 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' thing.

You'd love to see Moucey given the chance to do what she loves, but she does have an unfair advantage, but if you point out that advantage... you're a pr1ck, if you advocate for fairness and inclusion her on-field opponents can suffer. There must be another solution but the people in each corner of the debate are equally vehement... but it seems to me it aint an 'either/or' situation. In fact, I give up!! :-[
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 22, 2018, 07:53:47 pm
Would you want your daughter getting pole axed by Heather......?.....no way would I allow mine to be out there playing vs a man sized and more importantly hardened body..
Yep Mason Cox is a way bigger unit than most and Shane Mumford likes cleaning up other players as does Steven May but the other footballers in the male AFL comp train for that physicality and harden their bodies to take it.....
The womens comp is in the embryo stage and doesnt need a wrecking ball running around injuring young ladies...when the comp has developed and turning out professional hardened bodies and every team has them then you can introduce athletes like Hannah into the game IMO....

Be like Mitchell Johnson switching gender and women cricketers facing 150k bouncers......common sense and safety has to prevail and the AFL have got this one right IMO.....
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on October 22, 2018, 08:05:27 pm
What about 2 females, one a bodybuilder, the other a basket baller - both born female, one significantly taller, the other significantly stronger than most female players - should they be refused permission to play AFL/VFLW ?

Do we make exceptions for the majority to satisfy the minority, is that always to be the case?

How would you offer someone's average daughter the right to compete freely against peers of equal physicality and gender, have an equal opportunity to a professional sports career and without increased risk?

Will you volunteer to make the call if someone's granddaughter has her head caved in by an accidental on field collision with someone possessing a three decade old fully developed almost 200cm x 100kg male skeletal system! Sure I realise it might not happen, but shouldn't it be like The Doctor, do no harm!

What a vexing issue. A real 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' thing.

You'd love to see Moucey given the chance to do what she loves, but she does have an unfair advantage, but if you point out that advantage... you're a pr1ck, if you advocate for fairness and inclusion her on-field opponents can suffer. There must be another solution but the people in each corner of the debate are equally vehement... but it seems to me it aint an 'either/or' situation. In fact, I give up!! :-[

Life's tough, decisions we make have an effect on our lives, but that doesn't mean we owe Hannah Mouncey anything as compensation for the decisions she made in free will that have delivered her a tougher path than some! Certainly our daughters and grandaughters should not have to pay the price for our desire to have a clear conscience!
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Thryleon on October 22, 2018, 11:26:59 pm
But is her size the critical issue, or the fact that she used to be a male ? If it's the former, what about Shane Mumford v Marc Murphy ? You can't discriminate in the men's game because someone is too big, or too strong. The fact that Daisy Pearce may be a typical size female AFL footballer and Murphy an atypically small male player is not the issue IMO.

The critical issue is I am an average male, and Hannah is an above average sized former male now wanting to play against females.

The muddying of this issue of Marc Murphy vs shame Mumford is ridiculous.

Murphy's small by afl sizes but not abnormally so.  There's plenty of shorter players as well as Murphy sized ones.  Likewise Mumford is large but not abnormally so and he is not a rarity either.

Hannah Mouncey is abnormally large for a female, and is going to have a strength advantage that mkst females, not even the abnormal ones, simply won't ever have over their counterparts.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: northernblue on October 23, 2018, 04:09:05 am
Maybe. I guess the point I was trying to make is that you can't object to her because she's too big. I would assume that her unfair advantage arises from some remnant, leftover vestiges of masculinity, e.g muscle mass, size etc., that hormone therapy, gender reassignment etc. can't completely remove, and this is the real issue.

What about 2 females, one a bodybuilder, the other a basket baller - both born female, one significantly taller, the other significantly stronger than most female players - should they be refused permission to play AFL/VFLW ?

I think the resident homophobes will say yes PaulP, because that’s really their issue, the rest is window dressing.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: capcom on October 23, 2018, 07:43:31 am
To me, it's black and white.  No way should she be permitted to play in the competition
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on October 23, 2018, 07:52:36 am
There are a lot of interesting contradictions in this debate.

For example, the arguments are aggressive that a transition athlete is equivalent or the same as their other athletes in their new gender. Yet those transitioned athletes still like to use and identify with the term Transgender, a label invented and championed to identify themselves as different!

I read an article a month or two back about an LGBTIA billionaire is funding Chinese researchers to "solve the problem" of transitioned individuals giving birth. In the meantime it's illegal for stem cells to be used to cure illness or re-grow a damaged organ!

It's hard to take the debates seriously when an issue like transitioned athletes playing sport is painted by both sides as a line in the sand! :o

Ironically, to me it would seem fairer to allow Mouncey to play AFL, than it would be to allow Mouncey to play AFLW! I realise it's a simple measure, but it's hard to argue against!
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: cookie2 on October 23, 2018, 08:46:11 am
Maybe the days of gender differentiated sport are numbered and competitions will be populated by teams/individuals which compete purely on the basis of skills and physical strength/endurance? Wonder how that would pan out especially in terms of encouraging across the board participation?
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Thryleon on October 23, 2018, 09:30:03 am
A little bit shorter than him, and maybe a few kilos lighter.

https://twitter.com/hannahmouncey/status/999815505027346433

A photo of Hannah and Jono Brown.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: DJC on October 23, 2018, 09:34:49 am
Maybe. I guess the point I was trying to make is that you can't object to her because she's too big. I would assume that her unfair advantage arises from some remnant, leftover vestiges of masculinity, e.g muscle mass, size etc., that hormone therapy, gender reassignment etc. can't completely remove, and this is the real issue.

What about 2 females, one a bodybuilder, the other a basket baller - both born female, one significantly taller, the other significantly stronger than most female players - should they be refused permission to play AFL/VFLW ?

I think that’s right Paul and that seems to be the line the AFL and some other sports are taking and, as we all know, size doesn’t matter  ;)

Interestingly, Caster Semenya, who has been nominated for the IAAF female athlete of the year, may not be allowed to compete because of her atypically high testosterone levels.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Baggers on October 23, 2018, 09:55:40 am
We're living in times where there is an admirable effort to increase awareness and accommodate a lot more than in past years and decades. This applies to many things in life. But there still needs to be healthy, conscious, intelligent boundaries.

Many folks are asking, and quite rightly so, 'how would you like Hannah competing against your daughter?' Well, you wouldn't like it. But if we ask that question we also must ask the question, 'what would I feel/think if Hannah was my daughter and she wanted to play footy?' Remember, this is not a whim, she is passionate about playing. I guess the first thing I would say to her is, 'please be prepared to experience first hand the worst and best of human nature, in varying proportions. You'll be hated, misunderstood, ridiculed and generally mocked/abused. As a father I don't want to see you hurt but I also want you to be happy and to support you in the things you love to do.' Then we'd talk.

Hannah's plight is significantly compounded by the fact that she was a big bloke. Had she been 165cm and 55kgs as a bloke, or even 178 and 70 there would likely not be the, understandable, outcry that there is. I guess a very crude comparison might be allowing Maxon Cox to play with elevated (above the rest) testosterone levels.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on October 23, 2018, 10:15:51 am
Hannah's plight is significantly compounded by the fact that she was a big bloke. Had she been 165cm and 55kgs as a bloke, or even 178 and 70 there would likely not be the, understandable, outcry that there is. I guess a very crude comparison might be allowing Maxon Cox to play with elevated (above the rest) testosterone levels.

Hannah is not average size for even a man, and that is important.

Ignoring Hannah's specific case, forum posters deride my concerns that if a female sport becomes wealthy enough there will be males willing to transition just for profit. But the naysayers ignore history, East Germany, Russia, and China have proven there are no limits to what people will do even at a state controlled level let alone leaving the decision up to a bunch of capitalists or crooks!

There is no case by case solution to this which is implementable at all levels of the sport. This is why I think Hannah should be permitted to play AFL, VFL or any other adult male level competition. In those competitions she requires no special monitoring of testosterone or other bio-markers, whatever those tests may be even if specifically cherry-picked for her case, she can  to enter the playing field in her natural state whatever that may be! That is implementable at all levels.

In any case I already know of transitioned individuals playing local football, but equality only exists when that occurs in one specific direction!
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Thryleon on October 23, 2018, 10:24:56 am
We're living in times where there is an admirable effort to increase awareness and accommodate a lot more than in past years and decades. This applies to many things in life. But there still needs to be healthy, conscious, intelligent boundaries.

Many folks are asking, and quite rightly so, 'how would you like Hannah competing against your daughter?' Well, you wouldn't like it. But if we ask that question we also must ask the question, 'what would I feel/think if Hannah was my daughter and she wanted to play footy?' Remember, this is not a whim, she is passionate about playing. I guess the first thing I would say to her is, 'please be prepared to experience first hand the worst and best of human nature, in varying proportions. You'll be hated, misunderstood, ridiculed and generally mocked/abused. As a father I don't want to see you hurt but I also want you to be happy and to support you in the things you love to do.' Then we'd talk.

Hannah's plight is significantly compounded by the fact that she was a big bloke. Had she been 165cm and 55kgs as a bloke, or even 178 and 70 there would likely not be the, understandable, outcry that there is. I guess a very crude comparison might be allowing Maxon Cox to play with elevated (above the rest) testosterone levels.

I would have thought that being comfortable in your own body is part of your identity, and not through hormone therapies or plastic surgery.  We have been made the way we are.  We feel what are human emotions, not male or female, and no matter how much we fight against our body's biology, how we identify, is largely subjective.

They were born in the skin they were born in for a purpose.  That purpose is to accept oneself and their imperfections and not simply shed one social construct for another.

FWIW, here is the definition of a male, and here is the definition of a female according to the oxford dictionary:

Male: adjective

    1. Of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.
    ‘male children’

    1.1 Relating to or characteristic of men or male animals.
    ‘a deep male voice’

1.2 (of a plant or flower) bearing stamens but lacking functional pistils.
1.3 (of a fitting or part of machinery) manufactured to fit inside a corresponding female part.
‘the valve has standard half-inch threaded male ends’


Female:
adjective

    1. Of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.
    ‘a herd of female deer’

    1.1 Relating to or characteristic of women or female animals.
    ‘a female audience’
    ‘female names’

1.2 (of a plant or flower) having a pistil but no stamens.
1.3 (of parts of machinery, fittings, etc.) manufactured hollow so that a corresponding male part can be inserted.


For bonus points:

Transgender: adjective

    Denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex.


Identity:

noun

    1. The fact of being who or what a person or thing is.
    ‘he knows the identity of the bombers’
    mass noun ‘she believes she is the victim of mistaken identity’

    1.1 The characteristics determining who or what a person or thing is.
    ‘he wanted to develop a more distinctive Scottish Tory identity’

1.2 as modifier (of an object) serving to establish who the holder, owner, or wearer is by bearing their name and often other details such as a signature or photograph.
‘an identity card’

2. A close similarity or affinity.
‘an identity between the company's own interests and those of the local community’

3. Mathematics
A transformation that leaves an object unchanged.

    3.1 An element of a set which, if combined with another element by a specified binary operation, leaves that element unchanged.

4.Mathematics
The equality of two expressions for all values of the quantities expressed by letters, or an equation expressing this, e.g. (x + 1)² = x² + 2x + 1.



To answer your question about Hannah being my child (not my daughter), I would encourage Hannah not to travel down a road that argues with the unchangeable.  Some people's unchangeable varies.  Multiple Sclerosis, Motor Neuron Disorder, Cancer, down syndrome, asthbergers, asthma and the one recurring theme I see in the world, is that these people only find happiness when they stop fighting against their human nature and find a way to roll with the punches.  There is a liberation that comes from accepting that you cannot change the unchangeable but make the most of it and in the case of illness, fight against it until it kills you. 

This transgenderism is simply another social construct.

Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on October 23, 2018, 12:22:02 pm
This transgenderism is simply another social construct.

Can I add, it's a social construct made real by medical science!
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: kruddler on October 23, 2018, 05:51:45 pm
This transgenderism is simply another social construct.

Perhaps the movement has some 'questionable' people jumping on board, but i wouldn't go that far exactly.

How about people who are born with both bits? What side of the fence do we put them?

Its not as simple as you describe....but its not as complex as some make out either.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Baggers on October 23, 2018, 06:59:14 pm
I would have thought that being comfortable in your own body is part of your identity, and not through hormone therapies or plastic surgery.  We have been made the way we are.  We feel what are human emotions, not male or female, and no matter how much we fight against our body's biology, how we identify, is largely subjective.

They were born in the skin they were born in for a purpose.  That purpose is to accept oneself and their imperfections and not simply shed one social construct for another.

FWIW, here is the definition of a male, and here is the definition of a female according to the oxford dictionary:

Male: adjective

    1. Of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.
    ‘male children’

    1.1 Relating to or characteristic of men or male animals.
    ‘a deep male voice’

1.2 (of a plant or flower) bearing stamens but lacking functional pistils.
1.3 (of a fitting or part of machinery) manufactured to fit inside a corresponding female part.
‘the valve has standard half-inch threaded male ends’


Female:
adjective

    1. Of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.
    ‘a herd of female deer’

    1.1 Relating to or characteristic of women or female animals.
    ‘a female audience’
    ‘female names’

1.2 (of a plant or flower) having a pistil but no stamens.
1.3 (of parts of machinery, fittings, etc.) manufactured hollow so that a corresponding male part can be inserted.


For bonus points:

Transgender: adjective

    Denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex.


Identity:

noun

    1. The fact of being who or what a person or thing is.
    ‘he knows the identity of the bombers’
    mass noun ‘she believes she is the victim of mistaken identity’

    1.1 The characteristics determining who or what a person or thing is.
    ‘he wanted to develop a more distinctive Scottish Tory identity’

1.2 as modifier (of an object) serving to establish who the holder, owner, or wearer is by bearing their name and often other details such as a signature or photograph.
‘an identity card’

2. A close similarity or affinity.
‘an identity between the company's own interests and those of the local community’

3. Mathematics
A transformation that leaves an object unchanged.

    3.1 An element of a set which, if combined with another element by a specified binary operation, leaves that element unchanged.

4.Mathematics
The equality of two expressions for all values of the quantities expressed by letters, or an equation expressing this, e.g. (x + 1)² = x² + 2x + 1.



To answer your question about Hannah being my child (not my daughter), I would encourage Hannah not to travel down a road that argues with the unchangeable.  Some people's unchangeable varies.  Multiple Sclerosis, Motor Neuron Disorder, Cancer, down syndrome, asthbergers, asthma and the one recurring theme I see in the world, is that these people only find happiness when they stop fighting against their human nature and find a way to roll with the punches.  There is a liberation that comes from accepting that you cannot change the unchangeable but make the most of it and in the case of illness, fight against it until it kills you. 

This transgenderism is simply another social construct.

To a degree, yes. But there are many folks who choose to fight and sometimes it is these folks who are catalysts for social change or force science to research/experiment further. We should respect the choice of the individual.

For my own part, yes, I accept I have PTSD and understand that it can't be magically waved away, but I am always on the alert for other ways to deal with it... so, yes, I 'roll with the punches' but don't surrender. Again, it's not an either/or. You can accept AND fight.

(not sure I would be putting transgenderism in with MS, MND, aspbergers (autism), cancer and the like, it aint a disease... not sure autism is either, but that's another discussion entirely).

Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Thryleon on October 23, 2018, 09:34:12 pm
Perhaps the movement has some 'questionable' people jumping on board, but i wouldn't go that far exactly.

How about people who are born with both bits? What side of the fence do we put them?

Its not as simple as you describe....but its not as complex as some make out either.

These people are hermaphrodite.  They don't fit into the transgender construct.
To a degree, yes. But there are many folks who choose to fight and sometimes it is these folks who are catalysts for social change or force science to research/experiment further. We should respect the choice of the individual.

For my own part, yes, I accept I have PTSD and understand that it can't be magically waved away, but I am always on the alert for other ways to deal with it... so, yes, I 'roll with the punches' but don't surrender. Again, it's not an either/or. You can accept AND fight.

(not sure I would be putting transgenderism in with MS, MND, aspbergers (autism), cancer and the like, it aint a disease... not sure autism is either, but that's another discussion entirely).



I'm not putting transgender into that category.

I'm putting diseases and disorders, in the realm of the unchangeable.  You can fight it all you like but you can't change what's a part of you.

Sex or gender is unchangeable.  Hannah can get surgery but she will always be a male.  This isn't healthy.  Shouldn't be encouraged and the statistics are damning regarding the prospects of trans people once they undergo reassignment surgery.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: DJC on October 23, 2018, 10:21:59 pm
These people are hermaphrodite.  They don't fit into the transgender construct.
I'm not putting transgender into that category.

I'm putting diseases and disorders, in the realm of the unchangeable.  You can fight it all you like but you can't change what's a part of you.

Sex or gender is unchangeable.  Hannah can get surgery but she will always be a male.  This isn't healthy.  Shouldn't be encouraged and the statistics are damning regarding the prospects of trans people once they undergo reassignment surgery.

Sorry Thry but that's exactly what transgender is.

I don't believe that Hannah has had surgery but that's not the point.  She is female in all respects apart from her genitalia and testosterone levels and it's not healthy to force folk like Hannah to repress their sense of personal identity and gender because it may not meet the binary gender models of the Abrahamic religions.

I wonder how this issue would play out if Native American culture had prevailed and up to five genders were universally recognised  :-\
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: madbluboy on October 24, 2018, 07:26:23 am
Chris Judd sums it up best.

Quote
HANNAH Mouncey has hit out at footy legend Chris Judd for his outspoken criticism of her admission to the AFLW.

The transgender footballer was sensationally blocked from registering for the 2017 AFLW Draft following an AFL backflip.

Judd was vocal supporter of the decision, following concern from officials that Mouncey would have had a physical advantage that would have been unfair on the other female competitors.

“It’s an issue that’s got to be tackled with sensitivity because of the personal journey the transgender community goes through which is something we’ll forever find hard to understand,” Judd said on Channel 9’s Footy Classified two weeks ago.

“That doesn’t mean that it should change the fairness of women’s sport or potentially the safety if you’re playing a contact sport.

“Purely, the level of testosterone that transgender women grow up with for 20-plus years puts them at a distinct advantage to put down muscle bulk, create power that other females athletes don’t have and I think the AFL were right in not allowing Hannah to play in the AFLW.”

Mouncey has held back from responding to Judd, but on Monday revealed the toll his comments took on her.

It came as the 28-year-old confirmed she will play in the VFLW with the Darebin Falcons this season and will again consider nominating for the AFLW draft in 2018.

However, the outspoken comments surrounding her VFLW season almost convinced her to give up the sport. 

“The fact my AFLW draft issue was brought up again on Footy Classified, and the comments Chris Judd made with absolutely no understanding whatsoever of the situation, really did have more of an impact on me than it otherwise might have before,” Mouncey wrote in a column for Players Voice.

“In isolation it probably wouldn’t have mattered. But after everything that had gone on regarding the AFLW draft — and had subsequently died down — having people talking about it again was enough to tip me from wanting to play, to not.

“You take it with a grain of salt but, after a while, it does wear you down. When you hear so many people talking absolute rubbish about a situation they know nothing about, you eventually get pretty bloody sick of it.

“Some people are not willing to listen to the facts. You’re being attacked just for the sake of it.”

 
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on October 24, 2018, 07:42:03 am
Chris Judd sums it up best.

It's a no win situation, because the facts are uncomfortable for both sides of the debate.

I think it's bad luck for Hannah, but the kids who transition pre-adult in their early teens, and not after years of training as a potential male olympic athlete, aren't going to have the same problems.

I'm not going to get into the moral, legal or religious debate about allowing teens to transition before they are even mature. But I can see the case were they would be OK to play AFLW in difference to Hannah Mouncey.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Professer E on October 24, 2018, 07:53:15 am
Yep,  common sense says that if you "transition" after packing on size and mass you clearly have a massive physical advantage that is beyond the scope of the game.

Hard luck on this Mouncey individual but I can understand the administration's stance.

Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Thryleon on October 24, 2018, 08:36:48 am
Sorry Thry but that's exactly what transgender is.


The Oxford dictionary definition of hermaphrodite:

hermaphrodite
/həːˈmafrədʌɪt/
noun
noun: hermaphrodite; plural noun: hermaphrodites
1.
a person or animal having both male and female sex organs or other sexual characteristics, either abnormally or (in the case of some organisms) as the natural condition.
synonyms:   androgyne; More
bisexual, gynandromorph
BOTANY
a plant having stamens and pistils in the same flower.
ARCHAIC
a person or thing combining opposite qualities or characteristics.
adjective
adjective: hermaphrodite
1.
of or denoting a person, animal, or plant having both male and female sex organs or other sexual characteristics.

Quote

I don't believe that Hannah has had surgery but that's not the point.  She is female in all respects apart from her genitalia and testosterone levels and it's not healthy to force folk like Hannah to repress their sense of personal identity and gender because it may not meet the binary gender models of the Abrahamic religions.

I wonder how this issue would play out if Native American culture had prevailed and up to five genders were universally recognised  :-\

This isn't about Abrahams religions and thats a realm where these discussions take on a life of their own.

Irrespective of that side note, I'm yet to see how rebutting centuries of knowledge with pseudo science is taking us.

FWIW I am questioning the studies resulting in transgender.  I am interested in intellectual debate regarding this phenomenon and not bigotry.  I believe that this is psychiatry and psychology failing people and society.  We are not mending broken thought processes about identity but encouraging what I would call unhealthy preoccupation with labels to take over.

We don't need more genders.  We need to break gender stereotypes and social norms to accept the grey areas as part of a spectrum of male and female.  Hermaphrodite are the only ones that revolve in male and female categories anyone else is wearing a persona.  That persona might be an identity crisis rather than anything else and it might be an unhealthy way to treat people of this nature.  Gender dysphoria is the key term here and one of the pillars it's built on usually shows that trans people are often attracted to their own sex (I.e. gay if not trans).  Hannah is a confessed lesbian meaning Hannah is attracted to women.

The mental health sphere is evolving constantly and IMHO not enough is being done to support these people and it's in the realm of entertaining the impossible IMHO.  that cannot be healthy.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 24, 2018, 04:52:34 pm
Yep,  common sense says that if you "transition" after packing on size and mass you clearly have a massive physical advantage that is beyond the scope of the game.

Hard luck on this Mouncey individual but I can understand the administration's stance.

The physical advantage is too great and its almost a health and safety issue......you get some slightly built girl badly hurt by Heather M and it will be straight into the courts.
Are insurers going to payout?, have the AFL created a unsafe workplace?...etc etc....
Like I said before if Mitchell Johnson was in Heather M's position would you want him bowling at 150k to women ?.......common sense has to be applied...

 
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: cookie2 on October 24, 2018, 06:06:51 pm
The physical advantage is too great and its almost a health and safety issue......you get some slightly built girl badly hurt by Heather M and it will be straight into the courts.
Are insurers going to payout?, have the AFL created a unsafe workplace?...etc etc....
Like I said before if Mitchell Johnson was in Heather M's position would you want him bowling at 150k to women ?.......common sense has to be applied...

If some sanity does not prevail here EB this issue has the potential to kill off or at least severely curtail growth in women's footy as the bigger more powerful players get into it. The AFL need to pay careful attention and soon imo, but good luck to them trying to formulate rules.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: kruddler on October 24, 2018, 06:10:03 pm
These people are hermaphrodite.  They don't fit into the transgender construct.

Yes, but not my point.

If people can physically have both bits.
Is it not plausible that they could mentally be both as well? Or opposite.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Baggers on October 24, 2018, 07:54:08 pm
Yes, but not my point.

If people can physically have both bits.
Is it not plausible that they could mentally be both as well? Or opposite.

Or an indiscernible mix?

Maybe, as DJC mentioned, we're transitioning to a 5 gender interpretation/understanding (Native American).
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on October 21, 2019, 12:10:40 pm
We've see another recent example of this folly that is transgender athletes competing in female sports.

Racheal McKinnon, a transgender cyclist, has risen from relative obscurity to not only dominate the competition but set a blistering new world record. Relative to her opponents she looks like Rene Kink on a bicycle!

It's just crazy, and completely unfair for every female born cyclist on the planet, athletes that have spent years of dedicated training to get to the point they have a remote shot at being the best, only to have it crushed!

This person should not be allowed to compete with females on even terms, it's completely untenable!

I know this post won't go down well with some who champion the minority, but I feel when they do so they disrespect those women who should rightly feel robbed!

(https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/10/Mckinnon.jpg)

There are many ways you can champion a cause without resorting to theft!

Quote from: Victoria Hood
She said: "The science is there. The science is clear – it tells us that trans women have an advantage," she said.

"The world record has just been beaten today by somebody born male, who now identifies as female, and the gap between them and the next born female competitor was quite a lot.

"The world record was two tenths of a second. I know that doesn't sound like a lot but it is.

"The gap between them and the next female competitor was four tenths, which to put into perspective in a sprint event like this, that would be 15m of the track, when sprint events are usually won by centimetres.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: flyboy77 on October 21, 2019, 01:02:07 pm
Simply shouldn't be allowed....though I reckon the South African runner is a different issue again (tougher issue too).
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on October 21, 2019, 01:15:49 pm
Simply shouldn't be allowed....though I reckon the South African runner is a different issue again (tougher issue too).

I agree 100% in this regard related to people like Caster Semenya, and in fairness well also find men with female physical traits that give them an advantage in certain physical activities. But that is a natural variation, not man made!
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: tonyo on October 22, 2019, 02:15:08 pm
I agree 100% in this regard related to people like Caster Semenya, and in fairness well also find men with female physical traits that give them an advantage in certain physical activities. But that is a natural variation, not man made!

Should be a simple rule - if you went through puberty as a male, you should not be allowed to professionally compete as a female.  
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on October 22, 2019, 02:52:59 pm
Should be a simple rule - if you went through puberty as a male, you should not be allowed to professionally compete as a female.

Did they though, this is an area where social politics and medical science play in the shadows!

The problem as I see it is gray, one side claim it makes no difference but the early opposing science suggests otherwise, and the results too it seems make a joke of that claim. Opponents of inclusive participation say it makes a huge difference, but the science is yet to prove it, and many decrying the science are to say the least political, and those supporting it aren't yet brave enough to offer a proof given the viciousness of the debate, and given the way funding works!

So unfortunately it looks like another gutless decision by our generation to leave it for future generations to clean up!
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Amers on October 23, 2019, 09:58:00 pm
In my opinion, allowing transgender athletes to compete in womens sport will eventually become the end of womens sport. If this is true, it would ruin sport for close to half of the worlds population, and for what? To keep a much smaller percentage of people happy. It seems madness to me.... but just my opinion.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: capcom on October 23, 2019, 10:14:59 pm
Run a transgender Olympics and see how far it gets.  Agree Amers.  Total decay of interest and competition.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on February 24, 2022, 04:15:08 pm
I see Mouncey is back in the media slamming the proposed laws to ban transgender athletes from women's sport. She labelled the move transphobic.

I'm fed up to pussy's bow being labelled transphobic every time I fail to agree with one of these minority perspectives.

The truth is the proposed law will make sport fair for women/females, and it would be totally unfair to allow a transgender type like Mouncey to compete against someone's daughter, granddaughter, sister or wife. We have already had several global examples of such absurdities happening in basketball and weight lifting, world records being set that no female will likely ever better!

Let's say the AFLW wins equal pay, ignoring age does Danny Laidley decides to make and pick up a lucrative contract, would that be fair? Can you tell your daughter she is cut from the list because Danny Laidley took her spot! If someone like SpecialK could put on a skirt and run around for the AFLW Baggers earning the same wage as the males, would we cut Mooney, where would it stop?

Those of us old enough to remember put up with unfair Olympics for years, East Germany and Chinese teams sending steroid loaded athletes to games and smashing records with seemingly impossible feats no natural female could match, does it matter that the steroid adjustment is the reverse?

Can I detune a F1 car and race it against a go-cart?

I'm over it, and people like Mouncey need to realise their choices do not come with a free lunch, we all make choices every day that have a cost.

If transgender athletes want to compete, then make them their own competition!
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: capcom on February 24, 2022, 04:33:24 pm
Would not give it the time of day .... women in any sport should just refuse to participate.

Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Lods on February 24, 2022, 06:09:48 pm
The one time greatest male athlete in the world is now a woman.
I wonder how Caitlyn Jenner would go in Masters Track and Field.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: capcom on February 24, 2022, 06:33:58 pm
Credit to Jenner, he / she also is dead against it
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Thryleon on February 25, 2022, 08:17:01 am
Eliminate gender from sport, and you can then have women and men competing on a level playing field.

May the best athlete win.

Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: madbluboy on February 25, 2022, 09:08:08 am
Eliminate gender from sport, and you can then have women and men competing on a level playing field.

May the best athlete win.



There would be no women in sport.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on February 25, 2022, 01:04:12 pm
There would be no women in sport.
The minority lobbyists will set an agenda to have law past that require quotas.

Then the rules of the sport will be changed to ensure women are not put as excessive risk.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: capcom on February 25, 2022, 02:39:17 pm
ALL women should stand out of sport if they have to compete against an athlete born a man.  Let alone tolerating having one on their team.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Thryleon on February 25, 2022, 05:37:11 pm
There would be no women in sport.

Don't tell me you want equality then tell me its not fair that women aren't represented when it's open to both genders.

Equity and equality aren't the same thing.

Hannah can play with the boys if she wants to.

If its a woman's game and you were born with male anatomy then you dont qualify to play afl w.

I'll let Darcy work out why gender fluid causes issues here too.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on March 25, 2023, 05:35:36 pm
There would be no women in sport.
Notice @madbluboy that world swimming and athletics seem to agree with us, and have kyboshed transgenders athletes competing in women's divisions.

For me this was both obvious and inevitable.

I don't get why some people want to bury their head in the sand regarding just how far some would go to secure a medal that in some countries is attached to a life long income. They must have missed the 70s and 80s when the East Germans were flying!

The new rules do not cause an inequality, they stop an inequality from happening!

This issue is going to hit the fan in AFLW and EPLW as well, especially if wages keep rising.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: DJC on March 25, 2023, 07:40:27 pm
I’m quite comfortable with transgender athletes not being permitted to take part in women’s sport.  Sexual dimorphism is significant for Homo sapiens and the physical attributes of transgender females may provide too great an advantage over athletes who were born female.

A friend’s child recently transitioned.  She was quite a good basketballer as a young man but wanting to achieve fame and fortune as a female basketballer played absolutely no part in her desire to be the person she knew she was.

The proposition that an athlete would transition in order to achieve success is about as realistic as someone maiming themselves in order to be a Paralympian.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on March 25, 2023, 10:55:40 pm
We live in a society were people gut others like fish for personal gain, some self-harm for a variety of reasons, others profit from the misery of others, yet we are to believe it's untenable that some may gender alter themselves for profit or some other form of reward.

Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: DJC on March 26, 2023, 12:48:01 am
We live in a society were people gut others like fish for personal gain, some self-harm for a variety of reasons, others profit from the misery of others, yet we are to believe it's untenable that some may gender alter themselves for profit or some other form of reward.

Of course it’s possible, but but it’s highly unlikely.  A bit like growing a second head or third leg 🙄

Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Lods on March 26, 2023, 12:56:01 am
I think everyone deserves the opportunity to compete in a sport they love.

The thing about sports like track and field and swimming (just to name two) is....

They have categories divided by sex.
They have age categories (usually at 2 year intervals) up until open.
They have masters age groups every five years after age thirty.
They have multiple catgories for athletes with a disability.
Doesn't seem that hard to me to add two more categories....trans-male to female and female to male.

Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 26, 2023, 07:25:33 am
I think everyone deserves the opportunity to compete in a sport they love.

The thing about sports like track and field and swimming (just to name two) is....

They have categories divided by sex.
They have age categories (usually at 2 year intervals) up until open.
They have masters age groups every five years after age thirty.
They have multiple catgories for athletes with a disability.
Doesn't seem that hard to me to add two more categories....trans-male to female and female to male.


I agree, I could be wrong but I thought I read somewhere the trans people don't want that as they find it discriminatory (or something along those lines).
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on March 26, 2023, 08:38:09 am
Of course it’s possible, but but it’s highly unlikely.  A bit like growing a second head or third leg 🙄
Yes so unlikely they must struggle to find surgeons, specialists, hospitals, lobby groups, public funding, bureaucratic support, after all the numbers are so low there is no money in it!

Sooner or later a top golfer or tennis player will transition, they won't need to be very heavily inclined to be triggered, the lure of the cash and fame will be too much, and it will all blow up! Moths to the spotlights!
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Thryleon on March 26, 2023, 06:54:07 pm
I think everyone deserves the opportunity to compete in a sport they love.

The thing about sports like track and field and swimming (just to name two) is....

They have categories divided by sex.
They have age categories (usually at 2 year intervals) up until open.
They have masters age groups every five years after age thirty.
They have multiple catgories for athletes with a disability.
Doesn't seem that hard to me to add two more categories....trans-male to female and female to male.



Another way to do it is to stop having gender versions of the same sport.

All genders allowed.

May the best competitor win.

Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Lods on March 26, 2023, 07:00:22 pm
 :D
I suspect you might get an argument from the female sportsfolk. ;)
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: kruddler on March 26, 2023, 07:18:19 pm
Another way to do it is to stop having gender versions of the same sport.

All genders allowed.

May the best competitor win.


Thats relativelyt common nowadays.

Female
and
Open divisions.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on March 27, 2023, 08:13:24 am
Society has done this to itself, it's made divisions, then it's artificially balanced the ledger, now minorities are being made equal with majorities, and finally we have delivered a choice.

No matter what argument you will hear being made that is not nature, nature never gives it's creations a choice it choses for them, the problem is people interfering, the problem is human.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Thryleon on March 27, 2023, 01:41:04 pm
:D
I suspect you might get an argument from the female sportsfolk. ;)

No doubt, but you can bet your bottom dollar that it wouldnt be descriminatory on whom plays.  All players welcome.  You might see a Hannah Mouncey playing forward for St. Kilda this season, but it wouldn't be because Hannah's status, it would be because she is 195cm and built like a house and can take a contested mark and compete physically with the others.

Whenever I start to hear all these arguments about trans women being real women and playing on the same playing field, I immediately think of Karsten Braasch, and the story of him facing off against the Williams sisters.  Ranked at over 200 in the world, and playing against admittedly younger opponents only freshly hitting the open pro tour, he was able to despatch both of them despite smoking durries at the change of ends.

Things might be a bit different today, and that may result in a more balanced match if a competitive male truly faced off against a competitive female, but ultimately it will silence the calls for trans people to play in the sport of the opposite gender.


Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on March 27, 2023, 02:19:30 pm
Things might be a bit different today, and that may result in a more balanced match if a competitive male truly faced off against a competitive female,
It might be feasible in some select skill based sports, but it's just untenable in most contact or power based sports for females to be competing next to men, whether the men started off as men or flipped to women.

For example, golf can be conducted on pretty even terms, because a drive and chip for a male might be a drive and 5 iron for a female, but once they are on the green it's Even Steven. If you can putt the lights out, gender can be largely irrelevant.

For other sports that aren't gender neutral the girls deserve the right to have their own league and to be able to compete in that league on equal terms with peers. This whole trans-athlete debate is not about equality at all, it's a massive advantage dressed up as a form of non-discrimination.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 27, 2023, 04:50:32 pm
So if Anrich Nortje becomes a trans athlete and wants to play female cricket we are going to have women facing 155km deliveries, sounds a good way to get a lot of female cricketers badly injured or worse.
In some sports like LP pointed out like Golf etc it would work fine but in others it would be a brutal advantage to the former male in most cases.
LP's comments when he says "For other sports that aren't gender neutral the girls deserve the right to have their own league and to be able to compete in that league on equal terms with peers. This whole trans-athlete debate is not about equality at all, it's a massive advantage dressed up as a form of non-discrimination.
LP has Nailed it and nothing further to add....
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: DJC on March 27, 2023, 10:53:09 pm
So if Anrich Nortje becomes a trans athlete and wants to play female cricket we are going to have women facing 155km deliveries, sounds a good way to get a lot of female cricketers badly injured or worse.
In some sports like LP pointed out like Golf etc it would work fine but in others it would be a brutal advantage to the former male in most cases.
LP's comments when he says "For other sports that aren't gender neutral the girls deserve the right to have their own league and to be able to compete in that league on equal terms with peers. This whole trans-athlete debate is not about equality at all, it's a massive advantage dressed up as a form of non-discrimination.
LP has Nailed it and nothing further to add....

And what are the chances of Nortje deciding that he’s really female?  Would he make more money playing cricket as a she?  Would he even be able to play cricket competitively after gender reassignment?

170 Australians identified as transgender in the 2016 census.  That’s probably a gross underestimate but, even if it was 170,000, that’s a minuscule percentage of our population.  Even so, of my projected 100,000 male to female transgender folk, how many would have the ability and desire to play competitive sport?

I don’t think that transgender females should be competing against biological females and I don’t think many transgender males would have a competitive advantage over biological males. Some transgender females, Hannah Mouncey for example, and some activists maintain that not allowing transgender females to take part in female sport is discrimination.  It probably is but, as others have suggested, it’s justifiable discrimination because it involves health and safety and fairness.

I reckon that at least 95% of transgender females have absolutely no desire to use their male physique to gain an advantage in any competitive sport.  Of the remainder, I doubt very much that any were motivated to transition by the lure of making their fortune beating up on female athletes.

In other words, transgender athletes gaining an unfair advantage over biological females is a non-issue.  By all means ban transgender athletes from gendered competitions.  Sadly, anti-transgender hysteria provides fertile ground for neo-nazi anti-LBQTI+ propaganda.


Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on March 28, 2023, 01:34:28 am
People take massive risks and do horrible things for profit all the time, even start wars killing millions.

How many so inclined out of the planets billions are needed to destroy the integrity of female sport, even just one of every 10M is probably way too many?

Even without equal pay we've already seen transgender athletes banned because they dominate, it's not hypothetical, it already happening which is the real reason for this debate. I don't think weightlifting, swimming and basketball think it's hysteria!

Allowing transgender athletes in power sports simply because of the radicals attached to the debate would be a second wrong, not a right.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Thryleon on March 28, 2023, 06:48:24 am
And what are the chances of Nortje deciding that he’s really female?  Would he make more money playing cricket as a she?  Would he even be able to play cricket competitively after gender reassignment?

170 Australians identified as transgender in the 2016 census.  That’s probably a gross underestimate but, even if it was 170,000, that’s a minuscule percentage of our population.  Even so, of my projected 100,000 male to female transgender folk, how many would have the ability and desire to play competitive sport?

I don’t think that transgender females should be competing against biological females and I don’t think many transgender males would have a competitive advantage over biological males. Some transgender females, Hannah Mouncey for example, and some activists maintain that not allowing transgender females to take part in female sport is discrimination.  It probably is but, as others have suggested, it’s justifiable discrimination because it involves health and safety and fairness.

I reckon that at least 95% of transgender females have absolutely no desire to use their male physique to gain an advantage in any competitive sport.  Of the remainder, I doubt very much that any were motivated to transition by the lure of making their fortune beating up on female athletes.

In other words, transgender athletes gaining an unfair advantage over biological females is a non-issue.  By all means ban transgender athletes from gendered competitions.  Sadly, anti-transgender hysteria provides fertile ground for neo-nazi anti-LBQTI+ propaganda.




Neo-nazi?

There is a very different scenario to a fascist regime and being against transgenderism.  I personally don't view the avenue as being healthy for anybody because it involves not accepting your body and self mutilation on a level that I personally deem to be unscientific in the way its diagnosed and then represented.

The root to happiness is accepting things for what they are particularly when it comes to body image and for some reason trans is one avenue where people cannot accept their body for what it is and everyone is forced to comply.  Not everyone will be a supermodel, and not everyone is gifted with athletic abilities.  Some are born autistic but that doesn't mean they can be something they aren't, and it also means that you embrace the body you were gifted with rather than fight against it.  There are some grey spots in that mix but they're outliers and rather than go into this avenue where people are choosing what gender they are, we should be a little more understanding of their plight rather than having to have them with labels of transgenderism.

I recognise that some people have a belief that they are in the wrong body but this belief is an identity struggle and not capable of being truly tested and is subjective not objective in how its being applied and then you simply have people play acting and donning some labels rather than appreciating the physiological experience of being a gender and what that means.

I am a firm believer that the biological experience is more capable of shaping someone's identity that anything else and I entertained the transgender element of identity to a point and then realised that its social engineering dressed in mental health wellness rather than a true road to happiness and the more society fights people on this front the worse off we are.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Baggers on March 28, 2023, 09:07:42 am
Neo-nazi?

There is a very different scenario to a fascist regime and being against transgenderism.  I personally don't view the avenue as being healthy for anybody because it involves not accepting your body and self mutilation on a level that I personally deem to be unscientific in the way its diagnosed and then represented.

The root to happiness is accepting things for what they are particularly when it comes to body image and for some reason trans is one avenue where people cannot accept their body for what it is and everyone is forced to comply.  Not everyone will be a supermodel, and not everyone is gifted with athletic abilities.

Neo-nazis are a sad group who seem to believe that anything or anyone different to them and their beliefs is wrong/bad and to be opposed, denigrated or even destroyed. Neo-nazis and hard Right Fundamentalists have much in common - a deeply fearful, angry and condemning group of malcontents... dangerous malcontents, and anything they can grab on to that is different to their clinically warped and narrow view will be used to further their own repulsive/anti-humanitarian/anti-acceptance/disrespectful dogmas.

The key word in your second paragraph, 3 Leos, is body 'image.' For transgender folks, and the like, it is far more than image, it's identity. And of course, like many things, there is a spectrum of identity. Somewhat like a job you have that you have little or no connection with, you seek to find a job that suits you better (or run the risk of sinking into depression or avoidance)... a very simplistic example, but one that may help everyday folks to understand the dilemma of folks born in one gender, but identify, deeply and authentically, with a different identity... in time they may find that changing does not help, but most find that it does. I have a few people in my life who've changed gender to suit their true identity and all have found meaning and even happiness in having made the change. Accepting 'difference' in so many areas of human existence has been a challenge for humans, for eons. Acceptance is about respect for the other.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Thryleon on March 28, 2023, 10:05:41 am
Neo-nazis are a sad group who seem to believe that anything or anyone different to them and their beliefs is wrong/bad and to be opposed, denigrated or even destroyed. Neo-nazis and hard Right Fundamentalists have much in common - a deeply fearful, angry and condemning group of malcontents... dangerous malcontents, and anything they can grab on to that is different to their clinically warped and narrow view will be used to further their own repulsive/anti-humanitarian/anti-acceptance/disrespectful dogmas.

The key word in your second paragraph, 3 Leos, is body 'image.' For transgender folks, and the like, it is far more than image, it's identity. And of course, like many things, there is a spectrum of identity. Somewhat like a job you have that you have little or no connection with, you seek to find a job that suits you better (or run the risk of sinking into depression or avoidance)... a very simplistic example, but one that may help everyday folks to understand the dilemma of folks born in one gender, but identify, deeply and authentically, with a different identity... in time they may find that changing does not help, but most find that it does. I have a few people in my life who've changed gender to suit their true identity and all have found meaning and even happiness in having made the change. Accepting 'difference' in so many areas of human existence has been a challenge for humans, for eons. Acceptance is about respect for the other.

Baggers, where it starts to become problematic for me is that it is the facet of being transgender that is the identity that they seek, not necessarily the fact that they identify as a gender they were not born as and identity politics is just one facet of it.  Its all very subjective, and not very observable.  I have seen people convince themselves they are happy or miserable based on various factors, and ultimately its all very feeling based.  Where is the objective science in this?  The answer is, that there isnt.  I can cope with a guy wearing a dress, and changing their name.  Its all a bit weird, but thats cool, but when I am forced to label someone who clearly isnt a female a female, then it starts to become really difficult to accept.  I will treat the people they way they are asking and label them female, or she or whatever because I am not mean spirited, but its not going to change my opinion and an anonymous forum like this one, is one of the few places you can air the view without being subject to almost becoming a social outcast, which is just a greater symptom of problem we are facing in the modern world.

We will rehash a lot of debate about this stuff if we continue down this discussion, and I am happy to agree to disagree on the subject matter, but Neo Nazism isnt having an opposing view, its making people comply with it and not being able to share their own thoughts.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: madbluboy on March 28, 2023, 11:07:31 am
You are safe here Thry, unlike those 9 year old Christian kids in Nashville.
Can we label the shooter mentally ill or is that offensive?
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on March 28, 2023, 11:13:45 am
The key word in your second paragraph, 3 Leos, is body 'image.' For transgender folks, and the like, it is far more than image, it's identity.
Nature doesn't deliver a choice @Baggers , the choice is delivered by humans using technical, social and political constructs. Part of this protest might well be less than honourable, but that can't be used to dismiss or ignore genuine concerns.

As for the identity / body image scenario, again it's not a natural choice, it's something we are presented with at gestation. What is offered now is a modification, it could be argued that humanity has taken various sexualities and turned them into genders. Then there is the idea change can bring happiness, but does it or does it just deliver a different type of unhappiness?

My concern, and I think based on the human history it's pretty well justified, is that if there is a way to leverage or manipulate a situation for personal gain then some will always be willing to give it a try. The idea that is impossible, too hard or a only a very small risk is already contradicted by what we read happening. The motivation and opportunity is not going to diminish as technology improves and the reward increases.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Baggers on March 28, 2023, 01:28:52 pm
You are safe here Thry, unlike those 9 year old Christian kids in Nashville.
Can we label the shooter mentally ill or is that offensive?

Not at all offensive to me. Mental illness is never an excuse or justification for causing harm to others.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: DJC on March 28, 2023, 02:30:27 pm
The father of a transgender child called the ABC recently.  He spoke about how his child had been bullied throughout their school life and was effectively being bullied by the anti-transgender agenda being pushed by some religious and political groups.

He made the point that if someone decides that they have the wrong gender, that should be their business and their business alone.

I don’t want to talk about nazi ideology other than to point out that the nazis who attended the Parliament House protest weren’t there to support transgender rights.

Their modus operandi is to pick issues that concern some folk - multiculturalism, vaccination, mask wearing, homosexuality, “freedom”, nationalism, big government, etc - and use them to promote their hateful agenda.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: Lods on March 28, 2023, 02:41:15 pm
It's a bit of a catch 22.
Nazis...
You don't want to see them because of their hateful ideologies.
You do want to see them so you know who, and where they are. ;)
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on March 28, 2023, 04:21:39 pm
He made the point that if someone decides that they have the wrong gender, that should be their business and their business alone.
I think we would universally agree.

But decisions like that do have life long consequences, and a child who begins the process of transition as a teenager is quite different from an adult male or even an adult male athlete transitioning to become a female athlete.

I have no problem with individuals transitioning, but males becoming females then stealing opportunity, fame, fortune and glory from the girls is a step too far!

Everyday we have to make decisions decisions that alter or limit our future options. The decision to transition in gender is just one of them, but nothing in nature rules that a decision like that or any other decision comes free of consequence.

For all this anti-transgender rhetoric, I find it interesting that we hear and see nothing from the media about the Misandrist R&D into Parthenogenesis, which proceeds overseas unrestricted to eliminate male gametes from the fertilisation chain completely, all sponsored by a lesbian billionaire.

But people would never go that far, it's too difficult, it'll never happen! :o

PS: A devils advocate question, based around the concept of quotas, many which are now legalities in workplaces. If a transitioned individual is employed or voted into a position of politic advocacy, which side of the ledger do they fall?
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 28, 2023, 05:05:24 pm
And what are the chances of Nortje deciding that he’s really female?  Would he make more money playing cricket as a she?  Would he even be able to play cricket competitively after gender reassignment?

Could be any former male quick bowler sending them down at high speed, if he wants to be female and compete in a female comp it has nothing to do with how much money he wants to make and be all about living his life as a female.

I presume the medical procedures would leave his arms and legs alone and adjust/remove the appropriate other equipment.... :-[ so I couldnt see why he physically couldnt run in and bowl.

The ICC seem to think transgender cricketers can play competitively....if you believe the following...

The ICC's transgender policy is based on International Olympic Committee guidelines, and allows trans women to play women's cricket at international level if their testosterone level has been under ten nanomoles per litre for at least 12 months, and stays that way during competition.

There is no way I would want my daughter playing cricket vs a transgender player playing with such a physical advantage and making it a more dangerous sport than it already is and that goes for any other sport where the advantages sit outside the norm of the game.

Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: DJC on March 29, 2023, 10:51:08 am
And what are the chances of Nortje deciding that he’s really female?  Would he make more money playing cricket as a she?  Would he even be able to play cricket competitively after gender reassignment?

Could be any former male quick bowler sending them down at high speed, if he wants to be female and compete in a female comp it has nothing to do with how much money he wants to make and be all about living his life as a female.

I presume the medical procedures would leave his arms and legs alone and adjust/remove the appropriate other equipment.... :-[ so I couldnt see why he physically couldnt run in and bowl.

The ICC seem to think transgender cricketers can play competitively....if you believe the following...

The ICC's transgender policy is based on International Olympic Committee guidelines, and allows trans women to play women's cricket at international level if their testosterone level has been under ten nanomoles per litre for at least 12 months, and stays that way during competition.

There is no way I would want my daughter playing cricket vs a transgender player playing with such a physical advantage and making it a more dangerous sport than it already is and that goes for any other sport where the advantages sit outside the norm of the game.

I watched that "You can't ask that" program on TV a while back and learnt quite a bit about transgender folk.  I was not game to ask the two transgender women I used to worked with!  Apparently, some folk transition while keeping their wobbly bits intact.  It's a chemical/hormone process rather than surgical.  Those who do undergo surgery also have hormone treatment.  I'm speculating here but it wouldn't surprise me if that treatment has an impact on athletic performance.

I don't think that transgender females who transitioned after puberty should be able to take part in women's sport where size and strength provides an advantage.  My point is that transgender females who want to play women's sport will be few and far between.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on March 29, 2023, 10:55:58 am
I don't think that transgender females who transitioned after puberty should be able to take part in women's sport where size and strength provides an advantage.  My point is that transgender females who want to play women's sport will be few and far between.
I get that and I agree.

But I do not understand the opposition to rules preventing transgender in female contact sport, because the risk is asymmetrical. The rules preventing transgender in sports impact hardly anybody by a global comparison, for now, but allowing transgender in sport could be devastating either to those sports or to some of the participating individuals. The issue of transgender rights in sport is so disproportionately represented it can't be the motivation for the ongoing debate, so I have to assume it is a lead-in, a smokescreen. Like complaining about a full stop at the end of a bible in order to have it banned!

Humans are uniquely bastards, they will do something that is against societal standards just because they can, or because they have been told they cannot. The safeguards needed to protect and preserve female contact sport for females are trivial and sensible, the claim they may severely impact a very small minority isn't just an artificial construct, it is trivial concern. Even if they do impact an individual it's as a consequence of that individuals own decisions.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: DJC on March 29, 2023, 11:18:48 am
I get that and I agree.

But I do not understand the opposition to rules preventing transgender in female contact sport, because the risk is asymmetrical. The rules preventing transgender in sports impact hardly anybody by a global comparison, for now, but allowing transgender in sport could be devastating either to those sports or to some of the participating individuals. The issue of transgender rights in sport is so disproportionately represented it can't be the motivation for the ongoing debate, so I have to assume it is a lead-in, a smokescreen. Like complaining about a full stop at the end of a bible in order to have it banned!

Humans are uniquely bastards, they will do something that is against societal standards just because they can, or because they have been told they cannot. The safeguards needed to protect and preserve female sports for females are trivial and sensible, the claim they may severely impact a very small minority isn't just an artificial construct, it is trivial concern. Even if they do impact an individual it's as a consequence of that individuals own decisions.

The other side of the coin is folk protesting about gender reassignment.  Are they worried that it's contagious and will spread exponentially until affects 0.1% of the population?

On a lighter note, I read Gore Vidal's "Myra Breckinridge" back in the the late 1960s.  I think that it would stand the test of time as an entertaining satirical story of gender and sexuality.  The sequel, "Myron", is OK but lacks the punch of the first novel.  There was a movie starring Raquel Welch as Myron/Myra but I don't think that it was particularly memorable.
Title: Re: Hannah Mouncey
Post by: LP on March 29, 2023, 11:25:00 am
The other side of the coin is folk protesting about gender reassignment.  Are they worried that it's contagious and will spread exponentially until affects 0.1% of the population?
Yes we get the perspective of the nutters, is a nutter perspective, but that cannot be used to justify doing the very opposite of what they desire as that would potentially drastically alter female sports.

We have to be better than allowing or preventing via laws that are an eye for an eye, people have to accept life is aggregation of choices, you can't have it all, many of things you do and decisions you make naturally come at a cost! Kardashian / Jenner existence is not real, they are curated fairy-tales!

I don't want young girls with aspirations of a sporting career rolling up to their club and immediately identifying that they can't possibly compete with Bertha(Formerly 90kg Bert)!