Carlton Supporters Club

Soft & insipid, that is all.

Out muscled by Deledio, Cotchin and Grigg, that says something! :o

As I said in the in game thread:

Someone please please take those pregame fireworks and ram it up each Carlton players arse!

Feel sorry for Daisy, but really, he and Judd should swap pay packets.

Oh well, on to next week. Against the cokers.

Tiggies wanted it more than us, and were prepared to work harder for it.

Judd aside, the rest should give their money back. Disgusting.

Soft & insipid, that is all.

Christ... Going to be a long 5 months.

So, start playing the kids...? 

I thought Docherty and White were okay.....probably two guys I haven't really rated.

Was Murphy injured during the preseason? Looked well off the pace.

Tanking

Well the experts are right, we're a less than very ordinary club, with an ordinary list, poor on-field leaders (but hey they're fun on social media)... and coaches who are living entirely on reputation.

Oh, and, tribe... really... tribe! What a ridiculous and shallow attempt to bond us. Marketing only works when your product is worth promoting... ours, isn't.

I fear we have a CEO expert in corporate jargon but little else.

There was a time when the CFC meant something...

Jones came to the club as a VFL players and had 6 touches to remind us of that fact.

Jaksch came to the club with high expectations and had 5 touches and looked like he should be back in the TAC Cup.

Gibbs had 25 and I can't recall a decent one amongst that lot.

Murphy had a horror night with some shocking turnovers.

Wood struggled in the ruck, Rowe was very poor in defence and there was a real lack of fight and/or pride from the remainder of the players.

Smith didn't expect to play a full game but the injury to Thomas changed all that.

Overall, if that is what we are going to offer up this season, then 10th will be our best finishing position and 14th is the most likely.

Very sad & embarrassing start to the season, always can handle a loss but not when they play that brand of footy.   

Conned again....

I can't think of an area where we were better than this time last year.

just rang visa and told them my credit card was fraudulently used to by a Carlton membership

Judd aside, the rest should give their money back. Disgusting.

Actually I thought White and Docherty deserve a pass mark.  And Clem as well, even though I had a crack at him in the in game thread.

Murphy isn't a captains a-hole.  Jones kicked his two goals and went home.  Jaks was a major dissapointment.  Gibbs was a not very funny joke.  Rowe should never play again and neither should Bell.  Henderson was lazy.  Yarran's read too much of his own press.  Carrazo was earnest but the best is behind him. Simmo gave up.  Cripps has the in an under skills but not an AFL motor. 

Thought Docherty was good.   Menzel showed a bit.

When the Tigers had the tempo in the 2nd we just can't slow a side down and hold onto the pill.

Couldn't have dreamed of a worse start.  Insipid.  Clueless.  Slow.  No leadership.  No positives.

Sorry, but Malthouse is finished on tonight's "effort"..... Gameplan is hopeless.  Long bomb around the boundary to contests.  We let decent players leave and replace them with crap.

12th would be a miracle, more likely bottom three.

Only saw the last 2 quarters and from what I saw people are correct placing us in the bottom 4. Bottom 2 maybe. I will give another rant after I have had a chance to watch the first half. Judd and Docherty tried to do what they could, the rest were just carried by 2 players. Liam, go f@ck off to where you came from, and Jaksch you are a complete liability. ::)

Christ... Going to be a long 5 months.

So, start playing the kids...?

Kids are not the answer. They played 2 tonight who showed they have a long way to go. The senior players need to drive the improvement. The missed kicks by senior players was deplorable. Someone said we are VFL std, we wouldn't have beaten an EDFL side playing like that.

Smith didn't expect to play a full game but the injury to Thomas changed all that.

Picking Smith and making him Sub is a losing strategy, our old fashioned coaches do not understand the Sub, I suppose that is why they push so hard for it to go!

Docherty, Judd, Carrazzo with >>>>>>>>>>>>> the rest.

Conned again....

I can't think of an area where we were better than this time last year.

Yes.

Well the experts are right, we're a less than very ordinary club, with an ordinary list, poor on-field leaders (but hey they're fun on social media)... and coaches who are living entirely on reputation.

Oh, and, tribe... really... tribe! What a ridiculous and shallow attempt to bond us. Marketing only works when your product is worth promoting... ours, isn't.

I fear we have a CEO expert in corporate jargon but little else.

There was a time when the CFC meant something...

Any guns in the top 5 this year?

Or do we continue to draft 22-24 year olds wh can't mark, kick or tackle?

Micky Martin & Micky Malthouse
came to carlton to complete milestones
Thats it!

Picking Smith and making him Sub is a losing strategy, our old fashioned coaches do not understand the Sub, I suppose that is why they push so hard for it to go!

Agreed. 

What makes me sad is that I see no solutions or upside.  We have no depth in the magoos and our coaching staff don't want to change their thinking.

Micky Martin & Micky Malthouse
came to carlton to complete milestones
Thats it!

You're assuming MM gets to the milestone, after tonight it is no certainty! ;)

Thought Docherty was good.   Menzel showed a bit.

When the Tigers had the tempo in the 2nd we just can't slow a side down and hold onto the pill.

Yep Docherty was the highlight, Menzel showed a bit, but he's done that all his career, we need Menzel to step up.

At least hendo ran around and demanded the ball but their rebounding backs flogged us.  I don't like Mendel playing high as he is the only smaller bloke with the smarts to create space.

Christ we are slow. Buckley and Boekhorst must play next week. 

Micky Martin & Micky Malthouse
came to carlton to complete milestones
Thats it!

Can't argue with the truth.

Well the experts are right, we're a less than very ordinary club, with an ordinary list, poor on-field leaders (but hey they're fun on social media)... and coaches who are living entirely on reputation.

Oh, and, tribe... really... tribe! What a ridiculous and shallow attempt to bond us. Marketing only works when your product is worth promoting... ours, isn't.

I fear we have a CEO expert in corporate jargon but little else.

There was a time when the CFC meant something...

Yep Docherty was the highlight, Menzel showed a bit, but he's done that all his career, we need Menzel to step up.

Based on tonight's performance, Doc, Menzel and Judd are the least of our worries.

You're assuming MM gets to the milestone, after tonight it is no certainty! ;)

i hope not - pass the hat around at lexus and you'll have half the payout in 30 minutes

Docherty was terrific and I can't recall him making an error all night ....... give him the captaincy.

Everritt played as weak a game as I have ever seen, needs to be read the riot act.

Well, on tonight's form anyway, we seemingly have made zero progress on last year and it looks like being another long year ahead. We look frighteningly the same to me with all the same weaknesses, lack of skill, proneness to turnovers and inability to get to the ball and compete fiercely. Don't think I will be going along to many games this year I'm afraid - too frustrating to watch this and then have to catch a train home.  :( 

Gee, it's been a bl00dy ordinary week!

Everritt played as weak a game as I have ever seen, needs to be read the riot act.

When you watch Kamdyn McIntosh's first game it really makes a contrast!

Just reminding you of what Mick said on the 21st March : 

“I shouldn’t say this in front of the cameras, but it’s very, very difficult to see where we’re going to lose a game,” Malthouse said to much applause.

“I can’t see it. I’m an optimist. I look at them at think: ‘Gee, they’re a good bunch of kids’, I love them and I reckon they can get the best out of themselves and we can have a damn good year.

“The most important thing is that you people say that they’ve had a crack at it. That’s fundamental to our growth.”

Ouch. we stunk it up and should have lost by more.

Awful kicking across the board and the same old suspects.  I expect Bell and Curnow to butcher it every time now. But even when we get a clean kick forward it goes high and slow and is easily cut off. This is a deeply worrying part of our game and it seems to be a problem of both poor kicking and forwards not providing options.

Docherty was one of our best, along with Yarren. Carrazzo got a bit of the ball and White tried hard but it fell away after that. 

Forward line is a debacle and there is little to show it is going to get much better. Our forward players (as opposed to actual forwards) have just too many limitations so it is always an exercise in filling gaps.  Rowe is not really a league player, Jones is a only a stopgap and it is hard to see what he provides in terms of a consistent forward presence.  Its good to take a grab and kick a couple of goals but more effort is required for the whole game.  And Henderson still seems too inclined to run backwards or struggle with his opponent.

We are going to struggle to kick more than 80 points a game as our midfield just dont kick enough and have not for some time. And was amazed at the number of missed tackles too, we looked out of puff by the last quarter, and many midfielders were struggling to make contests.

It's a long season.  :-\

Yep Docherty was the highlight, Menzel showed a bit, but he's done that all his career, we need Menzel to step up.

I thought Wood battled manfully.

I'm glad For the support for Docherty. He was my best, clean hands, beat kick, good decisions..

Just reminding you of what Mick said on the 21st March:

Quote

“The most important thing is that you people say that they’ve had a crack at it. That’s fundamental to our growth.”

We must be shrinking!

Recession, recession they cried!

Just saying on Ch7 Daisy out for 12-14 wks.

i just cant see where the next coach is going to be coming from...or more importantly, whether they'd come

More bad news, Yarran has injured his right knee.

Time to tank! ;)

I think it's now pointless continuing with Mick, we are at least 3 years away and if he's not by his used by date now he certainly will be by then!

I really hope that Rowe's game tonight was an aberration and that he continues his good form from last season. Would love to see him do well in 2015.

Great.  Round 1 and the only blokes who can kick are injured.  I hope SOS targets the right kind of playerwith that first pick.

Disappointed but not gutted, losing Thomas in the first few minutes was always going to make it very tough and in the end we just ran out of steam, but they kept having a go.
Good games from Judd, Simpson, Yarran, Docherty, Gibbs and Bell but Maric thrashed Wood in the ruck so our midfield was up against it from the get go.
It won't get any easier until we can get Kreuzer up and running.

What I don't get is that Jones is meant to be our third forward.  Why didn't the Bolt play?  I know he's no champion, but he can take a mark and actually sucks up a half decent defender. He can also ruck.  As much as we were insipid we lost this at the selection table.

For next week, they need to drop Rowe (which I know they won't) and Bell who is better suited in the seconds.  Buckley must come in and the Bolt as well. And while Warnock is a hack, Wood simply doesn't have the body to play number 1 ruck.

And fk me but I hope and pray Cameron Giles gets a decent run and shows something because right now Jaksch is looking like a lemon.

Also where is Whiley at? 

To lose to a very average Richmond team doesnt bode well for the year......

Yarran....not enough, didnt chase at times.

Jamison...Reiwoldt beat him and was one of the tigers better players...bit too mobile for Jamo

Jaksch...one good goal and the rest was a shocker...got to play on the giant Griffiths and was too outsized and looked sore and injured at times.

Touhy..one nice gimme goal but not much else.

Rowe...very ordinary night and looks like he needs some more work...two late goals in junk time.

Docherty...our best player and surprised me with his reading of the play and coolness under pressure

Everitt....didnt really impact but wasnt our worst either...

Curnow....played on Ellis I think but didnt get much of the footy himself...

Simpson.....tried but not one of his better games.

Juddy...kept on keeping on and while he doesnt hurt teams like he did he is still one of our best and works hard at the coalface.

Murphy....not our worst but not much impact either..

Gibbs....I'd lose the man bun because its not working for him.....very average game with plenty of errors...

Bell...nothing till 3/4 time then seemed to be everywhere and was on of our best in the last quarter but the heat of the game was off so I wasnt so impressed.

Wood...battled well and didnt allow Maric to dominate ..

White....I said he was the man for Martin and he didnt let me down....workmanlike after being hit high by Deledio.

Smith....tough first game and he looked nervous, Houli made him look bad by rebounding everything we stuffed up but Smith wasnt that bad and has a future.

Jones....some good some not so good.....couple of marks and goals, some bad misses, some poor chasing, some good chasing....Bulldogs fans
would say same old same old Liam Jones...

Carrazzo...battled on and won some footy but never hurt the Tigers..

Cripps...like Bell got some footy late in the game mainly at the coalface but his confidence by foot is down and he just wants to handball,
lack that yard of pace and still looks like he doesnt have an AFL tank yet..

Daisy....injured early and looked a sad man and lets hope he gets back with no surgery..

Menzel.....couple of goals and worked his way up the ground at times to find the footy but didnt get many clear opportunities and looked slow at times.

Henderson...like Jones had his moments and was good early but didnt ever grab the game like Reiwoldt did for the Tigers...

For the Tigers....we got hurt bad by three no names in McIntosh, Griffths and Lloyd...the former is a big unit fo a wigman and never had a man most of the time and was able to barge his way through packs and setup a few goals...
Griffiths.....been a stiff so far in his career but worried us with his size and if he does mark the ball you put the goal in the book because he kicks very well...Casboult should copy his kicking action...
Lloyd..former VFL small forward and knows where the goals are....we didnt have a similar player down our end and it appears we have failed to replace Betts and Garlett
and I would expect either Johnson,Tutt or Ellard to play next game which tells you we have stuffed up by not recruiting a specialist small forward...Johnson would be my choice.....

Maric thrashed Wood in the ruck so our midfield was up against it from the get go.

Wood 11 disposals, 2 marks, 28 hit outs
Marics 13 disposals, 4 marks, 33 hit outs
Hardly a thrashing I would have thought.

White and Curnow at least have a good crack, just a shame their skill levels are not better.

Murph, Gibbs and pretty much the whole midfield need a rocket, zero effort when the tigers had the ball, is simply unacceptable. It's embarrassing to the jumper and the club.

The tigers were given way too much time and space to work in and that made it far too easy for their forward line.

They killed us all night by playing a 3rd mad back in defense and at no stage that I saw did we try to man him up. What the??

Clem showed a couple of good signs, but it was a terrible mistake to play him, he didn't have the fitness to run out the game and it was a poor decision from the match committee to select him.

senior players and leaders jamison carrozzo murphy gibbs all useless
the list needs further rebuilding
long season ahead I expected

Jaschh good signs
jones nice things early


i will keep the faith

Never trade a top 10 pick unless it's for a champion.

Great.  Round 1 and the only blokes who can kick are injured.  I hope SOS targets the right kind of playerwith that first pick.

He'll have one in the top 4 at least.

Never trade a top 10 pick unless it's for a champion.

Amen.

Very kind assessment there EB.  We didn't have a clear winner against an average side.  I'm concerned at the paucity of effort and lack of upside.  Where is the improvement to come from?

Wood 11 disposals, 2 marks, 28 hit outs
Marics 13 disposals, 4 marks, 33 hit outs
Hardly a thrashing I would have thought.

Effective hit outs are a different matter.

sos has alot of work to do...

Wood 11 disposals, 2 marks, 28 hit outs
Marics 13 disposals, 4 marks, 33 hit outs
Hardly a thrashing I would have thought.

Agree...I thought Wood was ok and Maric is a quality opponent....not sure if a fit Kruezer would have done any better..

Wood 11 disposals, 2 marks, 28 hit outs
Marics 13 disposals, 4 marks, 33 hit outs
Hardly a thrashing I would have thought.

Yes, not sure how someone can think Wood was thrashed.

Maric rarely loses and Wood has done well against possibly the competitions most physical opponent!

If you think Maric thrashed Wood, thank God Warnock wasn't playing! ;)

Tigers exposed all our newbies. If you were watching on tv and wondering who was on the richmond defenders running down the wing? The answer is Clem who was completely spent after one quarter and the tigers knew it and went through whoever he was near.

Our senior players went AWOL:

Gibbs - shocker
Murphy - ditto

Simmo - unsighted in the last 2.5qtrs

Jamo - bordering on spud.

Rowe - see Jamo.

Carrots - ok in patches

Judd - gun, gun & gun. Murphy and Gibbs shame on you both. #1 draft picks my right butt cheek.

Was a massive mistake making Murphy Captain - set the Club back years (at a time it couldn't afford such a f... up).

Kids went ok, mistake not playing the Bolt.

Why play a bloke with no tank surely Mick can't be that bloody stupid????

Tigers exposed all our newbies. If you were watching on tv and wondering who was on the richmond defenders running down the wing? The answer is Clem who was completely spent after one quarter and the tigers knew it and went through whoever he was near.

So why was he picked?

Tigers exposed all our newbies. If you were watching on tv and wondering who was on the richmond defenders running down the wing? The answer is Clem who was completely spent after one quarter and the tigers knew it and went through whoever he was near.

I wouldn't call blokes like Bell, Everitt and Tuohy newbies!

I agree on Wood - he was OK against a pretty good opponent in Maric. Not our biggest worry tonight by a long shot.

Tigers exposed all our newbies. If you were watching on tv and wondering who was on the richmond defenders running down the wing? The answer is Clem who was completely spent after one quarter and the tigers knew it and went through whoever he was near.

Clem isnt ready and we know he attacks the ball well but he doesnt have the pace of the game yet and needs some VFL games to find some footy and build confidence.

So why was he picked?

How would I know?

Mick blaming the loss on the injury of Thomas in his presser. Or a major reason behind the loss.

Did anyone see him roasting Jaksch on the boundary in the third quarter??

So why was he picked?

Because Boekhorst didnt do enough to warrant a game either and looks too light for senior footy and Smith was probably seen as being more ready..

Agree...I thought Wood was ok and Maric is a quality opponent....not sure if a fit Kruezer would have done any better..

We've been down for so long that we don't know good footballers when we see them.
Wood has a good crack but he's a very ordinary footballer, if he was any good he'd still be at Collingwood.
We think that Casboult is a key forward, that Rowe is a key defender, that Footscray let good forwards go, that Henderson is a star and Ed Curnow is the best tagger in the business.
It's part of loving your footy club and I'm as guilty of it as the next bloke, but it's delusional.
We're a middle of the list team playing at our best and with a few injuries we're in deep trouble, it's tough to accept.
Kreuzer is no champion but he's twice the footballer Wood is.

Effective hit outs are a different matter.

Well from where I sat, Wood was from from being the problem. Murphy, Henderson, 2E, Simpson, Curnow, Rowe, Jamison, Yarran, Everitt on the other hand.

Mick blaming the loss on the injury of Thomas in his presser. Or a major reason behind the loss.

Mick has more to worry about than Daisy......needs a win next week to stop the rattling of the knives that are heading his way...

Did anyone see him roasting Jaksch on the boundary in the third quarter??

Were you surprised, he gave away a gazillion free kicks.

Did anyone see him roasting Jaksch on the boundary in the third quarter??

He was terrible.

Well from where I sat, Wood was from from being the problem. Murphy, Henderson, 2E, Simpson, Curnow, Rowe, Jamison, Yarran, Everitt on the other hand.

Fair enough.
I agree we had our fair share of poor players and Wood wasn't even the worst of them, but I thought Maric pantsed him.

Because Boekhorst didnt do enough to warrant a game either and looks too light for senior footy and Smith was probably seen as being more ready..

Both those guys ahead of Graham and Buckley?

Mick has more to worry about than Daisy......needs a win next week to stop the rattling of the knives that are heading his way...

West Coast at Subi... Hello 0-4 again.

Least I am in a box.

He was terrible.

Surely Mick has better than that for a young bloke playing his first game for the club. That was the trademark of your mate from a decade ago.

Mick said in his presser that Levi was left out because of form. He needs to find some form to get a game. If Levi doesn't play, so that a t a minimum can help Wood in the ruck we will lose our first 4 or 5 games without a doubt. We have no fire power up forward with the players efforts in the second half of footy tonight.

Both those guys ahead of Graham and Buckley?

Graham is too slow when you play Cripps, Bell, Curnow etc as well and Buckley is another flyweight like Boekhorst........normally a mature ager is recruited to play first up but with Boakhorst only 75kg he is almost like a U18 kid..compare him to McIntosh who just smashed through our blokes and even won footy off Judd because of his size...
They also got good value from Taylor Hunt who isnt much talent wise but does have a seasoned body.....we never seem to get the right players who can tick every box.

Graham is too slow when you play Cripps, Bell, Curnow etc as well and Buckley is another flyweight like Boekhorst........normally a mature ager is recruited to play first up but with Boakhorst only 75kg he is almost like a U18 kid..compare him to McIntosh who just smashed through our blokes and even won footy off Judd because of his size...
They also got good value from Taylor Hunt who isnt much talent wise but does have a seasoned body.....we never seem to get the right players who can tick every box.

McIntosh weighs 90kg. No wonder he couldn't be stopped. I would get Buckley in, Armfield and find a way to get Garlett back. We have no speed with the side that played tonight.

Never trade a top 10 pick unless it's for a champion.

I think we did get one

Were you surprised, he gave away a gazillion free kicks.

Yep - I counted 4 against Jaksch, looks way too light to be playing the positions they want him to play. Nice goal in the 2nd and that was all, terrible for the rest.

Docherty & White CLEARLY our best, yeah Judd had a crack & gave us some drive, but there were 2 glaring occasions where for me there were worrying signs that father time is catching up him quicker than he'd hoped.

Don't know how I'm gonna live through what is fast shaping up as a deadset stinking season.

Based on tonight's performance, Hendo doesn't wanna be talking contract as yet & I wouldn't be offering him one anytime soon.

Murphy is officially Taylor Hunt's biatch & the less said about Bryce's game the better.......wow, head-shaking stuff.

I see no positives coming from this game at all....none, it was an unmitigated disaster in every respect.

McIntosh weighs 90kg. No wonder he couldn't be stopped. I would get Buckley in, Armfield and find a way to get Garlett back. We have no speed with the side that played tonight.

 Yep 192cm at 90kg is fair size for a winger and he isnt slow either, his disposal isnt great but he looked huge out there vs our little bodies..

Army is honest but he wont progress our club any further......

Yep 192cm at 90kg is fair size for a winger and he isnt slow either, his disposal isnt great but he looked huge out there vs our little bodies..

Army is honest but he wont progress our club any further......

armfield will be Part of the next clean out of players

I knew we had a long way to go to even be a top 8 side let alone a contender, I just didn't think we were that far behind the 8 ball. Extremely dissapointing.

Just where is this club going?

armfield will be Part of the next clean out of players

Tend to agree - he is an honest battler but not the future if we want success. He's got some mates too still on our list.

Imagine if Judd hadn't changed his mind on retiring...

Going to be a long year.   

Judd continues to carry the midfield. 

I cannot find positives.    Judd, Simo, Carazzo, Walker all nearing the end.

No doubt MM iscoaching for his career.  This half arsed attempt to turn over the side with hasbeens and
players who could not get games at oter clubs will not work.  Need to trade for Draft Picks and nothing else.

Liam Jones is lazy footballer.  Can't see him making it. 

Just where is this club going?

The question I ask now, do I even care anymore?

Tend to agree - he is an honest battler but not the future if we want success. He's got some mates too still on our list.

Armfield won't win us many games single handedly granted but he won't (ever) fly the wet, limp lettuce leaf that so may did tonight.

Sorry, but Buckley would have been a better option than Smith tonight.  Not the least that
Buckly beeds navy blue and would give his all. 

Smith was just not ready for senior footy.  Dumb move by the MC

I honestly didn't think we'd win, but still really disappointing. Disappointing to see the same old crap - don't tell me they
Need more games played together before it gels or that Daisy going out injured a minute in means crap.

Round one. Loss. Already same old same old from last year.

Depressing I spent over $1500 for our family membership this year  :'( stick fat of course, but how long is expected for the same old crap. At least in years gone by we had the zip and excitement of Yaz, Jeffy, and especially Eddie - Waitey was beautiful to watch at his best. Now there's... Nothing. Even Judd wasn't worth it tonight.

Sorry, but Buckley would have been a better option than Smith tonight.  Not the least that Buckly beeds navy blue and would give his all.

Was Buckley match-fit & ready though ??

Was Buckley match-fit & ready though ??

Pretty sure he is not injured.      Smith was not match fit. 

Was thinking.  A loss is a loss, but when you look at who could come into the side to make it better,
really clutching at straws.    We haven't even bottomed out yet.   Can see years of pain ahead.

Armfield won't win us many games single handedly granted but he won't (ever) fly the wet, limp lettuce leaf that so may did tonight.

True, I like Army and I have no doubts about his good points but we are in desperate need of more very skilled players with poise and very strong leadership qualities if we want to find success. With guys like Army, and others on our list, we will always be battling.

Our senior players went AWOL:

Gibbs - shocker
Murphy - ditto

Simmo - unsighted in the last 2.5qtrs

Jamo - bordering on spud.

Rowe - see Jamo.

Carrots - ok in patches

Judd - gun, gun & gun. Murphy and Gibbs shame on you both. #1 draft picks my right butt cheek.

Was a massive mistake making Murphy Captain - set the Club back years (at a time it couldn't afford such a f... up).

Kids went ok, mistake not playing the Bolt.

What he said.
Summed up my thoughts exactly.
Jibbs plays like a millionaire who doent want to break a fingernail.
Murph was poo.
Touhy really disappointed tonight.
Everitt no impact.

I feel ashamed and so sorry for Juddy. Our elder statesman seems to be our only player with a bit of pride.
Docherty not far behind...was good alnight.
White surprised in the centre but that was it.

other than these 3 everyone else was a dismal fail.
menzel worries me. I dont see whatever it is that everyone else sees. He's very flash in the pan for me.
Yarran sooks it up too much. Arguably our best player but has deficienies as a defender.

Sooo dissapointed. that was woeful from that group. We had no speed at all. Watched tigers simply waltze away in traffic.

Just depressing to see the same patterns emerge. Opposition teams seem to just 'know' that, if they run rampant for 20 minutes or so, we'll just fold.

So many times tonight we were caught on the hop by the rebound. There's only one reason for it - laziness. And stupidity.  Two reasons - laziness, stupidity, and a culture of individuality over team.  Ugh ... amongst the many reasons for our poor performance tonight were such things as - laziness, stupidity, a culture of individuality over team, lack of a cohesive game plan, and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.

The question I ask now, do I even care anymore?

Amen brother!!!

Was thinking.  A loss is a loss, but when you look at who could come into the side to make it better,
really clutching at straws.    We haven't even bottomed out yet.   Can see years of pain ahead.

Look at the best 22 thread. Most had 20 players in there...

So many times I was yelling at the TV 'dumb'. So many dumb plays no thought banging it long.  yep thank god we got rid of Robbo now we don't have any more dumb footballers  ::)

Just depressing to see the same patterns emerge. Opposition teams seem to just 'know' that, if they run rampant for 20 minutes or so, we'll just fold.

So many times tonight we were caught on the hop by the rebound. There's only one reason for it - laziness. And stupidity.  Two reasons - laziness, stupidity, and a culture of individuality over team.  Ugh ... amongst the many reasons for our poor performance tonight were such things as - laziness, stupidity, a culture of individuality over team, lack of a cohesive game plan, and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.

Lack of tough (however one defines that word) leaders sums it up better imo.

It's easy to be negative after a game like that. But, there are some positives!

Docherty looks like he's going to be a player and Jones will be an effective third tall, when he is played alongside Casboult and Henderson. Casboult needs to play every week.

Jaksch will be an effective third tall back when he is played as one and not given the job on the big CHF. An early Michael Sexton played third tall for years before graduating to the CHF and FF. Everett is more equipped than Jaksch to play key back right now.

Wood, Rowe, Curnow, White try but are really fairly ordinary AFL players, but good WAFL/VFL players. Ditto Matthew Watson, Ellard and Armfield. Not too sure about Graham, Bell or Boekhorst. When these guys a struggling for a game we will be on the move.

Walker, Thomas, Kreuzer, Warnock, Casboult, Buckley, Sheehan and Byrne are all either upgrades or have more upside. Let's hope Foster comes on.

Next week I'd be bringing in Casboult, Warnock, Byrne and Buckley and omitting Rowe, Wood, Curnow and Smith.


Tuohy Jamison Jaksch
Yarran Everritt Simpson
Warnock Gibbs Carazzo
Judd Murphy Cripps
Jones Henderson Menzel
Buckley Casboult Docherty

White, Bell, Byrne, Boekhorst

Everitt on Kennedy?

Yeah, right....

Mind you on Jamo and Rowe's form, i'd prefer Helen Mirren tbh.

It's easy to be negative after a game like that. But, there are some positives!

Docherty looks like he's going to be a player and Jones will be an effective third tall, when he is played alongside Casboult and Henderson. Casboult needs to play every week.

Jaksch will be an effective third tall back when he is played as one and not given the job on the big CHF. An early Michael Sexton played third tall for years before graduating to the CHF and FF. Everett is more equipped than Jaksch to play key back right now.

Wood, Rowe, Curnow, White try but are really fairly ordinary AFL players, but good WAFL/VFL players. Ditto Matthew Watson, Ellard and Armfield. Not too sure about Graham, Bell or Boekhorst. When these guys a struggling for a game we will be on the move.

Walker, Thomas, Kreuzer, Warnock, Casboult, Buckley, Sheehan and Byrne are all either upgrades or have more upside. Let's hope Foster comes on.

Next week I'd be bringing in Casboult, Warnock, Byrne and Buckley and omitting Rowe, Wood, Curnow and Smith.


Tuohy Jamison Jaksch
Yarran Everritt Simpson
Warnock Gibbs Carazzo
Judd Murphy Cripps
Jones Henderson Menzel
Buckley Casboult Docherty

White, Bell, Byrne, Boekhorst

Dont see Wood being dropped for Warnock...the latter is next to useless and Wood was reasonable vs Maric.
Buckley and Boekhorst are fair choices given we are playing in WA and need more run.....
Prefer Casboult than Warnock as well....
Agree on Foster.. he can convert which is an issue for Jones, Casboult and co
Byrne maybe needs some more VFL footy
Curnow wont get dropped especially with Priddis being such a dominant player when he plays us...
Dont see Rowe getting dropped either...but Zac Touhy is on borrowed time...

EB1

Plenty of shots fired there but truth be told, if your skipper and VC (Murph and Gibbs) look, act and play like {fill in the blanks as you please] why are any of the young blokes going to bust a gut.

Two #1 picks. Both are fails at this (advanced) stage of their careers. Ditto Kreuzer who can't even get on the park.

We seem to have done an excellent job in bringing in "third players" FMD the Hawks got Franklin and Roughead in the same draft.

The only player who is potential elite IMO is Cripps. That's pretty f#%ked up. Menzel is also high quality but apart from them Jones, Tutt, Jaksch, Smith, Everitt, and Boekhorst aren't A-graders in the making.

Hawks can lure Gunston, Lake, Burgoyne, Frawley, Hale....We can lure Liam Jones.

Dont see Wood being dropped for Warnock...the latter is next to useless and Wood was reasonable vs Maric.
Buckley and Boekhorst are fair choices given we are playing in WA and need more run.....
Prefer Casboult than Warnock as well....
Agree on Foster.. he can convert which is an issue for Jones, Casboult and co
Byrne maybe needs some more VFL footy
Curnow wont get dropped especially with Priddis being such a dominant player when he plays us...
Dont see Rowe getting dropped either...but Zac Touhy is on borrowed time...

So can't drop Wood, Curnow or Rowe? There's very limited upside with these guys, but acknowledge Curnow does tag effectively.

Agree on Tuohy.

Everitt on Kennedy?

Yeah, right....

Mind you on Jamo and Rowe's form, i'd prefer Helen Mirren tbh.

I think what I said is that Everritt is more equipped than Jaksch.

We seem to have done an excellent job in bringing in "third players" FMD the Hawks got Franklin and Roughead in the same draft.

The only player who is potential elite IMO is Cripps. That's pretty f#%ked up. Menzel is also high quality but apart from them Jones, Tutt, Jaksch, Smith, Everitt, and Boekhorst aren't A-graders in the making.

Hawks can lure Gunston, Lake, Burgoyne, Frawley, Hale....We can lure Liam Jones.

Feel free to judge young Clem on 1 game - that is pure stupidity. Everitt would get a game at most clubs ahead of guys like Rowe, Jamo; arguably Hendo on recent soft form.

EB1

Plenty of shots fired there but truth be told, if your skipper and VC (Murph and Gibbs) look, act and play like {fill in the blanks as you please] why are any of the young blokes going to bust a gut.

Two #1 picks. Both are fails at this (advanced) stage of their careers. Ditto Kreuzer who can't even get on the park.

Fly...Agree on Murphy, Gibbs and MK....have not lived up to their NO 1 pick rating......

Feel free to judge young Clem on 1 game - that is pure stupidity. Everitt would get a game at most clubs ahead of guys like Rowe, Jamo; arguably Hendo on recent soft form.

No arguments from on Everitt vs our established players but that form is still miles off elite. As for Clem,  I'm happy to be proven wrong but Malthouse has picked him ahead of Buckley and Armfield so this deserves scrutiny.

The Murphy turnover in the last was hard to watch and ended the game.

Eddy and Jeffy were quiet - unsighted, in fact.

But Cockatoo, our pick 7, looks like he might be a beauty.

No arguments from on Everitt vs our established players but that form is still miles off elite. As for Clem,  I'm happy to be proven wrong but Malthouse has picked him ahead of Buckley and Armfield so this deserves scrutiny.

Clem was a marketing selection.

3rd time lucky……

Can someone tell Bryce Gibbs to lose that Ponytail LA Real Estate magnate look on the 700k salary and looking at his property P/f rather than kicking to a 3/1 up the corridor Q2 when we are 22 points up and changing the momentum of the game after a soft defensive free>>>>what about slotting that goal from 40m instead of handing off to 2UE who luckily kicked it….wher's the leadership there?????

I know u won the Band F last year…but get a no.1 haircut and go and get the footy and play harder….I'm over you overpaid pony's


See what it's like to get a real job on 25k washing cars?….i'm over these overpaid wankers

Message to S Trigg……I've been a member for 10-30 years…saw my first GF in 1969 been OS and Interstate for 15-20 years and considering rejoining..when I see that sort of stuff served up today hard to re sign……Club wants to go 50k plus eh? sure….. I'll probably fold in as I love the club and sign up…but when these dorks like Gibbs and Boekhorst come out with ponytails on their heads with big numbers…(Gibbs yes Boeky no)I crack it….yes I can be a hypocrite as the Doormate had the headband and Brad Pearce played OK in 1995 GF win…….bt when we are playing bottom 12-16 and these blokes prance around…why should I get inspired to join the club????


Interested in your thoughts

Some of the attitude displayed in this thread is extremely naive and trigger happy. If you thought our performance was going to be a quick turn around on the back of 3 young players then you need to get a grip. Yes, we had a more productive preseason than last, but we lost our leading goal kicker last year as well as Robinson and Garlett, who were best 22.

Our core group are slow to react, have poor disposal under pressure, and are getting to the end of their career. Expect more of the same.

armfield will be Part of the next clean out of players

I don't ant Mick to be involved in the next clean out, time to give another bloke a shot.

Sorry, but Buckley would have been a better option than Smith tonight.  Not the least that
Buckly beeds navy blue and would give his all. 

Smith was just not ready for senior footy.  Dumb move by the MC

Buckley, along with Watto and Graham is clearly not one of Mick's faves.

EB1

Plenty of shots fired there but truth be told, if your skipper and VC (Murph and Gibbs) look, act and play like {fill in the blanks as you please] why are any of the young blokes going to bust a gut.

Two #1 picks. Both are fails at this (advanced) stage of their careers. Ditto Kreuzer who can't even get on the park.

I simply cannot believe Murphy slipped back into that p1ssweak mode he took so long to finally overcome. That missed tackle was smack bang in the middle of their run on. He as captain had the opportunity to make a stand and lead the way and his effort was simply pathetic. That's where you need a Robbo type to stand up and show the way, at least when it comes to hardness at the footy.

You have to question what has Mick done in three years......once again we concede multiple goals without firing a shot.

It's been a crap week to be a Carlton supporter. :(

It's been a crap week to be a Carlton supporter. :(

Pre match entertainment was good.   :P

I think we can bouncer back from this in a big way. Just need to get our run going. In that first quarter we looked like a top 4 side. We just need to learn to maintain that for 4 quarters.

Some of the attitude displayed in this thread is extremely naive and trigger happy. If you thought our performance was going to be a quick turn around on the back of 3 young players then you need to get a grip. Yes, we had a more productive preseason than last, but we lost our leading goal kicker last year as well as Robinson and Garlett, who were best 22.

Our core group are slow to react, have poor disposal under pressure, and are getting to the end of their career. Expect more of the same.

Whilst I'm not optimistic at all, there's truth in this.  Plus, we all love to hang sh*t on Ninthmond but they did win 9 games in a row at the end of last season. Most times you'll find such momentum is carried forward to the next season.  After the first q., they looked all right. They might be top 4 this year.

Did anyone see him roasting Jaksch on the boundary in the third quarter??

 

Not sure the blast worked
Shortly after that Jaksch missed an easy mark and then was very slow to follow up to the contest.
Stood back looking a bit indecisive....perhaps not wanting to make a mistake.

I watched him a bit after that...maybe it was tiredness, perhaps a bit of a dent in his confidence, and I don't want to crucify him at this early stage but he needs his second efforts to be a little better.

Just on marks....gee we dropped a lot we should have taken.

....and just want to add White was very good.
He's becoming a favourite.

 

Not sure the blast worked
Shortly after that Jaksch missed an easy mark and then was very slow to follow up to the contest.
Stood back looking a bit indecisive....perhaps not wanting to make a mistake.

I watched him a bit after that...maybe it was tiredness, perhaps a bit of a dent in his confidence, and I don't want to crucify him at this early stage but he needs his second efforts to be a little better.

Just on marks....gee we dropped a lot we should have taken.

....and just want to add White was very good.
He's becoming a favourite.

Jaksch will just have to be backed in.

Problem for the big defenders is that their mistakes tend to show... more so than a big forward

 

Not sure the blast worked
Shortly after that Jaksch missed an easy mark and then was very slow to follow up to the contest.
Stood back looking a bit indecisive....perhaps not wanting to make a mistake.

I thought we'd seen the last of that shight with Pagan. Mick hasn't the patience to work well with players any more.

Hey milkit, we GAVE AWAY Garlett, Robbo and Waite.  Pace, attitude and proven goal kicker.  Hasn't it had a wonderful effect on the playing culture and on field play?

I dont need to see anymore... We're bottom 4 stuff with a shot list and a dud coach.  This club won't be here in 5 years.

If you can't handle a bake go play badmington.

Jaksch will just have to be backed in.

Problem for the big defenders is that their mistakes tend to show... more so than a big forward

Yep
I'm not wiping him on one game.
He's young.
Just saying,there's a bit of work he needs to do.... things to work on.... before he's a quality KPP

It's funny that for a bloke who folk say "ran out of puff early" (and I'm not disputing that) that I thought Smith's last 5-10 minutes of the game were probably his best.

Our problems lie not with debutants but are deep seated in some of the big names and more established players. I don't include Judd only insofar as we are still far too heavily dependent on him. Based on last night we have got a very long and hard road ahead of us.

The question I ask now, do I even care anymore?

Gotta say, that's how I felt as I was trudging back to the car last night...went with great expectation after a "fantastic pre season"...been duped by Trigger's propaganda machine I'm afraid....

First off... FARK OFF with that LED advertising bouncing around all over the shop and superloud ad after a goal. I went to sleep and could still see bright red and blue when I closed my eyes. Not seeing a goal for 40 minutes then having that rumbling music startle you when it's dead quiet, screw that.

The good. Our first 30 minutes were outstanding I thought. Hard, running to the right spots, creating space for each other, disciplined. This was the best I've seen them play under Mick. Perhaps we've had better results but we haven't played better football.

Though Bell was a great contributor, White played his best game for us blanketing Martin, Menzel continues to show why he'll be a star and Judd still had that incredible will and never say die desire.

The bad. The rest of the game. We looked sloooooow and when the game was not on our terms we lost all will to play for each other and players ran free everywhere. Even Yarran looked off the pace.

I don't know what's happened to Murphy the once silky, zippy, evasive and skillful gun looked bogged down in mud. Injury?

Finally, really feel for Thomas. Needed and would definitely have wanted to prove the likes of me wrong and this was no way to have that opportunity taken from him.

Reading through this thread the morning after always puts me in a bad mood.

Yeah, we lost, but that does not mean we need to sack all the players, the coach and the CEO FFS. Even SOS got a bake somewhere. He joined the club after the draft/trade period!!! Seriously, get a grip!

A few things the people have focussed on which i disagree with.

1. Picking Clem Smith was the wrong thing to do.
No, it wasn't.
The sub is the perfect situation to bring in kids and give them a taste of it.
The sub is the perfect situation to play an impact player.
The sub is the perfect situation to play someone who may not be able to run out a game.

Smith ticks all those boxes. Yes, it was unfortunate we lost Thomas so early, but in 99% of the games, that won't happen.

Mick also likes to pick kids for big games and see what they can do under real pressure. 84,000 people will give Mick a great idea of what to expect from Smith. FWIW, i didn't think he was that bad.

2. Mick blamed losing daisy for the loss.
No, he didn't.
He said it caused a bit of chaos and meant we couldn't do a few things we wanted to do. In short, it meant we had to adapt and cover his loss which was going to be difficult. We don't know what he had in store for Daisy, but clearly all that went out the window. It didn't cost us the loss, but to try and suggest it was not a big deal is naive.

3. Jaksch is a wasted pick/trade already
No, he isn't.
He gave away a few free kicks, sure. Some of which he was very unlucky to get pinged for. One incident that stood out to me was when he grabbed/touched an arm as a player was getting ready to go up for a mark. It meant he couldn't get his arm up to mark it. Job done. Yes, it is a little bit illegal as these tiger ferals behind me pointed out. However, the exact same spot a quarter later when the tiger player did the same to Bell, and it wasn't called, those same tiger ferals informed everyone of how smart it was to give the arm a slight touch to throw off his timing.
Identical situations that worked against us, and Jaksch was on the wrong end of it.

On top of that, i'm not sure if it was shown on TV, but Jaksch copped a heavy hit to the ribs about halfway through and went off under duress. He came back on and dropped a mark he should've taken. Instead of chastising him for this, we should realise that he probably shouldn't have been out there and should commend him for showing ticker and putting his body on the line soon after.

Mick himself said he needs more size to really match up with the bigger blokes, but that will come.

So what did i think was the issue?
I think we lost it at the selection table which was confounded with the loss of daisy early.

1.
Not playing Casboult meant that Rowe had to play backup ruck.
Rowe playing backup ruck meant that Jaksch had to cover a key back
Jaksch is not ready for that role so it meant we had to swap our forwards around to fit him in.
Our big men never got settled and were thrown around too much to get any continuity.

2.
We went in with limited run, in part due to the injury of Walker.
Cripps wasn't going to provide it.
Bell did ok, but stamina is far from his strong point.
Gibbs wouldn't have been 100% fit after missing NAB 3 with an injury
A fit daisy was going to shoulder a fair bit of the work load, but that went out the window early.
Smith coming in for a full game threw a spanner into the works.
Yarran hurting his knee meant we lost further run.

We need to get more run in the side, how we do that will depend on who is fit for next week.

3.
We simply played terrible.
Simpson went of his nut at Curnow because he wasn't picking up a man just off the stoppage (rightfully so)
Murphy played his worst game in ages.
We missed simple shots after simple shots.
Nobody really stepped up to make a difference.


Season is far from lost, but start was far from encouraging.

Soft & insipid, that is all.

They wanted the ball more than we did and made us appear slow.
Granted, there are zones on the field where we are slow.
We need pace and intensity. Intensity. Intensity.

It's funny that for a bloke who folk say "ran out of puff early" (and I'm not disputing that) that I thought Smith's last 5-10 minutes of the game were probably his best.

It's funny for people who weren't at the ground to think they know better than the people who were. He was rooted, he couldn't physically chase anybody and it cost us. He's not up to AFL standard.

Geez Cripps disappointed me last night......moves like a bulldozer & just no impact on the game whatsoever. After his last NAB challenge game in particular, my expectations of him were extremely optimistic, needs to turnaround last's performance real quick.

Another point of irk for me last night was Clem Smith's kicking.......yikes, looks like yet another butcher to me. Yes, he wasn't alone (Bryce Gibbs, I'm looking at you), but for a young bloke looking to make his way on the big stage - FMD, most of his kicks didn't even spin like drop punts, as he sliced through the ball at point-of-contact. Had he not kicked a footy before last night? There's no excuse for that.

Yarran is diabolical in one-on-one contests, have always felt that.....but when we're bad, that part of his game gets exposed big time.

They wanted the ball more than we did and made us appear slow.
Granted, there are zones on the field where we are slow.
We need pace and intensity. Intensity. Intensity.

We continue from where we left off last year unfortunately.

They wanted the ball more than we did and made us appear slow.
Granted, there are zones on the field where we are slow.
We need pace and intensity. Intensity. Intensity.

Perfect example was Riewoldt's goal off the pack in the 3rd quarter, when the pack went up for the mark & the ball spilled, you could clearly see Jamo casually jog away from the contest, he suddenly sees Jack heading in the other direction to where the ball had dropped at pace (who would've thought a forward would be hunting the ball down deep in his forward line you dumb shiit Jamo), Riewoldt gets possession, by then Jamo realises he needs to go to where the ball actually is (i.e. in Riewoldt's hands)....which was by then way too late and bang, another goal. Nice work Jamo you stupid, lazy fek.

Losing Daisy early was a problem, I am glad it was a shoulder and not his ankle. Murphy & Gibbs disposal were poor at critical times, so was Simpson. Our set goal shots were poor as were our field kicking. the question for our coaching panel is why can't our player kick the ball. The stat that worried me at 3/4 time was that Carlton had had the ball 53% of the time yet Richmond had had 30+ more disposals. This to me means we are hanging onto the ball and not running. It was the lack of run that really concerned me. We have got two key defenders in Rowe and Jamison. Tall defenders are gold and we have two, or three if you count Hendo, why not use that base to build the team. If Casboult is unable to fulfill the second ruck and forward role, find someone else, do not rob Peter to pay Paul. The players i would be looking to next week would be Buckley, Armfield, Tutt, Graham, Byrne, players who would give us more run. I thought Clem Smith was good, I think Jaksch has potential and Jones didn't do enough. Cripps had a poor game. We need to run harder and kick the ball cleaner and we need passion from our players.

Does anyone feel it's strange that we all were happy that Rowe had a break out season last yr at CHB , so first game this year we change the structure so he is the back up ruck, so we have to restructure what was working ? I assume it was to fix the forward line & fit in Jones & Jaksch, but seems silly to change one of the few positives from last year.

We continue from where we left off last year unfortunately.

This is exactly how i felt at certain parts in the game. I was there last night like I'm sure many of you were as well. Gee it was a tough game to watch. When the game was on our terms we did really well, that being the first quarter.

As soon as the pressure was put on us we simply fell to bits. We were unable to stop the late hemorrhaging, especially as it started soon into the 2nd quarter. You could see the structure, system crumble before your very eyes. The skills just fell away in a heartbeat, and then they started with the bombing, not looking for targets and just hoping for the best.

I'm going to reserve my judgment on how we are looking after 5 rounds, to judge the team as a whole on one poo poo performance imo is a little short sighted.

I just wish i could have had a happier Easter, oh well :)

the morning after from the night before attending....

im taking the broader view...the club is still rebuilding off the field

the decisions off field will not take affect on field for 2 to 3 years

i have always maintained the position that the football on field is a direct and sole result of the process off the field.

if the process off field is wrong the product on field is awful

after sos's presser last month, l assume that we are still beefing up our recruitment and list management?

Ah, yes, I almost forgot why my winters for so many years have been just full of misery!
Was it really only last week, that euphoria of the Cricket World Cup win?
Now it's back to cringing and hiding under the furniture when Mick has to front for another post-match press stoush, following another mediocre performance.........

It's funny for people who weren't at the ground to think they know better than the people who were. He was rooted, he couldn't physically chase anybody and it cost us. He's not up to AFL standard.

Not what i said at all.....in fact i was at pains to say I didn't dispute the fact he was done.

What I said was he was more involved in the last 5-10 minutes than I can remember him  being for the rest of the game.
I wasn't defending him....just thought it funny given he was talked about as being stuffed.

As for being at the ground......
It is fine for some things like watching the positional lead up and things like chasing, and fatigue......... but watching on TV also gives you a much closer perspective of some aspects of the play than someone sitting 100 metres away would have.

I get much more from the TV than watching live these days.....but that's a personal view.

I agree on tv you get a much better view of the in close stuff but at the ground I get a much better view of Clem Smith being 20 metres behind Houli at the start of the chase and 60 metres behind by end of it. It was embarrassing.

I agree on tv you get a much better view of the in close stuff but at the ground I get a much better view of Clem Smith being 20 metres behind Houli at the start of the chase and 60 metres behind by end of it. It was embarrassing.

Yep
As i said I wasn't disputing it.....and it's obviously a fitness issue he'll need to work on.

The best way to judge these things I guess is to have the advantage of seeing the game live.... and then having a look at the replay for the more subtle, harder to see, issues.

I agree on tv you get a much better view of the in close stuff but at the ground I get a much better view of Clem Smith being 20 metres behind Houli at the start of the chase and 60 metres behind by end of it. It was embarrassing.

In terms of what happened last night, I'm sure you're right. In spite of this, that young man Smith is the least of our worries. Richmond went through him when they had the ball, but the other big issues are what we do when we have the ball (butcher it), and what we do when the ball is in dispute (sweet fa). Fix those two and Clem's youth and tank becomes such a minor factor that it's barely worth mentioning.

But your point is well made and well taken.

For me a separation based on pace is fine.  One has played less than one game the other ten years of footy. 

When you are at the ground you see the off the ball efforts.  Henderson as an example was pushing up and down the ground like a yo yo from defensive 50 to offensive 50.  The punch to Menzel was a result of one of these shuttle runs after competing at half back and then again at half forward to create that goal.

You won't see that on TV. 

Still I couldn't figure out how the Tigers had so many loose men all the time.  We had issues manning up through the corridor and until we fix that expect our boundary game plan to continue.

Can anyone who watched it live confirm that we played man on man the whole match ?

Can anyone who watched it live confirm that we played man on man the whole match ?

There is no chance of this, many many times when the tiggies had the ball they had 2 - 3 loose men to pass too. They ran harder than our blokes and made space and broke away..sadly very easily as well.

There is no chance of this, many many times when the tiggies had the ball they had 2 - 3 loose men to pass too. They ran harder than our blokes and made space and broke away..sadly very easily as well.

Thanks Michael - that's the impression I got from the broadcast. But was this due to a change in strategy, lack of fitness / fatigue, the "I can't be ar$ed" syndrome, or some combination thereof ?

Our forwards put zero pressure on their defenders. They ran the ball out of defence with ease and can do what they liked because of weight of numbers. Our midfield and defenders had no chance.

Holy moly this is going to be a painful year, I still maintain Richmond are sh1te but we are so much sh1tter. Clem Smith should have never played you have to factor in you might get an injury early and therefore is that player ready for a full game at senior level. Feel sorry for the kid but he shouldnt have been in that position.

Cripps is a real worry, is unbelievably slow live and he better turn into a clearance/inside machine or develop unbelievable footy smarts ala Mitchell or he will struggle big time. He also has a very weak kick so many of his kicks dropping short and players sprinting to meet the bounce of the ball expecting at least something of average distance.

Murph and Gibbs are a worry, Murph played his best footy as Judd's sidekick in the early years and now can't handle the heat. Where is the 16/17 yr old Gibbs that tore it up against men in the SANFL, I would be trading him for Dangerfield or something else at this stage.

No speed, no run, no energy and we play the boundary to protect ourselves which still doesnt do anything because we don't score but still get scored against. Early season frustration I know but struggle to see Mick being there next year and I would replace Murph as captain next year but there is no one else.

Our forwards put zero pressure on their defenders. They ran the ball out of defence with ease and can do what they liked because of weight of numbers. Our midfield and defenders had no chance.

Our guys are too slow, Hendo, Bell, Rowe, Gibbs, Cripps cannot catch these blokes, Jones wouldn't chase and tackle and Murphy can't stop a gnat!

Yes ...we have gone from the quickest to the slowest team in 4 years with a corresponding drop in skill....

Our forwards put zero pressure on their defenders. They ran the ball out of defence with ease and can do what they liked because of weight of numbers. Our midfield and defenders had no chance.

And yet there you were saying a couple of days ago it was a great move getting rid of Betts. Go figure.

Yes ...we have gone from the quickest to the slowest team in 4 years with a corresponding drop in skill....

This. Can't believe how badly we were chopped up on the outside.

Can anyone who watched it live confirm that we played man on man the whole match ?

They dropped an extra man in defense for large parts of the game.

And yet there you were saying a couple of days ago it was a great move getting rid of Betts. Go figure.

We didn't get rid of Betts, he left just like Dasiy left Collingwood, Buddy left the Hawks etc.

They dropped an extra man in defense for large parts of the game.

Righto - thanks kruds.

We didn't get rid of Betts, he left just like Dasiy left Collingwood, Buddy left the Hawks etc.

Pretty sure he was a RFA ie. we could keep him if we wanted to. The club signaled very early they weren't going to give him a payrise and they also planned very early to get Thomas. Regardless, you said it was a good thing he's gone and now you're complaining about forward pressure, and blaming an 18 year old first gamer for our loss.

Pretty sure he was a RFA ie. we could keep him if we wanted to. The club signaled very early they weren't going to give him a payrise and they also planned very early to get Thomas. Regardless, you said it was a good thing he's gone and now you're complaining about forward pressure, and blaming an 18 year old first gamer for our loss.

Garlett was bigger loss as far as forward pressure. Ellard is very good in this role too but appears out of favour, he is always in my best 22.

Garlett was bigger loss as far as forward pressure. Ellard is very good in this role too but appears out of favour, he is always in my best 22.

Either way we are forked in that department for this year at minimum. Tutt and Ellard are not the answer.

Maybe we need to throw Yarran down forward for this year.

Garlett Fevola Betts
Menzel Waite Robinson

Seems like a decent forward line to me with plenty of pressure and goal kicking ability (throw Walker there as well).

Garlett Fevola Betts
Menzel Waite Robinson

Seems like a decent forward line to me with plenty of pressure and goal kicking ability (throw Walker there as well).

OMG, we have given five of those six away, four of them under Mick!

OMG, we have given five of those six away, four of them under Mick!

Hey at least we have no "bad boys" anymore. How's our culture looking?

As a small aside to all this, I really hope Walks plays forward this season (when he's over his injury). Can't bear to see him playing down back - he's terrible.

Hey at least we have no "bad boys" anymore. How's our culture looking?

OMG I think I'm going to be ill.

OMG, we have given five of those six away, four of them under Mick!

and the best of the bunch was under Ratten, do you expect Mick to go clubbing with the boys to make sure they behave?

As a small aside to all this, I really hope Walks plays forward this season )when he's over his injury). Can't bear to see him playing down back - he's terrible.

Expect the stubborn one to slot him straight back down back. Anyway, I'm not sure he'll be able to regain that form from 2011, all our forwards struggle under this gameplan with slow ball movement and long bombs inside 50m.

and the best of the bunch was under Ratten, do you expect Mick to go clubbing with the boys to make sure they behave?

I don't MBB. All I know is that Mick didn't like two of them at all, Betts he wouldn't let play to his strengths. Garlett went off the rails. Did Robbo and Garlett have any history under Ratts? Serious question.

I don't MBB. All I know is that Mick didn't like two of them at all, Betts he wouldn't let play to his strengths. Garlett went off the rails. Did Robbo and Garlett have any history under Ratts? Serious question.

Ratten put a big focus on sorting out our off field stuff ups. We had regular bad press which was mostly sorted by the end of Ratten's tenure except for a flare up in 2012. Not sure Mick cared so much about that side of things and it seems some of our guys needed a short leash.

Expect the stubborn one to slot him straight back down back. Anyway, I'm not sure he'll be able to regain that form from 2011, all our forwards struggle under this gameplan with slow ball movement and long bombs inside 50m.

Fair point Chris - he is older, had injuries, and certainly lost some pace. But given that we've lost our three leading goal kickers in quick succession, and given that Mick called for a few players that can kick 20-30 goals per season in his presser, I would have thought he'd be a natural for the role. Not the solution to our woes, but certainly a step in the right direction. 

There is no chance of this, many many times when the tiggies had the ball they had 2 - 3 loose men to pass too. They ran harder than our blokes and made space and broke away..sadly very easily as well.

X2.  Stagnant all night. Too lazy to run and spread. Just keen on having stoppages etc to slow the game down. Not a great number of gut runners!

Picked the wrong team. Go back to what works, Rowe CHB, Jaksch on the 3rd whichever end he plays, Casboult in, Jones 3rd tall, which will help as He do and Casboult will get the first two defenders and get a bit more outside run.

That being so though again application and workrate let us down. We have some good enough players but without application and workrate the best of players are made to look crap. It's been our problems since 2001. The only coach who has for us playing decently with some application since then has been Ratten. Some may argue but I'll just point to the scoreboard. Haven't lost faith in Mick, as I think he's setting things up ok player-wise but we lack applicationand it hurts us.

Those bagging Jaksch after one game take a hard look at yourself. You have no idea. Big bloke, still 10kg light so will take time as you all well know. He'll be a 10yr player for us.

I don't MBB. All I know is that Mick didn't like two of them at all, Betts he wouldn't let play to his strengths. Garlett went off the rails. Did Robbo and Garlett have any history under Ratts? Serious question.

Mitch Robinson has been trouble his whole career. Garlett had girl problems and decided to hang out with Mitch. I thought they were both good players but they have to abide by team rules.

Hey at least we have no "bad boys" anymore. How's our culture looking?

Good if you like a losing culture....

Mitch Robinson has been trouble his whole career. Garlett had girl problems and decided to hang out with Mitch. I thought they were both good players but they have to abide by team rules.

Geez they were both massive for us in 2011. Robbo played two absolute ripping finals games. Garlett I had pegged as a future star.

I don't MBB. All I know is that Mick didn't like two of them at all, Betts he wouldn't let play to his strengths. Garlett went off the rails. Did Robbo and Garlett have any history under Ratts? Serious question.

Did Garlett have his personal problems under Ratts?

I think with Betts going and the three amigo's plus Robbo friendship disolving did play a part in Garlett losing interest but it wasn't not the only  or main cause. As with a lot of these things Carrot's, these things can be more complicated that what they can seem.

Either way we are forked in that department for this year at minimum. Tutt and Ellard are not the answer.

Agree...Tutt and Ellard are VFL players....we should have drafted a specialist forward pocket of which there were a few available last draft...

Geez they were both massive for us in 2011. Robbo played two absolute ripping finals games. Garlett I had pegged as a future star.

I reckon we could have won the flag in 2011 had Fev stayed, everyone was close to their peak then.

I reckon we could have won the flag in 2011 had Fev stayed, everyone was close to their peak then.

We didn't have the balls to stand up to the media, they have been running our club since 2003!

We didn't have the balls to stand up to the media, they have been running our club since 2003!

Don't want to go over too much old ground again but I'm sure the AFL wanted him out of Melbourne.

We didn't have the balls to stand up to the media, they have been running our club since 2003!

We had little choice after Swann publicly declared that one more indiscretion would get Fev the a55.

I agree MBB, the trading of Fev was where it all started to go downhill. Looking back now, you'd have to say what Ratten achieved after his loss in an increasingly difficult competition to reach the summit of was pretty damn impressive. When you think that Setanta was our FF in the 2011 finals and it could have been Fev instead you begin to realise what a bork up it was to trade him. From the loss of Fev onwards, we have effectively shot ourselves in the foot, over and over again to the point where we have almost permanently crippled ourselves with little hope of recovery.

I reckon we could have won the flag in 2011 had Fev stayed, everyone was close to their peak then.

Potentially, also if Kruezer avoided that weird foot injury he got in the last round of the season... that would have helped.

Potentially, also if Kruezer avoided that weird foot injury he got in the last round of the season... that would have helped.

Injuries are no excuse! ;)

Potentially, also if Kruezer avoided that weird foot injury he got in the last round of the season... that would have helped.

Gibbs shoulder injury in the Elimination final vs scum cost us the next week. No Waite as well.

Don't let the fact that Fev was completely off the rails and incapable of playing football in 2011 get in the way of a good story.

It's funny that for a bloke who folk say "ran out of puff early" (and I'm not disputing that) that I thought Smith's last 5-10 minutes of the game were probably his best.

Maybe Malthouse made a mistake playing him and maybe not, but how many of our draft picks have played round one over the years?
Most of them have disappeared without a trace,  give the kid a break I reckon.

Don't let the fact that Fev was completely off the rails and incapable of playing football in 2011 get in the way of a good story.

Doesn't happen if he stays with us. His trading was what made him go off the rails. IMO.

Doesn't happen if he stays with us. His trading was what made him go off the rails. IMO.

He was already off the rails.... He would have been better going to an established team like Geelong, Collingwood, or Hawthorn.

Anyway, I reckon I'll turn grey next week if we put in another performance like that.

Maybe Malthouse made a mistake playing him and maybe not, but how many of our draft picks have played round one over the years?
Most of them have disappeared without a trace,  give the kid a break I reckon.

Will be interesting to see if he gets another gig. Mick typically gives a taste and if they don't make a decent contribution they're back in the twos.

Will be interesting to see if he gets another gig. Mick typically gives a taste and if they don't make a decent contribution they're back in the twos.

Clem will be back... but maybe not next week. I'd bring tutt in to replace him. With that said. Clem wasn't meant to play the whole game.

and Boekhurst in for Daisy....

Jeez sometimes stats can be deceptive, Bell was statistically our best! :o

Does anybody agree with that stat?

The Blainester must play next week no doubt.

Jeez sometimes stats can be deceptive, Bell was statistically our best! :o

Anybody agree?

I will use those stats shamelessly to defend him later in the season  :))

Will be interesting to see if he gets another gig. Mick typically gives a taste and if they don't make a decent contribution they're back in the twos.

Thomas is gone so there's one running spot and there aren't any A graders lining up for it.
Boekhurst or Buckley I guess but nothing to get too excited about,  if they start picking Ellard again I'm off to Yemen.

Thomas is gone so there's one running spot and there aren't any A graders lining up for it.
Boekhurst or Buckley I guess but nothing to get too excited about,  if they start picking Ellard again I'm off to Yemen.

inadvisable  :D

When will we learn though. Of all teams, I reckon we must be the highest of having to ring a sub on in the first quarter. Have to be prepared, someone to have an impact but can play 120 minutes.

Richmond got there's spot on. Elite runner who can had an impact.

Jeez sometimes stats can be deceptive, Bell was statistically our best! :o

Does anybody agree with that stat?

I had him in our best 4 or 5, even when the game was shot he was still attacking.

I had him in our best 4 or 5, even when the game was shot he was still attacking.

Bell was far from our worst. Even with his mistakes and turnovers, he was more effective than most of the team.
My God, that is frightening!

I had him in our best 4 or 5, even when the game was shot he was still attacking.

So were his opponents, he nearly attacked as much as they did! ;)

Bell was far from our worst. Even with his mistakes and turnovers, he was more effective than most of the team.
My God, that is frightening!

He looks untidy but I think he's a good player in the making.

Thomas is gone so there's one running spot and there aren't any A graders lining up for it.
Boekhurst or Buckley I guess but nothing to get too excited about,  if they start picking Ellard again I'm off to Yemen.

Ellard is miles ahead of Clem at this stage.

I want to see Wiley and Buckley in next week. Wiley is a raving lunatic just like Robinson, but 10 times better as player. Goes in hard, doesn't give an inch.

Buckley is an attacking half back with great skills.

At least those two should be in.

Mick will probably give Jones another go, but his marking was terrible and he has no idea how to read the game. Even out of form as mick said, I'd prefer Casboult any day.

Ellard is miles ahead of Clem at this stage.

True,  but Clem can improve whereas Ellard is as good as he's ever going to be.
Does anyone but the most one eyed Carlton supporter truly believe that Davey would be on anyone else's list?

F*** me. We lose one game and it turns into a 'Fev was hard done by' thread.

Fev realised that he needed to leave the club why is it that nobody else can?

It really was disheartening to watch our top players, our leaders, falter and wither last night. You could tell in the Stands when the Tigers started their charge...it was palpable. Clear as daylight.

And yet our Captain, and Gibbs, where no shows. Literally.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy the excuse that he might be injured. Don't play injured players. Says a lot of our lack of depth that we have to play players in round 1 who are not altogether 100%. You watch, we'll bring back Kreuzer and he'll limp out in that game. Guaranteed.

Murphy was picked as a marketing gimmick. People need to realize that you don't automatically pick the most talented (potentially) player for the most important role. You pick on Character. Sheer bloody mindedness to put your head over anyone or anything for your Club. Not once did I see Murphy crack it with anyone. He has no presence at all. NONE. Murphy is to us what Daily was to a rampant Collingwood - Cream. When Murphy saunters near the Forward 50 he is fantastic at picking out and setting up players. Simply put, the longer the game evolves, the smaller and ineffective he becomes in the middle. He should not be in there..certainly not there if he is to be an inspiration to others while getting swatted aside. It looks pathetic.

We raised this last year, about needing more extroverted players and a leader. I don't buy into that. Some of the most effective leaders in and outside the game, inspire and lead without opening their mouths. They lead by example. Its buying into the plan and sticking to it by having faith with the Coach and Captain.

I was utterly distraught sitting there watching us make the Tigers look like a good side. I'm sorry, but they are ordinary..not top 4. If they get their, I'd be very, very surprised. Which makes our lack of pluck so sad.

Things I took out of the game last night.

1. We picked too many one paced players. We need to get Buckley, Boekhorst and Graham in. They are the future. The fact that a slow, dithering Carrots gets a game means that we are not building a side at all. He is past it. Has he ever kicked the ball within 5 seconds of receiving it and allowing the opposition to get set up? Graham needs the game time. As does Buckley.
2. Lack of Character in the playing group. I get the feeling that if we are 0-3 or worse and we are no chance of getting inside the 8, which you can pretty much lock in, that we'll get a new coach and begin a true 3-5 year rebuild. Malthouse has cleared out a lot of dead wood, I'll give him that. But I tell you what, young Boekhorst better be some player or that round 1 selection looks horrendous. Was he not played due to injury? Simply put, I'll repeat what I and others have said time and time again: Play on performance, not on seniority. If you don't play well, hello Northern Blues. ANY PLAYER. 0 Exception. That will instill some spirit and desire.
3. Malthouse needs to go. I want a rebuild, with a new coach. Get Clarkson and sign him up and let him who whatever the hell he wants. He has proven that he gets results. Can you imagine the players not performing under him. You'd soil yourself from his dressing down. Then again, the results would instill loyalty. It's time to go shopping for a new, innovative coach, who is giving a mandate to rebuild. It's up to the President and CEO to make that call and realise that we are more likely to get back to the club we were by starting fresh that we are dithering around the edges. Look at the Doggies...4-5 new kids make some difference. They are good to watch too.
4. Henderson needs to go back permanently and we need to bring back the Bolt. Hendo, as much as he wants to, is not a leading Forward...but he is bloody good in the backline. We all know it. We also need to pray for young Giles to get well..I fear that Jammo is getting to the stage where only has 1 or 2 years left. His glass shoulders don't help either.
5. I want the kids played. Literally. Stuff the senior players. Shame them. You don't play for yourself. You play for a club. You play for me and everyone on this Forum, you play for every poor bugger out there working on $15 an hour shoveling crap, every Kid, every Grandparent, every single one who has a piece of Carlton in them. Remind them of that. Buckley, Watson, Cripps, Graham, Boekhorst, Tutt, Whiley. Pump games into them. What is the point of maybe winning games with players who will not be around when next we challenge..what's the point..? None. 
6. Murphy needs to be stripped of the Captaincy. It sends a GOOD message. not a bad one. It shakes things up. He simply is not the man for the job. Don't kid yourself that things will improve with him as a pretender. Potential Captains? Only 2 of them. And no, Simmo and Carrots are not the future. So no to them.
Henderson - as CHB. Natural leader, who is also articulate in front of the camera. Also good way to retain him without selling the Ranch.
White consistently performs to his absolute potential, follows instructions and most importantly - will not step back. I like that. In fact I love that he does that. Saw him give it to Martin last night. Cheered me up.
Cripps - As a special mention. Maybe, just maybe in a couple years he will be a bonafide leader. For now, leave him be to learn as much as he can.

It has come to the stage already that I cannot see a silver lining with Malthouse and Murphy leading. We need both gone and Trigg to hire a truly inspirational new Coach with a mandate to start fresh. Trade Kreuzer, Walker, Gibbs, Murphy...do it. Do it this year. Get as many 1st and 2nd round picks and get those Mids and true Key Forward. Just don't trade Hendo nor Menzel unless its for a true Key Forward or Bontempelli like Mid. That is where we are hurting the most. The amount of times they bombed it in from the second quarter...I knew we'd loose. No plan, no inspiration on or off the field. No character. Time for Trigg to have a quiet word with replacement coaches and tell SoS to start writing his shopping list up.

Don't let the fact that Fev was completely off the rails and incapable of playing football in 2011 get in the way of a good story.

Maybe not have been if he was still in Victoria near his family. Even in 2010, injured, couldn't run, unfit, he still kicked 49 goals from 15-16 games.

Culture didn't improve getting rid of him. Off field stuff is overrated. Collingwood and West Coast had ordinary ones and won flags. On field culture is more important and we don't have that. We did well getting Henderson for Fev though from a future perspective at the time but once again we botched the draft pick that come with it. We got Lucas instead of Talia.

I want to see Wiley and Buckley in next week. Wiley is a raving lunatic just like Robinson, but 10 times better as player. Goes in hard, doesn't give an inch.

Buckley is an attacking half back with great skills.

At least those two should be in.

Mick will probably give Jones another go, but his marking was terrible and he has no idea how to read the game. Even out of form as mick said, I'd prefer Casboult any day.

Yes, yes and yes.

Jones will then be better as a 3rd tall. Be handy too when Walker comes back and can player forward. Maybe can rotate with Menzel in the midfield. Got speed, got a tank, we drafter Walker as a mid, maybe 11 years later we may actually try him there.

Maybe not have been if he was still in Victoria near his family. Even in 2010, injured, couldn't run, unfit, he still kicked 49 goals from 15-16 games.

Culture didn't improve getting rid of him. Off field stuff is overrated. Collingwood and West Coast had ordinary ones and won flags. On field culture is more important and we don't have that. We did well getting Henderson for Fev though from a future perspective at the time but once again we botched the draft pick that come with it. We got Lucas instead of Talia.

There it is folks. That is a selection from Jims Greatest Hits in a nuthsell folks.

Track 1 - Fev should not go anywhere.
A passionate song, albeit ill conceived. A pop song that got stuck in peoples heads because it had a certain ring to it. In reality there is little depth to its message and it doesn't hold up over time.

Track 2 - Lucas ahead of Talia
That old song that you thought you liked maybe once upon a time, but its been played so many times that it just $hits you up the wall everytime you hear it.

Track 3 - Goals are all that matters
The follow up to track 1. It's about here that you realise that there is very little variety between tracks. They all sound the same. Again, overplayed and overhyped lacking any real depth in its message.

Track 4 - Screw the culture
What would be considered the final part of the trilogy involving Track 1 and Track 3. Same basic tune, wrapped up in a simple catchphrase that gets stuck in your head, little depth in its message.

There it is folks. That is a selection from Jims Greatest Hits in a nuthsell folks.

Track 1 - Fev should not go anywhere.
A passionate song, albeit ill conceived. A pop song that got stuck in peoples heads because it had a certain ring to it. In reality there is little depth to its message and it doesn't hold up over time.

Track 2 - Lucas ahead of Talia
That old song that you thought you liked maybe once upon a time, but its been played so many times that it just $hits you up the wall everytime you hear it.

Track 3 - Goals are all that matters
The follow up to track 1. It's about here that you realise that there is very little variety between tracks. They all sound the same. Again, overplayed and overhyped lacking any real depth in its message.

Track 4 - Screw the culture
What would be considered the final part of the trilogy involving Track 1 and Track 3. Same basic tune, wrapped up in a simple catchphrase that gets stuck in your head, little depth in its message.

While you talk crap, I'll point to the scoreboard. Proof is there. Can't argue with facts. It's obvious i'm right on all counts. How much is the culture been helped losing Fev, Robbo, Garlett etc...none. It was all crap. You keep with the theories, I'll stick with practicalities. On-field culture hasn't changed one iota and you know it. All we've done is work our way down the ladder.

Lucas ahead of Talia, a 10yo would know what a stuff up that was so don't make a fool yourself and mention it. I was right, you were wrong. One's a gun and a Rising Star winner the other got delisted. Like you actually think we're all wrong there? No-one could be that stupid. Like really, you think you know everything but you don't live up to it. Save yourself the point scoring and admit you were wrong if you have the manhood.

So quit while you're behind. Saves making yourself look silly.

You'll look smarter deleting the post.

Funny @Kruddler that you also came in here to dispute the Fevola crap and not the 3 years invested in Malthouse and the minimal improvement we have shown.

Obviously you found not a lot of positives last night as well.

Have to admit Krud, you've been going on about this 'changing the culture' thing for a long time, and pulled it out as an excuse for each and every decent player we've lost, and the poor recruitment decision we made in getting Thomas. We're getting worse with the loss of these players, not better.

I want to see Wiley and Buckley in next week. Wiley is a raving lunatic just like Robinson, but 10 times better as player. Goes in hard, doesn't give an inch.

Whiley's on the injury list....2 weeks with an achilles tendon injury.....be lucky to get up.

Right, enough of this NAB game stuff, ready for the real stuff.
Enough of playing like we don't care, running around in second gear and MM trying players in different positions like Rowe in ruck and Jaksch up forward.
Our first game is in Perth isn't it?
What!........ Oh sh1t, its going to be loooong year ::)

Whiley's on the injury list....2 weeks with an achilles tendon injury.....be lucky to get up.

Played very well in the practice games against the Box Hill Hawks today apparently.

Mitch Robinson has been trouble his whole career. Garlett had girl problems and decided to hang out with Mitch. I thought they were both good players but they have to abide by team rules.

cannot misrepresent matters to the club.....gone..>>>

Played very well in the practice games against the Box Hill Hawks today apparently.

Silly me ...relying on the Carlton website for accurate injury information. ::)

Yep

Northern Blues FC retweeted
Cristian Filippo @C_Filippo23  ·  35m 35 minutes ago

A tough day at the office but Mark Whiley's game was a positive. 20 disposals, 8 handball receives and 2 clearances in his first game.

Culture is such an abstract thing.

It's only really evident as a factor when a side is performing well...."bloods culture etc".....I couldn't tell you the state of our culture.

I can tell you there's a lot of talk about "doing this" and "being that"......none of which seems to be translating to on-field results.

That performance last night showed no evidence of a group of guys working hard for one another, or holding a bond of any sort.

UNITED was a catchphrase last year....more hot air.

I'm not interested in hearing how things are improving anymore....I want to see things improving.

You'll look smarter deleting the post.

Maybe i should just come up with a new nickname and infiltrate the forums?

If you let your rage subside long enough to actually read my post dingbat, you'll see i'm not saying you are wrong on any or all of those statements. What i am saying is that perhaps its time to come up with something we haven't read a billion times....by '2' nicknames now.

There isn't a CFC supporter from the last 15 years that didn't like / love Fev. We all wanted him to be a star and match winner for us, and for a while he was. But his position became untenable at 2 clubs, and he was sacked from both. I can't find the quote, but i read somewhere that Fev knew he'd gone too far, and deserved to be sacked. It's also worth noting that no one on here knows the full extent of his indiscretions, so we're speculating in the absence of potentially many facts.

We all know he threw away a great gig.

EDIT : I should also add that no club went near him after he was sacked by Brissie, despite the fact that he had at least 2 good seasons in him and was willing to play for minimum wage. Clearly other clubs had seen the warning signs too.

Culture is such an abstract thing.

It's only really evident as a factor when a side is performing well...."bloods culture etc".....I couldn't tell you the state of our culture.

I can tell you there's a lot of talk about "doing this" and "being that"......none of which seems to be translating to on-field results.

That performance last night showed no evidence of a group of guys working hard for one another, or holding a bond of any sort.

UNITED was a catchphrase last year....more hot air.

I'm not interested in hearing how things are improving anymore....I want to see things improving.

This.

Funny @Kruddler that you also came in here to dispute the Fevola crap and not the 3 years invested in Malthouse and the minimal improvement we have shown.

Obviously you found not a lot of positives last night as well.

I wrote an essay about what i though about the game including a few positives. Nobody responded to that. Instead call up the same old stuff that adds little to the thread and/or site. All that stuff is well in the past and nothing we can do about any of it, no matter how right or wrong it is, makes a difference now.
I'm surprised there wasn't a "Goddard to Carlton" thrown in for good measure.

Malthouse is a work in progress as he is still at the club and can actually have a say in how things are going now. Unlike Fevola, Lucas and Talia.

I said as much in the off-season that this site would be calling for his head after R1 and i also said that it was foolhardy to do so after 1 game this year.
Nobody knows if Richmond are going to have an undefeated season and win the flag, with us coming 2nd with our only loss being to them. Nobody knows because 1 game is not a trend, it is 1 game.

Have to admit Krud, you've been going on about this 'changing the culture' thing for a long time, and pulled it out as an excuse for each and every decent player we've lost, and the poor recruitment decision we made in getting Thomas. We're getting worse with the loss of these players, not better.

In regards to the culture, 1 thing i have copped a lot of flack for is supporting White. I've used him as an example of what improving the culture around the place can do. Do what the coach asks of you. Do it to the best of your ability....whatever level of ability you have and you will be rewarded.

White was clearly one of our best last night. Playing a role that i think you chastised someone pre-game for suggesting was even possible. Do you still need a tissue or have you wiped all that egg off your face by now.

If we had more players with the heart/desire of Simon White, we'd be in a much better position.

Poor recruitment in Thomas....opinion.

I'd put him up there with White in terms of how he goes about it. Does what the coach asks of him, whatever that may be and gets rewarded because of it. If he had more than 2 minutes out on the ground, perhaps we would've seen more of that. Instead he'll have to cop a few months of unwarranted criticism until he can get back on the field and show everyone wrong.

Ironic that you have a go at me about this culture side of things, yet chastise Murphy for not being a leader. If we had a better culture and more determined players in it, he wouldn't be required to be our leader.

When I watch our team play there's one thing that certainly resonates in my pea brain, I wish some of our players would have a bit more **** (its a word I cant say but you should be able to work it out) in them. I really feel we get bullied way to easily. We should NEVER back down, NEVER take a backwards step, ALWAYS stand up for your mates. Now you probably think what is this idiot going on about, but in all seriousness there is a time and a place now for a brawl or a bit of fisty cuffs if its going to turn the match around to our advantage.

The senior players should know when this is needed by pure instinct alone and get it happening. I'd love to see it especially when we become a better team to show that we are not to be messed with.

If you are going to go down at least go down fighting imo.

Hawthorn and Sydney lost rd 1 last year, we can still make the grand final.

Hawthorn and Sydney lost rd 1 last year, we can still make the grand final.

Sydney lost to GWS of all teams.

Now if that is not proof that 1 games means SFA then i don't know what is.

Hawthorn and Sydney lost rd 1 last year, we can still make the grand final.

 :)) Things can get better and probably will but we won't be playing any grand finals

Now if that is not proof that 1 games means SFA then i don't know what is.

SFA is a bit far - each win/loss has equal value. Early rounds always throw up many interesting results but we were not a sleeping giant.

Murph and Gibbs almot lost us the game on their own with their screw ups and non-effort.

Bloody awful.

Culture is such an abstract thing.

It's only really evident as a factor when a side is performing well...."bloods culture etc".....I couldn't tell you the state of our culture.

I can tell you there's a lot of talk about "doing this" and "being that"......none of which seems to be translating to on-field results.

That performance last night showed no evidence of a group of guys working hard for one another, or holding a bond of any sort.

UNITED was a catchphrase last year....more hot air.

I'm not interested in hearing how things are improving anymore....I want to see things improving.

Spot on Lods. Plenty of words have been spoken by many people at CFC but little changed in previous years and 2015 seems destined for the same fate. I don't think MM and his coaching group are making any headway on this front. Where to from here? Very courageous decisions will be needed from the club's board and management if we don't improve significantly this year.

Murph and Gibbs almot lost us the game on their own with their screw ups and non-effort.

Bloody awful.

How many times did Murphy do a side step and pirouette and hold up play instead of moving the ball forward?

Spot on Lods. Plenty of words have been spoken by many people at CFC but little changed in previous years and 2015 seems destined for the same fate. I don't think MM and his coaching group are making any headway on this front. Where to from here? Very courageous decisions will be needed from the club's board and management if we don't improve significantly this year.

Just about the entire coaching group is out of contract at year's end... there'll be changes.

How many times did Murphy do a side step and pirouette and hold up play instead of moving the ball forward?

A few times.
As someone who's backed him against a lot of criticism, what I saw was a guy getting cheap stats and tying to look like he's contributing.

He was so bad I don't think they bothered to tag him.

Just about the entire coaching group is out of contract at year's end... there'll be changes.

Can't get rid of one without all the others.

They are all linked to Mick, with the exception of Barker and Green.

Can someone please tell me how we can run out of gas halfway through the second quarter?

Just about the entire coaching group is out of contract at year's end... there'll be changes.

My concern Baggers is can any coach change the attitudes and improve the skills of our playing group? Reading through this thread and ones like it over the past few years highlights clearly that that's where our problems lie. Changing the coaching group is only a part of the answer IMHO - we also need to look very closely at our senior players and the so-called leadership group.

That performance last night showed no evidence of a group of guys working hard for one another, or holding a bond of any sort.

I disagree, I think the players worked their guts out and went hard for each other.
Our problem is simply a lack of sufficient numbers of skilled players and has been for more than a decade.

Can't get rid of one without all the others.

They are all linked to Mick, with the exception of Barker and Green.

Can someone please tell me how we can run out of gas halfway through the second quarter?

An interesting question, especially when you remember that the Pies were much better in this area than we are when Buttifant was there?? They were a hard running, hard competing team even if lacking polish in some areas.

at trainings flip it so some of the junior boys or lesser like are barking orders at the senior guys.
Let a few the second tier players control precedings and the seniors just have to cop it.
It's like evryone can see what the leaders are doing wrong during game time but no-one wants to say boo for fear of repercussions.

Can't get rid of one without all the others.

They are all linked to Mick, with the exception of Barker and Green.

Can someone please tell me how we can run out of gas halfway through the second quarter?

Judd could only carry us for 45 minutes this time, he ran out of steam, no one stepped up to fill the breach.

at trainings flip it so some of the junior boys or lesser like are barking orders at the senior guys.
Let a few the second tier players control precedings and the seniors just have to cop it.
It's like evryone can see what the leaders are doing wrong during game time but no-one wants to say boo for fear of repercussions.

i am over Jamison Carrozzo Murphy Simpson Gibbs ...these blokes are leaders of losing clubs ..they have no success to set an example for the juniors that come into PP

when the heat was on last night, they went back to their old habits of side kicks on the side, soft attempts etc..they have all been poorly developed at the last 10 years at PP

we need a massive recruitment and development drive under SOS...I will be more than happy to move the above blokes for a trade

as for kruezer, unfortunately, I see him cooked...

I disagree, I think the players worked their guts out and went hard for each other.
Our problem is simply a lack of sufficient numbers of skilled players and has been for more than a decade.

Maybe the ease with which they waltzed through us on a number of occasions clouded my judgement....I just saw it as not many concerned with blocking for or supporting their teammates.

It's also a strength thing, I guess, and the tackling was pretty wimpish I'm afraid.

watch carefully last night ...Simpson kicked poorly on numerous occasions into the corridor..missed his target (as per usual) tigers get a goal

Did you see Simpson pulling Curnow into line?

Curnow was stuffed and walking behind play. Simpson went off his nut to get him to go man someone up. Curnow fired back and it was on. Both yelling pointing and gesturing. In the end Curnow went and did as he was told and manned up a lose Tigers forward long enough for someone to come down so he could switch out.

Had Simmo not demanded Curnow do that, they may have got a goal out of it as there was a spare man inside 50.
Without the leadership of Simmo, we would've been further behind.

Did you see Simpson pulling Curnow into line?

Curnow was stuffed and walking behind play. Simpson went off his nut to get him to go man someone up. Curnow fired back and it was on. Both yelling pointing and gesturing. In the end Curnow went and did as he was told and manned up a lose Tigers forward long enough for someone to come down so he could switch out.

Had Simmo not demanded Curnow do that, they may have got a goal out of it as there was a spare man inside 50.
Without the leadership of Simmo, we would've been further behind.

yes i did. Unfortunately I cant see simpson as a leader- he doesn't have the physical presence of a selwood or a hodge to lead the pack of men

his skills are limited with left foot and an average one

his endeavour is  1st class but he is not the complete leader we need

yes i did. Unfortunately I cant see simpson as a leader- he doesn't have the physical presence of a selwood or a hodge to lead the pack of men

his skills are limited with left foot and an average one

his endeavour is  1st class but he is not the complete leader we need

Since when does a leader need to be 'complete'?

Maxwell was the captain of a premiership side. Talk about average.

Leadership has nothing to do with how well you can kick a football.

yes i did. Unfortunately I cant see simpson as a leader- he doesn't have the physical presence of a selwood or a hodge to lead the pack of men

his skills are limited with left foot and an average one

his endeavour is  1st class but he is not the complete leader we need

Aren't you the guy who bitched and moaned all preseason about this place being the non carlton supporters club?

Since when does a leader need to be 'complete'?

Maxwell was the captain of a premiership side. Talk about average.

Leadership has nothing to do with how well you can kick a football.

my filth mates rate Maxwell as one of the the best Collingwood captains

maxwell kicks better than simpson

leadership has everything to do with all aspects of football - how can a leader say ""do as I say not as I do" if his kicking is awful?

Aren't you the guy who bitched and moaned all preseason about this place being the non carlton supporters club?

are u trolling me :)

if we are going to win a premiership, we need to be brutally honest

Fair bit of disappointment here and it is understandable but there are a few things that are positive.

Firstly, given the dominance of Richmond the result was only a few goals, suggesting we did manage to hold them up a bit. It was no blowout.

Second, the performance of Docherty was great to see, and matched the promise he has shown. He had poise and made good decisions, as well as taking some fine marks. Bell, who has been oft criticised played a very good game. He worked very hard and made some good decisions. Yes he had a couple of howlers, but so do all players under pressure. He has not played a lot of footy but is getting better each time he runs out.

Some of our senior players had shockers and will turn it around. The likes of Clem Smith got a taste of what is required so will have much to work with.  They are still sorting out KPP and where they are suited and this will mean some switching around week to week. I doubt that Jones,  Henderson and Casboult can all play together in many games but it will take a little while to work out what is best.

The obvious issue is creating scoring opportunities, but this was apparent preseason.  It will get better as they play together, and is I suspect more a function of some midfield issues and poor kicking inside 50.

I may be barking up the wrong tree, as I was watching the game on TV with two kids jumping on me, but it was not a terrible loss.

And it is only round one, plenty more to go.

^^

It wasn't good to lose for sure but it was the nature of the loss that's made people so angry.

I could cop a loss.... but for us to be twelve months down the track and not seeming to have improved in any area....that's what I find hard to accept.

Maybe the ease with which they waltzed through us on a number of occasions clouded my judgement....I just saw it as not many concerned with blocking for or supporting their teammates.

It's also a strength thing, I guess, and the tackling was pretty wimpish I'm afraid.

We have very few genuinely tough players, not that any of them take backwards steps.
There's no Byron Pickett in our ranks, someone who makes people look sideways,  as such we need to rely on skills which in the main we don't possess.

^^

It wasn't good to lose for sure but it was the nature of the loss that's made people so angry.

It looked remarkably like a few of the losses we had in Malthouses first year.

It looked remarkably like a few of the losses we had in Malthouses first year.

Losses rarely look much better, but I honestly don't know where people thought the improvement would come from this season.
We lost Waite, Robinson, Garlett,  Scotland and McLean and replaced them with rookies, state league players and marginal players at low sides, it was never going to be pretty.

I could cop a loss.... but for us to be twelve months down the track and not seeming to have improved in any area....that's what I find hard to accept.

Even say the loss was worse than last year, and the the year before that.

Even say the loss was worse than last year, and the the year before that.

We so used to own Richmond in round 1.

my filth mates rate Maxwell as one of the the best Collingwood captains

maxwell kicks better than simpson

leadership has everything to do with all aspects of football - how can a leader say ""do as I say not as I do" if his kicking is awful?

Thats my point, Maxwell is one of the better captains, yet he is an average footballer.

There was all sorts of conversations about dropping their captain as he was playing that bad.

I'm not going to argue semantics about kicking ability, but i'm sure you will agree that Maxwell was far from thier best player, maybe not even top 10, yet was a great captain. So leadership is not about footballing ability, but more about - as you said - how you go about it.

You underrate Maxwell he was a great defender. At his peak he was AA.

It looked remarkably like a few of the losses we had in Malthouses first year.

His list changes have bought him time but with the same performances two years down the track.....meh. Still, we could come out next week and win with Murph and Gibbs starring and go on to play finals football. That's why I said I was willing to give him three rounds. I think we should have a fair idea by then.

We so used to own Richmond in round 1.

I dislike the new 'quoting' change that has happened here so this was supposed to be to you and shadesy...

But do you guys realise that like it or not, Richmond has improved over the same period.

Do you guys believe that the result does not dictate the whole season? You seem to think season over already.

You underrate Maxwell he was a great defender. At his peak he was AA.

...and i don't think he deserved that, but thats beside the point. His numbers that year are far better than any other and he became a liability late in his career.
You'd still put him behind Pendles, Swan, Cloke...and then we start splitting hairs.

Simmo is a B+F winner and represented his country. He's no slouch.

As I said, I thought our first quarter produced our best football under Mick. At the ground, it was very clear the structural improvements and how well we were working for and with each othet. That's something to build off, stopping the lapses in concentration that allow players to stream everywhere would help our cause infinitely.

Our first-ever game under Mick was a closer result but I thought we actually played worse that night. Maybe it's just been too long since last season and I'm going soft ;D

Geelong owns Hawthorn at Easter but Hawthorn own them in September.

Nick Maxwell = Tom Harley= Good Captain= Average footballers....both were made captain because they were non factional within their clubs and all the different groups
on their respective lists respected them...

While it looks very much like every other year suppose one waits to see if it's a bad one with improvement coming or the same of crap. Often sides play more like they're ready in round one than others. Hence round 2 is often the toughest to tip as we think we're tipping on form. Then sides, with a game under their belt, look alot better. North haven't won a round one clash since 2009, and that was against Melbourne. Swans got run over by GWS in round one last year. First round often throw up interesting results.

While it looks like "same crap, different year" i'll wait a tad longer to see just in case.

Kruddler, the season is far from over, but like Lod's said, it's the same stuff different year. If you saw anything different from last night than that's great. I saw us get to a 4 goals lead and not kick a goal until the end of the third quarter.

We are no where near a top 8 side, and I see a worse team than 3 years ago.

We had no excuses last night. Injury free pre season, full list, experienced team, mediocre side... Was just deflating. You said yourself you have no idea why we would be bottom 6 like most experts expected... I can you we are way closer to bottom 6 than top 6.

I'll be there at Subi next week, but I am beyond any expectations.

While it looks like "same crap, different year" i'll wait a tad longer to see just in case.

Last year we were 0-4, if we're 0-4 this year it's going to be ugly (think we'll be 1-3 so it will still be a heated start to the season)

Kruddler, the season is far from over, but like Lod's said, it's the same stuff different year. If you saw anything different from last night than that's great. I saw us get to a 4 goals lead and not kick a goal until the end of the third quarter.

We are no where near a top 8 side, and I see a worse team than 3 years ago.

We had no excuses last night. Injury free pre season, full list, experienced team, mediocre side... Was just deflating. You said yourself you have no idea why we would be bottom 6 like most experts expected... I can you we are way closer to bottom 6 than top 6.

I'll be there at Subi next week, but I am beyond any expectations.

I was there last night and I agree with your summary 100%. We were ordinary when challenged last night losing all semblence of structure and we will face far sterner tests than Richmond during the season.

^^

I'm not saying we were pretty, but i think there were things from last night that can be fixed.

We played 3 blokes who have never played for the club before. Jones, Jaksch and Smith. 2 of them being key parts of our structure. Sure, things didn't work out ideally. It's nothing we cannot overcome though.

As many have said, and i have too, Jones was recruited as a 3rd tall. Why not play him as that and bring in Casboult....which would allow Rowe to stay at CHB and keep some stability back there.

I think the main thing to take away from the team side of things is that perhaps we need more structures and less flexibility.

If we see the same results over the next couple of weeks, then we might be in a bit deeper.
I'll give the match committee a chance to correct the mistake first.

^^

I think the main thing to take away from the team side of things is that perhaps we need more structures and less flexibility.

That would be the wisest of wise words spoken Kruddles. The old KISS process, Keep It Simple Stupid! ;)

We need structure in our forward line, I think I counted 4 times when 3 of our guys all flew for the same ball and spoiled each other. They all nedd direction on which direction to lead and then the guys need to honor those leads. Just saying.... it works for other teams why not ours :o

BluePhantom, I noticed the same. All the talls in the forward 50m trying to mark the same ball. I don't like what I saw in the game against the Tigers. I was worried we could have been beaten by a greater margin, and probably should have.

Whiley's on the injury list....2 weeks with an achilles tendon injury.....be lucky to get up.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-04-03/carlton-recruits-strut-stuff-in-vfl-hitout (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-04-03/carlton-recruits-strut-stuff-in-vfl-hitout)

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-04-03/carlton-recruits-strut-stuff-in-vfl-hitout (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-04-03/carlton-recruits-strut-stuff-in-vfl-hitout)

Yep
We've already established that the CFC/AFL injury site is a useless piece of information

Bryce Gibbs    Shoulder    Test
Cameron Giles    Foot    Indefinite
Matthew Kreuzer    Foot    3 weeks
Ciaran Sheehan    groin    1-2 weeks
Andrew Walker    Knee    2 weeks
Robert Warnock    Shoulder    Test
Mark Whiley    Achilles tendon    2 weeks
Updated: Monday, March 31

That was a very disappointing game and it has taken me a while to get to the point where I can put my thoughts down in a relatively calm manner.

I heard the first quarter on ABC radio and had the benefit of Parko’s and Brad Sewell’s insights.  I got home just after quarter time and watched the rest of the game on Channel 7.  I didn’t pay a lot of attention to the commentators.  I also watched Malthouse’s press conference and some of his comments/responses were enlightening.

So, what did I learn?

It’s a cliché but bad kicking is bad football.  Parko reckoned we should have kicked another five goals in the first quarter after dominating the play and inside 50s.  Who am I to argue with Parko and, if we were seven goals up at quarter time, it would be hard to see Richmond getting back into the game.

Jaksch is not a key position player and Malthouse made it clear that he is well aware of that.  Why he was played on Griffiths in the first quarter is a bit of a mystery.  He has potential as a third tall at either end and hopefully the coach will give him appropriate match ups.

Sewell’s comments about Jones were interesting.  Clearly Hawthorn do not rate Jones at all because of his propensity for basic skill errors and tendency to drift out of the game.  Sewell said that Jones could be an outstanding key forward if he could consistently play at his best.  To me, he is far too one-dimensional to be a genuine key forward and I don’t think he is mobile enough to play as a third tall.  One mark from a key forward is deplorable.

That brings me to the forward structure or, more correctly, lack of structure.  Some folk have been critical of the delivery to the forwards but it seemed to me that the problem with the forward line was threefold:  (1) out of form or inadequate players, (2) lack of defensive pressure inside the forward 50, and (3) forwards who don’t make position to receive the ball.  I should add that Richmond’s tactic of having two players behind the ball meant that our rebounds from defence were cut off more often than not.  While the forwards should have been instructed stay with those two players, it should have been obvious to them and they should have had the initiative to do so – unless that’s against team rules.

White’s game on Martin was a highlight, although Martin did pick up some cheap possessions later in the game.  A little of White’s fitness, hardness, positioning and determination distributed among our playing group wouldn’t go astray.  I’m glad I was listening on radio when Deledio crunched White.  I was at the game when he had his neck vertebra fractured and it was a similar incident.

Smith certainly got dropped in at the deep end and, while he wasn’t quite up to the task at times, he showed enough to suggest that he will be a regular player.  Fitness is clearly an issue and that affected his execution at times.  Malthouse admitted that Smith was expected to play a quarter and coming on after the first minute tested his fitness.  I was pleased to see Smith make the 22 and, in the normal course of events, coming on as the sub would have been an ideal introduction to AFL for him.  However, having an unfit player as the sub is a sure fire way of conjuring up an early serious injury.

That brings me to Thomas and all I can say is what a disaster!  Even if Thomas hasn’t actually set the world on fire as a player, he is a big personality at the club and his loss would have had a huge impact on the players.  That’s not to mention the impact on midfield rotations when we already had fewer players in our midfield rotations than the Tigers.   I should also say that Malthouse’s response to Damian Barrett’s question about the impact of Thomas’s injury was pathetic and embarrassing.

Bell was good and I think he is just going to continue to improve.  Before those that continue to bleat about his use of the ball blow a gasket, his disposal efficiency was just above the team average.  While he could and should use the ball better, there were times when the lack of forward structure meant he had no option but to kick and hope.  What Bell needs is to continue to play alongside Judd and for a few of his team mates to step up.

Judd was great but he no longer gets the preferential treatment from the umpires that he enjoyed as a Weagle.  The Channel 7 blokes were full of praise for McIntosh winning a one on one with Judd when he clearly grabbed Judd’s arm and slung him out of the contest.  Judd has regained his ability to burn off opponents but one has to wonder how long he will go on if our performances don’t dramatically improve.

Wood was pretty good against Maric but he needed some decent support.  I hope Rowe never has to go from key defender to ruck again.  That has to be one of the most puzzling moves by any Carlton coach in my memory.  Rowe needs to be able to settle in to his role, although I don’t mind him going forward in a swap for Henderson if absolutely necessary.

Docherty has picked up from where he left off last season and his performance was a shining light.  With a full pre-season under his belt, the Doc should have a great season.

Yes, we had a few players who were underdone, losing Thomas early hurt us, and some of the MC’s selection decisions backfired.  However, the big issue for me is that we lack the structures to shut down an opposition and to create scoring opportunities.  Even with a few players down on form, we should be able to stop a team like Richmond moving and carrying the ball as they did.

What Bell needs is to continue to play alongside Judd and for a few of his team mates to step up.

FMD, Bell couldn't keep up with him to play alongside! :D

Bell got most of his stats at the end of the game when the pace started to drop off and the best we could do was the odd leveller after Nthmond went into cruise mode. Before that he looked like he was running backwards as opponents passed him by!

MMs been there three years, and later this season he will start saying we need to inject some pace and aggression to fix the deficiencies, we will be recruiting blokes like Robbo and Garlett! Let me sell you a ticket to the Merry-Go-Round!

Anyone else find it worrying that the NB's lost to Box Hill with 16 AFL listed players , and they had none? Not a lot to rejoice about this weekend

Bell got most of his stats at the end of the game when the pace started to drop off and the best we could do was the odd leveller after Nthmond went into cruise mode. Before that he looked like he was running backwards as opponents passed him by!

We'll have to agree to disagree LP, Bell was consistent across the three quarters I saw and he got more than his share of favourable comments from the ABC commentators in the first quarter.  He also managed to not only keep up with opponents but tackled more of them than any of his team mates.

I have tried to avoid focusing on the coach, but Merry Go Round isn't far off the mark  :(

Anyone else find it worrying that the NB's lost to Box Hill with 16 AFL listed players , and they had none? Not a lot to rejoice about this weekend

Not really.  Box Hill are run by Hawthorn and ergo are picking up good habits from a club that has won more premirships recently than i have seen in my lifetime.  Im 32. 

Plus those 16 AFL players are not exactly stars of the comp.  you would struggle to count 200 games between them.

MMs been there three years, and later this season he will start saying we need to inject some pace and aggression to fix the deficiencies, we will be recruiting blokes like Robbo and Garlett! Let me sell you a ticket to the Merry-Go-Round!

Some of your best ever work LP. :))

Not really.  Box Hill are run by Hawthorn and ergo are picking up good habits from a club that has won more premirships recently than i have seen in my lifetime.  Im 32. 

Plus those 16 AFL players are not exactly stars of the comp.  you would struggle to count 200 games between them.

I live next to Box Hill oval and often watch the Hawks training.  While they train with an intensity that reflects Hawthorn's style, it is still a VFL side with a similar relationship to Hawthorn as the Northern Blues have with Carlton - and perhaps that supports your point Thry.

Regardless of the number of games played, our AFL listed players have been drafted because they are meant to be in the top echelon of footballers.  None of the players who represented the Box Hill Hawks are good enough to be drafted and, with the possible exception of their strength and maturity, should not have an edge over our players.  Of course, how they are coached could be a significant factor, and I suspect that it was. 

Certainly sounds like we still have problems with our player development. Another area where we don't seem to have moved forward?

I live next to Box Hill oval and often watch the Hawks training.  While they train with an intensity that reflects Hawthorn's style, it is still a VFL side with a similar relationship to Hawthorn as the Northern Blues have with Carlton - and perhaps that supports your point Thry.

Regardless of the number of games played, our AFL listed players have been drafted because they are meant to be in the top echelon of footballers.  None of the players who represented the Box Hill Hawks are good enough to be drafted and, with the possible exception of their strength and maturity, should not have an edge over our players.  Of course, how they are coached could be a significant factor, and I suspect that it was.

Ed Curnow won a B+F with Box Hill after playing onky thirteen games with them due to a broken leg.  Became a walkup starter for us, despite what our recruits are supposed to be.

None of our recruits have shown that type of form at VFL level, so id almost be willing to just recruit VFL known quantities until we can prove we have tge ability to spot talent from the draft.

Certainly sounds like we still have problems with our player development. Another area where we don't seem to have moved forward?

We haven't moved forward because we haven't moved Luke Webster on, we seen little progress and he's been there a long time!

Stuffed if I know how the hell he still has a job, in my opinion his results are very, very ordinary and he comes across to me as a finger pointer. That won't help players develop at all! ;)

We haven't moved forward because we haven't moved Luke Webster on, we seen little progress and he been there a long time!

Stuffed if I know how the hell he still has a job, in my opinion his results are very, very ordinary and he comes across to me as a finger pointer. That won't help players develop at all! ;)

I have no faith in him either.

Certainly shows there are deeper problems, doesn't matter if we have the best coaches ( jury is still out on this) if we don't have the right raw players , hard to mould them into future players. Shows our depth is a long way behind the competition leaders

Shows our depth is a long way behind the competition leaders

This week we'll probably replace Thomas with David Ellard, Denis Armfield or a first gamer in Boekhurst, our depth is almost non existent.

Yes sad , for round two, and we are out of new options. I like Armfield & Ellard, but they have have time to consolidate a spot, but not a big part of the future

You play your best team this early in the season, if that's Ellard and and Armfield then so be it. Don't play guys who aren't up to it until they earn it.

Well......this was predicatable.  One loss = 20 pages and counting.
What's the old saying ? "There's no news like bad news"

I'll make sure to come back 2 days after our first win & see how many pages we're up to.

Well......this was predicatable.  One loss = 20 pages and counting.
What's the old saying ? "There's no news like bad news"

I'll make sure to come back 2 days after our first win & see how many pages we're up to.

You'll probably get 3 or 4.
Nothing peculiar about that.
Nothing wrong with it.
When things go well there's little to highlight but the good points.
Football forums work on the basis of argument and different points of view....that's much  more obvious after a negative result and therefore will always generate ( a great deal) more discussion.

We haven't moved forward because we haven't moved Luke Webster on, we seen little progress and he's been there a long time!

Stuffed if I know how the hell he still has a job, in my opinion his results are very, very ordinary and he comes across to me as a finger pointer. That won't help players develop at all! ;)

x2 and some karma your way LP....the sitcom Webster would have more idea than our version....

Ed Curnow won a B+F with Box Hill after playing onky thirteen games with them due to a broken leg.  Became a walkup starter for us, despite what our recruits are supposed to be.

None of our recruits have shown that type of form at VFL level, so id almost be willing to just recruit VFL known quantities until we can prove we have tge ability to spot talent from the draft.

Curnow was rookied Thry, and we are probably the most successful club at getting value from our rookies.  It's a bit of a puzzle why we can't get the same success from our draft picks, or trades for that matter.

3. Jaksch is a wasted pick/trade already
No, he isn't.
He gave away a few free kicks, sure. Some of which he was very unlucky to get pinged for. One incident that stood out to me was when he grabbed/touched an arm as a player was getting ready to go up for a mark. It meant he couldn't get his arm up to mark it. Job done. Yes, it is a little bit illegal as these tiger ferals behind me pointed out. However, the exact same spot a quarter later when the tiger player did the same to Bell, and it wasn't called, those same tiger ferals informed everyone of how smart it was to give the arm a slight touch to throw off his timing.
Identical situations that worked against us, and Jaksch was on the wrong end of it.

On top of that, i'm not sure if it was shown on TV, but Jaksch copped a heavy hit to the ribs about halfway through and went off under duress. He came back on and dropped a mark he should've taken. Instead of chastising him for this, we should realise that he probably shouldn't have been out there and should commend him for showing ticker and putting his body on the line soon after.

Mick himself said he needs more size to really match up with the bigger blokes, but that will come.

Seems everyone either chose to ignore this or overlooked it.

From Carltons twitter account...

After reporting discomfort to club staff, scans have confirmed @KristianJaksch has two broken ribs. He'll miss two matches. #NAVYBLUES

I think many people on here owe him an apology.

Easy on Ellard - he has had an injury plagued career as any.

Knows where the goals are does Davey and he's got serious ticker.

He will surprise many if he gets a decent crack in the 1s......

Seems everyone either chose to ignore this or overlooked it.

From Carltons twitter account...
I think many people on here owe him an apology.

I think that it is the coach who owes him an apology.

Malthouse, in his press conference, acknowledged that Jaksch is too light to play as a key defender but he was matched up against Griffiths. 

Jaksch is the one addition to our list who has shown a bit during the NAB Challenge and his performance on Thursday was pretty good - without considering his broken ribs. 

Easy on Ellard - he has had an injury plagued career as any.

Knows where the goals are does Davey and he's got serious ticker.

He will surprise many if he gets a decent crack in the 1s......

No one would disagree with you... put his heart in any bigger bloke and you've got a champ. Davey should sue his parents for putting him in a small, ill equipped for AFL body.

Easy on Ellard - he has had an injury plagued career as any.

Knows where the goals are does Davey and he's got serious ticker.

He will surprise many if he gets a decent crack in the 1s......

He obviously does all the right things off the track and has had a bit of bad luck along the journey otherwise he wouldn't still be there. And you're right he is deadly around goals but he needs to break in and have a good crack this year.

Seems everyone either chose to ignore this or overlooked it.

From Carltons twitter account...
I think many people on here owe him an apology.

I criticised him for the particular piece of play where he dropped the mark and the follow up and pointed out that his second efforts had to be better than that.
I don't feel the need to apologise for that because it was obvious it wasn't up to scratch.

The fact that he was injured puts a completely different perspective on it.... but the judgement was made on the basis of what you'd expect of a fit footballer.

You can only make calls on what you know.
Every poor piece of play on the field could be the result of being inconvenienced by an injury.
You don't apologise for that...you just accept the reason once it becomes clear.

I think that it is the coach who owes him an apology.

Malthouse, in his press conference, acknowledged that Jaksch is too light to play as a key defender but he was matched up against Griffiths. 

Jaksch is the one addition to our list who has shown a bit during the NAB Challenge and his performance on Thursday was pretty good - without considering his broken ribs.

He didn't break his ribs against Griffiths, what Malthouse said is true.
Why does he need to apologise?

He didn't break his ribs against Griffiths, what Malthouse said is true.
Why does he need to apologise?

Malthouse in his press conference said that he knew that Jaksch was far too light (10kgs from memory) for a key position role.  Despite that, Jaksch was played as a key defender during the NAB challenge and started off as a key defender on Thursday.  Clearly, Malthouse played Jaksch out of position and an apology from Malthouse for that is far more appropriate than apologies from a few CSC posters who may have been critical of Jaksch's performance.

He didn't break his ribs against Griffiths, what Malthouse said is true.
Why does he need to apologise?

When did he break them and why was he playing?

Curnow was rookied Thry, and we are probably the most successful club at getting value from our rookies.  It's a bit of a puzzle why we can't get the same success from our draft picks, or trades for that matter.

Because we can't handle big personalities......we like bland people. Hence we give away players with character for not too much.

When did he break them and why was he playing?

There was a collision about halfway through the second or third quarter where it happened.

When did he break them and why was he playing?

There was a one on one collision about halfway through the game. Can't remember exactly how it happened, but it involvd players coming from opposite directions. May have been a shepherd.

Why was he playing? We had no sub as Daisy was gone in the first minute. He could've sat on the bench for the rest of the game and left us a player down, or he could tough it out.

There was a one on one collision about halfway through the game. Can't remember exactly how it happened, but it involvd players coming from opposite directions. May have been a shepherd.

Why was he playing? We had no sub as Daisy was gone in the first minute. He could've sat on the bench for the rest of the game and left us a player down, or he could tough it out.

I think you are distracting from the fact that people want a whipping boy.

(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnspf52zQl1qj6sk2o1_r2_500.gif)

Malthouse in his press conference said that he knew that Jaksch was far too light (10kgs from memory) for a key position role.  Despite that, Jaksch was played as a key defender during the NAB challenge and started off as a key defender on Thursday.  Clearly, Malthouse played Jaksch out of position and an apology from Malthouse for that is far more appropriate than apologies from a few CSC posters who may have been critical of Jaksch's performance.

I've heard the press conference and know what you are talking about.

What i am saying is that being played out of position in no way contributed to the injury he received.

Yes, he is too light on for a key role. He was given the chance to step up and see how he went. I don't think you'll hear Jaksch complaining about the opportunity despite the fact he is too light for the role.

Mick is known for giving kids a chance. The reason its called giving kids a chance is because they are KIDS and thus not physically ready enough to play that role. Otherwise its not called giving kids a go, its called picking players.

There are so many anti-Mick comments going around here, how we arrive at them has me shaking my head.

I've heard the press conference and know what you are talking about.

What i am saying is that being played out of position in no way contributed to the injury he received.

Yes, he is too light on for a key role. He was given the chance to step up and see how he went. I don't think you'll hear Jaksch complaining about the opportunity despite the fact he is too light for the role.

Mick is known for giving kids a chance. The reason its called giving kids a chance is because they are KIDS and thus not physically ready enough to play that role. Otherwise its not called giving kids a go, its called picking players.

There are so many anti-Mick comments going around here, how we arrive at them has me shaking my head.

Wouldn't it have been better to play Jaksch as third tall, particularly when he has shown that he is not yet up to taking on a key forward?  He did quite well in the third tall role, particularly with busted ribs.

I think there is a big difference between 'giving a kid a chance' and playing a kid out of position.

Questioning the coach's decisions, particularly after a loss, is part of being a football supporter.  For some, blindly accepting everything the coach does is also part of being a football supporter.

They underated Griffiths and thought he was a banana that Jaksch could run off....Griffths played out of the square and Reiwoltd played up the ground more....if you have seen how Jaksch plays he prefers being up the ground across half back where he can use his athletic abilities and rebound the ball....
It wasnt great coaching......Rowe should have played on Griffiths....bigger, stronger and was coming off a great 2014 playing a similar role...it was a no brainer.

They underated Griffiths and thought he was a banana that Jaksch could run off....Griffths played out of the square and Reiwoltd played up the ground more....if you have seen how Jaksch plays he prefers being up the ground across half back where he can use his athletic abilities and rebound the ball....
It wasnt great coaching......Rowe should have played on Griffiths....bigger, stronger and was coming off a great 2014 playing a similar role...it was a no brainer.

How does that happen EB?

Parko, in his pre-match discussion, said that he rated Griffiths higher than Vickery and Riewoldt.  Surely our opposition analysis can't be that far off the mark.

How does that happen EB?

Parko, in his pre-match discussion, said that he rated Griffiths higher than Vickery and Riewoldt.  Surely our opposition analysis can't be that far off the mark.

Most of what we have done over the past decade had been off the mark DJ :(...nothing surprises me anymore....
I guess Griffiths has promised plenty but never delivered until now.....

Wouldn't it have been better to play Jaksch as third tall, particularly when he has shown that he is not yet up to taking on a key forward?  He did quite well in the third tall role, particularly with busted ribs.

I think there is a big difference between 'giving a kid a chance' and playing a kid out of position.

Questioning the coach's decisions, particularly after a loss, is part of being a football supporter.  For some, blindly accepting everything the coach does is also part of being a football supporter.

I've said that we stuffed up by having Rowe play as 2nd ruck coming out of defense which forced the Jaksch issue.

As has been mentioned he was played as a 3rd tall of sorts who was designated to run off his opponent. Essentially playing him on a spud and boosting his confidence. Apparantly the spud learned how to play which didn't help the situation.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree by saying Malthouse screwed up by playing Jaksch. He may have went in with a plan that didn't end up working, but you an say that for probably 18 teams on a weekly basis.

The kid showed more in that game then most of our list have shown in years.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree by saying Malthouse screwed up by playing Jaksch. He may have went in with a plan that didn't end up working, but you an say that for probably 18 teams on a weekly basis.

The kid showed more in that game then most of our list have shown in years.

I'm not saying that at all Kruddler.  Jaksch is the one addition to our list who has a bright future and he is in my best 22. 

What I am saying is that Jaksch should have been played off halfback where his athleticism and run would have provided an advantage.  Then there's the misuse of Rowe, failure to provide back up for Wood, failure to counter Richmond's two loose men behind the ball, etc, etc.

We went in with a plan that didn't work, mismatches that disadvantaged us, an unbalanced side and an underdone sub.  Worse still, the coach's response to being caught out was to shout at a young bloke and move players at random.

Not to mention we bombed inside 50m all night with Casboult sitting in the stands. The old guy is losing it. Needs a big one this week, a ten goal thrashing will see the wolves out nice and early.

Not to mention we bombed inside 50m all night with Casboult sitting in the stands. The old guy is losing it. Needs a big one this week, a ten goal thrashing will see the wolves out nice and early.

Against West Coast who are 2 defenders down with injury, we have to play Levi. Henderson might need to play in the back 50m now that Jaksch is out. If Mick doesn't play Levi, I will have doubts about where we are heading this season. At least to give Wood some time up forward and relief in the ruck. Rowe is not ruck material IMO. The Eagles are 2 defenders down, so surely Jones and Everitt can find a way to clunk the pill. Here we go again. DANGER game again.

Not to mention we bombed inside 50m all night with Casboult sitting in the stands. The old guy is losing it. Needs a big one this week, a ten goal thrashing will see the wolves out nice and early.

We can win.

Won't be 10 but might be 2.

Don't care just don't want another 0-3, 0-4 start to the year.

Jaksch played out the game and kicked a really great goal after suffering broken ribs. Plenty to like about that.

Docherty's best game for the club. I can really see a future for him.

Yarran, Simmo, Murph, Gibbs really really poor. Regularly combined to hand the momentum to Tigs and then went missing.

Murphy looks short of a run. Putrid.

Menzel was good. Hendo and Jones had forgettable nights (though Jones could have kicked 4 goals) but when the team can't clear the halfway line for 3 quarters the forwards look terrible.

Jaksch played out the game and kicked a really great goal after suffering broken ribs. Plenty to like about that.

Docherty's best game for the club. I can really see a future for him.

Yarran, Simmo, Murph, Gibbs really really poor. Regularly combined to hand the momentum to Tigs and then went missing.

Murphy looks short of a run. Putrid.

Menzel was good. Hendo and Jones had forgettable nights (though Jones could have kicked 4 goals) but when the team can't clear the halfway line for 3 quarters the forwards look terrible.

And we should be worried about debutantes performances?

Not to mention we bombed inside 50m all night with Casboult sitting in the stands. The old guy is losing it. Needs a big one this week, a ten goal thrashing will see the wolves out nice and early.

We bombed the footy due to the Tigers playing the extra man back when we had control of the game at different times, the counter for that is to play your troops further up the ground, drag the tiger defenders out and clear  some space for Jones, Henderson etc to run into ...didnt happen.
We picked out Rance, Batchelor etc and they kicked it to Houli who was killing is off half back cheating for easy kicks due to Smith's  inexperience...we never woke up to that either....

Mick, Wiley and the coaches were putrid IMO in their reading of the play and matchups......Jaksch, Smith etc were left exposed, thats not development either....

Jaksch played out the game and kicked a really great goal after suffering broken ribs. Plenty to like about that.

Docherty's best game for the club. I can really see a future for him.

Yarran, Simmo, Murph, Gibbs really really poor. Regularly combined to hand the momentum to Tigs and then went missing.

Murphy looks short of a run. Putrid.

Menzel was good. Hendo and Jones had forgettable nights (though Jones could have kicked 4 goals) but when the team can't clear the halfway line for 3 quarters the forwards look terrible.

Nice summary.

We can win.

Won't be 10 but might be 2.

Don't care just don't want another 0-3, 0-4 start to the year.

Yup, a win and everything changes, a loss and the year is gone. TBH I'm more scared of playing up and coming sides like Melbourne and the doggies.

I'm not saying that at all Kruddler.  Jaksch is the one addition to our list who has a bright future and he is in my best 22. 

What I am saying is that Jaksch should have been played off halfback where his athleticism and run would have provided an advantage.  Then there's the misuse of Rowe, failure to provide back up for Wood, failure to counter Richmond's two loose men behind the ball, etc, etc.

We went in with a plan that didn't work, mismatches that disadvantaged us, an unbalanced side and an underdone sub.  Worse still, the coach's response to being caught out was to shout at a young bloke and move players at random.

We were up by about 5 goals early on. I'm not sure if you can say that our plan didn't work exactly. I think there was a couple of spanners thrown in the works along the way and ultimately they outplayed us. The side picked and the injuries we had didn't allow us to do a whole lot.

As for the side picked, the majority of players picked were all in our best 22. With the exception of Casboult and Smith as the sub...not much to argue about anyone else.

In the end, it was a terrible day for us. Injuries, bad kicking and 50-50 matchups that went against us cost us the game.
As long as we learn from it going into next week. Don't care how 'out of form' Casboult is, we need him in the side.

We were up by about 5 goals early on. I'm not sure if you can say that our plan didn't work exactly. I think there was a couple of spanners thrown in the works along the way and ultimately they outplayed us. The side picked and the injuries we had didn't allow us to do a whole lot.

As for the side picked, the majority of players picked were all in our best 22. With the exception of Casboult and Smith as the sub...not much to argue about anyone else.

In the end, it was a terrible day for us. Injuries, bad kicking and 50-50 matchups that went against us cost us the game.
As long as we learn from it going into next week. Don't care how 'out of form' Casboult is, we need him in the side.

We were up by almost 4 goals, but we should have had a lead of at least 9 goals with reasonably accurate kicking.  If we had got such a break, I suspect Richmond would have capitulated and the discussions here would be very different.

Without doubt, the major mistake we made was playing Clem Smith as a sub. It was a punt that he wouldn't be used until later in the game when the heat was out, speed was down and his fresh legs were good to go.

When picking the sub, the question needs to be asked, 'Is this guy physically and mentally able to see out a whole game?'  95% of the time I think our subs are. This time we tried to be too cute and it backfired!

Without doubt, the major mistake we made was playing Clem Smith as a sub. It was a punt that he wouldn't be used until later in the game when the heat was out, speed was down and his fresh legs were good to go.

When picking the sub, the question needs to be asked, 'Is this guy physically and mentally able to see out a whole game?'  95% of the time I think our subs are. This time we tried to be too cute and it backfired!

1. Picking Clem Smith was the wrong thing to do.
No, it wasn't.
The sub is the perfect situation to bring in kids and give them a taste of it.
The sub is the perfect situation to play an impact player.
The sub is the perfect situation to play someone who may not be able to run out a game.

Smith ticks all those boxes. Yes, it was unfortunate we lost Thomas so early, but in 99% of the games, that won't happen.

Mick also likes to pick kids for big games and see what they can do under real pressure. 84,000 people will give Mick a great idea of what to expect from Smith. FWIW, i didn't think he was that bad.

Keep in mind that i picked Tutt to be sub over Smith simply because i thought he was more physically ready and capable of playing the whole game.

That being said, would Tutt have made a difference?
Perhaps we should've had Armfield as the sub. Possibly could've been a better option than Tutt. However, not 1 single person suggested as much pre-game.

Mondays experts.

Did they pick Smith with 100% confidence that if needed he could run out a whole game and play a significant role for the team?  If yes, fine. If not, we punted badly.

We were up by almost 4 goals, but we should have had a lead of at least 9 goals with reasonably accurate kicking.  If we had got such a break, I suspect Richmond would have capitulated and the discussions here would be very different.

The story of our life unfortunately!

Did they pick Smith with 100% confidence that if needed he could run out a whole game and play a significant role for the team?  If yes, fine. If not, we punted badly.

1. Was he still running around at the end of the game? Yes.
2. Was he the only player to show fatigue during the game? No.
3. Do coaches from all teams take a punt on playing a kid even though they might not be 100% match ready? Yes.
4. Would it be better if we made him, and everyone in a similar position, play in the 2's all year until he gets his match fitness up to a higher base? No.
5. Was he the worst player on the ground? No

Playing Smith as the sub was a gamble and we lost.  However, I'm not too concerned about the decision because Smith was one of the best performed recruits in the pre-season comp and bringing him on late in the game would have provided valuable experience without too much pressure on his limited endurance.  Daisy's awful injury put paid to that.

A more conservative approach would have been to have Armfield, Boekhurst or Tutt as the sub.  Armfield would have been my preference simply because you know what you're going to get.  Boekhurst hasn't shown a lot so far and giving him a run might send the wrong message.  I'm not convinced that Tutt will be a player but, if you want to give a newby a go, he would probably have been a better option than Smith simply because he has several pre-seasons under his belt.

I hope Smith is taken aside and told that the club is happy with his performance but he needs to tear it up in the NBs for 6 or 8 weeks to build his stamina.

 

Without doubt, the major mistake we made was playing Clem Smith as a sub. It was a punt that he wouldn't be used until later in the game when the heat was out, speed was down and his fresh legs were good to go.

When picking the sub, the question needs to be asked, 'Is this guy physically and mentally able to see out a whole game?'  95% of the time I think our subs are. This time we tried to be too cute and it backfired!

I am thinking another major mistake at the selection table was in not going with a back up ruck option , having to use Rowe & unsettling the side as much as it did.

I am thinking another major mistake at the selection table was in not going with a back up ruck option , having to use Rowe & unsettling the side as much as it did.

Absolutely this. MM's obsession with having players he can throw all over the park is currently to the teams detriment. Rowe just plays down back, that's it. Henderson forward. What worries me is that basically all teams showed something, even the lowly saints. We showed nothing after quarter time. Could be a very long year.

I am thinking another major mistake at the selection table was in not going with a back up ruck option , having to use Rowe & unsettling the side as much as it did.

Im not sure this would have been as big an issue Had Jaksch not busbusted his ribs.

I am thinking another major mistake at the selection table was in not going with a back up ruck option , having to use Rowe & unsettling the side as much as it did.

Too cute cost the Sea Hawks the Superbowl (yay) so you just don't do it.

Im not sure this would have been as big an issue Had Jaksch not busbusted his ribs.

Rowe would still have had to ruck - does any other AFL team rotate their CHB in the ruck?

Jaksch is not a key position player, as Malthouse conceded after the game.  He could have provided more run out of the backline and/or more movement in the forward line if he wasn't injured but we would still have been missing a back up ruckman.