Carlton Supporters Club

Social Club => Blah-Blah Bar => Topic started by: Lods on September 17, 2015, 02:15:32 pm

Title: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on September 17, 2015, 02:15:32 pm
There might not be a great deal of interest in US Politics....but it probably should concern us.....very concern us.

I've just finished watching the Republican party candidate debate.

Is it possible, no it couldn't be ::)...or could it be....that Donald Trump is actually the best possible candidate the Republicans can put forward for President. :o

If there is to be a serious challenger, and surely there must be down the track, it may come from Carly Fiorina who seems to be growing in considerations.

I thought the young Florida senator Marco Rubio performed well. He's a good speaker, but he may be a better chance in four years time.

Jeb Bush and Rand Paul,two others being spoken of as likely candidates, were very average.

Scary stuff. ???

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 17, 2015, 09:01:57 pm
Wow, you're so right wing! 

Any small-L liberal would vomit if forced to watch those wankers.

They are all scumbags who are happy to dance to the Koch brothers' tune.  Perhaps Trump might be an exception but he has shown himself to be the biggest scumbag of all. 

The GOP is the old white man's party of choice and is destined to continue its slide into irrelevance.

Imagine a debate involving clones of Corey Bernardi, all trumpeting a slavish commitment to creationism and strict biblical readings.  This is the party dominated by evangelical Christians and Tea-Party fundamentalists.  This is the party which is committed to tax-breaks for the top 1% and which can't wait to dismantle Obama's tame version of Medicare.  And of great concern to us is the ideological drive to find a new war, preferably one in a Muslim country.

The US and the world generally needs this Presidential election to be an unmistakeable repudiation of Republican extremism.

I can only hope that the successful Democratic candidate will then be able to reshape the Supreme Court so that the scandalous Citizen's United decision can be reversed.  Imagine a court deciding that the ability of the rich to use their money to influence elections and to exact favours from politicians is constitutionally-protected free speech ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: thrunthrublu on September 17, 2015, 09:40:35 pm
They're all driven by each way bet puppet masters, AIPAC and others to the tune 4+ billion and rising. There's your version of democracy when only the best subservient candidates get a look in. Their interests preserved and advanced there and abroad far exceeds the importance of the highest office. Who gets in is irrelevant 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on September 17, 2015, 11:02:17 pm
Wow, you're so right wing!

You couldn't be more wrong ;)
I was a huge Obama supporter before he was superstar, years before he was President.....but the substance didn't quite match the image.
Often happens with Democrats.

Rubio (a Republican) is a bit the same...really good speaker, good looking fellow... but his message was a bit scary
I studied American politics at College
Always fascinated by it.
I don't have strong views either way.
It's the process.

On the candidates that fronted today it shouldn't even be a contest next year.....but I think it will be.
I suspect you're putting a bit too much faith in the judgement of the American voter.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 17, 2015, 11:21:44 pm
Remember, though, that demographics are hurting the Republicans.  Old and angry white men are being outnumbered.  You'd think the GOP would understand it needs to woo the Latino and black voters but Trump is whipping up racist hatred and the lemmings are more than happy to follow his lead.

The only Republican candidates who might be able to appeal to Latino votes are Bush and Rubio.  IIRC, Bush's wife is Mexican and he speaks fluent Spanish.  Trump bagged him for this, saying he should speak American instead. But both Rubio and Bush are from Florida and will split the Latino vote in the primaries and Bush is on last legs anyway.

You'd think Carson would appeal to black voters and has a high profile as one of the first neurosurgeons to separate conjoined twins.  But he's been a bit of an Uncle Tom in his dismissal of the Black Lives Matter campaign.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on September 17, 2015, 11:45:20 pm
Remember, though, that demographics are hurting the Republicans.  Old and angry white men are being outnumbered.  You'd think the GOP would understand it needs to woo the Latino and black voters but Trump is whipping up racist hatred and the lemmings are more than happy to follow his lead.

The only Republican candidates who might be able to appeal to Latino votes are Bush and Rubio.  IIRC, Bush's wife is Mexican and he speaks fluent Spanish.  Trump bagged him for this, saying he should speak American instead. But both Rubio and Bush are from Florida and will split the Latino vote in the primaries and Bush is on last legs anyway.

I just can't believe when it comes to the crunch they would put Trump up as the candidate.....but as I said I don't have a lot of faith in the American voter in general, and Republicans in particular.
Still some months away from the first of the primaries though, so we'll have a better indication then of how they're stacking up.
There will be a few casualties along the way.

Bush will be lucky to survive...they asked a question as to which woman the candidates would like to see on the ten dollar bill...his answer.... Margaret Thatcher. ::)

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on September 18, 2015, 09:23:28 am
They're all driven by each way bet puppet masters, AIPAC and others to the tune 4+ billion and rising. There's your version of democracy when only the best subservient candidates get a look in. Their interests preserved and advanced there and abroad far exceeds the importance of the highest office. Who gets in is irrelevant

My sentiments exactly.

We are provided the illusion of choice in order to placate the masses that they are free to choose.

In reality, we all serve people like Gina Reinhardt.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on September 18, 2015, 09:30:39 am
I just can't believe when it comes to the crunch they would put Trump up as the candidate.....but as I said I don't have a lot of faith in the American voter in general, and Republicans in particular.
Still some months away from the first of the primaries though, so we'll have a better indication then of how they're stacking up.
There will be a few casualties along the way.

Bush will be lucky to survive...they asked a question as to which woman the candidates would like to see on the ten dollar bill...his answer.... Margaret Thatcher. ::)

I'm pretty sure that Trump won't get the nomination; he's not a Republican and the party establishment doesn't trust him.  I suspect that he will continue to alienate folk to the point where it will become clear that he is out of the race.  I expect that he will then announce his decision to run as an independent.

There's really no other standout at this stage; a mediocre field at best.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on September 18, 2015, 10:54:48 am
Trump is getting a huge amount of publicity - maybe that's what he's really interested in rather than the presidency?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on September 18, 2015, 11:06:12 am
There's hardly another nation in the world that would take Trump seriously, what does that say about our conservative Yank friends?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on September 18, 2015, 11:11:06 am
Once he (Trump)bows out of the Republican race no doubt some 'deals' will  be done.

The eventual Republican Presidential candidate may even use one of his current opponents as a running mate to try to repair some of the damage Trump has done to certain sections of society.

There's hardly another nation in the world that would take Trump seriously, what does that say about our conservative Yank friends?

We had "Joh (Bjelke-Petersen) for PM" going just as strong at one stage....till common sense took over. ;D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 18, 2015, 11:25:29 am
There's hardly another nation in the world that would take Trump seriously, what does that say about our conservative Yank friends?

We elected Tony Abbott.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on September 18, 2015, 01:17:59 pm
Wow, you're so right wing! 

Any small-L liberal would vomit if forced to watch those wankers.

They are all scumbags who are happy to dance to the Koch brothers' tune.  Perhaps Trump might be an exception but he has shown himself to be the biggest scumbag of all. 

The GOP is the old white man's party of choice and is destined to continue its slide into irrelevance.

Imagine a debate involving clones of Corey Bernardi, all trumpeting a slavish commitment to creationism and strict biblical readings.  This is the party dominated by evangelical Christians and Tea-Party fundamentalists.  This is the party which is committed to tax-breaks for the top 1% and which can't wait to dismantle Obama's tame version of Medicare.  And of great concern to us is the ideological drive to find a new war, preferably one in a Muslim country.

The US and the world generally needs this Presidential election to be an unmistakeable repudiation of Republican extremism.

I can only hope that the successful Democratic candidate will then be able to reshape the Supreme Court so that the scandalous Citizen's United decision can be reversed.  Imagine a court deciding that the ability of the rich to use their money to influence elections and to exact favours from politicians is constitutionally-protected free speech ...

Maybe going a bit hard there, but certainly agree with the sentiment 100%.

If you want terrific analysis of US politics over the last 30 or 40 years, you can't beat Chomsky.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on September 18, 2015, 03:31:19 pm
We elected Tony Abbott.

Mm, fair point. Seems the far right is saturated with d1ckheads... ;D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on September 18, 2015, 03:58:22 pm
We elected Tony Abbott.

Can't argue with that!  :)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on September 18, 2015, 05:17:40 pm
We elected Tony Abbott.

Touche! People in glass houses and all that.. :))
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: thrunthrublu on September 18, 2015, 07:32:40 pm
countries and its people yearn for need .  Its hard to isolate left and right at a point in time overlayed against another point in time.
You take circa 1933 Germany, its high unemployment, inflation, occupation of productive regions by allies, ridiculous restitution..all gives rise to an alternative which was NSDAP. 4 years later, all of this was reversed to the amazement of the western world . Fast forward ....USA was tired of bush, but felt he was the best equipped to defend "threats" In hind sight, Gore was better? Rudd over howard...change for the sake of change?, all the economic factors were sound. USA today, the public fear special interest groups have too much power? perhaps this gives rise to the popularity of trump who clearly postures his wealth to make him appear impervious to subservience by these powerful outsiders?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on September 19, 2015, 09:53:05 am
Whilst Trump is only third in the betting odds, I think it will be Donald Trump or Jeb Bush that will almost certainly win the Republican vote and I think that Trump's policies (which almost every other Republican is blasting) are the exact reason why. He says things that hit a home run with a lot of American's, especially a lot of Republicans and they like that he doesn't care.

For a lot of American's they have a strong leaning towards a party and they see parties as simply being along the lines of the following

Republican -
Taxes..
IssueRepublicanDemocrat
Government RegulationsGovernments should interfere as little as possible and a free market place is required for growth.Government regulation is necessary to prevent exploitation and ensure companies don't ride over worker and consumers through monopolization for example.
TaxesShould never be raised, flat ratesTax share should be progressive and based on earning
MilitaryBuy another a bomb!!!Cut spending or keep status
Gun ControlThis country was formed on the back of the right to bear armsMore open to gun control
AbortionMore likely to be strongly againstMore likely to see it as a person's individual choise
Health CareStrongly (very strongly) against spending taxes on providing health care for all Support for government funded health care
ImmigationAs above, this is a massive issue for Republicans and generally they would want all undocumented worker deported. More open to a policy that says if they have been here a while, been good citizens etc etc then they should have an option to apply for citizenship
Death PenaltyMajority approve, few don'tMajority approve, some NE states don't
Minimum WageNo minimum wage, if a person will work for $1 an hour a company should be able to pay them that.Minimum wage prevents exploitation of workers*
* It doesn't really, it only shields them a touch, the US minimum wage is an absolute joke.

Overall for a number of people in America it doesn't matter if it is Donald Duck vs Mickey Mouse.
A republican wants their gun, they do NOT want THEIR wages TAXED for other benefit.
My ex-wife was married to a guy in the military for me and she worked on an Army base so a lot of her friends were military and I can say that an extremely large portion of them are hard core republicans and if it was Donald Trump or Donald Duck up against Hilary, they would be voting hard for either Donald.

In saying that..

The republicans could be described as..
God fearing people who believe the founding fathers and god determined how this country should be run and by god and the founding fathers all decisions should be made.

This makes them very pro gun, anti-abortion, anti-gay etc etc ...

But this is becoming out-dated and Mav touched on a reason with the sheer numbers of the population changing, but even more than that, everyone on social media is developing a conscience. More and more if you were to post anti-abortion or anti-gay slogans, you would be shot down.
If you ran a business and were openly promoting these standards, it would be the end of you unless it was a local shop in the heart of Texas.
The "America" that the Republican party hold is disappearing, but they still have at least a few elections left in them and it would not completely surprise to see Trump as the next president. In essence in the future being called a republican will the same as being called a bigot or backwards or anything of the like, being called liberal is usually considered more in trend.

If I had stayed on and gone from resident to citizen, I would have actually joined the democrat party as I think I am against basically every Republican policy, I think most Australian's who like the Australian way of life would be democrats (though not all).

All of the above goes out the window if there was a war.
If there was a war tomorrow, a White American Republican Male would be the president (Bush or Trump, doesn't really matter).

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on January 25, 2016, 06:30:58 pm
I suspect the next President of the United States hasn’t entered the race yet.
If they have ……get ready for President Trump. ::)

On the Republican side of things the ''Mad Hairdo’’ is wiping the floor with his opponents

Jeb Bush seems to be the least intelligent and effective of all the Bushes
Ted Kruz is a Canadian that nobody likes.
Rubio looks the part and speaks well but is only a baby and never goes to work.

On the Democratic side…..
Hilary could possibly end up in gaol and Bernie Sanders is a “Commie”  (neither claim is actually true…but Fox news thinks it is) ;)

Funny times ;D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on January 25, 2016, 07:04:50 pm
Ironically, Ted Cruz might be ineligible.  The "birthers" have spent the last 8 years disputing that Obama is a "natural born American".  In his case, they alleged that he wasn't born in Hawaii but in Kenya.  Trump was a prominent birther, demanding that Obama release his full birth certificate and when Obama did so he alleged it was a forgery.

It now looks as though the right wing loonies may finally have found someone who wasn't born in America but he's one of the favourites of right wing loons.

Cruz was born in Canada.  His mother was a US citizen at the time but his father was a Canadian citizen after arriving in the US as a refugee without taking US citizenship.  Cruz remained a Canadian citizen until about 8 years ago when he renounced it.  He had always been a US citizen because of his mother's citizenship.

Most had assumed that his US citizenship was enough to make him eligible.  There's a strong argument, however, that it isn't.  John. McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone, then a US territory, where both his parents were serving in the US military.  Constitutional scholars believe McCain was eligible because his parents were serving the US Government at the time and it didn't hurt that it was technically US territory.  In Cruz's case, his mother wasn't serving the US in any capacity. 

Some legal scholars also believe that the citizenship of the mother is irrelevant - only that of the father counts. Again, it's ironic that the right wing obsession that the Constitution should be interpreted only as the founding fathers intended and all social advancements since then should be ignored.  For Cruz, the fact that women have obtained full rights might not matter as they were effectively property back then.

The legal scholars believe that "natural born citizen" doesn't mean simply a US citizen - it means that he was born there.

Cruz and Trump are both darlings of the far right wing Republican base.  And Trump is already telling everyone that Cruz may be ineligible.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on January 30, 2016, 11:33:48 am
I wonder how the Zika virus will affect the election.

The Zika virus is generally no worse than the flu but recently the outbreak in Brazil has demonstrated how devastating it can be for pregnant women with many giving birth to microcephalic babies (where the skull doesn't expand and compresses the growing brain causing serious disabilities).  It also appears it might cause Guillain-Barré syndrome in which the immune system attacks one's own nerves causing muscle weakness and even paralysis.

This will cause havoc in the upcoming Rio Olympics.  Female Australian athletes have been warned against going if they may be pregnant.

It will also cause panic soon in the US if the virus arrives in the US as feared.  Texas has conditions which are particularly conducive to the spread of the virus.

As we know from the Tampa incident and 9/11, some events can turn elections.  Already, the ISIS-related massacres in Paris have propelled national security to the forefront in the current campaign.  But how will the Zika virus affect it?

The lunatic Christian extremists might see such a plague as divine retribution against immoral governments which tolerate homosexuality and abortion.  The Westboro Church rejoiced when the Tsunami killed thousands in Thailand for this reason.  But generally such an outbreak would hurt the Republicans.  Popular sentiment might have it that the Republicans are better at national security but the Democrats are seen as better managers of public health issues.

The spotlight would also be turned on issues which wouldn't suit the Republicans: abortion rights, climate change, the need for federal health funding and expertise, and vaccinations.

Texas has been leading attempts by Republican States to undermine the right to abortions.  It has sought to dramatically stiffen regulations applying to abortion centres to put them out of business and has tried to close down Planned Parenthood in the wake of some taped conversations which were deceptively edited to prove that the organisation was selling "baby parts".  How will it react if pregnant women demand abortions if they contract the Zika virus, particularly if there are women who want late-term abortions?  What will the Republican candidate say about this?

Will scientists suggest that climate change has left the US at the mercy of tropical diseases?  If the argument moves from the fate of polar ice caps and polar bears to the health and safety of US citizens, the Republican candidate might not be able to dismiss climate change so easily. 

The Republican candidate also wouldn't be crazy about having to pledge an increase in the size of the health budget and the federal government's health apparatus.  He (Carly Fiorini being an also-ran) would prefer to leave health issues to the States and the private sector but a Zika outbreak would be a national health issue which would demand Federal intervention.

If a vaccination can be found for the Zika virus, this will undercut the Libertarian viewpoint that vaccinations may cause harm and so each person should be able to decide whether to submit to a vaccination.  Refusing to vaccinate and leaving pregnant women at risk of having severely disabled babies or miscarriages wouldn't be easy to defend.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on January 30, 2016, 11:39:10 am
I suspect the next President of the United States hasn’t entered the race yet.
If they have ……get ready for President Trump. ::)

On the Republican side of things the ''Mad Hairdo’’ is wiping the floor with his opponents

Jeb Bush seems to be the least intelligent and effective of all the Bushes
Ted Kruz is a Canadian that nobody likes.
Rubio looks the part and speaks well but is only a baby and never goes to work.

On the Democratic side…..
Hilary could possibly end up in gaol and Bernie Sanders is a “Commie”  (neither claim is actually true…but Fox news thinks it is) ;)

Funny times ;D

How is Martin Sheen atm?  - he did a good job in The West Wing.  ::) :))
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on January 30, 2016, 12:26:17 pm
The problem in the USA is quite simple, money can buy you the Presidency if your pockets and the pockets of your supporters are deep enough.

I suspect Trump's motives will be nothing more than mega-profit for himself and his supporters. He will be offering his mates billions, and they will probably rape the USA and other countries in the process!

These blokes have no national loyalty, and if a country like China or India offered them a better financial deal they would jump ship faster than a Murdoch!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Bear on January 30, 2016, 01:23:18 pm
I wouldn't panic re: Trump until he gets the nomination. He could still flame out.

If he gets it, it will be like watching a car crash. He doesn't have to play by the rules. He would be saying and doing some outrageous things.

 Also have to keep in mind that not all of the US are redneck idiots. Trump would still need to win the big states like NY, California etc... The republicans have struggled to get votes outside of their shrinking base in the past two elections.

So even if he gets it, I don't think he could win.

If he did win, then panic would be an understatement.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Juddkreuzer on January 30, 2016, 03:49:11 pm
So even if he gets it, I don't think he could win.

If he did win, then panic would be an understatement.

It would be safe to entertain the idea of many gunmen on many grassy knolls if he did win.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on January 31, 2016, 08:56:08 am
The problem in the USA is quite simple, money can buy you the Presidency if your pockets and the pockets of your supporters are deep enough.

I suspect Trump's motives will be nothing more than mega-profit for himself and his supporters. He will be offering his mates billions, and they will probably rape the USA and other countries in the process!

These blokes have no national loyalty, and if a country like China or India offered them a better financial deal they would jump ship faster than a Murdoch!
to become prime minister of Australia you need Gina's tick of approval.

Let's not pretend modern democracy is anything like the ideals first created.

For starters the public were able to vote a representative into exile in disgrace in the ancient Greece.

I'd say this is probably relevant the world over.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on January 31, 2016, 09:34:37 am
But in the US, things are much worse because of a ridiculous Supreme Court decision.  In Citizens United, the Court struck down a law that tried to reform campaign financing by limiting donations from the wealthy and corporations.  Unbelievably, the Court found that corporations are people too and donating money to politicians is protected by the First Amendment as freedom of speech.  The majority reasoned that it's the essence of democracy to allow the rich and big corporations to use their money to persuade politicians to act in their interests.  Now, billionaires are free to form PACs and Super-PACS (political action committees) and raise big money anonymously to support candidates of their choice.  The Koch Brothers have been doing that on the Republican side now for a while.  They have been thwarted by Trump who refuses to play by their tune but then again he's a billionaire too and he hasn't needed even his own money as the media gives him so much coverage he doesn't have to buy advertising time.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on January 31, 2016, 10:53:51 am
to become prime minister of Australia you need Gina's tick of approval.

Let's not pretend modern democracy is anything like the ideals first created.

For starters the public were able to vote a representative into exile in disgrace in the ancient Greece.

I'd say this is probably relevant the world over.

It's not even close to being the same, here donations have to be declared, are limited in various ways and subject to senate scrutiny.

In the US donations can be completely anonymous, I've even heard stories of Republicans supporting Democrats so that their preferred opponent has a better chance of being nominated. If you tried that on here or in the UK you would be on the way to the big house for a conspiracy of some sort.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on January 31, 2016, 10:59:03 am
Now, billionaires are free to form PACs and Super-PACS (political action committees) and raise big money anonymously to support candidates of their choice.  The Koch Brothers have been doing that on the Republican side now for a while.  They have been thwarted by Trump who refuses to play by their tune but then again he's a billionaire too and he hasn't needed even his own money as the media gives him so much coverage he doesn't have to buy advertising time.

The US situation is made worse by the fact that voting is not compulsory, the wealthy vote is worth far more than it should be.

Do you think Trump will pull the pin once the "offer" to do so is valuable enough, or does he see himself as the next Putin? The USAs first ever Oligarch!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on January 31, 2016, 05:51:25 pm
It's not even close to being the same, here donations have to be declared, are limited in various ways and subject to senate scrutiny.

In the US donations can be completely anonymous, I've even heard stories of Republicans supporting Democrats so that their preferred opponent has a better chance of being nominated. If you tried that on here or in the UK you would be on the way to the big house for a conspiracy of some sort.


Its the biggest scam in the world.

Provide the people the illusion of choice and they will comply.  Remove their choice and freedom and they rebel.

Morons like trump serve the ruling class by distracting the masses from who has the real power in government.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: thrunthrublu on January 31, 2016, 06:25:30 pm
bloomberg smells blood.
more than likely will throw his hat in the ring as an independent if trump gets nominated.
Watch the oil that lubes the propaganda machine then , the special interests groups
will fund a campaign unseen in history - all the cards in the deck will be used by these hyenas and jackals
For those of you that dont have your heads in orifices of the kardashians et al, its going to be turbulent
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 31, 2016, 06:45:37 pm
I wouldn't panic re: Trump until he gets the nomination. He could still flame out.

If he gets it, it will be like watching a car crash. He doesn't have to play by the rules. He would be saying and doing some outrageous things.

 Also have to keep in mind that not all of the US are redneck idiots. Trump would still need to win the big states like NY, California etc... The republicans have struggled to get votes outside of their shrinking base in the past two elections.

So even if he gets it, I don't think he could win.

If he did win, then panic would be an understatement.

Depends how many vote, the USA system makes it harder for the poor, working class to vote, paying for/providing ID puts the low income potential voter off voting...I think Trump will win nomination
but not the big job unless there is a massive terror attack in the States or some other disaster that he can milk panicked voters for support...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on January 31, 2016, 07:36:50 pm
The Republican powerbrokers don't want Trump and they'll make sure he isn't nominated.

Unlike the other candidates, Trump has never pledged not to run as an independent and I reckon he will.  That will split the conservative vote.

The US senate recently voted that climate change isn't a product of human activity (I understand they're voting soon on the rediculous notion that the earth isn't flat) so anything is possible.  However, as we elected Tony Abbott as PM, we're not really in a position to throw stones  ::)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on January 31, 2016, 08:46:17 pm
EB, unfortunately it's not the US voting system - each State is responsible for passing voting laws and setting up the electoral machinery.  In fact, different laws can be found at the local level within States. Republican states have been very active in passing laws that make it more difficult for the poor, the working class and minorities to vote.  The Republicans are well aware that their heartland is shrinking and their only chance to compete is by stopping the Democratic-friendly groups from voting.  In particular those States love banning those who've ever been in jail and sometimes those who've been on probation - as black Americans are over-represented before the courts, that works in favour of the Republicans.  The election is held on the first Tuesday in November so that workers find it difficult to vote.  Voters are often confronted by ridiculously long queues that send a message that it's not worth joining the queue.  Staff at voting stations sometimes try to persuade voters to go home without voting.  Voter registration requirements hit the poor or low-wage workers harder as do the complications of re-registration requirements when voters change address.  By requiring voters to pay for photo IDs and provide extensive proof of residence, the homeless and the poor often give up.  Immigrants who sometimes have to wait for 8-10 years for citizenship are barred from voting.

Then you have the fiasco of the stupid hole-punch machines used by Florida which enabled Jeb Bush to give his brother his first term in office by discounting hanging chads and the like.

It's not a system which encourages universal suffrage.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 31, 2016, 11:38:41 pm
EB, unfortunately it's not the US voting system - each State is responsible for passing voting laws and setting up the electoral machinery.  In fact, different laws can be found at the local level within States. Republican states have been very active in passing laws that make it more difficult for the poor, the working class and minorities to vote.  The Republicans are well aware that their heartland is shrinking and their only chance to compete is by stopping the Democratic-friendly groups from voting.  In particular those States love banning those who've ever been in jail and sometimes those who've been on probation - as black Americans are over-represented before the courts, that works in favour of the Republicans.  The election is held on the first Tuesday in November so that workers find it difficult to vote.  Voters are often confronted by ridiculously long queues that send a message that it's not worth joining the queue.  Staff at voting stations sometimes try to persuade voters to go home without voting.  Voter registration requirements hit the poor or low-wage workers harder as do the complications of re-registration requirements when voters change address.  By requiring voters to pay for photo IDs and provide extensive proof of residence, the homeless and the poor often give up.  Immigrants who sometimes have to wait for 8-10 years for citizenship are barred from voting.

Then you have the fiasco of the stupid hole-punch machines used by Florida which enabled Jeb Bush to give his brother his first term in office by discounting hanging chads and the like.

It's not a system which encourages universal suffrage.

Yep Agree Mav, you have put it together better than I could...you would think one of the most important jobs in the world would have a more refined and smooth system in the land of the free to elect a leader but its a corrupt mess that could lead to a ego maniac like Trump winning by default...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Bear on February 01, 2016, 11:29:26 am
Despite all that , they still elected a black president... twice. But they also elected George W twice!

I read this over the weekend (via the Longform app, which i would recommend), thought it might be of interest: http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21689539-primary-contest-about-get-serious-it-has-rarely-been-so-ugly-uncertain-or (http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21689539-primary-contest-about-get-serious-it-has-rarely-been-so-ugly-uncertain-or)

 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on February 01, 2016, 01:05:06 pm
http://www.salon.com/2016/01/31/why_iowa_matters_a_donald_trump_victory_in_mondays_caucus_would_make_him_virtually_unstoppable/
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: tonyo on February 01, 2016, 04:07:49 pm
If Trump becomes the President of the USA, I am moving to the moon.......
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on February 01, 2016, 04:18:23 pm
If Trump becomes the President of the USA, I am moving to the moon.......

Well it was predicted on the Simpsons

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/prksTLSvzQ8/hqdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on February 01, 2016, 05:50:44 pm
For the life of me I just can't see the next President among any of them.

If I had to guess I'd say it will be Rubio.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on February 01, 2016, 08:33:20 pm
Hilary's chances of becoming the first female president are skyrocketing.  I wonder what mischief Bill will get up to as the first bloke?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on February 01, 2016, 10:06:33 pm
Hilary's chances of becoming the first female president are skyrocketing.  I wonder what mischief Bill will get up to as the first bloke?

I'm not so sure...there's few little time bombs ticking away for her...just bubbling along.
While she may not face criminal charges they have the potential to weaken her if the Republicans can give them legs.

Interesting....these graphs are the amalgamation of a number of polls.

(http://e.huffpost.com/screenshooter/elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/embed/ss2/2016-general-election-trump-vs-clinton/20160201111438083.png)
(http://e.huffpost.com/screenshooter/elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/embed/ss2/2016-general-election-rubio-vs-clinton/20160201111645594.png)


(just a caution when viewing the graphs the Clinton/Rubio starts a little earlier than the Clinton/Trump but it's the end point that's significant.)


Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: crashlander on February 01, 2016, 10:31:20 pm
I feel a bit sorry for the Yanks: I can't think of a less impressive set of politicians for them to vote for. Hilary Clinton does not impress me (She's very ordinary and is like Collingwood - either totally loved or loathed), but Trump is unbelievable. He is a nightmare waiting to happen.

Mind you, we can't talk much. Our last 3 PMs have been among the least impressive in history. But even they would be less dreadful than the field the Americans appear to have.
What has happened to the Robert Menzies or Mal Frasers of this world?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on February 01, 2016, 11:02:33 pm
Hilary's chances of becoming the first female president are skyrocketing.  I wonder what mischief Bill will get up to as the first bloke?

Take up cigars again?  :)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on February 02, 2016, 12:59:46 am
Take up cigars again?  :)

Apparently, the husband of a female president will be called "the First Gentleman"  ::)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on February 02, 2016, 08:56:16 am
Assuming this is the real Rupert Murdoch (which is sometimes an issue with folk on twitter)

Quote
Rupert Murdoch ‏@rupertmurdoch Jan 31

Hillary email troubles get really serious.    WH has surprising alternates if things get worse.

Probably the best Democratic candidate for President is Joe Biden.
He said last year he wouldn't run and has so far stuck to that.
The problem now for Biden is that he has to have his name on the ballot and many states have already closed for this process.

If Hillary is out of the race though any delegates she'd acquired would be free to vote for Biden at the convention
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ItsOurTime on February 02, 2016, 11:38:25 am
Assuming this is the real Rupert Murdoch (which is sometimes an issue with folk on twitter)

Twitter will verify accounts of public/significant figures (look for the blue tick). That said, social networking duties do get delegated for many active Twits.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on February 02, 2016, 11:57:31 am
Twitter will verify accounts of public/significant figures (look for the blue tick). That said, social networking duties do get delegated for many active Twits.

Thanks for that IOT...seems it is Rupert....Of course he'd have an agenda of his own and Fox News is really pushing the Clinton e-mail issues.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 02, 2016, 01:15:15 pm
Murdoch is an much an unbiased political commentator as Robbo was an unbiased commentator in the Hird/EFC saga.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 02, 2016, 01:40:29 pm
With 64% of the votes counted, Clinton leads Sanders 51% to 49%.

With 47% of the votes counted, Cruz leads Trump and Rubio 29% to 25% and 21%.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on February 02, 2016, 02:32:49 pm
We'll see a few dropouts now.
O'Malley has gone from the Democrats and Huckabee has suspended his campaign.

Kruz (freudian slip) ;D... Cruz has won 28%....Trump on 24%....Rubio up to 23% a good result for him.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on February 02, 2016, 02:55:31 pm
Democrats Sanders and Clinton all tied up on 50% with 90% of the vote counted.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on February 02, 2016, 03:47:51 pm
Cruz wins, don't have the numbers yet.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 02, 2016, 04:20:48 pm
The Democratic Iowa Caucuses are a bit bizarre.  The % figures are 49.9% for Clinton and 49.6% for Sanders.  But those percentages relate to delegates and not votes.  The DNC won't release the voting tallies.  Candidates are required to poll at least 15% of the statewide vote to get any statewide delegates and at least 15% of the vote in any congressional district to get delegates in that district.  O'Malley looks as though he got 1% or less of the vote, but in fact he may have had 5-15% of the vote.  How his supporters spill to the other 2 candidates may be important in the remaining primaries.

The other thing is that delegates are awarded proportionally so that Clinton and Sanders will end up with almost the same number of delegates in Iowa.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 11, 2016, 08:16:47 am
Hmmm ... the GOP is making it plain that it won't make any concessions regarding abortion in the face of the Zika virus: http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/zika-virus-abortion-access-gop_us_56bb857ce4b08ffac1239bf6?section=australia (http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/zika-virus-abortion-access-gop_us_56bb857ce4b08ffac1239bf6?section=australia)

But it's easier to talk tough when the victims are abroad.  If it hits the US, it will be a lot messier.  Maybe a vaccine will be released in time to defuse this GOP bomb.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on February 11, 2016, 08:38:18 am
Hmmm ... the GOP is making it plain that it won't make any concessions regarding abortion in the face of the Zika virus: http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/zika-virus-abortion-access-gop_us_56bb857ce4b08ffac1239bf6?section=australia (http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/zika-virus-abortion-access-gop_us_56bb857ce4b08ffac1239bf6?section=australia)

But it's easier to talk tough when the victims are abroad.  If it hits the US, it will be a lot messier.  Maybe a vaccine will be released in time to defuse this GOP bomb.

Do some Googling Mav, the Zika virus is a big snow job......
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 11, 2016, 08:56:51 am
The first hit says Obama has committed $1.8b to fighting it.  Perhaps you could point me in the right direction ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on February 11, 2016, 09:05:38 am
Do some Googling Mav, the Zika virus is a big snow job......

Maybe you should read a bit more on the topic.

Zika is feared because of serious congenital birth defects it can cause in babies born to mothers who carried the infection.

The situation is so bad in some parts of South America, the authorities have asked couples to delay planned pregnancies and take measures to prevent unplanned pregnancies for the next 12 months.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on February 11, 2016, 09:32:00 am
Maybe you should read a bit more on the topic.

Zika is feared because of serious congenital birth defects it can cause in babies born to mothers who carried the infection.

The situation is so bad in some parts of South America, the authorities have asked couples to delay planned pregnancies and take measures to prevent unplanned pregnancies for the next 12 months.

1. the virus has been around/known about since the 1940s. It causes mild flu like symptoms for a few days - all well known by the science community.

2. In the US, there are 25000 cases annually. In Brazil, the recent numbers are nowhere near that...

3. The causes are widespread, including a simple but severe trauma.

4. Re the recent blah blah about the risk of increased microcephaly......well the jury is very very much out. The Brazilian thing - http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/02/10/cdc-confirms-link-between-zika-microcephaly-brazilian-babies-who-died/80179898/

Yet note:

Quote
He added that the findings did not prove that the virus causes the birth defect and that more tests are needed before the link can be proven definitively.

And

Quote
"Zika is new, and new diseases can be scary, particularly when they can affect the most vulnerable among us,"
  which is not true.

As for Obama's USd 1.8b request - more money the US simply doesn't have - but that's another story.

Believe there's gold in Fort Knox?

Let's see how this thing plays out. Remember SARS?!

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 11, 2016, 09:45:26 am
Has the virus mutated in a way that now causes microcephaly?  Is there something else which causes microcephaly which accompanies this Brasilian iteration of the virus but one which will follow the virus to the US and cause birth defects in the US?  There's no doubt that Brasil has suffered a significant increase in microcephaly.  The exact vector doesn't really matter.  While there's a chance that the US will suffer the same increase, it will be an issue in the Presidential election which will be held s bit less than 9 months from now, a significant figure when it comes to childbirth.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on February 11, 2016, 10:40:12 am
Has the virus mutated in a way that now causes microcephaly?  Is there something else which causes microcephaly which accompanies this Brasilian iteration of the virus but one which will follow the virus to the US and cause birth defects in the US?  There's no doubt that Brasil has suffered a significant increase in microcephaly.  The exact vector doesn't really matter.  While there's a chance that the US will suffer the same increase, it will be an issue in the Presidential election which will be held s bit less than 9 months from now, a significant figure when it comes to childbirth.

Quote
There's no doubt that Brasil has suffered a significant increase in microcephaly.

Really?

Show me the numbers Mav....or was the record keeping/taking just sloppy or non existent previously?

An S or a Z - that is the question! :)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 11, 2016, 11:40:44 am
I've noticed a weird trend on this site.  Discussions or debates usually involve people putting their best arguments forward immediately and then discussing the merits of them.  But on here, "discussions" are like poker games where cards are kept close to the chest.  Instead of just saying, "You're wrong because of X, Y and Z", posters are instead saying, "You're wrong but I'm not going to tell you why - you'll have to figure it out yourself".  Then follows a tedious exchange before said poster relents and starts to engage.  Is the idea to build up some dramatic tension? In any event, I wish it would stop and people would get down to tin tacks quickly.  I'm not interested in being a devil's advocate and I'm not intent on winning a debate at all costs.  If someone else has a good point to make, I want to hear it.

I'm willing to wait for further medical and epidemiological developments which unfortunately will take time to occur.  At the political level, though, the possibility that the Zika virus might invade the US and leave widespread birth defects in its wake will raise the issues of climate change and abortion.  After all, even if this scare turns out to be a non-event, there will always be the possibility that real dangers will follow in its wake.  After all, the ISIS attacks in Paris and the attack by ISIS admirers in San Bernadino haven't led to anything more recently, yet the hysteria inspired by them continues to be a real election issue.  For middle America, a personal question would be asked about what should be done if a loved one contracts a virus which may create birth defects which will create lifelong impacts on the whole family.  People are uncomfortable when told that they can do all the right things but still be dealt a bad hand, as with cancer. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on February 11, 2016, 11:47:44 am
I would just listen to the experts and not scribes with political agendas.

http://www.who.int/emergencies/zika-virus/situation-report/en/

http://www.who.int/features/qa/zika-pregnancy/en/
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on February 11, 2016, 12:19:42 pm
I would just listen to the experts and not scribes with political agendas.

http://www.who.int/emergencies/zika-virus/situation-report/en/

http://www.who.int/features/qa/zika-pregnancy/en/

Heck, for sure a UN body wouldn't have a political agenda!

IPCC anyone?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 11, 2016, 12:28:20 pm
Are you suggesting the IPCC should be even-handed when 97% of climate scientists support the climate change  model?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 11, 2016, 12:39:35 pm
http://www.theage.com.au/world/zika-catholic-church-urged-to-rethink-abortion-over-the-outbreak-20160210-gmqx2f.html (http://www.theage.com.au/world/zika-catholic-church-urged-to-rethink-abortion-over-the-outbreak-20160210-gmqx2f.html)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on February 11, 2016, 12:45:38 pm
Are you suggesting the IPCC should be even-handed when 97% of climate scientists support the climate change  model?

Very trite Mav. Don't be a follower.... you know that stat is BS.

Do some more homework Mav.

Here's one decent source from a 3 second Google search. http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/11/20/the-97-consensus-myth-busted-by-a-real-survey/ (http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/11/20/the-97-consensus-myth-busted-by-a-real-survey/)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on February 11, 2016, 01:16:46 pm
just to finish that one off Mav, try

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/8/2/024024/meta;jsessionid=F6AB42449095EC798501DCDFB7B8BA67.c3.iopscience.cld.iop.org (http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/8/2/024024/meta;jsessionid=F6AB42449095EC798501DCDFB7B8BA67.c3.iopscience.cld.iop.org)

Funnily enough the relevant stats are 97.1% of the 32.6% of papers that endorsed AGW.

In my world 97.1% of 32.6% = 31.6%.

But heck! We all know about stats!

Quote
We analyze the evolution of the scientific consensus on anthropogenic global warming (AGW) in the peer-reviewed scientific literature, examining 11 944 climate abstracts from 1991–2011 matching the topics 'global climate change' or 'global warming'. We find that 66.4% of abstracts expressed no position on AGW, 32.6% endorsed AGW, 0.7% rejected AGW and 0.3% were uncertain about the cause of global warming.

Among abstracts expressing a position on AGW, 97.1% endorsed the consensus position that humans are causing global warming. In a second phase of this study, we invited authors to rate their own papers. Compared to abstract ratings, a smaller percentage of self-rated papers expressed no position on AGW (35.5%). Among self-rated papers expressing a position on AGW, 97.2% endorsed the consensus.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on February 11, 2016, 01:31:37 pm
Hundreds of Australian scientist's jobs are being made redundant at the moment because they don't believe we need to invest anymore money in proving climate change because it's already proven.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on February 11, 2016, 01:38:53 pm
Hundreds of Australian scientist's jobs are being made redundant at the moment because they don't believe we need to invest anymore money in proving climate change because it's already proven.

What exactly are you saying has been proven MBB?

Certainly, I agree that man does not do the planet any favours vis a vis pollution etc but nothing at all supports a proposition that an increase in CO2 levels cause an increase in temperatures....

In fact, global temperatures (whatever that means - how do you determine an average temperature for the world?) have been static or in decline for nearly 20 years now - all in the face of significantly higher CO2 levels.

Indeed, why is more CO2 a bad things in any event? Why pick on CO2 - after all, it's a cornerstone of all life on this planet!

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 11, 2016, 02:01:22 pm
Intriguing that you'd let a climate change skeptic interpret the figures for you.  At least it wasn't written by Loony Lord Monckton, I guess.

At page 1035, the writers of the study noted that:

Quote
Our findings regarding the degree of consensus about human-caused climate change among the most expert meteorologists are similar to those of Doran and Zimmerman (2009): 93% of actively publishing climate scientists indicated they are convinced that humans have contributed to global warming. Our findings also revealed that majorities of experts view human activity as the primary cause of recent climate change: 78% of climate experts actively publishing on climate change, 73% of all people actively publishing on climate change, and 62% of active publishers who mostly do not publish on climate change. These results, together with those of other similar studies, suggest high levels of expert consensus about human-caused climate change (Farnsworth and Lichter 2012; Bray 2010).

You can choose not to believe climate scientists as being self-interested bandwagonners if you wish but I reckon I'll stick to the experts thank you very much.  And the very study that you rely upon shows that 93% of them are convinced that humans have contributed to global warming. 

Remember that even fewer than 7% of climate scientists actually disputed that there is global warming.  Much of the study was directed to determining how much humans contributed to it.  Just because some climate scientists do not think humans are the primary cause doesn't mean that those scientists regard attempts to limit human contributions as futile.  Your friendly sceptic tried to suck everyone in by painting everyone who didn't say humans were the primary cause of GW as climate change skeptics, as well as trying to disregard the actual scientists who are working in the field.  Naughty, naughty.

Also remember that the survey was of the members of the American Meteorological Society which is only a subset of the relevant fields comprehended by climate science, and only 26.3% of the professional members of the society responded to the survey.

I'm not seeing any serious challenge to the predominance of the climate change model but maybe you can find something better elsewhere ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on February 11, 2016, 02:06:11 pm
Hundreds of Australian scientist's jobs are being made redundant at the moment because they don't believe we need to invest anymore money in proving climate change because it's already proven.

Saw an interview last week of the head of the CSIRO, forget his name, who stated that the focus would be changed from proving that climate change is actually happening to researching into what can be done to slow it down to manageable/safe levels and with a definite commercial bent. He went on to state that there would not be an overall reduction in staff, but I guess the actual skills required will change.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on February 11, 2016, 02:08:56 pm
Saw an interview last week of the head of the CSIRO, forget his name, who stated that the focus would be changed from proving that climate change is actually happening to researching into what can be done to slow it down to manageable/safe levels and with a definite commercial bent. He went on to state that there would not be an overall reduction in staff, but I guess the actual skills required will change.

I'd be far more worried about global cooling if I were him. Far more people will suffer/die in the event of cooling rather than warming.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on February 11, 2016, 02:13:40 pm
ps Mav, I'll take it as a given that your last lengthy rant was your cute way of now saying that you agree the 97% claim is unaldulterated BS.

QED
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 11, 2016, 02:22:12 pm
By the way, why is it even relevant to argue that some or all of Climate Change is natural?  Or that there are other sources of carbon dioxide?

If climate change will radically affect the lives of the world's population, shouldn't we be trying to do all we can to put a break on it?  If that means scaling back emissions and that will have a beneficial effect, then we should do it, shouldn't we?

It's not as though we have made a habit of accepting Nature's interventions with a shrug of the shoulders.  How would the Netherlands have fared if it didn't erect dykes to keep out seawater?  What the hell are those dams doing throughout the world and how did Lake Burley Griffin and Albert Park Lake get there?  Heard of the desalination plant?  Heard of the saying, "If God wanted us to fly, he'd have given us wings"?

Sure as hell, if Lindsay Fox finds that his beachside property is being eroded by rising sea levels, he'll be the first to reinforce his boundaries. 

Should we bother about trying to stop asteroids landing and kicking up dust which will accelerate the greenhouse effect?  Hell no, that's a natural event.  If it happens, then God wanted it that way.

Love the cute intervention of CSIRO management.  Pardon me if I think that the Liberal Government has something to do with that.  First we had the attempt to set up a Climate Change denier in a government-funded school in a WA Uni.  Now we're expected to believe that we can all assume that Climate Change is real and it's now time to do something about it.  Hmmmm.  Shut down enough research into climate change and the Government can start putting money into "clean coal" research as its lame contribution to taking action.  No doubt much money can be shovelled into the amazing little black rock ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 11, 2016, 02:26:28 pm
ps Mav, I'll take it as a given that your last lengthy rant was your cute way of now saying that you agree the 97% claim is unaldulterated BS.

QED
If you want to interpret black as white, then be my guest.  But you'd be better off joining the Magpies as then you won't be too disconcerted by the results!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on February 11, 2016, 08:04:59 pm
That escalated quickly.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 11, 2016, 08:47:26 pm
Not from my perspective.  Obviously, climate change and abortion can be quite heated issues but it's possible to have a reasonably calm debate.  I'd imagine, though, that this would be much harder in the US.

That's what intrigues me about the Zika virus issue as it could well open up both issues.  For now, the Republican candidates can get away with sucking up to the right wing extremists while they are battling away in the primaries and appearing before right-wing debate moderators.  What happens when the successful Republican candidate is forced to debate issues such as reproductive rights, gun control and climate change?

As the fundamentalist Christians and Evangilists are an important part of the right-wing base, it's interesting to note that they have a strange basis for climate denial.  Genesis 1:26–28 tells us:

Quote
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

This "dominion mandate" tells Biblical literalists that climate change scientists are doing the work of Satan.  If God gave man dominion over all of the earth, then surely he didn't seed it with materials which could bring the existence of man into question.  Extracting the oil and coal from the earth is therefore part of God's plan.  Climate science is an affront to God.  The Pope's declaration that mankind had an obligation to address climate change must have annoyed them intensely.

Wacky as this might seem, it isn't the wackiest thing these guys believe.  Young Earth Creationists believe that the earth is only 6,000 or so years old.  They dismiss fossils and other features which are scientifically proven to date from well before that period.  They say they are either frauds perpetrated by Satan or tests of faith created by God.  Hell, at the recent WA by-election, the Liberals under Abbott put up a Young Earth Creationist and he's now in our Parliament. 

And let's not even mention evolution or gay marriage ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 12, 2016, 11:50:24 am
Wow, as if on cue - http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/pregnant-victorian-woman-diagnosed-with-zika-virus-20160211-gms8b4.html (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/pregnant-victorian-woman-diagnosed-with-zika-virus-20160211-gms8b4.html).

This is horrible.  As I understand it, microcephaly is difficult to detect in the womb save in extreme cases.  The mother-to-be must be devastated.  Let's hope Flyboy is right and the virus doesn't cause the condition.  The other thing is that one map I saw indicated that countries in South and Central America had reported an increase in microcephaly concomitant with the spread of the virus but the same thing hasn't necessarily been reported in the Asian countries to our north which suffer from the virus.  Could there be 2 strains?  If so, let's hope this is the less problematic one.

If Australia has recorded a number of Zika infections, it's only a matter of time until the US does too and pregnant women there contract it.

PS: Here's an update which details a new study and also suggests that mutations of the virus are feared by scientists:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/zika-news-pope-contraception_us_56bcc4eae4b08ffac1243664?section=australia (http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/zika-news-pope-contraception_us_56bcc4eae4b08ffac1243664?section=australia)

Quote
2. Autopsy found Zika virus in fetal brain tissue
While the link between Zika virus and the birth defect microcephaly is still unproven, a new study provides some clues to understanding the virus, The Associated Press reports. An autopsy a fetus aborted from a woman who contracted Zika virus in Brazil during her first trimester revealed that the fetus's brain was only a fraction of the size that would be expected at that stage of development. Scientists found Zika virus in the fetus's brain tissue, but not in any other organs. Scientists sequenced the virus's genetic material for future research that investigates the probable link between the virus and microcephaly.

New details are emerging about the infants born with microcephaly. According to a very small study, published in JAMA Ophthalmology, a third of the study subjects, all of whom had microcephaly, were also born with eye damage, including lesions or scars in the retina and optic nerve. It's unknown if the eye damage is unique to microcephaly or if it occurs in the general population. 
...

4. How Zika virus may threaten Africa
Zika virus was discovered in Uganda in 1947, but it hasn’t erupted in an epidemic with possible birth defects in African countries the way that it has in Latin America. But now, in 2016, experts are worried that the virus may return to the African mainland in mutated form, potentially triggering a new wave of infections among a population that had previously been immune to the disease, reports Reuters.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 12, 2016, 12:40:49 pm
Here's the study referred to above, published in the New England Journal of Medicine:  Zika Virus Associated with Microcephaly (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1600651#t=article)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on February 12, 2016, 01:16:32 pm
Here's the study referred to above, published in the New England Journal of Medicine:  Zika Virus Associated with Microcephaly (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1600651#t=article)

Microcephaly is not just hard to diagnose in the womb it is hard to diagnose in the living, the pictures most commonly displayed are extreme cases by it comes in the full spectrum of almost zero visual impact to the versions you see on the news. The current situation is clouded by concerns of mis-diagnosis!

The most recent analysis suggests that it's not even clear there has been a spike in cases when mis-diagnosis and positive reinforcement effects are taken into account. Some are concerned that the story broke through / associated with labs that were known to be working on vaccines for Zika. Further reports are "spiking" in regions which would have naturally had Microcephaly cases in the past but had previously reported no cases, the natural rate is somewhere between 1:100 and 1:1000.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 12, 2016, 01:24:51 pm
Which is why the NEJM study is so interesting.  Finding the virus targetting the brain and eyes of an aborted foetus with microcephaly is bracing indeed.  If the Zika virus and microcephaly were just ships passing in the night, you wouldn't expect that.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on February 12, 2016, 01:45:49 pm
Which is why the NEJM study is so interesting.  Finding the virus targetting the brain and eyes of an aborted foetus with microcephaly is bracing indeed.  If the Zika virus and microcephaly were just ships passing in the night, you wouldn't expect that.

It can be easy to confuse cause and effect. But if you count foetal cases of Microephaly and Zika you must also count cases of healthy babies born with Zika and no Microcephaly.

It may be that Zika is a potential cause of Microephaly, it may have always been that way. But that doesn't necessarily mean there really is a spike in Microcephaly cases, or that increased detections of the Zika virus will means an increase in Microcephaly. It may be that a foetus with Microcephaly is more susceptible to Zika, the cause and effect reversed.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on February 12, 2016, 02:04:23 pm
healthy babies born with Zika

What?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on February 12, 2016, 02:19:24 pm
It can be easy to confuse cause and effect. But if you count foetal cases of Microephaly and Zika you must also count cases of healthy babies born with Zika and no Microcephaly.

It may be that Zika is a potential cause of Microephaly, it may have always been that way. But that doesn't necessarily mean there really is a spike in Microcephaly cases, or that increased detections of the Zika virus will means an increase in Microcephaly. It may be that a foetus with Microcephaly is more susceptible to Zika, the cause and effect reversed.

And why now?

Zika's been around a long time?

If the 'issue' is real, perhaps other environmental factors involved too?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on February 12, 2016, 02:33:28 pm
What?

Apparently only a fraction of Zika infections have detectable effects, many people have Zika including expecting mothers and have no effects other than headaches or flu like symptoms. People can carry Zika and not know it.

By the same token, it's expected that there are many more people with microcephaly than are actually diagnosed.

Anyway it best that people read the latest reports being published in Nature and Science and not listen too much to breakfast radio or read too many tabloids.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on February 12, 2016, 02:37:31 pm
And why now?

Zika's been around a long time?

If the 'issue' is real, perhaps other environmental factors involved too?

First detected in the 40s.

Why now, the US CDC issued an alert in January warning people not to travel to known infected regions, it wasn't the first outbreak but the press got hold of this and ran with the story.

An environmental factor is more people becoming highly mobile travelers from infected areas. The virus eventually being transported to South America by a host.

We didn't here about it entering the Asia Pacific two years ago, but it did! ;) Universities and Institutes around Australia have been studying it for several years. But when it puts America on the infection list entering via Mexico the world goes berserk.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on February 12, 2016, 03:08:46 pm
(http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/57347641-brett-ebert-for-the-power-in-action-during-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=OCUJ5gVf7YdJQI2Xhkc2QGhrjG2H8FeSEEtc0CASq%2BBB2AgkmeOK8Si5iLe0USDBxQ72zoOZGfwlohb9qqtDkw%3D%3D)

Well his mum obviously wasn't bitten!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 12, 2016, 04:04:58 pm
And here you have the Zika virus, with its birth control and abortion implications, tied nicely into the climate change debate:

Quote
With at least 80% of those infected showing no symptoms, tracking the disease is extremely difficult. The mosquito species that spreads Zika, Aedes aegypti, has been expanding its range over the past few decades. “It loves urban life and has spread across the entire tropical belt of the planet, and of course that belt is expanding as global warming takes effect,” added Farrar.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/30/zika-virus-health-fears (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/30/zika-virus-health-fears)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on February 12, 2016, 04:31:26 pm
Funny thing... My 19 year old daughter who I didn't think had a great knowledge (or even any interest) of US politics walked past the television the other day as the New Hampshire results came through....and said "Sanders, Yes!"

It's not just the American kids who are taking notice of the old bloke.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 12, 2016, 04:47:50 pm
Funny that the kids are treating the oldest candidate on either side (74 years) as a rock star.  Maybe the longevity of rock stars like Mick Jagger and Gene Simmons makes this less of a stretch!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Woodstock on February 12, 2016, 06:06:29 pm
Funny thing... My 19 year old daughter who I didn't think had a great knowledge (or even any interest) of US politics walked past the television the other day as the New Hampshire results came through....and said "Sanders, Yes!"

It's not just the American kids who are taking notice of the old bloke.

Do any of you read the guardian online or even have the app on their phone? Good reading, ignoring the fact it's pro Clinton, the comments sections are great reading. Also Politico is an interesting read. Interesting too is that more people than I first realised really don't like here - even on the Dem side. Elitist, disingenuous and self serving. And when I watch her, I realise she is the living embodiment of the 1%. She'd sell her daughter to win and say anything to get that power. People like that are dangerous.

Bernie for me.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 14, 2016, 12:02:31 pm
Wow, a Tampa event has just occurred!

Associate Justice Antonio Scalia has just died.  It is rare for a Supreme Court Judge to die while still on the Bench. 

Shamefully, the Republicans are saying they won't allow Obama to fill the vacant position.  This is just a continuation of a strategy they've employed for years.  There's a backlog of Federal judicial positions that need to be filled and the Republicans have refused to allow Obama's picks to go before Congress.  But it's particularly problematic when it involves the Supreme Court because there is no longer a deadlock-breaking vote meaning that vital cases may end up in stalemate.  There are still 341 days left in Obama's presidency and it would take some time after the new President takes office for the position to be filled.

If the Republicans stick to their word, the Presidential election has just taken on even more importance.  Of course, any half-intelligent voter should have known that this was an issue but the death of Scalia concentrates the mind.

Imagine, issues such as abortion, climate change, gun control, Obamacare, and campaign financing will depend on who fills the vacancy.  And other vacancies will probably open up in the next Presidential term.  Ruth Ginsberg is almost 83.  Affecting the balance of the Supreme Court influences politics will handcuff or liberate the next President depending on his or her political hue.

If I were an American Democrat voter, I wouldn't want to take any risks.  I'd be voting in the primaries for whoever would be most likely to beat the Republican candidate.  If Trump or Cruz can get in and stack the Supreme Court, the US will be radically changed in a way that might take decades to reverse.

If I were minded to vote for Sanders on the basis that a quixotic tilt at campaign reform is worthwhile even if it is bound to fail, I might re-evaluate.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 15, 2016, 09:22:56 am
Some doctors believe that the birth defects in Brazil might have been caused by a larvicide used to suppress mosquitos.  WHO believes scientists will be able to determine causality within a few weeks.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on February 15, 2016, 09:56:15 am
Shamefully, the Republicans are saying they won't allow Obama to fill the vacant position.

Strategically. ;)
(No morals in politics)

If Trump or Cruz can get in and stack the Supreme Court, the US will be radically changed in a way that might take decades to reverse.

The Republicans replacing Scalia After the election (should they win) would just leave the "status quo" because he was more of their persuasion)
It's the Democratic side that would benefit if Obama could get his nomination through before he finished up.
So it will be a case of "can the Republicans hold the line."
Can they get the American people to accept the delay without harming their Presidential candidate.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 15, 2016, 10:36:44 am
If the Senate point blank refuses to give an Obama nominee a fair hearing, the Republicans may also lose control of the Senate.  Congressional elections run alongside the Presidential Election in November.  The Congress is widely condemned for gridlocking government and such a high-profile reminder of this tendency may draw punishment from the voters. 

Interesting to see how Obama approaches this.  He can nominate a moderate or even a moderate right-winger and that will intensify pressure on the Republican Senators to confirm the nominee.  The voters would see a failure to do so as pure bloody-mindedness.  Nervous Republicans would also start to worry if they think Sanders or Clinton will win as they may end up with a far more left-wing appointment under the new president.

On the other hand, Obama may nominate a black or Latino nominee to rally minority supporters to turn out in support of the Democratic candidate.

Obama could even select the nuclear option - he could bypass the Senate altogether.  As Scalia died while the Senate was in recess, he can appoint a new judge directly.  Some commentators think he can even do that after the Senate resumes next week as the vacancy occurred while it was in recess.  The Senate would then need to confirm the appointment by the end of the first sittings.  The Senate may well do the opposite, but it would then have to have a vote to eject a sitting justice.  The Republican Senators would far prefer to be able to drag their heels in considering a nominee and run out the term that way.  Especially if Obama appoints a recently-comfirmed Justice of the Court of Appeals, some of whom were confirmed unanimously, Obama could well say that his appointment had been thoroughly vetted and approved already.  This strategy might help the Republicans in the elections, though, as it would play into their characterisation of Obama flouting the Constitution by bypassing Congress.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 16, 2016, 01:09:56 pm
Funny conspiracy theories being floated now suggesting Obama assassinated Justice Scalia.

A right-wing broadcaster and wingnut, Alex Jones, has told everyone that he can feel it in his gut that this is what happened. No evidence required.

The "smoking gun" facts are that Scalia had no Secret Service protection, a pillow was found on top of his head, a death certificate was issued over the phone without any doctor sighting the body, and there has been no autopsy with the body being embalmed soon afterwards.  The conspiracists have little time for mundane explanations, such as Scalia declining protection given how remote the ranch was, the fact that issuing death certificates without inspecting the body is quite normal in that area because many locations are so remote that it's impractical to require doctors to go to the body, the fact that the doctor issuing the certificate conferred with Scalia's doctor who described his health problems, and the fact that it was the family's call as to whether autopsy would be held.  The pillow point is a bit of a wet squib given that some have the habit of putting a pillow over their heads to block out light and sound and a highly-paid assassin is unlikely to forget to remove a pillow used to suffocate the target.

It's funny to see right-wing wingnuts regarding a family's decision to refuse an autopsy as troubling,  They are all for individual rights and against the oppressive Federal government and yet they don't like th fact that the Government didn't override the family's decision.  Bizarre indeed.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on February 16, 2016, 01:29:22 pm
Funny conspiracy theories being floated now suggesting Obama assassinated Justice Scalia.

A right-wing broadcaster and wingnut, Alex Jones, has told everyone that he can feel it in his gut that this is what happened. No evidence required.

The "smoking gun" facts are that Scalia had no Secret Service protection, a pillow was found on top of his head, a death certificate was issued over the phone without any doctor sighting the body, and there has been no autopsy with the body being embalmed soon afterwards.  The conspiracists have little time for mundane explanations, such as Scalia declining protection given how remote the ranch was, the fact that issuing death certificates without inspecting the body is quite normal in that area because many locations are so remote that it's impractical to require doctors to go to the body, the fact that the doctor issuing the certificate conferred with Scalia's doctor who described his health problems, and the fact that it was the family's call as to whether autopsy would be held.  The pillow point is a bit of a wet squib given that some have the habit of putting a pillow over their heads to block out light and sound and a highly-paid assassin is unlikely to forget to remove a pillow used to suffocate the target.

It's funny to see right-wing wingnuts regarding a family's decision to refuse an autopsy as troubling,  They are all for individual rights and against the oppressive Federal government and yet they don't like th fact that the Government didn't override the family's decision.  Bizarre indeed.

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me  :)

If there's one thing our septic cousins are good at it's concocting elaborate and far-fetched conspiracy theories.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 17, 2016, 11:00:50 am
A Huffinton Post article debunks the theory that larvicide caused the birth defects in Brazil, including a counter to the argument that other nations affected by the Zika virus hadn't experienced an increase in the incidence of microcephaly: http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/zika-monsanto-pyriproxyfen-microcephaly_us_56c2712de4b0b40245c79f7c?section=australia (http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/zika-monsanto-pyriproxyfen-microcephaly_us_56c2712de4b0b40245c79f7c?section=australia).
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 18, 2016, 10:08:17 am
http://m.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/news-features/with-abortion-banned-in-zika-countries-women-are-begging-online-for-abortion-pills-20160217-gmx0ir.html (http://m.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/news-features/with-abortion-banned-in-zika-countries-women-are-begging-online-for-abortion-pills-20160217-gmx0ir.html)

Quote
In more than a thousand emails to Women on Web, a Canada-based group that provides advice and medication for women wanting an abortion in countries where it is banned, the women beg for the pills that are banned by law in their respective countries of Brazil, Colombia, Venezuela, Peru or El Salvador.

Laws against abortion vary by country in Latin America. Some, like El Salvador, outlaw abortion in all cases, including rape and incest. Others, such as Colombia, allow for abortions when a fetus displays signs of a severe deformity -- a narrow exception that abortion rights advocates argue should apply to microcephaly.

Across the region, Zika has thrown predominantly Catholic, socially conservative countries into a sudden and fierce debate over abortion. In some countries, arguments are raging at the highest levels of the judicial system. The mysterious disease could end up dramatically altering women's rights in the western hemisphere.

In the meantime, however, women are writing to Women on Web, asking for pills.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on February 18, 2016, 11:23:18 am
A Huffinton Post article debunks the theory that larvicide caused the birth defects in Brazil, including a counter to the argument that other nations affected by the Zika virus hadn't experienced an increase in the incidence of microcephaly: http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/zika-monsanto-pyriproxyfen-microcephaly_us_56c2712de4b0b40245c79f7c?section=australia (http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/zika-monsanto-pyriproxyfen-microcephaly_us_56c2712de4b0b40245c79f7c?section=australia).

The real problems are that the panic induced by poorly associating the larvicide with microcephaly actually increases the risk of all mosquito carried disease not just Zika.

If you want to read some valuable insights, rather than Weeties packet opinion columnists that earn a living from hits, go to a site like The Conversation (http://theconversation.com/what-are-the-real-risks-of-zika-54113)

Now we have Womens Rights group using Zika as cover to argue the right to abortion, not that I am against this but at least the feminists should man up and step out from under the covers!

If you want to be critical there are just as many holes in the in the Huffington Post arguments including clangers about;
 - Outbreak is only months old, but Zika has been around since the 1940s.
 - Abortions from anomalies in ultrasound detections, but not in utero microcephaly detections which is apparently like winning tattslotto!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on February 18, 2016, 11:47:32 am
Now we have Womens Rights group using Zika as cover to argue the right to abortion

You're on fire today, first Roughead's cancer scars and now "feminist's" rights.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on February 18, 2016, 01:56:24 pm
You're on fire today, first Roughead's cancer scars and now "feminist's" rights.

Roughead's cancer scars, wtf are you talking about?

I've heard rumors Roughheads massive chin arrives at venues by forklift 5 minutes before the rest of him does! ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on February 18, 2016, 01:59:40 pm
Roughead's cancer scars, wtf are you talking about?

I've heard rumors Roughheads massive chin arrives at venues by forklift 5 minutes before the rest of him does! ;)

Nice try.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on February 18, 2016, 03:12:55 pm
Nice try.

You're a very sad individual, no wonder your avatar is so angry. :D

Your post is a perfect example of someone taking an unfortunate situation and applying it to an unrelated matter for personal motives. Just like the feminist think tanks demanding that abortion be legalized in Zika affected areas. Do they really have to associate their cause with a human tragedy just to win a political/religious argument, do you really have to associate your posts with Roughead's serious health situation to make your point?

You've lost the support of most people before you started!

Even the Dawks market his chin!

(http://www.dazthecartoonist.com.au/354_500_csupload_65735008.jpg)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 18, 2016, 05:41:54 pm
Seems you've been learning from the NRA.  Any time there's a mass shooting, you can rely on the NRA to protest that "this isn't the time to make political comments regarding gun control".  WTF?  It's EXACTLY the time to make those points, as Obama has stated every time he has called for action in the wake of recent shootings.

Concerning Zika, it is EXACTLY the time to be calling for a reconsideration of reproductive rights.  These are countries in which even contraception is discouraged or banned. The pro-lifers would prefer to rail against abortions performed merely to save 'promiscuous women' from taking reponsibility for their sexual activities.  But what about married women who have been faithful to their husbands and who face devastation merely because they were bitten by a mosquito?  The Catholic Church and the mostly male politicians are happy to force women, often poor women, to run the risk of giving birth to babies with severe birth defects.  You can bet your bottom dollar they'll do bugger all to help them financially if that fate befalls them.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on February 18, 2016, 07:53:22 pm
Seems you've been learning from the NRA.  Any time there's a mass shooting, you can rely on the NRA to protest that "this isn't the time to make political comments regarding gun control".  WTF?  It's EXACTLY the time to make those points, as Obama has stated every time he has called for action in the wake of recent shootings.

Concerning Zika, it is EXACTLY the time to be calling for a reconsideration of reproductive rights.  These are countries in which even contraception is discouraged or banned. The pro-lifers would prefer to rail against abortions performed merely to save 'promiscuous women' from taking reponsibility for their sexual activities.  But what about married women who have been faithful to their husbands and who face devastation merely because they were bitten by a mosquito?  The Catholic Church and the mostly male politicians are happy to force women, often poor women, to run the risk of giving birth to babies with severe birth defects.  You can bet your bottom dollar they'll do bugger all to help them financially if that fate befalls them.

I'm not religious but I doubt you can claim that the various Churches do bugger all financially to help people in those countries. The stance you take is certainly an NRA style claim like, "The police don't help so you'd better get a gun!"


Quote from: Michael Selgelid and Euzebiusz Jamrozik
The belief that Zika might cause microcephaly is largely based on a recent spike in reported numbers of cases in Brazil. The virus has been detected in the amniotic fluid of pregnant women with microcephalic babies. There is also an apparent increase in the severity of microcephaly (smaller head sizes) in Brazil.

However, estimates of microcephaly cases in Brazil are in the process of being revised down. This suggests there may have been a transition from under-counting to over-counting of cases.

Disclosures;
Euzebiusz Jamrozik receives funding from an Australian Postgraduate Award (PhD Scholarship).
Michael Selgelid does not work for, consult, own shares in or receive funding from any company or organization that would benefit from this article, and has disclosed no relevant affiliations beyond the academic appointment above

The expert advice is that other than extreme and severe cases of microcephaly it's almost impossible to accurately diagnose in utero, it is also reported that the majority of Zika detections in placental fluid have lead to no observable effects in the child. Only a very small percentage have any effects that appear on a wide scale of symptoms many of which cannot be differentiated from other causes like alcohol consumption, rubella and herpes;

Quote from: Michael Selgelid and Euzebiusz Jamrozik
Other possible causes of increased microcephaly – infections such as rubella and cytomegalovirus (a member of the herpes family), as well as malnutrition and heavy alcohol consumption – should also be considered.

The World Health Organisation admits it has not yet been scientifically proven that Zika causes microcephaly.

You haven't read The Conversation links, you wouldn't be making spurious claims about the epidemiology of Zika if you had. I won't be so bold as to claim my opinions, or those dredged from the Huffington Post, are more insightful or valuable than the doctors and biologists who study the disease and have been looking for cures for many years.

Quote from: Michael Selgelid and Euzebiusz Jamrozik
Even if Zika sometimes causes pregnant mothers to have babies with microcephaly, this does not necessarily mean every infected mother would have an affected baby.

Assessing the risks of Zika thus requires knowing the percentage of infected pregnant women who give birth to babies with microcephaly. If this percentage is higher than the percentage of uninfected women (which has not, to date, been shown), it might be safe to conclude that Zika increases the relative risk of microcephaly.

Even then, the absolute risk that an infected pregnant woman will give birth to an affected infant might still be quite low.

Michael Selgelid
Director, Centre for Human Bioethics; Director, World Health Organization Collaborating Centre for Bioethics, Monash University

Euzebiusz Jamrozik
PhD Candidate, Centre for Human Bioethics, Monash University
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 18, 2016, 09:01:13 pm
Yep, I'm sure the Church will pay for child care for years to allow poor mothers to go to work or work from home to help support their families.  Maybe it will pay mothers a weekly benefit so they don't need to work and can concentrate on a disabled child.  Maybe they'll also pay for early intervention services including occupational and speech therapists and physiotherapists.  And Brazil has a reputation for supplying welfare to the poor and needy.  Businesses in Rio even came up with an effective program to reduce the number of street kids.  Maybe, though, hiring killers to thin their numbers wasn't the best way to go.

I would have thought it might be best to leave pregnant women to make their own decisions about what risks they can afford to run.  Priests and conservative politicians who aren't willing to put their money where their mouths are should GAGF.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on February 18, 2016, 09:17:11 pm
Yep, I'm sure the Church will pay for child care for years to allow poor mothers to go to work or work from home to help support their families.  Maybe it will pay mothers a weekly benefit so they don't need to work and can concentrate on a disabled child.  Maybe they'll also pay for early intervention services including occupational and speech therapists and physiotherapists.  And Brazil has a reputation for supplying welfare to the poor and needy.  Businesses in Rio even came up with an effective program to reduce the number of street kids.  Maybe, though, hiring killers to thin their numbers wasn't the best way to go.

I would have thought it might be best to leave pregnant women to make their own decisions about what risks they can afford to run.  Priests and conservative politicians who aren't willing to put their money where their mouths are should GAGF.

Freedom of choice should be available to all women, they should have it and be able to exercise it without scaremongering from wealthy Western civilisations using the poor South American economies as their political lab!

As for all those impending disabilities you refer to, most likely according to the medical experts the same number of babies will be healthy as was previously the case and none of your subsequent argument remains relevant. You are scaremongering!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 18, 2016, 09:28:03 pm
Seems to me that Brazilian women were scared well before First World countries were even aware of the problem.

Don't worry.  In a few weeks, you won't have to cut and paste choice bits from your favourite experts.  Case-control studies will be completed by then and the issue of causation will be resolved for all intents and purposes.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on February 19, 2016, 06:53:08 am
Trump v Pope ;D

http://www.smh.com.au/world/pope-francis-says-donald-trump-is-not-christian-trump-calls-pope-disgraceful-20160218-gmy1q8.html

Might actually play well with the non-catholic Christians ( of which the States has many)

Protestant 46.5% Catholic 20.8%

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on February 19, 2016, 07:53:29 am
Seems to me that Brazilian women were scared well before First World countries were even aware of the problem.

Don't worry.  In a few weeks, you won't have to cut and paste choice bits from your favourite experts.  Case-control studies will be completed by then and the issue of causation will be resolved for all intents and purposes.

I stick by my references to heavily qualified, respected and peer reviewed authors and you can keep reading failed print journos and mummy bloggers at the Huffington.

In bold is your complete lack of understanding of the scientific process. For a definitive answer it will take years or even decades. They are still testing Einstein's theories a hundred years later and only made a significant step forward in proving a major part of it last month!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on February 19, 2016, 07:57:36 am
Seems to me that Brazilian women were scared well before First World countries were even aware of the problem.

Don't worry.  In a few weeks, you won't have to cut and paste choice bits from your favourite experts.  Case-control studies will be completed by then and the issue of causation will be resolved for all intents and purposes.

Ignorance personified.....stick to your legal jargon Mav, half a chance there....
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 19, 2016, 09:08:31 am
LP, are you sure you aren't a spin doctor for the tobacco industry or big coal/oil?  Your attempts to wilfully distort anything that challenges your line is straight out of their playbook.

So, the article I linked was by "failed print journos and mummy bloggers at the Huffington"?  Wow, so you didn't notice the quotes from the following experts:
Nor did you seem to have noticed the reference to the NEJM paper, but, don't worry, I've provided a link in a previous post, so you can have a look yourself.

But kudos to you for brandishing the article by a couple of bioethicists as if it's the Bible.  You know, don't you, that one of the authors isn't even a doctor and the other is apparently a clinician of an unspecified type.  I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I think I'll go with the experts at the front line rather than bioethicists.  But they do contribute to WHO, so that is something.  Speaking of which, did you know WHO has stated that we are weeks away from determining whether there is a causal link, based on case control studies that are underway?

You see, when treating actual patients, doctors need information urgently.  They can't wait for 100 years to see what scientists think at that point.  Research will go on after the case-control studies but if those studies find a causal link then this will be the basis for ongoing medical and government action.  That further research includes genetic research which will take a year or so.  If any further research disproves a link, then programs will change.  That's how urgent medical situations are addressed.

This is also why I couldn't care less about your "medical experts at 20 paces" duel.  I am not backing a horse in this race.  As the race will for practical purposes be over in a few weeks, I'm happy to wait for the result.  If you want to place a bet and cheer home your horse, be my guest.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 19, 2016, 09:44:52 am
Trump v Pope ;D

http://www.smh.com.au/world/pope-francis-says-donald-trump-is-not-christian-trump-calls-pope-disgraceful-20160218-gmy1q8.html

Might actually play well with the non-catholic Christians ( of which the States has many)

Protestant 46.5% Catholic 20.8%
Yep, I wouldn't think it would make much of an impact.  Apparently, a third of Catholics in the US are of Latin American origin and I'd imagine Trump has pretty much written them off already.  The comments about Mexican rapists, killers and drug dealers drew the line very early in the piece.  However, Cuban-Americans are probably mostly Republican voters as they are so rabidly anti-Castro.  If Trump makes a throwaway comment about invading Cuba, he'd probably win them over whatever the Pope says.

It'll be interesting to see whether Rubio will be drawn on this issue as he is a practising Roman Catholic.  He's also the son of Cuban refugees, although his parents fled Batista's Cuba.  Ted Cruz's parents were also Cuban refugees but his father was an evangelical firebrand and Cruz is putting himself forward as a hardline evangelical.

I read an article a while back about Trump giving a speech to the students at an evangelical college, was it Liberty University?  He mangled some biblical references and he emphasised that he's a winner who get's even with those who cross him.  One student asked whether he should turn the other cheek.  He replied that the Bible talks about an eye for an eye.  The author of the article asked the head of the Uni whether his attitude was Christian.  He echoed the eye for an eye line and said that God didn't expect his followers to be weak. We've all seen how hardline conservative Christians in the US are.  I'd imagine that the Pope's criticism would be dismissed very quickly by them.  They are Old Testament "Christians" whereas the Pope is very much a New Testament guy.  Cardinal Pell criticised the Pope for his comments about climate change and he'd probably be happy to back Trump here too.

There was a funny skit a while back in which Jesus read out the most vicious comments by the Republican candidates as if they were his own  :))
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 19, 2016, 10:16:16 am
I have to laugh at this response from one of Trump's campaign staffers:
https://mobile.twitter.com/DanScavino/status/700368610322206720?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw (https://mobile.twitter.com/DanScavino/status/700368610322206720?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)

Very funny!  I can imagine someone getting a clip of Reagan in front of the Berlin Wall and changing it to "Your Eminence, tear down this wall!"
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on February 19, 2016, 10:29:42 am
So, the article I linked was by "failed print journos and mummy bloggers at the Huffington"?  Wow, so you didn't notice the quotes from the following experts:
  • Dr. Francis Collins, director of the U.S. National Institutes of Health
  • Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases
  • Ligia Bahia, a public health expert at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro
  • Dr. Ian Musgrave, neurotoxicologist and toxicologist, University of Adelaide
Nor did you seem to have noticed the reference to the NEJM paper, but, don't worry, I've provided a link in a previous post, so you can have a look yourself.

I noticed all the references, and I also noticed after reading almost the entire content of them that the author cherry picked facts from those papers to support their position. Referring to those authors and papers isn't enough for you to become a viable source of relevant information Mav, you have to read and understand them and then think critically!

Reality in science isn't about winning a debate or opinion, it's about facts which you seem to dishonor regularly by ranking them the same as opinion. So I can only surmise that if historically we'd left debating science and medicine to the unqualified fans of the legal system we would probably no longer exist now!

As for the urgency of the situation, it's more a media creation than a reality, like the continued fear of Thalidomide despite knowing the root cause of deformities from errors in the manufacturing process for over 50 years. Errors that were relatively basic by modern standards. So a medicine that can cure migraine, help countless women and people suffering chronic pain remains banned. Mostly because of the fear of lawyers and the scare mongering of the media.

Now we are seeing resources diverted from the study of diseases that are proven to kill thousands ever year like Yellow fever, Dengue Fever, Japanese Encephalitis, etc., etc.. Most of this being based on media scare mongering, the very same feminine primal fears that the creators of the movie Alien used to produce one of histories most fearful creature features, the monster within! What a disservice they do to everyone, mothers, babies and victims of other Flaviviruses.

It's the Zombie Apocalypse Mav, see if you can find a lawyer to sue someone on your behalf, maybe the producers of Walking Dead!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 19, 2016, 10:37:46 am
Let's give the debate a break and reconvene when actual scientists have released their studies.  After all, you can still argue your conspiracy theories then.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on February 19, 2016, 11:12:05 am
Let's give the debate a break and reconvene when actual scientists have released their studies.  After all, you can still argue your conspiracy theories then.

Better yet, go over to a real forum on the issue to test out hypotheses, a forum like the one I listed earlier started and managed by CSIRO and peer reviewed where specialists can openly criticise and discuss blogger articles and their own opinions. They will let you read the lot for free and even answer your questions. That website was created for the very reason to be a resource that media and everyday individuals can cross check and keep up to date on current science and not rely on the media itself. They will without bias point out the various conflicts of interest in the media reports and published scientific opinions, they will also offer opinions but declare when it is such. They also have to publicly declare their interests to participate, unlike Huffington post. These people will also know much of the material and immediately highlight the cherry picking of facts.

Then you can extend your research to the backgrounds on some of the people making various claims about Zika, Larvicides and other effects. Many come from Anti-GMO, Anti-vaccination, Political Lobbyist Groups, etc., etc..

Of course you could just follow the reports and discussions on a peer reviewed site and ignore the blogger diatribes.

While you are at it you may learn about vectors, a bit about Wolbachia and it's potential for controlling all Flaviviruses might be a useful starting point! Keeping in mind you have to know the position of those who argue for and against the use of Wolbachia, funded researchers, drug company representatives, religious fundamentalists, etc., etc.. Some of whom donate heavily to US political parties, and others whose livelihood depends on the funding of governments! Not every site is equal, not ever site requires disclosure!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 19, 2016, 11:27:51 am
HERE'S (http://www.livescience.com/53749-zika-microcephaly-how-case-control-study-will-work.html) an article which describes what's involved in case-control studies.

Are you still going, LP?  Your're like a passionate fan trying to browbeat an opposition fan about why team A will beat team B.  Sadly, all of that time and effort may well be pointless when the final score is known.  Unless you have the resources of the tobacco industry, you can't influence the findings that will be published.  So, just chill and wait for the studies. 

In the meantime, it's good to hear that the Colombian government has relaxed abortion laws to enable pregnant women to make their own decisions and the Pope is considering allowing condoms to combat the Zika virus.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on February 19, 2016, 11:36:30 am
HERE'S (http://www.livescience.com/53749-zika-microcephaly-how-case-control-study-will-work.html) an article which describes what's involved in case-control studies.

Are you still going, LP?  Your're like a passionate fan trying to browbeat an opposition fan about why team A will beat team B.

Until the real facts are out your all you are doing is placing a bet, making a guess, because your conclusions are not fully supported by the current evidence. If it goes your way I suppose we will hear all about your success just like Caroline Wilson, but if it doesn't will you discuss your failure? But that will be retrospective, even if it goes you way you'll have nothing to credit yourself with than making a correct guess.

Don't offer me your opinions on this matter they are worthless, as are mine, just discuss what the real experts think and do it with some critical thinking. All you seem to do is attack me and avoid discussing the facts as presented by people far more qualified than either of us! It's pretty piss poor of you, it wouldn't hold water in a court, and it exposes you for what you are!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 19, 2016, 11:55:27 am
I'll go with the evidence and the case-control studies will give us the best evidence yet.  If it says there's no link, so be it.  I am not backing either horse but the horse being ridden by causal link is the favourite with the bookies right now.  As for trying to claim credit later on, are you serious?  I am not involved in the research, so how could I?  You might, however, be a loser as you're strongly backing the no link horse.

It's good to see WHO is trying to raise $56m for research into the Zika virus and to help fashion the response to it.  The more information the better.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on February 19, 2016, 12:24:54 pm
You might, however, be a loser as you're strongly backing the no link horse.

It's not my opinion, I'm reporting the position of the bulk of non-conflicted specialists debating the issue, at this stage there is no casual link and some of the earlier claims of strong evidence have already been debunked or retracted. Most are revising down estimates of Zika's influence to being just another minor contributing factor like alcohol, rubella or herpes.

But it won't stop the likes of a Trump winning votes for postulating a fence across America to keep the Zika south of the border, which seems to be the right wing media debate started as a political points scorer and excuse for institutionalised racism with very little to do with science, humanitarianism, Zika or microcephaly.

Zika is already there as it is here, it seems it's been here for years as a mild flu like Flavivirus that nobody bothered to diagnose! There is a good chance anyone who has been to Bali, Thailand, Jakarta, PNG, The Philippines or South Pacific islands already has antibodies in their system. But do you care and are you worried? You along with everybody else has millions of other antibodies floating around inside you that science knows nothing about from pathogens as yet unidentified! Just in the average human microbiota there are billions most of which are unstudied.

It reminds me of the term Junk DNA which was once claimed to be up to 98% of a cell contents, and as each year goes by more of it gets re-categoised and less of it is junk! My guess would be nature is pretty economical and efficient and by the end of the Junk DNA story if 2% is left "as junk" that will be a surprise.

What is of real interest to scientists is why the increase in reported cases, is it a real increase or just because awareness has increased? They cannot answer this question and others definitively on the validity, cause or symptoms. The conclusions drawn by the media on those questions and reported as fact are just guesses and are no more right than wrong.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 19, 2016, 01:05:42 pm
Which is why the case-control studies are so important.  Not only will they address causal links but also examine the legitimacy of diagnoses, the accuracy of the statistics and whether the stage of the pregnancy at infection matters. I note the CDC is sending down a team as well.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on February 19, 2016, 04:49:09 pm
Which is why the case-control studies are so important.  Not only will they address causal links but also examine the legitimacy of diagnoses, the accuracy of the statistics and whether the stage of the pregnancy at infection matters. I note the CDC is sending down a team as well.

The earlier results hinted that the 2nd trimester was the critical period, infection before or after has as yet not been related to microcephaly. This has lead some to speculate that the problem isn't the presence of Zika in the placenta but possibly a reaction from the mothers own immune system that is the root cause. I don't know the reason behind why they think that is the case.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Woodstock on February 19, 2016, 11:27:14 pm
So, I heard there's an election happening???

Can we please get back onto topic and focus on how Bernie can beat "her" and go on to become President? Excellent, thanks. ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Juddkreuzer on February 19, 2016, 11:42:30 pm
So, I heard there's an election happening???

Can we please get back onto topic and focus on how Bernie can beat "her" and go on to become President? Excellent, thanks. ;)

Yeah probably the most off topic thread I can remember that wasn't moved into a more relevant thread.

Back on track....

The Pope rocks!!!! >:D

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/world/americas/pope-francis-donald-trump-christian.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/world/americas/pope-francis-donald-trump-christian.html?_r=0)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on February 20, 2016, 12:09:19 am
Yeah probably the most off topic thread I can remember that wasn't moved into a more relevant thread.

Back on track....

The Pope rocks!!!! >:D

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/world/americas/pope-francis-donald-trump-christian.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/world/americas/pope-francis-donald-trump-christian.html?_r=0)

Funny how your linked article went straight to the Zika virus/microcephaly/abortion issue JK  :)

I still can't believe that the Republican machine will allow Trump to get the nomination but it seems that conservative folk are completely over establishment politicians.  Similarly, the progressives seem to be favouring Sanders over the establishment's Clinton.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Juddkreuzer on February 20, 2016, 12:22:15 am
Funny how your linked article went straight to the Zika virus/microcephaly/abortion issue JK  :)

It went there, but it moved on.. ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on February 20, 2016, 12:53:42 am
It went there, but it moved on.. ;)

I see where you're going with that  :)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: laj on February 20, 2016, 07:07:08 am
So, I heard there's an election happening???

Can we please get back onto topic and focus on how Bernie can beat "her" and go on to become President? Excellent, thanks. ;)

He won't. Reckon Hilary's in the White House now. She easily win the Democrat nomination and in the end I don't see any way known the Americans will vote Trump in even if he wins the Republican nomination.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on February 20, 2016, 08:30:42 am
Yeah probably the most off topic thread I can remember that wasn't moved into a more relevant thread.

Back on track....

The Pope rocks!!!! >:D

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/world/americas/pope-francis-donald-trump-christian.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/world/americas/pope-francis-donald-trump-christian.html?_r=0)

It's most probably because no one really cares about an election that is more theatre than democracy.

I just come to read the comments as I like the American voters have nothing of value to add to this discussion.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on February 20, 2016, 09:04:00 am
It's most probably because no one really cares about an election that is more theatre than democracy.

I just come to read the comments as I like the American voters have nothing of value to add to this discussion.

Yet at the end of the year one of these folk will be arguably be in an extremely powerful position.
We should care because some of the extreme ideas and the basis of their thinking  will largely determine our history (or lack of it :() going forward.
A confrontational President prepared to take it up to say a Putin, or to aggressively test Chinese territorial claims could have serious implications for the way we live.
An isolationist president could have an equal impact.

So where are we up to?
One by one the still large Republican field will drop off.
Pretty much those republicans supporting Trump would be locked in.
What happens with the support of the ''dropouts'' will determine the Republican nominee.

Someone like Jeb Bush whose campaign seems to be faltering may actually surge if he can hang on a bit longer and pick up the support of the dropouts.

I still doubt it will be Trump...Rubio was looking good but he hurt himself with a poor debate before New Hampshire
Cruz looks the most likely at the moment to challenge Trump but Kasich, Rubio and Bush are splitting alternative votes that if combined behind one candidate would be significant.

Hillary is floundering...Sanders has her on the ropes...but the Democrat machine will ensure she gets the nomination.
The thing is that she has a lot of baggage accumulated over the years on which to attack her.

The race is a long way from over....and there's no certainty which party will have the White House when it's finished.

(Just keep an eye out for Joe Biden if things turn really sour for Clinton)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 20, 2016, 09:36:55 am
Remember that the GOP may face a brokered convention: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/contested-republican-national-convention-work/story?id=37003821 (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/contested-republican-national-convention-work/story?id=37003821).

As that article notes, if no candidate wins a majority of delegates and the 1st vote at the Republican Convention goes according to the commitments of those delegates, all the delegates will be released from their commitments and they can vote for whomever they want.  There's a restriction currently that they can only vote for a candidate who has won 8 primaries, but the GOP can play around with that. 

This article suggests Trump would be smoked in a brokered convention: http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2016/02/donald_trump_might_get_smoked.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2016/02/donald_trump_might_get_smoked.html).

The problem for the GOP is that snubbing Trump if he goes into the convention as the leader would almost certainly see him run as an independent Presidential candidate.  That would almost certainly split the conservative vote and hand the election to the Democratic candidate.  Yes, he signed a pledge that he'd support the GOP nominee, but he then stated that this would only be if he was treated fairly.  He then said at one of the debates that he'd back the nominee no matter what, but we all know he'll walk away from that commitment if it suits him. 

I wonder whether the GOP is all that unhappy about the logjam of candidates.  On the one hand, it does split the establishment vote 4 ways at the moment, but it also helps to stop Trump from winning a majority of delegates thereby preserving the party's power over the convention.  If the field thins down to Trump and Cruz, perhaps Trump can win a majority.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on February 20, 2016, 10:02:22 pm
Yet at the end of the year one of these folk will be arguably be in an extremely powerful position.
We should care because some of the extreme ideas and the basis of their thinking  will largely determine our history (or lack of it :() going forward.
A confrontational President prepared to take it up to say a Putin, or to aggressively test Chinese territorial claims could have serious implications for the way we live.
An isolationist president could have an equal impact.

So where are we up to?
One by one the still large Republican field will drop off.
Pretty much those republicans supporting Trump would be locked in.
What happens with the support of the ''dropouts'' will determine the Republican nominee.

Someone like Jeb Bush whose campaign seems to be faltering may actually surge if he can hang on a bit longer and pick up the support of the dropouts.

I still doubt it will be Trump...Rubio was looking good but he hurt himself with a poor debate before New Hampshire
Cruz looks the most likely at the moment to challenge Trump but Kasich, Rubio and Bush are splitting alternative votes that if combined behind one candidate would be significant.

Hillary is floundering...Sanders has her on the ropes...but the Democrat machine will ensure she gets the nomination.
The thing is that she has a lot of baggage accumulated over the years on which to attack her.

The race is a long way from over....and there's no certainty which party will have the White House when it's finished.

(Just keep an eye out for Joe Biden if things turn really sour for Clinton)

Sorry lods, I don't care because even if I did it wouldn't make a difference (or couldn't).
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 21, 2016, 08:48:51 pm
He won't. Reckon Hilary's in the White House now. She easily win the Democrat nomination and in the end I don't see any way known the Americans will vote Trump in even if he wins the Republican nomination.

Hilary is my favourite to win but i reckon she wont want Trump getting through as her opponent...bit of X factor about Trump being such a crazy man and sometimes desperate people turn to someone who is promising miracles and a better life even though they know it has no basis.
My son and his girlfriend are in the USA on holiday and have been shocked at the support Trump has from the ordinary man in the street, I hope Hilary's supporters all rock up to vote and dont get complacent..
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on February 22, 2016, 07:46:24 am
If it's Hilary up against Trump she will get smoked. Sanders is the democrats best bet.


Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on February 24, 2016, 10:38:44 pm
I watched a clip on News 24 tonight exit polling Trump boosters as they left his latest folly.

A woman approached made this statement;

"We need a person like Trump, I'm sick of the world looking at America like it's a joke!"

Really!!!! :o
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on February 24, 2016, 10:59:11 pm
Trump reminds me of that other sabre-rattling presidential candidate from the 60s, Barry Goldwater. He was a successful businessman who managed to win the Republican nomination by being very jingoistic, outspoken and with a lot of confrontational talk directed at the USSR, the evil empire of the time. He had a lot of people worried as to what he might do as president.

Anyway, he was comprehensively rolled in the election by LBJ. Hopefully Trump is just as successful as Goldwater was.  :)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: thrunthrublu on February 24, 2016, 11:18:37 pm
in the end, you get the president you deserve
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Juddkreuzer on February 24, 2016, 11:23:21 pm
in the end, you get the president you deserve

People of the world don't. Stupid rednecked Americans do. God help us if Trump gets up.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on February 25, 2016, 08:36:30 am
People of the world don't. Stupid rednecked Americans do. God help us if Trump gets up.

That's gone from "They wouldn't possibly elect him" to "He's most likely to win the Republican nomination and from there he's a good chance"

Interestingly Mitt Romney has just thrown a little hand grenade into the debate concerning Trump's failure to release his "back taxes"
Is he worth as much as he claim?
Does he give as much to charity as he claims?

A review of his previous financials may be interesting reading and give his opponents some basis on which to attack him.



Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on February 25, 2016, 09:16:17 am
That's gone from "They wouldn't possibly elect him" to "He's most likely to win the Republican nomination and from there he's a good chance"

Interestingly Mitt Romney has just thrown a little hand grenade into the debate concerning Trump's failure to release his "back taxes"
Is he worth as much as he claim?
Does he give as much to charity as he claims?

A review of his previous financials may be interesting reading and give his opponents some basis on which to attack him.

Now he's a real chance, all the dirt than can be thrown will be.......
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 25, 2016, 09:40:48 am
Very disturbing ...

The thinking used to be that Trump had a solid floor of support - 25-30% - but he also had a solid ceiling of 40% or so.  That underpinned the theory that if he could be isolated in a 2 man race his opponent would comfortably beat him.  But he has just polled 46% of the vote, more than Rubio and Cruz combined.

The only hope is that Nevada is an anomaly.  Apparently, polls suggest that 60% of voters yesterday identified as "angry" and Trump won 70% of their votes.  Other primaries aren't quite as angry.  Nevada is the home of Cliven Bundy, after all.

But the wishful thinking hasn't worked so far and it's unlikely to work now.  Trump is leading Rubio in his home state of Florida according to the polls and Rubio was expected to do well in Nevada because he had lived there for some time.  Cruz was hoping evangelicals in southern states would carry him to victory but he has bombed in SC and Nevada.

Another complication is that a few of the primaries are "winner take all" contests.  Trump can therefore win a majority of delegates nationally without needing to get 50% of the vote.  Trump took every delegate in South Carolina and he'll take all of the Florida delegates if he wins in Florida.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: thrunthrublu on February 25, 2016, 12:52:36 pm
Trumps biggest obstacle  is his own party.
He will destroy hillary and he will do it slowly if its a show down














Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 25, 2016, 01:30:35 pm
I want to see a Democrat win and don't care whether it's Sanders or Clinton.  But I just can't see Sanders winning.  In a Trump/Sanders contest, Trump will go after Sanders' self-described democratic socialism.  I just can't see Sanders winning when the swing voters are so conservative.  Clinton is hardly to the left of Turnbull so it would be hard to paint her as a left-wing revolutionary.  For me, the Supreme Court is the main prize and securing a liberal majority will create the biggest impact on US politics. 

I don't see Trump having it easy against Clinton.  Perhaps adverse findings on her private emails might provide manna from heaven for Trump.  But short of that, the Republicans have already been attacking her for so long that there isn't much more ammunition left.  On the other hand, Trump has not been vetted anywhere near as much.  The press has utterly failed to do the honours because they've been distracted by Trump's circus act.  Even the other Republican candidates have been loathe to take Trump on.  Rich Republican donors seem unwilling to fund ads attacking him, apparently for fear of Trump targetting them.  Cruz and Rubio have therefore been attacking each other rather than Trump.  Trump has also been willing to attack Fox News for Megan Kelly's questions at a debate and even boycotted a debate that Fox News conducted because Kelly was to moderate it again.

This won't happen when he has to face the Democratic candidate.  For a start, he won't have the advantage of allowing multiple opponents to take each other out.  The DNC won't hesitate to attack him ruthlessly.  I'd imagine that they are already queuing up lines of attack and they have the advantage of seeing what works and what doesn't in the Republican primaries. 

Let's face it, there will be plenty of ammunition.  He's been bankrupt 4 times, received a Fed Govt bailout in the 90s, and his business ethics are clearly an issue.  Have a look at his attempt to force out an elderly woman from her house so he could build a carpark for limousines servicing a casino he was running.  He's being sued by an investor in a Trump real estate development who found out Trump was only allowing another developer to use his name and face for a fee.  Romney has called on Trump to disclose his tax returns, saying he probably hasn't disclosed them as he probably isn't paying much tax.  Ironically, Romney was hurt in the same way when his tax returns showed he only paid 15%.

Remember also that he's unlikely to win the battle for Black and Hispanic votes.

Unfortunately for the GOP, the vetting process will start for real too late to stop Trump winning the party's nomination.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 26, 2016, 10:41:21 am
Here are 2 articles developing the point that the GOP candidates have failed to vet and challenge Trump:
How The Republican Party Has Failed To Dig Up Dirt On Donald Trump (http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/donald-trump-research_us_56cf2c6de4b03260bf75b395?section=australia), HuffPost, 25/2/16.
Quote
It's no secret that rival campaigns were caught off guard by Donald Trump's ascent in the Republican primary. But the extent to which they are still left scrambling to prevent him from becoming the nominee -- on the eve of the crucial Super Tuesday primaries -- is alarming many Republicans and astonishing rival Democrats.

Multiple Republican campaign sources and operatives have confided that none of the remaining candidates for president have completed a major anti-Trump opposition research effort. There are several such efforts being run by outside conservative organizations. But those efforts are still gathering intel on the businessman after having started late in the primary season, these sources told The Huffington Post. And they worry that it may come too late.
...
Whether the fruits of this late opposition-research push or the investigative work of the reporters themselves, some critical, deeply investigated articles on Trump have begun popping up. On Wednesday, Bloomberg News had a comprehensive look at Trump's troubled international business dealings. And on Thursday, The New York Times reported that Trump had been relying heavily on foreign labor at his Florida resort, in contrast with a campaign promise to create jobs for American workers.

But it is treated as a truism among Republicans that a vast reservoir of damaging opposition research remains untouched. It's a suspicion that Democrats aren't challenging. Indeed, one Democratic opposition research said that they’ve spent the past eight months compiling material on Trump as he’s risen up the ranks. That's actually not a lot of time. Democrats had started focusing on Mitt Romney in 2009 -- a full two years before he ran again for the presidency. But those eight months have produced some good.

That researcher estimated that of all the material they’ve compiled -- court and property records, newspaper clips and videos -- approximately 80 percent of it has yet to surface in this election cycle.

Donald Trump is an evil genius: How he abandoned political strategy and won over the GOP’s bloodthirsty base (http://www.salon.com/2016/02/25/donald_trump_is_an_evil_genius_how_he_abandoned_political_strategy_and_won_over_the_gops_bloodthirsty_base/), Salon, 25/2/16.
Quote
Conservative writer Matt Lewis has called the Republican establishment “stupid and gutless” for failing to attack Trump. He suggests that someone run an ad that tells people how he cut off medical care to a sick infant (his own nephew)—just to get back at his parents.  Here’s what Stuart Stevens says would be a real campaign against Donald Trump:

“The way to beat Donald Trump is to go after the essence of Donald Trump,” Stevens said. “Donald Trump is a ridiculous figure. He’s not a particular business success. Four bankruptcies! He doesn’t have a junior-high-school-level understanding of policy—he doesn’t know what the nuclear triad is. You’ve got to turn to Donald Trump in a debate and say, ‘You’re a ridiculous figure. You don’t know what you’re talking about. And this tariff idea will cost jobs, it will damage the economy, just like you bankrupted Atlantic City.’ ” Stevens recalled that after Vladimir Putin said some nice things about Trump, the candidate arranged his entire foreign policy around a pro-Putin stance. Trump is “like a stray dog,” Stevens said. “Pat him on the head and he’ll follow you home.”

Now, those articles are from left-wing commentators.  But the point is that the Republican primaries are like a preliminary final.  Trump can implement a stunning game plan in it but the Grand Final opponent isn't going to be blindsided if he does the same thing again.

Guys like Cruz and Rubio have avoided taking on Trump because they are competing for the same voters.  Cruz bear hugged Trump from the start, making an effort to be nice to Trump and echo his thoughts.  He hoped that Trump would drop out and Cruz would inherit his supporters.  Rubio has just been scared of Trump humiliating him.  The Democratic candidate won't be competing for the same voters at all.  If Trump goes after Sanders or Clinton, he won't win over their base.  Instead, he will motivate their supporters to turn out to vote. Let's say, for instance, that Clinton beats Sanders.  One of her problems is that Sanders' supporters will spit the dummy and refuse to vote at all.  If Trump attacks Clinton as viciously as he has his Republican rivals and lambasts left-wing principles, that may persuade Sanders' voters to unite behind Clinton.  He may well create a YUGE turn out of Democratic voters.  Failing to vote is a major determinant in an optional voting system. 

Of course, this is also true of turning out Black and Hispanic voters.  Trump boasted of winning the Latino vote in Nevada but few Hispanics in Nevada identify as Republicans - only about 7%.  If he keeps up his rhetoric, he'll turn out the other 93% to vote against him.  The other issue is whether he can inherit the moderate Republican vote.  Outraging them sufficiently may not result in them voting for the Democratic contender but it may result in many refusing to vote at all.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 26, 2016, 10:45:13 am
Duplicate
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on February 26, 2016, 12:32:02 pm
Should Trump win the republican nomination his choice of a potential Vice President would be interesting.
That may go some way to appealing to some of the groups where he doesn't have strong support at present.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 26, 2016, 12:52:37 pm
Seems that Nikki Haley, Governor of South Carolina, is the ideal candidate - female, biracial, executive branch experience, Republican credentials. 

The thinking is that Trump needs someone who has experience in dealing with the legislative branch.  Senators, being part of congressional gridlock, hardly fit in with his contempt for Washington insiders.

A guy like Carson might be useful because he's black but he has no better idea of how to run an executive branch.

The question is whether Nikki Haley would want to run with Trump or whether Trump is willing to forgive and forget.  She backed Rubio in the South Carolina primary and Trump is a famous believer in an eye for an eye.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 26, 2016, 02:02:46 pm
There we go - Rubio has called Trump out on using Polish illegals to build Trump Tower and the Trump University scam.  He even mocked him for just relying on keywords like being a winner and everyone loving him while having no actual plans.  The attack has begun, albeit belatedly.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 27, 2016, 09:52:45 am
Wow, only in America!

Cruz thought it would help to destroy Trump if he pointed out that Trump had said regarding Health insurance that he wouldn't allow people to die in the streets, that they'd be treated in hospitals instead. 

[flash=200,200]http://youtu.be/wPJ1RraYiTc[/flash]
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 27, 2016, 10:35:54 am
CDC confirms Zika in 9 US pregnancies (http://gizmodo.com/cdc-confirms-zika-in-nine-us-pregnancies-1761544493), Gizodo, 27/2/16.

Quote
Earlier today, the CDC said that of the nine cases of US pregnant travelers infected with Zika, one delivered a child with birth defects, though the exact details were not disclosed. In the other cases, two miscarried, two opted for abortions, and three resulted in live births. The two current pregnancies are continuing without known complications. The CDC is also investigating ten other possible cases.

...

“We did not expect to see these brain abnormalities in this small case series of US pregnant travelers,” noted the CDC’s Denise Jamieson in a conference call. “So it is unexpected and greater than what we would have expected.”

HERE (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/65/wr/mm6508e1er.htm?s_cid=mm6508e1er_w) is a report issued by the CDC yesterday and I assume it's related to the one mentioned in the above story.

Interestingly, it appears to confirm that the brain defects in one of the live births included severe microcephaly and it also suggests that one of the abortions followed medical advice that the foetus suffered from severe brain atrophy amongst other things:
Quote
Patient B. In January 2016, a pregnant woman in her 30s underwent laboratory testing for Zika virus infection. She reported a history of travel to a Zika-affected area at approximately 11–12 weeks’ gestation. One day after returning from travel, she developed fever, eye pain, and myalgia. The next day, she developed a rash. Serologic testing confirmed recent Zika virus infection. At approximately 20 weeks’ gestation, she underwent a fetal ultrasound that suggested absence of the corpus callosum, ventriculomegaly, and brain atrophy; subsequent fetal magnetic resonance imaging demonstrated severe brain atrophy. Amniocentesis was performed, and Zika virus RNA was detected by RT-PCR testing. After discussion with her health care providers, the patient elected to terminate her pregnancy.

Patient C. In late 2015, a woman in her 30s gave birth to an infant at 39 weeks’ gestation. The infant’s head circumference at birth was 27 cm (<3rd percentile), indicating severe microcephaly (http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/who_charts.htm). After delivery, an epidemiologic investigation revealed that the woman had resided in Brazil until 12 weeks’ gestation. She reported that she had experienced fever, rash, arthralgia, and headache at 7–8 weeks’ gestation. Evidence of Zika virus infection in the mother was confirmed by serologic testing. Molecular and pathologic evaluation of the placenta demonstrated Zika virus RNA by RT-PCR and IHC, respectively. The infant exhibited hypertonia, difficulty swallowing, and seizures, and computerized tomography scan demonstrated multiple scattered and periventricular brain calcifications. Funduscopic examination revealed a pale optic nerve and mild macular chorioretinitis. Newborn hearing screening was normal. The infant was discharged from the hospital with a gastrostomy feeding tube.
If there are further cases like these, I'm sure it will become an election issue.  The Republicans may use it to advocate an isolationist position.  If Trump builds a high enough wall, maybe mosquitos won't fly over it.  They would fix on the need to stop infected Mexicans streaming across the border.  Governor Le Page has already railed against foreigners bringing in "the Ziki fly".  On the other hand, the Democrats will emphasise how much US women will need the help of Planned Parenthood in such stressful times.  As Planned Parenthood does a lot of things apart from abortion, it will be an argument that isn't limited to the right to an abortion.  But the reported case of an abortion following a diagnosis of severe brain defects may not be an isolated case by then.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: laj on February 27, 2016, 12:16:19 pm
Trumps biggest obstacle  is his own party.
He will destroy hillary and he will do it slowly if its a show down

Hilary won't have to work too hard to get in the White House. In the end no-one will vote for Trump as President even if he gets the Republican nomination.

Nearly all the polls have Clinton a mile in front re: Clinton v Trump.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ItsOurTime on February 27, 2016, 01:20:07 pm
Hilary won't have to work too hard to get in the White House. In the end no-one will vote for Trump as President even if he gets the Republican nomination.

No one really believed he would get this far, you just have to look at Obama to see what happens when you start gathering momentum.

Quote
Nearly all the polls have Clinton a mile in front re: Clinton v Trump.

Not sure you can rely on American polls. Besides the wild fluctuations (I've seen from +9 to Clinton to +3 for Trump) which suggest they're not all statistically valid, I'm not sure those polls do a good job at predicting who will bother turning up to vote.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: laj on February 27, 2016, 03:24:44 pm
No one really believed he would get this far, you just have to look at Obama to see what happens when you start gathering momentum.

Not sure you can rely on American polls. Besides the wild fluctuations (I've seen from +9 to Clinton to +3 for Trump) which suggest they're not all statistically valid, I'm not sure those polls do a good job at predicting who will bother turning up to vote.

That's 10 different newspaper polls. The odd one is close, one even with Trump in front, the rest have Clinton WAY in front.

Trump has some novelty value but they won't elect him president when it comes to the crunch. Too important a job to risk Trump, who's not far off the lunatic fringe. Democrats would be well in front no matter who the Republicans put up.

You'll see the USA's first female President.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 28, 2016, 12:46:29 pm
In the wake of Clinton's crushing win in South Carolina, the CNN commentators suggest that Clinton both expects to face Trump and she prefers to face him not Rubio.  Her victory speech twisted Trump's tail twice but made no reference to Rubio.

Meanwhile, Rubio is ramping up his mockery of Trump and that's the most effective way to cut down a puffed-up bully.  He has talked about his horrible spray tan and suggested he sue whoever did that to his face given how much he likes to sue people.  He mocked Trump's statement that he'd like to punch protesters in the face, saying he's not a tough guy and he's never thrown a punch in his life.  He's also talked about Trump flying around in "Hair Force One" while tweeting poorly-spelt tweets. 

My guess is that Clinton would like to see Rubio cut Trump down to size and then she'll hammer Trump on policy.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on February 28, 2016, 01:17:12 pm
In the wake of Clinton's crushing win in South Carolina, the CNN commentators suggest that Clinton both expects to face Trump and she prefers to face him not Rubio.  Her victory speech twisted Trump's tail twice but made no reference to Rubio.

Meanwhile, Rubio is ramping up his mockery of Trump and that's the most effective way to cut down a puffed-up bully.  He has talked about his horrible spray tan and suggested he sue whoever did that to his face given how much he likes to sue people.  He mocked Trump's statement that he'd like to punch protesters in the face, saying he's not a tough guy and he's never thrown a punch in his life.  He's also talked about Trump flying around in "Hair Force One" while tweeting poorly-spelt tweets. 

My guess is that Clinton would like to see Rubio cut Trump down to size and then she'll hammer Trump on policy.

The faceless men pull the strings on both sides of politics, would it be foolish for Trump's opponents to get into the gutter with him?

You have to be  very sceptical of the US system, the lack of transparency allows wealthy benefactors to sponsor candidates from both parties, ensuring their preferred candidate and preferred opponent both make it through the nominations. It's all about the depth of their pockets.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on February 28, 2016, 01:59:09 pm
In the wake of Clinton's crushing win in South Carolina, the CNN commentators suggest that Clinton both expects to face Trump and she prefers to face him not Rubio.  Her victory speech twisted Trump's tail twice but made no reference to Rubio.

Meanwhile, Rubio is ramping up his mockery of Trump and that's the most effective way to cut down a puffed-up bully.  He has talked about his horrible spray tan and suggested he sue whoever did that to his face given how much he likes to sue people.  He mocked Trump's statement that he'd like to punch protesters in the face, saying he's not a tough guy and he's never thrown a punch in his life.  He's also talked about Trump flying around in "Hair Force One" while tweeting poorly-spelt tweets. 

My guess is that Clinton would like to see Rubio cut Trump down to size and then she'll hammer Trump on policy.

Not sure that's a great tactic for Rubio.

Commentators seem to think it is.
The thinking is that he had tor try something.....that he had to go on the attack.... but attack his policies not his physical features

He comes off, as Trump describes him as a "nasty little guy"...it's not Presidential to try and "out trump" Trump.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 28, 2016, 03:12:39 pm
What policies?  That's like attacking a cloud with your fists.

He says X in one debate and then says Y in the next.  When challenged that he said X before, he denies it.  He doesn't care about consistency with previous comments or internal consistency in what he says on any particular occasion.  For instance, he said it wouldn't be sensible to say that he's pro-Israeli as he wants to be able to broker a deal with the Palestinians and asserting a bias would undermine his ability to do so.  The very next thing out of his mouth was that there's no one who is more pro-Israeli than him  ::). So which policy position should Rubio attack?  He says Planned Parenthood does really good things for women and should be praised.  But then he immediately says that Planned Parenthood should be defunded because it does abortions and he's pro-life.  So which position should Rubio attack?  If he's attacked on anything he's said on the campaign trail, he can honestly claim he said the opposite at some point.  The only way for Republican candidates to take him on is to undercut his alpha male status. But you're right that doing so is a kind of mutually-assured destruction.  Chris Christie had his best moment when he humiliated Rubio but he didn't gain any benefit from it.  At the very next primary, he did poorly and bowed out of the race.  He helped Trump and Cruz but not himself.

I'm happy with this, though.  I want Rubio to knock the stuffing out of Trump and then leave it to Clinton to finish the job.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on February 29, 2016, 03:05:11 pm
Quote
This guy bankrupted a casino. How do you bankrupt a casino?
Rubio on Trump  ^-^

That's one of the funniest lines I've heard in ages.  Even Stephen Colbert would be jealous, assuming Rubio didn't steal it from him.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on February 29, 2016, 05:13:46 pm
[flash=500,400]https://www.youtube.com/v/I0tE6T-ecmg[/flash]
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on March 10, 2016, 07:21:55 am
"Little Marco" has shot himself in the foot by trying to be something he wasn't.
You can't out-Trump Trump
Rubio has exposed his own inadequacies and unless he can pull off an unlikely win in his home state of Florida it's "Exit stage right." for Marco.

Meanwhile Trump keeps rolling along despite being opposed by...... well just about everyone.

I'm no Trump fan, and it is politics so there's nothing to be done about it (and Donald adds his own fuel to the fire)..... but one of the concerns about this politics of personality and demonising of a candidate in the States is there are no shortage of 'nut jobs' who might look to other options to stop their campaign.


Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on March 10, 2016, 07:37:19 am
"Little Marco" has shot himself in the foot by trying to be something he wasn't.
You can't out-Trump Trump
Rubio has exposed his own inadequacies and unless he can pull off an unlikely win in his home state of Florida it's "Exit stage right." for Marco.

Meanwhile Trump keeps rolling along despite being opposed by...... well just about everyone.

I'm no Trump fan, and it is politics so there's nothing to be done about it (and Donald adds his own fuel to the fire)..... but one of the concerns about this politics of personality and demonising of a candidate in the States is there are no shortage of 'nut jobs' who might look to other options to stop their campaign.

Trump will be dealt with (collateral damage) if he gets too close to securing the nomination.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on March 10, 2016, 10:31:32 am
Good for the Dems that Rubio is just about dead.  He is an impressive orator.  Yes, in part that may have been because he recycled his stump speech.  Nevertheless, he has a machine-gun delivery which is pretty impressive.  Being young and Latino may have made an interesting contrast to Hillary and Bernie.  I suspect he might be losing his hair and this, together with being only 178cm (Trump mocked him for wearing high-heeled boots), probably makes it hard for him to make it in future.  Being tall with a full head of hair is just about a minimal requirement for an aspiring President.  Trump is tall, even if his combover suggests he might be follicularly challenged.

The perfect result for the Dems would be Cruz winning the nomination.  He is an unlikeable extremist. He rode into the Senate on the coat tails of the Tea Party revolt in 2010.  He has tried to prove his Tea Party credentials by continually criticising any attempts by Republicans to reach favourable compromises with Obama and the Congressional Dems.  In particular, he led a failed attempt to shut down the government rather than negotiate the budget.  He boasts of being inflexibly hard-right on every issue, from getting rid of their pale version of our Medicare system to abortion to wholesale spending cuts to gun rights.  This is the guy who attacked Trump for saying that he'd make sure sick people didn't die in the streets because to him this suggested Trump didn't have the ideological purity required to let the cards fall where they may.

He is also far from charismatic.  I loath Trump but he has charisma to spare.  Rubio and Trump have both attacked him for being a liar and Trump just calls him "Lying Ted".  This means he could hardly take advantage of Hillary's perceived trust deficit.  A psych professor has even speculated that the fact that his lips turn down at the corners creates an impression that he holds the public in contempt, eliciting a general desire to punch him in the face.

His ideological extremism would be a disaster in a general election.  He thinks that the public's appetite for a disruptor will see them flock to him.  But Trump and Sanders have shown that this appetite doesn't have much to do with a desire for a hard-right revolt.  Rubio and Cruz have attacked Trump for being too liberal on abortion and health care but those attacks have backfired.  Trump's "movement" is very different to the Tea Party.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Peter Brady on March 10, 2016, 12:05:58 pm
(https://i.imgflip.com/zdt2i.jpg)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on March 10, 2016, 12:19:19 pm
John Kasich seems to be the quiet achiever, he could benefit the most from other candidates stepping out of the race, if he can survive long enough.

If I were Clinton I think Kasich is the one I would want to go up against the least!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on March 10, 2016, 01:13:43 pm
John Kasich seems to be the quiet achiever, he could benefit the most from other candidates stepping out of the race, if he can survive long enough.

If I were Clinton I think Kasich is the one I would want to go up against the least!

Best option for the Republicans....but he has to win his home state of Ohio next week.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on March 10, 2016, 01:57:51 pm
All Hell may break loose if Trump wins the most delegates leading in to the convention but a contested convention nominates someone else.  Trump may well run as an independent Presidential candidate.  Yes, he has declared that he won't do this but we know he is quite prepared to do this.

Initially, I thought that would help the Dems.  It would split the Rep vote and leave the Dem candidate with the most delegates.  But here's the rub - if the Dem candidate doesn't win 270 delegates, namely a majority of delegates, he or she wouldn't win the election. 

What happens then?  The House of Representatives will choose the President!  The representatives from each state will have just 1 vote amongst them and vote on a nominee.  As there is currently a gerrymander in place which guarantees the Republicans control of the House until 2020, it matters not whether it's the current House or the one following the forthcoming elections which will decide.  Either way, the Republicans will pick the new President.

Trump is likely to pull blue collar democratic votes away from Hillary but perhaps not from Bernie while hobbling the Republican candidate. An unelectable ideologue may end up President.

PS: It looks like the House of Reps has to vote for one of the Presidential candidates and can't draft in an outsider.  In other words, the Republican-controlled House would choose between Trump and the Republican nominee.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on March 10, 2016, 02:16:52 pm
I can't believe Trump is never asked to say how he'd "bring back jobs to America".  He talks about bad free-trade deals being to blame.  But he's either saying he'd rip up free-trade deals and bring back tariffs and trade quotas or he'd somehow force countries covered by those deals to renegotiate and take it up the proverbial.  Unless he used the military to force renegotiations, we're back to protectionist policies.  But no one wants to say it.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on March 10, 2016, 02:22:06 pm
All Hell may break loose if Trump wins the most delegates leading in to the convention but a contested convention nominates someone else.  Trump may well run as an independent Presidential candidate.  Yes, he has declared that he won't do this but we know he is quite prepared to do this.

Initially, I thought that would help the Dems.  It would split the Rep vote and leave the Dem candidate with the most delegates.  But here's the rub - if the Dem candidate doesn't win 270 delegates, namely a majority of delegates, he or she wouldn't win the election. 

What happens then?  The House of Representatives will choose the President!  The representatives from each state will have just 1 vote amongst them and vote on a nominee.  As there is currently a gerrymander in place which guarantees the Republicans control of the House until 2020, it matters not whether it's the current House or the one following the forthcoming elections which will decide.  Either way, the Republicans will pick the new President.

Trump is likely to pull blue collar democratic votes away from Hillary but perhaps not from Bernie while hobbling the Republican candidate. An unelectable ideologue may end up President.

Add in the fact that many committed Republicans and Democrats are very likely to not vote at all in the general election should their candidate of choice fail to gain the nomination and it becomes even more of a "dog's breakfast".

This is a likely scenario given the polarising and "different to traditional" nature of some of the candidates.

It's impossible to pick at the moment.


Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on March 10, 2016, 04:57:23 pm
I can't believe Trump is never asked to say how he'd "bring back jobs to America".  He talks about bad free-trade deals being to blame.  But he's either saying he'd rip up free-trade deals and bring back tariffs and trade quotas or he'd somehow force countries covered by those deals to renegotiate and take it up the proverbial.  Unless he used the military to force renegotiations, we're back to protectionist policies.  But no one wants to say it.

They have hinted at that, they want the TPP gone and they want to extend the limits put on trade with China and Japan. But the rub is of course that most of the big China Made import bills are products owned by American companies like Apple, he wants those jobs to exist on American soil, but will they be on American wages?

The US press are pretty much lame ducks, they ask questions that are assumed for a 10 year old audience and that is insulting to 10 year olds.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on March 10, 2016, 05:23:36 pm
No, Trump says he's for free trade.  He tries to say he'll do better deals.  But to do a better deal than one that already exists involves having some negotiating power.  Someone trying to renegotiate an existing trade deal has no negotiating power at all. 

The problem for the US is that one of its biggest economic resources is intellectual property.  That's one of the main things that their trade deals try to protect.  Ripping up trade deals throws away those advantages and would alarm many business interests in the US. 

Trump has hardly had any involvement in manufacturing and I can't see why anyone would believe he has the remotest interest in promoting manufacturing and blue collar workers.  His thing has been property development which obviously doesn't face the same problems.  He's not even doing much of that personally, preferring to licence other developers to use his name.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on March 10, 2016, 08:20:47 pm
No, Trump says he's for free trade.  He tries to say he'll do better deals.  But to do a better deal than one that already exists involves having some negotiating power.  Someone trying to renegotiate an existing trade deal has no negotiating power at all. 

The problem for the US is that one of its biggest economic resources is intellectual property.  That's one of the main things that their trade deals try to protect.  Ripping up trade deals throws away those advantages and would alarm many business interests in the US. 

Trump has hardly had any involvement in manufacturing and I can't see why anyone would believe he has the remotest interest in promoting manufacturing and blue collar workers.  His thing has been property development which obviously doesn't face the same problems.  He's not even doing much of that personally, preferring to licence other developers to use his name.

Trump wants IP protected by returning manufacturing onshore, he stated that in the last major debate. He used the Apple employing Americans example during his reply to a question and referred to making stuff onshore as a way of protecting American technology, that's his idea of doing better deals. But privately he employs Mexicans to work in his hotels and leaves locals collecting leftovers at the back door!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on March 11, 2016, 10:11:31 am
Jamie Gilt for gun sense - oh, the irony  ;D

Good looking but brain dead.  She boasts that her need to protect her child trumps safety concerns.  But she needs protection from her own child after her 4 year old grabbed a loaded handgun lying around the backseat of her car and shot her in the back while she was driving.  As they say, the only way to stop a bad 4 y.o. with a gun is with a good 4 y.o. with a gun.

I can't imagine why strangers would be concerned about a sensible gun activist like her carrying around loaded guns.  Like, what could possibly go wrong?

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRvFRP8MOD4V3HriQPzvC6791iEgxUmALvHQGeqqewA8ptpPNJOVr9KnxkG2Q)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on March 11, 2016, 12:38:44 pm
I'm no Trump fan, and it is politics so there's nothing to be done about it (and Donald adds his own fuel to the fire)..... but one of the concerns about this politics of personality and demonising of a candidate in the States is there are no shortage of 'nut jobs' who might look to other options to stop thmeir campaign.
I think the greater problem is that Trump is dogwhistling to his fans that they should use violence against the press and protesters.  Dogwhistling might be too anaemic a word to describe what he's doing.

So far, there have been 3 outbreaks of serious violence at his rallies, leaving aside frequent manhandling of protesters:
Trump's campaign manager was lucky that the female journo was from Breibart, a right-wing political comment site which is friendly to Trump.  The campaign manager apparently explained he didn't recognise her and thought she was a critic. Briebart has gone soft on the incident.

Trump has said at rallies that he would like to punch protesters in the face and called on his supporters to eject them.  It is well known that white supremacist groups attend his rallies wearing T-shirts promoting their cause.  Is it possible that they'll act?  Why is he so keen to prevent the press photographing or seeing these ejections?

Now you have him orchestrating pledges that are reminiscent of Hitler rallies.

It has all the hallmarks of the infamous calls to arms made by Sarah Palin and others leading up to the Tucson shootings at a Gabby Giffords rally in a shopping centre car park.  Giffords, a congressional Dem, was shot in the head and left with a permanent disability while 6 others, including a Federal court judge, were killed.  Palin had run ads featuring crosshairs and calling for a reload.  Of course, conservatives say this had nothing to do with what happened, just as Trump would say he was just making a whimsical comment as Henry II had once done.

The funny thing is that Trump and his supporters would have no doubt that the inflammatory rhetoric of radical Imans causes their followers to engage in terrorism.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on March 11, 2016, 01:11:29 pm
No doubt there are aspects of Trumps campaign that are inflamatory and also likely to lead to violent acts...(although I do think comparing his pledge to a Hitler salute is drawing a pretty long bow. :D)

I guess the point here is of all the candidates which one is most likely to invoke the passions that would see them as a target of a nut case.
Trump (and some of it is of his own making) is the one who would most likely touch that nerve.....and it would not necessarily come from left or right, Republican or Democrat. There are many on his own side who dislike where the results are heading.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on March 11, 2016, 01:19:03 pm
The most dangerous would-be terrorists in the US are white supremacists and right-wing extremists.  Trump has little to fear from them.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on March 11, 2016, 01:30:30 pm
The most dangerous would-be terrorists in the US are white supremacists and right-wing extremists.  Trump has little to fear from them.

Most dangerous yes, but not the only group.
If you start comparing him to Hitler or a dictator you're talking the politics of extremism.
It's that type of language that places "fear of the possibilities" in the minds of people....and fearful people can react in the same way as hateful folk.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on March 11, 2016, 01:41:58 pm
If it waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on March 11, 2016, 01:45:38 pm
If it waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck ...

It's probably a duck or maybe a goose... but not Adolf Hitler ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on March 11, 2016, 01:59:15 pm
Let's be politically correct and just say he's a racist demagogue who is trying to scapegoat minorities for political gain.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on March 11, 2016, 11:54:11 pm
Bit of a slow burner, but it looks like the Zika epidemic is starting to become an issue: Republican Lawmakers Slam Indiana Abortion Bill As 'Overreaching'; House Approves It Anyway (http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/indiana-abortion-bill_us_56e28901e4b0b25c918184d9?section=australia),11/3/16.

Quote
The bill, called HB 1337, would ban abortions sought because of fetal gender, race or abnormality. If signed into law, women wouldn't be able to seek an abortion because a fetus was diagnosed “with Down syndrome or any other disability.” (Presumably, this would include potential defects caused by Zika virus infection -- the first case of which was confirmed in Indiana just this week.)

It would also allow doctors who perform abortions under such circumstances to be sued for wrongful death.

It seems that the link between Zika and Microcephaly is growing stronger but it also appears that the Zika virus directly attacks the brain tissue of fetuses in the first trimester rather than just restricting the development of the skull and therefore the brain.

The rainy season due soon will exacerbate the spread of the virus.  In the US, warmer temperatures will soon favour an increase in the mosquito population.  The mosquito that is causing the spread of the virus in Latin America is restricted to the southern states of the US but researchers fear a more common mosquito in the US could spread the virus as well. 

The chances are pretty good that a mother-to-be in the US is going to be refused an abortion despite the brain of the fetus being severely damaged by the Zika virus and this will blow up before the first Tuesday in November.  At the very least, the ban on abortions now introduced by 2 states has raised the question of the constitutionality of such bans and made it a political issue anyway.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Juddkreuzer on March 13, 2016, 06:34:02 pm
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/3/11/1499735/-Trump-Rally-No-Joking-Matter (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/3/11/1499735/-Trump-Rally-No-Joking-Matter)

Quote
“So, if you know me or my friend, Seth Quackenboss, then you know that we often get ourselves into ridiculously wacky situations, especially when we're together. Yesterday was one of those days. We decided to drive down to Fayetteville in order to hear a certain orange politician speak. Yes, you guessed it. We went to a Donald Trump rally.

Now, I am not a supporter of Mr. Trump in any way, shape, or form. I'm quite inclined to a certain berning sensation that I've been experiencing for some time. But that's beside the point. The point is, we thought that we were in for a time of jokes and hilarity. And at the beginning, it was. There were a few speakers before Trump came out and they were not well organized at all. They were comical. One man, a veteran, said that he had shed blood on 7 continents. And unless I missed the great Antarctica War, I highly doubt that's true. Let it be known for the record, that I am not against veterans in any way shape or form. I just thought that particular comment was funny. Because I doubt he actually wounded someone in Antarctica. But a more plausible explanation would be that he was doing penguin research and accidentally pricked a penguin and it bled. Anyway…

One speaker also said that we needed to get rid of 911 calls and we all need to handle our problems ourselves. Well...that's highly unlikely. I can't imagine that people will start forgoing 911 calls when their house in burning down in order to try and extinguish the fire themselves. But, ya know, it's a nice thought.

So those were my laughable moments. Trump was about to come out. We had our signs ready. We were going to go all out. Yelling and screaming and whatnot.  Because, why else were we there if not to join the spectacle? He comes out. People go crazy. For the first twenty to thirty minutes I sat there with high expectations of hilarity. After half an hour, my feelings turned extremely grim. I was scared and upset. Let me explain...

Trump basically said the same few things the whole time. He knows exactly what will get a cheer from the crowd and he says it. He mentioned his wall several times. About five or six if I can remember correctly. At one point he said "We're going to build a wall. And who's going to pay for it?" And the crowd yelled, "Mexico!" and then they lost their minds. Now, we all know exactly why this is stupid. So I won't elaborate. It was just very unsettling. He mentioned ISIS several times. About ten. But not exactly how to stop ISIS. Just comments like, "We're gonna get ISIS," and "ISIS is going down." Blanket statements. He did say that for America to win again (any sort of winning, not just against ISIS) we have to go outside of the law and he isn't afraid to do it. And that's unsettling for several reasons. But I'm just reporting the facts. And that was all he said on policy. Completely void of content or substance. Just statements that would get the crowd cheering.
Now, let's talk about the protesters. There were many. I think throughout the hour long rally, there were roughly 15-20 groups of protesters. Some of them were individuals and some were in groups. They popped up throughout the rally here and there. And some of them were yelling and causing a raucous but some of them were just standing there with their anti-Trump shirts or their pro-whoever else shirts. They were all removed. Peaceful or violent.
One man had a shirt that said "Love is the answer," and he was thrown out. Trump's comment on this man was, "And love is very important but I mean, who's making love to that guy?" And my stomach churned. A few minutes later, a woman stood up not far from where the other man was and starting protesting. She was removed. Trump's comment was, "She was with the other guy. They're actually a couple. A *clears throat* beautiful *gagging noises* couple." And the crowd laughed and cheered. It was horrifying.

But out of everything I saw, the crowd was the worst part. I have never seen more hateful people in my life. Everyone was just filled with so much hatred. If a protester had a sign, even the peaceful ones, they would take the sign from them, rip it up, and throw it back at the protesters. Whenever a protester would get removed, the crowd would yell horrible things. Once, after a protester was removed, Trump said, "Where are these people coming from? Who are they?" A lady, sitting not 5 feet from me, said, "Well hopefully when you're president, you'll get rid of em all!" Get rid of them? Get rid of anyone who opposes Trump? It was sickening. I felt truly nauseous. And these people loved the protesters. They loved the drama and the chaos. And Trump fed upon it. It was easily one of the strangest and uncomfortable things I've ever witnessed. I could just hear the horrible things being spoken around me and it made my skin crawl.

Needless to say, there was very little laughter on my part. I thought this was going to be joke...and it was, but for a very different reason.
I implore you, if you're thinking about voting for Trump, reconsider. You are only promoting chaos and hatred. I witnessed it firsthand. And trust me, this is not something you want to see in person. This is not what you want to happen to our country.”
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on March 13, 2016, 07:55:47 pm
Yep.  How ironic he condemns the protesters for denying him his first amendment rights to free speech.  Let's leave aside for the moment that he never actually says anything about policy as the article pointed out.  This is the guy who played protester when other candidates were trying to make points in debates, shouting over them, insulting them and calling them names.  Unless we regard 3rd grader squabbles as free speech, he had no intention of letting any serious debate occur.  Then we have his penchant for penning the media together so they can't report on what his crowd is up to.  Of course, he tells us there were bad dudes punching his supporters but offers no proof of these Mandingos ripped out of the nightmares of white supremacists.  The media certainly can't confirm his assertions and strangely enough he never had his own videographers document these repeated outrages.  How many phone cameras would there have been in those crowds?  Surely, his ubiquitous son would have had one.  While he has the media penned up, he "jokes" about killing them.  But thankfully he hasn't promised to do so if he wins.  No, he only promises to pass laws that will make it easier to sue them if they publish hurtful opinions.  He even says he'll seek to amend the First Amendment to strip down its protections.  Yep, the very same First Amendment protections he says the protesters are preventing him from exercising.  And he is a big fan of using SLAPP suits to punish those who say things about him that he doesn't like, i.e. defamation actions he knows have no basis but threaten to financially weaken the target.  Big fan of freedom of speech ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on March 13, 2016, 08:26:18 pm
The only thing that Donald Trump stands for is Donald Trump and getting Donald Trump elected. An empty vessel I'm afraid.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 13, 2016, 10:26:04 pm
The only thing that Donald Trump stands for is Donald Trump and getting Donald Trump elected. An empty vessel I'm afraid.

60 minutes had a segment on Trump..scary the support he has from Redneck America.....if the Latino section of the population
dont vote then they can start ordering the bricks for the Trump Wall...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Juddkreuzer on March 14, 2016, 12:38:12 am
Most dangerous yes, but not the only group.
If you start comparing him to Hitler or a dictator you're talking the politics of extremism.
It's that type of language that places "fear of the possibilities" in the minds of people....and fearful people can react in the same way as hateful folk.

Lods my late mother in law was a Ukrainian immigrant who was taken by the Nazi's to a workers camp during the German retreat from Operation Barbarossa. She told me many times how people used to laugh at this silly fool Hitler before he rose to power. And to be honest even she was sold on the anti Jewish propaganda until her death. I thought Dubbya was bad but Trump is more dangerous than any potential world leader I can recollect since Hitler. Obama needs to stop him now.

(http://frecked.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/powerful.jpg)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on March 14, 2016, 07:00:27 am
JK
It's a very emotive issue.....and nothing raises the emotions like the fear of another Hitler but....
Conditions in America are nothing like they were in post World War 1 in Germany. The American people are also a much more diverse group than the Germans. The elements of structured militarism don't exist. Scrutiny by the media means a wider range of opinions are able to be expressed, the internet adds to that...The key to Hitler's success was the environment at the time. There may be some similarities in the racist/nationalistic rhetoric but even if Trump was Hitler reborn he would have Buckley's chance of replicating the Third Reich in America.

A much better comparison would be with Joh Bjelke Petersen and the failed Joh for Canberra campaign. Like Joe there will be a time when the Trump campaign will just lose it's steam....there are signs it's happening already as forces align against him. If he does get the Republican nomination under the scrutiny of a general election he wouldn't be able to maintain the momentum. You see he has nothing of substance. If you listen to his rallies it's just a ramble of cliches that wouldn't make up a 30 second grab on the nightly news....but throw in a protester or two and you have a bit of attention.

Trump thrives on that...Chicago the other night was never really an issue. The crowd were pretty much well controlled by the police (only five arrests according to the report I read) and even mingled (even if in somewhat heated debate) around the venue. Very little violence ensued....(although Fox had a few fights on a loop that made it look a lot worse than it actually was :D) and Trump was able to play the martyr.
Who benefited....we'll see on Tuesday (Wednesday  our time.) Will the incident(s) give Trump a further boost....or is it the beginning of the end.

The other issue is...While we're watching the clown are we actually missing the 'devil' that would be the alternative.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on March 14, 2016, 08:22:25 am
I think it's clear that a large section of US society feels like it has lost its prosperity and the country has lost prestige pride and greatness of past years. Trump is tapping into that and using it to create disillusionment with the existing political order.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on March 14, 2016, 10:35:43 am
The other issue is...While we're watching the clown are we actually missing the 'devil' that would be the alternative.

Cruz and Rubio are both right-wing zealots and boast of being inflexible.  In that sense, they would arguably be more dangerous as the President than Trump who wouldn't hesitate to ignore what he said in the primaries.

Cruz, though, is pretty much unelectable.  He's an anti-populist - a guy who is unlikeable and who will only tell you want you want to hear provided that you're a right-wing evangelical nut job.  He won't be able to "pivot to the center" as Americans love to say about nominees facing a general election and he wouldn't necessarily be able to rally Trump's supporters.  It would still be a worry if misfortune overtakes the Democratic nominee and he wins à la Steven Bradbury.  I can't see Rubio being able to win the nomination even in a contested convention after diminishing himself in the attacks on Trump.

Who knows what Kasich would be like?  He has followed a gameplay of being the Simon-the-likeable candidate but what is he really like? 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on March 14, 2016, 11:25:27 am

Who knows what Kasich would be like?  He has followed a gameplay of being the Simon-the-likeable candidate but what is he really like?

Pretty conservative.....

This isn't a bad site.

http://presidential-candidates.insidegov.com/compare/40-47/Hillary-Clinton-vs-John-Kasich

It lets you compare individual candidates from both sides and gives a rundown on their views. You can switch and change the candidates.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 14, 2016, 01:30:09 pm
JK
It's a very emotive issue.....and nothing raises the emotions like the fear of another Hitler but....
Conditions in America are nothing like they were in post World War 1 in Germany. The American people are also a much more diverse group than the Germans. The elements of structured militarism don't exist. Scrutiny by the media means a wider range of opinions are able to be expressed, the internet adds to that...The key to Hitler's success was the environment at the time. There may be some similarities in the racist/nationalistic rhetoric but even if Trump was Hitler reborn he would have Buckley's chance of replicating the Third Reich in America.

A much better comparison would be with Joh Bjelke Petersen and the failed Joh for Canberra campaign. Like Joe there will be a time when the Trump campaign will just lose it's steam....there are signs it's happening already as forces align against him. If he does get the Republican nomination under the scrutiny of a general election he wouldn't be able to maintain the momentum. You see he has nothing of substance. If you listen to his rallies it's just a ramble of cliches that wouldn't make up a 30 second grab on the nightly news....but throw in a protester or two and you have a bit of attention.

Trump thrives on that...Chicago the other night was never really an issue. The crowd were pretty much well controlled by the police (only five arrests according to the report I read) and even mingled (even if in somewhat heated debate) around the venue. Very little violence ensued....(although Fox had a few fights on a loop that made it look a lot worse than it actually was :D) and Trump was able to play the martyr.
Who benefited....we'll see on Tuesday (Wednesday  our time.) Will the incident(s) give Trump a further boost....or is it the beginning of the end.

The other issue is...While we're watching the clown are we actually missing the 'devil' that would be the alternative.

Trump is promising prosperity, success and that winning feeling.....just like Hitler, and like Adolf you always need  a minority group or two to blame...Muslims and Mexicans in this case....
Nothing like a good military build up to get the economy moving as well.....more guns, planes etc means more jobs
I see plenty of similarities in Trump and AH but as you say America is a diverse group of people and there will be no Trump Reich in the States......problem I see is that none of the other candidates are offering any solutions to the issues Trump is raising....building a wall is a crazy idea as is banning all Muslims  etc etc  but there  are no solutions being offered to rebuke this madness just personal attacks on Trump which he seems a master at dealing with....

I think Hilary will win but she will need to do a very good job to keep the next Trump out of office because like AH people eventually look to a messiah to lead them to the promised land....and dont we we all know about messiah's on this forum....the names Denis and Mick come to mind.. ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on March 14, 2016, 01:43:34 pm
Trump is promising prosperity, success and that winning feeling.....just like Hitler, and like Adolf you always need  a minority group or two to blame...Muslims and Mexicans in this case....
Nothing like a good military build up to get the economy moving as well.....more guns, planes etc means more jobs
I see plenty of similarities in Trump and AH but as you say America is a diverse group of people and there will be no Trump Reich in the States......problem I see is that none of the other candidates are offering any solutions to the issues Trump is raising....building a wall is a crazy idea as is banning all Muslims  etc etc  but there  are no solutions being offered to rebuke this madness just personal attacks on Trump which he seems a master at dealing with....

I think Hilary will win but she will need to do a very good job to keep the next Trump out of office because like AH people eventually look to a messiah to lead them to the promised land....and dont we we all know about messiah's on this forum....the names Denis and Mick come to mind.. ;)

Not to mention the makers of bricks! That wall will need a fair few.  ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ItsOurTime on March 14, 2016, 03:39:06 pm
problem I see is that none of the other candidates are offering any solutions to the issues Trump is raising....building a wall is a crazy idea as is banning all Muslims  etc etc  but there  are no solutions being offered to rebuke this madness just personal attacks on Trump which he seems a master at dealing with....

Closer to Pauline Hanson IMO people felt what she was saying was so ludicrous that they dismissed her and the public sides with the person being attacked as it looks like a bunch of pompous asses not giving someone a go. As soon as they began focussing on policy she basically imploded (though still hangs around)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on March 14, 2016, 04:12:54 pm
(http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150616192218-donald-trump-presidential-announcement-supercut-tsr-vo-00000002-large-169.jpg)(http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/552912-3x2-940x627.jpg)
Same vacant look! :o
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on May 04, 2016, 11:03:16 am
Trump smashes Cruz in Indiana and Ted pulls out.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CcqC4y2UkAAv3uO.jpg)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Bear on May 04, 2016, 11:37:04 am
Well... have faith in the average American voter!  :o

I did like how Trump went with the tabloid accusation that Cruz's dad was involved with Lee Harvey Oswald.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on May 04, 2016, 11:41:16 am
Well... have faith in the average American voter!  :o

I did like how Trump went with the tabloid accusation that Cruz's dad was involved with Lee Harvey Oswald.

and then when Cruz imploded he tweets

Quote
Wow, Lyin' Ted Cruz really went wacko today. Made all sorts of crazy charges. Can't function under pressure - not very presidential. Sad!

 :))
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on May 04, 2016, 12:08:13 pm
Can Trump "Make America White Again"?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on May 04, 2016, 01:59:10 pm
I've given up believing he can't win the whole thing.

Folks have been saying that from the start.

Even when he says outrageous things like this morning it has no effect.

I have no faith at all in the average American voter

Trump will win or do well in states that normally go to the Democratic candidate.

Marco Rubio has disappeared since he dropped out of the race, his criticism of Trump has dried up...as a Vice presidential candidate he would assist Trump in pacifying some of the groups that Trump has alienated.
The thing that might give Rubio pause would be if the Trump presidency turns out to be a disaster it would leave him scarred for his own future attempts at the top job.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cimm1979 on May 04, 2016, 02:29:00 pm
As countries elect ever more unworthy candidates I am no longer surprised at who ends up in charge.

Started with Reagan and , until now, I thought Silvio Berlusconi was the worst example of a national leader.

But Trump, trumps him.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ItsOurTime on May 04, 2016, 02:59:44 pm
Instead of letting him suffocate on his own bile, his opponents fed this monstee and now it has grown out of control. Nothing more certain than him becoming president without turning the narrative back to policy instead of playing this out on Trump's backyard.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 04, 2016, 03:13:57 pm
As countries elect ever more unworthy candidates I am no longer surprised at who ends up in charge.

Started with Reagan and , until now, I thought Silvio Berlusconi was the worst example of a national leader.

But Trump, trumps him.

Reckon that Nth Korean Dingbat Kim J jr has them all covered....
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: laj on May 05, 2016, 01:02:22 pm
I've given up believing he can't win the whole thing.

Folks have been saying that from the start.

Even when he says outrageous things like this morning it has no effect.

I have no faith at all in the average American voter

Trump will win or do well in states that normally go to the Democratic candidate.

Marco Rubio has disappeared since he dropped out of the race, his criticism of Trump has dried up...as a Vice presidential candidate he would assist Trump in pacifying some of the groups that Trump has alienated.
The thing that might give Rubio pause would be if the Trump presidency turns out to be a disaster it would leave him scarred for his own future attempts at the top job.

Polls today in the NY Times have Clinton 10% ahead of him. At this point it amounts to a 347 to 191 lead in the Delegate number (270 being the number needed ). Maybe alot of dopey Republican voters but fortunately there's alot more Democrat voters around.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on May 05, 2016, 01:19:46 pm
I was reading today that a lot of Republicans disillusioned with Trump will vote for Hilary in the presidential election.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ItsOurTime on May 05, 2016, 01:47:53 pm
I was reading today that a lot of Republicans disillusioned with Trump will vote for Hilary in the presidential election.

More likely that they would just not vote. Its a wishful thinking analysis anyway. It's exactly the analysis which suggested that Rubio woild get more delegates as rivals dropped out because who would side with trump over the other candidates?

Turns out most of them and with lots on momentum on his side coupled with an ever faltering Clinton at an almost unelectable approval rating (only thing going for her is Trumps' is actually worse)   ot will be a close call.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on May 05, 2016, 01:56:13 pm
A lot of democrat voters despise Hilary, it's going to be a hilarious election.

Trump's advantage is his reputation has been battered for the last year and he's got stronger, Hilary has also sorts of shady criminal stuff going on that will be brought to the forefront when she's up against the Trumpmeister.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on May 05, 2016, 01:58:00 pm
http://www.salon.com/2016/05/04/the_trump_ocalypse_is_upon_us_america_cant_afford_to_misunderstand_what_his_nomination_means/
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on May 05, 2016, 02:01:22 pm
Polls today in the NY Times have Clinton 10% ahead of him. At this point it amounts to a 347 to 191 lead in the Delegate number (270 being the number needed ). Maybe alot of dopey Republican voters but fortunately there's a lot more Democrat voters around.

Yep but according to the Polls a few weeks ago he shouldn't have won Indiana.

Take no notice of the polls.
Trump has consistently turned them on their heads

This now becomes a two horse race and Hillary wont have an easy run.
She's not as popular figure as many outside the US believe, she has a lot of baggage. the fact she's struggling to put Bernie sanders away shows that
Trump will leave her battered and bruised.

A lot depends on whether the Republican Party gets behind him.... and his choice for Vice President could make a huge difference.

I was reading today that a lot of Republicans disillusioned with Trump will vote for Hilary in the presidential election.

Surprisingly for the very same reason there will be Democrats who will vote for Trump...workers who see  firms transferring their businesses overseas and are fearful about their job are one such group.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on May 05, 2016, 02:09:44 pm
The thing about Trump is that most experienced US Political observers are as stunned with this as we are.
If they can't predict it then what hope do we have. :(
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on May 05, 2016, 02:16:23 pm
More likely that they would just not vote. Its a wishful thinking analysis anyway. It's exactly the analysis which suggested that Rubio woild get more delegates as rivals dropped out because who would side with trump over the other candidates?

Turns out most of them and with lots on momentum on his side coupled with an ever faltering Clinton at an almost unelectable approval rating (only thing going for her is Trumps' is actually worse)   ot will be a close call.

For some Republicans, the prospect of a President Clinton is more palatable than a President Trump - not because they like Clinton but because they could fight her on familiar terrain, rather than watching an unpredictable Trump use the power of the White House to remake the GOP.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/im-with-her-antitrump-republicans-are-considering-a-vote-for-hillary-clinton-20160504-gomlx2.html#ixzz47keurtZF
Follow us: @theage on Twitter | theageAustralia on Facebook
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: laj on May 05, 2016, 02:20:59 pm
The thing about Trump is that most experienced US Political observers are as stunned with this as we are.
If they can't predict it then what hope do we have. :(

Polls didn't get Trump's result wrong though.

The other thing you can near bet on is that the Republicans are so fractured that many of their voters, who think he's a loose cannon, will vote Democrats. Many have said as such already. I assume there's many swinging voters like anywhere and many will swing from the Republicans.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on May 05, 2016, 02:26:10 pm
http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/trump-v-clinton-america-now-faces-a-truly-appalling-choice-20160505-gomq2r.html

The poor US voters - a stark choice to be made! Interesting times ahead for sure.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on May 05, 2016, 03:21:01 pm
Polls didn't get Trump's result wrong though.

The other thing you can near bet on is that the Republicans are so fractured that many of their voters, who think he's a loose cannon, will vote Democrats. Many have said as such already. I assume there's many swinging voters like anywhere and many will swing from the Republicans.

The polls probably won't get it wrong a week out from the election either.
But any poll taken now is totally worthless.
Trump has a habit of reversing poll results over a period of time

Any poll taken now doesn't factor a whole range of things.

-How will they go in the face to face general election campaign
-What will happen if the Republican machinery stops trying to block Trump and starts working for him
-Who will be his vice presidential choice and what effect will that have.

All of these factors could have the effect of narrowing any current poll gap.



Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 05, 2016, 04:47:51 pm
The people wanting Trump will actually physically vote for him...the people who dont want him are no certs to rock up on polling day and vote....thats the worry I have.

Imagine Trump and Nth Korea's Kim J shaping nuclear policy in the region... :o
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on May 05, 2016, 04:58:37 pm
We really don't know what we're getting with Trump should he become President....

He could be the ''fruit loop'' we all fear (in which case be very afraid) ....or he could run it like a  business and surround himself with a group of competent people, the best at what they do, and it all turns out hunky dory.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on May 05, 2016, 05:17:54 pm
We really don't know what we're getting with Trump should he become President....

He could be the ''fruit loop'' we all fear (in which case be very afraid) ....or he could run it like a  business and surround himself with a group of competent people, the best at what they do, and it all turns out hunky dory.

Could indeed be a very cunning campaign where Trump is presenting himself as very non-establishment and closely in tune with the hopes and fears of the average American Joe. Once he's in the White House, as you say, he kisses and makes up with the traditional GOP establishment and transmutes into somthing a lot more conventional and orthodox.

The guy is primarily a salesman, hustler even.



Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on May 05, 2016, 05:21:10 pm
The guy is primarily a salesman, hustler even.

And very good at it ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ItsOurTime on May 05, 2016, 06:28:03 pm
For some Republicans, the prospect of a President Clinton is more palatable than a President Trump - not because they like Clinton but because they could fight her on familiar terrain, rather than watching an unpredictable Trump use the power of the White House to remake the GOP.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/im-with-her-antitrump-republicans-are-considering-a-vote-for-hillary-clinton-20160504-gomlx2.html#ixzz47keurtZF
Follow us: @theage on Twitter | theageAustralia on Facebook

Not saying that  this wasnt reported but the analysis is off the mark.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on May 05, 2016, 06:33:25 pm
Not saying that  this wasnt reported but the analysis is off the mark.

Oh, I see.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on May 05, 2016, 06:48:03 pm
Trump is  different
There will be many Republicans who wont vote for him.
There will be many nominally Democrats who will.
..one of the things he is doing is drawing out non -committed independent voters.

The result will be determined by how these factions play out.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: hotspur on May 06, 2016, 02:10:42 pm
We really don't know what we're getting with Trump should he become President....

He could be the ''fruit loop'' we all fear (in which case be very afraid) ....or he could run it like a  business and surround himself with a group of competent people, the best at what they do, and it all turns out hunky dory.
Agree Lods  but with Clinton are we going to get the same wishy washy government like Obama ,who treats his allies as the enemy and treat his enemies  as his friends.She has a lot of work to do ,dont think she is capable
sorry  
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: laj on May 07, 2016, 11:38:56 am
Trump is  different
There will be many Republicans who wont vote for him.
There will be many nominally Democrats who will.
..one of the things he is doing is drawing out non -committed independent voters.

The result will be determined by how these factions play out.

I'm thinking there'll be bugger all Democrats that'll vote for him. They know he's a loose cannon.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ItsOurTime on May 07, 2016, 02:38:53 pm
I'm thinking there'll be bugger all Democrats that'll vote for him. They know he's a loose cannon.

There's polls showing that more Democrats will vote for Trump than Republicans that will vote for Hilary - twice as many in some cases. The numbers also tend to favour Trump if the poll allows for voters not to vote for either party. Not to mention how wildly off the polling has been.

If i were a Democrat super delegate, I'd be looking at Sanders - which is equally remarkable.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on May 07, 2016, 07:26:39 pm
Now Trump pretty much has the nomination in the bag I wouldn't be at all surprised to see something of a mellowing and rapprochment with the GOP.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on May 16, 2016, 01:10:58 pm
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/are-sanders-supporters-ever-going-vote-clinton-if-shes-nominee

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on May 16, 2016, 03:00:04 pm
From the above link...

Quote
One of the most striking—and disturbing—takeaways from Tuesday’s West Virginia Democratic primary were exit polls that found large numbers of Bernie Sanders supporters saying if not Bernie, they would actually vote for Donald Trump next fall.

A little known fact is that the West Virginian state rock is in fact....coal ;D
Clinton's not the flavour of the month with coal miners ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on May 16, 2016, 08:07:14 pm
Why would Clinton worry about what WVa voters have to say about anything?  That's very much a Red State.  In 2008, McCain won it by 13% and in 2012 Romney won it by 27%.  As its 5 Electoral college votes all go to the winner, there's no point bothering about cutting Trump's margin. Clinton merely needed to cut Sanders' margin as the Democratic primaries aren't winner-take-all - pledged delegates are awarded proportionally.  Now the primary is over, she couldn't give a damn about WVa. 

If you want to figure out how Sanders voters will behave in swing states, you don't analyse exit or other polls in a conservative State.  You look at polls in swing states.  Even then, why bother doing that before the Democratic nominee has been chosen?  Of course, Sanders voters are still hoping for a miracle and will say they'll vote for Trump if they don't get their way.  In the highly-likely event that Clinton is the nominee, that emotional blackmail will no longer have any point.  Clinton voters in 2008 were vociferous about refusing to vote for Obama if he became the nominee but came back to the fold when she lost.  Especially if Sanders wins concessions from Clinton regarding her platform, he'll be happy to campaign for her and call on his supporters to vote for her and against Trump.  Senator Elizabeth Warren has a good chance of becoming Clinton's running mate and she's Bernie Sanders in drag.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on May 16, 2016, 09:00:31 pm
The point though is this...There are regional issues that influence results.
The states are very diverse.
To apply a reason for a result in an exit poll in one state nation wide and make a prediction is really fruitless
The USA is more like a group of independent countries.



Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on May 18, 2016, 01:26:34 pm
I know that politics and hypocrisy go together, but really ...

Sanders tries to position himself as an outsider and not a politician, a man of principle.  He has been railing against the superdelegate component of the Democratic primary system.  He says it is anti-democratic and allows the will of the voters to be overridden.  Of course, there is truth to this.  It allows the party to prevent an unelectable radical becoming the nominee as happened when George McGovern won.  Influential party members are thus appointed as superdelegates and make up 15% of the delegates at the Democratic Convention.  They vote as they wish and are not bound by who won their state primaries.

If he were consistent in his views, he would look to the pledged delegates alone to determine who wins the nomination.  But there's no joy in that method for him.  Clinton has a lead in pledged delegates of around 300 and he's not likely to make much of a dent in her lead.  This is the most faithful reflection of the popular vote.

He is therefore resorting to anti-democratic methods to overcome the popular vote.  For instance, his supporters have gone mental at the Nevada convention because it resulted in Clinton winning a slight majority of the pledged delegates.  They say the establishment robbed Sanders of a majority.  Yet Clinton won the vote in Nevada handily.  It appears that Sanders "out-organised" Clinton and managed to ensure that more of his supporters ended up being elected to the convention even though Clinton had more votes.  This is the sort of thing that Cruz did to turn the tables on Trump who won the popular vote.  When the party disqualified a number of Sanders' delegates because they were not registered voters at the time required by the rules, Sanders lost the ability to thwart the popular vote. 

Yes, if there's a system in place, a candidate has a right to take advantage of it.  But by attempting to subvert the popular vote, it becomes difficult to complain that the opponent is denying the popular vote.

He is also trying to argue that the superdelegates should consider themselves bound by the vote in their states.  If all of a state's superdelegates are bound to vote for the winning candidate, then the delegate count will no longer be proportional to the votes each candidate received.  If the superdelegates vote to reflect the proportional vote, then Clinton wins.  I doubt that Sanders would win even if all of the superdelegates went to the winner in each state.  But Sanders has an answer to this.  He says that Clinton's wins in Red States, particularly in the South, should be ignored.  On the other hand, he never seems to discount his wins in states like Alaska and West Virginia which he almost certainly would lose in a general election. 

If Sanders argues that he's entitled to play the system in Nevada as them's the rules, he can't credibly argue that Clinton shouldn't be able to take advantage of the superdelegate system as it is written - unbound delegates who vote as they see fit regardless of the popular vote in their states.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on May 18, 2016, 01:43:19 pm
Sanders' criticism of closed Democratic primaries has some merit.  He says anybody, not just registered Democratic voters, should be able to pick the Democratic nominee.

Some states have closed voting and others have open voting.  Some states such as New York require voters to register as Democratic voters well before a primary.

From the Australian perspective, however, the notion that anyone can vote in pre-selection battles is ridiculous.  If you're a Green voter, good luck to you if you want to cast a vote for who should be the Liberal candidate for Isaacs.  Our view is that each party should be able to select the candidate it believes will best represent it at elections.  The thought that a Green candidate could be foisted on the Liberal Party and the Liberal Party would then have to fund his or her election campaign is laughable. 

The Republican Party failed to have any effective method to stop a non-Republican taking over the party and it now has Trump as its leader who is not particularly Republican in his views.  At least the DNC has a system which gives the party a say.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 07, 2016, 10:40:54 am
Is Trump in the process of blowing up his campaign?  HERE'S (http://www.salon.com/2016/06/06/flustered_frustrated_and_frantic_the_university_debacle_has_put_donald_trump_on_the_ropes/) an interesting article from Salon.  Of course, Salon is a progressive site, probably somewhere between the ALP's left wing and the Greens in terms of political leanings but it's a pretty reasonable piece.

Why on earth would he stake his shot at the White House on a vindictive and racist campaign against the judge hearing the Trump U case?  It seems his skin is so thin that he can't resist going nuclear over attacks concerning his business ability and ethics.  Just as he has a weird thing about comments regarding the size of his hands.  That doesn't bode well for the vicious sort of campaign he has initiated and which Clinton is well positioned to fight.  She will be well-funded and there will be a mountain of material for her to exploit.  Remember, the general election campaign doesn't start for another month and it will last 4 excruciatingly-long months.  They haven't even started on his Mafia connections in the 70s.  How will he react when they call him "The Don" rather than "The Donald"?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on June 07, 2016, 10:48:26 am
It's Time for Hilary to Concede

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/its-time-for-hillary-clin_b_9555422.html

Quote
With Bernie Sanders now slightly ahead of Clinton nationally in the latest Bloomberg poll, it’s time to reevaluate the meaning of pragmatism. Hillary Clinton might be ahead of Bernie Sanders in delegates, but Vermont’s Senator has a monopoly on political momentum. Sadly, his opponent has a monopoly on controversy, and will face FBI interviews in the near future

Quote
It’s time for Democrats to deal with reality, not just allegiance to a political icon, and rally around the only candidate not linked to an FBI investigation, and other controversies. With recent victories and future wins ahead, Bernie Sanders has all the political momentum heading towards Election Day. Most importantly, Bernie Sanders is the only leading candidate with positive favorability ratings in 2016.

Hillary Clinton has negative favorability ratings in ten national polls. When people forget about Trump’s rallies, and the billionaire pivots to his former identity as a Democrat (“I probably identify more as a Democrat”), then the Clinton campaign is in big trouble.

In terms of these favorability polls, Hillary Clinton holds negative ratings by an over 10-point margin in 9 of these polls.

The fact that in 9 out of 10 national polls, Clinton is viewed in a negative manner by an over 10-point margin should worry anyone fearing Trump, or a Republican White House.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 07, 2016, 11:12:00 am
H.A. Goodman is a Bernie Bro from way back.  That doesn't preclude him from having an opinion of course.  And I wouldn't mind seeing Bernie become President.  The funny thing is that he wouldn't be at all out of place in the ALP.  But over there, he's probably too left-wing.  He is a self-described democratic socialist and for Americans that reads as Soviet-style Communist.  He's done America a favour by helping to rehabilitate the democratic socialist tag but I'm sure Trump would love to do a Joe McCarthy on him.

There's a common line of thought that Hillary is a poor campaigner but would make a good president if she were to win the election.  She's lucky she's up against Trump as he may well blow up his campaign.  She's lucky Trump took out Rubio.  He is an impressive debater (in conventional, non-Trump debates at least) and his Latino background would have helped him.  In addition, there would have been a young/old and smooth/stilted disparity that would have helped him.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on June 07, 2016, 03:04:54 pm
There's a common line of thought that Hillary is a poor campaigner but would make a good president if she were to win the election.  She's lucky she's up against Trump as he may well blow up his campaign.  She's lucky Trump took out Rubio.  He is an impressive debater (in conventional, non-Trump debates at least) and his Latino background would have helped him.  In addition, there would have been a young/old and smooth/stilted disparity that would have helped him.

Don't rule Rubio out as a Vice presidential candidate.
He's been very quite since he pulled out of the contest.
For the reasons above he'd be a good "sidekick"

He's not seeking re-election to the Senate.
Despite their differences during the campaign it appears Rubio would be willing to speak in support of Trump at the convention....and although he's said he wouldn't serve as Vice President nothing is a sure thing in this election this far out.

One thing holding him back may be that he wants to have another crack at the top job in four years...and if he's part of a Trump campaign that goes "pear shaped"..... which, as mav points out, is always on the cards....then he might be damaged by any association this time around.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 07, 2016, 05:02:51 pm
He won't get a crack at Hillary, though.  He would only debate the Democratic VP candidate.  Other than that, VP candidates are confined to attending rallies in States other than the ones covered by the Presidential candidates and being a bit of an attack dog to allow the Presidential candidate to stay above the fray. 

The problem is that Trump doesn't want his running mate to do much.  He's already shown that he wants to be his own attack dog and doesn't want anyone else messing things up.  Chris Christie is a stand-in running mate for him atm and all he does is introduce him at rallies and then stand around as the butt of fat jokes.  As someone said, Trump is like a hunter who hangs his prey's head on the wall to display his dominance - a form of ritual humiliation.  Even if Rubio were to go on a whistlestop tour, what would he say?  Trump's supporters don't want to listen to Rubio or anyone else.  They just want to listen to Trump the entertainer.  Trump doesn't have a stump speech Rubio can read out.  The crowd just wants to hear Trump talk about the wall, hurl insults at Hillary, mock protesters, journos and women, and possibly come out with a new outrage.  It's like crowds going to a car crash derby.  Rubio would be a pale imitation.

The other problem is that Sen. Elizabeth Warren may be the Democratic VP candidate.  She's like the smart version of Sanders.  She is also a harsh critic of Wall Street and corporate excesses without being as easy to characterise as a Commie.  She has already taken on Trump on Twitter and Trump hasn't been able to lay a glove on her.  His lame attempt at branding her has been to call her goofy.  She's more than capable of winning an economics twitter storm with him and she would probably just ignore Rubio.  In the VP debate, she may well wipe the floor with Rubio.  But she doesn't have to do so.  No one really pays attention to that debate unless one of the VP candidates makes a howler.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on June 07, 2016, 05:13:33 pm
Trump will be the next president of the USA, barring an absolutely stupendous crash (which of course is also possible with Trump), he will kill Clinton.

He is hated by many, especially women and that was meant to stop him in the Red Neck primaries, but it didn't.

Hilary Clinton is just about as loathed as Trump, but nowhere near as loved. There are a lot of people that believe Trump can be the next Reagan. They believe he can come out strong and take on all the challenges facing America the next 8 years and they are significant.

The economy (apparently because he is a billionaire he will have all the answers here)
China's expansion
Russia's Militarization
ISIS, the Middle East, Worldwide & Domestic Terrorism.
Immigration Controls (legal and illegal)

These are just a few of the issues America consider to be threatening the existence of America... or A Great America.

I think Bernie had a chance against Trump, I don't think Hilary has any. I might end up eating my words here, but Trump was still paying $5 - $6 when he was in front in polls in The Red Neck Primary because people expected the joke to end and people to come to their senses, now they are starting to realise he can win it.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 07, 2016, 09:21:31 pm
Don't rule Rubio out as a Vice presidential candidate.
He's been very quite since he pulled out of the contest.
For the reasons above he'd be a good "sidekick"

He's not seeking re-election to the Senate.
Despite their differences during the campaign it appears Rubio would be willing to speak in support of Trump at the convention....and although he's said he wouldn't serve as Vice President nothing is a sure thing in this election this far out.

One thing holding him back may be that he wants to have another crack at the top job in four years...and if he's part of a Trump campaign that goes "pear shaped"..... which, as mav points out, is always on the cards....then he might be damaged by any association this time around.

Rubio didn't hold back in his criticism of Trump's latest gaffe, but then he was only one of the Republican heavyweights lining up to have a crack at Trump today.  Newt, who was supposed to be Trump's running mate, and Arnie got stuck into him.  Criticising the judiciary is just not part of the American system and I suspect that Trump has finally delivered his own knockout blow. 

If I was a betting man, I wouldn't be backing Trump for the Republican nomination.  Delegates are being asked to withdraw their support in what has to be the most divisive and destructive Republican campaign in recent history.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 07, 2016, 09:55:44 pm
If its based on Politics then I fancy Trump to win as no one rates Hilary's political opinions , if its based on popularity then Hilary Clinton will probably sneak over the line as more people hate Trump...providing they all rock up to vote...
Trump can win some people over with his mad ideas but its seems Clintons best chance is for Trump to shoot himself in the foot .....
My major interest is what the result does to the economy here....the dollar is predicted to fall under 60c next year, house prices will soar and we will have a volatile economy....Trump will have Wall street plummet, drive Chinese trade away from the US and its friends and create massive borrowings in the US to pay for his tax cut policy as he cuts revenue.

His business skills are overated ...he inherited a fortune from his father, has had a series of failed business ventures and relied upon risky property development and a tV show to make money.....we cant afford a US president who runs an economy like he runs his own businesses...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 07, 2016, 10:30:56 pm
Yep, he actually thinks he can run the White House like he runs his companies ::)

One of his brainwaves was that he'd go to America's creditors and tell them they had to re-negotiate or else he'd default on the debts.  He fulminated that the failure of Obama to use this strategy showed how stupid and weak he was given businessmen (including Trump) use this manoeuvre all the time.  He seemed totally unaware that this would crash the $US and wreck the international finance system which relies on the $US being a safe haven.  Millions of Year 12 Economics students (and even most of the Home Economics students) were horrified.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 07, 2016, 10:50:01 pm
If its based on Politics then I fancy Trump to win as no one rates Hilary's political opinions , if its based on popularity then Hilary Clinton will probably sneak over the line as more people hate Trump...providing they all rock up to vote...
Trump can win some people over with his mad ideas but its seems Clintons best chance is for Trump to shoot himself in the foot .....
My major interest is what the result does to the economy here....the dollar is predicted to fall under 60c next year, house prices will soar and we will have a volatile economy....Trump will have Wall street plummet, drive Chinese trade away from the US and its friends and create massive borrowings in the US to pay for his tax cut policy as he cuts revenue.

His business skills are overated ...he inherited a fortune from his father, has had a series of failed business ventures and relied upon risky property development and a tV show to make money.....we cant afford a US president who runs an economy like he runs his own businesses...

We can't afford to have Trump anywhere near nuclear weapons  ::)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on June 08, 2016, 03:21:18 am
We can't afford to have Trump anywhere near nuclear weapons  ::)

That is the Hilary line and I don't think that is going to persuade Americans anyway.. Remember Reagan? And they loved him.

Sure the Nuclear weapons is bloody scary, but it always has been,  the bigger issues are one many have touched on. He could literally BREAK the US economy. Lot's of billionaires have made both very dodgy and very speculative deals and he will quickly find his way of doing business has no real place iin national economics and the budget. Hopefully enough Republicans would 'cross the floor' to prevent anything catastrophic, but you never know in that country.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on June 08, 2016, 08:57:50 am
MIO

The US economy is broke. Terminally.

Have a look at their 'balance sheet' sometime - insolvent is being kind....
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 08, 2016, 09:09:41 am
That is the Hilary line and I don't think that is going to persuade Americans anyway.. Remember Reagan? And they loved him.

Sure the Nuclear weapons is bloody scary, but it always has been,  the bigger issues are one many have touched on. He could literally BREAK the US economy. Lot's of billionaires have made both very dodgy and very speculative deals and he will quickly find his way of doing business has no real place iin national economics and the budget. Hopefully enough Republicans would 'cross the floor' to prevent anything catastrophic, but you never know in that country.

Very true!

My American friends are great people but some of them have some very strange ideas.  Returning to a mythical past in the land of opportunity has some appeal.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on June 08, 2016, 10:42:53 am
MIO

The US economy is broke. Terminally.

Have a look at their 'balance sheet' sometime - insolvent is being kind....

Oh mate I agree with that and when I was living over there it was something I was perpetually worried about that when the ex and I were looking for what state to live in, however...

There is broken and there is Venezuela style debt crisis trouble.
I think Trump has the ability break it well beyond the current mess
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 08, 2016, 11:08:16 am
The US is experiencing "the demise of empire" insofar as it is arguably no longer the richest, most influential world power to the same degree as it was immediately following WWII. It is the longing a return of the benefits of that, especially among blue collar people who have felt the greatest impact from that decline, that will propel Trump's campaign for the White House. They are not concerned too much about him being in charge of their nuclear arsenal especially in terms of it being focused on self protection. The role of unappreciated world policeman (in their minds) has seriously got whiskers on it as far as they are concerned.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Inboltswetrust on June 09, 2016, 09:22:36 am
Trump will be the next president of the USA, barring an absolutely stupendous crash (which of course is also possible with Trump), he will kill Clinton.

He is hated by many, especially women and that was meant to stop him in the Red Neck primaries, but it didn't.

Hilary Clinton is just about as loathed as Trump, but nowhere near as loved. There are a lot of people that believe Trump can be the next Reagan. They believe he can come out strong and take on all the challenges facing America the next 8 years and they are significant.

The economy (apparently because he is a billionaire he will have all the answers here)
China's expansion
Russia's Militarization
ISIS, the Middle East, Worldwide & Domestic Terrorism.
Immigration Controls (legal and illegal)

These are just a few of the issues America consider to be threatening the existence of America... or A Great America.

I think Bernie had a chance against Trump, I don't think Hilary has any. I might end up eating my words here, but Trump was still paying $5 - $6 when he was in front in polls in The Red Neck Primary because people expected the joke to end and people to come to their senses, now they are starting to realise he can win it.

I agree.  I think Trump win hands down.  I actually like him.  He's funny and has a bit of charisma.  Also he wants to get the terrorists big time.  Good. In terms of his war mongering ways, I think we need a strong America, otherwise we could be screwed with the expansion of china.  Go the trumpster. And I got $7 in early markets :)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 09, 2016, 10:03:05 am
I agree.  I think Trump win hands down.  I actually like him.  He's funny and has a bit of charisma.  Also he wants to get the terrorists big time.  Good. In terms of his war mongering ways, I think we need a strong America, otherwise we could be screwed with the expansion of china.  Go the trumpster. And I got $7 in early markets :)

'I'm gonna build a military that's gonna be much stronger than it is right now,' The Donald said. 'It's gonna be so strong, nobody's gonna mess with us. But you know what? We can do it for a lot less.'
Not sure how he is doing it for less, or how he is paying for tax cuts....

There was a bloke who started WWII who had plenty of charisma and liked a strong military....DT also said we should have looked after Saddam Hussain and Col Gaddaffi and had them on the payroll...



Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on June 09, 2016, 10:23:44 am
'I'm gonna build a military that's gonna be much stronger than it is right now,' The Donald said. 'It's gonna be so strong, nobody's gonna mess with us. But you know what? We can do it for a lot less.'
Not sure how he is doing it for less, or how he is paying for tax cuts....

There was a bloke who started WWII who had plenty of charisma and liked a strong military....DT also said we should have looked after Saddam Hussain and Col Gaddaffi and had them on the payroll...

I find it incredibly amusing that anyone could honesly think Trump's "war mongering ways" are any worse than the existing US regime, or many before that, for that matter.

The US has 800 military bases in over 70 countries according to this site......

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/us-military-bases-around-the-world-119321
(http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/us-military-bases-around-the-world-119321)

no wonder they're an economic basket case.
 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 09, 2016, 10:36:48 am
IBWT, your last reason is the only one that has any merit imo.  It's hard to say what Trump would do in the Middle East.  He paints himself as am isolationist who wouldn't allow the US to bear the brunt of other countries' battles.  On the other hand, he says he'd kill ISIS by any means even if it involves waterboarding and killing the families of their members. 

A big theme in his campaign is that he'd insist that European and Middle Eastern countries should fund any military effort and provide much of the manpower as they are most affected by the current insurgency.  Saudi Arabia is the ultimate free rider.  Even when it invaded Yemen, it needed Pakistani troops to do the dirty work.  With the Oil-producing States already facing drastic revenue reductions, extracting money from them will be problematic.

So would he send in troops to fight on the ground?  I'm sure he knows how well that has worked in Afghanistan and Iraq and more importantly the size and duration of such commitments.  He'd also be up against the Russians if he sends troops into Syria.  Would he team up with Putin and Al-Assad to fight ISIS?  Iran is fighting on that side too, so this would very much be a case of strange bedfellows.  It would pit the US against Saudi Arabia which is sponsoring the non-ISIS rebels (and Russia is targetting them more than ISIS).  Even attempting to enforce a no-fly zone in Syria could spark a military response from Russia.

So would he limit himself to surgical aerial bombing?  Newsflash - that's already happening and it's doubtful that there could be any useful increase in these efforts.

Remember, he condemns the US support of the rebellion in Libya which deposed (and killed) Gadaffi.  But when he was reminded that he did support it at the time it was happening and called for Gadaffi's removal, he said they should just have had a surgical strike which killed Gadaffi and his advisers.

Sadly, Trump can't just call in the A-Team or Rambo to fix the Middle East.

There's also the question of whether the Middle East's geo-political importance requires the US to intervene.  Petrol is becoming less important.  The US has increased its domestic production to IIRC 65% of its needs and technological advances both in oil exploitation and alternative energy will see that figure climb.  OPEC has lost its ability to restrict supply and consequently push up prices.  The oil producers are flooding the market and the price has collapsed.  Some Middle Eastern states such as Dubai will run out of oil within a few years.  All of them are already experiencing massive cuts in revenue which may well create internal unrest.  Does America really need to bog itself down in an area which is losing its geopolitical importance?

Of course, there is a humanitarian issue at play in Syria.  But that's also the case in Nigeria and many other African countries.  Boko Haram is their local equivalent of ISIS/Al Qaeda.  Where is the international intervention?  Nigeria has some oil but African countries don't have enough geo-political importance to warrant intervention.

But then you have ISIS' desire to export terrorism and the fact it has caused a flood of refugees which is stressing European countries.  Just how is Trump going to go about limiting their influence?  Even if he does mount a military intervention and it liberates land occupied by ISIS, would that kill off terrorism?  Would it make it safe for refugees to return?' Remember that Iraq is half of ISIS' empire and the US liberated that over a decade ago and the US hasn't tamed the Taliban in Afghanistan either.  The reality is that Trump and ISIS would both benefit from a continuing war of words with each driving support for the other in an increasingly polarised world.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on June 09, 2016, 11:14:31 am
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/07/trump-makes-his-case-for-sanders-supporters.html

Quote
"To all of those Bernie Sanders voters who have been left out in the cold by a rigged system of superdelegates, we welcome you with open arms," Trump said. "And by the way, the terrible trade deals that Bernie is so vehemently against — and he's right on that — will be taken care of far better than anyone ever thought possible." 


"This election isn't about Republican or Democrat, it's about who runs this country: special interests or the people," he said. "Why would politicians want to change a system that's totally rigged to keep them in power? That's what they're doing folks. Why would politicians want to change a system that's made them and their friends very very wealthy?"

"I beat a rigged system by winning with overwhelming support — the only way you could've done it," Trump added. "We can't fix a rigged system by relying ... on the very people who rigged it."
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 09, 2016, 11:27:30 am
There's nothing worse than a politician who claims that he/she is not a politician.  Well, perhaps there is; a politician who doesn't know that he is a politician.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: laj on June 09, 2016, 11:35:51 am
I agree.  I think Trump win hands down.  I actually like him.  He's funny and has a bit of charisma.  Also he wants to get the terrorists big time.  Good. In terms of his war mongering ways, I think we need a strong America, otherwise we could be screwed with the expansion of china.  Go the trumpster. And I got $7 in early markets :)

Not sure, I think Hilary almost has a free pass to the White House being up against Trump. She won't get beaten. Last thing we need is some idiot from the lunatic fringe running the USA.

Wonder if Hilary will get revenge on Bill and find herself a male "Monica"...lol.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on June 09, 2016, 11:40:39 am
Every empire eventually crashes and needs a lunatic in charge to oversee and ensure the crash is total and spectacular.

Then you can rebuild it without the sins of the past... you'd hope.

On the other hand, it's hard to imagine that the FBI, CIA or other secret US agency hasn't got Trump in their sights.

I wonder if there is any truth in the rumour that smart US citizens are heading to Canada and Mexica with the hope that any walls that are built will keep the Yanks out!!!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 09, 2016, 11:41:08 am
Not sure, I think Hilary almost has a free pass to the White House being up against Trump. She won't get beaten. Last thing we need is some idiot from the lunatic fringe running the USA.

Wonder if Hilary will get revenge on Bill and find herself a male "Monica"...lol.

Wonder if Bill would be all that bothered?  :)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 09, 2016, 11:42:59 am
OMG, he is a special interest.  It's like a fox telling the chooks that he'll protect them.

There are at least 2 different groups in Sanders' camp: blue collar workers and pogressive millenials.  Trump may well appeal to the former but he's unlikely to appeal to the latter.

The blue collar workers who have seen their jobs move overseas and have no hope or interest in moving into other types of work may well like those such as Sanders and Trump who condemn trade deals that accelerated that process.  This group can also be quite socially conservative and may share an antipathy to minority groups they might regard as stealing their birthrights.  But would they really believe that Trump would be more interested in helping them rather than the rich?

The millenials/progressives aren't just after an extreme candidate.  They want one who will push their concerns.  Is a self-professed Billionaire the guy to reform campaign contributions?  His claim that he self-funded his primary campaign was a point of difference.  It was also a bit misleading as he loaned his campaign the money and can pay himself back now he is taking money from wealthy backers.  Now, he's raising money and benefitting from SuperPacs just like any other politician.  Would Sanders' 'process activists' think that self-funded Billionaires would answer their concerns or do they want to open up the presidency to those without wealth or wealthy backers?  I think the latter.  Those who want to crack down on Wall Street and corporate excesses and reverse the trend of the top 1% making out like bandits at the expense of the bottom 90% are not likely to see Trump as a saviour.   And certainly those fighting against discrimination against minorities won't have a bar of him. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: laj on June 09, 2016, 11:43:04 am
Trump will be the next president of the USA, barring an absolutely stupendous crash (which of course is also possible with Trump), he will kill Clinton.

He is hated by many, especially women and that was meant to stop him in the Red Neck primaries, but it didn't.

Hilary Clinton is just about as loathed as Trump, but nowhere near as loved. There are a lot of people that believe Trump can be the next Reagan. They believe he can come out strong and take on all the challenges facing America the next 8 years and they are significant.

The economy (apparently because he is a billionaire he will have all the answers here)
China's expansion
Russia's Militarization
ISIS, the Middle East, Worldwide & Domestic Terrorism.
Immigration Controls (legal and illegal)

These are just a few of the issues America consider to be threatening the existence of America... or A Great America.

I think Bernie had a chance against Trump, I don't think Hilary has any. I might end up eating my words here, but Trump was still paying $5 - $6 when he was in front in polls in The Red Neck Primary because people expected the joke to end and people to come to their senses, now they are starting to realise he can win it.

People say Hilary's loathed but she very easily beat a very popular candidate in Sanders. Many a PM has been loathed but they voted in easily because they can do the job. Politics isn't a popularity contest and people know that. Hilary will win very easily.

If Bernie had a chance to beat Trump, but Hilary smashed Bernie, then you'd think with much of the same people voting then Hilary will pump Trump. Many Republican supporters who were anti-Trump and his lunatic ideas will vote for Clinton.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 09, 2016, 11:44:44 am
Every empire eventually crashes and needs a lunatic in charge to oversee and ensure the crash is total and spectacular.

Then you can rebuild it without the sins of the past... you'd hope.

On the other hand, it's hard to imagine that the FBI, CIA or other secret US agency hasn't got Trump in their sights.

I wonder if there is any truth in the rumour that smart US citizens are heading to Canada and Mexica with the hope that any walls that are built will keep the Yanks out!!!

Reminds me of the Kenny Everett observation on this

Britain was once a kingdom and it had a king,
Then it became an empire and had an empress.
Finally it became just a country and Margaret Thatcher was in charge.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on June 09, 2016, 11:55:38 am
Reminds me of the Kenny Everett observation on this

Britain was once a kingdom and it had a king,
Then it became an empire and had an empress.
Finally it became just a country and Margaret Thatcher was in charge.

Hahahahahaha... I so remember that, what a ripper he was....
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on June 09, 2016, 12:06:24 pm
I agree.  I think Trump win hands down.  I actually like him.  He's funny and has a bit of charisma.  Also he wants to get the terrorists big time.  Good. In terms of his war mongering ways, I think we need a strong America, otherwise we could be screwed with the expansion of china.  Go the trumpster. And I got $7 in early markets :)

I don't think he is even remotely charismatic - just another ego maniacal washed up has been giving simplistic "solutions' to complex and long standing problems. His attitude to Islamic states is entrenched in right wing US politics and is guaranteed to foster hatred of the West for generations to come.  
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on June 09, 2016, 12:08:28 pm
People say Hilary's loathed but she very easily beat a very popular candidate in Sanders. Many a PM has been loathed but they voted in easily because they can do the job. Politics isn't a popularity contest and people know that. Hilary will win very easily.

If Bernie had a chance to beat Trump, but Hilary smashed Bernie, then you'd think with much of the same people voting then Hilary will pump Trump. Many Republican supporters who were anti-Trump and his lunatic ideas will vote for Clinton.

No she didn't "very easily" beat sanders.

What she did do very well was milk a very rigged Democratic (haha) Party system.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 09, 2016, 12:29:40 pm
Rigged?  How?

The Democratic Party is a political party.  It selects a candidate to represent it.  It doesn't just hold an open-casting call.  No party does.  Can anybody throw a hat in the ring during pre-selection battles inside the ALP or the Libs?  Even if you become a member, you have little chance if you're just trying to use the party to advance your own agenda.

The Presidential election isn't limited to Republican and Democratic candidates.  It is open to other candidates.  Ross Perot and Ralph Nader have run in the past as third-party candidates.  The Greens and Libertarians are running candidates this time even though they have no hope.

The Republicans have failed to keep the fox out of the henhouse.  Trump is as much a Republican as I am.  They had the stupid idea that the RNC could put the brakes on if needed but that failed badly when they needed to unite against Trump. 

Remember that Sanders has only recently joined the Democrats.  He has been an independent for years.  It was a bit like Bob Brown wanting an open ALP selection process (one in which every Australian could vote - even Liberal Party members) in which he could take control of the ALP and run his own policies while forcing the ALP to fund his general election campaign.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on June 09, 2016, 12:45:08 pm
Mav,

I fully appreciate that you know more than anybody else on just about every topic ever discussed by humanity, but please, do some basic research....even a 5 second Google search to better understand the party delegate (and super delegate) system....

Anyway, to save you a little time, try

http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/leaders/do-super-delegates-rig-the-democratic-primaries-in-hillary-clintons-favour/news-story/590348429e8eb7fcbee22961c2a909aa
(http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/leaders/do-super-delegates-rig-the-democratic-primaries-in-hillary-clintons-favour/news-story/590348429e8eb7fcbee22961c2a909aa)
or even:

http://theweek.com/articles/615261/superdelegates-explained (http://theweek.com/articles/615261/superdelegates-explained)


Finally, reflect on the meaning of 'democracy'.

Any contradictions here?

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 09, 2016, 12:57:36 pm
Quote
“The election is not rigged for one candidate or another. The rules ... were established in the 1970s, long before any current candidate declared for office. All candidates run under the same rules.”

It seems that it's only rigged if you support the loser.

I studied the US electoral system back when I thought I had an interest in political science and it did my head in.  Not that our system is perfect.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 09, 2016, 01:04:34 pm
The superdelegate system was brought in after George McGovern crashed and burned and later concerns about Carter.  It is a failsafe to ensure the DNC isn't forced to run an unelectable candidate or one who doesn't represent the party in any meaningful way.  Without that failsafe, the DNC may well hand the Presidency to a right-wing extremist.  The Party also has an interest in Congressional elections that run on the same day and a terrible candidate can hurt its candidates in those contests.

Since it was introduced, the superdelegates have never thwarted the will of the voters.  The candidate who has won the most pledged delegates has always become the Democratic candidate.  Bizarrely, Sanders is the one who wants the superdelegates to support him and overturn the popular vote.

The GOP is now confronted with the fact that it no longer has a party platform.  Trump is now the head of the GOP and his policies are now the GOPs.  And when the next presidential elections come around, policies may well be radically different.  There is little continuity or heart left in the GOP.

Do you think the ALP or the LP don't ensure their candidates adhere to their party's platform?  In both cases, party headquarters can override the preselection vote in the branches.  And in no case can non-Branch members turn up to vote in preselection battles. Your view that everyone should be able to vote in every party preselection process and that vote should be respected without question is ridiculous.  Both in the US and Australia, we have election processes that don't just apply the popular vote.  In the US, they have a delegate system.  In Australia, we have a representative system where a number of MPs are elected and then they select the PM.  We don't even vote directly for the PM and we don't vote at all for GG.  Democracy doesn't mean direct popular vote.

Good on Sanders for moving the DNC to the left.  Hillary's too right-wing for mine as is the Democratic Party.  Hillary is probably a lot more conservative than Turnbull.  But there needs to be some continuity in a party's platform or else it doesn't really stand for anything.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on June 09, 2016, 02:42:05 pm
Trump is as much a Republican as I am. 

True that.
He was a Democrat at one stage.

Many Republican biased commentators and Senior party figures cant stand him.

The important component in this election though is the Electoral college votes (270 needed to become President)  and at the moment these would probably favour Clinton by a fair margin.


Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 09, 2016, 03:11:34 pm
There are, however, a couple of obvious threats to democracy in the US.  Both arise because of the US obsession with leaving each State to deal with setting electoral boundaries and voting qualifications and procedures as they deem fit.

Right-wing figures and strategists including the Koch brothers came up with the Red State Strategy.  What we call redistributions and Americans call redistricting occurs every 10 years and the last one was in 2010.  Each State takes the census data and reorganises their congressional electoral boundaries accordingly.  Some States will pick up extra seats because they're growing.  Each State has its own commission to organise the redistricting.  Each State is free to have an independent commission, a bipartisan commission or a totally partisan commission.  The conservative strategists realised that if they pumped a lot of money and expertise into seemingly unimportant State contests rather than the Presidential or Congressional elections, they could gain control of the redistricting process in a number of states.  They won a lot of Guberbatorial and state legislative contests and then set about ensuring that the redistricting bodies would deliver gerrymanders which would allow the Republicans to win an impregnable majority in the House.  A perfect storm happened in 2010 as the Tea Party had just burst onto the scene and the mid-term elections resulted in a backlash against Obama.

This has resulted in a nihilistic and obstructionist House.  It's even backfired on the Republicans.  John Boehner lost his position as the Speaker of the House.  He refused to shut down the government and compromised with Obama to pass supply bills  The right-wing wingnuts were not pleased and forced him out.  There are now a lot of Republican congressmen and women who have been gifted safe seats who now feel no pressure from their districts to behave like reasonable adults.  Instead, they act like spoilt toddlers.  Ted Cruz boasted of trying to force a government shutdown if Obama refused to repeal Obamacare.

This majority is safe until maybe 2022 or 2024.  Unless the DNC can do something to negate GOP control of redistricting in 2020, it will gift the Republicans control of the House until 2034 or so.  The Supreme Court fortunately ruled that redistricting couldn't result in districts having different numbers of people, so that slowed down the strategy a little bit.

Each State can also do a lot to disenfranchise voters in its State.  They can make it difficult to enrol to vote by requiring photo IDs or just make it difficult to vote by ensuring long lines of voters at a small number of polling stations.  Remember that the elections are held on a Tuesday and there is no holiday (which Obama thinks needs to change).  Even the methods of recording votes can influence results as they did in 2000 when dodgy machines in Florida led to votes being ignored if there were "hanging chads" and Dubya won because his brother was the Governor of Florida and was therefore able to get him over the line.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 09, 2016, 04:11:06 pm
True that.
He was a Democrat at one stage.

Many Republican biased commentators and Senior party figures cant stand him.
Yep.  Bill and Hillary even went to his wedding!  He's been trying to ignore past pro-choice comments too. 

The Democrats have a chance of winning the Senate and the at-risk Senators are trying to disown him as much as possible.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: laj on June 09, 2016, 05:45:53 pm
No she didn't "very easily" beat sanders.

What she did do very well was milk a very rigged Democratic (haha) Party system.

Yes she did, close to 300 pledged delegates ahead. That's "very easily" in anyone's language. Not to mention 3 million more in the popular vote. All up a fair shellacking. Sounds like a 10 goal margin in footy terms. She'll be the next President.

Anything this about being "rigged' is just spin and crap for those that support Sanders.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 09, 2016, 05:53:39 pm
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRcPsqDxjhaLcfz44Vn7mqvzV5DlLQu-3ngzc-5zSNjRWIMknE16UPRL3m8)

You have to give Trump credit.  Not many guys would want Bill holding hands with their hot wives  :P
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on June 09, 2016, 06:21:23 pm
And Hilary was a republican. Either way she will lose in November.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 09, 2016, 06:33:30 pm
Her father was a staunch Republican but I don't remember seeing anything that says she was.

EDIT: Yep, you're right.  But she saw the light in her 2nd year because of her views concerning the Vietnam War and the Civil Rights movement and never looked back.  Very different from a 60 year old supposedly having a change of heart. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: laj on June 09, 2016, 06:36:21 pm
And Hilary was a republican. Either way she will lose in November.

Reckon she won't. Think she'll win very easily.

They'll be many Republicans that won't vote for Trump.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 09, 2016, 07:02:18 pm
Reckon she won't. Think she'll win very easily.

They'll be many Republicans that won't vote for Trump.

Yes, Clinton will demolish Trump.

Of course, the Republicans could still put up another candidate.  Trump would then run as an independent and split the Republican vote. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Jack Burton on June 09, 2016, 08:11:50 pm
I'm not so sure, a lot of the americans i speak with are worried that many will vote for trump just so hilary won't get elected. If it was compulsory voting she'd win by a mile, but maybe not in their system
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on June 09, 2016, 08:14:25 pm
And Hilary was a republican. Either way she will lose in November.

Trump will get 'taken out' well before the election.....
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Jack Burton on June 09, 2016, 08:28:55 pm
I hope you're right, scary prospect
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on June 09, 2016, 08:33:34 pm
Yes, Clinton will demolish Trump.

Of course, the Republicans could still put up another candidate.  Trump would then run as an independent and split the Republican vote.

Sections of the Republican party could put up another candidate but it's more likely that they would the one under the "Independent" banner not Trump.

Trump must be the official Republican candidate given he's won the nomination process fair and square.
If he were to be stripped of that there would be a huge backlash from his supporters.

mav alluded to a third party (Republican) candidate earlier in the thread.
It's probably looming now as a fairly likely scenario and perhaps one that gives the Republicans the best chance of occupying the White House.

A third party candidate runs....splitting the Republican vote.
But also drawing enough Electoral college votes away from Clinton that she doesn't reach the 270 required. (The impact of this candidate on Hilary's vote is the big unknown factor...in fact it could backfire and strenghen her vote)...but assuming it did block her....

The decision then goes to the Republican dominated House who elect the Trump alternative.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 09, 2016, 09:14:04 pm
Trump will get 'taken out' well before the election.....

A Sirhan Sirhan moment you think?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 09, 2016, 10:24:32 pm
Lods, I was actually referring to:

By the way, those links show that both of those parties hardly allowed the public at large to vote - they rigged it so a Libertarian and Green would win.

Anyway, a Republican can run as an independent but the clock is ticking.  Each State has different prerequisites for getting onto the ballot.  There are differing filing dates and IIRC the one in Texas has either passed or soon will.  There are various requirements to put together lists of supporting signatures from signatories living in that State who can't have voted in other primaries or caucuses in that State.  So if Kasich were to run in those States, he'd need to sign up people who hadn't voted for him before.  So it isn't easy.

But don't make the mistake of assuming that an independent candidate will cause the delegates to be split, leaving everyone short of 270 electoral college votes.  Mostly*, each State's electoral votes all go to the candidate who receives the most votes, even if that candidate receives less than 50% of the vote.  So even if the Libertarian, Green and Independent candidates draw away votes, the Republican and Democratic candidates will get all the delegates.  The ONLY circumstance in which they might prevent one or tuther getting 270 is if one of them scores the most votes in one or more states.  Neither Ross Perot nor Ralph Nader managed to win a state even though Ross Perot received 18.9% of the popular vote.  There were 5 independent candidates earlier in the 20th Century who did manage to do so.

* Nebraska and Maine can split votes.  Both award 2 electors to the popular statewide vote winner and then 1 elector to the winner of the popular vote in each congressional district (making an additional 3 in Nebraska and 2 in Maine). 

The major threat of the third party candidates is that they can bleed votes from one of the main 2 candidates and swing the election to the other candidate.  In 2000, Ralph Nader ran as a Green candidate and took votes away from Gore in Florida which handed Bush the election (although he disputes this analysis).

Clinton would love a Republican to run as an independent and Trump would love Sanders to run as an independent.  In 1912, Teddy Roosevelt lost in the Republican primaries to Taft and then ran as an independent.  He managed to win 88 Electoral College votes, kept Taft to just 8, and allowed the Democratic candidate, Woodrow Wilson, to romp home with 435.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 09, 2016, 11:40:33 pm
These are the requirements for an independent to be placed on the ballot in Texas:

Quote
Independent Candidates

Independent candidates for President file an application with the Secretary of State. The application must be submitted with a petition, and both documents must be filed no later than May 9, 2016. The petitions can be circulated beginning after March 1, 2016. For 2016, the petition must contain 79,939 signatures of registered voters who did not vote in the presidential primary of either party. The application must include the information about and signed consent from the candidate’s vice-presidential running mate. In addition to the petition and application, an independent candidate for President must provide signed, written statements of consent to be a presidential elector candidate from 38 presidential elector candidates (the number of presidential electors that federal law allocates to Texas). Forms are linked below and may be obtained from the Secretary of State’s office.

It looks like Texas has already shut out independents, although the Libertarian and Green Party candidates are set. 

I couldn't be bothered going through the other states to see which might already have closed their ballot nominations.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on June 09, 2016, 11:47:11 pm

These are the requirements for an independent to be placed on the ballot in Texas:

It looks like Texas has already shut out independents, although the Libertarian and Green Party candidates are set. 

I couldn't be bothered going through the other states to see which might already have closed their ballot nominations.


About halfway down the page it gives the requirements for independent candidates and deadlines
The majority are in July/ August


https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_access_for_presidential_candidates#Election_dates_and_filing_deadlines.2C_2016
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: dodge on June 09, 2016, 11:54:43 pm
Curiosity won and I looked at the list (thanks Lods)

 - the people in the District of Columbia are recognised as a separate "State"
 - 5 US Territories get a vote as well.

That makes 56 "States" that get to vote.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 10, 2016, 12:05:06 am
It's a nightmare system, isn't it?  Trump stuffed up in a few of the primaries/caucuses because he hadn't read all the fine print.  In Nevada, he didn't nominate potential delegates in time and the delegates who were ultimately awarded to him weren't even Trump voters.  If there'd been a contested convention, he would have lost quite a few because Ted Cruz was well organised and was busy peeling delegates away.  Even Ivanka Trump failed to register in time to vote for dear old daddy.

No wonder a well-organised candidate has a flying squad of lawyers and a reliable team of scrutineers in every state just waiting to argue all the technicalities in a close election.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on June 10, 2016, 08:22:30 am
When I was younger it was the case that the average Australian kid could name many more Native American tribes than they could Indigenous Australian tribes. Sioux Cheyenne, Comanche Apache, Mohawk...we could pick them by their clothing or hairstyles ....the impact of television!

With the decline of the Western in movies and TV that disparity is probably not there any more....although the knowledge of Indigenous groups is probably still pretty thin.

It's funny that with a Federal election less than a month away we seem to be devoting more time to an American election that wont happen until November than we are to our own contest.

I guess we prefer the "bizarre" to the "boring" when it comes to elections.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 10, 2016, 09:52:34 am
When I was younger it was the case that the average Australian kid could name many more Native American tribes than they could Indigenous Australian tribes. Sioux Cheyenne, Comanche Apache, Mohawk...we could pick them by their clothing or hairstyles ....the impact of television!

With the decline of the Western in movies and TV that disparity is probably not there any more....although the knowledge of Indigenous groups is probably still pretty thin.

It's funny that with a Federal election less than a month away we seem to be devoting more time to an American election that wont happen until November than we are to our own contest.

I guess we prefer the "bizarre" to the "boring" when it comes to elections.

Perhaps folk are more concerned about the fallout from the results of the US election.  A victory by Tweedle Dee or Tweedle Dum in our election won't really make much difference but the prospect of a Trump victory is scary.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on June 10, 2016, 09:58:21 am
When I was younger it was the case that the average Australian kid could name many more Native American tribes than they could Indigenous Australian tribes. Sioux Cheyenne, Comanche Apache, Mohawk...we could pick them by their clothing or hairstyles ....the impact of television!

With the decline of the Western in movies and TV that disparity is probably not there any more....although the knowledge of Indigenous groups is probably still pretty thin.

It's funny that with a Federal election less than a month away we seem to be devoting more time to an American election that wont happen until November than we are to our own contest.

I guess we prefer the "bizarre" to the "boring" when it comes to elections.

What a perfect summary, to prefer bizarre over boring. Well said. I remember a time when there were inspiring political leaders.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Robblues on June 10, 2016, 10:14:36 am
It's amazing the Americans can make a rah rah about almost anything. The lead up and the hype almost over shadows the event it's self. It has its own life, and the public really buy into it. Must the culture in general, here , we mostly are sick of hear about it from day one
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 10, 2016, 10:23:25 am
Impressive oratory works in the US but not in Australia.  Going to an Obama rally in 2008 or 2012 must have really been something.  He captivated his crowds with his soaring and inspirational rhetoric.  But if Obama had grown up in Australia, he would have been told he was being a wanker. 

Imagine thousands of people turning out to listen to Bill or Malcolm. It just doesn't happen.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 10, 2016, 10:25:01 am
It's amazing the Americans can make a rah rah about almost anything. The lead up and the hype almost over shadows the event it's self. It has its own life, and the public really buy into it. Must the culture in general, here , we mostly are sick of hear about it from day one

He he - reminds me of the old saying about the IBM salesman - always telling his girlfriend how great it's gonna be!  :)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Robblues on June 10, 2016, 10:29:26 am
True, it's in bred from an early age, thinking it starts with every morning saluting the flag etc at school. The whole event driven culture, high school football games , pep rally's etc , so much so they would organise a party round the opening up of a man hole cover if there was a ceremony involved.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 10, 2016, 10:49:02 am
Impressive oratory works in the US but not in Australia.  Going to an Obama rally in 2008 or 2012 must have really been something.  He captivated his crowds with his soaring and inspirational rhetoric.  But if Obama had grown up in Australia, he would have been told he was being a wanker. 

Imagine thousands of people turning out to listen to Bill or Malcolm. It just doesn't happen.

It used to work in Australia.  Bob Menzies was quite an orator and would fill town halls with ease.

Our current batch of politicians are focused on slogans and are terrified of saying anything that might stray off message.  I think it's a product of the rise of political minders and strategists.

I can only think of a couple of genuine inspirational speeches; Keating's Redfern speech (written by Don Watson) and Julia Gillard's off the cuff misogyny speech.

Rhetoric is not an Aussie strength but your average Septic is quite comfortable holding forth on any subject (apart from some of those beauty pageant contestants!).
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on June 10, 2016, 06:18:27 pm
Impressive oratory works in the US but not in Australia.  Going to an Obama rally in 2008 or 2012 must have really been something.  He captivated his crowds with his soaring and inspirational rhetoric.  But if Obama had grown up in Australia, he would have been told he was being a wanker. 

Imagine thousands of people turning out to listen to Bill or Malcolm. It just doesn't happen.

Being forced to listen to Bill or Malcolm may just replace waterboarding...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on June 10, 2016, 10:15:41 pm
I stated that I thought Trump would win the election easily against Hilary, but I had overlooked a fairly obvious 'trump card' (pun not really intended) that the Democrats had up their sleeve and it could be a really killer punch.

Elizabeth Warren has not only come out in support of Hilary today, but she has put herself in the running to possible end up the Vice Presidential nominee. I think the possibility of losing all those Bernie supporters lessens considerably with Warren in Hilary's camp as she seems far more naturally to sit in Sanders camp.

I wonder if her move is designed more to keep Trump out, than it is to get Hilary in. It was an obvious card as I stated, but I had completely forgotten about her.

It must be said though that we don't know yet whether she is up to the riguors of a presidential campaign and particularly one that will be as ugly as this one (this will be the worst I can ever remember). Who knows if there are skeletons, who knows if she maintain her calm and dignity in the fire, that will unfold if she does indeed join the campaign as a VP nominee.


The great thing about getting Warren onside for Hilary is that she attracts an area Hilary doesn't. There might be some nerves about appointing a Women President and VP all at once (change always worries some people), but that should be more than countered by the voters she brings in and I don't know that Trump is going to have as big a card to play himself (nor whether anyone would believe that a marriage of Trump with a Cruz/Rubio jump onboard).

Anyway, whether she does or doesn't run with Hilary her support is something Clinton's camp have been waiting for and probably tips the balance against what I stated only a week (or less ago). It I was going to place a bet on this and IF Warren does run with Hilary then I think I change my mind and would put my money on Hilary.

Either way, both are bad for the world and for America I think, anyway there are certainly many many more twists ahead.

Edit: One thing though I will say is dyed in the wool republicans will almost certainly hate her and it could make some of those thinking of abstaining, because they didn't want to vote for Trump actually voting, but I really do think that is likely to be any significant amount as they all hate Hilary as well. :)

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on June 10, 2016, 10:38:14 pm
..... anyway there are certainly many many more twists ahead.

Yep
Too many to make a judgement this far out....Vice presidential candidates, FBI investigations, mud slinging (Trumps supposed to give such a speech on Monday), the potential for Trump to self destruct, third party candidates..... violence, protests and demonstrations at the conventions, party unity or lack of it, Obama imposing himself on the contest

Just looking at that list though.... it's more likely that the impact of most of these would see Trump go backwards from this point.


Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: dodge on June 10, 2016, 10:48:52 pm
20 pages on the US election.  Australia election?  No one can be bothered and it is tedious.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on June 13, 2016, 04:52:21 pm
Another day...another comment from Trump that would destroy the chances of any other politician had they made them......He's seeking to make a political "I told you so"  point out of the mass murder in Orlando ::)

Quote
Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

Appreciate the congrats for being right on radical Islamic terrorism, I don't want congrats, I want toughness & vigilance. We must be smart!
2:43 AM - 13 Jun 2016
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 13, 2016, 05:45:52 pm
Another day...another comment from Trump that would destroy the chances of any other politician had they made them......He's seeking to make a political "I told you so"  point out of the mass murder in Orlando ::)

I think it will be more votes for Trump.....those on the fence might fall on Trumps side when it comes to dealing with terrorism.....redneck white americans will be buying more guns and building bigger fences.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 13, 2016, 05:57:15 pm
I think it will be more votes for Trump.....those on the fence might fall on Trumps side when it comes to dealing with terrorism.....redneck white americans will be buying more guns and building bigger fences.

Yes, this tragedy will play right into Trump's hands I'm afraid.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on June 13, 2016, 06:08:31 pm
Yes, this tragedy will play right into Trump's hands I'm afraid.

That's the "bizarrity" of it all.

If an Australian politician sought to make capital out of the tragedy such as this in a similar fashion to Trump they'd be finished...he's likely to benefit from it if he gets past the initial outrage at his tweet.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 13, 2016, 06:21:31 pm
Hillary and Donald may have some opposition, and it will hurt the Trumpmeister:

Quote
As America prepares to choose between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, two of the most unpopular presidential candidates in history, voters have yearned for a third choice.

Now, in a flurry of recent national polls, Gary Johnson, the former Republican governor of New Mexico, has suddenly surged above 10 per cent.

Winning would take a miracle but, with little fanfare, Mr Johnson has emerged as a potential "spoiler" who could cost Mr Trump the White House.

Mr Johnson, 63, who made a fortune in construction, is running as the nominee of the Libertarian Party, which has secured a place on the ballot in all 50 states for the November 8 election.

"Someone told me today that against Clinton and Trump a dead person could get 10 per cent," Mr Johnson said. "But guess what? Dead person isn't on the ballot???? There's a growing realisation that it's just me."

On Friday Mitt Romney, the 2012 Republican presidential nominee, said he would consider voting Libertarian - a move that could spur other mainstream Republicans to switch.

Mr Johnson's key goal is to get into the televised debates. To do so he needs to hit 15 per cent in the polls just three points higher than the 12 per cent he scored in a Fox News poll last week.

It would be the highest profile support yet for the third party, which has traditionally been viewed as a fringe, and somewhat chaotic, group with some outlandish policies. In 2012 it secured just one per cent of the vote.

But the ticket this time has an exceptional amount of experience. Mr Johnson's running mate is Bill Weld, Mr Romney's predecessor as Republican governor of Massachusetts.

Mr Romney said he had "enormous respect" for Mr Weld and would find it easy to vote for him.

He told CNN: "I'll get to know Gary Johnson better and see if he's someone who I could end up voting for."
Asked if he felt any guilt about taking votes from Mr Trump and the Republican Party, Mr Johnson laughed. "None," he said, before going on to call Mr Trump "absolutely racist".

"I think he'd be horribly dangerous and he's sounding very fascist," added Mr Johnson. He described Mr Trump's plans to deport 11 million as uninformed, and the pledge to build a fence across the border as "just wacky".

"What he says about immigration is nothing short of incendiary," he added. "It's just human nature that we all look for a scapegoat."

He added: "For elected Republicans to say they continue to support Trump even though he's saying these things, I think it means we're seeing the demise of the Republican Party."

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/libertarian-gary-johnson-spoiler-could-stop-donald-trumps-path-to-white-house-20160612-gph8nq.html#ixzz4BRfoHQUD

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on June 13, 2016, 07:29:36 pm
Yes, this tragedy will play right into Trump's hands I'm afraid.

Dear Donald,

It wasn't a terrorist!

It wasn't an immigrant!

It wasn't someone born abroad!

A wall would not have helped!

It turns out to be just another crazy born and breed American with a gun license just like 100s of other crazy Americans with guns!

Regards,
LP
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 13, 2016, 08:25:35 pm
Dear Donald,

It wasn't a terrorist!

It wasn't an immigrant!

It wasn't someone born abroad!

A wall would not have helped!

It turns out to be just another crazy born and breed American with a gun license just like 100s of other crazy Americans with guns!

Regards,
LP

AR15's are allowed in a lot of countries which surprises me......its crazy, while its not a gun you can just spray bullets every with its
a very easy reloading gun and there are plenty of mods available to make it easier to shoot.
This gun is the most popular in the US and you can get it if you pay$8 for an ID check...an assault rifle based on the M16 is the most common gun in US homes, can you believe it??
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on June 13, 2016, 09:11:07 pm
The guy was a terrorist, why do we feel the need to pretend he wasn't?

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 13, 2016, 09:52:40 pm
The guy was a terrorist, why do we feel the need to pretend he wasn't?

It seems that he was but it's best to wait until all the facts are in.  His wife reckons he was emotionally and mentally disturbed, violent and abusive but not overly religious.

What about the bloke who was apprehended with weapons and explosives before he got to the Los Angeles gay pride march?  Perhaps he was just well prepared to fight back against any hate crimes or terror attacks.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2016, 10:09:08 am
Yep, 'terrorist' appears to be a simple word but its use is selective.  It means a person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims and the OED defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims".  Yet there are many examples in the US where the label has not been given to those who clearly seem to have "earned" it.  Oddly enough, there don't seem to be too many white terrorists.

Dylan Roof shot a number of black people in a Charleston church.  He was a racist who had been inspired by podcasts espousing Christian Identity doctrines urging the start of a race war.  Use of violence - check.  Against civilians - check.  In pursuit of political aims - check.  Yet he wasn't called a terrorist, except by left-wingers who pointed out that he would have been labelled that way if he were a Muslim.  Instead, he was called deranged or unhinged.  The right-wing press did its best to ignore the fact it was a case of racial hatred.  Instead, it was portrayed as an attack on Christians!

Robert Dear shot 12 people in a Colorado Planned Parenthood Centre, 3 of whom died.  He said he was protecting unborn babies from being ripped apart so their baby parts could be sold.  He was clearly inspired by a fraudulent video put out by pro-life activists which purported to show PP staff discussing the sale of 'baby parts'.  This was quickly embraced by the GOP and conservatives.  The Texas Governor, a Republican, even launched an inquiry into Planned Parenthood on the basis of that tape but it not only cleared PP but led to the makers of the videos being charged, much to the chagrin of the Governor.  But was Dear labelled a terrorist?  No.  He was a deranged killer who was pushed over the edge by the murder of countless unborn babies.  Not only did his whiteness earn him immunity but also it helped that he was pushing the hobby horse of the GOP.  To call him a terrorist would tar the pro-life movement and that isn't the done thing.

Ammon Bundy led a militia which occupied the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.  They defended their occupation by arming themselves and threatening to kill any federal officers or police who might try to eject them.  Their objective was to prevent another couple of ranchers from being jailed and to force the Federal Government to cede the wilderness area to ranchers.  The government tried to avoid conflict and the occupation continued for a while before locals called on it to act.  One terrorist was killed and the others surrendered.  But they weren't labelled terrorists save by some left-wingers who wondered whether the same latitude would have been extended if the occupiers were Black or Muslim.  But Good Ol' Boys can't be terrorists can they?  They're Trump supporters after all and everyone knows that Trump is against terrorists.

Let's look at crimes committed by Muslims.  If they say they pledge allegiance to ISIS, should we automatically assume it is radical Islamic terrorism?  Clearly, the San Bernadino shootings were terrorist killings.  That couple had apparently been communicating with ISIS and had been following ISIS online.  The killings were therefore designed to serve the interests of ISIS.  Even in that case, it was necessary to discount that they were merely pursuing a vendetta against fellow workers as has happened many times in the US.  "Going postal" was coined because of the trend of postal workers killing fellow or former workmates.

In the Orlando shootings, the perpetrator said he pledged allegiance to ISIS.  But could this be a case of someone bent on going out in a blaze of glory;  how better to do that than with 50 murders and tying them to terrorism?  Let's not forget that this guy may well have been motivated by homophobia.  The GOP would prefer to treat this as a terrorist act which just happened to take place in a gay bar.  They would like to say it could just as well have targeted a church or kindergarten.  The GOP is currently going to war against the LGBT community at state level, the freedom to discriminate legislation in North Carolina being just one example.  They don't want this to be about homophobia or gun control.  Of course they want it to be neatly placed in the Islamic terrorism box.  But life isn't usually that easy to categorise.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2016, 10:39:59 am
Mass shooters often chase fame and suicide: “These are not people who want to … live with the crimes they commit” (http://www.salon.com/2016/06/14/mass_shooters_often_chase_fame_and_suicide_these_are_not_people_who_want_to_live_with_the_crimes_they_commit/), Salon, 15/6/16.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 15, 2016, 10:53:05 am
The motivation of the Orlando mass murderer is less clear with the revelation that he was a patron of the club and apparently homosexual. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2016, 11:04:34 am
Self-loathing?  Remember, the US pioneered 'gay conversion' therapy which was based on the belief that a lot of willpower, some behavioural therapy and a lot of praying for divine intervention could straighten gays out.  Failure was predictable and predisposed the patients to suicidality.  Psychologists and Psychiatrists are now prohibited from engaging in those therapies.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on June 15, 2016, 11:19:55 am
How does one shooter kill 50 odd and wound a further 50 in a confined space without getting taken down?

Stories say that people were shot multiple times.....

afaiaw, the magazine of the main weapon used holds 30 rounds.

Do the maths.

Why did the Feds take 3 hours to 'storm' the building?the main

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2016, 11:33:44 am
One witness who ran out of the building yelled at the police that they needed to go in but they didn't.  The gunman was in there for some 3 hours. I agree, it's really weird.

The Martin Place siege should have ended with a sniper's bullet.  The snipers had opportunities but weren't allowed to take the shot.  But there hadn't been shooting until very late in the piece, unlike in Orlando.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 15, 2016, 12:13:52 pm
How does one shooter kill 50 odd and wound a further 50 in a confined space without getting taken down?

Stories say that people were shot multiple times.....

afaiaw, the magazine of the main weapon used holds 30 rounds.

Do the maths.

Why did the Feds take 3 hours to 'storm' the building?the main

The reason given was that they thought he was wearing an explosive device. Make of that what you will but AFAIC things are rarely just what they seem on the surface.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 15, 2016, 12:39:25 pm
How does one shooter kill 50 odd and wound a further 50 in a confined space without getting taken down?

Stories say that people were shot multiple times.....

afaiaw, the magazine of the main weapon used holds 30 rounds.

Do the maths.

Why did the Feds take 3 hours to 'storm' the building?the main

Magazines for the AR-15 hold between 5 and 100 rounds but 20 and 30 round magazines are standard.  Military users of the similar M-16 often tape three magazines together giving rapid access to up to 90 rounds.  Changing magazines takes seconds so magazine capacity is not a limiting factor.

The AR-15 is semi-automatic so the rate of fire is dependant on how fast the shooter can pull the trigger (and change magazines).  I once fired 60 rounds from a semi-automatic rifle in just over a minute (two magazine changes) so shooting around 100 people in a confined area in 5-10 minutes would be relatively easy - if you are cold-blooded enough to carry out such an atrocity.

I understand that the delay in entering the building was due to fears that the gunman had explosives.  I'm not sure how far the armoured vehicle had to travel but that may have been a factor too.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on June 15, 2016, 01:02:18 pm
Magazines for the AR-15 hold between 5 and 100 rounds but 20 and 30 round magazines are standard.  Military users of the similar M-16 often tape three magazines together giving rapid access to up to 90 rounds.  Changing magazines takes seconds so magazine capacity is not a limiting factor.

The AR-15 is semi-automatic so the rate of fire is dependant on how fast the shooter can pull the trigger (and change magazines).  I once fired 60 rounds from a semi-automatic rifle in just over a minute (two magazine changes) so shooting around 100 people in a confined area in 5-10 minutes would be relatively easy - if you are cold-blooded enough to carry out such an atrocity.

I understand that the delay in entering the building was due to fears that the gunman had explosives.  I'm not sure how far the armoured vehicle had to travel but that may have been a factor too.

I agree with all those points.

Years ago prior to the bans on semi-automatic weapons I owned a Ruger Mini 14 which was a similar category of weapon we used for feral pig eradication. Back then in South Australia you could buy a circular clip version with a 100 capacity that you could empty as fast as you could pull the trigger. There was no reason or need to attempt an automatic modification, I think the maximum rate was about 3 rounds per second unmodified. A standard 30 shot clip could be taped back to back just like you see in the movies and changed a 2 or 3 seconds.

The "modification" of these weapons to fully automatic is overstated by the media, it has nothing to do with the events and in automatic form they are harder to control than in semi-automatic form. Regardless they should not be available to the general public in any format, they are weapons of war not pieces of sporting equipment.

BTW., listening to the audio being broadcast indicates the rifle used was operating as a semi-automatic.

Finally, I have no idea why someone would complain about the slow response times. Those officials have no idea with what they are dealing with at the time, all that relevant information comes after the fact. Also they are on a hiding to nothing, if they shoot a nutter who has a vest loaded with explosives they will be criticized as much if not even more than if they delay and people die by other means. Maybe there would have been 300 dead in such a circumstance. They are professionals, the media should but out and let them do their job!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 15, 2016, 01:11:36 pm
Magazines for the AR-15 hold between 5 and 100 rounds but 20 and 30 round magazines are standard.  Military users of the similar M-16 often tape three magazines together giving rapid access to up to 90 rounds.  Changing magazines takes seconds so magazine capacity is not a limiting factor.

The AR-15 is semi-automatic so the rate of fire is dependant on how fast the shooter can pull the trigger (and change magazines).  I once fired 60 rounds from a semi-automatic rifle in just over a minute (two magazine changes) so shooting around 100 people in a confined area in 5-10 minutes would be relatively easy - if you are cold-blooded enough to carry out such an atrocity.

I understand that the delay in entering the building was due to fears that the gunman had explosives.  I'm not sure how far the armoured vehicle had to travel but that may have been a factor too.

AR-15's are a very quick mag change and shoot 20 rounds in nine seconds, given the shooter had a modded up 100 round mag it would have been easy to shoot a lot of people at once.
My bro in law is in a gun club/collects them and he reckons the big thing with the military style weapons is they dont overheat like older semi autos so you dont have any cool down period which allows you to keep shooting and that a kid could learn to use a AR-15 as they are that easy. They should be banned.....
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cimm1979 on June 15, 2016, 01:36:38 pm
AR-15's are a very quick mag change and shoot 20 rounds in nine seconds, given the shooter had a modded up 100 round mag it would have been easy to shoot a lot of people at once.
My bro in law is in a gun club/collects them and he reckons the big thing with the military style weapons is they dont overheat like older semi autos so you dont have any cool down period which allows you to keep shooting and that a kid could learn to use a AR-15 as they are that easy. They should be banned.....

I don't know much about AR-15 but I do know modifications are available via legitimate and illegitimate means for many weapons. Can you turn one into fully-auto easily?

I have used a 9mm glock handgun extensively, which are a semi auto-matic hand gun. The following accessories are available for it
Shoulder stock and barrel extension (to turn it into a rifle.)
Silencer.
Scope.
100 shot mags (normal mag is 13)
 and most sinister is a kit which turns it from a semi-auto pistol into a fully automatic submachine gun, like an Uzi. Complete with 100 shot mag, side bar, silencer, shoulder stock and to change from semi-auto to fully auto requires the simple insertion of a small metal tab that's about the size of a half a guitar pick into the back of the slide mechanism.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 15, 2016, 02:42:34 pm
The current AR-15 differs from the M-16 and M-4 military rifles so that it is not possible to interchange components and convert the AR-15 to select fire (3 shot bursts and fully automatic).  It is illegal to convert AR-15s to fully automatic in the US but not illegal to have fully automatic AR-15s that were converted before the legislation was enacted  ::)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on June 15, 2016, 03:20:50 pm
Scary fact;

Dependant on the firing mechanism conversion to fully-auto from semi-auto can sometimes be achieved by simply using a pair of pliers and your girlfriends hair pin! It's not a long term solution as the hair pin breaks, but it does work for a clip or two.

EB1 is on the money regarding overheating issues with some semi-autos compared to the 15s.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2016, 04:00:18 pm
Click HERE (http://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/article/2016/03/30/port-arthur-survivor-confronts-pro-gun-fishers-and-shooters-politician) for an article describing a confrontation between a Shooters' Party MP and a Port Arthur massacre survivor on SBS's Insight.  He was whinging that it was oh so hard to obtain a Category C licence which permits possession of semi-automatic rifles/shotguns or pump-action shotguns.  She told him it was supposed to be!  Talk about being tone deaf ...

She also advocates the banning of the Adler 110 shotgun banned as it's capable of the rapid fire of up to 8 rounds.  Unfortunately, the gun control measures have been progressively white-anted so that there are gaps big enough to sneak a Howitzer through.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: malo on June 15, 2016, 04:28:52 pm

Dylan Roof shot a number of black people in a Charleston church.  He was a racist who had been inspired by podcasts espousing Christian Identity doctrines urging the start of a race war.  Use of violence - check.  Against civilians - check.  In pursuit of political aims - check.  Yet he wasn't called a terrorist, except by left-wingers who pointed out that he would have been labelled that way if he were a Muslim.  Instead, he was called deranged or unhinged.  The right-wing press did its best to ignore the fact it was a case of racial hatred.  Instead, it was portrayed as an attack on Christians!

He shot a number Christians in a Church Mav.....not sure how it could be portrayed as anything else.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2016, 04:41:47 pm
He was a Christian too.  What he wasn't was black.  And if you followed the case, you'd know that his issue was their colour.  He confessed that immediately after the shootings.  Seems the right wing is happy to ignore self-professed motives where it suits but any comments about Islam exclude any other possible explanations.

Click HERE (http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/charleston-shooter-dylann-roofs-racist-manifesto-uncovered/news-story/0556907ae43830a7d72e1869f085d544) for a report on his 'manifesto' drawn from his website.  Can you find any issue with Christians?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on June 15, 2016, 06:36:08 pm
He was a terrorist too.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2016, 08:28:21 pm
And yet he is only referred to as the Charleston Church shooter.  On the other hand, the media referred to the San Bernadino terror attack. 

When Trump next asks why some are reluctant to refer to Radical Islamic terrorism, someone should tell him that this is a tautology.  Terrorism MEANS Radical Islamic Terrorism.  There simply is no other kind in the US.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2016, 09:07:10 pm
Click HERE (http://theconversation.com/orlando-massacre-shows-our-understanding-of-terrorism-is-too-focused-on-jihad-60949) for an opinion piece on the same point which concludes as follows:

Quote
The Orlando shootings are a textbook example of where labelling somebody a terrorist tells us more about the person applying the label than it does about the person labelled. The worst mass shooting in US history can be both an act of terrorism and an act of homophobia – there is no tension between the two, apart from in the eyes of the beholder.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on June 17, 2016, 04:57:44 pm
"The Orlando shootings are a textbook example of where labelling somebody a terrorist tells us more about the person applying the label than it does about the person labelled. The worst mass shooting in US history can be both an act of terrorism and an act of homophobia – there is no tension between the two, apart from in the eyes of the beholder."

Great quote. Thank you, Mr Maverick.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 17, 2016, 05:18:28 pm
A similar situation has emerged in Britain today with the murder of an MP by a mentally ill man. The conspiracy theorists are in full flight linking it to Brexiteers and anti immigration groups.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on June 17, 2016, 05:43:19 pm
I'm not sure what's being implied here?

Is there a suggestion that Orlando wasn't an act of terrorism as well as a homophobic attack.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 17, 2016, 05:55:48 pm
I'm not sure what's being implied here?

Is there a suggestion that Orlando wasn't an act of terrorism as well as a homophobic attack.

I guess we really need to define what we mean by "an act of terrorism" since this can have a number of connotations, depending on your point of view.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on June 17, 2016, 06:12:02 pm
Mav gave a definition of it a little while back

Quote
"the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims"

so in that context....

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/16/us/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen/

Quote
"America and Russia stop bombing the Islamic state," the gunman wrote, according to the chairman of the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.
"You kill innocent women and children by doing us airstrikes ... now taste the Islamic state vengeance."

Pretty much an act of terrorism (whatever his other motives...including a suggested conflict regarding his sexuality)

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 17, 2016, 06:55:47 pm
A similar situation has emerged in Britain today with the murder of an MP by a mentally ill man. The conspiracy theorists are in full flight linking it to Brexiteers and anti immigration groups.

Witnesses say that he shouted "Britain first" or similar and that seems to tick the "political aims" box.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 17, 2016, 07:21:12 pm
Witnesses say that he shouted "Britain first" or similar and that seems to tick the "political aims" box.

Yes I read that. That's all they needed.  ::)

The fact that he had no affiliations to a political group and had a history of mental illness seem to have been overlooked.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 17, 2016, 07:38:29 pm
Mav gave a definition of it a little while back

so in that context....

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/16/us/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen/

Pretty much an act of terrorism (whatever his other motives...including a suggested conflict regarding his sexuality)

Is Mav the arbiter of such definitions then?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on June 17, 2016, 07:43:25 pm
Is Mav the arbiter of such definitions then?

I think he was quoting the Oxford English Dictionary....they're  a pretty good source for definitions ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 17, 2016, 07:59:42 pm
Yes I read that. That's all they needed.  ::)

The fact that he had no affiliations to a political group and had a history of mental illness seem to have been overlooked.

You could probably say much the same about Mateen and Monis.  The latter was found by a psychiatrist to "not have a psychiatric illness, rather a complex personality disorder that led to vicious, deceitful, manipulative and anti-social attitudes and behaviour".  The psychiatrist also said that Monis was a "lone wolf" terrorist.

Timothy McVeigh wasn't affiliated with any political or other group, apart from brief engagements with the Republicans and NRA.

I suspect that "personality disorder" would be a trait of most folk who carry out terrorist acts, mass killings and/or political assassinations.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 17, 2016, 08:05:39 pm
You could probably say much the same about Mateen and Monis.  The latter was found by a psychiatrist to "not have a psychiatric illness, rather a complex personality disorder that led to vicious, deceitful, manipulative and anti-social attitudes and behaviour".  The psychiatrist also said that Monis was a "lone wolf" terrorist.

Timothy McVeigh wasn't affiliated with any political or other group, apart from brief engagements with the Republicans and NRA.

I suspect that "personality disorder" would be a trait of most folk who carry out terrorist acts, mass killings and/or political assassinations.

How much do you actually know about this bloke DJC? Looks like you've got your mind pretty much made up.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on June 17, 2016, 09:12:01 pm
I'm not sure what's being implied here?

Basically if you call the Orlando shooter a terrorist you're doing so only because he's middle eastern and it would have nothing to do with the fact he shot 100 people.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 17, 2016, 09:42:41 pm
How much do you actually know about this bloke DJC? Looks like you've got your mind pretty much made up.

I know as much or as little as most folk who listen to or watch the news.  Hence my references to Monis and McVeigh, both of whom are relatively well known and were not affiliated with political groups and had histories of "personality disorders" at best.

In this case, it seems that a bloke armed with a gun and a knife carried out what was apparently a premeditated attack on a MP while apparently shouting a political slogan of a group that holds opposite views to the MP.

There's no suggestion that it was drug-fuelled, it's probably not a homophobic hate attack, it could be a misogynistic attack, it could be the result of a personality disorder or insanity . . . and/or a terrorist attack.   
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 17, 2016, 10:01:08 pm
I know as much or as little as most folk who listen to or watch the news.  Hence my references to Monis and McVeigh, both of whom are relatively well known and were not affiliated with political groups and had histories of "personality disorders" at best.

In this case, it seems that a bloke armed with a gun and a knife carried out what was apparently a premeditated attack on a MP while apparently shouting a political slogan of a group that holds opposite views to the MP.

There's no suggestion that it was drug-fuelled, it's probably not a homophobic hate attack, it could be a misogynistic attack, it could be the result of a personality disorder or insanity . . . and/or a terrorist attack.  

In other words you are surmising and speculating?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 17, 2016, 10:06:33 pm
I think he was quoting the Oxford English Dictionary....they're  a pretty good source for definitions ;)

Aside from the definition you quote, the word "terrorist" has gained an extremely emotive connotation in recent times in terms of profiling of certain people. It should be used with great care therefore until the full facts of this become known - if of course they ever do. Let's not fall for the trial by media and the hysteria that it creates?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 17, 2016, 10:20:44 pm
Basically if you call the Orlando shooter a terrorist you're doing so only because he's middle eastern and it would have nothing to do with the fact he shot 100 people.

I reckon if you pledge your allegiance to the leader of ISIS you qualify as a terrorist...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 17, 2016, 10:54:09 pm
In other words you are surmising and speculating?

Perhaps, but no more or less than folk have about the Orlando massacre or the Lindt Cafe siege.  It's certainly not a conspiracy theory but a reasonable deduction from the available facts.

Those facts seem to be mounting up; Thomas Mair did have mental health issues but apparently purchased books and subscriptions from an American-based Neo-Nazi group in the late 1990s and early 2000s.  One purchase was a handbook with instructions for building a homemade firearm.  Mair used "an antique or home-made gun" to shoot Mrs Cox.   He also subscribed to and corresponded with a pro-apartheid South African magazine in the 2000s.

Anyway, I'll leave the last words to Brendan Cox:

Quote
“Jo believed in a better world and she fought for it every day of her life with an energy, and a zest for life that would exhaust most people. She would have wanted two things above all else to happen now, one that our precious children are bathed in love and two, that we all unite to fight against the hatred that killed her.

"Hate doesn’t have a creed, race or religion, it is poisonous.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 17, 2016, 11:12:51 pm
we all unite to fight against the hatred that killed her.

"Hate doesn’t have a creed, race or religion, it is poisonous.”


Laudable words and fine sentiments for sure and the loss of this dedicated woman is indeed a tragedy. Isn't it a pity though that everyone doesn't live by them and refrains from blanket condemnations of others before they know all the facts.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LanceRomance on June 18, 2016, 09:11:42 am
I reckon if you pledge your allegiance to the leader of ISIS you qualify as a terrorist...

Bang on.

He also scoped out other places to attack but settled on that one.

Plus what he did is in line with extremist preaching.

What it has also done is show up homophobia from other groups, The difference being is that they are less likely to go and kill a whole bunch of people.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LanceRomance on June 18, 2016, 09:19:20 am
A similar situation has emerged in Britain today with the murder of an MP by a mentally ill man. The conspiracy theorists are in full flight linking it to Brexiteers and anti immigration groups.

Not enough has come out about the English thing to classify it as a terrorist act.

Seems at this stage it was a disenfranchised loose cannon who had access to a gun.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 18, 2016, 10:17:14 am
Not enough has come out about the English thing to classify it as a terrorist act.

Seems at this stage it was a disenfranchised loose cannon who had access to a gun.

As were McVeigh and Monis who are, quite rightly in my opinion, considered to be terrorists.  Of course, McVeigh had access to a bomb as well as guns (access to a gun is a given)

What if Mair had shouted "Allahu Akbar" instead of "Britain first"?

West Yorkshire Police have confirmed that they are investigating the killer's links to extreme right-wing groups.  Not that any such links will determine whether Mair is a terrorist; that's down to his motives. 

Mair has been charged with murder but not terrorism at this stage.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LanceRomance on June 18, 2016, 10:47:52 am
Monis had been on the radar for his beliefs for a long time.

He was an islamist.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 18, 2016, 10:48:35 am
As were McVeigh and Monis who are, quite rightly in my opinion, considered to be terrorists.  Of course, McVeigh had access to a bomb as well as guns (access to a gun is a given)

What if Mair had shouted "Allahu Akbar" instead of "Britain first"?

West Yorkshire Police have confirmed that they are investigating the killer's links to extreme right-wing groups.  Not that any such links will determine whether Mair is a terrorist; that's down to his motives. 

Mair has been charged with murder but not terrorism at this stage.

So far his only "link" to right wing groups is possession of literature - not membership of any particular organisations, and several including Britain First have stated they have never heard of him. He certainly could be called a murderer from what is known so far but the case continues.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 18, 2016, 12:07:05 pm
So far his only "link" to right wing groups is possession of literature - not membership of any particular organisations, and several including Britain First have stated they have never heard of him. He certainly could be called a murderer from what is known so far but the case continues.

That's not quite right Cookie.  A White Rhino Club blog post from Jan 2006 described Mair as "one of the earliest subscribers and supporters of S. A. Patriot".  Mair was also linked to the National Alliance (It seems that McVeigh was influenced by National Alliance literature).

Links to right wing, left wing, anarchist, religious, pseudo-religious, environmental or other groups is not a pre-requisite for terrorism.  While there isn't a universally recognised definition of terrorism, the use of violence or terror for political purposes is a common factor.  I have previously mentioned Monis and McVeigh and the Unabomber Kaczynski is another terrorist without links to any group or organisation who used violence and terror to pursue a political agenda.

Whether or not Mair is a terrorist should be determined by his motives.  The fact that he shouted a political slogan while murdering an MP suggests a particular motive but we won't know for sure until the legal process runs its course.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 18, 2016, 02:32:41 pm
@ DJC

One of the British Anti-terrorist squads are reported to be now working with the WY Police on this case. It will be very interesting to see if the killer was working alone or was part of a larger plot/conspiracy. His actual motive is not yet clear but from my readings elsewhere the backdrop appears to be a high level of social deprivation in parts of the north of England and an antipathy to the EU, which the recent campaigning for the referendum may have inflamed - which is in  turn a big worry in itself. Jo Cox was apparently a very active campaigner for the Remain group.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LanceRomance on June 18, 2016, 05:59:07 pm
@ DJC

One of the British Anti-terrorist squads are reported to be now working with the WY Police on this case. It will be very interesting to see if the killer was working alone or was part of a larger plot/conspiracy. His actual motive is not yet clear but from my readings elsewhere the backdrop appears to be a high level of social deprivation in parts of the north of England and an antipathy to the EU, which the recent campaigning for the referendum may have inflamed - which is in  turn a big worry in itself. Jo Cox was apparently a very active campaigner for the Remain group.

I'm sure there wil be many wanting to declare britain first a terrorist organisation..
 the implications of which are a little worrying considering a lot of these guys seem like fringedwelling troublemakers
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 18, 2016, 06:30:03 pm
@ DJC

One of the British Anti-terrorist squads are reported to be now working with the WY Police on this case. It will be very interesting to see if the killer was working alone or was part of a larger plot/conspiracy. His actual motive is not yet clear but from my readings elsewhere the backdrop appears to be a high level of social deprivation in parts of the north of England and an antipathy to the EU, which the recent campaigning for the referendum may have inflamed - which is in  turn a big worry in itself. Jo Cox was apparently a very active campaigner for the Remain group.

I really hope that he wasn't part of a larger plot/conspiracy  :(
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 19, 2016, 09:03:02 am
Quote
The man charged with the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox has given his name in court as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain".
. . .

[The magistrate] suggested that a psychiatric report should be prepared, saying: "Bearing in mind the name he has just given, he ought to be seen by a psychiatrist."

Barking mad, terrorist, or a bit of both?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Peter Brady on June 19, 2016, 10:48:57 am
Lunatic and Terrorist are not mutually exclusive terms.
In fact one is probably a pre-requisite for the other.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 19, 2016, 11:14:38 am
http://www.theage.com.au/world/troubled-quiet-macho-angry-the-volatile-life-of-omar-mateen-20160618-gpmip1.html

A long article if you want to take the time on it but a good profile of the life of the Orlando perpetrator Omar Mateen. Social disaffection seems to be a major factor but was he born psychopathic or did that develop as a result of his life experiences or a combination of both? He seems to have been acting alone but gaining inspiration from the terrorist activities of others such as Osama Bin Laden and ISIL. The activities of the USA in places like Iraq and Afghanistan also strongly influenced him. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on June 19, 2016, 11:50:41 am
Lunatic and Terrorist are not mutually exclusive terms.
In fact one is probably a pre-requisite for the other.

Agree.

This term 'terrorist' has gotten way out of control. It's now used by opportunistic politicians world wide to manipulate through fear.

Bottom line is that terrorist organisations are just groups of angry, cowardly, disenfranchised, disaffected, mentally unstable zealots. But I repeat myself, zealotry and mental instability are really one in the same.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 19, 2016, 04:41:19 pm
Investigators Say Orlando Shooter Showed Few Warning Signs Of Radicalization (http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/18/482621690/investigators-say-orlando-shooter-showed-few-warning-signs-of-radicalization), NPR.

Quote
Dina says that al-Qaida and ISIS-inspired attacks tend to follow a different pattern. She explains:

"We know that during the attack the gunman posted messages on Facebook saying he was doing this on behalf of ISIS. But officials have yet to find any of the precursors usually associated with radicalization. They've interviewed dozens of people who either knew him or had contact with Mateen.
"And they say that they've yet to find any indication that he became noticeably more religious, which is one of the indicators of radicalization. He still was going to the same mosque. The way he dressed didn't change. His relationship with his family didn't change in any way. And these are all typically warning signs that parents and friends and educators are told to look for if they're worried that someone they're close to is radicalizing."
She adds "this isn't science," but so far the signs of radicalization aren't there, which has led investigators to wonder whether the 29-year-old invoked the name of ISIS to garner more publicity for his deadly attack.

As with another article I linked, the key is that this guy was trying to make as big an impact as he could for his own egomaniacal purposes.  What better way to do this than to invoke the current boogeyman.  He could have yelled out Bloody Mary's name 3 times but that no longer carries any street cred.  Even 'Seig Heil!' wouldn't cut it when even Prince Harry frocks up as a Nazi for a dress-up party. 

HE wanted to cause terror, as did Julian Knight and Martin Bryant, but just like them it doesn't seem he had much in mind other than fame as the biggest, baddest mass-murderer that the US has produced.

Reminds me of The Wild One.  Girl dancing with one of the bikies: Hey Johnnie, what ya rebelling against?  Johnnie (Marlon Brando): Whaddya got?

[flash=200,200]https://youtu.be/_4NkkAQllfo[/flash]
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 20, 2016, 02:02:02 pm
http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/slowmotion-train-wreck-as-donald-trumps-poll-numbers-sink-through-the-floor-20160619-gpmxl3.html

Trump running out of gas?

(https://i.imgflip.com/o5s9u.jpg)

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on June 20, 2016, 02:23:47 pm
The polls were bad for Trump from the start but he defied them. People won't say that they support him but they just quietly tick that box when the time comes.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on June 20, 2016, 02:40:22 pm
The polls were bad for Trump from the start but he defied them. People won't say that they support him but they just quietly tick that box when the time comes.

You mean they are bigots and racists but won't publicly admit it?

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 20, 2016, 04:44:30 pm
The problem is that he isn't running against Republicans any more.  Lindsey Graham said a choice between Trump and Cruz was like choosing between being shot or poisoned.  In many ways, Cruz is more of a right-wing wingnut than Trump.  Rubio was just as extreme, albeit a little more likeable. 

Using the Republican primaries as a guide to the general election is misguided.  If a voter wants to vote for a small government conservative who isn't a narcissistic bigot, he or she can vote for the Libertarian candidate.  I doubt that Trump will appeal to too many left-wingers.

The other thing is that Trump's vote in the primaries wasn't underestimated by the polls.  The polls predicted his success.  The notable exception was the Iowa Caucuses where the polls predicted a solid win to  Trump but Cruz ended up winning after his team sent around an email that falsely suggested Ben Carson had withdrawn from the race.  On the other hand, the nice guy Establishment candidate, Jeb Bush, did just as badly in the polls as in the Primaries and Ben Carson tanked as well.  So where is the evidence that he has secret support?  Given he has big turnouts at his rallies, it doesn't look as though his supporters are particularly bashful.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LanceRomance on June 20, 2016, 06:08:21 pm
You mean they are bigots and racists but won't publicly admit it?

No. It's a protest vote against the cultural elite.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 20, 2016, 06:10:29 pm
No. It's a protest vote against the cultural elite.

And the political elite.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LanceRomance on June 20, 2016, 06:14:53 pm
And the political elite.

exactly.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on June 20, 2016, 06:15:22 pm
He's finished...He's fighting a battle on two fronts... against Democrats and Republicans
The Hitler analogy finally has some legitimacy.
You cant win on the Eastern and Western front
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LanceRomance on June 20, 2016, 06:18:02 pm
He's finished...He's fighting a battle on two fronts... against Democrats and Republicans
The Hitler analogy finally has some legitimacy.
You cant win on the Eastern and Western front


Reckon tbe republicans dont want to win tbe next election?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on June 20, 2016, 06:21:14 pm
They do for a number of reasons (supreme court,senate elections)...But what to do about it?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 20, 2016, 06:40:59 pm

Reckon tbe republicans dont want to win tbe next election?

They are desperate to win but mucked up badly by allowing Trump to get this far.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on June 20, 2016, 06:51:22 pm
They are desperate to win but mucked up badly by allowing Trump to get this far.

I think its reached the point where they have to run an alternative candidate.
They're not going to win anyway..but at least they provide a candidate that is more truly representative of the party.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 20, 2016, 06:56:42 pm
I think its reached the point where they have to run an alternative candidate.
They're not going to win anyway..but at least they provide a candidate that is more truly representative of the party.

They are viewed quite rightly now as serving only the interests of the super-rich elite class and its political servants. Hilary of course can also be classified in that category so it will be a win for the elites whichever way it goes.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on June 20, 2016, 08:28:36 pm
They are desperate to win but mucked up badly by allowing Trump to get this far.

Trump is his own worst enemy, the more issues the Democrats raise the bigger the goose he is making of himself!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 20, 2016, 08:46:51 pm
Trump is his own worst enemy, the more issues the Democrats raise the bigger the goose he is making of himself!

Bullets seem to miss or bounce off him.....he even got mileage out of a horrendous act like the Orlando shooting....only he could pat himself on the back over that and get away with it.
Hilary now has her husbands dirty laundry being aired thanks to some secret agent who isnt so secret anymore, things just keep on falling into place for the Trumpster...lets hope the sane electors remember to vote.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 20, 2016, 09:38:31 pm
You crack me up!  Trump got away with it?  Kinda like the Japanese got away with Pearl Harbour ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 21, 2016, 09:11:06 am
Well, Trump's Campaign Manager, Corey Lewandowski, didn't get away with it: Why Donald Trump Said 'You're Fired!' To Campaign Manager Corey Lewandowski (http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/why-donald-trump-said-youre-fired-to-campaign-manager-corey-lewandowski-20160620-gpnspf.html), the Age 19/6/16.

Lewandowski was safe as long as Trump kept winning.  Hell, he could even get away with manhandling a conservative female reporter, which must leave Eddie green with envy.  But his sacking points to the fact that the last couple of weeks have been terrible for Trump.  There's even new life in the Dump Trump movement and there's now talk of delegates refusing to vote for Trump in order to create a contested convention.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 21, 2016, 10:41:57 am
The US Senate has rejected four proposed measures to expand background checks on gun buyers and curb gun sales to those on terrorism watch lists.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on June 21, 2016, 11:26:28 am
The US Senate has rejected four proposed measures to expand background checks on gun buyers and curb gun sales to those on terrorism watch lists.

They think they are Wyatt Earp, they are all fecked in the head!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on June 21, 2016, 12:53:51 pm
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/06/19/lynch_partial_transcript_of_orlando_911_calls_will_have_references_to_isis_cut_out.html

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 21, 2016, 02:54:52 pm
Oh boy  ::)

Time for the men in white coats to round up the lunatics and give each of them a padded cell. 

The A/G and the FBI were of the view that redacting comments re ISIS would prevent ISIS using them as PR.  Seems reasonable.  What they didn't count on was the right-wing wingnuts being just as keen as ISIS to exploit the calls.  The GOP and ISIS are keen to be the 2 sides of the same coin here.  They each fuel the PR campaign of the other.  Reminds me of an episode of Get Smart in which Max worried that eliminating Kaos would result in everyone at Control losing a job.

So what revelations have there been?  The A/G noted that the redacted comments were related to ISIS.  Did the specific comments take it much further?  I don't think so.

But we have learnt that Mateen used the alleged ISIS link to make the police and FBI think he wasn't just a lone shooter.  He told them there were explosives which he could detonate to kill anyone who attempted to storm the bathroom where he was holed up.  He also claimed there would be other attacks within hours.  This did change how the police reacted.  They were far more cautious as a result.  Ironically, he went too far in the end as he claimed he had explosive vests which he might detonate to kill the hostages and this precipitated the rescue.  So, how much of the purported ISIS link was real and how much was it a ruse to convince law enforcement that he wasn't just a lone shooter and/or magnify the infamy of his big swansong?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Woodstock on June 21, 2016, 06:42:38 pm
Never mind the US Election...we've got our own next week. More important at the moment. At the Coopers Malthouse tonight to listen to a Guardian Newspaper live panel discussion. Some good panel guests on tonight.... ;D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on June 21, 2016, 06:43:42 pm
God this roller coaster is ridiculous.
Trump's efforts over this latest shooting have really been all over the place.
He's gone against one of his most powerful lobby groups in the NRA, you can't have the republican vote and not be 100% committed to guns... and big ones at that (this is America after all).

He has wanted to come out tough (against muslims), but has tried to be almost reasonable/sensible in the comment of restricting gun ownership (BANG OUT OF ORDER TRUMP!!)

See to the NRA of course ANY gun control is BAD and they have already threatened action against lawmakers. What this means is that a lot of republican candidates are going to find themselves up against rivals more in line with the lobby group if they don't maintain a hard line stance supporting the 2nd Amendment.

On Trump, with him fluffing his lines recently and sacking his top advisor.. He now is a LONG way behind Clinton, but he could turn that around in 1/2 a dozen tweets... Or he could stoop lower, who knows in this mess.

What is certain, is that the likes of Russia are heavily in favour of Trump becoming President of the USA, not really a great surprise there :)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 22, 2016, 09:22:43 am
Quote
Trump claimed in December that his numbers "go way up" after tragedies. However, his standing in the polls has dropped in the wake of the mass shooting in Orlando, Florida, earlier this month -- a time when he also faced criticism for making disparaging remarks about a Latino judge.

NBC's polling team attributes the shift in part to independents souring on Trump.

"This week, 36 percent of Independents said they support Clinton and the same number said they support Trump," they write. "In the past, however, this group of voters has generally preferred Trump over Clinton."

New Polls Confirm Hillary Clinton's Decisive Lead Over Donald Trump (http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/hillary-clinton-leads-donald-trump-in-new-national-polls_us_576953a2e4b0a75709b7c79d?section=australia), Huffington Post.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on June 22, 2016, 10:01:42 am
When all this Trump campaign kicked off there was a lot of speculation that he did not actually want to win, he didn't even have a genuine support team in place.

The allegation was that he was using his ability to garnish public support as a way of feathering his own nest in back-room deals.

It appears some in his own party have started to see through his motives. The way he is now sabotaging his own campaign seems to confirm these very suspicions.

Trump will walk away from this apparent loss richer and more powerful than ever before without any responsibility for wasting the American public's time and money.

Was this a political campaign, or a very clever ponzi scheme?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 23, 2016, 09:35:34 am
Interesting story about the Orlando shooter: Orlando Shooter, Omar Mateen, Seeking Revenge on HIV Lover Claims 'Miguel' On Univision (http://www.theage.com.au/world/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-seeking-revenge-on-hiv-lover-claims-miguel-on-univision-20160622-gpppzg.html), HuffPost.

'Miguel' said he was one of Mateen's lovers.  He said Mateen's other lovers included a Puerto Rican who he later found out is HIV positive.  He reacted badly to that news and threatened to pay back the Latinx community.

Hmmm.  Seems that you can't just concentrate on someone's name, religion or their words during sieges.  Life has a way of throwing curve balls, no matter how black and white (or white and whiter) Trump and Fox News would like to make things.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on June 23, 2016, 10:00:16 am
Interesting story about the Orlando shooter: Orlando Shooter, Omar Mateen, Seeking Revenge on HIV Lover Claims 'Miguel' On Univision (http://www.theage.com.au/world/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-seeking-revenge-on-hiv-lover-claims-miguel-on-univision-20160622-gpppzg.html), HuffPost.

'Miguel' said he was one of Mateen's lovers.  He said Mateen's other lovers included a Puerto Rican who he later found out is HIV positive.  He reacted badly to that news and threatened to pay back the Latinx community.

Hmmm.  Seems that you can't just concentrate on someone's name, religion or their words during sieges.  Life has a way of throwing curve balls, no matter how black and white (or white and whiter) Trump and Fox News would like to make things.

I'll take his own words for why he did it.

Before on facebook:

Quote
"America and Russia stop bombing the Islamic state,"

Quote
“I pledge my alliance to (ISIS leader) abu bakr al Baghdadi..may Allah accept me,” Mateen wrote in one post during the attack. “The real muslims will never accept the filthy ways of the west” …“You kill innocent women and children by doing us airstrikes..now taste the Islamic state vengeance.”

Quote
''In the next few days you will see attacks from the Islamic state in the usa."



Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on June 23, 2016, 10:01:54 am
Hmmm.  Seems that you can't just concentrate on someone's name, religion or their words during sieges.  Life has a way of throwing curve balls, no matter how black and white (or white and whiter) Trump and Fox News would like to make things.

It's amazing just how often the media and political perspectives differ from reality, it must be a human trait that people just want to keep on believing not matter how many times the spin gets exposed.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 23, 2016, 10:20:11 am
It's amazing just how often the media and political perspectives differ from reality, it must be a human trait that people just want to keep on believing not matter how many times the spin gets exposed.

It's called "brainwashing".
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 23, 2016, 10:26:57 am
This scenario is looking much more like Cruising than The Day of the Jackal.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 23, 2016, 12:04:35 pm
It's funny how the GOP dogwhistling on race gave way to Trump's blatant race-baiting, but now an independent Tennessee candidate for Congress has gone one step further.  He has run with what Trump's slogan, 'Make America Great Again', actually means:

(http://media.salon.com/2016/06/Make-America-White-Again.jpg)

Yes, it's disgusting.  But at least he's more honest than Trump.

http://www.salon.com/2016/06/22/trump_inspired_tennessee_candidate_for_congress_erects_make_america_white_again_billboard_draws_boycott/ (http://www.salon.com/2016/06/22/trump_inspired_tennessee_candidate_for_congress_erects_make_america_white_again_billboard_draws_boycott/)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 23, 2016, 12:41:46 pm
If you're interested catch a movie called "The Good Shepherd". It's a few years old now but there's a line in it where one of the establishment say "The Irish, the blacks, the latinos and the polaks (basically the non-Anglos)" are just visitors in the US - they have come and they will go". Don't know about that being true but it's certainly a sentiment popular with certain sections of society there.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on June 23, 2016, 12:55:34 pm
Things are a bit chaotic in the US House of reps at the moment
Democrats are staging a sit-in demanding a vote on some of the gun control legislation
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on June 23, 2016, 03:45:16 pm
http://m.theage.com.au/world/us-election/donald-trump-serves-up-angry-whoppers-at-hillary-clinton-as-slugfest-continues-20160622-gppq6c.html

Hilary's going to be dragged through the mud big time.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 23, 2016, 05:07:21 pm
That's been her life for over 20 years.  Fox News is obsessed by her, after all.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 23, 2016, 06:05:52 pm
Things are a bit chaotic in the US House of reps at the moment
Democrats are staging a sit-in demanding a vote on some of the gun control legislation
The most significant thing about the sit-in is that the Democrats now see gun control as a vote-winner.  Even a year ago, Congressional Democrats would have avoided a confrontation on this issue in the same way that the ALP has no appetite for a fight over refugee policy.  This is a seismic shift in the gun issue over there.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 27, 2016, 12:48:19 pm
Trump's support has taken a battering - click HERE (http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/trump-clinton-june-polls_us_57700d93e4b017b379f64112?section=australia).  Trump is 7 points down and Clinton is 7 points up.  Given that Trump has boasted about every poll which put him in a good light, he isn't well placed to say he doesn't care about polls.

The fact remains - he has taken a beating even In the wake of a Muslim shooting 49 people to death.  How could that happen to a conservative politician?

Trump also seems to waste another benefit conservative politicians enjoy in the public's mind.  They are generally thought of as more likely to rein in debt and deficits.  That is questionable as they are obsessed with cutting taxes which increases deficits if they don't have the will or ability to offset them with spending cuts.  But the non-partisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget estimates Trump will push National debt to 127% of GDP by 2026 compared to 87% for Clinton - click HERE. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/donald-trump-debt_us_57701efbe4b0dbb1bbbae2c9?section=australia)  Of course, it's difficult to make predictions when Trump doesn't release any specific policies.  For instance, do you assume Trump will build a really wall and, if so, do you assume Mexico will foot the bill for it?  But this analysis makes it hard for Trump to run a scare campaign about Clinton spending the US into crippling debt in the same way as the LNP does here.  Yet another reason he is losing libertarian voters.  They are socially progressive but economically conservative.  He loses on both scores.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on June 27, 2016, 12:54:05 pm
Presumptive Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump launched the first in a series of attacks against rival Hillary Clinton Thursday, accusing the former secretary of state of lying to the families of those killed in an attack on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, Libya.

Trump's campaign, in a minute-long ad posted on its new "LyingCrookedHillary.com" website, contended that Clinton was aware that the Benghazi incident was a terrorist attack within hours, but "lied anyways," suggesting it was due to a YouTube video.

"She stood in front of the flag-draped coffins of four Americans that died serving their country and peddled the lie that the video was to blame both to the victims' families and the American public," the campaign posted on the website.

The video includes clips in which Clinton stated that American embassies saw violence over "an awful Internet video," a well as an interview in which Patricia Smith, the mother of victim Sean Smith, states, "she lied to me, she told me it was the fault of the video."

The ad is the first in a series of 10 "Legendary Lies" Trump's campaign said it will announce.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 27, 2016, 01:02:20 pm
Pity he's not the kind of candidate to make that smear campaign stick.  Honest Abe he aint.  He's the biggest liar and crook of them all.  Jumping on right-wing conspiracy theories will only please the wingnuts on the extreme right and he had already sewn up that voting block.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on June 27, 2016, 01:08:47 pm
He's a lunatic but Hillary is evil, American voters have a tough choice. Sanders was the obvious choice for mine.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 27, 2016, 01:35:16 pm
Apparently the Trumpster is beginning to tone things down a bit now as he realises he's heading into the presidential election phase.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 27, 2016, 01:46:56 pm
Evil?  She's been in politics for 25 years or so.  As with any other politician who has been around for that long, she has made mistakes and has changed policy positions. Just look at Turnbull.  Here's a guy who wanted a republic, wanted an emissions trading system and favoured a parliamentary vote on same-sex marriage.  Yet he sold out all of those positions to topple Abbott.  He also stuffed up the NBN.  But would you call him evil?

What you have in the US is a right-wing obsession with Obama and Clinton.  There are conspiracy nuts who concoct bizarre accounts about such things as Obama being a secret Muslim who was born in Kenya and Clinton refusing to assist the Ambassador in Benghazi.  The fact that one was the first black US President and the other hopes to be the first female President may not be just a coïncidence.  Let Trump peddle the Alex Jones conspiracy stories as if they were fact.  That's evil.  And Trump's bigotry and his reckless demagoguery is evil.  But Clinton is evil?  Hmmmm ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on June 27, 2016, 02:00:20 pm
Good thing I'm not a right wing american then.... ;D

She doesn't make mistakes. She lies and changes her position on big issues for personal gain which Obama highlighted when she went up against him 8 years ago.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 27, 2016, 02:29:42 pm
Personal or political gain?  As I noted above, you could say Turnbull changed his positions for political gain and any politician would have done the same many times over. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on June 27, 2016, 02:46:09 pm
How could that happen to a conservative politician?

Probably because he's not a conservative.
He's a populist flip flop who's detested by a large number of conservatives.

The Republican party now has to make a judgement.
They're heading for oblivion whichever way it goes but do they take a risk and try and block him...with all the associated drama and chaos that will entail.
A continued falling in the polls may make that move more likely.
It may be too late already which is why so  many prominent Republicans are ensuring there is plenty of distance between them and Trump.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 28, 2016, 11:06:50 am
Trump is now watering down his rhetoric.  He now doesn't intend to ban Muslims 'until we can figure out what's going on'.  Instead, he will ban the entry of citizens from countries with known links to terrorism until they are fully vetted.  He hasn't indicated which countries he means.

The polls aren't quite as negative for Trump as the national figures suggest.  Apparently, the figures in swing states are much closer.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on June 28, 2016, 11:32:18 am
Polls are about as useful as tits on a bull.

Recent polls indicated that Britain wouldnt exit.

Referendum result:  BRexit.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 28, 2016, 11:37:50 am
Apparently, history suggests polls are more reliable within 100 days of the election.  It's about 130 days away atm.

I assume the fact that the above threshold coincides with the completion of the GOP and Democratic Conventions isn't a mere coincidence.  By then, VP picks and policy platforms have been announced and the rest of the campaign is about persuasion.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on June 28, 2016, 01:08:50 pm
So as each days passes Trump back-flips on more and more of his radical proposals. By the time election day comes around he'll be a born again moderate!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 28, 2016, 03:06:39 pm
I'm not sure whether the ditching of the Muslim ban is a flip-flop rather than a decision to go for dog-whistling rather than full-on racism.

Let's face it, Trump's 'new' position may well end up being a lot like the old one.  No doubt the countries that will be targetted are Muslim countries.  And wouldn't it be a shock if a citizen of such a country could pass the vetting process by proving he or she isn't Muslim.  Presumably, Christians will be given the red carpet treatment.  Concessions may have to be made for Pakistan and Saudi Arabia because of their strategic importance to the US. 

Of course, that would pretty much put an end to any Syrian refugees entering the country unless they're Christians. 

If this system is extended to those who naturalised in other countries but were born in or are able to obtain passports in those Muslim countries, then it mops up a lot of French and Belgian Muslims.

Trump is just doing what the GOP has always done: trying to obscure his aim by saying it is something else.  The novel aspect of what he's doing is that he preceded the dogwhistle with blatant bigotry.  Previously, GOP politicians would have refused to admit their true motivation even if facing a firing squad. 

This novel aspect raises 2 questions:
1.  Will moderates be sucked in by the ditching of the explicit reference to Muslims?
2.  Will his bigoted supporters feel he has sold them out or will they accept that he has only changed his language to suck in stupid moderates but he remains every bit as bigoted as them?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 28, 2016, 03:13:49 pm
So as each days passes Trump back-flips on more and more of his radical proposals. By the time election day comes around he'll be a born again moderate!

Typical of populist politicians - promise the world and deliver an atlas. Same thing happening now with the  Brexiteers backing away from their funding promises for the NHS.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on June 28, 2016, 04:13:11 pm
Typical of populist politicians - promise the world and deliver an atlas. Same thing happening now with the  Brexiteers backing away from their funding promises for the NHS.

Or clever.

He has already won the Nutter vote, now he just needs to convince a few moderates that he's marginally normal and he is in.

Although I still prefer the theory that he is sabotaging his own campaign because he doesn't really want to win, he wants power and money without responsibility.

Hard to judge what he is up to because he swings like a weather-vane.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 28, 2016, 04:23:12 pm
Or clever.

He has already won the Nutter vote, now he just needs to convince a few moderates that he's marginally normal and he is in.

Although I still prefer the theory that he is sabotaging his own campaign because he doesn't really want to win, he wants power and money without responsibility.

Hard to judge what he is up to because he swings like a weather-vane.

Some people call them liars.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: blueday on June 28, 2016, 04:47:25 pm
Hear today...

Engaland and the US are in a race to see who can stuff up their countries the most. England is winning, but the US have a Trump card.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 28, 2016, 08:29:45 pm
Hear today...

Engaland and the US are in a race to see who can stuff up their countries the most. England is winning, but the US have a Trump card.

English are doing their best to bugger up our ecomomy...share market has lost 3%(panic sellers), my super has dropped off about 5K.....glad Iceland beat them in the soccer..
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 29, 2016, 11:25:01 am
It'll be interesting to see how the Turkish airport terror attack impacts the race.  Ordinarily, it should help Trump given it should drive xenophobia.  Yet he lost ground after the Orlando shootings.  Does he fare better when these attacks happen overseas?

His first response at one of his rallies was predictably poor.  He went on about the fact that something bad, something very bad is going on and we have to figure out what it is.  This is the sort of thing you'd expect from a moron or a primary school kid.  Hmmm ... I'm thinking that everyone knows that ISIS is almost certainly involved.  Of course, he is really dog whistling to the rightwing wingnuts.  The 'something' is that Obama is a secret Muslim and Clinton is helping him orchestrate a takeover of the US by radical Islamic terrorists.  But I hope Clinton uses his words in their literal sense to show how stupid and ignorant he is, clueless about how to deal with Terrorism.  After all, he doesn't even know what's going on let alone know how to address it.  That is how he would appear to moderates and independents.  At some point, she should remind the public that Trumps only involvement with the Middle East was to fall over himself to hire out one of his properties to Gaddafi when he visited the UN in New York, and this was after the Lockerbie tragedy.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on June 29, 2016, 11:42:14 am
It'll be interesting to see how the Turkish airport terror attack impacts the race.  Ordinarily, it should help Trump given it should drive xenophobia.  Yet he lost ground after the Orlando shootings.  Does he fare better when these attacks happen overseas?

His first response at one of his rallies was predictably poor.  He went on about the fact that something bad, something very bad is going on and we have to figure out what it is.  This is the sort of thing you'd expect from a moron or a primary school kid.  Hmmm ... I'm thinking that everyone knows that ISIS is almost certainly involved.  Of course, he is really dog whistling to the rightwing wingnuts.  The 'something' is that Obama is a secret Muslim and Clinton is helping him orchestrate a takeover of the US by radical Islamic terrorists.  But I hope Clinton uses his words in their literal sense to show how stupid and ignorant he is, clueless about how to deal with Terrorism.  After all, he doesn't even know what's going on let alone know how to address it.  That is how he would appear to moderates and independents.  At some point, she should remind the public that Trumps only involvement with the Middle East was to fall over himself to hire out one of his properties to Gaddafi when he visited the UN in New York, and this was after the Lockerbie tragedy.

I think it is wrong to assume he is stupid, perhaps he is just pandering to stupid people?

The media will come out and call him an idiot, and the true idiots will view that as media telling them how to think which only reinforces their support for Trump.

The media think labeling Trump an idiot helps Clinton, it's like the UK media labeling the Brexit foolish. The outcome may be the exact opposite of what they desire.

If the media do not want Trump, the media need to highlight to the voters that Trump is manipulating them. But I fear with their early grab for ratings through pandering to Trump's largess they may well have shot themselves in the foot. God help the media if Trump is in charge, they may have some real conspiracies to look out for, or he may just shot a few of them dead in the street and keep on walking.!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 29, 2016, 12:18:50 pm
I think it is wrong to assume he is stupid, perhaps he is just pandering to stupid people?
I explained that he is mostly dogwhistling and his feigned ignorance is just a device to avoid going nuclear with his secret Muslim conspiracy theory.

But Clinton and the media have to avoid being duped.  If they think it will help Trump if they point out his lies and ignorance because calling him out will make him stronger, he will win.  That's the mistake that the other Republican candidates made.  They realised too late that they needed to attack him rather than play nice.  The press were also slow in realising that they had to point out that the Emperor was wearing no clothes.

With Brexit, the economic argument mounted by the Leave campaign was mostly rebuffed by economists and the campaign then switched to an anti-immigration platform.  That doesn't prove that rational argument is pointless.  It appears the Remain campaign blundered by not making it sufficiently clear that the UK might have to agree to the free flow of EU workers if it wants to gain access to the single market, just as Norway does.

I reckon the obvious way to confront Trump is to draw him out.  Don't leave him talking generalities and promising that he'll fix everything if he wins.  His stumbles have occurred when the press has forced him to follow the logic of his positions to their logical conclusion.  For instance, he ended up conceding that pregnant women should be prosecuted if they sought abortions, a position Right to Lifers well know is politically toxic.  The Muslim ban has also drawn much criticism because it is obviously impossible to implement as much as for its racism.  Attack Trump on his ignorance about Terrorism and he won't be able to stop himself from taking the bait.  He'll go berserk at some rally or make an ill-considered late night tweet and frighten the horses to his own detriment.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on June 29, 2016, 12:23:53 pm
I don't think Trump is stupid, but he is strikingly inarticulate for someone running for public office.

He may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but he does have his share of rat cunning and dog whistling to the conspiracy theorists and right wing nut jobs is to be expected.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 29, 2016, 12:28:03 pm
I don't think Trump is stupid, but he is strikingly inarticulate for someone running for public office.

He may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but he does have his share of rat cunning and dog whistling to the conspiracy theorists and right wing nut jobs is to be expected.

It's interesting. Is he a complete lone wolf or is there an organised group, maybe even of conspiracy theorists, behind the scenes and he is only their front man pushing its agenda?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 29, 2016, 12:55:23 pm
You don't have to go undercover to find conspiracy nuts.  They're only too willing to share their views on the net and even in commercial broadcasts.  Fox News is happy to peddle various conspiracy theories, as is the GOP.  Both are happy to state as fact that Clinton sacrificed Americans in the Benghazi Consulate attack, that the Clintons murdered Vince Foster or that Obama is a foreign Muslim who forged his birth certificate.

But there are right-wing shock jocks who take it to a whole other level.  Alex Jones is way out there and propogates more conspiracy theories than anyone else, unifying them by reference to the New World Order.

Has anyone watched Fox News?  It's amazing how smoothly conspiracy theories and baseless assertions are stated as indisputable fact and they just form the baseline for further discussions.  I can imagine it is effective brainwashing for ignorant or uncritical viewers.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on June 29, 2016, 04:14:22 pm
If you think Trump has no chance you need to look at this video and know that these witch's views are reflective of what a lot of Americans think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIvAgKrq4tc
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 29, 2016, 05:06:16 pm
That's a typical Fox News segment, though, and the sort of nonsense I've been talking about.  At least Andrea Tarantaros got the bullet, but it had nothing to do with her twisted views.  The gossip is that a book deal she struck ran foul of Roger Ailes, the all-powerful boss of Fox News.

The theme of that segment is repeated many times a day on Fox News and Trump is firmly on the bandwagon.  Obama is a very rational guy - he's very much like Mr Spock.  He is of the belief that a key to confronting terrorists is to avoid being drawn into incendiary reactions, whether in words or military actiouns.  What Fox News wants him to do is to declare a Holy War against Radical Islamic TerrorTM and blow a lot of crap up in the Middle East.  Many counter-terrorism and Middle East experts agree with Obama's approach as it doesn't create the impression of the US attacking Muslims which ISIS can use as a recruiting tool.  But to Fox News and Trump, this can only be a sign that Obama is a secret Muslim who is either soft on terrorism or complicit in it.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 29, 2016, 06:05:26 pm
That's a typical Fox News segment, though, and the sort of nonsense I've been talking about.  At least Andrea Tarantaros got the bullet, but it had nothing to do with her twisted views.  The gossip is that a book deal she struck ran foul of Roger Ailes, the all-powerful boss of Fox News.

The theme of that segment is repeated many times a day on Fox News and Trump is firmly on the bandwagon.  Obama is a very rational guy - he's very much like Mr Spock.  He is of the belief that a key to confronting terrorists is to avoid being drawn into incendiary reactions, whether in words or military actiouns.  What Fox News wants him to do is to declare a Holy War against Radical Islamic TerrorTM and blow a lot of crap up in the Middle East.  Many counter-terrorism and Middle East experts agree with Obama's approach as it doesn't create the impression of the US attacking Muslims which ISIS can use as a recruiting tool.  But to Fox News and Trump, this can only be a sign that Obama is a secret Muslim who is either soft on terrorism or complicit in it.

The US approach to dealing with threats these days, especially Islamic ones, is via undercover operations via organisations such as SOCOM, use of drones, air strikes etc., and assination of leadership figures. Large scale boots on the ground operations are conducted by local forces as we have just seen in Fallujah. It's all pretty low profile and not something they want to draw a lot of media attention to.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on June 29, 2016, 06:24:29 pm
Yep.  Obviously, that strategy can be debated.  It can be attacked from both the left and the right.  The drone program makes the left uneasy as opponents suggest it amounts to extra-judicial killings of alleged criminals. Right-wingers want to see a military response but they rarely concede that Americans might be in danger and they can't explain how military campaigns will eliminate terrorism and internet propaganda.  Trump says he'll kill ISIS but won't explain what he'd do to achieve this.  He won't exclude "boots on the ground" but also won't make any large-scale commitment.  Apparently, just seeing him elected to the presidency will be enough for them to give up.

I like Obama's low-profile strategy.  The fact is that the Middle East will inevitably have less strategic importance in the future as oil becomes less important.  There is a humanitarian dimension, of course, but I doubt whether American military intervention is very effective in solving those issues.  All it does is play into then hands of jihadis.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 29, 2016, 09:30:31 pm
Yep.  Obviously, that strategy can be debated.  It can be attacked from both the left and the right.  The drone program makes the left uneasy as opponents suggest it amounts to extra-judicial killings of alleged criminals. Right-wingers want to see a military response but they rarely concede that Americans might be in danger and they can't explain how military campaigns will eliminate terrorism and internet propaganda.  Trump says he'll kill ISIS but won't explain what he'd do to achieve this.  He won't exclude "boots on the ground" but also won't make any large-scale commitment.  Apparently, just seeing him elected to the presidency will be enough for them to give up.

I like Obama's low-profile strategy.  The fact is that the Middle East will inevitably have less strategic importance in the future as oil becomes less important.  There is a humanitarian dimension, of course, but I doubt whether American military intervention is very effective in solving those issues.  All it does is play into then hands of jihadis.

Very true and in fact the hands of the Americans are seen by some as being blood soaked as far as that is concerned and over a very long period of time. Noam Chomsky is very eloquent on this. I won't say any more for fear of being perceived as "radicalised".
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on June 30, 2016, 08:50:20 am
http://www.afr.com/news/world/north-america/donald-trump-calls-tpp-trade-deal-a-rape-of-the-us-20160629-gpujz8

Quote
He attacked Ms Clinton on her past support for the Trans-Pacific Partnership, a trade pact negotiated by the Obama government, and challenged her to pledge she would void the agreement in its entirety.

Noting Ms Clinton had backed free-trade agreements such as NAFTA in the past, Mr Trump warned: "She will betray you again."

At a rally later in the day in eastern Ohio, Mr Trump attacked the Trans-Pacific Partnership in more provocative terms, saying it was a "rape of our country".


"Smokin Joe" hits back  ;)

Quote
Joe Hockey ‏@JoeHockey 5h5 hours ago

4 July marks 98 years of Aus &USA fighting side by side in battle. Any talk of "rape" by Aus in TPP with USA is offensive and dead wrong.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on June 30, 2016, 09:37:17 am
Trump sounding like Nigel Farage!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 01, 2016, 12:30:02 pm
OMG ...

A claim alleging that Trump raped a 13yo in 1994 after tying her to a bed has been filed in a NY Federal Court.  A 5 year limitation period expired a long time ago but the clock can be stopped if she was intimidated as she claims she was.  Just the revelation that he hung around with a billionaire convicted paedophile, Jeffrey Epstein, should raise eyebrows.

https://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/316341058/Donald-Trump-Jeffrey-Epstein-Rape-Lawsuit-and-Affidavits#fullscreen?platform=hootsuite (https://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/316341058/Donald-Trump-Jeffrey-Epstein-Rape-Lawsuit-and-Affidavits#fullscreen?platform=hootsuite)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-bloom/why-the-new-child-rape-ca_b_10619944.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-bloom/why-the-new-child-rape-ca_b_10619944.html)

How can this guy be a Presidential candidate?  There's no way he could be elected to a local council over here while facing legal action over both rape and fraud.  If he had shown the slightest decency towards others, one might feel some sympathy for him given these are unproven allegations.  But he has repeatedly smeared others with nothing more than conjecture or conspiracy theories to back him up: e.g.  accusing the Clintons of murder, Ted Cruz's father of being party to the assassination of JFK or Obama of faking his birth certificate and being a Muslim supporter of islamic terrorists.  He gets no sympathy from me at all.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on July 01, 2016, 12:40:02 pm
@Mav

An interesting development indeed!

Then again it was highly unlikely that the establishment would sit back and be "Trumped" for the presidential nomination. At least his assassination, if that's what it turns out to be, is metaphorical atm.

Keep you eye on Brexit too - developments there over the coming months will be illuminating.  ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 01, 2016, 01:24:23 pm
Just the revelation that he hung around with a billionaire convicted paedophile, Jeffrey Epstein, should raise eyebrows.

Yep
But does that apply to the Clintons as well
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 01, 2016, 01:29:26 pm
It has to be said that the Jeffrey Epstein factor could also take down Clinton, but unless a complainant comes forward against him then mere association isn't necessarily fatal.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/30/the-billionaire-pedophile-who-could-bring-down-donald-trump-and-hillary-clinton.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/30/the-billionaire-pedophile-who-could-bring-down-donald-trump-and-hillary-clinton.html)

So, a Cruz v Sanders contest isn't impossible.  You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried ...

PS: Lods, I didn't see your post until I submitted mine.  But as you can see, we are in heated agreement.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 01, 2016, 01:39:45 pm
It has to be said that the Jeffrey Epstein factor could also take down Clinton, but unless a complainant comes forward against him then mere association isn't necessarily fatal.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/30/the-billionaire-pedophile-who-could-bring-down-donald-trump-and-hillary-clinton.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/30/the-billionaire-pedophile-who-could-bring-down-donald-trump-and-hillary-clinton.html)

So, a Cruz v Sanders contest isn't impossible.  You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried ...

PS: Lods, I didn't see your post until I submitted mine.  But as you can see, we are in heated agreement.

Prince Andrew gets a guernsey too.
Yes mav
I wouldn't be surprised if neither of the presumptive nominees make it to the start line.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Bear on July 01, 2016, 02:49:24 pm
Bill Clinton... scandal... really?

This article isn't a bad read on where Slick Willie is at: http://www.gq.com/story/bill-clinton-health-trump-and-hillary (http://www.gq.com/story/bill-clinton-health-trump-and-hillary)

Actually mentions another similar sounding scandal involving a different billionaire!

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 06, 2016, 09:36:54 am
The FBI has announced there will be no charges against Hillary over her email server.  The Benghazi Committee released its report a week ago and it was a fizzer.  There goes Sanders' last hope for the withdrawal of Hillary.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 06, 2016, 09:39:52 am
The FBI has announced there will be no charges against Hillary over her email server.  The Benghazi Committee released its report a week ago and it was a fizzer.  There goes Sanders' last hope for the withdrawal of Hillary.

Corruption at the highest level.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on July 06, 2016, 09:44:27 am
Corruption at the highest level.

Hilary is after all a candidate of and for "the establishment".
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 06, 2016, 11:25:10 am
Jim Comey, the head of the FBI is about the most impartial decision-maker you could hope to find.  He's a registered Republican and donated to the McCain and Romney presidential campaigns.  He has prosecuted without fear or favour in the past.  If he decided that there were no reasonable prospects of successfully prosecuting Hillary, then that's that.  But he didn't simply clear her.  He went on to pull the rug out from under her by declaring that a couple of her excuses were false.  That has given Trump a lot of ammunition and tends to undercut the idea that he was merely an Establishment figure who was hellbent on protecting Hillary.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 07, 2016, 07:23:54 am
The fact that she was given a "pass" is a huge win for her.
Obama launched himself into the campaign shortly after with a passionate speech of support....he was probably just waiting for the clearance.

This was really Trump's last card.
His crap wont stick.
Fox news will keep it bubbling but....
She'll skip away now.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on July 07, 2016, 11:06:00 am
The FBI has announced there will be no charges against Hillary over her email server.  The Benghazi Committee released its report a week ago and it was a fizzer.  There goes Sanders' last hope for the withdrawal of Hillary.

That's not what they announced Mav. They simply said it was up to the DoJ. The FBI simply makes 'recommendations'.

U.S. Code Section  793 - "Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information" subsection (f), intent in this case is not required for prosection:

Quote
Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

From the FBI dude's ramble:

Quote
Although we did not find clear evidence that Secretary Clinton or her colleagues intended to violate laws governing the handling of classified information, there is evidence that they were extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information.

For example, seven e-mail chains concern matters that were classified at the Top Secret/Special Access Program level when they were sent and received. These chains involved Secretary Clinton both sending e-mails about those matters and receiving e-mails from others about the same matters. There is evidence to support a conclusion that any reasonable person in Secretary Clinton’s position, or in the position of those government employees with whom she was corresponding about these matters, should have known that an unclassified system was no place for that conversation. In addition to this highly sensitive information, we also found information that was properly classified as Secret by the U.S. Intelligence Community at the time it was discussed on e-mail (that is, excluding the later “up-classified” e-mails).

None of these e-mails should have been on any kind of unclassified system, but their presence is especially concerning because all of these e-mails were housed on unclassified personal servers not even supported by full-time security staff, like those found at Departments and Agencies of the U.S. Government—or even with a commercial service like Gmail.

Separately, it is important to say something about the marking of classified information. Only a very small number of the e-mails containing classified information bore markings indicating the presence of classified information. But even if information is not marked “classified” in an e-mail, participants who know or should know that the subject matter is classified are still obligated to protect it.

While not the focus of our investigation, we also developed evidence that the security culture of the State Department in general, and with respect to use of unclassified e-mail systems in particular, was generally lacking in the kind of care for classified information found elsewhere in the government.

With respect to potential computer intrusion by hostile actors, we did not find direct evidence that Secretary Clinton’s personal e-mail domain, in its various configurations since 2009, was successfully hacked. But, given the nature of the system and of the actors potentially involved, we assess that we would be unlikely to see such direct evidence. We do assess that hostile actors gained access to the private commercial e-mail accounts of people with whom Secretary Clinton was in regular contact from her personal account. We also assess that Secretary Clinton’s use of a personal e-mail domain was both known by a large number of people and readily apparent. She also used her personal e-mail extensively while outside the United States, including sending and receiving work-related e-mails in the territory of sophisticated adversaries. Given that combination of factors, we assess it is possible that hostile actors gained access to Secretary Clinton’s personal e-mail account.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/statement-by-fbi-director-james-b.-comey-on-the-investigation-of-secretary-hillary-clintons-use-of-a-personal-e-mail-system (https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/statement-by-fbi-director-james-b.-comey-on-the-investigation-of-secretary-hillary-clintons-use-of-a-personal-e-mail-system)

Interestingly he essentially makes out the case against Hillary with a lot of emphasis on 'intent' - which is irrelevant.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 07, 2016, 01:06:12 pm
More chance of us winning the flag this year than Justice charging Hillary.  Presumably, Comey did a presser and spoke at length to prevent conspiracy theories that Loretta Lynch gave Hillary a pass even though the FBI wanted her charged.  This way, Loretta Lynch has washed her hands of it à la Pontius Pilate.

EDIT :  There ya go, Loretta Lynch has made it official - http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/attorney-general-loretta-lynch-says-doj-will-not-pursue-charges-against-clinton-225189 (http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/attorney-general-loretta-lynch-says-doj-will-not-pursue-charges-against-clinton-225189)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 07, 2016, 01:32:25 pm
Why did Loretta meet with Bill last week again? ;D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 07, 2016, 01:43:22 pm
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-everyone-looks-bad-because-bill-clinton-met-with-loretta-lynch/2016/07/02/a7807adc-3ff4-11e6-a66f-aa6c1883b6b1_story.html
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 08, 2016, 07:46:07 am
The fact that she was given a "pass" is a huge win for her.
Obama launched himself into the campaign shortly after with a passionate speech of support....he was probably just waiting for the clearance.

This was really Trump's last card.
His crap wont stick.
Fox news will keep it bubbling but....
She'll skip away now.

It's a disgrace Lods.

Comey gave every reason for Hilary to face indictment, then he made up a new legal standard of "extreme carelessness" and that such behavior is not "gross negligence".
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on July 08, 2016, 01:29:01 pm
Hilary will be judged now in the court of public opinion. She may have another problem to overcome though, in that she told the same lies to Congress, which is apparently a felony. We await developments with interest. As the US reporter said, it's fortunate for her that she is up against Trump, the only person in the US that is less trustworthy than her, otherwise she would already be history.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 09, 2016, 10:22:59 am
As often happens in election campaigns, events have a way of changing the debate.  That means that smart candidates make hay while the sun shines.  That means when the opponent is under fire you don't do anything to draw attention away from whatever that issue is.  But Trump can't help himself.  Right in the middle of the email story, he retweets the Star of David meme which originated on a white supremacist site.  Own goal!  Yes, it dogwhistles to white supremecist voters but he has them locked in anyway.

Now the focus has shifted away from emails to white cops killing black guys and black snipers killing white cops.  Hmmm... what was that email issue again, I forget.

This turn of events can work to the advantage of both sides.  For Trump and his white supremacist mates, a race war is manna from heaven and as an authoritarian he would love to be the Patron Saint of police officers.  Already, some Republicans have blamed Obama and Clinton for the killings  ::)

On the other hand, black people have further proof that racism needs to be addressed or it will continue to polarise whites and blacks to their disadvantage.  Even wealthy and privileged black people understand that their wealth and celebrity won't necessarily protect their children.  And the fact that the shooter had a cache of weapons raises the gun control issue.  That he was a former military guy puts into question the theory that the way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun.  The military and police are both supposed to be good guys, no?  I'm praying that the shooter wasn't Muslim ...

And there's just been an announcement that Zika has killed its first American, a guy in his 70s.  This while the GOP is trying to defund birth control measures.  Early doubts that Zika causes microcephaly have been erased.  But Microcephaly isn't the only condition it causes.  The consensus is that it also causes Guillain-Barré disease and it literally eats fetal brain tissue and attacks the eyes etc.  And it can be spread by sex as well as by mosquito.  It therefore raises questions of birth control, protected sex, abortion and healthcare, all of which help the Democrats.  It wouldn't be hard to draw in global warming as well given that increasingly tropical conditions in the South will leave it vulnerable to tropical diseases.  Now summer has arrived in the US, the Zika issue will draw more attention.

The campaign is a marathon and this week has shown that no one can control the agenda for very long.  There'll no doubt be dozens of unforeseen twists before this thing is done.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on July 09, 2016, 11:05:47 am
I really think Trump doesn't want to win, he wants to profit and he has already achieved that.

Unfortunately for him the events are conspiring to deliver him the top job, that seems to encourage a new round of self-harm doing his very best to unravel those gains.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 09, 2016, 11:16:05 am
I doubt that.  As if a narcissist such as Trump would turn down the presidency if it were handed to him on a plate.  Taking the job doesn't mean he'll have to do heaps.  He can essentially delegate his responsibilities.  Let's face it, Ronnie Reagan still served despite being addled by Alzheimers.  And Dick Cheney was perfectly willing to run the White House for Dubya who had to beat him off with a stick.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on July 09, 2016, 02:33:36 pm
I love how Hillary delivered a campaign speech in front of Trump's failed casino in Atlantic City.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 09, 2016, 03:21:32 pm
I love how Hillary delivered a campaign speech in front of Trump's failed casino in Atlantic City.

She could have picked nearly any of his business ventures if she wanted a failure as a backdrop..... ;) successful businessman ...No....lucky heir  to plenty of money..yes...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on July 09, 2016, 04:32:04 pm
Hilary? Be very careful what you wish for.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 09, 2016, 07:15:34 pm
I'd take her every day of the week and twice on Sundays given the alternative.  It's not even close.  Trump would be a disaster in every facet of government.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on July 09, 2016, 07:18:36 pm
I'd take her every day of the week and twice on Sundays given the alternative.  It's not even close.  Trump would be a disaster in every facet of government.

Just because Trump would be a disaster does not mean she would be any good. It's a choice  between the Devil and the deep blue sea IMO. She is a proven liar.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on July 09, 2016, 07:22:43 pm
She could have picked nearly any of his business ventures if she wanted a failure as a backdrop..... ;) successful businessman ...No....lucky heir  to plenty of money..yes...

A great Jewish quote really applies to Trump...'He's very lucky his father was born before him.'
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 09, 2016, 07:46:25 pm
Just because Trump would be a disaster does not mean she would be any good. It's a choice  between the Devil and the deep blue sea IMO. She is a proven liar.
OMG, a politician who lies.  Fancy that. 

How would we characterise those lies?  Has she claimed that intelligence proves that Saddam Hussein had WMDs?  Did she delete 5 million emails to thwart an investigation into whether the White House had engineered the dismissal of 8 US Attorneys?  What about swiftboating and hanging chads?  Please explain how she could be anywhere near as bad as the last Republican in the White House. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on July 09, 2016, 07:56:53 pm
OMG, a politician who lies.  Fancy that. 

How would we characterise those lies?  Has she claimed that intelligence proves that Saddam Hussein had WMDs?  Did she delete 5 million emails to thwart an investigation into whether the White House had engineered the dismissal of 8 US Attorneys?  What about swiftboating and hanging chads?  Please explain how she could be anywhere near as bad as the last Republican in the White House.

If you're satisfied Mav then that's your call mate.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 09, 2016, 08:13:43 pm
Of course it would be better if a conservative got in because they tell the truth.  Maybe that's because they live their lives according to God's word.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on July 09, 2016, 09:08:09 pm
Of course it would be better if a conservative got in because they tell the truth.  Maybe that's because they live their lives according to God's word.

I don't think I was making that claim. What gave you that idea?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 09, 2016, 09:18:07 pm
I can't make out any claim you're making.  Apart from claiming that lies disqualify candidates and mean they can't do the job well.  I tend to agree with Machiavelli that a politician who can't tell a lie has no business being in charge of a country.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on July 09, 2016, 09:50:24 pm
I can't make out any claim you're making.  Apart from claiming that lies disqualify candidates and mean they can't do the job well.  I tend to agree with Machiavelli that a politician who can't tell a lie has no business being in charge of a country.

I'm expressing my view that just because Trump would likely make a disastrous president doesn't mean that Hilary would necessarily make a good one. If she gets the gig prepare to be disappointed - it would be an appointment to be endured not celebrated IMO. If you're happy to be lied to and led by the nose then that is undoubtedly your own choice - personally I'd prefer someone a bit better than that. Maybe I'm just asking for too much?

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 09, 2016, 10:04:54 pm
The conventional wisdom, at least amongst Democrats, is that Hillary is a poor campaigner but is a good operator when she wins.  She's not my dream candidate - Barack Obama is.  She would start her presidency, though, with an advantage over Obama 2008.  She realises just how partisan and obstructive the GOP is and she won't repeat Obama's naïveté in that regard.  She's spent well over 2 decades standing at ground zero while the GOP went nuclear against Bill and her.  She won't make the mistake of thinking she can appeal to Congress for goodwill and bipartisanship.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on July 09, 2016, 10:29:20 pm
Just because Trump would be a disaster does not mean she would be any good. It's a choice  between the Devil and the deep blue sea IMO. She is a proven liar.

How can you tell if a politician is lying?

Their lips are moving.

Of course, you can substitute many other occupations for politicians without affecting the validity of the observation.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on July 09, 2016, 10:32:24 pm
How can you tell if a politician is lying?

Their lips are moving.

Of course, you can substitute many other occupations for politicians without affecting the validity of the observation.

Golden oldie there DJC!  ;)

Anyway, poor Hillary hasn't even mastered the basic stock in trade of a politician if that were the case - hasn't she been caught out numerous times on even some pretty pathetic ones?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on July 09, 2016, 10:38:37 pm
Golden oldie there DJC!  ;)

Anyway, poor Hillary hasn't even mastered the basic stock in trade of a politician if that were the case - hasn't she been caught out numerous times on even some pretty pathetic ones?

She has been anointed by the powers that be, the rest is white noise.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on July 09, 2016, 10:47:07 pm
She has been anointed by the powers that be, the rest is white noise.

Yep.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 10, 2016, 06:20:54 am
An inanimate carbon rod could beat Hillary. ;)
A very average candidate who struggled to put away an elderly socialist dreamer.

Unfortunately for Donald Trump he is no "inanimate carbon rod".
He has no chance.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 12, 2016, 09:38:46 pm
This is a good article about the conventional wisdom I've mentioned before, namely that Hillary is a bad campaigner but good when she gets a job: http://www.vox.com/a/hillary-clinton-interview/the-gap-listener-leadership-quality (http://www.vox.com/a/hillary-clinton-interview/the-gap-listener-leadership-quality).

It analyses both her strengths and weaknesses.

Unsurprisingly, Trump and Hillary are opposites - she builds alliances and is a good listener while Trump loves talking, mostly about himself, rather than listening to the views of others; she takes into account many views before making a decision whereas Trump makes decisions more quickly; she has a proven record of working co-operatively with those who have attacked her in the past while he feels the need to settle scores or humiliate those who have challenged him.  The only thing that they share in common is a distrust and low opinion of the press.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 19, 2016, 03:31:09 pm
 :-[
oops
Looks like Ted Cruz (and Michelle Obama) may have written Melania's speech. ;)

http://www.vox.com/2016/7/19/12221566/melania-trump-michelle-obama


Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 19, 2016, 04:51:44 pm
Bad luck for her that she took credit for writing it "with as little help as possible".  Not that you'd expect that a former model with a thick Slovenian accent would have any difficulty throwing together a wonderful oration.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on July 19, 2016, 05:08:36 pm
The "Delegates Unbound" group made for an interesting start to the convention.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 20, 2016, 09:40:54 am
Very interesting article about Trump: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all).

It details the experiences of the ghostwriter who wrote 'The Art of the Deal' for Trump and tries to analyse Trump's character, or, more correctly, the lack of it.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 20, 2016, 11:23:17 am
Bad luck for her that she took credit for writing it "with as little help as possible".  Not that you'd expect that a former model with a thick Slovenian accent would have any difficulty throwing together a wonderful oration.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-accused-of-plagiarism-in-speech/
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: sandsmere on July 20, 2016, 11:31:17 am
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-accused-of-plagiarism-in-speech/

Dated 2008.

Hardly relevant today.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 20, 2016, 11:43:25 am
Dated 2008.

Hardly relevant today.

Pathetic how the same people bashing Trump for being a sexist pig are happy to got to town on this poor woman for doing what they all do.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on July 20, 2016, 06:02:02 pm
Bad luck for her that she took credit for writing it "with as little help as possible".  Not that you'd expect that a former model with a thick Slovenian accent would have any difficulty throwing together a wonderful oration.

It just shows that Donald is right; immigrants are going to the US and stealing from Americans.  I'm not sure that he meant speeches though.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Bear on July 20, 2016, 08:05:01 pm
Pathetic how the same people bashing Trump for being a sexist pig are happy to got to town on this poor woman for doing what they all do.

She isn't poor, but good point.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 20, 2016, 10:02:16 pm
So funny, MBB!  If you're going to try to pull a sexism counter-attack, best not resort to the 'poor woman' trope.  A 'poor woman' is a helpless victim who needs the protection of a strong male.  That's not really the way someone who is serious about sexism would talk.  As Bear points out, she certainly isn't poor by any normal metric - she's privilege personified.

The next error is to suggest that she was attacked "for doing what they all do" while also pointing out that the same allegation was made against Obama.  The latter point highlights that political speeches are routinely scrutinised by opponents to see if they contain any plagiarism.  Once spotted, such plagiarism is always the subject of comment whether the one who makes the speech is male or female.  And politicians do their best to avoid falling into this trap, with speeches being carefully vetted to avoid unintentional plagiarism.  So, not everybody does it and when caught out all those who do it are roasted.

So what was the attack, and who really was the target?  You don't think the attack is really directed at Trump?  Wasn't it attacking Trump's relentless dishonesty?  He or his campaign had Melania say that she wrote the whole speech "with as little help as possible".  That is clearly a lie as is apparent from the media autopsy.  The speechwriters were all over it, though the latest suggestion is that the plagiarised text was added after it was finally vetted.  I don't think anyone would have cared if she said that she left it to speechwriters given she isn't a native English speaker.  And if she had, the allegations of plagiarism would have been levelled at the speechwriters rather than Melania.  But the lie put her right in it.  Even if she hadn't claimed authorship, Trump's campaign staff probably wouldn't have wanted to accept the blame as it would feed a perception of incompetence, disorganisation and deceptiveness.

But I reckon it has Trump's fingerprints all over it.  If the media reports that the offending text was added after final vetting are true, surely he's the most likely suspect.  It's safe to say Melania didn't add it herself.  We know Trump liked Michelle Obama's speech - he tweeted his approval when she gave it.  We know he likes rebadging the work of white supremacists such as the picture of Hillary superimposed on a pile of cash and with a comment in a Star of David.

And we also know that Trump just has to say that everything in his world is just the greatest in all respects.  He just couldn't let Melania admit she isn't the world's greatest wordsmith.  He wants to show that Melania is every bit as eloquent as Michelle Obama, so much so that they say pretty much the same things!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 21, 2016, 09:06:21 am
It doesn't matter a lot who "copied other folk's homework" in the past.
What matters is the "now".
That's why this is a problem.

Trump needs a good convention.
He needs a mistake free convention, and one that at least gives the impression that the party is healing the wounds and coming together.

Had Melania's speech not contained the "copied" parts it would have been seen as a real positive.
Unfortunately it took the focus away, from not only the speech, but a very positive start to the convention. (Some minor hiccups over procedural matters was quickly quashed).

The next few days may present a few problems for Trump....Ted Cruz to speak....but he needs it to stay positive and united.

There's also the elephant in the room (or not in the room). John Kasich the governor of Ohio is not present at a convention in his own state. (No Bushes either)..That probably reflects more on Kasich but clearly demonstrates there are still major divisions and opposition to Trump in the party.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 21, 2016, 12:23:12 pm
What a shambles!

Two speakers have pointedly refused to endorse Trump.  A female astronaut failed to read out the penultimate sentence in her written speech which was a statement that Trump was the man to make America great.  The fact that the campaign had released the text made the omission obvious.

More importantly, Cruz refused to endorse Trump despite the crowd shouting at him to do so.  There was loud booing at the end of the speech and Trump came out into the crowd, seemingly to distract attention from the debacle that was unfolding.

How desperate it was for Trump to recruit Cruz as a speaker when in all likelihood Trump's personal attacks on Cruz and Cruz's desire to run in 2020 would make it impossible for him to endorse Trump.

Thankfully, Trump has 4 children who can be trusted to endorse him.  And he can always be sure that current Trump employees won't stab him in the back, not if they want to keep their jobs.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 21, 2016, 01:14:10 pm
Second Lieutenant Michael Pence may have a difficult time if Hilary Clinton is his new Commander in Chief. :D

Off to the Aleutian Islands ;D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on July 21, 2016, 02:06:11 pm
I couldn't stand watching the whole speech but it was interesting listening to Cruz defining freedom; if it conforms to my ideology, it's freedom.  If it doesn't, it's not.

The conference is a debacle and is perhaps a look into the future of a Trump administration.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 21, 2016, 04:38:12 pm
Yep, conservatives seem to use Orwell's 1984 as a blueprint.  They love to rebadge oppression as 'freedom'.  Of course, in a sense they are right.  If you limit someone's ability to oppress others, you limit his or her freedom to do as he or she pleases.  For instance, the Magna Carta certainly reduced the Monarchy's power and freedom.

Conservative Christians such as Cruz and Pence believe that gays are an abomination and their lives should be a misery in this world and the next.  They believe that the Bible gives them the right to oppress such sinners.  But demanding the right to discriminate and ostracise them isn't good PR.  Why not rebadge the Right to Discriminate as a fight for the Freedom of Religion?  Hell yeah! 

They love to twist the 1st Amendment which states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ...".  This explicitly prohibits attempts by the US or State Governments to declare Christianity as the religion of the US but that hasn't stopped the Christian Right from demanding this anyway.  The Supreme Court ruled that: "Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere [religious] opinion, but was left free to reach [only those religious] actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order." 

In other words, the First Amendment didn't allow people to invoke their religion to excuse them from obeying the laws of the land, the prohibition on discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation in the provision of services being one such law.  Attempts by Pence and others to grant a right to discriminate were deemed unconstitutional.

The funny thing is that this social conservative agenda runs counter to libertarian values and the desire to minimise Government interference in the lives of citizens.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on July 21, 2016, 05:38:11 pm
They want a weakened state when it suits them, and a strong state when it doesn't.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 22, 2016, 08:18:50 pm
Ok, this has nothing to do with the topic but I couldn't help myself:

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/dd/3c/c7/dd3cc75a950a63ca737ef7107bd8be2f.jpg)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 23, 2016, 10:15:51 pm
http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/wikileaks-trove-plunges-democrats-into-crisis-on-eve-of-convetion-20160723-gqcamq.html
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: sandsmere on July 24, 2016, 05:41:41 am
Trump or Clinton. . . . Bloody Hell.

I can't remember a presidential election with such poor candidates.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on July 24, 2016, 08:55:33 am
Trump or Clinton. . . . Bloody Hell.

I can't remember a presidential election with such poor candidates.

And one of those clowns will have their finger on the button. One is subtly conniving and the other is too stupid to be subtle about anything.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: laj on July 24, 2016, 05:58:06 pm
Trump or Clinton. . . . Bloody Hell.

I can't remember a presidential election with such poor candidates.

Clinton's experience and steadiness in politics will see her win easily despite being a bit crooked. She'll still do the job ok. She knows the drill well as does her husband. Trump is way too loony with some crazy thoughts. When it comes down to it that'll be the decider.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on July 24, 2016, 07:18:13 pm
Trump = Uncertainty

Hilary = Just more of the same.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 24, 2016, 08:18:01 pm
Clinton's experience and steadiness in politics will see her win easily despite being a bit crooked.

Corruption is the only reason she is still here but her run is over. Americans don't trust her.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on July 24, 2016, 10:12:20 pm
Corruption is the only reason she is still here but her run is over. Americans don't trust her.

Not according to the polls.

Clinton is lucky that Trump got the nomination.  Virtually any of the other Republican candidates would have walked it in but Clinton is in with a real chance against the Trumpster.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 24, 2016, 10:49:59 pm
http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/us-fears-over-donald-trumps-connections-with-vladimir-putins-russia-20160723-gqcg8p.html (http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/us-fears-over-donald-trumps-connections-with-vladimir-putins-russia-20160723-gqcg8p.html)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Juddkreuzer on July 25, 2016, 01:55:31 am
Not according to the polls.

Clinton is lucky that Trump got the nomination.  Virtually any of the other Republican candidates would have walked it in but Clinton is in with a real chance against the Trumpster.

God I hope your right DJ.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on July 25, 2016, 08:33:28 am
Mike Moore predicting a Trump victory via "The Last Stand of  the Angry White Man".
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 25, 2016, 08:52:03 am
You couldn't dream up some of this stuff.
If it wasn't so serious it would be hilarious.
Some absolutely outrageous connections are being made....the disturbing thing is that some of them may in fact have elements of truth behind them.

The conditions are forming for some even more dramatic moments, interventions and incidents as this campaign rolls along.

You write one side off (I did a week or two back) after a slow couple of weeks and then the other side will do or say (in Trump's case) something outrageous or stupid and it's back to "even stevens" again.

Russians, Wikileaks, Ted Cruz, Ted Cruz's dad and JFK, e-mails..... it's a circus.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 25, 2016, 10:32:34 am
Fancy the DNC playing politics behind the scenes.  Who would have thought a political party would do that?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 25, 2016, 10:50:05 am
Fancy the DNC playing politics behind the scenes.  Who would have thought a political party would do that?

Fancy Trump playing up to the red neck republicans?  Works both ways, you can't paint one guy as the devil then say the other side is just playing the game.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 25, 2016, 10:58:24 am
You mean playing up to white supremacists?  'Redneck Republicans' is a whitewash.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 26, 2016, 12:18:59 pm
Michelle Obama - what a speaker!  No wonder Melania Trump tried to steal her words.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 26, 2016, 12:29:49 pm
Corey Booker also hit it out of the park.  A future candidate à la Barack Obama after delivering a great speech as a junior senator.

He may even have become Clinton's running mate if he hadn't been from a State with a Republican Governor.  He's from New Jersey and Chris Christie is the Governor.  If Corey Booker became VP, he'd vacate his seat and Christie would be able to appoint a Republican to fill the vacancy.  As the Democrats are desperate to win back control of the Senate, they can't afford to give the Republicans a 2 seat swing.

Control of the Senate will have an immediate impact as there is a vacancy to fill on the Supreme Court and perhaps another 2 vacancies to fill shortly afterwards.  The Republicans have used their control of the Senate to repeatedly block appointments to the Federal Courts.  Republican Senators have even blocked votes on judicial candidates that they themselves have proposed.

PS: Tim Kaine is a Senator from Virginia whose Governor is a Democrat.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 26, 2016, 12:39:35 pm
Sanders was booed by his own supporters.

It has been a disastrous start for the democrats and with more emails to come it's going to get worse.






Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 26, 2016, 01:00:49 pm
Shut it all down and send in the administrators :(

US=Utterly Screwed
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 26, 2016, 01:17:08 pm
Strong endorsements have been delivered by Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren.  That will be followed up by appearances on the campaign trail.  Sure, there will be Bernie Bros who won't come into the fold, but I doubt they were ever Democrats anyway.  Like in any campaign, Bernie put together a coalition of disparate voting groups and some of them viewed Sanders as a means of advancing their own views rather than seeing him as a messiah.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 26, 2016, 01:56:40 pm
Sanders and Warren are sellouts, at least Cruz stood by his own principles.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 26, 2016, 02:04:43 pm
As mav said Sanders was a means to an end for a number of left-wing interest groups.
He's served his purpose as far as many of them are concerned.
They'll continue to push their agenda with no real regard for Sanders. They'll cheer him when he promotes their views ...they'll boo him when he supports, or even mentions, Hillary.
His presence on the campaign trail will only serve to remind folks of how he was impeded.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 26, 2016, 02:18:03 pm
Yep, MBB, because politics should be all about refusing point blank to reach any consensus.  Everybody should refuse to listen to anybody else and should destroy any attempt at government which doesn't honour 100% of one's own views.  The Tea Party has shown how it should be done.  If the budget contains anything you don't like, vote against it and shut down the government.  That was Cruz's view.  He didn't sell out.  Like every dutiful Christian, he was willing to follow Samson's example and bring down the whole government unless everybody bent to his will.  If only he had more support in the Senate ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 26, 2016, 02:28:47 pm
Lods, Sanders had substantial influence over the DNC's platform.  That's how politics is done.  By proving the popularity of his policies during the campaign, he won a seat at the table.  Those Bernie Bros who want him to maintain the rage want him to emulate the suicide squad that was sent in to rescue Brian from the cross in The Life of Brian.  After fighting their way through the Roman soldiers, they then committed suicide just as they were in a position to have an influence.  Just as Bernie won some political influence, they wanted him to p1ss it away for the sake of ideological purity. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cimm1979 on July 26, 2016, 04:31:01 pm
From twitter

I hear you, Sanders supporters who plan to vote Trump. One time I asked for Coke but they only had Pepsi, so I set fire to my head.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 26, 2016, 04:43:31 pm
Hilary@ $1.45 and Trump @ $2.70....the latter has just firmed up a bit after being out to $3....
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 26, 2016, 05:01:15 pm
Do we assume the first side that bats will win because they're 200 runs ahead before the other side bats?  Conventions are a 4 day infomercial and provide a bounce.  Let's wait until the DNC convention is over and see what the polls say then.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 26, 2016, 07:39:02 pm
I thought it would be interesting to travel into the wormhole to see what was happening in the FoxNews alternative universe.  It was hilarious!  Fox & Friends First was reviewing the first day of the DNC convention hours after it had finished.  They ran a video montage which only showed the Bernie diehards protesting with a caption 'DNC Disunity'.  The 2 female co-hosts then cut away to Lanny Davis, a former Special Counsel for President Bill Clinton.  They were stunned when he had a go at them for ending the clip at the start of the convention without referencing the powerful speeches that followed.  They were confused that he would suggest that the protests died down as the day went on.  They aren't used to reality seeping into their alternate universe  >:D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on July 26, 2016, 09:29:08 pm
I thought it would be interesting to travel into the wormhole to see what was happening in the FoxNews alternative universe.  It was hilarious!  Fox & Friends First was reviewing the first day of the DNC convention hours after it had finished.  They ran a video montage which only showed the Bernie diehards protesting with a caption 'DNC Disunity'.  The 2 female co-hosts then cut away to Lanny Davis, a former Special Counsel for President Bill Clinton.  They were stunned when he had a go at them for ending the clip at the start of the convention without referencing the powerful speeches that followed.  They were confused that he would suggest that the protests died down as the day went on.  They aren't used to reality seeping into their alternate universe  >:D

From the little I saw, it was a far cry from the shemozzle that was the Republican convention.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on July 27, 2016, 01:39:49 am
Is this debacle still on going?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 27, 2016, 08:31:55 am
Is this debacle still on going?

Some of them are already working on 2020 ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on July 27, 2016, 09:10:14 am
Michelle Obama - what a speaker!  No wonder Melania Trump tried to steal her words.

All the money in the world could never buy Melania what Michelle has - class, real class.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 27, 2016, 12:25:18 pm
Bill's doing a pretty good job too (so far) ;)
Nice little personal perspective but highlighting some of her early activities and achievements.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on July 27, 2016, 12:40:42 pm
Bill's doing a pretty good job too (so far) ;)
Nice little personal perspective but highlighting some of her early activities and achievements.

Yes, I had to switch that off - started to feel quite queasy.  ::)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 27, 2016, 01:09:32 pm
Bill could talk under water for hours!  ;D

It's a necessary and effective effort to humanise Hillary.  Just the very fact that she chose to work as a children's advocate rather than taking a high-paid corporate law job is enough to negate the image the GOP tries to paint of a self-serving power-craving politician without guiding principles.

Interesting how the conservatives choose to attack her for seeking high office, trying to turn years of public service into soulless ambition.  When have men been attacked in this way?  On the contrary, ruthless campaigning and manoeuvring is actually presented as strength and manliness.  Peter Costello is mocked because he didn't have the guts to seize power from Howard after the latter walked away from a succession deal.  On the other hand, Keating is admired for taking down Hawke when he tried to hold on to power.  In Australia, we have had 3 sitting Prime Ministers overthrown by Gillard, Rudd and then Turnbull.  Is it coincidental that only Gillard seems to have been condemned for doing so?  Howard and Peacock spent a decade in opposition knifing each other.  Fact is, Trump's the one who seems to be chasing power for narcissistic reasons.  He has no actual policies other than the ridiculous wall he says he'll build.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 27, 2016, 01:20:49 pm
Are you really going down the poor Hilary route?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 27, 2016, 01:25:10 pm
(http://www.the13thround.com/phpBB2/download/file.php?id=548)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 27, 2016, 01:36:30 pm
I don't peddle the 'Poor Woman' trope.  She's plenty tough, as was Gillard.  But there's a clear difference in how ambition and career-building is viewed where women are concerned.  The Age ran a story yesterday that women don't get promotions because they don't ask for them.  But asking for them makes them ball-breaking bitches.  A bit of a catch-22 ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on July 27, 2016, 01:48:25 pm
I don't peddle the 'Poor Woman' trope.  She's plenty tough, as was Gillard.  But there's a clear difference in how ambition and career-building is viewed where women are concerned.  The Age ran a story yesterday that women don't get promotions because they don't ask for them.  But asking for them makes them ball-breaking bitches.  A bit of a catch-22 ...

Mav, don't you know it's a level playing field ?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 27, 2016, 01:53:07 pm
Ask Bernie Sanders how level it was. :))

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on July 27, 2016, 01:56:47 pm
Ask Bernie Sanders how level it was. :))

I take your point, but the fact that not every man makes it to the top is not really the issue.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on July 28, 2016, 01:35:35 am
I don't peddle the 'Poor Woman' trope.  She's plenty tough, as was Gillard.  But there's a clear difference in how ambition and career-building is viewed where women are concerned.  The Age ran a story yesterday that women don't get promotions because they don't ask for them.  But asking for them makes them ball-breaking bitches.  A bit of a catch-22 ...

What a load of crap.  Work is a boys club but not in the men vs female case like the feminist movement would have you believe.   Most men work a glass ceiling too, and seldom get places based on merit.

It's symptomatic of the world we live in.

Meanwhile the same men in the same circumstances resent women getting recognition for simply performing the same job as everyone else because they aren't a man.

In my work the only ones getting kudos are the ones who manage upwards not the ones who are necessarily most proficient.

Seems to be a similar story in other jobs I've had.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 28, 2016, 11:03:30 am
Another weird episode in the Trump reality show!

He thought it would be a good idea to say at a press conference and by way of Twitter that he hoped that Russia could hack into servers and find the 30,000 deleted emails.  It has caused outrage and given the Democrats a good line of attack.

Look, I reckon I'd just write it off as a lame attempt to mock suggestions that there is complicity between Putin and Trump while getting in another dig at the email saga.  But why would you go there?  It was reckless at the very least.  If you spot a landmine, you don't pick it up and play frisbee with it.  Trump and Putin have been busy complimenting each other and Trump's campaign manager has also managed a pro-Russian Ukranian leader.  There is also speculation that Trump's point blank refusal to release his tax returns may well be motivated by the desire to hide commercial interests in Russia.  Trump has foreshadowed picking a and choosing which members of NATO he'd stand behind and recognising Russia's annexation of Crimea.  Why would you fuel the fire?  If this is how he runs a campaign, imagine how he'd run the country ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 28, 2016, 11:09:36 am
How did the emails get leaked again?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 28, 2016, 11:55:49 am
Another weird episode in the Trump reality show!

He thought it would be a good idea to say at a press conference and by way of Twitter that he hoped that Russia could hack into servers and find the 30,000 deleted emails.  It has caused outrage and given the Democrats a good line of attack.

Look, I reckon I'd just write it off as a lame attempt to mock suggestions that there is complicity between Putin and Trump while getting in another dig at the email saga.  But why would you go there?  It was reckless at the very least.  If you spot a landmine, you don't pick it up and play frisbee with it.  Trump and Putin have been busy complimenting each other and Trump's campaign manager has also managed a pro-Russian Ukranian leader.  There is also speculation that Trump's point blank refusal to release his tax returns may well be motivated by the desire to hide commercial interests in Russia.  Trump has foreshadowed picking a and choosing which members of NATO he'd stand behind and recognising Russia's annexation of Crimea.  Why would you fuel the fire?  If this is how he runs a campaign, imagine how he'd run the country ...

There was nothing of strategic importance on the e-mails...at best the Russian's will have Hillary's shopping list.
 :D

...or was there?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: laj on July 28, 2016, 01:56:55 pm
Hilary has something huge going or her.....Trump.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 28, 2016, 04:15:09 pm
Trump does have to hope that the hackers have dumped the deleted Hillary emails on Wikileaks and the latter releases them at a critical point in the campaign.

If this happens, it would provide irrefutable proof that her server was hacked.  It would be better for him still if those emails were embarrassing in themselves.  But if they exist, why wouldn't the hackers/Wikileaks drop the bombshell during the convention?  Chances are if they don't come out prior to Hillary closing the convention, they don't exist.  In turn, this would suggest the Russians didn't hack her server.  After all, those emails are now ancient history and revealing that they were hacked would not compromise any such hacking operation.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 28, 2016, 05:15:35 pm
How come none of our blokes can deliver a speech like Obama can :(

Come to think of it none of our women can give a speech like Obama (Michelle) can....but Melania Trump, well that's a different story ;D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on July 28, 2016, 05:27:18 pm
How come none of our blokes can deliver a speech like Obama can :(

It's partly because their minders/speechwriters won't let them say anything but the latest slogans and buzzwords that have survived the focus group process.

In my experience, Septics are generally more articulate and confident with public speaking than Aussies.  They tell me that it's a product of their school system where public speaking is routine from a very early age.

Obama does have very good delivery and his message is positive - unless you're a Republican and believe he is a Muslim terrorist committed to bringing the US down.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 28, 2016, 05:55:55 pm
Trump does have to hope that the hackers have dumped the deleted Hillary emails on Wikileaks and the latter releases them at a critical point in the campaign.

If this happens, it would provide irrefutable proof that her server was hacked.  It would be better for him still if those emails were embarrassing in themselves.  But if they exist, why wouldn't the hackers/Wikileaks drop the bombshell during the convention?  Chances are if they don't come out prior to Hillary closing the convention, they don't exist. In turn, this would suggest the Russians didn't hack her server.  After all, those emails are now ancient history and revealing that they were hacked would not compromise any such hacking operation.

Assange has a problem with the Obama admin and by extension Hillary.
They're after him.
They want to lock him up until 2116
I'm sceptical that there is anything really damaging to Clinton but just for arguments sake....

What would be the best way to play it if he does have more material to dump...which he suggests he does have.
The material relating to Sanders would best be used at the convention where his supporters could disrupt.
That "wave" has largely been ridden and negotiated.

Anything specifically damaging to Hillary would best be used a week or two out from the election when there wouldn't be time to counter and recover.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 28, 2016, 11:42:09 pm
Because Trump is working off his own playbook, it isn't possible to know whether he's crazy like a fox or just crazy. 

His playbook is drawn from the entertainment world.  Obviously, he draws from the reality TV sphere.  But some have noted that he also draws from WWE Wrestling.  Who would have thought he was inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame in 2013?  How Presidential does he look in this clip:

[flash=200,200]https://youtu.be/MMKFIHRpe7I[/flash]

As some commentators have noted, his schtick during the primaries would be well known to WWE fans - hurling insults and giving derogatory nicknames, displays of arrogance, calling on the crowd to hate opponents and groups of people.  Some have even suggested that the Cruz non-endorsement speech at the RNC Convention was set up to simulate the atmosphere of a WWE match with Trump walking into the crowd as the hero stealing the limelight.  I think it was just a rookie mistake by Trump, but who knows?

I've also been wondering whether he has been using Tom Clancy as his guide to international politics.  In Debt of Honour and Executive Orders, Clancy pretty much sidelined NATO and the US's traditional allies and instead had Russia helping the US to defeat Muslim and Asian foes.  Jack Ryan has a bromance with a Russian KGB type in the Kremlin that might be the equal of the Trump/Putin bromance.

So strong is the bromance that Stephen Colbert had an unusual answer when asked what would be the one question he'd ask Trump if he came on his show:

[flash=200,200]https://youtu.be/Rxf8-E2v9og[/flash]
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 29, 2016, 07:51:15 am
Assange has a problem with the Obama admin and by extension Hillary.
They're after him.
They want to lock him up until 2116
I'm sceptical that there is anything really damaging to Clinton but just for arguments sake....

What would be the best way to play it if he does have more material to dump...which he suggests he does have.
The material relating to Sanders would best be used at the convention where his supporters could disrupt.
That "wave" has largely been ridden and negotiated.

Anything specifically damaging to Hillary would best be used a week or two out from the election when there wouldn't be time to counter and recover.

It will be about the Clinton Foundation and when they come out Hilary is toast.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on July 29, 2016, 07:55:29 am
Hilary has something huge going or her.....Trump.

unfortunately the reverse could also be true.  :(
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on July 29, 2016, 08:27:15 am
unfortunately the reverse could also be true.  :(

Sad but true, Fluffy One. As with our choice this year the Yanks will be asking themselves at the polls, 'now which is the lesser of the 2 evils?'
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 29, 2016, 08:51:21 am
http://nypost.com/2016/07/25/dems-warn-not-to-underestimate-trumps-potential-to-win/

Quote
Cocky Democrats gathering in Philadelphia this week are proclaiming that Hillary Clinton will easily defeat Donald Trump in November — but one of their own best-known strategists is ringing the warning bell.

“I think he can win, and I’m not daffy,’’ veteran Democratic consultant Hank Sheinkopf, who has worked for dozens of top Democrats including former President Bill Clinton and Gov. Cuomo, told The Post.

“Democrats are doing what they always do, telling themselves a story, and the story is that Donald Trump can’t win, and that’s just not true,’’ Shein­kopf said.

“What has been happening, and the Democrats haven’t been paying enough attention to this, is that the Republican Party of Donald Trump has become the ‘action party’ in the country and the Democratic Party of Hillary Clinton and President Obama has become the ‘passive party.’ ”

“Trump is creating an extraordinary combination of right and left in one place. He’s taking on the elites in both parties, giving all those having some grievances a place to go, and how the Democrats get out of that, I don’t know,’’ he said.

Sheinkopf praised Trump’s “brilliant’’ strategy at the end of the Republican convention of delivering a “populist message that appealed to all those pissed-off average guys,’’ while reaching out to gays and lesbians — whom he promised, to cheers, to defend against attacks — in a move that “reduced the fear of the religious right that many non-Republicans have.”

“The Democrats have convinced themselves that Trump can’t win, but I don’t think they fully realize what’s happening out there”

“The gay thing was very important in terms of adding a libertarian streak to the Republicans’ appeal, basically saying, ‘I don’t care who you are — we’ve got to do this for America. I work for you,’ ’’ said Sheinkopf.

A second prominent Democrat who has worked closely with Mrs. Clinton and has strong ties to Cuomo, other top state Democrats, and to Trump himself, said he, too, is convinced that many Democrats misjudge the Trump threat.

“The Democrats have convinced themselves that Trump can’t win, but I don’t think they fully realize what’s happening out there,’’ he told The Post.

“Donald Trump is an extraordinary person who is difficult to define and therefore difficult to figure out how to deal with,” he said.

“No one, for instance, expected him to have that LGBT reference in his speech, and that’s clearly a way to redefine the Republican Party in a way that will make it appealing to some Democrats,’’ he said.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2016, 09:02:04 am
The Democrats themselves are keen to negate the sense that Clinton will inevitably win over an imploding Trump.  With optional voting, the key to ensuring victory is to ensure voters turn out.  Clinton can easily lose if her voters are complacent and don't bother voting.  Expect to see many stories coming from the Dems which are designed to eliminate complacency.  But it's hard to take seriously that one line in Trump's acceptance speech will make LGBTI voters feel safe with Trump given that he selected as a running mate a homophobe who signed into law the right to discriminate.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 29, 2016, 09:07:07 am
Here's why Trump has the job ahead of him
270 electoral college votes needed to win.

http://www.270towin.com/polling-maps/clinton-trump-electoral-map
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Bear on July 29, 2016, 09:17:27 am
How come none of our blokes can deliver a speech like Obama can :(

Come to think of it none of our women can give a speech like Obama (Michelle) can....but Melania Trump, well that's a different story ;D


Have you heard a better orator than Obama in your lifetime? I haven't.  In general i think the yanks tend to have that "preacher" style about them, and when Obama nails it, he soars. We won't see another one like him for a while.

Unfortunately when our lot are giving set pieces they sound like the boring lawyers/party hacks/union officials that they all are. They tend to be at their best in the cut and thrust of question time, which is something the president doesn't have to face.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on July 29, 2016, 09:26:35 am
Have you heard a better orator than Obama in your lifetime? I haven't.  In general i think the yanks tend to have that "preacher" style about them, and when Obama nails it, he soars. We won't see another one like him for a while.

Unfortunately when our lot are giving set pieces they sound like the boring lawyers/party hacks/union officials that they all are. They tend to be at their best in the cut and thrust of question time, which is something the president doesn't have to face.

Plenty of style alright but substance? We'll see I guess.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2016, 09:32:56 am
No doubt the Yanks are better at the preacher-style of uplifting and florid oratory.  But I suspect that Australian audiences don't warm to it.  You can imagine that attempts to duplicate this style in Australian politics would be met with blunt assessments that the speaker was being a wanker.

The best orators in Australian politics are much less flowery and usually deploy a brutal wit.  Gough Whitlam, Paul Keating and Peter Costello were all brutally effective.  In particular, Keating was capable of considerable artistry, for instance one occasion where he described a visit to a house where "clocks were dripping off the walls".  But their best work was more brutal than artful.  Hawke was able to inject considerable emotion into his oratory but he won the right to do so only because he had qualified as a down-to-earth Aussie bloke by that stage.   And sometimes the overblown rhetoric, for example fixing a year by which no child would live in poverty, would come back to haunt him.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on July 29, 2016, 09:37:12 am
No doubt the Yanks are better at the preacher-style of uplifting and florid oratory.  But I suspect that Australian audiences don't warm to it.  You can imagine that attempts to duplicate this style in Australian politics would be met with blunt assessments that the speaker was being a wanker.

Got it in one! Words are maybe just about tolerated but if there's no subsequent delivery on them then the flak is merciless, and rightly so IMO.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 29, 2016, 09:43:15 am
No doubt the Yanks are better at the preacher-style of uplifting and florid oratory.  But I suspect that Australian audiences don't warm to it.  You can imagine that attempts to duplicate this style in Australian politics would be met with blunt assessments that the speaker was being a wanker.

Possibly
Yet... It impresses us when we hear it.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that our leaders are just figureheads and extensions of parties...whereas a President is much more an individual.
Our system means that it's difficult to get a quality candidate to come from "out of the blue" without years of battling through the party structure.
That means that real quality or impressive people aren't always drawn to the job of country leader.
Hawke is probably the closest we've had to someone who was a high profile figure, who also had the substance and political skills, progressing swiftly to the leadership.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 29, 2016, 10:04:23 am
Not sure how the democrat elites can bash trump about his border wall to stop illegal immigrants when they have put up an 8 foot, 4 mile fence around their convention to protect themselves.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on July 29, 2016, 10:50:06 am
Not sure how the democrat elites can bash trump about his border wall to stop illegal immigrants when they have put up an 8 foot, 4 mile fence around their convention to protect themselves.

The planned extreme security measures for the Republican Convention were overturned as unconstitutional by a federal judge:

Quote
CLEVELAND—A federal judge on Thursday struck down the city of Cleveland’s rules limiting protests during next month’s Republican National Convention, finding the city’s strict security regulations violated the U.S. Constitution.

U.S. District Judge James Gwin ruled the city’s establishment of a large zone around the July convention site within which protesters’ ability to demonstrate would be strictly limited contravened the Constitution’s guarantees of the freedom of speech and assembly.

Given Trump's promotion of violence to his opponents and the prevalence of gun nuts, the Democratic Convention's security measures seem quite reasonable, particularly with the convention's strong backing for gun control . . . and their measures apparently don't contravene the constitution.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on July 29, 2016, 11:00:13 am
but the democrats should feel secure, they live in the greatest country in the world! Right? :))

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2016, 11:30:04 am
So the choices are no security of any kind or ridiculously over the top measures?  Pity there can't be a moderate response instead ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2016, 11:40:43 am
Assange has a problem with the Obama admin and by extension Hillary.
They're after him.
They want to lock him up until 2116
I'm sceptical that there is anything really damaging to Clinton but just for arguments sake....

What would be the best way to play it if he does have more material to dump...which he suggests he does have.
The material relating to Sanders would best be used at the convention where his supporters could disrupt.
That "wave" has largely been ridden and negotiated.

Anything specifically damaging to Hillary would best be used a week or two out from the election when there wouldn't be time to counter and recover.

On this topic: But What If Trump Is Right About Russia Having Clinton's Email? (http://m.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-emails_us_5799188be4b01180b5317d08?section=), Huffington Post.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on July 29, 2016, 12:30:32 pm
What about Trump encouraging a foreign "enemy" power to hack Clinton's/Democrats' emails?

You may be able to get away with that in the WWF but not as an aspiring president of the USA.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2016, 01:15:57 pm
Nice zinger from Hillary after cataloguing things he has made overseas:
Quote
Mr Trump talks about making America great again.  How about starting by making things in America again.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2016, 01:35:37 pm
And that's finally the end of 8 days of conventioneering.  Now we have to wait to see who gets a bump in the polls. 

No doubt the DNC convention was far more coherent and well stage-managed.  It had a far more impressive list of speakers (if only we still had the vomit emoji which would be the best way of summing up Scott Baio).  But will the shambolic RNC convention and fear-mongering appeal to those who are distrustful of slick politicians and value "telling it like it is"?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2016, 02:18:03 pm
Interesting point from some pundits.  Hillary directly attacked Trump's authoritarian declaration that "only I can fix it".  She stressed that the founding fathers made sure that no one person could hold all the power in the US - that they got rid of one ruler in King George and didn't need another.  She emphasised that there were so many people who had to work together to improve the US, from frontline troops to police to teachers to nurses and doctors, to entrepreneurs who build businesses; that all Americans had to work together.

The pundits point out that Trump's attitude to presidential power is the opposite of that of conservative GOP figures.  One pointed out that Paul Ryan, the GOP House leader, would say that neither the President nor the Federal Government should be the saviour, that the States should be left to fashion their own legislative solutions and churches and families should be left to decide moral issues.  Libertarians would also shrink from an authoritarian who promises to wield presidential power to refashion society.  They want to hear promises about small government rather than an all-powerful President.

No doubt he appeals to those who pine for an authoritarian leader.  But is that enough?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 29, 2016, 02:27:13 pm
What about Trump encouraging a foreign "enemy" power to hack Clinton's/Democrats' emails?

You may be able to get away with that in the WWF but not as an aspiring president of the USA.

He's Donald Trump...He's got away with it. ;)
It will hardly impact.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 29, 2016, 02:39:25 pm
Not so sure about that.  I'd imagine that hatred and suspicion of Russia is hardwired into American minds.  Any suggestion that Trump would play footsie with Putin would be electoral poison, especially as he is hoping to carry the conservative vote.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on July 29, 2016, 02:50:01 pm
Not so sure about that.  I'd imagine that hatred and suspicion of Russia is hardwired into American minds.  Any suggestion that Trump would play footsie with Putin would be electoral poison, especially as he is hoping to carry the conservative vote.

He's a Teflon man.
None of his comments stick to him.
If it's a news item a week from now we may consider it to have had an impact but I suspect it will have been overtaken by other issues.

Democrats want the e-mail story to go away.
By attacking Trump on his comments it keeps them in play.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 29, 2016, 09:40:41 pm
He's a Teflon man.
None of his comments stick to him.
If it's a news item a week from now we may consider it to have had an impact but I suspect it will have been overtaken by other issues.

Democrats want the e-mail story to go away.
By attacking Trump on his comments it keeps them in play.

The way I see it Trump doesnt have swinging voters...doesnt matter what he says or does from here on in the same people will vote for him regardless..its Clinton's vote that will either rise or fall
depending on what she says or does....I reckon too every time there is a terrorist attack or racial disturbance in the USA that Trumps vote goes up...
Hilary would be better saying as little as possible and riding out her advantage in the polls to voting day...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on July 30, 2016, 01:44:22 am
Let's not forget that there are other issues that may well emerge.  One is the Zika virus.  Not only has the link to microcephaly been made but also the harm it causes isn't limited to that condition.  It has now been established that it can be passed by sex with an infected person whether male or female and doctors have advised that the infectious period has been raised to 2 months.

The US has had a fair number of cases but up til recently they were all cases contracted while the infected person was travelling overseas or from sexual contact with such a traveller.  Florida has now notified 4 cases in which the infection appears to have been spread by mosquito bites in Florida.  That is a major development.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/florida-confirms-first-locally-transmitted-zika_us_579b6319e4b08a8e8b5daa25?section= (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/florida-confirms-first-locally-transmitted-zika_us_579b6319e4b08a8e8b5daa25?section=)

Even worse, the experts believe that the virus is no longer confined to a tropical species of mosquito which has limited penetration into the US.  It now looks as though the virus has jumped to the most common species of mosquito in California and others: http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/health-and-medicine/healthy-choices/article92034182.html (http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/health-and-medicine/healthy-choices/article92034182.html).  This is a virus which seems to keep upping its game.

This plays into the Dems' wheelhouse.  Obama tried to obtain $1.9b to fund efforts to deal with the possibility of an epidemic but the Republicans firstly would only consider authorising $1.1b in funding and even then they tried to attach riders to it so that it would divert funding from Obamacare and Planned Parenthood while overturning a ban o the flying of the Confederate flags in military cemeteries .  It went nowhere.  http://time.com/4406114/zika-funding-bill-fails-as-congress-is-unable-to-reach-compromise/ (http://time.com/4406114/zika-funding-bill-fails-as-congress-is-unable-to-reach-compromise/)

Raising issues of national healthcare, Planned Parenthood's role in giving family planning advice to pregnant women who might consider abortions of affected foetuses and issues of science generally, this would give Clinton a major advantage.  And the inaction of the Republican Congress would hurt it in the congressional elections too.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 01, 2016, 08:16:53 am
Act One of 'Zika Hits the USA' has begun (http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/29/opinions/zika-hits-usa-garrett/), CNN, 29/7/16.

Quote
Zika is here, in the USA. Fasten your seat belts because we're in for a bumpy ride.

Local mosquitoes in the Miami area are carrying the Zika virus, and have infected at least four Floridians. In announcing this alarming news during a press conference Friday morning, Gov. Rick Scott, a Republican, added a sharp warning: "This is not just a Florida issue. It's a national issue -- we just happen to be at the forefront."

Now all the falderal typical of American outbreaks will commence: Political posturing, hysteria versus naysaying, conspiracy theories, demands for safety and care and a daily mounting toll of identified cases. And this year the hoopla will unfold against the background of one of the ugliest, most deeply divided election years in modern history.
...
Scott no doubt saw the threat coming: every health expert knew swampy, mosquito-infested Florida would get hit with Zika first. Like some dreadful slow-motion horror movie Scott and scientists at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have for months watched the Zika crisis unfold across Latin America, the Caribbean, Puerto Rico -- all the while expressing exasperation over the lack of congressional approval for federal funds to augment the state's $26 million emergency fund.

Scott said he found Washington's partisan disputes over Zika funding "profoundly disappointing," and his consternation only increased when Congress closed for summer recess, having reached no Zika funding agreement, thereby leaving states to muddle through the nation's peak mosquito season without hope of significant federal support until well after Labor Day.
...
On Friday the CDC forecast that more than 10,000 pregnancies this year in Puerto Rico could be affected by Zika infections -- ten thousand. Whether you are inclined to support a right to life position or Planned Parenthood the prospect of idly bearing witness to thousands of pregnancies that result in miscarriages or birth defects should enrage.
...
But it isn't just Florida. It would be a grave mistake to imagine that Zika will confine itself to the seaside villas of Miami or the suburbs of Broward County. Look out, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, the Carolinas, and, yes, the District of Columbia. The pressure Floridians are now applying in pursuit of federal support will swiftly magnify, as counties from Cameron, Texas, to Monmouth, New Jersey, join the din, demanding help from Washington.

Yes, we all know Washington is dysfunctional these days, but this isn't about arguing and refusing to compromise about highway construction -- this is about the nation's babies.

So fasten your seat belts, America -- the curtain is just now raising, and Act One of "Zika Hits the USA" has begun. And hecklers up in the cheap seats will be shouting, "Hey Congress, we told you so!"

Who could have seen this coming? :P

The experts say that a quarter of Puerto Ricans will have been infected by the end of the year.  Puerto Rico is a territory of the US and even votes in presidential primaries. 

The position of Governor Scott is interesting.  He is the National Chairman of the Trump Super PAC.  Though he demands federal help, he turned down a request made by the CDC to send in teams to help with contact tracing and testing.  If I were the Governor, I'd accept any help offered, particularly when the CDC has experts who've been working on the Zika Virus for months.  From a public health standpoint, the CDC should be involved as mosquitos and viruses don't respect State boundaries.  I hope Governor Scott didn't refuse CDC assistance for political reasons and it has to be said that Florida has previously performed well in combatting other mosquito-borne diseases.

It'll be interesting to hear what the anti-science guy, Trump, will say about the Zika Virus.  What conspiracy theory will he unleash?  What will be his sage advice to devastated pregnant women?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on August 01, 2016, 08:27:45 am
https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/zika-freakout-the-hoax-and-the-covert-op-continue/ (https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/zika-freakout-the-hoax-and-the-covert-op-continue/)

One should remain highly suspicious about this latest 'pandemic' imo.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on August 01, 2016, 08:48:14 am
Act One of 'Zika Hits the USA' has begun (http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/29/opinions/zika-hits-usa-garrett/), CNN, 29/7/16.
It'll be interesting to hear what the anti-science guy, Trump, will say about the Zika Virus.  What conspiracy theory will he unleash?  What will be his sage advice to devastated pregnant women?


What the Republicans may have done in the past with regard to funding wont be relevant in the Presidential race.
What they've done with any issue wont be relevant.....because Trump has managed to create a division between himself and the party that enables him to dissociate himself from decisions of the past.

Where this may impact will be in the House and Senate elections

The winner of the Presidential race will be the one who suffers least damage in the war of attrition to come.


Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 01, 2016, 10:29:34 am
Lods, what you say makes a lot of sense but Flyboy's post just before yours shows how Trump may well make a mess of this issue.

Remember that the CNN article foreshadowed conspiracy theories erupting over the Zika virus?  As if on cue, Flyboy posted a conspiracy theory from a charter member of the tin-foil-hat brigade.  The author has left a very small digital footprint for someone with the impressive biography he provides for himself.  Was he really nominated for a Pullitzer Prize (i.e. was he one of the 3 entrants selected by the jury or was he simply entered by a friend on payment of the $50 entry fee)?  Anyway, how about this statement taken from the linked article:
Quote
This is my second article on the Zika-virus scam (article archive here). I’ve been to these rodeos before: HIV, West Nile, Swine Flu, SARS, Ebola. In each case, a virus is blamed for illness and death that actually arises from other causes.
Hands up those who think that those viruses were improperly blamed for those diseases?  THIS BLOG (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/07/23/depopulation-by-vaccines/) looked into him and revealed he's a "germ theory denialist", an anti-vaxxer on steroids as most anti-vaxxers don't deny that viruses cause diseases but instead claim treatments and vaccinations cause more harm than good.  He believes that this conspiracy by the medical cartel is a cover for depopulation.

Lods, you're right that this won't hurt Trump if he plays his cards right.  But he has never met a conspiracy theory that he didn't like.  He went big with the 'birther' conspiracy theory, saying that Obama had to prove he wan't born in a Muslim country and that he wasn't a secret Muslim who was intent on destroying America.  Lately, he has jumped aboard the 'Ted Cruz's father conspired with Lee Harvey Oswald to kill JFK' bandwagon.  If the Zika virus does spread, it will be an obvious and proper issue to bring up in the Presidential Debates.  If he is asked whether the Zika virus is a health issue and what will he do about it, how will he respond?  I'm sure everyone will hold their breath as he prepares his answer.  Will he side with the anti-vaxxers or will he say that it's an issue and he'll kill all the mosquitos, that he's the biggest enemy of mosquitos everywhere?  If he accepts that the Zika virus causes birth defects, what will he say when asked whether infected expectant mothers should be able to abort? 

The only way he'll be able to duck the issue is to avoid interviews and debates.  And that's very possible.  After all, the evil media can't be trusted.  Ban them all!

PS: We also have to remember that Florida is a State that is up for grabs and which might swing the election, as it did in 2000 for George Dubya.  As Florida is ground zero when it comes to the Zika virus, mocking concerns over it might not be the smartest move.  I'm sure that Trump's campaign team is hoping that Governor Scott can contain the virus and it dies as an issue.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on August 01, 2016, 11:00:45 am
Most Americans don't think guns kill people so do you think they're worried about some little virus?

Hilary's camp were the ones who started the Obama birth certificate thing when she went up against him 2008.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 01, 2016, 11:32:05 am
Do you remember the panic in the US over Ebola?  Governor Chris Christie ordered that a nurse returning from Africa be held in isolation and she was held for 3 days.  In the US, guns are seen as the solution, not the problem.  Viruses are only championed by nutters like the Westboro Baptist Church which believes they are God's means of wiping out sinners.  You can defend against a bad man with a gun as long as you or some other good guy is carrying an M-16 but those damn mossies are hard to take down unless you deploy neutron bombs.  Not even a 20 foot wall would save the nation. 

Even that NRA gun nut Tom Clancy premised 'Executive Orders' on an attack by Iran using weaponised Ebola intended to cripple the US.  Concurrent attacks by Iranian terrorists using M-16s on President Jack Ryan's daughter at her daycare centre were brushed off with President Ryan aghast at suggestions the attack Could be used to justify gun control

Films and books have certainly conditioned the public to fear epidemics.  Google 'films about viral outbreaks' and you'll come up with at least 73, with a nice little sub-category dealing with zombie-causing outbreaks as The Walking Dead fans would well know. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 01, 2016, 12:03:17 pm
And the fun keeps on coming: Donald Trump digs a hole for himself with attacks on Muslim hero's parents, (http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/donald-trump-digs-a-hole-for-himself-with-attacks-on-muslim-heros-parents-20160801-gqi1fw.html) The Age, 1/8/16.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on August 01, 2016, 12:41:46 pm
Your certitude never ceases to a amaze me Mav.   C:-)  C:-)

Plenty out there who reckon the zika thing is a beat up..... bury your head.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 01, 2016, 12:51:51 pm
Then surely you can point to some scientific support for that belief.  After all, the causes and effects of the Zika virus are medical and scientific issues rather than a matter of political or religious belief, aren't they?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on August 01, 2016, 12:55:28 pm
And the fun keeps on coming: Donald Trump digs a hole for himself with attacks on Muslim hero's parents, (http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/donald-trump-digs-a-hole-for-himself-with-attacks-on-muslim-heros-parents-20160801-gqi1fw.html) The Age, 1/8/16.

Here's the thing though mav...even conservative commentators savage him over such things....but still he rolls on.
There doesn't seem to be any cumulative negative effect.
It's got me beat. :-\
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 01, 2016, 01:01:08 pm
Yep.  It's impossible for any single person to figure out the impact of these incidents, all the moreso for non-Americans like us.  If he wins the election, then we would have to admit the possibility that this firefight gave him the chance to double down on anti-Muslim rhetoric and the condemnation by the press and GOP figures worked to his advantage.  But I can say that his behaviour disgusts me.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on August 01, 2016, 01:08:50 pm
But I can say that his behaviour disgusts me.

That may be the key to understanding what's actually going on.
We've got to try and separate our own personal views about his antics and look at it from an 'impartial' distance.
That's what I've tried to do but it still has me stumped as to why he's even in with a chance.

In the end I think the electoral system and the uphill task he faces to win enough significant states will bring him undone but the American population is a wide and varied entity and this is an election with candidates unlike any other.
There's just too many variables.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 01, 2016, 01:15:31 pm
No doubt.  That's why I don't bother with sweeping claims that Trump can't win - how could I possibly know?  Even the current polling is unreliable.  Political pundits regard Labor Day (the 1st Monday in September) as the time when polling becomes a reasonably reliable predictor of what will happen 2 months later.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 01, 2016, 03:34:03 pm
Interesting psychological assessment of why Clinton governs well but doesn't excite progressives on the campaign trail - The science behind Hillary Clinton’s problems with trust, (http://www.salon.com/2016/07/31/the_science_behind_hillary_clintons_problems_with_trust_partner/) Salon, 1/8/16.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 01, 2016, 04:11:23 pm
And The Simpsons has tried to imagine how Clinton and Trump would take the 3am national security call:

[flash=200,200]https://youtu.be/tLSy8Tl2bjs[/flash]
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on August 01, 2016, 08:15:37 pm
Probably one of the better perspectives re the imminent choice facing America. Just ignore the 'we're the greatest nation on Earth stuff.'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7DOYVEkQjA

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 01, 2016, 11:06:04 pm
Yep, his speech impressed Trump so much that he said he wants to hit the little guy.  But Rudy Guliani, only an inch taller, is a huuuuge guy in Trump's mind.

Changing the topic again, we've been assuming that ISIS attacks will play into Trump's hands.  But it looks like ISIS may well end up being a winning issue for Hillary: Get Ready for Obama’s ‘October Surprise’ in Iraq: If Iraqi and Kurdish troops—with stepped-up U.S. support—retake Mosul as planned, it could be a big boost for Hillary (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/08/iraq-offensive-2016-mosul-islamic-state-isis-isil-obama-foreign-policy-kurdish-214121), Politico, 1/10/16.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 02, 2016, 10:55:36 am
Hillary is lucky she's up against Trump who lies every day.  But Hillary, knowing she has a problem with trust, continues to make unforced errors.  She is receiving poor reviews over an interview she gave to FoxNews.  When asked by Chris Wallace about the emails, she said that Comey had said that she was telling the truth over the emails.  WTF?  When I saw that clip, I was stunned.  Everyone knows his statement and subsequent testimony weren't a glowing endorsement of her.  Why didn't she just say that Comey's entitled to his view but she was telling the truth as she believed it to be at the time?  Why put words in Comey's mouth when that can be clearly disproved? 

Oh boy.  She's lucky that Trump is obsessed with his battle with the Khans at the moment. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on August 02, 2016, 11:28:33 am
An Australian politician who made as many gaffes as Trump, was continually caught out for embellishing the truth and who engaged in wars of words with members of the public would have a very short career.

It's water of a duck's back for Trump though  ::)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on August 02, 2016, 11:34:03 am
An Australian politician who made as many gaffes as Trump, was continually caught out for embellishing the truth and who engaged in wars of words with members of the public would have a very short career.

It's water of a duck's back for Trump though  ::)

He's just giving the Yanks what they expect, and quite possibly what they want. Given enough time, for some people familiarity breeds fondness, oddly enough.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on August 03, 2016, 07:17:45 am
Trump reckons Hillary is the Devil. :D

I just get the feeling some of these things are starting to bite (Khans , Putin) and he's starting to crack....But I've thought that before. ::)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 03, 2016, 12:17:52 pm
The attack on Khan might finally have been too much.  Previous outrageous attacks have been against politicians and media figures and that means the public's sympathy with the victims would be limited.  But Khizr Khan isn't a public figure at all.  He seems to have reacted simply because Trump's attack on Muslims was an indirect attack on his deceased son.  Rather than being a stirrer artfully poking the bear, he has demonstrated an endearingly naïve civility.  I doubt he foresaw or desired the crapstorm that would come his way.

Trump's responses have been disgusting enough but his campaign staff and surrogates have taken it even further.  So far, Trump has insinuated that Mrs Khan was forced to remain silent on stage because of repressive Islam and that Mr Khan was motivated by a desire to prevent Trump stopping Radical Islamic TerroristsTM entering the US.  Mr Khan has been declared as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood without any basis and claims have been made that his son was actually a Radical Islamic TerroristTM who was blown up before he could execute his attack.  Mr Khan has also been accused of trying to implement Sharia law in the US.  Others used a small section in Mr Khan's legal firm's online legal writings that dealt with immigration by businessmen to allege that he's worried about his own pocket.  The fact that this site was taken down was used to show he had something to hide.  A bemused Mr Khan called on Trump and his surrogates to show empathy and said that he has no time for Sharia law which in his view is merely a hotch-pot of British and French laws mixed in with local religious beliefs.  He also noted that he'd never had any clients in immigration matters as rich businessmen seeking to immigrate go to big firms and the website was only taken down as its host complained that it was being buried by hatemail and they advised that it should be taken down until things quieten down. 

The strangest nonsense to come out of Trump's camp is that Capt. Khan died as a result of the ridiculous rules of engagement imposed by Clinton and Obama.  It didn't worry them that Capt. Khan died in 2004/5, well before Obama came to power.

Outside of Trump's base, how will voters react to Trump's attempts to orchestrate a hate campaign against a Gold Star family?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on August 03, 2016, 12:23:05 pm
Outside of Trump's base, how will voters react to Trump's attempts to orchestrate a hate campaign against a Gold Star family?

When Bill O'Reilly tells you that you may have gone too far..chances are you've walked off a cliff ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on August 03, 2016, 12:52:33 pm
Trump doesn't want the job, he's going to profit significantly from all this and money is all he cares about.

He'll make more money in the next term from a near miss than he ever could from a clear win, and he knows it!

Money Monster was a fictional story that sits uncomfortably close to the truth in how stocks are manipulated to rise and fall. Trump's Money Monster isn't a platinum mine, it's a corrupt US political system and the mindless masses led by the media!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 03, 2016, 04:33:38 pm
Trump's spokeswoman blaming Obama and Clinton for killing Capt. Khan by changing their rules of engagement while Bush was President  ::)

“It was under Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton that changed the rules of engagement that probably cost his life.”

[flash=200,200]https://youtu.be/VAtxCRfU1g0[/flash]
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on August 04, 2016, 07:23:20 am
If we have them why can't we use them?

"Three times he asked about the use of nuclear weapons... at one point he asked 'if we have them, why can't we use them'," Mr Scarborough said on MSNBC's Morning Joe on Wednesday.

A spokeswoman later the denied the claim, but it comes after Mr Trump asked MSNBC's Chris Matthews in March "why are we making them" if we never plan on using nuclear weapons, and said he wouldn't rule out using nukes in the Middle East - or, for that matter, in Europe. The Washington Post's fact-checking team documented several other times Mr Trump refused to rule out the use of nuclear weapons.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 04, 2016, 09:57:42 am
In footy parlance, it's great to be unpredictable to opponents but you've got to be predictable to your team mates.  Paul Mannafort is well-placed to run messages between Trump and Putin but everyone else will be nervous.  And nervous nations sometimes jump at shadows.

I think we've all seen how Trump will react to real or perceived slights from overseas.  He will escalate and refuse to back down.  Just as his current campaign team are incapable of making Trump pull his horns in, his diplomats will be reduced to mere spectators.  If I were serving on a US aircraft carrier at the moment, I'd be taking as much leave as I could get in case Trump wins.  Trump will be sending the carriers all over the place like pinballs.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 04, 2016, 10:40:33 am
You know Trump's doing well when there's speculation about him withdrawing (or much less likely being pushed out) and the Republican National Committee replacing him.  Obviously, this is pretty unlikely.  But the 168 committee members would then vote armed with the number of votes that their states had delegates.  The RNC wouldn't be limited to candidates who ran in the primaries.  Cruz and Ryan would be considered in this scenario.  One practical problem is that various states have time limits for nominating candidates.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on August 04, 2016, 10:59:51 am
Trump needs to find some more emails.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 04, 2016, 12:03:54 pm
Surely Paul Manafort made that a part of the deal that saw Trump look favourably on Russia's annexation of Crimea?  What's the point if Manafort's pro-Russian clients can't get that done?

But even if Trump gets help from the Russians, it won't be any use if Trump keeps on making himself a threat to security.  Who needs to hack emails to obtain classified material when Trump blurts out secrets in public?

Trump Boasts About Watching 'Top Secret' Iran Video Immediately After Becoming Eligible To Receive Classified Briefings (http://m.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/donald-trump-iran-intelligence-briefing_us_57a26249e4b04414d1f370b9), HuffPost.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 04, 2016, 03:42:21 pm
Rubio: Trump ‘hopefully’ will pay attention to Zika (http://www.politico.com/states/florida/story/2016/08/rubio-hopefully-trump-will-pay-attention-to-zika-104465), Politico, 3/8/16.

Quote
Sen. Marco Rubio called on both political parties in Washington to do more to fight the Zika virus, but he was almost mum Wednesday when asked about why his party’s presidential nominee has essentially said nothing about the disease now that it’s spreading in Miami and throughout Florida.

“I’m not a spokesperson for their campaign and so I’m not going to speak on their behalf,” Rubio said when asked by POLITICO about Trump’s relative silence on the spread of Zika. “I can talk to you about where I stand and what I’m saying about it. I think this is a big issue for anyone who seeks public office.”

When questioned more about why he wouldn’t discuss Trump’s position on Zika, Rubio noted he hadn’t either mentioned the Democratic Party’s presidential nominee, Hillary Clinton. But Clinton since March made it a priority issue and her running mate, Virginia Sen. Tim Kaine, took the time at a campaign stop in Daytona Beach to call out Trump for not talking about the disease.

"If you look at what Donald Trump has said about Zika, it's like, crickets," Kaine said, according to The Miami Herald. Just a day before the Centers for Disease Control issued a first-ever travel advisory warning pregnant women about traveling to Miami. The Zika virus can cause microcephaly in newborns.

Hope Hicks, Trump’s spokeswoman, could not be reached. Juan Fiol, the Trump campaign’s vice chairman in Miami-Dade County, where Rubio lives, recently bashed Clinton for discussing the issue and said her campaign was “sophomoric” for “taking on such an insignificant issue,” according to The Boston Globe, which also couldn’t reach Hicks.

“We have bigger mosquitoes to squash than Zika — like ISIS, the national debt, Iraq, and Afghanistan,” Fiol told the Boston Globe. “We have a wall to build to keep the illegals out. We have so many other issues that are more important than this.”
As I thought, Trump is incapable of handling the Zika issue with any common sense.  He needs Florida and Florida is concerned.  Therefore, he should be concerned too, whatever he might think of the issue.  The fact that Rubio thinks it's a major issue in his Senate re-election campaign should be a bit of a hint.  He doesn't say about terror that Americans have much less chance of being killed by a car or a gun in the hands of a non-terrorist.  Actual statistics don't stand a chance when confronting fear.  That's something he should well know given he ran an entire convention on the basis of scare-mongering. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on August 05, 2016, 08:12:09 pm
Rubio: Trump ‘hopefully’ will pay attention to Zika (http://www.politico.com/states/florida/story/2016/08/rubio-hopefully-trump-will-pay-attention-to-zika-104465), Politico, 3/8/16.
As I thought, Trump is incapable of handling the Zika issue with any common sense.  He needs Florida and Florida is concerned.

Didn't he address the Zika issue just a few days ago?

"Three times he asked about the use of nuclear weapons... at one point he asked 'if we have them, why can't we use them'," Mr Scarborough said on MSNBC's Morning Joe on Wednesday.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on August 10, 2016, 10:08:43 am
http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37029170

Quote
“Hillary wants to abolish, essentially abolish the Second Amendment,” he said, referring to the piece of legislation that gun rights activists claim gives them the right to bear weapons. “If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. Although the second amendment people, maybe there is.

Surely that's enough.
 ::)

Watching the Republican Party exact it's revenge on Trump supporters as they try to reclaim their party after this farce finishes is going to be fascinating.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 10, 2016, 10:57:43 am
http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37029170

Surely that's enough.
 ::)

Watching the Republican Party exact it's revenge on Trump supporters as they try to reclaim their party after this farce finishes is going to be fascinating.

Didnt 50 senior republicans sign some statement say they will vote for Hilary just to stop Trump taking over their party and changing its values to his.....reckon that tells you plenty considering how much repubs hate Hilary..

Hilary will do a Bradbury and just stay on her feet long enough to cross the finish line...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 10, 2016, 10:59:41 am
Of course, Trump dismisses criticism as he says he just meant that the "2nd amendment people" could stop her by voting for him.  This, he says, is the only possible interpretation.  Hmmmm ...

As you can see from the text, he sets up a hypothetical where Clinton has won the election and as POTUS she is in a position to pick judges hostile to gun rights.  He says nobody can stop that at that point save the 2nd amendment people.  At that point, only the new Senate or political assassination (of POTUS or the nominated Judges) can stop those new Judges ruling on the 2nd amendment. 

Of course, just because assassination is the implication of the comment doesn't mean he intended to imply this.  But the moment any reasonable person realises that they misspoke in such a sensitive area, an apology and clarification is clearly warranted.  But Trump doubles down and says there's nothing wrong with what he said.

I don't accept his assertion that he didn't mean assassination.  It's a well-worn tactic he uses.  He loves floating things before walking away from them.  He uses the childish technique of saying things like, "I'm not going to say she's ugly - I'm not going to do that".  He also uses the "many people are saying" formulation to float slander and conspiracy theories.  At the RNC, Trump had speakers calling for Hillary to be locked up and one of Trump's policy advisors called for her to be executed by a firing squad.  Against this inflammatory background, his comments were very loaded.  It is a clear dog-whistle.

On the other hand, Hillary has now had an unforced error of her own.  The father of the Orlando shooter attended a rally she was giving and actually sat behind her so that he was visible in the TV shots.  What terrible "optics" as Americans like to say.  He claimed he was invited which is denied by Hillary's people.  But it is one helluva stuff up in a vital swing state.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 10, 2016, 11:07:06 am
The amazing thing is that Trump has gone so far beyond the pale in this campaign that no one even bothers to condemn him for blatant lying.  He said that Hillary wants to essentially abolish the 2nd amendment and take all the guns out of homes.  That's a lie. But no one even bothers to hammer him over that.  He buries the fact-checkers in such a landslide of blatant lies that they can't keep up.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on August 10, 2016, 11:19:47 am
Trump is making a bed for Clinton, but he will have to lie in it as well.

An political assassination will be the trigger for US gun reform, the NRA and the Republicans will have effectively shot themselves in the foot if such a sad event happens.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 10, 2016, 01:12:34 pm
You'd think so, yet nothing much happened when former Congresswoman Gabby Giffords was shot in the head in 2011 in an assassination attempt which left 6 others dead.  Every time there's another mass shooting in the US, gun sales go through the roof.  Not even the mass murder of young schoolkids leads to any legislative action.

The weird thing is that many Americans believe that an armed citizenry is a useful check on government tyranny.  In particular, the Sovereign Citizens movement repudiates the government's authority over them.  It used to be just a white movement but blacks are now part of it too.  They have no hesitation in pointing guns at any authorities, including police, who seek to enforce laws.  Click HERE (http://www.salon.com/2016/07/18/cop_killer_gavin_long_and_the_danger_of_the_sovereign_citizens_movement/) for an article linking the black shooter who killed 3 Baton Rouge cops with the Moorish branch of the movement.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on August 10, 2016, 03:50:44 pm
http://www.globalresearch.ca/lead-attorney-in-anti-clinton-dnc-fraud-case-mysteriously-found-dead/5540288

Make of this what you will.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 10, 2016, 04:17:54 pm
Why are you posting that crap?  Lead attorney, phooey.  He was a process server, period.  In what twisted world does anybody murder process servers AFTER they've effected service?  What on earth could be gained?  And what a stretch to suggest Clinton has any reason to go after a process server who serves Debbie Wasserman-Shultz and the DNC.  Wow, Bernie Sanders must be in witness protection by now ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on August 10, 2016, 05:23:31 pm
Why are you posting that crap?  Lead attorney, phooey.  He was a process server, period.  In what twisted world does anybody murder process servers AFTER they've effected service?  What on earth could be gained?  And what a stretch to suggest Clinton has any reason to go after a process server who serves Debbie Wasserman-Shultz and the DNC.  Wow, Bernie Sanders must be in witness protection by now ...

Well you seem to have all the answers and you were posting about assassinations and the gung-ho use of guns?  :o
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 10, 2016, 05:46:56 pm
I was posting about real assassination attempts, not fantasies.  But clearly there's an equivalence.  If one talks about horse racing, one clearly opens up discussion of unicorns.  Fair's fair and all that ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on August 10, 2016, 06:32:47 pm
I was posting about real assassination attempts, not fantasies.  But clearly there's an equivalence.  If one talks about horse racing, one clearly opens up discussion of unicorns.  Fair's fair and all that ...

What I posted concerned real actual deaths but you obviously know all about them?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 10, 2016, 06:45:33 pm
It's just a poorly-constructed conspiracy theory.  When the latest supposed assassination is such an obvious crock, it beggars belief that anybody would help to peddle it.  And there I was thinking that Aussies wouldn't fall for that nonsense ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on August 10, 2016, 06:54:38 pm
It's just a poorly-constructed conspiracy theory.  When the latest supposed assassination is such an obvious crock, it beggars belief that anybody would help to peddle it.  And there I was thinking that Aussies wouldn't fall for that nonsense ...

A lot of naivitey going around you reckon Mav? :)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 10, 2016, 07:15:19 pm
Not sure that a propensity to buy into poorly-constructed conspiracy theories is simply explained by naivety.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on August 10, 2016, 09:56:08 pm
Not sure that a propensity to buy into poorly-constructed conspiracy theories is simply explained by naivety.

You are the one drawing  all the conlusions. There are many agendas at work in today's world and with all due respect I doubt you are across all of them. I'll keep an open mind for now rather than espouse any of them.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on August 11, 2016, 12:22:18 am
http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37029170

Surely that's enough.
 ::)

Watching the Republican Party exact it's revenge on Trump supporters as they try to reclaim their party after this farce finishes is going to be fascinating.

Definitely murdering the English language there,  but he is asking the pro gun people to vote against Hilary IMHO, not incite an assassination.  There are opponents better than her so why would he want her replaced?

Thing is its necessary for them to have gun reform but it's the one legislation that might sink Hilary.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on August 11, 2016, 08:11:20 am
Definitely murdering the English language there,  but he is asking the pro gun people to vote against Hilary IMHO, not incite an assassination.  There are opponents better than her so why would he want her replaced?

Thing is its necessary for them to have gun reform but it's the one legislation that might sink Hilary.

What Trump said was no accident, if you believe otherwise you are as naive as his red-neck supporters!

We laugh at the USA at a distance, but reality is we need them to be strong and united. There are infinitely greater threats to humanity than US residents killing themselves, threats that require the presence of a universal policeman.

In my opinion Obama has taken that country in exactly the right direction, they have become a genuine global citizen.

Trump blames Obama for the internal problems in US society. But the reality is it is the likes of Trump and his corporate billionaire cronies that are to blame for the state the USA finds itself in today, not the government! He states he is for jobs, but he employs low cost Mexican or South American casual labour, his actions do not match his words. Is it somewhat ironic that Trump heads a party founded on anti-slavery?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on August 11, 2016, 08:15:17 am
Definitely murdering the English language there,  but he is asking the pro gun people to vote against Hilary IMHO, not incite an assassination.  There are opponents better than her so why would he want her replaced?

Thing is its necessary for them to have gun reform but it's the one legislation that might sink Hilary.

That may be the case....,
But the way it was constructed it can, and has been widely interpreted as a situation where she is already elected and is appointing supreme court justices.... "then there's nothing you can do about it folks."...."Although the second amendment people, maybe there is.”
At the point where she's already elected how the gun people vote is irrelevant.

It only takes 'one gun' nut to put that interpretation on the comment and it becomes outrageously dangerous.
Thankfully the gun possessing people of the United States are a totally sound and stable lot ::)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 11, 2016, 12:31:55 pm
Trump’s Wink Wink to ‘Second Amendment People’ (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/10/opinion/trumps-ambiguous-wink-wink-to-second-amendment-people.html?_r=0), NYT, 11/8/16.

Quote
People are playing with fire here, and there is no bigger flamethrower than Donald Trump. Forget politics; he is a disgusting human being. His children should be ashamed of him. I only pray that he is not simply defeated, but that he loses all 50 people of the states so that the message goes out across the land — unambiguously, loud and clear: The likes of you should never come this way again.

To the analogy with Rabin's assassination, you can add the 3 murders committed by Robert Dear and the attempted assassination of Gabby Giffords.  Robert Dear shot 3 people to death at a Planned Parenthood Centre in Colorado Springs.  Afterwards, he told the police, "No more baby parts!".  This appears to be a clear reference to a video of comments by the head of Planned Parenthood which were deceptively edited to suggest that "baby parts" we're being harvested for sale.  Carly Fiorina, a Republican Presidential candidate, took this a step further, saying she had seen a video showing doctors hacking off the limbs of a foetus which was writhing on the operating table which was just a lie.  This firestorm may well have inspired Dear to go from supergluing the locks of one centre to mass murder.  Dear was found mentally incompetent but, as Lods has noted, crazies and extremists are a concern.

Gabby Giffords was shot by a man who didn't explain his motivations AFAIK but the shooting was preceded by an incendiary campaign against her amongst others which included a graphic of apparent crosshairs over electoral districts.  One of those criticised in the wake of the shooting was Sarah Palin: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sarah-palins-crosshairs-ad-focus-gabrielle-giffords-debate/story?id=12576437 (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sarah-palins-crosshairs-ad-focus-gabrielle-giffords-debate/story?id=12576437).  Of course, the response was that the guy was just a crazy and there was no blame to be had.

The NRA, the Sovereign Citizens Movement and various militias believe that an armed populace is essential to fight back, if necessary, against a tyrannical government.  Suggesting that Hillary is going to take their guns invokes a scenario in which extremists may believe they have a moral right to kill to defend themselves.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on August 11, 2016, 12:49:22 pm
Hilary is Trump's best chance at winning, why would he want her assassinated?

The lunatic left are really reaching on this one.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 11, 2016, 01:09:23 pm
You're creating a straw man to attack.  Critics are saying it is grossly irresponsible and reckless to float the prospect of assassination for the sake of incendiary rhetoric.  Because extremists may not think it is mere rhetoric.  You'd agree with that, wouldn't you?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on August 11, 2016, 01:27:26 pm
On the list of dumb things Trump has said that's way down the list, the democrats twisting what he said is actually more irresponsible.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on August 11, 2016, 01:32:28 pm
On the list of dumb things Trump has said that's way down the list, the democrats twisting what he said is actually more irresponsible.

And it's a long list! :D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 11, 2016, 01:39:40 pm
Twisting?  Logic and grammar point to it being a reference to assassination.  No twisting required.  Unless the "second Amendment people" have access to a Delorean which allows them to go back in time to change the results of the Election, what else could they do to stop Hillary appointing gun control justices if she wins?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on August 11, 2016, 01:44:01 pm
Twisting?  Logic and grammar point to it being a reference to assassination.  No twisting required.  Unless the "second Amendment people" have access to a Delorean which allows them to go back in time to change the results of the Election, what else could they do to stop Hillary appointing gun control justices if she wins?

The election is in November.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on August 11, 2016, 01:45:54 pm
Isn't Trump all about the noise, the chest beating, the money. Not even his own people have belief in him, they just want him to get the GOP into power and they'll take it from there!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 11, 2016, 01:48:00 pm
You realise, don't you, that Trump was setting up a scenario in which Hillary had won the election and was poised to destroy the 2nd amendment with her Supreme Court appointments?  What could the "2A people" do then to stop her (bearing in mind his assertion that nobody else could)?  If he was referring to voting power, why could no one other than 2A people stop her?  Can't people other than 2A people vote?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on August 11, 2016, 01:52:11 pm
You realise, don't you, that Trump was setting up a scenario in which Hillary had won the election and was poised to destroy the 2nd amendment with her Supreme Court appointments?  What could the "2A people" do then to stop her?

Yes I agree, he was sprouting the fear of a presidential assassination as a valid reason for swinging voters to vote for him!

He implied(To express or indicate indirectly) if Clinton gets in she could be the target of a 2nd Amendment lunatic. You could comfortably infer he incited violence. He did so publicly and openly, you can be jailed for that, but this is the guy who said he can walk down the street and shoot somebody without fear of prosecution.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on August 11, 2016, 02:16:32 pm
You realise, don't you, that Trump was setting up a scenario in which Hillary had won the election and was poised to destroy the 2nd amendment with her Supreme Court appointments?  What could the "2A people" do then to stop her (bearing in mind his assertion that nobody else could)?  If he was referring to voting power, why could no one other than 2A people stop her?  Can't people other than 2A people vote?

The guy rambles and goes back and forth, everyone knows that. If every 2A supporter voted for Trump the election would be an annihilation, he was trying to tap in to those voters.

The lunatic left are trying to paint him as a bigger nut job than he already is and that's fair play but don't cry foul when he returns fire. Hilarious last week reading an article in one of our papers saying Trump had gone too far attacking Hilary, wait till he brings up Bill and Monica lol.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 11, 2016, 02:41:13 pm
Seems to be a brilliant strategy if the polls are anything to go by.  Hillary is suggesting that Georgia is now winnable.  Does Trump try to sandbag Red states and take money out of swing states? 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on August 11, 2016, 02:47:26 pm
The guy rambles and goes back and forth, everyone knows that. If every 2A supporter voted for Trump the election would be an annihilation, he was trying to tap in to those voters.

The lunatic left are trying to paint him as a bigger nut job than he already is and that's fair play but don't cry foul when he returns fire. Hilarious last week reading an article in one of our papers saying Trump had gone too far attacking Hilary, wait till he brings up Bill and Monica lol.

MBB, I don't think the guy who basically is alleged to have used the Miss Universe competition like a convenience store has any moral ground to hold over the Clinton family. :D

Do you really think his GOP overlords want him opening that can of worms! :o
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on August 11, 2016, 03:02:44 pm
Hilary is Trump's best chance at winning, why would he want her assassinated?

The lunatic left are really reaching on this one.

It's not just the lunatic left....
Have a look at the footage of the comment.Watch the expression on the Trump supporter behind him.
That Republican's reaction suggests he may have "misinterpreted" the comment as well.

A growing number of Republicans and conservative commentators are expressing frustration with him drifting off-message with his comments.
He says dumb things.
The story is then about his dumb comments....and it goes on for days.

The fact is that it shows a lack of judgement and carelessness that you don't want in a leader.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 11, 2016, 03:12:54 pm
Not to mention that Paul Ryan, Republican Speaker of the House, said that it seemed to be a bad attempt at a joke but it was something that shouldn't be joked about.  In other words, he thought he was joking about assassination and wasn't talking about 2A people voting.  Pity he didn't get the talking points in time!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 11, 2016, 03:40:58 pm
Yet another example of Lods' point about Trump's foot-in-mouth comments taking the attention away from Hillary.

Yesterday, Hillary was embarrassed by the Orlando shooter's father appearing in shot behind her at a Florida rally.  Instead of just letting her twist in the wind, he just had to go on the offensive at one of his own rallies.  You'd think that he'd make sure that no dodgy characters were behind him when he pointed at the in-shot crowd behind him and boasted that he knew a lot of them.  But no.  He had a guy who said he had been a friend of Trump's for 30 years sitting in pretty much the same relative position as Mateen's father.  And that guy was forced to resign in disgrace from Congress because he was sexting Congressional pages, of whom some were underaged boys! 

Why in hell would he draw attention to a paedophile supporter?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on August 12, 2016, 03:56:13 pm
Hillary: "It's time to have a woman in the White House!"

Bill: "Been there, done that!"
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on August 12, 2016, 04:02:33 pm
Trump has to be insane or he doesn't want the gig or both.  ???
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on August 12, 2016, 04:54:29 pm
Trump has to be insane or he doesn't want the gig or both.  ???

I'll go for both
It was a joke of his that's gone too far. ;D
It reminds me of that Malthouse/ McGuire meme where Eddie says..."We've done it Mick', we've ruined Carlton"
I can see Hillary saying to Trump...."Wéve done it Donald, We've destroyed the Republican party!" >:D

On another note...there may be a wild card that's about to impact on this contest.
With the world's attention on the Olympics the Russians have accused the Ukrainians of causing a bit of strife in Crimea.
As a result the Ukrainian forces have gone on to a high alert.
With the uncertainty surrounding the Presidential race it would be an opportune time for the Russians to "try something on" in the weeks and months ahead.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on August 12, 2016, 05:04:00 pm
@Lods

On the other hand Lods the West is currently putting a bit of pressure on both the Russians and Chinese. We all know about what's happening at the Olympics but this Ukraine thing should be regarded with some skepticism. Also, in the last few days we've seen ScoMo suddenly pull the plug on the Chinese bid for the NSW electricity grid without much elaboration. Meanwhile, in the UK the Chinese bid to build a nuclear power station (in partnership with a French company) has suddenly been put under a high degree of scrutiny.
Convenient timing?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on August 12, 2016, 05:12:58 pm
We all know about what's happening at the Olympics but this Ukraine thing should be regarded with some skepticism.

Possibly but...

Quote
The Russo-Georgian War was a war between Georgia, Russia and the Russian-backed self-proclaimed republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The war took place in August 2008 following a period of worsening relations between Russia and Georgia, both formerly constituent republics of the Soviet Union.....Russia accused Georgia of "aggression against South Ossetia", and launched a large-scale land, air and sea invasion of Georgia on 8 August
Quote
The 2008 Summer Olympic Games, officially known as the Games of the XXIX Olympiad  and commonly known as Beijing 2008, was a major international multi-sport event that took place in Beijing, China, from 8 to 24 August 2008.

These guys have form ;)
(BTW also a Presidential election year)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 12, 2016, 05:21:37 pm
The Soviets also invaded Afghanistan on Xmas Day in 1979.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on August 12, 2016, 05:31:06 pm
Possibly but...

These guys have form ;)
(BTW also a Presidential election year)

There's plenty of "form" on both sides  ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on August 12, 2016, 05:47:59 pm
It's a bit embarrassing when you do a google search and find you've used the same terminology as a journo but.... :-[

Quote
The Crimea crisis has come from nowhere but the Russian president has form for military adventures in Olympic years, says Luke Harding

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/10/vladimir-putin-may-believe-time-is-ripe-for-another-invasion

Quote
There are other propitious circumstances this summer. The presidential election is paralysing the US, and the Republican candidate, Donald Trump, has hinted that as president he might recognise Russia’s annexation of Crimea. He seems uncertain as to where Ukraine actually is.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on August 12, 2016, 05:50:52 pm
It's a bit embarrassing when you do a google search and find you've used the same terminology as a journo but.... :-[

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/10/vladimir-putin-may-believe-time-is-ripe-for-another-invasion

Could he be going for gold?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on August 12, 2016, 05:54:57 pm
Could he be going for gold?

He could be. ;D
He won't have much to do next week...there won't be too many Russian Track and Field athletes going around.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on August 14, 2016, 11:43:53 am
It seems like reality is starting to bite the Trump camp.  Not only is he slipping behind in the head to head polls but Clinton's lead in the Democrat held states is ballooning.  Unless Trump can make significant inroads in those states, Clinton is home and hosed.

Trump's pleas for Republican support are becoming more strident and the responses are becoming more negative. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on August 23, 2016, 01:50:35 pm
http://www.theage.com.au/world/bombshell-set-to-hit-clinton-campaign-as-fbi-uncovers-14900-more-documents-in-email-probe-20160822-gqyphf.html
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 23, 2016, 01:56:04 pm
From what I heard, these were all retrieved before the FBI ruled out prosecution, so that decision is not affected by these e-mails.  Their release to the public is the only new feature and what impact they will have on public opinion depends on what is in them.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: BleedBlue on August 24, 2016, 04:38:28 pm
Crooked Hillary & Slick Willy for Prison.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on August 26, 2016, 11:37:57 am
The email scandal doesn't seem to be biting.  Multiple polls in the eleven "battleground" states have Clinton leading by 2-11% and the weighted average is Clinton 45.2% to Trump 39%.

Interestingly, nearly one in four voters polled say that they don't support Clinton or Trump. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 26, 2016, 12:53:22 pm
Not surprising, really, as it's a 'process issue'.  Those issues are less important to most voters than substantive policies.  At its worst, foreign spies might have hacked the emails but that can't be proved even if it can't be excluded.  But Russia and China are pretty good at hacking into government computers anyway, so there's nothing to say the emails would have been safe anyway.  It may be that she was partly motivated by the desire to use her mobile phone to process emails as she travelled and the government system was cumbersome.  Many suspect it was to avoid FOI access to the emails, though she denies that (and as it turns out, they have been released anyway).  The greatest problem has been that she's done a Fonzie by trying to justify herself.  Those attempts have failed badly and she has just dug a hole for herself.  It looks, though, that she has finally learnt her lesson and she is giving an unqualified apology.  When questioned about Colin Powell's denial that he told her to use her private email before she had already started doing so, she said she took full responsibility for her error and she wasn't going to try to shift blame.  If she keeps on doing that, she'll stop feeding the story.  It will still erupt as a story from time to time but she won't exacerbate the negative impact on her credibility by being evasive.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 29, 2016, 12:21:30 pm
Trump is up against the clock now.  Deep into the last quarter, he's still several goals down.

There are only 70 days left until 8 November, but Minnesota opens early voting in just 26 days and 32 other States start voting shortly after that. 

He's still making unforced errors which will make it hard for him to rebound. 

Last week was all about a shift in immigration policy away from immédiate and permanent deportation of the roughly 11 million undocumented Mexicans before doing a U-turn and pledging to order mass deportation within an hour of becoming President.

Then he took to Twitter to celebrate the murder of a black NFL star's first cousin as he thought the fact she was shot to death in the street proves that he's right about blacks needing to vote for him.  After a couple of hours, he realised he had to tweet again to express his sorrow over her death!

Obviously, he wants to show moderate republicans and independents that he's a nice guy for whom they can safely vote but he keeps on stuffing up his lines.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on August 31, 2016, 12:47:07 pm
Trump has accepted the Mexican President's invitation to meet with him in Mexico.  He's going there tomorrow, he says.  The circus continues...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Peter Brady on August 31, 2016, 01:00:10 pm
Trump has accepted the Mexican President's invitation to meet with him in Mexico.  He's going there tomorrow, he says.  The circus continues...

Don't go Donald
There will be no quarter :(
Remember the Alamo!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on August 31, 2016, 01:03:38 pm
Don't go Donald
There will be no quarter :(
Remember the Alamo!

Will they play Degüello (Slit throat ) for him?
 ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 02, 2016, 01:02:13 pm
The national polls have tightened somewhat - Clinton's 10% advantage in the wake of the DNC convention has halved.  That's not surprising as there was always going to be a short-term bounce and a 5% advantage is pretty handy.

Clinton, however, has expanded her lead in battleground states over that same period and that's far more important than the national vote.  Next Monday is Labor Day in the US and is widely regarded as the point at which the vote becomes hard to shift.

I still think the Zika Virus will become a major issue.  It seems to be an ideal topic to raise at the first debate at the end of September.  You'd hope that the moderators won't allow Trump to get away with saying he'll kill all the mosquitos on day 1 in his presidency.  No doubt Hillary won't let him off that easily.

The Zika story is like a sci-fi horror show.  The bad news keeps on coming.  Scientists now believe it stays in semen for 6 months.  Infected mosquitos pass the virus on in the eggs they lay, so wiping out adults doesn't stop an epidemic.  Testing on rats has shown that it can damage adult brains by attacking a type of brain cell which grows into neurons.  If this occurs also in humans, it may damage memory and learning in a similar way to Alzheimer's.  The link to Guillain-Barré Syndrome grows stronger.  Damage to foetuses and babies leads to a much wider array of conditions than microcephaly, from destruction of brain matter to scarred retinas and optic nerves and restrictions in mobility.  It also seems that it can cause disabilities in babies after apparently healthy births. 

Scientists have now found the Zika Virus in 3 populations of mosquitos in Florida.  As scientists believe that tests currently produce a significant percentage of false negatives, they believe the virus is widespread now.

Florida is a battleground State and the concern of Floridians can be deduced from the stridency of Marco Rubio on the issue.  Ordinarily, Republicans aren't supportive of Federal intervention in health matters but Rubio has called on Congress to reconvene as a matter of urgency to throw money at this problem.

Hillary is well-placed to lead on this issue.  Increasing the Federal health budget rather than throwing money at finding and deporting undocumented immigrants and pouring billions into a border wall is right up her alley.  It also brings to the fore the good work that Planned Parenthood does for women given that Congressional Republicans hope to tie increased funding for the fight against Zika to sidelining Planned Parenthood.  To date, Trump has been happy to say it's a State issue.  Will continuing down that line cost him Florida?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on September 02, 2016, 01:58:11 pm
It's hard to trust the public Zika debate now, media are distorting figures because it rates. In reality there have been wildly varying reports from authorities.

While I generally trust scientists, I do not trust lawyers or administrators, and those less ethical types now know funding is associated with the Zika threat, it's in their interests to paint global doom as they get financially rewarded for it.  The more money that pours into Zika the more alleged "connections" will surface, soon it will be the cause of Hitler, ADHD and Terrorism. I had a big debate/argument at CSIRO recently about this, as I felt scientists were sitting on their hands allowing hysterical debate as it brought them funding. They were not pushing the policy line, but they were not vocal in debunking the fear mongers either!

In regards to the wildly varying reports, the CDC itself recently tested about 5000 suspected Zika related health cases, about 70% of those were dismissed immediately as mis-diagnosis leaving 1500 suspects for more detailed investigation. The second round of more in depth testing eliminated another 1200 as markers initially accepted as a health issue were shown to be statistically indeterminate, they couldn't tell if someone was health affected or not so subjective is the assessment. That left about 300 to be explained that had clear signs of a health issue, of the 300 only 6 had been exposed to a Zika infection! That turns out to be equal or less than the normal rate of birth defects for such diseases which in the USA runs between 8 to 15 in every 10000, if ZIka's effects were clear and real that numbers should have risen by some statistically significant amount. Looking at 5000 cases is a very significant study.

The situation is even worse now, in the USA IT companies are getting on board to use "Big Data" in a cure for Zika and are being funded heavily. It's all become a money issue, which is sad because the real labs researching Zika have been around for over a decade and now instead of being financially boosted they have to compete with people for the same money, many of those competitors are selling snake oil!

For example last month there was a global story circulating claiming epidemiological modeling showed up to 90 Million people would be infected by Zika within about 5 years. But those numbers are based on a study that had deliberately selected the worst case scenario for every variable, weather, mosquitos, travel, etc., etc., and then the report deliberately avoided discussing the potential health effects of that many Zika cases. Using the same protocols as this Zika estimate a worst case scenario for climate change apparently suggests that 1.2 Billion will die by 2030.

I understand why people are scared, but it's become almost as bad as the Anti-Vaccination debate.

An estimate mid-last month calculated that there was US$4.5M being spent for every confirmed Zika case, a significant order of magnitude more than diseases like Dengue or Chikungunya which have equal or even worse effects!

Humans are awful at estimating risks, it's an inherited trait that is hypothesized as the Keep Alive mistaken belief. In a nutshell, if you hear the grass rustling and think it's a Lion you'll run away and survive even if it's the wind, but if you hear the grass rustling and thinks it's the wind you're a dead person if it's a lion. The same mechanism is used to explain why so many people are so gullible, apparently we want to believe because on evolutionary time scales it has kept us alive.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 02, 2016, 05:08:35 pm
Hmmm ... strange how you claim scientific studies are showing that the threat of Zika has been greatly exaggerated at the same time as you say scientists are riding the wave of hysteria to obtain extra funding. In particular, you say the CDC has slashed away at the number of confirmed cases and that suggests they are a credible institution in your eyes.  But the CDC is a very strong proponent of urgent funding of the fight against The Zika Virus.  Maybe it's a Jeckyl and Hyde thing.

Seems to me you're fighting a rearguard action since your argument that there was no link between Zika and microcephaly bit the dust.  But if you want an argument over the science, best you start another thread.  This one is about the Presidential Election.  It doesn't matter what the true position regarding Zika is.  The question is how voters will react.  Railing against the "carbon tax" might have been a nonsense in economic and scientific terms but it helped win Tony Abbott an election. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 02, 2016, 05:32:39 pm
Oh, the irony!

After happily floating defamatory and ridiculous conspiracy theories for years (e.g Obama is a secret Muslim who wasn't born in the US and Ted Cruz's father helped Lee Harvey Oswald assassinate JFK), the Trumps have been outraged over an allegation regarding Melania Trump and are suing for defamation! 

http://www.theage.com.au/world/melania-trump-sues-over-tremendously-damaging-escort-reports-20160902-gr7kwf.html (http://www.theage.com.au/world/melania-trump-sues-over-tremendously-damaging-escort-reports-20160902-gr7kwf.html)

Oddly enough, Melania no longer shares the stage with Trump these days ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on September 02, 2016, 08:04:16 pm
you claim scientific studies are showing that the threat of Zika has been greatly exaggerated
No I didn't, I claimed the scientific study which has been used by the media to drum up hysteria was designed to deliberately select the worst case variables.

In particular, you say the CDC has slashed away at the number of confirmed cases and that suggests they are a credible institution in your eyes.  But the CDC is a very strong proponent of urgent funding of the fight against The Zika Virus.  Maybe it's a Jeckyl and Hyde thing.
Only in your mind!

Seems to me you're fighting a rearguard action since your argument that there was no link between Zika and microcephaly bit the dust.
I've never said there is no link, you've deliberately misquoted me to try and support your case. It's a pity you try to distort old long forgotten discussions to stoke your ego!

The earlier results hinted that the 2nd trimester was the critical period, infection before or after has as yet not been related to microcephaly. This has lead some to speculate that the problem isn't the presence of Zika in the placenta but possibly a reaction from the mothers own immune system that is the root cause. I don't know the reason behind why they think that is the case.

This finding is unchanged to date.

But if you want an argument over the science, best you start another thread.  This one is about the Presidential Election.  It doesn't matter what the true position regarding Zika is.  The question is how voters will react.  Railing against the "carbon tax" might have been a nonsense in economic and scientific terms but it helped win Tony Abbott an election.
You are the one who keeps bringing up Zika and Microcephaly, in a hysterical manner, in a political thread. The hysteria is being drummed up by selective media reporting, my concern regarding scientific institutions is as I have said surrounding unscrupulous lawyers and administrators who know how to manipulate the media and public to ensure they receive funding. As it seems from your support of Zika as a political tool my concerns are truly well founded.

Shame Mav, shame! :(
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 02, 2016, 08:22:57 pm
Amazing ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 04, 2016, 05:14:46 pm
Letter from the Directors of the CDC and NIH:

Quote
The Zika virus presents an unprecedented threat to the people of our nation, especially pregnant women. Thus far, t there have been more than 16,800 cases of Zika infection reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in the United States and its territories, including more than 2,700 on the mainland. (That figure includes more than 100 in New Jersey.)

Laboratory tests have confirmed that 1,595 pregnant women have been infected with the virus, and tragically, 17 babies have been born in the United States with birth defects related to Zika.

...

The potential cost of a funding shortfall will be measured in human misery and even death. Every child born with microcephaly as a result of the Zika infection of the mother during pregnancy could require care that costs the family and our health-care system anywhere between $1 million and $10 million over the lifetime of the child. Every child born with microcephaly faces a difficult future, filled with intensive therapy and support. It is a price that no child — no mother, no father, no family — should have to pay, especially given that it can be avoided.
http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/09/cdc_director_how_not_to_fight_the_zika_virus_opini.html (http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/09/cdc_director_how_not_to_fight_the_zika_virus_opini.html)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on September 05, 2016, 07:11:06 am
Why is this election race even a contest still? ???
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 05, 2016, 07:59:50 am
Why is this election race even a contest still? ???

Because both candidates  are terrible.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on September 05, 2016, 08:02:31 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e3ARRQpyzA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e3ARRQpyzA)

re Killary's health.....
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on September 05, 2016, 10:28:25 am
Letter from the Directors of the CDC and NIH:
http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/09/cdc_director_how_not_to_fight_the_zika_virus_opini.html (http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/09/cdc_director_how_not_to_fight_the_zika_virus_opini.html)

Some critical thinking will help you there Mav.

If there are 16800 cases, assuming 50/50 men and women will mean 8400 women. At any one time in the USA 4% of all women are pregnant, 4% of 8400 is 336 but that report states 1595 pregnant women with Zika. By definition if there were 1595 is pregnant women infected with Zika that would be 4% of all Zika cases, which would have to be 39875 female cases of Zika infection and assuming a 50/50 distribution of sexes 79850 cases in total.

Where does the 16800 cases come from that has a massive number of 1595 pregnant women, that would need about 19% of women in that group to be pregnant which is 5X the US average?

They must be rooting for Zika! :D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 05, 2016, 10:35:14 am
Hmmm ... let me see.  Do I side with some guy tapping away on a calculator or the Director of the world-renowned CDC?  Tough one, that.  Maybe I'll go with the CDC guy.  By the way, do you think that the CDC might prioritise testing pregnant women or that pregnant women might be more likely to seek out testing and advice?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on September 05, 2016, 11:35:58 am
http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/donald-trump-closing-gap-on-hillary-clinton-as-november-vote-looms-20160904-gr8qbi.html

Gee, I'd just about written off the Trumpster but maybe that was a premature extrapolation?

I will be over there about a month before the election so it may be a very interesting visit.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on September 05, 2016, 11:54:53 am
http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/donald-trump-closing-gap-on-hillary-clinton-as-november-vote-looms-20160904-gr8qbi.html

Gee, I'd just about written off the Trumpster but maybe that was a premature extrapolation?

I will be over there about a month before the election so it may be a very interesting visit.

This is the key point... ;)
Quote
However, Mrs Clinton maintained healthy leads in key battleground states including Pennsylvania, Ohio and North Carolina.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 05, 2016, 12:19:13 pm
Yep.  Gore received half a million more votes than Bush in 2000.  A national opinion poll isn't as useful a predictor as polls in battleground states.  When you look at electoral college votes, Trump needs to win a large proportion of the battleground states.  The "electoral math", as the Yanks say, favour her.  She can win by sweeping the "rust belt states" (the north-eastern industrial states like Pennsylvania and Ohio), the Eastern seaboard (including Florida with its 29 electoral college votes), or the increasingly Latino states in the south-west such as Nevada, Colorado and Arizona.  She can afford to keep all those strategies going for now as she is blitzing Trump when it comes to fundraising and this forces him to spread his time and effort.  Then she can concentrate on the strongest strategy in the final run home.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 05, 2016, 12:25:00 pm
The polls don't  mean anything, if they did  Trump wouldn't  have got this far. America  doesn't  trust Hilary and that will show in November.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: spf on September 05, 2016, 12:55:22 pm
Anyone would think there were only two candidates running, guess it comes down to who the media elect.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on September 05, 2016, 01:30:34 pm
Mav you really need to read this stuff before you post, your link (http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/09/cdc_director_how_not_to_fight_the_zika_virus_opini.html) supports my case not yours!

Hmmm ... let me see.  Do I side with some guy tapping away on a calculator or the Director of the world-renowned CDC? Tough one, that. Maybe I'll go with the CDC guy.
The numbers are important, they can be trusted when opinions cannot, and if an expert or the media publishes rubbery or misleading numbers they should be called to account! If you had used a calculator you might better off! :D

By the way, do you think that the CDC might prioritise testing pregnant women or that pregnant women might be more likely to seek out testing and advice?
That is not what was stated or contained in the very article that the count links to, you coloured that to suit your argument. Further, given that Zika is a notifiable condition and spreads not just by mosquito but is also sexually transmitted, the referenced stats should not favor a specific sex.

But surprisingly in the stats link (http://www.cdc.gov/zika/geo/united-states.html) an interesting footnote;
Quote
§Only includes cases meeting the probable or confirmed CSTE case definition and does not include asymptomatic infections unless the case is a pregnant woman with a complication of pregnancy
They exclude people from the count who are asymptomatic(healthy carriers) unless they are pregnant with a complication, which introduces a selection bias. Women who were pregnant, had tested positive with Zika, but had no symptoms or pregnancy complications are excluded from the figures!

As an aside, people who are asymptomatic have antibodies to the virus, some of the very new research is suggesting it may well be the Zika antibodies and not the virus that are doing the damage in the 2nd trimester. If that is true the concern is that the immunisation might do as much harm as it does good if the timing is wrong! No wonder they want money quickly, the cure might be worse than the disease! It would be the first time in history humans have tried to fix something and made things worse! All in all it's shouts patience is a virtue.

That CDC statement is basically arguing a case for more money as I outlined earlier. The article even discusses having to remove funds from other far more immediate and serious health threats to fund the Zika fight.

That is scaremongering at it's finest, scientists playing politics to get funding, they should be working for the GOP!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 05, 2016, 01:30:42 pm
There are only 2.  None of the others has any chance of winning.  The most they might achieve is to syphon off enough votes to swing a particular state from Trump to Clinton or vice-versa.  Arguably, Ralph Nader took enough votes away from Gore in Florida in 2000 to give Bush the presidency. 

Only Johnson has a chance of meeting the 15% threshold in opinion polls necessary to qualify for the 3 debates but the odds are against him.

You could argue that this is unfair and every candidate should be covered but that's not necessarily what the public wants nor what is ideal.  Using our own system as a comparison, just how much do we really need to hear from Lambie, Hanson and Lleyonholm? Their "policies" and views are on the net if you have any interest, just as Americans can read up on the Libertarian Party, Greens and the Never Trump guy McMullin (?).

PS:  On reflection, the analogy with Hanson et al isn't quite right.  The way the preference system works here means they have a chance to win seats in the Senate and hold greater power than their paltry support would justify.  But would we really want to hear too much about some motley crew who put up candidates in every seat without having any prospect of winning any?

That's the big difference between our 2 political systems.  There are no 2nd prizes in the US Presidential election.  The loser may end up with 200 or more electoral college votes but that means bugger all.  With our representative system, an independent winning a seat in the House of Reps might make him or her a kingmaker in a hung parliament or give him or her the swing vote in the Senate.  A few 3rd party candidates in Presidential elections have won the electoral votes in one or more states but that has only entitled them to a brief footnote in history.

Even worse, splintering the electoral college vote could lead to mayhem in the US.  Imagine if Clinton ends up with 269 Electoral College votes and Trump lags behind with 230, the others going to 3rd party candidates.  That would mean the House of Representatives would appoint the President.  And that means the Republicans select the new President given the gerrymander they currently enjoy.  Imagine if they appoint Trump.  In effect, they would be giving the votes of the other candidates to Trump even though some may belong to a Never Trump candidate.  Civil unrest would be guaranteed. Until the Constitution is amended to give the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most electoral college votes rather than the one who obtains a majority, splintering the vote is a nightmare scenario that the press shouldn't foster.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on September 08, 2016, 11:27:53 am
Trump says he has a plan to stop ISIS
Trump says he (Trump) knows more about ISIS than the Generals.

Trumps plan to stop ISIS is to give the Generals 30 days to come up with a plan to stop ISIS ???

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/09/07/donald-trump-said-he-had-a-secret-plan-to-defeat-isis-as-of-now-hes-not-planning-to-use-it/
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 08, 2016, 12:00:33 pm
Surprise, surprise  :))

The problem for Clinton is that Trump can be the lightning rod for frustration over the Middle East and terrorism.  That his "policies" are BS isn't the point.  There's an appetite for knocking over the chess board and starting over.  Of course, such a simplistic strategy doesn't work well in practice.  The US knocked over the chess board in Afghanistan and Iraq but things didn't work out so well.  Trump likes to limit the issue to defeating ISIS militarily.  Sure, the US can invade ISIS territory and "win" fairly quickly but what happens then?

Why in hell would they make Matt Lauer the moderator?  That's like getting Kochie or Stefanovic to moderate a national security debate.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on September 08, 2016, 12:08:32 pm
Trump says he has a plan to stop ISIS
Trump says he (Trump) knows more about ISIS than the Generals.

Trumps plan to stop ISIS is to give the Generals 30 days to come up with a plan to stop ISIS ???

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/09/07/donald-trump-said-he-had-a-secret-plan-to-defeat-isis-as-of-now-hes-not-planning-to-use-it/

Wonder how the Trump plan would deal with the Syrian situation and subsequently Iran/Pakistan? Bad as ISIS is, the latter are now greater potential threats in terms of conflict escalation.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 09, 2016, 09:45:26 am
Gary Johnson, the Libertarian Party nominee, has just made a major gaffe during an MSNBC interview.  He was asked what he thought of Aleppo.  In a variation of Hanson's "Please explain", he asked, "What is Aleppo?"  He must have thought he was a contestant on Jeopardy.  The guy who asked the question looked like Johnson had vomited on the table as he explained it is the city at the epicentre of the war in Syria. 

David Axelrod tweeted that this was probably a good time to use the "Sorry, I was high" card (he favours legalisation of marijuana and says he smokes it but he's promised not to do so in the White House).

Probably, this will help Clinton.  Trump does better in debates when he has more than 1 opponent whereas Clinton wants to zero in on Trump.  Johnson requires an average of 15% in certain polls to qualify for the debates.  He was sitting on only 9% and dropped slightly below that over the last week.  The opinion pollsters are shifting from polling registered voters to polling likely voters and the thinking is that this will work against him.  This unforced fumble will compound his problems.

The other benefit to Clinton is that Johnson is likely to take votes from her rather than Trump.  Republicans who dislike Trump may feel better about voting for a Libertarian than Clinton.  If he self-destructs, those voters may go to Clinton.  On the other hand, it's not likely that Johnson was ever going to lure voters who like Trump.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 09, 2016, 10:08:43 am
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/08/opinion/donald-trump-is-lying-in-plain-sight.html

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Bear on September 09, 2016, 10:17:04 am
Wonder how the Trump plan would deal with the Syrian situation and subsequently Iran/Pakistan? Bad as ISIS is, the latter are now greater potential threats in terms of conflict escalation.

Assuming he has a plan is pretty generous.



Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on September 09, 2016, 10:17:40 am
John Cassidy's article in the New Yorker is an interesting read and I'll reproduce his concluding paragraph:

Quote
It should be noted that numbers like these have seldom, if ever, been seen before in a U.S. Presidential election. To many Americans, the election has come down to a choice between the unpalatable and the unthinkable. But in this strange and dystopian contest, Clinton retains a distinct advantage. In the weeks ahead, which will see three Presidential debates and, almost certainly, more surprises, we will find out if she can maintain it all the way to the finish line.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 09, 2016, 10:53:59 am
The phoney war is finally over.  Labor Day was last Monday in the US and that is the time that voters start to concentrate on the campaign.  There are 60 days left and that's actually longer than most of our Federal election campaigns.

Voting starts in Minnesota in exactly 2 weeks and other states have various dates for early voting.  The 1st debate takes place on 26 September - a fortnight from next Monday.  Votes may be cast or minds made up within 3 weeks from now.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on September 09, 2016, 11:38:49 am
Gary Johnson, the Libertarian Party nominee, has just made a major gaffe during an MSNBC interview.  He was asked what he thought of Aleppo.  In a variation of Hanson's "Please explain", he asked, "What is Aleppo?"  He must have thought he was a contestant on Jeopardy.  The guy who asked the question looked like Johnson had vomited on the table as he explained it is the city at the epicentre of the war in Syria. 

David Axelrod tweeted that this was probably a good time to use the "Sorry, I was high" card (he favours legalisation of marijuana and says he smokes it but he's promised not to do so in the White House).

Probably, this will help Clinton.  Trump does better in debates when he has more than 1 opponent whereas Clinton wants to zero in on Trump.  Johnson requires an average of 15% in certain polls to qualify for the debates.  He was sitting on only 9% and dropped slightly below that over the last week.  The opinion pollsters are shifting from polling registered voters to polling likely voters and the thinking is that this will work against him.  This unforced fumble will compound his problems.

The other benefit to Clinton is that Johnson is likely to take votes from her rather than Trump.  Republicans who dislike Trump may feel better about voting for a Libertarian than Clinton.  If he self-destructs, those voters may go to Clinton.  On the other hand, it's not likely that Johnson was ever going to lure voters who like Trump.

What an absolutely stupid question to ask.

No wonder American Politics is in the toilet.  Most of the American people wouldnt know what Aleppo is either.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on September 09, 2016, 11:53:23 am
What an absolutely stupid question to ask.

No wonder American Politics is in the toilet.  Most of the American people wouldnt know what Aleppo is either.

Didn't Jesus heal one?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on September 09, 2016, 01:46:49 pm
What an absolutely stupid question to ask.

No wonder American Politics is in the toilet.  Most of the American people wouldnt know what Aleppo is either.

If Johnson Googles "Aleppo" now he'll have a fair idea. ;D
His name is inextricably linked to it ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Koutz on September 09, 2016, 02:23:58 pm
Clinton is a lying snake and should be in jail. These liberal crack heads need to stop pushing their agendas and start thinking about the people that they represent!
The reason Trump has been good is the fact he questions everything including the media who are just ridiculously bias! His not like every other robot out there that just accepts things for what they are, and wont dare to question.
This world needs change and the quicker it happens the better! The elite are just gaining way too much power!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: laj on September 09, 2016, 02:42:47 pm
Clinton is a lying snake and should be in jail. These liberal crack heads need to stop pushing their agendas and start thinking about the people that they represent!
The reason Trump has been good is the fact he questions everything including the media who are just ridiculously bias! His not like every other robot out there that just accepts things for what they are, and wont dare to question.
This world needs change and the quicker it happens the better! The elite are just gaining way too much power!

She'll be in the White House in January instead.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on September 09, 2016, 02:52:26 pm
Clinton is a lying snake and should be in jail. These liberal crack heads need to stop pushing their agendas and start thinking about the people that they represent!
The reason Trump has been good is the fact he questions everything including the media who are just ridiculously bias! His not like every other robot out there that just accepts things for what they are, and wont dare to question.
This world needs change and the quicker it happens the better! The elite are just gaining way too much power!

Trump is about as elite as it gets. His questioning is dubious at best.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on September 09, 2016, 03:15:10 pm
Trump is about as elite as it gets. His questioning is dubious at best.

The elite has got a bet each way - whoever wins the election, the elite will win.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on September 09, 2016, 03:21:17 pm
The elite has got a bet each way - whoever wins the election, the elite will win.

True - to be a presidential candidate, you would have to be one of the elites.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 10, 2016, 11:14:07 am
Apparently, voting is already underway!  North Carolina has already sent out absentee voting ballots to those who requested them.  North Carolina is a battleground state.

Quote
In a possible sign of increased interest, 34,788 voters as of Friday had requested absentee ballots, according to the North Carolina State Board of Elections, up from about 25,600 from a similar timeframe in 2012. Broken down by party, the requests were somewhat evenly divided — 37 percent Democrat to 35 percent Republican and 28 percent who were unaffiliated with a party. Ballots were being mailed Friday with votes likely to start arriving in the coming days.

...

The stakes are high: Voters who cast ballots in advance are expected to make up between 50 to 75 percent or more of all ballots in the battlegrounds of North Carolina, Colorado, Florida, Nevada, Arizona and Georgia, according to data compiled by The Associated Press.
https://www.apnews.com/a0a6c4220d204a28869b54b8e7906720 (https://www.apnews.com/a0a6c4220d204a28869b54b8e7906720)

Hard to read those stats.  How many Democrats who applied for early voting ballots are Sanders voters who might vote against Clinton and how many Republicans will desert Trump?  My guess is that Trump will lose more defectors than Clinton.  And the 28% who aren't identified with those 2 parties exceeds the 10-15% opinion polls suggest will vote for 3rd party candidates, meaning there's a lot of swinging voters.

Next week, ballots will be mailed out to overseas military personnel and battleground states Wisconsin, Virginia and Iowa will mail out theirs before the end of the month.

Of course, voters don't have to return their ballots early.  But if they do, later developments become less important and Trump's decision to defer running ads might have been an error.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 12, 2016, 08:01:09 am
Terrible week for Clinton and that was before she collapsed.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on September 12, 2016, 09:59:10 am
Terrible week for Clinton and that was before she collapsed.

Start the whole process again. :(
It's a trainwreck ::)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on September 12, 2016, 10:22:43 am
Be interesting to see what the Trumpster makes of it - will he open his mouth and put his big foot right in it?  ???
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 12, 2016, 10:24:38 am
Interesting to see how it pans out.  If it is pneumonia, is it just bad luck like getting the flu or is it related to lack of physical or psychological stamina?  If the former, it's inconvénient but not so bad.  She's been trying to present a small target and this might even help in that regard.  No doubt Trump will attack her over her health and use it to leverage the conspiracy theories over having brain damage.  If the illness is only bad luck, those attacks might come across as unfair, particularly as Trump seems to believe that women are the weaker sex.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on September 12, 2016, 10:36:32 am
Terrible week for Clinton and that was before she collapsed.

Yes, but she has a long way to go before she can match Trump's ongoing sequence of terrible weeks.

I don't think there's been two more uninspiring candidates.  Well, perhaps Rudd and Abbott would go close.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 12, 2016, 10:43:55 am
Yes, but she has a long way to go before she can match Trump's ongoing sequence of terrible weeks.

I don't think there's been two more uninspiring candidates.  Well, perhaps Rudd and Abbott would go close.

She doesn't have to match him, she's held to a higher standard.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/08/opinion/donald-trump-is-lying-in-plain-sight.html

Quote
“Donald Trump, the Republican nominee for President, does not so much struggle with the truth as strangle it altogether. He lies to avoid. He lies to inflame. He lies to promote and to preen. Sometimes he seems to lie just for the hell of it. He traffics in conspiracy theories that he cannot possibly believe and in grotesque promises that he cannot possibly fulfill. When found out, he changes the subject — or lies larger.”

And yet in polls like the CNN/ORC poll released Tuesday, Trump leads Clinton on the issue of being honest and trustworthy by 15 percentage points.

Quote
I believe that this is in large part because we, an irresponsible media, have built a false equivalency in which the choice between Clinton and Trump seems to have equally bad implications, because we have framed it as a choice between a liar and a lunatic.

But this obscures the fact that the lunatic is also a pathological liar of a kind and quality that we have not seen in recent presidential politics and perhaps ever.

Trump is in a category all his own.

Part of the reason for Clinton’s problems is that she is being held to a traditional level of honesty and integrity, as she should be.

But Trump is being held to a wholly different, more flexible standard. When he takes a different position over years or months or days or even hours, that is not simply an innocent evolution, but a flat-out lie.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 12, 2016, 10:46:53 am
After scanning a few medical sites, it looks like both sides will have an argument.  Pneumonia often develops after flus and other respiratory infections, so Clinton's camp will be able to say it was just one of those things.  On the other hand, those with dementia have a greater susceptibility to it and you can imagine that the Trump camp will wheel out supposed medical experts who are willing to deduce that she's suffering dementia after the concussion she suffered a few years back. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on September 12, 2016, 11:54:36 am
After scanning a few medical sites, it looks like both sides will have an argument.  Pneumonia often develops after flus and other respiratory infections, so Clinton's camp will be able to say it was just one of those things.  On the other hand, those with dementia have a greater susceptibility to it and you can imagine that the Trump camp will wheel out supposed medical experts who are willing to deduce that she's suffering dementia after the concussion she suffered a few years back.

There is the oft quoted remark by Bill too, made following a serious fall she had in 2012 I think. This is often picked up  by so called conspiracy theorists and from memory he said that it took six months of serious treatment/work to get her over that, but it's not clear what injuries she actually may have sustained.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on September 12, 2016, 01:24:10 pm
I'd heard her family did not want her to run because of her health issues, something about having a throat condition that can lead to a collapse of her airway. It's apparently why she coughs all the time. But apparently it's quite common, and people have lived into their hundreds with the same condition.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on September 12, 2016, 02:00:39 pm
She has also had a few blood clots and is on blood thinners...but who isn't. ;)
It's one of the joys of growing old that we become susceptible to these things.
Most folk her age would experience similar problems.
The health problems become an issue when they are highlighted and then she has the odd episode like yesterday.
If she makes it through what will be a rough couple of months with no further incidents she should be fine but she can't afford repeat problems given that her health is now a major, and relevant, point of concern
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Woodstock on September 12, 2016, 07:30:03 pm
If she had to pull out for medical reason, is her vp running mate instated as primary candidate automatically, or can the democrats convene for a special sit down?

#feelthebern
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on September 12, 2016, 07:50:04 pm
She has also had a few blood clots and is on blood thinners...

Yep that is it, she'd had a blood clot that left part of her throat paralysed which is why she coughs so much speaking.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: sandsmere on September 13, 2016, 06:17:58 am
She can't handle the pressure I reckon.

And is not even the president yet.

 Putin and his Chinese counterpart must be rolling around laughing.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 14, 2016, 06:22:06 am
Hillary's long history of lying

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/rita-panahi/rita-panahi-on-us-presidential-nominee-hillary-clintons-long-history-of-lying/news-story/bcaefc129da722db03f315c2f862573d?utm_content=SocialFlow&utm_campaign=EditorialSF&utm_source=HeraldSun&utm_medium=Twitter

Quote
However, the Democratic presidential nominee has a long history of lying, not only when it’s expedient, but also when there is absolutely no reason to lie.

She has made up bizarre fantasies that have been exposed as falsehoods. It’s little wonder many now doubt her claims that she’s fighting fit after vision emerged of her being held up by Secret Service agents, Weekend at Bernie’s style, as her team made a hasty escape from media covering a 9/11 memorial event.  


The most remarkable aspect of Clinton’s persistent deceit is that she’s managed to get away with so much for so long and still remains the hot favourite to become the next leader of the free world.

Her claim that she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary went unchallenged for more than a decade despite the fact Clinton was born in 1947, six years before the New Zealander conquered Everest and became a household name.

Then there was her claim that she dodged bullets during a 1996 visit to Bosnia as first lady that was deemed too dangerous for her husband to attend.

“I remember landing under sniper fire,” she said. “There was supposed to be some kind of a greeting ceremony at the airport, but instead we just ran with our heads down to get into the vehicles to get to our base.”

Only problem with that tale was that it was disputed by celebrities in her travelling party as well as by video footage of the arrival ceremony, which showed a smiling Hillary and daughter Chelsea being greeted by officials and an eight-year-old girl reading a poem.

Turns out there was no gunfire, no running to vehicles, no threat to the then first lady whatsoever.

But Clinton’s most shameful lie, and one that makes her a pariah among many military personnel, is the disgraceful duplicity that followed the Benghazi killings on September 11, 2012. Knowing that it was a terror attack by Islamists inspired by 9/11 that could do untold damage to the Obama administration in the lead-up to the November poll, Clinton sought to blame a YouTube video for the uprising.

According to the family members of the slain men, one of whom was brutally tortured on video before being killed, Clinton lied to them about what inspired the killing, even promising to “have the filmmaker arrested who was responsible for the death of your son”.

It would be a delicious irony if the “lie” that undoes Clinton’s presidential hopes is the one that is not really a lie at all.

Despite the myriad conspiracy theories about her health issues it is possible that she is perfectly healthy and that the occasional episodes of ill-health are normal for a 68-year-old woman taking part in a gruelling campaign.

Those outside the mainstream media diagnosing Clinton with everything from Parkinson’s disease to brain cancer suddenly sound less crazy thanks to Clinton’s history of incessant lying. Of course it doesn’t help that the Clinton camp was not forthcoming with her current ailment until its hand was forced by that remarkable footage.

It was all going so well a few weeks ago as Clinton, soaring in the polls, hammed it up with comic Jimmy Kimmel on his talk show, even opening a jar of pickles to show how virile she was.

Hillary is not laughing anymore. The polls have tightened with Trump even leading in some recent polls; pundits argue that any other conventional Republican candidate would be trouncing her.

Clinton’s greatest blunder during the campaign came just before her recent collapse.

Addressing an elite NYC crowd she revealed a tin-ear for public sentiment. “You can put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the ‘basket of deplorables’,” she said. “They’re racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic, you name it. And unfortunately, there are people like that. And he has lifted them up.”

This was precisely the tactic used by the Brexit “Remainers” that failed spectacularly. Labelling hardworking Americans who don’t want to vote for you as racist misogynists is weapons-grade stupidity. Those seeking to characterise scrutiny of Clinton’s health and age as inherently sexist have obviously forgotten the level of focus on the health of John McCain, Bob Dole and Dick Cheney.

Clinton’s “victimhood” tactic may play to Left-leaning members of the media but an increasingly cynical electorate is not interested in such self-serving nonsense.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 14, 2016, 10:56:57 am
Given that Trump lies far worse than she does, so what?  This is a 2 horse race and George "I can not tell a lie" Washington isn't in it.  for every alleged lie from Clinton, there are many from Trump.  He never apologises or withdraws when he's caught out lying.  Many examples can be given but the most obvious is the birther campaign where he disputed that Obama was born in the US and claimed he had hired a PI who had found evidence to the contrary.  And don't tell me he should be judged differently as he was a businessman and not a politician.  He's been harbouring a desire to run for the presidency for a long time.  And there's no reason a dodgy businessman shouldn't be called to account in a presidential campaign anyway. 

Panahi showed her colours when she brought up Benghazi.  What a crock that was. 

Obama is campaigning for Clinton while she's laid up.  He's a much better campaigner than either Clinton or Trump.  His approval rating is up to 58% and he's a powerful orator.  Turn out is a vital issue for Clinton and he can energise voters, particularly black and minority voters.  Apparently, he is likely to campaign heavily for her in October.  There's little doubt he will do so passionately.  His legacy depends to a large degree on a Clinton victory and he wouldn't be human if he didn't hold a very large grudge against Trump after the birther outrage which was a thinly-veiled racist attack.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on September 14, 2016, 11:35:11 am
Obama is campaigning for Clinton while she's laid up.  He's a much better campaigner than either Clinton or Trump.  His approval rating is up to 58% and he's a powerful orator.  Turn out is a vital issue for Clinton and he can energise voters, particularly black and minority voters.  Apparently, he is likely to campaign heavily for her in October.  There's little doubt he will do so passionately.  His legacy depends to a large degree on a Clinton victory and he wouldn't be human if he didn't hold a very large grudge against Trump after the birther outrage which was a thinly-veiled racist attack.

It' s hard to imagine why this Clinton/Trump campaign isn't bad enough for the US to change the rules to let Obama run again. He doesn't even have to mount his own argument for the case!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 14, 2016, 11:36:08 am
Given that Trump lies far worse than she does, so what? 

Wow very defensive about crooked Hillary, I posted an article about Trump being a liar already.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on September 14, 2016, 11:39:56 am
The whole US election is proof that money corrupts.

They are in a race to the bottom, in the old days it was called anarchy!

The US public won't be too happy if Trump gets in, if they protest he is likely to turn the National Guard on his own people.

Hilary will be too busy feathering her own nest to care!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 14, 2016, 11:53:28 am
Why are you taking it personally?  I was responding to Panahi rather than you.  By pasting her article, you were inviting comment on it. 

I knew you'd posted about Trump and I therefore didn't regard you as a Trump booster.  In my mind's eye, I see you in the "disruptor" category, those dissatisfied with the present political system.  That's not a criticism, at least in my mind.  The bulk of Sanders supporters are too. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on September 14, 2016, 11:58:36 am
Why are you taking it personally?  I was responding to Panahi rather than you.  By pasting her article, you were inviting comment on it. 

I knew you'd posted about Trump and I therefore didn't regard you as a Trump booster.  In my mind's eye, I see you in the "disruptor" category, those dissatisfied with the present political system.  That's not a criticism, at least in my mind. The bulk of Sanders supporters are too.

Hell it proves he has brains.

For me, I would state the only way the American people can win on this choice is if they don't vote.

It would send a clear message to the government surrounding lifting their standards, and I was borderline thinking that this might be the way forward in Australia too.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on September 14, 2016, 12:01:36 pm
In my mind's eye, I see you in the "disruptor" category, those dissatisfied with the present political system.

Would you seriously label someone like MBB as a disruptor, a person who obviously thinks the US system stinks and quite possibly with good reason?

It could easily be argued that it is Trump and Clinton doing the disrupting, they appear to have hijacked the US political system for their own means and ends.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 14, 2016, 12:06:11 pm
Why are you taking it personally?  I was responding to Panahi rather than you.  By pasting her article, you were inviting comment on it. 

I knew you'd posted about Trump and I therefore didn't regard you as a Trump booster.  In my mind's eye, I see you in the "disruptor" category, those dissatisfied with the present political system.  That's not a criticism, at least in my mind.  The bulk of Sanders supporters are too.

Fair enough, I thought "so what?" was directed at me.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 14, 2016, 12:11:12 pm
Thry, if it were Clinton v Romney, I'd have no problem with that.  But Trump is a disaster waiting to happen and we can't insulate ourselves from a Trump Presidency.  Trump would be ecstatic if voters see a false equivalency between Clinton and him, throw their hands up in the air out of frustration and refuse to vote.

What the Yanks need to do is conduct root and branch reform of campaign financing and lobbying.  That's currently impossible.  The Supreme Court has ruled that corporations are people too and they have a constitutionally protected right to free speech and that entends to the right to use money to influence political decisions - see the Citizens United case.  Chief Justice Roberts said he sees no evil in politicians supporting the interests of corporate interests in return for campaign financing.  In his view, that is democracy at work.  Until the Supreme Court reverses that position, there's no hope of changing the system.  It's much more likely that Clinton will nominate Supreme Court Justices who will reverse Citizens United than Trump.  There is a current vacancy to fill and maybe a couple of others in the next 4 years.  That may allow that ruling to be reversed or at least wound back.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 14, 2016, 12:30:42 pm
LP, I don't see the term 'disruptor' as perjorative.  AFAIK, it has entered the lexicon after the success of Uber in breaking into an old system and shaking it up.  It's now used in a positive sense when talking about people who seek to reinvent various industries.  I'd imagine that change-seekers would wear it as a badge of honour.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on September 14, 2016, 01:08:44 pm
Obama is campaigning for Clinton while she's laid up.  He's a much better campaigner than either Clinton or Trump.  His approval rating is up to 58% and he's a powerful orator. 

"Don't it always seem to go,That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone"....Joni Mitchell :(
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: dodge on September 14, 2016, 03:57:57 pm
Heard something interesting on the radio the other day...

Apparently the polls are showing a third person (can't remember his name) is sitting @~9%.

If Clinton or Trump don't get a majority, which may happen with the above getting a significant number of votes, the House of Reps gets to vote on who becomes President.  House of Reps are also up for election, but if it remained status quo, there is a significant Republic majority.  However, with some internal dissatisfaction with Trump, it is not necessarily so that he would be a shoe in.

I would also be interested who would be favoured if there is a very low voter turn out.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 14, 2016, 05:45:56 pm
The House only elects the President if no candidate wins 270 electoral college votes. That simply can't happen unless someone other than Clinton or Trump wins 1 or more electoral college votes. To win votes, a 3rd party candidate would have to receive more votes than both Clinton or Trump in a State (or in the case of a couple of states which split up their votes into districts, by winning g such a district). Getting 9% of the vote won't do that.

What a 3rd party candidate might do is take enough votes from either Trump or Clinton to swing a state one way or the other. Unfortunately, it's most likely that they'll syphon off votes from Clinton. Disaffected Sanders voters might go Green or Libertarian. Never Trump Republicans might prefer to vote for the Libertarians or for the Never Trump candidate. If it were only a 2 horse race, many would opt for Clinton.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on September 14, 2016, 08:45:23 pm
The House only elects the President if no candidate wins 270 electoral college votes. That simply can't happen unless someone other than Clinton or Trump wins 1 or more electoral college votes. To win votes, a 3rd party candidate would have to receive more votes than both Clinton or Trump in a State (or in the case of a couple of states which split up their votes into districts, by winning g such a district). Getting 9% of the vote won't do that.

What a 3rd party candidate might do is take enough votes from either Trump or Clinton to swing a state one way or the other. Unfortunately, it's most likely that they'll syphon off votes from Clinton. Disaffected Sanders voters might go Green or Libertarian. Never Trump Republicans might prefer to vote for the Libertarians or for the Never Trump candidate. If it were only a 2 horse race, many would opt for Clinton.

....or stay home ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: dodge on September 15, 2016, 01:29:14 am
Thanks Mav
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Woodstock on September 15, 2016, 08:25:51 am
Read this in the Guardian this morning. Poignant to this discussion of root and branch reform.

Leaked documents reveal secretive influence of corporate cash on politics.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/14/corporate-cash-john-doe-files-scott-walker-wisconsin?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 15, 2016, 11:00:51 am
Yep, campaign finance reform is desperately needed but hamstrung by the Constitution, according to their Supreme Court.  Dark money and super-PACS give the wealthy plenty of influence.  The Koch brothers' Red State Strategy and financing of politically-loaded higher education are also influential, the former enabling the Republicans to gerrymander the House.

Is a disaster unfolding?  Don't Look Now: Donald Trump Has All The Momentum In The 2016 Race, (http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/dont-look-now-donald-trump-has-all-the-momentum-in-the-2016-race-20160914-grgmar.html) the Age, 15/9/16.

Looks like the 1st Presidential Debate is looking more and more critical.  Unfortunately for Clinton, she is expected to win it given her debating skills, so she'll have to slay him mercilessly to benefit from it.  A decent showing from Trump would be a win for him.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on September 15, 2016, 02:36:51 pm
Is a disaster unfolding?  Don't Look Now: Donald Trump Has All The Momentum In The 2016 Race, (http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/dont-look-now-donald-trump-has-all-the-momentum-in-the-2016-race-20160914-grgmar.html) the Age, 15/9/16.

Yep
It defies everything that's rational but.....
 
Quote
“This shouldn’t be close, but it’s close,” President Obama said at a fundraiser Tuesday night......

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/the-trump-surge/ar-BBwaCWt?li=AAgfYrC
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 16, 2016, 12:31:21 pm
Trump has finally admitted that Obama was born in America.  The Washington Post published an interview with him this morning in which he refused to do so but his campaign has released a statement on his behalf in which he blames (falsely) Clinton for disputing his place of birth and claiming that by forcing Obama to release his long-form birth certificate he helped Obama and showed his patriotism and ability as a closer.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on September 16, 2016, 01:35:49 pm
Well most people, at least the ones I speak to and read, thought this was Hilary's to lose. It couldn't really happen could it?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 16, 2016, 03:35:41 pm
Maybe this is looking for the silver lining but it's not a bad thing that voters realise that Trump might get in if they don't turn out to vote.  Apathy might bring Clinton undone, especially as she isn't the most exciting of candidates.

In the Brexit vote, the Remain camp had the lead in polls taken just before the vote.  As we know, a number of voters had buyers' remorse after the event, saying that they only voted Leave as a protest vote, thinking that the vote would be in favour of remaining in the EU.  Perhaps the tightening polls in the presidential race might provoke moderate Republicans and Sanders bros to vote for Hillary instead of the Greens or Libertarians.  It might also turn out more black and latino voters.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 17, 2016, 08:32:31 am
Gary Johnson (Libertarian Party) and Jill Stein (Greens) haven't made the cut for the 1st debate on Monday week, 26/9.  That would be good news for Hillary.  She would want to go head to head with Trump for as long as possible and wouldn't want precious time to be eaten up by Johnson.  She also wants to consolidate the anti-Trump vote, so she hardly wants Stein and Johnson to have the spotlight.  Trump had said that Johnson should be invited, no doubt because he could then make it a true 3 ring circus.  But neither candidate influenced this decision.  It was made by the independent body which runs the debates simply because Stein and Johnson didn't meet the requirement of averaging 15% or more in the polls.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on September 19, 2016, 12:31:04 pm
http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/hillary-clinton-in-big-trouble-with-pollacoaster-set-to-put-trump-out-in-front-20160919-grj8cc.html

Hillary's bid looks about to be Trumped. Watching this unbelievable event slowly unfold is like watching a slow motion train wreck.  :o
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 19, 2016, 01:52:59 pm
Worrying, but it's not yet time to see Dr Nitschke.  The pneumonia issue obviously had an impact as well as the 'basket of deplorables' comment (although I can't understand how any moderate would be offended given that White Supremacists and other wingnuts well deserve the label).  The health issue would obviously abate if Clinton continues to campaign hard and Trump better keep on using his antibacterial handwashes or else he'll cop it too.  Perhaps biological weapons, i.e. babies held out by proud Trump supporters, might bring him undone.

But current polling is probably of little interest anyway. The 1st debate takes place next Monday.  To say it's an important event is downplaying its significance.  It's going to be a monster.  It will be just about the most watched event ever.  Even Americans who aren't interested in politics will tune in to see what Trump does.  If Trump faceplants, end of game.  If he does well, end of game.  The question is, what metric will swinging voters use to assess his performance?  If he brings a low content but highly-colourful game, will style trump content?  Perhaps debating and political experts will give the nod to Clinton while swinging voters will give it to Trump.

The difficulty for Clinton is that she may only get one shot at it.  If Trump does well in the 1st debate, he may well refuse to turn up to the last 2.  He's already laying the groundwork, saying that Anderson Cooper, the CNN presenter who is to co-moderate the 2nd debate, is biased against him and should be dumped.  I wouldn't even exclude the possibility of pulling out of the 1st debate if he thinks he's doing well enough but I suspect that depriving the public of that spectacle might create a backlash.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 19, 2016, 02:20:46 pm
The NYC pressure-cooker bombing might have some impact.  Looks like the FBI is fairly advanced in its investigation and we may well know more about the culprits and their motives quite soon.  As there's been no claim of responsibility from ISIS or any other terrorist organisation, it's possible the culprits were right-wing terrorists.  That would create an interesting twist that may create problems for Trump.  On the other hand, ISIS claimed a separate knife attack was down to one of its 'soldiers'.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 19, 2016, 10:20:51 pm
Damn, the suspect is a naturalised Afghan.  Trump's roll continues, even if he had no formal links to M/E terrorists.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 27, 2016, 10:03:26 am
It's here!  1st debate starts in an hour.  Trump is tipped to be boring Trump to be reassuring to uncommitted voters.  Will he be able to stay that way for 90 minutes without breaks?  Will Clinton be able to press his buttons?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 27, 2016, 10:23:44 am
It's here!  1st debate starts in an hour.  Trump is tipped to be boring Trump to be reassuring to uncommitted voters.  Will he be able to stay that way for 90 minutes without breaks?  Will Clinton be able to press his buttons?

No chance. She will get personal and he will get personal then Trump will be called a bully.

Hillary is obviously worried about this hence all her acting classes she has been doing in the lead up, not sure anything can prepare her for what Trump is going to bring?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 27, 2016, 10:31:47 am
To an extent, that's true.  But she's about as wonkish as any candidate in history and took days off to prepare.  I'm sure she has internalised a flow chart of what she will do depending on which Trump shows up.  And that chart will deal with many variations.  It's like she's Deep Blue and Trump, being far from a chess Grand Master, will find it hard to come up with something unanticipated.  The flipside is that she may lock in to the chess game too much and fail to warm up her image with the public.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 27, 2016, 10:43:02 am
Interesting pre-game question: will the audience obey the direction to keep quiet?  Pundits think a quiet audience will rob Trump of energy.  He loves playing off cheers, laughter and even boos.  But given Trump has shown scant regard for other political conventions, it wouldn't be a shock if his campaign organises a noisy audience.  Will the debate organisers be able to eject noisy audience members? Will such a spectacle derail the solemnity of the debate and work to Trump's advantage?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 27, 2016, 11:06:17 am
I'm not going to do a running commentary but most US News sites will, for example http://m.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/presidential-debate-live-updates_us_57e99692e4b082aad9b63241 (http://m.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/presidential-debate-live-updates_us_57e99692e4b082aad9b63241).
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 27, 2016, 11:22:57 am
Trump straight on the attack lol. Hillary trying to remain calm.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 27, 2016, 11:28:07 am
He seems to be a sniffing a fair bit and drinking lots of water.  Is he coming down with something?  That would be ironic.

Agree he's on the attack and she's on the defensive, particularly over NAFTA.  Disappointing.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 27, 2016, 11:34:45 am
Trump destroying her. Lester doing a better job grilling Trump than Hillary.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 27, 2016, 11:55:48 am
She landed a few blows over his business dealings and tax while nipping in the bud his attempt to switch the debate to her emails.  Good to see her stick to an apology over emails without blameshifting.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on September 27, 2016, 12:06:40 pm
I heard one Republican say something along the lines of Trump only having to come up with one grammatically correct sentence to be considered a winner.  Clinton, on the other hand, has to articulate and defend policies.

I'm more than happy to not watch/listen to either of them.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 27, 2016, 12:34:06 pm
Surely, Trump's incoherent waffling over his birther campaign and whether he was for or against the Iraq war has been bad for him.  Clinton's laugh and Oh Boy! response got a good laugh.  Trump's early energy has ebbed.  The question will be whether the public made up its mind in the first half hour or whether Trump's lack of stamina will be the issue.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on September 27, 2016, 12:41:36 pm
The general consensus is Clinton won, primarily because all Trump could do was attack her and not answer questions. He kept cutting off Clinton and the moderator in a bullying manner but wouldn't answer questions.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on September 27, 2016, 12:44:55 pm
I heard one Republican say something along the lines of Trump only having to come up with one grammatically correct sentence to be considered a winner.  Clinton, on the other hand, has to articulate and defend policies.

I'm more than happy to not watch/listen to either of them.

The whole saga is grotesque.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 27, 2016, 12:49:38 pm
She will get personal and he will get personal then Trump will be called a bully.

Nailed it.

The "bully" line is getting a big run already.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on September 27, 2016, 12:53:02 pm
Clinton won....

Fox news folk are saying as much, and if that's the case she's a clear winner. ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on September 27, 2016, 12:56:45 pm
Nailed it.

The "bully" line is getting a big run already.

You mean like the Birther debate.

When Trump talks of those poor African Americans living in poverty, he is talking to white trash likes it's a boast.

They both have a problem, neither of them can make America great again without hurting allies. Trump is blatant about it, Clinton is political.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 27, 2016, 12:59:32 pm
MBB, not sure you could say she got personal.  He's running for President and his record is a valid issue.  What he did regarding the birther campaign, for instance, was part of his run for the Presidency.  What he has done in business is relevant too.  He boasts about it as proof of his ability and the flipside is also relevant.  She didn't make any truly personal comments.  She didn't talk about his hands or his failed marriages, for instance.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on September 27, 2016, 01:00:21 pm
Clinton won....

Fox news folk are saying as much, and if that's the case she's a clear winner. ;)

Lods the problem is they poll people who watch the whole debate, Trump's supporters probably turned off after 10 minutes so the polls may not reflect the majority.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on September 27, 2016, 01:04:13 pm
Lods the problem is they poll people who watch the whole debate, Trump's supporters probably turned off after 10 minutes so the polls may not reflect the majority.

It's not the polled folk....it's the Fox commentators.
They'ré clearly disappointed.

If they're finding negatives, then he didn't do very well. ;)
In the hours to come they'll find positives but at the moment they're struggling to find his good moments.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 27, 2016, 01:05:42 pm
To an extent, LP, that ignores the issue.  Those who don't watch the whole debate will absorb the concensus about the outcome of the debate.  That may change votes, whatever the truth might be.  That's why "the Spin Room" after debates is so important.  Proxies try to spin their candidate's performance to try to win the "5th quarter".
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on September 27, 2016, 01:09:34 pm
To an extent, LP, that ignores the issue.  Those who don't watch the whole debate will absorb the concensus about the outcome of the debate.  That may change votes, whatever the truth might be.  That's why "the Spin Room" after debates is so important.  Proxies try to spin their candidate's performance to try to win the "5th quarter".

It's not the polled folk....it's the Fox commentators.
They'ré clearly disappointed.

If they're finding negatives, then he didn't do very well. ;)
In the hours to come they'll find positives but at the moment they're struggling to find his good moments.

Agree with both of you, the media is smashing Trump.

But I think that is from a sense of guilt as Trump is the monster they have created, the US media have become Frankenstein and the monster will turn on them!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 27, 2016, 01:12:15 pm
MBB, not sure you could say she got personal.  He's running for President and his record is a valid issue.  What he did regarding the birther campaign, for instance, was part of his run for the Presidency.  What he has done in business is relevant too.  He boasts about it as proof of his ability and the flipside is also relevant.  She didn't make any truly personal comments.  She didn't talk about his hands or his failed marriages, for instance.

I wanted her to get more personal with Trump, she need the moderator to come to her aid a couple of times. My problem is whenever Trump holds her to account he's a bully.

Trump pretty much controlled the whole debate, he dominated the start and then side tracked himself a few times getting agitated at Lester. Clinton read from a piece of paper and was uninspiring as usual.

I don't think any Americans would have changed their minds after what took place today.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 27, 2016, 01:15:00 pm
Horrible moment for Trump: Hillary pondered whether Trump paid no federal tax and didn't contribute to the military, schools etc., he said that would show he was smart.  Another bad moment: when Hillary talked about him stiffing small businessmen who did work for him and taking advantage of bankruptcy laws, he said it showed he was a smart businessman. 

We won't see them, but his comments will be replayed endlessly in Clinton ads.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 27, 2016, 01:18:17 pm
Clinton's strongest moment was when she slapped down Trump about his sexism but she already has those voters locked up.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 27, 2016, 01:18:46 pm
double post
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 27, 2016, 01:25:04 pm
Hillary's worst moment was when she said the private email server was a mistake and Trump rammed home the point that it wasn't a mistake and that it was on purpose.
Highlighting her and her party's corruption against Sanders.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 27, 2016, 01:39:55 pm
One reason the debate result matters is that voting is underway right now in some states.  Those early voters might just send in their ballots now if they think they've seen enough.  Playing catch-up might not be possible.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 27, 2016, 01:51:20 pm
CNN's poll suggests Clinton won 62% to 27%, with the caveat that the 500 debate watchers were somewhat skewed towards Democratic voters.  With CNN's focus group of 20 uncommitted voters, Clinton won 18 to 2.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on September 27, 2016, 02:40:40 pm
I was very surprised, I had thought it was Clinton who would look weary and fatigued.

But watching and listening to the debate it seemed to me it was Trump who looked to the be struggling physically and mentally. He looked flustered, stuttered, tired and couldn't keep on track, he reminded me of an elderly relative with the early signs of Alzheimer's.

He looked less competent.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on September 27, 2016, 02:56:17 pm
I was very surprised, I had thought it was Clinton who would look weary and fatigued.

But watching and listening to the debate it seemed to me it was Trump who looked to the be struggling physically and mentally. He looked flustered, stuttered, tired and couldn't keep on track, he reminded me of an elderly relative with the early signs of Alzheimer's.

He looked less competent.

I had the same thought LP.  It would be interesting to compare his current speech patterns with those from 5-10 years ago.  Of course, it's entirely possible that he has always struggled with the English language.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 27, 2016, 02:59:52 pm
That's the ironic thing about Trump's attacks on Clinton's stamina.  She has consistently shown doggedness and resilience.  The GOP has been after her for ages.  The Benghazi committee grilled her for 11 hours without any success.  That's just about the harshest test you could set for someone.  On the other hand, Tony Schwartz, the ghost writer who wrote The Art Of The Deal, has made it clear Trump has a very short attention span.  She ground him into the dirt over the last hour.  One commentator also noted he was guzzling water like a man with a hangover while Clinton didn't touch a drop.  Some people regard drinking water as a sign of weakness.  I'm not one of them, but some think that way.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 27, 2016, 03:01:08 pm
Tsk, tsk, DJC, don't you know Trump has all the best words ...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 27, 2016, 04:06:32 pm
I think people see what they want to see. Hillary was terrible.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on September 27, 2016, 04:09:00 pm
I think people see what they want to see. Hillary was terrible.

They certainly do.

Schwarzenegger, Malthouse, Trump. Quite a triumvirate.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 27, 2016, 04:16:45 pm
I predicted a trump victory months ago and was mocked, told to look at the polls. Funny they haven't  been brought up in a while, wonder why? Not that they matter, Hillary will lose the election because she's  a terrible candidate.  Americans want change so why would they elect the same party with a vastly inferior corrupt leader?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on September 27, 2016, 04:30:12 pm
Nice article from Tony Wright in the Age:

Quote
... let's not try to judge the debate between Trump and Hillary Clinton from any halfway rational position.

That would require us to announce that Clinton won the thing because she mostly made sense, understood matters of policy, maintained her cool and kept a straight face in the presence of low-camp burlesque.

We're not in that universe any more.

Call a win for Clinton and you'd be confirming to Trump's supporters what to them is the obvious: Clinton is a more polished performer who knows her debating stuff ... because she's a member of the elite!

Until recently, the definition of elite was "a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society". Just the select group from which might emerge a worthy president, you might imagine.

But that was then. Elites in the moron-Trump era are to be despised because, umm, they're superior.

As for Clinton's frequent calls during the debate for the fact checkers, who needs facts when Donald Trump is frothing?

Let's just do what Donald does and tell a bare-faced lie.

He won.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/donald-trump-won-and-hillary-clinton-lost-thats-a-lie-but-it-suits-the-times-20160927-grpiec.html
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 27, 2016, 04:40:27 pm
OMG, what about that face that Trump pulled towards the end of the debate?  It looked like the pissed-off supervillain face we've all seen in Bond films when the baddy realises things are going down the toilet.  Maybe he was auditioning for the next Bond film.  If so, he blitzed the audition.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on September 27, 2016, 04:44:45 pm
I think people see what they want to see......

That's true ;)
:D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on September 27, 2016, 05:09:21 pm
I predicted a trump victory months ago and was mocked, told to look at the polls. Funny they haven't  been brought up in a while, wonder why? Not that they matter, Hillary will lose the election because she's  a terrible candidate.  Americans want change so why would they elect the same party with a vastly inferior corrupt leader?

Have a look at the polls MBB ;)

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/us/elections/polls.html

The polls analysis gives Clinton a 70% chance of winning but I guess she could still lose . . . if the Republicans dump Trump.

And I just have to share a mate's take on the debate:

Quote
Just spent 90 minutes that I'll never get back watching these two, one a congenital liar and the other a narcissistic maniac unable to complete a sentence in English. Once the nuclear!!! The cyber is really bad!!! We shooda took their oil. Underwhelming in the extreme but Trump in a galaxy of his own as a nightmare. Clinton is just a regular nightmare.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on September 27, 2016, 05:23:25 pm
Nice article from Tony Wright in the Age:

I wonder though whether Hillary or Trump has "emerged from the ranks of the elite" or whether they are both lackeys of elite groupings?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on September 27, 2016, 05:36:10 pm
Are you guys really arguing who won a debate? 

People are going to give a biased answer based on who they wanted to win. 

What a farcical democratic process.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 27, 2016, 05:40:06 pm
That's not right at all.  Even the White Supremecist site, Stormfront, gave the points to Clinton: http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/even-stormfront-thinks-hillary-clinton-won-the-debate-1787121521 (http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/even-stormfront-thinks-hillary-clinton-won-the-debate-1787121521).
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on September 27, 2016, 05:49:11 pm
Are you guys really arguing who won a debate? 

People are going to give a biased answer based on who they wanted to win. 

What a farcical democratic process.

I don't have an opinion on who won Thry, but the anti-Democrat media are giving it to Clinton. Perhaps it's a double bluff  ;)

As to the process, I have to keep reminding myself that the US democratic model is a product of the 18th century and is hopelessly outdated.  Of course, ours is a more modern 19th century product.  It's just as well because we are equally conservative when it comes to changing the constitution.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: laj on September 27, 2016, 06:27:28 pm
I predicted a trump victory months ago and was mocked, told to look at the polls. Funny they haven't  been brought up in a while, wonder why? Not that they matter, Hillary will lose the election because she's  a terrible candidate.  Americans want change so why would they elect the same party with a vastly inferior corrupt leader?

Polls are up and down and unreliable unlike here. The only consistent thing is majority if them have Clinton on front by an average of 3%. Not only that it comes down to polls in individual states as states there have a different amount of delegates. If you lead in California that's worth 55 delegates, Hilary is way in front there, where if you lead in a smaller state it might only be worth 5 delegates. On that basis Hilary is actually well in front.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 28, 2016, 01:32:31 am
Interesting challenge for Trump.  Merely dangling the issue of Bill Clinton's indiscretions won't do much for him.  He'll have to do it directly and explain how this taints Hillary.  A direct attack may well be fatal for him.  Not only is he likely to pull the roof down on himself, it would actually allow Hillary to gain sympathy as she was cheated on and not the cheater.  To suggest she failed women because she stood behind Bill rather than his accusers verges on bizarre. I'd love to know if any women, feminist or not, sympathise with the likes of Genifer Flowers who made money from boasting about having an affair with Bill.  On the other hand, Trump also cheated on his wives, so how does this issue help Trump?

The more serious attack would be to go after the allegations made by Paula Yates and Juanita Broadderick.  The latter alleged rape but provided a sworn statement that there was never any rape before recanting the statement.  More importantly, Trump has faced rape and sexual assault claims too.  An ex-wife alleged rape in divorce proceedings even if she has tried to fudge that subsequently.  The wife of a businessman he was dealing with alleged he groped her.  And most amazingly, he faces a civil suit in which the plaintiff alleges he raped her when she was a child of 14 or so.  He's playing around with explosives.

I'd imagine that Clinton will be quick to nail him about the child rape case if he opens up the issue.  No doubt, Clinton doesn't want to go there first as it would be the ultimate in negative mudslinging, would open up Bill's issues and the case may not have much to it.  But if he attacks her with a half-baked allegation that she should answer for Bill's sins, especially if he peddles unproven rape allegations, then it would be fair game.  I suspect that most voters would say then that he brought it on himself.  Imagine Hillary asking him if he did rape a child after tying her to a bed at a party thrown by a convicted paedophile and whether he threatened that she would regret it if she told anyone.  What the hell could he say?  That would be an amazing moment.

I reckon if you're standing in petrol, playing with matches isn't a good idea.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on September 28, 2016, 09:31:14 am
Odd spot in today's Age:

Quote
The Oregonian newspaper, which serves a US state that has legitimised cannabis, offered, as a pre-presidential debate service,  and experts' guide to the nine best 'weed strains' to get voters through the Clinton-Trump televised stoush, offering the best options to reduce nausea and stress.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on September 28, 2016, 09:38:20 am
It's good to see that the ABC's News 24 has got its priorities right.  Live coverage of a rambling Trump was just cut short in order to cover a presser by Sydney's Josh Kennedy.  The latter certainly spoke more clearly and made more sense, not that Trump had set the bar all that high.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 28, 2016, 09:52:01 am
Clinton team preps for Trump’s Bill attack (http://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/donald-trump-strategy-228811), Politico.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on September 28, 2016, 10:37:46 am
The Clinton team only needs to remember the old saying, 'Give him enough rope and he'll hang himself.' And he is doing it rather well.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 29, 2016, 08:36:03 pm
Some of us compared Trump with Fascists such as Hitler and Mussolini.  But this book review regarding Hitler: Ascent 1889-1939 shows how different they are: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/books/hitler-ascent-volker-ullrich.html?_r=0 (http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/books/hitler-ascent-volker-ullrich.html?_r=0).
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on September 29, 2016, 10:21:34 pm
Some of us compared Trump with Fascists such as Hitler and Mussolini.  But this book review regarding Hitler: Ascent 1889-1939 shows how different they are: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/books/hitler-ascent-volker-ullrich.html?_r=0 (http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/books/hitler-ascent-volker-ullrich.html?_r=0).

Guess who's back!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on September 30, 2016, 09:35:55 am
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2666244-colin-kaepernick-comments-on-donald-trump-hillary-clinton-presidential-debate?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

Quote
"To me, it was embarrassing to watch that these are our two candidates," Kaepernick said, via Yamiche Alcindor of the New York Times. "Both are proven liars, and it almost seems like they’re trying to debate who's less racist. And at this point, talking with one of my friends, it was, you have to pick the lesser of two evils, but in the end, it’s still evil."

Quote
"You have Hillary, who's called black teens or black kids 'superpredators.' You have Donald Trump, who's openly racist," Kaepernick said, per Richardson. "We have a presidential candidate who has deleted emails and done things illegally. ... That doesn't make sense to me because if that was any other person, you'd be in prison. So what is this country really standing for?"
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on September 30, 2016, 05:49:06 pm
Good on him for his national anthem protests.  As the ESPN doco on OJ made clear, OJ turned his back on other black Americans in the hope he could transcend race and cement his celebrity.  Given Kaepernick's current battles to prove himself as a starting QB, it's hardly the perfect time to make a stand on Black Lives Matter.  That makes his stand even braver. 

The way he equates Hillary and Trump is simplistic, however.  If he can't see that Hillary has done a lot more for blacks in America than Trump, he hasn't done much research. 

The criticism over the superpedator comment is interesting.  It's like opening up a 20 year old time capsule.  In the 80s and 90s, the crime rate was high and in particular the public was transfixed by drug cartel murders and gang violence including drive-by shootings - Cripps vs Bloods style.  Beverly Hills Cops, Licence to Kill, General Noriega being toppled and shanghied to the US, Clear and Present Danger, the War on Drugs, Colombian cartels, Mafia drug trade were all part of a fertile breeding ground for the public's demand for tough law and order solutions.  This was the era of Zero Tolerance policing in New York.

The law and order issue became a club used by Republicans to beat up Democrats.  Democrats had to show they were tough on crime to satiate a public with a hunger for ever tougher penalties.  Michael Dukakis was on the receiving end in the 1988 presidential campaign against Bush 41.  Willie Horton, a black serving a jail term for murder, was released on a weekend furlough program while Dukakis was Governor of Massachusetts.  Horton promptly raped a woman and went on the run.  This became a major issue in the campaign, with a 'revolving doors' ad proving very effective. 

In January 1992, it was Bill Clinton's turn to be put on the spot.  A black man, Ricky Ray Rector, was on death row in Arkansas.  He had killed a man in a nightclub and then agreed to surrender to a police officer before shooting him in the back and killing him.  He turned the gun on himself and blew out part of his brain but survived.  Death penalty opponents argued that he had become mentally retarded as a result.  Indeed, after eating his last meal, he told the guards who would take him off for the lethal injection that he was going to leave his Pecan pie on his tray for later.  Bill Clinton was Governor at the time and could have commuted the sentence on this ground but instead he returned to oversee the execution.  This is credited with toughening up his image and paving the way for his election later that year.  As I say, the public had an insatiable appetite for being tough on crime.

Fast forward to 1994 and the Violent Crime and Control Law Enforcement Act was signed into law by President Bill Clinton.  This was a very popular piece of legislation at the time.  It was written by now Vice President Joe Biden.  Bernie Sanders voted for it.  It contained a raft of measures, some good and some bad.  Amongst the good was a ban on assault weapons including semi-automatic firearms.  Unfortunately, George Dubya let that lapse in 2004.  Additional classes of people banned from owning guns were added.  New crimes were put on the books regarding hate, sex, and gang-related crimes and States were required to keep registers of sex offenders.  On the other hand, the death penalty was expanded to include terrorism, drive-by shootings and deaths during carjackings amongst other offences.  A 3-strikes life imprisonment sentence was introduced and the Act provided more funds for more jails. 

As First Lady, Hillary Clinton supported the Bill and made her comments about needing to bring superpredators to heel, saying they killed and harmed children without empathy or remorse.  The Crimes Bill has had had a major role in the rapid rise in the prison population in the US and no doubt a disproportionately heavy burden has been imposed on blacks as a result.  In my view, the 3 strikes policy was an abomination. Recently, Obama has set about pardoning prisoners who were serving long sentences for non-violent drug offending.  I think the "War on Drugs" has been a disaster.

Bill Clinton has since expressed his remorse for the deleterious rise in the incarceration rate and Hillary Clinton has also apologised for the superpredator rhetoric although she makes it clear she was referring to violent drug bosses. 

To me, this unfortunate history needs to be seen as a product of its time.  Being tough on crime then in the US was very much like being tough on people smugglers and 'queue jumpers' is now in Australia.  No doubt future generations will be disgusted by the use of immigration detention.  No doubt there are many politicians on both sides of the aisle who are also disgusted by it too but the sad fact is that the ALP has no chance of winning government unless it is as tough as the Liberals.

Hillary has certainly offset her minor role in that period by her work in many other areas which have been of benefit to the black community.  She has embraced the black community's concerns over police shootings and the Flint poisonings.  That's why the black community has rallied behind her.  Oddly enough, Bernie Sanders did little to court black voters.  Like Hillary, he copped his fair share of BLM protesters given his vote for the Crimes Bill.  Unlike Hillary, though, he did little to embrace black voters other than saying they'd benefit from his promises to improve equality via economic reforms.

On the other hand, Trump merely offers a rerun of the Crimes Bill.  He'll be tough on crime. He paints a dark picture of blacks living in the middle of a homicidal frenzy who are in desperate need of hard policing. He'll support stop and frisk to be applied on the basis of profiling and he'll throw his support behind the police.  No wonder he's struggling to break the 2% barrier with black Americans in polls.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 01, 2016, 12:42:51 am
Star Trek has denounced Trump as being antithetical to the Star Trek philosophy and endorsed Hillary: https://www.facebook.com/TrekAgainstTrumpOfficial/posts/887685388029999 (https://www.facebook.com/TrekAgainstTrumpOfficial/posts/887685388029999).  Quite a broad representation of the 4 "franchises".  Sadly, neither William Shatner nor Patrick Stewart signed on, but neither can vote in the US which is probably the explanation for that.  In a bizarre twist, Ted Cruz tried to claim Captain Kirk as a Republican but Shatner said he couldn't even vote in the US as he's Canadian.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 01, 2016, 08:45:40 am
Trump getting totally sidetracked over former Miss Universe Contestant Alicia Machado.
Hillary set him up in the debate and he's taken the bait and won't let it go.

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/donald-trump-attacks-alicia-machado-yet-again-overnight-tweetstorm-n657361

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 01, 2016, 11:45:39 am
For a guy who claims he always wins, he's coming across as a major loser.  Clinton has clearly baited him and he falls for it every time. It's like watching a slightly-built woman getting a big bear to dance to some music.  If she can control Trump that easily, how will he do against Putin and his ilk?  The problem for him is that his strength is playing to crowds but generally international diplomacy is conducted away from cameras and crowds.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on October 03, 2016, 09:20:24 am
Trump's 18 years of avoiding tax will hurt.  Giuliani's defiant defence of Trump's tax avoidance will cost votes too.  The rusted on supporters won't care but the swinging voters do pay tax and they will be p1ssed off that Trump has avoided his obligations.



Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on October 03, 2016, 09:47:58 am
For a guy who claims he always wins, he's coming across as a major loser.  Clinton has clearly baited him and he falls for it every time. It's like watching a slightly-built woman getting a big bear to dance to some music.  If she can control Trump that easily, how will he do against Putin and his ilk?  The problem for him is that his strength is playing to crowds but generally international diplomacy is conducted away from cameras and crowds.

I'm also pretty concerned as to just how Hillary will go about "controlling Putin" tbh.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: sandsmere on October 03, 2016, 09:55:02 am
I'm also pretty concerned as to just how Hillary will go about "controlling Putin" tbh.

She won't control Putin.
Whichever one of these 2 ridiculous candidates gets in won't control Putin. Or his Chinese counterpart for that matter.

Uncle Sam will be in a sorry old state by the end of the next 4 years.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on October 03, 2016, 10:20:45 am
I'm also pretty concerned as to just how Hillary will go about "controlling Putin" tbh.

Clinton would be more likely to follow advice from the National Security Council.  Trump, as the self-acknowledged smartest person in the room, would be more likely to follow his instincts.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 03, 2016, 11:33:33 am
I don't know if Trump believes his own rhetoric.
His strength is diversion...when he's troubled by a topic he'll switch it to something else, often a personal attack.
While for the most part he is full of bluster and bravado.....his body language sometimes seems to me to be defensive as if covering up an insecurity.

Yes, He's been successful in some areas of life....but how much of that has been due to the advisers and people he's hired to perform specific tasks.
The hope would be that faced with a national crisis there would be enough cool heads around him to make a rational decision....but there's the danger.
Some of the folk he's likely to pick for certain jobs aren't that inspiring in terms of rational decision making. While they may be able to successfully manage a city or a state... international politics is a different ball game.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on October 03, 2016, 11:36:49 am
.................................

Yes, He's been successful in some areas of life....but how much of that has been due to the advisers and people he's hired to perform specific tasks.
..............................................

And how much is due to his old man's fortune ? Money makes money after a while.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on October 03, 2016, 11:45:00 am
She won't control Putin.
Whichever one of these 2 ridiculous candidates gets in won't control Putin. Or his Chinese counterpart for that matter.

Uncle Sam will be in a sorry old state by the end of the next 4 years.

I fear you will be proved right S !

And we may well get dragged in.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 04, 2016, 02:38:41 pm
Trump's had a horrible week and he desperately needs some help from his friends to change momentum.  Sure enough, Assange is happy to act as Putin's puppet.  He is trying to organise a press conference in Berlin to release leaks against Clinton.  He had intended to do it from the balcony of the Ecuadorean Embassy but he changed his mind as he fears an assassination attempt.  He released a document that suggested that Clinton had asked back in 2010 whether they could just "drone him".

The press conference is scheduled for tonight, our time.

https://www.cnet.com/au/news/julian-assange-speech-berlin-due-to-specific-information-wikileaks-hillary-clinton-drone-strike/ (https://www.cnet.com/au/news/julian-assange-speech-berlin-due-to-specific-information-wikileaks-hillary-clinton-drone-strike/).

If he's wary of assassination attempts, maybe that's the reason he seems to confine himself to stuff that embarrasses the US.  If he embarrassed Putin, not only might he be assassinated but also it would be done in such as way that his death would be as painful and lingering as possible.  Alexander Litvinenko was poisoned in 2006 in England with Polonium 210 which left him with fatal acute radiation syndrome after defecting.  And journalists who criticise Putin in Russia seem to die of unnatural causes at an alarming rate.  Being a lapdog for Putin and his hackers is a far safer option.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on October 04, 2016, 03:29:19 pm
Trump's had a horrible week and he desperately needs some help from his friends to change momentum.  Sure enough, Assange is happy to act as Putin's puppet.  He is trying to organise a press conference in Berlin to release leaks against Clinton.  He had intended to do it from the balcony of the Ecuadorean Embassy but he changed his mind as he fears an assassination attempt.  He released a document that suggested that Clinton had asked back in 2010 whether they could just "drone him".

So he'll support the guy who is happy to imply that if you've got nukes you should use them!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 04, 2016, 08:19:32 pm
Assange is hell bent on disrupting Hillary's campaign.
Trump hasn't offended him.
He's operating at a base personal level.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 04, 2016, 09:19:43 pm
Wonder if he's going to pursue the vendetta by continuing to stoke the conspiracy theory over Seth Rich's murder.  Mr. Rich was a low-level DNC employee who was killed in the streets in an apparent robbery attempt.  Right-wing conspiracy nuts have tried to tie the Clintons to an amazing number of deaths and they theorised the Clintons must have killed him over DNC leaks to Wikileaks.  However, he had a very low level position which the DNC says wouldn't have given him access to those emails.  But Assange fanned the flames by saying that a Wikileaks source re the DNC dump had been murdered.  If he tries to beat this story up, he better have some good evidence to support the claim.  As Lods says, he appears to harbour a personal vendetta towards Clinton and I, at least, would be sceptical if he makes an unsupported claim that Rich was murdered over the DNC dump.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 04, 2016, 10:11:14 pm
He says he won't do it today but will do it later - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3821062/Is-moment-tank-Hillary-s-campaign-Julian-Assange-set-speak-WikiLeaks-conference-promising-release-damaging-information-Clinton.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3821062/Is-moment-tank-Hillary-s-campaign-Julian-Assange-set-speak-WikiLeaks-conference-promising-release-damaging-information-Clinton.html).
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 05, 2016, 10:25:40 am
How funny!  Right-wing wingnuts were convinced that Assange was going to follow through on his teaser that he was about to kill off Clinton's campaign.  They donned their tinfoil hats and tuned in to the broadcast expecting to experience that rush that fans feel when the final siren goes to confirm their team's grand final victory.  Instead, Assange trolled the world. 

Assange used his big moment to spruik how brilliant Wikileaks has been and encourage contributions.  In the middle of this, he said he wouldn't be making a big release of Clinton documents when it was 3am in the US! 

Alex Jones did a live broadcast on his Infowars channel and you can see in the following clip what happened in wingnut homes across the US.  He exploded and agreed with his offsider that they'd been "Wikirolled" and concluded that Assange had nothing.  And Jones showed why he's the king of conspiracists, launching a conspiracy theory that Clinton had done a deal to set Assange free if he buried the incriminating evidence.  Assange has sold out and Wikileaks is dead, apparently!

[flash=200,200]https://youtu.be/2aDWWyWc_Lc[/flash]
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on October 05, 2016, 05:42:08 pm
How funny!  Right-wing wingnuts were convinced that Assange was going to follow through on his teaser that he was about to kill off Clinton's campaign.  They donned their tinfoil hats and tuned in to the broadcast expecting to experience that rush that fans feel when the final siren goes to confirm their team's grand final victory.  Instead, Assange trolled the world. 

Assange used his big moment to spruik how brilliant Wikileaks has been and encourage contributions.  In the middle of this, he said he wouldn't be making a big release of Clinton documents when it was 3am in the US! 

Alex Jones did a live broadcast on his Infowars channel and you can see in the following clip what happened in wingnut homes across the US.  He exploded and agreed with his offsider that they'd been "Wikirolled" and concluded that Assange had nothing.  And Jones showed why he's the king of conspiracists, launching a conspiracy theory that Clinton had done a deal to set Assange free if he buried the incriminating evidence.  Assange has sold out and Wikileaks is dead, apparently!

[flash=200,200]https://youtu.be/2aDWWyWc_Lc[/flash]

Well put. Alex Jones, sheesh, what a knob... though I do like your term 'wingnut'.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 06, 2016, 11:10:42 am
Vice presidential debate was a draw....winner depended on which side you favour by the looks of the commentary ;D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 06, 2016, 11:57:41 am
The majority view is that Pence won but maybe that this won't be much help to Trump.

First, it was only a VP debate, so Pence would have needed to win big to help Trump and no one thinks he did that.  On the flip side, Kaine mostly needed to avoid unforced errors which could be used to beat Clinton over the head and he succeeded in staying safe. 

Secondly, he won the debate by refusing to admit that Trump had said certain things or had certain policies.  That blunted Kaine's attack as you need to get that concession before you ask the opponent to defend that statement or policy.  He did a fine job of boasting of his own conservative credentials but Trump is not a conservative of Pence's ilk.  Pence didn't do his prospects for a run in 2020 any harm at all.

Thirdly, Kaine was clearly aiming his attack at Trump rather than trying to disqualify Pence, so the Clinton camp is less concerned about who won the debate as a separate entity than how it affected the attitudes of swing voters towards Trump.  That's much harder to assess as a discrete issue in opinion polls.  Perhaps the only part of the debate which will feature in a negative ad will be when Pence gave up an unforced error in referring to "whipping out that Mexican thing" in a dismissive way which adds insult to injury in the Latino community.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on October 06, 2016, 12:22:05 pm
Vice presidential debate was a draw....winner depended on which side you favour by the looks of the commentary ;D

I like Kaine but it wasn't close at all.

The lunatic left are already trying to say Trump is jealous of how good Pence went.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 06, 2016, 12:50:41 pm
I like Kaine but it wasn't close at all.

The lunatic left are already trying to say Trump is jealous of how good Pence went.

The lunatic centre agrees ;)  ;D
Came across as lots more presidential than Trump
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on October 06, 2016, 02:14:57 pm
Clinton's attack ads are highlighting how many times Pence tried to defend Trump by denying that he made particular comments.  It was quite comedic seeing footage of Trump saying exactly what Pence said he didn't say.

Of course, it won't influence the rusted on Trump supporters and Hillary haters but it may convince swinging voters not to vote for Trump.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 06, 2016, 02:30:16 pm
Clinton's attack ads are highlighting how many times Pence tried to defend Trump by denying that he made particular comments.  It was quite comedic seeing footage of Trump saying exactly what Pence said he didn't say.

Of course, it won't influence the rusted on Trump supporters and Hillary haters but it may convince swinging voters not to vote for Trump.

Any positive effect will be cancelled out by Kaine's interruptions...nil-nil draw.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on October 06, 2016, 03:05:02 pm
Any positive effect will be cancelled out by Kaine's interruptions...nil-nil draw.

That's true Lod's but the audience was relatively small.  More folk will see the ads, particularly in states that Trump has to win.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 08, 2016, 11:11:45 am
A bouncer straight at his head.....let's see how he plays this one!

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/trump-apologises-after-shocking-audio-emerges-of-lewd-2005-comments-about-women/ar-BBx9aIF?li=AAgfYrC
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 08, 2016, 12:05:20 pm
Yep, a good example of rape culture.  Reminds me of those pick-up artists who were to give seminars in Aus.  They boasted that in Japan they'd go up to young women in the streets, grab their heads and move them down to the crotch area.  They advocated taking what you wanted.  There was such an outcry that their visas were cancelled on moral grounds. 

Can you imagine what Bill Cosby and Trump would have talked about at the turn of the century? Yes, the difference is that Cosby is now in court over his brilliant methods of taking what he wanted.  But remember that Trump is currently being sued over child rape.  That complaint details his sense of entitlement and invulnerability which resonates with his words on tape.  That complaint is the absolute king hit which awaits him.  Hillary might unleash it or the media might unleash it as it doesn't seem such an outlier now.

Trump's "apology" was a pathetic non-apology, saying he apologises IF anyone was offended.  He has to deliver a real apology over this before Sunday's debate or he'll be called on to do so there.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on October 08, 2016, 12:11:00 pm
I guess it's too much to ask that the requirements for Presidential candidacy be tightened and upgraded so that somebody like Trump doesn't run in the future ? Rather tired of putting up with this mind-polluting crap, wasting months of people's time.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on October 08, 2016, 07:04:06 pm
I guess it's too much to ask that the requirements for Presidential candidacy be tightened and upgraded so that somebody like Trump doesn't run in the future ? Rather tired of putting up with this mind-polluting crap, wasting months of people's time.

Unfortunately yes it is  :(

I'm not surprised by his boast that he used his status to obtain sexual gratification and demean women.  What a pathetic grub!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 08, 2016, 07:17:41 pm
Trump signalling in his "apology" that he's about to unleash personally on the Clintons.
His form of attack will be to try and prove they are "grubbier" than him.

Big task!
It's about to get even more unedifying :(
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Bear on October 09, 2016, 01:17:07 am
A scandal like this was always going to happen to Trump... it was inevitable.

It might just scrape in to the top 10 list of batcrap crazy things he has said so far...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on October 09, 2016, 01:38:39 am
Does anyone get the idea that if not for a candidate like trump a candidate like Clinton would never get up and that trump was chosen as candidate to ensure the next American president would be female?

If Hilary can't beat trump in this election then I'll be stumped as to how it happened.

I know this is a bit tin foil cap like, but fork me how could any party pick this moron as a candidate?  It's like picking a three legged horse to win the Melbourne cup. It might get a run but it's got no chance of winning unless people let it.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 09, 2016, 07:12:47 am
Does anyone get the idea that if not for a candidate like trump a candidate like Clinton would never get up and that trump was chosen as candidate to ensure the next American president would be female?

If Hilary can't beat trump in this election then I'll be stumped as to how it happened.

I know this is a bit tin foil cap like, but fork me how could any party pick this moron as a candidate?  It's like picking a three legged horse to win the Melbourne cup. It might get a run but it's got no chance of winning unless people let it.

The thing is...it wasn't the party that chose him.
It was the people, or a section of the people, who have put him in this position.
Large sections of the party cant stand him....and the consequences of his standing will harm that side of politics.
Supreme court positions is one aspect that they wont control with the almost inevitable loss at the election.
There are also a host of other elections involved in November (House of Reps, Senate positions and several State governorships)...and candidates are "running like the wind" to distance themselves from Trump.

Post election it is likely there will be a huge shake-up of the Republican party (if it survives) to ensure another Trump is never allowed.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Woodstock on October 09, 2016, 09:07:03 am
Interestingly Lods, an American colleague of mine noted several times that Obama has made changes in office that will make it easier for a "Trump" to get into the White House.

Hilary's biggest challenge, her election, was beating Bernie Sanders. Christ, if only people had voted him in. Polls suggested he would have smashed Trump.

What a set back for that Country. I do feel for the average Joe over there. Really do.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on October 09, 2016, 12:26:48 pm
Does anyone get the idea that if not for a candidate like trump a candidate like Clinton would never get up and that trump was chosen as candidate to ensure the next American president would be female?

If Hilary can't beat trump in this election then I'll be stumped as to how it happened.

I know this is a bit tin foil cap like, but fork me how could any party pick this moron as a candidate?  It's like picking a three legged horse to win the Melbourne cup. It might get a run but it's got no chance of winning unless people let it.

A conspiracy theory doing the rounds is that the Clintons worked behind the scenes to get Trump nominated  ::)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on October 09, 2016, 02:29:09 pm
Believable at worst.

IMHO the people who wield the power seem intent on distracting the public from real issues they should be concerned with.

Did you know that seven species of bees have been added to the endangered list?

Honey bees some native to Hawaii.

No bees no pollination.

I'll let people fill in the rest. Surprisingly it didn't get a mainstream media mention.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on October 09, 2016, 03:01:34 pm
Believable at worst.

IMHO the people who wield the power seem intent on distracting the public from real issues they should be concerned with.

Did you know that seven species of bees have been added to the endangered list?

Honey bees some native to Hawaii.

No bees no pollination.

I'll let people fill in the rest. Surprisingly it didn't get a mainstream media mention.

Don't worry about the bees Thry, someone has invented a tiny drone that can pollinate flowers  ::)

It's no wonder folk are disengaged from the political process  :(
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 09, 2016, 06:19:07 pm
The bloke "caught between a rock and a hard place" is Vice Presidential candidate Mike Pence.
For many Republicans, and voters in general, he is "Streets ahead" of Trump....and possibly a good chance to secure the nomination in four years time.
Does he stick with Trump and go down in a screaming heap with him.
Or does he abandon ship and come back in 2020
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on October 10, 2016, 02:32:13 am
Don't worry about the bees Thry, someone has invented a tiny drone that can pollinate flowers  ::)

It's no wonder folk are disengaged from the political process  :(

I'm in NYC atm and from what I've seen so far there is very little interest "on the street" in this election.  :o. We walked past Trump Tower yesterday and there was the usual gaggle of his supporters being jeered at by the crowd across the road, but not a lot of passion on display. On TV there's a hell of a lot more discussion about the NFL!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 10, 2016, 07:38:02 am
There'll be a massive audience for the Presidential Town Hall, though.  After all, it's more theatre than politics and there'll be more hits than in an NFL game.

Even those who miss it will "follow it" via Saturday Night Live when Alec Baldwin channels Trump:

[flash=200,200]https://youtu.be/h0MaOzKQOD8[/flash]

[flash=200,200]https://youtu.be/MwxeXHXwnGs[/flash]

The Trump child rape suit has been set down for a case conference on 16 December:  http://perezhilton.com/2016-10-09-donald-trump-child-rape-teenager-jeffrey-epstein-party-13-years-old-sexual-assault-federal-judge-ronnie-abrams-hearing-ordered#.V_qozXQ8ahA (http://perezhilton.com/2016-10-09-donald-trump-child-rape-teenager-jeffrey-epstein-party-13-years-old-sexual-assault-federal-judge-ronnie-abrams-hearing-ordered#.V_qozXQ8ahA).

The very fact that the above article is on the Perez Hilton site means it will reach a more non-political audience.  I wonder if Trump will leave himself open for a king hit by trying to throw around rape allegations against Bill?   He's like Johnny Knoxville, unable to resist the temptation of doing stupid things.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 10, 2016, 10:51:48 am
Trump has just held a press conference alongside 4 women, including Juanita Broaddrick and Paula Jones who have made accusations against Bill Clinton and a woman who complains that Hillary cross-examined her in court when Hillary was defending a client against her sexual assault allegations. 

Come on Hillary, give him both barrels and hit him with the child rape suit.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on October 10, 2016, 11:03:17 am
Bill Clinton rapist posters plastered all over Washington university.

Getting real ugly now!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Dominator_7 on October 10, 2016, 12:22:45 pm
Trump is such a fknclueless  loser!!!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on October 10, 2016, 01:44:05 pm
Trump didn't lose his cool this time so it was a pretty clear win for him. He does have the advantage where he just hammers Hillary for everything that has happened in the last 8 years but Obama would never come close to losing a debate to a guy like Trump.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 10, 2016, 02:42:33 pm
Trump didn't lose his cool this time so it was a pretty clear win for him. He does have the advantage where he just hammers Hillary for everything that has happened in the last 8 years but Obama would never come close to losing a debate to a guy like Trump.

A draw....and that's probably as good as a win given his last couple of days.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on October 10, 2016, 02:49:03 pm
The Alicia Keys concert in Time Sq tonight created a much bigger sensation . 8)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on October 10, 2016, 03:13:07 pm
That was some of the most unedifying TV I have ever forced myself to watch - and I couldn't last the distance.

Trump was a disaster, sniffing, blustering, claiming bias and failing to answer questions with anything that resembled a logical well thought out response.  Clinton was more polished, gave reasonable responses and worked hard to engage with the audience.

I found myself thinking that our politicians aren't that bad - well some of them anyway.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: thrunthrublu on October 10, 2016, 03:49:49 pm
Trump has just held a press conference alongside 4 women, including Juanita Broaddrick and Paula Jones who have made accusations against Bill Clinton and a woman who complains that Hillary cross-examined her in court when Hillary was defending a client against her sexual assault allegations. 

Come on Hillary, give him both barrels and hit him with the child rape suit.

couldnt even swat a fly
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2016, 10:53:01 am
The Alicia Keys concert in Time Sq tonight created a much bigger sensation . 8)
NFL games are down on last year.  KB suggested that's because of a backlash against Kaepernick refusing to stand for the national anthem but his "Man from Sacremento" believes that Trump has drawn viewers away from NFL games, particularly when debates go head to head with a game as they did on Sunday.  He says that in the US Sunday is a big day for political coverage on TV.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on October 11, 2016, 11:54:15 am
NFL games are down on last year.  KB suggested that's because of a backlash against Kaepernick refusing to stand for the national anthem but his "Man from Sacremento" believes that Trump has drawn viewers away from NFL games, particularly when debates go head to head with a game as they did on Sunday.  He says that in the US Sunday is a big day for political coverage on TV.

I can tell you categorically that there is very little talk of the election in the street as far as I can detect. I was in a crowded bar last night for example and there were two screens, one showing soccer and one the debate. No one was watching the debate.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2016, 12:11:37 pm
That's a bit of a self-selecting sample, though.  If you're interested in the debate, you don't go to a crowded bar as you're not likely to be able to listen to it.  On the other hand, sports can be watched even if you can't hear the sound.  Anyone interested in the debate would stay home and watch it or watch it with friends who have a similar interest.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on October 11, 2016, 12:16:25 pm
I saw this quote somewhere, and i thought how poignant.

If i ha to choose between these two, I would vote Trump,

Because I would rather handle a baby squealing pig, rather than a venomous snake
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2016, 12:22:04 pm
Putin said that, did he?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on October 11, 2016, 12:27:35 pm
^^

nope.

some bloke on facebook.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2016, 12:32:36 pm
I'm sure Putin thinks it, though.  Why else would he be feeding Wikileaks?  He knows he just has to compliment Trump and he'll have Trump eating out of his hand. He's done that already and had Trump acting like a Kremlin PR official.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on October 11, 2016, 12:40:40 pm
I saw this quote somewhere, and i thought how poignant.

If i ha to choose between these two, I would vote Trump,

Because I would rather handle a baby squealing pig, rather than a venomous snake

I'd never vote for Trump. Just has zero accountability and zero credibility.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on October 11, 2016, 01:34:13 pm
That's a bit of a self-selecting sample, though.  If you're interested in the debate, you don't go to a crowded bar as you're not likely to be able to listen to it.  On the other hand, sports can be watched even if you can't hear the sound.  Anyone interested in the debate would stay home and watch it or watch it with friends who have a similar interest.

Yeah yeah yeah. This contest seems to be cut and dried. If you want any serious and intelligent analysis of the real issues that face the US and what either of these two plan to do about it I guess you wouldn't be wasting your time watching them kick lumps out of each other on TV whether at home or in a bar.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on October 11, 2016, 04:30:34 pm
I'd never vote for Trump. Just has zero accountability and zero credibility.

Love your avatar PP, is that Trump before he dyed himself and his hair yellow?  ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on October 11, 2016, 04:36:24 pm
Love your avatar PP, is that Trump before he dyed himself and his hair yellow?  ;)

Ha ! No, that's me putting on a brave face after I got "trumped" by another chimp for the Wally Walpamur ads, way back when.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on October 11, 2016, 06:11:29 pm
Ha ! No, that's me putting on a brave face after I got "trumped" by another chimp for the Wally Walpamur ads, way back when.

 :)) :)) :))
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 11, 2016, 06:27:28 pm
Why wont he stay dead? ??? :(

(http://expatprogressive.podbean.com/mf/web/q2syeh/Zombie.jpg)

Just when you think he cant get up again...back he comes!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on October 12, 2016, 05:26:52 pm
The Republicans are deserting Trump in a desperate bid to save their majority in Congress.  In response, Trump is taking the gloves off and is going to get stuck into everyone . . . and that's really going to help  ::)

Apparently there's a chance that Trump will establish his own party and split the Republican base.

It would be ironic if Trump delivers Clinton the presidency and a majority in Congress.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on October 13, 2016, 11:34:46 pm
Trump I believe is at his lowest approval ratings yet since winning the Republican nomination, but this does not yet rule him out. He is within 1% in Ohio & 2% in Florida which are the 2 key battleground states, but even these are not enough. He would also have to win Nevada, North Carolina and likely a few others, which is extremely unlikely.

This last month has been a disaster for him
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 14, 2016, 11:28:25 am
Yes, it has been a disaster.  He has fat chance of winning over women now. 

I'm still fascinated by the Clinton campaign ignoring the fact that Trump is being sued by a woman who claims he raped her in the company of a now-convicted paedophile Billionaire, Epstein, when she was just 13.  And the press has largely ignored it too.

I had hoped that Clinton would unleash this nuclear assault during the 2nd debate when Trump accused Bill of rape but there was just the sound of crickets while a tumbleweed drifted lazily across the stage.  Subsequently, articles suggested Hillary was advised to "do no harm" - Trump was imploding all by himself, so there was no need to try for a knockout blow (cf the 1st debate where the Machado set piece set his implosion in motion). 

That advice to do no harm was general and there's been nothing to suggest that there has been any thought given to the rape claim.  I could certainly understand, though, that going there might conceivably have blown up in her face.

To start with, the suit may be a malicious fabrication.  It was filed under a pseudonym, so no one really knows much about the complainant or her credibility.  It would certainly be a disaster if Hillary seized on it only to find that the complainant was in fact a 400 pound hacker, as Trump would say, who created it while sitting on his parents' couch.  Even worse if said 400 pound hacker is a Hillary or Bernie supporter.

The chances of a fraud appear to be diminishing, though.  For a start, the article I posted previously notes that a 2nd high-profile lawyer has now signed on to represent the complainant.  Sure, some hack lawyers might believe any publicity is good publicity but high-profile lawyers don't want to risk being associated with a clusterfork.  I'd imagine at the very least the lawyers have met with the complainant and vetted her to some degree.  Then you have the fact that the Federal Court Judge set the case down for a case conference instead of dismissing it out of hand.

Clinton would be partly insulated, anyway, from claims that she set this thing in motion as the ultimate dirty trick.  The complainant tried to launch the action in April this year without using a lawyer and it was dismissed on procedural grounds.  Trump was then in a fight to death with Cruz while Hillary was fending off Sanders.  Even if she had the foresight to lay down a surprise for Trump, you'd think she would have ensured that it cleared procedural obstacles.

On the other hand, maybe there is a concern that Trump would try to drag the Clintons down with him.  Epstein was a big player in NY social circles and Bill Clinton mixed with him as he did with Trump. Whether true or not, Trump could say that he saw or heard of Bill doing X, Y and Z to women at one of Epstein's parties or on his private jet.  Just associating Bill with a convicted paedophile would cause some damage.  If Clinton wins, she won't want a poisoned chalice.  If she goes in damaged, the Republicans in Congress will surely take advantage and block everything she tries to do.

Or maybe it makes sense to leave this knockout blow for later.  He has been hit repeatedly on his attitude to women and less serious sexual assaults.  As it stands, the allegations made in the rape case are no longer as surprising as they were before.  They fit into the same pattern of behaviour, albeit so much more serious.

Could it come up in the 3rd debate?  All Clinton would have to do is invite the audience to google Trump+rape and it will become a thing.  Or she could hit him between the eyes with it.  She doesn't have to worry about being sued for defamation as it's a fact he is being sued for child rape, as long as she doesn't assert that the allegations are true.


Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on October 14, 2016, 11:42:38 am
Why wont he stay dead? ??? :(

(http://expatprogressive.podbean.com/mf/web/q2syeh/Zombie.jpg)

Just when you think he cant get up again...back he comes!

Plastic doesn't decompose, but it's cheap, toxic and nasty to the environment.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Blue Moon on October 14, 2016, 02:14:28 pm
I have no doubt that Donald Trump will win the November election. He will defeat the Republican Party in a landslide. That is who he is campaigning against.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on October 14, 2016, 02:20:56 pm
Trump is being crucified in th US media atm. He needs a miracle but there are hints that some bad stuff about Hillary may yet come out. She is being accused by some of being behind the supply of arms to ISiS!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on October 14, 2016, 02:30:28 pm
Its actually good for him to be demonized.

Good for him I mean.



If it becomes fantastically demonized it can be unbelievable.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 14, 2016, 02:53:38 pm
Trump is being crucified in th US media atm. He needs a miracle but there are hints that some bad stuff about Hillary may yet come out. She is being accused by some of being behind the supply of arms to ISiS!
Pretty tame for a conspiracy theory when you put it up against being a serial murderer and plotting with the UN and the Banks to engineer a takeover by the shadowy people who control the New World Order.  That's like thinking that Lex Luther is going to be taken down by unpaid parking fines rather than his attempts to take over the world.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on October 14, 2016, 03:30:32 pm
Pretty tame for a conspiracy theory when you put it up against being a serial murderer and plotting with the UN and the Banks to engineer a takeover by the shadowy people who control the New World Order.  That's like thinking that Lex Luther is going to be taken down by unpaid parking fines rather than his attempts to take over the world.

Yeah, ISIS isn't to bad really is it?   ::)

How many people has it slaughtered so far?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 14, 2016, 03:34:13 pm
Fewer than the Clintons, if you believe the right-wing wingnuts.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on October 14, 2016, 03:36:09 pm
Fewer than the Clintons, if you believe the right-wing wingnuts.

You seem to spend a lot of time reading the wing nuts?

Which is your favourite conspiracy theory?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 14, 2016, 03:40:13 pm
That Hillary orchestrated the fateful interlude between Monica and Bill so she would benefit from being seen as the victim of cheating.  What a Machiavellian character she is!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on October 14, 2016, 03:43:02 pm
That Hillary orchestrated the fateful interlude between Monica and Bill so she would benefit from being seen as the victim of cheating.  What a Machiavellian character she is!

You should start your own conspiracy channel on YouTube. ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 14, 2016, 03:46:38 pm
I like the one about Hillary and Obama being demons and smelling like sulfur. >:D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 14, 2016, 03:47:09 pm
I tried, but FoxNews and Brietbart threatened to sue me for copyright infringement  ;D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on October 14, 2016, 03:52:04 pm
I like the one about Hillary and Obama being demons and smelling like sulfur. >:D

Do they have reptilian genes as well?  :D

They may just have bad breath. I saw a TV ad today that claimed sulphur is the cause of it and offered their patent mouthwash as the cure!  ???
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 14, 2016, 04:38:19 pm
So who's the biggest slease?
The next President or the next President's husband. ::)

It's totally off the rails now. :(


Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on October 14, 2016, 04:39:51 pm
So who's the biggest slease?
The next President or the next President's husband. ::)

It's totally off the rails now. :(

I must have a fairly low pain threshold - for me it went totally off the rails months ago.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on October 14, 2016, 04:41:03 pm
I cannot remember hating a Democrat as much as I hate Hilary.
I always have hated republicans they stand for the exact opposite of what I personally want in a government, but I almost feel sorry for them with Trump, he is THAT bad

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 14, 2016, 04:42:37 pm
I must have a fairly low pain threshold - for me it went totally off the rails months ago.

It's reached new depths in the last week ::)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on October 14, 2016, 04:58:30 pm
That Hillary orchestrated the fateful interlude between Monica and Bill so she would benefit from being seen as the victim of cheating.  What a Machiavellian character she is!

A friend of my late brother's brother in law worked for Hillary at the time.  She was taken by surprise but very quickly took charge and gave Bill his lines.  He reckoned that Hillary was the brains of the family and predicted then that she would become president.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 14, 2016, 09:11:54 pm
Just watching Veep, series 1, episode 4.  Selina Meyer, the VP, is worried that Gov. Danny Chung, a Chinese-American war hero, might replace her as VP.  She has a Trumpian hot-mic disaster after an interview, making an unwise comment that he isn't even an American.  When the news breaks while she attends a hospital after a disaster, she finds rednecks start praising her for telling it like it is, that this is America, not China.  After they stuff up with a vital Senator who withdraws support for her pet Bill for filibuster reform, they have to suck up to senators from the Border Caucus who want harsh laws to deal with undocumented Mexicans, even though Meyer is in favour of allowing them to stay.  Her aides meet with a couple of senators who complain that Mexicans are bad neighbours who come into your garden at night to crap a butt-full of drugs and beans on your flowers and that's why they need a 3000 mile border fence.  They say that will be great for the construction industry to which one of the aides responds that the only way to afford it would be to bring in immigrant workmen.  The other aide says they should be able to find a way to preserve the American identity and the senators rejoice.  The aides promise that Meyer will oppose immunity for any illegal immigrants who have been in the US more than 5 years and endorse the Border Caucus's position.  Meyer's boyfriend jokes that she should sneak in to visit him because his Asian neighbours don't like her. 

Wow!  This was in 2012 and predicted Trump 3 years later.  Yes, he'd gone full birther by then but the immigration issue and the excitement of rednecks thinking that Trump tells it like it is was totally nailed.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2016, 10:07:25 am
Interesting article about how irrational voting can be, examples being that Woodrow Wilson's vote plunged in beachfront towns affected by the "Jaws" shark attacks of 1916 and incumbent Presidential candidates get a bump in states where the NFL team wins: This is the best book to help you understand the wild 2016 campaign (http://), Vox, 14/10.

It also suggests that the mostly direct election of the President increases the chances of a fool or knave winning when compared to a parliamentary system:

Quote
Most successful democracies have parliamentary governments — often backed by proportional electoral systems — leading to a politics that reenforces this tendency and avoids tipping points. In the American system, small shifts in public sentiment can lead to drastic changes — either Bush or Gore, either Clinton or Trump — whereas the Dutch or German electoral systems ensure that a small change in voting behavior leads to a small change in the composition of parliament. Any given party could put a fool or a knave forward as leader, and he might still win votes. But to exercise meaningful power he would need to negotiate with other coalition partners, which is hard to do if you’re a fool.

The American system has no such safeguard. If a fool or a knave secures the nomination of one of the major political parties, he has a pretty good chance of becoming president, at which point all bets are off.

When the office was originally designed by the framers of the Constitution, they meant for it to be an indirectly elected office whose holder would be selected by a collaborative meeting of Electoral College members, thus insulating it from popular whims. Strong democratic norms led rather swiftly to a system that more closely resembles direct election. But at various points in time, the process for nominating candidates served the role of structuring the public’s choices.

As E.E. Schattschneider wrote in his 1940s classic Party Government, “Democracy is not found in the parties but between the parties.”

But things change over time. The boss-led party system of Schattschneider’s day was replaced by a more open one in the 1970s, which, in turn, seems to have evolved back in a more elite-driven direction in the 1980s and ’90s. Today, however, in part thanks to technology-driven shifts in the media, the party system is opening up again, and party elites are losing control.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on October 18, 2016, 02:39:11 pm
Interesting those rumors about trump's motives for running won't go away.

He comes out of this process with his business career now in a much netter place than it was when he nominated.

Trump is all about Trump, people would be very wise to remember that, not that any other Politician is better.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 18, 2016, 03:05:09 pm
Not sure about that.  The suggestion is that he wants to start a right-wing wingnut empire.  His unhinged performance in the presidential campaign would help in that regard.  But it's an increasingly crowded field- Brietbart, Infowars, FoxNews and others.  Given Steven Bannon, the head of Brietbart, is his campaign chairman, it wouldn't be hard to see them joining forces.  But would Trump be willing to partner with Bannon or would he expect to absorb Brietbart?  Trump would add some value to Bannon's operation but I can't see Bannon handing it over to Trump and his kids.  Will a mere slice of the action give Trump enough power and money to satisfy him?  Some erstwhile high-flyers are hitting hard times now.  Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh set up their own media empires but they're losing ground now. 

Trump's appeal to "the deplorables" will help when it comes to entering the media market but it also undermines his core business of licensing his name for luxury products.  He hasn't built anything since 2008 excluding golf courses.  People think he builds hotels, skyscrapers and developments but he doesn't.  He licenses his name to other developers for a fee.  But has his embrace of the rednecks destroyed the cachet of his name?  Rednecks aren't going to pay to go to his luxury resorts and other guests would run away if they did.  Will the wealthy be less willing to patronise his luxury hotels?  We'd need to hear from a marketing guru but it seems to me he's taken his brand downmarket.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on October 18, 2016, 03:19:31 pm
Trump's appeal to "the deplorables" will help when it comes to entering the media market but it also undermines his core business of licensing his name for luxury products.  He hasn't built anything since 2008 excluding golf courses.  People think he builds hotels, skyscrapers and developments but he doesn't.  He licenses his name to other developers for a fee.  But has his embrace of the rednecks destroyed the cachet of his name?  Rednecks aren't going to pay to go to his luxury resorts and other guests would run away if they did.  Will the wealthy be less willing to patronise his luxury hotels?  We'd need to hear from a marketing guru but it seems to me he's taken his brand downmarket.

The glamor stuff is good for a media based revenue stream, but his image is on the slide and to some degree self-damaged. If you can't maintain the image but it slides very quickly, ask Paris Hilton.

I believe Trump had previously put his name to other low cost goods and it didn't work out, but that was in the context of a glamor media profile. That won't stop him trying again using his newly found Redneck Patriotic perspectives. Trump ammo, rifles, handguns, bunkers, fencing, razor wire, etc., etc.. Probably all of it re-packed in the USA as a "Made in the USA" product, but fully imported from Mexico!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 21, 2016, 07:19:48 am
Trump is going OK in  the debate, holding  his own, scoring a few hits on Hillary.....

Then he exercises his second amendment right to "shoot himself in the foot" by refusing to say he'd necessarily accept the result of the election. ;D ::)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on October 21, 2016, 08:29:15 am
Trump is going OK in  the debate, holding  his own, scoring a few hits on Hillary.....

Then he exercises his second amendment right to "shoot himself in the foot" by refusing to say he'd necessarily accept the result of the election. ;D ::)

If this blokes hand was "On the Button" he'd press it just to see what happens!

In other words, he's a dickhead!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 21, 2016, 09:47:41 am
Must be hard for Trump to accept being a 3 time loser.  As with the other 2 debates, he's acting like the Black Knight, claiming victory on the "strength" of easily-manipulated online polls regarding the debate. It's funny to think that he once boasted that he's such a winner that America will get sick of winning when he's the President.  He must be devastated that he couldn't even beat a nasty woman which in his own mind should have been a cakewalk.  The other irony is that she overpowered him in the last half of each debate despite his boasts that he has far more stamina than Hillary.  But then that's a bit unfair.  We all know that he was really boasting that he had a penis and she didn't, so that might be one of the few true things he said.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on October 21, 2016, 09:54:35 am
Must be hard for Trump to accept being a 3 time loser.  As with the other 2 debates, he's acting like the Black Knight, claiming victory on the "strength" of easily-manipulated online polls regarding the debate. It's funny to think that he once boasted that he's such a winner that America will get sick of winning when he's the President.  He must be devastated that he couldn't even beat a nasty woman which in his own mind should have been a cakewalk.  The other irony is that she overpowered him in the last half of each debate despite his boasts that he has far more stamina than Hillary.  But then that's a bit unfair.  We all know that he was really boasting that he had a penis and she didn't, so that might be one of the few true things he said.

That's just nasty!  ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on October 21, 2016, 10:25:14 am
Must be hard for Trump to accept being a 3 time loser.  As with the other 2 debates, he's acting like the Black Knight, claiming victory on the "strength" of easily-manipulated online polls regarding the debate. It's funny to think that he once boasted that he's such a winner that America will get sick of winning when he's the President.  He must be devastated that he couldn't even beat a nasty woman which in his own mind should have been a cakewalk.  The other irony is that she overpowered him in the last half of each debate despite his boasts that he has far more stamina than Hillary.  But then that's a bit unfair.  We all know that he was really boasting that he had a penis and she didn't, so that might be one of the few true things he said.

From all reports it's hardly a penis that has anything to boast about... ;D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 21, 2016, 12:31:20 pm
Wow!

Trump has shown again he can't perform after half-time.  Both Hillary and he have attended a charity event that is held each year.  It is in the nature of a comedy roast and coincides each 4th year with the Presidential election campaign.  In previous campaigns, the candidates have engaged in self-deprecating and generous humour.

Trump gave the first speech.  For the first half of it, he was quite funny.  But then bad Trump came out to play.  His "jokes" became unfunny sledges, so much so that he was repeatedly booed.  He then started just giving a campaign speech.  The roastmaster, Al Smith, told the audience after the speech that Ronald Reagan would have said, "There you go again ...".

I guess his inability to follow social conventions might be an electoral asset with his base.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on October 21, 2016, 12:36:42 pm
^^

If hes having a hard time going the distance, does that mean he needs viagra??
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 21, 2016, 12:50:08 pm
Good news for him - cheaper generic Viagra is coming in 2017.

Has anybody ever seen Trump laugh?  Not smiles at a roast or a jokey delivery as he lets a burn fly.  I mean a genuine laugh.  For a guy who established a TV persona as a sometimes mischievously light-hearted guy on The Apprentice, he really doesn't seem to have a sense of humour. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 21, 2016, 12:53:45 pm
To be fair...Hillary had some pretty unfunny cringe-worthy moments too.
Both need some new joke writers ::)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on October 21, 2016, 01:01:03 pm
No one would ever think Hillary could have a career as a stand-up comedian.  But she does laugh.  And both candidates had control of the jokes they used.  It goes without saying that the jokes were written by others.  Hillary even referenced that when she said there were jokes she rejected but you can read them after the next Wikileak.

He obviously crossed the line when he read out a joke in which he called her Crooked Hillary without any humorous angle to it whatsoever.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on October 21, 2016, 01:04:57 pm
Good news for him - cheaper generic Viagra is coming in 2017.

Has anybody ever seen Trump laugh?  Not smiles at a roast or a jokey delivery as he lets a burn fly.  I mean a genuine laugh.  For a guy who established a TV persona as a sometimes mischievously light-hearted guy on The Apprentice, he really doesn't seem to have a sense of humour.

He probably exhausts his sense of humour after doing his hair each day.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on October 21, 2016, 01:07:46 pm
Good news for him - cheaper generic Viagra is coming in 2017.

Has anybody ever seen Trump laugh?  Not smiles at a roast or a jokey delivery as he lets a burn fly.  I mean a genuine laugh.  For a guy who established a TV persona as a sometimes mischievously light-hearted guy on The Apprentice, he really doesn't seem to have a sense of humour.

Wow - that's good news for us all!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on October 21, 2016, 01:46:13 pm
In the debate there were two ares in particularly that should have shown American's (as if they needed more convincing) that this guy doesn't have the ability or commitment to the issues to run as president.
Now I am not expert on either of these, but I have at least a fundamental understanding of both, more the 2nd item for various reasons, particularly around the Russian/USSR position, but....  If I was running for President of the USA, you would be damned sure there would be two topics you would be 100% all over, with again the 2nd one less likely ton influence the election, but actually having far more reaching consequences.

Abortion
As any politician running for president in the US you need to know Roe v Wade and you need to understand the importance of abortion to both parties. When quizzed on whether he would seek to reverse the decision he fluffed about, said he would leave it to states and when pressed said it will change automatically in his view.  When talking about partial-birth abortions I am surprised he wasn't claiming that Satan come and took the babies himself and slit their throats as they were coming out of vaginas or women who were having last minute changes of minds. I literally could not believe a presidential candidate was talking this way.

Edit Whilst familiar with  the general understanding of abortion and politics in the US, I was naive to partial-birth abortions, which it seems is in fact a pretty nasty business. Still it was handled really poorly by Trump and used as a way of not really answering directly the original question. It also was handled in a graphic very poor manner.


Middle East
His comments on Aleppo & Mosul were just blindingly stupid and uninformed. Now when you consider that most security experts in the world see Syria as far more than a battle between Islamic extremists, a despotic ruling (let's pretend to call it a political party) and rebels (who of course are made up in a large proportion of more Islamic extremists, including the terrorist group Al-Nusra Front). If it was just those groups it would be still the biggest mess in the world, but perhaps even more importantly it is considered a testing ground for Russia v Europe and the US and if you are going to be the President of the US, you 100% absolutely must be up to date on what is happening there and the ramifications in particular of the battle for Aleppo. It would be well worth understanding the battle for Mosul going on right at the moment also as Mosul looks to overtake Aleppo as potentially the biggest humanitarian crisis facing the world over the next month.

When quizzed on the subject he said both were terrible, but we had Mosul, we had Mosul but Hilary let it slip.. That Mosul should have just been a surprise attack.. How exactly would you make a surprise attack on Mosul (they have been booby trapping  inviting an attack since they took it), at attack was always on the cards and the element of surprise sounds like something he seen in a movie one day. He also seemed to completely overlook completely that if the American's "own" the battle for Mosul, a lot of the fighters will refuse to fight and a lot of people being liberated would turn against them. To a lot of people in Iraq it is important that not only is Mosul taken by a Muslim army, but more so that it is a Sunni Muslim army. So much so that the supporting Shiite Muslim armies have agreed to not enter the city.

In reality having the Kurds take all the surrounding towns, dropping the leaflets and letting the people know what is coming and inching forward would seem the only strategic way to do it without of course doing what it would seem Trump would do, which is just bomb the entire city so that there is no Mosul any longer. Or of course perhaps they go all Call of Duty against a very well drilled, well entrenched army and see all of their army slaughtered.

Mosul is going to fall over the weeks/months and it will be a humanitarian disaster, but what became clear last night is that he literally has only slightly more knowledge and understanding than the average person in a Walmart car park in Mississippi


He just cannot be President of a country that is responsible for providing a counter balance to Russia, he just proves he has zero idea about the responsibility he has to the world and that he will look favorably upon anyone that scratches his head (I don't know Putin, but he said nice things about me).



Going into this I didn't want either candidate to win and I was disgusted that Hilary was going to be the President of the USA, but the more this has gone on, the more obvious it is that he simply has no place even running for the position.

He will lose this by a huge margin
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on October 21, 2016, 01:53:15 pm
^^

MIO, I think you have given these issues much more thought than anybody else in the United States of America has, and possibly know more about it, than 3/4 of their population will ever know.

Im going to copy past one line:

Quote
How exactly would you make a surprise attack on Mosul (they have been booby trapping  inviting an attack since they took it), at attack was always on the cards and the element of surprise sounds like something he seen in a movie one day.

Unfortunately, and I don't mean this as a rude generalisation to the American component of our supporter base, (because you guys must have brains to barrack for Carlton) but the majority of them would think this is precisely the action required, and possibly applaud him for it.

The voting public have no concept of what you are talking about, and would possibly just want Rambo to go in and fix it for them.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on October 21, 2016, 02:01:03 pm
@MIO

The current Middle East conflicts are primarily all about who controls oil and gas supplies and the respective pipelines, with Russia, Syria and Iran in conflict with the USA, UK and Euro big oil interests. It's also key to the US policy of surrounding and containing the power of Russia (and indirectly China), one of the world's leading oil and gas producers, in order to maintain its own global primacy.

Hillary is the candidate of choice of the major US global energy, financial and military interests as successor to Obama. Trump is not.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on October 21, 2016, 02:21:04 pm
@MIO

The current Middle East conflicts are primarily all about who controls oil and gas supplies and the respective pipelines, with Russia, Syria and Iran in conflict with the USA, UK and Euro big oil interests. It's also key to the US policy of surrounding and containing the power of Russia (and indirectly China), one of the world's leading oil and gas producers, in order to maintain its own global primacy.

Hillary is the candidate of choice of the major US global energy, financial and military interests as successor to Obama. Trump is not.

I don't entirely agree Cookie, the old.. "who controls the oil" argument has flaws, but the oil is no doubt at all a big component. But the battle to retake Mosul is nothing to do with oil other than the fact it is one of the sources of income of ISIS. It is a huge city and Russia plays no part there. Whilst wiping out ISIS is important to ensure that it doesn't control basically the Middle East and in turn a large portion of oil, there are far bigger reasons to take Mosul and have ISIS lose the last major stronghold in Iraq. The less presence the group has, the more fallible it is proven to be, the less ability they have to attract followers in the west drawn to believe they are going to a better life in the caliphate. There will always be radicals, but it is important to start to take power away from this group.


The battle in Syria is an entirely different beast. Yes Putin and Assad are in each others pockets and there will be a 'hands on oil' component which is why Russia is in there, but there is much more to it than just that. Putin needs to world to understand that the side they take will not back down, will not wewill not do it the 'weak' US and European way. Syria is just a proving ground for all the chest thumping they are doing across northern Europe and  have been doing in Ukraine/Crimea and now with the recent shift towards Nuclear chest thumping, such as the deployments in Kalingrad as well as the recent suspension of the nuclear treaty dealing with weapons grade plutonium as well as claims to be able to defeat the most advanced defense systems in the world and hit any target city. Putin is using Syria for far more than oil and it is why it is insane to imagine a US president prepared to be appeased by 'nice words' from the Kremlin. To imagine that everyone plays by the same rules is idiotic of Trump.

So yes I agree oil plays a part, but I think the bigger issue is about Russia exerting itself and not being held back to ideals of other countries. It is important that it is not seen as a small country playing by other people's rules. They are an equal world power and as such will exert that. This view is hugely popular within Russia, which has throughout all of history responded to strong leaders.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on October 21, 2016, 02:30:58 pm
@MIO

Fair enough MIO, if that's the way you see it, fine. I've said what I wanted to say and I don't want to get into a protracted debate on here about it as its history is long and complex. This is not really a forum for discussing the details of that.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 29, 2016, 10:10:53 am
Just when you thought it was safe to go into the election thread ::)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-29/fbi-probe-into-clinton-emails-reignited-days-before-election/7977184

This might be nothing in the long run.... but a week or two out from the election it has an impact in terms of general impressions and there is little time to counter it.

I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't more of these grenades coming Hillary's way (Wikileaks)

The best tactic is to hit the candidate late and hard leaving them no time to debunk or defend the claims....The question is does Donald have anything left in his dodgy closet.
 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 29, 2016, 10:21:02 am
Just when you thought it was safe to go into the election thread ::)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-29/fbi-probe-into-clinton-emails-reignited-days-before-election/7977184

This might be nothing in the long run.... but a week or two out from the election it has an impact in terms of general impressions and there is little time to counter it.

I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't more of these grenades coming Hillary's way (Wikileaks)

The best tactic is to hit the candidate late and hard leaving them no time to debunk or defend the claims....The question is does Donald have anything left in his dodgy closet.

Might grab  Trump a few votes but the two candidates are so polarising and opposite most people would have made up their mind from day 1 IMO....eg you either love or hate Trump and his voters wont be changing their mind. Its more about getting apathetic voters off the couch and into the polling booths IMO and grabbing their vote and I still think Hilary has more chance of doing that and she will have the numbers especially with the Hispanic community so anti Trump.
Business community is tipping a 10% drop in the world share market if Trump gets in and the way things are going in that area it could bring on another GFC....
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 29, 2016, 10:34:44 am
Might grab  Trump a few votes but the two candidates are so polarising and opposite most people would have made up their mind from day 1 IMO....eg you either love or hate Trump and his voters wont be changing their mind. Its more about getting apathetic voters off the couch and into the polling booths IMO and grabbing their vote and I still think Hilary has more chance of doing that and she will have the numbers especially with the Hispanic community so anti Trump.
Business community is tipping a 10% drop in the world share market if Trump gets in and the way things are going in that area it could bring on another GFC....

Many people have already voted...and most people have made up their minds.
It's the "undecideds" that are likely to be influenced by anything that comes out in the next week or two...and that may be influential in key states.

The market is a fair indicator and it initially dropped significantly on this news this morning.

I've written Trump off a dozen times already...as of now I think he still has a chance....and I'll stick to that through until election day now.
Bizarre! ::)

 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on October 29, 2016, 01:25:43 pm
http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/fbi-to-review-more-hillary-clinton-emails-20161028-gsdjow.html (http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/fbi-to-review-more-hillary-clinton-emails-20161028-gsdjow.html)

Still think Trump will get taken out.....
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 29, 2016, 01:35:48 pm
Trumps like one of those hitchhikers in the horror movies that gets run over but keeps coming after the folks that run him over :D

We're at the stage now where we're pretty sure he's dead...... but then there's always the chance that in one last shocking twist he gets up and comes again. ;D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on October 29, 2016, 02:23:20 pm
Looks like the strategy now is to make the last couple of weeks' run up to the election all about "bad" Hillary whilst taking the heat off Trump. Be interesting to see how effective that is or whether the Dems can get the Donald's sexual exploits back front and center.  ::)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on October 29, 2016, 06:16:21 pm
Hillary should be in jail.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on October 29, 2016, 06:29:05 pm
Donald should be in gaol.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on October 29, 2016, 06:53:29 pm
They both should be in gaol.
 :D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on October 29, 2016, 07:40:26 pm
They both should be in gaol.
 :D

I'd be happy with that  :)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on October 31, 2016, 10:13:24 pm
I'd be happy with that  :)

Me too. While you're at it throw in Howard, Rudd, Abbott... Turnbull & Shorten??? Now that's what you get when you multiply FA x 2. Stuff it, gather up pollies globally, let 'em know they're lying, self-interested, party-line following sacks of refuse then put them together on a small island inhabited by cannibals. Give the cannibals a cookbook that specialises in ways to cook meat that disguises the rancid taste.

The bloke running Canada seems like he might be okay.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on October 31, 2016, 11:11:50 pm
I have an idea.

Bring politicians wages and pensions into line with the rest of society and watch the quality of candidate improve overnight.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: sandsmere on November 01, 2016, 09:15:56 am
Things are really hotting up now .
A week ago Hilary was 11 points ahead  . . . . now only 1.
 She also has the FBI right on her hammer.
She could be elected president 1 week and be goaled the next week.

303 million people in the USA and they come up with these 2 for president. ::) ::)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 01, 2016, 10:56:19 am
If you are of the investing type go and buy some gold stocks,...if Trump wins they will go up massively, the rest of the stockmarket will crash... if Clinton wins there wont be much change.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on November 01, 2016, 11:31:56 am
Who knows what impact it will have.  The investigation won't be finalised before the election.  It may come to nothing if the emails on the laptop are just duplicates of non-classified material.  On the other hand, they may provide evidence of criminal intent which might resuscitate the investigation.

If I were a voter, I wouldn't be too concerned about the possibility that Clinton might be forced to resign.  Remember that Tim Kaine would then become President.  He is a reasonable bloke and wouldn't scare the horses.  That would be a far preferable scenario for me than having an unstable Trump in power with Pence throwing his ultra-conservative weight around like Cheney on steroids.  Those who are appalled by Trump would prefer to vote for a pet rock rather than Trump.  The question is how this development will affect libertarian, swing, and moderate Republican voters as well as whether Democratic voters will lose enthusiasm and fail to vote.

Remember, though, early and postal voting has been happening for a while and you'd imagine that would have given Clinton a sizeable advantage.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Bear on November 01, 2016, 12:01:30 pm
Happy to wager that Hillary will not go to jail.

Trump may have her executed, but she won't go to jail.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 01, 2016, 12:04:47 pm
I think an interesting question to look at is what might happen after the election in the event of Hillary winning. What will Trump do? There was talk in the US press of him setting up some kind of media company and he has been parroting a lot of stuff similar to that which people such as Alex Jones have been putting out. Trump's constituency contains many that subscribe to such sentiments. This could get very ugly.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on November 07, 2016, 11:58:53 am
The investigation won't be finalised before the election.

Well apparently they can read a few hundred thousand emails in a few days. The Bombers probably wish it was the FBI and not ASADA who handled their case.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 07, 2016, 12:06:47 pm
Happy to wager that Hillary will not go to jail.

Trump may have her executed, but she won't go to jail.

She won't go to jail, Hillary will be the next president.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Baggers on November 07, 2016, 12:14:21 pm
FBI just cleared Clinton of any wrong doing. Trump crying orange tears. 8 yellow nits, dead, fell from his head... one was holding his last remaining brain cell.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on November 07, 2016, 12:21:17 pm
FBI just cleared Clinton of any wrong doing. Trump crying orange tears. 8 yellow nits, dead, fell from his head... one was holding his last remaining brain cell.

:D

Perhaps those nits were ticks that couldn't find something to hang on to, he's just too greasy! :o
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on November 07, 2016, 12:29:34 pm
What a total screw up from the FBI and director Comey.
Whoever wins he'll probably be looking for a new job.
(His position is tenured (10 years) but there will be strong pressure on him to resign)

The problem was it would have impacted as people were already voting...that impact may be negligible but it's still there
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on November 07, 2016, 12:55:06 pm
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/andrew-bolt/hillary-clinton-nears-top-of-everest-of-lies-as-she-battles-donald-trumo-for-us-presidency/news-story/b04d69195851920b4239a7cb43f242f0

Quote
  One inquiry is into Clinton’s decision as President Barack Obama’s Secretary of State to use a private server for her official emails, rather than her State Department’s secure one.

Clinton claims she did this for convenience, so she could use just one mobile phone for both work and private emails. 
FBI director James Comey blew up Clinton’s excuse in July. He said his agents found Clinton had used “multiple devices”.

In fact Clinton, notoriously secretive, clearly used her private server to evade scrutiny of what she was sending and receiving.

Indeed, once she was found out she ordered 33,000 of her emails to be deleted — an order carried out only after Congress issued a subpoena demanding they be handed over for investigation.

Clinton claims she destroyed only her private emails and handed over all work ones.

But is she telling the truth?

The FBI has since accidentally found 350,000 Clinton emails backed up on the computer of Anthony Weiner, a former congressman and notorious sexter it was investigating for sending lewd texts to a 15-year-old girl. Weiner is married to Clinton’s closest aide, Huma Abedin.

That forced Comey to say he was reopening the inquiry into Clinton’s email scandal, which he’d controversially closed in July after concluding that while Clinton had been reckless it was unlikely she had broken the rules deliberately.

But already Comey has exposed Clinton’s chronic lying.

Clinton had claimed that none of the emails on her private server were marked confidential.

Comey said there were two.

Clinton had claimed “I never sent or received any information that was classified at the time it was sent and received’’.

False again. Comey said 110 emails in 52 of Clinton’s email chains contained information classified at the time. Eight chains contained top secret information.

Then there’s the second FBI inquiry, into the Clinton Foundation, a charity run by Clinton and husband Bill, the former president.

The FBI is questioning witnesses over claims that donors to the Clinton’s foundation were rewarded with government favours and access to Clinton as Secretary of State.

Leaked emails about this alleged “pay to play” scheme already show State Department officials who were co-ordinating the Haiti relief effort helping what one marked down as “friends of Bill”, while brushing off non-donors.

More seriously, the evidence shows Bill Clinton’s speaking fees rocketing up to $500,000 or even more when his wife was made Secretary of State.

Some of that cash came from Clinton Foundation donors.

Some donors, from businessmen to Middle Eastern nations, even got government contracts or permission for arms deals.

More “pay to play”? Were the Clintons using Hillary’s government job to make Bill rich?

Indeed, the Clintons, who left the White House claiming to be “dead broke”, have earned $180 million while Hillary worked for Obama and in the three years since.

Hillary Clinton strongly denies any wrongdoing, but polls now show many Americans think her even more dishonest than Trump.

No wonder. Consider other lies Clinton has told.

She claimed she’d been named after Sir Edmund Hillary, when in fact Clinton was already six when the beekeeper conquered Mt Everest.


At one campaign event, Clinton claimed all her grandparents were immigrants: “I think if we were to just go around this room, there are a lot of immigrant stories. All my grandparents, you know, came over here.”

In fact, just one grandparent was an immigrant.

Clinton claimed she tried to join the Marines in 1975, when in fact she was a rising legal star.

In the 2008 campaign, Clinton claimed she dodged sniper fire in a visit to Bosnia during the war there and had to run “with our heads down to get into the vehicles to get to our base”.

But video of her arrival showed no shooting, no running, and a calm welcoming ceremony at the airport.

The lies got worse.

Clinton as Secretary of State falsely suggested that an al Qaeda-linked assault on the US consulate in Benghazi on the anniversary of the September 11 attacks was instead just a violent protest against an anti-Muslim YouTube clip.

Relatives of some of the four Americans killed claimed she’d also lied to them privately, telling them the YouTube clip was to blame,

It seems Clinton did not want to publicly admit — soon before Obama’s re-election campaign — that America had again suffered a terrorist attack and that Obama would not react.

So, still surprised Clinton could lose tomorrow, even against Trump?

This does not prove Clinton would be a worse president.

After all, Trump, also a liar, has zero experience of government, a hot head and dangerously inconsistent foreign policy positions. For instance, he wants America to intervene even less in foreign wars, yet warns that Iranian sailors who are rude to US warships would be “shot out of the water”. Mixed signals like that can create wars.

But Clinton’s lies suggest she is a risk, too. Who can really know what kind of president she’d be?

Before this campaign, for instance, she claimed that the Trans-Pacific Partnership — a big trade deal including Australia — was the “gold standard in trade agreements”.

But in the election campaign, under pressure from Senator Bernie Sanders on the Left and Trump on the Right, she lied and said she’d never said that.

She’s now against the deal, too, even though leaked emails show she privately reassured bankers in a paid speech she wanted “open trade with open borders”.

But you’re right: with two liars in the race, what’s to choose between either? Talk policy instead.

So, which one wants even more government spending, higher taxes, weaker borders, and more of the inflammatory identity politics that will weaken the US?

Which will foster the insider cronyism that has made Washington politics contemptible to so many voters?

Which wants more of the go-along-to-get-along internationalism that’s already created the dangerous vacuum now being filled by China and Russia, increasingly belligerent authoritarian superpowers?

That’s Clinton each time.

So maybe Trump is not just the more honest choice but the safer, after all.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on November 07, 2016, 02:21:02 pm
Trump will win, rightly or wrongly. Or be killed beforehand (or maybe after?)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: chalkybill on November 07, 2016, 02:50:19 pm
They - and we - are caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea.  I know that our politicians are not real good BUT these two are CRAP!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on November 08, 2016, 10:41:50 am
MBB, you know that Comey has already cleared her over the emails on the Weiner laptop, don't you?  What a clusterfork that was.  Why the hell didn't he do his homework and determine that they were either Weiner's emails or duplicates of what the FBI already had before perverting 9 vital days at the end of the campaign with a false innuendo that something new had been discovered? He should have done what he is supposed to do which is investigate behind closed doors and charge if and when that's appropriate. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on November 08, 2016, 11:00:30 am
MBB, you know that Comey has already cleared her over the emails on the Weiner laptop, don't you?  What a clusterfork that was. 

It certainly was when Loretta Lynch has a secret meeting with Bill Clinton on his private jet in the days leading up to it.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on November 09, 2016, 01:53:12 pm
Geez I think Hilary will still win, but..... She has to take Virginia  or Florida. Now predictions that Michigan is a good chance of going Trump. This could be compared to Brexit or to Victoria turfing Kennett in that people are just so pissed of they are voting with anger.

I think in the next hour or two it should be much clearer who is going to get this.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on November 09, 2016, 02:12:52 pm
gold has surged in the last 30 minutes - up 3% - this suggests a Trump win.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on November 09, 2016, 02:23:01 pm
It keeps going Trump, geez, he would have to be very close to the favorite now and a few areas are calling it as going to Trump
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 09, 2016, 02:26:17 pm
gold has surged in the last 30 minutes - up 3% - this suggests a Trump win.

I said to be thinking  Gold last week...if Trump gets up plenty of share traders will be delighted....not so good for the rest of the ASX though...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on November 09, 2016, 02:27:38 pm
Betfair now has trump at 1.25 and Clinton at $5
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on November 09, 2016, 02:32:20 pm
Counting proceeds as the sun sets so that is pretty good odds to be offering against Clinton given the Seaboard East/Western US states are normally Democrat while Middle America is normally GOP.

To me this looks very close at this stage!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2016, 02:36:58 pm
Betfair now has trump at 1.25 and Clinton at $5

Wow!

There was a guy on SEN phone-in earlier, an Aussie, who has traveled widely in the US in the past few years. He was tipping a Trump win based on the huge levels of deprivation and dissatisfaction he claimed to have witnessed. Maybe he has got it right?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2016, 02:43:49 pm
Counting proceeds as the sun sets so that is pretty good odds to be offering against Clinton given the Seaboard East/Western US states are normally Democrat while Middle America is normally GOP.

To me this looks very close at this stage!
The fact that the western seaboard is Dem is already factored in, though.  The problem is that Trump is leading in many battleground states on the other side of the country such as Florida and Ohio and seems poised to win the Democratic states of Michigan and Wisconsin.  He can now win without winning Pennsylvania.  If he holds onto Florida as well as adding Michigan and Wisconsin, he is the favourite to win.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on November 09, 2016, 02:44:05 pm
Wow!

There was a guy on SEN phone-in earlier, an Aussie, who has traveled widely in the US in the past few years. He was tipping a Trump win based on the huge levels of deprivation and dissatisfaction he claimed to have witnessed. Maybe he has got it right?

Both of which will only worsen under Trump.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on November 09, 2016, 02:47:36 pm
it's over essentially.

trump179, killary 131.

abc precidting trump 286.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 09, 2016, 02:48:02 pm
Wow!

There was a guy on SEN phone-in earlier, an Aussie, who has traveled widely in the US in the past few years. He was tipping a Trump win based on the huge levels of deprivation and dissatisfaction he claimed to have witnessed. Maybe he has got it right?

There is an old saying Cookie..." a drowning man will cling onto a Serpent"...seems like a few more Americans than expected are clinging onto Trump.....
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on November 09, 2016, 02:50:20 pm
Counting proceeds as the sun sets ....

They have to...a snake's not dead until the sun goes down!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on November 09, 2016, 02:57:18 pm
As Mav has stated Cookie, the odds are based on Michigan, Florida etc, not on the states already won.
Caifornia etc are almost irrelvant to any odds because they are already marked Blue, if there was a chance they went red it would be al l over.

Has anyone here traveled through rural America?


When you drive through towns they have lost their identity and they are fully corporate. There is no small business in these towns and they consist largely of 2-3 food chains (Wendy's, Taco Bell etc) maybe a Hi-Vee supermarket, a few gas chains and a CVS. if a bit bigger it will have a Wal-Mart. It means a very high percentage of people are working at these chains and living on minimum wage with food stamps and no real way for most to improve their station.

Clinton could win this, but this election is showing that those people are extremely unhappy at present.
The thing is though it smells like a protest vote rather than a vote for anything positive he actually offers.

I am perplexed by this whole election
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on November 09, 2016, 02:58:50 pm
it's over essentially.

trump179, killary 131.

abc precidting trump 286.

Only Ohio is big news in that though at present
She has picked up Virginia, which was considered a safe state

-----
As if on cue...
Clinton now has 209 to 172, but it doesn't change anything
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2016, 03:00:04 pm
There is an old saying Cookie..." a drowning man will cling onto a Serpent"...seems like a few more Americans than expected are clinging onto Trump.....

Yep. If (when?) Trump wins this will mean a massive shift in US foreign policy and strategy, from what I know of it, and maybe the end of the US Imperium and its dominance. God knows what will happen domestically.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2016, 03:02:48 pm
Seems to the the fall of a civilisation.  The citizens of Rome lost the willingness to preserve Rome's dominance.  As China's power grows and Russia tries to regain its former glory, this is hardly the time for American voters to have a hissy fit.

Still, the odds are that Trump will be more like a belligerent and obnoxious Governor-General while Mike Pence will be more like an Aussie PM who doesn't have to fear a leadership challenge from his own party.  Remember, there was a story that leaked when Trump was sounding out potential running mates that he told John Kasich that he, Kasich, would run the domestic policy while Trump focussed on making America great again.  The bad news is that Pence is a right-wing wingnut beneath his "aw shucks" demeanour.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on November 09, 2016, 03:03:29 pm
As Mav has stated Cookie, the odds are based on Michigan, Florida etc, not on the states already won.
Caifornia etc are almost irrelvant to any odds because they are already marked Blue, if there was a chance they went red it would be al l over.

Has anyone here traveled through rural America?


When you drive through towns they have lost their identity and they are fully corporate. There is no small business in these towns and they consist largely of 2-3 food chains (Wendy's, Taco Bell etc) maybe a Hi-Vee supermarket, a few gas chains and a CVS. if a bit bigger it will have a Wal-Mart. It means a very high percentage of people are working at these chains and living on minimum wage with food stamps and no real way for most to improve their station.

Clinton could win this, but this election is showing that those people are extremely unhappy at present.
The thing is though it smells like a protest vote rather than a vote for anything positive he actually offers.


I am perplexed by this whole election

Good post MIO.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2016, 03:10:27 pm
Trump has won Florida and Ohio - 95% certain to be president now!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2016, 03:17:40 pm


Clinton could win this, but this election is showing that those people are extremely unhappy at present.
The thing is though it smells like a protest vote rather than a vote for anything positive he actually offers.

I am perplexed by this whole election

Of course its a protest vote MIO, as was Brexit. If people are ignored and deprived for long enough they will protest and turf out those who they think have caused their woes. It's an old story.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 09, 2016, 03:22:48 pm
Of course its a protest vote MIO, as was Brexit. If people are ignored and deprived for long enough they will protest and turf out those who they think have caused their woes. It's an old story.

Its Nazi germany stuff IMO...you get enough working class people struggling and a well organised marketing strategy to engage them and you get their hearts and minds to follow.... a lot of Trump voters wouldnt have a clue what they are voting for.....in their minds anything is better than what we have, so its where do I sign to get a promised better life...
You have to wonder too if some of Hilarys promised votes didnt make it to the ballot box....
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on November 09, 2016, 03:23:32 pm
Trump has won Florida and Ohio - 95% certain to be president now!

I still haven't seen Florida called yet, but all indicators are pointing to Trump.
History suggests Florida + Ohio = President
However there is still some hope. I think though now she will need to turn a state such as Arizona. Arizona is an extremely interesting state. It is a border state and would have some of the highest number of Latinos both documented and undocumented. There is a long history of violence and I believe it was the kidnap capital of the US due to the drug trade. There will be a lot of people very strongly Trump and a lot of people very strongly anti-Trump with this policies on deportation etc.

I think it will hold Trump, but it is certainly a state still up in the air.
The other one is Utah.
As Mitt Romney's state it could very well fall to the 3rd option there and you might not get anyone voted in tonight.

But the as the election has shown any real prediction is foolhardy in this one.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on November 09, 2016, 03:26:40 pm
What happens in the states where there is a third option and neither Clinton or Trump have a clear majority?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2016, 03:28:13 pm
Its Nazi germany stuff IMO...you get enough working class people struggling and a well organised marketing strategy to engage them and you get their hearts and minds to follow.... a lot of Trump voters wouldnt have a clue what they are voting for.....in their minds anything is better than what we have, so its where do I sign to get a promised better life...

Sure is, more than anything it's a massive failure of the conventional political parties to provide adequately for their constituents, just as the weak Weimar republic did in Germany in the 1920s and 30s. People will cop it for so long then patience runs out and anything can happen.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2016, 03:28:21 pm
Phillipines Prez Duterte may have been ahead of the curve.  There may be a few Asian nations distancing themselves from the US and being more open to China.  Why wouldn't they, given Trump has threatened to downgrade US support?  I hope that Julie Bishop will avoid handcuffing us to the US.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Bear on November 09, 2016, 03:31:18 pm
Happy to wager that Hillary will not go to jail.

Trump may have her executed, but she won't go to jail.

Less confident that Hillary won't go to jail.

Might need to get on "Execute Hillary".
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2016, 03:31:56 pm
What happens in the states where there is a third option and neither Clinton or Trump have a clear majority?
No need for a clear majority.  The candidate with the highest number of votes in any particular state wins all of that state's electoral college votes even if (s)he doesn't get 50% of the vote (disregarding a couple of states which split votes by congressional districts).

3rd party candidates really are only important when they take more votes from one of the 2 main candidates than the other.

Only in Utah might McMullin top the vote, and that's not likely.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2016, 03:32:53 pm
Less confident that Hillary won't go to jail.

Might need to get on "Execute Hillary".

Maybe she should be warming up the engine of her getaway car?  ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on November 09, 2016, 03:33:25 pm
I just layed Trump for a $1000 just because I would like to make a profit if he loses  ;D

He just picked up Utah though, so he is edging closer, but Hilary is fighting back in Michigan
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on November 09, 2016, 03:35:07 pm
Florida has now been called Trump as expected
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on November 09, 2016, 03:35:58 pm
Its Nazi germany stuff IMO...you get enough working class people struggling and a well organised marketing strategy to engage them and you get their hearts and minds to follow.... a lot of Trump voters wouldnt have a clue what they are voting for.....in their minds anything is better than what we have, so its where do I sign to get a promised better life...
You have to wonder too if some of Hilarys promised votes didnt make it to the ballot box....

So that's where the Hitler comb-over hairdo comes from,

(http://www.patrickwanis.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Donald-Trump-Compared-To-Hitler-%E2%80%93-Its-Not-What-You-Think-2.jpg)

It's like they are related, is that why they are addressed as Herr? :o

Denis Leary predicted this outcome decades ago, what a bunch of Ass#@#$!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on November 09, 2016, 03:38:02 pm
Hillary Clinton now needs to win Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin if she is going to win the White House, Norm Ornstein tells BBC News.

"She has one path to victory and he (Trump) has many others."
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Peter Brady on November 09, 2016, 04:17:05 pm
Those Russian hackers are good  ::)
This can't possibly be legitimate!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on November 09, 2016, 04:33:51 pm
Those Russian hackers are good  ::)
This can't possibly be legitimate!

It's the Chinese, they are migrating south! ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LordLucifer on November 09, 2016, 05:14:10 pm
If Trump does win, I'm predicting there will be multiple assassination attempts on his life and ongoing riots around the U.S..
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on November 09, 2016, 05:15:23 pm
If Trump does win, I'm predicting there will be multiple assassination attempts on his life and ongoing riots around the U.S..

You mean the opposition won't accept the result of the election ;D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on November 09, 2016, 05:15:54 pm
Going from Obama to Trump is like going from Ratten to Malthouse - old white man who promises much..........

I hope the Americans enjoy the next several decades of adversarial relationships with any nation / individual that isn't WASPy male. 

No doubt brickies, concretors and jailers will be very happy.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2016, 05:16:57 pm
If Trump does win, I'm predicting there will be multiple assassination attempts on his life and ongoing riots around the U.S..

Actually Sheik, I was thinking that would more likely happen if Hillary won.  ???

The Hillary supporters are looking pretty shell-shocked atm, from what I can see on tv.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2016, 05:17:52 pm
Going from Obama to Trump is like going from Ratten to Malthouse - old white man who promises much..........

I hope the Americans enjoy the next several decades of adversarial relationships with any nation / individual that isn't WASPy male. 

No doubt brickies, concretors and jailers will be very happy.

Obama to Trump - Orange is the New Black?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on November 09, 2016, 05:20:01 pm
If Trump does win, I'm predicting there will be multiple assassination attempts on his life and ongoing riots around the U.S..

I feel that prediction will stand unequaled since the days of Nostradamus! :o

It will all start with a disillusioned hillbilly from Appalachia who applies for a Trump hosted hotel job only to be beaten for it by a cheap wall climbing import!

But are Trump's biggest enemies the US Middle Class, I feel career bureaucrats and middle managers will be shizening themselves by breakfast!

Is there a pool running somewhere/anywhere on how many days it will take before a Trump motorcade drives over a homeless African American? I'd like to place a bet on 1 day after the swearing in, that is assuming he doesn't get the use of a motorcade to go home from the campaign headquarters tonight!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on November 09, 2016, 05:35:17 pm
Its Nazi germany stuff IMO...you get enough working class people struggling and a well organised marketing strategy to engage them and you get their hearts and minds to follow.... a lot of Trump voters wouldnt have a clue what they are voting for.....in their minds anything is better than what we have, so its where do I sign to get a promised better life...
You have to wonder too if some of Hilarys promised votes didnt make it to the ballot box....

I think you do Nazi Germany a disservice comparing these two.  Under their leadership, they recovered from the great depression much quicker than any other nation, and were absolutely doing well until they went too far with their social policies.

From what I have researched they were a real alternative to the ruling class at the time, that had some really good policies until megalomania kicked in.

This is quite different.  This is a vote for Megalomania to prevent Megalomania.  The people of the USA were IMHO on a complete hiding to nothing from the beginning and a big middle finger at the establishment is the only thing people voted for here which automatically gives them more credibility in my book.

IMHO, it was a dead rubber and Hillary had no contest, yet somehow the American people actually went with the option that sends a clear message to those puppet masters pulling strings.  "Start giving us something better or we will simply vote for the other option, even if they are looking like being a hopeless leader."
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on November 09, 2016, 05:45:29 pm
I think you do Nazi Germany a disservice comparing these two.  Under their leadership, they recovered from the great depression much quicker than any other nation, and were absolutely doing well until they went too far with their social policies.

By making bombs, tanks, fighter aircraft, battleships, Zyklon-B, rifles and rocket launchers at factories that had previously made ferries, cars, bicycles, motorbikes and fertilizer! :o

They did pretty well out of real-estate and the arts as well! ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on November 09, 2016, 05:51:03 pm

I find the Nazi references a bit of hysteria.

Trump's life experiences and the causes for the formation of his opinions are nothing like Adolf Hitler's.

The situation in Germany during Hitler's rise are nothing like the current situation in the USA.

You can draw parallel's with some of the oratory... but the Storm-troopers won't be marching into Mexico or Canada any time soon....in fact Trump is more likely to take America into an isolationist role....and that may be our greatest concern with this Presidency should it eventuate.

The basic system of Government there is "checks and balances" between the executive, legislative and judicial structure. Even in a situation where one party controls all three it is unlikely that these checks and balances wouldn't apply. In fact the greatest opposition for Trump may come from within his own party.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on November 09, 2016, 05:51:45 pm
So ends the career of Megan Kelly! ::)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on November 09, 2016, 05:53:51 pm
You can draw parallel's with some of the oratory... but the Storm-troopers won't be marching into Mexico or Canada any time soon....in fact Trump is more likely to take America into an isolationist role....and that may be our greatest concern with this Presidency should it eventuate.

I doubt he'll head in any direction that increases his costs or reduces his profit.

Expect more low cost/wage foreign workers, with nothing left for the plebs that voted for him to do for a living except earn less! Some of trump's biggest supporters have huge foreign investments in countries like The Philippines, Mexico, The Middle East and Australia, expect imports to stay as is or perhaps even increase!

As an aside, I'm not sure why Ariana Grande is Tweeting disapproval at the result, in a Trump led world she could be new 1st Lady within a month or so! Out with the old, in with the new! :D
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2016, 06:03:29 pm
I find the Nazi references a bit of hysteria.

Trump's life experiences and the causes for the formation of his opinions are nothing like Adolf Hitler's.

The situation in Germany during Hitler's rise are nothing like the current situation in the USA.

You can draw parallel's with some of the oratory... but the Storm-troopers won't be marching into Mexico or Canada any time soon....in fact Trump is more likely to take America into an isolationist role....and that may be our greatest concern with this Presidency should it eventuate.

The basic system of Government there is "checks and balances" between the executive, legislative and judicial structure. Even in a situation where one party controls all three it is unlikely that these checks and balances wouldn't apply. In fact the greatest opposition for Trump may come from within his own party.

The principles and causes are similar - it's more a question of degree. We await now to see whether the underlying social and economic problems get addressed effectively. If they don't then what may happen next is extremely uncertain. Bear in mind that this is only the beginning of the story - it has a very long way to play out yet.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on November 09, 2016, 06:04:04 pm
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/president-donald-trump-the-day-america-chose-to-become-the-jerry-springer-show-20161109-gslhtf.html
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on November 09, 2016, 06:13:26 pm
We await now to see whether the underlying social and economic problems get addressed effectively. If they don't then what may happen next is extremely uncertain. Bear in mind that this is only the beginning of the story - it has a very long way to play out yet.

If they don't he'll be out on his ear in 4 years....that's how democracy (not fascism ) works.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Woodstock on November 09, 2016, 06:36:22 pm
The principles and causes are similar - it's more a question of degree. We await now to see whether the underlying social and economic problems get addressed effectively. If they don't then what may happen next is extremely uncertain. Bear in mind that this is only the beginning of the story - it has a very long way to play out yet.

Hmmmm. Having a German father and having being born there and lived there many years, I think you are drawing a VERY long bow. The situations were totally different.

My German grandmother took many years to open up and talk about life under Hitler. She was a teenager when he took the reins. The look in her eye and hushed tone talking about that son of a whore. I'll never forget it. Ever. Utter betrayal. Crushing disbelief.

You have to remember that the hyper inflation and utterly brutal conditions set by the Treaty of Versailles meant that Germans, including the average punter, were screwed. There was no way back. Hitler, prior to going off the rails got people jobs, created a healthy manufacturing industry, built up autobahns, tremendous advances were made by the sheer fact that he gave people the hope to say No to austerity,roll up their sleeves and have pride in their country again. It's what he did to the Jews, gay community, gypsies, disabled...Jesus Christ, my Grandmother had friends disappear overnight. It was only much later she said, that people truly learnt of what the Nazis we're doing. She said to me "if you opened your mouth and asked too many questions...well you went missing as well". In conditions like that........

Anyway, yes, Trump sells hope, but don't compare a war ravaged country with crippling austerity measures set by foreign powers next to the elitism of the 21st century. Big difference. The elite just realised they went too far, especially the Republicans machine who thought they could belittle Trump and that people would see though him. Well he can't be bought and promised to "drain the swamp'. In a country where wage growth has stagnated for 30 years and sportstars earn obscene money compared to the average person, even emergency services and armed forces....well I can see how a protest vote could be attractive.

Would Bernie have beaten Trump? Pundits were convinced that he would have, but then again they were wrong about this final result.

I'd hate to be one of pundits in his party, or elsewhere for that matter, who bad mouthing and/or white anted him. I'd bet he doesn't hold grudges well....

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 09, 2016, 06:39:38 pm
Order has been restored, 325,000,000 morons now have a moron as their President. Finally... ::)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 09, 2016, 06:40:30 pm
I find the Nazi references a bit of hysteria.

Trump's life experiences and the causes for the formation of his opinions are nothing like Adolf Hitler's.

The situation in Germany during Hitler's rise are nothing like the current situation in the USA.

You can draw parallel's with some of the oratory... but the Storm-troopers won't be marching into Mexico or Canada any time soon....in fact Trump is more likely to take America into an isolationist role....and that may be our greatest concern with this Presidency should it eventuate.

The basic system of Government there is "checks and balances" between the executive, legislative and judicial structure. Even in a situation where one party controls all three it is unlikely that these checks and balances wouldn't apply. In fact the greatest opposition for Trump may come from within his own party.

I see plenty of parallel's.....failed businessman, failed artist, no political education but plenty of non logical political opinions, phobia's with certain racial /religious groups..... lets make america great again as a slogan.
Some quotes from an article comparing the two from the Sydney Morning Herald recently..
Hitler saw himself as singularly endowed to avert Armageddon and reach national greatness. For Hitler, there was no middle ground between the "total downfall" threatening Germany at the hands of a Jewish-Bolshevik world conspiracy and his vision of a renewed German glory - a vision of an instant "leap from despair to utopia," as historian Fritz Stern put it. Trump, too, posits a pending American cataclysm that can be averted only through his election, which will lead directly to reclaimed greatness.
They both share the " I alone" can save my country attitude......do agree though that the checks and balances of the system will prevent any extreme megalomaniac behaviour becoming a reality..
As in the 1930s, voters were invited into Wonderland, and the desperate ones felt the urge to go....Hitler didnt need stormtroopers to get voted in and neither did Trump....the people fell hook line and sinker for another messiah...

Hilary the one with the political education and qualifications in terms of political experience was ignored in favour of a bloke whose only success was a TV show show where he spent most of his time  firing people....could only happen in America....

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2016, 06:53:02 pm
If they don't he'll be out on his ear in 4 years....that's how democracy (not fascism ) works.

Sure, but you've made one big assumption - that democracy will be in play?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on November 09, 2016, 06:53:40 pm
Where's  my credit for tipping this?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 09, 2016, 06:57:22 pm
Where's  my credit for tipping this?

Its in those Gold stocks you should have bought... ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: townsendcalling on November 09, 2016, 07:08:37 pm
............and we thought that appointing an old fool like Malthouse was a mistake, and that's only sport!!!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2016, 07:18:48 pm

Hilary the one with the political education and qualifications in terms of political experience was ignored in favour of a bloke whose only success was a TV show show where he spent most of his time  firing people....could only happen in America....

Hillary was scuppered by her association with the establishment elites, wall street, the military/industrial groupings and hard ass neocons. The Democrats lost touch with traditional working roots and values and have paid dearly for it. She was also preaching to the converted about the glass ceiling and other stuff the average guy who as lost his job and his house could not give a fat rat's clacker about.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2016, 07:25:43 pm
Where's  my credit for tipping this?

Credit from me. I don't like her but I thought she'd win - I didn't realise what things in the US are like generally but there were a few clues on show in NYC when I was there recently.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2016, 07:30:08 pm
@Woody

Greatly appreciate your comments Woody. However, I fear we may be on the cusp of massive changes in the world and I'm filled with a lot of uncertainty. I hope to God you are right.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Bear on November 09, 2016, 07:34:21 pm
Where's  my credit for tipping this?

I thought you were trolling Mav.

I'd be buying gold with that credit too.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on November 09, 2016, 07:36:57 pm
Where's  my credit for tipping this?

You also predicted that Mick would be good for the club and that GWS would win the flag. That looks like a deficit to me.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: hanwell on November 09, 2016, 07:55:31 pm
Humanity (read the "experts") is once again guilty of not paying attention to history. The Donald's ascendancy to the big job has a parallel to that of the first Democrat President, Andrew Jackson in 1829, he rode in on a platform of anti elitism, an autocratic system providing jobs for the sons of the revolution, his nick name was "King Mob" and threw the doors of the White House open to the masses for his inauguration ball. He even threatened to take his predecessor Sam Adams to court because of the corrupt deal done with congress to keep him from power, he also employed not one professional politician in his cabinet, but brought in a team of business men... sound familiar?
In the process he destroyed the old "Republic Party" and created the original Democratic Party, how ironic that Donald will effectively do the same to the current Democratic Party, and will no doubt ditch the same old Republican faces and probably create his own party going forward, that's what happened in 1829, and all these years later, with Hillary's Big Tech team oblivious to the feelings of the Red Neck Whitelash, that eventually cost her the job. That and the fact that she is soooo tainted by the Bill factor, and the big Washington connections.
Trump, and his minions are pompous blustering sycophants, but they read the weather better than the entire DC political establishment, and not only have four years of unadulterated power via two subservient houses, but have the legal right to build walls anywhere they please.
At least it will be interesting.....    
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: bigblue on November 09, 2016, 08:01:42 pm
For the life of me,  I cant believe that yanks speak the same language we do ????

They are that different , it aint funny.

It really is a toss of the coin on the issue of whether they are just a naive bunch........... or just plain stupid!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: hanwell on November 09, 2016, 08:05:35 pm
Less than half the people eligible to vote actually voted, that says everything about apathy and a generation that just cant be fooked. They will be the ones with the biggest voices in the coming tempest, yet they really have no right....One hundred and fifty million didn't vote
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on November 09, 2016, 08:08:24 pm
Sure, but you've made one big assumption - that democracy will be in play?

Do you seriously think it won't?

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Raydan on November 09, 2016, 08:12:31 pm
With the amount of enemies Trump has/will make he'll be the first President assassinated in the 21st century
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: hanwell on November 09, 2016, 08:13:17 pm
If I may, this is a perfect example of democracy, Hillary has conceded, Donald has somewhat humbly accepted the win, people will go to bed and get up in the morning and life will go on. Will lessons be learnt, will we study our history, will he really kick out the muslims, build the wall, send Hillary to sing sing, nuke ISIS???? As I suggested earlier at least it will be interesting...
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2016, 08:42:42 pm
Do you seriously think it won't?

Don't take it for granted.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on November 09, 2016, 08:54:43 pm

I think we might need a cup of tea, a bex and a good lie down.
Trump's election has been a bit of a shock, but in the end...

Trump will be nothing more than a figurehead.
The day to day grind of Presidency won't be for him
He's the showman.
Most of the grunt work will be done by Pence and others...conservatives with some right wing views and they'll introduce plans that many of us don't like....
But there won't be death camps in New Mexico.
The Military will remain independent of party politics and although subject to CIC orders the real decisions will be made with input from the Generals and Admirals.

,,,and in four years time there will be an election and a President will either be re-elected or replaced
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on November 09, 2016, 09:41:57 pm
I think we might need a cup of tea, a bex and a good lie down.
Trump's election has been a bit of a shock, but in the end...

Trump will be nothing more than a figurehead.
The day to day grind of Presidency won't be for him
He's the showman.
Most of the grunt work will be done by Pence and others...conservatives with some right wing views and they'll introduce plans that many of us don't like....
But there won't be death camps in New Mexico.
The Military will remain independent of party politics and although subject to CIC orders the real decisions will be made with input from the Generals and Admirals.

,,,and in four years time there will be an election and a President will either be re-elected or replaced

Let's keep this simple - Trump likely to be killed of by Christmas.....
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2016, 09:48:01 pm
Let's keep this simple - Trump likely to be killed of by Christmas.....

Democracy in action?  :o

Seriously though, he will have made a lot of very powerful enemies no doubt.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: flyboy77 on November 09, 2016, 09:48:45 pm
Democracy in action?  :o

Spot on.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Micky0 on November 09, 2016, 10:03:11 pm
Who exactly is assassinating him? Not sure Democrats are pro
Gun and violence - that's Republican voters.

As someone said, he'll just be the loud mouthed figure head just like George W - others will be in charge.

Gee Pauline Hansen is thrilled. Say no more  :o
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 09, 2016, 10:07:25 pm
I think we might need a cup of tea, a bex and a good lie down.
Trump's election has been a bit of a shock, but in the end...

Trump will be nothing more than a figurehead..Hope somebody remembers to tell him that..
The day to day grind of Presidency won't be for him.
He's the showman.
Most of the grunt work will be done by Pence and others...conservatives with some right wing views and they'll introduce plans that many of us don't like....
But there won't be death camps in New Mexico.....US will supply arms to the drug lords to keep the fence jumpers in check...thats in line with usual US policy
The Military will remain independent of party politics and although subject to CIC orders the real decisions will be made with input from the Generals and Admirals.
Trump is planning on charging Sth Korea, Japan, Philippines etc for the privilege of American protection...

,,,and in four years time there will be an election and a President will either be re-elected or replaced

A quote from 3 hours ago....Filipino president Rodrigo Duterte vows to work with Trump in defending the dignity of all, including women and sub-standard citizens........Duterte and Trump, there is a combo  you can feel comfortable with if you are a woman or a sub standard citizen...how many more nutters are we going to have running the world and wonder how you get to qualify as a sub standard citizen....???
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2016, 10:49:07 pm
Who exactly is assassinating him? Not sure Democrats are pro
Gun and violence - that's Republican voters.

As someone said, he'll just be the loud mouthed figure head just like George W - others will be in charge.

Gee Pauline Hansen is thrilled. Say no more  :o

Heard of the neocons, US activities in Libya, Syria etc., wall street, globalisation? Trump would have some serious enemies among the fraternities responsible for those areas for a start, and they wanted the Democrat Hillary for president, after all  they bought and paid for her.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: mateinone on November 10, 2016, 01:29:26 am
I think it is highly unlikely there will be any major attempts and certainly very unlikely to be any successful attempts on his life.
A lot of people thought that Obama would rile far too many people and importantly the red-neck gun nuts, that he would be assassinated as well as they would refuse to have a black president.

I think Trump will be an awful president and this was the most unbelievable election in history, defying all logic, but now it has happened it was a perfect storm and was always likely all the way back to when he started his campaign with ridiculous comments about Mexico an rapists and gained attention and votes.

A similar phenomena is sweeping Europe and the Asia Pacific region and until it is absolutely two fingers to the the establishment, two fingers to political correctness and taking a soft stand and in America's case it is just them taking the exact stance someone like Russia would. Russians hate a soft leader, they want someone strong, they want someone that will stand up and not care if he says things that offend people.

I think in many ways that Trump is similar to Reagan (in the way that the American public view him), the world was worried that the US had a president that might just start a nuclear war in Reagan, the Russians believed he might just start one too (though I don't think that Russia believes that of Trump).

Ironically Reagan is also only president since FDR whose party won 3 elections straight.

The other thing this election has one is sent a message that the polls are flawed and that the American and World media won't drive and election result, in fact telling the American's they have to reject Trump may just be a fillip in Trumps armory because I think it is becoming apparent that the average American sees the media as part of the establishment they are rejecting.

It has been a scary world for the last few years and it just got scarier yesterday and the world is holding it's breath to see what it means for the different regions of the world, but all anyone can do is wait and see.

Very interesting times ahead


Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: sandsmere on November 10, 2016, 06:48:23 am
Pretty simple I reckon.
The American people aren't as silly as a lot of us thought.
Hillarys lieing, cheating and the general Clinton corruption over a lot of years has come back to Bite her on the Box.
Simple as that.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on November 10, 2016, 07:51:41 am
The election was not a shock, people need to wake up and stop believing what the media tell you to believe.

Hillary  was never going to beat Trump , Bernie Sanders would have won all those close states she lost.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on November 10, 2016, 08:05:46 am
The election was not a shock, people need to wake up and stop believing what the media tell you to believe.

Hillary  was never going to beat Trump , Bernie Sanders would have won all those close states she lost.

You've been hanging around me too much! :o

Seriously though, the media nuffies(theirs and ours) must be shizening themselves this morning, they just had their perceptions of significance immense self-worth shattered! Their hubris has had an ar5e kicking! You could see it in the faces of the plebs covering the events on TV, it was like they were thinking "How could those stupid voters get it so wrong!"

They are as mind-numbingly ignorant of their errors as Caro!

They'll be after Trump now, the only way they can feel they are right is to make him look bad! Be prepared for the bullsh1t to go to another level!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 10, 2016, 08:12:01 am
The election was not a shock, people need to wake up and stop believing what the media tell you to believe.

Hillary  was never going to beat Trump , Bernie Sanders would have won all those close states she lost.

The media is owned and operated by oligarchs and promotes their interests. This will be a challenge for Trump and it will be interesting to see how he meets this. There has been speculation that he would launch his own media empire but I'm not sure how that would work now he is president elect?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on November 10, 2016, 10:09:12 am
The media is owned and operated by oligarchs and promotes their interests. This will be a challenge for Trump and it will be interesting to see how he meets this. There has been speculation that he would launch his own media empire but I'm not sure how that would work now he is president elect?

If the media owners still had power he wouldn't be President, he has been overtly anti-the-established-media from the start of his campaign. The media thought they could build up their ratings using his sensationalism, then tear him down at the appropriate time, instead as the finish line approached he kicked them in the balls and crossed the line first!

Social media is undermining the influence of the established media and at the moment they are powerless to do anything about it, their revenue streams have shrunk massively. Unless of course they can get control of the likes of Facebook, Google and Twitter.

The Mainstream scoffed at the likes of Michael Moore, among many others, telling them what was happening in the back blocks. They refused to believe that California and Washington would bow down to the Midland states, that Bernie Sanders would have won, and that Trump resonates with the disenchanted everywhere.

I watched The Project last night, the likes of Waleed Aly and Carrie Bickmore pondering how can it be. They think that they speak for Joe Average, that they are part of the mainstream, they don't get that they are viewed as elite! Yet I wonder if they have ever asked, "Do you know who I am?" This sort of incredible foolishness is rife through the media, people that think they are one with the crew in the front bar!

The local equivalents of Michael Moore have been warning for some time that if our current parliament and media don't get their sh1te in order we will see the very same result next election, with the far right parties like Family First and The Hanson United Australia Party being the beneficiaries.

I find it ironic that the likes of Bolt are painting this as a result of the Left's arrogance, while the Left commentary claims it's the rise of the Extremist Right. Of course they are both to blame, as will be the case here in Australia, because they have become so similar and so disconnected from Joe Average, especially in the way they pander to minorities.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 10, 2016, 11:33:52 am
@LP

Agree with most of that post LP. Elitist trendy so-called intellectuals seem way out of touch with the average Joe and, like the mainstream media, seem largely unaware or uncaring of the social damage caused by the globalist agenda. The alternative media is certainly on the rise as a result and I don't think this has gone unnoticed by Trump! Nevertheless I still think he has his work cut out - some of the commentary is still very scathing of him - but we are definitely in for some interesting times.

PS. I'm not really always a fan of Mike Moore but he got this one dead right.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: tonyo on November 10, 2016, 01:31:07 pm
Who exactly is assassinating him? Not sure Democrats are pro
Gun and violence - that's Republican voters.

As someone said, he'll just be the loud mouthed figure head just like George W - others will be in charge.

Gee Pauline Hansen is thrilled. Say no more  :o

Pauline being thrilled is of little consequence, but Vladimir Putin being delighted is a whole other worry.  Don't think I'd like to be living in any of the Baltic states for the next few years......
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on November 10, 2016, 01:55:59 pm
Pauline being thrilled is of little consequence, but Vladimir Putin being delighted is a whole other worry.  Don't think I'd like to be living in any of the Baltic states for the next few years......

I'd think the Black Sea states will have a bigger issue given the previous blockades of the Dardanelles and Bosphorous!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 10, 2016, 02:38:11 pm
Pauline being thrilled is of little consequence, but Vladimir Putin being delighted is a whole other worry.  Don't think I'd like to be living in any of the Baltic states for the next few years......
Imagine the two morons getting together and hitting the turps. Anything could happen I reckon.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 10, 2016, 02:57:07 pm
I'd think the Black Sea states will have a bigger issue given the previous blockades of the Dardanelles and Bosphorous!

The whole Caucasus/Central Asian area has been and will be a key strategic area of conflict and one that the US has been very keen to control and influence - oil, gas, pipelines and geographically strategic. Be interesting to see how that plays out now between Trump and Putin.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: hotspur on November 10, 2016, 03:18:27 pm
If the media owners still had power he wouldn't be President, he has been overtly anti-the-established-media from the start of his campaign. The media thought they could build up their ratings using his sensationalism, then tear him down at the appropriate time, instead as the finish line approached he kicked them in the balls and crossed the line first!

Social media is undermining the influence of the established media and at the moment they are powerless to do anything about it, their revenue streams have shrunk massively. Unless of course they can get control of the likes of Facebook, Google and Twitter.

The Mainstream scoffed at the likes of Michael Moore, among many others, telling them what was happening in the back blocks. They refused to believe that California and Washington would bow down to the Midland states, that Bernie Sanders would have won, and that Trump resonates with the disenchanted everywhere.

I watched The Project last night, the likes of Waleed Aly and Carrie Bickmore pondering how can it be. They think that they speak for Joe Average, that they are part of the mainstream, they don't get that they are viewed as elite! Yet I wonder if they have ever asked, "Do you know who I am?" This sort of incredible foolishness is rife through the media, people that think they are one with the crew in the front bar!

The local equivalents of Michael Moore have been warning for some time that if our current parliament and media don't get their sh1te in order we will see the very same result next election, with the far right parties like Family First and The Hanson United Australia Party being the beneficiaries.

I find it ironic that the likes of Bolt are painting this as a result of the Left's arrogance, while the Left commentary claims it's the rise of the Extremist Right. Of course they are both to blame, as will be the case here in Australia, because they have become so similar and so disconnected from Joe Average, especially in the way they pander to minorities.
I am surprised a person as clever as you would watch that garbage The Project  .Mr Aly thinks he speaks for all of Australia,not me sorry ,havent watched it since he has been on   
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on November 10, 2016, 04:01:55 pm
..........................................................
I watched The Project last night, the likes of Waleed Aly and Carrie Bickmore pondering how can it be. They think that they speak for Joe Average, that they are part of the mainstream, they don't get that they are viewed as elite! Yet I wonder if they have ever asked, "Do you know who I am?" This sort of incredible foolishness is rife through the media, people that think they are one with the crew in the front bar!

...........................................


I don't watch the show, but Aly doesn't strike me as the "I think I speak for all Australians" type. He takes a position based on some sort of logic and intelligence, which is much better than the Bolts and Alan Jones' of this world. I would imagine he would, like most of those in the media, speak mainly for himself, expecting others who share his ideals and thought processes to come along for the ride. Unlike the right wing shock jocks, he does at least make some attempt to appeal to our better side. Whether or not "all Australians" agree with him is frankly irrelevant.

Quite apart from any of this, there's no such group as "all Australians".
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 10, 2016, 04:05:24 pm
The whole Caucasus/Central Asian area has been and will be a key strategic area of conflict and one that the US has been very keen to control and influence - oil, gas, pipelines and geographically strategic. Be interesting to see how that plays out now between Trump and Putin.

I expect newly ordained Russian citizen Steven Seagal will be the middle man in US/Russian negotiations...both VladP and the pony tailed one are very happy with Trump winning... :-X
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on November 10, 2016, 04:23:27 pm
I don't watch the show, but Aly doesn't strike me as the "I think I speak for all Australians" type. He takes a position based on some sort of logic and intelligence, which is much better than the Bolts and Alan Jones' of this world. I would imagine he would, like most of those in the media, speak mainly for himself, expecting others who share his ideals and thought processes to come along for the ride. Unlike the right wing shock jocks, he does at least make some attempt to appeal to our better side. Whether or not "all Australians" agree with him is frankly irrelevant.

Quite apart from any of this, there's no such group as "all Australians".

Same here.  I've read some of Aly's work and it does show logic and intelligence that's sadly lacking in the pronouncements of most Aussie media personalities and politicians.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LordLucifer on November 10, 2016, 07:08:12 pm
The riots & protests have already started !!!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on November 10, 2016, 08:21:00 pm
Quite apart from any of this, there's no such group as "all Australians".

But there are minorities and a majority, as Hilary Clinton discovered! ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on November 10, 2016, 08:38:29 pm
But there are minorities and a majority, as Hilary Clinton discovered! ;)

Unfortunately for Hillary, a majority wasn't good enough.

I wonder if the US will move to change the archaic electoral college system  ???
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on November 10, 2016, 08:52:01 pm
But there are minorities and a majority, as Hilary Clinton discovered! ;)

Whatever majorities, minorities, sub groups etc. were involved, it's a terrible result. Now we have Kim Jong-un, Trump and Putin.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: cookie2 on November 10, 2016, 08:54:59 pm
The riots & protests have already started !!!

Just saw that on the news. Looked more like a bunch of spoiled brats spitting the dummy and stamping their feet  because they didn't get what they wanted.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on November 10, 2016, 09:06:46 pm
The riots and protests will die out soon enough.
Just folk that won't accept a democratic process...rather bizarre really....when they would have been the first to condemn Trump for not accepting the result.

As for changing the electoral college system...it ain't going to happen ;)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on November 10, 2016, 09:42:26 pm
The riots and protests will die out soon enough.
Just folk that won't accept a democratic process...rather bizarre really....when they would have been the first to condemn Trump for not accepting the result.

As for changing the electoral college system...it ain't going to happen ;)

Even if "faithless electors" abstain or vote against the wishes of their state's majority?  It last happened in 2004, in a largely symbolic protest.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on November 10, 2016, 10:00:50 pm
Unfortunately for Hillary, a majority wasn't good enough.

I wonder if the US will move to change the archaic electoral college system  ???

Yes a lot of people do not realise she won the primary vote by a comfortable margin.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 10, 2016, 10:26:47 pm
Yes a lot of people do not realise she won the primary vote by a comfortable margin.

Read that Trump had 4 times the Latino vote...? :o
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on November 10, 2016, 10:40:05 pm
Unfortunately for Hillary, a majority wasn't good enough.

It happens under our system too.
Beazley's ALP got more votes than Howard's LNP on the two party preferred in 1998 but lost the election (80 seats to 67)

(Joh used to win in Qld with just his, Flo's and Russ Hinze's vote)

[flash=400,400]https://www.youtube.com/v/7l2doxjnn3Y[/flash]
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on November 11, 2016, 12:43:04 pm
Read that Trump had 4 times the Latino vote...? :o

It reminds me of Gillard's problems.

 - Women didn't want a woman!
 - Latino's don't want other Latino immigrants!
 - Muslim's do not trust Muslim immigrants!

The myths are self-perpetuating, so they vote Trump!

The feminist media are blaming men for Clinton's demise, but it was middle-aged or elderly white women that abandoned Clinton at the poles! The very people that should have been her cornerstone wanted Sanders and voted Trump in his absence!

Reminds me of the history of the US Women's Suffrage movement, some of the biggest Anti-Suffrage supporters were women!

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vPaYMwGBEig/URkRkGqC_LI/AAAAAAAAdoc/6v-an6NixJo/s1600/2759471017_8007fbf27e_z.jpg)
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on November 11, 2016, 12:45:47 pm
Its absolutely sexist to declare that Trump won only because his opponent had a vagina.

Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on November 11, 2016, 12:48:56 pm
Its absolutely sexist to declare that Trump won only because his opponent had a vagina.

If you go to many mainstream media sites today you can find stories from leading female journalists implying that is the case.

As for the facts, the exit-poles do not lie, they are just statistics!

It's a very grubby situation, it's looking more like an election result that has been as heavily crafted by foreign bloggers as it was the combatants! Conspiracy theorists will claim China and Russia are behind it, but I am not sure they need to look that far from home!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Thryleon on November 11, 2016, 12:53:42 pm
Imagine a world where you can say that a woman only won because she is one.


Tell me that isnt a sexist comment.

Why is it, that the feminists ask for equality yet believe the above is a reasonable argument??

Because historically they have been descriminated against??

This was a democratic process, and not enough equality arguments are being mounted against these feminists.  They want superiority not equality.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on November 11, 2016, 01:17:00 pm
This was a democratic process, and not enough equality arguments are being mounted against these feminists.  They want superiority not equality.

Isn't that what Affirmative Action and Positive Discrimination is all about?

Quotas were never a viable solution for dealing with discrimination!

Some of the more extreme feminist commentary today has refused to accept Women would vote against a Woman. So they have drawn the long bow and concluded that those women who voted against Clinton did so on racists grounds conforming to some alleged Trump anti-black anti-immigration agenda. Yet it appears Latino's and Muslim's voted Trump, this is conveniently ignored in today's extreme commentary!

I don't know what the answer is to any of this stuff, but it seems "they" whoever "they" are have become their own worst enemy!
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on November 11, 2016, 01:38:39 pm
Trump said he was going to bring blue collar jobs back to America while Hillary labelled the people Trump was targeting "deplorables", then she got her rich celebrity friends to put on concerts and endorse how great she is. How could she fail?



Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on November 11, 2016, 02:32:29 pm
I'm guessing Trump's idea of blue collar jobs is the "one buck a day" variety, just like Gina Rinehart

And if they don't like it, well, there's always waterboarding.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: sandsmere on November 11, 2016, 05:25:20 pm
I heard Bill was feeling sorry for Hilary this morning so he said to her " all is not lost . You could still become our president. Remember Nelson Mandela didn't become a president until he'd done 27 years in gaol ".
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on November 12, 2016, 09:21:18 am
 Apparently Paris Hilton is gearing up to run for the next presidency.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on November 12, 2016, 09:59:15 am
I'm surprised Schwarzenegger hasn't nominated all these years. If ever there was a perfect presidential candidate..........

Bring on the empty horses. 
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on November 12, 2016, 10:03:06 am
I'm surprised Schwarzenegger hasn't nominated all these years. If ever there was a perfect presidential candidate..........

Bring on the empty horses.

He wasn't ....

[flash=400,400]https://www.youtube.com/v/wRxAs3YZjcc[/flash]
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: DJC on November 12, 2016, 10:11:14 am
I'm surprised Schwarzenegger hasn't nominated all these years. If ever there was a perfect presidential candidate..........

Bring on the empty horses.

Arnie is ineligible because he's not a natural born American.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on November 12, 2016, 10:22:35 am
Arnie is ineligible because he's not a natural born American.

http://uspolitics.about.com/od/presidenc1/fl/Does-Presidents-Have-to-Be-Born-On-US-Soil.htm

Apparently some ambiguity about this point. 

EDIT : but it would not apply to Arnie, as neither he nor his parents were American born.
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on November 12, 2016, 12:42:51 pm
http://uspolitics.about.com/od/presidenc1/fl/Does-Presidents-Have-to-Be-Born-On-US-Soil.htm

Apparently some ambiguity about this point. 

EDIT : but it would not apply to Arnie, as neither he nor his parents were American born.

There actually was some talk a while back that he was doing a bit of lobbying to see whether there could be a change to the constitution that would enable him to make a run.

[flash=400,400]https://www.youtube.com/v/-OZ_R3YpB1Y[/flash]
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: PaulP on November 12, 2016, 04:10:08 pm
There actually was some talk a while back that he was doing a bit of lobbying to see whether there could be a change to the constitution that would enable him to make a run.

[flash=400,400]https://www.youtube.com/v/-OZ_R3YpB1Y[/flash]

Thanks lods. That sounds more like him. Why stop at gov'na ?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: madbluboy on November 15, 2016, 07:20:06 am
[flash=400,300]https://www.youtube.com/v/GLG9g7BcjKs[/flash]
Title: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 24, 2017, 01:10:10 pm
We I know we have the US Election thread but I am sure we will get plenty of content for a thread dedicated to the Trump government. So I thought it might be worth starting a Trump dedicated thread.

This is the thread for the Trumpled, Trump Memes, Trump Facts(Alternative Facts), Trump Truths(Alternative Truths, aka lies), Trumpality(Alternative Reality), Trumpisms, Trumponomics(Alternative Economics), Trumpvironment(Alternative Environment) or general Trumpeting.

I'm sure we'll find some fodder.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on January 24, 2017, 01:27:31 pm
Friday 20th January 2017
Inauguration day.

The End of the Beginning or the Beginning of the End. ;D
(Well it's Tuesday and we're still here.)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: malo on January 24, 2017, 03:28:54 pm
"We're on the Eve of Destruction" - Barry McGuire
"This is The End" - the Doors
"Well I believe it all is coming to an end" - Matchbox Twenty
"It's the end of the world (as we know it)..........

.......and I feel fine" - REM

 ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on January 24, 2017, 03:42:03 pm
"We're on the Eve of Destruction" - Barry McGuire
"This is The End" - the Doors
"Well I believe it all is coming to an end" - Matchbox Twenty
"It's the end of the world (as we know it)..........

.......and I feel fine" - REM

 ;D
Fool on the Hill - it's come true after 50 years........
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 24, 2017, 06:10:27 pm
Friday 20th January 2017
Inauguration day.

The End of the Beginning or the Beginning of the End. ;D
(Well it's Tuesday and we're still here.)

The end of the US as the world super power began a while ago now, but, as with Nero and Rome, you need a ponce at the helm to fiddle whilst the crash and burn happens, and who better than the grand sociopath himself.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on January 24, 2017, 06:34:11 pm
I'd agree....But I haven't been right about him since this thing started...So I'm doing a "reverse George" and saying he'll be the best president since Richard Nixon  ;D

(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.192170742.9875/mwo,420x420,iphone_7_snap-pad,420x460,f8f8f8.u3.jpg)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 24, 2017, 07:21:05 pm
I'd agree....But I haven't been right about him since this thing started...So I'm doing a "reverse George" and saying he'll be the best president since Richard Nixon  ;D

(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.192170742.9875/mwo,420x420,iphone_7_snap-pad,420x460,f8f8f8.u3.jpg)

 :)) :)) Yes, he's been baffling and oh so slippery. Amazing what you can get away with when you deny everything, admit to nothing, promise the world and everything you do and all the people you appoint are 'great' and 'amazing' and 'fantastic.' I wonder how long he can get away with this grand hood-wink? The sociopath's enemy / Achilles heel is accountability/responsibility!!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Professer E on January 24, 2017, 07:33:26 pm
Sounds like a certain cabinet a Mr Abbot appointed.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 24, 2017, 08:10:11 pm
Bill Clinton seemed happy at the Inauguration, couldnt take his eyes off Ivanka Trump. ;)...loved the photo of Hilary
giving him the evil stare....

One of Trump's new policies: Reduce gun violence by empowering law-abiding gun owners to defend themselves??........ ??? ???
The non law-abiding ones can just keep on doing what they have been doing obviously.....
Trumps next move should be in line with the film the " Purge"..one day of the year just dedicated to blowing away who ever
takes your fancy....by law abiding gun owners of course... :P
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 24, 2017, 08:11:14 pm
Did anyone else see the irony in a bunch of blokes in suits watching another bloke in a suit sign an executive order that will limit the ability of women to make decisions about their reproductive biology in countries far away?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 24, 2017, 08:14:55 pm
Did anyone else see the irony in a bunch of blokes in suits watching another bloke in a suit sign an executive order that will limit the ability of women to make decisions about their reproductive biology in countries far away?

Tony Abbott would have been applauding....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 24, 2017, 08:26:07 pm
I liked Obama, seemed like an articulate, intelligent and genuine guy who tried to make a difference.
Trump seems to be the complete opposite.
God Bless America...your'e gonna need it!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LoveNavy on January 24, 2017, 08:48:39 pm
Did anyone else see the irony in a bunch of blokes in suits watching another bloke in a suit sign an executive order that will limit the ability of women to make decisions about their reproductive biology in countries far away?

Given the prejudiced diatribe favoring the privileged and powerful I've heard thus far, I'd say this is more of the same.
I expect there will be a lot more to come that will result in average Jo suffering.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 29, 2017, 01:23:00 pm
Trump's executive order banning folk from seven Muslim countries entering the USA has been stayed by a Federal Court judge.

I expect that this will be the first of many judicial challenges to Trump's rule.  I can't help thinking that Trump will be lucky to see out his first term.  Unfortunately, Pence is probably even more extreme  :(
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 29, 2017, 01:56:45 pm
Did you read that Trump's "Muslim Ban" allegedly excludes many countries that have a Trump Investment, like Pakistan, Afghanistan and Turkey!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on January 29, 2017, 03:37:21 pm
Did you read that Trump's "Muslim Ban" allegedly excludes many countries that have a Trump Investment, like Pakistan, Afghanistan and Turkey!

Not to mention Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, the two main sponsors of ISIS.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 29, 2017, 03:40:39 pm
Canada has agreed to take the fish that Trump rejects, in this case muslim refugees, anyone who has been to Canada knows how hard they do border security so for them to open the doors to annoy the USA is very amusing...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 30, 2017, 05:42:36 pm
Not to mention Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, the two main sponsors of ISIS.

Beat me to it, Spotted One and Fluffy Biscuit. The hypocrisy is breathtaking. And the Muslims responsible (so called) for the 9/11 attacks all hail from the nations you guys mentioned, not from the Muslim nations that c0ckhead has banned.  ??? ???
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 31, 2017, 08:02:52 am
Beat me to it, Spotted One and Fluffy Biscuit. The hypocrisy is breathtaking. And the Muslims responsible (so called) for the 9/11 attacks all hail from the nations you guys mentioned, not from the Muslim nations that c0ckhead has banned.  ??? ???

If the rumours are true about the US Visa requirements, I've a bunch of friends who are financially cooked as the need to travel to the US for business regularly but spent two months touring some of the banned countries last year!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: sandsmere on January 31, 2017, 08:27:53 am
Well it was the election with the 2 worst candidates ever and 1 had to win.

When the alternative was the crooked, lying, money-laundering Clintons, the result doesn't seem so bad to me.


Australia could do with some changes to our immigration laws too.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on January 31, 2017, 10:21:26 am
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/america-dropped-26171-bombs-2016-obama-legacy (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/america-dropped-26171-bombs-2016-obama-legacy)

for all those still missing the good ol' Obama days!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on January 31, 2017, 10:55:26 am
It's a circus (as we thought it would be) and he's the ringmaster

He made some promises during the election campaign and these first couple of weeks are about him showing he can keep them but...

He promised to build a wall that will now resemble a flyscreen.
Mexico will pay...but now indirectly ::)
In fact what will happen if he slaps a tax on Mexican products is that folk will buy American instead, which is his aim

He promised to ban immigration from Muslim dominated countries until it could be properly vetted....what we get is a ban from selected countries for a period of 90-120 days.
That will be over in a blink, but a promise kept.

He's kept his promises in a half-hearted fashion. He can say he kept them... but he's got the world in a tizz.

Problem is it's not the world that counts and as criticism mounts overseas he expands his own base locally as americans become defensive about that criticism...protesters we see in the streets aren't Trump supporters anyway so they're protesting to the converted.

He's a Chaos Lord and he's being fed exactly what he wants at the moment.

The strange thing is that the group of people who will be effective in stopping him going on his merry way are the Republican lawmakers, if they have the will...and that's where it sits at the moment.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 31, 2017, 10:58:41 am
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/america-dropped-26171-bombs-2016-obama-legacy (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/america-dropped-26171-bombs-2016-obama-legacy)

for all those still missing the good ol' Obama days!

Just a quick question Flyboy.

Under the current Trump regime and potentially coming from a pro-Trump source, the alleged source Micah Zenko apparently defends Trump's security policy and is the author of a book titled Red: How to Win by "Thinking" like the Enemy(Some think it's basically "An Eye for an Eye" manifesto!), how do we know if this is a "Real" or "Alternative" fact?

I cannot say I've read Micah's book, and I'm also not sure if the assertions or commentary that he is pro-Trump are accurate, but there is enough of that subject matter out there to raise the question!

Who do we trust in this debate, liars who conceal their lies, or liars who is blatant about lying?

The world is now in an awful situation, public opinion and policy is dominated by racists, capitalists and racist capitalists. Both sides of the debate are finger pointing f-knuckles, here and abroad!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 31, 2017, 11:16:44 am
If the rumours are true about the US Visa requirements, I've a bunch of friends who are financially cooked as the need to travel to the US for business regularly but spent two months touring some of the banned countries last year!

Maybe, I heard a factoid that the Visa requirements were not so strict if you travelled on your US passport.

So dual nationals will not be adversely affected provided they travel on their US passport.

There is so much one sided journalism going on on that it can only be called propaganda and its hard to check what are the actual fall out of these decisions.

On that topic, the abortion point is interesting.  There is some emotive debating going on surrounding the rights of women, and how men are deciding on those rights, but that is a straw man's (or woman's) argument.  The funding decision is made by the appropriate party (people in power) regarding how they will fund groups in terms of providing information to the public.  This doesnt mean that the abortions are unavailable, its a policy choice, based on a funding model but the way its reported is extremely irresponsible aiming at directing public opinion rather than providing facts.

It requires some heavy digging to discover that, and IMHO, thats not the way these topics should be discussed.  It renders discussions defunct and seems to be the current social media warfare trend of just throwing mud and then making it stick.  I don't like it, and thats a bigger issue than any policy or decision the Trump administration has signed off thus far.

That also doesn't mean I agree with any of the above decisions.  Its all flaky check box ticking with no substance at this point, but I expected nothing less so soon into a new presidency.  I have seen some emotive arguments put forward, but emotions shouldnt drive these decisions but cold hard, calculation and facts.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 31, 2017, 11:21:10 am
Maybe, I heard a factoid that the Visa requirements were not so strict if you travelled on your US passport.

So dual nationals will not be adversely affected provided they travel on their US passport.

There is so much one sided journalism going on on that it can only be called propaganda and its hard to check what are the actual fall out of these decisions....

Agreed about the reporting, both sides are going down the "Alternative Fact" route and Joe Average has very little way to verify the facts.

On the VISA issue, fair enough in regards to US citizens Thry, but I wasn't referring to US nationals I'm referring to Australian's who have established business dealings in the US and can apparently no longer get a VISA to visit there due to extended holidays they took last year traveling through various blacklisted countries. Some of them were volunteering on their holidays as part of humanitarian visits with MSF!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 31, 2017, 11:33:41 am
Agreed about the reporting, both sides are going down the "Alternative Fact" route and Joe Average has very little way to verify the facts.

On the VISA issue, fair enough in regards to US citizens Thry, but I wasn't referring to US nationals I'm referring to Australian's who have established business dealings in the US and can apparently no longer get a VISA to visit there due to extended holidays they took last year traveling through various blacklisted countries. Some of them were volunteering on their holidays as part of humanitarian visits with MSF!

If that is the case, then that means they are just going to have to negotiate what they do and how they do it.

Lets not pretend this is a game changer either.  Video conferencing, proxy negotiations, and various other methods of doing business can and will be exploited in these scenarios.

Either way, the reporting on the Trump administration makes the HUN's EFC drugs saga reporting look balanced which is a reason in itself to be skeptical of all we are being fed by the media.

Is it because the people who run governments cannot sway Trump in the same way that they used to with other leaders??
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on January 31, 2017, 11:40:52 am
Just a quick question Flyboy.

Under the current Trump regime and potentially coming from a pro-Trump source, the alleged source Micah Zenko apparently defends Trump's security policy and is the author of a book titled Red: How to Win by "Thinking" like the Enemy(Some think it's basically "An Eye for an Eye" manifesto!), how do we know if this is a "Real" or "Alternative" fact?

I cannot say I've read Micah's book, and I'm also not sure if the assertions or commentary that he is pro-Trump are accurate, but there is enough of that subject matter out there to raise the question!

Who do we trust in this debate, liars who conceal their lies, or liars who is blatant about lying?

The world is now in an awful situation, public opinion and policy is dominated by racists, capitalists and racist capitalists. Both sides of the debate are finger pointing f-knuckles, here and abroad!

The same question could be asked of any piece of media, under any political regime.....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: sandsmere on January 31, 2017, 11:54:48 am
It's a circus (as we thought it would be) and he's the ringmaster

He made some promises during the election campaign and these first couple of weeks are about him showing he can keep them but...

He promised to build a wall that will now resemble a flyscreen.
Mexico will pay...but now indirectly ::)
In fact what will happen if he slaps a tax on Mexican products is that folk will buy American instead, which is his aim

He promised to ban immigration from Muslim dominated countries until it could be properly vetted....what we get is a ban from selected countries for a period of 90-120 days.
That will be over in a blink, but a promise kept.

He's kept his promises in a half-hearted fashion. He can say he kept them... but he's got the world in a tizz.

Problem is it's not the world that counts and as criticism mounts overseas he expands his own base locally as americans become defensive about that criticism...protesters we see in the streets aren't Trump supporters anyway so they're protesting to the converted.

He's a Chaos Lord and he's being fed exactly what he wants at the moment.

The strange thing is that the group of people who will be effective in stopping him going on his merry way are the Republican lawmakers, if they have the will...and that's where it sits at the moment.

Trump has already kept more promises than Tony Abbott did during his entire period as PM.  8) 8)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 31, 2017, 11:56:28 am

The same question could be asked of any piece of media, under any political regime.....

of late, I think the media has become less balanced than it used to be.

We used to get a story and then were told tidbits without being fed an opinion.

Now we get opinion pieces with tidbits of a story in order to sway our opinion, and it always goes to the emotive point of the story in order to garner the appropriate reaction from the appropriate people.

I don't like it.  I haven't seen propaganda like this in my lifetime previously, and I think its going to get worse and rather than focus on the topics, I think its best that people start analysing the media, their sources, and what the goals are.

Currently, the destabilisation of President Trump's regime is all I have seen for the last 6 months.  None of it based on actual facts, but more to do with WHO he is.  That in itself is cause for concern, and it worries me that I see no one talking about that aspect of things.

I want to see analytics, but alas, I fear we will never get the chance because I tried to raise this point on facebook and was quickly howelled down by people who didnt see what I was actually trying to say.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 31, 2017, 12:15:23 pm
The strange thing is that the group of people who will be effective in stopping him going on his merry way are the Republican lawmakers, if they have the will...and that's where it sits at the moment.

I reckon the people who will stop him are the lawyers and judges.  Americans won't abide unconstitutional actions by either side.

As one commentator put it, Trump had better start use grown up lawyers to vet his executive orders.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 31, 2017, 01:00:57 pm
Trump has already kept more promises than Tony Abbott did during his entire period as PM.  8) 8)

And you see that as a positive!

Trump was voted in by people who think he cares about them, will get them jobs, while he replaces locals with low cost foreigners in his hotels! He may deport those workers and replace them with locals, but the devil is in the detail, jobs at what wage and with what lifestyle? Lods makes points that are very valid.

Trump also has an intellectual support base, they mostly see him as the lesser of two evils because he is openly blatant about lying! But they are yet to see the detail as well.

Some support Trump because they unconditionally support Wikileaks, they point to the Clinton's history. They seem to be accepting of any web facts without supporting evidence, that is just as weak on either side of the argument, it's cherry picking, and they accuse each other of cherry picking constantly. But even so, it's hard to argue Trump is a better option, just because he is blatantly different justifies nothing!

In any case, he isn't really delivering on those promises, as Lods points out. It seems it is just another smokescreen designed to placate the gullible! The republican's are patting the American and Global public on the head Benny Hill style!

Those foreign investments he holds, Russia, Egypt, UAE, Saudi, what are those shares worth today. Trump has always claimed he is a billionaire, a fact questioned by some other billionaires, perhaps he has found the way to make it so!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on January 31, 2017, 01:07:11 pm
Most of what Trump does and says publicly is pure window dressing. If you want to follow his main game keep an eye on what Rex Tillerson is up to.  ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 31, 2017, 01:08:32 pm
Most of what Trump does and says publicly is pure window dressing. If you want to follow his main game keep an eye on what Rex Tillerson is up to.  ;)

Very cynical Cookie2, not everybody is about the money! ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on January 31, 2017, 01:17:35 pm
Very cynical Cookie2, not everybody is about the money! ::)

That's not specifically what I had in mind.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 31, 2017, 02:45:29 pm
Trump's business nous is overrated, his father made all the money while his son has lost most  of what he has invested in failed business ventures.
Trump will force inflation up in the USA and affect the world economy, his lack of understanding could easily produce another GFC if he is allowed to do what he likes.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 31, 2017, 03:54:15 pm
Further to EB's post, consider the proposed 20% tax on goods imported from Mexico:

Apart from increasing the price of imported avocados, etc by 20%, the forced use of more expensive US-manufactured automotive components will force up the cost of motor vehicles, and this will apply to other parts of the US manufacturing industry too.

It's a classic example of what happens when simplistic, populist solutions are applied to complex, real world issues.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on January 31, 2017, 04:30:43 pm
Some economists maintain though that lower offshore costs only benefit a very small percentage of people in the US in terms of higher corporate profits and exec bonus's?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Amers on January 31, 2017, 04:44:29 pm
I think its best that people start analysing the media, their sources, and what the goals are.


Totally agree with this Thry, the media is absolutely agenda driven, and if all we do is swallow what they are feeding us, then we are just sheep going along for the ride. The chlorine in the water must be working.....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 31, 2017, 05:04:42 pm
Totally agree with this Thry, the media is absolutely agenda driven, and if all we do is swallow what they are feeding us, then we are just sheep going along for the ride. The chlorine in the water must be working.....

Media dont control the the sharemarket in the USA, if that goes down so does the rest of the world. the honeymoon could be over for US sharemarket....this latest immigration fiasco already has US financial advisors telling clients to put  more money into cash and bail out of stocks..the US economy is leveraged against a lot of debt due to the last GFC as is the Aus economy...the debt in Aus has doubled since the Abbott days, Scott Morrison is running around trying to cover it up but the media are all over him. Next GFC the Banks will freeze all assets like they did in Greece, not a lot of people know the Banks signed agreements with Govts both here and in the US to freeze all accounts if a GFC occurs.
Look forward to lining up for two hours to get your $50 a week like they did in Greece if a financial numptie like Trump isnt reigned in and given a lesson in economic common sense...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on January 31, 2017, 05:09:07 pm
Totally agree with this Thry, the media is absolutely agenda driven, and if all we do is swallow what they are feeding us, then we are just sheep going along for the ride. The chlorine in the water must be working.....

Yep. The first thing to do is look at who actually owns the media.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: sydneybluesfan on January 31, 2017, 05:12:45 pm
Some economists maintain though that lower offshore costs only benefit a very small percentage of people in the US in terms of higher corporate profits and exec bonus's?

But all consumers, especially those on lower and middle incomes, benefit from being able to buy 'cheaper' imported goods - whether it's food, electronics, cars etc. It increases their purchasing power, and puts downward pressure on inflation.

If all imported goods slugged with tariffs of between 20% [Mexico] and 45% [China] then the impact of these higher prices are felt disproportionately by the poor. And anyone who thinks that this will result in factories re-opening in the USA is delusional. And don't forget that all of the US's trading partners will retaliate in kind, which will impact on American businesses that have current export markets - which leads to redundancies and a likely recession.

Trade liberalisation has been embraced almost universally since the end of WWII for a simple reason - it works far better than the alternative. That's not to say it's perfect, and their are always going to be some 'losers' in individual industries, but the net benefit to countries and the efficient allocation of capital have been proven for nearly 70 years and this guy is going to come and try and turn this all on it's head and think it will not create far more problems than it solves??   
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on January 31, 2017, 05:20:22 pm
Media dont control the the sharemarket in the USA, if that goes down so does the rest of the world. the honeymoon could be over for US sharemarket....this latest immigration fiasco already has US financial advisors telling clients to put  more money into cash and bail out of stocks..the US economy is leveraged against a lot of debt due to the last GFC as is the Aus economy...the debt in Aus has doubled since the Abbott days, Scott Morrison is running around trying to cover it up but the media are all over him. Next GFC the Banks will freeze all assets like they did in Greece, not a lot of people know the Banks signed agreements with Govts both here and in the US to freeze all accounts if a GFC occurs.
Look forward to lining up for two hours to get your $50 a week like they did in Greece if a financial numptie like Trump isnt reigned in and given a lesson in economic common sense...

The US is also looking at doing away with high denomination bank notes as has occured in India, restricting the amount of ready cash available and forcing electronic payments as far as possible. This would place much greater central control over money and enable bank "bail in "s to prevent bank failures. All part of global asset redistribution.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on January 31, 2017, 05:30:27 pm
But all consumers, especially those on lower and middle incomes, benefit from being able to buy 'cheaper' imported goods - whether it's food, electronics, cars etc. It increases their purchasing power, and puts downward pressure on inflation.

If all imported goods slugged with tariffs of between 20% [Mexico] and 45% [China] then the impact of these higher prices are felt disproportionately by the poor. And anyone who thinks that this will result in factories re-opening in the USA is delusional. And don't forget that all of the US's trading partners will retaliate in kind, which will impact on American businesses that have current export markets - which leads to redundancies and a likely recession.

Trade liberalisation has been embraced almost universally since the end of WWII for a simple reason - it works far better than the alternative. That's not to say it's perfect, and their are always going to be some 'losers' in individual industries, but the net benefit to countries and the efficient allocation of capital have been proven for nearly 70 years and this guy is going to come and try and turn this all on it's head and think it will not create far more problems than it solves??  

The huge off shoring of jobs especially in the US has resulted in working and middle class real wages stagnating over the past twenty five years at least and a huge loss in tax revenue. I'm not a fan of Trump but if you think current global trade liberalisation practices are designed for the net benefit of the average Joe well best of luck.


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 31, 2017, 05:39:08 pm
Some economists maintain though that lower offshore costs only benefit a very small percentage of people in the US in terms of higher corporate profits and exec bonus's?

The people who will have to pay more for avocados and Cadillacs will be hurting in the hip pocket and that will eventually translate to votes.  Those who benefit from corporate profits and executive bonuses will continue to benefit regardless of manufacturing location, tariffs, taxes or whatever.  I think Trump understands the second part, particularly the bit about taxes  ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on January 31, 2017, 05:51:28 pm
The people who will have to pay more for avocados and Cadillacs will be hurting in the hip pocket and that will eventually translate to votes.  Those who benefit from corporate profits and executive bonuses will continue to benefit regardless of manufacturing location, tariffs, taxes or whatever.  I think Trump understands the second part, particularly the bit about taxes  ::)

Maybe you need to talk to the folks who buy potato's and can't afford a new Cadi? Those who can't get a job?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 31, 2017, 06:29:03 pm
Maybe you need to talk to the folks who buy potato's and can't afford a new Cadi? Those who can't get a job?

The analyst I listened to made it very clear that imposing a 20% tax on a major trading partner would push up prices across the board, hence my avos and Cadis examples, but would have most impact on those least able to afford price increases - and who also eat a lot of guacamole  :).  There's also the issue of job losses among up to 6M US residents involved directly or indirectly in businesses that rely on trade with Mexico.


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on January 31, 2017, 07:08:50 pm
The analyst I listened to made it very clear that imposing a 20% tax on a major trading partner would push up prices across the board, hence my avos and Cadis examples, but would have most impact on those least able to afford price increases - and who also eat a lot of guacamole  :).  There's also the issue of job losses among up to 6M US residents involved directly or indirectly in businesses that rely on trade with Mexico.

Which analyst is that then?  :)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 31, 2017, 07:34:58 pm
Which analyst is that then?  :)

I have enough trouble remembering what they say, let alone their names  :)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: sydneybluesfan on January 31, 2017, 07:42:40 pm
The huge off shoring of jobs especially in the US has resulted in working and middle class real wages stagnating over the past twenty five years at least and a huge loss in tax revenue. I'm not a fan of Trump but if you think current global trade liberalisation practices are designed for the net benefit of the average Joe well best of luck.
This is undoubtedly a pandora's box discussion - but there are always going to be winners and losers in any economic policy and depending on where you sit on that spectrum will inform your view. Under free trade high cost / low quality industries often struggle and will eventually close [eg the car industry here], but the flip side is that export markets for efficient or high quality goods or services open up and expand. If you work on line at Ford you probably think it sucks, but if you work on the line at Blackmores you are cheering.

But in both cases you can drive home in a cheap car and watch your LCD panel that you bought online from Kogan for $300.

I think in western societies we also tend to forget that trade liberalisation has significantly increased the economic wealth of 3rd world countries and pulled millions [billions] of people out of abject poverty over the last 50 years. And again your view on whether working for a $1 a day in a Bangladeshi sweat shop is better than a mud hut and a subsistence lifestyle depends on your world view.

The issue for me is that the 'problem' of high unemployment in certain sectors or regions [remembering that the overall rate is 4.9% - historically low] and real wages you mentioned will both be made worse under a high tariff regime because a/ prices for the $500b of stuff the US import will go up so consumers pay more but their wages will stay the same, and b/ existing export markets will be made more difficult to access due to the retaliation allowed by the WTO. So prices go up, and unemployment also goes up - how does this help the average Joe?? 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 31, 2017, 07:45:50 pm
Which analyst is that then?  :)

Not the same bloke but a similar analysis:

Quote
Experts say a tariff would raise a mountain of concerns about U.S. jobs, the prices of products, and who actually pays for the wall.
"The notion that a 20% tariff is a way of forcing Mexico to pay for the wall, it's just a falsehood. It's a way of forcing American consumers to pay for the wall," says Edward Alden a trade expert at the Council on Foreign Relations.

Here's why.

First, about 6 million U.S. jobs depend on trade with Mexico, according to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. Experts say those jobs would be jeopardized if Trump restricts trade with Mexico.

Americans will very likely face higher prices for many things -- from cars and computers to avocados and Corona. A litany of products imported from Mexico would be more expensive.

Companies from Ford (F) and GM (GM) to retailers like Walmart (WMT) and Best Buy (BBY) will likely be hit hard.

Taxing Mexican imports affects many U.S. companies that send parts south of the border to be assembled. About 40% of the parts in a typical Mexican import originate in the United States. For example, before a car arrives at a local dealership, its parts criss-cross the U.S, Mexican and Canadian borders. It's how supply chains are used today.

There are other less obvious ways a blunt tariff could come back to bite Americans. Higher prices on some products mean that Americans would have less money to spend on others.

That would end up costing jobs. That's what happened in 2009 after President Obama used tariffs on Chinese tires. It cost more jobs than it saved because prices for tires went up, one study found.

And a Trump tariff would apply to many more products, so the ripple effects would be a lot broader.

That brings us to who pays for the wall. When the U.S. government applies a tariff on Mexican goods shipped into the U.S., Mexican companies don't pay the tariff -- American companies pay it. Companies usually pass the increased cost of goods down to consumers, hence the higher price tag.
So yes, a 20% tariff would pay for the wall. But Mexico would not be paying for it. American consumers would ultimately pay the price. Literally.

The last point is interesting; US consumers would actually pay for the wall  :))
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on January 31, 2017, 08:00:13 pm
https://dumbrunner.com/news-blog/2017/1/27/with-executive-order-trump-bans-metric-race-distances

 ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on January 31, 2017, 08:05:42 pm
Not the same bloke but a similar analysis:

The last point is interesting; US consumers would actually pay for the wall  :))

You lost me after "Experts say". There are other "experts" who would not agree.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on January 31, 2017, 08:21:27 pm
This is undoubtedly a pandora's box discussion - but there are always going to be winners and losers in any economic policy and depending on where you sit on that spectrum will inform your view. Under free trade high cost / low quality industries often struggle and will eventually close [eg the car industry here], but the flip side is that export markets for efficient or high quality goods or services open up and expand. If you work on line at Ford you probably think it sucks, but if you work on the line at Blackmores you are cheering.

But in both cases you can drive home in a cheap car and watch your LCD panel that you bought online from Kogan for $300.

I think in western societies we also tend to forget that trade liberalisation has significantly increased the economic wealth of 3rd world countries and pulled millions [billions] of people out of abject poverty over the last 50 years. And again your view on whether working for a $1 a day in a Bangladeshi sweat shop is better than a mud hut and a subsistence lifestyle depends on your world view.

The issue for me is that the 'problem' of high unemployment in certain sectors or regions [remembering that the overall rate is 4.9% - historically low] and real wages you mentioned will both be made worse under a high tariff regime because a/ prices for the $500b of stuff the US import will go up so consumers pay more but their wages will stay the same, and b/ existing export markets will be made more difficult to access due to the retaliation allowed by the WTO. So prices go up, and unemployment also goes up - how does this help the average Joe??

All well and good, but be prepared for the inevitable backlash from the losers, as we've already witnessed with Brexit and Trump or is this merely to be seen as the winging of the deplorables. Also, check out type of "jobs" used to calculate the present unemployment number. Not many of us would want them for ourselves or our children.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: sydneybluesfan on January 31, 2017, 08:54:39 pm
All well and good, but be prepared for the inevitable backlash from the losers, as we've already witnessed with Brexit and Trump or is this merely to be seen as the winging of the deplorables. Also, check out type of "jobs" used to calculate the present unemployment number. Not many of us would want them for ourselves or our children.

I agree with you - this all about the winners and the losers, and at the moment the losers are surely having there say.

The really interesting thing for me in all this is the 'inevitable backlash from the losers' when the strategy of protectionism which is being pursued ATM doesn't deliver any benefits to the domestic US citizens, most things cost more, the steel mills don't re-open, the stock market tanks and they are in a recession [depression] that they can't get out of because the rest of the world has closed their doors.

I fully agree that their are huge structural issues in the US [and UK] for those at the bottom end that need to be addressed, but starting a trade war is surely only going to make the situation worse for them - then who do they blame / turn too??
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 31, 2017, 09:19:25 pm
Tariffs don't work anywhere, but neither does free trade, under the UN HSC Treaty countries are free to apply their own duties.

So when I export something to China or India they whack a 27% or 33% Import Duty on those items. While the very same countries can deliver stuff to local companies and Australia puts 10% GST on them!

Not so free trade!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on February 01, 2017, 08:04:46 am
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/migrants-unemployment-rate-among-new-australians-doubles/news-story/143d7c30585c9bec2cf17ceec6851fab
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 01, 2017, 08:09:22 am
I agree with you - this all about the winners and the losers, and at the moment the losers are surely having there say.

The really interesting thing for me in all this is the 'inevitable backlash from the losers' when the strategy of protectionism which is being pursued ATM doesn't deliver any benefits to the domestic US citizens, most things cost more, the steel mills don't re-open, the stock market tanks and they are in a recession [depression] that they can't get out of because the rest of the world has closed their doors.

I fully agree that their are huge structural issues in the US [and UK] for those at the bottom end that need to be addressed, but starting a trade war is surely only going to make the situation worse for them - then who do they blame / turn too??

I believe we are witnessing the scene setting or conditioning phase of the Trump era ATM, with him confirming to his faithful that he is a man who keeps his promises and makes good on his threats. His real agenda is yet to emerge but from what I can make out it will focus on realigning US defence and foreign policy strategies, moving away from those that have created such disasters in the Middle East. Oil and gas will be central to this hence the appointment of Rex Tillerson. Just my thoughts, worrying times ahead.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 01, 2017, 08:25:34 am
Robert Kuttner writes about the inevitability of impeachment of the "malignant narcissist" in Huffington Post:

Quote
Given the sheer danger to the Republic as well as to the Republicans, Trump’s impeachment will happen. The only question is how grave a catastrophe America faces first.

I wonder how much that catastrophe will impact on our economy  ???
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 01, 2017, 09:25:04 am
I believe we are witnessing the scene setting or conditioning phase of the Trump era ATM, with him confirming to his faithful that he is a man who keeps his promises and makes good on his threats. His real agenda is yet to emerge but from what I can make out it will focus on realigning US defence and foreign policy strategies, moving away from those that have created such disasters in the Middle East. Oil and gas will be central to this hence the appointment of Rex Tillerson. Just my thoughts, worrying times ahead.

We're in "phony war" stage of the battle.
Trump is setting up his fortifications before he starts building his castle..... while under constant attacks from his opponents.
Whether that castle ends up being Camelot or Mt Doom remains to be seen.
Now is the best time for the opposition to attack, throw a whole lot of negatives out there that can be used to undermine him down the track, before he's too entrenched...especially when he's making decisions that re-inforce some of the worst fears of his incumbency.

The problem is it's creating uncertainty and hysteria.
Sure there is a lot of outright lying that can be seen, but there is also exaggeration and misinformation that clouds the issues on both sides.
We read an outrageous claim and then spend time researching whether in fact it's true , false,  a half truth....or who bloody knows!

I'm not certain which side is actually benefiting from the protests....while it makes a lot of noise and grabs a lot of attention, how is the general American population feeling about it?
Does criticism from the UK, Germany, Australia etc add weight to the protests or does it have the opposite "mind your own business" effect.

A lot will depend on where they sit on the spectrum....
It's that middle ground who voted for neither Trump or Clinton, or who were on the fringe in terms of support, who'll determine the future of the USA....and the length of Trump's role as President.



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Peter Brady on February 01, 2017, 09:26:52 am
I'm looking forward to the Academy Awards so we can get a break from politics ;D
Won't that be a fun night as the celebs outdo themselves to prove which of them is the biggest Trump critic. ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 01, 2017, 09:39:27 am
We're in "phony war" stage of the battle.
Trump is setting up his fortifications before he starts building his castle..... while under constant attacks from his opponents.
Whether that castle ends up being Camelot or Mt Doom remains to be seen.
Now is the best time for the opposition to attack, throw a whole lot of negatives out there that can be used to undermine him down the track, before he's too entrenched...especially when he's making decisions that re-inforce some of the worst fears of his incumbency.

The problem is it's creating uncertainty and hysteria.
Sure there is a lot of outright lying that can be seen, but there is also exaggeration and misinformation that clouds the issues on both sides.
We read an outrageous claim and then spend time researching whether in fact it's true , false,  a half truth....or who bloody knows!

I'm not certain which side is actually benefiting from the protests....while it makes a lot of noise and grabs a lot of attention, how is the general American population feeling about it?
Does criticism from the UK, Germany, Australia etc add weight to the protests or does it have the opposite "mind your own business" effect.


A lot will depend on where they sit on the spectrum....
It's that middle ground who voted for neither Trump or Clinton, or who were on the fringe in terms of support, who'll determine the future of the USA....and the length of Trump's role as President.

My issue with this is that in my experience, its a classic case of misdirection, usually propaganda based and driven.

What is going on elsewhere that we are not focussing on when we worry about stories in the scheme of things that don't actually make too much of a difference??

The example I will use is last weeks "abortion bill".

No rights of anyone changed, aside from funding to foreign groups who were promoting abortion.  The Netherlands have since stepped up and filled the hole, meaning its business as usual.

What else happened that we were not told about whilst people were campaigning about Men deciding Womens rights, when none were actually removed aside from some funding??

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 01, 2017, 09:48:16 am
We're in "phony war" stage of the battle.
Trump is setting up his fortifications before he starts building his castle..... while under constant attacks from his opponents.
Whether that castle ends up being Camelot or Mt Doom remains to be seen.
Now is the best time for the opposition to attack, throw a whole lot of negatives out there that can be used to undermine him down the track, before he's too entrenched...especially when he's making decisions that re-inforce some of the worst fears of his incumbency.

The problem is it's creating uncertainty and hysteria.
Sure there is a lot of outright lying that can be seen, but there is also exaggeration and misinformation that clouds the issues on both sides.
We read an outrageous claim and then spend time researching whether in fact it's true , false,  a half truth....or who bloody knows!

I'm not certain which side is actually benefiting from the protests....while it makes a lot of noise and grabs a lot of attention, how is the general American population feeling about it?
Does criticism from the UK, Germany, Australia etc add weight to the protests or does it have the opposite "mind your own business" effect.

A lot will depend on where they sit on the spectrum....
It's that middle ground who voted for neither Trump or Clinton, or who were on the fringe in terms of support, who'll determine the future of the USA....and the length of Trump's role as President.

An interesting point of view is the one that states that the the real solution to the refugee crises is to stop perpetrating the devastating wars that create the refugees in the first place, and the US is behind a lot of these (aided and abetted by Saudi Arabia and Bahrain to name but two), Syria being one example. It is interesting to note that the protesters are nowhere to be seen as far as these slaughters are concerned?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 01, 2017, 10:01:05 am
My issue with this is that in my experience, its a classic case of misdirection, usually propaganda based and driven.

What is going on elsewhere that we are not focussing on when we worry about stories in the scheme of things that don't actually make too much of a difference??

The example I will use is last weeks "abortion bill".

No rights of anyone changed, aside from funding to foreign groups who were promoting abortion.  The Netherlands have since stepped up and filled the hole, meaning its business as usual.

What else happened that we were not told about whilst people were campaigning about Men deciding Womens rights, when none were actually removed aside from some funding??

Not exactly correct Thry.

The Netherlands hasn't filled the gap but has proposed that nations with more enlightened views contribute funds to make up the shortfall created by the Trump executive order.  The US allocated $620M for family planning and reproductive health in 2017.  Of course, not all of that is allocated to organisations subject to the Trump ban, but there will be a significant shortfall to be made up by other nations.  If Australia is to chip in, there will have to be an equivalent cut in another aid program.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on February 01, 2017, 10:27:43 am
The media and the lunatic left have lost the plot, they were embarrassingly wrong about the election and won't accept it.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 01, 2017, 10:35:37 am
An interesting point of view is the one that states that the the real solution to the refugee crises is to stop perpetrating the devastating wars that create the refugees in the first place, and the US is behind a lot of these (aided and abetted by Saudi Arabia and Bahrain to name but two), Syria being one example. It is interesting to note that the protesters are nowhere to be seen as far as these slaughters are concerned?

I think that is a little unfair, most of those disputes have a social genesis older the the USA!

Western societies being relatively new think of family as a house full of people, in Iran or Iraq "A Family or Clan" can in effect be tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of individuals. More than a Sicilian family, I suppose when you have a history of polygamy / polygyny it is a lot easier to have huge lists of relatives even without political alliances!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 01, 2017, 01:25:58 pm
I think that is a little unfair, most of those disputes have a social genesis older the the USA!

Western societies being relatively new think of family as a house full of people, in Iran or Iraq "A Family or Clan" can in effect be tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of individuals. More than a Sicilian family, I suppose when you have a history of polygamy / polygyny it is a lot easier to have huge lists of relatives even without political alliances!

Apart from the ancient disputes between Islamic sects, the European carve up of the Ottoman Empire and the establishment of Israel are root causes of much of the conflict.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 01, 2017, 01:52:59 pm
Not exactly correct Thry.

The Netherlands hasn't filled the gap but has proposed that nations with more enlightened views contribute funds to make up the shortfall created by the Trump executive order.  The US allocated $620M for family planning and reproductive health in 2017.  Of course, not all of that is allocated to organisations subject to the Trump ban, but there will be a significant shortfall to be made up by other nations.  If Australia is to chip in, there will have to be an equivalent cut in another aid program.

See this is an example of the media twisting facts and not reporting the whole truth.  What I had read was that the Netherlands were going to cover the shortfall, and the funding cuts would only effect social groups, actively promoting abortion in foreign nations.

The commentary has absolutely been about a bunch of men deciding what women can do.

Which is a little single minded when we talk about funding models.

The truth is likely to be somewhere in between realistically, and no loss of funding will occur because the way abortion is promoted will change, rather than anything else.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on February 01, 2017, 02:24:08 pm
On Trump, Dems, Hillary etc,

Start at 35.00 odd if you like.....
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-05/national-press-club-address:-kinky-friedman/7905594
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 01, 2017, 03:04:19 pm
Apart from the ancient disputes between Islamic sects, the European carve up of the Ottoman Empire and the establishment of Israel are root causes of much of the conflict.

Wasn't it Turkey that started by invading to the West(Bulgaria and Macedonia), then when that went sour they decided to head East into Persia(Iran and Iraq)?

Even so, this is well before the USA existed and they are still fighting!

Does the war persist because of US or any other 3rd parties involvement, it seems unlikely!

It's fair to claim countries like the USA and Russia are only involved due to self-interest, but I think it's unfair to claim the war persists because of them.

As for Israel, didn't God tell them "No Soup for You!" :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 01, 2017, 03:55:26 pm
I think that is a little unfair, most of those disputes have a social genesis older the the USA!

Western societies being relatively new think of family as a house full of people, in Iran or Iraq "A Family or Clan" can in effect be tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of individuals. More than a Sicilian family, I suppose when you have a history of polygamy / polygyny it is a lot easier to have huge lists of relatives even without political alliances!

If you have a look at the activities of the Anglo American oil companies , their associations with the Moslem Brotherhood (among others), the involvement of British intelligence and later the CIA, starting after WW1 and going on until the present day  you will be surprised, maybe even shocked. I won't go into it on here as it's a long and totuous tale, but it's fascinating and worth a bit of your time.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 01, 2017, 04:03:07 pm
If you have a look at the activities of the Anglo American oil companies , their associations with the Moslem Brotherhood (among others), the involvement of British intelligence and later the CIA, starting after WW1 and going on until the present day  you will be surprised, maybe even shocked. I won't go into it on here as it's a long and totuous tale, but it's fascinating and worth a bit of your time.

As I said above it's fair to claim countries like the USA and Russia are only involved due to self-interest, but I think it's unfair to claim the war only persists because of them. It's an even longer bow to draw if you are claiming all would now be good if they had departed or not started, history says otherwise!

btw., Who does Trump actually back, in rhetoric and action?

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 01, 2017, 04:11:05 pm
As I said above it's fair to claim countries like the USA and Russia are only involved due to self-interest, but I think it's unfair to claim the war only persists because of them. It's an even longer bow to draw if you are claiming all would now be good if they had departed or not started, history says otherwise!

btw., Who does Trump actually back, in rhetoric and action?

Well I guess you're entitled to your own opinion. I've said all I wanted to say on this now.

PS. I think it's more fruitful to look into who's backing Trump. That will tell us who he's backing.   ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Bear on February 01, 2017, 06:21:23 pm
On Trump, Dems, Hillary etc,

Start at 35.00 odd if you like.....
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-05/national-press-club-address:-kinky-friedman/7905594

Kinky Friedman is still alive? Awesome!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 01, 2017, 07:08:59 pm
Well I guess you're entitled to your own opinion. I've said all I wanted to say on this now.

PS. I think it's more fruitful to look into who's backing Trump. That will tell us who he's backing.   ;)

Good point Cookie....this bloke isnt backing him and he knows a thing or two about making money....

 Warren Buffett attacked Donald Trump's business acumen, saying a monkey could have done far better running a public company...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 01, 2017, 07:27:48 pm
Good point Cookie....this bloke isnt backing him and he knows a thing or two about making money....

 Warren Buffett attacked Donald Trump's business acumen, saying a monkey could have done far better running a public company...

Why are people so unkind?

 >:D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 01, 2017, 09:57:29 pm
Good point Cookie....this bloke isnt backing him and he knows a thing or two about making money....

 Warren Buffett attacked Donald Trump's business acumen, saying a monkey could have done far better running a public company...

As I've mentioned before, there are quite a few members of the "Billionaires Club" that think Trump's claims of being a billionaire are bullcrap!

There are certain things Billionaires get involved in, philanthropies if you like, that they do at their own expense. Trump set some up, and then tried to make profit from them like he needed the money! When they made a loss he allegedly closed them down, billionaires just don't behave like that, they don't give up and don't care about the money lost on their philanthropies.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on February 02, 2017, 11:35:33 am
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/andrew-bolt/andrew-bolt-lefts-response-to-trump-is-to-trash-democracy/news-story/e2cbbdb3d0ed2c5c6cc6d2e8566630d2

Quote
  THE protests against Donald Trump are so extreme that it’s clear what’s got many on the Left so mad. It’s democracy. They hate it.

This is the most frightening thing about the campaign to stop the new US President from doing just what voters elected him to do.

We already know the modern Left hates free speech. Now we see it’s not keen on a free vote, either — if the “wrong” person gets elected.

The Left is becoming not just more violent but more totalitarian, and Trump has exposed that. Even before he formally took over as President, there were protests against Trump’s election in many American cities, including some in which police were bashed. These were, in fact, protests against the result of a free and fair election.

Now, after just his first week as president, Left-wing publications are already discussing ways to remove this duly elected leader from office.

The Washington-based Foreign Policy magazine published a guide: “3 Ways to Get Rid of President Trump Before 2020”.

The Sydney Morning Herald contributed “Four Ways they can get rid of Donald Trump sooner rather than later”, which included this astonishing line: “The fourth possibility is one that until recently I would have said was unthinkable in the United States of America: a military coup …”

RootsAction.org has 500,000 signatures on a petition to impeach Trump. Change.org has 200,000.

Meanwhile, Democrats in the US Senate vowed to reject any judge Trump nominated to sit on the Supreme Court, and are now considering a mass boycott of Trump’s address to a joint session of Congress on February 28 in an attempt to delegitimise him.

Not in living memory has a president faced such a concerted attempt to stop him — even sack him — even before his first week is out.

Yes, it’s perfectly fine for people to protest against what Trump is doing, and many Trump haters are doing no more than that.

But there is undeniably more going on.

That is clear from the hysterical reaction against Trump’s decision to temporarily ban visitors from seven jihadist-plagued countries.

What Trump has done is what he promised to do before the election. It is almost certainly lawful and makes sense, even if it was implemented chaotically.

All that Trump has said is that travellers from those countries — Syria, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Sudan, Libya and Somalia — are banned for 90 days until his administration works out better ways to vet them.

Most of those countries are on a list drawn up by the Obama administration of failed states battling jihadism or are led, in the case of Iran, by jihadists. The US struggles with each one to get the information it needs to check the background of people coming to the US.

It is not surprising then that a Rasmussen poll last week found that Trump’s plan had overwhelming support from Americans — 56 per cent in favour to 32 per cent against.

Yet see how the Left — and its media allies — reacted to a policy that was reasonable, popular, an election promise and almost certainly legal. Thousands of protesters choked the airports and demanded authorities free any travellers detained.

The acting attorney-general, an appointment of former president Barack Obama, defied her new boss and ordered staff not to defend Trump’s law in the courts.

More than 200 US diplomats, meant to represent their government, signed a protest against Trump’s order.

These were government officials refusing to carry out government policy, as required by their elected president.

Aren’t the voters meant to be sovereign in a democracy?

It got worse. Hillary Clinton, the Democrat defeated in the election, sent a tweet saying “I stand with the people” demonstrating against Trump. Obama issued a statement, just a week after leaving the presidency, saying he “fundamentally disagrees” with Trump’s ban.

Here are a former president and presidential candidate offering, in effect, a rival leadership to that of the president. This is getting ugly.

The big picture is that the Left simply refuses to accept that Trump won the election and has a right — even duty — to put in place the policies he promised. There is a dangerous intolerance at work, as well as a sneering contempt for the kind of people who voted for Trump.

The result is that democracy is being trashed.

The Left is revealing itself as not just bad losers but bullies with a dangerous totalitarian itch — exactly what had so many voters support Trump in the first place.

Given that, bet on this: Trump will win out in the end.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 02, 2017, 11:37:57 am
Quoting Andrew Bolt ? Wow, there's a source you can rely on.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on February 02, 2017, 11:38:54 am
Quoting Andrew Bolt ? Wow, there's a source you can rely on.

In this instance he's spot on.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 02, 2017, 11:42:33 am
Quoting Andrew Bolt ? Wow, there's a source you can rely on.

Beat me to it PP  :)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 02, 2017, 11:49:35 am
In this instance he's spot on.

It's quite amazing what passes as "the left" these days - the Sydney Morning Herald ? Bahahaha.

Basically anyone that is not :
Liberal
Republican, or
disagrees with Bolt
and doesn't work for a Murdoch media outlet

is a Pinko.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 02, 2017, 01:09:38 pm
Bolt's rhetoric fits this thread title perfectly!

The big error being made by media commentary and many followers of the various debates is in allowing "Alternative Explanations" to facts like every opinion has to have an equal and opposite alternative. But that is basically a wrong assumption because, Alternative opinions or facts are only valid and viable if they are actually real and not imaginary!

Lies are not the natural alternative to facts!

The media should be required to support all published opinions with supporting evidence, they are supposed to be professional at the dissemination and reporting for information! Bolt is a prime example of this not happening. But he is not on his own, there are just as many offenders on the other side of politics. They should all join each other as the first against the wall!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 02, 2017, 02:35:16 pm
Im no trump supporter (in fact the presidency in America seems to be doing exactly what Ive always thought its there for and thats to draw attention away from people who really wield power in the USA) but its very difficult to argue against the fact that the backlash against Trump is a massive over reaction by people who refuse to acknowledge that he won this election.


They need to really stop throwing the toys out of the cot at the fact that he is doing exactly what he was elected to do, and in a manner that every president that has come before him has done rather than pine for the old president, or any other president but this one.

Its so immature.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 02, 2017, 04:25:48 pm
Which is tantamount to saying that Democrats should leave it to the GOP to act as if a President from the other side is illegitimate.  The GOP spent 8 years treating Obama as if he wasn't actually the President.  They tried to block him at every turn, even refusing to put his nominee for the Supreme Court or indeed other Federal courts to a vote. 

It's about time the Dems returned serve.  In 2 years time, the boot should be on the other foot as the GOP is swept out of Congress and they can really set about treating Trump as the imbecile that he is.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 02, 2017, 04:52:39 pm
You know, the fact that Trump is an imbecile doesn't worry me so much. Reagan was also an imbecile. The difference is that at least with RR, he could be relied upon to read his lines, stick to the script, not ask stupid questions and not do anything stupid. Trump, unfortunately is a dangerous imbecile, a loose cannon with zero care and zero accountability, and when bad things start to happen, as they surely will, he will never accept any blame, and won't do anything to sort it out. It will, without a doubt, be someone else's fault, and be someone else's job to fix.

Nice work if you can get it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Professer E on February 02, 2017, 05:13:25 pm
Maybe we can tell the yanks to piss off from Pine Gap and Nurrungar.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 02, 2017, 05:18:48 pm
Maybe we can tell the yanks to piss off from Pine Gap and Nurrungar.

My thoughts exactly. He wouldn't want to jeopardize those (and other) strategic military bases in Oz by pissing us off.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 02, 2017, 05:39:47 pm
Turnbull probably wants to avoid dying from natural causes unexpectedly this year.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 02, 2017, 05:41:16 pm
My thoughts exactly. He wouldn't want to jeopardize those (and other) strategic military bases in Oz by pissing us off.

I suspect that making the link between military bases and the consequences of his actions might be a struggle for the Trumpster.

Apparently he hung up on our Malcolm and that's not something we should take lying down.  Come to think of it, I hung up on Malcolm during the election campaign  :)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 02, 2017, 05:52:20 pm
Turnbull probably wants to avoid dying from natural causes unexpectedly this year.

 :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Peter Brady on February 02, 2017, 05:58:47 pm
Easily fixed ;D

(https://philipstanfielddotcom.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/australia-the-51st-state.jpg)

Then Malcolm can be President. ;)

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 02, 2017, 06:25:08 pm
Warren Buffet has just bought 12 billion dollars worth of new stocks on the basis that Trump will lift the US economy by 2% even though he thinks Trump is a monkey who couldnt count how many bananas he had in his shopping trolley...its all perception with Trump, he doesnt have to do anything he just has to say he is doing it and the nation reacts and some like Buffet will come out winners.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 02, 2017, 06:44:27 pm
Warren Buffet has just bought 12 billion dollars worth of new stocks on the basis that Trump will lift the US economy by 2% even though he thinks Trump is a monkey who couldnt count how many bananas he had in his shopping trolley...its all perception with Trump, he doesnt have to do anything he just has to say he is doing it and the nation reacts and some like Buffet will come out winners.

International investors are also piling in for short term gains, this has nothing to do with long term all they need is a rise, any rise will do!

But if that rise comes off the back of the US printing more cash, any profits will be consumed by inflation.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 02, 2017, 07:56:51 pm
International investors are also piling in for short term gains, this has nothing to do with long term all they need is a rise, any rise will do!

But if that rise comes off the back of the US printing more cash, any profits will be consumed by inflation.

Alan Koehler said tonight that US shares are ideally set up for a dramatic fall  :(
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 02, 2017, 08:14:58 pm
Alan Koehler said tonight that US shares are ideally set up for a dramatic fall  :(

It's somewhat true, but there will be a peak before the fall so timing is everything. These guys can afford the loss associated with those risks.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 02, 2017, 08:17:49 pm
It's somewhat true, but there will be a peak before the fall so timing is everything. These guys can afford the loss associated with those risks.

Yes, it's all in the timing and the ability to look your best after a haircut.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 02, 2017, 08:20:49 pm
Yes, it's all in the timing and the ability to look your best after a haircut.

You always hear about there wins but rarely hear about a loss. ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 02, 2017, 08:48:19 pm
There's a suggestion that Malcolm should get Paul Keating to make the next phone call to the pathological narcissist but I doubt whether the Trumpster could keep up with the flow of Keating's insults :)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 03, 2017, 01:05:18 am
Trump tweeted; "Do you believe it? The Obama Administration agreed to take thousands of illegal immigrants from Australia. Why? I will study this dumb deal!"

The actual number is around 1,250 and they have been found to be genuine refugees, not illegal immigrants.  Australia will accept South American refugees in return; the folk Trump's wall is supposed to keep out.

I'm not convinced that is a good deal from an Australian perspective.  I'm less convinced that Trump studying the deal will help him to understand what is involved.  He simply lacks the capacity to understand anything that falls outside his incredibly narrow view of the world  :( 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)1 m
Post by: Bear on February 03, 2017, 06:47:06 am
This is probabaly the best thing that has happened to Turnbull for some time.

 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: shawny on February 03, 2017, 08:12:29 am
Warren Buffet has just bought 12 billion dollars worth of new stocks on the basis that Trump will lift the US economy by 2% even though he thinks Trump is a monkey who couldnt count how many bananas he had in his shopping trolley...its all perception with Trump, he doesnt have to do anything he just has to say he is doing it and the nation reacts and some like Buffet will come out winners.


Elwood cant agree on this one......like him or hate him but takes more then perception to get where he is.

Too many try to find an angle to insult him based on his manner, attitude or more often simply cause they don't like his brutal way of doing things. Hate him as much as you want, the man is definitely not a monkey.  Don't know too many monkeys who are billionaires, hardly paid a dollar in tax and now run the most powerful nation on earth.

He plays with the average man and users his smarts to get where he is today. Might not agree or like his stance, manner or way he go about it but the man is no dope.

Wish I was as dumb as him.   ;D


   
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on February 03, 2017, 08:37:24 am
well said shawny.

no dope. Where was the outrage over the US led killings of countless Muslims in multiple countries during the reigns of Obama and Bush before him over the last 2 decades?

The anti Trump MSM driven hysteria is laughable.....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 03, 2017, 09:13:47 am
Dope or not, he is an extremely dangerous egomaniac who has decided that he will strong arm any nation that he sees fit, has already pissed off a few world leaders, has already made comments that the US should've forcibly taken Middle East oil to protect us from ISIS, has decided to spend billions on building a wall for a problem that is already in decline, exaggerates, lies and distorts as and when he sees fit etc. I could go on, but seriously, why bother ?

Most of his wealth comes from his old man. He's had plenty of failed business dealings.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 03, 2017, 10:13:09 am
Arnie has suggested that Americans would sleep better if he and Trump swapped jobs  :)

Meanwhile, the South Park creators have revealed how they decided to avoid incorporating current political events in their show because the real thing is funnier than anything they could satirise  ::)

I guess we'll learn how good/bad Trump the business man is when he releases his tax returns ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 03, 2017, 11:54:43 am

Elwood cant agree on this one......like him or hate him but takes more then perception to get where he is.

Too many try to find an angle to insult him based on his manner, attitude or more often simply cause they don't like his brutal way of doing things. Hate him as much as you want, the man is definitely not a monkey.  Don't know too many monkeys who are billionaires, hardly paid a dollar in tax and now run the most powerful nation on earth.

He plays with the average man and users his smarts to get where he is today. Might not agree or like his stance, manner or way he go about it but the man is no dope.

Wish I was as dumb as him.  


 

Shawny....His father made all the money, Trump jr's only success was his TV show, all his other ventures have failed, thats why real self made moguls like Buffett have no time for him.
Buffett figures Trumps short term popularity and hype will raise certain stocks and thats why he has invested 12 billion dollars worth of money ...Buffett made all his money after turning 50 and has only had one bad year in the stock game, he founded the group Berkshire Hathaway...if you want to do yourself a favour then buy some Berkshire Hathaway shares.....back in 1980 they were $300 a share.......you will only need about $244,000 to buy one share now... ;D If Warren Buffet says Trump is a monkey when it comes to finance then I believe him....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 03, 2017, 12:07:20 pm
I heard a comment this morning by Cadel Evans on Trump which I thought was a beauty. Evans said something like:
He is dumb enough to get us into a whole lot of trouble, but he isnt smart enough to get us out of it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: shawny on February 03, 2017, 01:35:56 pm
Shawny....His father made all the money, Trump jr's only success was his TV show, all his other ventures have failed, thats why real self made moguls like Buffett have no time for him.
Buffett figures Trumps short term popularity and hype will raise certain stocks and thats why he has invested 12 billion dollars worth of money ...Buffett made all his money after turning 50 and has only had one bad year in the stock game, he founded the group Berkshire Hathaway...if you want to do yourself a favour then buy some Berkshire Hathaway shares.....back in 1980 they were $300 a share.......you will only need about $244,000 to buy one share now... ;D If Warren Buffet says Trump is a monkey when it comes to finance then I believe him....

Elwood I'm not arguing Buffets credibility but his opinion of a fellow
Billionaire is possible biased or possibly correct......if he is comparing Trump to Buffetts himself.

All I'm saying is trump is no fool mate and those who seem to form the opinion he is generally do so based on his personality traits and in your face attitude which many in today's society can't accept.

So they deal with it by saying he's a dope or an idiot.

I will repeat it. He is no fool.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 03, 2017, 01:48:52 pm
I was listening to the South Park boys on 774 this morning and I was surprised to hear that they had followed the Essendon drug scandal. They said that the US election was like having choose between a douche bag and a Hird sandwich ... at least that's what I think they said  ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 03, 2017, 02:09:21 pm
Anderson Cooper was discussing the hostile call between Trump and Turnbull on his CNN show and he was perplexed by why Trump would go after Australia.  A Trump supporter and apologist, Geoffrey Lord, tried to compare it to Reagan's first speech in which he went after the Soviet Union, saying that the speech helped to bring an end to the Cold War.  Anderson Cooper smiled and said he hopes we'll see an end to the Cold War with Australia at some stage!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Amers on February 03, 2017, 02:18:39 pm
Quoting Andrew Bolt ? Wow, there's a source you can rely on.

And what make your sources more reliable, because you agree with them?

Is any media source reliable in these days? Or do we all, not just PP like to read and listen to the ones we agree with and then often/sometimes try to discredit the ones we don't?

Smoke and mirrors, alternate truth is BS, but trying to find the real truth amongst all the BS is worse than trying to find a needle in a haystack!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 03, 2017, 02:27:24 pm
And what make your sources more reliable, because you agree with them?

Is any media source reliable in these days? Or do we all, not just PP like to read and listen to the ones we agree with and then often/sometimes try to discredit the ones we don't?

Smoke and mirrors, alternate truth is BS, but trying to find the real truth amongst all the BS is worse than trying to find a needle in a haystack!

Ooh, I dunno, fluffy pointless things like facts, evidence, concession, variation, lack of name calling....................
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 04, 2017, 06:46:16 pm
http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-federal-judge-slaps-restraining-order-on-donald-trumps-travel-ban-20170204-gu5gsv.html#comments

Pinko judges. Pfft. What would they know ?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 08, 2017, 11:12:11 pm
Apart from Trump's disgraceful attempt to gain a political advantage from the murders of Mia Ayliffe-Chung and Tom Jackson (and many other faked account of under reporting), his claim that common sense should override the law was today's jaw dropping highlight  :o

I'm not sure that Trump's version of common sense is common or involves much sense but what really scares me is that he thinks his view of the world should take precedence over statute. Hopefully, the US obsession with constitutional compliance will prevail over Trump's uncommon sense.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 08, 2017, 11:36:29 pm
There is lots of fake twitter being perpetuated about trump at the moment.

I'm not sure if it's cut copy paste to keep the clicks and comments going but I'm finding it in rather poor taste.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Dominator_7 on February 08, 2017, 11:43:43 pm
America is in a mess. 'Alternative truths' are their new reality, with  creeps like Bannon, Spicer, Conway and Dump himself just talking fabricated crud at every opportunity.
They're in a very weird and dangerous place right now
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 09, 2017, 08:45:48 am
America is in a mess. 'Alternative truths' are their new reality, with  creeps like Bannon, Spicer, Conway and Dump himself just talking fabricated crud at every opportunity.
They're in a very weird and dangerous place right now

That's a given.

A concern though is that it's not all flowing from one side, and some of the hysteria, exaggeration and fear-mongering from the Trump opponents means that things won't settle quickly.

The danger then becomes the reactions on either side and how the general American public will be influenced by it.

While you can't expect people to just accept actions they perceive as morally wrong, extreme acts or actions perceived as blocking for the sake of delaying policy only play into the hands of those in control.
They don't convince folk to change their opinion (they're preaching to the converted) but rather tend to reinforce the position of those they're opposing.

A foul mouthed hysterical "professor" shouting abuse at NYPD officers doing their job wont win you sympathy for your cause no matter how deeply and passionately it's felt, it will have the opposite effect.

Blocking people from speaking at a University won't help your cause...it will turn those who believe in free speech.

One of the big hypocrisies of the moment is that people attack Trump for his attitudes but have no problem mocking and vilifying the man on a personal level.

But how do you approach it?....measured and sensible debate, use the courts (they're there as a "check and balance"), non violent protests....lose the signs and slogans, carry a candle or a flower instead....and most importantly focus on the policy and not the man.
The opposite of hate is peace and love

Haters are haters...and they're nasty horrible people
They appear on both sides of the political spectrum.
But here's the big problem with being a hater.
When you're a "hater" off goes your head and on goes a pumpkin.
Rational thought goes out the window.

Yep it's a mess
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 09, 2017, 10:13:48 am
^^

Historically speaking, I have only witnessed such dramatic media and propaganda campaigns around revolution.

The thing with revolution though is it normally occurs on the back of the people "fighting back" against a ruling class that they see as not looking after public interesting.

This time its about the person and not what they are doing or how they are doing it.

I am no Trump apologist, but if this is the way people are acting 3 weeks into a new presidency just because their proposed candidate didnt win, then Id say they are about to have a real revolutionary change that most people will suffer from.



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 09, 2017, 12:11:16 pm
Don't just look at Trump or at the demonstrators on the street. Look at who's behind them and the history of those people and organisations. I don't believe we are witnessing revolution at all, but more an internecine struggle between different warring sections of the elites, with mainly their foot soldiers on the streets, save for a few genuine ones.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 09, 2017, 12:48:46 pm
Don't just look at Trump or at the demonstrators on the street. Look at who's behind them and the history of those people and organisations. I don't believe we are witnessing revolution at all, but more an internecine struggle between different warring sections of the elites, with mainly their foot soldiers on the streets, save for a few genuine ones.

Historically speaking that's exactly how revolutions begin and how Governments have been overthrown.  What it usually results in is war.  Sometimes Civil, but over the last 100 years its mainly been more geopolitically focussed.


From what I can see, we are living in a crony capitalist and crony democratic world, where people are sold the illusion of choice and freedom to comply with the ruling class.

Its possible that Trump winning the election has made reality hit home, and Id wager that people are fed up with politics.  The thing is, this isnt isolated to the USA, from what I can see people have been turning away from elections globally and are generally turning to non traditional political options in liew of voting for the status quo because they are genuinely tired of the crap they are served up.



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 09, 2017, 01:10:08 pm
Historically speaking that's exactly how revolutions begin and how Governments have been overthrown.  What it usually results in is war.  Sometimes Civil, but over the last 100 years its mainly been more geopolitically focussed.


From what I can see, we are living in a crony capitalist and crony democratic world, where people are sold the illusion of choice and freedom to comply with the ruling class.

Its possible that Trump winning the election has made reality hit home, and Id wager that people are fed up with politics.  The thing is, this isnt isolated to the USA, from what I can see people have been turning away from elections globally and are generally turning to non traditional political options in liew of voting for the status quo because they are genuinely tired of the crap they are served up.

You make a good point Thry...this is the era of the alternates, the anything different must be better than what we have viewpoint... a lot of people are doing it tough and Trump is seen as a messiah no one cares how he does it, they just want the problems in the USA fixed,watched a doco on Russian neo nazi type groups and there is real hatred of foreigners in Russia...Putin fuels it and he is now a loved figure by disenfranchised Russian youth.
Find someone to blame for your countries problems and you are a fair chance to get elected...I'm not an expert on Greek Politics but the far right group "Golden Dawn" seemed to have emerged in a similar fashion...
The whole  thing reminds me of a little german corporal who sold the same message of blame for his countries problems and got himself into power...
Lucky we live in Australia...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 09, 2017, 01:10:31 pm
Historically speaking that's exactly how revolutions begin and how Governments have been overthrown.  What it usually results in is war.  Sometimes Civil, but over the last 100 years its mainly been more geopolitically focussed.


From what I can see, we are living in a crony capitalist and crony democratic world, where people are sold the illusion of choice and freedom to comply with the ruling class.

Its possible that Trump winning the election has made reality hit home, and Id wager that people are fed up with politics.  The thing is, this isnt isolated to the USA, from what I can see people have been turning away from elections globally and are generally turning to non traditional political options in liew of voting for the status quo because they are genuinely tired of the crap they are served up.

I'd pretty much agree with that Thry, people are becoming more aware and more tired of the situation, but I don't think it will necessarily result in a grass roots inspired revolution, more a takeover and new direction by another grouping of the ruling oligarchy. I just hope it will be to all of our benefit - time will tell.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 09, 2017, 02:21:14 pm
I'd pretty much agree with that Thry, people are becoming more aware and more tired of the situation, but I don't think it will necessarily result in a grass roots inspired revolution, more a takeover and new direction by another grouping of the ruling oligarchy. I just hope it will be to all of our benefit - time will tell.

We will definately only find out in due course.

What worries me is not what is happening, or what we are hearing about, its what we don't hear about.  The crisis in Yemen is one that has everyone blindsided probably because its the people in the area fighting against a western backed regime.  Very interesting stuff.

You make a good point Thry...this is the era of the alternates, the anything different must be better than what we have viewpoint... a lot of people are doing it tough and Trump is seen as a messiah no one cares how he does it, they just want the problems in the USA fixed,watched a doco on Russian neo nazi type groups and there is real hatred of foreigners in Russia...Putin fuels it and he is now a loved figure by disenfranchised Russian youth.
Find someone to blame for your countries problems and you are a fair chance to get elected...I'm not an expert on Greek Politics but the far right group "Golden Dawn" seemed to have emerged in a similar fashion...
The whole  thing reminds me of a little german corporal who sold the same message of blame for his countries problems and got himself into power...
Lucky we live in Australia...

Golden dawn have been building momentum for a long time amonst minorities in Greece.

Their building popularity has been fueled for multiple reasons.

1.  The traditional centre "neutrals" bled the country dry and from what we can tell ran the system based on nepotism.  If you voted in the equivalent of trump, they would install numerous family members to regions of cabinet, spend a lot of money on government projects built by family that were never completed or delivered probably leaving the country where it is today.  One of the notables has fled with all his cash.  Samaras and Papandreou are the culprits reportedly.

2.  The signal that the people had well and truly lost sight of everything was when Syriza (a Communist lefty party, who are considered greater than moderately left, but not extreme) formed government, but could only do so in coalition with other parties.  They did so on the similar promise to deliver change and haven't really delivered any real difference to the status quo and due to talking a big game and not delivering have been regarded as weak.  (I personally think they have navigated a fairly torrid time as best as they could given the complexity of the area which is ironic considering how little pressure exists on a nation like the USA yet have arrived to a similar conclusion).

3.  The migrant crisis and subsequent shunning of welfare spending (mandated by EU) has made the public opinion become one where the country's future is so bleak that we are seeing migration on a large scale from Greece to other nations from the demographic the country can least afford to lose.  Adults between 20-40 who are of working age trying to forge a future for their families because economic recovery is a long way away.  People are tired.  The battle is a long haul one, and no one seems to be serving Greece's best interests (Geopolitically they are however as its not as simple as cutting and running).  The nation is weak.  Turkey are not that strong but could quite easily invade if they liked, and they have been sanctioned invaders once already in Cyprus.  We appear to have learned from the sins of the past, and have not antagonised those around us as any desperate people would, but the people are desperate and desperation can result in very rash decisions being made.

4.  As you say, people are genuinely wanting an alternative, and the proposition of putting Greece "first" is being floated by Golden Dawn.  For all the poor publicism they get regarding being right wing fascist, I see them for what they are.  A nationalist party, trying to fight for their nation, which is traditionally communist in nature.  They may not be as extreme as they are made out to be but in any national party you are likely to foster the sorts of ideals and attract the "Goebels" type.  It suits the current ruling parties agenda to paint them in a bad light, and a lot of public perception about them is that they are to be feared because they will lead to fascist agendas being fostered in Greece.  In reality the country does need to shift more towards the right side of politics than it traditionally has been.  It has been overly reliant on heavy public sector employment and spending, and privatisation on the back of genuine investment is required.  Privatisation is deemed to be evil in Greece.  We are talking about a heavily run public sector nation, who are used to the red tape, and easy life of working for the government who are too busy lining their own pockets to care about who is earning money for nothing in the lower levels.  I think Greece needs to shift towards right wing policy from the position they are in, and what they need is a genuine alternative.  A party that sits in terms of policy between where Golden Dawn reportedly sit on the "left/right spectrum" and closer to the leftists that are currently in power.



Global Politics is interesting.

People apply their blanket understanding of how politics work yet fail to understand that not all nations are "in the same boat" and not all right wing governments are fascist, and not all of them will result in a "holocaust".

I consider myself pragmatic.  A particular government is not good or bad, depending on the circumstances they are all required to a certain level to "keep the bastards honest".  Where it gets tricky is that power tends to corrupt.  I see Golden Dawn as heading down the road to extremes, and perhaps annoying everyone off who we actually rely on to stay a sovereign nation, and who's backing we require to protect certain geopolitical interests but they are no where near fascist and any perceived likeness to Nazi Germany is more perception and propaganda than not.  They would not be good for Greece in the long term, but in the short term would likely improve things for the people living in Greece by making deals that will see economic recovery.


When you look at the volatility that exists in europe currently, I struggle to figure out why Americans of all people "have had enough".

Obviously, I don't know much about their nation, but what is the struggle?  Is it class division?  Economic down turn?  Infringement of rights is plainly a falsehood.  They have more rights than most people around the world.  what kills me, is when their rich and famous pretend to care for their fellow man, when they return to their billion dollar houses in the upmarket parts of hollywood, and live a lavish lifestyle that many of their fellow countrymen and women don't enjoy.

make America great again. Great slogan, it seems to have won in the court of public opinion, but I dont see any reason to suggest that Trump will make America great again.  He can build the great wall of mexico, visible from the moon, and from what I have read, it will save a lot of money, and time for the border patrollers if he reinforces the wall (note it already exists on the border of California and mexico) but I dont see how this achieves anything for their nation.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 09, 2017, 02:40:28 pm
@ Thry

If you want what I think is a good summary of the problems in the US and the lead up to Trump I recommend watching a film called "Requiem for the American Dream" featuring Noam Chomsky. He is pretty dry but his insights are fascinating. Prepare to be depressed though.

PS. Just read the thoughts of Bill Murray on the situation. "A few years ago we had Steve Jobs, Johnny Cash and Bob Hope. Now we have no jobs, no cash and no hope."
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Dominator_7 on February 10, 2017, 12:48:19 pm
I  don't think a lot of the backlash is purely just because Clinton didn't win.
With every stupid/arrogant/disrespectful new action of Dump's (and he seems to be doing, saying or tweeting something dumb daily), and every new flagrant lie of Spicer's and Conway's to the media,  they just keep adding fuel to the fire.
I mean you couldn't be making the stuff up the things they re doing and saying over there right now...  The country is in chaos.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 10, 2017, 02:31:40 pm
Yep.  I can't believe how much Trump and Kim Jong-Un have in common.  They both have a buffoonish air which makes them seem innocuous but both are true totalitarians (Putin would qualify as the latter but not the former - Putin is scary not clownish).

Both have the desire to impose alternative reality as fact.  That Kim Jong-Un is more extreme is no doubt due only to the fact he has a big head start on Trump.  But if Trump can tame the press and ride roughshod over constitutional and legal constraints, I fear he'd make full use of his power.

The most startling example is how he personally tweeted the murder rate is bigger than it's been in 45 years and the laws have to change.  He went for a two-for-one deal by attacking the press for not reporting this murder mayhem.  As the press quickly pointed out, the rate is well down on the 80s and 90s even if there had been a small spike recently.  Sean Spicer and Kelly-Anne Conway then argued that this is what he meant and so Trump wasn't lying.  But today he comes out saying he's reacting to the crime emergency and will be giving the police more powers and shielding the police from being held accountable for abuses of power.

Wow!  Straight out of Orwell's 1984!  Don't worry about facts.  Just create a threat which needs to be addressed.  Scare the citizens and come to their rescue ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 10, 2017, 03:47:30 pm
Then again, the police really do need to be shielded from outrageous allegations.  For instance, hard-working police in France were actually accused of sodomising a black man.  The man, a 22 year old youth worker, says he spoke up when he saw an officer slapping a youth during an ID check and 4 officers took him into an alley.  He says he was sodomised with a police baton as well as beaten around the genitals, and spat upon.  But an impressively thorough investigation cleared the officers of anal rape.  It concluded that the man's pants slipped down by themselves and the baton slipped into him accidentally.  There was no dispute that it did penetrate and he was rushed to hospital for emergency surgery. 

Pity for the officers that Trump isn't over there protecting them.  The report didn't stop one of them being charged with rape and aggravated assault charges being laid against all 4.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/paris-police-brutality-sodomy_us_589cc442e4b04061313c43fd?mpl7nri7lbhx2mx6r& (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/paris-police-brutality-sodomy_us_589cc442e4b04061313c43fd?mpl7nri7lbhx2mx6r&)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 10, 2017, 03:55:12 pm
Trump may well be guilty of trying to create an alternative reality but who's to say that what was being fed to the masses by previous regimes was "reality"?  ???
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 10, 2017, 04:16:54 pm
Previous administrations wanted their communications to be treated as works of non-fiction.  Trump doesn't care if they are patently works of fiction.  We're entering a brave new world.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 10, 2017, 04:20:27 pm
Previous administrations wanted their communications to be treated as works of non-fiction.  Trump doesn't care if they are patently works of fiction.  We're entering a brave new world.

I accept what you are saying about Trump but the rest of it is pure naivity I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 10, 2017, 04:52:57 pm
i think you missed the implications of my previous post.  I said previous administrations wanted their communications to be treated as works of non-fiction, not that they they always were.

But the very fact that previous administrations wanted to be seen as truthful and accurate was in the public interest.  It allowed journalists to probe and on occasions force the White House into humiliating backdowns.  This administration doesn't care if it is "caught out".  It has taken the Sarah Palin approach of just repeating falsehoods until the penny drops that no amount of negative comment will have any effect.  It kills any hope of rational argument or debate.  Imagine if you are trying to argue with someone as to whether Carlton or Richmond had the better team at the start of the 70s but the other guy claimed that Richmond must have been better as they won premierships and Carlton didn't.  You might argue for a while that we won in 68, 70 and 72 but if the other guy insisted that they didn't you'd have to stop arguing at some point as there's no point.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 10, 2017, 05:23:53 pm
@ Mav
Ok, take your point, but can we therefore suppose that  previous regimes were just as untrustworthy, if not more so, than this one? Both (all) are trying to mislead deliberately?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 10, 2017, 05:58:48 pm
Trump may well be guilty of trying to create an alternative reality but who's to say that what was being fed to the masses by previous regimes was "reality"?  ???

You're extending retrospectively the madness of the Trump era! :o

Trump is a feckwit of feckwitology proportions, he should be the Dean of Agnotology at the US Media U!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 10, 2017, 06:07:25 pm
You could go mad trying to understand Trump and people of his ilk. You're looking a nasty clinical mental illness right in the face here. This is what narcissism (seems Trump's diagnosis is 'malignant narcissist') looks and sounds like.

Bottom line is that they are unable to take responsibility for any error or mistake, it's always someone else's fault, accountability for the narcissist is like drinking battery acid, they just won't take responsibility. Grandiose simplistic statements are also a hallmark as they need adoration and unconditional agreement. You're either for them or against them. And if you're against them then you can do no right, if they like you... you can do no wrong. They're very convincing liars as they can really believe their lies.

You've a better chance of flying to the moon on a ham sandwich than expecting rational, reasoned, accountable behaviour from a narcissist. I think a lot of folks are beginning to realise this now. So get your seat, open your pop-corn and marvel at the Trump freak show.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 10, 2017, 06:09:31 pm
You're extending retrospectively the madness of the Trump era! :o

The madness (deception) has always been there. With Trump  it just manifests itself in different ways via different techniques for deceit. Look at Trump's administration. The same old vested interests trying a different plan/approach. Don't be fooled, they are still looking after their own interests as they've always done.

There are plenty of "feck wits" to  be very concerned about as well as Trump. He's the tip of the iceberg.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 10, 2017, 06:57:58 pm
You're extending retrospectively the madness of the Trump era! :o

Trump is a feckwit of feckwitology proportions, he should be the Dean of Agnotology at the US Media U!
America? I give you your 45th President.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMKFIHRpe7I

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 10, 2017, 07:24:07 pm
Here's a trivial pursuit question ...

How many people have become President of the United States?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 10, 2017, 07:58:55 pm
Here's a trivial pursuit question ...

How many people have become President of the United States?

96??
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 10, 2017, 08:03:55 pm
My new favourite politician is Pennsylvania state senator Daylin Leach who responded to bullying by Trump with the following:

“Hey! I oppose civil asset forfeiture too. Why don’t you come after me you racist, loofa-faced s--t-gibbon!!”

The term 'loofa-faced' is a cracker but 's--t-gibbon' takes the cake  :))
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 10, 2017, 09:19:13 pm
My new favourite politician is Pennsylvania state senator Daylin Leach who responded to bullying by Trump with the following:

“Hey! I oppose civil asset forfeiture too. Why don’t you come after me you racist, loofa-faced s--t-gibbon!!”

The term 'loofa-faced' is a cracker but 's--t-gibbon' takes the cake  :))

And here is the news for gibbons...........No gibbons were involved. Well no real ones anyway. (Apologies to Monty Python)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 11, 2017, 12:31:36 am
96??
George Dubya was known as 43 to distinguish him from his daddy, so 96 may be a bit high.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 11, 2017, 07:10:58 am
Here's a trivial pursuit question ...

How many people have become President of the United States?

quarantacinque
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 11, 2017, 07:56:39 am
Here's a trivial pursuit question ...

How many people have become President of the United States?
quarantatre
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 11, 2017, 08:52:31 am
Here's a trivial pursuit question ...

How many people have become President of the United States?

Vierundvierzig

Grover Cleveland served non consecutive terms and is counted as 22 and 24
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 11, 2017, 09:16:31 am
Bingo!  Trump is the 45th POTUS but is the 44th person to hold that office.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 11, 2017, 09:33:44 am
Bingo!  Trump is the 45th POTUS but is the 44th person to hold that office.

However, Trump is only the 39th to have actually been elected as 5 of his predecessors ascended to the office due to death or resignation of an incumbent.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 11, 2017, 09:51:52 am
That reminds me of a sure way to wind up Essendon fans - declare that Carlton's won more GFs than any other team.  Essendon fans usually bite and argue that the drug cheats have won 16 too, but in fact they've won only 14. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on February 11, 2017, 12:57:47 pm
That reminds me of a sure way to wind up Essendon fans - declare that Carlton's won more GFs than any other team.  Essendon fans usually bite and argue that the drug cheats have won 16 too, but in fact they've won only 14.
Ive won a few bob in bets with that one over the years.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 15, 2017, 02:24:01 pm
So funny that conservatives have always been suspicious that left-wing politicians might be Soviet/Russian moles, and yet a nominally Republican White House is a front for the Kremlin  ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 15, 2017, 02:37:36 pm
So funny that conservatives have always been suspicious that left-wing politicians might be Soviet/Russian moles, and yet a nominally Republican White House is a front for the Kremlin  ;D

That may have been the case back in the Soviet days but Putin's conservative nationalism is a good match for Trump's political views.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 15, 2017, 02:48:25 pm
So funny that conservatives have always been suspicious that left-wing politicians might be Soviet/Russian moles, and yet a nominally Republican White House is a front for the Kremlin  ;D

The key word being "nominally"
A lot of Republicans will be less than impressed.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading
Post by: Mav on February 15, 2017, 03:11:58 pm
They might not be impressed, but I doubt any will take Trump to task.  Remember the way they went after Clinton over Benghazi and her email server? They were essentially just alleging carelessness but here we have actual links o Russian intelligence services.  Yet McConnell has referred this issue to the Republican-controlled Intelligence Committee which sits in secret rather than holding public hearings as they did with Clinton.  The FBI might continue to investigate but Jeff Sessions, who was part of the Trump campaign crew, is now the A/G and can decline to take action. 

In other words, the GOP will be in bed with Russia whatever individual politicians might think about that.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 15, 2017, 03:21:21 pm
Given transcripts exist I'm pretty sure we'll see exactly what what was discussed and it will be pretty hard to cover anything up.
After that folks can make an informed opinion on how it impacts on individuals.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on February 15, 2017, 05:00:40 pm
What's your problem with Russians Mav?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 15, 2017, 05:08:00 pm
The neo cons hate Russia and Putin and so are gunning for Trump, or so it would seem. He has his work cut out to survive.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 15, 2017, 05:25:37 pm
I have no problems with North Koreans, Chinese or Russians.  The females in each country can be very attractive.  Not sure about their attitudes to human rights though.  But how is my attitude to those countries relevant to what is good for the US?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 15, 2017, 05:31:46 pm
What's your problem with Russians Mav?

I have a  few problems with Vlad and his crew...Biggest gun running country in the world via their former KGB puppet led satellite states who make/refurbish guns rather than tractors these days...annexed Crimea for none of the reasons they stated ie to protect Russian born citizens , seem to have a problem identifying commercial planes from military ones ....
I'll be interested to see what Trump does with his new buddy Vlad.....the latter will want Trump to pull NATO off his back fence so he can start saving some rubles and fund the  cuts he has to make to his military budget..
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 15, 2017, 05:53:38 pm
"The Grand Chessboard" strategy and the rise of the neo cons provide some illuminating background to all of this.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 15, 2017, 06:02:05 pm
I have a  few problems with Vlad and his crew...Biggest gun running country in the world via their former KGB puppet led satellite states who make/refurbish guns rather than tractors these days...annexed Crimea for none of the reasons they stated ie to protect Russian born citizens , seem to have a problem identifying commercial planes from military ones ....
I'll be interested to see what Trump does with his new buddy Vlad.....the latter will want Trump to pull NATO off his back fence so he can start saving some rubles and fund the  cuts he has to make to his military budget..

Not to mention their treatment of minorities and the recent decision by the Duma to de-criminalise domestic violence  ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Professer E on February 15, 2017, 09:53:27 pm
My missus had a dilemma today, found a photo of Trump when preparing the cat's litter tray.  Didn't know whether to line the poop tray with it or shred it so the cats could really go to town on it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 16, 2017, 10:57:33 am
Here's an indication that a Republican-controlled Congress is hardly likely to go after Trump over the links between his administration and Russia: http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/rand-paul-accidentally-speaks-his-mind-about-investigating-trump (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/rand-paul-accidentally-speaks-his-mind-about-investigating-trump).

Rand Paul made explicit what other Republicans no doubt are keeping hidden.  It will stay in the Intelligence Committee and out of public view rather than allowing a Select Committee to hold public hearings,  Select Committees are for going after the Dems over historical matters which have no current significance.  Benghazi anyone?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 16, 2017, 11:55:05 am
My missus had a dilemma today, found a photo of Trump when preparing the cat's litter tray.  Didn't know whether to line the poop tray with it or shred it so the cats could really go to town on it.

 :)) :)) :))
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 16, 2017, 12:13:33 pm
Here's an indication that a Republican-controlled Congress is hardly likely to go after Trump over the links between his administration and Russia: http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/rand-paul-accidentally-speaks-his-mind-about-investigating-trump (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/rand-paul-accidentally-speaks-his-mind-about-investigating-trump).

Rand Paul made explicit what other Republicans no doubt are keeping hidden.  It will stay in the Intelligence Committee and out of public view rather than allowing a Select Committee to hold public hearings,  Select Committees are for going after the Dems over historical matters which have no current significance.  Benghazi anyone?

Of course parties apply different standards to their opponents....and also prioritise an agenda according to that....The problem here is that there appears to be significant leaking from the White house and the associated bureaucracy that's finding its way into the media.
That in itself is another huge issue..... but it makes it much more difficult for Trump and the Republicans to let it go unchallenged...especially if transcripts start appearing in the press.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 16, 2017, 12:48:59 pm
Of course parties apply different standards to their opponents....and also prioritise an agenda according to that....The problem here is that there appears to be significant leaking from the White house and the associated bureaucracy that's finding its way into the media.
That in itself is another huge issue..... but it makes it much more difficult for Trump and the Republicans to let it go unchallenged...especially if transcripts start appearing in the press.

Many of the leaks are claimed to come from the intelligence/security services.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 16, 2017, 01:30:30 pm
No guarantee that the leaks didn't come from inside the White House.  But if they came from the intelligence services, there's a pretty good chance that the leakers were concerned about Flynn being a threat to national security.

Remember, one of Flynn's deputies lost his security clearance shortly before this story broke: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/02/11/top-flynn-deputy-denied-high-level-clearance-off-nsa-team.html.

Remember also that the suggestion is that Flynn was in contact with Russians "of interest" to intelligence services.  That seems to translate to Russian intelligence operatives.  Such relationships are a security risk and it's not ideal at all.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 16, 2017, 01:42:51 pm
I'm not sure individuals leaking information to the press whether it's coming from the White House or intelligence services isn't also a security risk and not ideal at all.

That needs to be fixed up quick smart.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 16, 2017, 01:48:50 pm
None of the leaks are illegal.  The leakers haven't committed any crime.  The information here isn't classified.  The information is that Flynn amongst others had frequent contact with Russian actors at the time of sanctions being imposed and it became apparent from this that Flynn lied to Pence.  Leakers might be sacked if identified but that's it.  This isn't analogous to Snowden's case at all. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 16, 2017, 02:13:49 pm
No guarantee that the leaks didn't come from inside the White House.  But if they came from the intelligence services, there's a pretty good chance that the leakers were concerned about Flynn being a threat to national security.

Remember, one of Flynn's deputies lost his security clearance shortly before this story broke: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/02/11/top-flynn-deputy-denied-high-level-clearance-off-nsa-team.html.

Remember also that the suggestion is that Flynn was in contact with Russians "of interest" to intelligence services.  That seems to translate to Russian intelligence operatives.  Such relationships are a security risk and it's not ideal at all.

One thing is for certain, there are very few "intelligence types" in the Trump administration! :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 16, 2017, 02:29:36 pm
None of the leaks are illegal.  The leakers haven't committed any crime.  The information here isn't classified.  The information is that Flynn amongst others had frequent contact with Russian actors at the time of sanctions being imposed and it became apparent from this that Flynn lied to Pence.  Leakers might be sacked if identified but that's it.  This isn't analogous to Snowden's case at all.

A sacking's fair enough..if they've done nothing illegal.
But they still have to go.
You can't run a government without that type of security of information.

Flynn went because he lied to (and embarrassed) Pence

Anything beyond that ...we'll have to wait for the transcripts.
If Flynn or others have been involved in illegal activities they should be subject to criminal charges.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 16, 2017, 03:15:08 pm
Bit late for Trump to complain about leaks.  Isn't he the one who said he loves Wikileaks and publicly called on Russia to do more hacks?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 16, 2017, 04:34:48 pm
Bit late for Trump to complain about leaks.  Isn't he the one who said he loves Wikileaks and publicly called on Russia to do more hacks?

Look
He's a shambles no doubt...
but it's a bit different when it's coming for within your own administration.
Now he needs to get on top of it.
That's his responsibility....but you also need to be able to trust those people under you in positions of responsibility.

I think we have to be careful that our own opinion of Trump doesn't fog our opinions of the forces against him because while there are many sound and reasoned arguments against his actions there are also some crackpots and obstructive folk out there on the other side as well.

Two wrongs don't make a right and in fact in some cases these attempts to undermine him may not play out well in the general population.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 16, 2017, 04:39:50 pm
I'm not sure individuals leaking information to the press whether it's coming from the White House or intelligence services isn't also a security risk and not ideal at all.

That needs to be fixed up quick smart.

Yep. If true you'd have to wonder about what other stuff gets fed out and what purpose/agenda it may be serving?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 16, 2017, 04:47:30 pm
@ Lods
Good post Lods.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 16, 2017, 05:39:49 pm
It would be useful if Trump appointed some people who weren't mad as cut snakes.  Appointing team players with level heads is apparently what politicians do.  So Trump rounds up a bunch of freaks to show how different he is.  I'm sure Trump channeled Baldrick as he said to himself, "I have a cunning plan."  Then, he exacerbates the problem by fostering rivalries as if he's a producer on Survivor. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 21, 2017, 10:47:52 am
Oh, the irony!  ;D

Milo Yiannopoulos is an alt-right troll and took over Brietbart News when Steve Bannon left to join Trump's campaign.  He managed to get himself banned from Twitter after leading racist, homophobic and anti-feminist trolling campaigns.  He created a storm when he tried to give a speech at Berkeley but the university banned him from doing so.  Trump then tweeted that this was an outrage, wondering what had happened to free speech - he even threatened to defund Berkeley!

Naturally, he became a hero to conservatives - so much so that CPAC (the Conservative Political Action Conference) announced he would be the keynote speaker at its upcoming conference: "We look forward to hearing Milo’s message,” and having Yiannopoulos “answer some tough questions ... at a time when political correctness is properly being discarded.” 

Free speech is always a good thing according to CPAC, but as the saying goes, sometimes you CAN have too much of a good thing. 

Video of Yiannopoulos surfaced in which he defended older men and women having consensual sex with 13 year old boys.  He said that they could often be tender coming of age moments for young boys who were seeking to understand themselves.  He thought that boys could even be predators who ultimately destroy the lives of female teachers who fall in love with them. HERE'S (https://mobile.twitter.com/ReaganBattalion/status/833347036644777985/video/1) one of the videos.

And, hey presto, CPAC has withdrawn his invitation to CPAC.  You'd even think that they have done exactly what Berkeley did.  But no!  In the words of one tweeter:

Quote
There's nothing about this that's amusing. This isn't about free speech. This is about basic decency. 

So racist and homophobic hate speech isn't an affront to basic decency, it's just free speech.


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 21, 2017, 12:55:23 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF7sAD0jf1o

Here's one bloke's view of the Donald - would be funny if it weren't so serious!  :o

PS. Bad language alert!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on February 21, 2017, 03:16:27 pm
All this hysteria from the left about Trump is why he got in. People are sick of it. It's fake news lol.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 21, 2017, 03:30:19 pm
All this hysteria from the left about Trump is why he got in. People are sick of it. It's fake news lol.

What about the hysteria from the right?

McCain's warning about Trump's attack on the free press isn't exactly fake news.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 21, 2017, 03:57:02 pm
What about the hysteria from the right?

McCain's warning about Trump's attack on the free press isn't exactly fake news.

That's not so much hysteria as a "reasoned" warning.
It's now become a question of how to deal with Trump.

A comment like McCain's...just "matter of factly" stating "that's how Dictator's start" has much more impact than some of the more vocal and hysterical approaches.

A five minute bit from Alec Baldwin or John Oliver has more impact than a dozen rallies.

It's important that the opponents of Trump remain reasoned, controlled and disciplined.
Sending him up in a comedic fashion is also useful (He actually finds this really difficult to counter, and it does get to him)...anything else plays right into his hands and he'll bounce it right back at them.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 21, 2017, 03:58:29 pm
All this hysteria from the left about Trump is why he got in. People are sick of it. It's fake news lol.

There is now no real left or right as we used to understand it, imo. Just slightly different flavours of the same thing, serving the same interests and manipulating the truth to suit their own ends. I don't really trust any of them much anymore - in fact the situation is cause for great concern.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 21, 2017, 04:05:56 pm
That's not so much hysteria as a "reasoned" warning.uuy
It's now become a question of how to deal with Trump.

A comment like McCain's...just "matter of factly" stating "that's how Dictator's start" has much more impact than some of the more vocal and hysterical approaches.

A five minute bit from Alec Baldwin or John Oliver has more impact than a dozen rallies.

It's important that the opponents of Trump remain reasoned, controlled and disciplined.
Sending him up in a comedic fashion is also useful (He actually finds this really difficult to counter, and it does get to him)...anything else plays right into his hands and he'll bounce it right back at them.

That's my point, albeit clumsily made Lods.

Reasoned criticism is dismissed as hysteria or fake news but it's harder to do so when it comes from the right, the speaker of the UK parliament for example.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 21, 2017, 04:13:12 pm
There is now no real left or right as we used to understand it, imo. Just slightly different flavours of the same thing, serving the same interests and manipulating the truth to suit their own ends. I don't really trust any of them much anymore - in fact the situation is cause for great concern.

That's the "fog of war" that's been created.
Extremism on both sides leaves you struggling to find the truth...and folks will make that judgement based on their own filtering systems.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 21, 2017, 06:22:01 pm
All this hysteria from the left about Trump is why he got in. People are sick of it. It's fake news lol.
Yeah, right ...

I guess that would explain why Trump, the GOP and right-wing wingnuts spent the 8 years of Obama's presidency concocting "real fake news" about Obama being a secret Muslim who had a forged Hawaiian birth certificate who was trying to destroy America as well as bring in death panels through Obamacare  ::)

The FoxNews/Brietbart/infowars/TeaParty/Trump hysteria was a product merely of a black American Democrat President being in the White House and not to any supposed hysteria from the left. 

As far as I'm concerned, it's now fair game for the left to regard Trump as the"so-called President".  They're merely taking a leaf out of Trump's own playbook in disqualifying the sitting President and vilifying him for selling out the USA to foreign interests. And to suggest that Trump's supporters are now only reacting to the attitude of the left is beyond laughable.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 22, 2017, 09:10:37 am
Yeah, right ...

I guess that would explain why Trump, the GOP and right-wing wingnuts spent the 8 years of Obama's presidency concocting "real fake news" about Obama being a secret Muslim who had a forged Hawaiian birth certificate who was trying to destroy America as well as bring in death panels through Obamacare  ::)

The FoxNews/Brietbart/infowars/TeaParty/Trump hysteria was a product merely of a black American Democrat President being in the White House and not to any supposed hysteria from the left. 

As far as I'm concerned, it's now fair game for the left to regard Trump as the"so-called President".  They're merely taking a leaf out of Trump's own playbook in disqualifying the sitting President and vilifying him for selling out the USA to foreign interests. And to suggest that Trump's supporters are now only reacting to the attitude of the left is beyond laughable.

Trumps own playbook??

The media are the only ones running these plays.  Create stories from nothing, report on bullcrap, and keep people looking at topics that quite simply are irrelevant to the job they are actually doing.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on February 22, 2017, 09:23:54 am
Yeah big bad Trump wants to secure their borders, how dare he?

Easy for us to throw stones when we're surrounded by oceans and if any illegals come here we send them to prison on an offshore island. ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 22, 2017, 10:40:00 am
Trumps own playbook??

The media are the only ones running these plays.  Create stories from nothing, report on bullcrap, and keep people looking at topics that quite simply are irrelevant to the job they are actually doing.

You have to look at and consider who actually owns the media.

As Mike Moore quipped before the election of Trump - "This is going to be the biggest FU in history!"
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 22, 2017, 12:28:05 pm
You have to look at and consider who actually owns the media.

As Mike Moore quipped before the election of Trump - "This is going to be the biggest FU in history!"

I would buy into that theory, but the media serves up propaganda and slander as news.

What I was hoping to highlight was that this couldn't be trumps playbook as it has been repeated throughout history.

It would also be laughable to suggest that Trump started it during the Obama years.

This is party politics being confused with fact.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 22, 2017, 02:13:46 pm
Perhaps you might provide some concrete examples regarding Trump so we can see how much the media has promulgated "fake news" rather than telling it like it is and not as Trump would like it to be. 

As for the insinuation that the media has a liberal bias in the US, that's just about the biggest load of nonsense I've heard.  FoxNews is so biased in favour of conservative politics that it isn't funny.  It's boast that it's "fair and balanced" must surely be a tongue-in-cheek joke.  Then you have Brietbart which is an AltRight mouthpiece.  How surprising that Steve Bannon was at Brietbart prior to joining Trump.  Jared Kushner, Trump's son-in-law and member of Trump's team, owns the New York Observer.  Papers, TV stations and online services span the political spectrum. 

Trump's complaints about "fake news" aren't made about unsubstantiated reports - they seem to be trotted out when particularly well-researched items hit the papers.  No one doubts that the stories about General Flynn's contacts with Russians were absolutely true - Trump complained that the leakers had broken the law rather than made up the story.  Nevertheless, he claimed that the reports were "fake news".  The reports about TrumpU and Trump's charity were also well researched. 

An interesting development is that Trump's White House is refusing to comment when journalists seek comment about reports they're going to file but then immediately the White House claims those stories are false when they are published.  Journalists seek comment in part so they can kill a story if there's no substance to it.  An example of this was when a journalist discovered a policy paper which suggested that the Home Guard might be enlisted to round up illegal immigrants.  Comment was sought and none was given.  The story ran.  Then the White House thundered about how untrue it was to suggest that this was being considered.  The fact that the position paper was true wasn't disputed - the only objection was that it had been dismissed as an option.  Hmmm ... you'd think that would have been an easy comment to make before the story was published. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 22, 2017, 03:08:36 pm
Perhaps you might provide some concrete examples regarding Trump so we can see how much the media has promulgated "fake news" rather than telling it like it is and not as Trump would like it to be. 

As for the insinuation that the media has a liberal bias in the US, that's just about the biggest load of nonsense I've heard.  FoxNews is so biased in favour of conservative politics that it isn't funny.  It's boast that it's "fair and balanced" must surely be a tongue-in-cheek joke.  Then you have Brietbart which is an AltRight mouthpiece.  How surprising that Steve Bannon was at Brietbart prior to joining Trump.  Jared Kushner, Trump's son-in-law and member of Trump's team, owns the New York Observer.  Papers, TV stations and online services span the political spectrum. 

Trump's complaints about "fake news" aren't made about unsubstantiated reports - they seem to be trotted out when particularly well-researched items hit the papers.  No one doubts that the stories about General Flynn's contacts with Russians were absolutely true - Trump complained that the leakers had broken the law rather than made up the story.  Nevertheless, he claimed that the reports were "fake news".  The reports about TrumpU and Trump's charity were also well researched. 

An interesting development is that Trump's White House is refusing to comment when journalists seek comment about reports they're going to file but then immediately the White House claims those stories are false when they are published.  Journalists seek comment in part so they can kill a story if there's no substance to it.  An example of this was when a journalist discovered a policy paper which suggested that the Home Guard might be enlisted to round up illegal immigrants.  Comment was sought and none was given.  The story ran.  Then the White House thundered about how untrue it was to suggest that this was being considered.  The fact that the position paper was true wasn't disputed - the only objection was that it had been dismissed as an option.  Hmmm ... you'd think that would have been an easy comment to make before the story was published.

misrepresenting what I am saying, and attacking what is known as "the straw man" will simply achieve nought.

The news is anything but balanced in its reporting and simply spouts propaganda, dressed like news stories.  They are as quick to condemn and praise the same event, to keep the conversation rolling on any topic, recycle stories, and often attempt to socially engineer more than report facts.

Why?  I don't know, and frankly I don't care.  The whole presidency and election process is to provide Joe Average the illusion of choice, and keep them focussed away from where the balance of power in the USA really lies.

Now go eat up your reality television about people who simply cannot be real and keep up with the kardashians.  You cannot seperate the stories they deliver from the overall programming (interesting word that one) and hope to present a "balanced" argument when talking about the crap these people serve the public.

You're just sour that you can't tar Trump with this brush because its an age old tactic



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 22, 2017, 03:30:14 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BdhDjqtCSQ
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 22, 2017, 04:07:42 pm
misrepresenting what I am saying, and attacking what is known as "the straw man" will simply achieve nought.
Maybe you should accept the blame for not making your meaning plain.  Even after your 2nd attempt, you've failed to clarify it (other than repeating the general complaint that the Meeja is creating fake news - you know, that monolithic entity which everyone knows is playing evil games).

Maybe some examples could clarify what you mean.  But I've already asked for them and got nada.  But why let a good conspiracy theory get bogged down in facts. 

I suppose you could have put forward FoxNews coverage of Trump's claim that Obama was born overseas and the insinuation that he's actually a Muslim who spent his time trying to help the Muslim terrorists win.   Or maybe the Bowling Green Massacre.  Or the fact that serious crime is the worst for 50 years (even though it isn't by a long shot).  Etc. etc.  Sorry to tar Trump with that - hope you forgive me. 

Quote
Sen. John McCain spoke out Saturday in defense of the free press after President Trump lashed out against the news media several times over the past week, at one point declaring it “the enemy of the American People!”

Such talk, McCain (R-Ariz.) said on NBC News in an interview set to air Sunday, was “how dictators get started.”

“In other words, a consolidation of power,” McCain told “Meet the Press” host Chuck Todd from Munich. “When you look at history, the first thing that dictators do is shut down the press. And I'm not saying that President Trump is trying to be a dictator. I'm just saying we need to learn the lessons of history.”

The 80-year-old Republican senator was responding to several tweets by Trump over the past week, in which he repeatedly attacked the media as “fake news.” In one widely shared tweet Friday, Trump said the press was “not my enemy” but that of the American people.

In it, Trump tagged the New York Times, CNN and broadcast news networks NBC, ABC and CBS.

In the backlash to the tweet, #NotTheEnemy began trending, with people sharing stories about journalists who had dedicated their lives to — and, in some instances, paid the ultimate price for — reporting the news.

In the “Meet the Press” interview, McCain told Todd that a free press was central to a functional democracy, even if news organizations' stories challenged those being held accountable.

“I hate the press. I hate you, especially,” he said to Todd, who laughed. “But the fact is, we need you. We need a free press. We must have it. It's vital.”

“If you want to preserve democracy as we know it, you have to have a free and, many times, adversarial press,” McCain added. “And without it, I am afraid that we would lose so much of our individual liberties over time. That's how dictators get started.”

Which is not to say that all media coverage is good.  As I've noted, Brietbart, FoxNews and Alex Jones are real exponents of fake news.  But to use them to beat quality journalists over the head is like saying that Carlton players are drug cheats because Essendon players were. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 22, 2017, 04:28:00 pm
Maybe you should accept the blame for not making your meaning plain.  Even after your 2nd attempt, you've failed to clarify it (other than repeating the general complaint that the Meeja is creating fake news - you know, that monolithic entity which everyone knows is playing evil games).

Maybe some examples could clarify what you mean.  But I've already asked for them and got nada.  But why let a good conspiracy theory get bogged down in facts. 

I suppose you could have put forward FoxNews coverage of Trump's claim that Obama was born overseas and the insinuation that he's actually a Muslim who spent his time trying to help the Muslim terrorists win.   Or maybe the Bowling Green Massacre.  Or the fact that serious crime is the worst for 50 years (even though it isn't by a long shot).  Etc. etc.  Sorry to tar Trump with that - hope you forgive me. 

Which is not to say that all media coverage is good.  As I've noted, Brietbart, FoxNews and Alex Jones are real exponents of fake news.  But to use them to beat quality journalists over the head is like saying that Carlton players are drug cheats because Essendon players were.

The part I find funny, is you believing I am standing up for Trump when I state this stuff.

The media, has and always be full of crap, and that dates back as far as the French revolution as far as I am concerned.

Or you can keep refuting my facts with the apparent straw mans argument you have created, and then attacked.


What I was hoping to highlight was that this couldn't be trumps playbook as it has been repeated throughout history.


He isnt the first, nor will he be the last.  The next president will be attacked with the same bullcrap, as this one and the previous one before him.


As for me being at fault for not making things clearer, you cannot blame me for how you decided to respond to something I have written based on an assumption you have made.  Particularly when you are the mayor of legal speak.

This is a conversational forum, not a place for people to provide a body of evidence to substantiate any point made. 


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 22, 2017, 04:36:12 pm
What I was hoping to highlight was that this couldn't be trumps playbook as it has been repeated throughout history.

He isnt the first, nor will he be the last.  The next president will be attacked with the same bullcrap, as this one and the previous one before him.
And there you have it - a particularly impressive straw man argument.  Please tell me where in hell I suggested he was the first to use such tactics.  So you can't have a playbook unless it contains original strategies?  You know there's no copyright on playbooks, don't you?  It's been no secret that he's been riding on the coattails of the AltRight ever since he first called a press conference over Obama's birth certificate.  Neither originality nor ideology has been his bedrock, but he's just been better at selling their politics.  As I know you hate straw man arguments, I know you'll be giving me a grovelling apology in due course.  Waiting, waiting ...

Now, if that was your big point, whoop-di-do. 

PS: At least Trump can make a claim to raising bald-faced lying to a new level.  His lack of embarrassment about being caught red-handed in lies must make him quite exceptional even in the world of politics.  He truly is the Liar-in-Chief.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 22, 2017, 04:41:03 pm
When I read Mav's reply #181, I don't get the impression that Mav implies the strategy is Trump's original idea. You seem to be getting hung up on a minor detail.

The playbook for most politicians starts with "denounce the opposition as much as possible", and then deteriorates rapidly from there.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 22, 2017, 05:09:18 pm
The term "controlling the narrative" springs to mind.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 22, 2017, 07:11:22 pm
I found out today you can purchase the Trump manifesto, it's been out for years!

"The Men Who Stare at Goats."

Forword allegedly by Andrew Bolt! ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 22, 2017, 08:38:27 pm
Who knew ?

http://www.smh.com.au/business/comment-and-analysis/unskilled-and-unable-why-donald-trumps-great-jobs-promise-is-a-lie-20170222-guijx3.html
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 22, 2017, 09:17:46 pm
Who knew ?

http://www.smh.com.au/business/comment-and-analysis/unskilled-and-unable-why-donald-trumps-great-jobs-promise-is-a-lie-20170222-guijx3.html

Fake news?

Trump managed to convince a lot of needy voters that he had solutions to a range of problems confronting the USA (and many other countries).  Unfortunately for them, and even more so for the majority of voters who didn't buy his carefully orchestrated media marketing exercise, simplistic solutions to complex problems lead to unforeseen consequences.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 22, 2017, 09:32:25 pm
And history will repeat itself when it comes to the broad brush strokes of Republican tax/economic policy.  They rail against deficits, yet the deficit always seems to balloon when they control the White House.

The main reason this happens is because of their obsession with tax cuts.  They favour the rich disproportionately and they are justified by magical claims that the rich will put the money they save into new investments which will create new tax sources that will more than offset the loss of tax revenue.  The problem is that economists have never identified one case when this actually happened. 

The next major hurdle is that they are also obsessed by ploughing a lot more money into the military and that often seems to help out their mates in that industry.  Often that money is wasted because it's spent on equipment that the military doesn't even want - weaponry and munitions that would have been brilliant in previous wars but not those that are likely to be fought in the future.  But there are lobbyists and influential congressmen who need some pork barrels to take home to their companies and districts.  I can see Trump demanding more battleships to show those Chinese that the US Navy is still top dog.

Republican President also have a habit of getting the US involved in major military conflicts, which increases spending.

Now Trump is making a $25b commitment to build a wall and the new deportation drive will be costly as well. 

So falling revenues and increasing government spending on non-welfare areas means the deficit will go up.  Then the Republicans will demand that social services be slashed to balance the books.  And when the next Democratic President enters the White House, the GOP will refuse to allow any budgets pass which don't slash spending on social services or which attempt to increase taxes to pay for Trump's deficit. 

At least some GOP budget hawks are showing signs that they might resist Trump's spending plans, but in the end they'll probably decide that they can bide their time until the Dems get back in.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 22, 2017, 09:51:17 pm
It will be interesting to see how the Trump admin approaches the growing power and global influence of the China/Russia/Iran axis in order to ensure US global supremacy. Will it move away from colour revolutions, regime change, Islamic jihad and creation of chaos as employed by the previous administrations or try plan B?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 22, 2017, 10:01:18 pm
Yeah, right ...

I guess that would explain why Trump, the GOP and right-wing wingnuts spent the 8 years of Obama's presidency concocting "real fake news" about Obama being a secret Muslim who had a forged Hawaiian birth certificate who was trying to destroy America as well as bring in death panels through Obamacare  ::)

The FoxNews/Brietbart/infowars/TeaParty/Trump hysteria was a product merely of a black American Democrat President being in the White House and not to any supposed hysteria from the left. 

As far as I'm concerned, it's now fair game for the left to regard Trump as the"so-called President".  They're merely taking a leaf out of Trump's own playbook in disqualifying the sitting President and vilifying him for selling out the USA to foreign interests. And to suggest that Trump's supporters are now only reacting to the attitude of the left is beyond laughable.

This is what I see you saying.

End.

I don't know why you're so hung up on it, but whatever floats your boat.   I can quote you again if you like.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 22, 2017, 10:08:25 pm
This is what I see you saying.

End.

I don't know why you're so hung up on it, but whatever floats your boat.   I can quote you again if you like.

Even the most casual observer of US politics would have to agree that Trump's birther lie was an unprecedented, prolonged and baseless attack on the incumbent POTUS.  Trump and his supporters can bleat all they like, but he set the ground rules and now has to live by them.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 22, 2017, 10:09:45 pm
In other news, the balanced media like to paint trump as unhinged,  but our own sixty minutes got attacked in an Islamic enclave in Sweden months back, and trump has his finger on the pulse with this nugget, which turns out to be accurate.

http://www.afr.com/news/politics/world/first-donald-trump-said-it-then-riots-erupt-in-stockholm-immigrant-suburb-20170221-gui939

They must have heard he said they were violent.   If you can't beat them join them???

@DJC, I don't really care.  I find the three ringed American circus exactly that.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 22, 2017, 10:13:32 pm
I also dislike Trump but I detest petulance in general particularly when it's served up with an air of superiority and arrogance to go with it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 22, 2017, 10:19:34 pm
In other news, the balanced media like to paint trump as unhinged,  but our own sixty minutes got attacked in an Islamic enclave in Sweden months back, and trump has his finger on the pulse with this nugget, which turns out to be accurate.

http://www.afr.com/news/politics/world/first-donald-trump-said-it-then-riots-erupt-in-stockholm-immigrant-suburb-20170221-gui939

They must have heard he said they were violent.   If you can't beat them join them???

@DJC, I don't really care.  I find the three ringed American circus exactly that.

Fake news Thry!  Rinkeby is home to immigrants but also has a significant population of unemployed Swedes.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 22, 2017, 10:22:13 pm
You must have REALLY hated it, then, when Trump refused to say he'd accept the result of the election, although he did eventually say that he would, "if I win".  Can't get more superiority and arrogance than that.  And he can hardly complain now that others follow his lead.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on February 22, 2017, 10:28:28 pm
In other news, the balanced media like to paint trump as unhinged,  but our own sixty minutes got attacked in an Islamic enclave in Sweden months back, and trump has his finger on the pulse with this nugget, which turns out to be accurate.

http://www.afr.com/news/politics/world/first-donald-trump-said-it-then-riots-erupt-in-stockholm-immigrant-suburb-20170221-gui939

They must have heard he said they were violent.   If you can't beat them join them???

@DJC, I don't really care.  I find the three ringed American circus exactly that.

Domestic US politics does look that way Thry. A lot of diversions imo. The main game is in the pursuit of power, influence and riches around the globe and Trump represents a change of approach to this. Those guys in the rust belt won't be getting their jobs back that's for sure.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 22, 2017, 10:30:03 pm
@Mav, yep I reckon he's a douchebag.

On some level though, I think the people sometimes get the leader they deserve.

Given their guns policies and also their foreign policy he seems a good fit for them.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 22, 2017, 10:44:06 pm
True.  I have little sympathy for them.  They should pay a price for handing over the keys to the White House to that narcissistic moron.  I just hope they don't drag us (and the rest of the world) down with them.  In particular, I hope Turnbull doesn't get sucked in to sending our top-of-the-line rubber dinghies with small calibre pea-shooters to accompany the US Navy in the South China Sea.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 22, 2017, 11:01:55 pm
@Mav, yep I reckon he's a douchebag.

On some level though, I think the people sometimes get the leader they deserve.

Given their guns policies and also their foreign policy he seems a good fit for them.

There's some truth in that Thry but probably only 40-45%.  I really feel sorry for my American friends and (distant) family.  Some of them are Trump supporters but most are not, and they're all good people.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 23, 2017, 04:56:06 pm
You must have REALLY hated it, then, when Trump refused to say he'd accept the result of the election, although he did eventually say that he would, "if I win".  Can't get more superiority and arrogance than that.  And he can hardly complain now that others follow his lead.

See.... this is where we deviate....and it's something that the "hard core Trump" detractors have difficulty coming to grips with.
I have little faith in him being an even adequate President but...
Because that's a stand he took (not accepting the result ) doesn't justify the other side following a similar approach.
In fact it displays an equal  "superiority and arrogance "
Go to his level and he'll beat you to a pulp.
You're fighting his kind of fight.

http://time.com/4538117/presidential-debate-hillary-clinton-gaggle/

Quote

Buoyant after wrapping up the third and final presidential debate, Hillary Clinton stepped onto her campaign plane late Wednesday night and continued to hammer Donald Trump for suggesting he might not accept the result of November's election.

"It was horrifying what he said," Clinton told reporters, referring to her Republican opponent's remark that he would keep the American public "in suspense" about whether he would question the outcome of a race that he says is rigged. "we are a country based on laws. And we’ve had hot, contested elections going back to the very beginning, but one of our hallmarks has always been that we accept the outcomes of our elections."
America has "free and fair elections," the Democratic nominee continued. "Somebody wins and somebody loses. So what he said tonight is part of his whole effort to blame somebody else for his campaign."

Oppose policy and actions by all means (there's plenty there to work with there)... but accept the result.
Otherwise you're an equally divisive element.
The "not my president" brigade won't change the opinion of many at all, in fact I suspect it will have a counter effect.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 23, 2017, 05:40:00 pm
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

My opinion is that when you face an opponent who plays hardball, you play hardball too.  As Tony Abbott and the GOP during Obama's Presidency have shown, being oppositional is very effective in turning opinion against the incumbent.  The Dems can't allow the Republicans to go for the jugular all the time without fighting back.  Sadly, the best game plan is to apply the blowtorch to Trump and watch him lose it.  The last thing the Dems should do is allow him to do his schtick as a colourful buffoon while they bend over backwards to make his administration work.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 23, 2017, 05:45:11 pm
Trump will do what it takes for him to profit, expect nothing more or nothing less. If you're cashed up you can ride his coattails, if you're  just making ends meet you're screwed!

The sad thing is, the people on struggle street in middle America voted him in on a promise of jobs and security. The only security they will get is the securities' kick in the arse as the rich evict them!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 25, 2017, 04:55:38 pm
In Trump's battle with the media he is right in one respect, many of them are as guilty of making stuff up, reporting their opinions as fact, and cherry picking data, as Trump himself!

By going down the same track as Trump, by publishing opinion as fact, they play into his hands.

All they have to do is stay clean, highlight when his opinions aren't supported by fact, and only publish facts not opinions. And they would be fine, and he'd be in a world of pain!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: thrunthrublu on February 25, 2017, 07:56:30 pm
first time their national debt has reduced rather than increased.
Media has not and will not report that.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 25, 2017, 08:01:07 pm
first time their national debt has reduced rather than increased.
Media has not and will not report that.

Depends who is in charge and what they report.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: thrunthrublu on February 25, 2017, 08:03:52 pm
Depends who is in charge and what they report.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/02/trump-cuts-us-debt-burden-by-12-billion-in-his-first-month/
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 26, 2017, 09:59:42 am
Former economic council director derides Trump's debt tweet (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/trump-debt-tweet-keith-hennessey-nec-235396), HuffPost.

Wow, I never thought anyone would ever cite the Gateway Pundit as a news source.  It's Trump's Pravda.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 26, 2017, 04:17:32 pm
Former economic council director derides Trump's debt tweet (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/trump-debt-tweet-keith-hennessey-nec-235396), HuffPost.

Wow, I never thought anyone would ever cite the Gateway Pundit as a news source.  It's Trump's Pravda.

What a difference a day makes! :)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: thrunthrublu on February 27, 2017, 12:54:03 am
Former economic council director derides Trump's debt tweet (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/trump-debt-tweet-keith-hennessey-nec-235396), HuffPost.

Wow, I never thought anyone would ever cite the Gateway Pundit as a news source.  It's Trump's Pravda.

politico? LOL.. don't get me started.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 28, 2017, 11:17:42 am
Wowee!!!!! Trump just caused the national debt to soar by over $16 Billion IN ONE DAY :o

Extrapolating that over the remainder of his term (assuming he isn't impeached), he will increase the National debt by $23,167,896,156,960.82.  In other words, he will double the national debt!

Total debt 23/2/17: $19,913,901,120,188.15
Total debt 24/2/17: $19,930,147,891,686.72

Will Trump address this?  Will he explain how he stuffed it up so badly and how he's going to fix it?  Of course not.  He cites statistics when they suit him but ignores those that don't.


PS: The above is tongue-in-cheek.  Trump chose to tweet about a MEANINGLESS STATISTIC.  That much is apparent from the memorandum of Keith Hennessy, a link to which is to be found in the Politico article to be found in my previous post.  He is a former Director of the US National Economic Council under George W Bush.  In other words, he was at the top of the tree in terms of delivering econometric advice to the White House.  He understands data such as National Debt figures.  I'd imagine that just about everyone on this site would have little knowledge in this area other than thinking "debt is bad". So, maybe his opinion should count for something.

He stated firmly that the statistic is meaningless.  It fluctuates, so comparing statistics a day or month apart isn't useful.  Moreover, he notes that Trump didn't cause the fluctuations, so he can't take credit for them.  He also points out that Obama confronted the GFC at the start of his term and used a stimulus package to address it.

But is this the new normal of debating?  Instead of addressing the merits of the opinion of Hennessey (which was accurately summarised in the headline), it's dismissed simply because it is referenced by Politico?  I hope that the standards of debating will improve both on this site and in the US.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 28, 2017, 12:24:19 pm
PS: The above is tongue-in-cheek.  Trump chose to tweet about a MEANINGLESS STATISTIC.  That much is apparent from the memorandum of Keith Hennessy, a link to which is to be found in the Politico article to be found in my previous post.  He is a former Director of the US National Economic Council under George W Bush.  In other words, he was at the top of the tree in terms of delivering econometric advice to the White House.  He understands data such as National Debt figures.  I'd imagine that just about everyone on this site would have little knowledge in this area other than thinking "debt is bad". So, maybe his opinion should count for something.

He stated firmly that the statistic is meaningless.  It fluctuates, so comparing statistics a day or month apart isn't useful.  Moreover, he notes that Trump didn't cause the fluctuations, so he can't take credit for them.  He also points out that Obama confronted the GFC at the start of his term and used a stimulus package to address it.

But is this the new normal of debating?  Instead of addressing the merits of the opinion of Hennessey (which was accurately summarised in the headline), it's dismissed simply because it is referenced by Politico?  I hope that the standards of debating will improve both on this site and in the US.

Unfortunately MAV nobody is going to read this bit, especially the Trump boosters because they don't want to.

Everybody picks and choses what to quote and what to believe. I've had the same sorts of discussions on this forum about Australian debt, who was responsible for the improvements and who claims responsibility can be decades out of sync. I have a very good source, someone almost as high as you can get in Australian fiscal bureaucracy, that tells me political fiscal policy takes decades to impact the economy making results within one election term almost meaningless.

Trump and his like rely on the ignorance of readers to claim responsibility for short term changes and fluctuations that are meaningless relative to his recent actions.

btw; We can apply the same critical logic to the Zika reporting debate, and also to those recent fresh claims of doom about the pending impact of Ross River Fever. In both cases it is administrators and executives using the very same tactics as Trump, to extrapolate figures from short term fluctuations to garnish funding / support. That is not to say governments shouldn't act, but they shouldn't panic either, I wish they would report the facts and not the cherry picked facts.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 28, 2017, 12:39:28 pm
Good reads, MavMan and Spotted One. For someone who is illiterate in such matters your insights are much appreciated.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 28, 2017, 06:09:11 pm
Here's another doozy from the world's most powerful moron:
Quote
‘Nobody knew that health care could be so complicated’.

Errr...EVERYBODY (except Trump) knew that health care is as complicated as things can be.

Wonder if the bungled special forces operation in Yemen which saw a soldier die in a firefight led Trump to say, "Who knew that special forces operations could be deadly?"

Man, Forrest Gump and Being There have a lot to answer for in perpetuating the American myth that the lucky,naive and stupid beginner can outshine those who know what they're doing. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 28, 2017, 07:12:46 pm
Here's another doozy from the world's most powerful moron:
Errr...EVERYBODY (except Trump) knew that health care is as complicated as things can be.

Wonder if the bungled special forces operation in Yemen which saw a soldier die in a firefight led Trump to say, "Who knew that special forces operations could be deadly?"

Man, Forrest Gump and Being There have a lot to answer for in perpetuating the American myth that the lucky,naive and stupid beginner can outshine those who know what they're doing.

Don't forget the Simpsons episode where Homer meets his half brother, and the half brother gets Homer to design a car for the common man, ignoring the advice of his professional staff.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on March 01, 2017, 02:08:25 pm
It seems that the leader of the free world (that's Rupert Murdoch) has decided that he doesn't like the people who are running the POTUS and has turned the Wall St Journal loose on them.

Interesting times could become even more interesting  :-\
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on March 02, 2017, 01:33:05 pm
It seems that the leader of the free world (that's Rupert Murdoch) has decided that he doesn't like the people who are running the POTUS and has turned the Wall St Journal loose on them.

Interesting times could become even more interesting  :-\


The Donald himself may be in big trouble though, as a rival "front person" may be about to emerge for 2020!  ::)


http://www.theage.com.au/video/video-entertainment/video-entertainment-news/oprah-hints-at-running-for-president-20170301-4r7ba.html
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on March 02, 2017, 04:34:00 pm
It seems that the leader of the free world (that's Rupert Murdoch) has decided that he doesn't like the people who are running the POTUS and has turned the Wall St Journal loose on them.

Interesting times could become even more interesting  :-\
You're timing was impeccable, DJC!

https://www.wsj.com/articles/investigators-probed-jeff-sessions-contacts-with-russian-officials-1488424871?emailToken=JRrzfvh5Y3mUgNM8bMw90kMldbUJBOaVQUnMaWjQPULBuDnXrOyvgr44nMC2pmW0AE194cwN5HIkACLQnGovRtKKgL92lxKjdXdcpZDN1RbOYxiLzBLQIbpD7w%3D%3D (https://www.wsj.com/articles/investigators-probed-jeff-sessions-contacts-with-russian-officials-1488424871?emailToken=JRrzfvh5Y3mUgNM8bMw90kMldbUJBOaVQUnMaWjQPULBuDnXrOyvgr44nMC2pmW0AE194cwN5HIkACLQnGovRtKKgL92lxKjdXdcpZDN1RbOYxiLzBLQIbpD7w%3D%3D)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Dominator_7 on March 02, 2017, 04:41:37 pm
(http://memesagainsttrump.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/IMG_1104.jpg)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on March 02, 2017, 05:56:08 pm
Lol
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: thrunthrublu on March 04, 2017, 07:40:09 pm
You have a current debt in a country of USD20 trillion, up 10 trillion in 2 terms of a presidency by the same person with little or no discernible infrastructure improvement
An unsustainable 106% debt to GDP ratio, the highest ever in American history and has been in an upward trajectory since 2008
A treasonous government mired in corruption and a compromised congress. I could go on and on, but cant be fkd

It was never going to get better. They offered up more of the same. Their campaign was lazy, personal, and lacked meaningful optimism for change. She was the wrong candidate and severely underestimated her opponent, who was the underdog and simply outworked her.
Dont let the circus antics of incompetent cobblers with agendas and hollywood filth distract you. McCarthyism is in overdrive. Its the same heads, using the same systems and rackets  to preserve diminishing power and influence at any cost from a buffoon that just simply doesn't buy in to them
Politicians are not my favorite species of humanity, so in america, given the filth lurking in the shadows,  its a case of who i dislike least, and who certain others complain about more.
You cant impeach a president cause you don't like em LOL. If you truly believe in a democracy, the will of the electoral college needs to be respected for this elected leader to deliver on his contract with the people upon being elected.
Perhaps the DNC will learn in future not to tamper with primaries to deliver the best possible candidate for the people and not others - Perhaps not.



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on March 04, 2017, 07:56:25 pm
Perhaps the DNC will learn in future not to tamper with primaries to deliver the best possible candidate for the people and not others - Perhaps not.

There was plenty of tampering on both sides, they are not even secretive about it!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on March 05, 2017, 12:45:48 pm
http://www.voltairenet.org/article195455.html

Came across this article recently during my meanderings on the internet which I think is a good potential insight into some of what may be going on behind the scenes in US politics atm. It is focused on possible activities of Clinton interests but similar is probably true as far as the Donald team is concerned. I found it quite interesting.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on March 05, 2017, 08:26:44 pm
Well, as a contributor to Russian papers, I'm sure he's got the inside word.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on March 05, 2017, 08:29:05 pm
Well, as a contributor to Russian papers, I'm sure he's got the inside word.

 :))

Fairly predictable response.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on March 05, 2017, 10:26:17 pm
Hmmm ... if the response was predictable, then you were aware of his links to Russia. Interesting.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on March 05, 2017, 10:28:28 pm
Hmmm ... if the response was predictable, then you were aware of his links to Russia. Interesting.

Those Ruskies are everywhere! Are you with the CIA or the FBI?  :))
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on March 05, 2017, 10:40:28 pm
It's interesting how the Russians were funding Marine Le Pen's campaign for the French presidency until the  First Czech Russian Bank OOO went under.  She's struggling now that no-one else has stepped into the breech.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on March 05, 2017, 10:45:33 pm
I agree - they are unfairly maligned.  Just look at the way they were banned from the Olympics.  Like, as if they'd run a State-sanctioned doping program.  Vlad said they didn't and as a prestigious world statesman that should have been enough.  Just like Essendon FC, they're the victims of a witchhunt unleashed pursuant to a conspiracy.  And then there's the suggestion Vlad had Russian journos and political opponents assassinated.  OMG, that's ripped out of a James Bond novel, isn't it?  That's not the way the head of a large democracy operates.  Because that's what Russia is - a democracy.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on March 05, 2017, 11:24:48 pm
And of course the good ol' USA and that paragon of virtue and neo con front man  Obama would not dream of inciting colour revolutions, funding regime change, financial looting, appropriation of a countries national assets, funding of jihadist terrorism, causing hundreds of thousands of deaths etc etc. The US has been at war implementing neo con strategies for the whole 8 years of his presidency.

These guys don't just stop at trying to influence an election. They, the US neo con elite and its paid underlings are totally ruthless and more than a match for Putin. Btw they just happen to have Russia completely surrounded with military bases and will have ICBM capabilities in place in Eastern Europe by next year. And no, I didn't read that in a Russian publication.

Anyway, if you think that's not worth any attention well that's up to you, your in good company as the western MSM don't either - it's probably just conspiracy theory anyway eh?  ::)

The Russians are not perfect that is for sure, and I would not trust them, but I believe there is real danger coming from a lot closer (metaphorically)  to home. If anyone is sincerely interested in this then do your own reading - I'm not trying to influence your thinking - find out for yourselves

Anyhow I don't think there's any more to be gained by discussing this any further on here. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on March 05, 2017, 11:48:29 pm
Credibility counts.  The author is a major conspiracy theorist who published a couple of books called The Big Lie and Pentagate.  In the first, he argued that 9/11 was a false flag operation by the US military/industrial complex in order to impose military rule, employing Bin Laden who was a US agent.  In the second, he suggested that the Pentagon was struck, not by a plane but by a missile strike ordered by White House Right-wingers.  Look, maybe some find this sort of conspiracy theory worthy, but I don't.  I see it as a red flag, pardon the pun.  Add that to his links with Russia and I think he has a credibility problem.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on March 06, 2017, 12:18:27 am
Credibility counts.  The author is a major conspiracy theorist who published a couple of books called The Big Lie and Pentagate.  In the first, he argued that 9/11 was a false flag operation by the US military/industrial complex in order to impose military rule, employing Bin Laden who was a US agent.  In the second, he suggested that the Pentagon was struck, not by a plane but by a missile strike ordered by White House Right-wingers.  Look, maybe some find this sort of conspiracy theory worthy, but I don't.  I see it as a red flag, pardon the pun.  Add that to his links with Russia and I think he has a credibility problem.

There are many others who subscribe to the 9/11 false flag theories - he is by no means alone on that.  Some who I believe are credible and serious journalistic sources in the US share the same concerns/doubts as to the official version of events.

As far as the military/industrial complex is concerned, it is well known to be totally ruthless in preserving its $1TR annual budget. The US was warned about its rising influence post WW2 many years ago by Eisenhower when he left office. I personally don't know whether there's any truth to it there have been enough significant doubts raised by plenty of experts about the official version of events.

As for his "links" with Russia, apart from his having published stuff in Russia, I don't know, but I would certainly give him as much credibility as I do the MSM, especially that in the US.

Anyway, if you think it's all conspiracy theories (term invented by the CIA) that's up to you, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise  - me, I continue to watch and keep an open mind.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on March 06, 2017, 12:30:49 am
There are many others who subscribe to the 9/11 false flag theories - he is by no means alone on that.  Some who I believe are credible and serious journalistic sources in the US share the same concerns/doubts as to the official version of events.

As far as the military/industrial complex is concerned, it is well known to be totally ruthless in preserving its $1TR annual budget. The US was warned about its rising influence post WW2 many years ago by Eisenhower when he left office. I personally don't know whether there's any truth to it there have been enough significant doubts raised by plenty of experts about the official version of events.

As for his "links" with Russia, apart from his having published stuff in Russia, I don't know, but I would certainly give him as much credibility as I do the MSM, especially that in the US.

Anyway, if you think it's all conspiracy theories (term invented by the CIA) that's up to you, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise  - me, I continue to watch and keep an open mind.

And they are all fruit loops  ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on March 06, 2017, 12:46:50 am
And they are all fruit loops  ::)

Do you know who they are? Are you familiar with details of the case they are making. Or is that your off the cuff opinion?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on March 06, 2017, 01:24:36 am
But here's the thing.  Even those who doubt the official version of the WTC collapse have little time for the Pentagon conspiracy theory. 

Here's an article entitled "The Pentagon No-757-Crash Theory: Booby Trap for 9/11 Skeptics" written byJim Hoffman, a leading 9/11 sceptic, in which he debunked the work of Messnay and others: http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagontrap.html (http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagontrap.html).

Once you get caught out peddling falsehoods, I'm afraid you have little credibility.  If any facts (not opinions or insinuations) asserted by Messnay can be independently verified, then those facts can properly enter the debate.  But if he claims it's raining, you wouldn't believe it unless you stuck your head out the window to see for yourself.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on March 06, 2017, 01:44:48 am
But here's the thing.  Even those who doubt the official version of the WTC collapse have little time for the Pentagon conspiracy theory. 

Here's an article entitled "The Pentagon No-757-Crash Theory: Booby Trap for 9/11 Skeptics" written byJim Hoffman, a leading 9/11 sceptic, in which he debunked the work of Messnay and others: http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagontrap.html (http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagontrap.html).

Once you get caught out peddling falsehoods, I'm afraid you have little credibility.  If any facts (not opinions or insinuations) asserted by Messnay can be independently verified, then those facts can properly enter the debate.  But if he claims it's raining, you wouldn't believe it unless you stuck your head out the window to see for yourself.

So how come you are prepared to take on board all the stuff about Russia influencing the US elections when, to my knowledge no serious proof or evidence has been tabled? Shouldn't that in your parlance be classified as conspiracy theory?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: sandsmere on March 06, 2017, 06:28:26 am


Once you get caught out peddling falsehoods, I'm afraid you have little credibility. 

eg. Bill and Hilary Clinton.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: shawny on March 06, 2017, 07:56:56 am
eg. Bill and Hilary Clinton.

 ;D ;D 'I did not have sexual relations with that girl'

And she's a snake as well. Suit each other.

 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on March 06, 2017, 08:21:27 am
So how come you are prepared to take on board all the stuff about Russia influencing the US elections when, to my knowledge no serious proof or evidence has been tabled? Shouldn't that in your parlance be classified as conspiracy theory?

If Trump divests himself of all his Russian assets some of the problems might go away, but at the moment his organisation has $B dependant on the kindness of Putin.

Do you have faith that Trump will do the right thing when it comes down to a world view versus his bank accounts?

Further, some of his key appointments work in oil and has a vested interest in what goes down in the major pipelines servicing Europe from Turkey and the Ukraine. In everyday terms it's called a conflict of interest and it's becoming more common in politics by the day. Just because some have gotten away with it in the past doesn't make this occurrence acceptable, better or more benign.

When a decision has to be made about some events in that region, do you trust them to do the right thing by the people or the right thing by their accounts?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on March 06, 2017, 09:12:25 am
If Trump divests himself of all his Russian assets some of the problems might go away, but at the moment his organisation has $B dependant on the kindness of Putin.

Do you have faith that Trump will do the right thing when it comes down to a world view versus his bank accounts?

Further, some of his key appointments work in oil and has a vested interest in what goes down in the major pipelines servicing Europe from Turkey and the Ukraine. In everyday terms it's called a conflict of interest and it's becoming more common in politics by the day. Just because some have gotten away with it in the past doesn't make this occurrence acceptable, better or more benign.

When a decision has to be made about some events in that region, do you trust them to do the right thing by the people or the right thing by their accounts?

I do not have any real faith in the Trump presidency and it should certainly be subject to the same levels of scrutiny that are applied to any other. However, if this is not done in the right way that scrutiny will be flawed and easily rebutted. Trump, imo, has already been subdued to the usual interests and will be directed by them, albeit possibly via different strategies. Those should start to become clear over the coming months and I await with interest!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on March 06, 2017, 09:28:24 am
Do you know who they are? Are you familiar with details of the case they are making. Or is that your off the cuff opinion?

Like many folk, I sat up all night watching it happen and I have read many accounts including the "alternative truth" versions.  The latter are written by fruit loops and, in many cases, fruit loops pursuing evil agendas.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on March 06, 2017, 09:33:22 am
So how come you are prepared to take on board all the stuff about Russia influencing the US elections when, to my knowledge no serious proof or evidence has been tabled? Shouldn't that in your parlance be classified as conspiracy theory?
Investigations by private cybersecurity firms and experts concluded that Russian hackers were responsible.

Guccifer 2.0, the hacker who claimed responsibility, only ever raised his head for these leaks and then popped up much later to declare that the file released by the former MI6 agent was nonsense.  Surprisingly, experts have concluded this was just a fake identity used by the Russians to obscure their involvement.

Funnily enough, the Economist revealed that 2 teams of Russian hackers had attacked the DNC independently: http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21707574-whats-worse-being-attacked-russian-hacker-being-attacked-two-bear-bear (http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21707574-whats-worse-being-attacked-russian-hacker-being-attacked-two-bear-bear). 

One interesting part of that report is:
Quote
Previously unpublished analysis by SecureWorks gives some of the details. The groups took the day off on April 15th—which just happens to be the day Russia honours its military electronic-warfare service.

Wow, why would Guccifer choose that day to take a break?  ;D

Maybe you should spend a bit of time on Google, Cookie.  Perhaps Google Jessikka Aro, the Bundestag hacks, and the recent history of Russia's information war with the West and the Baltic states.  You could find stuff like this: http://www.politico.eu/article/russian-influence-german-election-hacking-cyberattack-news-merkel-putin/ (http://www.politico.eu/article/russian-influence-german-election-hacking-cyberattack-news-merkel-putin/)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on March 06, 2017, 10:00:57 am
While you're googling it's probably a good idea to be aware of where the source is perceived to sit on the spectrum.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/10/21/lets-rank-the-media-from-liberal-to-conservative-based-on-their-audiences/?utm_term=.64de008fe2b0

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on March 06, 2017, 10:02:00 am
Like many folk, I sat up all night watching it happen and I have read many accounts including the "alternative truth" versions.  The latter are written by fruit loops and, in many cases, fruit loops pursuing evil agendas.

I would concede that there are "fruit loops", some with evil intent, who have latched on the this and tried to make mileage out of it, although I don't really read the so-called alternative media. However there are other more credible sources backed up by expert input from such people as building demolition experts, structural engineers etc who have raised significant doubts as to the official version, enough doubts imo for me to reserve my judgement on it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on March 06, 2017, 10:03:56 am
While you're googling it's probably a good idea to be aware of where the source is perceived to sit on the spectrum.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/10/21/lets-rank-the-media-from-liberal-to-conservative-based-on-their-audiences/?utm_term=.64de008fe2b0

Thanks but I pretty much aware of all of this.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on March 06, 2017, 10:10:58 am
And remember that the left-wing has historically been the sworn enemy of Russia while the right-wing has always been pro-Russian.  Or is it the other way around?  ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on March 06, 2017, 10:12:53 am
Thanks but I pretty much aware of all of this.

That's the problem though with searching on the internet.
While mainstream sources have a pretty high profile in terms of their bias you really don't know where the majority of material is coming from.
That then requires a further search to determine bias...and our own bias comes into play because we favour material that supports our opinion.

Obscure links and sources can be found to counter most arguments.
Determining their legitimacy, independence or balance is often a difficult task.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on March 06, 2017, 10:14:59 am
@Mav

I'm not arguing about whether or not these attempts took place, I'm asking for the evidence that there was collusion with the Trump campaign team. As I have already  stated, I would not trust the Russians or Putin and their motives. Cyber attacks are BAU for national security organisations the world over but pale in significance when compared to precipitating colour revolution, regime change, sponsorship of insurgencies leading to hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths etc. Where is the outrage about all of that?

This is not a binary argument - one side or the other. There is evil at work on both sides and I will continue to view the situation from that standpoint.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on March 06, 2017, 10:21:49 am
That's the problem though with searching on the internet.
While mainstream sources have a pretty high profile in terms of their bias you really don't know where the majority of material is coming from.
That then requires a further search to determine bias...and our own bias comes into play because we favour material that supports our opinion.

Obscure links and sources can be found to counter most arguments.
Determining their legitimacy, independence or balance is often a difficult task.

Lods, I don't buy into much of whats out there for the reasons you mention. However, I am very sceptical also about the MSM, who owns it and their respective agendas, especially in the US. I try to find a few sources I can trust and battle to form some kind of view of what's actually going on. The picture is often very confused with real motives and agendas hidden. Good example - what will Trump do now re. foreign policy, especially in the ME and what will be driving it?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on March 06, 2017, 01:20:14 pm
That's the problem though with searching on the internet.
While mainstream sources have a pretty high profile in terms of their bias you really don't know where the majority of material is coming from.
That then requires a further search to determine bias...and our own bias comes into play because we favour material that supports our opinion.

Obscure links and sources can be found to counter most arguments.
Determining their legitimacy, independence or balance is often a difficult task.

The good thing about the internet is that it becomes easier to background check.

The problem that we have with studying history of any kind is the lack of credible first hand sources.

We have more than ever before, it might make things time consuming, but I like to prefer as reading a range of different views, knowing that almost all of them will be written with one perspective in mind, and almost totally ignoring other perspectives.

Why do I know this??

High school taught me, that if you right something, you need to find a stance, back up that stance, and rebutt opposing stances, and that sitting on the fence becomes "painful" to argue.

Therefore, anyone arguing too heavily one way, has bias and its worth reading the opposing view point simply for a difference perspective.

It might sound a bit tin foil hat worthy, but if you read long enough, you will see enough different perspectives of any event to weed out what is generally happening.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on March 06, 2017, 02:00:55 pm
I would concede that there are "fruit loops", some with evil intent, who have latched on the this and tried to make mileage out of it, although I don't really read the so-called alternative media. However there are other more credible sources backed up by expert input from such people as building demolition experts, structural engineers etc who have raised significant doubts as to the official version, enough doubts imo for me to reserve my judgement on it.

You wouldn't know if you were reading it, syndication makes it almost impossible to trace where some articles originate. You should never assume the author, or even the unattributed story, come from the organisation publishing it.

You need to be more selective on your choice of experts. It reminds me of the thousands of "scientists" denying climate change, dentists, surgeons, metallurgists, electronics engineers, geneticists, etc., etc., while the vast bulk of environmental scientists almost 100% agree(Running at about 98.4% for peer reviewed material) it's real.

A few weeks back I was reading a right-wing website that listed Astrologist as one of the career choices for experts wanting to publish/contribute an opinion! Bugger, I'm a dowser(water diviner) so they wouldn't accept my article! :(

There are academic articles you can refer to, peer reviewed by independent scientists and engineers, published in public forums so their reputation is put on the line, that can be used to get an understanding of just about any major event. You should particularly look for on-line institutions associated with the major universities like Standford, MIT, Oxford, Cambridge, etc., etc., you don't have to ask Christopher Monckton about 9/11 to find the truth!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on March 06, 2017, 02:04:22 pm
High school taught me, that if you right something, you need to find a stance, back up that stance, and rebutt opposing stances, and that sitting on the fence becomes "painful" to argue.

If you write something it better be right, phone typing or not! :D

Therefore, anyone arguing too heavily one way, has bias and its worth reading the opposing view point simply for a difference perspective.

Or they know you're argument is rubbish and they just won't let it go!  :P

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on March 06, 2017, 02:14:40 pm
If you write something it better be right, phone typing or not! :D

Or they know you're argument is rubbish and they just won't let it go!  :P


You are correct, thank you grammar police, but there is no need to be childish.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on March 06, 2017, 02:26:21 pm

You are correct, thank you grammar police, but there is no need to be childish.

You're only as old as you feel! :D

Just behaving likes those "Alternative News Sources", I've been Trumpled you know!

From "The World Set Free" H.G Wells (1914)

Quote from: H.G. Wells
Primitive man had been a fiercely combative animal; innumerable generations had passed their lives in tribal warfare, and the weight of tradition, the example of history, the ideals of loyalty and devotion fell in easily enough with the incitements of the international mischief-maker. The political ideas of the common man were picked up haphazard, there was practically nothing in such education as he was given that was ever intended to fit him for citizenship as such (that conception only appeared, indeed, with the development of Modern State ideas), and it was therefore a comparatively easy matter to fill his vacant mind with the sounds and fury of exasperated suspicion and national aggression.

It appears H.G. Wells was quite an authority on Trump and his like, even back then in 1914, I thought you would like that little bit of learning from history! :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on March 06, 2017, 03:06:07 pm
You wouldn't know if you were reading it, syndication makes it almost impossible to trace where some articles originate. You should never assume the author, or even the unattributed story, come from the organisation publishing it.

You need to be more selective on your choice of experts. It reminds me of the thousands of "scientists" denying climate change, dentists, surgeons, metallurgists, electronics engineers, geneticists, etc., etc., while the vast bulk of environmental scientists almost 100% agree(Running at about 98.4% for peer reviewed material) it's real.

A few weeks back I was reading a right-wing website that listed Astrologist as one of the career choices for experts wanting to publish/contribute an opinion! Bugger, I'm a dowser(water diviner) so they wouldn't accept my article! :(

There are academic articles you can refer to, peer reviewed by independent scientists and engineers, published in public forums so their reputation is put on the line, that can be used to get an understanding of just about any major event. You should particularly look for on-line institutions associated with the major universities like Standford, MIT, Oxford, Cambridge, etc., etc., you don't have to ask Christopher Monckton about 9/11 to find the truth!

I thought structural engineers and building demolition experts may just qualify as experts wrgt commenting on the collapse of the WTC buildings? Or do you know better in your capacity as a dowser?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Bear on March 06, 2017, 03:51:35 pm
Lods, I don't buy into much of whats out there for the reasons you mention. However, I am very sceptical also about the MSM, who owns it and their respective agendas, especially in the US. I try to find a few sources I can trust and battle to form some kind of view of what's actually going on. The picture is often very confused with real motives and agendas hidden. Good example - what will Trump do now re. foreign policy, especially in the ME and what will be driving it?

Cookie, Can I recommend a podcast: Left, Right & Center

Very balanced take on US politics, both left and right, avoids the hysterical/lunatic fringe.

It must be good as apparently they got referenced on a recent episode of The Simpsons.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on March 06, 2017, 04:38:43 pm
I thought structural engineers and building demolition experts may just qualify as experts wrgt commenting on the collapse of the WTC buildings? Or do you know better in your capacity as a dowser?

I would have thought you know better.

If they are commenting in a magazine, blog or some other non-peer reviewed source of commentary there is a very good reason for that! Usually money, fame or lunacy! ;)

By the way, Christopher Monckton is a Lord, or so he claims! :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on March 06, 2017, 04:41:16 pm
Cookie, Can I recommend a podcast: Left, Right & Center

Very balanced take on US politics, both left and right, avoids the hysterical/lunatic fringe.

It must be good as apparently they got referenced on a recent episode of The Simpsons.

Thanks Bear, I'll have a look at that.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on March 06, 2017, 04:50:11 pm
I would have thought you know better.

If they are commenting in a magazine, blog or some other non-peer reviewed source of commentary there is a very good reason for that! Usually money, fame or lunacy! ;)

By the way, Christopher Monckton is a Lord, or so he claims! :o

 :))
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on March 06, 2017, 04:59:42 pm
Thanks Bear, I'll have a look at that.

Besides the political Left, Right & Center there are a whole bunch of NPR Podcasts worth listening to;

Here's The Thing (Alec Baldwin, surprisingly good!)
Intelligence Squared US
Invisibilia
Note to Self
Radiolab
Radiolab Presents: More Perfect (US Supreme Court stories.)

http://www.wnyc.org/shows (http://www.wnyc.org/shows)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: thrunthrublu on March 06, 2017, 08:34:17 pm
LOL. The hack was internal, the pedo was the successful target of a phishing scam, who simply failed to implement  a 2 step authentication.
Its funny how his name doesn't get mentioned anymore, its just simply "the russians influenced the outcome of election" in globo
60+ million voters were influenced by what? a discovery that former secretary of state had a private server whereby classified information was being stored and CF "business" was being discussed?
Perhaps the voters may have decided  this and many other things, that she wasn't trustworthy? Perhaps it could be argued that the only colluding and influence applied to the general election, was from the corrupted media and their misrepresented 20 and 30+ point margins in polls? Perhaps it could be argued that they inadvertently successfully convinced dems to stay home and relax as margins were so great they were not needed?
The only crime i can see, is media colluded with the DNC to influence the outcome the election and it failed - spectacularly.
The baying dogs found nothing. If there was something, it would be on the table. The only thing on the table are FISA "hacking' warrants that give rise to more questions, as to why they were issued, and kept using them, more than what they found.
If you believe and think the last 3 sitting presidents were clean and honest and acted only in the best interests of the american people, I have some land to sell you.

LOL BTW  if you find these russian hackers, tell em the scoreboard locations of our games. We can use all the help we can get.


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on March 19, 2017, 04:26:05 pm
How about this dumb *#^~ ...

Trump Voter Shocked To Find That Her Meals On Wheels Could Be Cut (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/one-direction-singer-says-trump-once-kicked-band-out-of-hotel-for-not-meeting-his-daughter_us_58cd672be4b0ec9d29dc8348?qr2pctrl3o1mm42t9&), HuffPost, 18/3/17.

Quote
Linda Preast has used a wheelchair since she had a stroke two years ago and now relies on Meals on Wheels, a service that provides food to millions of people with disabilities and the elderly. The 56-year-old Georgia resident never envisioned when she voted for President Donald Trump that he’d propose slashing funding for the programs.

“Are you surprised?” CBS News correspondent Michelle Miller asked Preast at her home in Jones County Saturday.

“Yeah,” Preast said. “Because he was told ― I was under the influence that he was going to help us.”
She really thought a billionaire who hates losers was going to look after those who are reliant on welfare?  The stupidity of some people is amazing.

I could understand poor people hoping that Trump will make the economy improve and bring back jobs to the US and that they will benefit from that.  I don't think that's going to happen, but at least there's some method to their madness.  But this woman is disabled and she's not going to get a job even if the economy improves. 

More likely she liked Trump because he was going to put the blacks back in their place, deport Latinos, and bully gays like they did in the good ol' days.  If life has screwed you over, it's nice to see other people being screwed over too. But it's backfired badly on her and those of her ilk.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on March 19, 2017, 04:49:59 pm
But it's backfired badly on her and those of her ilk.

I find it hard to believe people are so stupid, but they really are! :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on March 23, 2017, 12:15:25 pm
Good to see Trump models himself on totallitarians from both the left and the right  8)

Zeig Heil, Comrade Trump!

The Manchurian Candidate should be re-titled "The Siberian Candidate"  ;D

If only Trump had persuaded the Pentagon to provide tanks for his Inauguration Parade.  The photos of that would have been very useful now.  He's the West's version of Kim Jong-Un.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on March 23, 2017, 03:02:33 pm
He's the West's version of Kim Jong-Un.

Quite similar hair styles! ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on March 24, 2017, 10:12:37 pm
How stupid people vote, Part II ...

She Voted For Trump. Now, Her Husband Is Being Deported (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-voter-husband-deported_us_58d4b262e4b02a2eaab244cd?), Huff Post.  She thought only bad hombres were at risk  ::)

I wonder how many drug addicts voted for Duterte in the Phillipines ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on March 31, 2017, 01:21:48 pm
Trump's Russia problem won't go away.

General Flynn, his former National Security Advisor, has asked for immunity if he is to testify to Congress or talk to the FBI.  Wow!  Trump has racked up another first.  I don't think someone who had held a senior post as the head of the National Security Council has done that before, and we're only 70 days into Trump's term.  Unfortunately for Trump, Flynn is apparently bitter over being dumped and the criticisms made of him by White House staff.  Flynn may not mind dragging a few of them into the mud. He certainly would know where the bodies are buried - the question is whether he would testify candidly.

How ironic.  This is the same guy who said that Hillary's staffers who sought immunity in the email probe must have committed a crime as innocent people don't seek immunity.  The karma bus has hit him well and truly and is backing up over him for good measure.  This is the same guy who led chants of "Lock her up!" at the Republican Convention.

Meanwhile, the House Intelligence Committee is becoming a circus.  The Chairman, Devin Nunes, seems to have decided to use his position to kill its investigation.  At the last minute, he cancelled public hearings at which Sally Yates and the former CIA director were to testify.  The previous public hearing involved FBI Director Comey and this ended up badly for Trump.  The Republicans had tried to highlight leaking but instead the Dems extracted the stunning information that the FBI has been investigating Trump's team since last July.

Nunes has also allowed himself to be a stooge for the White House.  He marched down to see Trump in the Oval Office and then called a press conference and dropped a bombshell that he'd seen proof that Trump's team had been caught up in surveillance of foreigners.  He did this without taking that info to his own committee.  This appeared to be an attempt to justify Trump's tweet about Trump Tower phones being tapped.  But now Nunes is taking heavy fire.  It has now come out that Nunes actually went to the White House where he was shown documents by White House officials before then returning to the White House to tell Trump about this info he'd 'discovered'. What a sham! Nunes was on Trump's campaign team, surprise, surprise.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on March 31, 2017, 01:57:56 pm
Mav, the whole Whitehouse is looking like a Marx Brothers or Three Stooges movie!

(http://i.imgur.com/Mgi0AwC.gif)

(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/55811072e4b07ca0ea585c6d/t/589a1f128419c23981b02bfa/1486495518884/The+Marx+Brothers?format=1000w)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on March 31, 2017, 08:09:43 pm
 :))

I reckon Curly would have made a decent POTUS, particularly with Mo as Secretary of State and Larry as press secretary  ;)

They could be worse than the clowns in the roles now.  :(
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on April 07, 2017, 10:24:16 am
Wonder what all the Trump fanboys think now that the inevitable international crises are looming.  Whether he's good or bad for the US domestically is largely irrelevant for us. But international crises aren't. 

Are we happy that Trump's in charge now that Syria and North Korea look as if military interventions may be possible?

At least General McMaster has now consolidated his control of the situation room and Bannon has been punted.  McMaster seems to be impressive.  But Trump's sloth in filling important positions makes you wonder whether the US is well-placed to deal with the inevitable crises that inevitably confront new Presidents. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on April 07, 2017, 11:36:54 am
As long as the Generals know what they're doing ;)

If Donald looks like he's going to interfere give him something else to do that makes him happy.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ed/Donald%27s_Golf_Game.jpg)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on April 07, 2017, 12:41:24 pm
Sad for Trump that he won't be able to persuade the Chinese Premier to play a round of golf with him at Maralago in the official visit that's happening now.  Le Kiqiang has banned party and government officials playing golf as an anti-corruption measure  :o

There's now been a missile strike on a Syrian airbase and Secretary Tillerson has condemned the Russians for failing to prevent further chemical weapons use by Assad.  How will Putin react?  If there really was any coordination between the Russians and the Trump campaign, maybe Wikileaks will release documentary evidence of it now.

The problem now is whether the Syrian situation will escalate and whether Trump is smart enough to prevent it doing so.   
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on April 07, 2017, 12:52:22 pm
Sad for Trump that he won't be able to persuade the Chinese Premier to play a round of golf with him at Maralago in the official visit that's happening now.  Le Kiqiang has banned party and government officials playing golf as an anti-corruption measure  :o

There's now been a missile strike on a Syrian airbase and Secretary Tillerson has condemned the Russians for failing to prevent further chemical weapons use by Assad.  How will Putin react?  If there really was any coordination between the Russians and the Trump campaign, maybe Wikileaks will release documentary evidence of it now.

The problem now is whether the Syrian situation will escalate and whether Trump is smart enough to prevent it doing so.  

Here lies the problem.

US backed rebels are reportedly the ones who dropped the chem weapons.

Not Assad.

This is a propaganda war as much as anything as no one really knows.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on April 07, 2017, 01:00:17 pm
What reports? Only the Russian-backed Assad regime has air power in Syria.  How then could the rebels have "dropped" chemical weapons? 

Assad's regime claimed instead that they targetted chemical weapons stores or factories in rebel territory and that attack incidentally released chemicals.  That's pretty lame. 

PS: I'm asking about reports rather than conspiracy theories based on the assumption that Assad wouldn't be stupid enough to do this, so it must have been a false flag operation.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on April 07, 2017, 02:34:09 pm
So much for Trump being in bed with Putin.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on April 07, 2017, 03:20:32 pm
What reports? Only the Russian-backed Assad regime has air power in Syria.  How then could the rebels have "dropped" chemical weapons? 

Assad's regime claimed instead that they targetted chemical weapons stores or factories in rebel territory and that attack incidentally released chemicals.  That's pretty lame. 

PS: I'm asking about reports rather than conspiracy theories based on the assumption that Assad wouldn't be stupid enough to do this, so it must have been a false flag operation.

Better question, how do we know they were dropped by Syrians?

Very quick reaction by the US.

Either way, I think its deplorable.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on April 07, 2017, 04:17:08 pm
So much for Trump being in bed with Putin.
Interesting turn of phrase.  When a cheating spouse is caught in flagrante delicto, said cheating spouse then has to be on best behaviour, at least in the short term.  Obviously, the other spouse will be watching like a hawk for a while.  If Trump had been able to keep his bedtime frolics with Putin secret, how long would the affair have lasted and what effect would it have had on US policy?  Strange how an FBI investigation stopped the bromance in its tracks  :-X
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on April 07, 2017, 10:35:41 pm
Either way, I think its deplorable.

The retaliatory strike or the initial chemical attack?

The swiftness of the response I think is very deliberate and about the first thing Trump has done that I agree with.
The intelligence they have at hand obviously provides a far clearer picture than what we can speculate on, but it seems all Western governments seem to be in agreement that the attack was by Assad's government.

Interestingly Russia has shown a willingness to use gas themselves on their own people, notably with the Theater crisis. Now that may well have been the right response to that particular situation, but it also shows that Putin might consider the use of chemical agents as valid if it hastens a resolution.

I don't like Trump, I don't think most do... But I did like that someone stood up and said 'screw You' to Assad and to Putin, because I think that they feel the West is quite weak at the moment and will let them get away with anything.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on April 07, 2017, 11:34:50 pm
The use of chemical weapons is deplorable.

A swift strike to flex muscles is not great either as the USA is partly responsible for the situation in this country.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on April 08, 2017, 01:52:00 am
That is an interesting chestnut that...
It is very easy to really say that the US is partly responsible for any issues in the middle east, but the reality is that the problem in Syria is mainly Assad's doing. The guy is a criminal, time and again his actions against citizens contravene International Law.

Whilst the US involved in the country (as you would suspect), I don't see that Syria is 'caused' by the US, partially or otherwise. They have been essentially a dictatorship for 40 years, the Arab Spring scared the crap out of Assad and he had to ensure he kept power and wasn't overthrown in the way others were, he decided suppression through force was the right option, this turned the country to chaos.

Now America chose sides and it was NEVER likely to be Assad's, but they didn't start this civil war, they didn't create the tension that is there between Sunni and Shia Muslims either.

America screws up a lot, they may have create a massive power vacuum in Iraq (not commenting on whether they should or should not have in this particular argument) which may then have allowed for the growth of the likes of ISIL within that country, but I don't see how they created the Syria problem.

I think flexing muscles is actually what needs to happen on occasion, there are some who only respond to strength.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on April 08, 2017, 08:12:56 am
The only thing I find interesting is that everyone is happy to enforce their ideas of democracy on other nations and then state that our brand of war pain and suffering is better than the home grown version.

Meanwhile the occupation of northern Cyprus by Turkish insurgents continues from 1974 to today.

No one seems to worry overly about that one though.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on April 08, 2017, 08:14:53 am
The use of chemical weapons is deplorable.

A swift strike to flex muscles is not great either as the USA is partly responsible for the situation in this country.

No more or less deplorable than the use of conventional weapons against civilians or starving them to death.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on April 08, 2017, 09:23:31 am
... or deliberately targetting hospitals. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on April 08, 2017, 09:58:21 am
Agreed.

Ask yourself this question.  Why would Assad choose now to attack his own people like this when he's been regaining control.   What's the strategic advantage of doing so? 

The answer is none.  This episode reeks of false flag to me.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on April 08, 2017, 10:09:19 am
Watch this video.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?sns=fb&v=KU5taO5vRDo

I'll defer to this man.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Bear on April 08, 2017, 10:36:21 am
Agreed.

Ask yourself this question.  Why would Assad choose now to attack his own people like this when he's been regaining control.   What's the strategic advantage of doing so? 

The answer is none.  This episode reeks of false flag to me.

"Regaining control"... isn't that the problem?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on April 08, 2017, 10:39:48 am
Agreed.

Ask yourself this question.  Why would Assad choose now to attack his own people like this when he's been regaining control.   What's the strategic advantage of doing so? 

The answer is none.  This episode reeks of false flag to me.

I hate the term, but it's ethnic cleansing.

Bashar al-Assad remains in power through the support of his Alawite minority.  Anyone else is fair game.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on April 08, 2017, 11:38:04 am
The only thing I find interesting is that everyone is happy to enforce their ideas of democracy on other nations and then state that our brand of war pain and suffering is better than the home grown version.

Meanwhile the occupation of northern Cyprus by Turkish insurgents continues from 1974 to today.

No one seems to worry overly about that one though.

We're the good guys though.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading
Post by: Mav on April 08, 2017, 11:55:31 am
Agreed.

Ask yourself this question.  Why would Assad choose now to attack his own people like this when he's been regaining control.   What's the strategic advantage of doing so? 

The answer is none.  This episode reeks of false flag to me.
Why wouldn't he?  He did it in 2013, didn't he?  And he's a brutal dictator.  Have a look at the fable concerning the scorpion and the frog.  It's his nature. 

The problem is that Trump has never accepted that his words matter.  He feels he's free to say one thing one day and then another the next.  He sees this uncertainty as a positive in international relations, the "hothead" principle applied to global politics. 

In this case, might Assad have believed that Trump's recent and not so recent comments meant he had room to move?  Trump went ballistic on Twitter in 2013 warning Obama that reacting militarily to a bigger chemical weapons attack would be a horrible mistake.  He declared that it would have no benefit for the US.  All through the election campaign, he ran on an America First policy, saying the US shouldn't be involved unless its own interests are affected.  He said that he would go after ISIS as his priority and he was open to joining with Russia and Assad in Syria to defeat ISIS.  Only last week, Secretary of State Tillerson declared that Trump has reversed Obama's demand that there should be regime change and that he believed that the long-term status of Assad would be determined by the Syrian people. 

Assad has been using chemical weapons regularly as a tactical military weapon and a weapon of terror.  Why would he have discontinued their use when the wind from the US seemed to be blowing favourably?

He has been concentrating on suppressing opposition forces rather than ISIS.  Have a look at this article from the NY Times countering the argument that Assad wouldn't be this crazy: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/06/world/middleeast/syria-bashar-al-assad-russia-sarin-attack.html?_r=0 (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/06/world/middleeast/syria-bashar-al-assad-russia-sarin-attack.html?_r=0).  

Fair enough, query the evidence.  But don't expect us to accept that there is no such thing as evidence anymore - that as long as you can think up a conspiracy theory, then that theory can be used as contrary evidence that either ensures a nil-all draw or as proof in and of itself. 

Ask yourself this - if Assad's forces really were going to go after a chemical weapons depot, wouldn't he want to ensure that the international community saw that the opposition was as evil as he is?  If bombing such a storage facility would likely lead to the escape of chemicals that would kill civilians, don't you think that Assad would want to forewarn the international community of this possibility to ensure that his regime wasn't unfairly blamed for any deaths?  Instead, the first anyone heard of this possibility was when Assad raised it after the event in his defence.

Then we have an intriguing allegation from the Americans.  After the chemical weapons event, a Russian drone overflew the site of the bombing and later a single bomber overflew the area and dropped conventional bombs.  Why would this occur?  The US military believes it was a cover-up.  As the hospital at which victims were to be treated or autopsied was bombed in this secondary attack, one possibility is that this was an attempt to destroy evidence of the use of chemical weapons.  Autopsies have subsequently confirmed they killed civilians.

And remember that the Russians are on Assad's side.  They provide support for Assad's Air Force.  That means that they no doubt performed pre-bombing aerial reconnaissance by satellite, drones, or their own aircraft.  Remember, this was a very sensitive operation - bombing an alleged chemical weapons storage facility in a residential area.  To do it right, close surveillance had to precede the raid to ensure that weapons were not moved out of the storage facility.  Any that were would need to be tracked and targeted separately.  The Syrians would of course lean on the Russians who were on the airbase.  You'd think the Russians would have been ecstatic to show the world the reconnaissance material that proved the Americans made an unprovoked attack on a sovereign country.  But no!  Just bald assertions.  They never bothered to present such evidence before the UN and haven't published any since.  Why are they so shy?  I'm sure there's a conspiracy theory to explain this ...

Experts also think that chemical weapons would be destroyed by conventional bombs that were supposed to annihilate a storage facility/factory.  In addition, they doubt that sarin gas would be stored in its active form and it would need to be mixed before use, something that wouldn't happen randomly during an explosion.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on April 08, 2017, 03:30:32 pm
Agreed.

Ask yourself this question.  Why would Assad choose now to attack his own people like this when he's been regaining control.   What's the strategic advantage of doing so? 

The answer is none.  This episode reeks of false flag to me.

I was going to respond to this, but it has already been covered extremely well and there isn't a lot to add.

Needless to say though, he hasn't chosen 'now' to attack his own people, he has been doing it for years, with Sarin, with Chlorine...
The guy is a monster who truly believes killing innocents in the pursuit of enemies is a valid way to keep control.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on April 08, 2017, 03:46:49 pm
The guy is a monster who truly believes killing innocents in the pursuit of enemies is a valid way to keep control.

How many innocents have "we" killed trying to get the baddies in the middle east?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on April 08, 2017, 04:19:47 pm
How many innocents have "we" killed trying to get the baddies in the middle east?

A lot and it isn't great, I don't think anyone thinks it is. But it is undeniable that the West make more effort to direct their strikes in a way to try and minimize the impact on civilians, but it doesn't always work and sometimes there have been terrible consequences. Nobody is saying that the west is without fault, but it can't be denied by anyone that there has been an attempt by the world to define acceptable use of force, as opposed to War Crimes.

Assad makes no distinction at all. I find it hard to believe that anyone would believe for a moment that if all evidence was on the table and he was before the International Courts in the Hague that he would be found guilty of War Crimes.

I don't see though why the discussion is "We do bad crap too"...

Shouldn't the discussion be

Who was responsible for the chemical attack in Syria?
What actions are to be taken against those responsible?

If the answer to A is Syria (or it's allies), then it is hard to argue against the US response isn't it?

It is a terrible world where armed conflict is the answer to any situation, but I think it would be niave of anyone to think that it is never required.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on April 08, 2017, 04:24:35 pm
MIO, what you say goes completely against the writings and speeches etc. of people like Chomsky.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 08, 2017, 04:39:18 pm
How many innocents have "we" killed trying to get the baddies in the middle east?
Who really kills children who are on the military base, the people dropping the bombs or the people who moved them in to live there?

Do you think it's an accident they are there?

You want to watch the movie "Eye in the Sky" for quite a reasonable perspective of how this sort of conflict works.

The choice is really some casualties there, of a Shopping Mall full of innocent people anywhere else! That is the reality of the situation, something we should all think about next time we wander down the shops with our kids or grand kids for an ice-cream or a coffee!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on April 08, 2017, 04:43:30 pm
MIO, what you say goes completely against the writings and speeches etc. of people like Chomsky.

I am okay with that
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on April 08, 2017, 05:41:34 pm
Who really kills children who are on the military base, the people dropping the bombs or the people who moved them in to live there?

The one who pulls the trigger.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on April 08, 2017, 05:57:25 pm
A lot and it isn't great, I don't think anyone thinks it is. But it is undeniable that the West make more effort to direct their strikes in a way to try and minimize the impact on civilians, but it doesn't always work and sometimes there have been terrible consequences. Nobody is saying that the west is without fault, but it can't be denied by anyone that there has been an attempt by the world to define acceptable use of force, as opposed to War Crimes.

Assad makes no distinction at all. I find it hard to believe that anyone would believe for a moment that if all evidence was on the table and he was before the International Courts in the Hague that he would be found guilty of War Crimes.

I don't see though why the discussion is "We do bad crap too"...

Shouldn't the discussion be

Who was responsible for the chemical attack in Syria?
What actions are to be taken against those responsible?

If the answer to A is Syria (or it's allies), then it is hard to argue against the US response isn't it?

It is a terrible world where armed conflict is the answer to any situation, but I think it would be niave of anyone to think that it is never required.

All in all it says little that is impressive about we humans when it comes to handling conflict/difficulties between each other. Perceived bad person does sh1tty thing, so perceived good people do sh1tty thing, but just not as sh1tty. Bad person retaliates, good people retaliate... nicely. And so goes the cycle of stupidity...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 08, 2017, 07:51:20 pm
The one who pulls the trigger.

There is no trigger.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on April 09, 2017, 12:54:32 am
All in all it says little that is impressive about we humans when it comes to handling conflict/difficulties between each other. Perceived bad person does sh1tty thing, so perceived good people do sh1tty thing, but just not as sh1tty. Bad person retaliates, good people retaliate... nicely. And so goes the cycle of stupidity...

No one is saying war is good, in fact it is a horrible horrible option.
It doesn't mean you can continually turn blind eyes, want a clearer example?
Should Churchill and the French ignored the invasion of Poland?

What about the taking of Sudetenland a year earlier?
Or the Anschluss a further 6 month earlier?

What about the atrocities against local opposition, the handicapped and Jewish population prior to that?

Unfortunately it is true that ruthless individuals can take power, unfortunately it is true that a number of these consider inaction a weakness and believe it gives them the option to act with impunity.

War is evil, killing humans for the sake of a group or individuals need for power is an evil within the human race, but it doesn't then mean that any military action is the wrong action.

Declaring war on Germany in 1939 was the correct decision, probably taking military action years earlier would have prevented a mass catastrophe the likes of which the world has rarely seen, not declaring war on Germany after taking Poland would almost certainly seen further consolidation by the Germans as they made preparations to push back west.

War is horrible, states killing people is disgusting, but it is an over simplification if people think every bomb dropped is a wrong decision
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 12, 2017, 12:46:08 pm
As much as I despise Trump and his clown mate Spicer, the media do themselves no favors when they stoop to the same level of cherry-picking facts and verballing Spicer.

I appreciate Spicer should have been more succinct in his chemical warfare comments, but technically he is correct if not in a vague way. Hitler never dropped chemical weapons bombs on his own towns and people, despite the Nazi regime using chemicals in the execution of the Jews in the gas chambers. The nutters who voted for and support Trump will see right through that weakly veiled insinuation and strengthen their resolve!

Then for the media to pick on him for his mispronunciation of Assad, like the US media are the world authority on pronunciation! That deserves an eye roll! ::)

The media don't get it, it's not just the people who supported Trump that are dumb puppets, the media fall into Trump's traps over and over again like baldfaced amateurs. I think that is because most of the journalists and been replaced by syndicated baldfaced amateur bloggers. News Ltd and Rupert Murdoch have a lot to answer for! ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on April 12, 2017, 02:11:37 pm
Don't disagree with any of that.
Spicer is the worst Press Secretary probably in history, but with regards to the Hitler gaffe.. C'mon, seriously did anyone really not get what he was saying? He wasn't denying the Holocaust as many are stating (including those who should know better), he was saying that no one in World War II dropped Chemical weapons in Air Raids on civilians.
The press should leave that alone, they are there to report real news, not sensationalize a gaffe.

With regards to the pronunciation, that is just laughable, again.. why is it even reported?
If it is reported... well considering America pronounces quite a few words differently to the rest of the world, why does it matter if Assad is one?

I understand the press hates the White House and in particular Spicer and they should as well. The actions taken to try and intimidate the press have been disgusting, but if they want to continue to promote themselves as impartial then they need to keep out of any pettiness.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on April 12, 2017, 02:50:46 pm
I could go as far to say no one has proven that it was the doing of the Assad government.....the US are masters of the false flag after all.....

Feel fee to how me some proof but ask one question, who stands to gain most by these most heinous actions....? (Answer = not Assad)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on April 12, 2017, 03:22:35 pm
I could go as far to say no one has proven that it was the doing of the Assad government.....the US are masters of the false flag after all.....

Feel fee to how me some proof but ask one question, who stands to gain most by these most heinous actions....? (Answer = not Assad)

Ive been trying to point that one out for a while.

In the mean time, look at the press over in the USA arguing semantics about whether or not Hitler dropped chemical weapons on his own people.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on April 12, 2017, 03:33:06 pm
Spicer's problem is that he has arguably the most important communication job in the world.
There should be no grey area.
No room for misinterpretation.
No need for clarification or apology.

He seems to fail this task on a regular basis.

I don't see a lot of difference between dropping chemicals on a village from the air or dropping them through a hole in the roof....except that in the enclosed setting you have much less chance of survival.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 12, 2017, 05:13:46 pm
Spicer's problem is that he has arguably the most important communication job in the world.
There should be no grey area.
No room for misinterpretation.
No need for clarification or apology.

He seems to fail this task on a regular basis.

I don't see a lot of difference between dropping chemicals on a village from the air or dropping them through a hole in the roof....except that in the enclosed setting you have much less chance of survival.

He communicated it badly and he deserves a whack, and we assume he did so accidentally, but with Trump I am not so sure.

By the same token, and as much as I hate Spicer, the media cannot twist the words of their targets to suit their own agenda. If they do that they may as well just give him control, it's neither morally or legally correct for the media to do so, and in my opinion they have an obligation to report without coloring the facts. Not the Alternate Facts either!

As Thry points out, lets consider what happening in the world right now and compare that to what the media is focused on. Is Spicer really the front page story, it seems to me he's just a sideshow?

Thry. Flyboy.
As for the conspiracy theories, I doubt so many countries would fall into line so quickly without the facts. The reaction has been far too swift for this to be accidental, conspiracy theorists will point to this quick response as evidence that they knew the attack was coming. But in regions like Syria, Iran and Iraq the PSS systems that are in place now pretty much allow them to run events backwards in high definition for time for periods of up to 72hrs, some allude that capability has now being extended to weeks with whole cities being covered to 10cm resolution. Cutting edge two decades ago was 20 Megapixel cameras, I know civilian applications that now use 150 Megapixel cameras delivering 30cm resolution over an area the size of Boston or Melbourne from an altitude of 15000m. High end science projects are now building 1.8 Gigapixel cameras that capture 1000 frames per second. The military operate at 25000m to 30000m and can afford to spend and have been spending way more than any science project.

The decisions on what information to expose and what to conceal are purely political, at least two or three of the allies would know exactly what is happening and who is responsible.

I read an interview with a retired secret service chief that put it quite nicely. He basically said,

"The public think the scenarios shown in Hollywood movies are future of surveillance technology, we were way beyond that many years ago!
If you can imagine it we've already done it, and now it is probably obsolete!"
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on April 12, 2017, 07:51:42 pm
^^lp I don't doubt that they could know if there was something to know,  but there are two issues that I see.

1.  Motive.  Someone mentioned ethnic cleansing, and I'll admit that's fine but this is a small fry way to try that on.  surely Assad would be better equipped to handle this if that's what drove him.

2.  If it was him, I'm confident everyone would have been shown how and when not to mention who actually performed this attack.
After all, why keep it quiet? If there is footage of it, it would suit the allied forces for it to be in the public domain wouldn't it??
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 12, 2017, 08:20:59 pm
^^lp I don't doubt that they could know if there was something to know,  but there are two issues that I see.

1.  Motive.  Someone mentioned ethnic cleansing, and I'll admit that's fine but this is a small fry way to try that on.  surely Assad would be better equipped to handle this if that's what drove him.

2.  If it was him, I'm confident everyone would have been shown how and when not to mention who actually performed this attack.
After all, why keep it quiet? If there is footage of it, it would suit the allied forces for it to be in the public domain wouldn't it??

You know that is not how surveillance works, if they make it public they risk exposing their methods and operatives. There is a very good reason it's called the "Secret Service!"

As for motive, as exposed in the Mossack Fonseca scandal I'm sure extending the Al-Assad's families trillion dollar dynasty in Syria is more than enough motive! I'm not sure we need some other motive like racism to be involved when the family has a history of corrupt wealth at their countries expense.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on April 12, 2017, 09:15:00 pm
^^

That falls over pretty fast as this act isn't a means to an end to extend influence nor
They could also state more fact without giving away trade secrets.

Im pretty sure they can tell me his bank account details, address and perhaps his pin number for his account without telling me how they obtain this information. Ditto the chemical attack.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on April 13, 2017, 04:58:47 am
Spicer's problem is that he has arguably the most important communication job in the world.
There should be no grey area.
No room for misinterpretation.
No need for clarification or apology.

He seems to fail this task on a regular basis.

I don't see a lot of difference between dropping chemicals on a village from the air or dropping them through a hole in the roof....except that in the enclosed setting you have much less chance of survival.

Both are obviously extremely heinous and I think the acts of genocide were considerably worse than what has occurred to date in Syria.

With Spicer to me it seems obvious he isn't saying that the Syrians are worse than the Nazis, he is attempting to point out how heinous Assad is and using a specific example, which was a very stupid example to use.

The speech writers (whether it is a team or himself) have screwed that up, but I don't consider it the type of error that would force someone out of office. The previous attacks on the media on the other hand...

@fly and any others
With regards to the evidence, what evidence is expected?
Are you suggesting that Chemical attack never happened? If that is the case, why is it that no independent observers, not Syria or Russia themselves is disputing that civilians were killed by gas?

And if the US are covering up the perpetrators, then that makes them complicit is a serious crime against humanity, which would see every one of them removed from Office and certainly those involved would face charges.

Considering it is the Syrians and Russians dropping bombs on the civilian population, considering the Syrians and the Russians have both used chemicals on civilians and that Syria has previously admitted to having a stockpile of chemical weapons (which they claim they destroyed)...
What about even the circumstantial evidence points to this being an American cover up over a Syrian action (with or without the approval/knowledge of Russia)?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 13, 2017, 08:06:07 am
MIO, who are the whackos in Sydney that seem to be at the world center for the propagation of this conspiracy rubbish?

FFS, they are claiming Assad was set-up, like he needs another black mark after all he has already done to his country in the name of cash. Really! :o

Alas the whackos are really whackos. This isn't 1918, the world including Syria is fully wired. Do the whackos think the current members of the media are not interested in becoming the next Watergate hero? Doesn't Trump and Spicer have any journalistic enemies? The whackos should rationalise those ideas in light of the recent events and the media's focus on pronunciation as a world evil. Pathetic really!

Oh no, they are all in it together, build those bunkers boys they are a coming!

These are extraordinary claims in an era when somebody can become a Youtube Megastar just from picking their nose on a freeway!

You'd think the world media should be more worried about China preparing to opportunistically annex North Korea than how to say Assad!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on April 13, 2017, 08:30:21 am
https://www.rt.com/usa/384520-postol-report-sarin-syria/ (https://www.rt.com/usa/384520-postol-report-sarin-syria/)

The Western nations have blindly followed the US's imperialistic agenda since the end of WW2 - they aren't going to change their stance now....

It's not conspiracy to suggest that one nation should not bomb another sovereign nation without hard, cold, irrefutable facts....

That's what the Yanks do day in, day out, killing countless innocents and no one, other than the Ruskies, ever calls them on it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on April 13, 2017, 09:27:25 am
US policy, driven by the neocons, is to establish complete global hegemony. Its actions mainly support that goal. Join the dots.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 13, 2017, 09:41:09 am
https://www.rt.com/usa/384520-postol-report-sarin-syria/ (https://www.rt.com/usa/384520-postol-report-sarin-syria/)

The Western nations have blindly followed the US's imperialistic agenda since the end of WW2 - they aren't going to change their stance now....

It's not conspiracy to suggest that one nation should not bomb another sovereign nation without hard, cold, irrefutable facts....

That's what the Yanks do day in, day out, killing countless innocents and no one, other than the Ruskies, ever calls them on it.

So MIO's assertion is correct, you really do think it didn't happen! :o

Rrrrriiiight!  :-\

The US have all that high tech weaponry, if they don't care about UN conventions and behavior, why bother spending all that freaking money when they could just use their,

(http://www.hackrva.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/lasers.jpg)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on April 13, 2017, 10:23:17 am
I never said nothing happened, I'm just far from convinced the US line is anywhere near the truth.

Try this if you want another take....

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/46845.htm (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/46845.htm)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on April 13, 2017, 10:40:39 am
Fly I hardly now how to respond.
The yanks are dropping bombs day in and day out on sovereign states, without hard irrefutable facts ???

Do you mind if I ask which states you are explicitly meaning?

I wrote a huge essay just then (and subsequently deleted, this is just the very short version  :o ) on why Russia is hardly the beacon of truth and how Europe has in fact a deep mistrust of Russia.

I don't see it as Europe and other allies turning a blind eye, in fact I think they are extremely grateful that America flexes it's muscle in these situations as they see it as having the potential to have direct ramifications within Europe.

Why Russia is stating it will go to war in this situation, is it really as it says.. because America is infringing on the sovereignty of a foreign state and it believes in the divine rights of the state?
Um, Crimea is  :o
Um Eastern Ukraine  :o
If we want to go back further, Poland  :o,  East Germany  :o, Czechoslavakia  :o, Bulgaria  :o, Romania  :o
& Hungary  :o

How did the incursions in Ukraine start?
What do you honestly believe would be the impact if Ukraine applied for an successfully joined NATO?

Why has Russia stated it will veto any call to force Assad to allow in an internationally independent investigative team?

Why is it that a country that is so  scrutinized by the free press the world over, you actually trust less than a country where


Russia as a country lies, they consider it a weakness to be 'held to the truth'. Throughout the entire period from Stalin (and to be honest even Lenin) forward truth was a story you told the public to achieve a goal.

Why then is there version of events (which they will not help put pressure on Syria to allow independents to corroborate) the most likely truth?

It isn't.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on April 13, 2017, 10:42:47 am
Btw finding a conspiracy theorist is not hard, for any conflict. It doesn't mean that because they have an idea how it happened that their version is correct, a very large (VERY VERY VERY large) percentage of these conspiracies are bunkum

Oh and where I say that Russia lies, I understand that all countries do, in fact in the interest of national security that must on occasion keep things out of the public and I don't have any issue.

What I mean by Russia lies, I mean they don't have a moral compass preventing them from just making up fabrications for what they consider best suits the situation and to keep information from people. It was the case all the way through communism and it still is.

Remember this is still a country where the freedom to spontaneously gather and protest is illegal. To protest something, you must get official approval.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on April 13, 2017, 10:50:19 am
Btw finding a conspiracy theorist is not hard, for any conflict. It doesn't mean that because they have an idea how it happened that their version is correct, a very large (VERY VERY VERY large) percentage of these conspiracies are bunkum

I'm not even talking conspiracy - i'm simply saying the US 'story' doesn't add up - and the known facts support this view....

I suppose you believe the official 9/11 story too?!  :o :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on April 13, 2017, 10:56:32 am
I suppose you believe the official 9/11 story too?!  :o :o

I mean this with all due respect.

I certainly don't believe that the US had anything to do with attacking themselves and I certainly do think it was run by Al Qaeda.

I was going to specifically point out 9/11 conspiracy theorists and those denying landing on the moon as two prime events where you give someone  a pen (or a computer) and an audience and they can come up with something they believe is believable.

I can't even begin to go deeper into a retort if you honestly believe the US Government was complicit in 9/11

...

Also what known facts?
I think that is an amazing stretch to suggest that and one where most western governments without specific agenda for Syria disagree (Russia, Turkey, US, Syria & Iran are all examples of countries that have agendas).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on April 13, 2017, 11:02:58 am
And to add to the irony of this..

If we lived in Russia (or China) right now, the same people that are claiming the US is making up the attack in Syria, would be potentially flagged as possible dissidents to keep an eye on for having the same anti-establishment thoughts (obviously a simple post on a forum is unlikely to attract anything, but if this same agenda was pushed continually, then absolutely).

Because in the west you are free to question everything without accountability or the the same level of threat of suppression (obviously here you can still be sued etc) then these discussions easily grow legs.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on April 13, 2017, 12:19:19 pm
To say that 'Russia' can't be trusted is something of a misnomer. The people of Russia, or USA, or here, or Madagascar for that matter are all pretty similar in many respects - most of us want peace, food, shelter, work, education and good health care.

When we talk of 'trust' in regard to certain nations we're in fact talking about their represented leaders and the bottom line is that both Putin and Trump are pathological liars. Too many politicians toe the party line and will manipulate 'facts' to suit their agenda/ideology or the corporation who is sponsoring them!!! We are all, and have been for a few decades now, when confronted with an election, voting for the lesser of two evils. Sad but true. There are some nations that do have respectable leadership that is committed to the wellbeing of its citizens and environmental realities. We hope that this kind of courageous/ethical leadership will continue to grow.

(Then you have the corporate/money influence... but that's another story that can only foster cynicism regarding leadership).

As for 'conspiracy theories', yes, some are laughable, some weird but when you have enough wild conclusion the truth can be hidden in some situations by assertions of 'another silly conspiracy theory.' There is a level of public conditioning to automatically interpret the words 'conspiracy theory' as BS.

Did the US land on the moon? Pretty sure they did, be pretty hard to keep that a secret! Though I do remember the highly intelligent Prof Magnus Clarke saying he believed it was rubbish and presented loads of scientific evidence to support his assertion that the moon landing was staged. Personally, I couldn't give a cr@p.

Though I do believe that anyone who thinks 9/11 is exactly what the US govt reports say is playing with themselves. More than three thousand architects have formed an organisation demanding an honest investigation into how those buildings 'really' collapsed... especially the third one. I'm pretty sure there is something very fishy about it all but I don't know what it is and don't want to jump to unsubstantiated conclusions until an honest and proper investigation is conducted.

There are only 3 things I personally don't trust: corporations, religion and my ex wife.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on April 13, 2017, 12:28:09 pm
I am specifically avoiding 9/11 conspiracies, other than to say what I said earlier.

I actually meant the Russia as a political entity can't be trusted, as opposed to individual Russians.
Though there is certainly a general difference in the outlooks of say someone from Russia than someone from Sydney and this is generally caused through decades of the environment they have lived in I would (very strongly) suggest rather than any individual genetic trait.

Russia as a political organisation is considered considerably less trustworthy by the west than say the US, that is absolutely the case.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on April 13, 2017, 12:35:27 pm
I am specifically avoiding 9/11 conspiracies, other than to say what I said earlier.

I actually meant the Russia as a political entity can't be trusted, as opposed to individual Russians.
Though there is certainly a general difference in the outlooks of say someone from Russia than someone from Sydney and this is generally caused through decades of the environment they have lived in I would (very strongly) suggest rather than any individual genetic trait.

Russia as a political organisation is considered considerably less trustworthy by the west than say the US, that is absolutely the case.

Well they would say that wouldn't they since pretty much all western nations of any consequence are vassals of the US.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 13, 2017, 12:54:23 pm
Well they would say that wouldn't they since pretty much all western nations of any consequence are vassals of the US.

Is that as opposed to being democratic, open and politically accountable?

Personally, I don't think countries like the UK, France, Germany or India would appreciate your insinuations. You have basically labeled them puppets, Australia doesn't even fit in that category and we are more closely aligned than most! :o

Trump can ignore or dispute the media and public opinions but he cannot shut down free speech, unlike Putin, Kim Jong-un or Li Keqiang! ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on April 13, 2017, 01:03:54 pm
Is that as opposed to being democratic, open and politically accountable?

Personally, I don't think countries like the UK, France, Germany or India would appreciate your insinuations. You have basically labeled them puppets, Australia doesn't even fit in that category and we are more closely aligned than most! :o

Trump can ignore or dispute the media and public opinions but he cannot shut down free speech, unlike Putin, Kim Jong-un or Li Keqiang! ;)

I thought I made a pretty straightforward statement - no insinuation about it?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 13, 2017, 01:09:55 pm
I thought I made a pretty straightforward statement - no insinuation about it?

The irony of your statement is all their hiding in your avatar!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on April 13, 2017, 01:23:59 pm
I am specifically avoiding 9/11 conspiracies, other than to say what I said earlier.

I actually meant the Russia as a political entity can't be trusted, as opposed to individual Russians.
Though there is certainly a general difference in the outlooks of say someone from Russia than someone from Sydney and this is generally caused through decades of the environment they have lived in I would (very strongly) suggest rather than any individual genetic trait.

Russia as a political organisation is considered considerably less trustworthy by the west than say the US, that is absolutely the case.

What you are not saying, but implying, is that the US Government and its minions, are more trustworthy than the Russians - again, an entirely baseless proposition...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 13, 2017, 01:30:33 pm
What you are not saying, but implying, is that the US Government and its minions, are more trustworthy than the Russians - again, an entirely baseless proposition...

That almost has to be the case given the political position of those under comparison, the more closed a society or political process is the less trustful you should be.

Truth has nothing to do with it, but our ability to find the truth does!

For example, how would Russia or China deal with it's own version of Wikileaks, would they even have one? Do you think the absence of it is a sign of virtue?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on April 13, 2017, 01:31:11 pm
The irony of your statement is all their hiding in your avatar!

Been reading the tea leaves again LP?  ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 13, 2017, 01:32:16 pm
The irony of your statement is all their hiding in your avatar!
Been reading the tea leaves again LP?  ;)

Don't have to, it seems pretty straightforward! ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on April 13, 2017, 03:04:08 pm
What you are not saying, but implying, is that the US Government and its minions, are more trustworthy than the Russians - again, an entirely baseless proposition...

I had not intended to imply it, I had intended to downright state it.
I also find it absolutely ludicrous that anyone genuinely believes that France and Germany, along with England are just proxies for the US and as for the former satellite countries, their basis for not trusting Russia as a nation is long established and nothing at all to do with the USA.

There is a reason that the the democratic countries in Europe (and here) follow a similar line to the US and China/Russia/Iran etc do not.

With Russia being less trustworthy... They allow less scrutiny and have often been known to trump up charges against dissidents who call into question their behaviors. This alone is a basis for questioning that trustworthiness.

I will state something else, anyone who thinks that European countries will not stand up to the US and tell them what they think, entirely misunderstands the continent and UK's relationship with the US.
All these years on they still consider US an upstart and do not want to be like the US and they are not afraid to state that.

What were the German & French positions on the war in Iraq?

They will have many common interests though and will often be on the same side of the table and this was obviously emphasised after WWII, where Europe was split firmly into communist Russia (and satellite states) and Western Europe. It was during this phase that Russia, through it's actions created a lot of mistrust, especially in some of the countries that were under it's control. For some to imply Euro countries mistrust Russia because the USA does and not because of their history in dealing with Russia is just simply not even close to true.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on April 13, 2017, 03:51:30 pm
This all sounds a bit "goodies and baddies" to me. The US has been every bit as evil as the Russians. We just happen to be on the right side of the fence.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on April 13, 2017, 03:57:46 pm
This all sounds a bit "goodies and baddies" to me. The US has been every bit as evil as the Russians. We just happen to be on the right side of the fence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemony_or_Survival

This book from a highly respected man has been around for years and spells things out. Essentially the US policies seem unchanged. There are also plenty of other writings on this subject.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 13, 2017, 04:03:11 pm
This all sounds a bit "goodies and baddies" to me. The US has been every bit as evil as the Russians. We just happen to be on the right side of the fence.

Is that "right side" from a political or societal perspective?

I had very religious and political uncle who always claimed communism sits at the foundation of Christianity, Islam and Buddism. I'm not religious, but I doubt the communism practiced by Russia or China has anything to do with religion. Perhaps I should ask a Tibetan or Tajik.

For me the distrust of a closed political and cultural system is always autocratic, I mean automatic. ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on April 13, 2017, 05:52:55 pm
This all sounds a bit "goodies and baddies" to me. The US has been every bit as evil as the Russians. We just happen to be on the right side of the fence.

There you go. Exactly.

Wasn't it the US that dropped atom bombs on two cities in '45 when the war was already won? 100s of 1000s of humans killed. But because we're on the right side of the fence as you so well put it, we justify this action. What if Japan had wiped out nearly half a million Aussies in '45, would we apply the same rationale? POV, perspective.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on April 13, 2017, 06:06:36 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemony_or_Survival

This book from a highly respected man has been around for years and spells things out. Essentially the US policies seem unchanged. There are also plenty of other writings on this subject.

Good old Naom. One of the world's great thinkers, along with Gore Vidal... if you get a chance read some of his stuff on the US system.

I guess we have to remember that the US was settled by religious zealots and that righteous, pious attitude has permeated their psyche. Funny thing is that the words on their currency, 'In God We Trust', is the same Old Testament god that many other religions / peoples pray to.

Once again, it is the 'lesser of two evils' thing rearing its ugly head. Better the Yanks than the Saudis, for example, running the show. Some of the atrocities perpetrated upon its own peoples by the Russians, Chinese, some African/South American/Middle Eastern states... and so on, is an abomination and the lesser of two evils when compared to the lies and manipulations of US regimes.

Better a few corrupt cops keeping the streets safe for us all than letting the street gangs run the show.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on April 13, 2017, 06:15:11 pm
Btw finding a conspiracy theorist is not hard, for any conflict. It doesn't mean that because they have an idea how it happened that their version is correct, a very large (VERY VERY VERY large) percentage of these conspiracies are bunkum

Don't you find it curious, at the very least, that so many folks who label those who peddle conspiracy theories as 'delusional' will happily march off to church to worship an invisible creature in the sky... now there's you're ultimate fairy story. And they don't think of it as a theory, but rather rock solid fact. Wow,

This bloke puts the whole religion farce (how dare I be writing such things at Easter and then exhibit the hypocrisy to enjoy the holiday!!!).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on April 13, 2017, 07:15:07 pm
Don't you find it curious, at the very least, that so many folks who label those who peddle conspiracy theories as 'delusional' will happily march off to church to worship an invisible creature in the sky... now there's you're ultimate fairy story. And they don't think of it as a theory, but rather rock solid fact. Wow,

This bloke puts the whole religion farce (how dare I be writing such things at Easter and then exhibit the hypocrisy to enjoy the holiday!!!).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE

Just love George! Good on yer Baggers!

BTW - who is your invisible, all seeing,  omnipotent being? :))
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Bear on April 13, 2017, 07:57:20 pm
This all sounds a bit "goodies and baddies" to me. The US has been every bit as evil as the Russians. We just happen to be on the right side of the fence.

I've still got the Germans out in front.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on April 13, 2017, 08:07:05 pm
I've still got the Germans out in front.

They're all as bad as each other.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on April 13, 2017, 08:19:22 pm
Don't you find it curious, at the very least, that so many folks who label those who peddle conspiracy theories as 'delusional' will happily march off to church to worship an invisible creature in the sky... now there's you're ultimate fairy story. And they don't think of it as a theory, but rather rock solid fact. Wow,

This bloke puts the whole religion farce (how dare I be writing such things at Easter and then exhibit the hypocrisy to enjoy the holiday!!!).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE

I'm celebrating Oestre, the righteous Germanic goddess of fertility whose festival was usurped by the Christian patriarchy.  After all, if you're going to have faith in an imaginary being, it may as well be one with desirable attributes  :)

While I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, I am acutely aware that the USA perpetrated one of the great falsehoods of all time; generations have grown up believing that millions of Lemmings plummet to their death when their migrations reach cliff tops.  In reality, it was Walt Disney's minions chucking a hundred or so of the poor creatures over a cliff.  Any nation that is guilty of such heinous behaviour is capable of anything!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on April 13, 2017, 08:52:04 pm
I'm celebrating Oestre, the righteous Germanic goddess of fertility whose festival was usurped by the Christian patriarchy.  After all, if you're going to have faith in an imaginary being, it may as well be one with desirable attributes  :)

While I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, I am acutely aware that the USA perpetrated one of the great falsehoods of all time; generations have grown up believing that millions of Lemmings plummet to their death when their migrations reach cliff tops.  In reality, it was Walt Disney's minions chucking a hundred or so of the poor creatures over a cliff.  Any nation that is guilty of such heinous behaviour is capable of anything!

 :)) :)) :)) Disney, the cad!

The Christian patriarchy (beautifully put, David... especially the use of the word 'patriarchy', could also be misogynism!).

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on April 15, 2017, 11:22:00 am
Anyone else worried that Trump has sidelined the State Department (the diplomatic arm of the administration) and is essentially allowing the military to call the shots, so to speak? Yes, General McMaster is a significant upgrade on General Flynn, but the military isn't necessarily the best preparation for dealing with thorny international conflicts. 

This is more of an issue as Trump doesn't seem to have any clue about how to solve international conflicts.  On the campaign trail, he thought the answer to the North Korean problem was easy.  Just tell the Chinese to pull him into line or the US would inflict damage on the Chinese economy.  After his meeting with his Chinese counterpart, he conceded that the Chinese don't have the control of the North Koreans that he had assumed and he backed away from threats to nominate the Chinese as currency manipulators. 

Now his childish strategy has failed, what does he do now?  Who does he turn to for advice?  Steve Bannon and his alt-right principles, his son-in-law (who has no foreign affairs experience), or the military? 

Meeting bluster with bluster won't work, according to those who have studied the North Koreans.  In fact, it may escalate the conflict. 

And what will the military want to do in Syria?  Will it want "boots on the ground"?  Are we seeing an escalation there?  As Trump has claimed he'd kill ISIS, will he go along with that?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on April 15, 2017, 11:33:10 pm
Gareth Evans reckons Donald Trump is "the most ill-informed, under-prepared, ethically challenged and psychologically ill-equipped president in US history".

It didn't take rocket science to work that out.

What interests/concerns me is whether Trump now realises/acknowledges that he's not up to the job; I suspect not  :(
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 16, 2017, 12:57:16 am
Gareth Evans reckons Donald Trump is "the most ill-informed, under-prepared, ethically challenged and psychologically ill-equipped president in US history".

It didn't take rocket science to work that out.

What interests/concerns me is whether Trump now realises/acknowledges that he's not up to the job; I suspect not  :(

Trump has China on the run and Fat Boy Kim ready to push the button...if Trump wins that game of bluff he could be a real hero, or he could be sitting
on a pile of radioactive waste... ;)

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on April 16, 2017, 08:38:35 am
Trump has China on the run and Fat Boy Kim ready to push the button...if Trump wins that game of bluff he could be a real hero, or he could be sitting
on a pile of radioactive waste... ;)

Trump has changed his pre election stance completely in apparently confronting head on the Syrian and NK issues and thereby more  indirectly China and Russia. It shows that he has been brought into line by the hawkish elements such as the military/security establishment and is seeking to establish  credibility as a strongman and fixer. He is certainly proving to be completely self serving and willing to burn people e.g. Flynn and Bannon should the need arise. We live in dangerous times!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on April 16, 2017, 10:32:56 pm
Who would have thought a billionaire would side with the establishment? Don't forget he handed over control of the economy to a Goldman Sachs guy after saying he was going to go after Wall Street if he became President.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on April 16, 2017, 10:39:26 pm
Who would have thought a billionaire would side with the establishment? Don't forget he handed over control of the economy to a Goldman Sachs guy after saying he was going to go after Wall Street if he became President.

Our own country is headed up by an ex Goldman Sachs guy.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on April 17, 2017, 12:12:52 am
Exactly.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 18, 2017, 04:05:28 pm
What's the lowdown on the 457 visa ban, it seems Trump like.

The justification is that Victoria with it's low 457 visa uptake has experienced higher jobs growth than other states. Do the numbers stack up?

Why now? Are there any Korean / North Korean nationals running or owning local agribusinesses and bringing in skilled 457 visa workers?

Agree or disagree, the timing is curious.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on April 18, 2017, 04:29:07 pm
What's the lowdown on the 457 visa ban, it seems Trump like.

The justification is that Victoria with it's low 457 visa uptake has experienced higher jobs growth than other states. Do the numbers stack up?

Why now? Are there any Korean / North Korean nationals running or owning local agribusinesses and bringing in skilled 457 visa workers?

Agree or disagree, the timing is curious.

Im buggered if I know, but according to a mate of mine, the 457 visa workers are working for minimal cash just to get their foot in the door, and 3/4 of the time have limited ability to do the job.  They then work for companies owned by a local ex pat, and are employed in greater numbers than the average skilled worker.  As a result, they are able to get more shoddy work done, more quickly and more cheaply than the locals who are sticking with skilled people who can do the job to minimise headaches, resulting in lesser throughput.

I for one take any person whinging who can afford to own their own business with a grain of salt, but it sounds like a justifiable reason to review it.

After all, whats the point of offering a 457 visa for unskilled migrants to abuse??
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 18, 2017, 04:31:20 pm
After all, whats the point of offering a 457 visa for unskilled migrants to abuse??

I thought to get a 457 visa you had to be a skilled worker?

Wasn't one of the complaints Rinehart was using 457 visa workers to cut costs in highly skill employment areas like maintenance staff?

I watched a story in Statewide a few weeks back that described tomato pickers as skilled workers, that must take all of 5 minutes of training to get up to speed! So it all sounds like bunkum, so I have to ask why now?

I think the timing suggests the Feds are closing an avenue into the country in preparation for a conflict on the Korean Peninsula. Turnbull must have realised Australia could be crawling with VX2 terrorists, no more trains rides for a while I suggest! ;)

I realise it's a long bow, but this seems to have come out of the blue!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on April 18, 2017, 09:07:37 pm
I thought to get a 457 visa you had to be a skilled worker?

Wasn't one of the complaints Rinehart was using 457 visa workers to cut costs in highly skill employment areas like maintenance staff?

I watched a story in Statewide a few weeks back that described tomato pickers as skilled workers, that must take all of 5 minutes of training to get up to speed! So it all sounds like bunkum, so I have to ask why now?

I think the timing suggests the Feds are closing an avenue into the country in preparation for a conflict on the Korean Peninsula. Turnbull must have realised Australia could be crawling with VX2 terrorists, no more trains rides for a while I suggest! ;)

I realise it's a long bow, but this seems to have come out of the blue!

To be eligible for a 457 visa, one had to have qualifications in a field where there was a shortage of qualified local workers.  Apart from the abuse of the system by employers looking for cheap labour, most of the allegedly qualified workers couldn't pass Australian first year apprentice standards.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 18, 2017, 09:19:41 pm
To be eligible for a 457 visa, one had to have qualifications in a field where there was a shortage of qualified local workers.  Apart from the abuse of the system by employers looking for cheap labour, most of the allegedly qualified workers couldn't pass Australian first year apprentice standards.

So Turnbull is upgrading the skill requirements. Perhaps he plans to use the new visa recipients to replace the 350 researchers with about 3500 years of accumulated experience the Abbott kiboshed from CSIRO a few years ago! all those bad climatologists, socialist scientists, Lamarckists and Darwinists be gone!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on April 18, 2017, 09:25:04 pm
The main job banning 457 visas is designed to protect is that of PM.   ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Jeffy38 on April 20, 2017, 07:54:19 pm
The main job banning 457 visas is designed to protect is that of PM.   ;)

Well said bill
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on April 20, 2017, 08:43:19 pm
Well said bill

Don't mention it Tony.  :)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 21, 2017, 07:49:40 am
You all look like a bunch of Paulines to me! ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on April 21, 2017, 11:00:53 am
Whilst they have not done enough still to curtail the exploitation of the overseas skilled workers visas, this first step by the government is indeed a fantastic one.

I won't do the same here, but I put a big rant on Facebook on why I think this and why I applaud the decision. No one doubts the need to cover genuine skill gaps (that can't be covered with on the job training) in specialised fields, but this has been overwhelmingly used to bring in workers from overseas who will happy accept less than the market rate in Australia.

I know of and have been directly involved in discussions/decisions where 457 workers have been chosen simply because executives would not pay to hire locals. That is NOT a skill shortage, that is companies wanting to take a bigger slice of the pie.

Like I also said on my FB post, I think this might be the first time I agree with a Liberal (well other than when Little Johnny took away most peoples guns)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on April 21, 2017, 11:29:52 am
MIO, same here. I've never been a Liberal voter, but when Howard came in, one of the first things he did was, as you say, take lots of guns away. I thought "wow, maybe this guy isn't so bad." Then of course, it all went down hill from there.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 21, 2017, 12:13:49 pm
Whilst they have not done enough still to curtail the exploitation of the overseas skilled workers visas, this first step by the government is indeed a fantastic one.

I won't do the same here, but I put a big rant on Facebook on why I think this and why I applaud the decision. No one doubts the need to cover genuine skill gaps (that can't be covered with on the job training) in specialised fields, but this has been overwhelmingly used to bring in workers from overseas who will happy accept less than the market rate in Australia.

I know of and have been directly involved in discussions/decisions where 457 workers have been chosen simply because executives would not pay to hire locals. That is NOT a skill shortage, that is companies wanting to take a bigger slice of the pie.

Like I also said on my FB post, I think this might be the first time I agree with a Liberal (well other than when Little Johnny took away most peoples guns)

I think I have no problem with 457 visas as long as the skilled and shortage part of the policy is strictly enforced, but in most cases it isn't a valid claim.

Posting articles about career scientists who arrived on 457 visas is rubbish, for starters most of them do not even need to go through the 457 process if their positions are legitimate. It's just become the easy solution and a way for organisations like universities or CSIRO to avoid quotas!

It was laughable seeing the IT sector bleat about the loss of skilled foreign workers when universities are pouring out IT graduates of all types at unprecedented levels. Just last year there were criticisms that there were too many IT graduates and not enough places to offer them, there was a call to reduce graduate numbers! Of course Universities didn't comply because a good portion of those graduates come from the lucrative foreign student marketplace.

It seems what the IT sector's real complaint was, they won't be able to hire low cost foreign IT workers of equivalent skill to the locals if too many locals keep graduating! In effect they want local universities to cut the numbers of IT graduates so they can justify importing low cost workers under the 457 scheme. That is not the intent of that legislation, but it is how it is being applied in any number of industrial and commercial sectors.

A great example is Victorian regional abattoirs. I know that many local workers had been paid out in recent years, made redundant or encouraged to take early retirement, then immediately the qualifying term is passed those jobs are reinstated by foreign 457 workers. Not because they work better, harder, longer or smarter than locals, or that they were not involved with unions or have skills locals cannot deliver. It was done because of an approximate 33% reduction in wage costs, "To help make Australian companies more competitive", but the prices never dropped, yet profits and executive bonuses increased!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on April 21, 2017, 12:57:33 pm
Yeah you have nailed it with regards the point about the profits.
The thing is an abattoir can run and be financially viable in Australia, they may not make as much profit as a business wants, but they can be supported by locals. What companies want is it pay minimum (or close to minimum) wages and locals who have worked for years and like many others in all other industries seen their wages rise, will not just accept minimum wage. The company then says they advertise by can't find anyone and apply for a 457.

I could tell any number of stories from the positions I have held that just show without a doubt that this is a ruse. If an Australian company cannot get the profits they want using local (and actual offshore if need be) staff then in most cases they should move to another industry, because I can tell you for sure that someone will fill the gap they leave behind.

Take the abattoir example... Will Australia just stop eating meat? No, someone will take over the role and run the market in the space the incumbent was.

And this is me trying soooo hard to hold back  :-X :P ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on April 21, 2017, 01:17:07 pm
Sharp stuff, MIO and Spotted One. Good reading.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on April 21, 2017, 01:57:24 pm
The other big joke about the skill shortage is that there has ALWAYS been a skill shortage.
In that were most of us actually skilled to do our first jobs in our respective industries, or were we hired and learned the skills on the job.

In one particular instance I had been hired to in a new team to do a certain job, they realised there was a critical skill set missing in the team for a particular product. They asked me in my 2nd week would I be prepared to learn that product an become the SME (Subject Matter Expert) for that, rather than the Operating System (AIX Unix) that I was originally hired for. This was a product the entire organisation relied on for recovery and operability... I said yes and they spent  about 5,000-6,000 sending me on a course for a week and gave me some manuals to read.

I was given a basic overview of the environment, some topology maps and asked to take it over, guess what... I (and the company) survived, like many others before me had. This used to be normal practise, I have since sent my staff on training to cover skill gaps, but companies are now loathe to spend the money (in actual cash or in work hours) to train staff, be they new or current. Someone in a company somewhere decided that workers are transient and the training budget could be saved and others followed suit.

I am hoping one of the benefits of this will be that employers see it as a responsibility of the business leaders of today to train the next generation the same way most of us were trained on the job. Because this selfish generation of maximum profits at the cost of minimizing investment in local talent is doing nothing to help this country.

To compare the differences, when I got into IT, I worked in a department of about 40 employees with a wage budget of about 2.2 - 2.4 million and about $100,000  in training expenses (thousands of hours of paying wages whilst training). So about 4-6% of the wage budget for training (plus probably another 4% in time dedicated to training)

In one of my last roles, I had around 100-120 employees  in total under me with a wage budget of perhaps 15 million and a training budget of $0. We managed training, but only through leveraging our relationships with vendors to supply our staff with training. We could not spend at all.

It is an absolute joke that companies can claim a skill shortage that they created should mean they can employ outside of the country.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on April 21, 2017, 03:16:32 pm
Worse, a lot of those startups commence as a result of Federal or State Gov funding and innovation grants!

The Feds use our taxes to fund a company whose business model requires the employment of minimum wage foreign nationals to make a profit!

Then the bureaucracy reports we have a shortage of skilled workers, and use the innovative projects that need foreign workers as the example of our skill shortage!

Even worse still, Abbott basically forced the CSIRO into the low cost labor market by cutting budgets and installing managers who who refused to sign off on project funding until wage costs reduced. In many cases Principal Investigators had to replace local PhDs with minimum wage foreign graduate students just to get the money to continue! In one location alone 350 local PhDs and Engineers got the bullet, and this is not counting the Environmental Sciences Group which effectively had it's door closed for political reasons! What an utter a55hole of a bloke! Of course the inevitable happened, a bunch of these foreign 457 graduates turned out to be siphoning CSIRO's IP and sending it back home, including military/defense grade secrets! This event was then used as an example of CSIRO's ineptness to justify another budget cut! In effect he cut until it damaged the organisation, the damage organisation he created then failed, so he used it as reason to cut it again!

The scary thing, Trump is worse!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on April 30, 2017, 06:57:37 pm
Trump has got through his first 100 days without achieving any of the objectives/promises he set/made ... and that's with a Republican majority in both houses  ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 01, 2017, 08:58:17 am
Trump has got through his first 100 days without achieving any of the objectives/promises he set/made ... and that's with a Republican majority in both houses  ::)

That's a 'positive' not a 'negative' :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on May 01, 2017, 09:55:49 am
I would say that it was always going to be the case.  Ive never seen politicians achieve much in 100 days aside from cancelling deals.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on May 01, 2017, 10:00:34 am
That's a 'positive' not a 'negative' :D

That's one way of looking at it Lods  :)

I'm more concerned that it shows how ill-prepared and unsuitable the current POTUS is.  I'm not fussed about his inability to keep what were clearly unachievable election promises (that is a good thing) but I wonder what those who voted for him (or didn't vote) think.  Probably not very much!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 01, 2017, 01:43:54 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz69-RkE4PA

Billy Connolly on Trump.

Caution - keep volume low if you are in public!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: sandsmere on May 02, 2017, 07:22:50 am
Trump has got through his first 100 days without achieving any of the objectives/promises he set/made ... and that's with a Republican majority in both houses  ::)

MMM ! sounds like several of our PMs. ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 02, 2017, 11:49:15 am
OMG! Trump admires strongmen who murder their citizens more than anything.  He's hosting Duterte in the White House.  Maybe he won't have to build a wall after all.  If he kills all the drug users in the US, then he won't need to worry about the cartels anymore.  And he says he'd be honoured to meet with Kim Jong-Un, saying he admires the way he was able to take over from his father at such a young age.  We're lucky Hitler's dead or the red carpet would have been rolled out for him too.  Now there was a strong guy - wow, he took on the world and almost won ...

He also has climbed aboard Steve Bannon's Andrew Jackson bandwagon. He says that Andrew Jackson would have been able to do a deal to stop the Civil War and that Jackson was angry about what happened.  Leaving aside the fact that Jackson died 15 years before the start of the war, so reports of his distaste for the war may have been greatly exaggerated, does Trump realise that the war was fought over slavery? Would Jackson, who apparently inherited 150 slaves, have made a deal short of abolition?  Maybe he might have capped slave ownership at, say, 150.  Then everybody would have been happy.

Of course Trump and Bannon would like to pretend that the Confederacy was all about the southern states defending state rights - they were sticking it to Washington, just like Trump says he's doing.  But as with Trump's many alternative realities, you can only make that case if you ignore the facts.  The Southern States were, in fact, angry that the Federal Government didn't enforce its own laws against the Northern States.  There was legislation called the Fugitive Slaves Act which required States to assist slaveowners track down and recover runaway slaves.  But the Northern States refused to comply.  Far from defending States rights, the southern States wanted the Federal Government to use the military to enforce that Federal law.  That set the scene for the Civil War. When Lincoln was elected on an anti-slavery platform, the Confederate States specifically seceded in order to maintain the right to keep slaves. They fought the war to be able to keep slaves, NOT because they were mounting a resistance to Federal power.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 02, 2017, 01:28:44 pm
By the way, Trump has business interests in the Phillipines.  Trump's business partner there is a billionaire who has just opened a Trump Tower in Manila. He paid the Trump organisation handsomely for the right to use the Trump name.  And he just happens to be a special government Envoy to the US: https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-11-22/trump-s-business-partner-will-be-manila-s-man-in-washington (https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-11-22/trump-s-business-partner-will-be-manila-s-man-in-washington)

Anything that's good for the Trump organisation has to be good for the US, I suppose.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 10, 2017, 10:15:19 am
Democracy died in the US today.

Trump has sacked FBI Director Comey.  Yep, the same guy who was in control of the investigation of Trump's campaign.  To add a note of irony to it, Trump did so based on a memo which said Comey was unfair to Hillary Clinton regarding the so-called email scandal ::)

This is being compared to "The Saturday Night Massacre" in which Nixon sacked Archibald Cox, the special prosecutor investigating Nixon over the Watergate scandal.

Presumably, Trump will appoint a stooge whose main role is to kill the investigation into the Trump campaign.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 10, 2017, 10:21:42 am
Democracy died in the US today.

Trump has sacked FBI Director Comey.  Yep, the same guy who was in control of the investigation of Trump's campaign.  To add a note of irony to it, Trump did so based on a memo which said Comey was unfair to Hillary Clinton regarding the so-called email scandal ::)

This is being compared to "The Saturday Night Massacre" in which Nixon sacked Archibald Cox, the special prosecutor investigating Nixon over the Watergate scandal.

Presumably, Trump will appoint a stooge whose main role is to kill the investigation into the Trump campaign.

That's the argument the left will mount......(although they called for his head when he "sunk" Hillary.)

Some on the right will argue that the bloke should have been fired long ago.....(although that's not the argument they would have mounted when he "sunk" Hillary.)

Hypocrisy on both sides ::)

Comey strikes me as a show-pony who thrived on the attention.
Not the right man for the job

As for the investigation into the campaign ...wait and see...any attempt to cover it up will be very transparent.


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 10, 2017, 10:30:00 am
Poor effort to equate the 2 sides' views. A better analogy would be: would it have been okay for Obama to sack Comey months before the election when he revealed the FBI was investigating Clinton's emails and then appoint a Clinton associate as FBI Director?  Of course not.  It would have appeared to be an attempt to kill an investigation of a Democrat.  But this analogy falls short because Trump is the one with his nuts in the wringer rather than a colleague.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 10, 2017, 10:33:16 am
The real controversy will come with the appointment of a replacement!

It's is interesting to see how power corrupts, I'm not sure anyone no matter who it is that sits at the top of the FBI, has much genuine control over the direction the organisation takes. Certainly they control dollars but they cannot control thoughts, and thoughts are the domain of leaks!

The minute they try to interfere with the general operations for political purposes they basically expire / limit their tenancy on control, they deliver an opportunity for ambitious underlings to expose their political meddling!

The upper levels of all powerful organisations are full of back-room(the faceless) politicians who are both psychopaths and megalomaniacs!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 10, 2017, 10:35:30 am
As for the investigation into the campaign ...wait and see...any attempt to cover it up will be very transparent.
You mean like colluding with Devin Nunes to derail the House Intelligence Committee's investigation, trying to stop the Committee from calling Paula Yates from testifying, threatening her via Twitter before she testified etc. etc.?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 10, 2017, 10:39:02 am
Poor analogy.  A better analogy would be: would it have been okay for Obama to sack Comey months before the election when he revealed the FBI was investigating Clinton's emails and then appoint a Clinton associate as FBI Director?  Of course not.  It would have appeared to be an attempt to kill an investigation of a Democrat.  But this analogy falls short because Trump is the one with his nuts in the wringer rather than a colleague.

We're really only arguing about the timing.
You yourself described his handling of the Hillary stuff during the campaign as a "clusterfork"

He was obviously unsuited to the position...."Democracy died in the USA" is a bit emotive isn't it?

The investigation will continue... Those doing the investigation won't be silent if there is interference from upper levels.

Democrats are already making comparison to Watergate and there is a comparison...These things will always come out eventually.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 10, 2017, 10:53:18 am
Hmmm ... President sacks FBI Director who advises Congress that there's an ongoing investigation into his campaign.  That's democracy at work.  Why shouldn't he?  The President is like an all-powerful king or dictator, isn't he? 

All he needs now is some way to get rid of tenure for Federal Judges so that he can appoint his own stooges and the US will have a true democracy.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 10, 2017, 11:03:08 am
Hmmm ... President sacks FBI Director who advises Congress that there's an ongoing investigation into his campaign.  That's democracy at work.  Why shouldn't he?  The President is like an all-powerful king or dictator, isn't he? 

All he needs now is some way to get rid of tenure for Federal Judges so that he can appoint his own stooges and the US will have a true democracy.

Trump's intention may indeed be to somehow affect the course of the investigation. We know how the bloke works. In fact in his letter dismissing Comey he refers to Comey having told him that he (Trump) wasn't being personally investigated. Why mention that at all!

However the point remains Comey was not suited to the job.
I'm just pointing out the strange behaviour of folks getting all heated, working themselves up into a lather (which is how most Democrats are approaching it), after being so critical of Comey at other times.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 10, 2017, 11:30:05 am
As LP says, we'll have to wait to see who Trump nominates as the new FBI Director and whether the Republicans in the Senate will confirm that nomination.

There are some absolute clowns that Trump could nominate: Sheriff Clarke, Rudy Giuliani and Chris Christie. Christie has been embroiled in Bridgegate over shutting down a bridge as political retribution against a mayor who didn't endorse Christie in his reelection campaign.  He became a lapdog for Trump during his campaign and served as the butt of jokes over his weight. Rudy Giuliani might have been a qualified candidate given his previous life as a mob-busting prosecutor but he presented himself as an unhinged extremist as a Trump surrogate.  Sheriff Clarke is an absolute nutcase.  Nominating him would be like appointing a climate denier and EPA opponent as head of the EPA, which Trump has already done.

Then the issue would be whether Mitch McConnell will kill the requirement for a 60% vote to confirm a nominee.  He threatened to do this in order to confirm Neil Gorsuch to the Supreme Court although this ultimately wasn't necessary.  Will he kill the 60% rule and bully the Republicans to vote to confirm en bloc?  There's little doubt they won't be able to count on any Democrat Senators to vote in favour of any Trump stooge.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 10, 2017, 11:40:36 am
By the way, in totally unrelated news, reports say that Grand Jury subpoenas have been served on associates of General Flynn over the last week regarding his business activities in Russia and Turkey.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 10, 2017, 12:06:06 pm
By the way, just because many think that Comey stuffed up by going public over Clinton's emails doesn't mean he should be sacked. FBI Directors are appointed for 10 year terms precisely to give them a form of tenure that will allow them to act independently of the White House. Yes, an incoming President usually replaces the heads of many agencies.  But not the FBI Director. 

Only once has an FBI Director been sacked before the end of that term.  Bill Clinton sacked William Sessions in 1993 but that was with bipartisan support.  He had committed ethical violations by using the private FBI jet to visit his daughter (in the same way that Speakers such as Slipper and Bronwyn Bishop have been forced out). 

And never before has a President dismissed an FBI Director when the FBI was investigating the associates of the President.

An FBI Director shouldn't have the Damoclean Sword hanging over his or her head, ready to fall for mere errors of judgement in performing the job as opposed to ethical violations.

Apparently, Clinton had received firm advice prior to the election that she could not sack Comey if she won as it would be seen as a naked political revenge and she had accepted that advice.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 16, 2017, 11:21:07 am
WTF ...

The Washington Post reports that Trump disclosed "Codeword-Level" information (the highest level of security classification) to the Russian Foreign Minister and Ambassador in the meeting he held with them in the Oval Office last week, the day after sacking James Comey.

Worse still, it seems he did this simply because he was boasting to them that he had all the best intel  ::)

It's alleged that he disclosed intelligence passed on by a Middle-Eastern ally regarding ISIS on the condition it not be revealed.  The concern is that the Russians would then be able to figure out how the information was gathered and who was involved.  Iran is an ally of Russia and Hezbollah is associated with Iran.  Was the ally Israel or Jordan?  Was the info about the concerns over laptop bombs? Should that ally suspend cooperation, it would be a blow for counter-terrorism efforts in the US and its allies (including us).

The White House has tried to deflect but the effort is being pilloried in the media.  General McMaster tried to attack a straw man argument by vigorously denying that Trump had revealed any sources or intelligence-gathering methods, something that was not alleged in the report. 

This is what you get when you have an ignorant and naive fool as POTUS.  The Russians must think he is a "useful idiot".  Reminds me of the old Get Smart series in which Max would reveal top secret info to KAOS without realising it.  But Trump doesn't have Max's ability to bumble his way to success.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 16, 2017, 11:35:01 am
Well one thing is for sure, Trump is safe from Russian assassination attempts, he's just too valuable to them alive! ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 16, 2017, 11:39:04 am
I wonder what the odds would be on Trump to be impeached during his presidency?

I reckon it would be worth having a few dollars on it, because he doesn't get the gravity of his situation. Oaths you swear and completely enforceable by law. He isn't in a business room now where he can lie, cheat bluff... If everything fails.. well start a new venture..
In this job he will be held accountable and I think he will end up impeached.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 16, 2017, 11:52:55 am
The funny thing is that Trump as POTUS can never reveal classified intelligence because as POTUS he can declassify anything he chooses.  Even if he reveals classified info unintentionally, that disclosure is implicitly declassified. He is exempted from being charged under the Espionage Act.

The rationale for this is that a President has to be able to reveal classified information where circumstances warrant it without needing to submit to Congressional or judicial oversight. No doubt, though, the expectation is that such disclosures would only be made after careful thought and for compelling reasons.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 16, 2017, 12:29:39 pm
I wonder what the odds would be on Trump to be impeached during his presidency?

I reckon it would be worth having a few dollars on it, because he doesn't get the gravity of his situation. Oaths you swear and completely enforceable by law. He isn't in a business room now where he can lie, cheat bluff... If everything fails.. well start a new venture..
In this job he will be held accountable and I think he will end up impeached.

I suspect senior Republicans are just sweating on the opportunity.
If the circus continues they'll be swamped at the mid-terms
For the time being though they have to show some level of support.
What they need is the one big impeachable slip-up.
Unfortunately this won't be it (Post says yes-POTUS says no)

Trumps off on holidays...and that should be an interesting trip. :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 16, 2017, 01:18:01 pm
Trump doesn't say no.  He has merely sent out others to give a non-denial denial which doesn't address the actual allegation in the WPo report.

PS: This isn't an impeachable error as he didn't commit a crime but it's a massive political and security blunder.  Why the hell was he talking directly to Kisliak anyway given he's Russia's spymaster in the US and there's an open investigation into Russia's interference with the US democratic system? You've gotta be joking ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 16, 2017, 01:28:57 pm
Oh there is zero chance he will be impeached here, but he almost certainly has committed or will commit offenses serious enough. The constitution and the governmental process of checks and balances are just things he sees as annoyances to stop him getting done what he thinks is right.

I just can't see him lasting a full term without a slip up of the proportions that see him impeached, or resigning on threat of impeachment
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: thrunthrublu on May 16, 2017, 01:47:47 pm
all commentary and opinions are mere meaningless theatrics in a world where it appears there are opposing sides and ideology.


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Koutz on May 16, 2017, 02:42:07 pm
Wake up people! This Russian investigation is a distraction because the Democrats still cant believe they lost the unlosable election.

Hillary Clinton and Peanut Obama sold 20% of the US uranium to Russia... Where is the investigation there???

Democrat's have become a laughing stock. If Trump was to open an orphanage for all African kids, the Democrats would still find a reason to question his intentions.
People need to wake up to the BS and these Marxist scum.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 16, 2017, 03:07:36 pm
I love the way that Trump and his supporters rail against fake news, and yet they love to create and circulate fake news.  What really annoys them is fact-checking.  With that in mind, all I need to do is link to the fact-checks  :-*

http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/ (http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/)
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/16/trump-claims--falsely--that-clinton-gave-russia-20-of-us-uranium.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/16/trump-claims--falsely--that-clinton-gave-russia-20-of-us-uranium.html)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Koutz on May 16, 2017, 03:34:04 pm
I love the way that Trump and his supporters rail against fake news, and yet they love to create and circulate fake news.  What really annoys them is fact-checking.  With that in mind, all I need to do is link to the fact-checks  :-*

http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/ (http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/)
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/16/trump-claims--falsely--that-clinton-gave-russia-20-of-us-uranium.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/16/trump-claims--falsely--that-clinton-gave-russia-20-of-us-uranium.html)

Don't fact check me with leftist media outlets! Next you will tell me that the Iran deal didn't happen either!!!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 16, 2017, 03:37:10 pm
Sorry, I can't fact-check them with right-wing sources.  My missus would go berserk if I cut some eyeholes in the bedsheets ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 16, 2017, 04:25:09 pm
Just flick between Fox and CNN, they're together on the Foxtel dial...you'll get a balanced view. ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 16, 2017, 06:04:25 pm
Just flick between Fox and CNN, they're together on the Foxtel dial...you'll get a balanced view. ;D

I'm cannot afford luxury items like Foxtel, I listen to the AM radio!  :-[
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 16, 2017, 06:05:22 pm
I'm cannot afford luxury items like Foxtel, I listen to the AM radio!  :-[

Don't worry, Trump will look after you.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: thrunthrublu on May 16, 2017, 09:47:49 pm
Hillary clinton is a great person worthy of a nobel peace prize.
Her work with the clinton foundation was exemplary, raising billions along with the IRC for the haitian
people in their time of desperate need. Her tireless work restored all the damaged services and housing shelters. The Haitian people owe a debt of gratitude to the Clinton family.
Then lets not forget her vision for the middle east, giving the oppresed people of libya their country back from the tyrant leader quaddafi. Libya today is a model country of new found democracy, thriving education and human rights.
Lets all raise a glass to hillary ...here here 2020.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 16, 2017, 10:15:56 pm
Well, Lods, looks like Trump isn't denying it now.  He says he did the right thing by telling the Russians.  Looks like General McMaster has been left high and dry.  Who'd want to be part of Trump's team and being asked to front the press to give a trumped up cover story ... it'd be a bit like being sent over the top of the trenches in WW1  ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 16, 2017, 11:01:02 pm
Well, Lods, looks like Trump isn't denying it now.  He says he did the right thing by telling the Russians.  Looks like General McMaster has been left high and dry.  Who'd want to be part of Trump's team and being asked to front the press to give a trumped up cover story ... it'd be a bit like being sent over the top of the trenches in WW1  ;D

I don't think they ever denied the sharing of the information.
What they denied was that because of that release of information sources could be readily identified.

Quote
LT. GEN. H.R. McMASTER, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I have a brief statement for the record. There is nothing that the president takes more seriously than the security of the American people. The story that came out tonight as reported is false. The president and the foreign minister reviewed a range of common threats to our two countries, including threats to civil aviation.

At no time, at no time, where intelligent sources or methods discussed. And the president did not disclose any military operations that were not already publicly known. Two other senior officials who were present, including the Secretary of the State, remember the meeting the same way and have said so. Their on the record accounts should outweigh anonymous sources. I was in the room. It didn't happen.

Now that's probably a half story but it's consistent with Trumps tweets

The suggestion is that by sharing the information that has put those sources at risk...and that's quite probable.
But unless you have a transcript of the actual conversations we don't know the extent and nature of what Trump actually disclosed.

The more intriguing question is where the leak to the Post came from given there were few of Trumps folk at the meeting...and the answer to that is quite possibly from the Russians who must be beside themselves with the chaos.

Another black mark  for Trump, but as we've seen (unlike most politicians) collective black marks don't seem to stick to this bloke. Anyone else would be finished long ago!

This fellow needs an extra special error, most probably an illegal one, or he'll just roll along leaving his associates in his wake.
Hopefully that error doesn't have huge collateral damage.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 16, 2017, 11:32:37 pm
Quote from: Trump
As President I wanted to share with Russia (at an openly scheduled W.H. meeting) which I have the absolute right to do, facts pertaining to terrorism and airline flight safety. Humanitarian reasons, plus I want Russia to greatly step up their fight against ISIS & terrorism
Seems pretty clear he concedes sharing confidential info with the Russians.  If not, he would have merely stated that there were discussions concerning security issues but no confidential info was disclosed.  The reference to his "absolute right" to do this seems to refer to the exemption POTUS has from the prohibitions in the Espionage Act. 

No denial, either, that he ID'd the city in which the intelligence was gathered.  And the general nature of threats could be discussed without disclosing that detail.  Nor did he deny that the ally stipulated that the intelligence wasn't to be revealed to other countries and the info had therefore been withheld from the actual allies of the US.  Or should I accept that Russia is an ally of the US, or Trump ...

So we actually have no denials from either Trump or McMaster.  McMaster denied merely something that wasn't alleged and Trump denied nothing.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 16, 2017, 11:50:51 pm
By the way, if indeed Trump burnt Mossad, that will exacerbate existing suspicions the Israelis might have had that Trump could leak to the Russians and from there Iran might be informed: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4906642,00.html (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4906642,00.html).

I'd imagine that the US would suffer greatly if Mossad ceases to cooperate with the CIA.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 17, 2017, 08:26:58 am
By the way, if indeed Trump burnt Mossad, that will exacerbate existing suspicions the Israelis might have had that Trump could leak to the Russians and from there Iran might be informed: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4906642,00.html (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4906642,00.html).

I'd imagine that the US would suffer greatly if Mossad ceases to cooperate with the CIA.

Trump won't suffer if he's burned Mossad, it'll be very quick! ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 17, 2017, 08:34:07 am
True :lol:

By the way, I went to Briebart to get the right-wing nut job perspective on this fiasco and there's nothing on it at all.  Seems it didn't happen. But there is a story about Clinton's emails, a rehash of the conspiracy theory over the death of one of her campaign workers  ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 17, 2017, 08:35:55 am
Well we're not talking about the Russians in the Oval office today...It's back to Comey ::)

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/16/us/politics/james-comey-trump-flynn-russia-investigation.html?_r=0
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 17, 2017, 08:39:51 am
"I'll see your non-existing tapes and raise with my real-life contemporaneous memoranda of our conversations". I reckon Comey might take the pot.

Knowing that Trump acts like an Alzheimer sufferer, I wouldn't be surprised if Trump blasts Comey via Twitter for daring to keep records of private conversations in the White House (which implies outrageously that Trump wasn't to be trusted).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 17, 2017, 10:04:49 am
Yesterday I found odds for Trump being impeached during his time in office at 5/4 or 2.25 for those needing a conversion.

I think this is going to explode pretty soon
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 17, 2017, 10:06:09 am
Yesterday I found odds for Trump being impeached during his time in office at 5/4 or 2.25 for those needing a conversion.

I think this is going to explode pretty soon

Pence awaits in the wings.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 17, 2017, 10:15:34 am
If they string it out for 18 months, then the GOP may well lose control of the House and/or the Senate in the mid-terms.  Then Pence won't be much of a problem.

Makes me think of Keating's taunt directed to Hewson - I'm going to do you slowly. 

I doubt if Trump would allow Pence to act like he wasn't part of Trump's shenanigans.  He would make sure that Pence is handcuffed to him.  The thing he hates most is an underling protecting his own butt rather than backing him to the hilt.  Underlings are like Secret Service agents - they're there to jump in front of him and take metaphorical bullets.

The bad news is that the 3rd in line is Paul Ryan, at least until the mid-term Election.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 17, 2017, 10:25:48 am
If they string it out for 18 months, then the GOP may well lose control of the House and/or the Senate in the mid-terms.  Then Pence won't be much of a problem.

Makes me think of Keating's taunt directed to Hewson - I'm going to do you slowly. 

I doubt if Trump would allow Pence to act like he wasn't part of Trump's shenanigans.  He would make sure that Pence is handcuffed to him.  The thing he hates most is an underling protecting his own butt rather than backing him to the hilt.  Underlings are like Secret Service agents - they're there to jump in front of him and take metaphorical bullets.

The bad news is that the 3rd in line is Paul Ryan, at least until the mid-term Election.

Trump will have no say in it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 17, 2017, 10:27:40 am
If they string it out for 18 months, then the GOP may well lose control of the House and/or the Senate in the mid-terms.  Then Pence won't be much of a problem.

Makes me think of Keating's taunt directed to Hewson - I'm going to do you slowly. 

I doubt if Trump would allow Pence to act like he wasn't part of Trump's shenanigans.  He would make sure that Pence is handcuffed to him.  The thing he hates most is an underling protecting his own butt rather than backing him to the hilt.  Underlings are like Secret Service agents - they're there to jump in front of him and take metaphorical bullets.

The bad news is that the 3rd in line is Paul Ryan, at least until the mid-term Election.

Interesting that most pundits on the Trump regime are not talking 'if', but 'when'. A blessing in disguise is that no-one can protect Trump from himself (his big mouth/tweets).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 17, 2017, 10:35:03 am
Don't worry, Trump will look after you.

Glory Be!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 17, 2017, 10:38:14 am
I know many speculated that Trump was the instrument to an election win, and that if they won he would be hung out to dry, but I'm not sure anybody expected it to be so rapid!

Is there a way out of this for Trump?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 17, 2017, 10:49:18 am
Trump's sacking of Comey and his continued confrontations generally with the "systemic organisations" of Washington, along with the resultant chaotic situation at the White House will only be allowed to continue for a limited time. Unless things change pdq his days as president are numbered - one way or another.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 17, 2017, 11:01:45 am
Trump's sacking of Comey and his continued confrontations generally with the "systemic organisations" of Washington, along with the resultant chaotic situation at the White House will only be allowed to continue for a limited time. Unless things change pdq his days as president are numbered - one way or another.

Just as Blondie suggested! :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on May 17, 2017, 11:18:45 am
Hillary clinton is a great person worthy of a nobel peace prize.
Her work with the clinton foundation was exemplary, raising billions along with the IRC for the haitian
people in their time of desperate need. Her tireless work restored all the damaged services and housing shelters. The Haitian people owe a debt of gratitude to the Clinton family.
Im not going to dispute this, as I dont know anything about her, and good on her if this is all facts that are true.  Im sure she will get her time in the sun eventually.

Quote
Then lets not forget her vision for the middle east, giving the oppresed people of libya their country back from the tyrant leader quaddafi. Libya today is a model country of new found democracy, thriving education and human rights.
Lets all raise a glass to hillary ...here here 2020.

This is an interesting perspective.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/11/election-affect-middle-east-policy-161105125945727.html

Ill defer to people who know things about this area much better than us.

It is an opinion piece, but frankly, I find nothing to suggest that Libya is even a nation that is united under one government, let alone democratic.




The other side of that though, is how much of that can be attributed to her anyway...

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 17, 2017, 11:28:49 am
I don't know a lot about the Haiti situation other than allegations by Trump, which like most allegations from him, most people ignored. I figured thrunthrublu was having a sarcastic dig at Clinton, because his next comment about Libya had to be sarcastic and it appears he believes that mess is Hilary's fault.

I actually have no time for Clinton in either case, but yeah I thought that was sarcastic.

I don't see how it is relevant to Trump and his presidency in any case. Hilary is gone, the election is over... What matters now is what Trump is doing as the most powerful man in the world... and it doesn't bode well.

I can imagine his aim is to tear apart the whole CIA and FBI, which it must be obvious he knows nothing about and ends up ripping out years of service and intelligence from the organisation.

For the sake of their country it seems almost inevitable that something has to happen soon, because he is now not just making a heck of a noise he is weakening relationships, weakening organisations and weakening his country.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 17, 2017, 01:04:34 pm
I don't know a lot about the Haiti situation other than allegations by Trump, which like most allegations from him, most people ignored. I figured thrunthrublu was having a sarcastic dig at Clinton, because his next comment about Libya had to be sarcastic and it appears he believes that mess is Hilary's fault.

I actually have no time for Clinton in either case, but yeah I thought that was sarcastic.

I don't see how it is relevant to Trump and his presidency in any case. Hilary is gone, the election is over... What matters now is what Trump is doing as the most powerful man in the world... and it doesn't bode well.

I can imagine his aim is to tear apart the whole CIA and FBI, which it must be obvious he knows nothing about and ends up ripping out years of service and intelligence from the organisation.

For the sake of their country it seems almost inevitable that something has to happen soon, because he is now not just making a heck of a noise he is weakening relationships, weakening organisations and weakening his country.

He won't be allowed to get that far IMO. He will need to appease the establishment power brokers eventually and I would put my money on something dramatic in the Middle East e.g. Iran. Apparently there is already a huge build up of military logistics and support in place.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 17, 2017, 02:14:59 pm
If Trump puts so little value on the welfare and safety of highly trained and expensive top secret assets like an intelligence operatives, what value does he place on the welfare and safety of Mr Joe Average?

Should they fight for Trump, would they fight for Trump?

People write that wars have been waged for an ideology, but all of the wars and conflicts seem to have a pivotal character behind the inspiration and motivation to defend or promote an ideology. Churchill, Hitler, Stalin, Ung, Kyi, Kennedy, Khrushchev, Napoleon, etc., etc.. Good or bad I expect that they all inspired some form of belief and trust that led their followers to follow.

I get nothing from Trump, every vitriolic mouthful he issues reminds me of a British Officer in a Monty Python sketch!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on May 17, 2017, 02:24:57 pm
what value does he place on the welfare and safety of Mr Joe Average?

About the same as 99% of politicians.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 17, 2017, 03:02:40 pm
About the same as 99% of politicians.
I wonder if his supporters are starting to understand that he's just like 99% of politicians - in it for himself, lies repeatedly, stands for nothing etc. etc.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on May 17, 2017, 04:03:40 pm
I wonder if his supporters are starting to understand that he's just like 99% of politicians - in it for himself, lies repeatedly, stands for nothing etc. etc.

It only matters what the swing voters think and a lot of them knew who Trump is and they didn't care. It was an F U to the establishment. They will probably swing back in 2020 with Hillary out of the picture.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 17, 2017, 04:36:56 pm
He may have "inspired" a lot of voters who didn't vote last time to have a go next time. ;D
Best argument against complacency ever ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 17, 2017, 05:34:33 pm
Whatever one may think of the establishment, voting as an FU to them is dopey. Just throwing votes away without any knowledge or care about the policies, consequences etc. If any Yank thinks they are better off with Trump than HC, well, there's not much to say to that.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Koutz on May 17, 2017, 08:19:42 pm
Whatever one may think of the establishment, voting as an FU to them is dopey. Just throwing votes away without any knowledge or care about the policies, consequences etc. If any Yank thinks they are better off with Trump than HC, well, there's not much to say to that.

Why? Because the media tells you that you are better off with the establishment?

Please tell me what trump has done in the last 5 months since taking office that has effected you in a negitive way?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 17, 2017, 08:25:07 pm
Why? Because the media tells you that you are better off with the establishment?

Please tell me what trump has done in the last 5 months since taking office that has effected you in a negitive way?

Are you serious ?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on May 17, 2017, 10:45:56 pm
Why? Because the media tells you that you are better off with the establishment?

Please tell me what trump has done in the last 5 months since taking office that has effected you in a negitive way?

Trump is the establishment  ::)

As for what he's done that's had a negative effect on me, how about:
1. Bombing the Syrian Air Force.
2. Praising the North Korean dictator.
3. Sharing secret information with the Russians.
4. Weakening environmental protection.
5. Weakening heritage protection.
6. Demeaning women.
7. Making the world a more dangerous place.
8. Promoting racism and discrimination.
9. Jeopardising the economy.
10. Bastardising the English language.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on May 17, 2017, 11:06:54 pm
As the punchline to a classic joke goes, "Don't call me 'Freckles' and where were you when the sh1t hit the fan?"

Quote
"One of the problems that Trump created for himself in removing Jim Comey is that he dramatically increased the list of things that Jim Comey is now allowed to talk about."

Another example of how the Orange Emperor lacks the capacity and is ill-prepared to be POTUS.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on May 17, 2017, 11:48:36 pm
Whatever one may think of the establishment, voting as an FU to them is dopey. Just throwing votes away without any knowledge or care about the policies, consequences etc. If any Yank thinks they are better off with Trump than HC, well, there's not much to say to that.

I'm not sure I agree with this.

The vote for trump was more of a vote against Hillary IMHO.

It does send a message, and does achieve something.   Give us better candidates.

4 years of pain for hopefully better standards moving forward.  One thing is certain.  No one will want this outcome ever again.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 18, 2017, 07:10:06 am
I'm not sure I agree with this.

The vote for trump was more of a vote against Hillary IMHO.

It does send a message, and does achieve something.   Give us better candidates.

4 years of pain for hopefully better standards moving forward.  One thing is certain.  No one will want this outcome ever again.

Fitness for office, ability to lead, actually being a professional politician (as opposed to a professional clown) are all the types of things voters ought be considering when they vote. I never liked Hilary, but she is infinitely more qualified to be President than Trump, and would do a much better job. The big FU is cheap satisfaction that rarely works.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 18, 2017, 08:19:55 am
You are right Paul that being an able and competent politician should be just about the most important factor... A criteria that doesn't gift anyone the role, but can preclude people from it, but I understand how Trump was voted in and the establishment needed a wake up and it is getting it world wide.
Where the governments have become complacent to the needs of the people and the people are saying they won't take it anymore. They won't allow governments to rip up what they have built their lives building.

I think an anti-establishment vote can though serve a real purpose and it might even do that in this case as well, if it doesn't bring down the US in the process, which is a serious possibility.. Or bring the world to war.

Hilary was an awful choice for president, so awful that to many people they would rather take the shake up and turmoil than to have her in the Oval Office. I wouldn't have wanted to vote for her either if I stayed there and I would only vote Democrat.

The perfect scenario is that Trump is impeached or resigns from office soon, before too much damage is done. Someone (anyone sensible) takes over from him to see out the term and both parties take something from this. I hope the Democrats take from it that they need an alternative nominee and the Republicans... well most are inbred so I am not sure they will learn much, but anything is possible.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on May 18, 2017, 08:32:52 am
Fitness for office, ability to lead, actually being a professional politician (as opposed to a professional clown) are all the types of things voters ought be considering when they vote. I never liked Hilary, but she is infinitely more qualified to be President than Trump, and would do a much better job. The big FU is cheap satisfaction that rarely works.

She's a crazy neo-con, a war monger. Evil personified. A New World Order type, as was Obama sadly.

That said, Trump now seems to be (largely) playing to the same songbook?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 18, 2017, 09:08:38 am
You are right Paul that being an able and competent politician should be just about the most important factor... A criteria that doesn't gift anyone the role, but can preclude people from it, but I understand how Trump was voted in and the establishment needed a wake up and it is getting it world wide.
Where the governments have become complacent to the needs of the people and the people are saying they won't take it anymore. They won't allow governments to rip up what they have built their lives building.

I think an anti-establishment vote can though serve a real purpose and it might even do that in this case as well, if it doesn't bring down the US in the process, which is a serious possibility.. Or bring the world to war.

Hilary was an awful choice for president, so awful that to many people they would rather take the shake up and turmoil than to have her in the Oval Office. I wouldn't have wanted to vote for her either if I stayed there and I would only vote Democrat.

The perfect scenario is that Trump is impeached or resigns from office soon, before too much damage is done. Someone (anyone sensible) takes over from him to see out the term and both parties take something from this. I hope the Democrats take from it that they need an alternative nominee and the Republicans... well most are inbred so I am not sure they will learn much, but anything is possible.

I liked Bernie Sanders. And whilst i was no Hilary fan, she was at least aware of the significance of office.

If the establishment must be sent a message, this is a pretty severe way of doing it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 18, 2017, 09:09:36 am
She's a crazy neo-con, a war monger. Evil personified. A New World Order type, as was Obama sadly.

That said, Trump now seems to be (largely) playing to the same songbook?

see my reply #442.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 18, 2017, 09:11:40 am
She's a crazy neo-con, a war monger. Evil personified. A New World Order type, as was Obama sadly.

That said, Trump now seems to be (largely) playing to the same songbook?

That is so off the charts it is not funny...
There is nothing to back up most of that name calling, particularly towards Obama who could hardly be consider a war monger.

I think history would look back actually well on Obama. He won't be remembered as a great president and he won't be remembered as a bad president.
I think he will be remembered as a diplomatic effective president.

Looking at his rankings done by 3 major polls to date that had him listed as an option (2 were during his term in office) show the following average ranking going back over the last 50 years. (Obama was the 44th President, but 43rd individual)
That ranks Obama behind Reagan and Clinton and a little ahead of Bush Senior, with Ford, Carter, Nixon and Bush Jnr a long way behind.
I probably would have ranked him 3rd or 4th myself... Where do you think he stands in that group?

As for Trump... I suspect he will poll as one of the worst 3 presidents in history in every major poll going forward

PresidentSiena
 2010
APSA
2015
C-SPAN
2017
Average
Nixon30342830.67
Ford28242525.67
Carter32262628
Reagan18110912.67
Bush Snr22172019.67
Clinton1381512
Bush Jnr39353335.67
Obama15181215
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 18, 2017, 09:16:30 am
I liked Bernie Sanders. And whilst i was no Hilary fan, she was at least aware of the significance of office.

If the establishment must be sent a message, this is a pretty severe way of doing it.

It is, but it is almost what is needed at times.
Take the French Revolution.. Was that a good thing?
Well in the immediate aftermath, almost certainly no...
There was the Reign of Terror to follow as a direct result and absolute chaos, but in the long run.. yes.
The country and it's people were better off.

It can also backfire and some would suggest the Russian Revolution is an example, with the oppression potentially the power corrupting Lenin (and more significantly Stalin) so that the people were more oppressed than they were under Tsarist rule.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 18, 2017, 09:23:38 am
It is, but it is almost what is needed at times.
Take the French Revolution.. Was that a good thing?
Well in the immediate aftermath, almost certainly no...
There was the Reign of Terror to follow as a direct result and absolute chaos, but in the long run.. yes.
The country and it's people were better off.

It can also backfire and some would suggest the Russian Revolution is an example, with the oppression potentially the power corrupting Lenin (and more significantly Stalin) so that the people were more oppressed than they were under Tsarist rule.

Fair points MIO, and I agree with both examples. Some say (and I agree) that the Russian Revolution dealt socialism a severe blow, from which it has yet to recover. If socialism means anything, it means worker control over the means of production. This was never achieved under Lenin. The Leninist school of thought was actually pretty anti worker. His approach was that you had the smart guys (Lenin etc. ) who were supposed to lead the dumb Slavs to a better future. In fact Lenin acted pretty quickly in stamping out worker unions etc. People who look at Russia as proof that Socialism is bad completely miss the point IMO.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 18, 2017, 09:33:39 am
Yeah it is a topic I am fairly interested in and I am a fan of Lenin (to a degree...), but he was completely ineffectual as a leader and you are right in saying that Russia never achieved or come close to achieving the goal they set out to achieve when they first set out to overthrow the monarchy.

I won't stray too far off topic, but I think Lenin genuinely wanted to achieve a Utopian world where the collective worked for each other, with all equal etc when he went down the path and I admire his determination in setting his life on that course, but (in a way similar to Lech Walesa in Poland), he was far better at inspiring and achieving revolution, than he was in ruling.

I don't know there has even been a country ruled on true socialist principles and I don't know that there ever will be. But... I think that is as far off the Trump topic as I will go :)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 18, 2017, 09:34:08 am
DOJ Appoints Special Prosecutor To Investigate Trump Campaign’s Russia Ties (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/doj-special-counsel-russia-trump_us_591cbfa2e4b03b485cae5465?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009), HuffPost, 17/5.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 18, 2017, 09:36:14 am
http://www.theage.com.au/world/exfbi-chief-robert-mueller-to-oversee-probe-of-russian-interference-in-election-20170517-gw7dyz.html

Opps - Mav beat me to it.

This should be interesting.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 18, 2017, 09:46:07 am
Yeah it is a topic I am fairly interested in and I am a fan of Lenin (to a degree...), but he was completely ineffectual as a leader and you are right in saying that Russia never achieved or come close to achieving the goal they set out to achieve when they first set out to overthrow the monarchy.

I won't stray too far off topic, but I think Lenin genuinely wanted to achieve a Utopian world where the collective worked for each other, with all equal etc when he went down the path and I admire his determination in setting his life on that course, but (in a way similar to Lech Walesa in Poland), he was far better at inspiring and achieving revolution, than he was in ruling.

I don't know there has even been a country ruled on true socialist principles and I don't know that there ever will be. But... I think that is as far off the Trump topic as I will go :)

Some historians believe that Lenin was Jewish and a he, and the Russian Revolution, were primarily part of Zionist plan to undermine the christian west and achieve dominance. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 18, 2017, 10:07:05 am
Yep, bad news for Trump. Special Counsel are like runaway trains - once they get under way, you never know where they'll end up.  For instance, the Republicans appointed Ken Starr to look into the Whitewater land deal and suggestion that there was something fishy about the death of Vince Foster.  That was a bust, but along the way Starr started looking into Clinton's alleged sexual misconduct with women.  That ended up with Clinton impeached over lying about Monica Lewinsky. In other words, they are much harder to control than Royal Commissioners who can often be forced to ignore embarrassing issues by restricting their terms of reference

Trump can sack a Special Counsel but sacking Archibald Cox, the special counsel investigating Watergate, didn't do Nixon much good.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 18, 2017, 10:09:25 am
Do you have some sources?

In all the readings I have done I have never seen anything to suggest his actions where inspired by the Zionists. Trotsky was of course Jewish, but again I don't think his actions were aimed at creating any sort of Jewish state, which Russia would not ever have become even if it was an intent.

The primary motivation in starting Lenin down this course was the assassination of his brother after his attempted assassination of Alexander III.

I have read some far fetched things, but I would be really interested to know which historians (as opposed to crackpots) do claim his actions where part of this greater Zionist movement.

Oh, any reference to Lenin having a Jewish heritage doesn't support his actions therefore naturally being for Zionists aims.

Perhaps another topic for Lenin/Russia/Revolutions etc?  ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 18, 2017, 10:11:36 am
Others have already linked and referenced the material, but yes Trump looks to be in a lot of trouble at the moment, the walls are closing in fast... Does he jump or is he pushed? That seems to be the biggest question at the moment
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 18, 2017, 10:45:05 am
The reaction to the appointment is mixed although no one has anything less than the highest regard for Mueller.

The immediate effect may be to kill off public hearings.  For instance, it looked like Comey was to testify in open session in Congress and his memos were going to be subpoenad.  That was likely to be massive as Comey would have made public any attempts Trump may have made to protect Flynn.  It seems that it's now likely that Comey will decline to testify at the request of his old mate Mueller.  Everyone seems to believe that Mueller's investigation will maintain absolute secrecy during its investigations.  And at the end of the day, Mueller will either say indictments should follow or that there will be no indictments.  In other words, there will be no big press conference like the one Comey held. Some believe, though, that he might send a final report to Congress as Starr and other Special Counsel did.

The Democrats want a select committee which will look into the wider issue of Russian interference (as with the Select Committee into Watergate).

Republican members of Congress will probably be the happiest as they're no longer being called on to do something and, at least in the short term, the public revelations will slow down.  They can now restrict congressional hearings out of supposed deference to Mueller's investigation.

On the other hand, Mueller will be able to command far greater resources than the Congressional investigations that are currently under way.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 18, 2017, 10:50:38 am
Do you have some sources?



I read this a while ago now, I will  find it and get back.

OK, these two references are not my original readings but pretty closely summarise them and prompted my post.

Lenin in fact had Jewish ancestry but did not openly identify as being Jewish. The Bolsheviks however had a disproportionally high Jewish representation and were not, IMO, primarily motivated by improving the lot of the people of Russia.

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/05/opinion/l-lenin-and-the-search-for-jewish-roots-747092.html

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_weber.html

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 18, 2017, 01:50:28 pm
Some interesting discussions going on here, the only thing I would say is that language, ideology and labeling are human conditions. They are always flawed, the minute an individual commits to a specific cause they are doomed to prove themselves wrong.

This is the very thing scientists generally understand, at least those who are not defending a tenure!

Relative to Trump and other ideologs;

Quote from: Charles Darwin, 'The Descent of Man'
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.”

It's a most relevant quote, but not just about matters of science!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 18, 2017, 02:29:03 pm
I read this a while ago now, I will  find it and get back.

OK, these two references are not my original readings but pretty closely summarise them and prompted my post.

Lenin in fact had Jewish ancestry but did not openly identify as being Jewish. The Bolsheviks however had a disproportionally high Jewish representation and were not, IMO, primarily motivated by improving the lot of the people of Russia.

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/05/opinion/l-lenin-and-the-search-for-jewish-roots-747092.html

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_weber.html

The first point, that second link.. a quick look at the site and and the author's other stories and you can see he has an anti-semetic viewpoint and so that can just be discarded completely. A further look shows it is a Holocaust Denial site, which again goes back to my point that says no crackpots.


The other link just discusses Lenin's Jewish heritage, I already addressed that it wasn't a valid argument to say his was a Zionist agenda.

The Lenin Jewish history is known, but generally it is considered that he was unlikely even aware of it himself or that is had no relevance.
Tsarist Russia was an oppressive autocratic regime and a lot of people wanted change, you could not protest openly without recriminations and Lenin's brother in rebellion tried to assassinate Nicholas II's father, the then current Tsar. For his troubles, he was executed.

It is not at all hard to see why this is considered one of the key moments that drove Lenin towards revolution and socialism.
Remember that like most Autocratic countries at the time Russia Tsarist rule was absolute and any form of insurrection was put down swiftly. It isn't uncommon that there were a number of Jews amongst those rebelling as they filled a lot of university positions and honestly traditionally it is places such as universities (not in the classes) where intellectuals gather to talk about political change and upheaval.
It must again be remembered that you could be off to Siberia for years for organising a meeting against the rule of the Tsar. If you were to run a public protest it could be met with death...
I think there was every reason for All Russians to want to overthrow the Tsar

I don't see any evidence at all that suggests they were not mainly about improving the plight of Russians, then Stalin as a non Jew could never have climbed the ladder that he did. Remember he was primarily a Georgian thug, in charge of squads than rad raids on banks etc to fund the revolution. This man could never have been more than a pawn if the movement was run from afar by other Zionists.

I stick by the fact that I have never seen a scrap of evidence to suggest the motive to drive the Jewish cause, above breaking the oppression of the Tsarist rule.

Remember that this was a time of change, it was a time where the lower and lower middle classes were beginning to educate and questioning and existence beyond one that restricted them to basically a life of servitude. From the French revolution, through the European revolutions of the mid 19th century and onto the Russian and right up to the revolutions of the late 20th century. When groups start to question their oppression, it often triggers a resistance and this is what happened in Russia.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 18, 2017, 02:45:18 pm
@MIO

I think we'll have to disagree about the Bolsheviks MIO. IMO you have, shall I say, a generous view of their activities.

Anyway here is a link to some relatively contemporary writings of Winston Churchill who, when I last looked, was not a holocaust denier.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/bookchapters/WSC/WSCwrote1920.html
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 18, 2017, 02:55:18 pm
I don't think it is so generous, I think intentions of most where well laid, but that the execution was abysmal.

To be clear, I rate Stalin as every bit as evil as Hitler, in every fashion.

I have a strong opinion on the subject as European history and in particular the history of Russia and Eastern Europe is something for about 8 years I used to study in my 'down time'. I was never a great watcher of tv or anything and so that it is what I done in my spare time. (Well after I quite playing chess)... my god I am a geek lol

Now like most people who spend so long reading about these topics, you start out thinking one thing, then swaying another and then eventually hardening into a stance. It doesn't make my opinion right and I don't profess at all to be an expert, but yes I do have a hardened opinion on the topic that it would take a fair bit to sway from.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 18, 2017, 03:07:58 pm
@MIO

Mate, I was a real "red ragger" in my student days and the Russian Revolution held a great romantic allure for me - man the barricades, power to the workers etc etc.

Unfortunately, the more I learned about it the more a disillusionment crept in. Unfortunately I think most (I won't say all) great events of history tend to have a cynical motive or narrow national self-interests driving them - very few occur in the pursuit of altruism or the concern for the welfare of people. Very sad really.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 18, 2017, 04:12:42 pm
Unfortunately, the more I learned about it the more a disillusionment crept in. Unfortunately I think most (I won't say all) great events of history tend to have a cynical motive or narrow national self-interests driving them - very few occur in the pursuit of altruism or the concern for the welfare of people. Very sad really.

See this is where I disagree, I think that most movements ended up burning bright and fading out and a lot are left with some pretty poor legacies, but I think most major movements (such as the French or Russian revolutions, just because we are talking about them) came about because people needed them.

The leaders such as Lenin dedicated their entire life to achieving this outcome, they can be jailed, sent to Siberia, killed, exiled to live in relative poverty or anything, but it doesn't change their belief, it hardens it. Now the problem comes about once power comes, they believe in absolutely no bending at all, it must be 100% their way.. It is the same will that allowed them to have the belief through the years that thwarts them from seeing compromise and then this inevitably ends badly.

Take someone like Robespierre, he was nicknamed the incorruptible, he believed so strongly that the views he had were the views that the country needed. He believed that this was vindicated by finally seeing the end of the reign they had fought against, that they believe people must be sacrificed who threaten the existence of the environment they have fought their lives for and I think it has nothing to do with them going into these situations obsessed with gaining power for themselves for their own gain.

I do believe there is a fair element of narcissism though, as they need to believe completely in their view of the world as being the right, as being the view that others who don't believe just have not yet seen...

So yes, I think they make huge mistakes, but I don't believe in most cases the goal is power (though in some cases of course it is).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 18, 2017, 05:14:48 pm
@MIO

You may well be right MIO. I am not a historian but instead have only become familiar with certain events of history due to specific interests, and mainly from 20th century onward so I'm not really in a position to comment on for instance The French Revolution. The events I've read up on, e.g the West's activities in the Middle East over the past 100 years, certainly have not been driven by anything other than the quest for power, influence and riches.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 18, 2017, 07:13:30 pm
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/suddenly-this-is-a-president-staring-down-the-barrel-of-impeachment-20170518-gw7kxq.html

Interesting observations from Waleed Aly. This whole Trump thing is bizarre alright. I'm still trying to figure out what the hell is going on.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 18, 2017, 07:18:30 pm
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/suddenly-this-is-a-president-staring-down-the-barrel-of-impeachment-20170518-gw7kxq.html

Interesting observations from Waleed Aly. This whole Trump thing is bizarre alright. I'm still trying to figure out what the hell is going on.

If he ends up being impeached, I wonder whether the idea of "teaching the establishment a lesson" will backfire, and in fact give them an upper hand, since it could well grant them a "we told you so" moment.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 18, 2017, 07:19:57 pm
If he ends up being impeached, I wonder whether the idea of "teaching the establishment a lesson" will backfire, and in fact give them an upper hand, since it could well grant them a "we told you so" moment.

I think you may well be right on the money with that P.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 18, 2017, 07:24:27 pm
I think it still works in a way Paul.
I don't think the establishment will be as complacent as they were, which in reality is what was required, because if someone comes out with a general similar thought process, but without the bluster they may still seem attractive to the masses and the establishment has to go some way towards appeasing the masses or face the same thing over.

Ie.. a competent Trump.. Which might be scarier.

@Cookie.. on the Middle East, I think you may be right, I know far far less about that region, but tend to agree that based on what I know the desire to make money drives most (at least external) interests.

Amazing how quick the world would basically 'forget' the entire Middle East and leave it to it's own devices like they do in many of the African countries if the Oil dried up or the reliance on it disappeared.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Koutz on May 18, 2017, 09:01:08 pm
Trump is the establishment  ::)

As for what he's done that's had a negative effect on me, how about:
1. Bombing the Syrian Air Force.
2. Praising the North Korean dictator.
3. Sharing secret information with the Russians.
4. Weakening environmental protection.
5. Weakening heritage protection.
6. Demeaning women.
7. Making the world a more dangerous place.
8. Promoting racism and discrimination.
9. Jeopardising the economy.
10. Bastardising the English language.

Bombing the Syrian Air Force has had a negative effected on you?

Hahaha... I rest my case there.

Maybe you need to crawl back into your safe space so that Dictator Trump doesnt do anymore nasty things that might hurt your feelings!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 18, 2017, 10:45:03 pm
Roger Ailes, disgraced former head of FoxNews and Trump campaign adviser, dead at 77.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 19, 2017, 11:20:17 am
Bombing the Syrian Air Force has had a negative effected on you?

Hahaha... I rest my case there.

Maybe you need to crawl back into your safe space so that Dictator Trump doesnt do anymore nasty things that might hurt your feelings!

I think you missed the point of what DJC was pointing out. Have another look at his list... pretty damning stuff and all with on-going ramifications.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 19, 2017, 12:11:31 pm
Trump's biggest vulnerability is his relationship with the Russians and his stated desire to improve relations with them. This undermines the narrative that they are a very dangerous enemy of the US and the main justification for a $1Trillion annual defence budget. This in turn goes directly against some very very powerful and influential interests in the US. Unless he recants this position he won't last.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 19, 2017, 12:21:04 pm
Say again? So, if Russia becomes an ally, the US will disarm? That suggests the US has no concerns about China, North Korea, Iran, Syria, ISIS, Al Qaeda etc. etc. Or is there a class of weapon which can only be used against the Russians?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 19, 2017, 12:36:35 pm
Say again? So, if Russia becomes an ally, the US will disarm? That suggests the US has no concerns about China, North Korea, Iran, Syria, ISIS, Al Qaeda etc. etc. Or is there a class of weapon which can only be used against the Russians?

Did not say that. You said that.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 19, 2017, 12:46:54 pm
You said:
... his stated desire to improve relations with them. This undermines the narrative that they are a very dangerous enemy of the US and the main justification for a $1Trillion annual defence budget.
You suggested therefore that improved relations would lead to reduction in the annual defence budget.  I disagree.

In particular, improved relations with Russia wouldn't reduce the need for the US to be able to confront the Russians if the relationship worsened.  And it certainly wouldn't justify reducing the ability of the US to meet challenges from hostile or adversarial forces elsewhere in the world.

I assume you are referring to the military/industrial complex when you talk about "very, very powerful and influential interests in the US".  As the defence budget wouldn't fall, why would they be worried?  After all, Trump campaigned on increasing the defence budget and insisted that the Congress had to implement such an increase in recent budget negotiations. 

No doubt there are military and diplomatic personnel who are concerned about the Russians.  Maybe those concerns have little to do with money and more to do with hardheaded concerns about the Russians.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 19, 2017, 12:53:06 pm
You said:You suggested therefore that improved relations would lead to reduction in the annual defence budget. I disagree.

In particular, improved relations with Russia wouldn't reduce the need for the US to be able to confront the Russians if the relationship worsened.  And it certainly wouldn't justify reducing the ability of the US to meet challenges from hostile or adversarial forces elsewhere in the world.

No I didn't. I stated that the current budget is based, in part, on Russia being perceived as a very dangerous enemy. That perception is very strongly held by powerful interests within the US.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 19, 2017, 01:04:23 pm
Quite an assertion but where's the evidence? Whether the Russians are classed as dangerous or potentially dangerous given their military might does not affect the annual defence budget.  The US has to be equipped to meet a blitzkreig land war in Europe in either case.  More importantly, there are numerous other current or potential enemies against whom the US needs to be armed. And more important still is the fact that Trump is actively committed to increasing the annual defence budget which belies the suggestion that the funding issue is the source of resistance.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 19, 2017, 01:15:24 pm
Quite an assertion but where's the evidence? Whether the Russians are classed as dangerous or potentially dangerous given their military might does not affect the annual defence budget.  The US has to be equipped to meet a blitzkreig land war in Europe in either case.  More importantly, there are numerous other current or potential enemies against whom the US needs to be armed. And more important still is the fact that Trump is actively committed to increasing the annual defence budget which makes the suggestion that the funding issue is the source of resistance.

By the same token, where's the evidence for your assertions? You make plenty. So you don't think that Russia's perceived by the US as a dangerous enemy? And you assert that even if it is, this doesn't affect the US defence budget? You are not aware of all of the US bases which surround Russia based upon that perception?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on May 19, 2017, 01:17:41 pm
I think you missed the point of what DJC was pointing out. Have another look at his list... pretty damning stuff and all with on-going ramifications.

I'm not sure Baggers.


I dont like Trump, and frankly I think he is what the shadow government that truly runs America wants, because people are so focussed on Trump that they are not really paying attention to things that they should and are hysterical about what isnt a real issue.


But, Ill play regarding the list.  Here is my rebuttals:

1. Bombing the Syrian Air Force. - Bombing the "Syrian Air Force" (note it was an airstrip on one day which failed to shut it down for less than 24 hours) was deemed to be a justified show of strength in response to Assad's supposed chemical attack, which kind of doesn't make sense for it to be on a list of undesirable traits doesnt it????

2. Praising the North Korean dictator. - Praising the North Korean dictator is also a bit of stretch considering the following article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/30/donald-trump-praises-north-korean-leader-smart-cookie/

Its paraphrasing at best particularly when tensions are running high, and Diplomacy is required. 

Quote

Last week he told Reuters: “His father dies, took over a regime. So say what you want, but that is not easy, especially at that age.”

Mr Trump was careful to add that he was not praising the North Korean dictator, whose brutal regime executes dissidents (and is believed to be responsible for murdering Mr Kim’s estranged half-brother in Malaysia this year), simply pointing out that taking power in such circumstances was a tough thing to do.

The words have prompted intense speculation that Mr Trump is trying to find some common ground with his adversary and open a diplomatic channel by suggesting that Mr Kim is not irrational but was simply thrown into a very difficult situation at a tender age.


3. Sharing secret information with the Russians. - This is not that big a deal.  I'm sure its happened before, and it will happen again perhaps a little more deliberately, but to quote the guardian "The intelligence Trump shared involved an Islamic State plot to use bombs hidden in laptop computers to bring down planes".  Had no one told the media, would this be a problem?? As per usual, the media are the issue.  Don't tell and no one will find out we have sources with this information.


4. Weakening environmental protection.  Policy change to undo something that Obama brought in.  Sounds bad and good for coal and businesses.  Might be bad.  Might make no difference. Might be a different plan.  I doubt it, its business so this would be an economic change to benefit business.

5. Weakening heritage protection.  I cant find anything specific on this, but it might roll into 4.

6. Demeaning women.  Not going to argue too heavily about this.  I find this an emotive over reaction to a few different things to do with potentially his abortion bill which was to do with pulling funding for organisations actively pushing abortion overseas.  reportedly many presidents have done similar, but that doesn't mean any rights were removed. The conversation about kissing women and touching their bits was a bit crude and vulgar, but hardly demeaning.  It is something I would expect of teenagers or early 20's males, but Ive heard women in their 40's and 50's say some things that would make your head spin, which simply makes him human as much as we all would like to see him as an oompa loompa.

7. Making the world a more dangerous place.  - The USA has done a grand job of this for the last 50 years.  I dont see why its something reserved for Trump as president for less than a year.

8. Promoting racism and discrimination.  Perhaps.   He talks about the wall.  The one that exists in some parts but he hasn't built yet??  Anyone appealing to nationalism is going to sound dicriminatory and racist, but bigotry is an emotive tool and he may have simply used it to get elected.  discrimination and racism exists unilaterally and I don't believe that it should be reserved for a criticism of Trump but seems to come from the mysoginistic white male thing.  In fact, this ties into my distraction above.

9. Jeopardising the economy.  See point 7 although I find it interesting that the stock market actually surged on the back of him being announced President.  given his point 5 is geared towards good for jobs and the economy its hard to argue this one and that one.


10. Bastardising the English language.  Guilty as charged.  In fact, he seems a real bastard.  Beyond that, he hasnt done much that any other president hasn't done before him but has done it in such a way that offsides everyone.  That makes him guilty of being poor at PR and a poor choice of leader, but that was what he was when he was elected, and I find it difficult to really argue against someone warts and all, when they were voted in on that merit.



I dont like the man.  I feel that these gripes are more of a shopping list of things to hate him about, without really making any difference to anything he does as president.

Im still waiting for a real gripe to come to the surface.  At the moment he is crude and uninspiring.  Hardly an impeachable offense, but he seems to want to try and make that happen.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 19, 2017, 01:23:02 pm
When the media start misquoting or verballing Trump, and they do so regularly to try and boost their ratings, they play directly into his hands!

I wouldn't be surprised to find they have their own people out in regional media deliberately misquoting him.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 19, 2017, 01:26:20 pm
Unless Russia becomes a true ally which cooperates militarily with the US, the US has no choice but to guard against a sudden military conflict. 

Why is Australia spending billions on the JSF?  We can't stand against China anyway unless the US defends us. Whether we have a few JSFs won't matter much overall We have good relations with the Chinese anyway as we do with our immediate neighbours.  Yet we clearly are arming ourselves to maintain air superiority over the Indonesians, for example.  IOW, we are arming ourselves not against any existing threat but against the possibility of the relationship worsening in the future.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 19, 2017, 01:31:08 pm
Unless Russia becomes a true ally which cooperates militarily with the US, the US has no choice but to guard against a sudden military conflict. 

Why is Australia spending billions on the JSF?  We can't stand against China anyway unless the US defends us. Whether we have a few JSFs won't matter much overall We have good relations with the Chinese anyway as we do with our immediate neighbours.  Yet we clearly are arming ourselves to maintain air superiority over the Indonesians, for example.  IOW, we are arming ourselves not against any existing threat but against the possibility of the relationship worsening in the future.

But isn't trying to normalise relations with them a step towards this?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 19, 2017, 01:31:22 pm
When the media start misquoting or verballing Trump, and they do so regularly to try and boost their ratings, they play directly into his hands!

I wouldn't be surprised to find they have their own people out in regional media deliberately misquoting him.
Yep, how dare they cut and paste his tweets or replay what he says during interviews.  Trump should be the only one who can say what his words mean and he should also be allowed to change their meaning as time goes on.  Who says "White" can't mean "Black"?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 19, 2017, 01:40:48 pm
But isn't trying to normalise relations with them a step towards this?
If we were living in Disneyland, that would be possible.  And when the Soviet Union collapsed, that was the hope.  Remember when there was the talk of an end to history?  But it's very clear that Russia under Putin wants to be a geopolitical power rather than a US ally like Britain and Germany.  The US has no alternative but to work on a worst-case scenario.  Russia has the military strength to successfully invade Western Europe or annex bits of it as Hitler did prior to going one step too far by invading Poland.  In fact, it's already annexed part of Ukraine albeit that it was part of the old Eastern bloc.

Improving relations with Russia may well be beneficial, depending on whether Putin acts in good faith (and that is debatable).  But until there is a true alliance, the US would need to maintain its military preparedness to counter Russian aggression.  Pray to God, but keep your gunpowder dry.

It's funny to read Tom Clancy novels from the 90s now.  He was a right-winger and NRA gun-nut.  He had an alternative universe going in which Jack Ryan, a former CIA man, became President while a former KGB guy reached the top of the Kremlin.  They had a big bromance and that relationship allowed the US and Russia to have each other's back.  In one book, they had to take on a coordinated attack from Iran, India and China.  The Russians helped the US drop a bomb on an Ayatollah-type Iranian leader to bring that conflict to an end.  In another, it was Pearl Harbour all over again with Japan taking over US territories in the Pacific and arming itself with nuclear missiles.  The US helped to thwart a Japanese attempt to annex part of Russia in that conflict.  Those were the days ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 19, 2017, 01:55:48 pm
If we were living in Disneyland, that would be possible.  And when the Soviet Union collapsed, that was the hope.  Remember when there was the talk of an end to history?  But it's very clear that Russia under Putin wants to be a geopolitical power rather than a US ally like Britain and Germany.  The US has no alternative but to work on a worst-case scenario.  Russia has the military strength to successfully invade Western Europe or annex bits of it as Hitler did prior to going one step too far by invading Poland.  In fact, it's already annexed part of Ukraine albeit that it was part of the old Eastern bloc.

Improving relations with Russia may well be beneficial, depending on whether Putin acts in good faith (and that is debatable).  But until there is a true alliance, the US would need to maintain its military preparedness to counter Russian aggression.  Pray to God, but keep your gunpowder dry.

Talking about Disneyland, it's bl00dy rude of Russia to move its country right up to those US bases in such  a provocative act of confrontation. Are you familiar with US activities in the ME over the past 20 years or so? Do you actually know what happened in Ukraine? We are never going to get anywhere with this discussion - you won't convince me and vice versa, certainly not via this medium - it's becoming a pissing competition.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 19, 2017, 02:29:24 pm

3. Sharing secret information with the Russians. - This is not that big a deal.  I'm sure its happened before, and it will happen again perhaps a little more deliberately, but to quote the guardian "The intelligence Trump shared involved an Islamic State plot to use bombs hidden in laptop computers to bring down planes".  Had no one told the media, would this be a problem?? As per usual, the media are the issue.  Don't tell and no one will find out we have sources with this information.


Actually if the reports are accurate (always an if) the NSA and I think CIA were apparently scrambling the moment he opened his mouth. This was considered a 'code word' bit of intel, meaning by the US standards it was the 4 (and highest) level of intel, in that it limits those authorised to a certain level and narrows the authority even further.

If reports are also to be believed Trump has broken an unwritten rule between intelligence agencies and governments that says you don't pass on sensitive intel without the authorisation of the government passing you that Intel (in this case believed to be Israel).

If everything has happened as reported or generally as reported, then this was potentially a huge stuff up and Russia will be laughing all the way.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 19, 2017, 02:31:48 pm
One thing about the US budget and the military.
It doesn't matter if Russia imploded tomorrow, because there is always China, Iran and others that worry the US enough to ensure they have the most technologically advanced army in the world.

But yes, Russia is considered a major threat to world peace by the US (and it should be added, by a lot of mainland Europe).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: thrunthrublu on May 19, 2017, 02:36:18 pm
If we were living in Disneyland, that would be possible.  And when the Soviet Union collapsed, that was the hope.  Remember when there was the talk of an end to history?  But it's very clear that Russia under Putin wants to be a geopolitical power rather than a US ally like Britain and Germany.  The US has no alternative but to work on a worst-case scenario.  Russia has the military strength to successfully invade Western Europe or annex bits of it as Hitler did prior to going one step too far by invading Poland.  In fact, it's already annexed part of Ukraine albeit that it was part of the old Eastern bloc.

Improving relations with Russia may well be beneficial, depending on whether Putin acts in good faith (and that is debatable).  But until there is a true alliance, the US would need to maintain its military preparedness to counter Russian aggression.  Pray to God, but keep your gunpowder dry.

It's funny to read Tom Clancy novels from the 90s now.  He was a right-winger and NRA gun-nut.  He had an alternative universe going in which Jack Ryan, a former CIA man, became President while a former KGB guy reached the top of the Kremlin.  They had a big bromance and that relationship allowed the US and Russia to have each other's back.  In one book, they had to take on a coordinated attack from Iran, India and China.  The Russians helped the US drop a bomb on an Ayatollah-type Iranian leader to bring that conflict to an end.  In another, it was Pearl Harbour all over again with Japan taking over US territories in the Pacific and arming itself with nuclear missiles.  The US helped to thwart a Japanese attempt to annex part of Russia in that conflict.  Those were the days ...

There was no annexing as you say. It was a reunification of previously annexed german lands as per the treat of Versailles. Poland on the other hand was an invasion on its part to refuse re unification of Danzig despite exhaustive failed negotiations. Stalins attempt to encircle germany and take eastern europe was well known and documented in a negotiation attempt by Molotov to seek agreement with Hitler to take Yugoslavia, the straights of Dardanelles Bulgaria etc.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 19, 2017, 03:35:03 pm
Hang on... So Germany never annexed parts of Czechoslovakia?
I am sure those Czechs will be relieved to hear that. Remembering that the annexations of both the Sudetenland and of Australia were of territories that were part of the Austro-Hungarian (not German) empires prior to the war and Czechoslovakia declared independence during the WWI.

Also... Are you for one second suggesting that Poland was at fault for being invaded or am I reading that wrong?
Now this is a country that already was overrun and disappeared from the face of the earth for over 100 years when it was occupied by Germany and Russia.

Hitler never wanted to negotiate with Poland, Hitler wanted to carve Poland back up and take away the independence and identity, something Germans and Russians had successfully done for 123 years.

Perhaps I am reading your post all wrong, but if I am reading it right, you have an extraordinary view on this history of World War II and the events leading to it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 19, 2017, 06:17:24 pm
The problem with Europe is that for all it's recorded history ethnic groups have occupied land that bears little resemblance to the continuing "artifical" borders created by various conflicts.

It is little wonder there have been continuing troubles..
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Koutz on May 19, 2017, 07:54:12 pm
I'm not sure Baggers.


I dont like Trump, and frankly I think he is what the shadow government that truly runs America wants, because people are so focussed on Trump that they are not really paying attention to things that they should and are hysterical about what isnt a real issue.


But, Ill play regarding the list.  Here is my rebuttals:

1. Bombing the Syrian Air Force. - Bombing the "Syrian Air Force" (note it was an airstrip on one day which failed to shut it down for less than 24 hours) was deemed to be a justified show of strength in response to Assad's supposed chemical attack, which kind of doesn't make sense for it to be on a list of undesirable traits doesnt it????

2. Praising the North Korean dictator. - Praising the North Korean dictator is also a bit of stretch considering the following article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/30/donald-trump-praises-north-korean-leader-smart-cookie/

Its paraphrasing at best particularly when tensions are running high, and Diplomacy is required. 


3. Sharing secret information with the Russians. - This is not that big a deal.  I'm sure its happened before, and it will happen again perhaps a little more deliberately, but to quote the guardian "The intelligence Trump shared involved an Islamic State plot to use bombs hidden in laptop computers to bring down planes".  Had no one told the media, would this be a problem?? As per usual, the media are the issue.  Don't tell and no one will find out we have sources with this information.


4. Weakening environmental protection.  Policy change to undo something that Obama brought in.  Sounds bad and good for coal and businesses.  Might be bad.  Might make no difference. Might be a different plan.  I doubt it, its business so this would be an economic change to benefit business.

5. Weakening heritage protection.  I cant find anything specific on this, but it might roll into 4.

6. Demeaning women.  Not going to argue too heavily about this.  I find this an emotive over reaction to a few different things to do with potentially his abortion bill which was to do with pulling funding for organisations actively pushing abortion overseas.  reportedly many presidents have done similar, but that doesn't mean any rights were removed. The conversation about kissing women and touching their bits was a bit crude and vulgar, but hardly demeaning.  It is something I would expect of teenagers or early 20's males, but Ive heard women in their 40's and 50's say some things that would make your head spin, which simply makes him human as much as we all would like to see him as an oompa loompa.

7. Making the world a more dangerous place.  - The USA has done a grand job of this for the last 50 years.  I dont see why its something reserved for Trump as president for less than a year.

8. Promoting racism and discrimination.  Perhaps.   He talks about the wall.  The one that exists in some parts but he hasn't built yet??  Anyone appealing to nationalism is going to sound dicriminatory and racist, but bigotry is an emotive tool and he may have simply used it to get elected.  discrimination and racism exists unilaterally and I don't believe that it should be reserved for a criticism of Trump but seems to come from the mysoginistic white male thing.  In fact, this ties into my distraction above.

9. Jeopardising the economy.  See point 7 although I find it interesting that the stock market actually surged on the back of him being announced President.  given his point 5 is geared towards good for jobs and the economy its hard to argue this one and that one.


10. Bastardising the English language.  Guilty as charged.  In fact, he seems a real bastard.  Beyond that, he hasnt done much that any other president hasn't done before him but has done it in such a way that offsides everyone.  That makes him guilty of being poor at PR and a poor choice of leader, but that was what he was when he was elected, and I find it difficult to really argue against someone warts and all, when they were voted in on that merit.



I dont like the man.  I feel that these gripes are more of a shopping list of things to hate him about, without really making any difference to anything he does as president.

Im still waiting for a real gripe to come to the surface.  At the moment he is crude and uninspiring.  Hardly an impeachable offense, but he seems to want to try and make that happen.

Hit the nail on the head!

People need to take a deep breath and let things unfold!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 19, 2017, 08:06:56 pm
I doubt he's having as much fun as he thought it would be...he's "öffplanet" enough to just walk away from the whole thing if hés getting no satisfaction from it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: thrunthrublu on May 20, 2017, 12:01:16 am
Hang on... So Germany never annexed parts of Czechoslovakia?
I am sure those Czechs will be relieved to hear that. Remembering that the annexations of both the Sudetenland and of Australia were of territories that were part of the Austro-Hungarian (not German) empires prior to the war and Czechoslovakia declared independence during the WWI.

Also... Are you for one second suggesting that Poland was at fault for being invaded or am I reading that wrong?
Now this is a country that already was overrun and disappeared from the face of the earth for over 100 years when it was occupied by Germany and Russia.

Hitler never wanted to negotiate with Poland, Hitler wanted to carve Poland back up and take away the independence and identity, something Germans and Russians had successfully done for 123 years.

Perhaps I am reading your post all wrong, but if I am reading it right, you have an extraordinary view on this history of World War II and the events leading to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mA0kk29DBA   
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 20, 2017, 12:31:57 am
That poor bastard.  If Trump is the target of the greatest witch hunt in US history, Hitler was brought down by the greatest witch hunt in the history of the world, period!  That doco has opened my eyes.  So unfair.  Def he had his haters. Just sad!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 20, 2017, 12:36:07 am
How was my impression of a Trump tweet?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: thrunthrublu on May 20, 2017, 12:45:48 am
passes the commie marxist test for sure
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 20, 2017, 12:48:07 am
Maybe I'll get an invite to the Oval Office then.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 20, 2017, 08:33:39 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mA0kk29DBA  

I mean this with all due respect, but I can't respond to crackpot literature/"documentaries". ( I am calling them crackpot not yourself btw).

Even the overview is enough to make it clear that this is from a hard right wing style group. I can read the same sort of "history" by any holocaust denial "historian" also. See my comments on Weber.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 20, 2017, 09:26:52 am
Wow!

NYTimes reports that Trump told the Russian Foreign Minister and Ambassador at the now infamous meeting that he had just fired that nut job Comey and that had taken a lot of pressure off him concerning Russia.

And the WPo reports that a close adviser of Trump's is now a significant person of interest in the investigation. Until now, the targets appeared to be former Trump associates such as Flynn, Manafort and Page.  I wouldn't be surprised if it's Jared Kuschner. He had some dealings with a dodgy Russian bank with links to the Kremlin and left those dealings off his financial declaration forms.  As he's Trump's son-in-law, that would cut right to the bone.  Trump could boot him from the WH but not from his family.

Bigger than the above is a report that Comey will testify before Congress.  Some had predicted that Mueller would persuade Comey to keep mum while he, Mueller, set to work. Interesting times ahead. Imagine the Twitter rants to come  ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 20, 2017, 09:43:28 am
I wonder how President Pence is going to do things differently ;)
I doubt he'll be a big tweeter :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cimm1979 on May 20, 2017, 10:49:36 am
I wonder how President Pence is going to do things differently ;)
I doubt he'll be a big tweeter :D

Hopefully He's going to get dragged into this. Trumps overtly ridiculous but Pence is actually a monster. His views are far more extreme than trumps and he a christian fundamentalist who believes in holy wars and using nuclear weapons to start them . His views is that it doesn't matter if everyone gets killed because the righteous will be in heaven.

Where have we heard that crap before.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 20, 2017, 01:11:33 pm
Quote
Russian officials bragged in conversations during the presidential campaign that they had cultivated a strong relationship with former Trump adviser retired Gen. Michael Flynn and believed they could use him to influence Donald Trump and his team, sources told CNN.
Russian officials bragged they could use Flynn to influence Trump, sources say (http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/19/politics/michael-flynn-donald-trump-russia-influence/index.html), CNN.

Amazing...

Flynn apparently did influence US policy in Syria.  The Obama administration had proposed to back Kurdish rebels in Syria as they were keen to attack ISIS (whereas Assad and Russia were more interested in attacking rebels).  Flynn opposed this and the operation didn't proceed.

Now, it just so happens that this aligned with the views of Erdogan's Turkey.  Turkey is highly opposed to arming the Kurds for any reason.  Just because Flynn and Erdogan were of the same mind doesn't mean anything was dodgy.  Great minds may just think alike.

But after his dismissal by Trump, Flynn finally registered as an agent of the Turkish Government and disclosed that the Turks paid the firm employing Flynn $500,000. So Trump had an undisclosed agent of the Turkish Government as National Security Adviser influencing White House policy in line with the views of the Turkish Government.   ::)

Would Flynn have acted as an agent of influence for the Kremlin if he hadn't been sacked?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: thrunthrublu on May 20, 2017, 03:01:11 pm
Maybe I'll get an invite to the Oval Office then.

or coffee with david brock
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: thrunthrublu on May 20, 2017, 03:06:52 pm
I mean this with all due respect, but I can't respond to crackpot literature/"documentaries". ( I am calling them crackpot not yourself btw).

Even the overview is enough to make it clear that this is from a hard right wing style group. I can read the same sort of "history" by any holocaust denial "historian" also. See my comments on Weber.

hard either side is irrelevant. With reciprocal due respect, is any of it fiction?
we're talking about the outbreak of WW2 and annexing of German lands - nothing to do with weber or holocaust
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 20, 2017, 03:32:10 pm

we're talking about the outbreak of WW2 and annexing of German lands - nothing to do with weber or holocaust

Oh I get that (though I don't agree with the annexing of German lands. I mention Weber and the holocaust as examples of revisionists. Which I consider those that made this video to be, though I didn't finish it as it seems a waste of time, I can read similar articles as well, but I disagree with the conclusions they draw also.

Just a couple of small points though around the annexing on German lands. Is Germany considering the "Holy Roman Empire" as what is German land or is it considering anything that any time was ever taken by the Germans?

I ask because Danzig/Gdansk, was made up of majority German people, but was not German land, the only time it really was "German" was during the period where Germany and Russia took Poland by force and dissolved the entire country.

I also ask at what period Germany is referring when it says that the Sudetenland in Czech was German.. Again it was German majority, but that alone doesn't make it German.

The "documentary" does at all try and take an unbias look at things, it says that poor little Hitler was forced into any of his actions and just wanted to live happily with everyone, but that isn't true, there was absolute no requirement to invade Poland, for a start it is not like the German majority in Danzig was being persecuted in fact history shows the opposite and that once the NAZI party took over in Danzig the Polish and Jewish minorities were under attack.

The reason I couldn't watch the lot was simple, I feel I know exactly what they are trying to achieve and it is just like watching a Michael Moore "documentary".

If lands go to whoever once took them by force, then all of Europe has claims to be owned elsewhere, from the Danes owning most of England (in a very abstract manner as it was never claimed for Denmark), to Italy owning most of Europe and Napoleon from the West Coast of Europe to Moscow.

In my view of the world, Hitler's Germany was about expansionism and yes cleansing Europe of "undesirables", it was about absolute power under one party and one person. Any talk of unification of lost lands, was simply talk to bolster support of the masses in a frenzy of patriotic support for a greater motherland.

German never went to war to prevent Stalin and France from encircling and taking Germany, that simply could not be less true. If that really was the aim of Stalin and France, Germany was ripe for the picking as soon as it disarmed.

Edit:
One thing I will say... The Treaty of Versailles strongly contributed to World War II and in fact the attraction of the NAZI party in Germany, because it sought belittle and bankrupt a proud nation. It was a huge mistake by the allies after World War I.
If doesn't however excuse Hitler and Germany for World War II.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: thrunthrublu on May 20, 2017, 04:37:50 pm
Oh I get that (though I don't agree with the annexing of German lands. I mention Weber and the holocaust as examples of revisionists. Which I consider those that made this video to be, though I didn't finish it as it seems a waste of time, I can read similar articles as well, but I disagree with the conclusions they draw also.

Just a couple of small points though around the annexing on German lands. Is Germany considering the "Holy Roman Empire" as what is German land or is it considering anything that any time was ever taken by the Germans?

I ask because Danzig/Gdansk, was made up of majority German people, but was not German land, the only time it really was "German" was during the period where Germany and Russia took Poland by force and dissolved the entire country.

I also ask at what period Germany is referring when it says that the Sudetenland in Czech was German.. Again it was German majority, but that alone doesn't make it German.

The "documentary" does at all try and take an unbias look at things, it says that poor little Hitler was forced into any of his actions and just wanted to live happily with everyone, but that isn't true, there was absolute no requirement to invade Poland, for a start it is not like the German majority in Danzig was being persecuted in fact history shows the opposite and that once the NAZI party took over in Danzig the Polish and Jewish minorities were under attack.

The reason I couldn't watch the lot was simple, I feel I know exactly what they are trying to achieve and it is just like watching a Michael Moore "documentary".

If lands go to whoever once took them by force, then all of Europe has claims to be owned elsewhere, from the Danes owning most of England (in a very abstract manner as it was never claimed for Denmark), to Italy owning most of Europe and Napoleon from the West Coast of Europe to Moscow.

In my view of the world, Hitler's Germany was about expansionism and yes cleansing Europe of "undesirables", it was about absolute power under one party and one person. Any talk of unification of lost lands, was simply talk to bolster support of the masses in a frenzy of patriotic support for a greater motherland.

German never went to war to prevent Stalin and France from encircling and taking Germany, that simply could not be less true. If that really was the aim of Stalin and France, Germany was ripe for the picking as soon as it disarmed.

The carve up of Germany after WW1, the reparations thereafter, the occupation of the ruhr by the french, left Germany in a hopeless situation. Plundered from inside and out and Berlin turned into a cesspool. Context is important.
 The planned destruction of Germany wasn't because of expansionism, nazism, Poland, or anything else other than for Balance. A usury free state, zero unemployment, high home ownership, workers rights zero debt was a system that was unacceptable to world jewry at the time, hence them declaring war on Germany and ensuring it eventuated at all costs. Expansionism was clear under Stalin, who plundered his own people , stole and starved them to fund this. The soviets were not signatories to the 1929 Geneva convention and were a massive threat to not only Germany but to all of Europe. When you speak to the old soldiers, Red terror was the real threat to europe.
Funnily enough, these soldiers knew the war was over in 1943 deep into barbarossa, when they found used cans of american food stuffs everywhere left by Stalins armies. They knew the Americans had made "deliveries"
There have been many lies for 75 years and they will continue to persist , even in this age of information or disinformation. Why? opinions vary. I know, and im comfortable with that. The fact that This conversation is teetering on being even illegal in 19 countries, says something
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 23, 2017, 09:08:14 pm
Trump has not done many things correct, some may say none.

But credit when credit is due!

Labelling those lunatic bombers "Losers" is possible going to be the best thing that comes out of his Presidency and it should be the default label we give all these lunatics from now on!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 23, 2017, 09:13:16 pm
Trump is living proof that bullsh1t will baffle brains. But only for so long... When will the Democrats realise that they shouldn't attack Trump personally but rather attribute everything he does, publicly, to the Republicans... Clueless pr1cks are being sucked into the Trump approach.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Professer E on May 23, 2017, 09:21:42 pm
All today's events will achieve is another series of retaliatory cruise missile and drone strikes obliterating a couple of villages and cave systems in some obscure, unpronounceable part of the world. Slaughtered kids in Manchester, slaughtered kids in Arseholistan.   No good comes out of this for anybody.  Anybody thinking that the Trump administration can come up with the knock out strategy to end the carnage is kidding themselves.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 23, 2017, 09:28:16 pm
Interesting take on fighting ISIS from Israeli military officers: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/22/israeli-officers-to-trump-youre-doing-isis-wrong-215172?lo=ap_d1 (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/22/israeli-officers-to-trump-youre-doing-isis-wrong-215172?lo=ap_d1).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 23, 2017, 09:36:14 pm
By the way, as much as Trump would like to focus on Iran, the Shi'ites aren't likely to bomb us.  Al Qaeda and ISIS are Sunni extremists.  The Saudis have a long connection to Wahabi extremists.  But when Trump bows down to the Saudi king, there's no chance he'll tell them to pull their heads in.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 23, 2017, 09:39:59 pm
By the way, as much as Trump would like to focus on Iran, the Shi'ites aren't likely to bomb us.  Al Qaeda and ISIS are Sunni extremists.  The Saudis have a long connection to Wahabi extremists.  But when Trump bows down to the Saudi king, there's no chance he'll tell them to pull their heads in.

Exactly. Any wonder the Saudi's look so happy having Trump in their pocket... now, what will the Democrats, some Republicans and 'fake' media do with that. The image of Trump at the Israeli wall must have sickened many Muslims...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 23, 2017, 09:55:47 pm
Interesting take on fighting ISIS from Israeli military officers: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/22/israeli-officers-to-trump-youre-doing-isis-wrong-215172?lo=ap_d1 (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/22/israeli-officers-to-trump-youre-doing-isis-wrong-215172?lo=ap_d1).

Yep..the Trump lets bomb the crap out of ISIS theory will lead to ISIS going underground and increasing guerilla tactics, they know they cant beat the US in conventional warfare
and will step up the terror stuff. The US did their best work in the middle east in the old days when they played the politics well and had different leaders and countries on the payroll
and working for them , using them against each other...blowing up everything that moves will only cause more problems.
Russia tried the heavy army action vs the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan and left  with their tails between their legs and a lot poorer for the exercise.....

US need to  find a way to get Trump to resign before he does anymore damage...our economy is suffering too thanks to his antics back home...the man is a disaster in all areas...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Koutz on May 23, 2017, 11:44:18 pm
Yep..the Trump lets bomb the crap out of ISIS theory will lead to ISIS going underground and increasing guerilla tactics, they know they cant beat the US in conventional warfare
and will step up the terror stuff. The US did their best work in the middle east in the old days when they played the politics well and had different leaders and countries on the payroll
and working for them , using them against each other...blowing up everything that moves will only cause more problems.
Russia tried the heavy army action vs the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan and left  with their tails between their legs and a lot poorer for the exercise.....

US need to  find a way to get Trump to resign before he does anymore damage...our economy is suffering too thanks to his antics back home...the man is a disaster in all areas...


Yeah maybe they need to bring back Obama to fix the problem. Leftist fools...

We have lost all control of our society with all the integration. You can't integrate certain cultures and until the left starts to recognise this fact, hope of winning an election here or in the US is very slim.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 25, 2017, 10:39:10 am
Looks like Comey was sucked into holding his extraordinary press conference in which he both cleared and condemned Clinton by a faked Russian account of an email between 2 Americans which allegedly stated that Loretta Lynch would whitewash Clinton regardless of the FBI findings:
How a dubious Russian document influenced the FBI’s handling of the Clinton probe (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/how-a-dubious-russian-document-influenced-the-fbis-handling-of-the-clinton-probe/2017/05/24/f375c07c-3a95-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?utm_term=.74bde6e43e6d), WaPo.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on May 25, 2017, 09:11:30 pm
I don't want to politicise such an awful tragedy as the Manchester bombing, but these leaks of sensitive information are seriously a worry, not only for this investigation, but for what might be withheld for fears of future leaks.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 26, 2017, 08:07:10 am
Yep..the Trump lets bomb the crap out of ISIS theory will lead to ISIS going underground and increasing guerilla tactics, they know they cant beat the US in conventional warfare and will step up the terror stuff.

It's a bit concerning reading the reports about how many Ex.Daesh fighters are being let back into countries. If the alleged media figures are correct the count is in the order of several hundred for places like the UK and Australia.

I do not understand why in democracies like Australia and the UK if a credible source has hard proof of a person fighting or training to fight in these regions that their passports can't just be cancelled. An associate tells me it's because politically and tactically we actually want them back under surveillance, in effect we are leaving the door open so we can see what they are up to!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 26, 2017, 11:40:32 am
Interesting report from WaPo that the FBI is focussing on Jared Kushner. 

Of course, his meetings with Russians and his association with a Russian Bank with links to the Kremlin would be of interest, as would be his failure to disclose those meetings on his security and financial declarations.

But one aspect that is being pursued is something I had never heard about.  Kushner was involved in putting together the micro-analytics program which was used by the Trump campaign.  That program enabled the campaign to target small groups of voters who could be persuaded to vote for Trump.  This was apparently of great value in winning the critical states that put Trump over the top.

The FBI wants to know if the Trump campaign provided those analytics to Russia so it could target persuadable voters with pro-Trump and anti-Clinton fake news.

At this stage, that's just a possibility that the FBI wants to investigate and AFAIK there's no evidence that this happened.  But if it did, that would constitute collusion with a foreign power.  It's a fascinating hypothesis that I've never heard before.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on May 26, 2017, 11:46:34 am
Almost all the news was anti Trump.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 26, 2017, 12:08:18 pm
Almost all the news was anti Trump.

That's because he's a c0ckhead.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 26, 2017, 12:08:39 pm
So Trump was entitled to look to Russia to even up the coverage?  Interesting.

The press was having a field day with Comey's announcement that it might reopen the emails investigation.  But remember that fairness does not require the press to be complimentary about Trump half the time.  His campaign received more than its fair share of coverage.  It's also the role of the media to critique the policies he put forward and anything that might suggest a candidate is unfit to be President.

On the other hand, Russia was putting out fake news and disinformation as well as trying to capitalise on the stolen Podesta emails.

One story was that Clinton was associated with a paedophile ring operating from the basement of a Pizza restaurant.  This was supposedly revealed by Wikileaks emails.  It's now known as "Pizzagate" and was pushed by Alex Jones and others.  You'd think that people would be too smart to be sucked in by this.  But some people swallowed it hook, line and sinker.  One armed man stormed the Pizza restaurant and demanded to see the basement where the child sex was happening.  Eventually, he discovered that there was no basement at all and he surrendered to police. 

WaPo reported that:
Quote
Over the next couple of days, the wild accusations against Clinton gradually merged with a new raft of allegations stemming from WikiLeaks’ release of Podesta’s emails. Those emails showed that Podesta occasionally dined at Comet Ping Pong.

On Nov. 7, the hashtag #pizzagate first appeared on Twitter. Over the next several weeks, it would be tweeted and retweeted hundreds or thousands of times each day.

An oddly disproportionate share of the tweets about Pizzagate appear to have come from, of all places, the Czech Republic, Cyprus and Vietnam, said Jonathan Albright, an assistant professor of media analytics at Elon University in North Carolina. In some cases, the most avid retweeters appeared to be bots, programs designed to amplify certain news and information.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/pizzagate-from-rumor-to-hashtag-to-gunfire-in-dc/2016/12/06/4c7def50-bbd4-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html?utm_term=.2ad1b5fc53bf (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/pizzagate-from-rumor-to-hashtag-to-gunfire-in-dc/2016/12/06/4c7def50-bbd4-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html?utm_term=.2ad1b5fc53bf)

Whether the Russians created the story and fed it though right-wing conspiracy theorists isn't known, but it's fair to think the Russians had a hand in whipping up the "story" on social media.

That's the sort of propaganda (together with the Podesta emails Russia stole from Podesta and channelled through Wikileaks) that riled up some Trump voters.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on May 26, 2017, 01:06:50 pm
That's because he's a c0ckhead.

Yeah so I'm not sure how we can blame the media for Trump's. He won because he was up against Hillary.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 26, 2017, 01:22:19 pm
Yeah so I'm not sure how we can blame the media for Trump's. He won because he was up against Hillary.

Whatever issues Hilary has, she is at least a career politician, and someone who would take the job of President seriously. The biggest problem I have with Trump is that it's just a game to him, he doesn't take the office seriously. It means nothing to him, and I'm not sure it ever will.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 26, 2017, 01:35:36 pm
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4-iam7uCI-o/hqdefault.jpg)

I beg to differ Paul.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 26, 2017, 01:38:24 pm
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4-iam7uCI-o/hqdefault.jpg)

I beg to differ Paul.

Yes, clearly I have Trump all wrong.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on May 26, 2017, 02:20:42 pm
The Bern should take put Trump in 2020 if he's still alive.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 26, 2017, 02:29:48 pm
The Bern should take put Trump in 2020 if he's still alive.

He's 75 now. Not sure I want a politician that old, however much I like him. Yes I know its ageist.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Koutz on May 26, 2017, 11:46:44 pm
Whatever issues Hilary has, she is at least a career politician, and someone who would take the job of President seriously. The biggest problem I have with Trump is that it's just a game to him, he doesn't take the office seriously. It means nothing to him, and I'm not sure it ever will.

You are kidding right?

Did you see what was created by the Obama/Hillary administration over the last 8 years???

Change was needed and it came in a big way. Finally the US has a president who isn't bent over by extremists and wants to take them on. The mass immigration crap has killed Europe and it will do the same here if we don't watch out.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 27, 2017, 06:56:38 am
You are kidding right?

Did you see what was created by the Obama/Hillary administration over the last 8 years???

Change was needed and it came in a big way. Finally the US has a president who isn't bent over by extremists and wants to take them on. The mass immigration crap has killed Europe and it will do the same here if we don't watch out.

Your white sheet has clearly shrunk in the wash, and is restricting blood circulation to your frontal lobe.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cimm1979 on May 27, 2017, 09:45:56 am
He's 75 now. Not sure I want a politician that old, however much I like him. Yes I know its ageist.

Yep, the Dems need to find themselves a new candidate who isn't a career polly or who can successfully present themselves as an outsider to the establishment (even though they may have been part of it for decades).

I would have had trouble voting for Hillary but would have just to keep trump out. When I was in the states it was amazing how many Americans voted for him to "shake things up" .

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on May 27, 2017, 07:03:18 pm
Your white sheet has clearly shrunk in the wash, and is restricting blood circulation to your frontal lobe.

That's unkind Paul  ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 27, 2017, 08:57:39 pm
That's unkind Paul  ;)

Yes. It was a bad lapse in judgment which I regret, and it's been on my mind all day. It seems to me that Mr koutz has a simplistic belief that the left is bad and the right is good, and all the world's ills are attributable to the former and it's up to the latter to fix them. That doesn't excuse my post and I apologize for that.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on May 27, 2017, 09:02:33 pm
Yes. It was a bad lapse in judgment which I regret, and it's been on my mind all day. It seems to me that Mr koutz has a simplistic belief that the left is bad and the right is good, and all the world's ills are attributable to the former and it's up to the latter to fix them. That doesn't excuse my post and I apologize for that.

You're a good man Paul ... we need more like you!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: sandsmere on May 28, 2017, 05:57:35 am
You're a good man Paul ... we need more like you!

True.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 28, 2017, 06:43:18 am
Whatever issues Hilary has, she is at least a career politician, and someone who would take the job of President seriously. The biggest problem I have with Trump is that it's just a game to him, he doesn't take the office seriously. It means nothing to him, and I'm not sure it ever will.
Just a little more about this.

It does seem to mean something to Trump, wealth.

Arrange for the office to cost Trump his wealth and he will leave voluntarily!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 01, 2017, 12:47:03 pm
Is it me perceiving something that isn't really there, or are there in fact a fleet of rather wealthy US individuals currently busy divesting themselves of US property?

The pundits with vested interests, mostly property and realty moguls keep telling us there is nothing wrong.

But the super wealthy, people with homes worth tens of million$ seemed to be offloading property at a record rate!

I wonder why, and where is that money going?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on June 01, 2017, 01:52:07 pm
Apparently holding Trump's decapitated head is where the line is drawn for the lunatic left.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: thrunthrublu on June 01, 2017, 11:40:07 pm
Interesting report from WaPo that the FBI is focussing on Jared Kushner. 

Of course, his meetings with Russians and his association with a Russian Bank with links to the Kremlin would be of interest, as would be his failure to disclose those meetings on his security and financial declarations.

But one aspect that is being pursued is something I had never heard about.  Kushner was involved in putting together the micro-analytics program which was used by the Trump campaign.  That program enabled the campaign to target small groups of voters who could be persuaded to vote for Trump.  This was apparently of great value in winning the critical states that put Trump over the top.

The FBI wants to know if the Trump campaign provided those analytics to Russia so it could target persuadable voters with pro-Trump and anti-Clinton fake news.

At this stage, that's just a possibility that the FBI wants to investigate and AFAIK there's no evidence that this happened.  But if it did, that would constitute collusion with a foreign power.  It's a fascinating hypothesis that I've never heard before.

do you work for news.com.au
?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 02, 2017, 09:39:28 am
No - I don't even bother with news.com.au sites. Was it reported on one?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on June 03, 2017, 12:15:08 am
Apparently holding Trump's decapitated head is where the line is drawn for the lunatic left.

I think it draws the line of reasonableness for most humans, especially in light of what the world has been subjected to over the last 5 years.
Making a statement with a politicians or anybodies decapitated head is in incredibly poor judgement and his family in particular should never have been subjected to that.

It is the same way that burning and hanging effigies of Obama was completely out of line.

I don't see has anything to do with the left or the right.
It is idiotic, distasteful groups and individuals that go to disgusting extremes like the one you mention.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Koutz on June 05, 2017, 08:56:26 pm
The silence is deafening from the lefties!   :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 05, 2017, 10:36:34 pm
None is so deaf as he who will not hear ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on June 06, 2017, 09:03:09 am
The silence is deafening from the lefties!   :o

Unfortunately climate change isn't going to distract our attention away from kids being blown up.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on June 06, 2017, 09:14:45 am
The silence is deafening from the lefties!   :o

Who are these lefties you speak of? What are they? ??? Aren't they the ones heavily into social justice/human rights and environmental issues? Then wouldn't they be appalled by any representation of violence to another person? I think MIO put it well.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 06, 2017, 10:52:45 am
Unfortunately climate change isn't going to distract our attention away from kids being blown up.
Or knifed.  Like in Portland, USA.  Did you hear about 2 heroes who were knifed to death on a train by a right-wing extremist simply because they told him to stop bullying 2 Muslim girls?  Strange that Trump doesn't seem to have noticed that one (other than 1 brief tweet).

By the way, wasn't Trump going to simply bomb the sheet out of ISIS?  How's that working?

Thank God for someone like Trump.  Without him, no one would know about ISIS.  It's not as if Obama went after terrorists, is it?  By the way, did you like Zero Dark Thirty?  Wonder if the intelligence community in the US, UK and other Western countries (including Australia) have foiled any terrorist plots over the last decade and a half.  I'd imagine they all just watch TV all day and tweet nonsense like a lying piece of pond scum does all the time.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on June 06, 2017, 10:53:09 am
People have got politics wrong.

Each issue should be measured on its merits.

Some issues need to be dealt with according to one ideology, other issues, need to be dealt with the opposing ideology.  (For arguments sake, left/right).

The thing is, that which way you swing will be dictated more by where society currently sits, and what the better outcome "for now and moving forward" is and some people will argue stubbornly about what is right and wrong, based on a political allegiance, rather than what the correct decision and outcome is, because they lack the critical and analytical thinking to arrive at the appropriate conclusion.

this is why when people say "the looney left, or the Fascist right" I start thinking to myself, why??  Because their idology is different surrounding a subject??  Nature conservationists, can be nationalists and still campaign for Green wedges to remain.  Its called protecting our environment and making responsible decisions for future generations, whilst still achieving good outcomes for both now, and future generations.

this is where politics falls over.  People think they are sports team to support without question and seem to revel in the glory of victory when their chosen ideology has a win.  Its rubbish.  thats how you end up with the extremes in politics which are generally negative in outcome.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 06, 2017, 11:01:08 am
It's only a matter of time until there's a similar sort of incident in the US.  Imagine how Trump will use that to justify trampling democracy and persecuting minorities.  Let's hope the press, Congress and the Courts can stop him from doing so.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on June 06, 2017, 12:03:51 pm
Or knifed.  Like in Portland, USA.  Did you hear about 2 heroes who were knifed to death on a train by a right-wing extremist simply because they told him to stop bullying 2 Muslim girls?  Strange that Trump doesn't seem to have noticed that one (other than 1 brief tweet).

By the way, wasn't Trump going to simply bomb the sheet out of ISIS?  How's that working?

Thank God for someone like Trump.  Without him, no one would know about ISIS.  It's not as if Obama went after terrorists, is it?  By the way, did you like Zero Dark Thirty?  Wonder if the intelligence community in the US, UK and other Western countries (including Australia) have foiled any terrorist plots over the last decade and a half.  I'd imagine they all just watch TV all day and tweet nonsense like a lying piece of pond scum does all the time.

Sharp. Like it. Bulls-eye.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Koutz on June 06, 2017, 12:20:46 pm
Or knifed.  Like in Portland, USA.  Did you hear about 2 heroes who were knifed to death on a train by a right-wing extremist simply because they told him to stop bullying 2 Muslim girls?  Strange that Trump doesn't seem to have noticed that one (other than 1 brief tweet).

By the way, wasn't Trump going to simply bomb the sheet out of ISIS?  How's that working?

Thank God for someone like Trump.  Without him, no one would know about ISIS.  It's not as if Obama went after terrorists, is it?  By the way, did you like Zero Dark Thirty?  Wonder if the intelligence community in the US, UK and other Western countries (including Australia) have foiled any terrorist plots over the last decade and a half.  I'd imagine they all just watch TV all day and tweet nonsense like a lying piece of pond scum does all the time.

Can you imagine the outrage from the left if he bombed the sheet out of them?? He pulls out of an agreement that means absolutely nothing in terms of environmental regulations and the left is talking about the world is ending.... Imagine bombing the middle east???
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Koutz on June 06, 2017, 12:28:52 pm
It's only a matter of time until there's a similar sort of incident in the US.  Imagine how Trump will use that to justify trampling democracy and persecuting minorities.  Let's hope the press, Congress and the Courts can stop him from doing so.

With that mentality the problem will only get bigger. If you wish to live in a country, you live by the laws of the land. Once you disrespect those laws something must be done. By holding hands and singing kumbaya  you achieve sweet f.... all!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 06, 2017, 01:12:50 pm
Can you imagine the outrage from the left if he bombed the sheet out of them?? He pulls out of an agreement that means absolutely nothing in terms of environmental regulations and the left is talking about the world is ending.... Imagine bombing the middle east???
Wow!  "The Left" is very powerful.  Apparently, he won't follow through if "the left" might express outrage.  Bit gutless, isn't it?

By the way, he has already bombed the Middle East and there was no outrage save from Assad and Putin.  But let's not get bogged down in facts.

Funny how Trump didn't even claim the Paris agreement would have no effect on slowing global warming.  He conceded there would be a reduction in temperature albeit a fraction of a degree.  He managed to minimise it by relying on loaded analyses.  But good to see you trumped Trump by going one better - no effect at all.  If only he'd listened to you, his rhetoric would have been much stronger.

Funny how the US military thinks that global warming will have such an impact that it needs to be factored into military threat assessments. Suck $@*# you lefties in the military!

I want to see governments around the world focus on just 1 issue at a time.  Any time spent talking, thinking, or acting on any issue other than Islamic Extremist Terrorism TM means we're not addressing the only issue that matters now.  Forget about health, education, employment, trade, the environment, the Arts, entertainment, and yes, even sports.  Which makes me wonder why Trump spent so much wasted time trying to repeal Obamacare and why he's now turning his attention to infrastructure.  And I also wonder why he spends so much time watching TV and tweeting. 

Let's focus just on Muslims.  If climate change wreaks havoc in the future, we'll deal with it then,  I'm sure there's a suitable planet somewhere just waiting for us.

But you have to love Trump's solution to the Islamic Exremist Terrorism TM problem, though.  He figured out that just by using that phrase, you get rid of the problem.  It's pure genius!  It's just like the concept that if you name a demon, you destroy its power.  Perhaps it might help to add in a few tweets labelling terrorists cowards, whip up some Islamophobia and encorage a mob to make Muslims wish they were Christians.  But you don't need to do anything else.  He's nailed it!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on June 06, 2017, 07:15:17 pm
With that mentality the problem will only get bigger. If you wish to live in a country, you live by the laws of the land. Once you disrespect those laws something must be done. By holding hands and singing kumbaya  you achieve sweet f.... all!

Where have you been Pauline?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on June 06, 2017, 07:26:18 pm
With that mentality the problem will only get bigger. If you wish to live in a country, you live by the laws of the land. Once you disrespect those laws something must be done. By holding hands and singing kumbaya  you achieve sweet f.... all!

Isn't Kumbaya My Lord a Christian song? Damn those far right Fundamental Christians  ;)

Your obsession with the 'left' is getting weird. Have you broken the indicator arm on your car so it can't flash 'left!' Is your definition of the 'left' a group of pacifistic, politically correct, turn the other cheek types? I really am not sure what you regard as a 'leftie'.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on June 06, 2017, 08:30:07 pm
Isn't Kumbaya My Lord a Christian song? Damn those far right Fundamental Christians  ;)

Your obsession with the 'left' is getting weird. Have you broken the indicator arm on your car so it can't flash 'left!' Is your definition of the 'left' a group of pacifistic, politically correct, turn the other cheek types? I really am not sure what you regard as a 'leftie'.

Don't the Hawks prefer lefties?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on June 07, 2017, 10:28:14 am
Where have you been Pauline?

You're a redneck racist if you want our citizens to obey the law?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on June 07, 2017, 10:57:00 am
Don't the Hawks prefer lefties?
:)) :)) :)) And we're getting more lefties into our side as well... does that mean Koutz will tear up his membership? :-[ ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on June 07, 2017, 11:06:22 am
You're a redneck racist if you want our citizens to obey the law?

Doubt it, Old Son. Pretty sure you'll find that lefties, righties, middies, blackies, whities, rainbowies, uppies and downies all want to see our laws obeyed and extremist criminals locked away for longer.  That c0ckhead up the road from us who killed two people (Brighton) should never have been let loose on the streets and if we end up with stricter laws for violent extremist religious types/druggies - good. Ultimately though, it still comes down to disaffected and disenfranchised people attaching themselves to anti-social groups and carrying out these heinous crimes... along with druggies. Humans eh!!! ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 07, 2017, 11:36:14 am
You're a redneck racist if you want our citizens to obey the law?
Maybe you could say what law you're talking about.  Are you saying that terrorist acts should result in Trump or the heads of other governments declaring emergencies and dispensing with legal restraints so "something can be done about it"? Or are you saying that it's fair enough for someone like Trump to harness mob outrage to ram through legislation that kills legal safeguards?  Bizarre if so.  A tiny proportion of the population would then have changed society for the worse.  That's what terrorism seeks to do.  It's strange that Trump seeks to do the same thing as ISIS - sow terror in democratic societies.  Meanwhile, the British, with their considerable experience of confronting terrorism, seek to reassure their citizens and build solidarity.  I prefer the British response.

Just a little heads up: it's not only right-wingers who want laws to be enforced.  Nice try, though.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on June 07, 2017, 11:51:44 am
:)) :)) :)) And we're getting more lefties into our side as well... does that mean Koutz will tear up his membership? :-[ ;)
:))
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on June 07, 2017, 12:24:43 pm
I think you'ré all as bad as each other. ;D

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXgDJXOWAAEyz4d.jpg)



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 07, 2017, 12:43:16 pm
Another informative post.  Bravo!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on June 07, 2017, 12:45:40 pm
I think you'ré all as bad as each other. ;D

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXgDJXOWAAEyz4d.jpg)

Whats that Steelers Wheel (Gerry Rafferty) song - Stuck in the Middle?

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right etc, etc.
 :)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 07, 2017, 12:59:27 pm
I think you'ré all as bad as each other. ;D

Here I am, ........
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on June 07, 2017, 01:02:56 pm
Whats that Steelers Wheel (Gerry Rafferty) song - Stuck in the Middle?

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right etc, etc.
 :)

Yep :D
"...stuck in the middle with you" ;)

[flash=200,200]https://www.youtube.com/v/DohRa9lsx0Q[/flash]
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 07, 2017, 01:08:03 pm
The middle of a One Nation rally?  ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 07, 2017, 01:15:15 pm
The middle of a One Nation rally?  ;D

Pauline on the left of me, James on the right!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on June 07, 2017, 02:02:57 pm
The middle of a One Nation rally?  ;D

Ironically....That's Trump thinkin' ;D

"If you're not with me totally, you're against me" ::)  :(

That's a shame.
I share many of your concerns about Trump.
I just don't view him through the "Hate Goggles."  ;)



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 07, 2017, 02:30:35 pm
Can't you take a joke?

I just built on yours.  You didn't see me whining about being called a jester or a clown, or complaining about you trying to throw a blanket over Koutz and me to justify dismissing my views.  You might not have noticed that Koutz also tries such dismissive tactics whereas I try to articulate my views to foster debate.  But I love your audacity in trying to paint yourself as occupying the sensible centre.  You should have been in PR  ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on June 07, 2017, 03:20:24 pm
Can't you take a joke?

I just built on yours. You didn't see me whining about being called a jester or a clown, or complaining about you trying to throw a blanket over Koutz and me to justify dismissing my views. You might not have noticed that Koutz also tries such dismissive tactics whereas I try to articulate my views to foster debate.  But I love your audacity in trying to paint yourself as occupying the sensible centre.  You should have been in PR  ;)

No, you plonked me in the middle of a One Nation rally... where I felt most uncomfortable. ;D

Sorry
I thought the emoticons conveyed that I wasn't too concerned.

As I've said I largely agree with most of what you write but I suspect we do see Trump in different degrees.

I'm seeing Trump's efforts so far as buffoonish and amateur, but I'm also seeing a bit of an hysterical over-reaction to his ascendancy and questioning of his legitimacy from his opponents that has been apparent even before he took office.

The end result now seems to be a government in paralysis.
But I'm not overly concerned because things will sort themselves out..and I'm not overly concerned about Trump because the checks and balances built into the American system will keep him in line.
We're nearly an eighth of the way through his term and we're still spinning around.

I actually do see myself as very much in the middle of the political spectrum.
My voting at a local level has been pretty much divided over the years.
I followed and admired Obama "before he was a superstar."
I would have preferred Hilary over Trump...but she was weighed, measured and found wanting.
Not all her own fault...but she does have significant responsibility as does her party.
That she couldn't wipe the floor with a candidate as flawed as Trump is a condemnation.

The more you move away from the middle on either side the more 'hate' becomes a factor and if you hate the individual or idea then it does impact on your thinking.

While some individuals and ideas are worthy of condemnation there must also be an understanding of the reasons and causes behind them other than that's just "leftist rubbish" or "redneck thinking."




Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on June 07, 2017, 03:45:31 pm
What a relief, the islamic council have announced that it wasn't a terrorist attack in Brighton. Our police have nothing to fear.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on June 07, 2017, 04:15:24 pm
No, you plonked me in the middle of a One Nation rally... where I felt most uncomfortable. ;D

Sorry
I thought the emoticons conveyed that I wasn't too concerned.

As I've said I largely agree with most of what you write but I suspect we do see Trump in different degrees.

I'm seeing Trump's efforts so far as buffoonish and amateur, but I'm also seeing a bit of an hysterical over-reaction to his ascendancy and questioning of his legitimacy from his opponents that has been apparent even before he took office.

The end result now seems to be a government in paralysis.
But I'm not overly concerned because things will sort themselves out..and I'm not overly concerned about Trump because the checks and balances built into the American system will keep him in line.
We're nearly an eighth of the way through his term and we're still spinning around.

I actually do see myself as very much in the middle of the political spectrum.
My voting at a local level has been pretty much divided over the years.
I followed and admired Obama "before he was a superstar."
I would have preferred Hilary over Trump...but she was weighed, measured and found wanting.
Not all her own fault...but she does have significant responsibility as does her party.
That she couldn't wipe the floor with a candidate as flawed as Trump is a condemnation.

The more you move away from the middle on either side the more 'hate' becomes a factor and if you hate the individual or idea then it does impact on your thinking.

While some individuals and ideas are worthy of condemnation there must also be an understanding of the reasons and causes behind them other than that's just "leftist rubbish" or "redneck thinking."

Finally, someone who understands exactly what I have been trying to state for a while.

The one thing I will state one thing to add.

The more you move over to one side of the spectrum, the more in common you have with someone at the other end of spectrum but driven by different ideologies.



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 07, 2017, 04:28:00 pm
Lods, I just knew there was a rational debater inside you waiting to get out ;D

For me, I was always pessimistic that Trump would pivot and act presidential.  I also thought he didn't have the character and temperament to do the job.  But I wanted to be pleasantly surprised.  Unfortunately, my worst fears have been confirmed, if not exceeded. 

I didn't reflexively condemn the missile attack on the Syrian airfield and the liberal press didn't either.

If he'd made some decent appointments and left them to do their jobs properly, the criticism would have abated.  But he hasn't.  He has appointed a climate change denier and enemy of the EPA to head the EPA.  Then he allowed that guy, Pruitt, and Bannon to push him into walking away from the Paris accord.  He appointed General McMaster as National Security Advisor - a good pick after he made a disastrous one with Flynn.  But he certainly hasn't deferred to him.  For instance, McMaster was reportedly pressuring Trump to reaffirm the US commitment to Article 5 of the NATO treaty but Bannon was working to remove it.

I will post more later but I have to shoot.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: malo on June 07, 2017, 04:28:36 pm
Finally, someone who understands exactly what I have been trying to state for a while.

The one thing I will state one thing to add.

The more you move over to one side of the spectrum, the more in common you have with someone at the other end of spectrum but driven by different ideologies.

Haven't bothered with getting involved with this topic deliberately......but that last line Thry.....that is almost a perfect summary in that one line.

The difference between a Socialist Dictator & Facist dictator is .......well, absolutely nothing to those oppressed in such a regime.  They are all victims.

Mal.



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 07, 2017, 04:38:16 pm
Finally, someone who understands exactly what I have been trying to state for a while.

The one thing I will state one thing to add.

The more you move over to one side of the spectrum, the more in common you have with someone at the other end of spectrum but driven by different ideologies.

I was thinking this exact thing the other night while my wife watched The Project, this is exactly why that show has lost it's viewers. It was OK when first started, now it's almost radicalised, the views/editorials offered are ultimately extreme!

There are similar examples on the ABC and all commercial free-to-air stations.

FWIW, it's also how I categorise someone like Andrew Bolt!

They have become what they despise, yet they are oblivious to that fact!

For Trump, he's always said he could shot someone dead in the street and just walk away. His idea of freedom is not mine, Trump's idea of freedom is closer to the Jihadist version!

What about those nuffies on the news using the Brighton siege as a political platform to call for the re-arming of Australia's citizens. Like they have some crystal ball to tell them who's good and who's bad! Feckwits!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on June 07, 2017, 08:39:43 pm
Haven't bothered with getting involved with this topic deliberately......but that last line Thry.....that is almost a perfect summary in that one line.

The difference between a Socialist Dictator & Facist dictator is .......well, absolutely nothing to those oppressed in such a regime.  They are all victims.

Mal.

Bingo! The difference between the far left and the far right - the spelling.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on June 07, 2017, 11:25:43 pm
What a relief, the islamic council have announced that it wasn't a terrorist attack in Brighton. Our police have nothing to fear.

Yes, when the perpetrator claims to be acting for both ISIL and Al Qaeda there's a fair chance that they're just a drug crazed psychopath.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on June 08, 2017, 06:53:04 am
If you commit an act of terror you're a terrorist.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on June 08, 2017, 08:26:39 am
If you commit an act of terror you're a terrorist.

Is murdering someone and taking a hostage an act of terror?  It seems to happen fairly often, unfortunately.

Is the nutter who killed the people in the CBD a terrorist?  Is the Port Arthur shooter a terrorist or mass murderer?

There's no generally accepted definition of terrorist or terrorism but there is some consensus that it has to be politically motivated.  For example, the anti-abortion murders and kidnappings perpetrated in the USA, Canada and Australia are recognised as acts of Christian terrorists.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on June 08, 2017, 08:47:47 am
He was part of a group that was charged for planning an attack on an army base in Sydney a few years ago.
His plan the other day was to lure in special ops officers so he could kill them.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on June 08, 2017, 12:18:01 pm
He was part of a group that was charged for planning an attack on an army base in Sydney a few years ago.
His plan the other day was to lure in special ops officers so he could kill them.

He was exonerated of the Holdsworthy charges (one of my army homes!).

Perhaps he simply has a hatred of police, like so many violent criminals ...

I think he probably is a terrorist, but it's not cut and dried.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on June 08, 2017, 12:27:18 pm
Sorry, MBB but DJC is 100% correct. He's explaining this to you using facts/logic/reason and not media hysteria/hype. Mate, don't buy into the media/political hysterics. In those famous words, 'If you don't listen to the media you'll be uninformed, if you do listen to the media you'll be misinformed.' (I interpret that as mainstream media, for accuracy of information we really have to dig and watch/listen to non-commercial / unbiased reporting).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on June 08, 2017, 12:54:06 pm
http://theantimedia.org/qatar-crisis-natural-gas-terrorism/

Im not going to pretend that the media are honest/dishonest.

Its probably that they are being used as tools to misinform and shape public interest for other political aims.

I tend to prefer things as the media being the 3 ringed circus.  Designed specifically to misinform, distract and shape public opinion, promote political gains that result in the population being dumb enough to control, and not ask the hard questions.

Read through this link.  It provides a better backdrop to why there are so many issues in this area, and from what I can understand it all goes back the same reasons why wars have always, and will always be fought. 

$$$$$$$$$$$ and Power.

People like to blame the evils of religion for mans evils, but the reality is, that the unscrupulous seek only fiscal reward, monetary gain, and will use any excuse in the book to say that its about something else, and people like to believe they are enlightened and buy these lies hook, line and sinker.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 08, 2017, 01:43:59 pm
He was exonerated of the Holdsworthy charges (one of my army homes!).

I hate that word exonerated, because it's used in the media context that implies no involvement or that the charges were fanciful.

But generally in Australia as I understand things it means someone who was initially found guilty had the decision reversed on some grounds by a higher court, often that is a technicality such as a breach of procedure by investigators or tainted evidence.

In that respect it's different from being acquitted, which as I understand is generally a not guilty finding in the first instance.

The public perception of those terms is often the reverse because exoneration is often associated with fraudulent accusations or evidence discovered after a conviction!

It's miles away from suggesting somebody wasn't involved, or that the charges were fraudulent, wrong or fanciful.

Maybe Mav can clarify.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on June 08, 2017, 02:43:47 pm
I hate that word exonerated, because it's used in the media context that implies no involvement or that the charges were fanciful.

But generally in Australia as I understand things it means someone who was initially found guilty had the decision reversed on some grounds by a higher court, often that is a technicality such as a breach of procedure by investigators or tainted evidence.

In that respect it's different from being acquitted, which as I understand is generally a not guilty finding in the first instance.

The public perception of those terms is often the reverse because exoneration is often associated with fraudulent accusations or evidence discovered after a conviction!

It's miles away from suggesting somebody wasn't involved, or that the charges were fraudulent, wrong or fanciful.

Maybe Mav can clarify.

Yes LP, poor choice of words on my part.

I didn't bother looking up the court reports and don't know whether the charges were dropped or whether he was found not guilty.  However, he certainly wasn't exonerated.

By the way, I refuse to refer to any of these terrorists, murderers, rapists, etc by name.  Treating them as anonymous figures doesn't increase their notoriety.  I do the same with the current POTUS.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 08, 2017, 03:05:10 pm
By the way, I refuse to refer to any of these terrorists, murderers, rapists, etc by name.  Treating them as anonymous figures doesn't increase their notoriety.  I do the same with the current POTUS.

Agreed, we should not report their names, acts, associates, supporters or defenders.

The terrorists should never be buried, their bodies should be donated to science for dissection and training.

We should have the victims as front page news and give them all state funerals.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on June 08, 2017, 03:11:18 pm
Agreed, we should not report their names, acts, associates, supporters or defenders.

The terrorists should never be buried, their bodies should be donated to science for dissection and training.

We should have the victims as front page news and give them all state funerals.

I understand that 200 UK Imams refused to perform the Islamic funeral ceremony for the London terrorists.  
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 08, 2017, 03:50:41 pm
I understand that 200 UK Imams refused to perform the Islamic funeral ceremony for the London terrorists.

The crime would be that they were even asked!

But anyway, that is a religion specific issue, I'm not discriminating between terrorists of different religions. I don't want any remnant of them to become some future shrine for copy cat nutters, no grave site, no ashes, no urns, no trace!

They are just a bunch of lunatic losers, with no penis, who are erased!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: thrunthrublu on June 08, 2017, 04:51:49 pm
40 pages on meaningless banter from people that have opposing views on political appointments, differing policy, choice of leaders, senates, congress, terrorism, evening the meaning of terrorism.
The effeminacy of discourse that people here think you have a choice nauseates me. England votes today and if you're British, from Britain, i feel sorry for the choices put in front of you, as it seems, sooner rather than later, the west is going to have to bail you out for a 3rd time.
We live in Low trust societies perpetuated by ideals of malfeasance to protect career criminals in maintaining control through their support funding. What will evolve, will ultimately not be shaped or changed by  political computer aficionados, otherwise know as "hackers"  or hacks. It will be changed by people in the street and currently , they are running amok in Britain
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: hanwell on June 08, 2017, 05:22:29 pm
Haven't bothered with getting involved with this topic deliberately......but that last line Thry.....that is almost a perfect summary in that one line.

The difference between a Socialist Dictator & Facist dictator is .......well, absolutely nothing to those oppressed in such a regime.  They are all victims.

Mal.
Was explaining the meaning of "facist" this afternoon to my dear wife, and found myself perplexed in trying to differentiate between Mussolini and Stalin. Mal completely nailed it, and whilst I am on this thread for the first time how is the Iranian irony in blaming the US and the Saudi's for the attack yesterday, even though Daesh has put their hand up for it...
If you want a laugh, check out "Godlike Productions", half of them love the Donald, the other half want him topped. They all hated Hilary, cant blame them personally, right sex wrong person....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on June 08, 2017, 05:38:20 pm
40 pages on meaningless banter from people that have opposing views on political appointments, differing policy, choice of leaders, senates, congress, terrorism, evening the meaning of terrorism.
The effeminacy of discourse that people here think you have a choice nauseates me. England votes today and if you're British, from Britain, i feel sorry for the choices put in front of you, as it seems, sooner rather than later, the west is going to have to bail you out for a 3rd time.
We live in Low trust societies perpetuated by ideals of malfeasance to protect career criminals in maintaining control through their support funding. What will evolve, will ultimately not be shaped or changed by  political computer aficionados, otherwise know as "hackers"  or hacks. It will be changed by people in the street and currently , they are running amok in Britain

Say what?  :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on June 08, 2017, 05:44:23 pm
Say what?  :o

Sounds a bit sexist :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: sandsmere on June 08, 2017, 07:43:12 pm
I agree about the 40 pages of meaningless banter.

If the democrats had come up with a realistic candidate they would have crap it in.

But, Hilary Clinton ???????.

Bloody hell.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on June 08, 2017, 09:47:22 pm
40 pages on meaningless banter from people that have opposing views on political appointments, differing policy, choice of leaders, senates, congress, terrorism, evening the meaning of terrorism.
The effeminacy of discourse that people here think you have a choice nauseates me. England votes today and if you're British, from Britain, i feel sorry for the choices put in front of you, as it seems, sooner rather than later, the west is going to have to bail you out for a 3rd time.
We live in Low trust societies perpetuated by ideals of malfeasance to protect career criminals in maintaining control through their support funding. What will evolve, will ultimately not be shaped or changed by  political computer aficionados, otherwise know as "hackers"  or hacks. It will be changed by people in the street and currently , they are running amok in Britain

I'll have you know that when I contributed to this thread I was drinking tea from a very manly and dirty cup, wearing hessian undies and undergoing dental surgery without anaesthetic. No effeminacy here...  ;) ;) ...spit... growl... ;D :P
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: laj on June 08, 2017, 09:53:18 pm
I agree about the 40 pages of meaningless banter.

If the democrats had come up with a realistic candidate they would have crap it in.

But, Hilary Clinton ???????.

Bloody hell.

Even then she got 3 million more votes.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on June 08, 2017, 10:04:58 pm
Even then she got 3 million more votes.

That's not how it works and nor should it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on June 09, 2017, 07:07:18 am
Quote
Premier Daniel Andrews has confirmed the anti-terror raids in Melbourne this morning are connected to the Brighton siege on Monday.

"A number of warrants are bing executed in Melbourne as we speak," he told Sky News.

"We are obviously limited in what we can say. We don't want to put any of our operational staff in harm's way."

He said the raids were in "connection with the terrible, tragic events of Monday in Brighton".

The Premier is in Hobart for a COAG meeting between the states and the federal government. Tighter parole laws have been flagged for discussion at the meeting.

"Terror is not half a world away, there are very real threats in communities right across our nation," he said.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 09, 2017, 07:59:11 am
I'll have you know that when I contributed to this thread I was drinking tea from a very manly and dirty cup, wearing hessian undies and undergoing dental surgery without anaesthetic. No effeminacy here...  ;) ;) ...spit... growl... ;D :P

Exactly, I'm a lumberjack...............and I'm OK!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 09, 2017, 12:34:03 pm
No wonder the U.K. gave us Monty Python ;D

The practice of lining up the candidates behind the returning officer when s/he announces the results is surreal.

Jeremy Corbyn gave his victory speech with the candidate from the Official Monster Raving Loony Party candidate shown by the camera over Corbyn's left shoulder - a guy who looked like Billy Connolly in a big top hat with a big yellow hatband.

Teresa May shared the stage with Lord Buckethead, an Intergalactic Space Lord, who wore a very tall hat which went right down to his shoulders and covered his face, a man in an Elmo costume, and the Official Monster Raving Loony Party candidate in a white cowboy outfit.  Another candidate complimented Mr Fishfinger on his campaign, a guy who was standing just behind him in a fishfinger costume.

Very bizarre  ;D
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DB2G754XYAEoIoK?format=jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DB2Gz8lXoAAEKAF?format=jpg)
(http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article10589262.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/Tim-Farron-leader-of-Britains-Liberal-Democrat-Party-speaks-at-a-counting-centre-during-Britains.jpg)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on June 09, 2017, 04:49:58 pm
Exactly, I'm a lumberjack...............and I'm OK!
:)) :)) :)) Glad you're okay Spotted One... I was about to ask... ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on June 09, 2017, 04:57:52 pm
Interesting result in Britain following the French election.
Has Trump been doing a bit of a service to a more moderate way of thinking with his antics?
 
Would the Brexit result be the same today?
The UKIP party copped a walloping
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on June 09, 2017, 06:59:28 pm
It was interesting a few parties were slaughtered today. SNP lost a third of their seats (21) , Lib Dem got some back, 2 NI parties (UUP & DSLP) lost all their seats in Ireland, so now there are 2 parties with 17 seats there and 1 independent.

I think the Conservatives will run a minority government rather than go back to the polls. It could have been much much worse May's team if they had not picked up so many seats in Scotland, as they lost about 25 seats I believe in England, but Scotland helped ease that pain.

What I find so strange is the Labour party whooping it up, calling for May to resign (which I think she likely will, as this was a big error by her), acting like they had one. I can't see it likely that they are going to get the seats to run the government especially as the Lib Dem have ruled out a coalition with either party.

I will be very surprised if May is still the PM in about 12 hours time.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 09, 2017, 08:26:53 pm
I don't think bode well for the UK, the nutters will be a chance to get control by having minorities wield the balance of power.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on June 10, 2017, 01:24:42 am
So she has stated she will form a government with the DUP, which was another the only other realistic option on the cards, but it weakens their position considerably. I still think she is going to find herself under immense pressure from her colleagues who have woken up to a new world and finding themselves why they unnecessarily went to the polls at this time.

May thought she had a position of strength and was confident the time was right, Corbyn was not well liked and ex-labour politicians felt he was not electable. So she considered this a good time to grab a bigger mandate and that it would be a walk in the park.

Her arrogance means she reaped what what she sowed. They fell 8 short of an absolute majority, but in reality it was actually more like 4 short because Sinn Fein never take their seats in the House of Commons and had stated again before this election that they would not take their seats "regardless of the arithmetic", taken to mean that even if they had a chance to form or a coalition (reasonably sure that absolutely no party would in any case) or to ensure voting against all proposals to ensure they were blocked they would not be taking part. Of course it is important to remember that Sinn Fein is the IRA in suits.

Well it looks like she will last her 12 hours, but it will be interesting to see how long she actually does last. I did read if she does go she will be the shortest serving PM for 94 years, so at least she has that legacy to fall back on  :)




Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 13, 2017, 12:53:19 pm
No doubt most of us have had the experience of dealing with a kid who just can't be told. "Don't touch that" seems to confer on that object a magnetic force which draws the hand irresistibly towards it. 

Trump is that kid.  Washington is now agog at rumours that Trump wants to sack the special prosecutor, Mueller, who is investigating, among other things, whether Trump obstructed justice by sacking Comey who was in turn investigating Trump's associates. One of his friends has revealed that he has warned Trump this would be a mistake.  This while there seems to be a campaign led by GOP politicians and figures, such as Rush Limbaugh, to discredit Mueller and his investigation.

Trump can't sack Mueller directly.  But he can order the Attorney-General to do so.  Jeff Sessions, however, has recused himself from anything involving the Russia investigation.  That didn't stop him from getting involved in sacking Comey, but sacking Mueller would make his recusal a massive joke.  If he does defer to the Deputy A/G, Rob Rosenstein, Rosenstein may refuse to obey Trump's order or, more likely, he would resign rather than obey it.  The next in line would then face the same decision.

This could create another comparison to Watergate as Nixon's order to sack the Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox led to "The Saturday Night Massacre" in which a string of A/G figures resigned. 

I'm sure many people have pleaded with Trump to let the investigation go.  After all, it may well determine that Trump isn't guilty of anything.  But like the impulsive kid who is told to stay away, that advice seems to impel him to do it anyway.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 14, 2017, 02:15:50 pm
Looks like that was a trial balloon and as it was shot down under heavy fire Sarah Huckabee-Sanders says that Trump isn't intending to fire Mueller.  No comment regarding whether he has been considering it recently.

No doubt the Deputy A/G's testimony before Congress that he would not obey any order to sack Mueller unless good cause could be proven would have helped Trump make up his mind.

One theory is that his friend floated the trial balloon on his own initiative (as he claims was the case) to show Trump that he would be in for a world of trouble if he did pull another Comey-like surprise.  He tends to shoot first and then ask questions later.  This way, all the questions were asked and answered before he pulled the trigger.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2017, 10:50:09 am
Big news event - a 66 yo white guy shot 5 at a GOP baseball practice in Virginia.  He was armed with a semi-automatic rifle.

The GOP House Whip is in critical condition.

Thankfully, the shooter wasn't a Muslim. That wasn't the case, but the shooter was a rabid Bernie Sanders supporter who hated not only Trump and the GOP but also Hillary Clinton. 

One of Trump's sons tweeted that the blame lay with  Kathy Griffen and a NY theatre rendition of Julius Caesar in which Trump is used In the title role.  He was immediately attacked for trying to politicise an attack against GOP representatives rather than Trump.

Trump will be met with accusations of hypocrisy if he complains that anti-Trump rhetoric might cause nutters to attempt political assassinations.  When he was invited to speak at an NRA rally during the campaign, he warned that Clinton would appoint Supreme Court Judges who would take away their guns.  He told them that if she won the election, no one could stop her.  He then went on and snidely suggested that maybe "2nd-amendment people could stop her".  He was condemned for floating what appeared to be assassination as a remedy.

There is also the case of the shooter who stormed a Pizza parlour armed with an assault rifle after he swallowed the fake news from far right online media that a paedophile ring linked to Clinton held abused kids in its basement.  He fired a shot in the crowded pizza shop and demanded to see the basement.  He then discovered there was no basement at all.  He's being sentenced shortly and the prosecution is seeking a 45 year sentence.

Then there was the case of Gabby Giffords, a Democrat congresswoman who was shot in the head at a public event after the GOP ran ads which put a target on her.  The GOP denied that those ads had anything to do with the assassination attempt.

Remember also that a British Labour MP and advocate of Britain remaining in the EU was assassinated during the Brexit campaign.

No doubt any attack on politicians should be roundly condemned by all.  As should be any attempt to politicise those attacks.  I hope Trump won't repeat his son's mistake.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on June 15, 2017, 12:00:09 pm
Three aspects involved...
The "lax control of guns", the "politics of hate on both sides" and nutters putting the two together.
Hopefully the response from this incident from both sides will be "We have to tone it down a bit."

In the meantime the Washington Post is reporting that the special counsel may now be investigating the president for possible obstruction of justice.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/special-counsel-is-investigating-trump-for-possible-obstruction-of-justice/2017/06/14/9ce02506-5131-11e7-b064-828ba60fbb98_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-banner-low_trumpmueller625pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.565040623b3b

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2017, 12:27:01 pm
Maybe Trump will tone down the incendiary rhetoric?  Don't hold your breath.  Remember when Melania Trump said she wanted to do something about online bullying?  That didn't change Trump's behaviour.  Maybe it was fortunate for Hillary that she lost.  After all of the "Lock her up!" chants, labelling her as a criminal and a liar and suggestions that the 2nd amendment people might do something about her, how many right-wing wingnuts would have gone after her if she'd won?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on June 15, 2017, 12:52:34 pm
Maybe Trump will tone down the incendiary rhetoric?  Don't hold your breath.  Remember when Melania Trump said she wanted to do something about online bullying?  That didn't change Trump's behaviour.  Maybe it was fortunate for Hillary that she lost.  After all of the "Lock her up!" chants, labelling her as a criminal and a liar and suggestions that the 2nd amendment people might do something about her, how many right-wing wingnuts would have gone after her if she'd won?

But that's the whole point.
We know what we have with Trump.
He won't change.
Is the best way to deal with him to fight the battle at his level?
It might make folk feel good, but they'll be fighting on his turf.

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

He'll come unstuck by himself eventually...and watch his Republican support dry up.
It's only there as a thin veneer.


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on June 15, 2017, 01:06:05 pm
But that's the whole point.
We know what we have with Trump.
He won't change.
Is the best way to deal with him to fight the battle at his level?
It might make folk feel good, but they'll be fighting on his turf.

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

He'll come unstuck by himself eventually...and watch his Republican support dry up.
It's only there as a thin veneer.


So true. Good stuff. You do, however, need to keep him under pressure. Narcissists can't handle accountability/being exposed/wrong/not getting their own way. Stand at his pen with a powerful water hose and give him a burst from time to time.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on June 15, 2017, 01:26:24 pm
So true. Good stuff. You do, however, need to keep him under pressure. Narcissists can't handle accountability/being exposed/wrong/not getting their own way. Stand at his pen with a powerful water hose and give him a burst from time to time.

No doubt!
And there are plenty of legislative and judicial options to maintain that pressure.
Attack the words and policies and not so much the individual.
There is no shortage of material.
But do it in a rational, measured, non-hysterical way.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2017, 04:17:33 pm
No doubt!
And there are plenty of legislative and judicial options to maintain that pressure.
Attack the words and policies and not so much the individual.
There is no shortage of material.
But do it in a rational, measured, non-hysterical way.
And doing so will draw an over-the-top response which will then draw comment that both sides are as bad as each other  ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on June 15, 2017, 04:55:26 pm
And doing so will draw an over-the-top response which will then draw comment that both sides are as bad as each other  ::)

That doesn't make a lot of sense. ???
Play a straight bat at him and let him rant and rave.
Let him burn himself.
It will be much more productive, because at the moment what's happening is the personal attacks on him are giving him energy.
The "combative" is his style and it's easier for him to cloud a situation.

Folk who aren't sure either way look at Trump and think "He might be bad, but he's not getting much of a go."
Take away the.... "but he's not getting much of a go" and we just have "he might be  bad."

Look back at our comments in the pre-election thread.
We're not arguing over his merits.
We're arguing over the way to tackle him and see him off.





Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2017, 05:27:19 pm
It does make a lot of sense.  "Playing a straight bat" doesn't, though.  What doesn't it even mean in this context?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on June 15, 2017, 06:20:02 pm
It does make a lot of sense.  "Playing a straight bat" doesn't, though.  What doesn't it even mean in this context?

It means you let the checks and balances inbuilt in the system take care of Trump.
You don't raise a level of hate and hysteria against the individual but you work to tone that down and work against him with reasoned logic and argument.

If you adopt this approach any over-reaction on his part clearly draws a line between him and his opponents

Some folk are working against him in that respect and slowly but surely it will do the job.
Others have gone off half cocked  (Arts, academia, politicians) and they're the ones that are being counter productive.





 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on June 15, 2017, 06:26:09 pm
The problem is Lods, I think that was tried at different times in both the presidential election and in the party nomination process and didn't work. At times there was the hysteria about how bad he was and I seem to remember a dismissive tone adopted by Hilary and some Republicans at times also.

I think the reason for the prodding is there is a large section of the US that sees the need to get him out of power as soon as is possible.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on June 15, 2017, 06:38:32 pm
The problem is Lods, I think that was tried at different times in both the presidential election and in the party nomination process and didn't work. At times there was the hysteria about how bad he was and I seem to remember a dismissive tone adopted by Hilary and some Republicans at times also.

I think the reason for the prodding is there is a large section of the US that sees the need to get him out of power as soon as is possible.

Reality has struck though hasn't it.
He's here!

The problem with "Doing him quickly" rather than letting the nation realise he was done fairly and legitimately is the division it will cause.
He needs to be done fairly and transparently with there being no question he deserved to go.... otherwise it sets a precedent that could bounce back on any future President.
I'm confident the processes are in play.


In the meantime

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2017/06/15/14/18/malcolm-turnbull-impersonates-donald-trump-in-leaked-audio
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on June 15, 2017, 09:05:38 pm
That is a shocker by Turnbull.
Funny, but not acceptable.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on June 15, 2017, 09:08:24 pm
That is a shocker by Turnbull.
Funny, but not acceptable.

It'll be viral by this time tomorrow.
Fox and CNN already have reports on it up on their websites
Bets on who goes first Trump or Turnbull ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 15, 2017, 09:30:42 pm
It'll be viral by this time tomorrow.
Fox and CNN already have reports on it up on their websites
Bets on who goes first Trump or Turnbull ;D

I don't see a problem with it!

The thing that disturbs me mostly is the breach of trust that has come out of the winter ball, that is meant to be a no holds barred piss take of politics, political media, bureaucrats and commentators for the purposes of raising money for a number of charities. The politicians take the charity seriously, but he night is meant to be light hearted and they piss-take themselves every bit as much as any body else who has a profile in politics or political commentary.

I'm mean Trump had his wife repeat Michelle Obama's speech word for word just to take the piss out of the media! The modern media didn't get it, primarily because it's now full of unqualified unprofessional cheap-as-chips syndicated bloggers rather than the very expensive career journalists that Murdoch replaced!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on June 15, 2017, 09:43:47 pm
The issue is how it is perceived. It already has traction in the UK also.
I agree it should never have been leaked, it could not have been considered to be in the best interests of Australia and it was a pretty average thing to do  (and I don't even like Liberals).

Will be very interesting to see the fall out, but traditionally Trump doesn't take too well to mocking, he tends to get a bit sulky, just ask Alec Baldwin
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on June 15, 2017, 09:49:33 pm
It's a problem for Turnbull because of the initial phone conversation he had with Trump.
Then the visit that papered over the cracks.
In that light it will be highlighted as Turnbull revealing his true feelings towards Trump.
...and it's the media that will dictate how the story will be handled.
Most major news outlets have now picked it up.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 15, 2017, 09:59:44 pm
The issue is how it is perceived. It already has traction in the UK also.
I agree it should never have been leaked, it could not have been considered to be in the best interests of Australia and it was a pretty average thing to do  (and I don't even like Liberals).

Will be very interesting to see the fall out, but traditionally Trump doesn't take too well to mocking, he tends to get a bit sulky, just ask Alec Baldwin

It's normal for the US Ambassador to be at the Winter Ball, so Trump will have first-hand feedback available if he wants it!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 15, 2017, 10:17:01 pm
It means you let the checks and balances inbuilt in the system take care of Trump.
You don't raise a level of hate and hysteria against the individual but you work to tone that down and work against him with reasoned logic and argument.

If you adopt this approach any over-reaction on his part clearly draws a line between him and his opponents

Some folk are working against him in that respect and slowly but surely it will do the job.
Others have gone off half cocked  (Arts, academia, politicians) and they're the ones that are being counter productive.
You sound like Jeb Bush naïvely thinking that decency would be all he needed to deflate Trump.

I don't share your optimism that the checks and balances in the system will do the job.  Trump clearly wishes to neutralise them and rule by fiat.  That's why today's news about the Mueller investigation is so sensational.  Imagine a President trying to kill an investigation into his campaign associates by sacking an FBI Director.

Trump deliberately thumbed his nose at conventions surrounding the relationship between the FBI Director and the President.  As Comey noted, Obama contacted him only once apart from saying a quick goodbye last year.  Trump initiated a series of meetings at which he demanded personal loyalty.  That is incredibly inappropriate and weakens the independence of law enforcement.  That is just the tip of the iceberg.  At his first cabinet meeting, he acted like a dictator accepting compliments from sycophantic underlings.

We like to imagine that our systems of government are foolproof and we have become so sophisticated that we wouldn't allow someone to bring them down.  But that's a conceit.  if that concern is seen as hysterical, so be it.  But don't tell me that Trump is behaving with anything like the ethical integrity of Obama and he's just being painted in a harsh light.  Mueller doesn't appear to think so at least.

Some GOP figures are trying to blame "caustic rhetoric" from Dems for the shooting.  Nice try.  Remember that the Democrats don't control either the House of Reps or the Senate.  What worries the GOP most is the heat the GOP is taking over the attempt to repeal Obamacare.  Republicans enjoyed Town Hall meetings leading up to the 2010 elections as the Tea Party ran amok, electrified by the passage of Obamacare.  The GOP loved the pressure exerted on the Democrats through those meetings.  But now that Republicans who face the voters in 2018 are experiencing passionate opposition at their Town Hall meetings, they are mostly refusing to hold any.  They trot out the usual line that the passionate opposition just comes from paid protesters rather than accepting that this is democracy at work.  Of course, they huff and puff when the passion at the meetings is compared to the passion of the Tea Party.  Without any proof, they claim the former is simply manufactured while the latter was a real reflection of the concerns of the people.

Peaceful protest isn't caustic rhetoric and is at the heart of true democracy.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on June 15, 2017, 11:27:58 pm
You sound like Jeb Bush naïvely thinking that decency would be all he needed to deflate Trump.

I don't share your optimism that the checks and balances in the system will do the job.  Trump clearly wishes to neutralise them and rule by fiat.  That's why today's news about the Mueller investigation is so sensational.  Imagine a President trying to kill an investigation into his campaign associates by sacking an FBI Director.

We'll have to agree to disagree....and down the track one of us will be right and one of us will be wrong.
I tend to think that when Trump is finally removed it will be through a proper process of the system working as it was intended.

Quote
"Peaceful protest isn't caustic rhetoric and is at the heart of true democracy."
I thought that's what I was advocating.

My problem is with hysterical hate filled comments and that applies to both sides.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on June 16, 2017, 12:58:19 am
Quote
Former FBI Director James Comey met with the Senate Intelligence Committee in multiple private sessions in which he detailed Loretta Lynch's reaction of silence to his evidence from the FBI investigation into Hillary Clinton's private email server.

Comey met with the committee multiple times over the last couple months and detailed an encounter with Lynch, who served as former President Barack Obama's attorney general, shortly before Clinton's email probe was shut down, Circa reported.

Comey told lawmakers in the close door session that he raised his concern with the attorney general that she had created a conflict of interest by meeting with Clinton’s husband, the former President Bill Clinton, on an airport tarmac while the investigation was ongoing.

During the conversation, Comey told lawmakers he confronted Lynch with a highly sensitive piece of evidence, a communication between two political figures that suggested Lynch had agreed to put the kibosh on any prosecution of Clinton.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 16, 2017, 01:21:16 am
My problem is with hysterical hate filled comments and that applies to both sides.
The problem is you keep on trotting out that phrase "hysterical hate-filled comments".  Just as we all are against evil but we aren't necessarily against rock and roll and sex outside marriage, we're all against hysterical hate-filled comments but we might not agree with you about what deserves that label.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on June 16, 2017, 06:51:13 am
Had not seen this before today, but geez I can't imagine a better video to show why this guys is nothing more than a self-serving twat It is so embarrassing to see these leaders of the USA fawning over him.

[flash=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/v/6ARgUIpM6f0[/flash]

We all praise the blessed all mighty and powerful Kim Jong-un Donald Trump
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 16, 2017, 09:54:13 am
@MBB, I know that Trump would like to deflect attention and GOP Senators are only too happy to oblige, but Clinton, Lynch and even Comey are now just historical figures.  Few Americans and even fewer Australians worshipped Clinton with religious fervour. Certainly, I'm not one of them.  Her main virtue for me was that she wasn't Trump.  If I waste any time thinking of what might have been, I regret that Obama wasn't able to run for a 3rd term. 

Even though our recent coaches have inspired a lot of passionate debate, you see little appetite for continuing that debate.  Interesting, though, that I'm now coaching a grandson of Pagan - he looks exactly like Pagan would have as a kid!

This is a classic case of whipping a dead horse.  I wonder what the GOP will do without the Clinton bogeyman.  I guess they're praying that Chelsea goes into politics  ;D

Having said that, the "highly sensitive evidence" seems to be a Russian intelligence report which was likely a sham.  Apparently, his own staff warned him he couldn't rely on it but he worried that if it had been made public it would paint the FBI in a poor light.  The people referenced in the report were never approached by the FBI to verify or debunk the report and all now deny the assertions point blank.  'None of it makes much sense': Experts are baffled by Comey's use of a fake Russian document to skirt the DOJ (https://www.businessinsider.com.au/james-comey-fake-document-russia-fbi-clinton-email-2017-5?r=US&IR=T), Business Insider Australia.

I can't understand why Comey allowed himself to be bum-rushed into holding his infamous press conference.  Let's say his advice to Lynch ended up being that Clinton should be prosecuted.  If she than declared that there would be no charges, I'm sure someone at the FBI would have leaked Comey's contrary advice and there would have been a furore.  On the other hand, once he decided that there would be no prosecution, what would be the harm in Lynch declaring that the investigation was over and there would be no charges? It has me confused.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 16, 2017, 12:19:35 pm
Interesting take on obstruction of justice from Professor Alan Dershowitz. He believes that the law should be changed to provide that the President can't fire a special prosecutor or the FBI Director or direct an FBI Director to drop an investigation which cuts close to home. 

But he thinks that until such laws are passed by Congress, the President has the power to do all of those things.  In his view, Trump Had the power to tell Comey to stop investigating Flynn and his campaign associates up front.  Moreover, implying that Comey should stop investigating Flynn when he had the power to make it a specific direction couldn't be an obstruction either.

Others disagree with Dershowitz's view.  But if Dershowitz is right, this underscores how vulnerable US democracy is to a strongman in the Oval Office.  It may be that the President is like an Emporer who is free to do anything he pleases in his area of constitutional power. 

He would be free to put flunkies in to the Justice Department and demand that it follows his demands to persecute his rivals and give his allies freedom from legal action.  For instance, any allies of his could be protected from white collar criminal investigations.  That's not just a theoretical possibility.  Preet Bharara, the head of the New York financial crimes unit, was sacked by Trump amid reports that he was investigating Tom Price, Trump's Secretary of Health and Human Services.  Apparently, there were suggestions that Price had used insider information that Price had as a Senator to make out like a bandit on the stock market.  The day before Trump called on 8 Federal Prosecutors to resign, he called Bharara but, unlike Comey, Bharara refused to take the call as he believed doing so would be inappropriate.  Bang, he was out.

Concerns about Kushner, Trump and his sons using Trump's position to make money from foreigners would not, then, be legal concerns. 

Not only could he destroy the independence of the Justice Department and all other arms of government, he no doubt wants to tame the Courts.  The most obvious way would be to install Supreme Court Justices who believe that there should be few if any limits to the power of the President.  But he can also carve up Federal court districts to sideline judges he thinks are too liberal.

Of course, there may be a political price to pay if he continues down this path.  But if he is able to convince his base that he has to demolish checks and balances in order to "drain the swamp", he may well be able to bully the GOP into standing behind him (at least until the 2018 mid-term elections, anyway).

Yes, Trump could be impeached as the Congress isn't bound by legal definitions of "high crimes and misdemeanours" - it's essentially a political issue.  Undermining the independence of the Justice Department could easily justify impeachment.  But while Trump has the GOP in his pocket and the GOP controls Congress, he has little to fear in that regard.

He's already showing his hand by demonising Mueller and his team, calling them "bad and conflicted men".

We've had similar brushes with this sort of centralisation of power in Australia.  Rudd was a control freak and Abbott gave Peta Credlin a lot of power such that Abbott and Credlin were like co-rulers.  Fortunately, both discovered that they ruled only at the pleasure of their parliamentary colleagues and we've stepped back from the US presidential model.  And current ministers are now learning that they can't trash the courts like Trump does.  Thank heavens for small mercies.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 16, 2017, 12:29:57 pm
As each day passes Trump looks more and more like Putin, the differences are barely perceptible.

Trump is doing his best to differentiate himself, but the actions do not match the words.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 16, 2017, 02:03:44 pm
Now that everyone (except Trump) is expected to tone down their caustic rhetoric, we should stop calling Putin a dictatorial strongman.  After all, he is the democratically-elected head of Russia and no doubt the Russian parliamentary system has checks and balances to suppress autocratic tendencies.  And the suggestion that he had anything to do with the assassination of critical journalists or that he in any way was behind the unfortunate habit of political opponents falling out of windows or being shot is beyond the pale.  If there were any truth to that, Russian police would be right on it and it would be all over Russian TV news.  ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 16, 2017, 02:09:09 pm
Talking about Russia, here's an interesting report: https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/from-russia-with-blood-14-suspected-hits-on-british-soil?utm_term=.hfpwMaPoL#.uxeGKrbpj (https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/from-russia-with-blood-14-suspected-hits-on-british-soil?utm_term=.hfpwMaPoL#.uxeGKrbpj).  Thank God I wrote the previous post.  I just hope the Russians don't think I was being ironic.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 16, 2017, 02:24:16 pm
Russia sending a message Steve Scalise style! :D

I know the GOP have Trump's back, or at least he seems to have the GOP falling into order, but I wonder how long that persists after the Scalise incident?

I cannot help but feel this is the tip of the iceberg, lawyers and politicians might debate, but the nutters will act perhaps some with a little push!

Ahhh we laughed, but is it a fearful laugh!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 16, 2017, 02:45:04 pm
What has me beat is the insinuation that both sides are as bad as the other when it comes to caustic rhetoric and everything just cancels out.

I hope Lods or someone else can point to comments on the Dem side which cancel out Alex Jones' rant in the wake of the shooting yesterday when he talked about CNN journalist Wolf Blitzer getting a bullet in the head and others needing to hit the eject button to escape what's coming in the civil war: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alex-jones-blitzer-bullets_us_5943106ce4b06bb7d27214f8?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alex-jones-blitzer-bullets_us_5943106ce4b06bb7d27214f8?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009)

Yes, he's a knob who told a Court in divorce proceedings that he's not unhinged - he's just a performance artist who playacts losing his temper.  But he's a guy that Trump has legitimised as a commentator and reporter of the truth. So where is his opposite number on the opposite side of the aisle?  Surely SOMEONE can give me a lead ...

PS: I think Jones' comments fall within the category of "hysterical hate-filled comments".  That helps us flesh out that label.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on June 16, 2017, 02:57:27 pm
What has me beat is the insinuation that both sides are as bad as the other when it comes to caustic rhetoric and everything just cancels out.

I hope Lods or someone else can point to comments on the Dem side which cancel out Alex Jones' rant in the wake of the shooting yesterday when he talked about CNN journalist Wolf Bliter getting a bullet in the head and others needing to hit the eject button to escape what's coming in the civil war: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alex-jones-blitzer-bullets_us_5943106ce4b06bb7d27214f8?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alex-jones-blitzer-bullets_us_5943106ce4b06bb7d27214f8?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009)

Yes, he's a knob who told a Court in divorce proceedings that he's not unhinged - he's just a performance artist who playacts losing his temper.  But he's a guy that Trump has legitimised as a commentator and reporter of the truth. So where is his opposite number on the opposite side of the aisle?  Surely SOMEONE can give me a clue ...

I'm done Mav
I was talking about the absolute extremes on both sides...but you've taken it as a personal attack on yourself so it's best to let it go.

Thankfully it seems that in the wake of the shootings yesterday both Republicans and Democrats have expressed the view that some comments need modifying.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading
Post by: Mav on June 16, 2017, 03:06:30 pm
I didn't take it as a personal attack, Lods.  I took it as an assessment of the entirety of commentary but I just can't see any justification for the moral relativism. 

I think we all know that the current truce will only hold for a few days and things will return to "normal" soon enough.  The same thing has happened before in the wake of mass shootings but nothing actually changes.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading
Post by: Lods on June 16, 2017, 03:26:38 pm
At a political Congress/Senator level you dont get a great deal of extremism.
I don't view anything that you've written as extremist.
Biased perhaps, but you've made no secret of your disgust of Trumps behaviour and if you look back at my comments over the last eighteen months it's a bias I share.
You have to move a  fair way from centre before extremism starts.

Sure you have right wing nut jobs like Jones out there.
But if you look at comments from protestors in opposition to Trump or on social media there is no shortage of extremism to be found, some of it advocating violence...That's what I've been referring to.

Trump certainly doesn't help the situation, inflames it actually.
I just find it a bit contradictory.
Am I harder on the left?...probably, because I hold them to a higher standard.
They seek to be held to a higher standard.
The core of their message is a stand against hate.


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on June 16, 2017, 04:04:41 pm
Ordinarily, I'd agree that extreme social media outlets shouldn't be associated with a mainstream political party.  But Trump has actively courted Brietbart and Infowars and treats "news" from those outlets as fact, launching a twitter tirade accusing Obama of bugging Trump Tower phones on the strength of them, for example.  He also is loath to disassociate himself from KKK and AltRight groups, doing the minimum possible after being challenged to do so.  Gateway Pundit, a fake news site, was given White House press credentials; Paul Ryan knocked an application by Gateway Pundit for Congressional press accreditation on the head. 

On the other hand, Bernie Sanders has been quick to disassociate himself from extreme "Bernie Bros".  Hillary didn't need to do so as she is hardly a lightning rod for leftist radicals.  She's probably more conservative than Malcolm Turnbull and the far left is a mythical creature in the US with fewer sightings than the Yowie.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on July 10, 2017, 12:03:38 pm
Slam dunk!

[flash=200,200]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6_ckWZCHW4&sns=em[/flash]
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on July 11, 2017, 12:10:26 pm
Looks like Donald Trump Jnr has just wrecked his daddy's attempts to put the "Russia thing" behind him.

The NYT has reported that DT Jnr agreed to a meeting with a Russian lawyer (who NYT says has links to the Kremlin) shortly after Trump and Clinton had just clinched the nominations of their respective parties.  She was offering up dirt on Clinton.  He brought the then campaign manager Paul Manafort and Trump's son-in-law and principal adviser Jared Kushner to the meeting in Trump Tower.  He claims that she didn't have anything and wanted to talk about the suspended adoption program of Russian orphans, so the meeting wrapped up in only 20 minutes.

He denied that he knew the identity of the lawyer or that she had any links to the Russian government.

But the NYT has just broken another story that 3 sources confirm that the meeting was set up because of an email in which DT Jnr was told that the lawyer had information that the Russian government wanted to give to the Trump campaign!

By the way, the woman lawyer involved has a very Russian name and thick Russian accent and the Russian orphan program was suspended by Putin who was outraged by US sanctions following the Ukraine intervention. 

I wonder if Trump will pardon his son and any associates who may become targets of prosecutors.  There's some precedent for doing so.  President HW Bush pardoned Casper Weinberger to head off a prosecution over the Iran-Contra affair.  Politically, it would usually be poison but I can imagine Trump defiantly asserting that his family and associates are the subject of a witchhunt and he has to act to stop his government being destroyed by the dark state.  His base would eat it up.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on July 12, 2017, 12:07:35 pm
Wow, it's kicking off big time!  https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/us/politics/trump-russia-email-clinton.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/us/politics/trump-russia-email-clinton.html).

Not only does little Donald face legal trouble, but also he has ripped away daddy's standard defence that there's never been any evidence of collusion between his campaign and the Russians.  He has also put Jared Kushner's nuts in the grinder as well.  Kushner failed to disclose this meeting on his first 2 national security forms that are sworn under penalty of perjury.  He only disclosed it in his 3rd go after Paul Manafort disclosed it in his form.

How ironic that Trump, who continually banged on about Hillary's emails, is now being skewered by emails.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on July 12, 2017, 12:21:19 pm
Little Donald swears he didn't tell daddy about the meeting.  We're supposed to assume that Paul Manafort, Trump's campaign manager, and his son-in-law didn't do so either.  But there's an interesting juxtaposition with Trump teasing a big announcement of Clinton dirt 4 days after this meeting: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-clinton-don-jr-russia_us_596562fee4b09b587d633d10?d6w&ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-clinton-don-jr-russia_us_596562fee4b09b587d633d10?d6w&ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009).

Coincidence?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: LP on August 04, 2017, 08:11:37 am
So this new leak, I presume coming from the Trump side of politics, is it designed to hurt Turnbull and benefit Abbott?
Title: Re: US Presidential Election 2016
Post by: Lods on August 04, 2017, 08:33:03 am
So this new leak, I presume coming from the Trump side of politics, is it designed to hurt Turnbull and benefit Abbott?

Hurts Turnbull to some extent. He's basically  saying "make a show of it, but only take a few if that's what you want to do. Just don't make us look bad by going back on the deal".....but it's Trump who looks like a goose (as usual).
More likely the purpose of the leak was to embarrass Trump.

Having said that...this bit from Malcolm wasn't good.

Quote
We will take more. We will take anyone that you want us to take. The only people that we do not take are people who come by boat. So we would rather take a not very attractive guy that help you out then to take a Noble [sic] Peace Prize winner that comes by boat. That is the point.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on August 04, 2017, 03:15:13 pm
So do you think the current Whitehouse would prefer Turnbull or Abbott?

Who do you prefer if the crap hits the fan in North Korea?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on August 04, 2017, 04:49:44 pm
So do you think the current Whitehouse would prefer Turnbull or Abbott?

Who do you prefer if the crap hits the fan in North Korea?

Q1 Abbott
Q2 Mohandas Gandhi
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on August 04, 2017, 06:32:48 pm
Q1 Abbott
Q2 Mohandas Gandhi

 :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on October 04, 2017, 10:57:27 pm
Has anyone seen the footage of the POTUS chucking paper towels to Puerto Ricans with a very limp-wristed basketball shot action?

Honestly, the tool has proved himself to be far worse than I thought possible.  Surely he will be impeached before he does too much more damage ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: thrunthrublu on October 04, 2017, 11:43:46 pm
Has anyone seen the footage of the POTUS chucking paper towels to Puerto Ricans with a very limp-wristed basketball shot action?

Honestly, the tool has proved himself to be far worse than I thought possible.  Surely he will be impeached before he does too much more damage ...

Yeah i did. Fkwit move.
He is nothing of the president he promised to be . Fking zero.
Promised non intervention, wants to be in everything and more , he openly comes out and says it for resources
Gets in a slanging match with NK leader and even how nuts kim is, its got him scrambling for intermediaries - anywhere to try and figure out what this clown is doing.
A false dawn, a fkwit thats learning how DC is - on the job at the worlds expense

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 05, 2017, 08:55:40 am
Drain the swamp? Trump is a creature of the swamp.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Peter Brady on October 05, 2017, 09:04:49 am
Drain the swamp? Trump is a creature of the swamp.

Swamp Thing
(http://crooksandliars.com/files/imagecache/node_primary/primary_image/16/12/trumpthing_0.jpg)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 05, 2017, 10:00:14 am
Swamp Thing
(http://crooksandliars.com/files/imagecache/node_primary/primary_image/16/12/trumpthing_0.jpg)

Like it PB!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on October 12, 2017, 03:02:41 pm
Now Trump hints at revoking licenses for those that peddle news stories that are negative about him (so therefore must be fake news).

What a d1ckhead
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 12, 2017, 04:30:16 pm
I was watching him speaking to Truck drivers in Pennsylvania this morning. :D
It was a s funny as...
He started by welcoming a list of congressman and other "hangers on"
He was reading from a list and as he read quite a few of the names there were loud boos.
About half way through he throws the list away and says something about losing the audience.
A speech writer might be looking for a new job tonight... ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on October 13, 2017, 12:24:58 am
I was watching him speaking to Truck drivers in Pennsylvania this morning. :D
It was a s funny as...
He started by welcoming a list of congressman and other "hangers on"
He was reading from a list and as he read quite a few of the names there were loud boos.
About half way through he throws the list away and says something about losing the audience.
A speech writer might be looking for a new job tonight... ;D

 :o

Surely you have better things to do with your time than watch the POTUS talk rubbish and mangle the English language Lods!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 13, 2017, 07:02:58 am
:o

Surely you have better things to do with your time than watch the POTUS talk rubbish and mangle the English language Lods!

Not really :(
It's SKY, FOX, CNN and CSC....I love politics, debate, agenda and spin ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on October 13, 2017, 07:15:42 am
Not really :(
It's SKY, FOX, CNN and CSC....I love politics, debate, agenda and spin ;D

Me too ... but I draw a line if the current POTUS is involved  :(
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 13, 2017, 07:29:37 am
Me too ... but I draw a line if the current POTUS is involved  :(

That's the problem....He needs folk to keep an eye on him.
There's no telling what he'll do ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on October 13, 2017, 07:46:03 am
That's the problem....He needs folk to keep an eye on him.
There's no telling what he'll do ;D

I can follow his trail of poor decisions without actually listening to or watching him.  In fact, if everyone ignored him he might just go away.

He has just withdrawn the USA from UNESCO   ::)  It doesn't take effect until the end of 2018 so his replacement could change the decision ... if he hasn't already done so  :-\
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 18, 2017, 03:33:43 pm
Wow, yet more proof that Trump is a defective, disgusting and despicable dhead. 

He rang the widow of an elite soldier killed in Niger and apparently told her, "I guess he knew what he signed up for but I guess it still hurts".  What a tough guy!  Well, as tough as a draft dodger could be ...

And no doubt he was only calling because a journo asked him whether he'd called the families of the 4 fallen soldiers.  Instead of just saying that he was going to do so, he tried to boast of being the only president who made calls in such circumstances, asserting falsely that Obama never did. 

Then he trashed the privacy of his Chief Of Staff, Gen. Kelly, by declaring that Obama didn't call him when one of his sons was killed on duty and inviting journos to ring him up to ask him.  Apparently, Obama had invited Gen Kelly and other Gold Star families to a breakfast at the White House and Gen. Kelly sat at Michelle Obama's table.  But Gen. Kelly has previously been firm that he didn't want to discuss his son's death in public as it would receive disproportionate attention despite each Gold Star family suffering the same loss.

Maybe a bit of trouble yet for Trump regarding the 4 soldiers killed in Niger.  No doubt the journo was asking about Trump's silence over their deaths because their unit had sought urgent support to fight local terrorists but support was refused, and the journo suspected Trump would prefer to forget about the deaths.  Given that the GOP and Trump refused to let go of the so-called Benghazi scandal because they asserted that soldiers and an ambassador died because Clinton failed to provide the requested support, this may just be another chapter in a book full of hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 18, 2017, 03:37:15 pm
Trump should have taken the Abbott lead and just stated, "Sh1t Happens!"
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 20, 2017, 08:57:40 am
Life just gets weirder by the day, George Bush Jnr becomes an Elder Statesman!

Quote
Several hours before Bush spoke, Trump delivered a conspiracy theory via a remarkable tweet in which he suggested Russian officials, the FBI and the Democratic Party worked together to create a dossier of potentially incriminating information about him during the 2016 presidential election.

One line of Bush's speech appeared pointedly aimed at Trump: "And we know that when we lose sight of our ideals, it is not democracy that has failed, it is the failure of those charged with preserving and protecting democracy."

Remember years ago how big of a banana most people thought George Jnr was, now relative to Trump.................well sheez! :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Micky0 on October 20, 2017, 09:27:45 am
Life just gets weirder by the day, George Bush Jnr becomes an Elder Statesman!

Remember years ago how big of a banana most people thought George Jnr was, now relative to Trump.................well sheez! :o
Yes I thought the same when I read that before - scary times when we're looking towards George W for a reasonable voice!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 20, 2017, 09:43:31 am
Dubya has probably been the biggest beneficiary of Trump's Presidency.  Nothing could have rehabilitated him better than having a despicable, foolish narcissist in power by way of comparison.

But the GOP under Dubya and Trump are remarkably different beasts.  Dubya was in the thrall of neocons like Karl Rove and Dick Chaney - economic globalists and militarily adventurers.  Trump has combined Tea Party isolationism and small government with Evangelical social conservatism and dominionism.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on December 09, 2017, 03:14:04 pm
http://www.smh.com.au/world/i-study-liars-ive-never-seen-one-like-president-trump-20171208-h01q54.html
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Amers on December 09, 2017, 03:33:56 pm
http://www.smh.com.au/world/i-study-liars-ive-never-seen-one-like-president-trump-20171208-h01q54.html

What a load of rubbish, show me some results compared to previous presidents not a bunch of self reporting students...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on December 09, 2017, 07:15:36 pm
What a load of rubbish, show me some results compared to previous presidents not a bunch of self reporting students...

http://www.belladepaulo.com/

The author seems to have done a lot of work in this field though. Not familiar with it myself.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on December 09, 2017, 08:20:43 pm
http://www.belladepaulo.com/

The author seems to have done a lot of work in this field though. Not familiar with it myself.

She has...her other passion seems to be promoting the joys of a single lifestyle.
So credit for her opinions
She's not uninformed, she has done a lot of work ...and there's a fair chance she's right with regard to the target of her comments
However her comments also need to be seen in light of her personal political beliefs.

http://www.belladepaulo.com/2010/10/politically-i-am-passionate-and-ambivalent/

On another topic....
Some of her comments and references on the status of marriage and 'singles' are interesting in light of our SSM debate.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/bella-depaulo/challenges-to-the-privile_b_730648.html
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on December 09, 2017, 09:34:22 pm
She has...her other passion seems to be promoting the joys of a single lifestyle.
So credit for her opinions
She's not uninformed, she has done a lot of work ...and there's a fair chance she's right with regard to the target of her comments
However her comments also need to be seen in light of her personal political beliefs.

http://www.belladepaulo.com/2010/10/politically-i-am-passionate-and-ambivalent/

On another topic....
Some of her comments and references on the status of marriage and 'singles' are interesting in light of our SSM debate.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/bella-depaulo/challenges-to-the-privile_b_730648.html

Well, just fancy that.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 13, 2017, 09:53:54 am
Is Bannon boosting Moore a genuine form of support for the democrats, or a clever way to get back at Trump?

It seems quite odd that Bannon is going out of his way to connect the election result to the continuation of the "Trump Miracle".

It's almost like Bannon is trying to mobilise Trump's opposition by reminding them the meaning this election result contains!

PS: Early reports are Moore has lost. Trump's people are blaming sexual misconduct allegations to distract from Trump as the primary cause of a shock result in a "Trump state". I presume it was Trump state during the election because it was more anti-Hilary!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on December 14, 2017, 09:49:46 am
Jones defeating Moore is a huge boost for the Democrats.  However, I think it's too early to tell whether the POTUS's chickens are coming home to roost.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on December 14, 2017, 10:44:04 am
I presume it was Trump state during the election because it was more anti-Hilary!

Correct, she was a terrible candidate.

Trump will only serve one term.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on December 14, 2017, 11:07:50 am
Correct, she was a terrible candidate.

Trump will only serve one term.

Which is about 4 terms too many. Whatever contempt you have for Hilary, at least she would never have gone down as the worst president in US history.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on December 14, 2017, 11:13:40 am
I presume it was Trump state during the election because it was more anti-Hilary!

Alabama has been Republican in Presidential elections since 1980 and Senate elections since the 1990s.

Correct, she was a terrible candidate.

Trump will only serve one term.

The Republican candidate in Alabama was worse ;)


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 14, 2017, 04:31:57 pm
Correct, she was a terrible candidate.

Trump will only serve one term.

If he gets another one that will truly be The Trump Miracle!

But the worry is MBB, is he the type to start a war to save his own skin? If he does, and he sends the sons and daughters from those red state Trump families off to the slaughter, who's hero will he be then?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on December 14, 2017, 04:40:17 pm
Root gone!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on July 17, 2018, 04:58:04 pm
Trump plummets his own house into disarray, and his blind followers tell the world it's all deliberate and part of his cunning plan!

Where have I heard that before?

(https://johnbrace.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/blackadder-baldrick-has-a-cunning-plan.jpg)

For lovers of cryptic clues, there sure is a cunning part in all this!

Well maybe not so cryptic!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on July 17, 2018, 06:13:56 pm
Trump plummets his own house into disarray, and his blind followers tell the world it's all deliberate and part of his cunning plan!

Where have I heard that before?

(https://johnbrace.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/blackadder-baldrick-has-a-cunning-plan.jpg)

For lovers of cryptic clues, there sure is a cunning part in all this!

Well maybe not so cryptic!

Mmm, a cunning stunt by Trump. Maybe he's just...

Anyway, be interesting to see how the Republicans respond to Trump clearly and publicly believing Putin over his own intelligence agencies... oh, dear, Donald... what have you done? We've got ring side seats to this circus. Grab your popcorn and let's see what the Republicans do... ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on July 18, 2018, 07:58:39 am
Did you get that one overnight Baggers?

From rooting tooting gunslinger, to Hans Mole Man in one foul swoop!

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--8RN47rweDA/TxzhBQvVk6I/AAAAAAAAK7Y/VJYrif73NBM/s1600/hans+moleman+at+the+dmv+the+simpsons.png)

Was that Fake Misspeaking, all part of a cunning plan?

God Bless America!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 14, 2018, 03:17:29 pm
Trump may be a Fwit but he's not an idiot, or at least someone on his team isn't an idiot.

Currently the Trump camp is playing the media with one of the oldest tricks in the book, and it's the fault of blokes like Murdoch that Trump can get away with it.

Often in the leadup to an election you could discredit someone by leaking a story, then after it gains traction you also deliver or leak the proof that the story was false. The trick is doing so at arms length so you appear like the innocent 3rd party, and it makes other claims about you seem less truthful. It sort of gives you a short term boost in credibility by discrediting your enemy who you associate with the leak. But as a tactic it was used sparsely because the journalists were not idiots you could fool twice in a short period of time. Use the tactic too often and it bites you on the ar5e.

Now, after years of cuts, syndication and redundancies, media organisations are full of bloggers instead of journalists. This is Murdoch's fault, he's removed journalists and replaced them with syndicated bloggers as a profit making exercise.

But now the Trump camp can take full advantage of this, they have moved in full gear on a campaign designed to discredit their true enemy, the people that helped him get elected, the main stream media.

So what the Trump camp is doing is becoming the source of the leak and the proof that it's false. He has an almost unlimited resource of bloggers who are more than willing to go mainstream with a breaking story that the Trump camp leaks to them. After it gains some momentum Trumps camp turns out evidence that the story was false, associates it with false news from his enemies, and the blogger and the media organisation lose credibility in the public eye.

If he can't make himself smell sweet, he'll make his opponents stink it up!

A proper race to the bottom of the barrel!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 14, 2018, 05:00:33 pm
I can't believe anyone is still paying attention. Future civilizations will need to work extremely hard to show there was intelligent life on earth after this joke.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 14, 2018, 08:02:19 pm
It looks like Hillary will challenge in 2020
She'll win.

It hasn't been the Ragnarok many predicted but there has been enough drift that she should take it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 14, 2018, 08:39:33 pm
I can't believe anyone is still paying attention. Future civilizations will need to work extremely hard to show there was intelligent life on earth after this joke.

 :)) :)) :))now that got a belly laugh from me. Yep, watching the Trump show can only render anything with an IQ, speechless...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 14, 2018, 09:50:52 pm
It looks like Hillary will challenge in 2020
She'll win.

It hasn't been the Ragnarok many predicted but there has been enough drift that she should take it.

No chance. She won't win the nomination because the democrats know she can't beat Trump.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 15, 2018, 04:27:13 am
Failing health and a deep distrust, she wouldn't stand a chance.  She had her shot and lost
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 15, 2018, 07:43:21 am
It looks like Hillary will challenge in 2020
She'll win.

It hasn't been the Ragnarok many predicted but there has been enough drift that she should take it.

Too much baggage and too divisive!  Hillary would condemn the world to another term of reality TV presidency.

The Democrats need a Teflon candidate and they need to use their numbers in the House to undermine the fecker’s base.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 15, 2018, 07:45:44 am
This has a fell of Watergate to it, I suspect it's not going to end well.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 15, 2018, 05:48:43 pm
Too much baggage and too divisive!  Hillary would condemn the world to another term of reality TV presidency.

The Democrats need a Teflon candidate and they need to use their numbers in the House to undermine the fecker’s base.

I hope the Democrats bring this clown to account (narcissists hate accountability), he'll probably resign citing everyone else incompetent.

Why can't Obama make a come back? I know you can't serve more than 2, consecutive 4 yr terms. If he didn't have the House and Senate against him he might be actually able to get things accomplished this time.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 15, 2018, 05:57:57 pm
I may have posted this before but apparently recently, inside the White House, President Trump was informed that Hurricane Florence was causing a lot of trouble. He replied “Give her the same deal we gave Stormy Daniels”.

Excuse my worsening memory if I have!  ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 15, 2018, 07:20:13 pm
I may have posted this before but apparently recently, inside the White House, President Trump was informed that Hurricane Florence was causing a lot of trouble. He replied “Give her the same deal we gave Stormy Daniels”.

Excuse my worsening memory if I have!  ::)

 :))

Cookie, the sad thing is that your story is probably true.

It's an indictment on what Americans like to describe as democracy when senile narcissist can become POTUS.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 16, 2018, 09:49:44 am
:))

Cookie, the sad thing is that your story is probably true.

It's an indictment on what Americans like to describe as democracy when senile narcissist can become POTUS.

I watched the recent interview with Stormy Daniels and Bill Maher, hilarious. And she's no fool. Finding out that Trump has a penis like a mushroom was something I really didn't need to know, though it does prove that mushrooms will grow on just about any sh1te about the place  ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 16, 2018, 11:50:45 am
I watched the recent interview with Stormy Daniels and Bill Maher, hilarious. And she's no fool. Finding out that Trump has a penis like a mushroom was something I really didn't need to know, though it does prove that mushrooms will grow on just about any sh1te about the place  ;D

There are many kinds of mushroom Baggers - wonder what type the Donald sports - "Deathcap"  or "Shiitake" perhaps ??  ???
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 16, 2018, 02:28:19 pm
I’m afraid that’s just too much information Baggers (searching for vomit emoticon).

One of two American comedians on the wireless this morning mentioned that the POTUS is a narcissistic sociopath; watching himself in the mirror while he ruins the world  :(
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: hotspur on November 16, 2018, 02:52:55 pm
Hillary hasnt got a chance against Trump ,she may be loved by the Hollywood set and the press  ,but mainstream America cant stand her ,and  they would  much rather have Trump with all his faults rightly or wrongly  and he has plenty  because he gets things done.  
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 16, 2018, 02:54:02 pm
I’m afraid that’s just too much information Baggers (searching for vomit emoticon).

One of two American comedians on the wireless this morning mentioned that the POTUS is a narcissistic sociopath; watching himself in the mirror while he ruins the world  :(

The mirror is the only way he'll see his penis, which is what I think Stormy Daniels was getting at, it grows in the shade!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 16, 2018, 03:02:45 pm
Hillary hasnt got a chance against Trump ,she may be loved by the Hollywood set and the press  ,but mainstream America cant stand her ,and  they would  much rather have Trump with all his faults rightly or wrongly  and he has plenty  because he gets things done.

Showy posturing and populist gestures are his idea of getting things done.

And I'm not really a Hilary fan, but she is light years ahead of Trump, if only for the fact that she actually knows how to be a politician.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 16, 2018, 03:34:52 pm
Can any of them claim high ground on getting things done?

From what I can tell, the Clintons will move heaven and earth if their wallets get thicker, maybe even start a war!

While Trump isn't even that motivated to make an effort and prefers to just claim credit for stuff done by others! He's an opportunistic feeder like an old gator, if something passes close enough he'll take a bite if it not too much trouble!

But I can see more Shutdowns coming to the USA, and I'm sure Trump will blame the Democrats and the Democrats will blame Trump.

The little people will be hurt from both sides whether they vote GOP or Democrat!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 16, 2018, 03:52:52 pm
There are many kinds of mushroom Baggers - wonder what type the Donald sports - "Deathcap"  or "Shiitake" perhaps ??  ???

 :)) :)) :)) :)) probably Shiitake... all head, no stalk (sorry, DJC... where's that vomit bag?  ;) ;D)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: bmaurizio on November 16, 2018, 04:01:53 pm
Showy posturing and populist gestures are his idea of getting things done.

And I'm not really a Hilary fan, but she is light years ahead of Trump, if only for the fact that she actually knows how to be a politician.

Spot on Hillary has the demeanour, finesse and professionalism of an experianced politician, big difference. I'm certain Trump can’t comprehend or is not concerned on what is going on about him. The republican party will rue the day he won primaries and leadership country.
It was a huge faux paux,  lets hope it can be rectified quickly.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 16, 2018, 04:15:16 pm
Showy posturing and populist gestures are his idea of getting things done.

And I'm not really a Hilary fan, but she is light years ahead of Trump, if only for the fact that she actually knows how to be a politician.

...and is aware that she is not the centre of the universe, unlike Trump (the White House's resident narcissist).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 16, 2018, 04:19:36 pm
We shouldn't be bagging the USA for having trump, we have Sir Les Patterson!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 16, 2018, 05:04:58 pm
We shouldn't be bagging the USA for having trump, we have Sir Les Patterson!

 :)) :)) :)) what more can be said! Though, if you've seen any of Sir Les' performances, he has something far more impressive than a mushroom...  ;D :-[
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 16, 2018, 05:08:30 pm
:)) :)) :)) what more can be said! Though, if you've seen any of Sir Les' performances, he has something far more impressive than a mushroom...  ;D :-[

Sir Les is our big red head!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 16, 2018, 05:14:11 pm
:)) :)) :)) what more can be said! Though, if you've seen any of Sir Les' performances, he has something far more impressive than a mushroom...  ;D :-[

I guess Stormy would have been very prudent to ensure that the mushroom of the Donald was in fact an edible variety and not poisonous - can't be too careful with mushies - very important to correctly identify them!  8)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 16, 2018, 07:57:51 pm
:)) :)) :)) what more can be said! Though, if you've seen any of Sir Les' performances, he has something far more impressive than a mushroom...  ;D :-[

[flash=400,400]https://www.youtube.com/v/jfNvunRmgcw[/flash]
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 16, 2018, 08:57:13 pm
[flash=400,400]https://www.youtube.com/v/jfNvunRmgcw[/flash]


 :)) :)) :)) Someone should send this to Trump and tell him that Sir Les will be talking with him soon about international relations. As the Yanks seem to not understand irony, he just might buy it! As for Stormy, well if she saw this clip or another Sir Les clip, she'd... mmm, no, I don't think I can take this any further without getting into trouble!  :-X ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 16, 2018, 09:54:05 pm
Can any of them claim high ground on getting things done?

From what I can tell, the Clintons will move heaven and earth if their wallets get thicker, maybe even start a war!

While Trump isn't even that motivated to make an effort and prefers to just claim credit for stuff done by others! He's an opportunistic feeder like an old gator, if something passes close enough he'll take a bite if it not too much trouble!

But I can see more Shutdowns coming to the USA, and I'm sure Trump will blame the Democrats and the Democrats will blame Trump.

The little people will be hurt from both sides whether they vote GOP or Democrat!

You just described most politicians.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 16, 2018, 10:19:57 pm
Aaah Sir Les, now there was a mushroom!  ;)

Don't make 'em like that anymore.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 17, 2018, 09:51:44 am
Aaah Sir Les, now there was a mushroom!  ;)

Don't make 'em like that anymore.

Hung like a rogue elephant, Sir Les.

Speaking of Aussie icons... wish we could sneak Norman Gunston into a White House media session with Trump. There must be a way to have Norman interview/question Trump... who wouldn't want to see that!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 17, 2018, 11:13:36 am
Speaking of Aussie icons... wish we could sneak Norman Gunston into a White House media session with Trump. There must be a way to have Norman interview/question Trump... who wouldn't want to see that!

I'm pegging it would take Trump at least 18 hours to formulate a tweet in response!

John Clarke would have been another good one to get hold of the Donald!

But alas, I think it would be all wasted on the yanks! Have you ever seen the shock and confusion when an Irish politician explains the PR-STV election system to a US republican? It's like coaching an opera singer in Klingon!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 17, 2018, 04:51:45 pm
I'm pegging it would take Trump at least 18 hours to formulate a tweet in response!

John Clarke would have been another good one to get hold of the Donald!

But alas, I think it would be all wasted on the yanks! Have you ever seen the shock and confusion when an Irish politician explains the PR-STV election system to a US republican? It's like coaching an opera singer in Klingon!

Now ya talkin'. Clarke and Dawe - comedy/political commentary giants. And you're 100% right, the Yanks just wouldn't get it. You're being very generous to The Donald... 18 hours if he was in a switched on mood, and even then he wouldn't get it. Many who know Trump often comment on the fact that the bloke has no sense of humour, pity really because when he looks in the mirror there is so much 'golden' comedy material looking right back at him... ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 17, 2018, 07:11:02 pm
>
> Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Trump Supporter?

>  Here is a little test that will help you decide.
>
> The answer can be found by posing the following question:

> You're walking down a
> deserted street with your wife
> And two small children.

> Suddenly, a terrorist with a huge knife
> comes around the corner,
> locks eyes with you,
> screams "Allah ho akhbar!",
> raises the knife, and charges at you...

> You are carrying a
> Kimber 1911 .45 ACP, and you are an expert shot.
> You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family.
> What do you do?



> THINK CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU READ ON:

>
> Democrat's Answer:

> �   Well, that's not enough information to answer the question!
> �   What is a Kimber 1911.45 ACP?
> �   Does the man look poor or oppressed?
> �   Is he really a terrorist? Am I guilty of profiling?
> �   Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack?
> �   Could we run away?
> �   What does my wife think?
> �   What about the kids?
> �   Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand?
> �   What does the law say about this situation?
> �   Does the pistol have appropriate safety built into it?
> �   Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does this send to society and to my children?
> �   Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me?
> �   Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me?
> �   If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me?
> �   Should I call 9-1-1?
> �   Why is this street so deserted?
> �   We need to raise taxes, have paint & weed day.
> �   Can we make this a happier, healthier street that would discourage such behavior.
> �   I need to debate this with some friends for a few days and try to come to a consensus.
> �   This is all so confusing!

> ............ ........ ........ ........ ......... ........ ........ ........

>
> Republican's Answer:



> BANG!

>
> ............ ........ ...... ......... ......... ......... ........ ....

> Trump Supporter's Answer:

> BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
> BANG ! BANG! BANG! BANG!
> Click..... (Sounds of reloading)

> BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!BANG!BANG!
> Click

> Daughter: 'Nice grouping, Daddy!'
> 'Were those the Winchester Silver Tips or Hollow Points?!

> Son:  'Can I shoot the next one?!'

> Wife: You are not taking that to the Taxidermist!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Professer E on November 18, 2018, 11:42:16 am
I thought the Kimber only had a seven shot capacity,  unless it had a custom magazine...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 18, 2018, 12:10:53 pm
I thought the Kimber only had a seven shot capacity,  unless it had a custom magazine...

https://store.kimberamerica.com/handguns/1911/magazines

For the anally retentive!  :))
Looks like max is a 10 shot - apologies.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Professer E on November 18, 2018, 01:06:37 pm
Not bagging you out Cookie,  just pointing out that it's one thing to pack heat for home dee-fence.  But packing custom heat,  that's taking it to a whole other level.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 18, 2018, 01:15:06 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0

Best gun comedy sketch ever, which makes total common sense. He was just about run out of the US after this (Jim Jefferies).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 18, 2018, 01:22:51 pm
Not bagging you out Cookie,  just pointing out that it's one thing to pack heat for home dee-fence.  But packing custom heat,  that's taking it to a whole other level.

No offense taken Prof - just having a laugh.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 18, 2018, 07:46:05 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0

Best gun comedy sketch ever, which makes total common sense. He was just about run out of the US after this (Jim Jefferies).

????

The thing is the audience got it!

I know gun toting Democrats and gun control Republicans so it’s hard to really get a handle on who thinks what when it comes to guns in the US.  One thing that I am sure of is that the videos of people shooting themselves in the foot, getting knocked over by the recoil and other firearms stupidity all feature supporters of the current POTUS (maintaining my determination never to use his name!).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 20, 2018, 01:30:15 pm
Every time the police apprehend terror suspects before they act the police are labeled racists.

Every time the police arrest terrorists after a terrorist act, the police are labeled negligent!

How can they win?

Do what The Donald does, shoot the critics! :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Professer E on November 20, 2018, 05:22:51 pm
Careful LP,  if keep pedaling such common sense you'll be branded anti-PC,  which is considered even worse than Islamaphobes,  Racists, Fascists,  Nazi's,  Misogynists....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 20, 2018, 07:58:22 pm
Every time the police apprehend terror suspects before they act the police are labeled racists.

Every time the police arrest terrorists after a terrorist act, the police are labeled negligent!

How can they win?

Do what The Donald does, shoot the critics! :o

Who the hell labelled the cops racists for apprehending terror suspects? I haven't heard anything other than, 'well done, ripper.' from all sides of the political spectrum.

I don't think anyone with a modicum of intelligence would react badly to the arrest of people planning harm. Maybe the 1% lunatic fringe, but really no-one takes any notice of them... accept the HUN which will splash dramatic headlines, giving voice to the lunies of the far left (or far right, depends on what suits their agenda that day!!!).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Professer E on November 20, 2018, 08:57:02 pm
There was a big stink last week about some students at a Sydney uni which had their charges dropped.  Feds copped a serve over it.   Reading between the lines there wasn't enough to get a conviction or it was not deemed serious enough to push.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 20, 2018, 09:15:49 pm
There was a big stink last week about some students at a Sydney uni which had their charges dropped.  Feds copped a serve over it.   Reading between the lines there wasn't enough to get a conviction or it was not deemed serious enough to push.

Yes, I think I saw that. If it's the same one looked like students were being c0ckheads (probably ripped on something). It was an over reaction from the constabulary but just a storm in a tea cup... slow news day!

I recall about 2 years ago walking past Crown Casino and there was a scuffle between a couple of cops on horse back and about half dozen protesters. Bugger all to it. When I saw it on the news... looked like half of Melbourne was at war!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 21, 2018, 02:53:28 pm
I recall about 2 years ago walking past Crown Casino and there was a scuffle between a couple of cops on horse back and about half dozen protesters. Bugger all to it. When I saw it on the news... looked like half of Melbourne was at war!

I think I was in at Crown that day too, was it when the treasurer was speaking at a gig? I actually drove past the main entrance just before the marching protesters arrived, the media made it look like a war but it was a handful of protesters(maybe 50 all up) and it was over in minutes, when they were refused entry they left!

I've been OS and had concerned relatives ring me because the local news has reported widespread rioting in the streets of big cities. On one occasion I was in a hotel overlooking the very park / square were it was all supposed to be happening, there was nobody there except people walking their dogs!

btw., I have the inside official word on the US Hurricane season, there is no climate change it's just God punishing Americans for Trump! (Insensitive I know!)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 21, 2018, 03:43:47 pm
I think I was in at Crown that day too, was it when the treasurer was speaking at a gig? I actually drove past the main entrance just before the marching protesters arrived, the media made it look like a war but it was a handful of protesters(maybe 50 all up) and it was over in minutes, when they were refused entry they left!

I've been OS and had concerned relatives ring me because the local news has reported widespread rioting in the streets of big cities. On one occasion I was in a hotel overlooking the very park / square were it was all supposed to be happening, there was nobody there except people walking their dogs!

btw., I have the inside official word on the US Hurricane season, there is no climate change it's just God punishing Americans for Trump! (Insensitive I know!)

I thought Trump was their punishment  >:D

Timing sounds about right, Spotted One. Most of the crowd were onlookers. Amazing what  you can create with 'tight shots' of a scuffle (and it wasn't even that). You're right it was dispersed in minutes. You'll see more drama in a kindergarten when Johnny pulls Mary's hair.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on January 22, 2020, 11:03:41 am
https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/hillary-clinton-blasts-bernie-sanders-nobody-likes-him-20200122-p53tiz.html

Hilary was liked so much she lost to Donald Trump.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 22, 2020, 11:47:10 am
https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/hillary-clinton-blasts-bernie-sanders-nobody-likes-him-20200122-p53tiz.html

Hilary was liked so much she lost to Donald Trump.
There is not much for voters to choose from in any country.

In the interim the US have us to thank, Tony Abbott is over there praising Trump and accusing those suggesting links between bush fires and climate change as being some new form of religious zealot.

Is there irony in Tony Abbott accusing someone of being a religious zealot?

I suppose crap happens!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on January 22, 2020, 12:47:06 pm
https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/hillary-clinton-blasts-bernie-sanders-nobody-likes-him-20200122-p53tiz.html

Hilary was liked so much she lost to Donald Trump.

Trump won because of Killary (who is loathed)

Scomo won here because of Bill (Bill loves Bill).

Boris won in the UK because of Corbyn (a commie nutter on a good day)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 22, 2020, 01:28:07 pm
I'm not really a Hilary fan, but even the worst she has to offer is better than anything coming from Trump.

And I would vote for Corbyn. He highlights the very biggest issue that has plagued Labor parties everywhere, which is simply a crisis of identity. They should split the various Labor parties into two - the Liberal- lite party, and the proper, traditional Labor party. The various Labor parties that have held power over the years vacillate between the two, and they suffer as a result. A very entrenched factionalism that won't be resolved IMO until this split occurs.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 22, 2020, 05:24:49 pm
Trump won because of Killary (who is loathed)

Scomo won here because of Bill (Bill loves Bill).

Boris won in the UK because of Corbyn (a commie nutter on a good day)

Was mainly Bill with ScoMo but the Labor party made poor policy on the run and shot themselves in the head with older voters as well as rural voters who were doing it tough.
Boris won because he looks like an English Trump and yep agree on Comrade Corbyn. Mr Free, everything he promised was going to cost nothing, the State will provide by taking all the wealth back from the wealthy, he was/is a communist Robin Hood.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on January 22, 2020, 06:19:14 pm
I'm not really a Hilary fan, but even the worst she has to offer is better than anything coming from Trump.

Unfortunately for the Democrats...Hilary's best is also better than any of their three front running candidates (Biden, Warren and Sanders) this year.
The more impressive debate performers have been Klobuchar (probably a good Vice President choice), Yang and Mayor Pete.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 22, 2020, 07:04:00 pm
Unfortunately for the Democrats...Hilary's best is also better than any of their three front running candidates (Biden, Warren and Sanders) this year.
The more impressive debate performers have been Klobuchar (probably a good Vice President choice), Yang and Mayor Pete.

I lost interest in US politics when Trump was elected, but back in 2016 I liked Sanders. He had quite a lot of popular support, especially when you consider he had no money and no budget. As Chomsky has observed, elections in the US are basically bought. He mentions studies that show a very strong correlation between election spending and victory.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 22, 2020, 11:50:13 pm
Trump statistically has been a very successful president.

He's not respectable, but I have to say he's actually done the job better than anyone is giving him credit for.

Their economy is flourishing.  Unemployment is down.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on January 23, 2020, 05:24:59 am
Can't say I don't like Corbyn .... I actually loathe the communist dog.  Apologies to all canines.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 23, 2020, 07:56:52 am
Trump statistically has been a very successful president.

He's not respectable, but I have to say he's actually done the job better than anyone is giving him credit for.

Their economy is flourishing.  Unemployment is down.
It will be interesting to see the long term effects, while nearly all are happy with the short term some in business I deal with claim he's burning the future and betting that future technology will be able to "fix" whatever is the outcome of his short term dealings. It's quite hard to gauge the short term as his trick is changing how things are measured and represented. The net result is that you get reports like unemployment is down, without being able to verify the figures, will this come about at the expense of wealth, health and lifestyle?

Some say the US Economy still hasn't even regained the ground lost in the government shutdowns, and that the reporting is bogus.

Are they still printing money(Quantitative Easing) faster than you can shuffle it?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 23, 2020, 09:06:33 am
QE isn't printing money as such, its about banks buying govt bonds and driving down the cost of borrowing further and providing more stimulus to the economy. Its the last resort after interest rates have been driven down to nothing like we are slowly seeing... Next step is another GFC when share markets go bang with all this extra money inflating stocks...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 23, 2020, 01:09:00 pm
I've heard Richard Woolf say there's a strong consensus that a recession will happen sometime this year, and Trump is trying various things to delay it or preempt the blame shifting to still be looking good at election time.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 23, 2020, 02:08:51 pm
QE isn't printing money as such, its about banks buying govt bonds and driving down the cost of borrowing further and providing more stimulus to the economy. Its the last resort after interest rates have been driven down to nothing like we are slowly seeing... Next step is another GFC when share markets go bang with all this extra money inflating stocks...
I'm not an expert but I was told it's not "banks" but the central / reserve bank buying government bonds, which is a critical difference to commercial banks buying government bonds, it's the government / central / reserve bank buying it's own bonds to put cash into the system. The money they buy the bonds with was printed yesterday, and if you let the process run wild you can end up like Zimbabwe with 1000% inflation, so the governments walk a tightrope trying to balance the rate they print cash with the rate of GDP and other external sources of income!

A friend I have likes to describe it as "Your backyard pool trying to fill itself with it's own water!"

The US Government writes itself an IOU every time it prints some more cash, one that will never be honored!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on January 23, 2020, 04:20:36 pm
Trump statistically has been a very successful president.

He's not respectable, but I have to say he's actually done the job better than anyone is giving him credit for.

Their economy is flourishing.  Unemployment is down.

Governments and leaders always claim it is their doing when things are going well (and someone else's fault when they're not....).

Funny thing is, economies go up and down regardless of who has the reins.  And while Government policy plays a part, it is only a relatively small contributor in large Capitalist countries like the US.  Do you think the big money-makers would have just shut up shop if Hilary had won?

The biggest problem is that Donald seems to actually think it is all down to him.......
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 23, 2020, 05:09:48 pm
Governments and leaders always claim it is their doing when things are going well (and someone else's fault when they're not....).

Funny thing is, economies go up and down regardless of who has the reins.  And while Government policy plays a part, it is only a relatively small contributor in large Capitalist countries like the US.  Do you think the big money-makers would have just shut up shop if Hilary had won?

The biggest problem is that Donald seems to actually think it is all down to him.......
Yes, I have a contact formerly from the Aust Tax Office that would 100% agree with what you state. She tells me Gov Policy takes years to have any real impact, the stats from tax collection tell her about 6~7 years on average to put a number on it. So any policy benefit or detriment usually and nearly always comes long after the policymaker has gone! In effect that means someone like Trump or Scotty from Marketing are claiming the good work of their predecessors.

There is one rather significant way to break the rule and force Gov policy to have an immediate impact, start a war!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 23, 2020, 07:08:12 pm
I'm not an expert but I was told it's not "banks" but the central / reserve bank buying government bonds, which is a critical difference to commercial banks buying government bonds, it's the government / central / reserve bank buying it's own bonds to put cash into the system. The money they buy the bonds with was printed yesterday, and if you let the process run wild you can end up like Zimbabwe with 1000% inflation, so the governments walk a tightrope trying to balance the rate they print cash with the rate of GDP and other external sources of income!

A friend I have likes to describe it as "Your backyard pool trying to fill itself with it's own water!"

The US Government writes itself an IOU every time it prints some more cash, one that will never be honored!

You are correct LP it is Central banks, I should have been more clear....Some CB's ie ECB actually purchase corporate bonds as well, Its about driving yields down by purchasing long dated govt bonds across the structure. It Influences yields and borrowing across the private and corporate sector after cash rates hit rock bottom.
Cant see us getting negative rates like in some other countries but I can see QE being used...unemployment rates will be the trigger IMO.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 25, 2020, 03:54:11 pm
Interesting perspective from the Europeans at Davos, they basically ignored Trump, he conducted news conferences to mostly the US media that came with him to the conference.

It looks like the Euro media has pegged his fake claims and accusations as school yard bullying.

Who'd have thunk that ignoring the bully was the best way to deal with him! :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on January 30, 2020, 11:50:24 am
https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/easy-target-for-trump-centrist-democrats-alarmed-by-sanders-surge-20200129-p53vu9.html

Democrats have lost the plot. Sanders is their only hope of beating Trump.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on March 18, 2020, 04:32:07 pm
Hmmm , it seems quantitative easing has now become a cheque directly to voters in the USA!   ???
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 12, 2020, 12:07:55 pm
I see Alan Jones is pulling the plug, he must have grown tired of fighting reality, will the Banana Bolt follow suit?

There are a few things in the world making the right wing shock jocks look like clowns at the moment, stuff they've gone suspiciously quiet about. Most notably the rapid and almost immediate decline in human induced pollution levels.

You know stuff like the CO2 emissions they claimed was caused by volcanoes, seems the volcanoes suffer badly from COVID-19! ::)

It must all be a Chinese and USA state conspiracy to mitigate horrendous emissions targets! :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 12, 2020, 02:15:31 pm
Well said, Spotted One. And how big a goose is Trump looking right now?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 12, 2020, 02:54:36 pm
Well said, Spotted One. And how big a goose is Trump looking right now?

As opposed to those other times when he looked like a polished, professional, accomplished leader ?  :o

For all of his very real and very significant faults, Trump is the symptom, not the disease. He is what gets vomited up when the system fails badly.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 12, 2020, 05:04:23 pm
https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/easy-target-for-trump-centrist-democrats-alarmed-by-sanders-surge-20200129-p53vu9.html

Democrats have lost the plot. Sanders is their only hope of beating Trump.

Could be some very nasty skeletons about to emerge from the Dem cupboard from what I've read? Anyway, apart from that, best of luck with Biden as their man.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on May 12, 2020, 06:59:35 pm
Trump will destroy him.  And his son in the process
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 12, 2020, 08:56:27 pm
This shouldn't even be a contest.
It will be.
How Biden is a better choice than many of those Democrats who dropped out defies logic.
But 'logic' and 'US politics' seem to be mutually exclusive.

The Dem VP choice will be significant.
They're (She's) going to have to take over at some stage. ;)


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 13, 2020, 07:59:09 am
The moneyball of politics!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on May 13, 2020, 08:43:08 am
This shouldn't even be a contest.
It will be.
How Biden is a better choice than many of those Democrats who dropped out defies logic.
But 'logic' and 'US politics' seem to be mutually exclusive.

The Dem VP choice will be significant.
They're (She's) going to have to take over at some stage. ;)




The more sensational the president, the better able to run the country the people who truly wield power are.  Whilst everyone is talking about trump they are not able to focus on the true power players of US politics.

The book the hitchikers guide to the galaxy and Zaphod Beeblebrox comes to mind.   Douglas Adams was on the money 30+ years ago.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 13, 2020, 11:18:19 am
As opposed to those other times when he looked like a polished, professional, accomplished leader ?  :o

For all of his very real and very significant faults, Trump is the symptom, not the disease. He is what gets vomited up when the system fails badly.

Ah, I was referring to 'right now', meaning even to his hardened supporters they, surely must admit it to themselves - should have made myself clearer.

Most of us have known since the mid 80s what an oily, shallow, 'checkered jacket and red tie' type he is and has always been. Oh, and his lies are legendary.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 13, 2020, 11:38:31 am
Ah, I was referring to 'right now', meaning even to his hardened supporters they, surely must admit it to themselves - should have made myself clearer.

Most of us have known since the mid 80s what an oily, shallow, 'checkered jacket and red tie' type he is and has always been. Oh, and his lies are legendary.

His hardened supporters know no better, hermetically sealed as they are behind Fox News, Baptist and Evangelical preachers, and a government completely at the mercy of corporate capitalists. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 13, 2020, 11:43:55 am
And a massively right wing judiciary, and an increasingly militarized and violent police force, and.............
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 13, 2020, 01:08:23 pm
And a massively right wing judiciary, and an increasingly militarized and violent police force, and.............
I listened to a podcast a month or so back in which the commentator acknowledge the bias and discrimination in the US system, in regards to justice and social equity, then finished off the report telling preaching to us how great of a country the USA was!

It was bizarre, listening to 45 minutes of reasoned and objective commentary, problems, fixes and issues, only to be delivered what was otherwise a deliberate position of ignorance and indifference as a conclusion!

The poor and downtrodden are there to be harvested!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 13, 2020, 02:01:58 pm
I listened to a podcast a month or so back in which the commentator acknowledge the bias and discrimination in the US system, in regards to justice and social equity, then finished off the report telling preaching to us how great of a country the USA was!

It was bizarre, listening to 45 minutes of reasoned and objective commentary, problems, fixes and issues, only to be delivered what was otherwise a deliberate position of ignorance and indifference as a conclusion!

The poor and downtrodden are there to be harvested!

The US is 100% a failed democracy, and well on the way to becoming a fascist state. So many things wrong with that country.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 13, 2020, 06:04:29 pm
The US is 100% a failed democracy, and well on the way to becoming a fascist state. So many things wrong with that country.

Democracy, as we think of it, is globally is under seige. A grim ideological struggle is being fought and all contestants involved will not give up easily. It saddens me to witness the cynicism and sheer greed on display and I worry about what kind of world my grandchildren will be forced to live in.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 13, 2020, 08:26:29 pm
The US markets will want Trump back in to kick start the economy again, no matter what you think of Trump and his political decisions he has corporate America on his team and I'd expect red neck USA ferals to also support his stand up to China approach.
The economic damage appears to be having greater weight than the death toll around the world.
eg That nut case running Brazil wont admit there is a problem and wants everyone working, Putin is ignoring the large death toll in Russia and sending everyone back to work and even here ScoMo wants to back out of jobkeeper etc to save a buck and send everyone back to work early even if it costs a few lives. A poll on the ABC had 67% of folk in Aus preferring to continue in lockdown than gamble on a early return.
Democracy has a price as does the lives of citizens around the world but at the moment its a buyers market and lives are not worth much anywhere, being part of a herd is a fairly accurate description of who we all are, when it comes down to the basics we are just cattle to the politicians worldwide, only difference is which paddock you graze in.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 14, 2020, 09:25:45 am
The US markets will want Trump back in to kick start the economy again, no matter what you think of Trump and his political decisions he has corporate America on his team and I'd expect red neck USA ferals to also support his stand up to China approach.
The economic damage appears to be having greater weight than the death toll around the world.
eg That nut case running Brazil wont admit there is a problem and wants everyone working, Putin is ignoring the large death toll in Russia and sending everyone back to work and even here ScoMo wants to back out of jobkeeper etc to save a buck and send everyone back to work early even if it costs a few lives. A poll on the ABC had 67% of folk in Aus preferring to continue in lockdown than gamble on a early return.
Democracy has a price as does the lives of citizens around the world but at the moment its a buyers market and lives are not worth much anywhere, being part of a herd is a fairly accurate description of who we all are, when it comes down to the basics we are just cattle to the politicians worldwide, only difference is which paddock you graze in.


Thoughtful and realistic piece, EB1... like it. Biden will be wanting to buddy-up to corporate America, quick smart if he's to have a chance.

I notice today that the orange Orangutan's son-in-law has floated the idea of delaying the Nov election. He's a cunning little turd, this Trump. He sees his popularity dwindling so starts laying groundwork for an election delay so he can 'wait-out' C-19, tell the gullible he beat it and is the only one to be trusted with making America 'great again.'

As for democracy, well, it works and it doesn't ...depends on the collective intelligence of the population and how well educated they are - that makes things especially hard for the Yanks.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on May 14, 2020, 10:06:11 am
There is no provision in the US constitution to postpone or delay a presidential election.

Biden knows it.  So do the democrats
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Professer E on May 14, 2020, 11:02:28 am
The boss is a big problem,  but the son in law,  quite frankly,  is the one who really scares me.  If I was really drawing a long bow,  you could interpret his musings as one with designs on some kind of hereditary dictatorship...... a la North Korea. How exactly did he get a role in the upper echelon of Government?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 14, 2020, 11:31:05 am
There is no provision in the US constitution to postpone or delay a presidential election.

Biden knows it.  So do the democrats

Yep, but never underestimate the rat-cunning of a cornered narcissist. The rest of us know that the election date wasn't even changed during WWs and is enshrined... but the orange Orangutan is capable of anything.

Professory - spot re son-in-law. One scary individual, with a very dark brown ring around the base of his neck.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 14, 2020, 11:31:30 am
The Democrats have been buddying up to corporate America for decades. The Clintons, Obama, Biden all as matey with the elites as any Republican. They appeal to dim witted liberals who still believe that voting actually involves genuine choice.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 14, 2020, 11:32:42 am
The Democrats have been buddying up to corporate America for decades. The Clintons, Obama, Biden all as matey with the elites as any Republican. They appeal to dim witted liberals who still believe that voting actually involves genuine choice.

I bet you love the work of George Carlin (one of my fave comedians, by the way).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 14, 2020, 11:32:56 am
Mike Pompeo, Pence and their ilk are way more dangerous than any Trump.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 14, 2020, 11:33:33 am
I bet you love the work of George Carlin (one of my fave comedians, by the way).

I've never watched him.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Tragic on May 14, 2020, 01:19:42 pm
It makes me want to vomit, but Trump will probably win.  His faults as a human being are numerous and grave, but his rat cunning is something else.  And he doesn't care what he destroys along the way.

I watched some 30/30 docos on Kayo (when I had it).  There were heaps of very interesting stories on there, so good that it didn't matter if i was a fan of the sport or knew the athlete at all, just fascinating stuff to watch.  Anyway, one of them was about the USFL, a short lived spring alternative to the NFL (that plays in 'the fall').  Long story short - Trump tried to buy an NFL team but couldn't, so bought a USFL team.  The USFL had carved out a nice niche and was doing well, but Trump wasn't happy being in the spring, it had to be in the fall coz that was the bigger stage.  He stooged enough of the other teams in the USFL to agree they should change to play in the fall and sue the NFL for being a monopoly in the fall comp.  He won the case, and was awarded a dollar, coz the case couldn't prove they'd actually lost anything anyway at that stage, coz they played in the spring so hadn't actually been disadvantaged... Anyway - he bankrupted the USFL, and destroyed the entire comp, and everyone in its livelihood.  His final words were something along the lines of 'it was a crap comp anyway, the fall comp is all that matters, and if it can't be in the fall comp, then stuff it'.  He's an A grade, self centred, selfish, butthole.  The kind of kid that would break your toy just so you couldn't enjoy it.

 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 14, 2020, 01:31:54 pm
The wilful naivety of the Trump supporters is mind blowing, they think he is looking after them but all he really offers is a short term sugar hit for which they are going to pay a massively high long term price. Trumps America is for the elite, not the Joe Average, but he has stooged Joe Average into voting for him!

Before his boosters go on the attack, this statement bears not relationship to Trump's opponents, claiming they are also bad or even worse doesn't make Trump better. It just highlights how pathetic the whole US situation has become!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 14, 2020, 01:56:25 pm
Anti establishment figures like Trump will always appeal when the establishment lets people down. Both the Democrats and Republicans have left common folk for dead, and its been happening for decades. Along comes a figure like Trump who has no allegiance to anything expect himself, and portrays himself as a person who won't be told what to do by anyone, dances to his own tune, will fix the country, the Democrats, the Republicans and everything in between. Add in nonsense like making America great again, and the usual scapegoating of minorities, and his appeal to a disenfranchised and ill informed body politic becomes obvious. It's happened often enough throughout history.

But focusing on him rather than the system is a waste of time.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 14, 2020, 02:19:06 pm
The Democrats have been buddying up to corporate America for decades. The Clintons, Obama, Biden all as matey with the elites as any Republican. They appeal to dim witted liberals who still believe that voting actually involves genuine choice.

Spot on.  And the major casualty is democracy itself.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 14, 2020, 02:21:25 pm
I bet you love the work of George Carlin (one of my fave comedians, by the way).

Love his work. Sadly no longer with us.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 14, 2020, 02:28:12 pm
Anti establishment figures like Trump will always appeal when the establishment lets people down. Both the Democrats and Republicans have left common folk for dead, and its been happening for decades. Along comes a figure like Trump who has no allegiance to anything expect himself, and portrays himself as a person who won't be told what to do by anyone, dances to his own tune, will fix the country, the Democrats, the Republicans and everything in between. Add in nonsense like making America great again, and the usual scapegoating of minorities, and his appeal to a disenfranchised and ill informed body politic becomes obvious. It's happened often enough throughout history.

But focusing on him rather than the system is a waste of time.

Anyone who doesn't primarily represent the interests of one or another section of the US billionaire class is very very unlikely to ever get to be POTUS.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 14, 2020, 02:48:19 pm
Anyone who doesn't primarily represent the interests of one or another section of the US billionaire class is very very unlikely to ever get to be POTUS.

Yes, and also very unlikely to get even close to being in influential positions in either party. I don't think either of them functions as a traditional party. The base has no power or relevance. You can't even get on the DNC unless you're a "super delegate", which basically means a lobbyist or similar. You need bucket loads of money to run for Pres.

Interesting to note that both parties agree on about 90% of proposed legislation, and in order to stimulate the idea that genuine choice exists, Fox News etc. has to stoke the fire of nothing issues under the broad umbrella of the Culture Wars i.e, same sex marriage, should we have a black / female / gay president etc. It's crazy stuff.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 14, 2020, 02:58:38 pm
@ Paul
Yes indeed. The media is owned by the same billionaires that control the political class.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Tragic on May 14, 2020, 04:10:22 pm
if you're into Michael Moore doco's his latest shines some light on US politics, and he pretty much agrees.  It's not farenheit 9/11, it's farenheit 11/9 this time, for a reason i can't remember.  The system is busted, the parties pretty much cater to those with the most wealth and power.  The parties can and do overturn the popular vote - they only allow party reps they sanction, regardless of what the people want.  the select few pretty much run the show to ensure the select few stay rich.  they're screwed.  i suspect the day will come when they regret allowing the general populace to have so many military weapons in their cupboards.  but i think things will have to get completely horrendous for that to happen.

if you look at dictatorships, and how they get started, it's generally been an uprising by a charismatic leader who cons the masses into fighting for him (on their behalf he says, as he shakes his fist).  perhaps if things turn to poo over there, and Trump is still around, but not in office, he'll con enough of the masses to storm the whitehouse and he'll make himself glorious leader for the rest of his life.  then he can hand the power over to his kids and fulfill his god given destiny (or whatever crazy dream drives him).

I wonder just how close to a meltdown the US is?  It is usually only when the situation is dire that circumstances allow crazy people to take power.  Trump was elected in 2016, so things can't have been great over there already.  Seriously, how did that even happen?  Add some covid fuel to the fire, and some really crazy stuff must be just around the corner. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 14, 2020, 06:40:13 pm
Anti establishment figures like Trump will always appeal when the establishment lets people down. Both the Democrats and Republicans have left common folk for dead, and its been happening for decades. Along comes a figure like Trump who has no allegiance to anything expect himself, and portrays himself as a person who won't be told what to do by anyone, dances to his own tune, will fix the country, the Democrats, the Republicans and everything in between. Add in nonsense like making America great again, and the usual scapegoating of minorities, and his appeal to a disenfranchised and ill informed body politic becomes obvious. It's happened often enough throughout history.

But focusing on him rather than the system is a waste of time.

I don't think it's either/or, Pauly... it's both the system - in this case the US system, and the person - in this case, the orange Orangutan. How does a system become that dysfunctional that a psychologically ill-equipped buffoon/criminal can skate into the White House on a 40 year slope of bullsh1te? A clean shaven Rasputin with a red tie he might well be! Only he's fckng the entire country and not just the Tsarina.

You've mentioned Naom Chomsky. Almost 30 years ago I sat through the long, laborious yet brilliant, Manufacturing Consent. And was a Chompsky fan thereafter. But also looked for other commentators who could explain America but with less verbiage.

Chompsky is right and accurate but being a deeply contemplative human being who can actually see the many factors influencing whatever the 'system' is, he tackles deeply complex explanations dragging each syllable and word up from his boot laces. In a 'sound bite' culture he also tends to not be so attractive to the uneducated masses with his superior intelligence, unmatched academia and lacerating account of the truth. Probably why M. Moore is so popular, he gives the 'populist' culture dashes of entertainment with their unpalatable truth. Another commentator of note on this subject is Neil Postman... I bet you've read, 'Amusing Ourselves To Death.' One of my favourite books to this day, although having read it in the mid 80s (oh, and if anything, what he discusses has only gotten worse).

I recall John Pilger saying, when responding to a question regarding how does he get away with such controversial articles and discourses, probably two decades ago, that as a self sufficient investigative journalist there are no clackers to kiss (my words) so no-one to interfere with his passion for truth. Malcolm Moore is in the same boat (funding wise). I wonder how many Murdoch journalists feel they've sold their talents to the devil? Or are unsavoury pr1cks to begin with so buddying up to Murdoch (and the many, many of his ilk) suits them fine.

That's probably why I like the political and social commentary of George Carlin... a comedy great who can sharply summarise with great skill... if you're so inclined, here's a sample BUT if you don't like 'salty' language, George mightn't be for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9CjBtv7j78

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 14, 2020, 06:41:51 pm
Love his work. Sadly no longer with us.

I think I've seen all his political, social commentary stuff, Fluffy One. Maybe one day we can enjoy a 'beverage' together and watch George at his best.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on May 14, 2020, 10:39:41 pm
I have many American cousins, mostly in Texas and related to me through my father’s family.  They are a diverse lot, but what they do share is a loathing of Trump and his macho populist agenda.

They are vehement and outspoken in their opposition to Trump and what they see as his attack on their democracy.  What I’m not sure about is how widespread their views are.  Those views are certainly shared by my American friends, but they are scientists and archaeologists and certainly don’t represent a majority.

I’m not entirely sure that Paul’s assessment of US democracy is accurate but I think that it is clear that it is struggling under the constraints of an 18th century constitution.  Our 19th century version doesn’t do us any favours either.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 15, 2020, 08:08:41 am
...
I’m not entirely sure that Paul’s assessment of US democracy is accurate but I think that it is clear that it is struggling under the constraints of an 18th century constitution.  Our 19th century version doesn’t do us any favours either.


You can listen to guys like Chris Hedges, Chomsky and maybe Richard Wolff, and form your own conclusions.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 15, 2020, 09:05:42 am
I have many American cousins, mostly in Texas and related to me through my father’s family.  They are a diverse lot, but what they do share is a loathing of Trump and his macho populist agenda.

They are vehement and outspoken in their opposition to Trump and what they see as his attack on their democracy.  What I’m not sure about is how widespread their views are.  Those views are certainly shared by my American friends, but they are scientists and archaeologists and certainly don’t represent a majority.

I’m not entirely sure that Paul’s assessment of US democracy is accurate but I think that it is clear that it is struggling under the constraints of an 18th century constitution.  Our 19th century version doesn’t do us any favours either.


Important points you raise, David. I have a number of friends in the US also and even a couple of clients. And they sure aint enamoured with the Orangutan. Though one buddy, from Arlington Texas as it happens, is a Republican and does make excuses for Trump... but also sees that the bloke is more for himself than anyone else. Another buddy, coincidentally from Arlington Virginia, reminded me when expressing amazement at the election of Trump that the US was settled by religious zealots and that influence is strong in around half the population, who are vulnerable to accepting anything an 'authority' says and are soaked in nationalism/patriotism which makes them very easy to manipulate. The writings of John Taylor Gatto, former NY teacher, help us to understand the poor performance of education in the US and how it actually contributes to the dumbing down of the population.

But the one thing I noticed when I was there for a month in '93 was the amazing hospitality and generosity. I stayed, mostly, in homes with families and they were amazing. Although I am a six foot, white, heterosexual male, and that sure did help... embarrassingly so. The prejudice against so many minorities was palpable. And I got the distinct impression travelling from NY to LA that human life doesn't mean as much in the US as it does here or in Europe for that matter.

I guess my point is the US is a paradox. A place of extremes. I met many socially and politically aware folks there but also many angry and downright dangerous folks. The Vietnam war protests were huge in the late sixties and were bold and courageous, but the response from authorities was hysterical and the shooting of protesting uni students reminds us of the other extreme in the US. As do their archaic and obscene gun laws.

The Orangutan knew how to manipulate enough of them to get into power and will be using the same tricks in his attempt to stay in power.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 15, 2020, 11:04:13 am
The pleasantness or otherwise of US folks at the micro / individual level is not really the point, nor the opinions of the ever dwindling and dubiously appointed liberal class. Taking a big picture / broader view, consider this random collection of fun facts, bearing in mind this is currently the wealthiest country on earth :

- Trump should have been impeached on the first day he took office, via the Emoluments Clause. He wasn't. Breakdown
               of the rule of law, or selective appliaction of the law ? You decide.
- the gap between rich and poor has never been higher in the US than now
- they have the most expensive healthcare in the developed world, with the worst health outcomes
- real wages have stagnated or declined over the last 30-35 years
- facts such as unemployment rates are presented in a way that conceals the real numbers. E.g,
                   if you work 1 hour/week, you're considered employed.
                   if you work 28 hrs/week at Walmart, it puts you below the poverty line
                   if you stop looking for work after 4 weeks of searching, you are automatically erased from the
                       unemployment numbers
                   unemployment numbers don't count students, don't count prisoners, don't count retired people who have
                   gone back to doing temp work to make ends meet etc.
- the US has the highest number of guns in civilian ownership in the world, both per capita and in total
- among the highest suicide rate in the developed world
- they have reached the highest level of recorded debt in history
-they have the highest number of prisoners of any country, both per capita and in total. Half of US prison population
               never harmed another person. 94% never get a jury trial. They have 25% of the world’s prison population, yet
               5% of the world’s population - mostly people of colour.
- there is a clear push to roll back civil liberties, following a very hard right, fundamentalist Christian agenda, as exemplified by the appointment of Brett Kavanaugh - one of his main orders of business is to overturn the landmark Roe v Wade case from 1973.

Consider yourselves warned.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 15, 2020, 11:06:40 am
I see the problem as one of anonymity.

Trump's the front man for a bigger more vicious system, Trump's blatant and very public about his attitudes, they are the equal of if not worse than Trump but they are faceless!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 15, 2020, 12:15:03 pm
You salute the rank not the man, you dont have to like Trump to vote for him......we have friends in Oklahoma and they dont like Trump as a man but still vote for him based on the alternatives.
The other problem is Trump lovers are guaranteed to vote....the rest are a lottery to even bother making the effort on polling day.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 15, 2020, 01:26:29 pm
You salute the rank not the man, you dont have to like Trump to vote for him......we have friends in Oklahoma and they dont like Trump as a man but still vote for him based on the alternatives.
The other problem is Trump lovers are guaranteed to vote....the rest are a lottery to even bother making the effort on polling day.
Unfortunately that is just highlighting the broken US system, the vote is apathetic and rewards incompetence!

As I said the other day I'll reconfirm, my comments about how bad Trump is do not reflect the relative quality of the opposition.

They need a civil war, or they will be driven to global war by the ruling class and that war might not be winnable!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on May 15, 2020, 01:37:58 pm
The pleasantness or otherwise of US folks at the micro / individual level is not really the point.

Like hell it isn't.  I'm married to one and know hundreds more.  Baggers was correct.  At the core, they are an extremely welcoming bunch and hopelessly polite ... almost too much so.

They can effect change.  They should.

But they are equally fearfully ignorant of the world outside their borders.  Forget the personalities holding government (that's rubbish), it is the system is broken.  Very badly.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 15, 2020, 01:51:31 pm
Like hell it isn't.  I'm married to one and know hundreds more.  Baggers was correct.  At the core, they are an extremely welcoming bunch and hopelessly polite ... almost too much so.

They can effect change.  They should.

But they are equally fearfully ignorant of the world outside their borders.  Forget the personalities holding government (that's rubbish), it is the system is broken.  Very badly.

I know the system is broken, which has been my point for a few pages. Trump is vulgar and frankly beneath contempt, but whatever problems he creates pale in comparison to the bigger picture.

The people you and others know may be the loveliest people on earth, but that's not the point. The holistic view, the numbers, facts etc. point to an empire in deep decline, and a society with deep divisions, and major problems.


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 15, 2020, 03:20:14 pm
The people you and others know may be the loveliest people on earth, but that's not the point. The holistic view, the numbers, facts etc. point to an empire in deep decline, and a society with deep divisions, and major problems.
I like most of the people I've met from the USA, but as a country they have some massive nationalistic failings. I've spent a bit of time there across several states, California, Arizona, Sth/Nth Carolina, Georgia, Wisconsin, Illinois and Michigan.

Much like Australians they are fiercely nationalistic when criticised, even more so because they will defend their politicians under foreign criticism. In general they are far more religious than Australians, while remaining far more introspective.

However, there is a shared trait that is common in many without being ubiquitous, and that is painting the world with the USA's troubles. All the faults they have everybody else has projected on them, you'll be lectured continuously about how you have to lift your game, and if you do not learn to be indifferent to this criticism you'll find travelling and living there very frustrating. Once you realise/accept that when they lecture you they are really talking about themselves, it all becomes tolerable. I was taught this by an UK Ex.Patriot of Indian heritage who is now living in Sth Carolina.

I agree with the politeness descriptions, if you get specific advice it'll generally be presented in a way that suggests you are making a mistake, but that is nearly always experience based. Mostly, if they do not know the answer they will stay quiet even if they see you heading towards trouble, it is your freedom and right to fall, and generally not their place to save you from failing, but this can make them appear dispassionate.

PS; On encountering "internationals", many who frequently travel can appear opinionated and boorish, it's really only passing on personal experiences most of the time.  Excessive travelling is like life on steroids.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 15, 2020, 03:42:36 pm
https://au.news.yahoo.com/shocking-scenes-45-minutes-after-bars-open-in-virus-hit-wisconsin-051212086.html

Locals in Wisconsin clearly not understanding social distancing, Trump and those folk probably deserve each other.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 16, 2020, 08:52:24 am
https://au.news.yahoo.com/shocking-scenes-45-minutes-after-bars-open-in-virus-hit-wisconsin-051212086.html

Locals in Wisconsin clearly not understanding social distancing, Trump and those folk probably deserve each other.


Aka, the lunatic fringe.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 16, 2020, 11:14:31 am
I think I've seen all his political, social commentary stuff, Fluffy One. Maybe one day we can enjoy a 'beverage' together and watch George at his best.

Sounds good Baggers. It's been a few years since I've watched any of his stuff. Pity he's not still around, plenty of new material for him to work with!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 16, 2020, 07:27:02 pm
I know the system is broken, which has been my point for a few pages. Trump is vulgar and frankly beneath contempt, but whatever problems he creates pale in comparison to the bigger picture.

The people you and others know may be the loveliest people on earth, but that's not the point. The holistic view, the numbers, facts etc. point to an empire in deep decline, and a society with deep divisions, and major problems.




The US, Pauly, has had deep divisions since the Civil War and hence major problems have become a way of life for most. And their decline has been steady for a couple of decades now.

I disagree totally with you however when suggesting that whatever problems the Orangutan creates pale next to the bigger picture. I don't see them as mutually exclusive. And I don't underestimate the importance of courageous leadership, visionary leadership... leadership that encourages and creates inclusiveness. Trumps leadership (**cough, splutter, gag **) is totally Machiavellian and exploits, manipulates and feeds the dysfunction and fears of the bigger picture you mention, of a fractured system, a system in crisis with the worst possible buffoon in charge.

Never underestimate the power of great leadership and its ability to affect meaningful change. There is evidence of this in other countries but the US is going to have to come up with someone, and quickly, to pull together a crumbling empire. Where there's life, there's hope. Personally, I'm not optimistic but not dismissive of the possibility. There are some very powerful corporate leaders in the US who may come to the fore at the 11th hour. I wouldn't rule out a revolution in China, either. The business leaders there would not be impressed with the problems created by the CCP.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 16, 2020, 10:12:06 pm
The US, Pauly, has had deep divisions since the Civil War and hence major problems have become a way of life for most. And their decline has been steady for a couple of decades now.

I disagree totally with you however when suggesting that whatever problems the Orangutan creates pale next to the bigger picture. I don't see them as mutually exclusive. And I don't underestimate the importance of courageous leadership, visionary leadership... leadership that encourages and creates inclusiveness. Trumps leadership (**cough, splutter, gag **) is totally Machiavellian and exploits, manipulates and feeds the dysfunction and fears of the bigger picture you mention, of a fractured system, a system in crisis with the worst possible buffoon in charge.

Never underestimate the power of great leadership and its ability to affect meaningful change. There is evidence of this in other countries but the US is going to have to come up with someone, and quickly, to pull together a crumbling empire. .......................................

Your belief in the one man / great leader theory is one that I simply do not share. This difference of opinion is what caused our big blue on the senior coach issue, and I see little value in returning to the scene of the crime. Trump, Biden, Obama etc. have as much power as they're allowed to have, and whilst I'm not suggesting that Trump has no power or that he's harmless, I stand by my original statement - his power is not nearly as great as the corporate right wing oligarchs who really run the show.

Trump is not Machiavellian - he has no ideology except narcissism. He's not dumb, but he's a undisciplined, blatant, loose cannon, and has amazingly convinced the US population that he's an outsider just like them. The office of President means nothing to him IMO, which is why he treats it like trash.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Tragic on May 17, 2020, 08:22:04 am
Your belief in the one man / great leader theory is one that I simply do not share. This difference of opinion is what caused our big blue on the senior coach issue, and I see little value in returning to the scene of the crime. Trump, Biden, Obama etc. have as much power as they're allowed to have, and whilst I'm not suggesting that Trump has no power or that he's harmless, I stand by my original statement - his power is not nearly as great as the corporate right wing oligarchs who really run the show.

Trump is not Machiavellian - he has no ideology except narcissism. He's not dumb, but he's a undisciplined, blatant, loose cannon, and has amazingly convinced the US population that he's an outsider just like them. The office of President means nothing to him IMO, which is why he treats it like trash.

I tend to agree on this one with you Pauly, although we've had the odd disagreement before on the footy.  From my understanding (have been taking a real interest in US politics and social issues for a few years now, but never been there), the system itself is screwed.  It would take a person of monumental talent and charisma to even make a small positive impression on the US political system.  Money is far too deeply embedded in every aspect of it.  Campaign money at all levels of government comes from big business, wealthy families, and special interest pressure groups, and they don't give for no reason.  They give because they expect their interests to be looked after.  A very rich person can use his/her own money to run for president and personally avoid those interests, but the president is only one person, the rest of the corrupt system is running the same way it always has. It's running on dirty money, and those in power keep the machine chewing up the masses for the financial benefit of the already rich. 

The people are desperate for a thing they call a 'living wage' - which is to have full time employment and be able to afford the basics to survive.  Many full time workers are classified as living in poverty, all thanks to big business getting tax cuts, and the worker having shizen minimum wage.  And then there's their health care system, where again big insurance companies, wealthy hospitals and docs, and big pharma don't give a crap about anyone who can't afford to pay.  And guns.  Guns, guns, guns.  The NRA doesn't care how many kids die at school. 

They are victims of a system that's been twisted to benefit those in power for generation after generation, and those who have the money and power will do anything to keep it that way because they don't want to get kicked out of the control room of the machine.  Then they'd be fodder themselves. 

Maybe this pandemic will bring these inequities to a head, and maybe some good will end up coming from it.  But don't count on it.  The worse things get the more those in control will protect their own interests.  It will take a proper uprising to make any real change over there I fear.  And that will require a leader who can rally all those crazies with their guns.  I hate to say it, but it will take an orangutan to do it, and he'll only pretend to have his supporters interests at heart...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 17, 2020, 09:26:47 am
Your belief in the one man / great leader theory is one that I simply do not share. This difference of opinion is what caused our big blue on the senior coach issue, and I see little value in returning to the scene of the crime. Trump, Biden, Obama etc. have as much power as they're allowed to have, and whilst I'm not suggesting that Trump has no power or that he's harmless, I stand by my original statement - his power is not nearly as great as the corporate right wing oligarchs who really run the show.

Trump is not Machiavellian - he has no ideology except narcissism. He's not dumb, but he's a undisciplined, blatant, loose cannon, and has amazingly convinced the US population that he's an outsider just like them. The office of President means nothing to him IMO, which is why he treats it like trash.

I'm pretty sure you'll find that most narcissists are also Machiavellian... by default.

Yep, we'll agree to disagree on this one re leadership. I've seen courageous and visionary leaders alter cultures and systems in organisations and nations. Takes time, but the right people can and do achieve remarkable things. Bad cultures and bad systems were often created by bad and corrupt leadership.

Perhaps I'm too optimistic but I do refuse to throw my arms in the air with defeat when things look bleak and a system is badly broken. Yes, the US is in a mire, so bad that even the alternative to the Republicans look pretty impotent. And there are huge numbers of them adhering stoically to appalling values and beliefs. But to give up is to hand them the keys. If you're going to go down, at least go down fighting (for what is believed to be right).

If we look closer to home, it was great leadership from a certain individual who brought significant change to the Tiggers a few years back (Balme), and those changes brought in were sweeping and cascaded throughout the place... totally altering systems and culture. Leading Teams altered culture/system at the Pussycats - and that was one man with a whiteboard. There are plenty of examples of superior leadership from one person altering, for the better, an entire system or culture.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 17, 2020, 10:37:10 am
@ Baggers, Balme didn't just apparate at the Tigers out of thin air . Peggy O'Neal, Gale, and I'm sure others worked as a team to get good people to fill important positions, worked as a team to identify problems, didn't just panic like sh1t clubs do, and made good decisions as a result.

There are some dubious types who like to believe that corporate, capitalist America is the end of history. But many empires have come and gone - Greek, Roman, Ottoman, British empires (to name a few), all had their moment and then they die. America is next.

Chris Hedges believes (and I agree with him) that there is no way out through the election system. If folks want genuine change, we need to use the only bargaining chip we have, which is numbers. Non violent, worldwide, mass civil disobedience that disrupts and cripples the system is the only hope we have of effecting change, and even that may not work. Meaningful change won't come from the inside, you can be quite certain of that.

@ Tragic - nice post. I agree.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 17, 2020, 01:58:23 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfxukEMunNs
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 17, 2020, 02:16:58 pm
The US media can't handle Trump because they assume at some stage they'll get a truthful answer and force him to fall on his sword, Trump knows truth doesn't matter and doesn't care about being called a liar.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 17, 2020, 06:11:30 pm
@ Baggers, Balme didn't just apparate at the Tigers out of thin air . Peggy O'Neal, Gale, and I'm sure others worked as a team to get good people to fill important positions, worked as a team to identify problems, didn't just panic like sh1t clubs do, and made good decisions as a result.

There are some dubious types who like to believe that corporate, capitalist America is the end of history. But many empires have come and gone - Greek, Roman, Ottoman, British empires (to name a few), all had their moment and then they die. America is next.

Chris Hedges believes (and I agree with him) that there is no way out through the election system. If folks want genuine change, we need to use the only bargaining chip we have, which is numbers. Non violent, worldwide, mass civil disobedience that disrupts and cripples the system is the only hope we have of effecting change, and even that may not work. Meaningful change won't come from the inside, you can be quite certain of that.

@ Tragic - nice post. I agree.

Your first paragraph - exactly right... Balme may well have put the finishing touches (100th monkey effect?) on what Peggy and Brendan were doing but it was leadership from one or three people who created change. It was the direction and influence of leadership that changed the direction of the Tiggers (ditto Pussycats). Effective leadership can change things, quickly. This is my central point. Effective, visionary and courageous leadership can change the direction of clubs, businesses and governments very quickly.

Just look through corporations and nations that have changed for the better and you'll find new leadership steering a new course and managing the, sometimes significant, changes. The history books are full of such examples. And the reverse is also true... look at the history books for the numerous examples of an individual who steered their club, company or nation to destruction.

As I mentioned earlier, it's not an either/or situation. We minimise poor and dangerous leadership from any individual at our peril - regardless of where it resides. Just look at the dreadful examples the Orangutan is providing to future leaders. The only favour the Orangutan has provided to the US is to show, clearly, the inherit flaws in their political system (that have existed for many years).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 17, 2020, 06:16:09 pm
The US media can't handle Trump because they assume at some stage they'll get a truthful answer and force him to fall on his sword, Trump knows truth doesn't matter and doesn't care about being called a liar.

Absolutely. He knows that if you tell enough lies, frequently enough, that they'll heap too high for others to pin him down... in the short-term. We can only hope that in time he's caught up with and exposed.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Macca37 on May 17, 2020, 07:30:18 pm
Our last visit to the US was late last year when my wife and I visited a number of midwest and southwest states.  Without exception we found people to be kind and courteous, and without exception they believed the US to be the greatest country in the world.

The vast majority in the fifty to seventy five age group were rusted on Trump followers.  Many listened every morning to Rush Limbaugh because "he is able to take complex matters and simplify them for us".

Few had been overseas and quite a number had not ventured outside their own state.

There was a superficial interest in Australia and Europe, possibly because of their lack of knowledge.  Free to air tv usually concentrated on local and state matters with Fox providing right wing views almost entirely related to the US.

We were left speechless at the end of a Diana Ross concert in Las Vegas when the middle aged couple sitting behind us queried our accent. When we said we were from Australia the wife said she had never heard of it.

Years ago I was told that the US is a first world country with a third world underbelly.  I've seen nothing to change that view
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 17, 2020, 07:44:17 pm
Your first paragraph - exactly right... Balme may well have put the finishing touches (100th monkey effect?) on what Peggy and Brendan were doing but it was leadership from one or three people who created change. It was the direction and influence of leadership that changed the direction of the Tiggers (ditto Pussycats). Effective leadership can change things, quickly. This is my central point. Effective, visionary and courageous leadership can change the direction of clubs, businesses and governments very quickly.

Just look through corporations and nations that have changed for the better and you'll find new leadership steering a new course and managing the, sometimes significant, changes. The history books are full of such examples. And the reverse is also true... look at the history books for the numerous examples of an individual who steered their club, company or nation to destruction.

As I mentioned earlier, it's not an either/or situation. We minimise poor and dangerous leadership from any individual at our peril - regardless of where it resides. Just look at the dreadful examples the Orangutan is providing to future leaders. The only favour the Orangutan has provided to the US is to show, clearly, the inherit flaws in their political system (that have existed for many years).

Mr Shano, all that may well be true, but I would argue that Trump, Reagan, Obama, Biden etc. are not there to lead. They are there to deliver the lines others have prepared for them, act out the role of leader, and distract the population with everything from debased, low level trash talk (Trump), to feel good, social platitudes (most Democrats) and everything in between. You can only lead if you have power to lead, and in my opinion, these types don't have that, which is exactly the way the corporate elites have arranged it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on May 18, 2020, 10:03:37 am
Mr Shano, all that may well be true, but I would argue that Trump, Reagan, Obama, Biden etc. are not there to lead. They are there to deliver the lines others have prepared for them, act out the role of leader, and distract the population with everything from debased, low level trash talk (Trump), to feel good, social platitudes (most Democrats) and everything in between. You can only lead if you have power to lead, and in my opinion, these types don't have that, which is exactly the way the corporate elites have arranged it.

From my readings and research Paul I would sincerely agree with you. The "elected" president is strictly retail - a salesperson there to sell the elite message to the masses and to perpetuate their sort of Truman Show world of make believe. The real power is with the elites and their enforcer networks such as the deep state and NGO/thinktanks etc.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 18, 2020, 10:29:20 am
Mr Shano, all that may well be true, but I would argue that Trump, Reagan, Obama, Biden etc. are not there to lead. They are there to deliver the lines others have prepared for them, act out the role of leader, and distract the population with everything from debased, low level trash talk (Trump), to feel good, social platitudes (most Democrats) and everything in between. You can only lead if you have power to lead, and in my opinion, these types don't have that, which is exactly the way the corporate elites have arranged it.

[/quote)

Believe me, Pauly, I totally get where you're coming from - plenty of 'puppet' leaders in the world - agree. But that doesn't mean all leaders are 'controlled' by others and leadership per say. This is what I mean by it not being either/or but rather, 'and.' There is both influential leadership from individuals in the world and there is 'controlled by others' individual leaders in the world. To me Trump is a danger for many reasons, none the least for the dreadful example he gives our young. He'd give narcissists the world over inspiration and hope.

I, like many, am under no illusions re the mess the US is in. I believe if you put it in % terms easily half the people of the US are poorly educated, indoctrinated and just plum ignorant. I also believe around 35% are socially aware and represent 'hope'... as slim as that may be.

I mentioned previously the incredible hospitality I was afforded whilst in the US in '93... I also encountered breathtaking ignorance. Incredibly a teacher I was talking with in Marylands, when hearing I was from Oz, asked about Germany and Hungry! I was asked if Kangaroos could fly, by an adult... and so it goes.

Where we differ, maybe, is that I see a glimmer of hope for the US in the short term. In the long term I also believe that unless something amazing happens the US will go the way of the Roman Empire etc - yes, it's already well on the way. If China gets its act together they will no doubt be the next world power (if they're not moving to that already)... many astute business leaders in China must be seeing the flaws in the CCP rule, and how much loot it is costing them and will continue to cost them.



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 18, 2020, 11:04:08 am
Mr Shano, we could keep boxing on till doomsday.

The CCP has done fantastically well for China. They went from being among the poorest countries in the world pre 1949 to being a powerhouse that as you say, is second behind the US and will overtake them pretty soon. Despite the communist fear spread by dimwits, China has always been "open for business" under the pinks. They are the textbook example of state capitalism. Clearly they've paid a price, but their economic growth would be the envy of every country on the planet. They have always encouraged foreign investment, and with a population that is highly educated, hard working, disciplined, obedient, and most of all cheap, the attraction for overseas companies is obvious. Unfortunately that new found wealth isn't being shared fairly (workers employed by Apple and many others are basically slave labour with lousy conditions), but that's another story.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on May 18, 2020, 11:44:35 am
... to being a powerhouse that as you say, is second behind the US and will overtake them pretty soon.

Reckon that's rather fanciful .... the United States is FAR out in front of a technically deficient CCP.   In the air force and in space for starters. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 18, 2020, 12:04:58 pm
Reckon that's rather fanciful .... the United States is FAR out in front of a technically deficient CCP.   In the air force and in space for starters. 

I was referring solely to standard economic measures :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_China
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on May 18, 2020, 02:46:56 pm
I was referring solely to standard economic measures :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_China

OK :)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 18, 2020, 06:06:46 pm
Mr Shano, we could keep boxing on till doomsday.

The CCP has done fantastically well for China. They went from being among the poorest countries in the world pre 1949 to being a powerhouse that as you say, is second behind the US and will overtake them pretty soon. Despite the communist fear spread by dimwits, China has always been "open for business" under the pinks. They are the textbook example of state capitalism. Clearly they've paid a price, but their economic growth would be the envy of every country on the planet. They have always encouraged foreign investment, and with a population that is highly educated, hard working, disciplined, obedient, and most of all cheap, the attraction for overseas companies is obvious. Unfortunately that new found wealth isn't being shared fairly (workers employed by Apple and many others are basically slave labour with lousy conditions), but that's another story.

We seem to have swerved into a different direction, Pauly... but, hey, I do appreciate our 'dances.'

Yes, China is the consummate corporate state, without any pretense to democracy or human rights. In China, you speak out against the state and you vanish, or worse (ah, those pesky doctors who spoke out about C-19 in the early days. I wonder where they are!). Their values are very different to ours and their system, economically speaking, is purring along nicely without any interference from any charismatic, individual leadership.

Interesting world, interesting times we live in, eh Pauly?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 29, 2020, 12:09:26 pm
So Trumpy Wumpy wants to sue Twittery Wittery because it's being Meany Weany!   :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 29, 2020, 04:38:44 pm
He's got more problems than twitter. ;)
They're in 'more trouble than the early explorers' over there with looting and an out of control virus in many areas.
Not a lot of social distancing in a mob. :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 29, 2020, 05:01:52 pm
One of the jokes of the year, the orange Orangutan wanting to make social media more accountable. :o  :o  :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: crashlander on May 29, 2020, 06:12:47 pm
Our last visit to the US was late last year when my wife and I visited a number of midwest and southwest states.  Without exception we found people to be kind and courteous, and without exception they believed the US to be the greatest country in the world.

The vast majority in the fifty to seventy five age group were rusted on Trump followers.  Many listened every morning to Rush Limbaugh because "he is able to take complex matters and simplify them for us".

Few had been overseas and quite a number had not ventured outside their own state.

There was a superficial interest in Australia and Europe, possibly because of their lack of knowledge.  Free to air tv usually concentrated on local and state matters with Fox providing right wing views almost entirely related to the US.

We were left speechless at the end of a Diana Ross concert in Las Vegas when the middle aged couple sitting behind us queried our accent. When we said we were from Australia the wife said she had never heard of it.

Years ago I was told that the US is a first world country with a third world underbelly.  I've seen nothing to change that view
I can understand that. When I was travelling through Europe in 1987 I met a number of Americans. You could generally hear them a long time before you saw them (although there were a few with volume control).
A quote I heard while I was in a Youth Hostel in Brussel: "Australia! I've been to Australia. Vienna's the capital, isn't it?"
Same day, different American, "You speak real good English for an Australian!" (She thought I spoke German, that I came from Austria. I do speak some, but...)
In Vienna, in the tourist shops, there were t-shirts with Kangaroos in Lederhosen. The comment was 'We have no kangaroos here!" (Please imagine a strong German accent.)
(In those days my body could handle Youth Hostels. Alas, no more.)

I've never met an unpleasant American, although I've heard a few demanding McDonald's type service in Spanish and Portuguese restaurants. They just don't understand that foreigners do thing differently, on the whole.
Their education system is very America-centric. Most other places are not real (except Canada and Mexico). Those that know something of their past are very knowledgeable about that place, but they didn't read about it school. Their ignorance of the world is amazing.

In a lot of ways, Trump does describe a significant group of Americans. That is frightening.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: kruddler on May 29, 2020, 06:44:28 pm
He's got more problems than twitter. ;)
They're in 'more trouble than the early explorers' over there with looting and an out of control virus in many areas.
Not a lot of social distancing in a mob. :o


Survival of the fittest.

USA are showing themselves to largely be ignorant, and they are suffering the consequences. No thanks to the oompa loompa running the joint. Or should that be ruining the joint?

In relation to an earlier post you made about Biden (not) being the best leader.....when was the last time it was about the best? Isn't it just who has the deepest pockets?

Their system is so severly broken. If they keep going down the path they are going, i wouldn't be surprised to see the 'UNITED' States end up in ceasing to be made up of 50 states. There will be a secession
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 29, 2020, 07:43:35 pm
You're not just whistling Dixie.
 ;)
There are deep divisions, but they were there before Trump and he's just a catalyst.
Pop in a pandemic and you have a recipe for disaster.
As a group our people are pretty similar... except in the way we pronounce 'castle' and the fact that the only true scallop is a potato slice covered in batter. :D
The USA ,apart from a similar common language, is more like 50 different micro-nations.
Add in strong and assertive minorities and it creates a situation we really cant appreciate,

In relation to Biden, my concern is that he gives Trump a chance when in fact he shouldn't have one.
The guy will be lucky to last half a term, should he be successful in gaining the top job.
He should have been the nominee 4 years ago.
Now he should be looking at aged care.
The one positive is that unlike Trump he will no doubt have folks around him that will be the ones with the real control.
If Biden v Trump is the best they can do they are truly...well you know. :(
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on May 29, 2020, 08:41:56 pm
Crash summed it up perfectly.  Their education system is pathetic; that they could let kids leave school without the slightest clue of what's beyond their "lower 48" is a staggering indictment ....

I'm not into sinking the boot into Trump or Biden (what's the point?), but they're both incompetent; and God knows we have our fair share.  

Funniest thing ... I was working for TAA, a Yank flew into Melbourne and asked me about SYD flights.  Told him a strike had just been called and all operations were cancelled for the following day.

"Oh, OK, I'll take a cab".  Explained all the particulars of how that was gonna be one hell of a journey, he hired a silver top anyway.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 30, 2020, 07:43:56 am
Informed Americans will be voting for Howie Hawkins.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 30, 2020, 08:29:55 am
Informed Americans will be voting for Howie Hawkins.

Good luck finding enough of these 'informed Americans' you speak of, Pauly. 😉 😌

Biden or Trump? Holy cr@p is that nation stuffed.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 30, 2020, 10:39:39 am
For me, voting for a Hawkins type figure serves two purposes :

1. a vote for someone who most closely shares my values
2. raising public awareness and building popular opposition to the political and corporate elites, who have left the average person for dead. It's not really about what can be achieved in a single election cycle - the amount of work that needs undoing and reconfiguring is too big for that. It's really about getting these ideas out there and part of everyday, majority discourse.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 30, 2020, 02:40:57 pm
Informed Americans will be voting for Howie Hawkins.

Howie has some Russia phobia, he is a bit too unhinged for me and I reckon is stuck in the Cold War period.....too many
conspiracy theories. Biden is corrupt and and an idiot....men and women are created er " you know the thing"...thats one of Joe's classics...he still thinks Margaret Thatcher is running England, makes Trump look a genius.

Trump is a shoe in if its Trump vs Biden.....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on May 30, 2020, 04:35:22 pm
Howie has some Russia phobia, he is a bit too unhinged for me and I reckon is stuck in the Cold War period.....too many
conspiracy theories......................

We Lefties are all a little unhinged. That constant desire for eco justice (i.e economic and ecological) tends to have a deleterious effect on one's psyche. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 30, 2020, 05:56:02 pm
For me, voting for a Hawkins type figure serves two purposes :

1. a vote for someone who most closely shares my values
2. raising public awareness and building popular opposition to the political and corporate elites, who have left the average person for dead. It's not really about what can be achieved in a single election cycle - the amount of work that needs undoing and reconfiguring is too big for that. It's really about getting these ideas out there and part of everyday, majority discourse.

You know I agree with you, Pauly. It is how change comes about, a little dissension, discourse, protestation at a time, or even a non-violent revolution (but they're hard to come by). But when I look at the US, I, along with so many others, just shake our heads in disbelief... at their national ignorance on global issues helped in no small way by a religious/myopic education system, unswerving belief in an invisible man in the sky and that demon, patriotism. Still around 70% are firm believers in this malevolent Old Testament God... Holy Crap (to steel a line from George Carlin). So sad that 3 of the most powerful nations on Earth have such disappointing leadership... so it's up to the rest of us.

Unfortunately, Howie's critics have too much on him... and they'll label him with 'that' word which sends shivers through most Yanks - Socialism!!! Too much like Communism... though most wouldn't know what either word meant and, naturally, the difference... let alone how many forms of each there doth exist.

Keep up the fight, Pauly. We humans had better wake up soon. Your cause, as you mention, is economic and ecological (which I applaud) whereas mine is more your social justice/psychological health - I just reckon psychologically healthy humans are more likely to look after each other and the planet much better. Problem is most people think they're psychologically well and their opinions/life styles are just fine. At least when you can admit you're 'unhinged' you get to be honest with yourself and perhaps do something about it... or simply enjoy that lunatic glow.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 05, 2020, 11:31:09 am
Vladimir Trump.

We always knew it was that way, it's no longer hidden.

First comes a civil war, then the Autocracy.

(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2017-01/31/13/asset/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane-03/sub-buzz-31221-1485887717-1.jpg?crop=1600:838;0,0)(https://media.gettyimages.com/videos/crowds-doing-nazi-salute-adolf-hitler-making-speech-audio-berlin-video-id144144229?s=640x640)
The morons do not even see the similarity!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on June 08, 2020, 11:13:55 am
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRDH9qdzaTKVKI_xgJVU656Ns1Q1LI4mhgC7XclHlvUx945KUyo&usqp=CAU)

I think it is more this?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on June 08, 2020, 02:21:16 pm
Obama was a great leader and it made no difference. Black Lives Matter was actually formed during his reign, the country is a crap hole.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 08, 2020, 04:54:50 pm
Vladimir Trump.

We always knew it was that way, it's no longer hidden.

First comes a civil war, then the Autocracy.

(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2017-01/31/13/asset/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane-03/sub-buzz-31221-1485887717-1.jpg?crop=1600:838;0,0)(https://media.gettyimages.com/videos/crowds-doing-nazi-salute-adolf-hitler-making-speech-audio-berlin-video-id144144229?s=640x640)
Hitler had the German hearts and minds, the majority believed in him......dont think Trump on his best day could have claim to have similar mass appeal...Interesting that Adolf was planning on dropping a nuclear bomb on New York...that might have changed politics a bit in the USA.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on June 08, 2020, 06:21:57 pm
Obama was a great leader and it made no difference. Black Lives Matter was actually formed during his reign....................

An average president who effected no real meaningful change, and could only be considered in the positive when judged against the dismally low standards of his immediate predecessors and his immediate successor.

https://truthout.org/articles/a-mixed-story-ranging-from-criminal-to-moderate-improvement-noam-chomsky-on-obama-s-legacy/
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: kruddler on June 09, 2020, 06:12:47 pm
An average president who effected no real meaningful change, and could only be considered in the positive when judged against the dismally low standards of his immediate predecessors and his immediate successor.

https://truthout.org/articles/a-mixed-story-ranging-from-criminal-to-moderate-improvement-noam-chomsky-on-obama-s-legacy/

Given the seemingly constant freefall the once great nation that is USA has been in pre and post Obama, the fact that he was able to stop that from continuing could be considered a minor miracle!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on June 09, 2020, 06:31:47 pm
Given the seemingly constant freefall the once great nation that is USA has been in pre and post Obama, the fact that he was able to stop that from continuing could be considered a minor miracle!

The same problems that have plagued the country for decades continued under Obama, following essentially the same policies. Yes, he was better than the worst president in US history (Trump), and better than the second worst (GW Bush), but these standards are so low as to be rendered almost meaningless.

Nice rhetoric, nice words, but not nearly enough action to address significant problems. Cornel West has called Obama a black mascot for Wall Street, and I can see where he's coming from.

His ascension to the presidency highlights a big problem for black Americans, which is that individual upward mobility has supplanted communal benefit and improvement in the lives, standards etc. of coloured people. You can have people like Obama living wealthy successful lives, but for most blacks, improvement just isn't there.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on June 09, 2020, 07:28:37 pm
Thanks to the 22nd amendment, he's not there.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 10, 2020, 11:29:40 am
The Obama's are worth about 70 mill and are 30 times more wealthy than when he became president, his troubles started with soft middle east policies(troop withdrawls against advice), granting a under sanctions Iran access to US banks to convert currency into Euros and trying to tax the wealthy to improve health care in the USA. All suicidal moves politically, he had some decent well meaning ideas but no political nous unlike Trump who has a lot of dopey ideas but more rat like cunning which is what you need to make things happen.
In the end he just gave up and looked after himself, think he just got sick of being the novelty black president with a target on his back. Trump has the knack of pulling out strong arm foreign policy at the right time usually when he has fecked up something else and is a master of deflection...Obama just didnt have that rat cunning or survival mentality.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 10, 2020, 02:19:17 pm
FMD, Donald Trump,

"Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur," Trump wrote. "75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?"

what a man!

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSnRfa4EfiTd0n9AsbqXyV5o26y-MGjZtqnt9R72ZzSdD3ZqRlo&usqp=CAU)

God Bless America!

PS; Apparently mobile phones are now communications blocking scanners?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on June 10, 2020, 02:19:32 pm
An average president who effected no real meaningful change, and could only be considered in the positive when judged against the dismally low standards of his immediate predecessors and his immediate successor.

https://truthout.org/articles/a-mixed-story-ranging-from-criminal-to-moderate-improvement-noam-chomsky-on-obama-s-legacy/

People have short memories Paul. Obama was a shocker.

Some highlights of his tenure:

1. deported 2m+ immigrants.
2. Benghazi (the Killary killings) and then destroyed Libya (without approval from Congress)
3. New Iraq war.
4. 10 times more drone strikes than Bush before him.
5. Signed the Monsanto Protection Act into law.
6. Signed the NDAA into law.
7. Signed more executive orders than any other President in history.
8. Sanctioned over USD100 billion of arms sales to the Saudis (who supply ISIS).
9. Continued the rendition program.
10. Stated blithely that he was "really good at killing people".
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on June 10, 2020, 02:20:58 pm
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/4-inconvenient-facts-for-george-floyd-protesters

"Though better data collection is necessary, multiple studies suggest that race is not a factor in deadly force decisions by police officers. What’s more, only 8 out of 1,000 fatal police shooting incidents in 2019 involved individuals reported as “unarmed” black people. The term “unarmed” does not imply that there was insufficient legal basis for police to use deadly force, only that media reports indicated the person was unarmed."
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on June 10, 2020, 04:22:50 pm
FMD, Donald Trump,

"Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur," Trump wrote. "75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?"

what a man!

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSnRfa4EfiTd0n9AsbqXyV5o26y-MGjZtqnt9R72ZzSdD3ZqRlo&usqp=CAU)

God Bless America!

PS; Apparently mobile phones are now communications blocking scanners?

Cops did nothing wrong there, if they can't give someone who is in their face a little push then they may as well abolish the police force.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 10, 2020, 04:25:41 pm
Cops did nothing wrong there, if they can't give someone who is in their face a little push then they may as well abolish the police force.
My post is not about the cops. ;) 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on June 12, 2020, 06:00:42 pm
My post is not about the cops. ;)

I'm curious LP.

How is that old bloke getting pushed over about Trump?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on June 12, 2020, 06:18:02 pm
Cops did nothing wrong there, if they can't give someone who is in their face a little push then they may as well abolish the police force.

What was required was some intelligence, and understanding 'excessive force'. Anyone with half a brain could see it was a frail old bloke getting in their faces... simply moving him to one side would have sufficed. Excessive force and anger are often linked and cops aint supposed to act out of anger; meant to use 'reasonable' force when required.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on June 16, 2020, 01:14:31 pm
What was required was some intelligence, and understanding 'excessive force'. Anyone with half a brain could see it was a frail old bloke getting in their faces... simply moving him to one side would have sufficed. Excessive force and anger are often linked and cops aint supposed to act out of anger; meant to use 'reasonable' force when required.

They were in riot gear, anyone with half a brain knows what happens if you don't follow their orders.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on June 16, 2020, 01:31:44 pm
Dont attend a riot you have 0% chance of being a statistic.

Simple maths.  The Police are required to be there.

Rioters are not required to riot.  They could just stand there hold their sign up, and then when asked to move on, move on.

How novel.  Comply with instruction don't get burned.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on June 16, 2020, 02:14:17 pm
The greatest gift protestors can give to the empire is violence, because the empire will use it as a justification for violence against people. That said, anyone who doesn't think the increasingly militarised US Police Force isn't among the most heavy handed on the planet, clearly has not been paying attention. They go ridiculously overboard again and again.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on June 16, 2020, 02:26:06 pm
The "protesters" seem to have made a strategic mistake in setting up the CHAZ I think. Already there is fighting and squabbling amongst themselves and chaos seems to reign. The authorities are leaving them to it and letting them become a spectacle. Reminds me of events in Paris in 1968 where there was much civil unrest on the streets. De Gaulle virtually let them get on with it for a while and they subsequently lost any public sympathy they may have had - game over.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 29, 2020, 03:00:14 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUif106VC-o

USA cant be serious about Joe Biden becoming President...China and Putin must be sat back laughing.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on June 29, 2020, 03:14:04 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUif106VC-o

USA cant be serious about Joe Biden becoming President...China and Putin must be sat back laughing.

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/politics/rumors-still-abound-that-hillary-will-emerge-in-july/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=RSS
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: dodge on June 29, 2020, 04:44:37 pm
Heard a rumour that it will be Michelle O in August announced.  They can't possibly think they'll win with Biden.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on June 29, 2020, 05:20:05 pm
They certainly won't win with her either.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: dodge on June 29, 2020, 05:37:02 pm
Agree.  Like him or not, Trump is pretty shrewd - his jumping all over the place is hard to combat and what he says, whether it is true or not, seems to resonate with the right people to back him and, in the right places vote for him.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on June 29, 2020, 06:10:10 pm
It's kind of ironic that if the Dem's had been successful in having Trump removed in that impeachment process a few months back there's a fair possibility they would have wrecked their chances of winning the presidency.
Pence wouldn't have been the candidate..
Who would have been the Republican candidate and how would they have shaped up differently against Biden?
Would Biden still have been the  Democratic candidate in that scenario?
How would that impeachment vote have gone today?


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on June 29, 2020, 06:17:59 pm
It's kind of ironic that if the Dem's had been successful in having Trump removed in that impeachment process a few months back there's a fair possibility they would have wrecked their chances of winning the presidency.
Pence wouldn't have been the candidate..
Who would have been the Republican candidate and how would they have shaped up differently against Biden?
Would Biden still have been the  Democratic candidate in that scenario?
How would that impeachment vote have gone today?

Yet they always knew they had zero chance of getting the 'charge' through the GOP controlled Senate....

Just Pelosi showing she's as gone as Sleep Joe.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 29, 2020, 09:03:15 pm
Yet they always knew they had zero chance of getting the 'charge' through the GOP controlled Senate....

Just Pelosi showing she's as gone as Sleep Joe.
 I doubt they did it thinking they would win, I suspect it was a message not a judgement.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on June 29, 2020, 09:38:32 pm
clearly but if the message does nothing but alienate the populace/....

Well, Plan B I guess was a pandemic!?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on June 29, 2020, 10:49:56 pm
Trump will win.

Why?  Follow the Dow Jones.

They've already gone down the road of saying he's not being serious about the pandemic.

The only way they do this is by getting serious and shutting down states.

That's disaster for the wealthy unless they bail early.  Some have, but most won't.   Trumps doing exactly what the wealthy want.  Those people mean more to America than any voter does.  He's in for another term IMHO.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on June 29, 2020, 11:09:58 pm
Trump will win.

Why?  Follow the Dow Jones.

They've already gone down the road of saying he's not being serious about the pandemic.

The only way they do this is by getting serious and shutting down states.

That's disaster for the wealthy unless they bail early.  Some have, but most won't.   Trumps doing exactly what the wealthy want.  Those people mean more to America than any voter does.  He's in for another term IMHO.

Tend to agree, the affected masses wont rock up to vote anyway and the sharemarket in the USA will collapse if anyone else but Trump gets in and I cant see Corporate America and the wealthy allowing that to happen.
Its all wrong but Trump and crew dont care about lives and given voting isnt compulsory its going to take a very organised opponent to get the numbers out to vote and Biden wouldnt know what planet he is on much less being able to make sure the anti trumpers all cast a vote.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on June 30, 2020, 07:50:22 am
Russiagate has turned into a disaster for the Dems with potentially some bigtime skeletons to emerge from the closet there. I tend to think Trump will get back and if he does revenge will be the order of the day.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 30, 2020, 08:19:29 am
Russiagate has turned into a disaster for the Dems with potentially some bigtime skeletons to emerge from the closet there. I tend to think Trump will get back and if he does revenge will be the order of the day.
That's not how he roles.

Even if he gets in he knows it's his final term. The guys looks after himself first and foremost, it's his one consistent and reliable trait, so he'll be brown-nosing big time with his potential replacements from either side. Just wait and see the types of back flip that this term potentially produces.

Trump supporters that think he's going out guns blazing are in for a hell of a shock!

You wouldn't put it past him to try and have the rules changed so he can stay, but he won't try that on unless he thinks it is a high chance of success, because it makes him look like another Putin or Li and there will be ramifications he cannot defend against if he's on the outside!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on June 30, 2020, 08:47:58 am
That's not how he roles.

Even if he gets in he knows it's his final term. The guys looks after himself first and foremost, it's his one consistent and reliable trait, so he'll be brown-nosing big time with his potential replacements from either side. Just wait and see the types of back flip that this term potentially produces.

Trump supporters that think he's going out guns blazing are in for a hell of a shock!

You wouldn't put it past him to try and have the rules changed so he can stay, but he won't try that on unless he thinks it is a high chance of success, because it makes him look like another Putin or Li and there will be ramifications he cannot defend against if he's on the outside!

Are you aware of what Barr is up to and the the revelations possibly coming out of the Epstein affair?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 30, 2020, 11:08:10 am
Are you aware of what Barr is up to and the the revelations possibly coming out of the Epstein affair?
Until I see actions I take most stuff with a grain of salt, I take many things the media report as possibly fake, any wordplay about Barr-Epstein is just too comical to be serious! :D

Most of the accusations and assertions are as valid as blaming a fat ar5e on racism.

I try to assess people based on past behaviour not rumors, what they did before tells me far more than anything they promise for the future, and also in the context of what is possible because most rumors about this or that action are fundamentally impossible to implement without bipartisan collusion. Not just in the USA but anywhere.

Media and followers rarely consider the long term risks and ramifications of the fixes and fudges that get rumored, they are too focused on the now!

When politicians and lawyers start colouring outside the lines, they are creating precedents that opponents get to make use of in the future. They know full and well in the long term they get investigated and judged by the very rules they make.

Trump and his crew might be ar5eholes but they are not idiots, they are not going to load a gun that gets pointed back at them in retirement! Someone has to pay though, and the long term price might be applied indiscriminately to Trump's opponents and followers, who are mostly the little people.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on June 30, 2020, 11:25:57 am
@LP
Agree, the elites of all colours do look after their own generally, with just the occasional one or one of their minions thrown under the bus for dramatic effect. There's a lot of stuff happening though so it will be interesting to see who gets away with it and who takes the fall(s).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on July 01, 2020, 06:22:26 am
Biden now says Trump is not "cognitively aware".  Him.  Saying that.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 05, 2020, 12:58:29 pm
Its alright everyone ,Kanye West says he is running for president and Elon Musk has said he will support him.
I feel better now with Kanye and Elon running the world, we can all drive Tesla's and tap our feet to Kanye's rap offerings with the
car in auto pilot. Lets hope its all just a PR stunt from KW and Elon was back on the weed.
Any chance the USA can find a decent candidate who isnt some form of delusional nutcase..
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 05, 2020, 04:24:23 pm
Its alright everyone ,Kanye West says he is running for president and Elon Musk has said he will support him.
I feel better now with Kanye and Elon running the world, we can all drive Tesla's and tap our feet to Kanye's rap offerings with the
car in auto pilot. Lets hope its all just a PR stunt from KW and Elon was back on the weed.
Any chance the USA can find a decent candidate who isnt some form of delusional nutcase..
Kanye West, couldnt make that up if you tried. Change it from God Bless America to God Save America. Just when you thought it couldnt get worse than Trump.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on July 05, 2020, 04:45:49 pm
Maybe a divide and conquer tactic to take black votes away from Biden, and ensure Trump wins again. It's very last minute, and could simply be a 4th July joke.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on July 05, 2020, 06:37:25 pm
Its alright everyone ,Kanye West says he is running for president and Elon Musk has said he will support him.

Bugger.
That just makes it so much harder to decide. ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on July 05, 2020, 06:38:51 pm
Seriously a third (fourth)candidate is probably the only hope for that mob.
A drover's dog could win that election if he scrubbed up.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on July 21, 2020, 11:21:06 am
Life imitating art.
First came Pagliaccio;
(https://pmcdeadline2.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/trump-tca-2015-apprentice-1-1.jpg)
Ignorant, jealous, destructive and indifferent to his audience, a monster.

Then came Bozo;
(https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2020/07/931/524/kanye-west-vest-REUTERS.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
Trivial, foolish and greedy but connected to his audience, a marketing tool born of the monster.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on July 21, 2020, 12:39:53 pm
Maybe a divide and conquer tactic to take black votes away from Biden, and ensure Trump wins again. It's very last minute, and could simply be a 4th July joke.


Could be right.  Read somewhere that Trump currently has about  37% of the black male vote!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on July 22, 2020, 09:50:39 am
Kanye making the Republican and Democrat candidates for President seem 'almost' reasonable and acceptable choices in comparison.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on July 22, 2020, 10:27:52 am
Kanye's carry on has apparently just cost him $1B on the US exchange, what are the odds he drops the campaign like a hot rock, having bought back some extra Yeezy shares at a rock bottom price.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on September 19, 2020, 07:35:32 am
The United States of America is [REDACTED]
I was 9 years old when John Kennedy died. I wasn’t old enough to understand his presidency, but I was old enough to appreciate the effect his death had on the adults around me. It was profound. I guess that’s when I realized POTUS was kind of a big deal.

It’s still a big deal but the question Americans need to ask themselves in the next month or so is this…
Does my candidate for President belong in –
a)   a mental institution
b)   an aged care facility
c)   a correctional facility

Donald Trump is not fit to be President of the United States. He’s not even fit to be president of the local Rotary club. He’s a divisive, deceiving, prejudiced character whose presidency is more about self-promotion and personal benefit.
He shouldn’t be in with a chance but the fact that he is has more to do with the approach and tactics of his opponents.

The first mistake Democrats made was with their choice of candidate last time around. Biden chose not to run in 2016. Had he been the nominee instead of Clinton the Trump presidency may never have happened.
Mistake number two was that the Democrats and their supporters never really accepted the result of the election. It may be a flawed system but it’s the system under which they operate.

Joe Biden is not the same person that we saw as Obama’s vice president. He has declined significantly in the last four years and that decline will only continue, perhaps accelerate in the next four years .You would have to be an optimist to believe that, if elected, he will still be President in 2024. He is a poor candidate. There seems to be this idea though, especially amongst Democrats, that if Biden is elected things will largely settle down.

But here’s the problem.
You can’t be a party of ‘hate’ against a President and his administration and suddenly turn into a party of ‘healers’ hoping to attract and win over the supporters of the opposition. That takes the turning circle of the Titanic and your fate is likely to be the same as that poor, unfortunate, vulnerable vessel. You can’t pour on venom for four years and then once elected say “Oh, you have to give us a fair go”.

The fear isn’t for the past or the present…it’s for the future. If Biden is elected there is a fair to middling chance the divisions in America will intensify, not settle down. Republican law makers will be on the attack from the word ‘go’. Trump won’t go quietly into the night and will continue to stir things up. The hard-core Trump supporters won’t forget how he was treated. They number in the millions. Most of them are armed.
 
The United States of America is [REDACTED]
God SAVE America!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 19, 2020, 07:55:04 am
The United States of America is [REDACTED]
I was 9 years old when John Kennedy died. I wasn’t old enough to understand his presidency, but I was old enough to appreciate the effect his death had on the adults around me. It was profound. I guess that’s when I realized POTUS was kind of a big deal.

It’s still a big deal but the question Americans need to ask themselves in the next month or so is this…
Does my candidate for President belong in –
a)   a mental institution
b)   an aged care facility
c)   a correctional facility

Donald Trump is not fit to be President of the United States. He’s not even fit to be president of the local Rotary club. He’s a divisive, deceiving, prejudiced character whose presidency is more about self-promotion and personal benefit.
He shouldn’t be in with a chance but the fact that he is has more to do with the approach and tactics of his opponents.

The first mistake Democrats made was with their choice of candidate last time around. Biden chose not to run in 2016. Had he been the nominee instead of Clinton the Trump presidency may never have happened.
Mistake number two was that the Democrats and their supporters never really accepted the result of the election. It may be a flawed system but it’s the system under which they operate.

Joe Biden is not the same person that we saw as Obama’s vice president. He has declined significantly in the last four years and that decline will only continue, perhaps accelerate in the next four years .You would have to be an optimist to believe that, if elected, he will still be President in 2024. He is a poor candidate. There seems to be this idea though, especially amongst Democrats, that if Biden is elected things will largely settle down.

But here’s the problem.
You can’t be a party of ‘hate’ against a President and his administration and suddenly turn into a party of ‘healers’ hoping to attract and win over the supporters of the opposition. That takes the turning circle of the Titanic and your fate is likely to be the same as that poor, unfortunate, vulnerable vessel. You can’t pour on venom for four years and then once elected say “Oh, you have to give us a fair go”.

The fear isn’t for the past or the present…it’s for the future. If Biden is elected there is a fair to middling chance the divisions in America will intensify, not settle down. Republican law makers will be on the attack from the word ‘go’. Trump won’t go quietly into the night and will continue to stir things up. The hard-core Trump supporters won’t forget how he was treated. They number in the millions. Most of them are armed.
 
The United States of America is [REDACTED]
God SAVE America!

And we bitch and moan about our pollies, parties and system ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on September 19, 2020, 08:38:32 am
If it was Pence up against Biden, it would be a wipeout waiting for the democrats.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on September 19, 2020, 11:35:42 am
And as if things weren't  bad enough....
The death of Ruth Bader Ginsburg this morning will crank this up to a new level of  ridiculousness.  ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on September 30, 2020, 11:50:40 am
Two grumpy old men going at it at the moment. Hilarious.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on September 30, 2020, 11:54:57 am
Two grumpy old men going at it at the moment. Hilarious.

Waldorf and Statler??
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcR8bwImD_8AgGKtrmID3PZfq9KsIbJC_NmpzA&usqp=CAU)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on September 30, 2020, 12:03:50 pm
It's an absolute shambles.
Chris Wallace is usually pretty good as a moderator but even he's struggling.

Biden wins if he doesn't have any dramatic confused moments.
He's most effective when he talks directly to the camera and the people.

Trump playing the bully to his best....personal jibes and interruptions.
But that will appeal to a lot of folks.

I doubt many folks will change their votes based on this...and that favours Biden.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2020, 12:19:21 pm
Trump is a bully but sleepy Joe should never debate a pro like Trump in a open forum. Wallace lost control from the first minute and Biden was over powered constantly.
I thought Biden scored over Covid but got hammered over the economy and came across like a simpleton. The bit about his son rocked him too and he collapsed into calling Trump a clown rather than being able to move the conversation on like Trump would.
I'm not a Trump fan but I gave him the debate on points..
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on September 30, 2020, 12:51:29 pm
I'll call it a draw which is better than what Hillary did in any of her debates with Trump.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on September 30, 2020, 12:59:12 pm
It was like listening to a debate between Mark Latham and Pauline Hanson, they should be both dragged out the back and executed for just existing as they a waste of the not very precious abundant element carbon!

It's like the Official Monster Raving Looney Party and The Teddy Bear Alliance debating for control of the UK!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on September 30, 2020, 01:29:02 pm
If we've got to the point where these debates are used as a determinant for the quality of the candidate / party, Lord help us all.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on September 30, 2020, 01:47:14 pm
When biden said ANTIFA was "an idea, not an organisation", he lost me.  Telling in the extreme.  Donald needed to crucify him over his son.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on September 30, 2020, 02:25:34 pm
When biden said ANTIFA was "an idea, not an organisation", he lost me.  Telling in the extreme.  Donald needed to crucify him over his son.
But that is correct, Antifa is an abbreviation for Anti-Facist and it is an ideology adopted by lots of organisations, in fact it is an ideology built on deliberately decentralised and distributed entities using a model similar to Anonymous. A faceless movement!

 Antifa isn't in itself an organisation.

There is some irony in Trump using Antifa as some sort of disparagement or slur, because a lot of his policies fundamentally align more closely to Antifa ideology than they do democracy. When Trump started to preach insurrection if he loses the election that was all but confirmed, he is happy to deny democracy! Freedom is his way or hell on earth, when Trump preaches social unrest, riot or civil disobedience if he loses, he sounds very much like Antifa!

Those of us old enough to have experienced world war, Vientam, or Korea, should be very fearful of the current environment being promoted by certain politicians. The FaceCrook, Twatter and InstaFraud generations are ignorant of the effects, they think COVID was worse and that War is something that happens "over there". In reality COVID is not much more than the Cold War, a event with a huge potential risk.

War isn't a potential risk, it's very very real whether it's civil or global!

The cranky oldies like Trump, maybe even like myself, better be careful what they ask for, or they will be burring their children and grandchildren with the cash from their fat wallets. They won't be able to stop it with a hashtag of anything!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on September 30, 2020, 03:18:39 pm
.... when Trump preaches social unrest, riot or civil disobedience if he loses, he sounds very much like Antifa!

He's never said anything even approaching that ???
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2020, 03:24:18 pm
My tip is Biden wins but the Repubs hold power in the Senate and the USA grinds to a halt..
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: mateinone on September 30, 2020, 04:01:42 pm
Absolutely the worst debate I have ever seen. Well it was not a debate, it was unable to be moderated at all.
Trump was a disgrace and I had no issue with Biden calling him a moron or an idiot and telling him to shutup, as Trump just comes over the top over and over again with irrelevant points.
He has no regard for the integrity of the debate process at all
It does not matter as his supporter base will remain charged and consider it a strong victory, those staunchly against him will continue to be.
With those undecided, they will have to chose between a fairly ordinary, but not terrible Biden and an ridiculous Trump. I don't know that either candidate won many nett votes tonight
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on September 30, 2020, 04:32:24 pm
If we've got to the point where these debates are used as a determinant for the quality of the candidate / party, Lord help us all.

Sharp summary.

Trump has no respect for the process and is a fraud. Biden is something of a lightweight who should be enjoying his grand kids.

Not a good advertisement for the Presidency of the US.

Maybe Biden wins, retires whilst in term and Kamala Harris assumes the Presidency. A thought that appeals to me, to be honest.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on September 30, 2020, 04:34:26 pm
He's never said anything even approaching that ???
Sure, ................. we realise he didn't say those words, .......... but you do not have to say something to incite a behaviour, ........... you know!

Instead he just very publicly and graphically hypothesised on the podium that he can't be held responsible for his supporters behaviour if he loses.

You know, ............. he doesn't know what they might do. ::)

That is basically implanting a suggestion, some might call it incitement! ;)

Although we've seen Kim Jung-Un behave this way, it is horrendous behaviour from a Head of the USA!

Do you think that it is appropriate for any Head of State, even if it is seemingly a worthless statement?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on September 30, 2020, 04:36:06 pm
Absolutely the worst debate I have ever seen. Well it was not a debate, it was unable to be moderated at all.
Trump was a disgrace and I had no issue with Biden calling him a moron or an idiot and telling him to shutup, as Trump just comes over the top over and over again with irrelevant points.
He has no regard for the integrity of the debate process at all
It does not matter as his supporter base will remain charged and consider it a strong victory, those staunchly against him will continue to be.
With those undecided, they will have to chose between a fairly ordinary, but not terrible Biden and an ridiculous Trump. I don't know that either candidate won many nett votes tonight

The 'debate' was doomed as soon as the 'moderator' started debating Trump....

Biden acquitted himself surprising well for a guy who days ago was trumpeting the fact he'd been in the Senate for 180 years.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on September 30, 2020, 04:56:13 pm
Sure, ................. we realise he didn't say those words, .......... but you do not have to say something to incite a behaviour, ........... you know!

Instead he just very publicly and graphically hypothesised on the podium that he can't be held responsible for his supporters behaviour if he loses.

You know, ............. he doesn't know what they might do. ::)

That is basically implanting a suggestion, some might call it incitement! ;)

Although we've seen Kim Jung-Un behave this way, it is horrendous behaviour from a Head of the USA!

Do you think that it is appropriate for any Head of State, even if it is seemingly a worthless statement?

Yep.

There is no 'too low' for the Orange Rodent. He will use manipulation (narcissist/sociopath) to achieve his ends - always has, and he will stoop to any tool he perceives as 'useful' to his personal agenda. He definitely insinuates clearly that 'if you don't vote for me there will be blood in the streets, I'm the only person in the world that can prevent that... if I remain President'. I'd be surprised if anyone didn't think that. In this instance his manipulation tool is fear. Bullsh1t and grandiosity are another two of his favourite tools.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on September 30, 2020, 04:57:14 pm
There's no way out through the electoral process. Both Democrats and Republicans have been bought and owned by the corporate oligarchs and wealthy elites, and do what they're told. Biden will, if anything, be more acceptable to the powers that be, because he's not a vulgar, trash talking embarrassment like Trump. Don't expect Biden to make things much better for ordinary folks.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on September 30, 2020, 04:58:36 pm
It was a disgrace....and a pox on both their parties.

We know what Trump is but if Joe Biden is the best candidate the Democrats can produce then they deserve criticism as well.

They're rooted....we just have to hope that while this circus is happening some other 'nasty nation' doesn't take advantage of the turmoil.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on September 30, 2020, 05:01:49 pm
Do you think that it is appropriate for any Head of State, even if it is seemingly a worthless statement?

No.  Not when he didn't say it ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2020, 05:13:44 pm
There's no way out through the electoral process. Both Democrats and Republicans have been bought and owned by the corporate oligarchs and wealthy elites, and do what they're told. Biden will, if anything, be more acceptable to the powers that be, because he's not a vulgar, trash talking embarrassment like Trump. Don't expect Biden to make things much better for ordinary folks.
Biden wants to raise Corporate taxes during a recession(thats making money for the govt with high school economics), big business dont want him and wont work with him. The stock market is expected to fall 5% or more if Biden wins, you are going to see mass unemployment and companies taking their business offshore.
This will all flow onto us and keep Australia in recession, I dont like Trump anymore than most but Biden doesnt have any policies of note apart from keeping Obamacare and I cant see how the USA can recover under Biden from the economic and covid damage.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on September 30, 2020, 05:30:25 pm
Biden wants to raise Corporate taxes during a recession(thats making money for the govt with high school economics), big business dont want him and wont work with him. The stock market is expected to fall 5% or more if Biden wins, you are going to see mass unemployment and companies taking their business offshore.
This will all flow onto us and keep Australia in recession, I dont like Trump anymore than most but Biden doesnt have any policies of note apart from keeping Obamacare and I cant see how the USA can recover under Biden from the economic and covid damage.

Thats it in a nutshell.

The fix was in a long time ago.  The day Trump abolished capital gains tax, and took control of the Fed was the day he won the election.  The rest of it is all a lot of theatre to give people the illusion of choice.

If it really starts to look like he'll lose, keep your eyes on whats going on in Turkey, there will be an American base under fire and troops to send in quicker than you can say Uncle Sam, and no president has yet to lose an election during a war.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on September 30, 2020, 07:12:58 pm
Biden wants to raise Corporate taxes during a recession(thats making money for the govt with high school economics), big business dont want him and wont work with him. The stock market is expected to fall 5% or more if Biden wins, you are going to see mass unemployment and companies taking their business offshore.
This will all flow onto us and keep Australia in recession, I dont like Trump anymore than most but Biden doesnt have any policies of note apart from keeping Obamacare and I cant see how the USA can recover under Biden from the economic and covid damage.

Yes, he actually wants to increase corporate taxes from 0% to 1% Lol - so naturally all hell breaks loose. American corporate elites are a brood of vipers. The fact that they won't work with someone as far right as Biden tells you everything you need to know. Typical right wing scare tactics.

Very few people own stock, and the disconnect between Wall Street and Main Street economics increases all the time - there isn't zero connection, but it's not much.

Capitalist economies tank every 4-7 years on average. Sometimes it's a minor tank, sometimes it's very significant, like in 2000, 2008-09, and 2020. The longer the gap between crashes, the greater the intensity of the crash. There's many factors that affect stock markets - health crises, war crises, oil prices, collapse of governments etc. The standard solution is for the government to pour ridiculous amounts of money into corporations, big banks etc., which is supposed to "trickle down" to the working poor. But of course it rarely does, because the big boys can make more money on Wall Street than they can helping poor suffering slobs.

The system is broken, and no amount of band aid solutions, or fussing about a small percentage of tax here or there, is going to change that.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 30, 2020, 08:19:01 pm
Corporate tax rates up from 21 to 28%, 12.4 %payroll tax, big pharma and other companies who leave the USA to get a punishment tax... Its high school economics to tax heavily in a recession. The broad picture is every worker with a super account or a 401k account is connected to the stockmarket, that's a high connect.
Stockmarkets move on sentiment in the main.. Governments usually stimulate economies by reducing interest rates, buy bonds both govt and corporate. Its true that money doesn't filter down to everyone but its about creating a environment for earnings and employment. I'm talking about fixing a recession and covid damage not fixing world poverty and equality. Don't think Biden is capable of either but Trump regardless of being a arrogant boofhead is a better bet to fix the former in the USA and not drag the rest of the world into a GFC.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on September 30, 2020, 08:51:02 pm
Trump hit a home run (would have escaped many understandably ignorant of the subject) that he will reduce the prices of insulin to standard cheap world levels and hurt big pharma in the process.  A MASSIVE cost decrease (perhaps 90%) for many millions of American diabetics that don't have health care.  Biden had nothing to say about that.

A superb move. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: dodge on September 30, 2020, 11:06:57 pm
The other example which will get Trump plenty of votes is him raising postal voting being compromised.

Such a simple statement without fact resonates with the public.  They don't bother to think about it themselves, but 'if Trump says it, it must be true' and it could be plausible.

No one has yet worked out a simple rebuttal for these types of statements that stick and have such a wide-ranging effect.

Trump's insults also stick - true or not - eg he was talking about Biden being worst/second worst student in his year - saying he's not smart.  These resonate with the common person in the street.

Whatever you think of Trump, he is very shrewd.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 01, 2020, 08:15:48 am
No.  Not when he didn't say it ...
Of course he did, as much as he said he can walk down the street and shoot someone without reprisal!

Saying "no" isn't evidence to the contrary, it's just a denial! ;D

Trump hit a home run (would have escaped many understandably ignorant of the subject) that he will reduce the prices of insulin to standard cheap world levels and hurt big pharma in the process. 
What Trump giveth with one hand, he taketh with the other! ;)

The Red Man has a Red Right Hand! :o

I didn't think it was true initially but I'm starting to think it may be right. The idea that Trumps whole President episode is about buying time to try and rectifiy his personal financial crisis before the creditors come knocking on his door for $0.10c in the dollar! Has he really blown Daddy's fortune?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 01, 2020, 08:23:30 am
Trump didn't create the divisions in America.
His Presidency has just exposed and highlighted them.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on October 01, 2020, 08:24:46 am
The other example which will get Trump plenty of votes is him raising postal voting being compromised.

Such a simple statement without fact resonates with the public.  They don't bother to think about it themselves, but 'if Trump says it, it must be true' and it could be plausible.

No one has yet worked out a simple rebuttal for these types of statements that stick and have such a wide-ranging effect.

Trump's insults also stick - true or not - eg he was talking about Biden being worst/second worst student in his year - saying he's not smart.  These resonate with the common person in the street.

Whatever you think of Trump, he is very shrewd.

There's a truck load of evidence that it's a compromised system....if one bothers to look for it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 01, 2020, 08:25:46 am
Trump didn't create the divisions in America.
His Presidency has just exposed and highlighted them.
Yet, he's openly prepared to manipulate and strengthen them!

He is like the Anti-Churchhill, but all the while I suspect he thinks he is the same as Churchhill!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 01, 2020, 08:43:39 am
Trump hit a home run (would have escaped many understandably ignorant of the subject) that he will reduce the prices of insulin to standard cheap world levels and hurt big pharma in the process.  A MASSIVE cost decrease (perhaps 90%) for many millions of American diabetics that don't have health care.  Biden had nothing to say about that.

A superb move. 

Problem is, no one will believe him. His administration has delivered hundreds of broken promises. And even his supporters know, deep down inside, that he's a bullshizener.

The only winner from their debate was profound disrespect for the process... and how childlike grown men can be. Nil all draw embarrassment.

Perhaps one thing we learned was that Biden sure doesn't have dementia ... actually when people see him pause and close his eyes for about a second he's simply going to the things he learned in speech pathology to combat his chronic stutter.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 01, 2020, 08:46:47 am
Trump didn't create the divisions in America.
His Presidency has just exposed and highlighted them.



True, but I'd add that he also feeds them.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 01, 2020, 10:57:22 am
Of course he did, as much as he said he can walk down the street and shoot someone without reprisal!

Saying "no" isn't evidence to the contrary, it's just a denial! ;D

I'm not about to change my opinion LP.  For all his obvious faults, he's a light year in front of the addle brained Biden. 

 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 01, 2020, 11:00:04 am
I'm not about to change my opinion LP.  For all his obvious faults, he's a light year in front of the addle brained Biden. 
Sorry, I didn't realise the USA was an autocracy, I thought it was a democracy.

I do not expect you to change your opinion, but I am surprised you think any of them are valid options!

You clearly boost Trump, how about criticising him for his reprehensible behaviour rather than defending it. You can do that and still argue he is a better option than his opponent, Trump fans do not have to brown-nose to be boosters!

That seems to be the biggest problem here, nobody on Trump's side of the debate seems to have enough wherewithal to call out his bad behaviour. Are they scared of him, or perhaps it's the Russian's they are scared of, Novichok anyone?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 01, 2020, 11:11:57 am
Forget personality politics - it's a mug's game. Those two have negligible impact on the policies of their respective parties.

On both policy and personality, it's a race to the bottom, and whilst it's a photo finish, Trump wins. Even the corporate elites prefer Biden.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 01, 2020, 11:23:00 am
True, but I'd add that he also feeds them.

No doubt....
But the thing is the divisions exist.
For the most part they stay hidden, bubbling along under the surface.
That kind of suppression is always going to explode at some point.
Trump didn't cause the division but he was the catalyst for its exposure and development.

The Democrats and their supporters, (especially some of the more high-profile) aren't exactly blameless in this situation either.
The language they use, the personal attacks on Trump's appearance and his family, the disparaging of his supporters are in some cases just as hateful as Trump's ravings.

After three years of relentless attacks I suspect the Democrats have realised that if they do win this election that there is a "Piper to be paid."
There will be no instant healing,
The Republicans will respond in exactly the same way their opponents did.
Obstruction and criticism at every turn.
The worst is yet to come.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 01, 2020, 11:25:33 am
@PaulP

But the danger is there, we live in an era dominated by the FaceCrook, InstaFraud and Twaddle. Kids, and by kids I mean people in existence below about the age of 30, use this media for information, and then they use it to cross check. It's self-referential, there is not editor, curator or accountability!

When Trump poses questions about the validity of voting, when he raises his arms and claims he can't be responsible for the behaviour of his supporters, it is really those under 30s who are "the they" in his frame of reference! Trump is almost universally derided in the age group below 21, they are really the first generation to be "woke" to the ways of mass social media, they are very very cynical of it. But he doesn't need them, they form such a small part of the vote count, he relies on the 30 to 50 bracket to get his votes.

But those under 21s, they will potentially be the ones on the front line if the Trump crap hits the fan, they will be the ones being bashed in riots on the streets, or blown up by rocket propelled grenades, exploded by home built devices or picked off by the disillusioned sniper in social unrest! It won't be the Trumps or Bidens of this world on the front line, maybe it should be!

Already China and other states have called Trump's bluff, they no longer treat him seriously, he made his bureaucratic/political/diplomatic threats and then blinked. But I'd assert the direction he is taking things in now is a little darker, pandering to the global ignorance of the majority of America he is burning the USA from the inside out, with the potential to suck in the rest of the world in the backdraft! Not because he thinks he can put the fire out, but because he thinks he will be safe from it!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 01, 2020, 12:49:28 pm
You clearly boost Trump, how about criticising him for his reprehensible behaviour rather than defending it. You can do that and still argue he is a better option than his opponent, Trump fans do not have to brown-nose to be boosters!

Gotta have the last word, don't you.  You think it's Biden v Trump?  It isn't

L.E.T.  I.T.  G.O.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 01, 2020, 01:22:13 pm
As someone else said. take em both out the back, shoot em, put em in hole and back fill it fast
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 01, 2020, 01:26:13 pm
LP, I'm sure I could find out, but I don't know what % of the US population vote, and I don't know the demographic breakdown of that %. I maintain my previous position that Trump is not the disease, he is the symptom. He is what gets vomited up when people feel they've been sold out and left for dead. The system has been like a giant box of tinder for decades - whether Trump lights the match remains to be seen.

At any rate, I'm trying to talk about oceans, and everyone else seems focussed on puddles. Neither party will do anything about the NRA, or military spending, or environmental policy, or the religious right, or the widening gap between rich and poor..............I could go on. I would say most of us, but certainly the Yanks, are a population distracted from the impoverishment of their existence by a continuous cycle of production and consumption, whether in material terms (junk food, guns etc. ) or in social terms (Hollywood BS propaganda, education, pseudo cultural wars, biblical literalism etc.)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 01, 2020, 01:50:15 pm
The USA is ruled by an aristocracy of billionaires of various factions. Biden and Trump represent two of those factions, neither have the best interests of the american people at heart. They are both tasked with further enrichment of the super rich, albeit by different paths. The big worry about this election is that the losers may decide to burn the whole house down. Brace yourselves, big bombshells ahead.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 01, 2020, 04:06:14 pm
Well, I suppose we all must accept being bullied into silence, no public criticism allowed even if it is only pointing out real facts and truth! ;)

Shhhhh, ........ careful he might hear you! :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 01, 2020, 04:13:55 pm
Gotta have the last word, don't you.  You think it's Biden v Trump?  It isn't

L.E.T.  I.T.  G.O.
What is it then @capcom‍?

The following from earlier looks to be about Biden, but it's not about either?
I'm not about to change my opinion LP.  For all his obvious faults, he's a light year in front of the addle brained Biden.

It's not too hard to see how this sort of debate can degrade, is it?
 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 01, 2020, 05:52:50 pm
No doubt....
But the thing is the divisions exist.
For the most part they stay hidden, bubbling along under the surface.
That kind of suppression is always going to explode at some point.
Trump didn't cause the division but he was the catalyst for its exposure and development.

The Democrats and their supporters, (especially some of the more high-profile) aren't exactly blameless in this situation either.
The language they use, the personal attacks on Trump's appearance and his family, the disparaging of his supporters are in some cases just as hateful as Trump's ravings.

After three years of relentless attacks I suspect the Democrats have realised that if they do win this election that there is a "Piper to be paid."
There will be no instant healing,
The Republicans will respond in exactly the same way their opponents did.
Obstruction and criticism at every turn.
The worst is yet to come.



Perhaps they really should divide the place in half... south and north USA, with different governments etc.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 01, 2020, 06:06:51 pm
Perhaps they really should divide the place in half... south and north USA, with different governments etc.

Not sure the old North /South lines are still appropriate.

It seems to be more an East/West alliance vs a mid America
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 01, 2020, 06:30:33 pm
Not sure the old North /South lines are still appropriate.

It seems to be more an East/West alliance vs a mid America

Woops... forgot the emoji... but, you're right again, it is indeed a deeply divided nation and it is virtually impossible to see how the US can heal.

I think I mentioned a few years back on hear when we were discussing something very similar and the divisions in the US came up, that a dear 'celebrity' Yank friend who is on the talk circuit (though not this year) said to me that we all must remember that the US was settled by religious zealots - and that can only end badly.

Seems to me that nations that 'relegate' religion to a more minor influence are the ones that do better.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: kruddler on October 01, 2020, 06:34:59 pm
Trump didn't create the divisions in America.
His Presidency has just exposed and highlighted them.


...and created a bigger void between them now then has ever existed previously.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 01, 2020, 08:03:04 pm
...and created a bigger void between them now then has ever existed previously.

I reckon those divisions are always there.
He hasn't expanded them so much as brought them to the fore.

We don't have it to the same extent here, but those divisions are also simmering along in our own society.
Take away the extremists at both ends of the spectrum....the nutters, and consider our mainstream.

Our left is very vocal, they'll demonstrate and express their views quite openly. They want to change the world.
Our conservatives are probably equal in number but conservatives don't march...and any demonstrations are usually small.
They tend not to engage in argument to the same extent...they don't feel the need because they're quite happy with existing structures. They're quite happy for the world to stay pretty much as it is.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 02, 2020, 03:14:08 pm
Donald and Melania Trump have tested positive to Covid

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/donald-trump-tests-positive-for-the-coronavirus-so-does-melania/news-story/e8a10fe84e2d01ae1ceca3eef23c6438
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 02, 2020, 03:30:26 pm
Am I wrong to be very cynical, about both the announcement and the timing?

Maybe his GoP party associates have found a way to keep Trump's mouth shut and out of the live debates!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 02, 2020, 03:42:58 pm
It will be interesting to see how both sides play this.

If the Dem's go too hard it will fire up the Trump folk even more.
Missing two weeks in a campaign is (can be) a huge hurdle.
Pence now comes to the forefront...
A very ill Trump may not be able to continue...and thus never really loses the election.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 02, 2020, 03:44:26 pm
Self-inflicted. Karma bus hit him and backed over him. He has a whole medical department to look after him but the other 43,000 Americans who caught Covid over the last 24 hours don’t. Just desserts if he pays the ultimate price. I’m sure a lot of people who lost loved ones because of his depravity have had their prayers answered.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 02, 2020, 03:48:03 pm
Am I wrong to be very cynical, about both the announcement and the timing?

Maybe his GoP party associates have found a way to keep Trump's mouth shut and out of the live debates!

What makes you think it would be GoP members? Could be a cunning ruse.....🤪
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 02, 2020, 03:54:30 pm
You mean one of his aides, Baldrick, told Trump, “I have a cunning plan ...”?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 02, 2020, 04:25:31 pm
You mean one of his aides, Baldrick, told Trump, “I have a cunning plan ...”?

Who knows but we live in very interesting times. Could it be something like Trump sending out the message to the people  "I'm sharing your pain"? A big drama, he gets over it and he's beaten the Big C and he's indestructible?? What a hero!!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 02, 2020, 04:27:25 pm
Who knows but we live in very interesting times. Could it be something like Trump sending out the message to the people  "I'm sharing your pain"? A big drama, he gets over it and he's beaten the Big C and he's indestructible?? What a hero!!
Wonder if he will take his own advice and take a jab of Pine O Clean to kill his Covid..
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 02, 2020, 04:30:48 pm
Wonder if he will take his own advice and take a jab of Pine O Clean to kill his Covid..

😁
He already spends a lot of time under the UV lamp.
Just on the radio that share markets have taken a hit over this news.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 02, 2020, 04:40:45 pm
Rich people worrying that they won’t have anyone to funnel taxpayer money into their pockets via tax cuts & bailouts? Gotta feel for them I guess.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 02, 2020, 05:00:09 pm
Hopefully Dictator Dan gets it too.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 02, 2020, 05:07:45 pm
I wonder if Trump is in love with Dan Andrews because of that nickname Murdoch gave him? He’s probably invited him to the White House already for a military parade.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: kruddler on October 02, 2020, 05:17:07 pm
Am I wrong to be very cynical, about both the announcement and the timing?

That was the first thing i thought of......Is this legit? If not, how would this benefit trump?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 02, 2020, 05:30:48 pm
Hard to see how it helps. The only benefit is that it moves the attention away from Trump playing footsies with the Proud Boys. But it directs attention towards the issue Trump really wants to avoid: covid. It undercuts his assertion covid is a hoax & that hardly anybody can be affected by it. His attacks on Biden wearing masks blow up in his face. Biden can now be magnanimous & declare that he’ll limit himself to remote campaigning so he doesn’t gain an undue advantage (which suits him just fine). Trump loses the ability to cram in rallies while saying they’re completely safe. And the next debate may be confined to zoom which will enable the moderators to cut his mic. Can’t see how it’ll help.

Only Trump fans will rally around the flag. The rest will see this as an own goal.

And how will his fans react to his weakness? Superheroes don’t succumb to the flu. Bolsonaro had to show he was still a tough guy when he caught covid by continuing to go out in public without a mask. Will Trump need to blow off the virus by continuing to host rallies?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 02, 2020, 05:44:55 pm
You mean one of his aides, Baldrick, told Trump, “I have a cunning plan ...”?

Apparently he said, "I have a cunning stunt to solicit sympathy for the President..." ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: kruddler on October 02, 2020, 06:44:25 pm
Hard to see how it helps.

Dunno....there'd be a way though.

At a guess....
- Trump feels like he won the debate, having COVID gives him an out to avoid any future debates for a while and leave more of an imprint on his 'win' to the voters.
- If/when he comes back from COVID he can pump himself up as a superhero for personally defeaing the dreaded COVID.
- .....and he can promote products/services that helped him do that.....getting kickbacks from it of course.
- Perhaps he simply needs a break from being POTUS to recharge his batteries and be out of the public eye for a while and this is the only way that will happen.

or perhaps many more ways i haven't even thought about.

But, its certainly possible.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 02, 2020, 07:35:09 pm
😁
He already spends a lot of time under the UV lamp.
Just on the radio that share markets have taken a hit over this news.
His English counterpart Boris J got very sick with Covid and the Trumpster isn't exactly an advert for men's health so he may struggle a bit like Boris did and it might affect his campaign.. Might help or hinder..
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on October 02, 2020, 07:37:24 pm
His English counterpart Boris J got very sick with Covid and the Trumpster isn't exactly an advert for men's health so he may struggle a bit like Boris did and it might affect his campaign.. Might help or hinder..

no problemo, he's on HCQ.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 02, 2020, 08:27:12 pm
Who said he was ever on HCQ? Trump lies. That’s his MO. He may have asked his doctor to prescribe it so he could claim he took it (but his doctor knew he had to back up any story Trump told, so this would have been unnecessary). But did any credible witness see him ingest the pills?

Remember, he made this ‘admission’ unprompted. It allowed him to claim he’d championed a miracle cure which was utterly safe (he wouldn’t have taken it otherwise!) against the opposition of the fake media & Democrats.

He doesn’t have the guts to be a guinea pig when his doctors would have warned about the risks of side effects (cardiac arrest in this case).

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 02, 2020, 09:09:38 pm
131 pages dedicated to these goons.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 02, 2020, 09:11:59 pm
His English counterpart Boris J got very sick with Covid and the Trumpster isn't exactly an advert for men's health so he may struggle a bit like Boris did and it might affect his campaign.. Might help or hinder..

If indeed he actually has the virus.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 02, 2020, 09:13:29 pm
131 pages dedicated to these goons.

😁🤪
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on October 03, 2020, 06:40:40 am
no problemo, he's on HCQ.

Have you actually looked up anything to do with this drug?  If he's been taking it for 6 months covid is the least of his issues.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: bratblue on October 03, 2020, 08:30:32 am
Trump has been transfered to hospital with the doc claiming fatigue.  Things are getting serious.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 03, 2020, 09:25:23 am
Nth Korea, Turkey, China, Putin,  might take some liberties over the next couple of weeks..
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Professer E on October 03, 2020, 10:10:48 am
And they haven't been for the last three and a bit years?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 03, 2020, 10:38:55 am
Nth Korea, Turkey, China, Putin,  might take some liberties over the next couple of weeks..

They're more likely to when Trump is in the Oval Office... they'd be sh1t scared now that someone who actually knows what they're doing (not Pence) might get to sit on the throne for a while!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 03, 2020, 03:29:34 pm
They're more likely to when Trump is in the Oval Office... they'd be sh1t scared now that someone who actually knows what they're doing (not Pence) might get to sit on the throne for a while!
Yep, once Trump blinked his threats became hollow, now they don't give a rats-arse about him!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on October 03, 2020, 03:40:36 pm
It looks more and more like Donald is 'tanking' - and coming up with 'excuses' as to why he won't get re-elected.

This month we've had the idea of dodgy ballots, vaccines not being ready, and now his whole team is going to be fighting off a killer disease.

Either that, or perhaps the Republicans think the best approach atm is to stop him from talking to anyone for at least 2 weeks.....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 03, 2020, 07:05:19 pm

Okay, I'm just adjusting my aluminium foil hat, yep, in place. Okay, the Orange Rodent embarrassed himself in the debate, his true financial situation is closer to being revealed - and it aint good, he's losing in the polls, Biden hasn't got dementia... yep, nightmare. Okay, how to get out of this mess... great! Get sick, resign from office for health reasons, prevent having to reveal taxes NOT paid, get a handsome pension and then hit the talk circuit for $50,000 per hour. Yep. Problems solved. Now, how to get the doctor to bullshizen for me... or how to bung it on... mmm...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 03, 2020, 07:37:59 pm
Okay, I'm just adjusting my aluminium foil hat, yep, in place. Okay, the Orange Rodent embarrassed himself in the debate, his true financial situation is closer to being revealed - and it aint good, he's losing in the polls, Biden hasn't got dementia... yep, nightmare. Okay, how to get out of this mess... great! Get sick, resign from office for health reasons, prevent having to reveal taxes NOT paid, get a handsome pension and then hit the talk circuit for $50,000 per hour. Yep. Problems solved. Now, how to get the doctor to bullshizen for me... or how to bung it on... mmm...

Resign for health reasons and never actually get beaten at the ballot...
"If I hadn't got sick....."
 
Problem is the conspiracy gets wider as more and more folk at the Supreme Court nominee party actually get sick.
There's another twist there....a couple of those guys may be senators who will have to vote to confirm that nominee.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 07, 2020, 10:57:43 am
FMD, one minute the doctors are telling us they have put Trump on a cocktail of otherwise untested(in context of COVID) and aggressive drugs centred around powerful steroids, then Trump is out "spreading the word" that it was just the like Flu!

Because we all take a bunch of Off-Label use drugs when we get a cold, just to try something different! :o

FYI, "Off-Label" means using a drug in a regime that it isn't officially tested or approved for, in effect an experimental treatment!

The key to dealing with SARS-CoV-2 seems to be;
 - First prevention, it's better than a cure.
 - Second, early detection, the sooner they find an infection that sooner they can treat it!

These are both things Trump denies the US population, yet he seems to be a significant beneficiary of early detection!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 07, 2020, 11:26:35 am
FMD, one minute the doctors are telling us they have put Trump on a cocktail of otherwise untested(in context of COVID) and aggressive drugs centred around powerful steroids, then Trump is out "spreading the word" that it was just the like Flu!

Because we all take a bunch of Off-Label use drugs when we get a cold, just to try something different! :o

FYI, "Off-Label" means using a drug in a regime that it isn't officially tested or approved for, in effect an experimental treatment!

The key to dealing with SARS-CoV-2 seems to be;
 - First prevention, it's better than a cure.
 - Second, early detection, the sooner they find an infection that sooner they can treat it!

These are both things Trump denies the US population, yet he seems to be a significant beneficiary of early detection!

Let's see how many US citizens, who contract C-19, get free or low cost access to the drugs that the Orange Rodent did.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on October 07, 2020, 01:06:07 pm
This is going to be so interesting to see how it plays out. 

A few scenarios.

1.  Trump doesnt actually have COVID and this is just a ruse.

2.  He has COVID, and its not that bad and the world has been over reacting.

3.  He has COVID and its actually bad and he gets seriously ill irrespective of what happens with the election whether he wins or loses.

We wont find out for sure, for some time.





Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 07, 2020, 08:00:13 pm
Scenario 1 doesn’t fly. If he wanted to do this, he could have just stayed in the White House as he did initially and then say he beat it easily b/c he’s an Aryan Superman. Why would he concede that it got to him badly enough to require oxygen, an airlift to a hospital, and then serious drug interventions? If this scenario were true, does this mean that all of his aides & the 3 GOP Senators who’ve tested positive after the ill-fated SCOTUS announcement were also faking it? And would such a ruse be worth his inability to attend rallies for some time despite early voting being underway already?

Scenario 2 is funny. I repeat the stuff about the airlift to hospital and emergency treatment with drugs. If it wasn’t that bad, surely that means Trump overreacted. After all, he was the one who called for the airlift & drug treatment. So I guess Trump’s a major snowflake. And if it wasn’t that bad, surely he would have authorised his personal osteopath to give out all the remarkable medical details which would have enabled the world to marvel at this modern medical miracle. Instead, Trump acted like Basil Fawlty - don’t mention the war, or the oxygen, or the details about the lungs, or how high the temperature was etc etc.

Funny thing is that Chris Cuomo continued to host his CNN show from his basement while seriously affected by Covid. He complained of trouble breathing and that he had ‘rigors’ (spasms causing teeth to chatter etc.) By comparison, what has Trump done apart from walk up some stairs & stand on a balcony? Tough guy my ar$e ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 07, 2020, 08:26:47 pm
By the way, I hope Kamala Harris’ advisers are preparing her for a Trump showstopper: getting Pence to blow past the Perspex dividers in order to approach her for a handshake. Yes, it’s clearly against the rules Pence agreed to, but Trump flouted rules he agreed to in the 1st debate. He arrived late so the hosts couldn’t test him as arranged and then assured them he tested negative at the White House (which now seems to be a lie). Then he his family walked in with masks on and then all took them off when they sat down, refusing to put them back on when approached by organisers.

Clearly, Trump would love to run ads featuring a horrified Harris backing away from a friendly Pence. That’s the sort of dominance display he wants. If I were her adviser, I’d make sure she can legally carry pepper spray to the podium and make sure she can spray him in the eyes as soon as he passes the divider. Seeing Pence writhe in pain on the ground would subvert the dominance display. It would also be a great juxtaposition with the shameful scenes of Trump’s militias using teargas to clear peaceful protestors so he could have a photo op while holding a Bible at a church.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 08, 2020, 07:54:55 am
https://www.tiktok.com/@trumpenstein/video/6879043345755196678?sender_device=pc&sender_web_id=6880984548608722437&is_from_webapp=1
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 08, 2020, 10:34:50 am
Trump is having a ball on his medication and sounds like he's lost the plot - messages from god and now announcing that he'll give the medication he got to all Americans for free...  :))  :))  :))  big pharma is gonna love hearing that, along with many of his Republican buddies...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 08, 2020, 01:00:54 pm
Trump is having a ball on his medication and sounds like he's lost the plot - messages from god and now announcing that he'll give the medication he got to all Americans for free...  :))  :))  :))  big pharma is gonna love hearing that, along with many of his Republican buddies...
How did he get COVID, he was taking HCQ which he claimed prevented COVID? ::)

I assume all those around him were on it too, given how cheap, effective and widely available it is! Yet those around him are falling to COVID like flies in a freezer, what happened did they run out of HCQ? Did Trump buy it all up and forget to give those around him a dose? ;D

Am I cynical to think he has shares in some or all of those related companies? ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 08, 2020, 02:46:20 pm
Pence easily won that, Harris looked out of her depth.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 08, 2020, 02:52:17 pm
Pence easily won that, Harris looked out of her depth.
@madbluboy

I didn't watch or listen to it, but the early polls have Harris winning in a landslide at a 3:1 approval ratio! :o

The US is very different to here, they vote on emotion and rhetoric, not policy!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 08, 2020, 04:18:14 pm
@madbluboy

I didn't watch or listen to it, but the early polls have Harris winning in a landslide at a 3:1 approval ratio! :o

The US is very different to here, they vote on emotion and rhetoric, not policy!

I had the day off and watched it, Pence won easily.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 08, 2020, 04:24:02 pm
@madbluboy

I didn't watch or listen to it, but the early polls have Harris winning in a landslide at a 3:1 approval ratio! :o

The US is very different to here, they vote on emotion and rhetoric, not policy!
I'm pretty sure FOX will give it to Pence and CNN will give it to Harris.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 08, 2020, 04:27:43 pm
I had the day off and watched it, Pence won easily.

Pence was superb and countered her easily.  Playing the gender card doesn't work anymore.

EDIT - the moderator was not up to her job either ... maybe even a little bit biased toward Pence with regard to running over allotted time
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 08, 2020, 05:40:25 pm
I thought Pence won comfortably, Harris made some facial gestures when Pence talked that made her look immature and bratish.
Harris had a good moment talking about Obamacare but didnt handle the tax/economy stuff well IMO and I thought the relaxed smooth approach of Pence was a polar opposite of Harris who only settled when she rambled on about how her and sleepy Joe had similar upbringings/values etc and how proud she was to receive the phone call from Joe, but never actually answered the question. Both Biden and her struggle with the economy and business side of running a country and are much better when it comes to dealing with questions that have a more human focus.
Reckon Trump would be satisfied with Pence but IMO is still a long way off reversing the polls and will lose unless something dramatically changes.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 09, 2020, 01:30:36 pm
Hmmm ... I’m guessing the posters who say Pence won are white guys (correct me if I’m wrong). No criticism there: I’m a white guy too. But would women and people of colour agree? It looks like Trump has a massive problem with women and I doubt they would have been impressed by Pence’s dominance displays such as interrupting and blowing past agreed time limits. I doubt black women in particular would have been impressed by Trump telling Fox that Harris came across as a monster.

The problem with saying X won the debate is that the only result that matters is whether the debate changed minds. Treating it as an academic exercise is missing the point. Both made sure they didn’t alienate those who are currently leaning towards voting for their tickets. The problem is that there’s more leaning towards Biden and historically VP debates don’t change momentum very much.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 09, 2020, 03:50:56 pm
Hmmm ... I’m guessing the posters who say Pence won are white guys (correct me if I’m wrong). No criticism there: I’m a white guy too.

Then why bother saying it?  Any better than Biden saying to a black man "You ain't black" if he voted for Trump?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 09, 2020, 04:18:08 pm
Hmmm ... I’m guessing the posters who say Pence won are white guys (correct me if I’m wrong). No criticism there: I’m a white guy too. But would women and people of colour agree? It looks like Trump has a massive problem with women and I doubt they would have been impressed by Pence’s dominance displays such as interrupting and blowing past agreed time limits. I doubt black women in particular would have been impressed by Trump telling Fox that Harris came across as a monster.

The problem with saying X won the debate is that the only result that matters is whether the debate changed minds. Treating it as an academic exercise is missing the point. Both made sure they didn’t alienate those who are currently leaning towards voting for their tickets. The problem is that there’s more leaning towards Biden and historically VP debates don’t change momentum very much.

A week before the last election a video of Trump was all over the news saying to pick up women all you had to do was grab them by the pussy. His voters didn't care.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 09, 2020, 04:26:11 pm
Trump's relationship with his supporters is that of a cult leader, and as such, expecting rational reactions to what he says or does is futile.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 09, 2020, 04:32:28 pm
Trump's relationship with his supporters is that of a cult leader, and as such, expecting rational reactions to what he says or does is futile.

Apparently the covid cocktail he took contained cells derived from an aborted fetus. Probably not going to go down well with some of his voters.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 09, 2020, 04:44:26 pm
Apparently the covid cocktail he took contained cells derived from an aborted fetus. Probably not going to go down well with some of his voters.

If they were looking at it rationally, then yes, I would agree. I can guarantee you, they will in some manner simply explain it away. Cult leaders are immune from doing any wrong. If they do something lousy, it's swept under the carpet or done for good reason.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 09, 2020, 04:53:16 pm
China pledges to make COVID vaccine free for all, Trump supporters claim Chinese vaccine means tracking chips for everyone! ;D

There goes more Trumps shares plummeting, he will have a brace of nutter supporters and no money!

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 09, 2020, 04:57:15 pm
Apparently the covid cocktail he took contained cells derived from an aborted fetus. Probably not going to go down well with some of his voters.
Little Donald!

(https://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/Quaidquaidstart+the+reactor+free+mars+_461447833e55d2f51b5aee251c84f495.jpg)

If Donald swears on a Bible now, will he burst into flames? :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 09, 2020, 05:16:06 pm
If they were looking at it rationally, then yes, I would agree. I can guarantee you, they will in some manner simply explain it away. Cult leaders are immune from doing any wrong. If they do something lousy, it's swept under the carpet or done for good reason.

So very, very true. And a big part of the US culture... they 'barrack' for their political leaders in a manner that is no different to the blind loyalty of a cult member to its leader. Our US brothers and sisters so identify with their political party that it almost forms part of their psychological make-up and blinds them to the weaknesses of their favoured authority figure.

If Trump was the President AND a Democrat, most Republicans would have been calling for his head years ago... and probably have labelled him the Antichrist.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 09, 2020, 05:17:49 pm
Apparently the covid cocktail he took contained cells derived from an aborted fetus. Probably not going to go down well with some of his voters.

Such a good point and as Pauly said, you watch most Republicans ignore it or explain it away.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 09, 2020, 05:33:43 pm
Then why bother saying it?  Any better than Biden saying to a black man "You ain't black" if he voted for Trump?

Looks like my guess was right.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 09, 2020, 05:41:14 pm
A week before the last election a video of Trump was all over the news saying to pick up women all you had to do was grab them by the pussy. His voters didn't care.
Last election, white women turned out for Trump. This election, it looks like he’s lost them (and he has a problem with seniors & other demos he won easily back then). Not sure dominance displays were the way to win them back. OTOH, it might work with black & Latino men. Who knows?

Biden’s Road to Victory is Paved by Women, Morning Consult (https://morningconsult.com/2020/10/07/women-voters-poll-presidential-election/)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 09, 2020, 06:02:27 pm
Interesting story about the FBI arresting right-wing extremists who conspired to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whittmer with the help of militias. Trump couldn’t bring himself to denounce the plot or the kidnappers-to-be directly (but he did condemn Antifa 😁).

The FBI has consistently warned that right-wing extremists are the biggest terrorist threat. The Oklahoma bombers were right-wing extremists who inflicted the most deaths on US soil (excluding the 9/11 attack). Unfortunate for Trump that the threat was realised, especially when he was egging on the extremists in Michigan.

Wonder if the FBI kept The A/G William Barr out of the loop to avoid him running interference for Trump.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 09, 2020, 06:49:32 pm
Looks like my guess was right.

Your point?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 09, 2020, 06:50:18 pm
Wonder how Harris's record of sending black men to prison will work out for her?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 09, 2020, 07:20:30 pm
I wonder if that’ll attract the Law & Order voters ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 09, 2020, 08:13:05 pm
I wonder if that’ll attract the Law & Order voters ...

Don't most voters support law and order?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 09, 2020, 08:27:06 pm
Don't most voters support law and order?

I've got a feeling it's going to be a bit of a necessity after the election no matter who wins. :(  :(
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 09, 2020, 08:45:40 pm
Don't most voters support law and order?
Yes, but that doesn’t make them Law & Order voters.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 09, 2020, 08:59:49 pm
Yes, but that doesn’t make them Law & Order voters.

Don't both parties support law and order though?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 09, 2020, 09:32:49 pm
Don't both parties support law and order though?

I think, as a general rule, the conservative parties tend to have stronger (i.e more punitive) policies in this space. The more centrist or left leaning parties are typically painted as "soft on crime." In order to alleviate this, they try to up the ante on law and order, which then creates a type of policy arms race, as the conservatives become more hardline to maintain a point of difference. So no matter how tough on crime the moderates become, the conservatives will go further, and are thus the preferred and traditional choice for the "lock em up and throw away the key" brigade.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 09, 2020, 09:50:59 pm
I think, as a general rule, the conservative parties tend to have stronger (i.e more punitive) policies in this space. The more centrist or left leaning parties are typically painted as "soft on crime." In order to alleviate this, they try to up the ante on law and order, which then creates a type of policy arms race, as the conservatives become more hardline to maintain a point of difference. So no matter how tough on crime the moderates become, the conservatives will go further, and are thus the preferred and traditional choice for the "lock em up and throw away the key" brigade.

Fair enough Paul, so you think that the "moderates" set the law and order standards that the "conservatives" have to follow?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 09, 2020, 09:53:26 pm
Don't both parties support law and order though?

Of course, but they differ on what that means.

Trump believes it means that whoever is in power can wield it as a weapon against his political enemies and to hold his allies safe. He doesn’t believe that nobody is above the law. He believes “l’état, c’est moi!” He says the Constitution says he can do anything he likes. This is the dictator’s version of law and order. Taking him on is sedition or treason. Authoritarians love him for that. Remember that it’s not just the guy in power who is an authoritarian. Authoritarian voters love a strongman.

Case in point: General Flynn had pleaded guilty and the Judge had accepted his plea. The Judge was on the verge of sentencing him when Barr instructed the DOJ prosecutors to withdraw the charges. The prosecutors resigned in protest. The Judge refused to dismiss the charges and this case is now wending its way through the courts. Was this really an example of law and order? 

Is Trump’s latest attempt to cajole Barr into prosecuting Biden before Election Day an example of law and order?

The US should ditch the image of Lady Justice holding a set of scales while wearing a blindfold. Those with connections are beyond the reach of justice and those without connections are the sacrificial lambs.

Particularly by comparison with Trump, the Democratic Party ideal is even-handed justice. That doesn’t mean there’s no corruption on the left and that allies aren’t protected. The political system is designed to promote this. Unlike in Australia, the partyin power can gerrymander to preserve its power and judicial appointments are far more political. John Roberts’ Supreme Court in Citizen’s United rejected an attempt to restrict dark money from lobbyists. In the majority’s view, a corporation is a legal person and has a right to influence policy by making donations to politicians. Rich people also have a right to gain favours by making donations. How can anyone expect equal application of the law given this? And the courts are very weak when it comes to cracking down on voter suppression.

So when I say Law & Order voters, I’m not talking about people who believe in justice for all. I’m talking about people who want to see harsh justice meted out by Dirty Harry-style cops against people who aren’t like them. You might not see them in that light. But that’s why the “doesn’t everyone like law and order” question doesn’t hit the spot.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 09, 2020, 10:00:18 pm
Fair enough Paul, so you think that the "moderates" set the law and order standards that the "conservatives" have to follow?

I wouldn't claim to be any kind of expert, but my opinion is that at this stage in the game, it's more of a reinforcement loop. I think each reacts to the other. But for the voters who believe that you can never have enough prisons, or enough prisoners, or enough police, or enough prosecutions, or enough punitive measures etc., the conservatives will always be the party of choice. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 09, 2020, 10:13:44 pm
@Mav
How do you know how l "see people"?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 09, 2020, 10:16:04 pm
I wouldn't claim to be any kind of expert, but my opinion is that at this stage in the game, it's more of a reinforcement loop. I think each reacts to the other. But for the voters who believe that you can never have enough prisons, or enough prisoners, or enough police, or enough prosecutions, or enough punitive measures etc., the conservatives will always be the party of choice.

So that's your "opinion"?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 09, 2020, 10:23:55 pm
So that's your "opinion"?

Yes indeedy.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 09, 2020, 10:27:18 pm
Yes indeedy.

OK, noted.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 10, 2020, 12:37:51 am
I like structure in my society, but not to the point of abuse of  powers.
If the rule is there I tend to follow it, and accept the consequences if I don't.
If you think you've been hard done by you always have the  opportunity to challenge it through the systems available.
I'd consider myself a 'law and order' advocate.

Like a lot of arguments the 'law and order' issue is a spectrum, and as you move closer to the middle, where elections are decided, there isn't a lot of difference in position.

One of the strange things about the Covid situation is that many people normally considered as on the left are probably more strict in terms of 'following the rules' and supportive of the legal restrictions and penalties that have been imposed to control the virus.
They're the 'law and order' people.'
Many on the right (shock jocks especially) are complaining about the 'restrictions of liberties' and calling for a halt to closed borders  etc.
They're the anarchists.

But even that's not set in stone...I  know a number of people who normally vote conservative who will be voting for Labor in the upcoming Queensland election because of the way they've handled the pandemic.

Opinions on Trump are also on a spectrum.
There are folks who genuinely love him.
There are folks that absolutely hate him.
Some folks have a strong dislike for much or most of his behaviour, but don't feel a personal hatred of the man (that's probably where I fit)...and there are all the opinions in-between.
Where you sit on that spectrum will determine how you post and respond in this thread.





Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 10, 2020, 08:28:59 am
@ Lods
Interesting post Lods. So most people are in favour of law and order but different groups of different political  hues can favour different laws and different orders, often to support their own political ends and agendas and sometimes drifting into the draconian. Surprise, surprise.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on October 10, 2020, 08:37:25 am
Yep.  Not to mention those people are driven into it and manipulated by the businessmen who are most financially motivated to do so.  I see the current lockdown environment as a perfect example of what's happening.  Private consulting doctors are the most vocal about the lockdowns and how there must be a better way, public serving doctors are not seeing patients in their public consulting rooms because they have gone to a mixed model of telehealth.  I heard an example where someone travelled a long way to come in (admittedly they missed the detail) and an unsympathetic doctor refused to see said patient anyway even though the appointment was booked it was just supposed to be virtual.  Which is looking after your health and well being?   That's anyones guess, but always look at what someone has to lose if they grandstand about the lockdowns. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 10, 2020, 09:20:26 am
@ Lods
Interesting post Lods. So most people are in favour of law and order but different groups of different political  hues can favour different laws and different orders, often to support their own political ends and agendas and sometimes drifting into the draconian. Surprise, surprise.

Our own position and bias always plays into our assessment.
These personal positions are all different, and are largely framed by our own upbringing and life experiences.

One of the strange things you see in Trump discussions is this...
Democrats and their supporters attack (rightly in most cases) Trump for his disparaging remarks about opponents, his venom, and his dismissive put downs.
How do many respond?
They attack him with venom and personal disparaging remarks about his hair, skin colour, mental inadequacies and family.
You play on Trump's home ground and you give him an advantage.
While those things play well for the committed 'never Trumpers' they don't go over as well for the moderate and uncommitted voter.
On the far extreme they fuel the 'hate' fires and widen the divide.

In contrast one of the most effective anti-Trump bits we've seen was the Jonathan Swan approach in his interview which was calm, measured and for Trump...unsettling.

Despite my concerns about Biden's candidacy, based mainly on his longevity, he's kept himself for the most part largely above the personal attacks and concentrated on policy, issues and Trump's more erratic behaviour.
That seems to be playing well at present.
But this is so unpredictable and who knows what the next act in this circus will be.


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 10, 2020, 09:51:50 am
Trying to fathom how 'justice' is metered out in the US is something of a lottery. Varies from state to state. And then there's the fact that religion is still so strong in the US, with the Old Testament punishments seemingly favoured by the conservatives, especially the hard right, whereas your politically moderate or left Christian seems more in favour of a New Testament understanding of justice.

The one thing is for certain in the US when it comes to their judicial system, I wouldn't want to be poor, black, hispanic, Asian, a woman or gay/lesbian. If I was fronting a judge in the US, I'd sure want to be a tall, handsome, wealthy white guy... or at least be doing so in California and maybe NY.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 10, 2020, 10:18:44 am
@ Lods

Another interesting set of observations Lods. Yes I guess we are each a product of our upbringing. Add to that the environment of constant propaganda and fake news we now have to endure and trying to maintain a balanced view of the world is a constant challenge.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 10, 2020, 02:09:07 pm
....................................................And then there's the fact that religion is still so strong in the US, with the Old Testament punishments seemingly favoured by the conservatives, especially the hard right, whereas your politically moderate or left Christian seems more in favour of a New Testament understanding of justice.
..................................................

Whilst that's generally true, you will find, in amongst a whole lot of nonsense about God being a vindictive tribal deity, the Books of Jonah, Malachi, Amos and Hosea. These are among a group of Old Testament prophets known as the Minor Prophets, and in their work you will find the belief that "Godliness" can be experienced through unconditional love, forgiveness, justice, the absence of prejudice, and a universal, boundless force that connects all things at all times.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 10, 2020, 03:49:35 pm
One of the strange things you see in Trump discussions is this...
Democrats and their supporters attack (rightly in most cases) Trump for his disparaging remarks about opponents, his venom, and his dismissive put downs.
How do many respond?
They attack him with venom and personal disparaging remarks about his hair, skin colour, mental inadequacies and family.
You play on Trump's home ground and you give him an advantage.
While those things play well for the committed 'never Trumpers' they don't go over as well for the moderate and uncommitted voter.
On the far extreme they fuel the 'hate' fires and widen the divide.
"Democrats and their supporters" do not include "Never Trumpers". The latter is the term for erstwhile Republicans who consider Trump unfit for office. Among them are George Conway, Rick Wilson & Anthony Scaramucci, the 1st 2 of whom founded the Lincoln Project whose main weapon has been producing a series of ads for TV & social media mocking Trump. They aren't Democrats nor are they supporters of the Democrats: they have merely embraced the obvious that the only way to get rid of Trump now is for Biden to be elected. Biden has no control over them and in fact their campaign runs counter to the way Biden wants to attack Trump.

The psychologists and psychiatrists who believe Trump is mentally unfit to be President including Dr Bandy Lee and Mary Trump (the niece of Donald Trump) are also not Democrats or their supporters. There's a common thread, though, in their views and the Lincoln Project's attacks on Trump. The psychological picture of Trump being a malignant narcissist and sociopath who has created a cult of blindly loyal followers is why the Lincoln Project believes mockery of Trump is the best weapon to use against Trump. Trump can't stand being diminished and can't resist the temptation to attack the Lincoln Project every time they put out an ad. His tweets and attempts to browbeat various platforms to pull those ads only serve to make them go viral.  There's nothing more lethal to a narcissist's self-esteem than ridicule and mockery and a would-be strongman fears that it will undermine his followers' devotion to him. The founders of the Lincoln Project believe they know the Republican voters' minds better than the Democrats do and are more able to hive off Trump's supporters. Who knows if they're right on this.

Then we have those who are opposed to Trump given his racism and white supremacy. I hope you don't think labelling him in this way is an example of "venom" as they are true descriptions and aren't mere personal attacks. He has earned those decriptors and they are a common thread through his Presidency. Calling him a liar is also just the plain truth. The fact checkers have compiled lists of his lies that now number in the tens of thousands. He doesn't care about telling the truth: his assertions are just "positions" which can and do change on a whim. His administration even has sought to regularise this under the label of "alternative facts".

The only descriptor that may be problematic is "fascist", but if the shoe fits ... . We have Trump refusing to accept the results of the election unless he's reelected, calling on the Proud Boys to stand down and stand by, trying to suppress the vote, and one of his henchmen, Senator Mike Lee, tweeting “Democracy isn’t the objective; liberty, peace, and prospefity are. We want the human condition to flourish. Rank democracy can thwart that.” Isn't fascism about installing a right-wing government in a 1 party state? Calling him a fascist is much more accurate than Trump's labelling of Democrats as communists. 

As for his family, you know that he has many of them working in the White House & his reelection campaign? Ivanka & Jared Kushner are valid political targets and Don Jr & Eric are political flamethrowers and beneficiaries of Trump's self-dealing with his business who can't hide behind the "don't attack the kids" shield. Does anyone much attack Barron Trump, Tiffany Trump or even Melania? I don't think so (and certainly the racist vitriol directed at Michelle Obama when she was 1st Lady dwarfed any that does occur).

Personally, I reckon the Lincoln Project is right. Don't allow Trump to blow past every norm and then confine yourself to a tepid response as if you're at a tea party with society matrons.  If he does something outrageous, call him out for it over a loudspeaker. Thankfully, the press has now grown out of the ridiculous "both sides are bad" routine. Now instead of saying Trump has made a racially-tinged comment, they label it racist. And Jamelle Hill can now say Trump's a white supremacist without being met with righteous indignation. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 10, 2020, 04:53:46 pm
Whilst that's generally true, you will find, in amongst a whole lot of nonsense about God being a vindictive tribal deity, the Books of Jonah, Malachi, Amos and Hosea. These are among a group of Old Testament prophets known as the Minor Prophets, and in their work you will find the belief that "Godliness" can be experienced through unconditional love, forgiveness, justice, the absence of prejudice, and a universal, boundless force that connects all things at all times.

Absolutely, but sadly, as you point out they are regarded as the Minor Prophets and conveniently? forgotten when vengeance is sought and prejudice upheld - uniquely human expressions. Many of the hard right, Conservative Christians (WTF!) would rather have died that afforded the Obamas, when running the country, such Christian love... or any Democrat for that matter.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 10, 2020, 05:00:44 pm
"Democrats and their supporters" do not include "Never Trumpers". The latter is the term for erstwhile Republicans who consider Trump unfit for office. Among them are George Conway, Rick Wilson & Anthony Scaramucci, the 1st 2 of whom founded the Lincoln Project whose main weapon has been producing a series of ads for TV & social media mocking Trump. They aren't Democrats nor are they supporters of the Democrats: they have merely embraced the obvious that the only way to get rid of Trump now is for Biden to be elected. Biden has no control over them and in fact their campaign runs counter to the way Biden wants to attack Trump.

The psychologists and psychiatrists who believe Trump is mentally unfit to be President including Dr Bandy Lee and Mary Trump (the niece of Donald Trump) are also not Democrats or their supporters. There's a common thread, though, in their views and the Lincoln Project's attacks on Trump. The psychological picture of Trump being a malignant narcissist and sociopath who has created a cult of blindly loyal followers is why the Lincoln Project believes mockery of Trump is the best weapon to use against Trump. Trump can't stand being diminished and can't resist the temptation to attack the Lincoln Project every time they put out an ad. His tweets and attempts to browbeat various platforms to pull those ads only serve to make them go viral.  There's nothing more lethal to a narcissist's self-esteem than ridicule and mockery and a would-be strongman fears that it will undermine his followers' devotion to him. The founders of the Lincoln Project believe they know the Republican voters' minds better than the Democrats do and are more able to hive off Trump's supporters. Who knows if they're right on this.

Then we have those who are opposed to Trump given his racism and white supremacy. I hope you don't think labelling him in this way is an example of "venom" as they are true descriptions and aren't mere personal attacks. He has earned those decriptors and they are a common thread through his Presidency. Calling him a liar is also just the plain truth. The fact checkers have compiled lists of his lies that now number in the tens of thousands. He doesn't care about telling the truth: his assertions are just "positions" which can and do change on a whim. His administration even has sought to regularise this under the label of "alternative facts".

The only descriptor that may be problematic is "fascist", but if the shoe fits ... . We have Trump refusing to accept the results of the election unless he's reelected, calling on the Proud Boys to stand down and stand by, trying to suppress the vote, and one of his henchmen, Senator Mike Lee, tweeting “Democracy isn’t the objective; liberty, peace, and prospefity are. We want the human condition to flourish. Rank democracy can thwart that.” Isn't fascism about installing a right-wing government in a 1 party state? Calling him a fascist is much more accurate than Trump's labelling of Democrats as communists. 

As for his family, you know that he has many of them working in the White House & his reelection campaign? Ivanka & Jared Kushner are valid political targets and Don Jr & Eric are political flamethrowers and beneficiaries of Trump's self-dealing with his business who can't hide behind the "don't attack the kids" shield. Does anyone much attack Barron Trump, Tiffany Trump or even Melania? I don't think so (and certainly the racist vitriol directed at Michelle Obama when she was 1st Lady dwarfed any that does occur).

Personally, I reckon the Lincoln Project is right. Don't allow Trump to blow past every norm and then confine yourself to a tepid response as if you're at a tea party with society matrons.  If he does something outrageous, call him out for it over a loudspeaker. Thankfully, the press has now grown out of the ridiculous "both sides are bad" routine. Now instead of saying Trump has made a racially-tinged comment, they label it racist. And Jamelle Hill can now say Trump's a white supremacist without being met with righteous indignation. 

Impressive post, MAV, very impressive.

Oh, there's one other thing narcissists cannot tolerate or handle... accountability. Brings them undone.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 10, 2020, 05:15:11 pm
Absolutely, but sadly, as you point out they are regarded as the Minor Prophets and conveniently? forgotten when vengeance is sought and prejudice upheld - uniquely human expressions. Many of the hard right, Conservative Christians (WTF!) would rather have died that afforded the Obamas, when running the country, such Christian love... or any Democrat for that matter.

This isn't really the place to discuss this, but the Bible is a mass of contradictions, and you can find a quote to justify anything you want - indeed this is what has been happening for centuries. As I've said elsewhere, there's nothing inherently evil about religion, or science, or politics or anything else. Tyranny begins and ends in the heart, and if we keep practicing self exaltation and the externalisation of evil, we will never create a better society for all. What you see in mainstream Christianity today has little to do the original teachings of Jesus and his original followers. The Church married the empire in the 3rd or 4th century, and that was the beginning of the end. Although there are pockets here and there of more progressive thinkers.

Back on topic, one could argue that Chris is a little strident, but I agree 100% with what he says :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-7pZnvVzI8
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 10, 2020, 05:37:58 pm
@ Mav
I remember we had similar discussions and arguments back in 2016
You've read a whole lot more into what I've written than I was actually suggesting.
I was just pointing out that I found it strange that one one hand people get upset about his personal assaults on others yet resort to very similar 'personal' comments against him regarding his appearance, mental abilities and his family members (yep, fair game politically but not personally, especially his  youngest).

The argument I guess is what's the best way to attack Trump.
You seem to agree it's the confrontational approach....
I'd argue it's the more moderate tack that Biden seems to be adopting.
Perhaps it's a bit of A and a bit of B.
My concern is that the former approach may be most effective in winning the election but it raises real concerns as to the sort of angry aftermath there will be post election.

That's actually my whole concern because I think he's done and dusted this time barring some calamity.
But if America thinks it can mend the divide quickly I suspect they have a long and difficult road ahead.
Biden's victory needs to be decisive.


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 10, 2020, 05:44:13 pm
@ Lods

Balanced post Lods. Much to play out yet in this election imo. Hopefully things don't descend into chaos and violence.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 10, 2020, 06:03:31 pm
This isn't really the place to discuss this, but the Bible is a mass of contradictions, and you can find a quote to justify anything you want - indeed this is what has been happening for centuries. As I've said elsewhere, there's nothing inherently evil about religion, or science, or politics or anything else. Tyranny begins and ends in the heart, and if we keep practicing self exaltation and the externalisation of evil, we will never create a better society for all. What you see in mainstream Christianity today has little to do the original teachings of Jesus and his original followers. The Church married the empire in the 3rd or 4th century, and that was the beginning of the end. Although there are pockets here and there of more progressive thinkers.

Back on topic, one could argue that Chris is a little strident, but I agree 100% with what he says :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-7pZnvVzI8

Well, no argument here, Pauly. Thank you for introducing me to Chris Hedges.

I mentioned on this forum quite a while ago that I ran in the 1993 election and not as a member of Labor or Liberal and when I was interviewed by the ABC I commented, way back then, that voting for either of the major parties was making a decision as to whether I'd rather be hit over the head with a baseball bat or cricket bat - most of us have been voting for the lesser of two evils most of our adult lives. I survived a year in politics and pulled the pin myself as the party I'd joined, though well meaning, was filled with academics and intellectuals who actually didn't know how to make things happen in the real world... which was a pity, a huge pity.

Yes, Constantine, the consummate politician, is the real Founder of Christianity.

You're right, Pauly, this is not the place/forum for such chats but we sure are on the same page in many respects, however, I would add to your comment re it all starting and finishing with the heart that whilst humans are trained from birth to be fearful that we will continue to be easy to manipulate. Fear, to my way of thinking, is the opposite of love. As an interesting aside, recent studies of the conservative v progressive people's brains found that the 'fear centre' is far more active in the brain of conservatives!

Are you familiar with Robert Reich's work?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 10, 2020, 06:20:21 pm
Trump’s more into the Third Reich’s work  ^-^
And yes, I know you’re talking about the former Labor Secretary. He’s a pretty reasonable voice.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 10, 2020, 06:43:46 pm
That's actually my whole concern because I think he's done and dusted this time barring some calamity.
But if America thinks it can mend the divide quickly I suspect they have a long and difficult road ahead.
Biden's victory needs to be decisive.
I agree a landslide result would be ideal. But it needs to be a landslide in the Congress too. Biden’s belief he can work across the aisle is naive. If McConnell remains in control of the Senate, he’ll just resort to total opposition again.

A landslide in the Presidential election would at least avoid the nightmare scenarios Trump might exploit to steal the election. In the swing States controlled by the GOP legislatures and/or Governors, the fear is that 2 slates of College electors will be sent to Congress: 1 in favour of Biden if he wins the most votes & 1 in favour of Trump because, you know, electoral fraud. If they can prevent Biden having an undisputed majority of 270 Electoral College votes, it will fall to the House of Reps to make a decision. If the GOP Reps refuse to honour the election results, the House will vote on the new President. But here’s the shocker: the majority won’t make the decision. Instead, each State will have 1 vote. So Alaska will have as many votes as California. Presently, the Democrats have a big majority in the House but if a vote were conducted right now the Republicans would win the vote. Hopefully, a blue wave in the Congressional elections will change that and take this horror scenario off the table.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: dodge on October 10, 2020, 08:02:21 pm
It would be interesting to understand the motivations of people to enrol to vote.   I suspect that there would have to be a huge injection of new 'enrolees' voting for Bidden in order for Trump to lose (and be in the right regions).  Most of those already enrolled would be doing so because they support a party and vote those lines, so can't imagine much of a change.

Voting for change as a population is harder than status quo.

Polling is now unreliable, particularly if done the traditional way.  
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 10, 2020, 08:10:34 pm
If it wasn't for covid Trump would win easy.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 10, 2020, 08:20:24 pm
If it wasn't for covid Trump would win easy.
If it wasn’t for Trump, covid wouldn’t be winning so easily.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 10, 2020, 08:23:23 pm
If it wasn’t for Trump, covid wouldn’t be winning so easily.

Is Trump the President of Europe?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 10, 2020, 08:23:38 pm
Or India?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 10, 2020, 08:32:52 pm
No, he’s just the President of a superpower with a death toll of 214,000 people. Fantastic effort!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 10, 2020, 08:35:07 pm
No, he’s just the President of a superpower with a death toll of 214,000 people. Fantastic effort!

That's like blaming Scomo for Victoria's death toll. Moronic.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 10, 2020, 08:38:47 pm
That's like blaming Scomo for Victoria's death toll. Moronic.
 Aged care and pandemics as well as other global health issues are a Federal Government responsibility.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 10, 2020, 08:47:00 pm
Aged care and pandemics as well as other global health issues are a Federal Government responsibility.

Bullcrap.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 10, 2020, 08:52:54 pm
Did Scomo claim covid was a hoax and it would magically disappear (while admitting privately that it was a very lethal disease)? Did he mock masks & social distancing? Did he throw the pandemic briefing book left by the outgoing administration in the bin? Did he pull his own pandemic expert out of Wuhan prior to the outbreak? Did he kick the pandemic experts off the national security team? Did he ignore the scientists and appoint his own man as pandemic czar to suppress information about covid rather than to suppress covid? Did he push dangerous miracle cures to show that normal measures against respiratory diseases weren’t required? I’m exhausted now even though I’ve only scratched the surface  :-[
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 10, 2020, 09:02:37 pm
He is a nut job but he didn't great covid.

Each state has handled it different over there.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 10, 2020, 09:14:54 pm
Well, no argument here, Pauly. Thank you for introducing me to Chris Hedges.

I mentioned on this forum quite a while ago that I ran in the 1993 election and not as a member of Labor or Liberal and when I was interviewed by the ABC I commented, way back then, that voting for either of the major parties was making a decision as to whether I'd rather be hit over the head with a baseball bat or cricket bat - most of us have been voting for the lesser of two evils most of our adult lives. I survived a year in politics and pulled the pin myself as the party I'd joined, though well meaning, was filled with academics and intellectuals who actually didn't know how to make things happen in the real world... which was a pity, a huge pity.

Yes, Constantine, the consummate politician, is the real Founder of Christianity.

You're right, Pauly, this is not the place/forum for such chats but we sure are on the same page in many respects, however, I would add to your comment re it all starting and finishing with the heart that whilst humans are trained from birth to be fearful that we will continue to be easy to manipulate. Fear, to my way of thinking, is the opposite of love. As an interesting aside, recent studies of the conservative v progressive people's brains found that the 'fear centre' is far more active in the brain of conservatives!

Are you familiar with Robert Reich's work?

Coincidentally, the only thing I know about Robert Reich is a 10 minute YT clip by Richard Wolff, which I only watched this morning. Filtered through Wolff's eyes, he sounds like an advocate for the Nordic Model, i.e capitalism with lots of regulation and government intervention. Basically a belief that capitalism can be fixed and made to work.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 10, 2020, 09:18:02 pm
Of course he didn’t create it. If he had, it would have been a half-ar$ed thing that would have been a minor inconvenience at best. Maybe it would have turned people orange.

But the US President is supposed to protect Americans from all external threats, and pandemics well-and-truly qualify. He himself said he was a wartime president and insinuated that China was attacking the US. So what does the wartime president do? Nothing, of course. The Governors and the drug companies were left to deal with it while he heckled from the sidelines while calling for militias to “liberate your states”.

That perhaps was his greatest success. The wolverines almost kidnapped the Governor of Michigan. If only the Deep State in the FBI hadn’t stuffed things up ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 10, 2020, 09:20:19 pm
If Hillary Clinton was president of the US do you think the covid numbers would be much different?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 10, 2020, 09:32:04 pm
Yep. If he’d left Tony Fauci in charge, even Trump would have done much better.

Interesting fact: the US Postal Service planned to send 5 masks to every household in the US. Trump vetoed this plan.

And here’s the story of Trump’s brilliant move to withdraw the epidemiologist embedded in China who would have been able to give the US early warning over covid: Trump says China “should have told us” about coronavirus. He removed the official meant to do that: Vox (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/3/23/21190713/coronavirus-trump-china-cdc-embed-quick).

Just imagine - in a parallel universe, Trump didn’t yank Dr Quick and hundreds of thousands of Americans didn’t die. Wow ...

And just in, there was a proposal for a mask mandate for passengers on public transport. It had the support of HHS but Pence’s Coronavirus Taskforce refused to even discuss the proposal.

So, yeah, I blame Trump for the disastrous US covid response. To say if it wasn’t for covid, Trump’s performance as President would have been brilliant is like saying that a guy who strips all the safety features from a plane was doing great things and he was just unlucky that they had a few crashes.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on October 10, 2020, 11:24:32 pm
The states have 350 million people 

For a country that has not locked everything up like we have their death rate is probably a similar percentage to ours. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2020, 12:13:20 am
Let’s crunch the numbers.

With a population of 25,670,300, Australia has had 897 deaths. With a population of 328.2 million, the US has had 214,000 deaths. Per 100,000 people, the death rate is 3.5 in Aus & 65.2 in the USA. The US death rate is over 18 times Australia’s.

Feel free to post your own calculations. I took the first stats that appeared in the google searches, so better stats might be out there.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on October 11, 2020, 08:07:08 am
Let’s crunch the numbers.

With a population of 25,670,300, Australia has had 897 deaths. With a population of 328.2 million, the US has had 214,000 deaths. Per 100,000 people, the death rate is 3.5 in Aus & 65.2 in the USA. The US death rate is over 18 times Australia’s.

Feel free to post your own calculations. I took the first stats that appeared in the google searches, so better stats might be out there.

Did they lock 20% of the country in isolation for 6 months to achieve that?

As a percentage of total population how do our stats look? 

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

On this ranking our case fatality rate is actually higher.

Did we just end up with more vulnerable infected or how does this stat work?

FYI even with the numbers you counted as a proportion of population the number of dead still comes to under 1% in both nations cases.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 11, 2020, 08:45:40 am
Coincidentally, the only thing I know about Robert Reich is a 10 minute YT clip by Richard Wolff, which I only watched this morning. Filtered through Wolff's eyes, he sounds like an advocate for the Nordic Model, i.e capitalism with lots of regulation and government intervention. Basically a belief that capitalism can be fixed and made to work.

...only with strict govt regulations, as you mentioned.

I see what Reich is on about as an achievable first step and one reasonably palatable to the community at large. He was a senior minister and friend of the Clintons, until he realised that they'd stiffed him and were deep down inside, as you point out, just more of the same. He resigned disillusioned and started campaigning on his own. His Netflix doco, Saving Capitalism (not really) is terrific and enlightening viewing.

Starting with something like he advocates would point us in the right direction, but, ultimately, your mate Chris Hedges is absolutely right and where we need to be if we're to survive as a species. I'm not optimistic.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 11, 2020, 08:49:06 am
Imagine if we had 300 million people here and 50 states?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2020, 09:40:07 am
The numbers give you the answer: we’d have 200,000 fewer deaths than the US!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 11, 2020, 09:44:05 am
Do a Google search for "Trump's handling of covid". Say what you like about other aspects of his presidency, but it makes for pretty dismal reading.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 11, 2020, 10:09:52 am
The numbers give you the answer: we’d have 200,000 fewer deaths than the US!

Really? NSW has more people than Victoria.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 11, 2020, 10:40:38 am
US numbers don't look good anyway you look at it
But there are so many variables that play into this including State structures and responsibilities, population density and movement that comparisons are difficult.
There is a wide variation in state numbers.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

Contrast Alaska and Hawaii which can be locked down and separated much more easily than say New York.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 11, 2020, 11:04:56 am
@ Lods

From what I understand there are many anomalies and inconsisties in the way data is collected and stats put together so reported numbers should be treated with caution.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 11, 2020, 11:18:37 am
Condemnation of Trump's handling of covid is widespread, bordering on universal. There are no guarantees in anything - even if his handling of it was beyond reproach, the numbers may still have been the same. But that's no excuse for the way he conducted himself : reckless and negligent.

Whatever good things he has achieved are completely swamped by a whole lot of negatives. He will undoubtedly go down as the worst president in US history, and with good reason.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 11, 2020, 11:33:01 am
If we are to learn anything about how best to manage this virus we should be basing that learning on accurate data and information.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 11, 2020, 11:59:57 am
@ Lods

From what I understand there are many anomalies and inconsisties in the way data is collected and stats put together so reported numbers should be treated with caution.

Yep
We've got a wide variation in how the pandemic has been handled in just a half a dozen states.
Imagine the variation in 50.

One thing is pretty certain Trump's behaviour in the last fortnight would have damaged him amongst moderate and swinging voters.

Covid cost him
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2020, 12:08:39 pm
And that’s another thing the US did badly. In the early days, Trump failed to ensure the availability of testing kits. Doctors had to ration them and they chose to use them only on the living. If someone died before they had been tested, the death couldn’t be recorded as a covid death even if that was the obvious COD.

Then, states like Florida found it was easier to reduce the case statistics by massaging them rather than to stop the spread of covid, sacking the statisticians who wouldn’t go along with the plan.

And then Trump mandated that Hospitals cease sending their stats to the CDC and instead send them to the DHS (which is more under Trump’s control).

Chances are the US death tally is an undercount, which is pretty amazing given the astounding total.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 11, 2020, 12:14:30 pm
Covid cost him

Let's wait and see on that and biden's miracle numbers turnaround .... on that and law and order.  I'm on record as saying I'm no great fan of trump, but uneasy wears the crown for sleepy, if he wins
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 11, 2020, 12:39:02 pm
Let's wait and see on that and biden's miracle numbers turnaround .... on that and law and order.  I'm on record as saying I'm no great fan of trump, but uneasy wears the crown for sleepy, if he wins

No doubt.
Trumps a bit like a snake.
You won't really be sure he's dead until sundown.
He'll still have the ability to bite and poison even when you think he's dead.
And as we saw last time don't take anything for granted...especially with the electoral college situation.

The thing is though that there are a rusted on group at both extremes.
They're not going to change their vote.
The election will be won in the moderate/swinging voter range.
I just can't see how the last fortnight would swing voters in this range towards Trump given his behaviour and attitude during his "surprisingly short and seemingly minimal" illness.

However having said that who knows what influences or events could play into the next couple of weeks.
Expect the unexpected.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 11, 2020, 12:40:31 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/there-s-one-headline-about-donald-trump-that-has-not-been-printed-but-makes-the-most-sense-of-all-20201008-p563b7.html

Who knew ?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2020, 01:04:16 pm
Don’t worry, that won’t change the minds of his supporters. They’ll be thinking, “No way, man! He’s a brilliant showman who’s owning the libs. It’s like he’s playing multi-dimensional chess!” The reality is he’s more like a wild animal driven by base instincts such as fear and the need to dominate. Just the sort of guy who’s cut out for public service ...

Given how dangerous Trump is, could there be a stunning endorsement of Joe Biden soon by ... George Dubya Bush? Can’t say I’m a big fan of his, but he has more decency in his little finger than exists in the Trump clan and he could swing moderate conservatives.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 11, 2020, 01:17:48 pm
His words, behaviours, actions etc. have been analysed by a million and one mental health professionals over the last 4 years, and he's been found seriously wanting. If his supporters don't admit his pathologies now, they should be struck off the electoral roll, because in my view, they're not fit to vote. Opinion and choice should not be an unlimited field - at some point you have to draw the line. He's not fit for office, and should never have been a candidate in the first place.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 11, 2020, 02:17:28 pm
That's an interesting insight Paul. Doesn't sound very democratic,  in fact more like a step toward tyranny - not like you at all if I may say so.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 11, 2020, 02:35:33 pm
That's an interesting insight Paul. Doesn't sound very democratic,  in fact more like a step toward tyranny - not like you at all if I may say so.

I can't be Marge Simpson all the time.  ;D

Saying his supporters should be removed from the electoral roll was over-egging my feelings somewhat, and I don't really mean it. But you do have to wonder about the way information is presented / concealed and processed in modern western democracies. Trump is off the charts in terms of unfitness for office. I've seen a few vox pop things from his supporters, and their fondness for him seems centred on "he speaks his mind", "doesn't take crap from anyone", "puts America first", which don't give me much confidence tbh.

Is there any psychometric testing for presidential candidates, or any political office at all in the US ? This is fairly common even for lowly positions in the corporate world, and you would think should be a non negotiable, bare minimum for the most powerful job in the world.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on October 11, 2020, 03:12:44 pm
I read a chilling article recently that analysed why folk support Trump.  It seems that many don’t necessarily care about his policies and agenda.  They are simply happy that he has given them licence to be as racist, sexist, anti-progressive, and as armed to the teeth as they like.

For a nation that is keen on forcing “democracy” on others, the USA’s version of democracy leaves a lot to be desired.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 11, 2020, 04:39:04 pm
@ DJC

I think we all know that " bringing democracy" in US parlance means looting and exploitation by the forces of greed. This has been the case for many decades, even before Trump and no doubt will continue after him.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 11, 2020, 06:37:57 pm
The history books will be most scathing of Trump and his regime, regardless of when it ends. An embarrassment that his relatives will have to cop for generations.

And for those studying psychology and psychiatry... a case study of severe Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) in real time, captured by cameras and microphones, right before their eyes.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 11, 2020, 06:45:54 pm
The democrats behaviour during his tenure has been as bad if not worse.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 11, 2020, 07:10:13 pm
The democrats behaviour during his tenure has been as bad if not worse.

Now come on MBB, you're having a giggle to yourself, aren't you? Got us with that one, eh? Taking the p1ss big time...

The Democrats have hardly been impressive... but next to Trump, they're Christ-like. Just for starters, how about rolling out the daily lies from those you believe are worse than Trump?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on October 11, 2020, 07:14:32 pm
The democrats behaviour during his tenure has been as bad if not worse.

How exactly?

They control the House but can't pass laws, issue executive orders, withdraw from treaties or trade agreements, defund agencies, sack cabinet members, hire family members, raise tariffs or build walls.  Of course, they are free to encourage extremism and to lie and/or talk gibberish but none could hold a candle to the POTUS in those endeavours. 

Or do you mean the Democrat governors?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 11, 2020, 07:15:26 pm
The democrats behaviour during his tenure has been as bad if not worse.

Many have certainly made it clear that they never really accepted the result and looked for every excuse to remove Trump.
I think it will be interesting after the election.
Will the Republicans look to 'square up' or will more moderate sections of the party seek to adopt a more conciliatory approach?
Having set the standard in opposition can the Democrats expect a better response?
I'm pretty sure the hard-core Trump supporters won't let go easily, so the Democrats won't be afforded and easy transition anyway.

A key to how things develop will be how decisive any Biden  victory is...and whether the Democrats can control both the House and Senate.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2020, 07:37:29 pm
Mitch McConnell was responsible for implementing total opposition during Obama’s 2 terms once they gained the Senate majority in 2010. It didn’t matter how conciliatory Obama was, he was never able to get anything through the Senate.

The GOP had control of both houses in Trump’s 1st 2 years & the Senate in the last 2. In the last 2 years, McConnell used his position to prevent any Bills going to a vote if Trump didn’t like them, even if there were enough votes in the Senate to pass them. He made sure Trump never had to veto any legislation. He even made sure no witnesses were called before the Senate when Trump was impeached.

The notion that the Democrats have behaved badly in Congress and will reap what they sowed is quite amusing!

And before anyone says that the impeachment was beyond the pail: (1) Trump was guilty as hell and was saved only by McConnell’s willingness to abandon the Senate’s obligation to scrutinise executive action, & (2) the never-ending Benghazi inquiry was a purely political attempt by the Republican’s (successful as it turned out) to diminish Hillary Clinton before she ran for the Presidency.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 11, 2020, 07:54:39 pm
Mitch McConnell was responsible for implementing total opposition during Obama’s 2 terms once they gained the Senate majority in 2010. It didn’t matter how conciliatory Obama was, he was never able to get anything through the Senate.

The GOP had control of both houses in Trump’s 1st 2 years & the Senate in the last 2. In the last 2 years, McConnell used his position to prevent any Bills going to a vote if Trump didn’t like them, even if there were enough votes in the Senate to pass them. He made sure Trump never had to veto any legislation. He even made sure no witnesses were called before the Senate when Trump was impeached.

The notion that the Democrats have behaved badly in Congress and will reap what they sowed is quite amusing!

And before anyone says that the impeachment was beyond the pail: (1) Trump was guilty as hell and was saved only by McConnell’s willingness to abandon the Senate’s obligation to scrutinise executive action, & (2) the never-ending Benghazi inquiry was a purely political attempt by the Republican’s (successful as it turned out) to diminish Hillary Clinton before she ran for the Presidency.

It really wont matter how we perceive it though.
It's how individual Americans see things that will determine any kick-back.
I'm not confident that many will go quietly into the night.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 11, 2020, 08:25:27 pm
It really wont matter how we perceive it though.
It's how individual Americans see things that will determine any kick-back.
I'm not confident that many will go quietly into the night.
They can only perceive what is delivered to them via Fox, Facebook and a handful of other questionable sources.

The media and big social media know Trumps threat's are empty, he wins populist votes by claiming he is going to call them into line, if they were genuinely threatened he already be a dead man walking but they are not scared of him in even the slightest!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 11, 2020, 08:41:11 pm
They can only perceive what is delivered to them via Fox, Facebook and a handful of other questionable sources.

The media know Trumps threats are empty, if they were threatened he already be a dead man walking, but they are not scared of him in the slightest!


That's the issue though, millions don't see them as questionable sources.
Millions perceive them as gospel and fighting the good fight.
For them the questionable sources, the biased ones, are on the other side.
We might regard that as poor judgement.
We might believe they've got it terribly wrong.... but we can't deny it's existence when polls still put hard support for Trump at 30-40% of all voters.
In their eyes any bias exists on the other side...and yes they will see Democrat efforts over the last 4 years as obstructive.


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 11, 2020, 09:05:21 pm
Who gives a f***! If Biden wins and the Democrats control Congress, they better not avoid making “controversial” decisions in the vain hope that the Republicans will be constructive. Obama introduced the Affordable Care Act over total opposition from the Republicans. Try as they might, the Republicans haven’t been able to kill it even with total control of the White House & Congress. It remains popular and the Republicans know the genie is out of the bottle.

If Obama had wimped out, he would have achieved nothing. Even if the Democrats only have 2 years to make some changes, they should go hard. Don’t let the conservatives veto everything.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on October 11, 2020, 10:44:11 pm
Why are most of Americans presidentential candidates old and senile? 

My sisters father in law at their age drive a car into a stationary fence and didn't even realise he had clipped it. 

My mum's 69 and she is starting to become forgetful and has more health issues than ever before.



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 11, 2020, 11:03:51 pm
Why are most of Americans presidentential candidates old and senile? 

My sisters father in law at their age drive a car into a stationary fence and didn't even realise he had clipped it. 

My mum's 69 and she is starting to become forgetful and has more health issues than ever before.
It's old money!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 12, 2020, 08:02:54 am
Why are most of Americans presidentential candidates old and senile? 

My sisters father in law at their age drive a car into a stationary fence and didn't even realise he had clipped it. 

My mum's 69 and she is starting to become forgetful and has more health issues than ever before.

Kamala is the real candidate.  If Joe wins she will take over in short order.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 12, 2020, 08:20:46 am
Kamala is the real candidate.  If Joe wins she will take over in short order.

You're right, Fluffy One, this is a very real possibility.

I don't know much about Kamala but I do know enough about the other 3 -- Trump/Biden/Pence -- to suggest that none of them is up to the Presidency. In fact I wouldn't put any of them in charge of a chook raffle.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 12, 2020, 08:33:30 am
Read somewhere that she does not have the voter appeal to be the Prez candidate, in fact is disliked by too many people. By contrast Joe can be presented as a decent old guy and a safe pair of hands, if you'll forgive the expression.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 12, 2020, 08:53:15 am
By contrast Joe can be presented as a decent old guy and a safe pair of hands, if you'll forgive the expression.

Nice one Cookie 8)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 12, 2020, 09:39:12 am
Biden's a Trojan Horse. ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2020, 09:46:06 am
Why are most of Americans presidentential candidates old and senile? 

My sisters father in law at their age drive a car into a stationary fence and didn't even realise he had clipped it. 

My mum's 69 and she is starting to become forgetful and has more health issues than ever before.
There’s mandatory retirement for many judges at 72 in Australia. I suppose it would be more difficult to tell oldies they can’t run for office, but the US Senate has a helluva lot of old guys and you wonder how active they are. Old guys dying in office isn’t rare over there.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 12, 2020, 09:59:36 am
Kamala is the real candidate.  If Joe wins she will take over in short order.

Interesting thought cookie.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2020, 10:28:51 am
Read somewhere that she does not have the voter appeal to be the Prez candidate, in fact is disliked by too many people.
She has 3 strikes against her: she’s a woman, Black & Asian. That means at least a third of the population is against her. At least Tiger Woods is a bloke! Heads will explode if in 2004 it’s Harris v Nikki Haley.

Having said that, Harris’ accent annoys me but I presume it’s just the accent of the place in which she grew up. It also reminds me of some cartoon character, maybe the wife on Family Guy? The other thing that annoys is a tendency to act as if she’s about to say something earth-shattering with a bit of posturing and a long pause. But if she does get the big job and does well, I can live with that.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 12, 2020, 10:33:58 am
Understand that she's not too popular with black males.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2020, 10:48:42 am
Some believe her work as a DA would put off younger black men as might anyone who’d been a cop or prosecutor. Is that just the right-wing echo chamber hoping to make it a thing or is it a real issue? Who knows ...

Was she just doing her job as a prosecutor (working in a system that was probably loaded against blacks) or did she cross lines? I haven’t read anything that might answer that question.

Her work as a prosecutor may also comfort more centrist voters. It also creates a problem for the GOP: can she be both a BLM revolutionary and too tough on blacks? No doubt the hope is that they can use targetted advertising on social media to paint her as the former to white people and the latter to black men.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 12, 2020, 11:06:30 am
Some believe her work as a DA would put off younger black men as might anyone who’d been a cop or prosecutor. Is that just the right-wing echo chamber hoping to make it a thing or is it a real issue? Who knows ...

Was she just doing her job as a prosecutor (working in a system that was probably loaded against blacks) or did she cross lines? I haven’t read anything that might answer that question.

Her work as a prosecutor may also comfort more centrist voters. It also creates a problem for the GOP: can she be both a BLM revolutionary and too tough on blacks? No doubt the hope is that they can use targetted advertising on social media to paint her as the former to white people and the latter to black men.

Yep, easy for the media to paint people - even orange!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 12, 2020, 11:11:25 am
I thought it was Trump who painted himself orange.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 12, 2020, 11:20:35 am
I thought it was Trump who painted himself orange.

I don't doubt that.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on October 12, 2020, 11:24:48 am
Why are most of Americans presidentential candidates old and senile? 

My sisters father in law at their age drive a car into a stationary fence and didn't even realise he had clipped it. 

My mum's 69 and she is starting to become forgetful and has more health issues than ever before.





American Presidents are fronts for a machine driven by faceless people that do the 'advising'.   The machine, whether it be Democrat or Republican, needs a face with populist charisma to get its agenda into the driving seat.  Donald's problem is he actually thinks he is the supreme leader, and when he doesn't agree with the machine, he sacks someone (there have been a few that have be shown the door....).  Most of the rest have learned to say the right things.

I would suggest that many Republican politicians would be happy to see the end of Donald because he is a loose cannon, but the problem is his popularity with certain segments of the US population has meant that these same politicians get to keep their seats in Congress.

I honestly thought the COVID positive thing was a ploy to have him 'stand aside' with no political blood-letting involved....... maybe they didn't count on his ego getting in the way?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on October 12, 2020, 11:55:17 am
American Presidents are fronts for a machine driven by faceless people that do the 'advising'.   The machine, whether it be Democrat or Republican, needs a face with populist charisma to get its agenda into the driving seat.  Donald's problem is he actually thinks he is the supreme leader, and when he doesn't agree with the machine, he sacks someone (there have been a few that have be shown the door....).  Most of the rest have learned to say the right things.

I would suggest that many Republican politicians would be happy to see the end of Donald because he is a loose cannon, but the problem is his popularity with certain segments of the US population has meant that these same politicians get to keep their seats in Congress.

I honestly thought the COVID positive thing was a ploy to have him 'stand aside' with no political blood-letting involved....... maybe they didn't count on his ego getting in the way?

Don't misunderstand, I do believe that modern democracy is giving people the illusion of choice, whilst corporations and faceless people rule the nations, but I dont understand why they appoint someone who is ill equipped to provide the proper illusion of choice rather than these old guys who seem to be the physical representation of uncle sam.

What do they know about life?  These rich oligarchs who have been spoon fed their entire lives tend to run nations who are comprised of exactly the type of people they would never associate with aside from servitude.

Hell you could buy off anyone for half the money to do their advisors bidding.  I think this is the exact reason Trump is in power mind you.  The general public see him as someone that is one of them, but is too stupid to keep his mouth shut and then allows the general public to understand exactly where they sit in societal heirarchy.  Its why he appeals to the lowest denominator.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on October 12, 2020, 12:45:11 pm



[/quote]
Don't misunderstand, I do believe that modern democracy is giving people the illusion of choice, whilst corporations and faceless people rule the nations, but I dont understand why they appoint someone who is ill equipped to provide the proper illusion of choice rather than these old guys who seem to be the physical representation of uncle sam.

What do they know about life?  These rich oligarchs who have been spoon fed their entire lives tend to run nations who are comprised of exactly the type of people they would never associate with aside from servitude.

Hell you could buy off anyone for half the money to do their advisors bidding.  I think this is the exact reason Trump is in power mind you.  The general public see him as someone that is one of them, but is too stupid to keep his mouth shut and then allows the general public to understand exactly where they sit in societal heirarchy.  Its why he appeals to the lowest denominator.


I don't disagree.   As a rolled gold narcissist, I think Donald is more keen on the notoriety than the power.   Now, everyone in the world listens to him.

The challenge for the Democrats was to provide an alternative - I am sure that is why Biden is there, because he represents a safe choice, ie a well-known older white guy with no spooky agendas.  Not necessarily great in terms of a forward-thinking approach, but probably inoffensive enough to win an election.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 12, 2020, 01:54:53 pm
Yep, the name of the game is to win elections. Having done that they can get on with business,  ie government of the people  by the oligarchy for the oligarchy. Whatever happened to the true republic?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on October 12, 2020, 02:30:10 pm
And if you really want to see if there is any difference between the Republicans and the Democrats when it comes to Average Joe American, I suggest you have a look at the doco 'Inside Job' about the GFC in the US and how much both varieties of politician cow-tow to Wall St etc..... 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 12, 2020, 04:33:50 pm
And if you really want to see if there is any difference between the Republicans and the Democrats when it comes to Average Joe American, I suggest you have a look at the doco 'Inside Job' about the GFC in the US and how much both varieties of politician cow-tow to Wall St etc.....

I will look out for that one T. Big money/financial interests of course call the shots in most of the globe, main centres being the City of London and Wall St. The World Economic Forum (the Davos crowd) is one of the places where policy/strategy is made e.g. The Green New Deal.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on October 12, 2020, 10:52:41 pm
I believe that the POTUS is terrified of being prosecuted and jailed if the Democrats win.  He will do whatever he can to retain power and a cornered rat can be a nasty prospect.

I studied the US electoral system way back in year 12 and my head still hurts when I think about it.  However, the nation that invented the gerrymander and malapportionment isn’t the only one that can elect its leader with less than 50% of the popular vote.

It seems to me that, despite the rabid support the POTUS gets from some quarters, the US electorate changed its mind at the mid-term elections.  The Democrats opened up an 8% lead and nothing the POTUS has done since then will have clawed back that margin. 

You would think that with a population of 330M, the US could produce more inspiring presidential candidates and not just more ageing, privileged white males.  Whenever I see the current contenders, I’m transported back to the 1980s and Frankie goes to Hollywood’s magnificent music video “Two Tribes”.  The POTUS might have a size advantage but his cowardly persona and tiny hands could give the challenger a fighting chance.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on October 13, 2020, 07:34:31 am
I believe that the POTUS is terrified of being prosecuted and jailed if the Democrats win.  He will do whatever he can to retain power and a cornered rat can be a nasty prospect.

I studied the US electoral system way back in year 12 and my head still hurts when I think about it.  However, the nation that invented the gerrymander and malapportionment isn’t the only one that can elect its leader with less than 50% of the popular vote.

It seems to me that, despite the rabid support the POTUS gets from some quarters, the US electorate changed its mind at the mid-term elections.  The Democrats opened up an 8% lead and nothing the POTUS has done since then will have clawed back that margin. 

You would think that with a population of 330M, the US could produce more inspiring presidential candidates and not just more ageing, privileged white males.  Whenever I see the current contenders, I’m transported back to the 1980s and Frankie goes to Hollywood’s magnificent music video “Two Tribes”.  The POTUS might have a size advantage but his cowardly persona and tiny hands could give the challenger a fighting chance.

I'd suggest exactly the opposite.

Trump will piss it in. And rightly so given the drivel Sleepy Joe and Harris are putting out.

A vote for the Dems 2020 is a vote for Socialism.

And the unbridled anarchistic behaviours seen in many of America's once great cities.

Not great that Trump is the alternative but so be it.

And if anyone is worried about prosecution post election, i'd suggest Killary and Barry O. are the two that should be worried.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 13, 2020, 07:44:10 am
The grounds for prosecution of Trump would be interesting. Russiagate, the Steele dossier and the Muller inquiry led to nothing. I have read that certain parties may be looking at using Article 25 provisions of the constitution to remove the elected president,  but they could have Biden or Trump in mind, depending on who wins.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 13, 2020, 07:56:55 am
I believe that the POTUS is terrified of being prosecuted and jailed if the Democrats win.  He will do whatever he can to retain power and a cornered rat can be a nasty prospect.
Doubt this will happen, they would be setting a dangerous precedent they all have to live by.

I think the Occam's Razor argument seems more likely. The rumour is Trump is broke, and the debtors are queuing up to take a slice of him at the end of his elected term. He is a narcissistic, and the only way he can maintain his lifestyle is to stay elected. In effect he is buying time by being President!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 13, 2020, 08:17:42 am
I'd suggest exactly the opposite.

Trump will piss it in. And rightly so given the drivel Sleepy Joe and Harris are putting out.

A vote for the Dems 2020 is a vote for Socialism.

And the unbridled anarchistic behaviours seen in many of America's once great cities.

Not great that Trump is the alternative but so be it.

And if anyone is worried about prosecution post election, i'd suggest Killary and Barry O. are the two that should be worried.

Now don't go reading anything into this question, as I am genuinely curious... what exactly do you see as bad about socialism?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 13, 2020, 08:22:42 am
I don't think socialism is the goal in the US. More soviet style government with an oligarch owned politburo/technocracy ruling the people, whose votes would count for little.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 13, 2020, 08:43:39 am
Trump will piss it in. And rightly so given the drivel Sleepy Joe and Harris are putting out.

Greatly depends upon how his 2 trillion spendathon on abandoning fossil fuels and green madness goes down with the electorate.  He intends to lay down the rules to other aligned countries (including us) that we do more of the heavy lifting in regard to emissions.  China gets a pass.  He is a dangerous idiot.  If he does happen to win the Presidency, the early signs of Parkinson's will see him off in short time.     

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 13, 2020, 09:45:58 am
Chaotic, farcical, a circus.
I just get the feeling that with all the turmoil that's going on, and likely to continue post election, there are some surprises likely to impact or result. You just wonder whether, with the attention on the USA and its troubles. others may see it as an opportunity to "push a few buttons."
It wouldn't be to much of a stretch to see some headlines like these in the coming months...

"I've found it!"...Trump announces Covid vaccine on the eve of the election.

"China attacks Taiwan"

"The excitement was too much for him!"...Harris set to become President as Biden succumbs under mysterious circumstances after election victory.

"Russia invades Ukraine"

"Mission complete!"...Aliens at Roswell heading home, stating that there are no longer any signs of intelligent life in the USA.

"Christmas  2020 postponed until 2021"...Santa says the 14 day quarantine period in all countries is not practical given time limits.

"Kanye elected!" ....Taylor Swift interrupts inauguration speech stating "Kanye, I'm really happy  for you and I'm going to let you finish but Biden had one of the best campaigns of all time. Of all time!"

OK.... So the China and Russia ones may be a bit of a stretch. ;)  ;D



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2020, 09:49:20 am
I don't think socialism is the goal in the US. More soviet style government with an oligarch owned politburo/technocracy ruling the people, whose votes would count for little.
Let’s hope the voters have learned this lesson and they vote Trump out along with Moscow Mitch.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2020, 09:53:25 am
Greatly depends upon how his 2 trillion spendathon on abandoning fossil fuels and green madness goes down with the electorate.  He intends to lay down the rules to other aligned countries (including us) that we do more of the heavy lifting in regard to emissions.  China gets a pass.  He is a dangerous idiot.  If he does happen to win the Presidency, the early signs of Parkinson's will see him off in short time.     


Let’s hope the fossil fuel industry continues to receive subsidies to make it competitive with cheaper alternative power options.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 13, 2020, 10:10:09 am
Let’s hope the voters have learned this lesson and they vote Trump out along with Moscow Mitch.

That may make some of them feel better short term but the underlying problem will remain. American democracy looks to be in its death throws.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 13, 2020, 10:12:41 am
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-29/fact-check-matt-canavan-fossil-fuel-industry-subsidies/12496310
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2020, 10:31:57 am
That may make some of them feel better short term but the underlying problem will remain. American democracy looks to be in its death throws.
Agreed. Massive changes would be required and some of them aren’t even currently possible. An example of the latter is campaign finance reform which has been blocked by the Supreme Court. And it’s hard to address voter disenfrancisement, suppression, and gerrymandering when the federal elections are run concurrently with state elections and the states have the responsibility for running them. The French are now on to their 5th Republic IIRC. When they’ve realised the system is broken, they’ve changed it. But it’s much harder to change the US Constitution and the partisan divide makes it impossible.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 13, 2020, 11:14:27 am
Boris Johnson been told to forge alliances with Biden and expect a huge democrats win.. Senate will be the problem for Biden..
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 13, 2020, 11:26:40 am
Boris Johnson been told to forge alliances with Biden and expect a huge democrats win.. Senate will be the problem for Biden..

Interesting EB. I have also read that establishment figures working under Trump's instructions to expose people involved in Russiagate and other moves to oust him have been purposely dragging their chains fearing a Biden win. Maybe the Donald's days really are numbered?

BTW, be interesting to see what impact a Biden win would have on Brexit. The Dems are generally against it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 13, 2020, 11:58:07 am
Interesting EB. I have also read that establishment figures working under Trump's instructions to expose people involved in Russiagate and other moves to oust him have been purposely dragging their chains fearing a Biden win. Maybe the Donald's days really are numbered?

BTW, be interesting to see what impact a Biden win would have on Brexit. The Dems are generally against it.
Cookie, They had all better hope Trump loses or there is going to be some sort of payback, FWIW I think Biden will win but it wont the landslide expected and like I said he might have difficulty implementing his polices due to Senate problems.
I also wonder if Biden well see out his full term if he does win....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 13, 2020, 12:06:15 pm
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-29/fact-check-matt-canavan-fossil-fuel-industry-subsidies/12496310

Thank the gods for the pure objectivity of the ABC... the antithesis of FOX News.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 13, 2020, 12:09:49 pm
The US has been brainwashed over decades to fear socialism, sad thing is most of them wouldn't know what the fck it is. Hey, this is a nation that thinks universal health care is communistic at worst, socialistic at best! Poor bastards.

The Democrats are so far from socialism it's almost farcical. The Democrats are probably reasonably aligned with our small l Liberals/moderates.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2020, 12:57:55 pm
True Baggers. Hillary was probably to the right of Turnbull and Fraser.

It’s an institutional thing. The Constitution gives low-population states like Montana the same number of Senators as populous states such as New York and California. The Senate has also adopted practices which put the brakes on change. Most legislation requires 60 out of the 100 Senators to vote for it (but 50 + the VP is enough for Supreme Court confirmations and “reconciliations”). The filibuster provides an additional brake, such as when Ted Cruz read Dr Seuss books to block immigration reform. Then you have the Supreme Court which has been very conservative over the years.

That’s why the Republicans were so annoyed with Obama pushing the Affordable Care Act through despite total opposition from the GOP. They think he should only have proceeded with bipartisan support (which we now know McConnell would never have permitted). If Obama hadn’t pushed on, that legislation would have continued to be seen as socialism which the public would never accept. But once the public saw it in action, they no longer regarded it as radical. The Republicans know many of the progressive proposals won’t be unpopular once the public sees them in action. They know they have to block them so they still have the aura of radicalism.

When Biden gets in, I hope he doesn’t get sucked into allowing the Republicans to veto change in the hope he can make good on a commitment to bipartisanship. The Democrats need to reform Senate rules and pack the Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 13, 2020, 01:11:22 pm
https://youtu.be/BSA7bqBORdg
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 13, 2020, 01:14:24 pm
https://thefederalist.com/2020/10/12/joe-biden-forgets-what-office-hes-running-for-declares-senate-candidacy/
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2020, 01:27:51 pm
Didn’t you love it when Trump talked about Thigh-land instead of Thailand! I’m tipping a Freudian slip there.

But what on earth was he thinking about when he talked about Yo! Semite Park? Was he thinking about “globalists” seizing control of one of Americans’ favourite national parks?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 13, 2020, 01:39:31 pm
Comparing the personality / physical defects of those two would require a site all by itself. The Yanks should pull one out of "left" field and vote for Howie Hawkins.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2020, 02:09:43 pm
You’d think if Trump believed Biden wasn’t up to it, he wouldn’t have refused to debate him. The 1st debate put paid to that.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on October 13, 2020, 04:21:42 pm
Greatly depends upon how his 2 trillion spendathon on abandoning fossil fuels and green madness goes down with the electorate.  He intends to lay down the rules to other aligned countries (including us) that we do more of the heavy lifting in regard to emissions.  China gets a pass.  He is a dangerous idiot.  If he does happen to win the Presidency, the early signs of Parkinson's will see him off in short time.     

I’d prefer a dangerous idiot to the bloke in charge now  ???
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 13, 2020, 05:42:39 pm
I’d prefer a dangerous idiot to the bloke in charge now  ???

I would not.  He doesn't know what day it is.  Should have had a mental acuity test.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2020, 05:52:14 pm
If only Trump had debated him, he could have proved that case. So why didn’t he?

After all, debating the smartest man on Earth would be a mental acuity test, wouldn’t it?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 13, 2020, 06:00:26 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVpsTa_dnSc

If you're not already driven to despair by the, ahem.......... leader and potential leader of the free world.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 13, 2020, 06:07:32 pm
I would not.  He doesn't know what day it is.  Should have had a mental acuity test.

Plans are already in train to replace him asap should he win.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2020, 06:09:26 pm
By the way, no one’s relying on that Federalist article are they? Do your research. That rag has only managed to stay alive because a Trump donor puts money into it. It’s just part of Trump State media. I couldn’t be bothered checking, but I’d imagine it was one of the reliable sources that declared in the 2016 campaign that Hillary Clinton had sustained serious brain damage.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 13, 2020, 06:26:16 pm
I would not.  He doesn't know what day it is.  Should have had a mental acuity test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2lTIh536jY
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 13, 2020, 06:26:46 pm
I would not.  He doesn't know what day it is.  Should have had a mental acuity test.

I think I posted elsewhere that what appears to be memory lapses from Biden is in fact him going to the program designed for him many years ago to combat his chronic stutter. When he doesn't go through the process it produces a kind of anxiety which manifests as you've seen. Trump found this out in their debate, the guy doesn't have dementia and gave as good as he got. Never judge a book by its cover. In fact, Biden overcoming a chronic stutter is something of an inspiring story which has helped many.

Now that Trump is on dexamethasone he's feeling, in his own words, 'powerful', 'better than I've felt in 20 years'... well, give anyone a drug of this nature and whacko the didleo, wooo, hoooo, look at me! When he stops taking it... look out! His grasp on reality is tenuous enough but now he's feelin' great ...in la la land.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 13, 2020, 06:32:05 pm
I for one do not read the Federalist but I have noticed that most of the media is very hostile to Trump so he must be pushing it uphill I guess.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 13, 2020, 06:34:02 pm
Baggers really, Joe inspiring? Now who's in la la land??
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 13, 2020, 06:59:43 pm
Baggers really, Joe inspiring? Now who's in la la land??

I think it's the overcoming of a severe speech disability that Baggers refers to as inspiring, rather than Joe the package.

At any rate. I may be the only one who sometimes believes this ridiculous pantomime between two old rich, white, codgers is simply a diversionary tactic by the donor class. Surely the US has better candidates than these two ?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 13, 2020, 07:14:04 pm
Paul, Joe may well have worked hard to overcome a severe problem but if you research into his political and financial activities some of the stuff he has been party to is frankly quite shocking. He is not to be trusted to say the least, and no this is not an indirect endorsement of the Donald.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 13, 2020, 07:23:31 pm
Paul, Joe may well have worked hard to overcome a severe problem but if you research into his political and financial activities some of the stuff he has been party to is frankly quite shocking. He is not to be trusted to say the least, and no this is not an indirect endorsement of the Donald.

No, I'm depressed enough as it is with this dismal state of affairs. I'm happy to take your word for it, and skip the research. He is trusted by the people that own both parties to do their bidding - otherwise, just like Bernie, he would have been sent packing.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on October 13, 2020, 07:25:54 pm
I think it's the overcoming of a severe speech disability that Baggers refers to as inspiring, rather than Joe the package.

At any rate. I may be the only one who sometimes believes this ridiculous pantomime between two old rich, white, codgers is simply a diversionary tactic by the donor class. Surely the US has better candidates than these two ?

What tripe.

Even today he came out with (another) a 'I'm running for the Senate' line...

Anyone who says his cognitive decline is anything to do with his 'stutter' is kidding themselves. And some.

If the Dems were to win, Harris will be in the #1 spot by mid next year.

And she's more left than Sanders.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 13, 2020, 07:29:44 pm
Baggers really, Joe inspiring? Now who's in la la land??

That's not like you to take a comment so totally out of context, Cookie. My comment pretty clearly related to a health issue and nothing to do with anything else. I was speaking of his early battle with a debilitating stutter and how he committed himself to overcoming such an debilitating ailment - which was inspiring. It's an ailment that many in our community struggle with.

I was attempting to explain from a medical standpoint why he behaves at certain times as he does and how that is not an indicator of dementia. Very disappointed you sought to resort to a put down (la la land) Cookie when I was simply explaining a medical fact which had nothing to do with politics. In fact, you shocked me.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 13, 2020, 07:36:01 pm
What tripe.

Even today he came out with (another) a 'I'm running for the Senate' line...

Anyone who says his cognitive decline is anything to do with his 'stutter' is kidding themselves. And some.

If the Dems were to win, Harris will be in the #1 spot by mid next year.

And she's more left than Sanders.

Er, dude, I think you should read my post properly. I made no connection between alleged cognitive decline and speech impediments. As for being left of Bernie, I'm not sure about that.

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-53770654
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2020, 07:39:52 pm
If she’s further left than Bernie ... Good Heavens ... that would mean she’s like Paul Keating or Bob Hawke! How appalling!

Next thing you know, she’ll bring in a single payer system like Medicare as those Commos did (with a hat tip to Gough’s Medibank).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 13, 2020, 07:42:36 pm
No question Sanders is far left, way more so than Biden.  Sanders just scares the hell outta me.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2020, 08:10:03 pm
I can accept that knee-jerk reaction from an American but not an Australian. Malcolm Fraser would have been far too left-wing for the US. And there’s no way a Trade Unionist would have been considered for the top job. And Jacinta Ardern would be as radioactive as Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez.

It’s totally bizarre for an Australian to be having nightmares about the possibility of a single-payer healthcare system ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 13, 2020, 08:57:10 pm
I can accept that knee-jerk reaction from an American but not an Australian. Malcolm Fraser would have been far too left-wing for the US. And there’s no way a Trade Unionist would have been considered for the top job. And Jacinta Ardern would be as radioactive as Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez.

It’s totally bizarre for an Australian to be having nightmares about the possibility of a single-payer healthcare system ...

Not that you know or care, but I have an opinion.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 13, 2020, 09:03:26 pm
What did Dirty Harry say about opinions?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on October 13, 2020, 10:43:56 pm
What tripe.

Even today he came out with (another) a 'I'm running for the Senate' line...

Anyone who says his cognitive decline is anything to do with his 'stutter' is kidding themselves. And some.

If the Dems were to win, Harris will be in the #1 spot by mid next year.

And she's more left than Sanders.

Well, that's cause for hope!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 13, 2020, 11:00:30 pm
That's not like you to take a comment so totally out of context, Cookie. My comment pretty clearly related to a health issue and nothing to do with anything else. I was speaking of his early battle with a debilitating stutter and how he committed himself to overcoming such an debilitating ailment - which was inspiring. It's an ailment that many in our community struggle with.

I was attempting to explain from a medical standpoint why he behaves at certain times as he does and how that is not an indicator of dementia. Very disappointed you sought to resort to a put down (la la land) Cookie when I was simply explaining a medical fact which had nothing to do with politics. In fact, you shocked me.

Hey Baggers,  apologies if you are personally offended but I did not intend to do that. I think la la land was an expression you yourself used so I didn't dream you would take it as a put down, which it was not meant as. The main purpose of my post was to make it clear that I don't agree with any moral preening of Joe despite his past speech issues and his struggle to overcome them, which I acknowledge. I simply don't rate or respect the man.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 14, 2020, 07:15:21 am
Given my disillusionment with state and fed politics here, I don't follow US politics at all (other than the rubbish images splattered over the news services every night). I don't even follow US sport as I find it abhorrently stupid and boring. So correct me if I am wrong, but is the general consensus essentially that there are two candidates running for President of the US that basically you wouldn't feed?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 14, 2020, 07:41:11 am
Given my disillusionment with state and fed politics here, I don't follow US politics at all (other than the rubbish images splattered over the news services every night). I don't even follow US sport as I find it abhorrently stupid and boring. So correct me if I am wrong, but is the general consensus essentially that there are two candidates running for President of the US that basically you wouldn't feed?

Let's put it this way. Compared to Trump and Biden... Morrison and Albanese are Lincoln and Kennedy.. No-one should complain about the standard of our politicians compared to the US.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 14, 2020, 07:49:45 am
Don't think so GTC.  It's a battle on disparate ideological grounds running far deeper than the two personalities.  The parties genuinely despise each other, far more so than in any other election period I can recall.  One of them will end up presiding over a very fractured society.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 14, 2020, 08:25:39 am
Don't think so GTC.  It's a battle on disparate ideological grounds running far deeper than the two personalities.............................

Most scholarship I've read and seen positions them as two adjoining shades of grey in a paint catalogue. There's just enough difference to notice a difference, but the overall chromatic values are basically the same. Sounds a little like Red Peril fear mongering to me.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on October 14, 2020, 09:20:40 am
Most scholarship I've read and seen positions them as two adjoining shades of grey in a paint catalogue. There's just enough difference to notice a difference, but the overall chromatic values are basically the same. Sounds a little like Red Peril fear mongering to me.

That’s my understanding too Paul; there’s an awful lot of common ground in the middle and elected representatives often vote across party lines.  Of course, the emergence of the Tea Party this century has created a more extreme far right element in the Republican movement.

However, there is an element of long-standing animosity and reference to mid-19th century policies and actions is part of the political discourse.

Just to illustrate the point about blurred party lines, I understand that there is a “Republicans for Biden” group.  Of course, an anti-Trump movement within the Republican Party has been in existence since he put his hand up.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on October 14, 2020, 09:27:23 am

Let's put it this way. Compared to Trump and Biden... Morrison and Albanese are Lincoln and Kennedy.. No-one should complain about the standard of our politicians compared to the US.

Better than crap can still be crap is all ill say.

To make my point hit home.

Darcy Lang was better for us than Billie Smedts was.

I still dont want another player from Geelong.  They have given us nothing but grief since Hickmott.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on October 14, 2020, 09:28:38 am
If she’s further left than Bernie ... Good Heavens ... that would mean she’s like Paul Keating or Bob Hawke! How appalling!

Next thing you know, she’ll bring in a single payer system like Medicare as those Commos did (with a hat tip to Gough’s Medibank).

Good to see you haven't changed your spots.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 14, 2020, 09:33:29 am
There may be that closeness in certain sections of both parties at the political level...
What needs to be factored in is that the Trump years have changed the dynamics in many respects.
Trump is almost a third party in his own right and has captured a lot of the hearts and minds of many sections of the Republican party and maybe even some who would  normally vote Democrat.
He's an entity that bears the title  Republican but is actually alien to many sections of that party.
That's where the fraction occurs.
And that's the problem for any post -Trump 'healer.'
There is a real hatred and divide.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 14, 2020, 09:34:52 am
I think their differences are mainly in the commercial / corporate world, not so much the social world although Trump is clearly more narcissistic.

Which doesn't mean Biden isn't narcissistic, before the Trump boosters go on the attack!

However, in terms of enforcing some corporate and commercial social responsibilities they are clearly different. Trump is fundamentally happy to allow the commercial world to burn society in an attempt to make a profit as long as they make a profit, if they don't succeed he'll throw them to the wolves retrospectively claiming they were irresponsible, but that is long after the social and natural damage is done! For those that succeed, Trump will of course claim to be the primary cause/trigger!

Biden isn't prepared to allow the corporate greed to burn society in the attempt to make a profit, he is much keener on a slower more responsible approach to capitalism, it's a key difference!

Of course that makes Biden enemy No.1 amongst the megalomaniacs and corporate psychopaths, they want to make hay before there is no longer sunlight to make it by!

I put Murdoch in this category, he seems hell bent on making as much profit as quickly as possible and at any cost, before he shuffles off! He's almost moving towards the "Head in the Jar" category of Bond type villains!

(https://fiverr-res.cloudinary.com/images/t_main1,q_auto,f_auto,q_auto,f_auto/gigs/128563547/original/56fbc28df91c922fab3c61c5ce08e7459a1e0804/draw-your-head-in-a-futurama-jar.png)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 14, 2020, 09:58:09 am
Which doesn't mean Biden isn't narcissistic, before the Trump boosters go on the attack!

Just as an aside...
One of the strange things about this thread is that you can write a dozen lines of criticism of one candidate and include one negative post about their opponent and it's that one negative aspect that will be zeroed in on, depending on the reader's political bent.
It's a subject that 'triggers' people.
The thing is that folks minds are pretty well made up, set in stone and no opinions are changing.

It's "Biden", "Trump" or "It's all going to hell anyway whoever wins"


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 14, 2020, 09:58:30 am
Good to see you haven't changed your spots.
As they say, polka dots are the new stripes.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 14, 2020, 10:11:02 am
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/

Decide for yourselves how much difference there is. Biden could easily be a moderate republican.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 14, 2020, 10:35:33 am
LP, I wouldn’t necessarily go too far down the “Biden stands against corporate greed” line. I’d put him around John Howard on the Australian political spectrum. It’s just that Trump’s at the Pauline Hanson/Mark Latham extreme that makes Biden look left-wing.

Remember that Biden was a Senator from Delaware. Delaware just happens to be like the Lichtenstein of US States. It has lax corporate laws so a stack of corporations with no natural link to Delaware domicile there. Any Senator from Delaware has to keep them happy, so in a sense you can’t blame him from doing so (though he could have moved to another State to avoid that influence). Elizabeth Warren and Biden squared off over bankruptcy laws back in the early 2000s. There were 2 forms of bankruptcy. Chapter 7 bankruptcy that allowed people to do something like corporate liquidation: sell off non-protected assets, distribute them to creditors and extinguish the remaining debts. Chapter 13 bankruptcy is more like a payment plan in which the debt continues until it’s paid. The Banks and credit card companies of course didn’t like the Chapter 7 bankruptcies and Biden as lead Democrat on the Judiciary Committee pushed legislation to limit access to that form of bankruptcy. Warren and Biden have been frosty since.

Perhaps Biden is now free of that sort of corporate influence. Sure as hell, he won’t run for the Senate in Delaware no matter what happens. Perhaps he can make amends by giving Warren a Cabinet position or role in an agency from which she can promote consumer protection. But he ain’t an enemy of capitalism.

He has some serious credits in the bank when it comes to race relations as he was an enthusiastic underling to Obama. I’d imagine a closet racist would have kept his distance from Obama as Vice-Presidents can easily do but he was keen to be of service. He was also humanised by his son Beau’s death from brain cancer: he was obviously shattered by it on top of the death of his 1st wife and daughter in a car crash and it has made him a much more empathetic man than Trump could very be. But don’t expect him to be a democratic socialist.

I’d compare Harris to Julia Gillard on the Australian political spectrum.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 14, 2020, 10:43:44 am
Great point Lods.

I'm married to an American from a far left democrat aligned state.  Have been for many years.  She certainly liked Obama and has totally shifted her position (no influence at all from me) to Trump, but only after seeing the way our political system works with heavy political back biting and her knowing the state of America is in needing much of the same analysis.  We're way better than the U.S. in that we'll collectively go after anybody from either side when called for.  They don't and the simmering volcano lies not far beneath the surface.  Been there many times and across many states.  Strange place at times.   
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 14, 2020, 11:02:55 am
@ Capcom

Interesting post Cap. I was reading about the Dems a few days ago and of the factions in play within the party. According to the writer there are loosely three major factions, the Obamas who are currently dominant, the Clintons whose star has recently fallen somewhat and George Soros. Joe is the Obamas man and probably just a place holder. Interestingly, according to the writer,  Hillary looked upon Obama as a placeholder for her but he eventually completely outmanoeuvered her, to the point where she may being set up to take the fall for Russiagate crimes, should they ever  get pursued. That won't happen of course if Biden wins.Be interested in your comments.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 14, 2020, 11:06:16 am
LP, I wouldn’t necessarily go too far down the “Biden stands against corporate greed” line.
But I didn't write that, I wrote he wasn't prepared to let corporate greed burn society.

As you point out,

He has some serious credits in the bank when it comes to race relations as he was an enthusiastic underling to Obama. I’d imagine a closet racist would have kept his distance from Obama as Vice-Presidents can easily do but he was keen to be of service. He was also humanised by his son Beau’s death from brain cancer: he was obviously shattered by it on top of the death of his 1st wife and daughter in a car crash and it has made him a much more empathetic man than Trump could very be. But don’t expect him to be a democratic socialist.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 14, 2020, 11:29:24 am
@ Capcom

Interesting post Cap. I was reading about the Dems a few days ago and of the factions in play within the party. According to the writer there are loosely three major factions, the Obamas who are currently dominant, the Clintons whose star has recently fallen somewhat and George Soros. Joe is the Obamas man and probably just a place holder. Interestingly, according to the writer,  Hillary looked upon Obama as a placeholder for her but he eventually completely outmanoeuvered her, to the point where she may being set up to take the fall for Russiagate crimes, should they ever  get pursued. That won't happen of course if Biden wins.Be interested in your comments.
I think it's too easy to go a step too far in all this analysis, like the Russiagate conspiracies that want a domestic actor as a facilitator.

A nefarious 3rd party does not need domestic assistance, they act in ways that serve their own purpose anyway. Not to say that some domestic source can't align themselves or feed off those nefarious actions. Both sides do this equally, the joke is claiming one isn't!

I listened to a political and economic analysis from some students a while back, the claim was Trump's anti-China huff and puff is contradicted by his actions, in that domestically he has made himself look to the US public like the Gold Star Sheriff by arresting some bit playing stooge like Huawei, but globally this is a drop in the ocean when you look at food, oil, minerals, etc., etc.. Overall he's actually assisting China in the long term with many of his policies that will hurt the people who vote for him while lining the pockets of his billionaire associates with gold.

As an aside banning the likes of Huawei actually assists Russia, it was something the Russian's had already been exposed as actively pursuing behind the scenes because basically Russia is broke and cannot afford to keep up the countries infrastructure in the face of the 5G technology race. Not Russia specifically against Huawei, but to slow the growing technology gap in general. Russia needs progress in China, India and the USA to be slowed so it has a chance to catch up.

Ironically, while watching the F1 in Sochi I was reminded of this by some spurious comments made by the commentators about the quality of local technologies and media services, visiting the Olympic town was like visiting the 70s or 80s. A 2020 skin on 1980s bones. Keep in mind, Sochi was the bleeding edge of Russian progress just a handful of years back!

Think also about the Huawei ban locally, in light of the position of some involved in that recent decision in relation to early opposition or support for technologies such as the NBN a decade ago. Some see this technology race ideologically as a waste of money, the return does not justify the cost, but perhaps some see the cost and think we cannot afford to race!

When you combine these observations it's clear domestically one US person cannot act in favour of both, yet there are real world actions and events in play. The only sensible explanation is that there are a bunch of disparate actors combining to deliver these outcomes in a chaotic fashion. If you look at the events with any pre-existing political or social bent you will find a perspective that reinforces your pre-existing bias. It's very easy to cherrypick and come to a conclusion that only fits a small part of the observed behaviour.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 14, 2020, 12:28:32 pm
Trump’s problems with China started with his reflexive rejection of the TPP. IMO, the TPP was a geopolitical rather than an economic pact. If it had come to fruition, it would have brought Asian and Pacific countries into the US sphere and stymied China’s attempts to expand its influence. The hope had been that China would then negotiate to gain access to that market.

China has expanded its Belt and Road program into the pacific and has managed to persuade Solomon Islands and Kiribati to cut diplomatic ties with Taiwan. This was a diplomatic black eye for Taiwan even if those islands were hardly big trading partners.

Trump has never cared for multilateral partnerships, so he was reduced to starting a trade war whose costs dwarfed any supposed losses that the US would have experienced under the TPP. He found that telling other countries to keep away from China without offering them incentives didn’t achieve much.

Trump was lucky, though, that President Xi showed he’s as belligerent as Trump which has limited the benefit China has accrued. Traditionally, China has preferred to use soft power but Xi has preferred to throw his weight around. His attempts at dominating the South China Sea have alarmed countries with competing claims such as Vietnam and the Phillipines, the border skirmishes with India have forced the Indians closer to the US, the trade bans against Australia haven’t done it any favours, and the crackdown in Hong Kong has limited the political inroads it could make in Asia and the Pacific.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 14, 2020, 01:31:37 pm
@ Capcom

Interesting post Cap. I was reading about the Dems a few days ago and of the factions in play within the party. According to the writer there are loosely three major factions, the Obamas who are currently dominant, the Clintons whose star has recently fallen somewhat and George Soros. Joe is the Obamas man and probably just a place holder. Interestingly, according to the writer,  Hillary looked upon Obama as a placeholder for her but he eventually completely outmanoeuvered her, to the point where she may being set up to take the fall for Russiagate crimes, should they ever  get pursued. That won't happen of course if Biden wins.Be interested in your comments.

@ Cookie2

On the surface, not a great deal I'd disagree with but if I let you what the better half thinks (and knows with her daily interactions with folks at home over many years) about Hilary and the Clinton foundation and their history, it'd scare most.  

I'd not believe George Soros is out of the picture just yet either.  There are skeletons in closets right throughout both parties.  

I wanted to emigrate there and the third degree they put me through with no criminal record whatsoever, health clearances (and married to a woman who has always held an American passport) was unimaginable ... thousands of emails.  Literally.

I'm glad I never went.  So is the good wife :))  Thanks mate
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 14, 2020, 02:10:23 pm
@ Cookie2

On the surface, not a great deal I'd disagree with but if I let you what the better half thinks (and knows with her daily interactions with folks at home over many years) about Hilary and the Clinton foundation and their history, it'd scare most.  

I'd not believe George Soros is out of the picture just yet either.  There are skeletons in closets right throughout both parties.  

I wanted to emigrate there and the third degree they put me through with no criminal record whatsoever, health clearances (and married to a woman who has always held an American passport) was unimaginable ... thousands of emails.  Literally.

I'm glad I never went.  So is the good wife :))  Thanks mate

Thanks Cap. Yes I think you and your wife made the right choice for sure. The future there looks very uncertain at the moment.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 14, 2020, 02:26:24 pm
Russiagate :) I needed a good laugh.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 14, 2020, 02:58:51 pm

I'm glad I never went.  So is the good wife :))  Thanks mate
And here endeth the lesson.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 14, 2020, 03:21:03 pm
And here endeth the lesson.

Not quite GTC ... she's crazy mad about Carlton and now thinks the American NFL is rubbish.

She's really good on cricket as well.   I did influence her in some things :)) 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on October 14, 2020, 10:03:36 pm
Not quite GTC ... she's crazy mad about Carlton and now thinks the American NFL is rubbish.

She's really good on cricket as well.   I did influence her in some things :)) 
Crazy About Carlton - Agreed, Tick
Thinks NFL is rubbish - Agreed, Tick
She's really good on Cricket - Agreed, Tick.
What a woman, maybe your the problem Cap :D  :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 14, 2020, 11:19:43 pm
Crazy About Carlton - Agreed, Tick
Thinks NFL is rubbish - Agreed, Tick
She's really good on Cricket - Agreed, Tick.
What a woman, maybe your the problem Cap :D  :D

She's completely hooked GTC.  And always asking me about the really finer points of both games.

Hates the Poms too. :)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on October 15, 2020, 07:22:00 am
Doubt this will happen, they would be setting a dangerous precedent they all have to live by.

I think the Occam's Razor argument seems more likely. The rumour is Trump is broke, and the debtors are queuing up to take a slice of him at the end of his elected term. He is a narcissistic, and the only way he can maintain his lifestyle is to stay elected. In effect he is buying time by being President!

The POTUS faces a criminal investigation by a New York City prosecutor who is seeking his financial records and tax returns.

The Supreme Court nominee was questioned on the POTUS’s claim to have the absolute power to pardon himself and declined to give a definitive answer.

Of course, the point is moot if he is no longer the POTUS.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 09:11:06 am
In the interests of balance you may find it interesting to consider some of the revelations now coming out from the FBI on the activities of Joe and his son Hunter in the Ukraine when Joe was Obama's VP. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 09:36:36 am
You mean this one?

Twitter Blocks New York Post Article Linked To Russian Disinformation Campaign (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/twitter-blocks-new-york-post-article_n_5f874b83c5b6e9e76fb9c04d), HuffPost.

Quote
Twitter on Wednesday took the highly unusual step of blocking links to a thinly sourced New York Post article that appears to have connections to a Russian disinformation campaign targeting Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden and his son Hunter.

A Twitter spokesperson told HuffPost that the article violated the company’s Hacked Materials Policy, noting in particular an absence of information on the origins of the materials that formed the basis of the Post’s reporting.

By the way, don’t make the mistake of assuming the New York Post must be reputable as it seems to be a conflation of the New York Times and Washington Post. It’s a right-wing tabloid like the UK’s Sun.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 09:48:50 am
Scramble, scramble, scamble......
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 09:55:44 am
True. All the President’s Men have been scrambling to find something, anything on Biden. And the most they can find is Russian disinformation. If it hadn’t been for the Ukraine impeachment, Rudy Guiliani, Lev Parnas etc this might have had some impact but it’s no better than a Pravda story.

By the way, the hit job, I mean investigation, into “ObamaGate” came up empty. Apparently, there was nothing remotely unseemly in the unmasking ordered by the previous administration. Barr tried to spin it by saying the report wouldn’t be ready for release until after the election and like clockwork Trump claimed this was a disgrace and very unfair to him. But the abrupt resignation of the prosecutor handling the case probably suggests he didn’t want to follow Barr’s orders regarding rewriting his report.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 10:02:46 am
Don't think so mate but I guess I just wait and see how this plays out when more comes  to light. I understand there's some pretty hard incriminating evidence which is in the possession of the FBI.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 15, 2020, 10:05:05 am
By the way, don’t make the mistake of assuming the New York Post must be reputable as it seems to be a conflation of the New York Times and Washington Post. It’s a right-wing tabloid like the UK’s Sun.
The media entities are in business to make a profit, they do whatever they like and whatever it takes to line their own pockets.

Everyday Joes think the reporters are freewill, writing and publishing what they like, what they have discovered, cleaned up a little here and there by an editor, it's so far from the truth it's a joke. In the modern world of mass media, built on the foundations of Murdoch's empire, the reporters are not much more than syndicated bloggers, some say a million monkeys tapping away at keyboards, writing out a cladding around a framework they have already been told! Many of the stories you'll find semi-duplicated over and over again, usually the same source of a skeleton that gets reupholstered by a local blogger to make it relevant in various countries and cities. It's pathetic journalism, the journalist have become jelly boned pawns.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 10:19:29 am
The NY Post is owned by Rupert Murdoch. Says it all really. After the National Enquirer lost its credibility :lol: who you gonna call? Call Rupert!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 10:23:04 am
Don't think so mate but I guess I just wait and see how this plays out when more comes  to light. I understand there's some pretty hard incriminating evidence which is in the possession of the FBI.
I imagine it’s sitting alongside the proof of the Pizzagate conspiracy and Seth Rich’s murder  :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 10:28:50 am
I imagine it’s sitting alongside the proof of the Pizzagate conspiracy and Seth Rich’s murder  :D

You hope?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Micky0 on October 15, 2020, 10:29:09 am
In the interests of balance you may find it interesting to consider some of the revelations now coming out from the FBI on the activities of Joe and his son Hunter in the Ukraine when Joe was Obama's VP. 
Come on mate, Geezus Christ. Are you really believing this crap?? This is the MO they used against Hillary before the election, and fortunately for them she was widely disliked beforehand so people just decided to accept the crap that was fed to them.

The NYPOST is a Murdoch paper - you know that piece of crap that kills all independent media wherever his disgusting claws can get into! 
Farking hell, Rudy has absolutely ZERO credibility as well!

What is wrong with people? Are you so gullible to believe there’s no agenda within Rupert owner media? It’s actually depressing how much people don’t think for themselves now, just see an inflammatory headline and go with it.

Please if you haven’t already, sign Rudds petition for a royal commission into media in this country - democracy relies on it!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 10:34:57 am
Come on mate, Geezus Christ. Are you really believing this crap?? This is the MO they used against Hillary before the election, and fortunately for them she was widely disliked beforehand so people just decided to accept the crap that was fed to them.

The NYPOST is a Murdoch paper - you know that piece of crap that kills all independent media wherever his disgusting claws can get into! 
Farking hell, Rudy has absolutely ZERO credibility as well!

What is wrong with people? Are you so gullible to believe there’s no agenda within Rupert owner media? It’s actually depressing how much people don’t think for themselves now, just see an inflammatory headline and go with it.

Please if you haven’t already, sign Rudds petition for a royal commission into media in this country - democracy relies on it!

I didn't say I believed it, I said I'll wait and see how things play out.
And if your post is your position, why aren't you questioning what's being said about #orangemanbad?? Can you believe anything in the media??
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 10:36:56 am
Actually, I have a newfound respect for William Barr. I was thinking he was just an unprincipled henchman. But Cookie’s inside info suggests he has decided to keep election-altering evidence under wraps. I guess he could be delaying its release but that doesn’t make sense when early voting is underway at record levels. There’s less than 3 weeks to the election, so it wouldn’t make sense.

Or would it? I’m sure QAnon have a theory for that.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 15, 2020, 10:38:51 am
Well, regardless of the outcome, I think I should nominate the Whole of the USA for the 2021 Darwin Awards!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 10:50:02 am
And if your post is your position, why aren't you questioning what's being said about #orangemanbad?? Can you believe anything in the media??
That’s like Trump’s strategy distilled into 2 lines. FAKE NEWS, hoaxes, alternative facts, no such thing as truth, you can’t believe your own eyes - only trust what Trump tells you.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 10:53:18 am
Actually, I have a newfound respect for William Barr. I was thinking he was just an unprincipled henchman. But Cookie’s inside info suggests he has decided to keep election-altering evidence under wraps. I guess he could be delaying its release but that doesn’t make sense when early voting is underway at record levels. There’s less than 3 weeks to the election, so it wouldn’t make sense.

Or would it? I’m sure QAnon have a theory for that.

Errr - that was not "inside info" - stop trying to make stuff up please.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 10:55:27 am
That’s like Trump’s strategy distilled into 2 lines. FAKE NEWS, hoaxes, alternative facts, no such thing as truth, you can’t believe your own eyes - only trust what Trump tells you.

Or don't trust what Trump says, only believe what his enemies say, whoever they may may be??
Same thing?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 11:04:09 am
Or maybe assess the source of info critically and look for corroboration. Trying to say a political hatchet job by a right wing tabloid discredits all journalism is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 11:06:14 am
Errr - that was not "inside info" - stop trying to make stuff up please.
Do you object to “inside” or “info”? Would inside fabrication be better?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 11:16:27 am
Do you object to “inside” or “info”? Would inside fabrication be better?

I object to deliberately scurrilous and misleading terms since you've asked. Are you accusing me of making stuff up??
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 15, 2020, 11:18:19 am
There is almost nothing you can read, watch or listen to that isn't tainted, in the worst possible way.

It's human nature to look for the golden bullet of truth, but you won't find it in any single source, statement or clip!

The problem for the USA is the Trump has realised the public are basically lazy like himself, they look no further than the loudest most populist voice, and either choose to believe or disbelieve it, but they rarely if ever look much deeper. Even when they do decide to make a half-baked effort in the current social media environment they'll find an almost equally loud equally tainted social media voice. Secondly, they all have agendas, some want health, some want wealth, some want freedom, so delivers each of them a little carrot to cling on to, delivering nothing of the sort but an empty promise and almost zero action other than a worthless signature held up to a camera that many believe actually means something. They believe this despite months and months, maybe years now, of accumulated clear evidence that those decrees are worthless and empty.

btw., This works for and applies to both sides of politics, which means there is some irony in the general public calling for the media giants to be brought to heal!

Of course, until people get out of the office, out of the study, off the couch and out into society, they find little or no truth. But Trump and other politicians, News Ltd, CBC, NBN, Fox, Disney, Apple, Google, Facebook, etc., etc., do not need to fear this, it's never going to happen.

But if they did, they find very little has changed, the people looking for jobs are still looking for jobs, the people struggling still struggle, the cracked roads and pavements are still cracked. The devices and technologies are still rubbish, the car and truck emissions are still the same, and everybody grows fatter and less healthy on the couch eating home delivered "health foods" while yelling at all those around them about what is wrong with the world!

Excuse me, excuse me,.............. man with big balls coming through!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 11:20:48 am
Or maybe assess the source of info critically and look for corroboration. Trying to say a political hatchet job by a right wing tabloid discredits all journalism is ridiculous.

good advice for all of us mate.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 11:25:45 am
I object to deliberately scurrilous and misleading terms since you've asked. Are you accusing me of making stuff up??
No, I’m saying you have repeated made-up stuff. I assumed you did so on the basis of some source material which you chose not to reveal.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 11:33:55 am
No, I’m saying you have repeated made-up stuff. I assumed you did so on the basis of some source material which you chose not to reveal.
You see you have already decided it's made up presumably because it doesn't fit your preferred narrative. I have said more than once I do not necessarily believe it but will wait and see how it pans out. I have no preferred position on who wins the election, Biden or Trump - well maybe neither of them, but I do get very tired of the constant one way vilification and bile  we are being exposed to so I try to put up things that may promote a more balanced picture of what is actually going on. Maybe I should just let the professional slaggers just go for it?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 11:44:32 am
You must have slept through Trump’s impeachment. This is exactly the stuff Trump was trying to extort from Ukraine with Rudy Guiliani his front man. Rudy was about to meet Lev and Parnas overseas when they were arrested by the FBI. Another of his contacts has been revealed by Homeland Security as a Russian spy.

Most people when they get caught red handed with their hand in the cookie jar will slink away. But it’s Trump’s MO to say he wasn’t taking a cookie - the cookie was in his hand well before his hand went inside the cookie jar and the cookie belongs to him. And you can’t believe your eyes that his hand was in the cookie jar anyway.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 15, 2020, 11:53:48 am
The USA seems to love a well done crooked deal even more than China, no wonder they are at loggerheads, they are so much alike!

Kids love Superman, all the voting adults think Lex Luther is the man!

Baddies become so popular they re-paint them as goodies. The Terminator is now a goody, akin to repainting Hitler as the saviour of the free world.

Redemption, reconciliation, forgiveness then external glory! Trump, the man with the red right hand, he'll love you, yeah! Is The Boyz Homelander a parody of Trump, jerking his way to fame over the Statue of Liberty, claiming to save the world while wishing they were all dead!

There was a recent poll in the USA, the bulk of respondents though Tarantino's recent offering of "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood" was a faithful representation of the events surrounding The Mason Family!

God save America, FFS sake I hope God does because they won't!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 12:03:14 pm
No I did not sleep through it, hardly possible with coverage it got. But you seem to be only concerned with him and not worried that his potential successor and his son may well also have been on that particular gravy train. This is not exactly new, been around since well before Trump took office. Imo it bears further investigation.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 01:22:51 pm
There’s another echo of the impeachment: “investigation”. Remember, Trump didn’t need Ukraine to actually prosecute Biden or his son or even do the slightest investigation. All he wanted was that the President of Ukraine announce an investigation into corruption that would continue until the election. This is the lite version of that: a supposed FBI investigation which has unearthed devastating proof of corruption which for some reason won’t be revealed so the right wing media can concoct conspiracy theories about it. Gimme a break ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 01:42:54 pm
Biden was Obama's man in Ukraine following the removal of Yanukovic and in fact had dealings with him before things went sour. Even chaired Ukraine government cabinet meetings there - some even go as far as to say he was the de facto president of Ukraine during that time. Hunter Biden was appointed to the board of Burisma which is owned by oligarch Mykota Zlochevski at a very nice monthly salary for doing not much. Representatives of Burisma had meetings with Joe organised by his son. Billions of dollars of western government grants and aid go into Ukraine, many never to see the light of day there but much resurfaces back in the good old USA. Connect the dots.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 01:49:44 pm
And yet these dots didn’t appear through the witnesses at the impeachment heraring (and yes, the Republicans had equal time to question them). Made up dots don’t need to be connected. Just join the real dots. And QAnon isn’t a real person, by the way.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 01:55:17 pm
And yet these dots didn’t appear through the witnesses at the impeachment heraring (and yes, the Republicans had equal time to question them). Made up dots don’t need to be connected. Just join the real dots. And QAnon isn’t a real person, by the way.

I'll leave Qanon to you. Do you think the Republicans would have wanted to raise those skeletons if some of their own were also benefiting?  Big time corruption does not necessarily run along party lines. Aren't you even a teeny weeny bit suspicious of what went on there?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 02:06:15 pm
No doubt there’ll be plenty of time for that to be comprehensively assessed after the election if fact-finding is really the aim. Seems a bit of a coincidence that half-ar$ed allegations are made less than 3 weeks before the election.

And it’s typical Trump Chutzpah that he tries to attack his opponents for self-dealing when he has taken it to unprecedented levels. He better hope Pence will agree to pardon the Trump clan before Biden takes over.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on October 15, 2020, 02:15:36 pm

I'll leave Qanon to you. Do you think the Republicans would have wanted to raise those skeletons if some of their own were also benefiting?  Big time corruption does not necessarily run along party lines. Aren't you even a teeny weeny bit suspicious of what went on there?

If the Republicans thought that calling Biden a Martian would win them the election, they would produce NASA documents proving there was life there......

It's not about which side has dirty laundry - let's face it, they both have.... it's about publicising (not proving) that the other guy's laundry is dirtier....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 02:33:38 pm
And there you have the Trump strategy again: balance requires blame to be spread around equally. Sure Trump is dishonest and corrupt, but Biden has to be declared equally dishonest and corrupt. To do otherwise would be so unfair to poor Donald!

EDIT: By the way, Tonyo, this post was a reply to Cookie's post that now follows mine. How Cookie's post happened to switch places with this one I do not know.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 02:58:53 pm
If the Republicans thought that calling Biden a Martian would win them the election, they would produce NASA documents proving there was life there......

It's not about which side has dirty laundry - let's face it, they both have.... it's about publicising (not proving) that the other guy's laundry is dirtier....

You are right, both sides equally capable of dishing it out but as I  said, no side would do anything that could come back on them. I am awaiting the next installments with interest.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 03:00:06 pm
And there you have the Trump strategy again: balance requires blame to be spread around equally. Sure Trump is dishonest and corrupt, but Biden has to be declared equally dishonest and corrupt. To do otherwise would be so unfair to poor Donald!

Especially if it turns out to be true?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 03:02:23 pm
Then you wait for proof. Just in case it turns out not to be true.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 03:10:35 pm
Mav maybe you should consider taking some of your own advice mate. I understand that this may well be an inconvenient truth for you and you seem to be getting angry. I  think we have reached the point of tit for tat so let's now see how events actually pan out.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 03:21:29 pm
Can't say I'm angry. That's the great thing about debating the US election on an Australian football site. We aren't going to influence the result any more than we'll influence the result of a footy game we discuss. If this were a site of influence and I had a desire to influence those who read the site, I would have quickly dismissed the report and moved on to avoid giving the story oxygen. That's why Trump and GOP are so angry at Facebook & Twitter: they've shut the story down and won't give it oxygen.

Strange you'd say to me it's tit-for-tat so we should just wait to see what happens. Seems like a case of 'Do what I say, not what I do' given that you could have just waited to see what happened rather than posting that!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on October 15, 2020, 03:22:09 pm
No I did not sleep through it, hardly possible with coverage it got. But you seem to be only concerned with him and not worried that his potential successor and his son may well also have been on that particular gravy train. This is not exactly new, been around since well before Trump took office. Imo it bears further investigation.

It’s worth having a look at the report into the Bidens released by Republican-led Senate committees late last month.  While the release of the report was clearly politically motivated, the committees were unable to find evidence of wrong-doing by Joe Biden but concluded that Hunter’s role in the Ukraine represented a potential conflict of interest for the Obama administration (one that was acknowledged and dealt with).

The report didn’t support the POTUS’s claims about Biden.




Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 03:25:21 pm
Can't say I'm angry. That's the great thing about debating the US election on an Australian football site. We aren't going to influence the result any more than we'll influence the result of a footy game we discuss. If this were a site of influence and I had a desire to influence those who read the site, I would have quickly dismissed the report and moved on to avoid giving the story oxygen. That's why Trump and GOP are so angry at Facebook & Twitter: they've shut the story down and won't give it oxygen.

Strange you'd say to me it's tit-for-tat so we should just wait to see what happens. Seems like a case of 'Do what I say, not what I do' given that you could have just waited to see what happened rather than posting that!

Not really, this is a discussion forum where we often discuss possibilities before the final outcome is known. You yourself show incredible creativity in these matters. Anyway, enjoy the rest of your day.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 03:27:17 pm
It’s worth having a look at the report into the Bidens released by Republican-led Senate committees late last month.  While the release of the report was clearly politically motivated, the committees were unable to find evidence of wrong-doing by Joe Biden but concluded that Hunter’s role in the Ukraine represented a potential conflict of interest for the Obama administration (one that was acknowledged and dealt with).

The report didn’t support the POTUS’s claims about Biden.

Sure, but new evidence has apparently surfaced since then which could change all of that - that's what prompted this discussion.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 03:50:18 pm
The story suggests the laptop was seized in December 2019 and a copy of a hard drive was obtained by Guiliani soon after that. And yet it’s new evidence which surfaced after the report was released last month. Hmmm ... something’s fishy with that timeline.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 15, 2020, 04:04:35 pm
If the Republicans thought that calling Biden a Martian would win them the election, they would produce NASA documents proving there was life there......

It's not about which side has dirty laundry - let's face it, they both have.... it's about publicising (not proving) that the other guy's laundry is dirtier....
Yes, no facts required in the USA, just claim whatever you like!

The US media keep telling us they are the A-Grade Gold Standard of democracy and freedom of the press, but it seems they have confused freedom of the press with freedom of the creative arts, free to make stuff up! ;D

Political parties cannot make use of this stuff without the media giving them oxygen!

The media report that the politicians are being played by nefarious characters, but it is really the media that is being played!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 04:08:46 pm
I wouldn’t say media. The right wing echo chamber is involved but the media is treating it sceptically.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on October 15, 2020, 04:15:12 pm
I wouldn’t say media. The right wing echo chamber is involved but the media is treating it sceptically.

The press are known as a MEDIUM because they are never rare, and nor are they well done......
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 15, 2020, 04:15:38 pm
I wouldn’t say media. The right wing echo chamber is involved but the media is treating it sceptically.
Media is a broad term, which includes not just mainstream but social media, the likes of FB, Google, Yahoo, Youtube, Reddit, etc., etc..

The state actors play them like a fiddle!

If you are interested, utilities like the Wayback Machine and Internet Archive allow people to trace a lot of these conspiracies back to the root cause. It's not as hard as people think to find the source, just that it is not in the skill set of Joe Average. Joe looks at the scope of the problem and thinks "How could anybody know", the actual crime is that mainstream media and social media know exactly and yet choose profit over truth. It is a sick system!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on October 15, 2020, 04:45:55 pm
Sure, but new evidence has apparently surfaced since then which could change all of that - that's what prompted this discussion.

Hasn’t the so-called new evidence had been dismissed as a Newscorpse fabrication?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 15, 2020, 04:47:28 pm
Hasn’t the so-called new evidence had been dismissed as a Newscorpse fabrication?
Who dismissed it?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 15, 2020, 04:54:56 pm
Who dismissed it?
Given News Corps love of circular references, I suspect ............................. News Corp!

Usually in the form of Full New York Front Page, news break, bulletin leading headline today, followed by small isolated local regional blurb Page. 65 technical clarification tomorrow, framed in a low contrast font and positioned below a full colour bare breasted tattooed angel called Baby! In regions where nudity offends, in the 3rd last column of the wanted Ads under a heading of Possible Correction.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 15, 2020, 04:59:14 pm
Hasn’t the so-called new evidence had been dismissed as a Newscorpse fabrication?

So why has the Twitter CEO (seemingly) aplogised for the ban?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12932483/twitter-ceo-admits-botching-hunter-nypost-scoop-trump/
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 15, 2020, 05:03:47 pm
Didn't you read my circular reference comment? :o

The Sun UK, owner News UK(Parent company News Corp Ltd.)

The Sun UK, charging fearlessly and headlong to the defence of the New York Post(Parent company News Corp Ltd!)

Akin to claiming this is true, because we said it's true!

The big problem isn't noticing or exposing this practise, the big problem is that once it is exposed you will struggle to find a source that isn't already bastardised!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 15, 2020, 05:19:19 pm
Didn't you read my circular reference comment? :o

The Sun UK, owner News UK(Parent company News Corp Ltd.)

The Sun UK, charging fearlessly and headlong to the defence of the New York Post(Parent company News Corp Ltd!)

Akin to claiming this is true, because we said it's true!

The big problem isn't noticing or exposing this practise, the big problem is that once it is exposed you will struggle to find a source that isn't already bastardised!

Don't play me for dumb.  I know that ... why do you think I said "seemingly"  >:(
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 15, 2020, 08:32:39 pm
Last Exit From Autocracy (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/last-exit-trump-autocracy/616466/), The Atlantic.

This is from David Frum, a speechwriter for George Dubya. His thesis is that democracy won’t survive another 4 years of Trump.

Does this foreshadow an endorsement of Biden by George Dubya? Would such an endorsement help Biden?

No doubt Trump would explode if this happens. Would that cause him to lose focus on Biden?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on October 15, 2020, 11:25:08 pm
Who dismissed it?

At this stage, the story has been dismissed by the independent media, social media and Joe Biden's camp.  The only supporters are Newscorpse, and that's hardly something to hang your hat on.  When you think about it, what are the chances of a laptop with highly sensitive emails being left at a computer repair shop?  ::)

I expect that there will be a retraction from Newscorpse in the coming days, but the damage will have been done.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 16, 2020, 09:34:23 am
We should have learnt our lesson.
Expect the unexpected...
Take a break for a bit and read, rinse and recycle the first twenty or so pages of this thread...it's pretty funny how set we were in our opinions (which haven't shifted much).

If Trump becomes the President of the USA, I am moving to the moon.......

How's the weather up there today tonyo.  :D  :D  :D

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on October 16, 2020, 09:44:09 am
We should have learnt our lesson.
Expect the unexpected...
Take a break for a bit and read, rinse and recycle the first twenty or so pages of this thread...it's pretty funny how set we were in our opinions (which haven't shifted much).

How's the weather up there today tonyo.  :D  :D  :D



I had every intention, but it wasn't within my 5km zone......

 ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 16, 2020, 09:56:26 am
I had every intention, but it wasn't within my 5km zone......

 ;)
;D

Zika in 2016 never really impacted.
no doubt Covid will.



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 16, 2020, 10:07:10 am
Given News Corps love of circular references, I suspect ............................. News Corp!

Usually in the form of Full New York Front Page, news break, bulletin leading headline today, followed by small isolated local regional blurb Page. 65 technical clarification tomorrow, framed in a low contrast font and positioned below a full colour bare breasted tattooed angel called Baby! In regions where nudity offends, in the 3rd last column of the wanted Ads under a heading of Possible Correction.

You're probably on the mark here LP. This circular technique or similar apparently is used even more widely to establish desired narratives for political purposes and retractions are not always forthcoming.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 16, 2020, 11:39:47 am
I read an article recently about a news site that was ordered to print a retraction. For the life of me, I can’t remember the site or even if it was in the US or Aus. But the site printed the retraction at the bottom of the Users Terms of Use! The editor tried to argue this was the appropriate place for it but the judge didn’t agree  ;D

EDIT: A man sued over a segment on Channel 10’s The Project insinuating he was to blame for the death of another man (in an admittedly weird scenario). Channel 10 printed the “clarification” on its Terms of Use page: Ten slammed by judge for hiding defamation statement on Terms of Use page (https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/ten-slammed-by-judge-for-hiding-defamation-statement-on-terms-of-use-page/news-story/bd22a14b88cb6e1c22f82cf23006a5bd)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on October 16, 2020, 11:48:07 am
How's the weather up there today tonyo.  :D  :D  :D

At least he doesn’t have to worry about COVID 🙂
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 16, 2020, 12:06:42 pm
Don't play me for dumb.  I know that ... why do you think I said "seemingly"  >:(
@capcom‍, if you know it is probably rubbish reporting why re-post the link then, why give it even more notoriety here?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 16, 2020, 12:12:47 pm
You're probably on the mark here LP. This circular technique or similar apparently is used even more widely to establish desired narratives for political purposes and retractions are not always forthcoming.
Actually they are published quite often for legal purposes but you won't see them easily, cynically they might be in a 4 or 6 pt font suitably obscured by vague language or cluttered design to ensure finding them is like finding a toothpick surrounded by mighty oak trees.

News Ltd are professionals at feeding the chickens, with recycled dead chicken.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 16, 2020, 04:50:49 pm
@LP

Been looking for the retraction of the Biden story, have you seen anything?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 16, 2020, 05:01:50 pm
@LP

Been looking for the retraction of the Biden story, have you seen anything?
Best way to find them is wait for the court case, then News Corp Ltd will tell you where, when and which edition they hid it in!

Reminds me of when the Treasurer tells the public about those previously gazetted tax changes!
(Gazetted in a Special Edition at 7pm on a Friday night before a long weekend, which by the following Tuesday morning has become the previous/past edition that nobody read!) ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 16, 2020, 05:08:13 pm
Best way to find them is wait for the court case, then News Corp Ltd will tell you where and which edition they hid it in!

Reminds me of when the Treasurer tells the public about those previously gazetted tax changes!
(Gazetted at 7pm on a Friday night before a long weekend, which by the following Tuesday morning has become a previous/past edition!) ;D

Cheers mate, no worries. Just academic interest.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 16, 2020, 05:19:32 pm
Cheers mate, no worries. Just academic interest.
;D @cookie2‍, I worked for News Ltd for a decade, and the HWT before it became News Ltd, I suspect they have more ways to bury the dead than any politician!

When I was there there were some sub-editors who would even make it hard to find the published winners of a promotional quiz, so that few if any would claim minor prizes! They knew very few readers would go looking for the supplementary stuff. The magazine editors had facilities they kept prizes locked up in, and each promo had a cut-off date, after the cut-off date they would divvy up the left-overs or have an office party on the "waste" like Christmas in July. Some managers/editors were more ethical, donating the spoils to charity, but not all! btw., This is for prizes below a certain value, above a certain value unclaimed prizes had to be surrendered to the state. For example, they give away a car and some other major prizes, with a stack of trivial products, vouchers and gifts for dozens or hundreds of runner-up types. But a stack of lower prizes are never claimed and never see the light of day before the cut-off date, but I'll guarantee you every winner's name was published on-time and as required by the law!

In fairness, I suppose organisations like McDonald's do the very same, they promote multi-million dollar games like McNopoly, but what portion of McNopoly is never claimed? But I doubt the managers and staff load up on unclaimed French Fries!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 16, 2020, 05:39:17 pm
There was a doco called McMillions which was all about the fact that for a decade there were almost no genuine winners of McDonald’s 1 million dollar prizes in the US.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 17, 2020, 12:43:41 am
The Atlantic doesn’t think George Dubya will endorse Biden: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/10/george-w-bush-trump-2020/616713/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/10/george-w-bush-trump-2020/616713/).
On the plus side, I can continue to think he was totally useless without putting a “but ...” in those thoughts.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 17, 2020, 08:11:50 am
@LP

Getting a bit off topic now but a mate of mine a few years ago paid hundreds of dollars for a ticket in a raffle in support of under privileged youth, first prize a new Porsche. Next thing he knew he was dragged into an investigation into the whole thing. Long story short, it was a massive scam that had pocketed most of the cash over many years and the prize was always won by the same person connected to the scam.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on October 17, 2020, 08:41:07 am
I along with 2000 other people have spent a couple of hundred dollars on a raffle ticket for a football club that I support to only to see the prize be won by a director and donated back to the club where they auctioned/sold it for market price.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 17, 2020, 09:32:46 am
Cookie, your dream has come true! There WILL be an investigation after all: FBI Probing If Russia Involved In Hunter Biden Email Story (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/fbi-probe-hunter-biden-email-new-york-post_n_5f8a032ec5b62dbe71c2b067).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 17, 2020, 10:33:15 am
Cookie, your dream has come true! There WILL be an investigation after all: FBI Probing If Russia Involved In Hunter Biden Email Story (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/fbi-probe-hunter-biden-email-new-york-post_n_5f8a032ec5b62dbe71c2b067).

Yes I saw that Mav, there were murmurings about it Fri (US time). I await further developments, if any, with interest.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 17, 2020, 10:39:44 am
Depends on who wins the election I guess (and if Biden wins, whether he decides to brush all of the Trump stuff under the carpet).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 17, 2020, 10:43:24 am
Depends on who wins the election I guess (and if Biden wins, whether he decides to brush all of the Trump stuff under the carpet).

Yep. Bets being hedged at the moment I think.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 17, 2020, 01:32:18 pm
I really hope if Biden wins he doesn’t choose to sweep all of Trump’s corruption under the carpet in the naive hope he’ll be rewarded by bipartisanship. He should instead have something like the Truth & Reconciliation Commission in South Africa to expose the extent of it as well as allowing the FBI to prosecute cases against Trump once he loses his presidential immunity. Only then will there be the necessary groundswell to change the system to eradicate the vulnerabilities Trump has exploited.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on October 17, 2020, 02:54:23 pm
I really hope if Biden wins he doesn’t choose to sweep all of Trump’s corruption under the carpet in the naive hope he’ll be rewarded by bipartisanship. He should instead have something like the Truth & Reconciliation Commission in South Africa to expose the extent of it as well as allowing the FBI to prosecute cases against Trump once he loses his presidential immunity. Only then will there be the necessary groundswell to change the system to eradicate the vulnerabilities Trump has exploited.

A truly terrific example of TDS.

Biden, Clintons, Obama - they're the ones who should be fearing corruption investigation.

Sleepy Joe's dopey son has pretty much guaranteed a Trump victory.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 17, 2020, 03:08:32 pm
No, I drew a TDS response though  :D

Did you like John Kelly describing his former boss as the most flawed individual he’s ever met? How dare he say that about the Dear Leader. Wonder if Trump will call on Barr to prosecute him for treason.

Here’s the full quote attributed to him by his friends:
Quote
The depths of his dishonesty is just astounding to me. The dishonesty, the transactional nature of every relationship, though it's more pathetic than anything else. He is the most flawed person I have ever met in my life.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 17, 2020, 04:30:05 pm
We're well aware of the perils of writing Trump off.
I just get  the (gut) feeling that it's slipping quickly away from him at this time.
At the end of the day the American votes  that count, the ones where the election is decided, will have to decide whether they vote for the certainty of continued division and turmoil under Trump or the possibility of an 'opportunity' to mend the country.

That healing won't take place in the short term.
It's probably not something a Biden/Harris regime will be able to achieve because the divisions are too great.
And whether you agree with their methods or not, the Democrats actions in opposition haven't won over many.
People will be voting more 'against' Trump than 'for' Biden.
It's for a future President (and maybe even movement) that inspires people and gives them real hope to really fix things.
Many aspects are likely to get worse before they start to get better.
Some divisions may be even unfixable.

But if it's a choice between the 'certainty' (of Trump) and a chance of something more stable and better, I suspect folks will take a chance.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 17, 2020, 06:11:19 pm
We're well aware of the perils of writing Trump off.
I just get  the (gut) feeling that it's slipping quickly away from him at this time.
At the end of the day the American votes  that count, the ones where the election is decided, will have to decide whether they vote for the certainty of continued division and turmoil under Trump or the possibility of an 'opportunity' to mend the country.

That healing won't take place in the short term.
It's probably not something a Biden/Harris regime will be able to achieve because the divisions are too great.
And whether you agree with their methods or not, the Democrats actions in opposition haven't won over many.
People will be voting more 'against' Trump than 'for' Biden.
It's for a future President (and maybe even movement) that inspires people and gives them real hope to really fix things.
Many aspects are likely to get worse before they start to get better.
Some divisions may be even unfixable.

But if it's a choice between the 'certainty' (of Trump) and a chance of something more stable and better, I suspect folks will take a chance.

Agree...its not that Joe Biden is the next great president its more about the hatred for Trump, wonder how the USA will cope with Harris running the country/world when she takes over from sleepy Joe.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 17, 2020, 06:21:40 pm
Agree...its not that Joe Biden is the next great president its more about the hatred for Trump, wonder how the USA will cope with Harris running the country/world when she takes over from sleepy Joe.

I jokingly referred to Biden as a 'Trojan horse' a few pages back.
That's probably a fair description.
He'll likely carry Harris to the Presidency.

Harris was not the candidate the Democrats could have put forward as a first choice nominee otherwise she would have lasted longer in the primaries.
Riding the Biden wake she is a fair chance to be the next President.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 17, 2020, 08:06:00 pm
To be fair, there was a fair bit of strategic consolidation happening which makes it hard to work through “what ifs”. Bernie and Biden would never have considered settling for a VP slot. But Booker, Buttigieg, Klobuchar, Castro and Harris were young enough and in need of national exposure enough that they would have been betting on the place rather than win only. And some of the others may be rewarded by cabinet positions.

That’s the weird thing about the US system. The minimum age for President is 35, while the minimum age for the Senate and the House are 30 and 25 respectively. It’s hard to earn your stripes as you can do in the party system in Oz. Being in the Senate isn’t a quick launching pad for a presidential run as the plum roles in Senate committees are awarded on seniority. A senator also doesn’t want to put in too many years in the Senate as the public tends to think they’re lazy and part of the gridlock in Congress (and their voting history can come back to haunt them).

Few Senators have won the presidency without having some other claim to fame. JFK was a war hero & studmuffin and Obama made a keynote address at the Democratic National Convention which catapulted him into the spotlight. Nixon was gifted a VP spot halfway through his 1st term as a Senator. And Biden relies more upon his VP status than he does his long service in the Senate.

Reagan, Clinton & George W. made their names as State Governors while George H.W. Bush made his name as a UN Ambassador & CIA Director and then VP. None of them bothered to run for Congress.

So running as a candidate for your party’s nomination is usually a way to introduce yourself to the nationwide public rather than winning in your first go. Not only did Harris generate name recognition during the primaries, if she becomes VP she will be in the box seat.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 19, 2020, 02:46:23 pm
Looks like the Hunter Biden story was just a whoopee cushion rather than a nuclear bomb. Unless you consume Fox News or Brietbart, it’s as though it never happened.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 19, 2020, 04:28:25 pm
Looks like the Hunter Biden story was just a whoopee cushion rather than a nuclear bomb. Unless you consume Fox News or Brietbart, it’s as though it never happened.
They are not stupid, and the USA still has a brace of lawyers looking to profit from liable laws! Fox and Brietbart might just see a liable case as the cost of victory, but not everybody will see things that way!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 19, 2020, 05:51:25 pm
Looks like Trump will win by divine intervention..the numbers are starting to align, next the planets etc etc...
https://au.news.yahoo.com/us-election-2020-why-astrologists-think-donald-trump-will-win-200436225.html
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on October 20, 2020, 08:42:53 am
Looks like the Hunter Biden story was just a whoopee cushion rather than a nuclear bomb. Unless you consume Fox News or Brietbart, it’s as though it never happened.

And you're basing that on what?

It's already before a Senate Committee and the FBI has been ordered to respond to a host of questions by Thursday.

Any denials coming out of the Biden camp that the laptop isn't Hunter's?

Show me one.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: dodge on October 20, 2020, 09:28:26 am
Some States open postal/absentee voting 55 days before the election - what were the issues then, and what impact would those have had?  Anything that happens over the next two weeks has a lower impact due to the general rise of postal voting.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 20, 2020, 09:42:35 am
No doubt the plan was that this story was going to erupt and each new day would bring another leak of emails on the drip feed to keep the story going. Instead, the story failed to catch fire. Much of the comment was about it being a Russian operation, and Facebook & Twitter limited its spread.

A slow-burner isn’t what Trump needs. I guess you already know the election is only 2 weeks away. Moreover, there have already been 28 million early votes cast in the 21 States that have had it up to this point (with another handful of States opening early voting today, including Florida). Given the expectation that the total of votes will end up being 150 million, the Trump campaign needs the story to catch fire now, not in 2 weeks or in the months ahead.

By the way, the CNN legal commentator, Jeffrey Toobin, has died by his own hand (metaphorically speaking). He was in a Zoom meeting in his capacity as a New Yorker columnist and thought his video was off. Whatever was being discussed must have been arousing and he was caught on camera trying to relieve the tension!

Dodge, I see we were thinking the same thing. I posted mine before I saw your post.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on October 20, 2020, 10:16:10 am
Any denials coming out of the Biden camp that the laptop isn't Hunter's?

Things are just warming up
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 20, 2020, 10:31:29 am
By the way, this will no doubt be raised by Trump in the debate on Thursday but this will be problematic for Trump. He would have preferred to raise it after all the mud had been thrown. Instead, he’ll be the one trying to make the case. Biden will be able to immediately counterattack and lambast Trump for cooking up a smear with the help of Russia. He can tie it in with the 2016 Russian election interference and the impeachment over Ukrainian meddling.

No matter how much Trump will claim he had nothing to do with it, Rudy and Steve Bannon have their fingerprints all over it and we know Rudy was sent by Trump to Ukraine to try to smear Biden.

We already have Biden’s denial there was any meeting with Burisma and he has reiterated that he was tasked by the White House to lobby for the sacking of a corrupt prosecutor who had refused to investigate Burisma. This was supported by European nations. He did this successfully, so he hurt rather than helped Burisma. He also inferred that his son had never proposed such a meeting by saying he never discussed either son’s work activities. I hope that Biden goes further in the debate by saying the hard drive contained forgeries but Trump would need to do more than smear Hunter Biden to impact Joe Biden.

And what will Trump hope to achieve? He can only hope voters who are concerned about corruption will say “a pox on both your Houses” and abstain from voting as Trump and his family have been shamelessly raking in cash from foreign governments. It’s unlikely those voters will flock to Trump. It’s much more likely they’ll vote for Biden as there’s no real contest when it comes to dishonesty and corruption.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 20, 2020, 10:32:35 am
Things are just warming up

Looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 20, 2020, 11:01:52 am
Trump's always been a bit of a Teflon man.
Nothing seemed to stick to him.
Things that would normally bring down mere 'mortal politicians' seemed to have had  little or no effect on him.
The 'fake news' tag seemed to work.

I'm just wondering though, whether after 4 years of this 'phenomenon', it now applies equally to his opposition as well.
Do folks really worry as much about Biden's family, influences, e-mails etc as they might have pre-Trump.
I suspect it only has an impact on the already committed.

Others just see it as part of the political 'push and shove' and it wont factor into their vote  to any great extent.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 20, 2020, 11:46:14 am
Trump's always been a bit of a Teflon man.
Nothing seemed to stick to him.
Not so it seems in official channels, like banks, financial authorities and sovereign states are reported to have turned their back on his empire. It's virtually impossible to determine the truth of this without some state authority investigating, but if the reports are true in those official circles Trump is persona non-grata.

What we might refer to as credible banks, if there is such a thing, won't deal with him. So he has to do dodgy dealings with dodgy financial institutions based in even dodgier locations, which is an irony given how he freely throws around the accusations about others dealing with Russia.

I'm gobsmacked some aren't claiming that he is insolvent, perhaps he is saved by the Presidency for now! I realise that the debate around insolvency for people with 9 or 10 digit fortunes is a tad academic, because they move so much money around fortunes can sway so very very quickly, from billion$ to bu$t then back to billion$ is a common tale.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 20, 2020, 12:06:23 pm
Imagine how quickly business at his premises will dry up when he ceases to be President. Trump Hotel in Washington is the go to for lobbyists and visiting foreign dignitaries even though there’s a cheaper 5-star hotel close by. IIRC, one country booked and paid for a whole floor even though it wasn’t used. A few months ago, Trump put it up for sale on the strength of that custom but nobody was interested as patronage would plummet immediately after any sale. Trump even mothballed a long-planned move by the FBI away from its building close to Trump’s Hotel no doubt because he’d lose custom from those visiting the FBI!

Then you have the frequent trips Trump and his extended family make to Trump properties. That forces the Secret Service to pay Trump for their accommodation and food in those places at inflated rates. The expectation is that Trump will move to Maralago for the 2 months of his lame-duck presidency if he loses so he can rip as much money from the public purse as possible.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 20, 2020, 12:21:05 pm
The Washington Post reported in 2018 that a lobbyist for Saudi Arabia paid for 500 rooms after the 2016 election over 3 months. So Saudi Arabia put a quarter of a million dollars in Trump’s pocket :o

I’m thinking Saudi Arabia thinks it got great bang for its bucks!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 20, 2020, 01:14:25 pm
The Debate Commission has announced that a candidate’s mic will be muted while his opponent has 2 minutes to answer a question/comment on an issue  :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on October 23, 2020, 10:37:49 am
It seems that the laptop story gained more traction here than in the USA:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-23/joe-biden-hunter-laptop-allegations-us-election-2020/12801162?utm_source=abc_news_web&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_content=link&utm_campaign=abc_news_web

With few exceptions, the US media seems to have decided that a doctored laptop was planted and the stooge Giuliani fell for it.  Perhaps he should have kept his hand inside his pants  :)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 23, 2020, 01:48:27 pm
Helluva different debate to the 1st.

Trump was a normal human for once. He actually was a good debater. He managed to trap Biden on the ropes regarding his record in the Senate and in the Vice-Presidency. Maybe he’ll be able to persuade young black men to sit out the election or switch votes. Maybe he might have gained some votes in oil and coal country by getting Biden to say those industries are needed now but will lose out in order to have carbon neutrality by 2035. If I were awarding points on presentation, I’d give it to Trump. But he did so by lying his ar$e off and he’ll lose points in the post-debate fact-checking.

But Biden was good too. He did well enough to say he did his chances no harm, and when you’re ahead that’s not a bad thing. He was able to dominate on covid & healthcare.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 23, 2020, 02:04:52 pm
By the way, this debate marked the death of the New York Post story. Trump made almost coded references to it but didn’t ask the sort of questions a lawyer would to flush out Biden’s position on what was genuine and what wasn’t. I don’t think he lacks the guts or desire to do it. I’m sure he accepted advice that focussing on this issue would alienate mainstream voters. Instead, his subtle references to the story were calibrated to resonate only with his base who are already well aware of the story. It takes its place beside stories such as the one that says Democrats are satanist paedophiles who eat the flesh of children.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on October 23, 2020, 06:14:56 pm
Donald spent far too much time trying to hang labels on Biden. 

When it came to policy, it was almost laughable - he trades on cliches, eg he said his new Healthcare plan to protect the 22 million on Obamacare and protect those with pre-existing conditions was going to be 'an amazing healthcare package'.  He said exactly the same thing 4 years ago.  This guy is a snake oil salesman who has minimal credibility as a democratic leader.

Unfortunately, Biden is no Nelson Mandela either.....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 23, 2020, 07:12:59 pm
Donald spent far too much time trying to hang labels on Biden. 

When it came to policy, it was almost laughable - he trades on cliches, eg he said his new Healthcare plan to protect the 22 million on Obamacare and protect those with pre-existing conditions was going to be 'an amazing healthcare package'.  He said exactly the same thing 4 years ago.  This guy is a snake oil salesman who has minimal credibility as a democratic leader.

Unfortunately, Biden is no Nelson Mandela either.....
 The labels probably work with a lot of the US voting public, not sure they have 4 year memories.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 23, 2020, 07:52:08 pm
The labels probably work with a lot of the US voting public, not sure they have 4 year memories.

Yep, makes sense bearing in mind also that the US electorate, from what came out from the polical quadrant test, are possibly skewed quite  a bit more to the right overall than we are here. From my own limited observations I suspect there is some truth to this.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 25, 2020, 11:30:46 am
https://theconversation.com/trump-v-biden-a-duel-of-contrasting-masculinities-148300
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 27, 2020, 09:49:07 am
Looks as though Putin thinks Trump is going to lose:
Putin rejects Donald Trump's criticism of Biden family business[\url], Reuters.
(https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN27A0TA)
Quote
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Sunday that he saw nothing criminal in Hunter Biden’s past business ties with Ukraine or Russia, marking out his disagreement with one of Donald Trump’s attack lines in the U.S. presidential election.

Putin was responding to comments made by Trump during televised debates with Democratic challenger Joe Biden ahead of the Nov. 3 election.


Putin appeared less friendly towards Trump in remarks broadcast by Russian state TV on Sunday. In what may be seen by some analysts as an attempt to try to curry favour with the Biden camp, he took the time to knock down what he made clear he regarded as false allegations from Trump about the Bidens.

“Yes, in Ukraine he (Hunter Biden) had or maybe still has a business, I don’t know. It doesn’t concern us. It concerns the Americans and the Ukrainians,” said Putin.

“But well yes he had at least one company, which he practically headed up, and judging from everything he made good money. I don’t see anything criminal about this, at least we don’t know anything about this (being criminal).”

Putin also reacted with visible irritation when asked about comments Trump has made concerning Putin’s ties to the former mayor of Moscow, and to an alleged payment made to Hunter Biden by the ex-mayor’s widow. Putin said he knew nothing about the existence of any commercial relationship between Hunter and the woman. Joe Biden says the accusation about his son is not true.
But is he simply hedging his bets or withdrawing support from Trump entirely? If the latter, maybe all Russian interference in the election might cease. After all, Putin knows a President Biden will receive a briefing from the US intelligence agencies regarding election interference soon after assuming office (and perhaps soon after the election if those briefs are given to both the sitting President and the President Elect).

Does this reduce the chances of a Russian-inspired October surprise? Might Putin release some of his Kompromat against Trump to ensure he doesn’t have to deal with a vengeful Trump for the next 4 years?

It’s so Shakespearean: Julius Caesar with a tinge of MacBeth.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 27, 2020, 10:05:09 am
It’s so Shakespearean: Julius Caesar with a tinge of MacBeth.
...and a touch of Monty Python ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 27, 2020, 10:08:38 am
Yes, much more fitting :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 27, 2020, 11:53:02 am

It’s so Shakespearean: Julius Caesar with a tinge of MacBeth.

And a huge dollop of Peter Pan from Trump (& love Principal LODS' inclusion - Monty Python!).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 27, 2020, 12:00:05 pm
https://theconversation.com/trump-v-biden-a-duel-of-contrasting-masculinities-148300

Very interesting read.

Biden is paternalistic for sure.

Trump would like to be authoritarian and does his best to come across as such but his masculinity, as I mentioned previously, is built upon Peter Pan Syndrome and lashings of narcissism (tautology?).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 27, 2020, 12:02:31 pm
I've feel there has been a broad media swing / softening towards Trump in recent days, I'm not sure why and I doubt it's due to anything he has actually said, Trump and Republican commentary has been fairly bland in recent days. It's like somebody has finally convinced Trump the more he opens his mouth the bigger his problems become.

So it's more likely the recent swings are in response to something Biden or another democrat has stated.

Perhaps the media want the election to be on a knife edge, like our recent hung parliament, which leaves the media with artificially inflated power.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 27, 2020, 12:08:35 pm
I've feel there has been a broad media swing / softening towards Trump in recent days, I'm not sure why and I doubt it's due to anything he has actually said, Trump and Republican commentary has been fairly bland in recent days. It's like somebody has finally convinced Trump the more he opens his mouth the bigger his problems become.

So it's more likely the recent swings are in response to something Biden or another democrat has stated.

Perhaps the media want the election to be on a knife edge, like our recent hung parliament, which leaves the media with artificially inflated power.
US Voters are waking up to the fact its Trump vs Harris and do they want a female Obama as the next president when Biden steps down after he has won the election..
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 27, 2020, 01:29:47 pm
Another Obama? Yes! 😍🤗👍🙏👏
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 27, 2020, 01:57:54 pm
US Voters are waking up to the fact its Trump vs Harris and do they want a female Obama as the next president when Biden steps down after he has won the election..

I read that there was a swing to someone called George? 🤔
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 27, 2020, 02:25:20 pm
George Lopez? He’s not running. Great to see Trump being dishonest to the end.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 27, 2020, 02:30:58 pm
I read that there was a swing to someone called George? 🤔

Boy George?...wondered where had got to, maybe him and Kanye can form an alliance.😎

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 27, 2020, 02:36:30 pm
Boy George?...wondered where had got to, maybe him and Kanye can form an alliance.😎
:D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on October 27, 2020, 02:39:36 pm
:D
Can see George singing to Trump...."Do you really want to hurt me Trumpy, do you really want to see me cry"....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on October 27, 2020, 02:49:07 pm
Can see George singing to Trump...."Do you really want to hurt me Trumpy, do you really want to see me cry"....

To which the Donald would reply, "You're fired!"
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 27, 2020, 02:52:03 pm
Just in case there are any out there who haven’t delved into this Trump rabbit-hole:

Biden was talking to George Lopez, an actor & comedian, in a video event. As he was making a comment, he referenced George as you do in conversation before slamming Trump by name. So the Trump campaign edited out George Lopez from the Zoom-type video and made sure there was no lead up from Lopez. Then the Trump campaign suggested Biden had a memory lapse and seemed to think George Bush is the President. Shameful stuff. Even worse that Fox News & NBC fell for it, though they’ve now apologised for broadcasting it without checking for context.

Sadly, Trump’s campaign has chosen to edit videos dishonestly as a go-to weapon. Plenty of examples: just google it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 27, 2020, 02:52:51 pm
To which the Donald would reply, "You're fired!"
No, no, that's the old Donald.

We've a new restrained Donald now, who's caring and sharing, sharing COVID, sharing disinformation, sharing all sorts of crap while caring stuff all! The least racist person in the room, he hates everybody equally, the only one he really likes is in the mirror! ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 27, 2020, 02:54:36 pm
Even worse that Fox News & NBC fell for it, though they’ve now apologised for broadcasting it without checking for context.
I doubt that was a mistake.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 28, 2020, 03:17:03 pm
@Mav‍, the US is on course for the biggest voter turn out in 120 years, who benefits Trump or Biden?

Sadly, Trump’s campaign has chosen to edit videos dishonestly as a go-to weapon. Plenty of examples: just google it.
I know it makes no difference, but both our Dots and CheatsFC TV news broadcasts ran the dodgy video as part of last nights news, the dodgy nature of the video edit was self evident. Since when does a Zoom digital meeting broadcast suffer old fashioned analogue static or electrical storm interference? You don't get a lightning bolt flash and snowy picture on digital, it was a phone video of an edited digital video, made to look like it was poor quality analogue TV!

Neither posted a correction, I think that is good news for Trump.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 28, 2020, 08:13:37 pm
It’s really difficult for pollsters in the USA to figure out what the early vote means, let alone someone like me thousands of kilometres away. All I can do is regurgitate bits of what I’ve read or heard.

The first issue is whether the total vote will really increase. The total of votes cast already exceeds votes cast before the 2016 election but this may just mean voters who would normally vote in person have voted early because of the pandemic and the greater availability of mail-in voting.

The next issue is whether Trump’s war on mail-in voting has dissuaded his base from voting early. In Florida and another State, the GOP was alarmed that he was undermining their successful attempts to persuade a Republican voters to vote by mail. Ironically, Trump had to tell voters in those 2 States that voting by mail was fantastic! But if Democrats vote early and GOP voters vote mostly on Election Day, this won’t change the final voting tallies anyway. Bear in mind that Trump only seems to attack mail-in voting, not in-person early voting or absentee voting (despite the latter being mail-in voting!)

It would be tempting to say the large early vote must mostly be Democrat but it’s hard to say. Not all States reveal the registered party affiliation of the early voters but the ones that do show that 48% of them are registered Democrats while registered GOP voters make up 29.1% of early voters. While this is encouraging for the Democrats, remember that registered Democrats can vote for Trump and registered Republicans can vote for Biden. There’d be quite a few voters who have switched parties over time without changing their details. Then you have the almost 23% whose affiliation isn’t known.

Another area of uncertainty is how Biden and Trump are able to register voters so they can vote and how able they are to chase them up to make sure they do. Trump has been organising rallies in swing states while Biden has preferred video events. This advantages Trump as his workers record the information of rally attendees and use that to register them and nag them to vote. They also do this with merhandise sales. Trump’s volunteers are also more active in door-to-door canvassing than Biden’s given Biden’s concerns about Covid. There have been reports in Florida of the GOP having a big edge in new registrations in the Miami-Dade region.

Then there’s the question of how successful Trump will be in suppressing the votes of Democrats. How many mail-in votes will be rejected for one reason or another? How many Biden voters will be turned away from voting booths because the GOP has managed to kick them off the voting rolls? How long will voters in urban areas have to queue to vote on Election Day? Will armed militia men succeed in dissuading black voters from voting?

In other words, who the hell knows? I’ll just wait until the votes are tallied. I’d have better luck figuring out who’ll win next week’s NFL matches than working out who’ll win the election based on early voting trends.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 29, 2020, 10:03:29 am
Here’s a hidden camera reveal of Republican strategists giving Rudy & Donnie some advice about the Hunter Biden “scandal”:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?noapp=1&v=Pubd-spHN-0 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?noapp=1&v=Pubd-spHN-0)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on October 29, 2020, 12:24:15 pm
Or you could read the Senate report.....

https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/HSGAC%20-%20Finance%20Joint%20Report%202020.09.23.pdf

page 65 on....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 29, 2020, 12:43:21 pm
Hmmm ... I’d love to spend my time wading through a Republican-controlled Committee’s report (knowing that Lindsay Graham and his colleagues would never act as Trump’s henchmen). But maybe you can summarise it for me so I can spend my time doing more important things such as picking the lint from my belly-button. By the way, how many Americans will read it? I’d imagine not many bothered to read the Mueller report, allowing Barr to paint it as exonerating Trump.

You’re falling into the trap: try as you might, you’re not going to make Fetch happen, no matter how hard you try. With only 6 days to go, it ain’t going to break into the mainstream media. A lot of low-information voters will cast their votes without even knowing about this so-called scandal. And even if they’re aware that there’s some issue with Hunter Biden, they won’t think that taints Joe Biden (which is the same conclusion reasonable people who follow the story will reach anyway). Only the right-wing echo chamber still thinks it’s a thing    ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on October 29, 2020, 02:15:34 pm
https://theconversation.com/who-exactly-is-trumps-base-why-white-working-class-voters-could-be-key-to-the-us-election-147267

Perhaps only of peripheral interest.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 29, 2020, 02:30:35 pm
As I noted above, I won’t be counting my chooks before they’re hatched and I expect the Democrats won’t either. But I hope someone on the Democratic side of the fence is planning to stop Trump from setting fire to the joint if he loses.

The problem is that EVERY member of the House has to seek re-election and presumably they’re campaigning now and a third of the Senators are in the same position. I hope there are some party officials who can do the honours until the election is over.

Trump will have more than 2 months as President after the election if he loses and if he’s in the mood to take revenge on perceived enemies and create mayhem. Can the Congress quickly initiate impeachment hearings to kick him out if he cuts loose? One problem is that the new Congress won’t be seated until the new year, so the Republicans can quickly acquit Trump as they have a majority (and 60 out of 100 votes would be needed to kick Trump out). But surely the Republicans will start to abandon Trump if he loses the election.

What could he do? Sack non-Trump bureaucrats and the FBI Director, appointing a flunky to persecute his enemies. He could punish States that vote against him by withholding federal funds. He could whip up violence among militias and use that to send in federal agents to crack down on minorities and likely Democratic voters. He could create a constitutional crisis by declaring that he won’t respect the outcome of the election. He has enough time and malice to do a heap of things.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 29, 2020, 03:02:36 pm
Flyboy, Tucker Carlson almost made Fetch a thing!

He told his viewers that he had come into possession of a cache of secret documents that would bust open the Hunter Biden Scandal TM. But the evil Satanic Paedophile Democrats have managed to save Biden again!

Quote
Carlson claimed a “source” gave the Fox News show “damning” documents about Biden on Monday. Carlson’s producer shipped the documents across the country via a “brand-name company,” but they never arrived.

Instead, the shipping company said the package had been opened and the documents were missing.

The shipping company launched a search and called in security to interview everyone who touched the documents, Carlson said.

“They went far and beyond, but they found nothing,” he said. “Those documents had vanished.”

He said the unnamed company’s executives are “baffled and deeply bothered by this, and so are we.”

Carlson did not explain why they shipped the only copy of “damning” documents.

Tucker Carlson’s Conspiracy Theory Falls Apart In The Weirdest Way Possible (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tucker-carlson-lost-his-papers_n_5f9a1b71c5b61d63241f32e4), HuffPost.

It’s worth checking out the article for the tweets of sympathy sent out to Carlson by concerned citizens 😂
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 29, 2020, 03:17:38 pm
Yes, I had the cure for cancer in the palm of my hand the other day, but as I ran through the streets proclaiming victory over the deadly disease it rained and I realised I hadn't used waterproof ink! :o

If only our office still had a photocopier, damn computers to hell!

Donald had received unequivocal proof that the China virus came from and was engineered by China, but unfortunately his fax/printer is made in America, it doesn't print Chinese characters!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on October 29, 2020, 03:30:36 pm
Flyboy, Tucker Carlson almost made Fetch a thing!

He told his viewers that he had come into possession of a cache of secret documents that would bust open the Hunter Biden Scandal TM. But the evil Satanic Paedophile Democrats have managed to save Biden again!

Tucker Carlson’s Conspiracy Theory Falls Apart In The Weirdest Way Possible (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tucker-carlson-lost-his-papers_n_5f9a1b71c5b61d63241f32e4), HuffPost.

It’s worth checking out the article for the tweets of sympathy sent out to Carlson by concerned citizens 😂

There were some classic Tweets sent to Carlson but my fave was, "It would be impossible to explain to aliens why Tucker Carlson has a show."
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 29, 2020, 03:31:40 pm
 :D

I loved the way it was branded “the Dog ate my conspiracy” excuse.  ^-^

No wonder Fox News defended a defamation suit against Tucker Carlson by arguing that no one takes him seriously. He’s just Alex Jones in a bow tie.

But you have to give the right wingers their due: they sure know how to whip up a conspiracy they can tease out each day with new “revelations”.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 30, 2020, 01:48:15 pm
The major US retailers appear so fearful of social disintegration surrounding a Trump loss and Trump then setting fire to the joint in the coming months, and it seems they now think he is going to lose, so they are pulling weapons and ammo from the shelves!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 30, 2020, 02:38:45 pm
Reportedly, Democratic voters were the ones causing the spike in sales. They anticipate a Biden win being met with a violent response from white supremacists, militias, and other Trump diehards.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on October 30, 2020, 02:45:46 pm
Reportedly, Democratic voters were the ones causing the spike in sales. They anticipate a Biden win being met with a violent response from white supremacists, militias, and other Trump diehards.
I read it's not really a sales spike, it removing weapons and ammo from shelves ahead of expected looting and riots under a Trump burning down the house response!

Trump, just an ordinary guy, burning down the house!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 30, 2020, 03:02:09 pm
The Hunter Biden “scandal” becomes more bizarre by the moment.

That motherTucker Carlson now says that UPS has found the missing thumbdrive, but he still suggests the dark Biden forces somehow made it disappear in the first place. He also concedes he had a copy anyway, so there was nothing stopping him from running with the story. So why hasn’t he done so? Because, he says, he’s a nice guy who won’t kick a man when he’s down  :D

More likely, his magnanimous decision has more to do with an expose by NBC News: How a fake persona laid the groundwork for a Hunter Biden conspiracy deluge (https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/how-fake-persona-laid-groundwork-hunter-biden-conspiracy-deluge-n1245387).

Quote
One month before a purported leak of files from Hunter Biden's laptop, a fake "intelligence" document about him went viral on the right-wing internet, asserting an elaborate conspiracy theory involving former Vice President Joe Biden's son and business in China.

The document, a 64-page composition that was later disseminated by close associates of President Donald Trump, appears to be the work of a fake "intelligence firm" called Typhoon Investigations, according to researchers and public documents.

The author of the document, a self-identified Swiss security analyst named Martin Aspen, is a fabricated identity, according to analysis by disinformation researchers, who also concluded that Aspen's profile picture was created with an artificial intelligence face generator. The intelligence firm that Aspen lists as his previous employer said that no one by that name had ever worked for the company and that no one by that name lives in Switzerland, according to public records and social media searches.

One of the original posters of the document, a blogger and professor named Christopher Balding, took credit for writing parts of it when asked about it and said Aspen does not exist.

Quote
The document gained attention from disinformation researchers in part because of the image of the document's author.

Elise Thomas, a researcher at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, first spotted telltale signs of a fake photo when she went searching for Typhoon Investigations' Aspen on the web. Thomas found a Twitter account for Aspen named @TyphoonInvesti1, which had posted a link to Typhoon's WordPress page that contained the document on Aug. 15.

The profile picture for Aspen immediately showed signs of being a computer-generated image that can be created by computers and even some websites. Aspen's ears were asymmetrical, for one, but his left eye is what gave away that he did not really exist. Aspen's left iris juts out and appears to form a second pupil, a somewhat frequent error with computer-generated faces.

"The most obvious tell was the irregular shape of the irises," Thomas said. "The profile picture looks pretty convincing in the Twitter thumbnail, but when I popped it up into full view I was immediately suspicious."

Thomas then consulted with Ben Nimmo, director of investigations at the analytics company Graphika, who noted the other telltale sign of a computer-generated face.

"One of the things he and his team have figured out is that if you layer a lot of these images over the top of one another, the eyes align," Thomas said. "He did that with this image, and the eyes matched up."

Other parts of Aspen's identity were clearly stolen from disparate parts of the web. Aspen's Facebook page was created in August, and it featured only two pictures, both from his "new house," which were tracked back to reviews on the travel website Tripadvisor. The logo for Typhoon Investigations was lifted from the Taiwan Fact-Checking Center, a digital literacy nonprofit.

If anybody needed any evidence that Trump and his merry band of ratf*ckers are the sleaziest criminals ever to grace the White House, look no further.

And to think Rudy Guiliani came out with the remarkable proposition that Twitter & Facebook should allow this cr@p (he was referring to the NY Post smear) to spread because even if it is disinformation the American public has a right to know it ::)


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on October 30, 2020, 03:16:07 pm
Watched gogglebox last night.

Saw the scene described here:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2020/oct/21/rudy-giuliani-faces-questions-after-compromising-scene-in-new-borat-film

It is not as innocent as Rudi paints but that girl looked more like a hooker than a teenager.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on October 30, 2020, 03:26:21 pm
Don’t you think the irony is the way Guiliani has been whining about being the victim of a fabrication? It’s like a professional thief bitching about a pickpocket taking his wallet.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on October 30, 2020, 05:11:51 pm
Probably all the hard work's been done on the question of "Should Trump be re-elected?"
The decision on that is pretty clear (but arguably that depends on your own personal point of view.  ;)  ;D )
But...
We're not voting.
Most of us anyway.
It's up to the American people.
The more interesting question now becomes "Will Trump be re-elected?"

I suspect many Americans have now reached the point (of divisive exhaustion) we're they're looking for an end to chaos.

A Trump victory won't work in that respect.
Neither will a narrow Biden victory.
If they want it over, the only real opportunity for that to happen  is a decisive Biden victory.
Even then it will need a lot of hard work, and a bit of time for the healing to occur.
It will make the early days of any Biden victory pretty edgy.

Despite poll results a lot of Democrats are still a bit wary after what happened last election, and what seems to be a bit of "shadowy support" where folks actually don't declare for Trump but still vote for him.

But it looks pretty grim for Trump.
Any attempt at a smoking gun is just coming up against a bit of a brick wall.
Much like things have bounced off Trump in the past, that particular effect seems to be working in a similar fashion for his opponents this time....probably because the accusations lack any real substance, and folks have become pretty cynical about those attacks anyway.
I'd suggest with only a few days to go, and a lot of voters having already cast their vote, that it is all over.
The really interesting period is the shenanigans likely to occur between polling day and inauguration.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 03, 2020, 04:21:29 pm
It’s a clean sweep for Biden! Dixville Notch NH has recorded 5 votes to Biden and none for Trump. We can put down the glasses right now  :P

Damn, Millsville NH has recorded 5 for Biden and 16 for Trump. It’s a roller coaster out there  :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 03, 2020, 05:00:13 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/news/trump-closing-message-cheat-001436238.html
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 03, 2020, 05:48:28 pm
I don't have inside info and it could be pure scuttlebutt  but was reading that there are a lot of big money bets going on  Trump to win. Haven't seen anything similar re Biden but who knows.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 03, 2020, 06:29:49 pm
Beer and Popcorn ready for a big day at the Circus.
Can't wait to see the 'clowns.'

The thing is it's not that funny.
We don't have a say in the result
It may seem far away but...
While the chaos and division continues in the States...and the virus runs rampant, it will end up affecting all of us in some way.

Whether we like it or not, whether he's our choice or not...There is really only one result that can at least set the USA on the path to a healing process.
That's for Biden to win and win well.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 03, 2020, 06:56:58 pm
https://au.yahoo.com/news/trump-closing-message-cheat-001436238.html

I think an absolute landslide win would be required by either candidate if there is to be any hope of avoiding serious civil strife .
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on November 03, 2020, 07:35:40 pm
I think an absolute landslide win would be required by either candidate if there is to be any hope of avoiding serious civil strife .

Apparently, if Trump has a lead in swing states like Wisconsin or Pennsylvania on the evening of the election, he can 'declare' victory then and there before most of the millions of postal votes can be counted.  If the electoral officials in the state are happy with the call (and amazingly enough electoral officials in the US are partisan), they can ratify the win and hand the electoral college votes to Trump.

This next few days/weeks/months could get very ugly.......
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 03, 2020, 08:34:04 pm
One candidate declaring victory has no legal impact. The losing candidate can concede defeat but again that has no legal effect (and candidates have withdrawn concessions when vote counts become more interesting).

AFAIK, States complete their vote counts in accordance with the rules in each State anyway. Remember that the ballot includes contests for House and Senate contests as well as those for the state legislatures and perhaps legislative initiatives, so no state is going to be able to save much time or money if it stops counting votes in the Presidential election. The most important impact of a concession is that it means the conceding candidate is closing the door on potential court challenges to overturn the vote count or requests for recounts (though, again, a candidate can withdraw the concession and challenge the result if s/he wishes).

Where it might create an issue is if the Supreme Court gets the opportunity to suppress the vote. If Trump gets an early lead and is able to incite rioting against further vote counting, pressure would go onto Biden to “do the right thing” for the country by accepting defeat and the Supreme Court might come up with some fiction to allow it to shut down counting to bring an end to the violence. Or a mob might storm a vote count to disrupt further counting and destroy ballots that are yet to be counted.

More importantly, Trump railing against the vote in places like Pennsylvania may give cover to the Republican legislature there to send a slate of Trump electors to the Electoral College competing with those won by Biden if Biden wins in that State. That might throw it back to Congress and could create an opening to steal the election.

PS: If it seems paranoid to suggest the Pennsylvania legislature might act in this way, consider that a month ago it tried to set up a standing commission with subpoena powers into voting fraud at the upcoming election. That caused an outcry from critics who thought it was laying the groundwork to reject the vote. The legislature was shocked, SHOCKED, that it’s laudable concern for election security had been misconstrued and deferred the issue until after the election.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 04, 2020, 12:22:10 pm
It looks like the US media has got what it wants.

A knife edge vote and all the resulting anarchy which delivers heaps of cheap media content!

I've no idea where politics goes from here, regardless of ideology it seems far too easy to manipulate social media and by reference then the associated mainstream media.

Even China's authoritarian system can't really survive long term, the early roots of it's demise is seen in Hong Kong.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 04, 2020, 12:56:29 pm
Chill. The media has been in an uncomfortable position. On the one hand they condemn Trump for foreshadowing a declaration of victory on election night: they stress that every vote must be counted and this may take days. But then they analyse early vote tallies as if they’re critical  :D

Just tune out for a few hours until the vote tallies approach completion.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 04, 2020, 01:09:59 pm
Exit polls are quite accurate, but I appreciate the reporting of them might not be so reliable! ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 04, 2020, 01:38:42 pm
Trump looks to have Florida.
Texas is even with 64% of votes counted.
Ohio is even with 69% of votes counted.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 04, 2020, 01:44:34 pm
It's funny, the source chosen determines the figures that get reported.

I've been watching both sides, they are equally biased in reporting, so I suspect the knife edge remains.

The consensus seems to be Trumps / Biden chances are equally good, but the Democrats have gained a bigger control over the house.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 04, 2020, 01:49:13 pm
Beware that those percentages of total votes are just estimates whereas in Australia they’re totally accurate. As voting isn’t compulsory, the analysts estimate how many will turn out. It’s unlikely they’ll get those estimates correct.

But I’m assuming Florida goes to Trump. There were rumblings about Latino voters not turning out for Biden as Democrats would have hoped. But the Latino voters aren’t a homogenous bloc. Cuban Americans tend to be very conservative, for instance. On the other hand, Biden may well perform much better with white voters and seniors in the Rust Belt.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Blues15 on November 04, 2020, 03:06:23 pm
I can’t do another 4 years of trump memes and seeing his face on tv 😭😭😭
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 04, 2020, 05:39:56 pm
Biden seems quite confident  :-\
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 04, 2020, 05:49:06 pm
Biden seems quite confident  :-\

Looks like postal votes may decide it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 04, 2020, 06:23:24 pm
Biden seems quite confident  :-\

Bizarre. No wonder Trump thinks they're cheating.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 04, 2020, 06:27:33 pm
Trump on now. He seems confident too.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 04, 2020, 06:28:51 pm
Trump on now. He seems confident too.

He has reason to be. The Dems don't unless....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 04, 2020, 06:32:35 pm
I think the Senate will be an issue for who ever wins and the USA will remain a mess...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 04, 2020, 06:37:59 pm
Trump saying he is taking it to court, WTF?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 04, 2020, 06:42:05 pm
I think the Senate will be an issue for who ever wins and the USA will remain a mess...

Absolutely ... on both counts EB
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 04, 2020, 06:44:39 pm
Trump saying he is taking it to court, WTF?

So is he confident about winning the election or confident about going to court?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 04, 2020, 06:47:38 pm
Bad outcome
No winners.
Everybody loses. ::)  :(

A 'poisoned chalice'  to the one who eventually ends up with top job.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 04, 2020, 06:49:38 pm
Trump saying he is taking it to court, WTF?


He paved the way with accusations of 'cheating & stealing' re postal votes and now reckons he'll take it to the Supreme Court - which he and the Republicans have ensured is dominated by, well, Republican judges.

Very good chance the Orange Rodent will get the court's nod, postal votes ruled invalid and get another 4 years as the President. Then there'll be years of appeals and counter appeals and all the while he'll get to hide his tax situation and shonky business dealings.

And while all this is going on the gradual implosion of the US will continue. Trump is the bloke to expedite the collapse, it would have slowed under Biden/Democrats.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 04, 2020, 06:58:03 pm
So is he confident about winning the election or confident about going to court?
I didnt understand, it was on the ch 9 news. He was going on about winning this state and that state. He sounded like he was claiming victory. The he said something about predicting it would go to court which I didnt understand. At the end he started ranting about how its a disgrace, an embarrassment to the country and he would take it to court. He said as far as he's concerned, he's already won. So my conclusion is that he is conceding defeat, throwing a wobbly, sooking it up and taking it to court.
Sorry if it all sounds like ramblings, I dont follow US politics, just saw the news report. Trump was right, they are an embarrassment, all 330 odd million of them.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 04, 2020, 07:00:22 pm

He paved the way with accusations of 'cheating & stealing' re postal votes and now reckons he'll take it to the Supreme Court - which he and the Republicans have ensured is dominated by, well, Republican judges.

Very good chance the Orange Rodent will get the court's nod, postal votes ruled invalid and get another 4 years as the President. Then there'll be years of appeals and counter appeals and all the while he'll get to hide his tax situation and shonky business dealings.

And while all this is going on the gradual implosion of the US will continue. Trump is the bloke to expedite the collapse, it would have slowed under Biden/Democrats.

Cheers Baggers, got it now, makes sense.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 04, 2020, 07:09:03 pm
How can Biden be confident with those numbers?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 04, 2020, 07:12:05 pm
Bad outcome
No winners.
Everybody loses. ::)  :(
A 'poisoned chalice'  to the one who eventually ends up with top job.

I'm very VERY uncomfortable with both Biden and Trump's comments in the last hour.  Especially Trump.  His humility (or lack thereof) was poor.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 04, 2020, 07:13:14 pm
How can Biden be confident with those numbers?

My son explained it thus. Lots of postal votes, many more than anticipated, and it will take a while to count. Trump supposedly told his supporters not to use postal votes because it's corrupt. dodgy etc., so the theory is that his supporters obeyed him and thus there's an expectation that the postal votes may be in favour of the Democrats. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 04, 2020, 07:29:53 pm
I'm very VERY uncomfortable with both Biden and Trump's comments in the last hour.  Especially Trump.  His humility (or lack thereof) was poor.


Like a couple of buzzards squabbling over and pecking at a slowly dying carcass.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 04, 2020, 07:49:05 pm
Their entire voting system is a bloody joke.  NO checks and balances
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 04, 2020, 08:25:34 pm
Their entire voting system is a bloody joke.  NO checks and balances
American System is confusing as is all this legal challenge stuff...you just cant see the country being run properly without a clear
mandate for either main party.
You just worry about the flow on effects down here in Australia with China really going hard at us now in a trade war, if Trump wins they are going to go ballistic...Putin must be loving all this chaos.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Blues15 on November 04, 2020, 08:52:02 pm
It’s all corrupt Russia can interfere with the 2016 elections and nothing gets done about that yet he wants to take legal action against legitimate postal votes from the American people because it’s allegedly in Biden’s favour.

The scary thing is he, the leader of the “free world” is happy to tear apart his own country and cause such a divide who knows what will be installed for the rest of the world if he does win again.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 04, 2020, 09:00:24 pm
It's only in the last few years I've worked out their system.  Unbelievably complicated
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 04, 2020, 10:06:24 pm
You should do what I do: tune out until the votes are fully counted.

We all love to watch the ebbs and flows of a footy match. That’s fun. Watching the twists and turns of an election ain’t.

If Trump wins, then maybe it might be time for Australia to put a bit of distance between it and Trump on China. There was an article in The Age by a former diplomat (maybe Ambassador?) to China who thinks we should have been far more agile in our relationship with China and we should have been attempting engagement rather than containment. The problem is that Trump won’t do us any favours just because we’re an ally. And China is only going to grow stronger in Asia.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 05, 2020, 07:51:37 am
As far as I can read the runes I see a Biden win as postal votes are counted and a Trump court challenge,  unless the GOP rein him in and possibly  ultimately get rid of him. God knows what will go down then.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 05, 2020, 08:02:05 am
As far as I can read the runes I see a Biden win as postal votes are counted and a Trump court challenge,  unless the GOP rein him in and possibly  ultimately get rid of him. God knows what will go down then.
So it seems Trumps willingness to incite violence as a measure to keep Democratic voters away from the polls has failed, they just voted early and by post! :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 05, 2020, 08:05:02 am
You just worry about the flow on effects down here in Australia with China really going hard at us now in a trade war, if Trump wins they are going to go ballistic...Putin must be loving all this chaos.
Putin might contribute to the chaos but his country is broke, nothing he does helps that, although his wealthy mates might profit.

His tactic is akin to slowing all the faster cars in a race so he can keep up in a Lada Niva!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 05, 2020, 08:09:22 am
So it seems Trumps willingness to incite violence as a measure to keep Democratic voters away from the polls has failed, they just voted early and by post! :o

Maybe but postal voting apparently was up because of Covid. Don't know how that could favour one party over the other.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 05, 2020, 08:10:07 am
What kind of democracy makes it hard for folk to vote, then doesn’t count all votes cast?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 05, 2020, 08:11:07 am
What kind of democracy makes it hard for folk to vote, then doesn’t count all votes cast?

Democracy?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 05, 2020, 08:11:27 am
So it seems Trumps willingness to incite violence as a measure to keep Democratic voters away from the polls has failed, they just voted early and by post! :o

And voted often LP?  ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 05, 2020, 08:18:08 am
Maybe but postal voting apparently was up because of Covid. Don't know how that could favour one party over the other.
More conservative voters tend to vote early, I believe it is a well known trend that is global.

The problem in the US, as I have heard it reported, is that each state runs it's own counting agenda, so Red states count the votes that favour an early Red lead, and Blue states count the votes that favour an early Blue lead. Neither side does anything at a Federal level to address it because they fear disadvantaging themselves, they want the flexibility to flip!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 05, 2020, 08:20:58 am
Humanity is facing its worst ever crisis, that will make covid look like nothing in the long term, and the only party that takes this issue even vaguely seriously, has up to now not received a single electoral vote. A big fat zero for the Greens in the US election.

Well done America.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 05, 2020, 08:25:18 am
And voted often LP?  ;)
I'm not sure there is any clear evidence of voter fraud favouring one side or the other, but the volume of fraud is fairly consistent so the bigger the turn out the less relevant fraud becomes.

Anyway, it's a very very small percentage, and it doesn't justify ignoring millions of legitimate votes to capture a handful of fraudulent votes.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 05, 2020, 08:30:55 am
Humanity is facing its worst ever crisis, that will make covid look like nothing in the long term, and the only party that takes this issue even vaguely seriously, has up to now not received a single electoral vote. A big fat zero for the Greens in the US election.

Well done America.
Some regions still teach the Bible instead of evolution, and US kids think dinosaurs and men roamed the earth at the same time, and many Americans think Hawaii is a foreign country!

Of course, I'll offend some Americans with that post, but if you take offence do something about these issues in your own country before telling Europe or China what to do!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 05, 2020, 09:04:44 am
Maybe but postal voting apparently was up because of Covid. Don't know how that could favour one party over the other.

Democrats would have been more likely to vote early by post.
They would have wanted to avoid the crowds on polling day.

Biden will win the vote.
There won't be enough problems with the postals  to cause that result to be overturned.
Trump has every right to challenge any issues, but at the end of the day even a loaded court system must apply the laws as set down.

My question is the same as it's been for sometime.
Why is this even a contest?
Trump has been a poor and divisive president who appears more concerned with personal promotion than the good of his nation.
Some of his comments and actions give the impression of someone with no idea.
He is rude and arrogant...often resorting to personal abuse of his opponents.
He comes across as an all around nasty fellow.

So why are we still sorting out results?
Why have only a handful of states flipped?
Why have 48% of the eligible population voted for him?
More than 67 million voters!
Trump's brought out more folks to vote for him than in 2016
They're not all right wing, nut job, deplorables.
Why in the midst of a global pandemic, which he seems by all measures to have handled pretty incompetently, is he still so close?
It would also seem that results in the Downticket races haven't been influenced to any great extent by Trump's tenure.
 
Trump is either an 'evil genius' or the opposition are pretty hopeless.
Doesn't bode well for their performance in government.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 05, 2020, 09:06:49 am
I'm not sure there is any clear evidence of voter fraud favouring one side or the other, but the volume of fraud is fairly consistent so the bigger the turn out the less relevant fraud becomes.

Anyway, it's a very very small percentage, and it doesn't justify ignoring millions of legitimate votes to capture a few handful of fraudulent votes.

Just referencing the old mantra “vote early and vote often” LP.  I reckon that the POTUS’s claims of voter fraud are just the well-rehearsed rhetoric of an incoherent incompetent who is terrified of the consequences of losing.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 05, 2020, 09:09:28 am
Maybe but postal voting apparently was up because of Covid. Don't know how that could favour one party over the other.

Democrats would have been more likely to vote early by post.
They would have wanted to avoid the crowds on polling day.
Their parties message has always been a much more cautious one.

Biden will win the vote.
There won't be enough problems with the postals  to cause that result to be overturned.
Trump has every right to challenge any issues, but at the end of the day even a loaded court system must apply the laws as set down.

My question is the same as it's been for some time.
Why is this even a contest?
Trump has been a poor and divisive president who appears more concerned with personal promotion than the good of his nation.
Some of his comments and actions give the impression of someone with no idea.
He is rude and arrogant...often resulting to personal abuse of his opponents.
He's comes across as an all around nasty fellow.

So why are we still sorting out results.
Why have only a handful of states flipped.
Why have 48% of the eligible population voted for him.
More than 67 million voters
Trump's brought out more folks to vote for him than in 2016
They're not all right wing, nut job, deplorables.
Why in the midst of a global pandemic, which he seems by all measures to have handled pretty incompetently, is he still so close.
It would also seem that results in the Downticket races haven't been influenced to any great extent by Trump's tenure.
 
Trump is either an 'evil genius' or the opposition is pretty hopeless.
Doesn't bode well for their performance in government.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Professer E on November 05, 2020, 10:00:39 am
US and Britain in political disarray, Europe paralysed by Covid.... Meanwhile china moving everywhere on the sly.  Last week coal,  yesterday crayfish and wine, tomorrow who knows,  wheat?   Iron ore? A hell of a trade war is on people, they're trying to bankrupt us, you can't tell me it's all "coincidence".

Then again,  some might say so what,  nether us not the planet needs the millions of tonnes of sh1t, low grade consumer goods  we import from that mob anyway.  Start with at your local Bunnings people.  If it says "made in the PRC" on the box,  put it down and walk away.  There are always alternatives.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 05, 2020, 10:07:03 am
Praying Arizona and Nevada carry Biden over the line. If it comes down to Pennsylvania, there’ll be no end of ratf*cking going on behind the scenes.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 05, 2020, 10:38:40 am
Praying Arizona and Nevada carry Biden over the line. If it comes down to Pennsylvania, there’ll be no end of ratf*cking going on behind the scenes.

It's over.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 05, 2020, 10:40:45 am
Just referencing the old mantra “vote early and vote often” LP.  I reckon that the POTUS’s claims of voter fraud are just the well-rehearsed rhetoric of an incoherent incompetent who is terrified of the consequences of losing.
@DJC‍ , I don't think there will be significant political consequences of losing, the politicians are way too savvy to shoot themselves in the foot by making laws that could turn against them in the future.

But the lack of political action won't help Trump in avoiding commercial consequences, he's been hiding from debtors using the Presidency as cover for many years now, they'll be after him now!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 05, 2020, 10:48:30 am
US and Britain in political disarray, Europe paralysed by Covid.... Meanwhile china moving everywhere on the sly.  Last week coal,  yesterday crayfish and wine, tomorrow who knows,  wheat?  Iron ore? A hell of a trade war is on people, they're trying to bankrupt us, you can't tell me it's all "coincidence".

Then again,  some might say so what,  nether us not the planet needs the millions of tonnes of sh1t, low grade consumer goods  we import from that mob anyway.  Start with at your local Bunnings people.  If it says "made in the PRC" on the box,  put it down and walk away.  There are always alternatives.
Yes, but we build glorious large and luxurious domestic dog boxes that fall apart within a decade. When you look into it and pursue quality over quantity and speed, the cost difference is significant and I doubt the current social culture will accept it.

But it's foolish to believe the low prices and acceptance of low quality will remain, a sign of this is a burgeoning distrust of Made in China within China itself. While lots of Made in Australia or Made in Japan items get exported at a significantly high unit price ironically to China, domestic shelves are filled with substandard Made in China or Taiwan alternatives. The same applies to the oil and fuel we export, we sell our good stuff at a premium, and buy and supply rubbish locally gouging the consumer on price because our gutless politicians are addicted to growth!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 05, 2020, 11:04:19 am
Some regions still teach the Bible instead of evolution, and US kids think dinosaurs and men roamed the earth at the same time, and many Americans think Hawaii is a foreign country!

Of course, I'll offend some Americans with that post, but if you take offence do something about these issues in your own country before telling Europe or China what to do!

There are millions of Yanks who believe The Flintstones is a documentary.  ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 05, 2020, 11:09:47 am
There are millions of Yanks who believe The Flintstones is a documentary.  ;)
Yes a funny joke, ................... or is it? :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 05, 2020, 11:13:10 am
Yes, the election is still undecided, but do we know enough to reflect on whether the Democrats pulled the right rein in selecting Biden?

He has largely delivered what he promised: he won back Michigan and Wisconsin to rebuild the blue wall in the Rust belt and presumably statistical analysis after the election will confirm he was strong with older black voters.

But would another candidate have performed more strongly? After all, it’s pretty shocking that Trump wasn’t blown out of the water given how consistently dangerous and incompetent he has been. Would there have been a blue wave if Bernie had been the challenger?

In Florida, there’s a suggestion that Trump’s attacks on Biden for being a socialist worked. Cuban Americans and Latinos who fled socialist countries such as Venezuela almost have a Pavlovian response to the word “socialist”. If the attack worked against Biden, it’s safe to say it would have worked against Bernie! But maybe Bernie would have appealed to the blue collar workers as much as if not more than Biden. The problem is that the whole campaign would have been Trump smearing Bernie as a communist and it appears from the results so far in this election that the USA is a lot more conservative than we might have thought. Unless progressives failed to turn out for Biden, maybe Bernie wouldn’t have been able to improve on Biden’s vote.

I had a soft spot for Elizabeth Warren as she quite literally had a plan for everything. But I suspect Trump would have chewed her up and spat her out. She fell right into the “Pocahontas” attack. All she had to say is that she had simply passed on family legend that she had a Native American ancestor. Instead, she released an inconclusive DNA test to try to show the claim was true. Who does that?

The interesting “what if” is Pete Buttigeig. Fox News has had him on as a recurring guest to fill the role as “live kill” for rightwing hosts and guests. But he unexpectedly held his own. He is undeniably eloquent. You’d expect as a gay man that he’d have provoked a harsh response from the religious right but he seems to be able to neutralise that reaction. It’s not as though he didn’t have experience doing so as he’s from Indiana. He was mayor of South Bend while Mike Pence was governor. Maybe he’ll be 1 to watch in the future and he may well be a key Cabinet member under Biden if he wins.

Perhaps in the wash up we’ll find that Covid hampered the Democrat ground game. The lack of personal contact with the public may have been critical and may have been just as problematic if another candidate had been put forward.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 05, 2020, 11:20:58 am
In Florida, there’s a suggestion that Trump’s attacks on Biden for being a socialist worked. Cuban Americans and Latinos who fled socialist countries such as Venezuela almost have a Pavlovian response to the word “socialist”. If the attack worked against Biden, it’s safe to say it would have worked against Bernie! But maybe Bernie would have appealed to the blue collar workers as much as if not more than Biden. The problem is that the whole campaign would have been Trump smearing Bernie as a communist and it appears from the results so far in this election that the USA is a lot more conservative than we might have thought. Unless progressives failed to turn out for Biden, maybe Bernie wouldn’t have been able to improve on Biden’s vote.
I've heard this from many sources in the scientific community, the concept that Western cultures in particularly the USA is starting to resemble totalitarian regimes they fled. But interestingly they actually see Trump as the worst example of it, which seems somewhat ironic given his supporters rally against the concept of socialism and label his opponents as socialist. Yet to former citizen's of socialist states apparently Trump's disinformation campaign closely resemble how old world Soviet block states use to function in controlling the social discourse, so they find it very disturbing, neighbourhoods watching neighbourhoods, you can be free but only the accepted version of free!

USA society is so very introspective, I presume that is how Trump gets away with it.

The difference between democracy and socialism is fag paper thin!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 05, 2020, 11:23:19 am
This election has been about Trump and turned into a popularity contest......Biden isnt every Democrats idea of a President so I think he was always going to struggle in a one on one vs Trump.
However Biden will win as Trumps popularity has waned more than Bidens has increased IMO...
Its more about the aftermath now and can Biden run the country and actually get any major change legislation passed..
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 05, 2020, 11:28:02 am
This election has been about Trump and turned into a popularity contest......Biden isnt every Democrats idea of a President so I think he was always going to struggle in a one on one vs Trump.
However Biden will win as Trumps popularity has waned more than Bidens has increased IMO...
Its more about the aftermath now and can Biden run the country and actually get any major change legislation passed..
Yes, they tried hard to shut Trump up but couldn't, the more he speaks the bigger the hole he digs, his own mouth is his biggest weakness and I think we saw that last night!

The new trend is politics in this woke era seems analogous to, "Say nothing and you can't be wrong, and all opinions are equal even if they are ridiculous!"

Finally, what America describes as a poll is more analogous to a weathervane than a scientific survey, most of the reported stuff is made up just like Trumps content!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 05, 2020, 11:35:04 am
This election has been about Trump and turned into a popularity contest......Biden isnt every Democrats idea of a President so I think he was always going to struggle in a one on one vs Trump.
However Biden will win as Trumps popularity has waned more than Bidens has increased IMO...
Its more about the aftermath now and can Biden run the country and actually get any major change legislation passed..

Interestingly EB Trump gained 63 million popular votes in 2016 (v Hillary 65.8 ) and in 2020 so far 68.2 million (v Biden 71.5). More people have voted this year, but maybe the underlying sentiments have not changed that much?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 05, 2020, 11:42:42 am
I don’t fancy Biden’s chances of getting anything through the Senate. Mitch McConnell engaged in total opposition for the last 6 years of Obama’s time and the GOP benefitted from it. Why wouldn’t he repeat the same plan?

The GOP Senators have also showed that they don’t care if their hypocrisy shows (e.g. Lindsay Graham’s assertion that the Senate shouldn’t consider a Supreme Court nomination in the last year of a President’s term) . And more importantly, they weren’t punished for their hypocrisy.

Good odds the Senate will suddenly realise there’s a deficit and will demand stringent austerity, thus blocking any attempt to build infrastructure. There will be continual Senate hearings into the slightest alleged ethical breach. And MBB might get a 4 year Senate investigation into Hunter Biden.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 05, 2020, 11:46:04 am
Interestingly EB Trump gained 63 million popular votes in 2016 (v Hillary 65.8 ) and in 2020 so far 68.2 million (v Biden 71.5). More people have voted this year, but maybe the underlying sentiments have not changed that much?
Cookie....You know Trumps hard core supporters will always vote rain hail or shine, but the Democrats supporters are no given to rock up and actually vote and thats been the unknown. It is interesting that Trump has increased his popular vote, I think Biden will win still but its going to be a slog like I said to govern in the madhouse that is the USA.
With the USA stuff, covid back in europe you just want shut the doors and sit in your own back yard but China wont buy our wine, barley or our dirt anymore and the reserve bank are printing fake money we dont have so its no picnic here either.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 05, 2020, 11:55:21 am
@EB

Agree, Biden to win at this stage, but what will Trump do is the big question?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 05, 2020, 12:00:43 pm
@EB

Agree, Biden to win at this stage, but what will Trump do is the big question?
I think Trump will back down from the legal stuff/recounts and the Republicans will look past Trump now to the future.
Biden will inherit a mess that will be hard to fix, a half decent Republican candidate will get in next time IMO providing Trump doesnt feck the system around for a long time with all his threats and BS.
 Trump mafia mate Rudy Giuliani has fronted the media to complain about not being able to sufficiently observe vote counting in parts of Pennsylvania...what does he want to do check each vote personally?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 05, 2020, 12:04:37 pm
My guess is Rudy wanted to be able to take ballot boxes to Roger Stone’s house and count them there.

Reports of protest rallies forming outside vote count centres.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 05, 2020, 12:11:48 pm
Trump is going to burn down the house for not getting his way!

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSCZgsctEmxBpzvvGTdbo1pcL5qSXOUPiNnUA&usqp=CAU)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 05, 2020, 12:13:40 pm
Sooo, if Biden does win, he will spend the next four years pushing sh1t uphill and arguing / fighting instead of getting anything done. Sounds like time, money and effort well spent. Would you like a side serve of blue shyte or red shyte ?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 05, 2020, 01:00:16 pm
Remember that Mitch McConnell’s control isn’t absolute. The most famous example is John McCain breaking ranks and voting against the GOP attempt to repeal Obamacare.

The GOP Senators aren’t a uniform voting block. In ruby red states, very conservative Senators can win easily. But in purple states, GOP candidates have to be more moderate in order to win. An example is Susan Collins in Maine who has pitched herself to voters as an independent voice who votes on principles rather than on party lines. That said, she has pretty much gone along with Trump for fear of his base turning on her. If Biden wins, she’ll be free of that threat and may vote with Democrats on at least some legislation. Another example is Mitt Romney who voted to impeach Trump.

It’s also possible that the 2 Senate spots in Georgia will end up in run-off elections later this year. As long as The GOP only has a small majority, Mitch McConnell will always have to worry about his Senators breaking ranks.

A President can buy off 1 or 2 opposing Senators to push through legislation. Does Senator X want the Army to buy another billion dollars of weaponry manufactured in his State? Does Senator Y want the FBI to move its headquarters to her State? Politics isn’t pretty, but there you go.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 05, 2020, 01:13:37 pm
Mav, I find it hard to get as enthused as you do about the details of all this. I see the Democrats as a Republican lite, and whilst I am normally grateful for mercies both big and small, feeling grateful (as I do) that Trump may be booted out does little to convince me that we are even close to where we should be. Biden winning should become the reference example of a pyrrhic victory IMO. 

It's good having you back. IMO, it's like having our own in-house, American Political correspondent / political analyst.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 05, 2020, 01:18:47 pm
Sooo, if Biden does win, he will spend the next four years pushing sh1t uphill and arguing / fighting instead of getting anything done. Sounds like time, money and effort well spent. Would you like a side serve of blue shyte or red shyte ?

Which flavour of oligarchy would sir like today? 🤪
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 05, 2020, 01:23:24 pm
Paul, I agree with you that this isn’t a great outcome. But we have to remember that the US is a foreign country. We tend to think of it as being like us, but it isn’t. It IS a lot more right wing and we just have to accept that. The problem is that it influences what happens to us. For instance, Trump’s anti-mask stance has no doubt inspired anti-maskers in Oz. And Trump’s transactional relationships with other countries have created problems for us. Just having someone moderate and mentally stable in the White House will improve things for us.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 05, 2020, 01:24:05 pm
I just finished listening to ABC journalist interviewing US Voters who are based in Sydney.

There was one US citizen who voted for Kanye West, seriously voted for him not just taking the piss with the journalist! This voter is a person of apparently considerable marketable technical skills and knowledge, that we have expensively imported to work here as a replacement for local talent!

God Bless America!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 05, 2020, 01:31:49 pm
@DJC‍ , I don't think there will be significant political consequences of losing, the politicians are way too savvy to shoot themselves in the foot by making laws that could turn against them in the future.

But the lack of political action won't help Trump in avoiding commercial consequences, he's been hiding from debtors using the Presidency as cover for many years now, they'll be after him now!

It's not the political classes that the POTUS is apparently worried about, apart from several state prosecutors, etc.  It's more about the folk to whom he owes $1B, the regulators' responses to the exposure of his business dealings, and folk (mainly women) that he has wronged.

See: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/17/politics/trump-election-legal-reckoning/index.html
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 05, 2020, 01:41:49 pm
Sooo, if Biden does win, he will spend the next four years pushing sh1t uphill and arguing / fighting instead of getting anything done. Sounds like time, money and effort well spent. Would you like a side serve of blue shyte or red shyte ?

That depends on whether the Democrats take the Senate.  I think the House of Reps will stay in Democrat hands but the Senate will be tight.

I think Biden won't get much opposition from fellow Democrats and not in the way that Republicans opposed some of the POTUS's  initiatives.  Voting on party lines isn't really a thing in the USA, it's more about what's popular with one's constituents. Of course, Biden still has to win.

The other side of the coin is that a re-elected POTUS may have to deal with a hostile Senate and House of Reps.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 05, 2020, 01:42:06 pm
For weeks and months Trump has been telling the world postal voting is corrupt and fraudulent, casting doubts about the postal voting process, firstly because postal votes favour democrats/conservatives, secondly because he wanted to lay the groundwork for challenging if things didn't go his way.

It seems mostly it was his own supporters that believed him and they didn't vote postal, which left Biden with a disproportionate amount of postal vote support!

Trump's overt negativity has come back to bite him on the ass!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 05, 2020, 01:52:01 pm
One of the more appalling things about this election was Trump’s deliberate attempt to cripple the US Postal Service in order to ensure that all postal votes wouldn’t be counted. He appointed one of his donors to run it, Lewis DeJoy, who set about removing vote dropboxes and dismantling mail distribution machinery. A judge had ordered the USPS to conduct sweeps to locate 300,000 missing postal votes but the USPS failed to do so. It’s a scandal that Trump was able to do this out in the open.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 05, 2020, 01:55:52 pm
Paul, I agree with you that this isn’t a great outcome. But we have to remember that the US is a foreign country. We tend to think of it as being like us, but it isn’t. It IS a lot more right wing and we just have to accept that. The problem is that it influences what happens to us. For instance, Trump’s anti-mask stance has no doubt inspired anti-maskers in Oz. And Trump’s transactional relationships with other countries have created problems for us. Just having someone moderate and mentally stable in the White House will improve things for us.

I agree, but to me this last sentence highlights how vacuous this has become. This election was IMO, basically a referendum on Trump, and when you cut to the chase, Biden's main platform was "I'm not Trump." How far that country has fallen...........
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 05, 2020, 01:57:27 pm
One of the more appalling things about this election was Trump’s deliberate attempt to cripple the US Postal Service in order to ensure that all postal votes wouldn’t be counted. He appointed one of his donors to run it, Lewis DeJoy, who set about removing vote dropboxes and dismantling mail distribution machinery. A judge had ordered the USPS to conduct sweeps to locate 300,000 missing postal votes but the USPS failed to do so. It’s a scandal that Trump was able to do this out in the open.

Yes, my son told me about this last night. There's other shenanigans as well.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: dodge on November 05, 2020, 02:01:27 pm
Heard an interview this morning with a Republican senator (not sure if a current one).  He said how much any sitting Republican is scared stupid of Trump and won't do anything to cross him, as the consequences are too great, citing Mitt Romney as an example.

He then implied that with Trump gone and Biden in, the two parties might be more of a chance to work together a little more constructively.  Everyone can only hope!

This would then lead to the Republicans being able to nominate a more moderate candidate for next election, which may help bring a more unified country.  (Democrats as well!)

I had a zoom with a philanthropic org this morning.  They are certainly Republican, but not necessarily Trump.  There is a lot of uncertainty with Biden and how things are going to pan out.  They may be jumping at shadows with some of their actions, but that is what uncertainty brings.





Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 05, 2020, 02:38:39 pm
Theres a lot of crap slung at Donald, and people who support him.

As someone who finds this election completely hilarious irrespective of outcome, I find it hilarious that they resort to attacking his personality, and the way he talks (which ironically he draws ire for doing to Biden).

Its very play the man, not the way he played the role.

Either way the only thing I was thinking was likely to occur was a split decision.

What I find interesting is how they have declared Biden a winner in some states where the voting seems to be unfinished?

I.e.  Arizona.  On a map I am looking at it shows 86% reporting (as of about 2:30pm) and Biden has 51% of the vote vs Trumps (this discrepency has increased only recently) and shows Trump at 48%.

Less than 100k votes split the difference, and we still have 15% unaccounted for (if they vote at all).  Declaring a winner, seems to be, crowing early.

To show my bipartisan nature.  the inverse is true in Texas although Trump has a 6% lead there and has been given the win. 

Also, I see Nevada and Georgia as the only states in real dispute.  Nevada has Biden at .6 ahead, so that one is the only real state outstanding, but the aforementioned make up a large portion of seats.

Who knows.  I could have it wrong.  I know nothing about American politics, but I do know that although from the outside looking in a Trump government looks bad, I think there are some things that have been handled way better from a war mongering perspective than others.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 05, 2020, 02:45:45 pm
I don't find the election (or American politics in general) even remotely hilarious. They're taking the planet down with them on a number of fronts.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 05, 2020, 02:47:52 pm
I suppose a lot of predictions are based on historical trends and statistical averages, nothing prevents something new happening but the rate of swing is very well known on a per-vote basis, so when they have counted 70% or 80% of votes the trend rarely deviates greatly, at least without some human interference.

Also, ignoring how many have actually voted, the ratio of voting trends tend to be fixed for certain demographics, to see a change we might have to see something really weird happen like 100000 supporters of a particular candidate voted early by mail because this week they were all attending a conference that meant they couldn't be there to vote in person. Ironically, the US is possibly a more likely place for this to occur than many other countries.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 05, 2020, 02:57:19 pm
Thryleon, if we set the 2 Bushes aside, who were the warmongering Presidents in the post-Vietnam War era?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 05, 2020, 03:16:02 pm
In shattering news to the nation Kanye West has conceded defeat and said that he wont be the next president of the USA....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 05, 2020, 03:44:23 pm
Thryleon, if we set the 2 Bushes aside, who were the warmongering Presidents in the post-Vietnam War era?

The troops have been going that way for years.  Trump has brokered a peace deal (albeit very flimsy).

Its like comparing apples and oranges (pardon the pun).

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 05, 2020, 04:01:19 pm
I don’t understand your post.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 05, 2020, 04:13:09 pm
A demonstration is going on outside the Maricopa County Election Department in Phoenix Arizona. Protesters with long guns and semi-automatic weapons among the crowd. News crews are being kicked out of the building now. The irony is that if the Trump protestors were able to stop the count, Biden would win the state.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 05, 2020, 04:45:09 pm
A demonstration is going on outside the Maricopa County Election Department in Phoenix Arizona. Protesters with long guns and semi-automatic weapons among the crowd. News crews are being kicked out of the building now. The irony is that if the Trump protestors were able to stop the count, Biden would win the state.
Trump needs the count ratified before he can call for a re-count, I suppose it doesn't matter how it ends for him as long as it is sooner rather than later.

PS; Associate posted some photos of the Trump protestors, no wonder the local traders have boarded up the shop fronts, serious nutters in that crowd, they look like they are about to go postal! Bad choice of words, too soon? :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 05, 2020, 06:38:53 pm
Bad choice of words, too soon? :o

Probably not.
It only takes one who is so wound up to cause a fair degree of grief....and I suspect there will be a few in that basket.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 05, 2020, 07:59:11 pm
Trump needs the count ratified before he can call for a re-count, I suppose it doesn't matter how it ends for him as long as it is sooner rather than later.

PS; Associate posted some photos of the Trump protestors, no wonder the local traders have boarded up the shop fronts, serious nutters in that crowd, they look like they are about to go postal! Bad choice of words, too soon? :o

Nuh... after all, where did the term, 'go postal' originate from? The Orange Rodent's supporters are already creating mayhem... good that they're being reported as 'Trump Supporters...'
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Tragic on November 05, 2020, 09:02:17 pm
This US election is a bit like a good test match.  One of my kids even asked me who was winning yesterday.  It was only the 2nd session on day 1 fer crying out loud...
 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on November 05, 2020, 09:26:57 pm
Probably says something about Trade Week (yawn.....), but the US election is far more riveting.....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 05, 2020, 09:59:53 pm
I was just thinking that too, Tonyo. I remember listening to one of the early trade weeks covered by SEN - 3 days of rumours but nothing happened.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 06, 2020, 10:10:04 am
I suspect most of us feel the US Electoral process is a bit of a dog's breakfast.

One of the most concerning things in terms of stability is the gap between the vote count ending and the inauguration of the incoming President.
A 'wounded' Donald Trump is President for the rest of this month, all of December and most of January.
Normally it's a time for a tidy-up and preparing briefings for the incoming administration.
This isn't a normal President.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 06, 2020, 10:17:01 am
For those of you who want to know how this US Election situation arose, have a listen to this podcast keeping in mind it was published weeks before the election result, and produce over many months prior to election day!

https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/what-if

It's scary how predictable the US Electoral College system is, and it sort of highlights how it can be so easily manipulated by 3rd parties. I wish I had posted the link here before election day, but I suppose hindsight is everything, but keep in mind this podcast was a prediction of this particular outcome!

One of the show producers has left the organisation that made it many months ago, it shows you how far in advance this podcast made in model of behaviour. Of course, some will claim Trump and Biden are acting in knowledge of the game scenario used in the reported model, not in difference to it!

We should tip our lids to the Radiolab crew, this is what good reporting use to be like before Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Trump!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 06, 2020, 11:09:04 am
Mad as a cut snake! 😳
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 06, 2020, 12:05:34 pm
I suspect most of us feel the US Electoral process is a bit of a dog's breakfast.

One of the most concerning things in terms of stability is the gap between the vote count ending and the inauguration of the incoming President.
A 'wounded' Donald Trump is President for the rest of this month, all of December and most of January.
Normally it's a time for a tidy-up and preparing briefings for the incoming administration.
This isn't a normal President.
That is how the lame duck session has been used recently. But the original reason for it was to allow firstly the Electoral College and then Congress to assemble at a time when the horse was the fastest mode of transport. In a large country that was keen to expand, it was necessary to allow a lot of time for travel. Originally, Inauguration Day occurred in April!

The extended lame duck period is a relic of the past and should be ditched. If the Electoral College were abolished and the President were to be elected solely on the nationwide popular vote, the President could assume power on certification of results. If some period is required to allow the President Elect to put together a Cabinet, then it should be a small period with a clear caretaker policy enshrined in legislation.

Trump won’t be the first outgoing President to try to salt the fields out of vindictiveness. Trump shows it isn’t sensible to trust that outgoing Presidents will follow a tradition of promoting a smooth transition of power.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 06, 2020, 12:27:41 pm
That is how the lame duck session has been used recently. But the original reason for it was to allow firstly the Electoral College and then Congress to assemble at a time when the horse was the fastest mode of transport. In a large country that was keen to expand, it was necessary to allow a lot of time for travel.

The extended lame duck period is a relic of the past and should be ditched. If the Electoral College were abolished and the President were to be elected solely on the nationwide popular vote, the President would assume power on certification of results.

I guess the problem with simply declaring it on a population vote is similar to the problem we face, and overcome with our electorates and then the PM being determined by the party that wins most of those.
A population only vote would be heavily weighted to the opinions of the folks in the big cities and big states.
We'd all wish "we could be California girls."

The US House and Senate offsets that to some extent and would give some representation to the rural areas but the Presidential race would largely depend on the big population areas.
We've seen it to a large extent in this election where a mass of Red in a state has been cancelled by a small patch of Blue in a major city.

The major problem seems to be that there is such a variation in State 'procedures' and 'rules' in terms of conducting the elections.
I'm also wondering about the level of two-party scrutineering, whether it existed and how that also varied from State to State.
If that was properly in place, Trump's dubious claims will quickly be shot down.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 06, 2020, 12:28:14 pm
Trump won’t be the first outgoing President to try to salt the fields out of vindictiveness. Trump shows it isn’t sensible to trust that outgoing Presidents will follow a tradition of promoting a smooth transition of power.
I've read elsewhere that the moment the election is certified, the keys to the nukes go immediately to Biden, as does command over the military and security intelligence organisations.

In this regard, if Trump fully runs off the rails it is not inconceivable he'll be frog marched out of the Whitehouse.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 06, 2020, 12:51:52 pm
I believe that the Republicans and Democrats have had scrutineers in all vote counts. If they disagree with how a particular ballot will be treated, a neutral arbiter decides. Trump is just lying about secret vote counting. A lot of centres have cameras which enable outsiders to see what’s going on. I think Trump wants his good ‘ol boys to be “poll watchers” intimidating the electoral workers (perhaps while displaying firearms).

I don’t see why country voters should have greater say over the election of presidents than city-dwellers. In Australia, the Prime Minister is elected by the party with a majority of seats in the House of Reps. Each seat represents an electorate of the same population (as far as possible) as any other throughout the country. Country electorates can be many times the geographical size of inner-city electorates as a result. The Senate, on the other hand, gives Tasmanian voters more power than voters in Victoria.




Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on November 06, 2020, 12:58:25 pm


Trump won’t be the first outgoing President to try to salt the fields out of vindictiveness. Trump shows it isn’t sensible to trust that outgoing Presidents will follow a tradition of promoting a smooth transition of power.


I've got a feeling the Whitehouse shredding machines will be working overtime before we get to Inauguration day....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 06, 2020, 01:01:03 pm
I've read elsewhere that the moment the election is certified, the keys to the nukes go immediately to Biden, as does command over the military and security intelligence organisations.
AFAIK, that’s not right. The outgoing President controls the White House and usually lives there until 20 Jan. The President Elect is certainly given the same briefings by the security agencies as the incumbent but is expected to stay out of foreign affairs for fear of inconsistent policies being pursued.

PS: IIRC, General Flynn is currently being prosecuted for lying to the FBI about phoning the Russian Ambassador about US foreign policy after Trump had already tapped him to be his National Security Adviser upon his inauguration. He wanted to deny it because he knew he shouldn’t have made the call.

Edit: https://www.businessinsider.com.au/michael-flynn-sergey-kislyak-transcript-december-2016-phone-call-2020-5?r=US&IR=T (https://www.businessinsider.com.au/michael-flynn-sergey-kislyak-transcript-december-2016-phone-call-2020-5?r=US&IR=T).
The call was made in December following Obama kicking out Russian embassy staff in retaliation for election interference.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 06, 2020, 01:38:22 pm
I've read elsewhere that the moment the election is certified, the keys to the nukes go immediately to Biden, as does command over the military and security intelligence organisations.

Until Jan 20th (assuming Trump loses) he remains commander in chief.  Only then does the baton pass
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 06, 2020, 02:08:47 pm
Until Jan 20th (assuming Trump loses) he remains commander in chief.  Only then does the baton pass
That is not at all what I have heard at all.

btw., if it is actually deadlocked, and only if it is actually deadlocked, apparently it's hard coded in the constitution that at 1pm on the 6th of the Jan a choice is made by the VP casting his vote. But there is almost zero chance of that happening this year, but the GOP want to paint it as a possible to rally supporters. If they can rally enough support, Trump will call out the National Guard.

As I heard it explained if Biden is declared elected by the commission he immediately has the keys to the nukes and control of the military and intelligence services, no question about it. Any power remaining in Trump's hands is therefore limited. The laws were written when horse and carriage was the only means of transport, so the timelines and authorities can be deliberately blurred, but the military have no such issues to deal with, whoever is declared winner is the authority.

Trump is apparently using tactics only tried once before, in the late 1800s to invalidate the vote entirely and have the GOP State Governors choose and send their own Electors.

It seems the residency in the Whitehouse is somewhat decorative if you do not control the military. It's why they have zero fear of Trump going apecrap if he's declared a loser, he has no real power in the lame duck period.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 06, 2020, 02:27:00 pm
LP?

According to the Presidential Succession Act of 1947, Trump would cease to be president on noon of Jan. 20 if Congress does not certify him as the winner, passing his authority as commander in chief of the military to the acting president, the speaker of the House of Representatives.

I'm not discussing hypotheticals of any in betweens, simply the Act.  Pretty clear
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 06, 2020, 02:28:28 pm
LP, Capcom is 100% right. I kind of said the same but less clearly than Capcom did. You can’t have 2 Commanders-in-Chief. Trump owns the Situation Room until 20/1. The Joint Chiefs of Staff report to him. Secretary of Defence Esper is his guy and loses his position only on Inuguration Day. Same is true for DNI Radcliffe and Secretary of State Pompeo. The Ambassadors are all Trump’s guys and gals. How could Biden hope to transact military and diplomatic business when he has no means of commanding the military or the diplomats? What’s he going to do with the nuclear codes when he only has a daily briefing and CNN to inform him about what’s going on in the world?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 06, 2020, 02:44:09 pm
There are constitutional concerns regarding the Succession Act as some think the Constitution didn’t allow Congress to provide for a lawmaker to take control of the administrative arm of the US Government. This argument suggests that only cabinet members should be in the line of succession after the President and Vice President. This would mean Secretary of State Pompeo would be next in line. But what happens on 20 January when Cabinet Secretaries lose their positions automatically? This is just another example of the inadequacies of the Constitution if you strip away the conventions that make it work and have a Supreme Court that likes to hold seances to figure out what a bunch of 18th Century dudes were thinking.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 06, 2020, 02:53:38 pm
The new Congress formally begins on Jan 3rd, the date for the Inauguration is somewhat arbitrary.

"The Process" as historically implemented is complicated because things do not happen as precedents would suggest. The Trump tactic to try and remove faith in the popular vote and bring in Governor chosen Electors initiates the 12th Amendment, which unless there is some tactical change in the interim requires a joint sitting of the house on the 6th of Jan with a decision at 1pm. But that is 3 days after the new Congress.

If the Congress appears corrupt or is unable to make a decision, any disquiet from the public brings the Insurrection Act into play, if triggers are meet it allows the use of the US military against US citizens. Apparently it has happened before.

It seems that the ultimate power in the Lame Duck Phase sits with the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and they can somewhat arbitrarily decide who gets the keys to the nukes. The consensus is that the Joint Chiefs are unlikely to move against the popular vote if Biden has already been declared the winner. Apparently there is a legal precedent going back to the Civil War, which was delayed by the Supreme Court when they ruled going to war during the lame duck phase was illegal, in that bipartisan support was needed and wasn't available. So while the constitutions dates and times are hard written, the consensus is that the military would never act otherwise no matter what Trump wants. Jan 20th is the very very latest date for a decisive decision, in the interim Trump is likely to need bipartisan support from Biden to do anything in lunacy!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 06, 2020, 03:04:50 pm
There are scenarios where Congress might have to decide who should become President, so it has to be in place before Inauguration Day. For instance, if Biden wins Georgia but Trump wins the other States, both will have 269 Electoral College votes and the House of Representatives will decide the election. Unfortunately, Trump would almost certainly win in that scenario.

Another scenario is that Pennsylvania goes to Biden and is the only State that takes him to 270 Electoral College votes. If the Pennsylvania legislature claims electoral fraud, it could send its own pro-Trump slate of electors to the Electoral College. In all likelihood, that would send it to the new Congress to decide.

Of course, there’s now no  good reason for delaying the sitting of the new Congress until the New Year.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 06, 2020, 03:16:02 pm
I suppose I summarise this complexity, as "Hardly a democracy!"
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 07, 2020, 09:31:08 am
As more votes roll in it seems the greater and more comfortable Biden's final margin will be.
That's in the best interests of America
The larger that is, the more likely a meltdown can be avoided.
Trump will continue to fire-up his hard-core supporters but without the energy of a result that can be overturned the fire may soon go out.

More moderate Republicans, especially lawmakers , will now need to reposition themselves with an eye to the future.
There are mid-term elections only 2 years away.
That's not a huge amount of time to carry out repairs.
There will be a concerted effort 'to take back the party' and rid itself of the Trump influence.
That could be a bit of a turbulent and interesting time as forces on the far right will be very resistant.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 07, 2020, 09:56:30 am
As more votes roll in it seems the greater and more comfortable Biden's final margin will be.
That's in the best interests of America
The larger that is, the more likely a meltdown can be avoided.
Trump will continue to fire-up his hard-core supporters but without the energy of a result that can be overturned the fire may soon go out.

More moderate Republicans, especially lawmakers , will now need to reposition themselves with an eye to the future.
There are mid-term elections only 2 years away.
That's not a huge amount of time to carry out repairs.
There will be a concerted effort 'to take back the party' and rid itself of the Trump influence.
That could be a bit of a turbulent and interesting time as forces on the far right will be very resistant.

It’s hard to know what to expect Lods.  For many supporters of the POTUS, the larger Biden’s winning margin is just means that the electoral fraud was greater.  However, it’s good to see some senior Republicans having a crack at the POTUS for trashing America’s system of democracy.  That’s exactly the outcome that foreign government meddling is intended to achieve so Putin, Rouhani, etc will be very happy with the POTUS’s spoilt child behaviour.

I learnt last night that, at least in some states, the Governor can direct their electoral college voters to vote for the candidate other the one who won the state ballot  :o

It is a strange system.  Dropping the colleges for direct election of the president would be a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 07, 2020, 10:36:18 am
We really won't know the extent of any reaction until the result is declared.
That may be the trigger for some of the more aggressive responses.
The more Republican leaders that distance themselves from Trump's comments and 'stay put' stance the better.

I cant see any change of the system from the Electoral college to a popular vote in the near future so it's not worth spending too much time thinking it might occur.
The college system generally delivers the same result anyway.
There may be some push though to standardise rules and procedures across the states.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 07, 2020, 10:42:24 am
More moderate Republicans, especially lawmakers , will now need to reposition themselves with an eye to the future.
There are mid-term elections only 2 years away.
That's not a huge amount of time to carry out repairs.
There will be a concerted effort 'to take back the party' and rid itself of the Trump influence.
That could be a bit of a turbulent and interesting time as forces on the far right will be very resistant.
Perhaps, Lods. I hope so. A contrary school of thought is that Trump might lose but he has dragged a lot of vulnerable down ballot Republicans across the line by generating huge turnout (the 2nd highest in history, beaten only by Biden). As a result, the GOP has held on to the Senate, flipped some House seats, preserved Republican State legislatures etc. etc. It may be that Republicans in Congress are grateful to Trump. If Trump keeps floating a run for President in 2024, Trump may well preserve his base and be able to punish Republicans who reject him. Add to this that he may well build his own media presence (possibly setting up a Trump media entity), Republicans will be hesitant to cross him. As the old saying goes, don’t laugh at the crocodile until you’re over the bridge.

Did anyone see the story on the news.com.au site that Putin may be forced to retire because of Parkinson’s? If true, wow!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 07, 2020, 11:00:44 am
Did anyone see the story on the news.com.au site that Putin may be forced to retire because of Parkinson’s? If true, wow!

Yep, I saw that.  Will be fascinating to see how that develops and on all fronts.  Winds of political change are at an all time high, certainly in recent times
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on November 07, 2020, 02:18:38 pm
Yep, I saw that.  Will be fascinating to see how that develops and on all fronts.  Winds of political change are at an all time high, certainly in recent times
Meh, another scum bucket will just step in.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 07, 2020, 02:24:36 pm
Interesting thoughts from 1 commentator. Mitch McConnell wouldn’t even have to think if he were given a choice of undermining democracy or losing the Senate majority. To secure the Senate majority, he needs 1 and peferably both of the Senate runoff elections in Georgia to go in favour of the GOP. Turnout was massive in Georgia as it was everywhere else but will Republican turnout collapse when the runoff elections are held in the New Year? McConnell desperately needs Trump to turn out his base to avoid this.

If GOP Senators slap Trump down for attacking the vote without any evidence, Trump may fixate on betrayal by Republicans rather than those nasty Democrats. He may seek revenge by withholding his support from Purdue and Loeffler. He might even tell his base not to bother to vote. On the other hand, if the GOP supports his efforts to undo his loss, he may believe he has a chance of staying in power and he’d want to ensure the Republicans pad their Senate majority. At the very least, they could keep Trump engaged rather than petulantly staying on the golf course at Maralago. We all know he loves a rally and that would help McConnell.

If this analysis is correct, forget about the GOP talking Trump down from his rampage. They want him to maintain the rage.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 07, 2020, 02:58:13 pm
I guess the problem for that scenario is that it only works if all those Georgia Republican voters want Trump to keep fighting.

I suspect there are probably many who voted for Trump who will now be thinking that it's time to let it go.
That's certainly a message coming from some of the prominent  Republicans.
Continuing to fight may be counter productive.

It could be a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't situation.
It's doubtful they'll get many Democrats to change their vote
They may get some that didn't vote coming out, but probably not in great numbers.
Some will be turned off by Trump' antics

It's a dilemma.
Keep the rage going, or get some clean air and hope the electorate look to provide a balance to a Democrat President.
But in the latter situation you'll alienate the Trump base.
What you're likely to end up with is a split in opinions that will greatly advantage the Democrats.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 07, 2020, 03:29:14 pm
Did anyone see the story on the news.com.au site that Putin may be forced to retire because of Parkinson’s? If true, wow!
If true he is a dead man walking, the security services won't risk him growing senile and saying something wrong, he'll cop a dose of his own Novichok!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 07, 2020, 03:38:42 pm
It's looking like a Biden heading towards a whitewash victory, my faith in American democracy is partially restored, ............for now!

But there are two short term issues to overcome, Trump has been putting things in place for a long time now to cause insurrection to trigger extreme powers, and to take control the Supreme Court so that he can lawyer up. Both are backup moves for a horrible election failure, a failure they obviously knew was coming.

But this election Victory to Biden is stark, it's definitive, all Biden needs is patience and the US public will do the work for him!

If Trump tries to burn down the house the US public should drag him out of the Whitehouse by his shirt collar, it might even be safer for him to emigrate, wouldn't that be ironic!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 07, 2020, 04:28:53 pm
It's looking like a Biden heading towards a whitewash victory, my faith in American democracy is partially restored, ............for now!

But there are two short term issues to overcome, Trump has been putting things in place for a long time now to cause insurrection to trigger extreme powers, and to take control the Supreme Court so that he can lawyer up. Both are backup moves for a horrible election failure, a failure they obviously knew was coming.

But this election Victory to Biden is stark, it's definitive, all Biden needs is patience and the US public will do the work for him!

If Trump tries to burn down the house the US public should drag him out of the Whitehouse by his shirt collar, it might even be safer for him to emigrate, wouldn't that be ironic!
Senate will be the problem , be either a Republican majority or a deal job with the lesser lights and that never works.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 07, 2020, 05:04:50 pm
Senate will be the problem , be either a Republican majority or a deal job with the lesser lights and that never works.
Maybe, it's not clear yet, and I believe several out of sync elections will make seats available in the early New Year.

On the House, in the last few days I think Biden has found Trump's kryptonite, you just pity him and it leaves Trump powerless and angry. He just gets angry and the lack of response gives him nowhere to go with his usual threats and litigious nature. Somebody who doesn't bite but just communicates how pathetic Trump's circumstance and nature is, leaves Donald with no response, Trump can't handle pity he needs scorn to survive!

Biden is like the parent calmly responding to a kids tantrum, he has picked Trump up, sat him on a knee and talked quietly and calmly to him, before giving him a hug and still saying no! I wonder if this tactic was developed from the profile exposed in the book published by Trump's niece?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 07, 2020, 05:20:18 pm
Biden didn't do anything. Covid (Ultimately China lol) beat Trump.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 07, 2020, 05:46:17 pm
Biden didn't do anything. Covid (Ultimately China lol) beat Trump.
Yes, Donald was very unlucky, very very unlucky, it's so sad, if only things had been different, anyway what can he do, the world goes on, you win some you lose some!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 07, 2020, 06:24:20 pm
Yes, Donald was very unlucky, very very unlucky, it's so sad, if only things had been different, anyway what can he do, the world goes on, you win some you lose some!

If the dems put up a decent candidate they wouldn't have needed a plague.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 07, 2020, 06:41:25 pm
Biden didn't do anything. Covid (Ultimately China lol) beat Trump.

When your opponent is a child, if you're smart then you say and do very little, you let the infant throw the tantrums and say the stupid stuff and they hang themselves. Just chime in with an adult word here and there, that should do it.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 07, 2020, 06:44:16 pm
Rupert will be sacking someone Monday morning. HUN headline of Donald Grump Goes Postal... not News Corp stuff at all. Andrew, Rita and Terry will be furious and in need of urgent therapy.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 07, 2020, 07:22:29 pm
If the dems put up a decent candidate they wouldn't have needed a plague.
If Trump had dealt with the plague, he wouldn’t have needed excuses.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 07, 2020, 07:45:17 pm
When your opponent is a child, if you're smart then you say and do very little, you let the infant throw the tantrums and say the stupid stuff and they hang themselves. Just chime in with an adult word here and there, that should do it.

Whenever the POTUS appears on my TV or devices, and I’m too slow to hit the off button, I can’t help but see him as a large, nappy wearing, blubbering baby that has just spat his dummy.

Biden isn’t particularly inspiring, and his speech impediment doesn’t help, but he is articulate and that is a huge point of difference.

It would be interesting to compare the vocabularies of the contenders.  At a guess, I’d say there’s an exponential difference between Biden’s relatively normal vocabulary and the POTUS’s bizarre attempts to express himself in English.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 07, 2020, 07:53:34 pm
Whenever the POTUS appears on my TV or devices, and I’m too slow to hit the off button, I can’t help but see him as a large, nappy wearing, blubbering baby that has just spat his dummy.

Biden isn’t particularly inspiring, and his speech impediment doesn’t help, but he is articulate and that is a huge point of difference.

It would be interesting to compare the vocabularies of the contenders.  At a guess, I’d say there’s an exponential difference between Biden’s relatively normal vocabulary and the POTUS’s bizarre attempts to express himself in English.

From 2019


https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201906/why-is-trump-so-popular
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Macca37 on November 07, 2020, 07:58:34 pm
I cannot understand Trump's rationale in persisting with the lie that that postal votes should not be counted, unless we  add stupidity to his long list of failings.

Instead, I tend to believe we are witnessing narcissism in its purest form and he would have no hesitation in calling his supporters onto the streets to create civil unrest.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: jeza on November 07, 2020, 11:25:47 pm
Biden's speech earlier today was so refreshing because he didn't mention Trump once.

After 4 years of the guy sucking up all available media attention with his latest lot of deranged nonsense - I forgot what that was like.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 08, 2020, 07:21:09 am
Hopefully both sides and their supporters can accept the result and the US can now try to get back to some kind of normality and move forward to the benefit of all citizens.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 08, 2020, 08:04:56 am
Hopefully both sides and their supporters can accept the result and the US can now try to get back to some kind of normality and move forward to the benefit of all citizens.

The democrats never accepted 2016 why should everyone become friends now?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 08, 2020, 08:12:03 am
The democrats never accepted 2016 why should everyone become friends now?

Theyre the biggest hypocritical bunch I've seen.  They've bagging Donald based on how he talks focussing on out if context quotes to paint him as poorly as possible then condemned him for taking the mickey out of the way Biden talks. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 08, 2020, 08:21:00 am
The democrats never accepted 2016 why should everyone become friends now?

"Friends" would be drawing a long bow without doubt.😳
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 08, 2020, 08:25:23 am
The democrats never accepted 2016 why should everyone become friends now?

They accepted the election result, just not the person. About half of America never accepted the person... often the way with polarizing people.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 08, 2020, 08:28:11 am
Theyre the biggest hypocritical bunch I've seen.  They've bagging Donald based on how he talks focussing on out if context quotes to paint him as poorly as possible then condemned him for taking the mickey out of the way Biden talks. 

Not 'how he talks' but rather what he says... an important difference. The Orange Weasel has often stooped to mocking someone's disability.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 08, 2020, 08:42:59 am
Theyre the biggest hypocritical bunch I've seen.  They've bagging Donald based on how he talks focussing on out if context quotes to paint him as poorly as possible then condemned him for taking the mickey out of the way Biden talks. 

They made an art form out of it. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 08, 2020, 08:49:14 am
They made an art form out of it.

Revenge of the Swamp Creatures.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 08, 2020, 09:06:21 am
They made an art form out of it. 

You'd be hard pressed to find any politician, Democrat or Republican who hasn't swam in seas of hypocrisy. Comes with the territory it would seem.

As is so often the case, voters have chosen the lesser of two evils. But 'The Grump' will do all he can to overturn the result in the courts... and we'd expect nothing less from someone who was groomed in values and principles by Roger Stone - now there's your Swamp Creature.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 08, 2020, 09:11:17 am
Roger Stone, well the Swamp really chewed him up and spat him out Baggers.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 08, 2020, 09:17:39 am
Not 'how he talks' but rather what he says... an important difference. The Orange Weasel has often stooped to mocking someone's disability.

No they mock how he talks, how he looks, his wife, his kids etc.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 08, 2020, 09:25:40 am
Kamala Harris already taking prominence and is really the new President, wonder how long before we see her take over officially?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 08, 2020, 09:41:58 am
Not 'how he talks' but rather what he says... an important difference. The Orange Weasel has often stooped to mocking someone's disability.

You’re right Baggers, the POTUS has been criticised for what he says rather than how he says it, and quite rightly too.  No POTUS should be allowed to blatantly lie, suggest the folk should inject themselves with bleach, denigrate people because of their ethnicity, gender or disability, inflame racial tensions, support armed thugs, incite supporters to intimidate voters, and countless other indiscretions.

I questioned his small vocabulary in a previous post because I believe that it may reflect a diminished mental capacity. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 08, 2020, 09:49:35 am
No they mock how he talks, how he looks, his wife, his kids etc.

Ah the infamous 'they'...

Most of the criticism I've heard and seen of Trump is related to his dishonesty.

I think you'll find that most people, regardless of politics, find his orange appearance perplexing to say the least. He just presents so much material for his critics it's a smorgasbord. Comedians love him.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 08, 2020, 09:56:52 am
Watch the Dow Jones regardless.  Uneasy lies the head
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 08, 2020, 10:02:21 am
So now thousands of voters who criticized Trump's handling of covid are all dancing on top of each other.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 08, 2020, 10:21:05 am
With or without masks?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 08, 2020, 10:56:41 am
With or without masks?
It would be unrealistic to expect 100% compliance.
To be fair.
Most are wearing masks...but a few without them, and more with masks down, standing around chatting.

The jubilation is understandable....but even with the masks the gatherings are probably not the wisest activity in a pandemic.
On the other side the though, they're gathering with a lot less caution.


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 08, 2020, 11:15:29 am
Channel 7’s US Correspondent Ashlee Mullaly learnt a lesson about live TV. She was on the streets talking about the election result when a seemingly young dorky redheaded guy seemed to want to say something. She pointed the microphone at him and after some innocuous opening sentence he joyfully declared “F*@k Trump!”. To give her credit, she resumed her commentary unflustered.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 08, 2020, 11:21:25 am
No they mock how he talks, how he looks, his wife, his kids etc.

 
Yes, I feel sorry for Trump, he tried hard but just managed to make himself a parody, it's very sad, very sad indeed! But on the upside, he doesn't have to worry anymore, he can concentrate on recovering from his pain, it's time to unite and move forward for the USA.

Anyway, concentrating on the future and not looking into the past, we love Joe he's our AFL man.

(https://resources.afl.com.au/photo-resources/2020/11/07/cdc3cf2b-959a-4c1a-b66c-9bd202dad7c6/17CaWC16MW0097.jpg?width=952&height=592)!

Joe for No.1 Carlton Ticket (https://www.afl.com.au/news/523918/-g-what-a-memory-the-day-joe-biden-became-a-footy-fan) holder!

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 08, 2020, 11:26:53 am
Only when we win it's time to unite.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 08, 2020, 11:28:28 am
Only when we win it's time to unite.
 Losing is very hard, winning is easy.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 08, 2020, 11:30:06 am
Terrible how the Democrats treated Trump like he treated them. How dare they.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 08, 2020, 11:55:17 am
I hope someone’s making sure Trump stays away from TV screens for a while. If he sees the joyful celebrations taking place across the US, he’ll feel a need to fire off a few nuclear missiles. Narcissistic injury’s a bitch.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 08, 2020, 12:08:41 pm
Terrible how the Democrats treated Trump like he treated them. How dare they.



Yes. They're both as bad as each other.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 08, 2020, 12:14:23 pm
Roger Stone, well the Swamp really chewed him up and spat him out Baggers.
I’m guessing you mean Oliver Stone. Because you couldn’t mean one of the swampiest creature of all, the dirty tricks guy who proudly calls himself a “ratf*@cker”, a guy who has a large Nixon tattoo on his back after working for him in Watergate days.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 08, 2020, 12:22:12 pm
Yes. They're both as bad as each other.
In the same way littering and murder are both crimes and therefore the same thing?

Making fun of Trump’s looks are the same as saying Obama was a Muslim born in Kenya? Or that Democrats are running satanic paedophile sex rings?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 08, 2020, 12:30:44 pm
I’m guessing you mean Oliver Stone. Because you couldn’t mean one of the swampiest creature of all, the dirty tricks guy who proudly calls himself a “ratf*@cker”, a guy who has a large Nixon tattoo on his back after working for him in Watergate days.

No I didn't mean Oliver.

Who do you mean by the swamp?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 08, 2020, 12:34:43 pm
The swamp creature.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 08, 2020, 12:37:44 pm
I'm sure the first thing the dems will do is tear down that big bad wall.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 08, 2020, 12:40:06 pm
The swamp creature.

There are many - which one?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 08, 2020, 12:41:22 pm
MBB, they’ll need to hire Sherlock Holmes to find it first.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 08, 2020, 12:43:15 pm
I’m guessing you mean Oliver Stone. Because you couldn’t mean one of the swampiest creature of all, the dirty tricks guy who proudly calls himself a “ratf*@cker”, a guy who has a large Nixon tattoo on his back after working for him in Watergate days.

That's him, Roger Stone. Grump's father figure and mentor. If Roger Stone leapt into a swamp every creature in the swamp would jump out and run for cover, weeping loudly.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 08, 2020, 12:45:26 pm
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46824649

It's rather difficult to get any clarity on the wall situation IMO.

I think you'll find those illegals are doing the sh1thouse jobs that Americans refuse to do. I wonder how many of those corporate / political elites actually employ illegals, knowingly or otherwise ?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 08, 2020, 12:47:07 pm
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46824649

It's rather difficult to get any clarity on the wall situation IMO.

I think you'll find those illegals are doing the sh1thouse jobs that Americans refuse to do. I wonder how many of those corporate / political elites actually employ illegals, knowingly or otherwise ?
 You mean like Trump's resorts?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 08, 2020, 12:47:21 pm
That's him. Grump's father figure and mentor.

I think his original father figure and mentor was Roy Cohn, who died in the 80s. Roger Stone was one of his disciples also.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 08, 2020, 12:48:15 pm
You mean like Trump's resorts?

Well, I wasn't going to name names.................
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 08, 2020, 01:09:24 pm
The next "State of the (fractured) Union" address will be something to behold
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 08, 2020, 02:56:15 pm
(https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/1283456d1432e7002c0d804fe3823641?width=1024)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 08, 2020, 03:25:42 pm
(https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/1283456d1432e7002c0d804fe3823641?width=1024)
Quality over quantity, it seems that it is true, good things do come in small packages!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 08, 2020, 03:30:09 pm
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSKMQLqmLvGuv_QyA96uVYgA-5GNvGzAeOl9g&usqp=CAU)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 08, 2020, 03:38:37 pm
The next "State of the (fractured) Union" address will be something to behold

At least we’ll understand what the POTUS is saying 🙂
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 08, 2020, 03:44:07 pm
It's not as bad as Mr Trump thinks, and certainly no reason for him to feel embarrassed and humbled by the events of the day, he can stand tall and remain proud of his achievements.

Mr Trump wasn't the first person to be outmanoeuvred by a pensioner, and he won't be the last, so we wish him a safe and happy retirement!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on November 08, 2020, 03:57:33 pm
By the by, you realise that old blubber mouth, Al Gore, spent 47 days as 'President elect' 20 years ago?

I doubt Sleepy Joe will get to double digits.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on November 08, 2020, 04:14:17 pm
Anyone want to buy a ticket to the moon....?  I have one going.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 08, 2020, 04:48:55 pm
By the by, you realise that old blubber mouth, Al Gore, spent 47 days as 'President elect' 20 years ago?

I doubt Sleepy Joe will get to double digits.
Agree, just read another headline that Joe Biden wins election, picture underneath was that of Kamala only, reckon gentleman Joe did his bit and was the real running mate and we will get Kamala running things with Barack doing some mentoring from the sidelines. Joe might get wheeled out
 to decorate the troops and kiss a few babies but he ain't running the country imo..
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 08, 2020, 08:46:17 pm
By the by, you realise that old blubber mouth, Al Gore, spent 47 days as 'President elect' 20 years ago?

I doubt Sleepy Joe will get to double digits.

I'm not sure that you're correct Fly.

The networks mistakenly awarded the election to Bush and Gore conceded defeat, only to withdraw his concession on learning that the Florida vote was very close.  The impasse was broken on 12 December when the Supreme Court ruled in Bush's favour over the Florida recount.  That gave Bush a 271 to 266 electoral college margin and the rest is history.  Bush was first declared the winner of the Florida vote in late November.  Despite winning the popular vote, Gore never achieved 270 electoral college votes.

Biden has 290 electoral college votes to the POTUS's 214 and it would take reversals in several states for the president elect to fall over ... and that's not going to happen.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 08, 2020, 08:56:18 pm
It reflects pretty poorly on the US population that they could be taken in by such a charlatan - not once, but twice. I still can't believe he even got 1 vote. How much of a blind eye do you need to turn to just skip over his absurdly long list of transgressions ?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: kruddler on November 08, 2020, 09:37:28 pm
It reflects pretty poorly on the US population that they could be taken in by such a charlatan - not once, but twice. I still can't believe he even got 1 vote. How much of a blind eye do you need to turn to just skip over his absurdly long list of transgressions ?

You assume what we see is what they see.

The US propaganda machine is large and effective.

Looking at how many of them could be 'duped' so easy makes me look in our own backyard and wonder how we are being duped in kind.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 08, 2020, 10:19:20 pm
You assume what we see is what they see.

The US propaganda machine is large and effective.

Looking at how many of them could be 'duped' so easy makes me look in our own backyard and wonder how we are being duped in kind.

No they see what we see thats why paulp can't believe he even got one vote.

Trump isn't president material.  That's simple, but even his conversation about touching pussy was painted wrong.

He was talking about consent.  They let you do anything he stated.

Instead he's being done for talking like many people ive heard talk of faunication with women.

That was deliberate. 

Who can forget the #notmypresident?

Anyway, lets see what happens next.  Its interesting enough. 

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 08, 2020, 10:25:23 pm
To be fair, Thryleon, he was saying he just assumed any women would consent because he was a star, so he didn’t need to bother with looking for signs of consent or giving the woman any offramps. That’s indecent assault or rape if the woman in fact  isn’t consenting.

Trump: Yeah, that’s her. With the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.

Bush: Whatever you want.

Trump: Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.

The “I’m a star/powerful person and she wanted me to do whatever I wanted” defence hasn’t served Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein or Roger Ailes well.

And the complaints from women show that on this occasion Trump wasn’t lying. One woman accused him of penis into vagina rape and is currently suing him for defamation after he called her a liar.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: kruddler on November 08, 2020, 10:43:43 pm
No they see what we see thats why paulp can't believe he even got one vote.

Not really.

The media is so biased that family members living in different part of the 'united' states cannot comprehend how their own flesh and blood can be so deluded.
How can this be true?
They see different things.
The local media cover different things.

Its propaganda.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 08, 2020, 11:24:46 pm
Different media outlets cover the same story with their own slant and bias.
Folks tend to watch and absorb the one that most closely appeals to their own values and political preference
One person's fact is another person's fiction.

You wont get too many on the left who will watch FOX news.
In fact you'll probably get abused for admitting you sometimes do.
Likewise for those on the right CNN is considered a hotbed of 'Communism...well Socialism, which is an equally dirty word in some sections of the States

You can actually get a laugh from switching between the two over cornflakes to see folks getting hot and bothered over totally different realities.
It's a bit like watching Kane Cornes and getting upset by his bias.

There are a few of these charts around that indicate where the different media sit on the spectrum.
Here's an example of one (but I can't guarantee it's not biased) ;D

https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-chart

Because of some of his more outrageous behaviour Trump has intensified some opposition sentiment in many media outlets due to his dismissive approach.
On the other hand outlets like FOX have 'squirmed uncomfortably' at times because they have had to defend the indefensible.
Trump was particularly upset that it was FOX that gave away Arizona first.

With him gone some of the media may move back a little (not necessarily a lot) to a more moderate central position.
Some, of course, are too far gone. ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 09, 2020, 07:24:05 am
Leaving aside the unique and hopefully never-to-be-repeated Trump phenomenon, I don't see enough difference between the two parties to expect much change, by which I mean genuine structural change that is needed if governments are there to actually serve the whole population, and not just a select few. it's not unreasonable to see them both as wings of the same party. They are both right wing parties, and as things stand presently, the Democrats are essentially moderate Republicans IMO.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2020, 07:44:16 am
It will be very interesting now to see how foreign policy unfolds especially wrgt the ME, Russia and China.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 09, 2020, 09:53:50 am
To be fair, Thryleon, he was saying he just assumed any women would consent because he was a star, so he didn’t need to bother with looking for signs of consent or giving the woman any offramps. That’s indecent assault or rape if the woman in fact  isn’t consenting.
  Mav, I think this is asserting its assault, rather than taking the comments at face value (see below).

Quote
Trump: Yeah, that’s her. With the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.

Bush: Whatever you want.

Trump: Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.

The “I’m a star/powerful person and she wanted me to do whatever I wanted” defence hasn’t served Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein or Roger Ailes well.

And the complaints from women show that on this occasion Trump wasn’t lying. One woman accused him of penis into vagina rape and is currently suing him for defamation after he called her a liar.

That's the key sentence here.  He's not talking about rape, assault or anything.  He's talking about consent.

Just because one woman accuses him of rape, even if true doesn't mean he rapes everyone he kisses, or that he is indeed talking about rape above.

I am well aware of the #metoo movement, and what that is trying to say, in respect to people using positions of power to sleep with people and coerce them into not having a choice.  I think this is very different to that in Trump's case.  He is aware that there are impressionable people trying to sleep their way into a society that they don't have access to via other methods, and far as I am concerned, no one is forced to do anything that they don't want to with the above comments, and its up to people to own their actions and responsibility for those actions.

What I am insinuating, is that there was consent, and then regret.  Very different.  Now you would have to know these people intimately, and seen what transpired to know better.  I don't pretend to know to, but these comments have been used to paint him as a rapist and assaulter.  That's not right IMHO.

This is very different to being preyed upon by others.  Rape, assault, etc, is very much not what I am advocating for, and if found guilty of actions Trump should be persecuted and quite rightly and rather than her suing him for defamation for being liar, where is his conviction of rape to go with that?  He wouldn't have been president at all if that were found to be accurate, let alone sued for defamation to go with it.

Look, people don't like him, and I understand why.  I actually don't like the man either, but in the comments above, we see red blooded masculinity being lined up and whacked by the feminist agenda, not rape, assault, etc.  Many a relationship would have failed to form without some of what Trump is talking here.  These things dont occur like a contract, and I have never asked for permission to kiss someone, you just go for it, and then back off if knocked back.



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 09, 2020, 10:06:59 am
Different media outlets cover the same story with their own slant and bias.
Even more than that @Lods‍ , they do not even broadcast the same fake rhetoric in all regions/zones, entities like News Ltd will deliberately broadcast opposing views full of the cherrypicked fake facts and flase claims from both sides of the debate to cause controversy, ......... which rate$.

All people from any side of the debate will ever get to see is predominantly those obviously fake facts and false claims which just builds rage, it's completely artificial.

People on both sides of the debate wander around asking questions like "How can this be, how come nobody can see the problem with this? When in reality the media identified the problem long ago and still deliberately chose to run with it!

The people problem is that they have assumed we all see/read the same reports!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2020, 10:19:44 am
Thryleon, his comments were rapey. Wayne Carey no doubt thought any woman walking outside a nightclub as he and his mates were exiting a nightclub in the morning would love him to grab her breasts. After all, he was the King and a current AFL superstar at the time. No doubt the girl whose breasts he grabbed “let him do it”, whether out of shock or fear. But even he didn’t try to claim consent when he was charged before a court. The only place a guy can go straight up to a woman and kiss her or grab her pussy is in a brothel. And probably not even there.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 09, 2020, 10:34:57 am
... just throwing in Bill Clinton.  Equally as vile if not more so given the proof of his conduct.  Balance Danielson
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 09, 2020, 10:35:45 am
Trump exhibits a mentality that suggest the rumours might be true, I think you would find it hard to garnish defensive public support for Trump from anyone with a daughter regardless of their politics, and not just to the assault claims but based on a lot of other proclamations that are more than relevant in a sexism debate.

But I suppose some might question the legitimacy of the groping claims, after all Trumps hands are apparently very very small, but I suppose it's one act where size doesn't matter. It's quite sad this has become public domain!

I can fully understand why Trump's family are pleading with him to concede, he is taking them down with him, he is even going to burn the careers of the younger ones! If he is prepared to do that to his own family, burn their future for a remote chance at delivering a benefit to himself, how can anybody take seriously any his commentary about caring for the US public?

It's all very sad, we are watching a very public disintegration, and business people would have very strongly founded doubts about getting involved with this person in the future, he looks unstable!       Is it perhaps symptoms of the COVID, some lingering mental duress?

There are aspects of how Trump has conducted himself in public since his COVID infection that seem almost child-like, I'm sure this change isn't just something I'm seeing because I oppose so many of his views, COVID triggered Alzheimer's perhaps. I'd be interested to know what others think?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 09, 2020, 11:17:38 am
Thryleon, his comments were rapey. Wayne Carey no doubt thought any woman walking outside a nightclub as he and his mates were exiting a nightclub in the morning would love him to grab her breasts. After all, he was the King and a current AFL superstar at the time. No doubt the girl whose breasts he grabbed “let him do it”, whether out of shock or fear. But even he didn’t try to claim consent when he was charged before a court. The only place a guy can go straight up to a woman and kiss her or grab her pussy is in a brothel. And probably not even there.

Mav, you are inferring rapey comments, because thats what suits your bias that you are viewing Trump through.

Like I said, if you take the comments at face value, "they let you do what you want" is the very definition of no push back.

Drawing comparisons to his comments, and sexual assault by another person, is very much trying to draw parallels, to a situation that is not the same because that was actually sexually assault.

I'll leave that there.  Ever been fooling around with a girl, and then put your hand somewhere they were uncomfortable with only for them to move it, and then continue fooling around with you?

That has happened to me, and I apologised and we carried on dating for a little while afterwards. 

Would that be rapey to you?

If someone comes across as Rapey, I could point the finger at Biden and call him a paedo based on the misinformation on the web.  The footage is out there, where he is touching girls that seem not ok with it, but thats not fair.  Its inferring it even if it comes across that way.

These things are not as black and white as they are made out to be, and if they were, it would ruin the excitement.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2020, 11:25:12 am
... just throwing in Bill Clinton.  Equally as vile if not more so given the proof of his conduct.  Balance Danielson
Problem with that is that you’ve got lost in the time line. The Access Hollywood tape was released before the 2016 when Trump’s character was in issue. And it was in his own words. In my view, the comments were fairly characterised as rapey. Thryleon says they weren’t. Bill Clinton has nothing to do with this unless we can find a Delorean and go back to 1992.

Bill Clinton has been diminished by the Monica Lewinsky affair and the public has warmed to Monica Lewinsky as time has gone on. Clinton used to be seen as a great campaigner for Democratic candidates. But whether because of age or diminished reputation, he was only a footnote in Biden’s coronation at the Democratic National Conference. IIRC, he was shown only for a few seconds in 1 video. I’m sure some mud stuck from the allegations made by other women but the fact the Republicans were involved in shaping them introduces some doubts as do troubling inconsistencies.

In any event, Trump’s Waterloo lies ahead of him. A prominent NY agony aunt columnist, E Jean Carroll, claimed in an autobiography that Trump shoved her into a change cubicle at a department store, physically overpowered her and raped her. He claimed she lied and he’s never even met her. Problem for him is there’s 2 photos of him talking to her at social events. She sued him for defamation. Bill Barr tried to run interference for Trump by instructing the DOJ to intervene and claim that Trump’s comment was government business, meaning that the proper defendant is the US government. If this were the case, the suit would have to be dismissed as the US government can’t be sued for defamation. The Judge rejected this argument.

Looks as if E Jean Carroll will be able to describe the alleged rape in open court and Trump will have to testify if he wants to argue his comments were true. Even though the alleged rape won’t be prosecuted, Johnny Depp has found that the secondary findings in a defamation case can influence the public’s view about someone. He was asked to withdraw from the next JK Rowling movie and has done so.



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on November 09, 2020, 11:32:32 am


Bill Clinton has been diminished by the Monica Lewinsky affair



The only reason Clinton didn't get into deeper water over this was that when they did testing on the infamous blue dress, the results were deemed to be inconclusive because everyone from Arkansas has the same DNA.....  :-)
 

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 09, 2020, 11:33:39 am
Could you imagine the furore if there was footage of Trump touching little girls like there is of Biden?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 09, 2020, 11:40:53 am
Trump exhibits a mentality that suggest the rumours might be true, I think you would find it hard to garnish defensive public support for Trump from anyone with a daughter regardless of their politics, and not just to the assault claims but based on a lot of other proclamations that are more than relevant in a sexism debate.

But I suppose some might question the legitimacy of the groping claims, after all Trumps hands are apparently very very small, but I suppose it's one act where size doesn't matter. It's quite sad this has become public domain!

I can fully understand why Trump's family are pleading with him to concede, he is taking them down with him, he is even going to burn the careers of the younger ones! If he is prepared to do that to his own family, burn their future for a remote chance at delivering a benefit to himself, how can anybody take seriously any his commentary about caring for the US public?

It's all very sad, we are watching a very public disintegration, and business people would have very strongly founded doubts about getting involved with this person in the future, he looks unstable!       Is it perhaps symptoms of the COVID, some lingering mental duress?

There are aspects of how Trump has conducted himself in public since his COVID infection that seem almost child-like, I'm sure this change isn't just something I'm seeing because I oppose so many of his views, COVID triggered Alzheimer's perhaps. I'd be interested to know what others think?

Some pretty sharp observations here, Spotted One.

Grump's world is very simple, and molded in many respects by his upbringing and Roger Stone - you're only likeable if you win. He's a narcissist, which explains why he wouldn't give a cr@p about his family, unless they were useful. He has a single focus that is intrinsically linked to his self-worth - winning. He has to win. Losing is tantamount to death. The poor bugger was held up as the ideal son, as he exhibited killer instinct traits, to his brother by his father - 'daddy loves me if I'm a killer/winner'. Appalling psychological abuse. Both sons were severely damaged by this in very different ways.

When a narcissist fears his/her control waning, they become unhinged... in plain talk. Just look at Stone when questioned and exposed for his criminal behaviour - his head nearly exploded and he went on a rant about pedophilia. But Stone is actually worse than Grump, he's your bona fide sociopath.

Grump has never been held to account for any failure in his life, he's gotten away with all manner of stuff (bankruptcies) and having a poor moral compass is able to avoid guilt and remorse. But he now finds himself in a situation he's never really experienced - losing, not to mention being mocked by millions. Anything could happen, his mental health is now more fragile than ever. Hard to see him taking any kind of 'moderate' or humble approach to his situation. In his mind he is still President and people are trying to wrong him which makes them bad. Yep, child like.

Part of Grump's C-19 medication included a mild hallucinogenic which has him on a mild 'high' which probably explains some of his carry-on. That mixed with failure would have him desperate and probably in need of more medication!! Pretty sad stuff, really, on a human level.

I've not heard of Alzheimers brought on by C-19, but we continue to learn about the on-going effects of this virus.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 09, 2020, 11:43:28 am
I suppose there can't be genuine outrage for fake news and false claims, they are just washed away in a rain of spurious commentary.

Is it just another artificially manufactured rage?

I feel it's quite sad to see so many people easily manipulated by the media, especially soon to be former President Trump.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2020, 11:44:51 am
Thryleon, I don’t disagree that the issue of consent can be fraught. I personally think the suggestion that there needs to be a verbal call out of consents like 2 pilots going through a check list is going too far, e.g. “May I now move my hand from your left breast to your right breast?” But that’s not what we’re talking about here.

We all know going in for a 1st kiss should be a slow move, both for romantic and consent reasons. Giving the woman a chance to say no or turn her head is important. Pouncing on a woman you haven’t even met carries with it the prospect of an assault charge. And grabbing their pussies before you’ve said a word to them is even more risky.

This was the behaviour he was describing.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 09, 2020, 11:48:05 am
I'm shocked but not really surprised by how quickly Murdoch has turned on Trump.

It seems once his print journalism group flipped the broadcast media groups followed suit very quickly, almost in the space of a breath!

It seems the dollar rule$, does that mean Trump hasn't got any?

Is it true that the donations for Trump's "fighting election fraud" fund include a fine print clause/rider that declares the funds can be redirected to cover the budget blow out from his campaigning overspend? In other words, his group is in debt and needs cash to cover his losses.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2020, 11:50:27 am
I suppose there can't be genuine outrage for fake news and false claims, they are just washed away in a rain of spurious commentary.

Is it just another artificially manufactured rage?

I feel it's quite sad to see so many people easily manipulated by the media, especially former President Trump.

Just a small technical point LP, Trump is still officially POTUS. I also read that Biden is not yet President elect until the election results are ratified.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 09, 2020, 11:51:29 am
I'm shocked but not really surprised by how quickly Murdoch has turned on Trump.

It seems once his print journalism group flipped the broadcast media groups followed suit very quickly, almost in the space of a breath!

It seems the dollar rule$, does that mean Trump hasn't got any?

Is it true that the donations for Trump fighting fund include a fine print rider that declares the funds can be redirected to cover the budget blow out from his campaigning overspend?

Yep, that was indeed an interesting manouevre.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 09, 2020, 12:43:00 pm
Just a small technical point LP, Trump is still officially POTUS. I also read that Biden is not yet President elect until the election results are ratified.

Yes, the POTUS retains his position until the inauguration of the new POTUS.  However, there's no formal process for determining the president-elect as such.  It's more or less a colloquial term for the person who appears to have won a conclusive majority of electoral college votes.  By tradition, the president-elect is "declared" by media networks.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 09, 2020, 12:47:50 pm
Just a small technical point LP, Trump is still officially POTUS. I also read that Biden is not yet President elect until the election results are ratified.
Corrected.

Always happy to be corrected @cookie2 , no need for an apology being wrong and admitting it is a grown up part of life!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 09, 2020, 12:54:25 pm
Thryleon, I don’t disagree that the issue of consent can be fraught. I personally think the suggestion that there needs to be a verbal call out of consents like 2 pilots going through a check list is going too far, e.g. “May I now move my hand from your left breast to your right breast?” But that’s not what we’re talking about here.

We all know going in for a 1st kiss should be a slow move, both for romantic and consent reasons. Giving the woman a chance to say no or turn her head is important. Pouncing on a woman you haven’t even met carries with it the prospect of an assault charge. And grabbing their pussies before you’ve said a word to them is even more risky.

This was the behaviour he was describing.

Inference yours regarding behaviour and what he was describing.  The fact you can find people who support that narrative says a bit about our society.  I could also point to people sharing my opinion, but we are playing the commentary (again at face value) and assuming that stars get their fair share of women who will throw themelves at them.  Why they do it, is beyond me but the fact it happens is well known, understood, and for the most part, doesnt matter.

Likewise, I cannot infer that Biden is a paedo based on the stuff thats online about him.

If you go searching for information you want to see, you might find it and about people who you would never consider to be that way inclined, and all that tells me, is that there is confirmation bias everywhere, and we need only look at the response to the COVID situation to find out exactly how that can polarise everyone in different ways that you wouldnt even think of.  Before anyone can jump on me, I am going to mention 5G here, as how this happens.

Ive heard a lot of stories over the years.  Often, there is a lot of fruit salad, exaggeration and half truths to stories, and what that has taught me is to ignore everything you hear, and mistrust even what your eyes are telling you, because very occasionally our biases skew our viewpoints so much, that we often ignore what is actually true. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2020, 01:42:07 pm
He never claimed women threw themselves at him. If he’d done that, maybe people would have thought he was deluded but that would have been it. If he’d said he could chat women up so well that they were putty in his hands, same thing. But taking what you want is quite another thing. Anyway, let’s agree to disagree. I’m sure there are those who think like I do and there are those who agree with you. What the split is is anyone’s guess and given the failure of the polls in this election there’s not much chance of figuring it out.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 09, 2020, 01:46:58 pm
https://youtu.be/jjgbAN_SaHg
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 09, 2020, 02:17:18 pm
I really can't get too outraged by any of that vision.
I see a 77 year old man trying to make kids feel a bit comfortable and having perhaps the opposite effect because of changing times.
The hands on the shoulders thing seems to be a common trait for Biden... men, women and children of all ages.
The hand around the waists is at a level where his arm ends.
It's not something I'd do in this day and age....But It's something that was probably quite common and not raise an eyebrow in the generation before mine.
My Dad used to steer me by the shoulders.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 09, 2020, 02:27:57 pm
That's it, I was expecting / dreading a Rudy Giuliani style video, or a Trumpesque grope?

Rather I think it's now a bit more of a disturbing insight into the mindset of the people asserting the claims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEGFaOeUm2A
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2020, 02:59:48 pm
Interested in the election fraud conspiracies circulating amongst QAnon & rightwingers?

Apparently, QAnon conspiracists are a bit lost and confused. After all, Trump was supposed to be Q and he was working with the FBI and military to bring down the “cabal” (Satanic Democrat paedophiles) in an event called “the Storm” when Democrats including Hillary Clinton were to be rounded up and locked up. This was supposed to happen in 2017, but QAnon believers are nothing if not patient. The latest twist intended to explain Trump’s loss to Biden is that Trump had a cunning plan. He got his homeland security people to insert invisible code onto mail-in ballots so that the Democrats would unwittingly fall into the trap of forging ballots. Now it’s just a matter of time until Trump does the big reveal and all votes for Biden are obliterated.

The other conspiracy theory paints the Democrats as ultimate Bond villains. Supposedly, the Democrats got their hands on the Hammer Supercomputer which is more powerful than any weapon Ernst Blofeld could hope to own. But wait ... there’s more! Hammer was coupled with the incredible Scorecard software and together they allowed the Democrats to change 3% of the votes.

Of course, some wet blankets are not buying these 2 brilliant stories. The amended QAnon theory seems to require a centralised print company responsible for all ballot papers but in reality the printing is the responsibility of the various states which arrange for printing in their own States. And the guy who is responsible for the Hammer and Scorecard story is a well-known hoaxer: Infamous ‘Hoax’ Artist Behind Trumpworld’s New Voter Fraud Claim (https://www.thedailybeast.com/infamous-hoax-artist-behind-trumpworlds-new-voter-fraud-claim?ref=scroll), Daily Beast.

The above article is an amazing read. The hoaxer fooled the CIA and George W. Bush into believing that Al Jazeera broadcasts contained secret Al Qaeda traffic. Bush was almost at the point of shooting down 2 incoming French passenger jets on the strength of this guy’s claims. Fortunately, he forced them to turn around instead ...

Of course, this crap won’t go anywhere in Court. But if it can be whipped up into a scandal, naive or nefarious State Governors or legislatures might be persuaded to ignore the vote and send a slate of Trump electors to the Electoral College to throw the election his way.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 09, 2020, 03:04:10 pm
Super computer v Russian hackers. Like I said they're as bad as each other.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 09, 2020, 03:04:38 pm
I really can't get too outraged by any of that vision.
I see a 77 year old man trying to make kids feel a bit comfortable and having perhaps the opposite effect because of changing times.
The hands on the shoulders thing seems to be a common trait for Biden... men, women and children of all ages.
The hand around the waists is at a level where his arm ends.
It's not something I'd do in this day and age....But It's something that was probably quite common and not raise an eyebrow in the generation before mine.
My Dad used to steer me by the shoulders.

Would you leave him alone with your grand kids?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 09, 2020, 03:12:22 pm
Would you leave him alone with your grand kids?
That's a bit disturbing, the idea you are selecting some strangers to leave in charge of your grand-kids! :o

I suspect there are some grandparents floating around that struggle to leave their grand-kids with the kids parents! ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 09, 2020, 03:14:12 pm
Would you leave him alone with your grand kids?

Probably.
He's the President elect of the United States.
It would be a great experience for them.

Seriously....
How many unfamiliar adults would you leave your grandkids alone with.
The thing about groomers of children though is that they are experts at the secret stuff.
They don't carry out their evil practices at special political events in front of a dozen cameras.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2020, 03:16:29 pm
Super computer v Russian hackers. Like I said they're as bad as each other.
Definitely. In the same way Jaws from Moonraker was as bad as Julian Knight. Except of course one is real and the other is fictional.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 09, 2020, 03:19:00 pm
I really can't get too outraged by any of that vision.
I see a 77 year old man trying to make kids feel a bit comfortable and having perhaps the opposite effect because of changing times.
The hands on the shoulders thing seems to be a common trait for Biden... men, women and children of all ages.
The hand around the waists is at a level where his arm ends.
It's not something I'd do in this day and age....But It's something that was probably quite common and not raise an eyebrow in the generation before mine.
My Dad used to steer me by the shoulders.

Exactly Lods.  I forced myself to watch most of the "pedophile" compilation and I reckon you'd be hard-pressed to find any footage that simply didn't show an older bloke trying to put young kids at ease. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 09, 2020, 03:21:34 pm
Seriously....
How many unfamiliar adults would you leave your grandkids alone with.
The thing about groomers of children though is that they are experts at the secret stuff.
They don't carry out their evil practices at special political events in front of a dozen cameras.
Yes, these News Ltd hacks and conspiracy nutters do not realise how much damage they do to genuine issues of abuse, they effectively trivialise the genuine claims made in public forums, and in doing so desensitise the public. The thin thinkers first thought is then to scoff!

One could be forgiven for being suspicious that those people making the claims are deliberately in the business of desensitising the public for nefarious reasons!

Like I said earlier, I think there are very good reasons to be more suspicious of those propagating the claims, I'm quite comfortable questioning the motives of the poster more than the alleged based on what is shown.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 09, 2020, 03:24:13 pm
Definitely. In the same way Jaws from Moonraker was as bad as Julian Knight. Except of course one is real and the other is fictional.

If you think so.

What are your thoughts on Biden sniffing little girls?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2020, 03:26:26 pm
Are they ground up into powdered form? I’m against drugs (just in case ASADA is reading this).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 09, 2020, 03:28:05 pm
Are they ground up into powdered form? I’m against drugs (just in case ASADA is reading this).

I'll take that as you think it's creepy like most normal people.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 09, 2020, 03:30:42 pm
Like getting those evil Santa booth photos at Christmas time, or letting the Priest handle your little girl during baptism!

I'v heard there are even some religious groups that let "The Leader" tug at a foreskin! :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2020, 03:31:57 pm
You can do anything you’d like. I’d rather stand between a bear and her cubs than between a right-winger and his fever fantasy. I’m surprised you haven’t touched on the disturbing photo of Biden kissing an adult Hunter Biden. Like, who does that?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 09, 2020, 03:35:41 pm
You can do anything you’d like. I’d rather stand between a bear and her cubs than between a right-winger and his fever fantasy. I’m surprised you haven’t touched on the disturbing photo of Biden kissing an adult Hunter Biden. Like, who does that?
(https://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images%20(501-600)/536-Kising-2.jpg)(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/09/25/03/50A11BFA00000578-0-image-a-34_1537841268315.jpg)
Am I helping?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 09, 2020, 03:38:08 pm
You can do anything you’d like. I’d rather stand between a bear and her cubs than between a right-winger and his fever fantasy. I’m surprised you haven’t touched on the disturbing photo of Biden kissing an adult Hunter Biden. Like, who does that?

Like I said you think it's creepy. I do respect you for not lying and pretending that you think it's okay.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 09, 2020, 03:40:30 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/ln2Pl85.gif?1)(https://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/Homer+badman+season+6+episode+9+_eaf6f4393d0fa15a4a2adc0ec55ff6a8.jpg)(https://i.insider.com/5fa71f001df1d50018219767?width=700)
Who is under the podium, is this a Police Academy podium moment?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EcHZAf1UEAEH4BX.jpg)

That could well be Trump's happy face!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2020, 03:42:54 pm
Of course I’m not going to lie. And as I haven’t bothered to watch the video you linked, I can’t comment.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Tragic on November 09, 2020, 05:00:35 pm
It's mildly creepy in a grandfatherly, trying to be comforting way. Freshly washed hair does smell nice. These days he should probably avoid doing anything even remotely like that. I have daughters and they have friends and in these days you know it's dangerous to even comfort them in any way shape or form. Bloody paedos make the rest of us very uneasy and think twice about even trying to be nice. Back to Biden, if that is his only contact with them then I don't think there's much to it. Groomers spend a lot of time being nice in public and then the worst of human nature behind closed doors.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2020, 05:22:36 pm
But you haven’t been conditioned as US right-wingers have been by QAnon and right-wing ratf@ckers. If you had been, you might have subliminally absorbed some of their long-running attempts to link Democrats to paedophilia. One moron in the US swallowed the Pizzagate theory hook line & sinker. That was a conspiracy theory that used Wikileaks emails in which John Podesta said he liked pizza to support a belief  that Comet Pizza had a basement in which children were being kept and sexually abused by Democrats. So angry did this guy become that he drove down armed with an AK-47 and burst in while families were dining, demanding to be taken to the basement. They were finally able to convince him that there was no basement at all. He gave himself up and off to jail he went.

It would be hard for those who are exposed to the right wing echo chamber to avoid being tainted by it. Personally, I steer away from consuming that sort of disinformation, especially given the penchant right-wingers have for deceptively-edited and sometimes fabricated videos. But feel free to engage with it if you wish.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 09, 2020, 07:12:24 pm
https://youtu.be/ydYxocpZ0kM
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2020, 07:25:44 pm
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/10/22/10/34679172-8864821-The_conservative_Drudge_Report_chose_to_share_the_image_captioni-a-62_1603357204918.jpg)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 09, 2020, 07:32:09 pm
https://youtu.be/ydYxocpZ0kM

Gotta be candid. Anyone who could mistake that behaviour for anything related to paedophilia is at least incredibly gullible/naive or just plain paranoid or are projecting big time - hiding their own suppressed unnatural urges toward children.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 09, 2020, 07:47:11 pm
Certainly made me knit my eyebrows ..... agreed @Tragic ... bad look



 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2020, 08:00:11 pm
Calls for unity are going well: Arkansas Police Chief Resigns After Calling For ‘Death To All Marxist Democrats’, HuffPost. (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/arkansas-police-chief-resigns-parler_n_5fa8a8d7c5b66009569c0d85)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 09, 2020, 09:54:08 pm
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/10/22/10/34679172-8864821-The_conservative_Drudge_Report_chose_to_share_the_image_captioni-a-62_1603357204918.jpg)

As bad as that is, at least he was set up by a 25 year old who invited him back to her hotel room.

She was only playing borats daughter in the film and to get access to rudi she had a press pass.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 09, 2020, 09:55:06 pm
https://youtu.be/ydYxocpZ0kM

That is way over the top.

A couple of times he had hand in boob territory 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 09, 2020, 10:59:41 pm
ROFL. Pfizer has announced their trials show their Covid vaccine is 90% effective. Trump must be having one of the biggest tantrums right now. He’d be demanding to know why this news didn’t break before the election.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 10, 2020, 08:05:44 am
That is way over the top.

A couple of times he had hand in boob territory 

Way WAY over the line
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 08:23:54 am
Gotta be candid. Anyone who could mistake that behaviour for anything related to paedophilia is at least incredibly gullible/naive or just plain paranoid or are projecting big time - hiding their own suppressed unnatural urges toward children.
It's bizarre how gullible people can be when they want to be, they'll happily ignore facts like the frame rate being slowed to 1/10th normal speed to stretch out the duration of an event, crop out the kids laughing or smiling at a joke, or edit out the same kids shying from women in the room(Presumably just because the kids doesn't like being touched by anyone.)

In the meantime, morons use rubbish like this to ban contact with kids that really need a hug, and some parents can't hug their own kids due to the psycho-babble bullcrap baggage they carry around! But I bet a bunch of the very same parents will happy whip the kids into shape instead, or defend the right to beat about a bit, which itself is another sign of suppressed misplaced desires(They carry guilty thoughts so they act out on kids!) Then the same heartless pricks will be on the front line wanting to string up teenagers that run-amok after years of parental abuse or neglect, behaviour that might have been eliminated with a few hugs as a 10 year old!

And now because of Donald, they do this in the name of politics, they've found the second biggest cause to hide behind as a smokescreen other than religion!

Your little preppy distressed at their first day of school is going to sit in the corner isolated and crying as you walk away abandoning them, perhaps a state they carry forward forever and never recover from, because you refuse the right for that "pedo teacher" to sit them on his/her lap and give the crying child a hug in the shadows of your abandonment! Off to the cafe with the crying missus, and a quick boof before going back to work, the kid will be OK! ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 10, 2020, 08:55:34 am
It's bizarre how gullible people can be when they want to be, they'll happily ignore facts like the frame rate being slowed to 1/10th normal speed to stretch out the duration of an event, crop out the kids laughing or smiling at a joke, or edit out the same kids shying from women in the room(Presumably just because the kids doesn't like being touched by anyone.)

In the meantime, morons use rubbish like this to ban contact with kids that really need a hug, and some parents can't hug their own kids due to the psycho-babble bullcrap baggage they carry around! But I bet a bunch of the very same parents will happy whip the kids into shape instead, or defend the right to beat about a bit, which itself is another sign of suppressed misplaced desires(They carry guilty thoughts so they act out on kids!) Then the same heartless pricks will be on the front line wanting to string up teenagers that run-amok after years of parental abuse or neglect, behaviour that might have been eliminated with a few hugs as a 10 year old!

And now because of Donald, they do this in the name of politics, they've found the second biggest cause to hide behind as a smokescreen other than religion!

No one could possibly argue against anything you've written here, Spotted One. But preying on lowest common denominator / most perverted interpretation is a mantra of far-right politics, possibly even many non-moderate conservatives.

I would have thought Trump sexualising his own daughter on TV, even admitting he'd fck her if she wasn't his daughter was just about the worst thing I've heard a parent publicly admit about one of his children - now that is perverted. But, hey, he's just havin' some fun, eh?

Sheesh, my Danish grandparents were always 'effusive' with their affection (cultural) to my sister and I when we were kids. All they knew is that they wanted to let their grand kids know how loved they were. Kisses and hugs all over the shop.

So now if a Greek/Italian (hey, anyone expressive of their affection) grandfather hugs and kisses his grandson he's a pedo and a poof! I have a number of Greek friends and I'm always greeted with hugs and kisses - likewise Mrs Baggers... are they wanting to fck my wife?

Sad that we can see clumsy affection and immediately condemn it as perverted and unnatural and that the person must be a sicko. Quite often that perversion is in the eyes of the beholder.

I have young nieces and nephews who I never hesitate to give huge hugs to. I hold them with deep affection so they know they're loved and cared for and, yes, if it's in public I can see the disapproving looks - well those sickos can go fck themselves, I will not deprive my loved ones of affection due to the looks of a few. If I sense the kids are uncomfortable, I'd back off immediately, of course but when they see Uncle Shano they come a runnin' for an those unconditional hugs. Oh, and the little one, I bet my hand when I pick her up might hold her bum to support her!!! Quick, call the cops, Baggers is a pedo!!!

99% or more of hugs from parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts bla bla bla are innocent and actually beautiful and incredibly important to the growth of the child. Love without holding, hugs, kisses etc. is what kind of love? Sadly, the 1% or so of disturbed, sick people seem to have a disproportionate say in how we perceive affection, or rather the much higher % of those who cast their own perverted interpretation on natural human affection. Very sad.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 10, 2020, 09:44:44 am
No one could possibly argue against anything you've written here, Spotted One. But preying on lowest common denominator / most perverted interpretation is a mantra of far-right politics, possibly even many non-moderate conservatives.

I would have thought Trump sexualising his own daughter on TV, even admitting he'd fck her if she wasn't his daughter was just about the worst thing I've heard a parent publicly admit about one of his children - now that is perverted. But, hey, he's just havin' some fun, eh?

Sheesh, my Danish grandparents were always 'effusive' with their affection (cultural) to my sister and I when we were kids. All they knew is that they wanted to let their grand kids know how loved they were. Kisses and hugs all over the shop.

So now if a Greek/Italian (hey, anyone expressive of their affection) grandfather hugs and kisses his grandson he's a pedo and a poof! I have a number of Greek friends and I'm always greeted with hugs and kisses - likewise Mrs Baggers... are they wanting to fck my wife?

Sad that we can see clumsy affection and immediately condemn it as perverted and unnatural and that the person must be a sicko. Quite often that perversion is in the eyes of the beholder.

I have young nieces and nephews who I never hesitate to give huge hugs to. I hold them with deep affection so they know they're loved and cared for and, yes, if it's in public I can see the disapproving looks - well those sickos can go fck themselves, I will not deprive my loved ones of affection due to the looks of a few. If I sense the kids are uncomfortable, I'd back off immediately, of course but when they see Uncle Shano they come a runnin' for an those unconditional hugs. Oh, and the little one, I bet my hand when I pick her up might hold her bum to support her!!! Quick, call the cops, Baggers is a pedo!!!

99% or more of hugs from parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts bla bla bla are innocent and actually beautiful and incredibly important to the growth of the child. Love without holding, hugs, kisses etc. is what kind of love? Sadly, the 1% or so of disturbed, sick people seem to have a disproportionate say in how we perceive affection, or rather the much higher % of those who cast their own perverted interpretation on natural human affection. Very sad.

I think that you misunderstand something.

As a Greek, that Biden footage is unsettling for a multitude of reasons, not exclusively, that culturally, seeing that sort of displays of affection from westerners is very unusual.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 10, 2020, 10:11:26 am
Is the girl who was supposedly molested the one pictured on the floor of the Senate? That’s the daughter of Senator Chris Coons and his wife who are standing with her. They live in Wilmington as does Biden and the families are very close. Coon’s wife is best friends with Beau Biden’s widow. Biden campaigned for Coons. Coons says Biden has known his kids since birth and they regard him as a grandfather. He says he could hear Biden’s comments to his daughter and he says his daughter didn’t regard Biden’s behaviour while talking to her as creepy. But why let facts get in the way. It’s just like a colouring book which everybody can colour in as they choose.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 10, 2020, 10:32:39 am
https://www.thecut.com/2019/03/an-awkward-kiss-changed-how-i-saw-joe-biden.html

In 2014, I was the 35-year-old Democratic nominee for lieutenant governor in Nevada. The landscape wasn’t looking good for my party that year. There were no high-profile national races to help boost turnout, and after the top candidate bowed out of the governor’s race, “None of the Above” ended up winning the Democratic primary.

So when my campaign heard from Vice-President Joe Biden’s office that he was looking to help me and other Democrats in the state, I was grateful and flattered. His team offered to bring him to a campaign rally in an effort to help boost voter turnout. We set the date for November 1, just three days before election day.
In a state as large but sparsely populated as Nevada, it takes nonstop travel to connect with all its residents. You’re lucky to get properly fed, much less look properly coiffed as female candidates are often required to do. I was exhausted and short on time, so decided to not to wash my hair the morning of the rally. I sprayed some dry shampoo in my hair, raced off to the Reno airport, and flew back to Las Vegas.

The event proceeded as most political events do: coordinated chaos with random problems that no one can predict. I found Eva Longoria, co-founder of the Latino Victory Project, roaming the parking lot trying to figure out how to get inside the union hall. My staff was running around town trying to purchase ferns because according to Biden’s team, no other vegetation was acceptable for the stage.
I found my way to the holding room for the speakers, where everyone was chatting, taking photos, and getting ready to speak to the hundreds of voters in the audience. Just before the speeches, we were ushered to the side of the stage where we were lined up by order of introduction. As I was taking deep breaths and preparing myself to make my case to the crowd, I felt two hands on my shoulders. I froze. “Why is the vice-president of the United States touching me?”
I felt him get closer to me from behind. He leaned further in and inhaled my hair. I was mortified. I thought to myself, “I didn’t wash my hair today and the vice-president of the United States is smelling it. And also, what in the actual screw? Why is the vice-president of the United States smelling my hair?” He proceeded to plant a big slow kiss on the back of my head. My brain couldn’t process what was happening. I was embarrassed. I was shocked. I was confused. There is a Spanish saying, “tragame tierra,” it means, “earth, swallow me whole.” I couldn’t move and I couldn’t say anything. I wanted nothing more than to get Biden away from me. My name was called and I was never happier to get on stage in front of an audience.
By then, as a young Latina in politics, I had gotten used to feeling like an outsider in rooms dominated by white men. But I had never experienced anything so blatantly inappropriate and unnerving before. Biden was the second-most powerful man in the country and, arguably, one of the most powerful men in the world. He was there to promote me as the right person for the lieutenant governor job. Instead, he made me feel uneasy, gross, and confused. The vice-president of the United States of America had just touched me in an intimate way reserved for close friends, family, or romantic partners — and I felt powerless to do anything about it.
Our strange interaction happened during a pivotal moment in my political career. I’d spent months raising money, talking to voters, and securing endorsements. Biden came to Nevada to speak to my leadership and my potential to be second-in-command — an important role he knew firsthand. But he stopped treating me like a peer the moment he touched me. Even if his behavior wasn’t violent or sexual, it was demeaning and disrespectful. I wasn’t attending the rally as his mentee or even his friend; I was there as the most qualified person for the job.
Imagine you’re at work and a male colleague who you have no personal relationship with approaches you from behind, smells your hair, and kisses you on the head. Now imagine it’s the CEO of the company. If Biden and I worked together in a traditional office, I would have complained to the HR department, but on the campaign trail, there’s no clear path for what to do when a powerful man crosses the line. In politics, you shrug it off, smile for the cameras, and get back to the task of trying to win your race.
After the event, I told a few of my staff what happened. We all talked about the inexplicable weirdness of what he did, but I didn’t plan on telling anyone else. I didn’t have the language or the outlet to talk about what happened. Who do you tell? What do you say? Is it enough of a transgression if a man touches and kisses you without consent, but doesn’t rise to the level of what most people consider sexual assault? I did what most women do, and moved on with my life and my work.
Time passed and pictures started to surface of Vice-President Biden getting uncomfortably close with women and young girls. Biden nuzzling the neck of the Defense secretary’s wife; Biden kissing a senator’s wife on the lips; Biden whispering in women’s ears; Biden snuggling female constituents. I saw obvious discomfort in the women’s faces, and Biden, I’m sure, never thought twice about how it made them feel. I knew I couldn’t say anything publicly about what those pictures surfaced for me; my anger and my resentment grew.
Had I never seen those pictures, I may have been able to give Biden the benefit of the doubt. Had there not been multiple articles written over the years about the exact same thing — calling his creepy behavior an “open secret” — perhaps it would feel less offensive. And yet despite the steady stream of pictures and the occasional article, Biden retained his title of America’s Favorite Uncle. On occasion that title was downgraded to America’s Creepy Uncle but that in and of itself implied a certain level of acceptance. After all, how many families just tolerate or keep their young children away from the creepy uncle without ever acknowledging that there should be zero tolerance for a man who persistently invades others’ personal space and makes people feel uneasy and gross? In this case, it shows a lack of empathy for the women and young girls whose space he is invading, and ignores the power imbalance that exists between Biden and the women he chooses to get cozy with.
For years I feared my experience would be dismissed. Biden will be Biden. Boys will be boys. I worried about the doubts, the threats, the insults, and the minimization. “It’s not that big of a deal. He touched her, so what?” The immediate passing of judgement and the questioning of motives. “Why now? Why so long after? She just wants attention.” Or: “It’s politically motivated.” I would be lying if I said I didn’t carefully consider all of this before deciding to speak. But hearing Biden’s potential candidacy for president discussed without much talk about his troubling past as it relates to women became too much to keep bottled up any longer.
When I spoke to a male friend who is also a political operative in Biden’s orbit — the first man who had heard the story outside of my staff and close friends years ago — he did what no one else had and made me question myself and wonder if I was doing the right thing. He reminded me that Biden has significant resources and argued points that made me question my memory, even though I’ve replayed that scene in my mind a thousand times. He reminded me that my credibility would be attacked and that I should be prepared for the type of “back and forth” that could occur. (When reached by New York Magazine, a representative for Vice-President Joe Biden declined to comment.)
I’m not suggesting that Biden broke any laws, but the transgressions that society deems minor (or doesn’t even see as transgressions) often feel considerable to the person on the receiving end. That imbalance of power and attention is the whole point — and the whole problem.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 10:50:12 am
All the accusations are taken seriously, those against Biden and those against Trump.

The Lucy Flores issue is one of power, as she points out herself, not sexual abuse as the Trump camp want to make out, or sexual abuse as Trump has been accused himself. They are just rock throwers.

But we see this type of accusation in general as a generational issue, I'm not sure the younger generations are right on this matter, I even suspect they might be the ones with a misplaced perception of sexuality. I suspect too much internet porn and innuendo during development has their sexual perspectives skewed, they think every touch is a sexual proposition. All reinforced by a News Ltd dominated media that happily broadcasts baseless accusations as evidence, and then self-references as supporting proof. Maybe Murdoch needed a hug as a child?

At the moment, as part of legitimate scientific and medical research, you'll find calls for increased physical contact between parents, family, friends and kids with claims whole generations are missing out on something that is actually critical for their development. There are demonstrable reductions in stress hormones, improved durability and stability shown as a consequence of a simple hug. Think about that Trumpites when you read about the next internet educated teenager killing themself!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 10, 2020, 10:51:49 am
Like most things in this election... folks will see what they want to see.

From my point of view.
If someone looks like a groomer, and acts like a groomer, then chances are they're just a friendly old guy who likes kids.
The key for a child abuser is secrecy.
They're masters at disguising their behaviour and many go undetected for years.

Biden's behaviour in those clips is not only detectable by camera but what he's saying is being said within hearing distance of the parents.
As Mav points out 'Uncle Joe' may even be a regular visitor to some of these families homes and may be well known to the kids.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 10:57:45 am
Yes, you would think he'd do that stuff in a campaign bus like Trump, and not in a room full of people like Biden!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 10, 2020, 10:58:56 am
Like most things in this election... folks will see what they want to see.

From my point of view.
If someone looks like a groomer, and acts like a groomer, then chances are they're just a friendly old guy who likes kids.
The key for a child abuser is secrecy.
They're masters at disguising their behaviour and many go undetected for years.

Biden's behaviour in those clips is not only detectable by camera but what he's saying is being said within hearing distance of the parents.
As Mav points out 'Uncle Joe' may even be a regular visitor to some of these families homes and may be well known to the kids.

"Uncle" Michael did it in plain sight too, his fans and the democrat voters have a lot in common.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 10, 2020, 10:59:43 am
Yes, you would think he'd do that stuff in a campaign bus like Trump, and not in a room full of people like Biden!

You do your child sniffing in private?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 11:00:51 am
"Uncle" Michael did it in plain sight too, his fans and the democrat voters have a lot in common.
No, that's a News Ltd style lie, Michael Jackson had kids sleep over in his bedroom, a bedroom like the one in Trump's campaign bus!

Hey, but why are we worried, Melania looks happy she is off the hook!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 11:03:05 am
You do your child sniffing in private?
The smeller is the fella! ;)

Is there irony in your avatar being the Kindergarten Cop, a smokescreen?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 10, 2020, 11:06:23 am
The tone of this thread is definitely  heading south.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 11:09:59 am
I've associates who run a nearby dance school, primarily the classes are fully of primary or preschoolers.

The laws of the land as policed by the woke generations mean they can't touch the kids, even before COVID, apparently the kids might catch some gay disease or all the female dance teachers are more lesbian pedo than a Jewish principal!

Weekly the owners endure abuse from parents who claim they wasted or are wasting money on a lessons for a kid that cannot dance, but the poor dance teachers are not allowed to correct the kids dodgy form and have to communicate to preschoolers using only words.

If the teachers get frustrated they sometimes raise a voice, something they feel very guilt ridden about because it upsets the kids, the parents then withdraw the kids because the teachers are apparently bullies!

The internet generations have built themselves a feedback loop from a paradox of accusations that are unworkable in real life.

I suppose myotherapy for children will eventually be reduced to overhead fish slapping, humming non-discriminatory tunes and inhaled weak incense! I'm just waiting for the first civil court case suing a naturopath for adding a lethal does of some rare-earth element to the homepathic memory water! One part per trillion was too strong, it caused my teenagers suicide! So much for learning about derivatives!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 10, 2020, 11:23:07 am
My year 12 coordinator is now a convicted paedophile. We all knew what he was up to then, he was pretty open with his affection for young blonde girls but none of the teachers believed us at the time. Until two years later when he got one pregnant.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 10, 2020, 11:43:42 am
MBB seems to be on a mission to paint Biden as a paedophile. I don’t buy that at all. And it appears the US voters didn’t either.

You might think that MBB has unearthed some fresh evidence here but the issue of being too personal with women was ventilated before Biden was the Democratic nominee. It seems that the public took the view he was a Clueless Older Guy who was overly personal rather than sexual. He apologised to anyone he had made uncomfortable and more importantly has avoided repeating those mistakes. During the campaign, he made sure he didn’t touch before asking.

I guess we’re going to be relitigating the election campaign as if we’re in the old days where Australian viewers would see TV shows that aired in the US 6 months previously. Here’s a spoiler: the Trump campaign didn’t make much, or anything, of this issue. I wonder why ...

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 11:45:54 am
My year 12 coordinator is now a convicted paedophile. We all knew what he was up to then, he was pretty open with his affection for young blonde girls but none of the teachers believed us at the time. Until two years later when he got one pregnant.
Yes, I'm sorry to hear that and I'm sorry for you.

I understand where your perception bias comes from and how an organisation like News Ltd prays on it, and how it is reinforced by the internet! But with some professional help and guidance you can probably recover or correct it, whatever technical term you accept. But you won't find it in the Herald Sun, NY Times or on the Internet! It can't be fixed, adjusted or nudged by yourself because the problem doesn't exist outside of your own perception, so it's impossible to see it for yourself, it has to be dealt with by a 3rd party, hopefully a professional who takes an external perspective. Big family picnics must be your worst nightmare! :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 10, 2020, 11:47:54 am
In other words, MBB, you could be an active paedophile yourself. Everyone is suspect.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 12:02:36 pm
Everyone is a pedo, "they" are all trying to steal your stuff, "they" are all bad drivers, "he or she" is a bad person. It's "their" fault!

Best set up the security cameras, the 9ft electric fence, the barb wire, the razor ribbon, the guard dogs, the baseball bat under the car seat, the axe under the bed, the knife in the back pocket or boot, the Taser in the glove box and eat with one arm wrapped around your dinner plate, because the world is turning to shizen with assaults and attacks everywhere, "they" are all animals, nobody is safe. Dig the bomb shelter, prepare for the apocalypse, buy a gun, hoard bog paper! ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 12:14:52 pm
Quote
The Trump campaign and many senior Republicans show no sign of conceding defeat any time soon, despite Biden's lead in several battleground states growing larger as the final votes are counted.
"Mark Esper has been terminated," Trump tweeted on Tuesday (AEST). "I would like to thank him for his service."

Trump named Christopher Miller, the director of the National Counter-terrorism Centre, as acting defence secretary.

Esper had pushed back earlier this year against Trump's calls to invoke the Insurrection Act, which would have allowed him to send National Guard troops (https://www.theage.com.au/link/follow-20170101-p54yle) into American cities against the wishes of state governors.
Hmm, life is truly stranger than fiction, and this would be funny if is was anybody but Trump, but it is not like this wasn't predicted.

Everybody knows why Trump is doing this, he is broke but at the moment no debtors can launch a case against him as he has presidential immunity, but if he loses the election then chooses to fight the debtors this time next year he's forked! His history, at least Ivana's history when Trump first burned his fortune, was to negotiate settlements privately while pronouncing defiance publicly. In much the same way Trump took on board the COVID science, cures and leading edge treatments privately, while denouncing science and COVID publicly. COVID cures and god health are only for the rich in Trump's world!

In other words he is a fraud!

Melania won't save him like Ivana did!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 10, 2020, 12:22:26 pm
Bravo Esper. It was looking pretty grim there for a while. IIRC, Esper was a lobbyist in the arms industry when he was appointed, so expectations were very low. But standing against Trump’s desire to unleash the military on Democratic States was brave and necessary. I think Esper’s epiphany was when Trump used General Milley and Esper as part of the gaggle who followed him to the church after Trump had unleashed the hounds on peaceful protesters. Milley also expressed regret over being involved.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 12:26:07 pm
Bravo Esper. It was looking pretty grim there for a while. IIRC, Esper was a lobbyist in the arms industry when he was appointed, so expectations were very low. But standing against Trump’s desire to unleash the military on Democratic States was brave and necessary. I think Esper’s epiphany was when Trump used General Milley and Esper as part of the gaggle who followed him to the church after Trump had unleashed the hounds on peaceful protesters. Milley also expressed regret over being involved.
As I have heard it stated from former US officers, it's not going to happen even if the order is signed. The military would take into account the populist vote, and basically then be forced to ignore or arrest Trump for ironically inciting insurrection!

Trump is a narcissist, so he perceives insurrection as something people do to him, but the military and courts read it as something someone does to America, even if that someone is a President!

I've been quite reassured listening to various Colonel's and Generals, they warned though it could lead to localised disputes between National Guard and Army, but think they would be very isolated cases caused by hard line Republican right wing sympathisers. This group could spawn a new generation of home grown gorillas and domestic terrorists!

The problem for the American public in general is that the situation as model escalates very very quickly. Trump's hope is that he can still shut down the country using the National Guard, but it's unlikely even sympathetic Republican Senators will accept having machine guns in their office pointed at staff!

So it's very unlikely he'll get any real support for using the US Military on the US Public!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 10, 2020, 12:36:18 pm
So how many others will Trump axe in order to burnish his credentials as a tinpot dictator? The FBI director, Chis Wray, would be next. He’d love to sack Fauci, but he’s the Director of the National Institutes of Health which is not formally part of the administration. To engineer his sacking, he’d have to install a few henchmen in key positions who could then make it happen.

It’s just as well the States run the elections. Most of those in charge of the elections in the battleground states are Republicans, but they are State officials who were elected to those positions, so they are largely immune from Trump’s attacks. If they had been Trump appointees, Trump would have just sacked them and replaced them with Bill Barr types who would have happily changed the results.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 12:39:47 pm
The US public are acutely aware of the "Better off dead than Red" threat, it won't be long before they build the association between Trump's behaviours and the ideology!

Trump's going to make himself enemy No.1 if he keeps up this line of attack! Perhaps it's only his narcissism that stops him seeing that, it sounds like those around him have identified the problem already, but perhaps he's threatened to take them down with him if they refuse to fall into line!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 10, 2020, 12:47:54 pm
Americans are only against socialism or communism. They don’t seem to mind authoritarians. Strongmen appeal to right wingers, which is strange given their alleged fondness for individual liberty.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 10, 2020, 12:50:26 pm
Perhaps we could run a sweep on when the POTUS will concede defeat.

I'm going for never  ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 10, 2020, 01:02:03 pm
I think that article I read is going to be prophetic. It really does seem that all roads lead back to Mitch McConnell.

If the Republicans had a clear majority in the Senate, McConnell would have been pushing his colleagues to call for a smooth transition of power. But he needs at least 1 of the 2 runoff elections to go to a Republican. He needs Trump to remain potent in order to drive turnout amongst Trump’s base. The last thing he wants is for Trump to go off to Maralago in a huff and refuse to hold rallies to support Purdue and Loeffler.

I imagine Trump’s attempts to steal the election will keep the QAnon movement alive. If he had accepted the loss (which of course would never have happened), QAnon conspiracists would have wandered around in a daze like the joggers who had been following Forrest Gump when Forrest told them to go home.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 01:09:06 pm
Americans are only against socialism or communism. They don’t seem to mind authoritarians. Strongmen appeal to right wingers, which is strange given their alleged fondness for individual liberty.
 Perhaps, while the guns are pointing outwards!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 01:15:44 pm
The concept that the National Guard or Army will discriminate between Republican and Democrat is laughable, the nutters think the army is going to ask first and shot later!

Just wait until the first Trumpanutter revolts against being locked down by the National Guard, it'll be anarchy as caused by Trump.

The democrats only have to sit it out in their living rooms and wait, prolong the military lockdown, and the Trumpanutters will break out guns blazing after going bunker crazy!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 10, 2020, 01:20:22 pm
Who says the National Guard will lock down the right wing nutters? In Wisconsin, the police regarded militias as informal deputies. They allowed Rittenhouse and others to wander around with long guns, gave them water and thanked them for their support.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 01:25:01 pm
Who says the National Guard will lock down the right wing nutters? In Wisconsin, the police regarded militias as informal deputies. They allowed Rittenhouse and others to wander around with long guns, gave them water and thanked them for their support.
Police as you know is a very different issue in the USA, the National Guard won't be in a position to discriminate or be easily influenced by peers, and they are equally staffed and commanded from both sides of politics.

The vast bulk of National Guard commanders are retired or semi-retired military.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on November 10, 2020, 02:19:26 pm
Perhaps we could run a sweep on when the POTUS will concede defeat.

I'm going for never  ::)
I would sincerely love to be a fly on the wall when someone (who will no doubt be clutching a short straw...) sits down with Donald and tries to explain that it's time to pull the pin.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 02:20:24 pm
I would sincerely love to be a fly on the wall when someone (who will no doubt be clutching a short straw...) sits down with Donald and tries to explain that it's time to pull the pin.

 
I think the problem is he's been pulling his pin for far too long already, boom boom!

In any case, it looks like it's Fox News pulling the pin now and frequently, so loyal it brings a tear to my eye! :o

(https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2020/01/26/12/Murdoch.jpg)
Enter - Elliot Carver
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 10, 2020, 03:21:52 pm
Perhaps we could run a sweep on when the POTUS will concede defeat.

I'm going for never  ::)

I'll 2nd that! He'll be roaming the streets of some country without an extradition treaty with the US proclaiming he is the exiled king until he falls off the twig.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 10, 2020, 03:23:36 pm
Wow, my prediction that Trump would lose it over the Pfizer announcement was correct. Though that doesn’t mean I’m Nostradamus. Let’s face it, the Trumps are predictable. Both Trump and Don Jr say there was a conspiracy against Trump  ::)

Apparently, the CIA Director, Gina Haspel, is likely to face the axe too. No shortage of stupid people to take the place of the top defence and security people in Trump’s government.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 03:30:33 pm
More than a year ago I had a good laugh reading a Trump booster forum, they posed the question and then debated,

 "What do we do if Trump is really a nutter?"

It's amazing when you think about then try to rationalise the mindset behind the posing of that question on a Pro-Trump forum!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 10, 2020, 03:48:41 pm
Wow, my prediction that Trump would lose it over the Pfizer announcement was correct. Though that doesn’t mean I’m Nostradamus. Let’s face it, the Trumps are predictable. Both Trump and Don Jr say there was a conspiracy against Trump  ::)

Apparently, the CIA Director, Gina Haspel, is likely to face the axe too. No shortage of stupid people to take the place of the top defence and security people in Trump’s government.

Wasn't a very difficult prediction when they announce the vaccine as soon as he lost the election.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 10, 2020, 03:54:13 pm
Wasn't a very difficult prediction when they announce the vaccine as soon as he lost the election.
Woe is Donald!

Did he have an enemy, that's very surprising? :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 10, 2020, 04:28:41 pm
The footage of Biden with the boy with the speech impediment is interesting.  It has received an overwhelmingly positive response but his tactile and supportive behaviour is no different to what appears in the "pedophile" footage  ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 10, 2020, 04:28:52 pm
Pfizer understands full well that Biden will represent their interests with greater decorum and greater predictability than Trump.

P.J. O'Rourke said the following in 2016, about Hillary, but it applies to all politicians IMO, except one :

"I am endorsing Hillary, and all her lies and all her empty promises," O'Rourke continued. "It's the second-worst thing that can happen to this country, but she's way behind in second place. She's wrong about absolutely everything, but she's wrong within normal parameters."

That last sentence is the clincher for me. Most politicians are standard-issue-dodgy and standard-issue-grubby. Biden, Obama, Clintonsx2, Bushx2...........but Trump is a law unto himself, completely off the charts in any category when compared to others. For every one dodgy thing you can find about Biden etc., you can find dozens about Trump. He is so far outside of "normal parameters" it's not funny.

The choke hold that he has had on political debate is suffocating. 4 years of non stop reporting on his latest tweet, gaffe, insult, sacking. Any interest in actual policy has been completely swamped by endless sh1t. I would defy anyone to name 5 policies of Trump's era without using google. We cannot focus on anything of substance while he is in office.

If you are a Trump fan, I don't see the point of trying to find dirt on Biden or anyone else. It's a mug's game, and you will be on an absolute hiding to nothing. His list of indiscretions is so far ahead of other pollies. He will undoubtedly go down as the worst president in US history, an embarrassing episode that I for one hope is never repeated.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 10, 2020, 04:35:36 pm
I would defy anyone to name 5 policies of Trump's era without using google. We cannot focus on anything of substance while he is in office.

That's easy Paul:
1. Make America great again.
2. Build a wall.
3. Have a trade war with China.
4. Allow Encourage bigotry to flourish.
5. Cure COVID-19 by injecting bleach.

 :(
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 10, 2020, 04:38:31 pm
Wasn't a very difficult prediction when they announce the vaccine as soon as he lost the election.
Studies are double-blind. That means Pfizer didn’t know who had taken the vaccine and who had taken the placebo. That information wasn’t unmasked until last Sunday. I know Trump has a problem with unmasking generally but at least no Russians were involved on this occasion  :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 10, 2020, 05:06:06 pm
David and Mav in fine form this arvo... thank you for the belly laughs, fellas!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 10, 2020, 08:37:47 pm
Quote
Quote from: PaulP on Today at 04:28:52 PM
I would defy anyone to name 5 policies of Trump's era without using google. We cannot focus on anything of substance while he is in office.

While I’m at it:
6. Trash natural and cultural heritage protection.
7. Fire anyone who displays competence and/or basic morality.
8. Employ family members in roles far beyond their capacity.
9. Seek and follow advice from said family members rather than the content experts.
10. Buy Greenland.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 10, 2020, 08:54:05 pm
Wow! The Dow is up 1700 points since Election Day. And Trump loved to say only he could drive up the sharemarkets ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: dodge on November 10, 2020, 09:03:05 pm
The markets had priced in Democrats gaining control of both houses some time ago.   With this more unlikely, confidence that the wildly centre- right Democrats won't get anything disadvantageous to wealth through parliament,  business can proceed as normal.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 10, 2020, 09:05:45 pm
So, it’s a vote of confidence in Biden.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: dodge on November 10, 2020, 09:15:23 pm
More that he doesn't have unfettered access to increase taxes and other 'anti- wealth' policies
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: kruddler on November 10, 2020, 09:16:35 pm
Wow! The Dow is up 1700 points since Election Day. And Trump loved to say only he could drive up the sharemarkets ...

Haven't you got something better to do?

Pointing out Trumps flaws is very low hanging fruit. Its like shooting a deer in headlights.....who is also tied up.....and tranquilised....and standing under a bright neon sign saying kill me pointing at it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 10, 2020, 09:21:53 pm
Relax, Dodge, I had my tongue firmly in my cheek. The most obvious reason for the rise in the Dow is the announcement by Pfizer. But this just makes a nonsense of the way Trump tried to claim the credit for every rise and disown every fall. But I’m sure he will tear out his hair (or whatever that is on his head) if the Dow keeps on rising after he exits stage left.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: kruddler on November 10, 2020, 09:26:54 pm
Relax, Dodge, I had my tongue firmly in my cheek. The most obvious reason for the rise in the Dow is the announcement by Pfizer. But this just makes a nonsense of the way Trump tried to claim the credit for every rise and disown every fall. But I’m sure he will tear out his hair (or whatever that is on his head) if the Dow keeps on rising after he exits stage left.

Its just the constant trump ribbing....its beneath you, and all of us.

Lets just pretend it was all just a dream and never utter his name again.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 10, 2020, 09:34:48 pm
I reckon Trump owes us a bit of fun given what he put us through over the last 4 years  :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 10, 2020, 10:04:20 pm
Dow and the Asx are up due to the positive vaccine news and the USA election result, not Biden winning but because the Republicans will hold sway in the Senate which will create stability rather than having the Democrats being able to force lots of changes.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 10, 2020, 10:05:46 pm
Its just the constant trump ribbing....its beneath you, and all of us.

Lets just pretend it was all just a dream and never utter his name again.

You may have noticed that I never refer to the POTUS by name, although I'm more than happy to name Biden, Obama, Bush (X2), Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Nixon, etc, etc
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 10, 2020, 10:16:21 pm
Dow and the Asx are up due to the positive vaccine news and the USA election result, not Biden winning but because the Republicans will hold sway in the Senate which will create stability rather than having the Democrats being able to force lots of changes.

The Senate is tied at 48 each and won't be finalised until run-off elections are held.  Whichever party wins will have a small majority and, as we know, voting on party lines isn't a thing in the USA.  Interesting times ahead and hardly the stuff to encourage the Dow to rise.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 10, 2020, 10:51:00 pm
The Senate is tied at 48 each and won't be finalised until run-off elections are held.  Whichever party wins will have a small majority and, as we know, voting on party lines isn't a thing in the USA.  Interesting times ahead and hardly the stuff to encourage the Dow to rise.
Stockmarkets work on sentiment.....reality usually catches up later.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 10, 2020, 11:14:11 pm
It won’t be long before the Republicans have 50 seats. They’ll win in both Alaska and North Carolina in the next few days. Unfortunately, the seat in North Carolina was eminently gettable for the Democrats but their candidate was caught out chatting up a woman (not his wife) over a messaging app. Only 48% of the votes in Alaska have been counted, so maybe McConnell will hand back the seat because of obvious fraud.

The Democrats need both seats in the Georgia runoff to take the majority. Even though both parties will have 50 seats in that case, Kamala Harris will have a casting vote as VP.

But if the Democrats win only 1 of the runoff elections, the Republican 51-49 majority would mean McConnell couldn’t lose 1 Republican vote when considering any Bill or the Democrats will be able to pass it. Susan Collins, Mitt Romney, and Lisa Murkowski have shown some willingness to vote with the Democrats, so it is possible the Democrats won’t be shut out completely. On the other hand, there are Blue Dog Democrats such as Joe Manchin who are conservative enough to win in Red States like Montana. They may side with the Republicans on fiscal constraints.

But a mere seat’s advantage has much more importance than just voting down Bills. McConnell will control Senate business. In the current Senate, he was able to kill Bills by refusing to put them before the Senate when he knew they would pass with bipartisan support. He decided what would go before the Senate and when. Republicans would also control the Senate Committees, meaning the Republicans could block Biden’s Cabinet and Judicial nominees. This is what happened with Merrick Garland - he was a moderate nominee who would have had the votes if he went before the Senate but his nomination was blocked in the Judiciary Committee. Then there are sundry investigations Senate Committees could launch in the hope of creating another Benghazi “scandal”.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 11, 2020, 08:26:37 am
Love Biden’s cap!

https://images.app.goo.gl/9ReZeMqQRzwPAAzQ6 (https://images.app.goo.gl/9ReZeMqQRzwPAAzQ6)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 11, 2020, 08:30:05 am
"Let's Make America Great Again"

"We Just did"

Actually, that is pretty good.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 11, 2020, 08:31:06 am
https://twitter.com/jeremypiven/status/1325166603311304706?s=07
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 11, 2020, 09:18:19 am
https://twitter.com/jeremypiven/status/1325166603311304706?s=07

 :))  :))  :))
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on November 11, 2020, 09:44:20 am
(https://i2.wp.com/thepoliticalwarroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/WKNDATBIDENS.jpg?fit=764%2C675&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 11, 2020, 10:09:51 am
The Senate is tied at 48 each and won't be finalised until run-off elections are held.  Whichever party wins will have a small majority and, as we know, voting on party lines isn't a thing in the USA.  Interesting times ahead and hardly the stuff to encourage the Dow to rise.
Actually, this is the stuff that makes the DOW rise.

The Dow dislikes uncertainty.

A republican or Democrat majority with same president in power, leads to volatility, policy creation on the run, and a lot of undoing of previous implementations surrounding tax law, fiscal stimulus, strategy regarding environment, energy, war etc etc etc.

When the senate is split, there are a lot more checks and balances, and voting that eradicates the volatility, and the DOW likes that more than any party or person elected, because they know that the next 3 years will look roughly like the last 3 years.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 11, 2020, 11:40:02 am
Actually, this is the stuff that makes the DOW rise.

The Dow dislikes uncertainty.
I don't think there is one formula fits all, because there is an equally large part of the financial market that makes just as money from instability.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 11, 2020, 11:51:06 am
As true as that is LP, financial markets still like certainty irrespective of whether or not some industries can make money from instability.

The lack of clear direction is a bigger concern than anything else, because the market is all about confidence.  Hence why Vaccine news causes a lot of stocks that are still having a lot headwinds rise exponentially.  Did you see what happened to energy and travel stocks particularly yesterday?  Surged by a ridiculous amount on the assertion we have a vaccine with a 90% success rate, with no real data to back it up.

FLT rose 16% on open.  Flight centre.  A company that released a capital note scheme to fill its coffers with money so they can remain liquid, whilst only making 12% of previous profits, which who knows what that does to its balance sheet.  Why?  because we "might" have a vaccine which means that they can finally start planning at returning to profit.

THAT is an example of what confidence can do to financial markets and what I am talking about.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 11, 2020, 11:59:26 am
THAT is an example of what confidence can do to financial markets and what I am talking about.
I agree that it's a good thing, but I just worry that the part most loudly being touted is just a very small part.

Flightcentre is a great example, because in total it's a tiny fraction of the tourism and holiday trade. Locally small domestic vendors are gearing up for the biggest holiday season on record, because of the very same circumstance that Flightcentre rallies against! But you won't see it reported, because the myriad of smaller vendors are not a large monolithic entity that garnishes media support. Yet fiscally as an impact on the economy the small vendors add up to far more than Flightcentre ever will!

Sure, somebodies retirement fund or pension might be linked to a publicly listed company like Flightcentre, but not everyone's, and all those small vendors have superannuation, buy and employ locally. Some academics have even argued that the demise of a monolith like Flightcentre is more than compensated for by local small vendor growth, increased regional employment and a global reduction in emissions. But you won't read News Ltd reporting the last part!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 11, 2020, 12:07:42 pm
As true as that is LP, financial markets still like certainty irrespective of whether or not some industries can make money from instability.

The lack of clear direction is a bigger concern than anything else, because the market is all about confidence.  Hence why Vaccine news causes a lot of stocks that are still having a lot headwinds rise exponentially.  Did you see what happened to energy and travel stocks particularly yesterday?  Surged by a ridiculous amount on the assertion we have a vaccine with a 90% success rate, with no real data to back it up.

FLT rose 16% on open.  Flight centre.  A company that released a capital note scheme to fill its coffers with money so they can remain liquid, whilst only making 12% of previous profits, which who knows what that does to its balance sheet.  Why?  because we "might" have a vaccine which means that they can finally start planning at returning to profit.

THAT is an example of what confidence can do to financial markets and what I am talking about.
Yep....Corporate Travel went up about 18% based on sentiment....there are no extra planes flying or any travel happening its all about confidence and sentiment and thats where the easy money gets made by the big boys.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 11, 2020, 12:19:40 pm
Yep....Corporate Travel went up about 18% based on sentiment....there are no extra planes flying or any travel happening its all about confidence and sentiment and thats where the easy money gets made by the big boys.
They come from a base that's lost billions / trillions!

At the moment, it's a bit like buying a $100 lottery ticket, and celebrating that it's won $5.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 11, 2020, 02:31:41 pm
I'd suggest you would need to be very diligent and read the fine print on the Trump "Save America PAC", to make sure just how your donated money could be spent.

Saving America or saving Trump?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 11, 2020, 03:55:27 pm
They come from a base that's lost billions / trillions!

At the moment, it's a bit like buying a $100 lottery ticket, and celebrating that it's won $5.
Corp Travel Management(CTD) went down to around $4 during Covid and is around $20 now....thats a 5 bagger, not many investments where you can make 5 times your initial investment in such a short space of time. Like I said thats based on sentiment and confidence, nothing practically has changed for the company to justify that rise other than a feeling travel will return sooner than later and that the economic landscape will be steady as Thry suggested.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 11, 2020, 04:23:07 pm
Corp Travel Management(CTD) went down to around $4 during Covid and is around $20 now....thats a 5 bagger, not many investments where you can make 5 times your initial investment in such a short space of time. Like I said thats based on sentiment and confidence, nothing practically has changed for the company to justify that rise other than a feeling travel will return sooner than later and that the economic landscape will be steady as Thry suggested.
Meh, it's a good story, I don't know enough about CTD. But if they are like the entities I've used for brokering corporate travel or offering security and advice I think they are more comparable to the regional / local vendors than a monolith like a Qantas, Virgin or Singapore Airlines owned booking agency. A new business jet appearing in the market can boost a boutique company or division, and won't even deliver a ripple to the big boys, reminds me of the rumours surrounding Boom boosting Little's fortunes with his boutique terminal project.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 11, 2020, 04:39:52 pm
Meh, it's a good story, I don't know enough about CTD. But if they are like the entities I've used for brokering corporate travel or offering security and advice I think they are more comparable to the regional / local vendors than a monolith like a Qantas, Virgin or Singapore Airlines owned booking agency. A new business jet appearing in the market can boost a boutique company or division, and won't even deliver a ripple to the big boys, reminds me of the rumours surrounding Boom boosting Little's fortunes with his boutique terminal project.

CTD have a market cap of 2.33 Billion which compares to Flight Centre @around 3 Billion.
You would have doubled you money on Flight Centre and Webjet if you had bought in at the Covid lows.....so CTD was the favorite travel stock with punters.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 11, 2020, 05:04:04 pm
CTD have a market cap of 2.33 Billion which compares to Flight Centre @around 3 Billion.
You would have doubled you money on Flight Centre and Webjet if you had bought in at the Covid lows.....so CTD was the favorite travel stock with punters.
Fair enough EB1, but again you can find those that profit relative that those who don't.

If a Flight Center shareholder bought in a year ago today, at this moment they've lost 80% of their money, the reports paint them a Rembrandt using their own blood! Most of these losing are Mum and Dad investors, people who can't afford the loss, they probably bought in off the back of identical booster language a year ago!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 11, 2020, 05:05:16 pm
The power of distribution tools (GDS) and cornering the market are just massive.  Not the storefront at all.  Backend commissions and APIs rule sales.  Hectic business
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 11, 2020, 05:11:26 pm
Fair enough EB1, but again you can find those that profit relative that those who don't.

If a Flight Center shareholder bough in a year ago today, at this moment they've lost 80% of their money, the reports paint them a Rembrandt using their own blood! Most of these losing and Mum and Dad investors, people who can't afford the loss, they probably bought in off the back of identical booster language a year ago!
The ASX was badly over valued last year and due for a pullback, Covid was the catalyst, Flight Centre was way too expensive at around $40....a lot of mum and dad investors would have had it for the dividend and be very light on this year.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 11, 2020, 05:29:39 pm
Yep.  I missed FLT at 9.80.  Im not interested in it after it started to run, and I am staying away as their next couple of years will be turbulent and they are raising capital to stay solvent.

It could go pear shape, and its why I chose them as the example of just how much sentiment can flick on hopes and dreams, let alone stability and a certain future.

I am not interested in getting bags.  I poured roughly 20k into the asx since march as i recognised an opportunity, and I avoided consumer discretionary, info tech, and travel like the plague.

Where did I go heavy?  Oil, and financials.  Completely smashed for no reason, pay dividends representing ROI, and will get back eventually.

2 to 3 years tops and if I can triple my cash Im good. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 11, 2020, 06:06:22 pm
Yep.  I missed FLT at 9.80.  Im not interested in it after it started to run, and I am staying away as their next couple of years will be turbulent and they are raising capital to stay solvent.

It could go pear shape, and its why I chose them as the example of just how much sentiment can flick on hopes and dreams, let alone stability and a certain future.

I am not interested in getting bags.  I poured roughly 20k into the asx since march as i recognised an opportunity, and I avoided consumer discretionary, info tech, and travel like the plague.

Where did I go heavy?  Oil, and financials.  Completely smashed for no reason, pay dividends representing ROI, and will get back eventually.

2 to 3 years tops and if I can triple my cash Im good. 
I bought some more banking stocks while they were cheap and also some Magellan.
Did invest in some  IT with Dicker Data which I owned already and had a nibble at some Sydney Airport which I preferred to picking a individual travel stock. Not a fan of cyclicals like Oil, Iron ore etc but did add to a few other positions like utilities, REITS while they were cheap. I'm looking more for reliable dividends than growth stocks these days...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 11, 2020, 06:20:53 pm
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/sam-newman-slammed-over-vile-tweet-about-joe-biden/news-story/8d0b61312259f88fe4f03e811a3f2dcc

Yep, a class act right there.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 11, 2020, 06:28:30 pm
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/sam-newman-slammed-over-vile-tweet-about-joe-biden/news-story/8d0b61312259f88fe4f03e811a3f2dcc

Yep, a class act right there.
Sam is missing the footy show and struggling without the attention, not sure if he actually says the stuff he says
with malice, its more about him being in the headlines again and trying to stay relevant. Think he needs a hobby....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 11, 2020, 06:42:26 pm
Sam is missing the footy show and struggling without the attention, not sure if he actually says the stuff he says
with malice, its more about him being in the headlines again and trying to stay relevant. Think he needs a hobby....

Hmm, I think it's more of a case of a leopard never changing his spots - granted I never watched it, but I'll confidently assert he was as big a knob head back when the show was on.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 11, 2020, 07:06:13 pm
Sam once had a motor vehicle accident with a car driven by my now late brother in law, Jim.  Sam leapt out of his car and stormed towards Jim's car.  Jim was a decent size, say 185cm and 95kg, but relatively small compared to Sam.  Jim got out of his car and Sam turned and ran back to his car, locked the doors and refused to get out.

He's a malevolent bully with attitudes that would fit right in with the worst of the Dark Ages raiders.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 11, 2020, 10:40:10 pm
I bought some more banking stocks while they were cheap and also some Magellan.
Did invest in some  IT with Dicker Data which I owned already and had a nibble at some Sydney Airport which I preferred to picking a individual travel stock. Not a fan of cyclicals like Oil, Iron ore etc but did add to a few other positions like utilities, REITS while they were cheap. I'm looking more for reliable dividends than growth stocks these days...

There have been some solid companies way oversold and some dogs the other way.

For the most part I've gone for solid blue chip companies that have a history of paying dividends.   Some health, a staple, some materials,  solid companies.  Household names the lot, and even some that manufacture plasterboard and property.

At one point i was getting nervous because some of them are underperformed, but this is my 20 year retirement plan and im going to compound interest off dividends along the way. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: bratblue on November 11, 2020, 11:18:24 pm
After losing over 100k during the big fall I rejigged and sold off some and went heavily with those that pay fully franked dividends and are solid long term, one bank and mining then some funds. I find my broker fairly useless now and shy away from anything he recommends. lol Fortescue, who he told me to avoid, have been brilliant and I get over 100% return per year from my original investment.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on November 12, 2020, 12:40:48 am
There have been some solid companies way oversold and some dogs the other way.

For the most part I've gone for solid blue chip companies that have a history of paying dividends.   Some health, a staple, some materials,  solid companies.  Household names the lot, and even some that manufacture plasterboard and property.

At one point i was getting nervous because some of them are underperformed, but this is my 20 year retirement plan and im going to compound interest off dividends along the way. 
I'm heavily in the Blue Chips, Utilities, Reits/trusts, supermarkets and the big LIC's and ETF's, still keeping a good portion of cash as well not that you get much in the banks these days but I sleep better than being 100% in stocks.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: bratblue on November 12, 2020, 08:25:28 am
I'm heavily in the Blue Chips, Utilities, Reits/trusts, supermarkets and the big LIC's and ETF's, still keeping a good portion of cash as well not that you get much in the banks these days but I sleep better than being 100% in stocks.


I think you need about two years of spending in cash so you can ride out the inevitable storms.  It crossed my mind to sell everything before it hit the fan here but because of that buffer I decided not to..  Whilst I've recovered most of the losses there were some real bargains at the height of the storm.

The sharemarket is gambling and highly capitalist which would have made my leftist uni self disown  or even shoot me. lol
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 12, 2020, 08:34:29 am
The sharemarket is gambling and highly capitalist which would have made my leftist uni self disown  or even shoot me. lol
You don't have to be left, you just have to be honest and observant to understand the impact of investments. I've had so many opportunities to build a fortune that have been scuppered by social morality that I dread reviewing the history. If you are happy to be a bastard you can make crap loads, but it always comes at somebody or somethings expense. My biggest "miss" was refusing to buy shares at $0.01 each when Rupert wanted to make a takeover of the company I worked for. They basically gifted shares to the employees of the company and asked them not to sell, thinking the price would be too high for Rupert to buy enough of them, but it wasn't and he bought them at $16.50 to gain control. I've several former work-mates who became multimillionaires overnight from that one deal. The price was, thousands of unskilled workers ended up redundant losing their jobs, replaced by automation.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: bratblue on November 12, 2020, 09:30:54 am
Jerry Rubin became a stockbroker and got runover jaywalking.  I've still got a copy of Steal this Book.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 12, 2020, 10:36:17 am
I'm heavily in the Blue Chips, Utilities, Reits/trusts, supermarkets and the big LIC's and ETF's, still keeping a good portion of cash as well not that you get much in the banks these days but I sleep better than being 100% in stocks.

Agree. 

I could have put more in, but I thought, best not to in case it all goes to hell in a handbag.  If COVID was as bad as they first said, my initial strategy would have seen me lose a fair amount of that initial investment but I was prepared to double down to average down the purchase price on each stock in case the recovery was short lived, or COVID protracted.

FWIW, this week has been the first real sign of recovery, but I think there are heaps of headwinds ahead, and scope for that to change once the share market works out that even if the vaccine were ready to administer today, it would take almost a year to vaccinate enough of the worlds population to provide the required amount to resume normality in earnest.

The fact that we are still in a testing phase, they need to manufacture it to a level where it can be administered.  IMHO, best case scenario sees at least another 12 months of restrictions to normality.

Markets are optimistic and forward looking though.  If I didnt have capital gains tax to consider plus larger long term gains to think about, I would likely take profits and buy back in once the market inevitably realises we have a long way to go by then though, its hard to know just how high things will lift.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 18, 2020, 09:36:42 pm
The POTUS is implementing his scorched earth strategy as a final gift to the American people.  He is lower than sharksh1t 😡
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 20, 2020, 11:23:22 am
(https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.177%2C$multiply_0.7554%2C$ratio_1.776846%2C$width_1059%2C$x_0%2C$y_51/t_crop_custom/q_86%2Cf_auto/ef22f40f459c9d94cc801b1fc4a5f3c1d33b747e)
Keeping up the bullcrap always gets the better of people, eventually they talk themselves into a sweaty dead end!

FMD, how old is this guy, hair dye, confidence in a can? :o

I suppose there is no age that is immune to vanity, and vanity just makes admitting you are wrong so so much harder! ;)

I suppose that is why some religions, have Vanity ( aka Vainglory ) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanity) as one of the big ones ( Seven Deadly Sins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins) )!

It has occurred to me that the reason some of the legal teams are bailing might be because there is no money in it for them, they aren't being or won't be paid! Sort of makes sense of the begging emails. While those that cling on to Trump's coat tails are unable to let go the promised carrot, the promised pot of gold, the golden egg, but they seem to me to be a tad foolish if they think that licking the Trump Goose bum is going to deliver a golden surprise, examining his history it appears delivering golden turds isn't part of Trump's  DNA, but there will be other types of turd delivered a plenty from all openings!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: jeza on November 20, 2020, 01:02:33 pm
What a bunch of B-graders.

Holding press conferences outside adult book stores, laughed out of court the next - now works himself into such a sweaty frenzy his hair dye runs down his face.

Credibility off the charts.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 20, 2020, 11:42:22 pm
Forgive my ignorance but why does how old someone is or how they look have anything to do with the price of fish??
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 21, 2020, 01:18:39 am
Forgive my ignorance but why does how old someone is or how they look have anything to do with the price of fish??

It doesn't ... I'd ask Joe but he'd take a week to reply.  THAT'S way more important
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 21, 2020, 10:57:10 am
Forgive my ignorance but why does how old someone is or how they look have anything to do with the price of fish??

Age is a factor when it’s associated with the natural decline of intellectual capacity and judgement.

More telling is Giuliani’s use of cheap hair dye and his obvious discomfort with a fairly straightforward line of questioning.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 21, 2020, 12:47:41 pm
We’ve all met eccentrics who are good people. When you get to know them, you ditch your initial impression.

But unfortunately, there are those whose eccentricity ends up being a pretty good indicator of the evil lurking within. That’s Guiliani. He presents as an evil clown and that’s exactly what he is. He’s as corrupt and dishonest as they come and he’s attempting to assist in a coup against a democratically-elected leader. Forgive us if we don’t treat him with respect.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 21, 2020, 03:03:08 pm
Age is a factor when it’s associated with the natural decline of intellectual capacity and judgement.

More telling is Giuliani’s use of cheap hair dye and his obvious discomfort with a fairly straightforward line of questioning.

Sorry mate I'm drawing the line at the hair dye.

Being ageist isn't ok either, he's the same as his peers.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 21, 2020, 03:29:21 pm
Forgive my ignorance but why does how old someone is or how they look have anything to do with the price of fish??
Confidence in a can is a tell about someone who has years of public speaking confidence, previously he was clearly setup up yet quite willing to doodle his noodle in front of a young fake reporter, though never seemed to break a sweat in that circumstance, then appears to hyperventilate towing the Trump Goose line!

He doesn't believe what he is saying, the proof is running down the face of a lifelong career public speaker, and it shows due to the confidence in a can!

If at his age he's making those mistakes, and selling his soul to the highest bidder leaving his vanity exposed, he deserves derision!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 21, 2020, 11:40:10 pm
When you start ridiculing people for hair dye or simply being old, you've lost your argument irrespective of how valid it might be.

You don't even need to do this with these guys so why do it?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 22, 2020, 12:17:11 am
I cant see a problem with folks dyeing their hair.
Half of my family of a similar age to me do it. ;)  ;D

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 22, 2020, 12:36:39 am
The Emperor's New Clothes!

It's a tell, as much as people do not want it to be!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 22, 2020, 07:14:08 am
I'll let the wife and daughters know >:(
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 22, 2020, 07:31:56 am
The Emperor's New Clothes!

It's a tell, as much as people do not want it to be!

When you can ridicule someone's policies, ethics, code of conduct, rotten tactics, and a laundry list of undesirable activities, then electing to attack how they look says more about the person attacking than the person being critiqued.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 22, 2020, 08:23:19 am
It's like worrying about Biden's hair weave ... bread and circuses
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 22, 2020, 09:22:02 am
I often think that when folks have a dig at Giuliani and his running hair dye it's not so literal as a metaphor. And as a metaphor, it is very telling and somewhat comical.

And there's something about seeing bullies and thugs (Trump/Giuliani etc.) 'get theirs' that many humans delight in. I think the German word for this is, schadenfreude - sort of delighting in the demise of another. Not our most impressive trait.

I recall reading decades ago about an address by Abe Lincoln to his troops and govt officials after the surrender of the South. He demanded, that to a man, none celebrate... none humiliate or abuse the defeated/captors, total humility and respect for the defeated was demanded. Rare bloke this Abe Lincoln fella.

But just to keep my personal hypocrisy in tact... I admit to delighting at the defeats of cheats.com.au and Rottingwood, ah, the schadenfreude glows brightly on those occasions.


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 22, 2020, 09:49:00 am
When you can ridicule someone's policies, ethics, code of conduct, rotten tactics, and a laundry list of undesirable activities, then electing to attack how they look says more about the person attacking than the person being critiqued.
The hair dye amplifying the presence of sweat running down the speakers face while responding to somewhat simplistic questions about Trumps claims is clearly a tell about the speakers mindset, no matter what spin observers want to put on it.

It's just a blatant exposure of the greater public lie! A moment akin to the narcissist being caught with a hand in the cookie jar!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 22, 2020, 10:11:28 am
The new right-winger’s guide to etiquette:
1. Don’t do what right-wingers do because it’s rude and detracts from civil discussions.
2. Right-wingers are exempt from rule 1 because coming from them it’s just ironic & “owning the libs”.

Example: Right-wingers are free to edit video to suggest Biden’s senile, use aging filters on his photos or superimpose his face on a resident of a nursing home in a wheelchair. Because that’s comedy gold and isn’t an attack on older people generally! But anyone who laughs at poor old Rudy’s hair dye fail is mocking every older person. It’s an outrage! If only I had some pearls to clutch ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 22, 2020, 10:36:23 am
The hair dye amplifying the presence of sweat running down the speakers face while responding to somewhat simplistic questions about Trumps claims is clearly a tell about the speakers mindset, no matter what spin observers want to put on it.

It's just a blatant exposure of the greater public lie! A moment akin to the narcissist being caught with a hand in the cookie jar!

I'm not sure it's a spin.
It's more about personal perception of what's actually happening.

I've been in similar situations.
Carrying a bit of weight, and racing to meet a deadline, ending up in a meeting perspiring heavily, while folks around me ask if I'm OK.
It had nothing to do with the pressure of the meeting...very low key.
You get a similar effect under strong lighting.
He could have a serious health issue, he hasn't looked well for some time (heart problem maybe.)
I just saw a bloke who was having a bit of a heat problem.
I can't really say what his mindset was.

I can't say I feel sorry for RG, but I do understand there may be a number of reasons for his appearance.





 

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 22, 2020, 10:58:52 am
True there could be many reasons, health no doubt, but regardless it's an indicator of duress or stress in an air-conditioned high technology Whitehouse Press Gallery that has a fraction of the usual occupation density in late November(Autumn).

I suspect most of the lighting would be the latest LED technology, probably donated or sponsored by a US manufacturer as a demonstrator, like many such government press facilities are! Go into our own State or Federal meeting rooms in Collins St office blocks and in the waiting areas you can read the plaques commenting on the donations made by local business to the facility. Lighting by X, audio provided by Y, furnished by Z, flooring provided by Q, etc., etc., it's a defacto showroom for local business and technology. I doubt the US misses that opportunity!

We can't apply domestic perspectives to those situations, the day to day experience of Joe Average is not relevant. If it's Joe Average getting up to speak even in front of a room of peers then I pardon the sweating, but this is a top silk that has been in the game for many decades!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on November 23, 2020, 09:52:04 am
The Trump House of Cards is waving in the breeze.....one decent gust and it's all over.

What is pathetic is the Republicans who sit there saying nothing about this farce in case they lose their own supporter base.

In the fullness of time, when there is no longer the possibility of recriminations, I think we will find out that the Trump 2020 campaign and subsequent legal challenges will be shown to have been the greatest con of all time perpetrated on the American public.  I wonder how the 74 million who voted for him will feel then?  And how could anyone possibly ever believe a word he (or Rudy) says ever again?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 23, 2020, 09:59:29 am
While I'm hopeful the crooks will be exposed, I suspect there will be a re-writing of history by the main stream media, primarily as a face saving exercise, and also to preserve their pay cheques. So I expect it to mostly fade away with a whimper.

I'm not sure Trump's creditors will go so quietly into the night, they are already leaking to the media and I suspect the only thing stopping a full on media onslaught is the ever so increasingly remote chance Trump finds a winning gambit in the election farce!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 23, 2020, 10:05:01 am
.............................. I wonder how the 74 million who voted for him will feel then?  And how could anyone possibly ever believe a word he (or Rudy) says ever again?

Those supporters are well past the point of no return. They will go to the grave believing a gross injustice has occurred and Trump was robbed. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 23, 2020, 10:07:18 am
Those supporters are well past the point of no return. They will go to the grave believing a gross injustice has occurred and Trump was robbed.
I suspect the truth will only be revealed and accepted as the wheels of a Trump bus roll over them, I can't help but feel sorry for them, it's an emotion that is Shakespearean in nature!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 23, 2020, 10:26:27 am
In a strange way what's happening with the  delay in conceding, and the dubious legal challenges being mounted are probably for the best.

It puts some distance between election day and a declared result..that allows some of the feelings of loss Republicans may be feeling to dissipate.
The extremists may yet cause some strife but the more reasonable Trump voters will move on.
As each day passes more and more folks accept the fact that it is indeed 'over'
As each new legal challenge is mounted and quickly rejected it confirms that there is really very little of substance in these challenges, and that is important.
The process is seen to be played out with every opportunity for the Trump folk to present their case...and fail to provide evidence of widespread wrong doing.

Trump's given up...he's more concerned with his golf game at the moment.
And the Republican support from senior figures will drop off fairly quickly in the coming weeks.
The thinking there will be 'lets see him off ASAP' so we can get our party back.
Apart from family, Trump really has very little around him that will 'stick fat'...self interest will come in a wave and the minions will be off faster than rats on a sinking ship, to distance themselves from him.
The only concern will be how to do that without alienating his strong base...they'll need them next time around.

There's a lot of untapped vote out there and another major election is only a few years away.
Lots of work to be done on both sides.
You see, even though they've turned out in unprecedented numbers....the real winner of the election is still  'couldn't care less, didn't vote'.

Total  number of Americans of voting age -253,768,092 (as at 2019)

Biden 79,787,724
Trump 73,767,408
Other 2,854,973
Don't really care/didn't vote 97,357,987






Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 23, 2020, 11:57:23 am
The Republican Party really has the tiger by the tail. It seems pretty obvious now that Mitch McConnell had hoped to keep Trump engaged in the Georgia runoff elections by humouring Trump’s claims that he won the election. No doubt he anticipated that Trump’s recounts & legal challenges would fail and Trump would then retaliate by calling on his voters to make sure Biden faces a hostile Senate. McConnell probably salivated at the prospect of Trump holding multiple rallies every day in Georgia right up to 5 January. Trump could have energised his supporters by telling them he’d run again in 2024 and the Georgia runoffs would be the 1st step in this run.

This may still happen, but I’m sure McConnell is worried. His Senators are starting to speak up against Trump’s attempts to strong arm State Republican lawmakers and officials into ignoring the vote in their States. Senator Pat Toomey from Pennsylvania defended the judge who threw out Rudy’s case, called on Trump to concede and congratulated Biden on his election to the Presidency. Trump has gone to war against the Georgia Secretary of State Raffensperger, a Trump supporter, for dismissing his complaints about election fraud and that has led to death threats directed at his family and him. If his attempts to enlist State lawmakers in Michigan come to nothing, he’ll probably blame them for his loss too.

There’s every chance Trump will end up blaming Republicans in Georgia and elsewhere for deserting him. In that case, McConnell will probably have to forget about Trump helping Loeffler and Purdue. He’d just have to hope Trump doesn’t call on his supporters to vote against them. Continual tirades on Twitter would be a real problem for the GOP.

Already, Trump’s claims of electoral fraud are creating problems down in Georgia. There’s a new MAGA-friendly social media network Parler and there are reports of angry conservatives saying that there’s no point voting as the Dominion electoral software will change the votes. Some are calling for voters to boycott the runoff elections. This is on top of Trump’s attacks on mail-in voting which Raffensperger blamed for depressing the GOP vote in Georgia.

Remember that some Trump voters aren’t committed Republicans. With Trump off the ballot, they may not bother to vote, And the more traditional Republican voters may not be impressed by Trump’s banana republic manoeuvres.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 23, 2020, 12:10:24 pm
The problem is Trump does this by pandering to the lowest common denominators as a side effect.

I appreciate the underlying mechanism might be the result of Republican Governors taking a utilitarian approach to Trump's public claims, but the risk are the nutters in the community!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 23, 2020, 12:51:47 pm
That’s not a risk as far as Trump is concerned: it’s a feature. He knows if he targets someone on Twitter, his followers will take up the attack using all methods fair or foul. And he loves it. I’d imagine that he would experience almost orgiastic pleasure on hearing that his latest punching bag is receiving death threats.

The thing that makes him dangerous for his fellow Republicans is that he expects them to act like they’re on his Secret Service detail. They have to be prepared to take a bullet for him, at least metaphorically-speaking. Instead of laying down their lives, they have to surrender their principles, their political futures and perhaps their liberty. For instance, the Georgia Governor, Brian Kemp, has been one of his most sycophantic supporters, right up there with Florida Governor, Ron De Santis. But Kemp’s certification of the Georgia vote has earned him vilification. Trumpsters are claiming without any basis that he was bribed by Dominion to use its software, thus opening up the big steal. Trump expects his supporters to break the law for him or else he’ll extract payback.

PS: Sidney Powell made the above claim about Kemp as part of Trump’s campaign legal team, threatening a Biblical lawsuit. But it appears the GOP has finally had enough. She has been dumped without explanation. Wonder what Trump thinks about that.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 23, 2020, 01:37:47 pm
So, does the sacking of Sidney Powell signal that the GOP has given Trump an ultimatum: stop attacking Republicans, particularly in Georgia, and dial down the crazy or Republicans will be free to recognise Biden’s win and call out Trump’s election manipulations?

I doubt if she was sacked simply for airing baseless conspiracy theories. They’re Trump’s MO and they play well to his base. I can’t believe a polite request from the GOP would have worked. Trump only cares about himself and not the Senate.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 23, 2020, 01:47:38 pm
It looks like many of the alleged contested locations are sick of wasting money on futile attempts anyway!

The Powell event is an interesting one, not sure what to make of that, .......... mixed messages? :o

Trump only cares about himself and not the Senate.
This is where the chaos comes from, it's clear the Trump argy bargy is damaging the GOP in many sectors. It would be interesting to see a poll now, what the outcome might be after recent events!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 23, 2020, 11:23:24 pm
The Trump campaign is trying to sell the idea that Sidney Powell was never part of its legal team.  :D

Pity Trump announced a week ago on Twitter that she was on the team and she spoke alongside Rudy Guiliani and Jenna Ellis at the bizarre press conference at which Rudy had his celebrated hair dye fail.

Imagine if he needs one day to throw Ivanka under the bus: “That blonde girl, I’ve never even met her. Maybe she got me a coffee a few times. What did you say her name was?”
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 24, 2020, 10:19:43 am
Michigan election results were certified a little while ago and now the GSA has announced it has “ascertained” Biden’s President-Elect status. This means the transition formally begins and Trump’s administration is legally required to co-operate (though Trump has never met a law he wouldn’t break).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 24, 2020, 10:49:55 am
Michigan election results were certified a little while ago and now the GSA has announced it has “ascertained” Biden’s President-Elect status. This means the transition formally begins and Trump’s administration is legally required to co-operate (though Trump has never met a law he wouldn’t break).
Seems like he's not going to fight it....for now. He's apparently given the go ahead for the transition on his part. Doubt we've  heard the last of the 'we wuz robbed' though...but it's full steam ahead for a President  Biden.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 24, 2020, 11:19:41 am
Gonna be interesting .... once the reality sinks in
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 24, 2020, 04:15:01 pm
Gonna be interesting .... once the reality sinks in

Was reading that there may be some legal actions planned challenging the integrity of the Dominion/Smartmatic voting system and that this is what Sydney Powell and her team are now focussed on. I guess we'll see very soon.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 24, 2020, 04:22:04 pm
Was reading that there may be some legal actions planned challenging the integrity of the Dominion/Smartmatic voting system and that this is what Sydney Powell and her team are now focussed on. I guess we'll see very soon.
Is that a technical analysis supplied by Russian or Chinese hackers? ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: cookie2 on November 24, 2020, 04:27:46 pm
Is that a technical analysis supplied by Russian or Chinese hackers? ;D

Don't know. I'll leave the speculation and crystal ball gazing to others.  😇
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 24, 2020, 04:34:45 pm
Trump’s court challenges have all been just for show. Guiliani and Powell have hoped the filing of court cases creates the impression that there’s a there there. Every time a hearing happens, the lawyers back away from alleging fraud and fail to present evidence. But right-wing media and social media don’t highlight the lack of evidence or the judges laughing the cases out of court. Instead, they concentrate on the out-of-Court allegations.

Given Sidney Powell is trying to peddle a conspiracy involving George Soros, the Clinton Foundation, the CIA, the Democrats, the late Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, bribes to governor Brian Kemp, and evil vote-switching software from Dominion, we might have to wait for Oliver Stone to direct the movie version.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 24, 2020, 05:12:06 pm
It's all over.
The reality is that Trump has never had the loyalty of more than a few hard core friends and family...and even some of those are a bit tentative.
Some right wingers along the way  have hitched themselves along for the ride but in most cases these 'associations' have been short lived 'marriages of convenience' which have quickly ended when these guys have realised Trump doesn't really share a passion for their cause. His only passion is the house of Trump.
There is no doubt he has inspired a genuine 'cult' amongst sections of society, many who could be considered extreme in their attitudes, but these were in the main folks of no real influence.
The best thing for Trump going forward i to move quickly through the transition period and inauguration..wait a few months and then resurface. He'll be like one of those little yappy dogs nipping at the heels. If Biden's a success his little yaps will just be noise.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 24, 2020, 05:25:00 pm
Trump's very studious, he's just following the teaching of Dylan Thomas!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 24, 2020, 05:26:00 pm


It's all over.
The reality is that Trump has never had the loyalty of more than a few hard core friends and family...and even some of those are a bit tentative.
Some right wingers along the way  have hitched themselves along for the ride but in most cases these 'associations' have been short lived 'marriages of convenience' which have quickly ended when these guys have realised Trump doesn't really share a passion for their cause. His only passion is the house of Trump.
There is no doubt he has inspired a genuine 'cult' amongst sections of society, many who could be considered extreme in their attitudes, but these were in the main folks of no real influence.
The best thing for Trump going forward i to move quickly through the transition period and inauguration..wait a few months and then resurface. He'll be like one of those little yappy dogs nipping at the heels. If Biden's a success his little yaps will just be noise.


Most people cant believe he ended up POTUS to start with.

Biden wont see out his term, and Kamala Harris will end up president which will hand the Republicans the next victory IMHO.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 24, 2020, 06:22:41 pm
The best thing for Trump going forward i to move quickly through the transition period and inauguration..wait a few months and then resurface. He'll be like one of those little yappy dogs nipping at the heels. If Biden's a success his little yaps will just be noise.

I reckon the two biggest motivators for the Orange Man to remain in power were, 1) He has to win. Losing is tantamount to death, 2) Now he can't hide behind the Presidency so those lawsuits will roll in. Very real chance prison time awaits him.

But the upside for Donny is that he never did have to show those tax returns... nicely dodged. One day his supporters will realise just how much they were duped/manipulated/used.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: kruddler on November 24, 2020, 06:42:51 pm
I reckon the two biggest motivators for the Orange Man to remain in power were, 1) He has to win. Losing is tantamount to death, 2) Now he can't hide behind the Presidency so those lawsuits will roll in. Very real chance prison time awaits him.

But the upside for Donny is that he never did have to show those tax returns... nicely dodged. One day his supporters will realise just how much they were duped/manipulated/used.

This was brought up recently by Ed Norton on twitter using a poker analogy.

Trump is in too deep. If he walks away, there are many lawsuits ready and waiting to get him.....and get him they will.
If he holds on and continues to bluff about his own lawsuits, he might bluff everyone and 'win'.
Reality is, everyone is calling his bluff and he has no other options but to continue bluffing.

The 'logic' behind bluffing and digging in is because he is trying to gain leverage to cover his own behind.
"OK, i'll give up all the lawsuits i've threatened......BUT....you have to give me immunity against all these impending lawsuits"
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 24, 2020, 07:14:37 pm
This was brought up recently by Ed Norton on twitter using a poker analogy.

Trump is in too deep. If he walks away, there are many lawsuits ready and waiting to get him.....and get him they will.
If he holds on and continues to bluff about his own lawsuits, he might bluff everyone and 'win'.
Reality is, everyone is calling his bluff and he has no other options but to continue bluffing.

The 'logic' behind bluffing and digging in is because he is trying to gain leverage to cover his own behind.
"OK, i'll give up all the lawsuits i've threatened......BUT....you have to give me immunity against all these impending lawsuits"
The pardoning thing is a bit dicey.
Can he pardon himself...seems a bit of a grey area...and opinion seems to favor a  'no'
Could he resign tomorrow and have President Pence pardon him?
Does a pardon apply  to legal actions across the board...criminal and civil?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 24, 2020, 08:22:33 pm
The pardoning thing is a bit dicey.
Can he pardon himself...seems a bit of a grey area...and opinion seems to favor a  'no'
Could he resign tomorrow and have President Pence pardon him?
Does a pardon apply  to legal actions across the board...criminal and civil?

I don't think there'd be much luck pardoning anything without a conviction. He'd have to confess, be convicted, then hope to be pardoned, all in less than two months! But if anyone would try, it'd be him. Personally, I reckon he'll continue to cry foul, maintain that he was robbed and is still the President whilst boarding a plane without an extradition agreement with the US... then Tweet his @rse off for the rest of his days... eventually dying in full and total denial with about 30 million loyal US supporters.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 24, 2020, 08:46:33 pm
The POTUS believes that he can pardon himself but I'm not sure that he had much support from learned legal minds.

I believe that the US Justice Department took the view that the POTUS cannot be indicted or prosecuted back in Tricky Dicky's day.  I think the reason was that it wouldn't be a good look, as well as blurring the separation of powers.  I guess it would also mean that  the issue of a POTUS pardoning him/herself should not arise.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 24, 2020, 08:54:31 pm
A conviction and sentence isn’t required for a pardon. Caspar Weinberger was pardoned by George H.W. Bush before he came to trial over his part in the Iran-Contra affair. Some think Bush did this to avoid evidence coming out in the trial which might implicate him. He acted on the advice of a certain William Barr.

There’d be nothing stopping Trump from resigning to allow Pence to become President after which Pence could pardon Trump. After all, Gerald Ford pardoned Nixon over Watergate (which is also an example of a pre-emptive pardon before any charges had been laid). I doubt if Biden would be stupid enough to pardon Trump and his cronies. Such an olive branch to the Republicans would be unlikely to soften their total opposition strategy and he’d provoke a rebellion amongst progressive Democrats.

The more interesting question is how general the pardon could be. Could it be for any and all offences against Federal law committed at any time prior to the pardon? Or would the pardon have to specify the crimes that are pardoned? It would be hilarious if Trump had to put together pages of bullet point crimes.

A pardon has no effect on civil cases. It does nothing to cancel any debts and it can’t stop E Jean Carroll’s defamation claim over Trump calling her a liar when she claimed in her autobiography that he raped her (penis into vagina).

A pardon also has no effect on criminal proceedings under State law. NY State is investigating Ivanka and the Trump Organisation over a dubious deduction claimed regarding a $750,000 payment to her for consultancy fees when she was an employee. This might be state tax evasion, falsifying business records etc.. No doubt realising that a pardon couldn’t save Daddy and/or her from prosecution, she complained bitterly over being harassed, poor thing ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 24, 2020, 09:11:26 pm
The DOJ policy against prosecuting a sitting President doesn’t apply once his/her term is over. Once the new President is inaugurated, charges can be laid unless the time for laying them has run out.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 24, 2020, 10:39:45 pm
Here’s the operative part of Ford’s pardon of Nixon:
Quote
Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9,1974.

So, it would be possible for Pence to pardon all federal crimes Trump, his family, and his cronies have committed over their lifetimes. Ain’t politics grand ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 25, 2020, 08:02:27 am
Here’s the operative part of Ford’s pardon of Nixon:
So, it would be possible for Pence to pardon all federal crimes Trump, his family, and his cronies have committed over their lifetimes. Ain’t politics grand ...
But it won't help against a stack of civil lawsuits.

I doubt Trump cares about the political stuff, politicians are making that bed and they know in the future they might have to lay in it. But the financial sector and creditors do not give a rats-arse whether Trump is Ex-Potus or Ex-Communicado! That whole industry is built on the tradition of stepping over your dead mother for a dollar!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 25, 2020, 08:50:37 am
A conviction and sentence isn’t required for a pardon...

There’d be nothing stopping Trump from resigning to allow Pence to become President after which Pence could pardon Trump...

Rather than the word 'conviction' to make a 'pardon' valid, perhaps if I said... 'did something wrong!' For a pardon to be issued there would have to be something to pardon! And even though that 'something' might not necessarily be specifically identified (which is crazy), there is still the reality that a perceived 'wrongdoing or doings' is or are being pardoned... and therein lies the issue for Donny, admitting he did something wrong or more to the point, having the world perceive him as having done something(s) wrong (failure - loser). Ego v accountability/reality.

What a war that would create within Donny's orange and yellow head. "I'm the greatest POTUS ever and really quite perfect (illusion) vs I've done something(s) wrong needing a pardon which is failure/loser (reality)." Or, continuing the charade of being Mr Perfect/Right but going to jail vs accepting a pardon to stay out of jail. Just one dilemma, on more of a psychological level, that the poor bugger would be negotiating. I find Mary Trumps insights in her book and on YouTube into her uncle and what makes him 'tick' very illuminating and helpful in understanding the mind of a text book narcissist.

Perhaps if Donny accepted a pardon but stated publicly that he's only doing it to keep others happy ('for others' = big man), to protect others (family / friends = more big man) and give him the opportunity to run again to save the people of America from the evils of anyone else at the helm but him (again, big man)... then he can continue to come out as Mr Wonderful as well as Mr Perfect and Mr Right all rolled in together (winner) - in his own head. There's around 45 million Americans who'll buy it straight away and keep sending him loot and attending rallies of adoration. (A recent survey said that around 65% of Republicans buy his crap).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 25, 2020, 09:51:07 am
Technically, a pardon doesn’t imply guilt. Some pardons have been given to people who’ve served their time and even those who’ve died to expunge guilt. But in the court of public opinion it might leave a stain.

I doubt that would worry Trump. If Pence ends up giving him a pardon, he’d say it was necessary to stop the Democrats persecuting him over fake news hoaxes and his supporters wouldn’t doubt that for a second. But I think he’d revel in the bad boy image anyway. He’s never been a guy who has presented himself as a moral exemplar. He wants to be seen as a strongman who’s beyond the reach of his enemies and above the law.

But it would make quite the double, wouldn’t it? He’d be an impeached President who received a pardon. That would put him one up on Nixon as Nixon wasn’t actually impeached. That would be sure to impress Roger Stone. Wonder if he has enough room left on his back for a tattoo of Trump?
(https://imgur.com/BNZp9Vl.jpg)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 25, 2020, 10:31:08 am
It seems that the POTUS can pardon himself:

https://www.9news.com.au/videos/us-election-2020/us-election-2020-trump-pardons-turkey/ckhwfe3oo000d0gp1u9ry9uvu
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 25, 2020, 11:16:45 am
Technically, a pardon doesn’t imply guilt. Now this is what does my head in... if a pardon doesn't imply guilt, WTF does it imply and what is its use then? Some pardons have been given to people who’ve served their time for a crime and even those who’ve died to expunge guilt from a crime or wrongdoing I presume. But in the court of public opinion it might leave a stain. That ship has well and truly sailed... outside of those 'rusted on' Republicans, the world knows that Trump is as guilty as all getout for all manner of crimes. I'm really only wondering what is going on inside his head (hence reading and watching Mary T's input - she knows him better than any of us, which helps prevent useless 2nd guessing).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 25, 2020, 11:22:06 am
It seems that the POTUS can pardon himself:

https://www.9news.com.au/videos/us-election-2020/us-election-2020-trump-pardons-turkey/ckhwfe3oo000d0gp1u9ry9uvu

Thanks David, bet it's beautiful in your part of the world today... sensational on the Island.

I wish they'd reported on Donny's response to the question of him pardoning himself from one of the journos. Would have been fascinating.

His media conference today was fascinating... 1 minute of how he and his administration has created the best ever Dow... though others are reporting the strong Dow is due to Biden's cabinet, especially their liking of the finance woman, who is apparently deeply respected by financial markets and gurus. Does his narcissism know no bounds... a rhetorical question of course.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 25, 2020, 12:20:00 pm
Remember, he warned that if Biden were elected, the Dow would crash. I guess he’d argue that Biden didn’t win and he did  ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 25, 2020, 12:53:17 pm
Trump’s 2018 Turkey Pardon Bizarrely Foreshadowed 2020 Election (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trumps-2018-turkey-pardon-bizarrely-foreshadowed-2020-election_n_5fbd767ac5b61d04bfa4e1a8), HuffPost.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 25, 2020, 02:19:44 pm
Remember, he warned that if Biden were elected, the Dow would crash. I guess he’d argue that Biden didn’t win and he did  ::)

Without attributing markets to any one person, place, animal or thing, the current rally on the back of middling vaccine news is doomed to fail.

Why?

They have become very forward looking on the back of the recent Vax news.  The ASX has well and truly gone into lift off.

I expect a correction will occur when the news drops on the back of how quickly vax can actually be given and become effective.  This is way too quick an economic recovery given the headwinds.

When you see current values so far above the moving averages its destined for a pull back.


Donnie can say what he likes about the Dow, but if you really want to see lift off, the stimulus package that they are waiting for will really kick it along.

So far, this is all shot in the arm stuff (so to speak) and economic foundations are very flaky currently.

Before anyone thinks to tell me otherwise, I started my investment journey in April/May, and bought my last couple of stocks about 4 weeks ago.

I am on paper ahead 20% and am looking at it, and thought my best case scenario had me here in about 12 months time.

I am even contemplating whether or not to jump out and back in on some of the ones I have bought because I see a massive correction on the news.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 25, 2020, 02:38:39 pm
The big boys are cashed up and mopping up heavily discounted commercial properties all over the country, perhaps Barangaroo will become the biggest of them all!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 25, 2020, 04:48:48 pm
Of course there is one other desperate measure open to Donny to somehow miraculously retain power, should he be diabolical enough - pick a fight with China and see it escalate to military exchanges. I bet he's thought about it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 25, 2020, 05:44:32 pm
Wouldn’t help him. Even FDR has to front up to an election in 1944 even though the US was locked in a war in both Europe and Japan. If Trump starts a war, it’ll be prosecuted by the military rather than Trump, so replacing Trump on 20 Jan would be no biggie. It’s not as though Trump would be in a bunker like Hitler was, poring over battleplans and taking charge of the campaign. At least Hitler had experience as a soldier. Trump used Trumped-up claims of heel spurs to get him out of serving in Vietnam. Just think of the brilliant schemes Trump would dream up; we saw how brilliant he can be when he suggested injecting disinfectant and dropping nuclear bombs on hurricanes.

PS: Interesting fact: General Douglas MacArthur was a candidate to be the Republican nominee to challenge FDR in the 1944 while serving as the Supreme Commander of the Pacific Forces. Dewey romped away in the Wisconsin Primary and that was that. But how does a General in wartime run against the sitting Commander-in-Chief?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 25, 2020, 06:39:34 pm
Thanks David, bet it's beautiful in your part of the world today... sensational on the Island.

I wish they'd reported on Donny's response to the question of him pardoning himself from one of the journos. Would have been fascinating.

His media conference today was fascinating... 1 minute of how he and his administration has created the best ever Dow... though others are reporting the strong Dow is due to Biden's cabinet, especially their liking of the finance woman, who is apparently deeply respected by financial markets and gurus. Does his narcissism know no bounds... a rhetorical question of course.

Beautiful here today Baggers even if I spoiled it a little by burning off.

Now that I know that the POTUS will be off like a piece of cheese in January, I can have a chuckle at his bizarre language and inability to grasp concepts that a sixth grader would be all over.  However, I still have concerns that he will cause another calamity before he’s shown the door.

I suspect that Biden will give him a pardon but he will still be hounded through the courts for years to come.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: kruddler on November 25, 2020, 07:29:44 pm
The pardoning thing is a bit dicey.
Can he pardon himself...seems a bit of a grey area...and opinion seems to favor a  'no'
Could he resign tomorrow and have President Pence pardon him?
Does a pardon apply  to legal actions across the board...criminal and civil?

I think the pardoning thing has been covered by others, but i think its as much about Immunity rather than a pardon.
With immunity he can't be charged.
A pardon is generally done after charges stick.....but not always as has been pointed out.
A pardon still does imply guilt in most peoples minds, whereas immunity does less so.

Either way, i reckon trump will take anything he can get....im just not sure if he will get offered anything.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 26, 2020, 11:14:56 am
The POTUS has pardoned Michael Flynn; predictable but perhaps not to the POTUS's advantage; Flynn is now not covered by the 5th amendment and could be required to answer questions that may implicate others.

It also seems that pardons can be voided if corrupt ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 26, 2020, 01:22:35 pm
On the low standard of proof used by Trump and his cronies when it comes to their own conspiracy theories (it feels like something’s going on & critics have to disprove them), there’s no doubt Trump pardoning Flynn and others after dangling pardons at a time they might testify against him was corrupt. But proving that in a court of law would be next to impossible. Ironically, he would then demand that type of conspiracy be proved beyond reasonable doubt by introducing cogent and admissible evidence. Hypocritical much?

Some suspected that Nixon did a deal with Ford that Ford would pardon him if he resigned. Ford rejected that accusation vehemently. He relied on a telephone call he made to Nixon in the presence of 2 witnesses in which he told Nixon he wouldn’t guarantee a pardon. Unless Trump and his lawyers are complete idiots (and that’s possible), Trump will have made sure he has plausible deniability.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on November 26, 2020, 01:58:11 pm
The Oligarchy that run the states wouldnt have rubber stamped Trumps presidency if they didnt want him privy to enough information that could bring down the lot.

He will get away with everything he is being accused of, unless they dont want him to, and in the process he will cause more trouble for them than its worth and they know it.

For anyone who thinks that he will actually face any adversity, they are in for a bit of dissapointment IMHO.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 26, 2020, 02:28:18 pm
NY ain’t going to pull any punches. Saying he’s going to withhold vaccines from NY shows he expects the NY prosecutors will keep on investigating.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on November 29, 2020, 07:52:27 am
https://theconversation.com/vital-signs-janet-yellen-the-very-model-of-a-modern-madam-secretary-150836
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 29, 2020, 02:04:07 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6hRDS3LvQQ
There was an estimate based on current infection rates, that delivering the same Trump style treatment regime to the infected percentage of the US population would cost US$4.5T, ($4,500,000,000,000)   .............. sure they were all getting it, ............. and vaccines are a waste of money! ::)

Trump offered $5B for exclusive US access to the vaccine, he knew exactly what COVID costs yet politically he chose to claim treatment was effective. His actions did not match his words yet his followers seem/are oblivious to the reality!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 29, 2020, 03:17:47 pm
In some ways, Covid is perfect for Trump’s base. It is far more deadly to black and brown people and the poor. White supremacists must think it was heaven-sent by their (White) God.

Even the poor and elderly amongst Trump’s base would focus on the harm it’s doing to those “others” rather than on the risks Covid poses to them.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 29, 2020, 03:43:14 pm
Been thinking....
I wonder what secret stuff Presidents really get told once they assume power. :D
...and what would cause one who's a bit of a loose cannon to reveal where the aliens are really buried. ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on November 29, 2020, 03:55:28 pm
Trump probably should have read some of his briefings as there was probably some really fascinating stuff in them. But he spent his Presidency saying stuff like “Someone should really look into that” as if someone else was President (and now someone else is). Maybe he forgot that he could get his minions to bring him the answers to just about any question he ever wanted to ask. But once he worked out how to use the remote control to watch cable news 24/7 and how to order cheeseburgers, his curiosity was sated.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 29, 2020, 04:32:40 pm
Of course there is one other desperate measure open to Donny to somehow miraculously retain power, should he be diabolical enough - pick a fight with China and see it escalate to military exchanges. I bet he's thought about it.

Iran is shaping as the more likely one.

Israel  has been blamed for the assassination of one of their top nuclear guys.
There was a story a few days ago that Trump had to be talked out of bombing Iranian nuclear sites.
Netanyahu's urging Biden not to re-adopt the Iran Nuclear deal.
Would Israel try and provoke something in the last days of a Trump Presidency....support will likely be a lot less for such actions under a Biden administration?
Would he find a willing partner in Trump?
It won't have an effect on the Presidential succession...but it would certainly give Biden a rocky start to his Presidency.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on November 29, 2020, 04:59:58 pm
Iran will behave itself.  Israel will see to that with or without Biden ... and with the overwhelming support of their oppressed population to effect regime change.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on November 29, 2020, 05:20:21 pm
Trump probably should have read some of his briefings as there was probably some really fascinating stuff in them. But he spent his Presidency saying stuff like “Someone should really look into that” as if someone else was President (and now someone else is). Maybe he forgot that he could get his minions to bring him the answers to just about any question he ever wanted to ask. But once he worked out how to use the remote control to watch cable news 24/7 and how to order cheeseburgers, his curiosity was sated.

What a spot on summation... though I would add one thing to the final sentence - golf. Cable news, cheeseburgers and golf.  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: kruddler on November 29, 2020, 06:40:51 pm
Been thinking....
I wonder what secret stuff Presidents really get told once they assume power. :D
...and what would cause one who's a bit of a loose cannon to reveal where the aliens are really buried. ;D

Its a bit like Men In Black i think. Aliens are everywhere, they are just hiding in plain site. America elected one with some not quite right orange hair recently.

"Elvis isn't dead, he just went home"

.....if only that was Trump
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on November 30, 2020, 11:02:19 am
Been thinking....
I wonder what secret stuff Presidents really get told once they assume power. :D
...and what would cause one who's a bit of a loose cannon to reveal where the aliens are really buried. ;D

I suspect that one or two are buried in what passes for his 🧠
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 30, 2020, 11:05:50 am
Been thinking....
I wonder what secret stuff Presidents really get told once they assume power. :D
...and what would cause one who's a bit of a loose cannon to reveal where the aliens are really buried. ;D
Trump can say whatever he likes, as it seems pretty much 100% of what he says is imaginary and nobody of any consequence takes any notice! ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on November 30, 2020, 01:29:12 pm
Trump can say whatever he likes, as it seems pretty much 100% of what he says is imaginary and nobody of any consequence takes any notice! ;D

I suspect it's not the folks "of consequence" we need to be concerned about. ;)
It's the "nutty no-counts."
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 30, 2020, 01:58:07 pm
Speaking of Trump.

I bought myself a new Trump Wedge today, first class cheating no more looking over the shoulder!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1xETD51M2Q
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on December 06, 2020, 06:20:59 pm
Biden has now passed the 270 certified electoral college vote barrier (three states are still to certify) so the outcome of the election is done and dusted.  Of course, the POTUS continues to maintain that he has "never lost an election"  ::)

Meanwhile, the runoff elections in Georgia are very tight and it may end up with the VPOTUS having the balance of power in the Senate.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on December 07, 2020, 10:29:35 am
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/trump-announces-that-rudy-giuliani-has-tested-positive-for-covid-19/ar-BB1bG78S?li=AAgfLCP

76 years old and lots of signs he hasn't been in the best of health.



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 07, 2020, 11:01:46 am
I’m not going to pretend to be sympathetic. He’s like the idiots who jump into the lion or tiger enclosures at zoos. If he dies from it as that idiot Herman Cain did, there’ll be 270,000 other dead Americans who deserve much more sympathy than he does.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on December 13, 2020, 12:02:36 am
The latest crazy court bid has come a gutser but I suspect that the POTUS will have to be carried, kicking and screaming, from the White House.

Meanwhile, the Republican luminaries are too scared of the POTUS’s “base” to put their hands up to run in 2024.  Added to that, one of the run-off senate candidates didn’t even show up for an arranged debate with his Democrat opponent 🙄

The POTUS-elect will have his hands full trying to sort out the mess he will inherit.  The Republican leadership will have their hands full trying recover their hijacked agenda.

It makes our politicians and our system look half decent 😳
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on December 13, 2020, 08:58:03 am
The POTUS-elect will have his hands full trying to sort out the mess he will inherit.  The Republican leadership will have their hands full trying recover their hijacked agenda.

The USA is like Humpty Dumpty.
No-one is putting it 'together' again.

The Trump presidency didn't 'create' division.
It 'exposed' division.

Beliefs and attitudes that were repressed were given a voice....but they were always there.

The scary thing is that....
Trump's been soundly beaten....but in the 4 years of his Presidency he's lost few voters, and actually gained many more than he had in 2016.
Imagine if you had someone charismatic, and also with a bit of political nous, harnessing those votes.
 


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on December 13, 2020, 09:32:34 am
Biden will soon know the rest of the world will be watching intently .... and when the natives are restless?   
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on December 13, 2020, 09:51:36 am
Wherever Trump has worked he's left a trail of destruction behind him... such is the nature of the narcissist. However, in true Machiavellian style, he sure knows how to appeal to the anger and fear in his base, and then grow it.

He has exposed, in grand style, the divisions within Republicans... then deepened them which is making his divide and conquer approach even easier. So easy to create and deepen fear and anger. Very easy. The greats of history seek to unite, not divide.

Trump will do his level best to create mayhem, even violence. Setting Yank against Yank, to appease and stroke his own ego and clinical narcissism, will delight him - he has a neurotic need to be right and adored. Biden, and democratically inclined Republicans, will have a helluva job cleaning up this mess.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on December 15, 2020, 08:18:56 am
Following the electoral college process is a bit like the watching the national draft when your first pick is in the mid 30s 🙄

At least we can be safe in the knowledge that the miserable excuse for a human being that is the POTUS will officially become a lame duck at 0900 AEST 🙂
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on December 15, 2020, 08:40:56 am
Following the electoral college process is a bit like the watching the national draft when your first pick is in the mid 30s 🙄

At least we can be safe in the knowledge that the miserable excuse for a human being that is the POTUS will officially become a lame duck at 0900 AEST 🙂

The problem is (hopefully not)... that may be just the trigger for the real trouble to begin. ::)
It's had the sense of a bit of a 'Clayton's unrest' since election day.



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 15, 2020, 09:45:20 am
You know it’s over when a Newsmax anchor utters the words President-Elect Biden. Now we’re just waiting on One America Network (OAN) and Breitbart to make it unanimous.

By the way, when white supremacists start killing people, don’t blame Trump. Sure, he told the Proud Boys to stand down and stand by, he told everyone the election was being stolen by Hugo Chavez, George Soros, the CIA and the rest, and GOP figures have asked Trump’s supporters to rise up and asked them whether they’re willing to die to stop the steal, but they’re just words. If anyone hears them and takes it too far, then that’s on them and no one else.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on December 15, 2020, 11:54:23 am
By the way, when white supremacists start killing people, don’t blame Trump. Sure, he told the Proud Boys to stand down and stand by, he told everyone the election was being stolen by Hugo Chavez, George Soros, the CIA and the rest, and GOP figures have asked Trump’s supporters to rise up and asked them whether they’re willing to die to stop the steal, but they’re just words. If anyone hears them and takes it too far, then that’s on them and no one else.

Seems to me it aint an either/or but rather a team effort/both. They understand the language that the orange critter speaks.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 15, 2020, 12:02:02 pm
Seems to me it aint an either/or but rather a team effort/both. They understand the language that the orange critter speaks.
 Yes, isn't the technical term incite?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 15, 2020, 12:08:39 pm
I couldn’t find the ironic/sardonic/sarcastic emoji. Trump will be responsible for any crap that goes down. The FBI has identified extreme right-wing groups as being the biggest domestic terrorism threat in the US and yet Trump has done everything he can to activate them.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 15, 2020, 12:15:41 pm
I couldn’t find the ironic/sardonic/sarcastic emoji. Trump will be responsible for any crap that goes down. The FBI has identified extreme right-wing groups as being the biggest domestic terrorism threat in the US and yet Trump has done everything he can to activate them.
I don't understand, it's all truth, he only speaks truth!

He's the least racist, most honest and straight talking person in America! I've heard this from many sources, the Mexican that carries his golf bag, the African waiter delivering his McDonald's order, the Sth American kid making the McDonald's order, the West Indian parking his car, and the Cuban gardener, they all confirm it, they love him so much they are all willing to work for a fraction of the legal wage!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on December 15, 2020, 01:39:36 pm
I’m still p1ssed off that he didn’t take his own advice and inject himself with bleach.  At worst, he could have lost his orange tint.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on December 15, 2020, 01:47:41 pm
Oh dear, I just watched a Republican Senator from Michigan state that they'll overturn the result on January 6th 2021 when govt reconvenes.  :o  ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on December 15, 2020, 05:01:29 pm
Oh dear, I just watched a Republican Senator from Michigan state that they'll overturn the result on January 6th 2021 when govt reconvenes.  :o  ::)

Fat chance!  The worst they could do is delay the process and engage in a series of unedifying debates that will cast further doubt on an already stressed democratic system.

It seems that Republicans are abandoning the POTUS and are lining to acknowledge Biden as the next president.  I suspect that, by 6 Jan 2021, the Republican Senator from Michigan will have fallen into line too.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on December 15, 2020, 10:17:15 pm
From a peer reviewed article likening the POTUS’s fixation with grievances to addiction:

Quote
Firm steps are necessary to limit the damage Trump’s grievances are inflicting on this country. We all have a role to play in halting the cycle of grievance and retaliation. But in the end, he is a human being who needs help. It should be offered with the same care, compassion, and, yes, forgiveness, offered to anybody else whose life—or nation—is being torn apart by addiction.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/12/12/trump-grievance-addiction-444570?fbclid=IwAR0LVb7kQ3bOS9x0O5VY0GzVETHBXJjtWTJcZ0p_calEpycg0I1GWUhx8eY
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on December 17, 2020, 11:34:41 am
From a peer reviewed article likening the POTUS’s fixation with grievances to addiction:

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/12/12/trump-grievance-addiction-444570?fbclid=IwAR0LVb7kQ3bOS9x0O5VY0GzVETHBXJjtWTJcZ0p_calEpycg0I1GWUhx8eY

Grievance and retaliation are symptoms of a greater mental health issue - narcissism/sociopathy in the case of Trump.

Sadly, these symptoms displayed by the orange bloke are not treatable like most addictions. Waste of time. Narcissists don't respond to therapy as there is a mechanism within them that prevents self-reflection and remorse.

I do feel sorry for Trump re his illness but far more for his victims. It's sad to see such a delusional character in full flight, but, again, much sadder to see the hurt and destruction that such a personality type wreaks.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 17, 2020, 11:38:30 am
Grievance and retaliation are symptoms of a greater mental health issue - narcissism/sociopathy in the case of Trump.
@Baggers

Delusional, or desperate?

Social media has a lot to answer for, the algorithms that decide what we see basically amplify outrage, by concentrating content that creates an emotional response or connection.

To avoid that happening not only must you be aware of how those algorithms work, you have to deliberate curate what you read or click on to keep a diverse feed, otherwise you are just a bitch to the algorithm's flow! ( Yes I know it's a sexist way of putting it, but it is also so appropriate! )

I can't get a consistent read on Trump, for much of the time he's a dead set Clark Kent and just runs with the rubbish claims, then occasionally if not somewhat rarely he does something quite clever. But he always returns to the baseline, Clark Kent, which reminds me of Jack Elliott. You just know, sooner or later, they'll go in the direction that best benefits them-self even if it harms the majority!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on December 17, 2020, 12:14:02 pm
@Baggers

Delusional, or desperate?


Both... and more.

There is no way the orange bloke will accept the will of the people. The only 'will' that matters to him, is his own. He is the centre of the universe in his mind... that's the reality. Grandiosity and self-interest are other hallmarks of the narcissist/sociopath. Don't worry, he will never give up. He will continue to manipulate and subjugate the law in any way possible to get himself back in the presidential chair.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 18, 2020, 10:44:03 am
Amazing: Trump supporters were betting big on Trump to win even after the vote count was swinging towards Biden:
Quote
Late that night, Fox News called Arizona for Biden, and Nevada started looking good for him, too. Overnight, new batches of mail ballots made Biden the clear favorite in Wisconsin and Michigan and suggested he was on a good pace in Pennsylvania. By the morning, Biden was a heavy favorite all over the market. And by 2:30 p.m. Eastern on Thursday, two days after the vote, Biden was -1100 and Trump was +575 at Bovada.

Through it all, Morrow said a huge majority of the money bet at his site remained on Trump—including “3- or 4-to-1” on Trump after the election.
How Offshore Oddsmakers Made a Killing off Gullible Trump Supporters, Slate. Click HERE (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/12/trump-betting-markets-sportsbooks-offshore-2020-election-gambling.html)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 18, 2020, 10:59:57 am
Stupid is as stupid does!

I heard a radio commentary that claimed a bunch of GOP Senators or other high profile movers and shakers are rallying against the vaccinations, on the basis that there are some potential deadly side-effects for some. While COVID is just a cold I suppose, .......... except for some! ::)

FYI, in the USA the COVID Death rate is hovering around 1.8%, 310K deaths from 17M cases, the serious long term effects(months to forever) of COVID cases hovers around 10%. This can range from rheumatic / arthritic effects, diminished smell, impaired vision or impaired hearing to heart or lung damage and even quadriplegia.

So far it's too early to tell, but the vaccination death rate is so far smaller than 0.01%, the long term side effect of specific COVID vaccines obviously cannot be determined yet as it is too early, but vaccines typically result in long term side-effect complications in 0.1% of cases, about the same as developing a food allergy.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 18, 2020, 11:33:54 am
Can’t imagine there’s much sympathy for the losing bettors. Trump would be outraged, of course. He’d be thinking that the bookies have stolen money from him as that money should have gone into his fraudulent legal defence fund. And of course Sidney Powell and Alex Jones wouldn’t be happy as that means less money for them. But let’s think of the poor prosperity pastors. How are they going to maintain their lavish lifestyles when their flocks have already been shorn?

It’s like watching predators fighting amongst themselves to gorge on an animal that one has brought down.

Ordinarily, you’d feel sorry for people being shamelessly ripped off. But unlike prey animals, these people run to the predators and feel good about being eaten. They are part of a movement dedicated to destroying democracy and enshrining minority rule. They aren’t innocent victims - they’re part of the problem.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 18, 2020, 12:44:49 pm
They aren’t innocent victims - they’re part of the problem.
A Christmas thought? ;D

I think their prejudice diminishes our sympathy, but I suppose they are no less victims, be it difficult to think of them that way. You just know if you offer them a hand in sympathy they'll bite it, it's that grievance addiction again, all their troubles and all the troubles of the world are somebody else's fault!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 18, 2020, 01:54:46 pm
Let’s face it, those idiots who bet on Trump despite the odds being way too skinny and those who contributed to Trump’s “legal defence fund” almost certainly signed on to Trump’s campaign to brand Covid as a Democratic hoax. They’d be the types to confront people wearing masks, yell at them and cough on their faces. It’s a two-fer: attacking democracy and spreading Covid.

Do I have even a bit of sympathy for them? Hell no! The world will be better off if their financial losses and disillusionment drives them to check out. Unfortunately, it’s more likely they’ll be driven to violence against truly innocent people.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on December 18, 2020, 02:01:07 pm
I have a different perspective.

I understand why Trump won.  Its unthinkable, but it fires a rocket into the political hemisphere and sounds a very loud warning.

"You imbeciles in your ivory towers are so disconnected from the very people you claim to have in your best interests, that they dont believe in you or your system anymore."

Electing Trump sends a very strong signal to everyone.  Improve, be better or else.  We would back in the worst candidate ever in front of you career politicians.

Its a very strong stance for the American people to take, and I believe one period of him as POTUS is hopefully enough to cause the waves it requires.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 18, 2020, 02:20:32 pm
If that was the aim, then they should have repudiated Mitch McConnell and ideologically inflexible congressional candidates. But McConnell has prospered by producing congressional gridlock. I don’t see how irrational toddler-like tantrums thrown by voters are going to have any positive effect.

I think Trump’s main appeal was to white supremacists. He did his best to turn back the clock to a whiter time. For that type of voter, improving their financial position was always a secondary concern. Entrenching their social superiority was worth more than money. If there were blue collar types who were stupid enough to think Trump would boost their finances, they would have been sorely disappointed. Why the hell would a so-called billionaire care about them? Instead, he gave the rich a tax cut and he and his family and friends made out like bandits.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 18, 2020, 02:37:50 pm
I think Trump’s main appeal was to white supremacists.
But he's the least racist person in the room! :o

btw., How clever is that, that is his genius, the more you highlight that contradiction the better it is for him!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on December 18, 2020, 02:46:56 pm
It has to be a bit more complex than that.
There cant be 70+ million white supremacists in the US.

What Thry said has some merit.
In a speech Biden made on election night, when he all but claimed victory, it was very clear that the 'politicians' had won back control.

The Republicans are like a leaky sieve at the moment.
They're  just trying to hold some semblance of unity until after the Georgia Senate election.
Then that unity will collapse and all efforts will be turned to putting the Trump era behind them.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 18, 2020, 02:59:28 pm
Why would the GOP suddenly become more reasonable? Trump has shown them they can succeed by playing to the Trump base. The more extreme they behave, the more seats they win and the more they raise funds. The majority of their congressmen signed on to the ridiculous Texas suit in the Supreme Court and few Republicans have called out the election fraud conspiracy theories.

Remember, this comes a decade after the Tea Party dominated the GOP. Now we have QAnon believers in Congress.

If the public was trying to send a message by electing Trump, they should have sent an explanatory memorandum to ensure the GOP didn’t misinterpret the message.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 18, 2020, 03:23:07 pm
There cant be 70+ million white supremacists in the US.

Well, white supremacist is probably a bit of a gross generalisation, but they all hate somebody and Trump harvests hate like it's a money tree,

............ er maybe there is the problem!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 18, 2020, 03:33:51 pm
By the way, Kelly Loeffler, one of the GOP Senate candidates running in the Georgia run-offs, has borrowed from Trump’s playbook. Trump disregarded the 3rd rail of US politics: don’t have anything to do with white supremacists. He suggested there were many fine people of both sides after the tiki torch March and violence  in Charlottesville. He failed to disavow David Duke, saying he didn’t know who he was (despite discussing him previously). He continuously retweeted memes from white supremacy sites.

Loeffler has learnt to parrot Sgt Shultz whenever she has posed for photos with well-known white supremacists:
Kelly Loeffler Keeps Posing For Photos With White Supremacists And Other Extremists, HuffPost:Click HERE (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kelly-loeffler-white-supremacist-american-patriots-usa_n_5fdbaec1c5b610200988c6dc).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on December 18, 2020, 05:28:16 pm

Well, white supremacist is probably a bit of a gross generalisation, but they all hate somebody and Trump harvests hate like it's a money tree,

............ er maybe there is the problem!

That's true but the thing is he doesn't just engender hate in one side he does it in both.

You know what I think his most effective weapon has been....and I reckon he's done a lot of it accidently, because he's a buffoon.
He's more a Chaplin than a Hitler.
That's not to say there aren't some evil and dangerous influences and ideas that he's triggered.
Dangerous folks that have felt empowered.

But...
He's also taken decent folks on the left with a good social conscience, good principles and a decent wish for a better world and turned them into 'haters',
As a result they hate not only Trump, but have directed that hate towards any that support him.
They deride those supporters, they're dismissive of them, they find them 'deplorable'
Even the ones who voted for him who may have gone into the booths 50/50
All who voted for him are tarred with the same brush.

Now if you tell folks their beliefs are reprehensible you don't change their opinions....you enhance them and you get them angry.
You add to the hate and you don't change their minds.
Now you may argue that it's a legitimate tactic, and it's the end result that matters, that right will eventually win out, but sadly that approach also comes with consequences and no guarantees.
The most likely result is that it drives the problem back underground.
The attitudes and values that folks possess are always there... Sometimes they're just hidden.
Trump doesn't create them, he gives them a voice and rallying point.
The best I think we can hope for is a generational maturity (we see it in the young) ...it's a slower process, but much more lasting and effective.

As far as the Republican party goes....Many in the GOP want Trump out of the way so the 'politicians' can regain control of their party. Like any organisation there are moderates and extremists.
It's a battle they have in the future. How to rid themselves of the Trump legacy yet retain his supporters.
A lot will depend on Trump's immediate future. State courts may take a lot of his attention, but if he's allowed to 'roam free' he is more likely to be disruptive of the party. He's certainly not a unifier.

Just curious...we're a 180+ pages into this thread.
I'd say we're mostly negative in our opinions of Trump
But has anyone really changed their opinion in all that debate.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 18, 2020, 08:51:02 pm
But...
He's also taken decent folks on the left with a good social conscience, good principles and a decent wish for a better world and turned them into 'haters',
As a result they hate not only Trump, but have directed that hate towards any that support him.
They deride those supporters, they're dismissive of them, they find them 'deplorable'
Even the ones who voted for him who may have gone into the booths 50/50
All who voted for him are tarred with the same brush.
Wow. I think you might be the one tarring with the same brush. I focussed on the fanatics who have signed on to the election fraud conspiracy. But apparently that means that anyone who voted for Trump, no matter how reticently, must be regarded in the same way. If you don’t think Trump’s base is rife with racism, you must have been in a coma for the last 4 years. The election fraud cases have all focussed on heavily black districts and it’s pretty hard to ignore the sentiment that they think blacks were allowed to vote too much.

Trump lost. His supporters lost. I don’t hate them. But I don’t have any sympathy for them. They don’t deserve to be coddled. The joke is they used to laugh at “snowflakes” who couldn’t handle losing to Trump. Now they can show how to handle losing with grace, although they’re not off to a good start.

The racist rump are probably going to be coddled by Biden, though I hope not. His self-image is that he can strike deals with everyone. I can just imagine him saying that he doesn’t want to upset those good folk who just love their Confederate “heritage” and he understands just how hard it is for cops to avoid killing unarmed black men, women and children.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on December 18, 2020, 11:30:27 pm
You seem to have taken it personally mav... and I guess in some respects my response was triggered by your comment that his 'main appeal was to white supremacists'
The fact is I'm not sure how 'you' feel about the more moderate Trump supporters...only you know  that.
I'm pleased though that you regard yourself as "decent folk on the left with a good social conscience, good principles and a decent wish for a better world." ;)

No, not all folks on the left feel that strength of antipathy towards Trump supporters.
That's not how I meant that to come across...but many do, and the point I was making is that normally measured folks I know have had feelings bordering on 'hatred' for anything that even smacks of pro -Trump or anyone who supports him.

Of course there is a racist background to his 'core' support.
That's where those 'people' live on the spectrum.
If they vote they're never going to vote Biden.
And yes, Trump does little to call them out as he should.

Yep, Trump appeals to a white supremacist group but he also appeals to conservative folk who may not like some of the changes (actual or proposed) occurring in their lives, average folks with no strong convictions either way but who are not sure about Biden, people who may not have fared so well under Obama but who have done a little better in recent times, folks in industries that they feel are under threat and who believe Trump is still the best option for their futures and  people who feel a little threatened by some progressive social agendas.

With a vote of seventy million plus there were numerous reasons folks voted for Trump...lots of them nothing to do with white supremacy




Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on December 18, 2020, 11:36:29 pm
You know, one of the weird things about political and social threads is this....
Everyone sits on a line between Gandhi and Genghis.
If someone is further up or down the line than yourself you'll get an argument....even if you're in the same half. ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 19, 2020, 01:32:49 am
The fact is I'm not sure how 'you' feel about the more moderate Trump supporters...only you know  that.
Why would anyone go after them? The strange thing is that Trump never sought to pivot towards the centre and instead played almost exclusively to his base. Biden, like Obama before him, is a centrist who wants to expand his base by adding moderates. He has already welcomed Never Trumpers and would be ecstatic if he could add moderate Trump voters as well. It’s not as though he is ideologically opposed to blue collar workers or those who are struggling.

I even give a thumbs-up to Chris Christie for advocating the use of masks after he caught Covid at the White House and for acknowledging Biden as the President-Elect.

But none of the corrupt Republican politicians who have pushed the bogus election fraud conspiracies should be given a pass even if they try to change their spots after Biden is inaugurated. What they’re doing isn’t business as usual in politics.

And the other group that should hang their heads in shame are:
people who feel a little threatened by some progressive social agendas.
This was exactly my point. Those who feel that their own status is undercut if discrimination is reduced don’t deserve sympathy or coddling. It doesn’t mean they should be hunted down and killed but they need to know they don’t have a right-wing veto over social change. Frankly, I don’t give a damn about their discomfort or feelings but I expect Biden will prefer to explain gently to such people that tolerance of minorities is a virtue. And if that just drives their intolerance underground, that’s better than the Karens thinking it’s their God-given right to impose their will on others.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on December 19, 2020, 10:32:35 am
I think you're ignoring a fact here.

Trump panders to his strongest audience.   Those who will drive his election.

Theyre the antithesis to the same left agenda that is pushing some very hard agendas regarding society and they capture the moderate vote.  They lose that vote when they go too far and start behaving in a very fascist way.

Id be intrigued to see how this election pans out without the death of George Floyd.   To me that was likely the biggest turning point.  Black Lives Matter was as much anti Trump as it was anything else.

Very interesting stuff. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 19, 2020, 11:24:34 am
The impact of BLM protests is a curly issue. The death of George Floyd may well have helped get out the vote in the black community. But the protests gave Trump a ready-made Law & Order appeal to white voters.

And then BLM protesters and progressives pushed the ‘Defund the Police’ slogan. I’d love to see “The Gruen” analyse that one. Taken literally, it meant that police forces would be disbanded. Maybe that’s what some extremists wanted, but most protesters meant that some money would be diverted from aggressive policing to crime prevention services. But how many white voters who would have voted Biden because they were turned off by Trump’s racism ended up voting for Trump out of fear that they might be victims of racial violence?

I reckon the biggest factor behind Trump’s loss was Covid. Perhaps voters punished his poor efforts to contain Covid although it seems he was mostly able to dodge responsibility for it. Among conservative voters, many were convinced it was a hoax and many thought Covid would have run rampant no matter who happened to be President. The more important consequence of Covid was that decades-long GOP voter-suppression strategies were rendered impotent. Early voting and mail-in voting were rapidly expanded and that made it easier for Democratic constituencies to vote. No wonder Trump was tearing his hair out over those changes. What he wanted was to force just about everybody to have to queue up on a working day, Tuesday, for hours. Of course, the lines in Republican areas would be short as there would be more voting centres open in those areas. But in Democratic areas, fewer centres would be open, fewer staff would be in attendance and for some reason broken machines would end up there. Lines would wend for miles, confronting voters with the waits of up to 10 hours in winter conditions.

What we can expect is that swing states with Republican Governors and legislatures will do their best to kill off early voting and mail-in voting in the next 4 years.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 19, 2020, 12:52:52 pm
The impact of BLM protests is a curly issue. The death of George Floyd may well have helped get out the vote in the black community. But the protests gave Trump a ready-made Law & Order appeal to white voters.
Yes, the general consensus seems to be the BLM reaction worked in Trumps favour, it put a lot of everyday people in fear including many African American small business owners.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on December 19, 2020, 08:24:09 pm
Well the orange one has gone to ground. When someone of his personality disorder type shuts up shop, you know he's up to no good planning / hatching some nefarious scheme!

I just heard that he's raised about a quarter a billion dollars from his supporters... and the loot has been siphoned off into an account administered by his daughter and son-in-law and a coupla other buddies!! How can this sh1te be legal? Wholesale ripping off but, apparently, there is some fine print which may save him - his followers are unlikely to read such things! He's been able to pay his legal bills with half of it...

Then, some military guru reckons Trump has the authority to order another election in the 4 swing states overseen by the military!!

I wonder if he's on the dogger to his buddy in Russia seeing if he can help out with the promise of a returned favour of some magnitude?

Coup by stealth? This sleazy pr1ck aint going away any time soon. January 20th can't come soon enough... then freeze his accounts pending an investigation.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 20, 2020, 11:45:54 am
Then, some military guru reckons Trump has the authority to order another election in the 4 swing states overseen by the military!!
I think the only military grade component of that opinion is the tugging?

I've heard a retired and a serving Major-General both state the same thing. Regardless of what the GOP politicians and alarmists state, it's the opinion of the military that Trump couldn't even launch a spud gun at the moment if he wanted to without bipartisan support, as far as the military are concerned the gig is now Biden's, and if Trump goes loco they'll just change the locks!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 20, 2020, 04:50:11 pm
Interesting that the election fraud conspiracists haven’t leapt on the news of the massive SolarWinds hack of US Government computer systems. Ordinarily, the tin-foil brigade behave like bower birds, incorporating anything interesting into their own reality. And this news was right down their alley: a foreign or other actor hellbent on gaining access to sensitive systems. Why didn’t they claim this proved their fears over election fraud?

Such a claim would have flown in the face of the facts. Dominion has stated that it’s platform didn’t utilise SolarWinds in any way. The other problem is that there is a paper audit trail: a hack of Dominion’s software might succeed in changing votes digitally but could not affect the paper votes retained by the states. There have been many hand audits of the paper votes which have confirmed the digital tallies in the battleground states Trump lost.

But just because the conspiracy flies in the face of the facts has never worried the conspiracy theorists to date as dozens of ridiculous court cases show. More likely is the fact that the Dear Leader had stayed silent about the hack while Pompeo and security experts blamed Russia. Trump’s base knows that blaming Russia is verboten in Trumpland, so they were in a pickle. QAnon fanatics could hardly do anything that would humiliate Trump, who they believe is Q.

But Trump has now given them their marching orders. He has furiously rebuked Pompeo for blaming Russia and has said it might be China. Phew! The election fraud conspiracy theory is back on track. Everyone knows that the election fraud conspiracy involves Hugo Chavez, Venezuela, George Soros, the Clintons, the Democrats, the CIA and FBI, and CHINA! It all fits together nicely now  :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on December 20, 2020, 08:47:35 pm
Interesting that the election fraud conspiracists haven’t leapt on the news of the massive SolarWinds hack of US Government computer systems. Ordinarily, the tin-foil brigade behave like bower birds, incorporating anything interesting into their own reality. And this news was right down their alley: a foreign or other actor hellbent on gaining access to sensitive systems. Why didn’t they claim this proved their fears over election fraud?

Such a claim would have flown in the face of the facts. Dominion has stated that it’s platform didn’t utilise SolarWinds in any way. The other problem is that there is a paper audit trail: a hack of Dominion’s software might succeed in changing votes digitally but could not affect the paper votes retained by the states. There have been many hand audits of the paper votes which have confirmed the digital tallies in the battleground states Trump lost.

But just because the conspiracy flies in the face of the facts has never worried the conspiracy theorists to date as dozens of ridiculous court cases show. More likely is the fact that the Dear Leader had stayed silent about the hack while Pompeo and security experts blamed Russia. Trump’s base knows that blaming Russia is verboten in Trumpland, so they were in a pickle. QAnon fanatics could hardly do anything that would humiliate Trump, who they believe is Q.

But Trump has now given them their marching orders. He has furiously rebuked Pompeo for blaming Russia and has said it might be China. Phew! The election fraud conspiracy theory is back on track. Everyone knows that the election fraud conspiracy involves Hugo Chavez, Venezuela, George Soros, the Clintons, the Democrats, the CIA and FBI, and CHINA! It all fits together nicely now  :D

 :))  :))  :)) yep, getting sillier by the day.

And those far right media channels (OAN & Co.) pedaling bullshizen re fraud are now in the sights of Dominion and the other vote counter org from California that I can't recall at the minute, with legal action, likewise FOX. Now that's a language they understand and are ducking and weaving and ensuring that any opinion from their 'guests' is identified as the guest's opinion and not necessary theirs. Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 20, 2020, 09:45:41 pm
I’d love to see Fox News taken to the cleaners but the 1st Amendment makes it hard to sue over political mudslinging. When the lies are coming from the White House and the President’s Campaign team/lawyers, FoxNews will be able to say it has to air them.

Fox News has successfully defended a defamation case by arguing that Tucker Carlson is just an entertainer and no one takes him seriously, and no doubt will argue the same in future if Tucker or other night time hosts are sued.

Will it be enough for Dominion to show that the election fraud stories were without factual foundations or will it be necessary to show the on air “talent” didn’t believe the stories were true? If it’s the latter, this may be difficult to show as the night time hosts are lunatics. Let’s face it, who really knows if Trump believes the stuff he spews out. Many people think he is genuinely deluded, and the same could be said of Rudy and Sidney Powell.

After Elon Musk won the defamation case brought by one of the rescuers of the boys trapped in the cave by saying that calling him a pedo guy didn’t mean he was accusing him of being a paedophile, it’s hard to see anyone being able to win a defamation case.

But I guess if Fox News doesn’t argue that their stories are true but wins only by arguing no one believes them or their presenters put them forward in good faith, that would be a win of sorts for Dominion and Biden.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 20, 2020, 10:07:02 pm
Trump has guaranteed that he’ll be universally regarded as one of the worst Presidents of all time. First, Covid spread unchecked in the US on his watch and the death toll will be greater than US forces have suffered in any war. Secondly, he has presided over the greatest intrusion into US systems by a foreign power and he displays complete indifference to it. Then there’s all the corruption, racism and the attempted coup. Future historians will be aghast.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 21, 2020, 10:06:01 am
Baggers, you’re right: Smartmatic has sued Fox and no doubt to help its defence Fox News has forced Lou Dobbs, Maria Baritomo and Judge Jeanne Pirro to run a pre-recorded segment debunking their own conspiracy theories :D

Can you imagine Trump watching that segment as he tunes in to his favourite wingnuts  :D

Watch here (https://mobile.twitter.com/atrupar/status/1340093301731504130)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on December 21, 2020, 10:27:03 am
Baggers, you’re right: Smartmatic has sued Fox and no doubt to help its defence Fox News has forced Lou Dobbs, Maria Baritomo and Judge Jeanne Pirro to run a pre-recorded segment debunking their own conspiracy theories :D

Can you imagine Trump watching that segment as he tunes in to his favourite wingnuts  :D

Watch here (https://mobile.twitter.com/atrupar/status/1340093301731504130)

A very deep shade of orange I suspect...

I wonder what Putin has on Trump to ensure his co-operation? A certain motel room video, perhaps?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 21, 2020, 10:52:13 am
They are just glorified News Readers, parroting away what comes off the teleprompter, if you give them any serious credence about having and broadcasting their own ideas you've gone too far.

Even when they conduct a live debate or interview the questions and response are feed to them via the earpiece, their real talent is to be able to read, speak and listen all at the same time!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 21, 2020, 12:34:03 pm
I wonder what Putin has on Trump to ensure his co-operation? A certain motel room video, perhaps?
Unfortunately, Biden seems intent on closing the book on Trump’s Administration for fear of angering Republicans. It’s pretty obvious, however, that the GOP will practice total opposition if they keep the majority in the Senate. They’ll run a new slate of Benghazi-style investigations through the Senate. But maybe Trump will annoy Biden enough by leaving behind special prosecutors to go after Hunter Biden and election fraud that Biden will allow a comprehensive review of Trump’s dirty doings. Imagine a special prosecutor gaining access to Trump’s taxes and financial documents and requiring Trump to attend for an interview. Even better, s/he would be able to require all of the pardoned co-conspirators to testify as they can’t plead the 5th. Then various House Committees could call the Special Prosecutor before them to find out what s/he’s learned.

Trump is apparently mulling over appointing Sidney Powell as a Special Prosecutor into election fraud (as well as declaring martial law)  :o

I wonder if Trump was dumb enough to invite the Russians to trawl through Government systems in the hope they could help him winkle out the Deep State? After all, he was the one who asked the Russians to go after Hillary’s emails (“Russia, if you’re listening ...”) and delivered up classified material to the Russian Foreign Minister in the Oval Office.

After watching General Flynn in action, will Americans lose their hero worship of military types. Man, that guy is a moron and total fruitcake. How the hell did he manage to end up as a General?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 21, 2020, 12:46:08 pm
After watching General Flynn in action, will Americans lose their hero worship of military types. Man, that guy is a moron and total fruitcake. How the hell did he manage to end up as a General?
You get there by being paranoid @Mav

Unfortunately, it's also the way they exit!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on December 21, 2020, 12:51:44 pm
MAV, nothing would surprise me in relation to the measures the orange one would stoop to to regain power and avoid accountability for his many crimes.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on December 23, 2020, 07:19:21 pm
Wow. Just wow.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/dec/23/pardons-sink-trump-further-into-swamp-of-his-own-shamelessness
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on December 23, 2020, 08:38:20 pm
Wow. Just wow.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/dec/23/pardons-sink-trump-further-into-swamp-of-his-own-shamelessness

The woman who is being put to death at the orange creature's behest, Lisa Montgomery (for murder), has a horror story of mental illnesses and physical and sexual abuse. The first woman to be put to death in the US for almost 70 years.

The people that the orange fella is pardoning are fair-dinkum some of the more reprehensible characters getting about the place.

Speechless.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 23, 2020, 08:45:22 pm
The pardons to the Blackwater murderers and border guard murderers are disgusting. I pity any country forced to play host to American “peacekeepers”. Murdered some civilians? No worries, that’ll make them fear you. I hope those ar$eholes are stupid enough to travel overseas and the International Court of Justice puts them on trial for war crimes.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 23, 2020, 08:45:56 pm
MAV, nothing would surprise me in relation to the measures the orange one would stoop to to regain power and avoid accountability for his many crimes.


Nothing surprises me with anything Americans do or say. I am dealing with them on a daily basis on a project, wouldn't feed them (Cap I know your missus is from the US so apologies  but ...)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on December 24, 2020, 12:05:57 am
Nothing surprises me with anything Americans do or say. I am dealing with them on a daily basis on a project, wouldn't feed them (Cap I know your missus is from the US so apologies  but ...)

I have American cousins G2C, and they’re from Texas.  They abhor the POTUS and have been very active in organising opposition to his corrupt regime.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on December 24, 2020, 10:32:34 am
Nothing surprises me with anything Americans do or say. I am dealing with them on a daily basis on a project, wouldn't feed them (Cap I know your missus is from the US so apologies  but ...)

Don't worry about that GTC, ever. :)  Probably after all our time together, she feels more for Australia than she does for the States.  Mad Carlton fan, loves our test cricket and our expressions.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on December 24, 2020, 11:26:57 am
Don't worry about that GTC, ever. :)  Probably after all our time together, she feels more for Australia than she does for the States.  Mad Carlton fan, loves our test cricket and our expressions.
No worries mate, as I said dealing with US clowns on a project at the minute, they are dead set embarrassing. Lots of hot air, very little substance and they use half a dozen engineers to do what it takes 2 or really good Aussie engineers to do. As for their Architects and structural engineers, good lord. No concept of how we use steel and concrete in Oz.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on December 24, 2020, 01:01:26 pm
Met many many Americans over the journey.  A good deal of them are incredibly ignorant.  What damns most of that lot is a completely misplaced arrogance.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 24, 2020, 02:28:14 pm
I think all societies are fundamentally the same, the bad reputations are usually generated by an ignorant minority that are twice as loud as the rational majority!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 24, 2020, 08:56:19 pm
The fools who used to mock Trump’s critics, saying they had Trump Derangement Syndrome, seem to have slid back into the slime from which they came. It’s never been more obvious that Trump is evil. Shame on Evangelicals and the GOP for enabling him.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on January 07, 2021, 08:24:43 am
The Orange One and his band of followers have stumbled to a new low today.  This guy is a threat not only to the USA, but to democracy everywhere.  

Banging on the windows of Congress and demanding your preferred candidate is 'reinstated' regardless of an election result is hardly what anyone could call democratic. 

The results of the Georgia Senate election would suggest that many middle-stream Americans are starting to think the same way. The GOP better get a handle on this sooner rather than later or Donald will send them into purgatory for many years.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 07, 2021, 10:03:42 am
I'm glad the media is reporting it as 'Angry Trump Rioters etc.' Lays the blame squarely at the feet of the creature who incited the riots, along with the rioters themselves.

Don't know why the media hasn't started labelling the Orange One and like minded GOPers as fascists or communists, as their stance on a democratically conducted election is very aligned with how fascists / communists 'take' control/power.

How sweet the run-offs - delivering 2 Democrats to take control of the senate. The Orange One will be blamed by more rational GOPers for this result.

In 13 days time it will be interesting to see how Trump & Family avoid prison over the coming months and maybe years.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 07, 2021, 11:24:01 am
At least he’s making it obvious and incontestable that he’s just evil. No one of any integrity will try to put lipstick on this pig in the years to come. There won’t be weak arguments that he was just shaking things up.

Mary Trump was spot on. She warned he would try to wreak havoc and revenge on his way out and there was no limit to how far he would go if not restrained.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 07, 2021, 11:33:01 am
Now we know why Trump got rid of guys like Barr & Esper who were only 99.999% loyal henchmen. He would have been terrified his cabinet would remove him under Article 25 when he let the crazy loose. All that’s left are fanatics who would happily drink the Kool Aid if he told them to do so.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 07, 2021, 12:01:00 pm
At least he’s making it obvious and incontestable that he’s just evil. No one of any integrity will try to put lipstick on this pig in the years to come. There won’t be weak arguments that he was just shaking things up.

Mary Trump was spot on. She warned he would try to wreak havoc and revenge on his way out and there was no limit to how far he would go if not restrained.

Your use of the word 'evil', Wing Man Mav, is so very, very appropriate with this creature. Many lessons to be learned and hopefully the 'decent' members of the GOP will create measures to ensure another monster like Trump can never rise to the Presidency.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Macca37 on January 07, 2021, 01:50:43 pm
Several years ago I visited a small cafe in Hepburn Springs run by an  American couple.

On one wall they had erected a large whiteboard with an outline of the USA drawn on it.  The larger states on the east and west coasts were outlined and named.

The centre of the map was empty except for the word "Dumbf---ersville".

How right they were.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 07, 2021, 04:49:05 pm
Not sure how we hold the media to account on this, the Murdoch's of this world, they made the evil creature or at the very least encouraged his growth.

I suspect the media changing it's tune now to condemn the behaviour is not because it's the right thing to do, but because they fear the next entity to be the focus of the riotous mob will be their own. Sorry for the cynicism!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 07, 2021, 08:40:53 pm
Apart from the NBA I cant see much point in the USA....Trump is a nutter but so are half the population....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 07, 2021, 10:48:16 pm
Apart from the NBA I cant see much point in the USA....Trump is a nutter but so are half the population....
 Not even sure that is sport anymore, more a theatrical gig.

An associate told me a startling fact before Christmas, apparently more than 85% of Americans over 7ft have spent time in an NBA list!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 07, 2021, 11:27:44 pm
Not even sure that is sport anymore, more a theatrical gig.

An associate told me a startling fact before Christmas, apparently more than 85% of Americans over 7ft have spent time in an NBA list!
Agree about the theatrics, its very much a one on one game of individual basketball, Aussie kids used to be taught the European way of learning the defensive basics first and running team plays but the NBA is about get it, go and shoot it.
You need 7ft players for rebounds and the odd easy dunk but its really about players who can shoot it from the car park ie Curry and take their opponent to the basket and score on them ie Lebron. Did see the 6ft Paddy Mills had about 7 x threes for the Spurs who I follow in a recent game, you could count the team scores from executed plays on one hand...
Basketball aside what we witnessed today was total anarchy at its worst, how does Trump sleep knowing people died after he whipped his followers into a state of frenzy....Pence has to pull the plug on Trump and get the rednecks back to the hills where they belong.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 08, 2021, 12:30:57 am
I’m guessing Trump has destroyed the possibility he could resign so Pence can pardon him. After Trump threw him under the bus after trying to strongarm him into blowing up the certification process, I can’t imagine Pence would do him such a favour. Let’s not forget Trump endangered Pence’s physical safety too.

If Pence were to pardon Trump, he’d commit political suicide. Ford guaranteed he’d lose the 1976 election by pardoning Nixon.

Trump will have to pardon himself and it’s an open question whether such a self-pardon would be valid.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 08, 2021, 07:52:28 am
Apart from the NBA I cant see much point in the USA....Trump is a nutter but so are half the population....
Just half? Thats unders by a long a way.
At least sanity has prevailed and the nutter has conceded and agreed to fork off peacefully on the 20th. Ironically, the shooting of that woman inside the Capitol Building was the trigger that stopped the chaos.. It would have got real ugly if not for that act I reckon. Absolute nut jobs.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 08, 2021, 08:57:20 am
I suspect that the modern-day Aurangzeb will continue foment trouble until he’s dragged kicking and screaming from the White House.

Surely Pence and the cabinet can see the threat posed by the evil, delusional, psychopathic cry baby and will use the 25th amendment to fark him off.  If they don’t, they are just as bad.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on January 08, 2021, 12:11:32 pm
I suspect that the modern-day Aurangzeb will continue foment trouble until he’s dragged kicking and screaming from the White House.

Surely Pence and the cabinet can see the threat posed by the evil, delusional, psychopathic cry baby and will use the 25th amendment to fark him off.  If they don’t, they are just as bad.



AURANGZEB......

You get to learn something new on this site everyday!

Can't help feeling that Aurangzeb may also be an old Hindi word meaning 'Orange One'....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 08, 2021, 12:40:52 pm
I suspect that the modern-day Aurangzeb will continue foment trouble until he’s dragged kicking and screaming from the White House.
So you're expecting the red terrorist to issue a Fatwah, that is if he hasn't done so already?

Hidden in his coat is the Red Right Hand!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: kruddler on January 08, 2021, 01:59:41 pm
Apart from the NBA I cant see much point in the USA....Trump is a nutter but so are half the population....
I gave up on the NBA a while ago.

NFL or bust for the yanks.

....and a few decent bands too.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 08, 2021, 08:22:03 pm
I gave up on the NBA a while ago.

NFL or bust for the yanks.

....and a few decent bands too.
Never got into the NFL,  we like our basketball and are Spurs fans but I get the negativity on the NBA from you and LP, its become less about high quality basketball and more about money and gimmicks to get the corporate/TV dollar.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: kruddler on January 08, 2021, 09:15:55 pm
Never got into the NFL,  we like our basketball and are Spurs fans but I get the negativity on the NBA from you and LP, its become less about high quality basketball and more about money and gimmicks to get the corporate/TV dollar.

I've been to 2 games of both.

Saw Kobe and the Lakers @ Home in a pre-season game and i reckon our training has better intensity and atmosphere.

Saw the Spurs v Clippers @ Spurs and even with the coyote (?) entertainment the atmosphere was largely poor.

In the NFL games, 1 @ Seattle, 1 @ Minnesota, the atmosphere was amazing. On 3rd downs, don't even bother trying to talk to the person next to you as they won't hear you. The extra entertainment was almost non-existent at the NFL, but thats because the real action was far superior to that of the NBA.

The NFL is a game of chess.
The NBA is game of memory.....the start is boring and its all about what happens right at the end.

I was a huge NBA fan in the 90's, but its not the same. Its so sanitary and boring now.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 08, 2021, 09:26:39 pm
Ahem

#notmypresident

Remember?  How short are people's memories 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 09, 2021, 12:16:54 am
Looks like Trump will be impeached again! Asst. House Speaker says it’ll happen on or before Wednesday. DOJ investigating him for inciting the riot.

However these moves end, at least they’ll occupy both of Trump’s brain cells. Let him think his latest “I’m shocked, SHOCKED! to find gambling is going on in here!” video worked and who knows what mayhem he’ll unleash?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 09, 2021, 12:22:22 am
Ahem

#notmypresident

Remember?  How short are people's memories 
Yep, how could anyone forget how the Republicans tried to delegitimise Obama. Trump’s Birther Conspiracy was nothing more than a racist attack and Mitch McConnell conducted a total opposition campaign expecting it would make Obama a 1 term President.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 09, 2021, 09:36:40 am
Looks like Trump will be impeached again! Asst. House Speaker says it’ll happen on or before Wednesday. DOJ investigating him for inciting the riot.

However these moves end, at least they’ll occupy both of Trump’s brain cells. Let him think his latest “I’m shocked, SHOCKED! to find gambling is going on in here!” video worked and who knows what mayhem he’ll unleash?

 :))  :))  :))  Gold. The line of the year thus far.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 09, 2021, 09:44:12 am
AURANGZEB......

You get to learn something new on this site everyday!

Can't help feeling that Aurangzeb may also be an old Hindi word meaning 'Orange One'....

I have to admit that a mate came up with this.  Until recently, I thought it was a play on words, aurangz = orange, but Aurangzeb was real and was the bloke who led the downfall of the Mughal empire.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 09, 2021, 11:11:33 am
Twitter has suspended Trump’s account permanently! And Apple is considering removing Parler from its App Store over content moderation concerns. Looks like he’ll soon be a modern Napoleon exiled to a digital island of Elba.

Wonder if he’s going to grant a pardon to all of the rioters. That would be immensely controversial given that a cop was killed and his murderers would get off scot free and the same would be true of the extremist who drove a van containing Molotov cocktails, a semiautomatic weapon and a handgun close to the Capitol building.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 09, 2021, 11:50:21 am
Twitter posted a statement concerning Trump’s suspension in which it asserted that it was motivated by attempts made by extremists to coordinate further attacks on the Capitol building and elsewhere before and on Inauguration Day and the fear Trump would use Twitter to incite them.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 09, 2021, 12:02:30 pm
Yep, how could anyone forget how the Republicans tried to delegitimise Obama. Trump’s Birther Conspiracy was nothing more than a racist attack and Mitch McConnell conducted a total opposition campaign expecting it would make Obama a 1 term President.

Nah I'm pointing out how neither side has a balanced opinion of politics.  They both behave like spoilt children and throw the toys out of the cot when they don't get their way and cannot faulty concede they've lost and also gloat when they win.

Its very 🇺🇸 thing to do.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 09, 2021, 01:11:43 pm
Wonder if he’s going to grant a pardon to all of the rioters.
He's already thrown them under the bus publicly, then 30s later encouraged them to fight some more!

How do the dumb fecks keep believing him, he keeps telling them he'll march besides them, and they cheer but he disappears?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 09, 2021, 01:21:28 pm
Nah I'm pointing out how neither side has a balanced opinion of politics.  They both behave like spoilt children and throw the toys out of the cot when they don't get their way and cannot faulty concede they've lost and also gloat when they win.

Its very 🇺🇸 thing to do.
I don’t like this type of “both sides” argument. There’s a boulder on 1 side and pebble on the other: there’s a rock on both sides. Go back over the last couple of decades and compare responses to presidential elections and you won’t find much to support your both sides argument. Just 1 example: how would Trump and his supporters have behaved if the last election came down to 500 votes in 1 State? Let’s add these details: Biden’s brother’s the Governor of the State and supports Biden’s attempts to stop further counting of votes and a Democrat-dominated Supreme Court shuts down further counting.  There’d be civil war. Instead, Al Gore issued a gracious concession and as sitting Vice-President presided over the certification of George Dubya’s electoral college win as Pence did a couple of days ago. And he did so with a smile and good grace. Far from retaliating with a campaign of total opposition, many Democrats in Congress even supported Bush’s ill-advised war against Iraq.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 09, 2021, 05:53:45 pm
I like this description (https://www.salon.com/2020/12/26/remember-that-stupid-thing-donald-trump-did-hard-as-it-is-to-pick-here-are-the-top-10/) of Trump by Amanda Marcotte:
Quote
Donald Trump is a dull, nasty and childish man — but his legacy of amazing idiocy will be long remembered

We're tentatively starting to emerge from the four year-long national nightmare of Donald Trump's presidency, but the reckoning of what the nation endured will take years to really understand. Trump was terrible in so many ways that it's hard to catalog them all: His sociopathic lack of regard for others. His towering narcissism. His utter ease with lying. His cruelty and sadism. The glee he took in cheating and stomping on anything good and decent. His misogyny and racism. His love of encouraging violence, only equaled by his personal cowardice.

But of all the repulsive character traits in a man so wholly lacking in any redeemable qualities, perhaps the most perplexing to his opponents was Trump's incredible stupidity. On one hand, it was maddening that a man so painfully dumb, a man who clearly could barely read — even on those rare occasions when he deigned to wear glasses — still had the low cunning necessary to take over the Republican Party and then the White House.

On the other hand, it was the one aspect of Trump's personality that kept hope alive. Surely a man so stupid, his opponents believed, will one day blunder so badly he can't be saved, even by his most powerful sycophants. That has proved to be the case as Trump fumbles his way through a failed coup, unable and unwilling to see that stealing the election from Joe Biden is a lost cause.


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 09, 2021, 11:14:05 pm
Nah I'm pointing out how neither side has a balanced opinion of politics.  They both behave like spoilt children and throw the toys out of the cot when they don't get their way and cannot faulty concede they've lost and also gloat when they win.

Its very 🇺🇸 thing to do.

With the greatest of respect Thry, that’s rubbish.

American politics has always been marked by the greatest respect of the constitution, the oath of office, and those who have held the offices of president and vice-president.  It’s only since the evil, bloated, delusional, psychopathic, failed reality TV personality lied his way to the presidency that things have changed.

The cry baby is the first POTUS to voluntarily decline to attend his successor’s inauguration.  That says it all!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on January 09, 2021, 11:33:45 pm
https://www.today.com/news/here-s-history-presidents-who-didn-t-go-their-successor-t205380

Not necessarily unprecedented.....but perhaps ominous.

If Trump's minions want to make a bit of a fuss at the inauguration it would be a bit 'awkward' if Trump was there.
I suspect Biden's plans will be additionally 'low key' given the Covid situation...and that might not be a bad thing.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 10, 2021, 12:06:18 am
https://www.today.com/news/here-s-history-presidents-who-didn-t-go-their-successor-t205380
 Interesting that history mostly tends towards the greatness of the President Elect in that list!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on January 10, 2021, 07:43:43 am
I'm quite pleased that Trump declined.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 10, 2021, 08:59:14 am
He's already thrown them under the bus publicly, then 30s later encouraged them to fight some more!

How do the dumb fecks keep believing him, he keeps telling them he'll march besides them, and they cheer but he disappears?

And the sad thing is, Spotted One, that they will somehow justify their 'guru's' behaviour. He betrayed them, manipulated them and used, and continues to use, them... and just like some warped and sad version of Stockholm's Syndrome, they'll empty their pockets for him and follow him anywhere and wholeheartedly believe the next load of bullshyte to slither from his evil lips.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 10, 2021, 10:17:59 pm
I don’t like this type of “both sides” argument. There’s a boulder on 1 side and pebble on the other: there’s a rock on both sides. Go back over the last couple of decades and compare responses to presidential elections and you won’t find much to support your both sides argument. Just 1 example: how would Trump and his supporters have behaved if the last election came down to 500 votes in 1 State? Let’s add these details: Biden’s brother’s the Governor of the State and supports Biden’s attempts to stop further counting of votes and a Democrat-dominated Supreme Court shuts down further counting.  There’d be civil war. Instead, Al Gore issued a gracious concession and as sitting Vice-President presided over the certification of George Dubya’s electoral college win as Pence did a couple of days ago. And he did so with a smile and good grace. Far from retaliating with a campaign of total opposition, many Democrats in Congress even supported Bush’s ill-advised war against Iraq.


https://www.google.com/search?q=burning+trump+effigees&oq=burning+trump+effigees&aqs=chrome..69i57.5657j0j9&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Check the #notmypresident on Instagram.

Last president impeached was a democrat. 

Look, I understand the truth is uncomfortable but im simply pointing at hypocrisies.

If you disagree that's fine, but IMHO i find it hilarious and hypocritical.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 10, 2021, 10:28:41 pm
With the greatest of respect Thry, that’s rubbish.

American politics has always been marked by the greatest respect of the constitution, the oath of office, and those who have held the offices of president and vice-president.  It’s only since the evil, bloated, delusional, psychopathic, failed reality TV personality lied his way to the presidency that things have changed.

The cry baby is the first POTUS to voluntarily decline to attend his successor’s inauguration.  That says it all!

If you are going to call my opinion rubbish don't bother adding with greatest respect. 

Its pointless.

The toys being thrown out of the cot by democrats for the last 4 years. 



Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 10, 2021, 11:27:16 pm
The toys being thrown out of the cot by democrats for the last 4 years. 
@Thryleon‍  What do you mean by this, can you give me an example of what you refer to?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 11, 2021, 01:38:22 am
Maybe he thinks the Democrats should have been okay with Trump seeking political help from other countries. Russia, Ukraine & China, quite the trifecta. And why did he act like the Siberian Candidate whenever Putin was concerned? Why has there been no response whatsoever to the biggest ever foreign intrusion into US Government systems? And I mean NO RESPONSE WHATSOEVER. Why did Mnuchin break the law by refusing to show Congress Trump’s tax returns?

We really are in the theatre of the absurd now. You must be implying that Trump was a good and decent President who has been unfairly resisted by political opponents. But the guy is a criminal who is totally unfit to be President. His latest outrage, fomenting insurrection with a riot that killed 5 people, puts that beyond doubt. But that was merely the culmination of criminality, corruption, racism and bastardry that has been flagrantly displayed since the start of his presidency. Right from the start, he made it clear he would coddle white supremacists and right-wing nutters such as QAnon despite the FBI’s consistent warnings over the years that right-wing extremists were the biggest threat when it comes to domestic terrorism.

Your other implication is that this was always just partisan politics. Strange you haven’t bothered to deal with Trump’s Birther attack and Mitch McConnell’s Dr No impersonation, because I think you’ll find the GOP has been the party that has the problem with bipartisanship. But Trump isn’t just another GOP guy. He invaded the GOP like toxoplasmosis, taking control of it and its representatives. He taught them how to love Russia and the Klan. Fears that a malignant narcissist would do damage to the USA and by extension Australia took us all to a much different place than whether your typical Republican would start stupid wars or try yet again to show trickle down economics can work provided you give enough tax breaks to the rich.

Poor Hitler. Right from the start, he had enemies who were trying to bring him down. And that Winston Churchill always seemed to be at his throat.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on January 11, 2021, 08:35:53 am
Left wing nutters, right wing nutters. No difference except there are a lot more lefties.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 11, 2021, 09:01:44 am
Left wing nutters, right wing nutters. No difference except there are a lot more lefties.



I doubt that is true, MBB. But the one thing I am sure of is that far right nutters are much, much more dangerous.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 11, 2021, 09:10:39 am
Maybe he thinks the Democrats should have been okay with Trump seeking political help from other countries. Russia, Ukraine & China, quite the trifecta. And why did he act like the Siberian Candidate whenever Putin was concerned? Why has there been no response whatsoever to the biggest ever foreign intrusion into US Government systems? And I mean NO RESPONSE WHATSOEVER. Why did Mnuchin break the law by refusing to show Congress Trump’s tax returns?

We really are in the theatre of the absurd now. You must be implying that Trump was a good and decent President who has been unfairly resisted by political opponents. But the guy is a criminal who is totally unfit to be President. His latest outrage, fomenting insurrection with a riot that killed 5 people, puts that beyond doubt. But that was merely the culmination of criminality, corruption, racism and bastardry that has been flagrantly displayed since the start of his presidency. Right from the start, he made it clear he would coddle white supremacists and right-wing nutters such as QAnon despite the FBI’s consistent warnings over the years that right-wing extremists were the biggest threat when it comes to domestic terrorism.

Your other implication is that this was always just partisan politics. Strange you haven’t bothered to deal with Trump’s Birther attack and Mitch McConnell’s Dr No impersonation, because I think you’ll find the GOP has been the party that has the problem with bipartisanship. But Trump isn’t just another GOP guy. He invaded the GOP like toxoplasmosis, taking control of it and its representatives. He taught them how to love Russia and the Klan. Fears that a malignant narcissist would do damage to the USA and by extension Australia took us all to a much different place than whether your typical Republican would start stupid wars or try yet again to show trickle down economics can work provided you give enough tax breaks to the rich.

Poor Hitler. Right from the start, he had enemies who were trying to bring him down. And that Winston Churchill always seemed to be at his throat.

Im not under fire here.  Just pointing out the hypocrisies.

Attack Trump all you like.  Im not a supporter.  I find it ironic that he's being attacked in the same manner he is being accused of attacking others.

So either he is the devil for being that way or you are attacking what you dislike about yourself in the process.

The blm rioting was far more dangerous than anything else that has occurred.

Im not convinced he incited rioting even though others are.  The words Fighting against racism isn't inciting racism and actual fighting is it?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 11, 2021, 09:13:43 am
@Thryleon‍  What do you mean by this, can you give me an example of what you refer to?

#notmypresident

Who was the last us president beheaded and burnt by gen public even if it was just a doll?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on January 11, 2021, 09:44:21 am
I have to admit that a mate came up with this.  Until recently, I thought it was a play on words, aurangz = orange, but Aurangzeb was real and was the bloke who led the downfall of the Mughal empire.
In fact, on quick glance at the Aurangzeb story, it seems Donald may have lived a previous life.....

History is never all that kind to polarising characters like Donald Trump - eventually, most of the bad stuff percolates to the surface until someone years later says 'how the hell did they put this guy in charge?'.

I dread to imagine some of the stuff he might have done if he had a second term, and was not facing re-election in 2024 (with no voter backlash to deter him).  Hopefully the GOP will make sure he doesn't get a another shot at it.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on January 11, 2021, 09:47:02 am
I doubt that is true, MBB. But the one thing I am sure of is that far right nutters are much, much more dangerous.

Disagree, the media just like to paint it that way.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 11, 2021, 09:52:00 am
I doubt that is true, MBB. But the one thing I am sure of is that far right nutters are much, much more dangerous.

The extremist Marxist-Leninist terrorists of the 70s and 80s had disappeared by the 90s and the present day far left is relatively benign in comparison.  The far right seems to have stepped up and their acts of terrorism are becoming more frequent.

Far left, far right, militant anarchists, religious fundamentalists and populist leaders; the world would be a better place without them.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 11, 2021, 09:54:43 am
Who was the only President to retweet images & video of him depicting him using violence against those he brands enemies? Who’s the only President who has told his supporters that he’ll throw his opponents in jail and revelled in his supporters yelling “Lock her up”? Who’s the only President who paints targets on the backs of anyone who stands in his way so his supporters can harass them or worse? Who’s the only President who has done nothing to condemn supporters who chanted about hanging his own VP while breaking in to the Capitol where VP was presumed to be?

Trump simply can’t be seen as the victim no matter how much he tries to persuade people to see him as one,
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 11, 2021, 09:55:46 am
Disagree, the media just like to paint it that way.

ASIO’s terrorism outlook mentions Islamic fundamentalism and:

Quote
Extreme right-wing groups and individuals have been in ASIO’s sights for many decades—while we have maintained continuous and dedicated resources to this area, extremists such as neo-Nazis represent a serious, increasing and evolving threat to security. The 2019 Christchurch attack continues to be drawn on for inspiration by right-wing extremists worldwide.

The left has dropped of the radar.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on January 11, 2021, 09:58:41 am
Disagree, the media just like to paint it that way.

Absolutely they did.  They still do.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on January 11, 2021, 10:14:30 am
#notmypresident

Who was the last us president beheaded and burnt by gen public even if it was just a doll?

Kathy Griffin ... but she was just "misunderstood"
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 11, 2021, 10:23:26 am
Disagree, the media just like to paint it that way.

Ask yourself two questions, MBB. Had the Orange One won the election and the Democrats cried fraud, how vehemently would the Orange One have defended the very same voting processes? And... had the insurrectionists succeeded at taking control of the Senate, what would the Orange One have done?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 11, 2021, 10:39:42 am
I think that Bob Dylan has a lot to answer for ...

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
The battle outside ragin'
Will soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 11, 2021, 11:03:12 am
I think that Bob Dylan has a lot to answer for ...

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
The battle outside ragin'
Will soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'

Ban him for inciting violence.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 11, 2021, 11:22:50 am
Don’t worry,  most people don’t listen to the words. Trump kept playing CCR’s Fortunate Son at rallies despite being exactly the sort of guy the song condemned.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 11, 2021, 12:30:37 pm
Ban him for inciting violence.

Unlike the POTUS, he is warning the senators and congressmen about impending violence.  He was also foreseeing a leftist movement rather than right wing insurrectionists - times they are a-changing indeed!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 11, 2021, 12:55:51 pm
Unlike the POTUS, he is warning the senators and congressmen about impending violence.  He was also foreseeing a leftist movement rather than right wing insurrectionists - times they are a-changing indeed!

Interesting, thats the same sort of language that I see Trump banned from Twitter.

Inferred meaning seems to be the problem to me, but thats just what I see.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 11, 2021, 01:50:38 pm
Love it! Because of a Dylan song in the 60s, Trump should be allowed to use Twitter to mobilise his mob. That makes a lot of sense  :D

By the way, this is another great example of the right-wing victim strategy. They’re perfectly happy to condemn Kathy Griffen over her bloody head routine, First Amendment be damned. They clutched their pearls while complaining that this would endanger the life of the President. They managed to extract an apology but Kathy Griffen had to flee the country anyway. But when Trump incites violence which kills 5 people, they then say Kathy Griffen did it so Trump should be allowed his freedom of speech. Great logic there.

After all, cancel culture is only allowed when right-wingers are wielding it as a weapon. We’ve seen it over here regarding Abdul-Magied’s Anzac Day tweet. She must have laughed when she read stories about the investigations into cold-blooded murder by the SAS.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 11, 2021, 01:59:26 pm
Love it! Because of a Dylan song in the 60s, Trump should be allowed to use Twitter to mobilise his mob. That makes a lot of sense  :D

By the way, this is another great example of the right-wing victim strategy. They’re perfectly happy to condemn Kathy Griffen over her bloody head routine, First Amendment be damned. They clutched their pearls while complaining that this would endanger the life of the President. They managed to extract an apology but Kathy Griffen had to flee the country anyway. But when Trump incites violence which kills 5 people, they then say Kathy Griffen did it so Trump should be allowed his freedom of speech. Great logic there.

After all, cancel culture is only allowed when right-wingers are wielding it as a weapon. We’ve seen it over here regarding Abdul-Magied’s Anzac Day tweet. She must have laughed when she read stories about the investigations into cold-blooded murder by the SAS.

Like i said inferred meaning seems to be the problem.

Apply that thought process to your response to me, and see what answer you come up with.

Speaking of cancel culture, did you hear the movie Grease is in the firing line at the moment?

Why?  Too many hetero normative relationships, and slut shaming....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 11, 2021, 02:23:53 pm
It’s terrible when cancel culture is employed by non-conservatives. Surely right-wingers could sue in court to protect their intellectual property: they must be able to argue they have an enforceable copyright or patent. Senator Joe McCarthy surely invented it. Ironically, he deployed it against suspected Russian sympathisers but if he were still around no doubt he would have gladly gone after anyone who wondered about Trump’s Russian connections.

As long as cancel culture is applied the right way, e.g. killing Colin Kaepernick’s career for having the temerity to kneel, then we can be happy that all is right with the world.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 11, 2021, 02:29:43 pm
#notmypresident

Who was the last us president beheaded and burnt by gen public even if it was just a doll?
That's what I'm asking for, examples so I can investigate the context!

If you give me a concrete example I've got something to base an opinion on.

I presume you're not talking Trump, because that was part of an organised media stunt by a professional comedian in response to Trump's supporters stringing up effigies of Obama, which is somewhat different to the protests and protestors we see now, egged on by Trump into bashing/assaulting public officials like electoral officers just because they do their job, some officials that may in fact be GOP voters!

It would be like claiming that Trump urging protestors to roll up to your health workplace to bash people issuing vaccines had some democratic equivalent!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 11, 2021, 02:32:26 pm
Interesting, thats the same sort of language that I see Trump banned from Twitter.

Inferred meaning seems to be the problem to me, but thats just what I see.

Very different language in Dylan’s protest song to what was said by the POTUS and his henchmen directly to crowd to incite insurrectionist.

Rudy Giuliani:  “Let’s have trial by combat.”

Eric T-rump: “Have some backbone. Show some fight. Learn from [the POTUS] and we need to march on the Capitol today.”

After urging supporters to attend with “Be there. Will be wild!”, the POTUS’s remarks included:

“Republicans are constantly fighting like a boxer with his hands tied behind his back. It’s like a boxer. And we want to be so nice. We want to be so respectful of everybody, including bad people. And we’re going to have to fight much harder. …

“We’re going to walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women, and we’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them, because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.”

“When you catch somebody in a fraud, you are allowed to go by very different rules.”

“We will never give up. We will never concede. It doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved. Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore, and that is what this is all about. And to use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal. …

You will have an illegitimate president. That is what you will have, and we can’t let that happen. These are the facts that you won’t hear from the fake news media. It’s all part of the suppression effort. They don’t want to talk about it. They don’t want to talk about it. …

We fight like hell, and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”

“Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. And after this, we’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you. … We are going to the Capitol, and we are going to try and give — the Democrats are hopeless, they are never voting for anything, not even one vote, but we are going to try — give our Republicans, the weak ones, because the strong ones don’t need any of our help, we’re try — going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.”

During the occupation of Congress, the POTUS tweeted:

“These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long. Go home with love & in peace. Remember this day forever!"

Twitter removed the POTUS’s video because:

“This is an emergency situation and we are taking appropriate emergency measures, including removing President Trump's video. We removed it because on balance we believe it contributes to rather than diminishes the risk of ongoing violence.“

An appropriate response in my opinion.

It will be interesting to see how the impeachment for inciting insurrection and the prosecutions being prepared for similar offences proceed.  That should sort out what was inferred and what was meant.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 11, 2021, 02:35:09 pm
Interesting, thats the same sort of language that I see Trump banned from Twitter.
It's not a sudden event, this has been building for years, and many many people have been warning about this but too many powerful voices in powerful positions chose profit and political leverage over risk.

The only reason they rally against Trump's ban is that they fear the same, they want to reserve the right to incite!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 11, 2021, 03:13:51 pm
Very different language in Dylan’s protest song to what was said by the POTUS and his henchmen directly to crowd to incite insurrectionist.

Rudy Giuliani:  “Let’s have trial by combat.”

Eric T-rump: “Have some backbone. Show some fight. Learn from [the POTUS] and we need to march on the Capitol today.”

After urging supporters to attend with “Be there. Will be wild!”, the POTUS’s remarks included:

“Republicans are constantly fighting like a boxer with his hands tied behind his back. It’s like a boxer. And we want to be so nice. We want to be so respectful of everybody, including bad people. And we’re going to have to fight much harder. …

“We’re going to walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women, and we’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them, because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.”

“When you catch somebody in a fraud, you are allowed to go by very different rules.”

“We will never give up. We will never concede. It doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved. Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore, and that is what this is all about. And to use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal. …

You will have an illegitimate president. That is what you will have, and we can’t let that happen. These are the facts that you won’t hear from the fake news media. It’s all part of the suppression effort. They don’t want to talk about it. They don’t want to talk about it. …

We fight like hell, and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”

“Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. And after this, we’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you. … We are going to the Capitol, and we are going to try and give — the Democrats are hopeless, they are never voting for anything, not even one vote, but we are going to try — give our Republicans, the weak ones, because the strong ones don’t need any of our help, we’re try — going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.”

During the occupation of Congress, the POTUS tweeted:

“These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long. Go home with love & in peace. Remember this day forever!"

Twitter removed the POTUS’s video because:

“This is an emergency situation and we are taking appropriate emergency measures, including removing President Trump's video. We removed it because on balance we believe it contributes to rather than diminishes the risk of ongoing violence.“

An appropriate response in my opinion.

It will be interesting to see how the impeachment for inciting insurrection and the prosecutions being prepared for similar offences proceed.  That should sort out what was inferred and what was meant.



Again, the inferred meaning of fight in these contexts means violence and also profiles the standard Trump supporter, who it sounds like you think would raise fists at each and every opportunity just with the words written.

In actuality, the comments can mean varying different things, and the inference here is that Trump is inferring violence.


For the most part, I find myself restating my position here.  I am ambivalent, I really don't see the difference between praising one, and condemning the other.  Either you do both, or you do neither.  I see the commentary, and I hear the propaganda, and I laugh at the juxtaposition that people hold when commenating about all these things.  Trump should have conceded fair and square, he hasnt, and for the most part, I support his right to question whether or not the outcome was fair and ask for recount etc.  I would state the same for any other person in the same position because I am detached from the person.  Likewise, Twitter, Facebook etc.  If someone writes something on these social media platforms, they shouldnt be silenced.  That is not the society I want to live in.  An enlightened mind will entertain an idea without accepting it.


BLM had a bunch of people fighting for their rights to protest, fighting for their rights to be heard and stand up for their human rights.  Some did so violently, others did so peacefully, but all had the same goal.  They were simply fighting for their rights, no?

I hear varying degrees of the same sort of vitriol coming from people saying "its different this time" as I always do, which is the irony and hypocrisy I am pointing to.

I bet you, that the majority of respondents here are painting me as a Trump supporter.  I am not.  I don't really care, I choose my position to keep the bastards honest, as per a previous Aussie PM. 


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 11, 2021, 03:31:15 pm
I bet you, that the majority of respondents here are painting me as a Trump supporter.  I am not.  I don't really care, I choose my position to keep the bastards honest, as per a previous Aussie PM. 
I'm not sure that is correct, if they are like myself they just do not see the equivalence in behaviour that you see, that is why I've asked for examples.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 11, 2021, 03:59:32 pm
Person A commits a parking offence. Person B commits murder. Both are criminals. They’re the same.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on January 11, 2021, 04:41:43 pm
Biden said Antifa Is ‘An Idea, Not An Organization’ during the Presidential Debate

Believe that and you believe anything
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 11, 2021, 04:46:44 pm
Was he quoting Trump’s hand-picked FBI Director?  FBI Director says Antifa is an ideology, not an organization (https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-race-and-ethnicity-archive-bdd3b6078e9efadcfcd0be4b65f2362e), AP.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 11, 2021, 06:14:47 pm
Again, the inferred meaning of fight in these contexts means violence and also profiles the standard Trump supporter, who it sounds like you think would raise fists at each and every opportunity just with the words written.

In actuality, the comments can mean varying different things, and the inference here is that Trump is inferring violence.


For the most part, I find myself restating my position here.  I am ambivalent, I really don't see the difference between praising one, and condemning the other.  Either you do both, or you do neither.  I see the commentary, and I hear the propaganda, and I laugh at the juxtaposition that people hold when commenating about all these things.  Trump should have conceded fair and square, he hasnt, and for the most part, I support his right to question whether or not the outcome was fair and ask for recount etc.  I would state the same for any other person in the same position because I am detached from the person.  Likewise, Twitter, Facebook etc.  If someone writes something on these social media platforms, they shouldnt be silenced.  That is not the society I want to live in.  An enlightened mind will entertain an idea without accepting it.


BLM had a bunch of people fighting for their rights to protest, fighting for their rights to be heard and stand up for their human rights.  Some did so violently, others did so peacefully, but all had the same goal.  They were simply fighting for their rights, no?

I hear varying degrees of the same sort of vitriol coming from people saying "its different this time" as I always do, which is the irony and hypocrisy I am pointing to.

I bet you, that the majority of respondents here are painting me as a Trump supporter.  I am not.  I don't really care, I choose my position to keep the bastards honest, as per a previous Aussie PM. 




But not in that context Thry.

An audience of Proud Boys and other militant right wingers, many armed, some with explosives and most spoiling for a fight.

And then there’s the body language of the POTUS and the other speakers.  Watch the videos.

The POTUS has been building this up since before the election.  He was determined to hang on to power and knew that his MAGA base and other disaffected nutters would do his bidding, and do his bidding they did. 

I know that you’re not a Trump supporter Thry; you’re too smart for that.  But you can be contrary at times 😇
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 11, 2021, 08:24:31 pm
Both the Democrats and Republicans are totally complicit in the rise and acceptance of a figure like Trump. Both have left the majority of Americans for dead, and they have both directly created the desperation and nihilism that had its most visible expression on Capitol Hill.

Trump is awful, and I’m as glad as most sane people that he is almost gone. Whilst I prefer a more gentlemanly and honourable approach to politics, as exemplified by the Democrats, they aren’t the answer, not even close. I expect some kind of civility will return, but any improvement in the lot of working people will be minor at best.

I find it laughable that a frankly tepid figure like Sanders would generate such hostility and hysteria, when his policies do not amount to anything more than trying to make the lives of most Americans a little better. You’d think he was trying to start a mad commie revolution.

A joke of a country, similar to the UK, looking for easy populist solutions (read : scapegoats) to justify gossamer policy making. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on January 11, 2021, 09:18:08 pm
Trump sniping aside, Stan nails it well.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-10/us-toxic-politics-started-long-before-donald-trump-arrived/13042856
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 11, 2021, 11:30:54 pm
Here’s a pretty horrifying look into the sewer that is the Alt-Right:
Inside the Alt-Right Meltdown After Failed Capitol Putsch (https://news.yahoo.com/inside-alt-meltdown-failed-capitol-095820015.html), Yahoo/Daily Beast.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 12, 2021, 09:44:54 am
Here’s a pretty horrifying look into the sewer that is the Alt-Right:
Inside the Alt-Right Meltdown After Failed Capitol Putsch (https://news.yahoo.com/inside-alt-meltdown-failed-capitol-095820015.html), Yahoo/Daily Beast.
In fairness, the author of that article is very far from neutral, he's probably as close to being one of McCarthy's Commis as you can get, but that fact does not invalidate his commentary it just questions his motive and exposes how difficult it is for the neutral majority to be heard.

The media, both commercial and social, loves conflict.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 12, 2021, 10:09:16 am
But not in that context Thry.

An audience of Proud Boys and other militant right wingers, many armed, some with explosives and most spoiling for a fight.

And then there’s the body language of the POTUS and the other speakers.  Watch the videos.

The POTUS has been building this up since before the election.  He was determined to hang on to power and knew that his MAGA base and other disaffected nutters would do his bidding, and do his bidding they did. 

I know that you’re not a Trump supporter Thry; you’re too smart for that.  But you can be contrary at times 😇

Look DJC, I can appreciate that people are inferring meaning in his comments, we have had to the whole way through, but the same people who inferred meaning now, didnt in the past.

They made lists like the following without even worrying what the inference was about.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/20/politics/trump-lines-of-the-year-the-point/index.html

Im going to point at this one line.

Quote
35. "You know, with Biden, you go like this -- whew -- and he goes down."
No big deal! Just the President of the United States saying he would knock out the former vice president of the United States with one punch!

Things are sometimes mentioned literally, figuratively, and with Trump, often preposterously.

In this case, its looking at what he has stated, how he has stated it, and to whom he was aiming the comments, whilst profiling that audience and equating it to making violence happen.

Thats a quantum leap for a man, who has not been known to make statements well. 







Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 12, 2021, 10:33:55 am
Time to cut Islamic extremists some slack? If we judged them as some would judge Trump, it’s hardly their fault if their audience fails to realise that they’re speaking rhetorically. Maybe they’re just doing it ironically to troll the Christians. Who are we to infer any malice? And yet Western governments crack down on their online communications. Whatever happened to freedom of speech?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on January 12, 2021, 11:36:55 am
Peaceful protest!

(https://theglobepost.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Minneapolis-riot-1140x570.jpg)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 12, 2021, 12:04:05 pm
@madbluboy I'm confused by this thread/debate, some posts seem to be discussing BLM and others Capitol Hill.

I don't get the relevance of the above image from May, it's a BLM protest, and BLM bears no specific relationship to GOP or Conservative as it bridges both sides of politics. Which is in no way a commentary about the validity of actions, all violent protests are wrong.

Is there some attempt to paint BLM as political ideology specific?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on January 12, 2021, 12:11:33 pm
Sunrise were discussing it the other day. Said Trump took stronger action on what was a peaceful protest.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 12, 2021, 12:23:35 pm
Haven’t you got the hang of this false equivalence thing yet LP? Here’s a quick lesson. Black and white are both colours, so black = white.

You’d think if you really were trying to find true equivalence b/w Trump inciting a deadly attack on the US Government and the BLM protests, you’d think there’d be some thought put into tying The Democratic Party to any riots. Sadly, the first problem that arises is that Biden unequivocally condemned anything but peaceful protesting.

I guess the fallback is to say that supporting peaceful BLM protesting was wrong, First Amendment be damned (cancel culture anyone?), as criminals and extremists may take advantage of them. But that would be inconsistent with the defence of Trump that you can’t hold someone responsible for the actions of extremists even when inciting violence.

Damn, it’s so hard to put together a false equivalence that isn’t obviously bogus.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on January 12, 2021, 01:10:39 pm
Trump said he wanted a peaceful protest too.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 12, 2021, 01:20:11 pm
https://theconversation.com/why-free-speech-needs-a-new-definition-in-the-age-of-the-internet-and-trump-tweets-152919
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 12, 2021, 01:24:14 pm
When? I can’t remember that. But of course he likes to throw out a comment which he buries in a landslide of comments to the contrary just so he can have a bit of plausible deniability. Then his spokespeople latch on to the earlier comment as if it’s all he ever said. Obvious examples are the highly infrequent occasions where he was forced to condemn David Duke and white supremacists in the wake of Charlottesville.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 12, 2021, 01:41:39 pm
When? I can’t remember that. But of course he likes to throw out a comment which he buries in a landslide of comments to the contrary just so he can have a bit of plausible deniability. Then his spokespeople latch on to the earlier comment as if it’s all he ever said. Obvious examples are the highly infrequent occasions where he was forced to condemn David Duke and white supremacists in the wake of Charlottesville.

I agree.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 12, 2021, 02:06:10 pm
So, Trump is going to visit the Alamo as he agitates against the end of his Presidency. Yep, the place that is emblematic of the willingness of patriots to fight to the death. And that’s in the wake of warnings that right-wing extremists are planning to attack the Capitol again but also all of the 50 State Capitol buildings. But yeah, Trump’s not inciting insurrection  ::)

EDIT: Seems the trip is to Alamo, Texas, and the Alamo isn’t located there. But I doubt Trump’s aides were unaware of the likely furore that would be unleashed. And we’ve previously seen apparent confusion of places from Trump & his allies. Just about everybody thinks the press conference held at Four Seasons Landscaping was supposed to be held at the Four Seasons Hotel. Will he invoke the Alamo during his visit?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 13, 2021, 10:35:37 am
Liz Cheney, the no. 3 in GOP Congressional leadership has come out with this:
Quote
The President of the United States summoned this mob, assembled the mob, and lit the flame of this attack. Everything that followed was his doing. None of this would have happened without the President. The President could have immediately and forcefully intervened to stop the violence. He did not. There has never been a greater betrayal by a President of the United States of his office and his oath to the Constitution."
She’ll vote to impeach!

Apparently, Mitch McConnell is open to voting to convict!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on January 13, 2021, 10:45:59 am
https://www.theage.com.au/national/twitter-s-decision-to-ban-donald-trump-is-chilling-if-you-care-about-free-speech-20210112-p56thk.html

Twitter’s decision to kick US President Donald Trump permanently off its platform “due to the risk of further incitement of violence” following earlier similar moves by Facebook and Instagram has set off a free-speech firestorm.

On the facts, Twitter had a strong case. The violence and desecration at the Capitol on January 6 had not been seen since the British burnt down the White House in 1812.
Trump had stirred his supporters into a fury with incendiary remarks beforehand, urging them to “stop the steal” under way as Congress was ceremonially counting President-elect Joe Biden’s win.

Trump urged his supporters to “fight much harder”, warning them that “you’ll never take back our country with weakness ... you have to show strength”, and telling them “if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore”.

Trump took to Twitter the following day to assure his supporters that they would never be “disrespected”, and inform them he would not be attending Biden’s inauguration on January 20.

Twitter acted, concerned that Trump’s supporters would see his tweets as a green light for further violent protest.
Even if you believe Twitter acted appropriately in this instance, anyone with a commitment to free speech should find the whole episode chilling: a private technology company, answerable to no one other than shareholders, acting on policies and principles that are self-formulated and ill-defined, and with no safeguards or due process that accompany a judicial process, takes a decision to “de-platform” the President of the world’s most powerful country from the most important political medium of the day.

When Socrates, the free-speech gadfly of the Athenian elite, was “de-platformed”, it was done by a citizen jury, and Socrates spoke in his defence.

Trump has been stripped of his political voice, silenced, without reference to any law, and without the involvement of any court. Should this happen in a liberal democracy?

Free speech has its limitations in a free society. But when such limitations are imposed, it is normally done by a publicly accountable body, usually a parliament, passing legislation in a transparent and contestable manner.

And when such limitations are enforced, it is done so transparently by a judicial body, on the basis of laws and principles which are well-understood, and in which the accused party can mount arguments in defence.

There are those on the political left who applaud Twitter’s action because their dislike of Trump overrides their commitment to free speech.

But they should imagine if the tables are turned. What if the next time it is their champion, seeking to mobilise their supporters to declare a climate emergency or demand racial justice, who is silenced?

What if Twitter is bought out by a climate sceptic who decides to de-platform anyone promoting climate action?



This fundamentally misunderstands the ubiquitous, dominant and indispensable nature of digital platforms today, especially in the world of political communication.

They are more akin to monopolistic utilities, where denial of service constitutes the denial of a right, and where free-market advocates would usually concede government regulation is needed.

Just imagine Twitter and Facebook had taken the decision to de-platform Donald Trump before the presidential election, rather than afterward. Can anyone seriously contest that this would not have had a profound political influence on the election?

The Twitter decision opens a veritable Pandora’s box which will be very hard to close.

Why is Trump silenced but not Iran’s supreme leader Ali Khamenei when he calls for the extermination of Israel? Or the Chinese Communist Party when it claims its policies of ethnic cleansing in Xinjiang instead constitutes a gender equality program?

Stung by earlier criticism, social media self-regulation has skyrocketed. Facebook’s removal of hate speech has risen tenfold in two years. Twitter removed 2.9 million tweets in the second half of 2018. YouTube removed 11.4 million videos in just the last quarter of 2018. The platforms are slowly acknowledging some responsibility as publishers.

But it is unfair of us as societies to expect digital platforms to self-censor and get it right. Nor should they be the arbiters of truth, a role they were increasingly forced to play in the context of the US presidential election.

They lack the expertise to perform these roles properly. But more seriously, they lack the legitimacy to do so. Only representative governments and lawmakers can fulfil this role.

The digital platforms are filling a void left by public policy. But the limitations that should be placed on free speech must be taken by society collectively, not left to the tech titans.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 13, 2021, 11:09:05 am
Free speech is never free. There are standards that ought and need to be maintained. I would dare anyone to come on here and start peddling racist crap against Indigenous folks, Asians etc., and see how long it takes you get banned. Then you can complain about how your right to free speech has been eroded.

Trump has a rap sheet as long as your arm. He has plenty of other avenues to peddle his shyte.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 13, 2021, 11:17:56 am
That Age opinion was written by a Liberal MP.
If only right-wing politicians had stood against the use of a firehose of lies and disinformation to whip up grievance and hostility, it wouldn’t have fallen on social media and corporations to staunch the flow.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 13, 2021, 01:25:57 pm
https://www.theage.com.au/national/twitter-s-decision-to-ban-donald-trump-is-chilling-if-you-care-about-free-speech-20210112-p56thk.html

Twitter’s decision to kick US President Donald Trump permanently off its platform “due to the risk of further incitement of violence” following earlier similar moves by Facebook and Instagram has set off a free-speech firestorm. Sensible and correct decision.

Trump has been stripped of his political voice, silenced, without reference to any law, and without the involvement of any court. Should this happen in a liberal democracy? Bullshizen. He was not stripped of his political voice. The author of this should have checked the facts... as President the Orange One has his media crew who in fact filmed him in the past 14 hours coming out with all kinds of cr@p that was picked up by all networks. Again, poor journalism making dumb assumptions. He's simply been robbed of his toy to incite and make outrageous and inflammatory comments.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 13, 2021, 01:27:25 pm
Free speech is never free. There are standards that ought and need to be maintained. I would dare anyone to come on here and start peddling racist crap against Indigenous folks, Asians etc., and see how long it takes you get banned. Then you can complain about how your right to free speech has been eroded.

Trump has a rap sheet as long as your arm. He has plenty of other avenues to peddle his shyte.

Exactamundo.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 13, 2021, 03:47:52 pm
Exactamundo.
I get the feeling those complaining are doing so mostly out a fear those social media services will treat this as a precident, and they'll get cut off for peddling the same shizen!

Free speech is a right, but as Malcolm Turnbull stated freedom of speech doesn't include "freedom from having responsibility for one's statements", and it's clear some think they can speak and write whatever they like under freedom of speech without having liability or responsibility. That never was and never will be the case, but I bet people like Andrew Bolt scream bloody murder anyway!

Sensible people need to make sure the debate is framed in the correct and viable context!

What happened to Trump is neither a threat to free speech or democracy, it's a threat to despotism!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 13, 2021, 05:36:29 pm
I get the feeling those complaining are doing so mostly out a fear those social media services will treat this as a precident, and they'll get cut off for peddling the same shizen!

Free speech is a right, but as Malcolm Turnbull stated freedom of speech doesn't include "freedom from having responsibility for one's statements", and it's clear some think they can speak and write whatever they like under freedom of speech without having liability or responsibility. That never was and never will be the case, but I bet people like Andrew Bolt scream bloody murder anyway!

Sensible people need to make sure the debate is framed in the correct and viable context!

What happened to Trump is neither a threat to free speech or democracy, it's a threat to despotism!

Im choosing to think of things differently.

The media has gone down social media street.

With Social media showing such a strong hand in banning content, they open themselves to a bit more scrutiny with respect to how they view the public and are viewed by the public.  Could he in theory call them out for defamation with respect to this "incitefulness" if Trump is indeed proven to have been guilty, could the action of banning him have caused a prejudiced Jury?

Does this open many avenues of future lititation and regulation and perhaps a change in how these platforms are perceived??

I dont know those answers, they are broader than Trump, and its only an example of something that might be. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 14, 2021, 08:01:29 am
Does this open many avenues of future lititation and regulation and perhaps a change in how these platforms are perceived??
This is inevitable, once the big social platforms decided they were going to chase and replace mainstream media's advertising dollar, they needed regulation, in my opinion it's already taken too long to happen as they have used fat wallets to prevent it!

They've become the digital version of The Truth, you wouldn't leave that sort of rubbish unregulated, why the feck should FakeBook, Instatwerk or Twatty escape the same fate?

They are defacto broadcasters, they need regulation.

By the way, I agree the media have gone down the path of inciting the public, but they are a corporate entity not an individual despot! However that issue also needs to be addressed, but I doubt the gutless politicians will do anything about it, you can already see the piss-weak garnishing media favour, even here in Australia our Deputy Prime Minister is brown-nosing the media looking for favours by lauding it's freedom under a veneer or free speech, again free speech isn't free of responsibility. Make them responsible, they use to be held accountable it wasn't always like it is now, that seems reasonable! Part two make them pay their way, eliminate the free ride!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 14, 2021, 09:26:27 am
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/blood-on-his-hands-trump-impeached-for-second-time-over-capitol-riot-20210114-p56ty0.html
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 14, 2021, 11:21:27 am
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/blood-on-his-hands-trump-impeached-for-second-time-over-capitol-riot-20210114-p56ty0.html

Amazing

Correct me if wrong, wasnt trump acquitted the first time of his impeachment?

Why do they say he is impeached again when it didnt hold the first time?

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 14, 2021, 11:26:31 am
On another note, I did some reading and found this interesting too.

https://theconversation.com/impeaching-trump-a-second-time-is-a-complex-and-politically-risky-act-heres-how-it-could-work-152965

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 14, 2021, 12:14:58 pm
Why do they say he is impeached again when it didnt hold the first time?
I believe Trump wasn't impeached because the even though The House and Senate majority voted for it, the 2/3rds Senate threshold wasn't achieved because of voting along party lines.

Same will apply again today, he won't be impeached by the Senate because you need about 1/2 the Republicans to cross the floor, and so they will get a small majority decision of guilty but not enough to act on it.

I believe Murdoch media back in 2019 reported the inability to get the 2/3rds Senate threshold as Trump being acquitted, but it's hardly the same as a unanimous no vote! It's a bit like a Joe Average being found guilty by 7 out of 12 jurors and then being set free, and obviously some charges require the jury to be unanimous, but not all, many charges are just covered by a majority verdict with a similar threshold like 9/3 or 10/2. Depends on the jurisdiction, it's not universal.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on January 14, 2021, 12:34:23 pm
https://www.politico.com/interactives/2019/trump-impeachment-vote-count-senate-results/


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 14, 2021, 02:27:35 pm
https://www.politico.com/interactives/2019/trump-impeachment-vote-count-senate-results/
Yes sorry, I had the Senate count back to front in the first impeachment.

For/Against
House = 230/197 and 229/198
Senate = 48/52 and 47/53
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on January 14, 2021, 02:48:33 pm
Amazing

Correct me if wrong, wasnt trump acquitted the first time of his impeachment?

Why do they say he is impeached again when it didnt hold the first time?

The 'impeachment' is the House of Representative's responsibility.
So he's been impeached for a second time by the House.
It's the 'charge' part of the process.

It then goes to the senate where the 'trial' takes place
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 15, 2021, 08:37:46 am
Amazing

Correct me if wrong, wasnt trump acquitted the first time of his impeachment?

Why do they say he is impeached again when it didnt hold the first time?



A President is impeached when the House votes on the motion, so the POTUS is unique in being the only person to have been impeached twice.

The trial is another step and the Republicans are saying that it’s unlikely to go ahead before July.  That’s not necessarily a bad thing as it gives Biden a chance to work on his agenda without the distraction of the trial.

The trial could result in the POTUS being stripped of entitlements and barred from holding office so it’s still a meaningful process.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 15, 2021, 10:44:42 am
At the very least, this impeachment will be a useful way of distracting Trump. Trump is monomaniacal. He’s not the 3 dimensional chess player his supporters see. He couldn’t even handle checkers let alone ordinary chess. In the salad days of his administration, while Trump fixated on his obsession du jour his minions would be working on other schemes. But alas, his minions have followed the rats as the ship of State sinks.

History tells us that threats to Trump will see him glued to live TV coverage of them. The only concern will be if he regards Mitch McConnell’s refusal to bring the impeachment trial on urgently as a victory for him. If so, his attention will immediately return to evil scheming. We’ve seen that before: when he considered he’d dodged the Mueller bullet, he immediately implemented the Ukraine strategy that would see him impeached. And after he was acquitted of that, he started pushing the big lie of the rigged election in a bid to kill early and absentee voting and lay the groundwork for baselessly challenging a Biden victory.

But can he afford to return to business as usual? McConnell has a gun to his head now. While McConnell claims it’s impossible to start a trial before Inauguraion Day, if Trump starts doing something particularly egregious, I have a feeling McConnell would be able to organise an up-and-down vote within hours. More importantly, Trump knows any new outrage will add fuel to the fire when this impeachment does come to trial and may see McConnell ordering his Senators to convict in order to kill Trump off for good.

It certainly would be an outrage if Trump pardons all the insurrectionists on the way out the door, especially as investigators are investigating the murder of the Capitol police officer who was beaten to death. Could he pardon of all crimes other than murder? The problem is that every insurrectionist could be charged with the felony-murder of that officer. Leaving murder on the table would have the perverse result of leaving prosecutors with that charge when they would have otherwise charged those who weren’t directly involved in that killing with lesser charges. Imagine if Trump pardons cop-killers ...

I reckon this impeachment was a really sensible move. It has already extracted a hostage video from Trump that will sit alongside the Johnny Depp Pistol and Boo video when it comes to insincerity.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 15, 2021, 11:14:47 am
But alas, his minions have followed the rats as the ship of State sinks.
It's a huge tell, they rode the bus and now they are throwing Trump under it!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 15, 2021, 11:18:34 am
It's a huge tell, they rode the bus and now they are throwing Trump under it!

They are all strategists.  If Trump is succesfully impeached, he can't run for the hot seat again.  Watch them all cross the floor for it this time because it guarantees one of them will get their snout in the presedential running trot and ensures Trump won't be able to ever again.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 15, 2021, 12:06:20 pm
Hmmm!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 15, 2021, 12:16:32 pm
The other advantage of a delayed trial in the Senate is that it can ride on the coattails of FBI, police & media investigations. Imagine if they reveal that Trump had conspired with the militants who were the spearhead of the attack on the Capitol  :o

Granted, there’s no cogent evidence of this atm. But you only have to look at the behind-the-scenes behaviour of Trump and his lackeys (especially Guiliani) regarding Ukraine and Georgia to know it’s possible. Not only do those instances show that Trump is willing to resort to criminality, they also show they’re incompetent enough that they don’t cover their tracks well.

What we do know is that the attack on the Capitol was pre-planned. Substantial materiel was used in the attack: sledgehammers, ladders, loudhailers, chemical sprays, helmets, weapons and the like. Apparently, extremists left the rally early to retrieve that materiel given that they couldn’t bring them to the rally. Chatter before the attack foreshadowed the attack. On the one hand, a good lawyer would defend Trumpon this basis: extremists had pre-planned the attack, so Trump’s behaviour at the rally couldn’t have incited them. On the other, Trump’s administration must have been made aware of the threat posed by the militants and yet sent the army down to the Capitol that the extremists needed to overwhelm security.

Then there are suspicions of inside help given to the extremists. One House Democrat witnessed groups being shown around the Capitol despite public tours being suspended due to Covid. They must have been signed in by Congressional insiders. Ali Alexander, who runs Stop the Steal, says he was working with some GOP Congressmen. One moron, QAnon GOP Congresswoman Lauren Bobert, actually live-tweeted Nancy Pelosi’s whereabouts during the siege.

Investigators will be chasing down who funded the flights and accomodation for the insurrectionists. The FBI’s strong suit is following the money.

Did Trump let it be known Insurrectionists would be pardoned? The failure of many extremists to hide their faces makes you wonder.

An early trial wouldn’t allow any Senators to act on any suspicions. But investigations may well disclose evidence which will blow Trump out of the water.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 15, 2021, 12:18:38 pm
I love the meme! Though, I’m sure there was never any limit on what Rudy was prepared to do for Trump ...

Funny that reports are that Trump is now telling his minions to stiff Rudy by refusing to pay him for legal fees. Surely Rudy demanded payment up front? That’s Trump 101.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 15, 2021, 02:14:09 pm
I love the meme! Though, I’m sure there was never any limit on what Rudy was prepared to do for Trump ...

Funny that reports are that Trump is now telling his minions to stiff Rudy by refusing to pay him for legal fees. Surely Rudy demanded payment up front? That’s Trump 101.

 :))  :))  :))
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 15, 2021, 03:26:53 pm
So now the lawyer for the QAnon Sharman (the guy with the headdress warpaint and carrying a big spear) has told CNN that Trump should pardon him because he was only in the Capitol because Trump had told him (as part of the crowd) to do so.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 15, 2021, 04:03:45 pm
So now the lawyer for the QAnon Sharman (the guy with the headdress warpaint and carrying a big spear) has told CNN that Trump should pardon him because he was only in the Capitol because Trump had told him (as part of the crowd) to do so.

I have been wondering whether the POTUS will pardon the insurrectionists.  Surely, he is not so malevolent  :-\
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 15, 2021, 05:27:29 pm
Sadly, it occurred to me that he’d do this almost as soon as the insurrection happened (and I posted about it then). I think there’s every chance he will. If he wants to outrage everybody, this is a great way of doing it. An added benefit is that he could announce those pardons at the same time as pardons for his family, Bannon, Guiliani and a self-pardon and they won’t get as much attention. On the other hand, Trump only does what helps him and if he thinks his best interests are served, then he’ll leave them to twist in the wind. But if he does this, he better hope that the insurrectionists aren’t able to lag him in as a co-conspirator. We’ve already seen that when he hung Michael Cohen out to dry, Cohen turned on him despite his earlier boasts he would take a bullet for Trump. And the pathetic example set by the crying Nazi shows that supposedly hard as nails extremists can turn to jelly when the jail doors open up.

There’s still the prickly issue of the police officer’s murder which complicates the idea of issuing broad pardons. But maybe Trump would derive some malicious pleasure by forcing the GOP to square such pardons with its Blue Lives Matter boasts.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 15, 2021, 06:53:28 pm
Can a Presidential Pardon be revoked? I.e. could Biden revoke a clearly indulgent/frivolous Presidential Pardon?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 15, 2021, 06:56:26 pm
Can a Presidential Pardon be revoked? I.e. could Biden revoke a clearly indulgent/frivolous Presidential Pardon?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-02/can-joe-biden-unpardon-someone-when-he-becomes-president/12937996
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 16, 2021, 12:48:08 am
Senator Lankford, a Republican Senator from Oklahoma, had been intending to join Cruz and Hawley and 8 other Senators in calling for the decertification of Electoral College votes but changed his mind after the Capitol was invaded. He’s now apologised to Black constituents, saying he didn’t realise Trump’s attacks on the voting centred around cities with large Black populations. Wow, a Republican ackowledging right-wing racism. Wonder whether it’s freezing in Hell atm ...
Click Here (https://tulsaworld.com/read-the-letter/pdf_3f0cb70a-56c8-11eb-bed6-2b558d2cd9e6.html)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 16, 2021, 09:20:13 am
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-02/can-joe-biden-unpardon-someone-when-he-becomes-president/12937996

Thank you, Pauly.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 16, 2021, 09:42:02 am
Thank you, Pauly.
I fear a lot of this is going to result in some harsh prosecutions on both sides, perhaps filed in lead!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 16, 2021, 09:47:07 am
Thank you, Pauly.

All good Shano.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: spf on January 17, 2021, 03:46:22 am
Thought I would ask; Who are these people?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=368vnKRGXq4
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 17, 2021, 07:51:20 pm
Holy mackerel, I just read that the Orange One is contemplating Martial Law... if his terrorist minions who've bought his rhetoric re the election being stolen and create enough 'combat' situations with police and the National Guard at the 50 state capitals, could he pull it off? I would put nothing past this creature, absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 17, 2021, 08:06:43 pm
More delusional ravings from Aurangzeb!

The martial law process is somewhat vague but Congress has a role.  I think that should put the kybosh on any action the POTUS May attempt.

I reckon Pence would have to act to remove Aurangzeb from office if he tries anything.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 17, 2021, 08:08:10 pm
SPF, the group seems legit. Clearly, they want to make an bipartisan appeal on voting rights. Naturally, they had to go down the “both sides” path to do so but the truth is that voter suppression and gerrymandering are vital tools the GOP won’t easily surrender. They are motivated by White fright and concerns over demographic drift towards a non-White majority.

The problem for the GOP is that gerrymandering has created safe seats for them as if the Democratic Party didn’t exist. But the real electoral contests have become the GOP primaries. Fewer voters generally turn out for primaries, so the extremists can overpower the moderates. First, the Tea Party ran amok. Then Trump was able to intimidate moderate Republicans into pledging fealty to him or get primaried. Moderates like Jeff Flake, former Senator for Arizona, didn’t even bother trying to hold their seats as a result. Republicans in safe seats felt the need to become ever more extreme to avoid right-wing nut jobs outflanking them. But even so, 2 QAnon conspiracists were able to make it to Congress.

Cruz, Hawley, and Rubio have all swung hard right. Cruz and Hawley are both highly credentialled lawyers (top students from Ivy League Law Schools who clerked for Supreme Court Justices) who have little in common with Trump’s base but know they have to play to them to get where they want to go. Rubio was one of the “Gang of 8”, a bipartisan group of lawmakers who almost pushed through Immigration Reform under President Obama but he’s now a Trumper on this topic.

If voting reform killed off gerrymandering and ensured that the real contests were in duels between Republicans and Democrats, GOP primaries would be much more likely to advance candidates who could appeal to moderates. And when extremists did manage to push through extreme candidates, the Democrat challenger could put them to the sword in the Congressional elections.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 17, 2021, 08:52:14 pm
If the US was in Europe, Trump, Cruz, Hawley etc. would be locked in a sanatorium in the Pyrenees, and spend their days playing bilboquet, and Sanders would be a boring, run of the mill centrist.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 18, 2021, 11:28:12 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_BBg-7T5g8
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 20, 2021, 01:28:22 pm
Trump will soon realise how transactional his political power is. While he’s been top dog, he has been surrounded by sycophants. When he loses all power in a day’s time, he’ll lose all of those sycophants in the political class.

Stupidly, he has organised a massive farewell at the Andrews Air Base on the morning of the Inauguration. The email invitations he sent out almost begged the recipients to bring 5 friends with them to fluff out the crowd. Even Scaramucci got an invitation despite the fact he has been a caustic critic of his since leaving the White House.

Mitch McConnell and other Republican politicians have already declined, preferring to attend the inauguration. Reportedly, the insurrection killed off any desire to pander to him. And Trump has handed the Senate Republicans the ability to kill off his remaining political influence.

Wouldn’t it be wonderful if his farewell falls flat? Will he cancel it rather than appear in front of an underwhelming crowd?

He reminds me of Bob Hawke. Remember when he secured a role as a presenter on 60 Minutes on the promise he’d be able to work his friendships with world leaders to obtain exclusive interviews? He was humiliated when he couldn’t get through to Maggie Thatcher and was left in the press gaggle calling out to her while she turned her back on him. He failed to understand that he left those friendships behind him when he retired from politics. As someone said, “If you want a friend in Washington, buy a dog”.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on January 20, 2021, 06:50:01 pm
Trump will soon realise how transactional his political power is. While he’s been top dog, he has been surrounded by sycophants. When he loses all power in a day’s time, he’ll lose all of those sycophants in the political class.

Stupidly, he has organised a massive farewell at the Andrews Air Base on the morning of the Inauguration. The email invitations he sent out almost begged the recipients to bring 5 friends with them to fluff out the crowd. Even Scaramucci got an invitation despite the fact he has been a caustic critic of his since leaving the White House.

Mitch McConnell and other Republican politicians have already declined, preferring to attend the inauguration. Reportedly, the insurrection killed off any desire to pander to him. And Trump has handed the Senate Republicans the ability to kill off his remaining political influence.

Wouldn’t it be wonderful if his farewell falls flat? Will he cancel it rather than appear in front of an underwhelming crowd?

He reminds me of Bob Hawke. Remember when he secured a role as a presenter on 60 Minutes on the promise he’d be able to work his friendships with world leaders to obtain exclusive interviews? He was humiliated when he couldn’t get through to Maggie Thatcher and was left in the press gaggle calling out to her while she turned her back on him. He failed to understand that he left those friendships behind him when he retired from politics. As someone said, “If you want a friend in Washington, buy a dog”.

Transactional you suggest?

The flaw with your argument is Trump has the people. Outside a dozen leftie centric major cities, in their hoardes.

And if any of you have any interest in the evidence of this massive fraud (most of you won't obviously)

hereistheevidence.com
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 20, 2021, 07:59:22 pm
Does he have the people? He assured them he’d stop the steal. He didn’t. He incited an insurrection, calling on his supporters to walk with him to fight as patriots. But he didn’t go with them; he went home and watched the mayhem on TV. But that’s OK as he could protect them by pardoning the insurrectionists. He hasn’t as yet. If he does, that’ll perhaps seal his fate in the Senate trial. If he doesn’t, the patriots will feel betrayed. How are the QAnon fanatics going to react now their all-powerful Messiah is revealed to be just a naughty boy?

As Paul Keating said, let’s do him slowly. Leave him with some shreds of dignity for now so we can rip them off one by one in the coming months  :D  8)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 20, 2021, 08:10:21 pm
Is that site you referred to a parody site Flyboy. It’s a riot (pun intended) whether it means to be or not.

The Trump election fraud claim can be summed up this way:
Quote
The huge number of Black votes is proof of fraud given the GOP has spent decades making sure they wouldn’t be able to vote in those numbers.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 20, 2021, 08:30:54 pm
Quote
“The mob was fed lies,” McConnell said. “They were provoked by the president and other powerful people, and they tried to use fear and violence to stop a specific proceeding of the first branch of the federal government which they did not like.”
Surely, Mitch McConnell wasn’t saying that Trump’s election fraud claims were lies? If only Flyboy had sent him a link to that website ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 20, 2021, 09:22:02 pm
Transactional you suggest?

The flaw with your argument is Trump has the people. Outside a dozen leftie centric major cities, in their hoardes.

And if any of you have any interest in the evidence of this massive fraud (most of you won't obviously)

hereistheevidence.com

In terms of actual votes, Hilary Clinton got more than Trump in 2016, and Biden got more than Trump in 2020. He seems to have the loudest, most devoted, most attention getting voters, and I think frankly they tend to inflate how popular he really is. Losing the vote count in two consecutive elections appears to back that up.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 20, 2021, 09:52:20 pm
In terms of actual votes, Hilary Clinton got more than Trump in 2016, and Biden got more than Trump in 2020. He seems to have the loudest, most devoted, most attention getting voters, and I think frankly they tend to inflate how popular he really is. Losing the vote count in two consecutive elections appears to back that up.
Excuuuuuuuuuuuse me, ...................... there is no room for facts when discussing a Trump! ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on January 20, 2021, 09:59:03 pm
In terms of actual votes, Hilary Clinton got more than Trump in 2016, and Biden got more than Trump in 2020. He seems to have the loudest, most devoted, most attention getting voters, and I think frankly they tend to inflate how popular he really is. Losing the vote count in two consecutive elections appears to back that up.

Yet despite all the turbulence, and in the midst of a pandemic he appears to have handled poorly, he actually increased his vote... from 2016 (63 million) to 2020. (74 million)
You heard many folks in lead up documentaries and interviews say they voted for Trump in 2016 and weren't voting for him in 2020.
I don't recall any saying they voted for Clinton but would this time vote for Trump.
So if they were to be believed, Trump lost a lot of support but still managed to counteract and surpass that with support he picked up.

I suspect much of the real damage to Trump's support has actually occurred from his actions after the election, especially with the events  surrounding the  Capitol incident.
He wasn't a politicians bootlace (clueless) and the 'politicians' are back in charge of the asylum

But there must be some concerns surrounding that initial level of support.
If someone with a bit of 'political nous' can harness that support it may present the Democrats with a few problems a couple of years down the track.

But for now Trump's gone.
He wont be back
Much of his Republican support since the election was there with one eye on the Georgia Senate race and an attempt to present a bit of a united front . With Trump's antics post election that was always going to be a problem and it failed dramatically. That eroded Trump support amongst the Republican lawmakers and it was given another big whack with his Capitol capers. There's every chance an angry senate will do him over at the impeachment trial.

But it's time to move on.
Probably time to start the 'Biden alternative' thread.
"We wont have Nixon Trump to kick around anymore." (ironically Nixon did come back from that comment...but I doubt Trump will. ;) )
The challenge for Biden won't be an easy one.
He'll have the competing factors of trying to mend a bridge to the 'not so radical' Trump voters and Republican lawmakers (that's actually one of his strengths)... and a Democratic party with House, Senate and White House control hell bent on pursuing a progressive agenda.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 20, 2021, 10:09:14 pm
So if they were to be believed, Trump lost a lot of support but still managed to counteract and surpass that with support he picked up.
But is convincing people to cast a vote in a voluntary voting system the same as garnishing fresh support?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 20, 2021, 10:13:46 pm
Lods, the greater number of votes for Trump has to be seen, at least in part, as resulting from greater turnout of voters. Biden is the first presidential candidate to receive more than 80 million votes, precisely for this reason. The vote differential between Trump and his opponent increased from approx minus 2.6 million votes in 2016 to approx minus 8 million votes in 2020.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on January 20, 2021, 10:15:56 pm
But is convincing people to cast a vote in a voluntary voting system the same as garnishing fresh support?

I don't see how it isn't.
Biden's improved Clinton's vote by a lot more.
Getting people who didn't vote for you (or your party) four years ago to turn out and vote for you means that there must be some appeal there.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on January 20, 2021, 10:21:56 pm
Lods, the greater number of votes for Trump has to be seen, at least in part, as resulting from greater turnout of voters. Biden is the first presidential candidate to receive more than 80 million votes, precisely for this reason. The vote differential between Trump and his opponent increased from approx minus 2.6 million votes in 2016 to approx minus 8 million votes in 2020.

I'm not quite following your reasoning...
I'm a Republican voter circa 2016....Trump's the candidate. For whatever reasoning I'm not going to vote for him.
Fast forward to 2020. I'm out and I'm voting. Why?
Either something about Trump's message has resonated...or I'm more worried about the alternative.
The fact that the other side has inspired a greater turnout is neither here nor there.
Voting 'population increase' is a factor but not to the extent of improvement in both candidates numbers.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 20, 2021, 11:00:50 pm
Transactional you suggest?

The flaw with your argument is Trump has the people. Outside a dozen leftie centric major cities, in their hoardes.

And if any of you have any interest in the evidence of this massive fraud (most of you won't obviously)

hereistheevidence.com

You slay me FB!

Answer me one question, why wasn’t any evidence presented at scores of court cases in many jurisdictions?

The soon to be ex-POTUS has nothing ... and nothing to look forward to other than his impeachment trial and many other prosecutions over the next few years. 🙄
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 20, 2021, 11:03:37 pm
I'll make a call.

If George Floyd hadn't been killed sparking the BLM riots, Trump would have retained office.

His biggest issue was more about perception and this was deemed to be his fault publicly.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 20, 2021, 11:25:52 pm
By the way, the ongoing analysis of the POTUS's approval rating is currently sitting at 39.2% approval and 57.4% disapproval.  The most significant change was immediately after the failed insurrection. 

The POTUS's approval rating actually went up immediately after Floyd's death and the start of this round of BLM protests.  It declined during the Presidential debates and COVID spiralling out of control.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 21, 2021, 01:03:46 am
 :D  8)

More people attend your average Italian wedding than turned up to see off the worst President in history. Fortunately, he was able to turn out his family and he dragged in some hapless troops from Andrews Air Base to give him a fig leaf. How humiliating for him. I guess he can ask Sean Spicer to boast that there were 70 million patriots there in the biggest ever farewell to a President.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 21, 2021, 06:36:04 am
I'm not quite following your reasoning...
I'm a Republican voter circa 2016....Trump's the candidate. For whatever reasoning I'm not going to vote for him.
Fast forward to 2020. I'm out and I'm voting. Why?
Either something about Trump's message has resonated...or I'm more worried about the alternative.
The fact that the other side has inspired a greater turnout is neither here nor there.
Voting 'population increase' is a factor but not to the extent of improvement in both candidates numbers.

My point was that no matter how many of the "hordes" love Trump and voted for him in 2 elections, his opponent in both of those elections received more popular votes. This led me to ponder just how popular he really is. Also remember that one of those, Hilary Clinton, is not only a woman, but is viewed as untrustworthy and openly disliked by sections of the American population. And she got more votes than the bloke who is, according to some on here, universally adored.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 21, 2021, 07:40:41 am
I don't see how it isn't.
Biden's improved Clinton's vote by a lot more.
Getting people who didn't vote for you (or your party) four years ago to turn out and vote for you means that there must be some appeal there.
Convincing people who already support you to vote is not the same as picking up support, I realise this is a technical debate, but when you use a term like "with support he picked up" it's a bit Trumpesque!

 It's the deliberately loose use of language, and promoting all opinions as equal, that got us into this mess!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 21, 2021, 07:41:47 am
I'll make a call.

If George Floyd hadn't been killed sparking the BLM riots, Trump would have retained office.

His biggest issue was more about perception and this was deemed to be his fault publicly.
Well you are of course free to be wrong, as was Trump, as we all are.

We are also free to have an opinion, but nothing in nature states our opinions have to be treated equally, it's a perspective of life that many seem to struggle with, particularly it seems those who struggle the most are many with a high public profile!

I suspect Harris might be the next President.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on January 21, 2021, 07:49:43 am
My point was that no matter how many of the "hordes" love Trump and voted for him in 2 elections, his opponent in both of those elections received more popular votes. This led me to ponder just how popular he really is. Also remember that one of those, Hilary Clinton, is not only a woman, but is viewed as untrustworthy and openly disliked by sections of the American population. And she got more votes than the bloke who is, according to some on here, universally adored.

I see the point, but Biden and Clinton's popularity is not really relevant when assessing Trump's popularity.
Bill down  the street has more friends than I do...that doesn't mean I'm not popular...and am gathering new friends.
Sure the Democratic candidates attracted a lot more of the popular vote but...
Trump should have gone down in a screaming heap, voters should have deserted him in droves (and many did), but somehow he increased his vote by about 10 million.
That's ten million extra  people who were either satisfied with the way he was doing his job or were concerned about the alternative.
Now the fact that more folks turned out means both sides go up in numbers, but that doesn't negate the concerning reality that there was some factor that meant Trump attracted more people to vote for him than voted for him in 2016.
Trump's popularity claims (like most of his estimates) are over the top but how popular was he?..about 74 million (I suspect it's dropped a bit since November.)
You would think that the Democratic Party would be looking at those numbers with a little interest, and not dismissing them in the euphoria of victory in planning the next couple of years.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 21, 2021, 07:52:35 am
Trump should have gone down in a screaming heap, voters should have deserted him in droves (and many did), but somehow he increased his vote by about 10 million.
Trump blamed the pain he inflicted on the masses on others, his lies were accepted by his followers on face value and have not been exposed, when some tried to like the FDA and CDC he burned them at the stake. When he did that he inflicted even more pain, I suspect the irony is that his supporters make up a rather large percentage of the COVID dead, and if the science is correct and can't find a fix that number will at least double over the next 6 - 12 months!

The truth will out, it always does, Watergate wasn't a fluke as it is portrayed in popular media, it was an inevitability!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on January 21, 2021, 07:55:20 am
I'll make a call.

If George Floyd hadn't been killed sparking the BLM riots, Trump would have retained office.

His biggest issue was more about perception and this was deemed to be his fault publicly.

In my mind, not a shadow of doubt about that Thry
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on January 21, 2021, 07:59:55 am
Convincing people who already support you to vote is not the same as picking up support, I realise this is a technical debate, but when you use a term like "with support he picked up" it's a bit Trumpesque!

 It's the deliberately loose use of language, and promoting all opinions as equal, that got us into this mess!

It's the reality of the US electoral system.
Biden managed to motivate more of his folk to turn out.
If I don't feel committed enough to vote for a candidate in one election even though he shares my beliefs and I'm a registered voter for his party... If he picks up my vote in the following election he has "attracted my support."

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 21, 2021, 08:20:54 am
It's the reality of the US electoral system.
Biden managed to motivate more of his folk to turn out.
If I don't feel committed enough to vote for a candidate in one election even though he shares my beliefs and I'm a registered voter for his party... If he picks up my vote in the following election he has "attracted my support."
It's seems arbitrary to assert one voter response is more valid as a popularity measure while the other is just a motivation of existing supporters, have I missed a point?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on January 21, 2021, 08:34:15 am
The democrats want unity despite smashing Trump for 4 years. Good luck.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on January 21, 2021, 08:35:10 am
It's seems arbitrary to assert one voter response is more valid as a popularity measure while the other is just a motivation of existing supporters, have I missed a point?

Here's my concern.
We really don't know the motivation of those extra10 million who turned out for Trump.
Some may have been Republican voters who failed to vote last time but thought they'd give it a go this time.
But some may have been 'new comers' turned or motivated by the events of the last four years.
I'm not sure how you get into the head of each and everyone of those folks.
It's probably fair to say those extra 10 million are less 'rusted on' than Trump's extremist base.
They'll either become more committed in the next few years or go back to the couch.

I reckon it's a big mistake on the Democratic side if those numbers (and the other 60 odd million) are ignored, dismissed or diminished because they represent a strong base for future Republican leaders to mount an assault on seats of power.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 21, 2021, 08:40:52 am
My point was that no matter how many of the "hordes" love Trump and voted for him in 2 elections, his opponent in both of those elections received more popular votes. This led me to ponder just how popular he really is. Also remember that one of those, Hilary Clinton, is not only a woman, but is viewed as untrustworthy and openly disliked by sections of the American population. And she got more votes than the bloke who is, according to some on here, universally adored.

And Biden was hardly an inspiring, popular candidate!  To paraphrase Bill Hayden, a drover’s dog could have led the Democrats to victory.

When you have the likes of Mitch McConnell turning on the ex-POTUS, the GOP base will quickly move on and leave a small MAGA residue mourning their delusional crybaby hero.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 21, 2021, 09:12:24 am
Well you are of course free to be wrong, as was Trump, as we all are.

We are also free to have an opinion, but nothing in nature states our opinions have to be treated equally, it's a perspective of life that many seem to struggle with, particularly it seems those who struggle the most are many with a high public profile!

I suspect Harris might be the next President.

Nothing surer LP.  If Kamala Harris takes office during Biden's regime, the Republicans will win the next election easily.

People hate politics and the feeling of being deceived more than anything else.  In my mind, there has been no greater way to lose an election than changing leaders mid stream, because the people feel stiffed when their elected leader is replaced by someone who didn't win the election under their own steam.

We know all about this here.  From Rudd, Gillard back to Rudd, Abbot, Turnbull and now Scomo, its all about pigs putting their noses in the trough and I personally think that Trump won the election because of this more than anything else.  I'd wager that Trump supporters see him more as one of them than the rest.  The political figures tend to be better at the public appearance than actually giving anyone any real substance.

Trump didnt pretend.  he was too arrogant to bother.  He was exactly what he was, and that was ultimately what cost him more than anything else, but its also the reason he won office to start with, and its best we dont ignore that.  IMHO, id rather someone be despicable for being who they are, than despicable for being someone they arent.

Its amazing.  Politicians couldnt be more disconnected from joe average these days, which is the main reason people mistrust the whole political system.

The monarchy was despised for the same reasons universally.  Governments have come and gone, and it looks as though absolute power corrupts absolutely and the masses are the only ones paying for it.

the only thing modern politics has going for it, is that more people have more wealth than ever before, but I suspect that this is something that wont last and sooner or later the system will ensure class division continues.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 21, 2021, 09:24:50 am
The democrats want unity despite smashing Trump for 4 years. Good luck.
Trump and the GOP smashed Obama (and Biden) for 8 years, so they’re well ahead on that score. But maybe when Trump becomes old news for the GOP, none of that will matter.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 21, 2021, 09:33:24 am
The democrats want unity despite smashing Trump for 4 years. Good luck.

The Democrats would have been derelict in their duty if they hadn’t smashed the ex-POTUS.  The sad thing is that the Republicans are only just realising that they should have been smashing him too.

It wouldn’t surprise me if the insurrection brings about a more united congress.  The attitude of senior Republicans towards the ex-POTUS has hardened considerably since he placed them in harm’s way.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 21, 2021, 09:51:52 am
MBB, have you heard the gossip that Trump plans to start his own party? If so, you’d think Republicans will be thinking the enemy of our enemy is our friend ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 21, 2021, 09:59:11 am
Looks like Trump’s future is to be a much less powerful American version of Pauline Hanson!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on January 21, 2021, 10:06:07 am
Hilary called on all democrats and the public to never accept the result of the vote in 2020.

Trump asks obvious questions?  Sore loser.  Pathetic


Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 21, 2021, 10:07:50 am
MBB, have you heard the gossip that Trump plans to start his own party? If so, you’d think Republicans will be thinking the enemy of our enemy is our friend ...

I wonder if the Republicans, should the Orange One succeed at starting a new political party, would be concerned he could take the far right lunies away from them! And that would mean political oblivion for the Republicans... I wonder if that plays a part in their impeachment thinking.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on January 21, 2021, 10:13:59 am
The attitude of senior Republicans towards the ex-POTUS has hardened considerably since he placed them in harm’s way.

They didn't want him until he beat them all, now he's finished they don't need him.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 21, 2021, 10:34:44 am
And Biden was hardly an inspiring, popular candidate!  To paraphrase Bill Hayden, a drover’s dog could have led the Democrats to victory.

............................

Whatever other issues beset the Democrats in 2016, underestimating Trump was one of the biggest. He is very popular with a certain part of the American population, no doubt about it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 21, 2021, 10:40:05 am
I see the point, but Biden and Clinton's popularity is not really relevant when assessing Trump's popularity.
Bill down  the street has more friends than I do...that doesn't mean I'm not popular...and am gathering new friends.
Sure the Democratic candidates attracted a lot more of the popular vote but...
Trump should have gone down in a screaming heap, voters should have deserted him in droves (and many did), but somehow he increased his vote by about 10 million.
That's ten million extra  people who were either satisfied with the way he was doing his job or were concerned about the alternative.
Now the fact that more folks turned out means both sides go up in numbers, but that doesn't negate the concerning reality that there was some factor that meant Trump attracted more people to vote for him than voted for him in 2016.
Trump's popularity claims (like most of his estimates) are over the top but how popular was he?..about 74 million (I suspect it's dropped a bit since November.)
You would think that the Democratic Party would be looking at those numbers with a little interest, and not dismissing them in the euphoria of victory in planning the next couple of years.

I suspect we are discussing two different things Lods. Your focus is that Trump picked up lots of additional votes this time around (when he should have picked up none), but my focus is that no matter how many popular votes he receives, he's never won the actual popular vote. We (as in Carlton) could score 100 points per game, which in and of itself is impressive, and a big jump from previous years. But it matters little if the opp is scoring 120.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 21, 2021, 10:43:08 am
Hilary called on all democrats and the public to never accept the result of the vote in 2020.

Trump asks obvious questions?  Sore loser.  Pathetic

Where did she say that ?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on January 21, 2021, 10:53:09 am
Where did she say that ?


Where did she say that ?


Paul.  Here.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/hillary-clinton-says-biden-should-not-concede-2020-election-under-n1238156
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 21, 2021, 11:24:38 am
Paul.  Here.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/hillary-clinton-says-biden-should-not-concede-2020-election-under-n1238156

Hmm. I've read that three times, and I don't see any reference to not accepting voting results. To my eyes, she is urging Biden to not concede until all votes are counted, and to take up the fight with manpower, legal processes and the way Biden comports himself, all in response to baseless claims and bully boy tactics. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 21, 2021, 11:31:56 am
Hmm. I've read that three times, and I don't see any reference to not accepting voting results. To my eyes, she is urging Biden to not concede until all votes are counted, and to take up the fight with manpower, legal processes and the way Biden comports himself, all in response to baseless claims and bully boy tactics. 

That's the way I read it too.  Interestingly, Aurangzeb did pretty much as Clinton predicted ... not that you'd have to be a genius to foresee that  ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 21, 2021, 11:34:00 am
They didn't want him until he beat them all, now he's finished they don't need him.

I think that it's more that they want to get on and have a clear shot at the next election.  That's not going to happen if he is making noises about standing again.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 21, 2021, 12:05:34 pm
Nothing surer LP.  If Kamala Harris takes office during Biden's regime, the Republicans will win the next election easily.
I doubt that will be true, the GOP allegedly tried to make it hard for African and Hispanic Americans to have a influential vote this time around and failed dismally.

 I suspect if Harris is running for President it'll be ten times worse for the GOP next election. I see the GOP as representing the old ways and to me they are currently kicking and screaming against being led to their own inevitable extinction! I think it's a big mistake to think Trump is their man, and after this election I suspect he'll get a real taste of politics.

I realise some from the GOP side will claim this was a people's movement, but actually that ignores what is happening on the other side of politics which is equally active and in fact more active which can't be denied. At the moment the news media and social media chose to profit from the GOP side, as it's more radical and aggression makes better ratings, but the news and social media got a taste of what happens when the GOP radicals are set free to target them incited at the hands of a nutter, and they were left shaken! The GOP won't get that support next time, and they won't trust Trump or a Trump type not to go down that path again!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 21, 2021, 12:07:28 pm
Hmm. I've read that three times, and I don't see any reference to not accepting voting results. To my eyes, she is urging Biden to not concede until all votes are counted, and to take up the fight with manpower, legal processes and the way Biden comports himself, all in response to baseless claims and bully boy tactics. 
You are missing the Trump interpretation / translation. ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on January 21, 2021, 12:12:11 pm
Where did she say that ?


“Joe Biden should not concede under any circumstances, because I think this is going to drag out, and eventually I do believe he will win if we don't give an inch, and if we are as focused and relentless as the other side is,”

So, can we infer that she is inciting him not to concede under any circumstance because he will win if they dont give an inch?

Or are we going to change what she said because we only infer meaning into comments from the other?

I merely point these things out because I see people deciding to infer in one case, and taking the literal meaning in the other.

(yes I have written that disclaimer deliberately because if we apply the same inference to these words as we do Trump we should arrive at the same conclusion, yet somehow, we don't and I have no issue with what either stated).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 21, 2021, 12:17:23 pm
It's a lexical point, but "should not concede" is far from and not the same as "never accept the result of the vote ........ ".

The first is a quote, .................. I think the second is what British media describe as a verbal! ;D

A concession happens during counting not after it, after counting if you lose you are a loser, always was and always will be. You can't concede after you've lost, doing so is almost the dictionary definition of vacuous.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on January 21, 2021, 12:25:24 pm
Hmm. I've read that three times, and I don't see any reference to not accepting voting results. To my eyes, she is urging Biden to not concede until all votes are counted, and to take up the fight with manpower, legal processes and the way Biden comports himself, all in response to baseless claims and bully boy tactics. 

Perhaps she misspoke.  Anyway, Biden is in for one tough ride, exactly as he should be
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 21, 2021, 12:27:38 pm
Perhaps she misspoke was misquoted.  Anyway, Biden is in for one tough ride, exactly as he should be
I think the above might be more accurate, whether you think it as accidental or a deliberate verbal is a complete other issue! ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 21, 2021, 12:28:00 pm
I'll give Joe about 18 months to steady the ship, build some bridges then he will retire and Kamala will take over and give us Obama style management/policy for the rest of the term.
re: Trump....you dont necessarily have to win mega votes to be popular in a country where voting isnt compulsory, plenty of closet middle class Trump supporters IMHO.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 21, 2021, 12:30:26 pm
re: Trump....you dont necessarily have to win mega votes to be popular in a country where voting isnt compulsory, plenty of closet middle class Trump supporters IMHO.
No doubt @ElwoodBlues1‍ 

A lot of middle class make their money from the downtrodden, but they don't want the downtrodden to know it!

btw., Middle class has a very specific definition, most who think they are middle class are far far from it because they wrongly identify the middle class as upper class!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 21, 2021, 12:37:49 pm
No doubt @ElwoodBlues1

A lot of middle class make their money from the downtrodden, but they don't want the downtrodden to know it!

btw., Middle class has a very specific definition, most who think they are middle class are far far from it because they wrongly identify the middle class as upper class!
Its all a state of mind LP, Lord of the Flies stuff....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 21, 2021, 12:54:49 pm
Its all a state of mind LP, Lord of the Flies stuff....
Well, I suppose from me on the outside I'd like to think of it that way!

I remember once Dick Pratt sent his private jet from Echuca to Essendon and back to pick up some critical supplies, he/they/someone had left the steaks at home for the barbecue he was hosting. Now that is what I call non-linear thinking, and certainly not middle class! ;D

Middle class would be driving into Echuca after hours, locating and waking the butcher and getting him to prepare and provide the best available steaks at any price he can name, then boasting to your friends about it!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 21, 2021, 01:03:21 pm
Hmm. I've read that three times, and I don't see any reference to not accepting voting results. To my eyes, she is urging Biden to not concede until all votes are counted, and to take up the fight with manpower, legal processes and the way Biden comports himself, all in response to baseless claims and bully boy tactics. 

That was my interpretation as well.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 21, 2021, 01:09:47 pm
So important to give credit where it is due.

On a positive for the Orange One, he achieved two notable things.

1. He achieved necessary adjustments in trade with China, the US was on the wrong end of a few important trade deals. 2. His most incredible achievement, an amazing achievement, was to make George W look like a Rhode Scholar.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 21, 2021, 01:28:06 pm
“‘It’s Over’: Devastated QAnon Believers Grapple With President Joe Biden’s Inauguration “, HuffPost. Click Here. (https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/qanon-believers-react-to-joe-biden-inauguration_n_60087eebc5b6efae62fe3d10?ri18n=true)

These scumbags, the lowest of the low, really thought “the storm” was going to happen just before Biden was inaugurated: Trump and his Gestapo would descend on the assembled Democrats (and Pence!), round them up and execute them for running cannibalistic paedophilic rings, and then would inaugurate himself for another 4 years. Morons, but incredibly dangerous morons for sure. For all those who say that the US needs to understand Trump’s supporters and embrace them, that’s just not possible short of a mass lobotomy program.

Quote
Like a flipped switch, the attitude inside online QAnon communities shifted from glee to shock and misery: “NOTHING screwING HAPPENED!!!”; “So now we have proof Q was total bullcrap”; “I feel sick, disgusted and disappointed”; “Have we been duped???”; “You played us all”; “HOW COULD WE BELIEVE THIS FOR SO LONG? ARE WE ALL IDIOTS?”

Quote
Ron Watkins, the former administrator of 8kun — a platform that has long been vital to Q’s communication with believers — also pulled the plug: “We gave it our all,” he told his nearly 120,000 Telegram subscribers. “Now we need to keep our chins up and go back to our lives as best we are able.”

Quote
WE’VE BEEN SCAMMED INTO BELIEVING Q!!!” a Telegram user declared.

“WHAT NOW?!?!?!”

Maybe they’ll settle on delayed gratification: just wait until 2024 for the executions to begin!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 21, 2021, 01:44:44 pm
So important to give credit where it is due.

On a positive for the Orange One, he achieved two notable things.

1. He achieved necessary adjustments in trade with China, the US was on the wrong end of a few important trade deals. 2. His most incredible achievement, an amazing achievement, was to make George W look like a Rhode Scholar.
Not sure he should be given credit for addressing the China problem. Obama’s strategy was to implement the Trans-Pacific Partnership to solidify an alliance to counter China. Trump scrapped that and made no attempt to come up with an alternative way of building an alliance. In fact, he went the other way by stressing his America First strategy. He made it clear there’d be no inducements or protection offered and understandably Pacific nations felt it was in their best interests to accept aid through China’s Belt & Road program. China was able to peel away US allies and the most visible consequence was that those nations withdrew recognition of Taiwan.

Meanwhile, Trump tried to forge a US-China deal which would freeze out other countries (including Australia) while lavishing praise on Xi. It’s only when he couldn’t get enough concessions from the Chinese that he resorted to tariffs and rhetoric. Only in the last couple of days of his administration was there any condemnation over the genocide of the Uyghurs (after Trump had earlier assured Xi that he had no problems with it). And there was never any support given to pro-democracy protesters in Hong Kong.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 21, 2021, 02:27:54 pm
Hope I didn’t ruin your joke too much by taking your 1st point too seriously, Baggers. It set up point 2 nicely! And yes, Trump has helped Bush rehabilitate his image.

Wonder if Bush looks at Trump and sees a far more charismatic but far less cunning version of Dick Cheney ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 21, 2021, 02:53:21 pm
Unless folks have a massive crush on Trump and are only interested in personality politics, I really don't see why they would have the grumps with Biden. The Democrats under him are very close to the Republicans, with slightly better policies and much better manners. His cabinet, at least to my eyes, comprises corporate goons and ex Obama apparatchiks. Not a single progressive of note made the final cut - no Bernie Sanders, no Lizzie Warren, no Ocasio-Cortez. I certainly wasn't expecting anything different, but it still depresses me.

I'm not saying Dems and Reps are the same, but they are too similar IMO.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 21, 2021, 03:41:13 pm
I'm not saying Dems and Reps are the same, but they are too similar IMO.
Hmm, it's a global phenom....!

Polling and gerrymander ends up with them all in the same barrel!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 21, 2021, 04:00:10 pm
Didnt take the media long to attack Jill Biden, said she dressed like a airline stewardess for Joes big day.....
Had to laugh at Sleepy Bill Clinton who fell asleep during Joe's speech.
 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: bratblue on January 21, 2021, 05:54:39 pm

Had to laugh at Sleepy Bill Clinton who fell asleep during Joe's speech.
 

Dreaming of Monica.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 21, 2021, 06:21:20 pm
Dreaming of Monica.
Yep..probably thinking back to his 1st day on the job and the perks both official and non official that were heading his way...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 21, 2021, 07:43:34 pm
Hope I didn’t ruin your joke too much by taking your 1st point too seriously, Baggers. It set up point 2 nicely! And yes, Trump has helped Bush rehabilitate his image.

Wonder if Bush looks at Trump and sees a far more charismatic but far less cunning version of Dick Cheney ...

Thank you, Wing Man Mav... I just got on line and realized perhaps I should have used a tongue-in-cheek emoji with my post! Glad you saw the China reference as only a set-up for my attempted gag!! (your China explanation is spot on).

I think you and I are parked on exactly the same page when it comes to the Orange One.  :)  :)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: bratblue on January 21, 2021, 08:12:23 pm
Yep..probably thinking back to his 1st day on the job and the perks both official and non official that were heading his way...


Hahaha
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on January 21, 2021, 11:12:39 pm
At least we have an honest, straight up President now.


https://twitter.com/i/status/1352009338949398528

https://twitter.com/i/status/1350442359926960130
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 22, 2021, 08:11:20 am
Yet, the lesser of two evils it seems! ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 22, 2021, 09:04:30 am
Trump is getting a huge amount of publicity - maybe that's what he's really interested in rather than the presidency?
Bit of talk Trump might start his own media business ie Trump TV, as you say he likes the limelight and publicity, he will also want a forum to critique the new government and sell himself as the all American hero.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 22, 2021, 09:50:43 am
Bit of talk Trump might start his own media business ie Trump TV, as you say he likes the limelight and publicity, he will also want a forum to critique the new government and sell himself as the all American hero.

Aurangzeb, as a businessman, relied heavily on publicity to compensate for lack of acumen.  His business began going down the gurgler when he lost his reality TV celebrity status and his decision to run for president was apparently motivated by his need for greater publicity.

Getting back into media would seem to be a necessary next step for his business.  Making it a success is another matter  ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on January 22, 2021, 11:12:06 am
Aurangzeb, as a businessman, relied heavily on publicity to compensate for lack of acumen.  His business began going down the gurgler when he lost his reality TV celebrity status and his decision to run for president was apparently motivated by his need for greater publicity.

Getting back into media would seem to be a necessary next step for his business.  Making it a success is another matter  ::)

I am wondering how he is going to turn all of his upcoming court appearances into a reality TV Program.

Instead of 'The Apprentice' - how about 'The Defendant'. 

Or 'The Orange Man has to wear orange'
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 22, 2021, 12:46:32 pm
At least we have an honest, straight up President now.


https://twitter.com/i/status/1352009338949398528

https://twitter.com/i/status/1350442359926960130


Boy oh boy, talk about sucking people in... watch the first one again before the cut-away - no lip-synch. Take it from someone who worked for many years in audio/sweetening, this is a dub in/'fake'. A bullshizen clip, you can see for a second or two how his words don't synch with his mouth. Terrible job of editing, amateur stuff.

The 2nd one is where he admits and takes responsibility for a poor decision - plagiarizing, which resulted in a penalty taking him to 76th in the class.

Where do you find this obtuse stuff, FB?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 22, 2021, 01:00:25 pm
Trump could never run a media business. For God’s sake, he ran a casino into the ground. Who does that? He disproved the old saying that the house never loses.

His real estate business isn’t really a real estate business. The last time it built anything was years ago. The core of his business is licensing the Trump name to builders who for some incomprehensible reason think the name will help them sell apartments.

If you had to pick one industry in which you’d need to be agile and strategic, the media industry would be it. There has been so much disruption that you can’t just buy a business and go off golfing while it churns out money. As we’ve seen, Trump isn’t the type to hire top minds and get out of their way while they work their magic.

The only thing he has to offer the media is his “on air talent”. But can you really see him as a talk-back host? He talks at people; he doesn’t talk with them.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 22, 2021, 01:04:11 pm

Boy oh boy, talk about sucking people in... watch the first one again before the cut-away - no lip-synch. Take it from someone who worked for many years in audio/sweetening, this is a dub in/'fake'. A bullshizen clip, you can see for a second or two how his words don't synch with his mouth. Terrible job of editing, amateur stuff.

The 2nd one is where he admits and takes responsibility for a poor decision - plagiarizing, which resulted in a penalty taking him to 76th in the class.

Where do you find this obtuse stuff, FB?
Can’t someone reach down into that rabbit hole and drag Flyboy out of it? He’s gone full MAGA on us.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 22, 2021, 01:35:28 pm

Boy oh boy, talk about sucking people in... watch the first one again before the cut-away - no lip-synch. Take it from someone who worked for many years in audio/sweetening, this is a dub in/'fake'. A bullshizen clip, you can see for a second or two how his words don't synch with his mouth. Terrible job of editing, amateur stuff.

The 2nd one is where he admits and takes responsibility for a poor decision - plagiarizing, which resulted in a penalty taking him to 76th in the class.

Where do you find this obtuse stuff, FB?

That's the thing with Aurangzeb, you don't have to fake anything.  Everytime he opens his mouth, bile, vitriol, unsubstantiated generalisations, veiled threats, incitement, pandering to extremists, lunatic suggestions (eg inject bleach), dissembling, obfuscations, lies, falsehoods, exaggerations and/or inadvertent admissions of wrongdoing spew forth.

After watching the cringeworthy Jonathan Swann interview/flensing, I reckon TonyO's suggestion of a reality TV show with Aurangzeb in the witness box has merit ... but could you bear to watch it for more than a few minutes?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 22, 2021, 02:57:47 pm
Did George Constanza learn this from Trump or the other way around?
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSNjSZdT1ysi0KD50xGAqq1H0ns5UXeugzUdr_d0Kr_uqp8LqYFZu9ob8xP&s=10)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 22, 2021, 03:33:50 pm
Can’t someone reach down into that rabbit hole and drag Flyboy out of it? He’s gone full MAGA on us.
 COVID?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 22, 2021, 04:23:14 pm
I think if Trump has his own media TV Channel it would be more along the lines of how Kerry Packer ran the nine network with him vetting programming and employing his mates etc rather than fronting any programs. Ivanka needs a job so maybe she can front a show or two....
Trumps father made all the money, apart from the celeb apprentice all Trump juniors business ventures have been failures...his ego wont allow him to fade to black so I expect to see him potting Biden, Kamala etc from the sidelines, not straight away but when Joe and crew have a few tough hurdles to jump over and Trump can score a few points.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 22, 2021, 04:43:34 pm
The Orange One, like any self-respecting narcissist, will be stewing in and on who to blame the most and who to get vengeance on for THEIR failure... because losing the Presidency had nothing to do with him, you see, it's all about fraudulent election results, fake news, fake friends... and so on. In his brain, he is the rightful heir to the Presidency and anyone who disagrees is a fake or fraud and to be taken down, insulted and abused.

Isn't it interesting that when he arrived in the Presidency his favourite accusations became 'fake' and 'fraud.' Can't say he didn't warn us... about who he really was!

Whatever he does, he's going to, concurrently, have to deal with some pretty damaging lawsuits, expensive lawsuits, brand destroying law suits.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on January 22, 2021, 06:17:05 pm
Voter fraud, Russian interference. Same crap.

People pick their team and barrack for them.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 22, 2021, 06:55:04 pm
Voter fraud, Russian interference. Same crap.

People pick their team and barrack for them.

Weren't both of those intended to help Trump win ? They were both intended to spread false information and / or baseless claims, to sow the seeds of doubt and inhibit the Dems chances of victory. And the latter is, from what I can tell, now accepted as either historical fact or very likely to have occurred.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on January 22, 2021, 06:59:20 pm
Voter fraud, Russian interference. Same crap.

People pick their team and barrack for them.

I seriously doubt that after nearly 200 pages in this thread there have been many (if any) who have swapped sides on the basis of the points made.
Interesting discussion but not really influential.
Some opinions might have 'hardened' but not many switches.

You know the bizarre thing...If Biden hadn't lost his son, and motivation, and had been the Democratic candidate in 2016 this thread would have probably ended 4 years ago.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 24, 2021, 01:12:24 pm
Why would we want to change minds? Few if any of those who have posted in this thread can vote in US elections and I doubt search engines would have funnelled American internet surfers our way or else I’d have been inundated with death threats.

But don’t treat it like whether you like Star Trek or Star Wars or vanilla over pistachio ice cream. This wasn’t just a litmus test regarding political attitudes. Trump was clearly unfit to be a national leader, especially of the most powerful country in the world. He was capable of inflicting great harm on everyone, not just Americans. That we largely escaped unharmed wasn’t due to any moderation on his part. If he’d been able to steal this election, he would have smashed the few chains that stopped him from being a dictator.

At least Germans after the war mostly disowned Hitler and denied having supported him. Those who continue to support Trump after he went full-on fascist by inciting an insurrection should do some soul-searching. Trump did us a favour by saying the quiet part out loud so no one can pretend he was just misunderstood.

Here’s a tip going forward. When the next aspiring tyrant has a psychologist niece who warns s/he is a malignant narcissist who is incapable of compassion or empathy but derives sadistic satisfaction from hurting others and other psychiatric experts echo that warning, maybe don’t cheer him/her on  ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on January 24, 2021, 02:20:11 pm
Why would we want to change minds? Few if any of those who have posted in this thread can vote in US elections and I doubt search engines would have funnelled American internet surfers our way or else I’d have been inundated with death threats.

But don’t treat it like whether you like Star Trek or Star Wars or vanilla over pistachio ice cream. This wasn’t just a litmus test regarding political attitudes. Trump was clearly unfit to be a national leader, especially of the most powerful country in the world. He was capable of inflicting great harm on everyone, not just Americans. That we largely escaped unharmed wasn’t due to any moderation on his part. If he’d been able to steal this election, he would have smashed the few chains that stopped him from being a dictator.

At least Germans after the war mostly disowned Hitler and denied having supported him. Those who continue to support Trump after he went full-on fascist by inciting an insurrection should do some soul-searching. Trump did us a favour by saying the quiet part out loud so no one can pretend he was just misunderstood.

Here’s a tip going forward. When the next aspiring tyrant has a psychologist niece who warns s/he is a malignant narcissist who is incapable of compassion or empathy but derives sadistic satisfaction from hurting others and other psychiatric experts echo that warning, maybe don’t cheer him/her on  ::)

We all have different levels of perception of the last four years...You're definitely not a fan, and there are many who agree with you some even more fanatically....but that's your feelings.
Others feel similar, but slightly less intense (that's probably where I fit) .
Then there are others who regard Trump as pretty hard done by.

Not many come to these discussions without a pre-conceived bias, and once here rarely change their minds.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 24, 2021, 02:25:48 pm
Why would we want to change minds? Few if any of those who have posted in this thread can vote in US elections and I doubt search engines would have funnelled American internet surfers our way or else I’d have been inundated with death threats.

But don’t treat it like whether you like Star Trek or Star Wars or vanilla over pistachio ice cream. This wasn’t just a litmus test regarding political attitudes. Trump was clearly unfit to be a national leader, especially of the most powerful country in the world. He was capable of inflicting great harm on everyone, not just Americans. That we largely escaped unharmed wasn’t due to any moderation on his part. If he’d been able to steal this election, he would have smashed the few chains that stopped him from being a dictator.

At least Germans after the war mostly disowned Hitler and denied having supported him. Those who continue to support Trump after he went full-on fascist by inciting an insurrection should do some soul-searching. Trump did us a favour by saying the quiet part out loud so no one can pretend he was just misunderstood.

Here’s a tip going forward. When the next aspiring tyrant has a psychologist niece who warns s/he is a malignant narcissist who is incapable of compassion or empathy but derives sadistic satisfaction from hurting others and other psychiatric experts echo that warning, maybe don’t cheer him/her on  ::)
I'd suggest Hitler and more importantly the Nazi ideology had plenty of support after the war, the allies tried to employ denazification but didnt have the resources to carry it out as member/affiliated numbers were too high. Anti Communism was the theme that allowed the Hitler and the Nazis to gather support and that was even more prevalent when the war finished.
Patriotism was the only factor in the USA entering WWII after it was attacked by the Japanese, before that it was happy to stay out of it and make money selling transport/arms.
Trump with his anti China us vs them theme sold Patriotism as well, make America great again, think Adolf had the same line with make Germany great again or words to that effect. Trump got in on the back of his selling the Patriotic dream like Hitler did and it took a world war and a world pandemic to get rid of both of them but the hard core support was always there and always will be IMHO.
 I worked with some German Engineers who were kids during the war and they still believed in some of the Nazi concepts and ideals....There is always someone willing to buy what a tyrant is selling when they promise a better life and have the right sales pitch.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 24, 2021, 02:36:40 pm
It's probably stating the obvious, but I think Howie Hawkins is right. The 2020 election was a referendum on Trump, nothing more and nothing less. There was precious little time devoted to policy or any other substantive issues. 4 years wasted watching this complete train wreck and oxygen thief of a human lurch from one trash tweet /statement/ action to the next. It's a sad day when the greatest triumph of this election is getting rid of one individual.

I also agree with Hawkins that the honeymoon under Biden will be short lived.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on January 24, 2021, 02:49:51 pm
In my life time Obama is the only president who hasn't been a joker.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 24, 2021, 03:02:43 pm
EB, yep, no doubt there wasn’t an overnight 180. But it was useful that most Germans wanted to deny that they had personally supported the Nazis even if they were in it up to their eye balls. The ban on display of Nazi paraphernalia and the prohibition on Holocaust denial helped too. In contrast, the US has allowed the Deep South to repackage the Confederacy as the noble Lost Cause, ended reconstruction by allowing Jim Crow laws to practically enslave Black Americans, and allows the racists to pretend the Confederacy was just defending State rights rather than trying to perpetuate slavery. No doubt the racists plan on whitewashing Trump’s legacy too.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on January 24, 2021, 03:23:26 pm
His baptism of fire in only just beginning.  He already knows his mandatory 100 day wearing of masks will fail (but fine because he's at least trying) but the challenges on the international front will give him major headaches, tempered somewhat by the fact they're in similar trouble.  Poking the bear that is the second impeachment is plain dumb.  That's far from "healing", just more provocation.

 

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 24, 2021, 03:33:44 pm
There’s an incredibly high bar, it seems, when it comes to assessing provocative behaviour in the US. And no doubt the impressive right-wing capacity to forget outrages will mean no long-term damage will be done.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 24, 2021, 07:19:11 pm
In my life time Obama is the only president who hasn't been a joker.
And yet I have US friends and colleagues (not Trumpets) who say he was one of the worst. I don't follow US politics at all, he seemed like a very smart and personable guy to me. Some of the others have come across as jokers as you say.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Macca37 on January 24, 2021, 11:51:38 pm
What I find most depressing is the fact that when faced with the clearest choice at the election between a candidate promising to restore normality to the country and a self absorbed, lying, narcissistic president clearly prepared to tear up the constitution to remain in power, more than ninety million voters could not be bothered getting off their backsides to cast their vote.

When that number is added to the seventy million angry white, gun toting, illiterate and semi-literate Trumpers , the magnitude of the task facing Biden appears almost insurmountable.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on January 25, 2021, 09:37:11 am


[/quote]
What I find most depressing is the fact that when faced with the clearest choice at the election between a candidate promising to restore normality to the country and a self absorbed, lying, narcissistic president clearly prepared to tear up the constitution to remain in power, more than ninety million voters could not be bothered getting off their backsides to cast their vote.

When that number is added to the seventy million angry white, gun toting, illiterate and semi-literate Trumpers , the magnitude of the task facing Biden appears almost insurmountable.

It's not a clear choice, that's the problem.

I post on an American sports forum and last election a poster there who was one of the first members of the BLM group shocked the whole forum by saying he couldn't vote for Hillary as she was despicable and that he wasn't voting. Another member asked gun to your head Trump or Clinton and he said Trump.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 25, 2021, 11:37:03 am
It's not a clear choice, that's the problem.
In an absolute frame perhaps it's a lesser of two evils, but in a relative frame between those two candidates there is no contest.

So I'm clearly in agreement with @Macca37‍.

That is the problem with Trump's apologists, they claim one is just as bad as the other but that would be relative to what or who, Mother Teresa, Gandhi, etc., etc..?

Claiming Trump's behaviour is equivalent to anybody, is clearly an absurdity that makes further debate moot, like comparing the murder of Victor Chang to that of Muammar Gaddafi
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on January 25, 2021, 12:03:21 pm
Unless you live there really what would you know?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 25, 2021, 12:12:44 pm
Unless you live there really what would you know?
I know injecting disinfectant is deadly without needing to try it!

I wasn't alive during WW-II but I know Hitler was an a55hole, or is that just more fake news! ;)

I also know all perspectives, opinions and opposites are not equal.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 25, 2021, 12:25:02 pm
What I find most depressing is the fact that when faced with the clearest choice at the election between a candidate promising to restore normality to the country and a self absorbed, lying, narcissistic president clearly prepared to tear up the constitution to remain in power, more than ninety million voters could not be bothered getting off their backsides to cast their vote.

When that number is added to the seventy million angry white, gun toting, illiterate and semi-literate Trumpers , the magnitude of the task facing Biden appears almost insurmountable.

There's also the very determined campaign by the GoP to discourage and/or disqualify folk from voting and the US system  makes it hard for folk to vote.  Prior to COVID, almost all voting had to be done in person and that means taking time off work (or other pursuits) and standing in a line for a couple of hours.  The increased voter turnout this time was probably due as much to greater ease of voting as it was to getting your man elected ... or the other bloke defeated.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 25, 2021, 12:34:03 pm
It's not a clear choice, that's the problem.

I post on an American sports forum and last election a poster there who was one of the first members of the BLM group shocked the whole forum by saying he couldn't vote for Hillary as she was despicable and that he wasn't voting. Another member asked gun to your head Trump or Clinton and he said Trump.
That just shows we can’t treat subsets of the population as monoliths. There’ll be complexity and surprises. As an example, Muhammad Ali would have been at the head of BLM marches if he’d been around and yet he met with the Ku Klux Klan and accepted awards from them. Anti-Semite Christian Identity believers are strong supporters of Israel (if only because they long for the start of a race war). In this last election, it was noted that young black men were flirting with the idea of voting for Trump as they felt the Democrats were taking the black vote for granted.

Then you have the tendency for far left and far right activists to go to war with the moderates on their wing. The Tea Party and Trumpists have tried to kill off moderates like Flake and Romney while in  Australia the Greens are always on the lookout for the chance to bring the ALP to its knees. When they voted against Kevin Rudd’s ETS scheme, they killed his government and set the stage for a decade of Liberal governments which have done nothing on climate change. Maybe there was an aspect of the Greens letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, but I think this was just a pathetic political ploy.

I could definitely see why a BLM activist would have been underwhelmed by Hillary. Only in the US would she be seen as left-wing. She’s probably a US version of Johnny Howard or Maggie Thatcher and was a Republican before she met Bill. Her election would have brought progress for women but she probably wouldn’t have gone out of her way for the black community. That was pretty well demonstrated by her safe VP pick: Sen. Tim Kaine, a largely unknown moderate southern white guy. It probably was better for BLM to have an arch-nemesis in Trump who exemplified the racism they were fighting rather than Hillary sweeping the issue under the carpet.

And we have to accept that the constant smears spread by the Republicans probably did make Hillary unelectable for many. We’ve seen that Trump managed to persuade 30% or so of the US population that the election was stolen from him even though there has been absolutely no evidence of it. You look back in wonder that the Republicans were able to paint Hillary as corrupt with a bunch of concocted scandals from Benghazi to her emails to the Clinton Foundation to innuendo she was a serial killer. But bullcrape works.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 25, 2021, 03:52:39 pm
I generally agree Mav. The internet is full of individual opinions which get construed as broadly held beliefs, or justifications for disliking someone. Someone on the other side hates the same person you hate, so you must be right.

I'm not really a fan of the Bill/Hilary/Obama/Biden faction of the Democrats. I've been reading about Biden's pledges and policies, and it all sounds pretty good. If he can carry them out, the US will be the better for it. But my concern is that we saw this under Obama - pretty rhetoric, but very little genuine action to wrest power and wealth away from Wall Street and back into Main St.

There's little in Biden's history to suggest he has even a mildly progressive agenda. I'll be watching with interest.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 25, 2021, 04:57:54 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/biden-s-honeymoon-period-could-be-very-short-20210125-p56won.html
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 25, 2021, 05:04:13 pm
There's little in Biden's history to suggest he has even a mildly progressive agenda. I'll be watching with interest.

So far he’s making our Scotty from marketing seem like a pillar of the religious right rump :)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 25, 2021, 05:24:28 pm
So far he’s making our Scotty from marketing seem like a pillar of the religious right rump :)

Yes perhaps, but that's not a great standard.

I listen to Chris Hedges, Richard Wolff and Noam Chomsky as much as I can. Both Hedges and Wolff say there is limited scope for improving the lives of most Americans under Biden. Chomsky seems to believe that Biden is pliable, and with enough pressure from the average American (protests etc.), he can be pushed in a more progressive direction. If this pressure doesn't occur, Chomsky believes he will follow a similar path to the Clintons and Obama (i.e not great).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 25, 2021, 06:01:19 pm
Yes perhaps, but that's not a great standard.

I listen to Chris Hedges, Richard Wolff and Noam Chomsky as much as I can. Both Hedges and Wolff say there is limited scope for improving the lives of most Americans under Biden. Chomsky seems to believe that Biden is pliable, and with enough pressure from the average American (protests etc.), he can be pushed in a more progressive direction. If this pressure doesn't occur, Chomsky believes he will follow a similar path to the Clintons and Obama (i.e not great).

I think there's limited scope for any president to improve the lives of most Americans.

The Dems do have flimsy minorities and individual senators and congresspersons will oppose Biden's laws if they think it will cost them their job.  Biden also has to manage a very conservative population, both in terms of politics and opposition to change of any sort.  It's also a population that thinks Bernie Sanders is a socialist  ::)  

Biden is off to a decent start by re-signing up to the Paris accord, re-committing to the WHO, beginning to wind back Aurangzeb's environmental vandalism and taking COVID seriously, but it's going to be a long, slow four years.

I heard an American political commentator state that fixing the problems is not Biden's job, it's the responsibility of the people.  If the people don't want change, it won't happen.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 25, 2021, 09:08:04 pm
I think Trump was right about the WHO and its role in the pandemic, slow to react, whitewashed China's slow response to sharing data and also took their time to admit there was a world crisis. On China's demands they ignored Taiwanese Doctors who were blowing the whistle on what was really happening ,of course China is the WHO's second biggest contributor and looking for a big stake in the world of big pharma. Trump might have been playing games to cover up his own failings but the WHO needs an overhaul and the umbelical cord to China cut and Biden should have waited IMO before re-committing to such a dodgy organisation.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on January 25, 2021, 09:35:53 pm
Don't start me on the U.N.  >:D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 25, 2021, 09:59:07 pm
I think Trump was right about the WHO and its role in the pandemic, slow to react, whitewashed China's slow response to sharing data and also took their time to admit there was a world crisis. On China's demands they ignored Taiwanese Doctors who were blowing the whistle on what was really happening ,of course China is the WHO's second biggest contributor and looking for a big stake in the world of big pharma. Trump might have been playing games to cover up his own failings but the WHO needs an overhaul and the umbelical cord to China cut and Biden should have waited IMO before re-committing to such a dodgy organisation.

Aurangzeb pulled out of WHO simply because it wasn’t in step with his agenda and doing so helped fuel his COVID conspiracy theories and cover up his inadequate response.

The WHO might have some problems but I would put my trust in WHO well before Aurangzeb’s administration and the PRC, as well as Brazil and the other unfortunate nations with populist rulers, and Sweden for that matter 🙄
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 26, 2021, 09:56:07 am
There is some irony in those GOP claims that COVID was false or fake news.

Now we know Trump made those claims by using graphs and charts that his team had faked, not the graphs and charts he'd been supplied by the CDC!

All those claims of fake news, ....... it truly does turn out to be the case that the smeller is the fella!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on January 26, 2021, 12:29:39 pm
Aurangzeb pulled out of WHO simply because it wasn’t in step with his agenda and doing so helped fuel his COVID conspiracy theories and cover up his inadequate response.

The WHO might have some problems but I would put my trust in WHO well before Aurangzeb’s administration and the PRC, as well as Brazil and the other unfortunate nations with populist rulers, and Sweden for that matter 🙄
I wouldnt trust any of the above....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 26, 2021, 05:59:02 pm
I think Trump was right about the WHO and its role in the pandemic, slow to react, whitewashed China's slow response to sharing data and also took their time to admit there was a world crisis. On China's demands they ignored Taiwanese Doctors who were blowing the whistle on what was really happening ,of course China is the WHO's second biggest contributor and looking for a big stake in the world of big pharma. Trump might have been playing games to cover up his own failings but the WHO needs an overhaul and the umbelical cord to China cut and Biden should have waited IMO before re-committing to such a dodgy organisation.
The world needs to cut the umbilical cord to China. Farken disgrace they are.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on January 27, 2021, 02:16:32 pm
The way the lunatic left carry on you would think America created covid and Trump was covering it up.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 31, 2021, 07:09:23 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/trump-loses-lead-impeachment-lawyers-a-week-before-trial-20210131-p56y6o.html
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 31, 2021, 08:18:33 pm
The way the lunatic left carry on you would think America created covid and Trump was covering it up.

Serious question. What exactly is the lunatic left and more specifically, who are they?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on January 31, 2021, 08:50:41 pm
Anyone who believes in Medicare for all. Only communists believe in that.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on January 31, 2021, 09:03:11 pm
Serious question. What exactly is the lunatic left and more specifically, who are they?

IMO, at a very broad level, it's basically used for anyone you don't like. More specifically, it applies to anyone ideologically or otherwise connected to Labor, the Greens, the Unions etc. And anyone who disagrees with Fox News and Mango Mussolini.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on February 01, 2021, 08:49:48 am
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/trump-loses-lead-impeachment-lawyers-a-week-before-trial-20210131-p56y6o.html

Donald must be starting to feel very lonely.  The orange overalls will match his tan.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 01, 2021, 09:30:55 am
Thank you, Wing Man Mav - sharp observation. Thank you, Pauly - spot on. Same page.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 01, 2021, 10:30:17 am
Anyone who believes in Medicare for all. Only communists believe in that.
Paul Keating?

It's appalling that very wealthy individuals can end up being treated on the public purse for conditions they could easily self-fund or insure themselves, but how do you actually stop it?

But Medicare and funds like it have a genuine place to both enable access to health care and to help fund it. Most who globally oppose it fall in the "I'm alright Jack" category, and have zero regard for those who need genuine help.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on February 01, 2021, 11:20:41 am
Anyone who believes in Medicare for all. Only communists believe in that.
Healthcare is not a commodity to be bought and sold by the wealthiest.  The further a country heads down the 'user pays' road, the more likely that social division and anarchy will escalate.

The reason this country has a relatively harmonious society is because people get taken care of.  Many would argue the care is too generous, but the alternative of a US-style fend-for-yourself system brings a bigger set of problems IMHO.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 01, 2021, 11:34:43 am
Healthcare is not a commodity to be bought and sold by the wealthiest.  The further a country heads down the 'user pays' road, the more likely that social division and anarchy will escalate.

The reason this country has a relatively harmonious society is because people get taken care of.  Many would argue the care is too generous, but the alternative of a US-style fend-for-yourself system brings a bigger set of problems IMHO.

I agree, but beware the small government, cost cutting, neo liberal types, who have been slowly but surely whittling away at this "being taken care of" for decades.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 01, 2021, 11:55:52 am
You need people paying private to take the load off the public system. Its a balancing act, the private system also provides technologies the public can't afford but can access. The private system also trains the next group of specialists under the guidance of what are usually the better skilled private specialists learning the latest techniques.
If you want a fully public system of quality then the government need to double the funding to the public system and charge joe average more medicare levy.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on February 01, 2021, 12:15:38 pm
You need people paying private to take the load off the public system. Its a balancing act, the private system also provides technologies the public can't afford but can access. The private system also trains the next group of specialists under the guidance of what are usually the better skilled private specialists learning the latest techniques.
If you want a fully public system of quality then the government need to double the funding to the public system and charge joe average more medicare levy.

Sorry, I don't agree that the Private health system is more advanced than the Public in this country .  The Private system tends to pick and choose what sort of healthcare it provides based on what is financially sustainable, for example it is happy to do knee repairs on footballers because the outcome (and hence the cost) is very predictable.   But when it comes to things like little old ladies with broken hips, they tend to shy away simply because it is more difficult healthcare to provide and manage (they send these patients down to the Public hospital who are glad to admit them immediately as 'private' patients).

Many Private medicos still work in the Public system, since this is where they are more likely to have access to cutting-edge technology and research.  Governments love buying the latest gizmos (the bigger the better), simply because it gives the pollies a chance to stand next to it on the Sunday news.  Privates won't invest until they know they will make money out of it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 01, 2021, 12:22:49 pm
You need people paying private to take the load off the public system. Its a balancing act, the private system also provides technologies the public can't afford but can access. The private system also trains the next group of specialists under the guidance of what are usually the better skilled private specialists learning the latest techniques.
If you want a fully public system of quality then the government need to double the funding to the public system and charge joe average more medicare levy.


They could just tax the top 1% properly and pay for it that way. No need for Joe Average to be charged anymore.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 01, 2021, 12:37:06 pm
An investment in healthcare and education is an investment in society.

Anyone who thinks otherwise about those things, needs to really have a good hard think about what type of country they want to live in, and what it could look like if everything becomes a matter of survival of the fittest.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 01, 2021, 01:00:19 pm
Sorry, I don't agree that the Private health system is more advanced than the Public in this country .  The Private system tends to pick and choose what sort of healthcare it provides based on what is financially sustainable, for example it is happy to do knee repairs on footballers because the outcome (and hence the cost) is very predictable.   But when it comes to things like little old ladies with broken hips, they tend to shy away simply because it is more difficult healthcare to provide and manage (they send these patients down to the Public hospital who are glad to admit them immediately as 'private' patients).

Many Private medicos still work in the Public system, since this is where they are more likely to have access to cutting-edge technology and research.  Governments love buying the latest gizmos (the bigger the better), simply because it gives the pollies a chance to stand next to it on the Sunday news.  Privates won't invest until they know they will make money out of it.
Have to disagree, you get cross over with extreme specialty areas like neurosurgery as they are in short supply and work in teams
in both systems but in other areas you get grad doctors and grad specialists in the public system and thats the B grade team.
Example, my daughter needed reconstructive hand surgery after a dog attack left one of her hands mutilated.
The plastics team at a Western Suburb public hospital fecked up the repair as well as failing to deal with the infection that had set in due to the delay in being treated, the grad specialist said it could wait a couple of days...?
End result was we had to take her to a City based Private Group of Hand Surgeons on referral, only they had the micro surgery skill level to repair the nerve/tendon damage and deal with the infection, one of her fingers is now shorter but at least she has a working hand.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 01, 2021, 01:14:46 pm
End result was we had to take her to a City based Private Group of Hand Surgeons on referral, only they had the micro surgery skill level to repair the nerve/tendon damage and deal with the infection, one of her fingers is now shorter but at least she has a working hand.
Had a similar experience with our youngest when he got hit in the forehead by a flying debris from a Vicroads mower.

But I've heard the other side as well, I've been told stories from critical patient transport staff that will tell you the Private Hospital will take their pick of cases for top dollars, but when some things go bad they ship the trouble patients off to the public system anyway.

But it doesn't really make much difference, Public in Private, Private in Public, what matters is access to the care.

What I do not like the idea of very wealthy taking a spot on the queue from a public patient, when they can fund care themselves and set a schedule outside the system. I've a friend who works in council and private sector home care social services, she had a wealthy patient she would roll up to bathe and take for outings funded on the council purse, that would have his chauffeur drive them in his Rolls to go shopping for new clothes while he waited for his turn at a publicly funded hospital procedure! This happens more than people think, and it stems from a why should I pay attitude when I can get it free.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 01, 2021, 01:49:52 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/trump-loses-lead-impeachment-lawyers-a-week-before-trial-20210131-p56y6o.html
Impeachment only leads to a political trial, not a criminal one. But if you were to compare it to a criminal trial, the best analogy would be a crime boss who has bribed all 12 jurors and hardly has any need for a good lawyer. Trump knows that 17 Republican Senators won’t vote to convict. He just needs someone to put on a show to keep his base happy. And the best lawyers don’t want to breach their ethical obligations by doing so.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 01, 2021, 01:51:46 pm
Impeachment only leads to a political trial, not a criminal one. But if you were to compare it to a criminal trial, the best analogy would be a crime boss who has bribed all 12 jurors and hardly has any need for a good lawyer. Trump knows that 17 Republican Senators won’t vote to convict. He just needs someone to put on a show to keep his base happy. And the best lawyers don’t want to breach their ethical obligations by doing so.

Yes, fair points Mav.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 01, 2021, 02:05:54 pm
If Trump wanted the best legal defence, I reckon he should highlight the pre-planning by extremist groups including the Proud Boys and the Oathkeepers. If extremists had planned a violent insurrection before Trump’s rally had occurred, his rhetoric at the rally was irrelevant to their actions.

Of course, the extremists were like special forces who needed the regular army alongside to provide the sheer manpower required to overwhelm Capitol Security. And Trump delivered that to them in spades. But the more important reason not to run this line of defence is that Trump doesn’t want to be seen as lagging in his own most hardline supporters when he doesn’t have to do so given he won’t be convicted. Why risk political blowback from his own base?

Politically, he’d be better off trying to use the trial as a way of spreading the stop the steal lie and complaining about being silenced when the impeachment managers try to shut that down for being irrelevant to the article of impeachment.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 01, 2021, 02:34:52 pm
Apparently the Washington Post beat me to the punch. Josh Dawsey reports the lead lawyers withdrew when Trump insisted they relitigate his election fraud claims.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 04, 2021, 09:40:18 pm
Don Lemon came up with a great name for the GOP: the QOP. Says it all quite nicely. When Republicans give Greene-Taylor a partial standing ovation and spent most of their time haranguing Cheney who is farther right than Genghis Khan, it’s obvious there’s a problem.

PS: Maybe Rep. Jacqui Speirs (& maybe others) beat Don Lemon to the punch. But the main point is that I didn’t come up with it, and I wish I had!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 05, 2021, 07:00:17 pm
We can all sleep easy its all been an act and the Trumpster has been acting out the role of president, none of its real.
He has quit the actors guild and officially retired from movies...
https://au.yahoo.com/lifestyle/trump-quits-screen-actors-guild-scathing-letter-005139589.html
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 05, 2021, 09:00:37 pm
He only got into Home Alone 2 b/c he made a cameo part of the price of filming in his hotel. His cameo made into that film but when he used the same strategy with other films, his cameo was left on the cutting room floor.

SNL learnt their lesson when they had him as a guest host. The comedians discovered that he had no sense of humour and he went through the set of jokes they’d put together for him and used his infamous Sharpie to put a line through them all. All he wanted to do was “jokes” about how rich he was (in his own lunchtime).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 06, 2021, 03:20:11 pm
Ha ha! Right-wingers love to whinge about cancel culture and bemoan the loss of their right to free speech (aka the right to humiliate and cancel anyone they don’t like).

Fox News uses this sort of whining to fill its shows. But now they’ve cancelled and silenced Lou Dobbs despite his show being their top-ranked show. To silence him even further, Fox News will warehouse him: he’ll be paid under his contract to make sure he can’t just move his show to rival cable channels Newsmaxx or OAN. Whatever happened to Fox’s hatred of cancel culture and silencing political speech?

Of course, the reason why Dobbs has been warehoused is that he’s a far right conspiracy nut who was pushing Trump’s election fraud lies. Now that 2 of the voting machine companies are suing Fox and other Trump co-conspirators for billions of dollars, Fox is realising its hosts’ free speech might actually be very costly indeed  :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 06, 2021, 03:40:19 pm
There's a tactic the right wing media use in Australia of making a false claim, trying to get some mud to stick, then when challenged or sued, they cough or some dough or issue a "heartfelt" apology. Miranda Devine did it with Quaden Bayles, Peta Cretin did it with Kevin Rudd recently, and Alan Jones has done it repeatedly over the years. As low rent as it gets.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 06, 2021, 03:49:31 pm
There's a tactic the right wing media use in Australia of making a false claim, trying to get some mud to stick, then when challenged or sued, they cough or some dough or issue a "heartfelt" apology. Miranda Devine did it with Quaden Bayles, Peta Cretin did it with Kevin Rudd recently, and Alan Jones has done it repeatedly over the years. As low rent as it gets.
It's a tactic used by many radicals and anarchists on all sides of politics to poke the bear!

I'm not sure they want the mud to stick, but no doubt they do want to get a reaction.

But in fairness to all those people, institutes and entities, Trump took this to whole new level because he doesn't even require it to have a semblance of truth! At least the rest of them seem to construct conspiracies that at least have some cursory evidence, correlation or connection, even if it is easily debunked.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 06, 2021, 06:50:36 pm
There's a tactic the right wing media use in Australia of making a false claim, trying to get some mud to stick, then when challenged or sued, they cough or some dough or issue a "heartfelt" apology. Miranda Devine did it with Quaden Bayles, Peta Cretin did it with Kevin Rudd recently, and Alan Jones has done it repeatedly over the years. As low rent as it gets.

Absolutely.

Get that click-bait out there, get those clicks happening, get those ratings up, rake in the loot and keep your job... your job being opportunism, manipulation, exaggeration and drama to get attention... at the expense of accountability, ethics, integrity, decency and intelligence.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: jeza on February 06, 2021, 06:58:18 pm
Loved Credlin 's on air apology. Complete humiliation and just laid bare how pathetic these people are.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 06, 2021, 07:37:11 pm
Loved Credlin 's on air apology. Complete humiliation and just laid bare how pathetic these people are.

One day, in a moment of rare clarity, she will look in the mirror and mutter, "What the fck have I become? I've sold my soul."
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on February 06, 2021, 08:09:55 pm
Ha ha! Right-wingers love to whinge about cancel culture and bemoan the loss of their right to free speech (aka the right to humiliate and cancel anyone they don’t like).

Fox News uses this sort of whining to fill its shows. But now they’ve cancelled and silenced Lou Dobbs despite his show being their top-ranked show. To silence him even further, Fox News will warehouse him: he’ll be paid under his contract to make sure he can’t just move his show to rival cable channels Newsmaxx or OAN. Whatever happened to Fox’s hatred of cancel culture and silencing political speech?

Of course, the reason why Dobbs has been warehoused is that he’s a far right conspiracy nut who was pushing Trump’s election fraud lies. Now that 2 of the voting machine companies are suing Fox and other Trump co-conspirators for billions of dollars, Fox is realising its hosts’ free speech might actually be very costly indeed  :D

Election fraud lies? Hardly. Greatest fraud ever perpetrated in/on a western nation.

hereistheevidence.com

or hot off the press:

https://rumble.com/vdlebn-mike-lindell-absolute-proof-exposing-election-fraud-and-the-theft-of-americ.html
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 06, 2021, 09:28:13 pm
Ha ha! Right-wingers love to whinge about cancel culture and bemoan the loss of their right to free speech (aka the right to humiliate and cancel anyone they don’t like).

Fox News uses this sort of whining to fill its shows. But now they’ve cancelled and silenced Lou Dobbs despite his show being their top-ranked show. To silence him even further, Fox News will warehouse him: he’ll be paid under his contract to make sure he can’t just move his show to rival cable channels Newsmaxx or OAN. Whatever happened to Fox’s hatred of cancel culture and silencing political speech?

Of course, the reason why Dobbs has been warehoused is that he’s a far right conspiracy nut who was pushing Trump’s election fraud lies. Now that 2 of the voting machine companies are suing Fox and other Trump co-conspirators for billions of dollars, Fox is realising its hosts’ free speech might actually be very costly indeed  :D

And there you have it. When bullshyte gets you ratings and subsequently, advertising loot... who cares what the d1ckheads say, let's just count that green. But, hey, when the bullshyte is gonna cost in law suits... let's play safe, silence our d1ckheads.

Ah, FOX employees, when are you gonna realise Rupe has no loyalty to anything other than loot... no matter how you get it - and he don't wanna have to pay out any expensive lawsuits. He loves ya when you're rakin' in the loot regardless of truth/accuracy... but if you cost him loot - blood in the water... yours.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 06, 2021, 09:53:20 pm
Election fraud lies? Hardly. Greatest fraud ever perpetrated in/on a western nation.

hereistheevidence.com

or hot off the press:

https://rumble.com/vdlebn-mike-lindell-absolute-proof-exposing-election-fraud-and-the-theft-of-americ.html


FB, mate...

While we're at it...

https://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2016/jan/26/earth-totally-flat-conspiracy-bob

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/10/how-spot-reptilians-runing-us-government/354496/

Sorry FB, I'm not trying to mock you but help to show you how much 'scientifically proven' cr@p is out there masquerading as truth. As just one example, A Bolt often quoted a 'scientific' source for his climate change debunking, I visited the site of this 'expert' about 12 months ago (gone now) who claimed that carbon dioxide, which plants love, was actually not causing greenhouse gas but rather reforesting the globe and climate change bullshizen. He provided a map of the world showing the incredible reforestation, and guess what, on his map of the world the Nullabor was a rich, green, magnificent forest. I soon noticed A Bolt ceasing to quote this quack.

My Pillow dude, Liddell, will soon be exposed as a Polly Farmer drop kick. But if you want to go to the gold plated conspiracy theorist... just YouTube David Icke and watch some of his stuff.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 07, 2021, 01:44:28 am
I don’t get it. When did Trump start saying foreign interference in elections is a bad thing? Is he just pissed the Russians didn’t steal this one for him?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on February 07, 2021, 09:31:55 am
FB, mate...

While we're at it...

https://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2016/jan/26/earth-totally-flat-conspiracy-bob

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/10/how-spot-reptilians-runing-us-government/354496/

Sorry FB, I'm not trying to mock you but help to show you how much 'scientifically proven' cr@p is out there masquerading as truth. As just one example, A Bolt often quoted a 'scientific' source for his climate change debunking, I visited the site of this 'expert' about 12 months ago (gone now) who claimed that carbon dioxide, which plants love, was actually not causing greenhouse gas but rather reforesting the globe and climate change bullshizen. He provided a map of the world showing the incredible reforestation, and guess what, on his map of the world the Nullabor was a rich, green, magnificent forest. I soon noticed A Bolt ceasing to quote this quack.

My Pillow dude, Liddell, will soon be exposed as a Polly Farmer drop kick. But if you want to go to the gold plated conspiracy theorist... just YouTube David Icke and watch some of his stuff.

I laughed. That's your best retort Baggers?

If you wanted to display any intellectual rigour, you could address some of the issues in the following:

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/be36dc6d-0df4-4c20-addf-fca72be46150/The%20Immaculate%20Deception%2012.15.20.pdf

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/be36dc6d-0df4-4c20-addf-fca72be46150/The%20Art%20of%20the%20Steal%201.5.21%20FINAL.pdf

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/be36dc6d-0df4-4c20-addf-fca72be46150/The%20Navarro%20Report%20Volume%20III%20Final%201.13.21-0001.pdf

Or you might even ponder why there are so many court actions still moving through the system:

http://wiseenergy.org/Energy/Election/2020_Election_Cases.htm

Or the court ordered forensic review of the voting machines in Antrim County (they've now done similar work in 2 or 3 other places, not yet released):

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/20423772/antrim-county-forensics-report.pdf

Shutting your eyes and saying it never happened- or drawing an analogy to Icke or Bolt - is pathetic and lame.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 07, 2021, 10:06:24 am
It’s interesting that Biden is considering denying Aurangzeb access to intelligence briefings.  The buffoon never took any notice of them when he was POTUS.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 07, 2021, 11:03:14 am
I laughed. That's your best retort Baggers?
...
Shutting your eyes and saying it never happened- or drawing an analogy to Icke or Bolt - is pathetic and lame.

You're a wag, FB... how did you find out my middle names are Lame & Pathetic?  ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 07, 2021, 11:06:05 am
It’s interesting that Biden is considering denying Aurangzeb access to intelligence briefings.  The buffoon never took any notice of them when he was POTUS.

I really don't think the Orange One has had access to intelligence for about 74 years.  ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 07, 2021, 04:38:43 pm
No when Trump realises he can sell the intelligence briefings for heaps, he’ll want to get his small, dainty and dirty hands on them.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 07, 2021, 04:51:26 pm
Love the way FB tells us we should spend a week studying nonsense. You’d think if it made any sense, he could précis the arguments and any facts supporting them, but I’m guessing even for him it’s hard to produce a coherent summary. And we wouldn’t want to destroy the mystery of going down a maze of rabbit holes, would we?

But help is at hand! No doubt Trump’s crack legal team will clarify everything at his trial this week. Or maybe not. I fear his legal team might be as useful as the Suicide Squad sent in to rescue Brian in The Life of Brian.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 07, 2021, 06:11:04 pm
Love the way FB tells us we should spend a week studying nonsense. You’d think if it made any sense, he could précis the arguments and any facts supporting them, but I’m guessing even for him it’s hard to produce a coherent summary. And we wouldn’t want to destroy the mystery of going down a maze of rabbit holes, would we?

But help is at hand! No doubt Trump’s crack legal team will clarify everything at his trial this week. Or maybe not. I fear his legal team might be as useful as the Suicide Squad sent in to rescue Brian in The Life of Brian.

Yep, with blokes like Russell James Ramsland, Jr making a mess of falsifying affidavits, it's no wonder that Aurangzeb's legal teams couldn't/wouldn't present evidence.

The sad thing is that our very own FlyBoy has been sucked in by lies, deception and false claims  :(
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on February 08, 2021, 09:48:20 am
Watched the final episode of 'The Trump Show' on the box last night (made by the BBC), and Michael Cohen (Trump's lawyer 2006-2018 who organised the Stormy Daniels payout and went to prison for it).

Can't help thinking the whole world dodged a major bullet when the Orange One missed out on a return gig.

Trump was best described as a 'narcissistic sociopath' who has no conscience about what he does to anyone, provided the final outcome is best for him.

He has also used the 'rigged' excuse for virtually every contest he was involved in, but lost - it was even the reason The Apprentice didn't get an Emmy award, he claims....

And yes, FB, anyone can find a plethora of articles about how Trump was 'ripped off' in the election - just like you can also find articles arguing that the Earth is flat, Elvis is still alive, the Moon walk didn't happen, and Wayne Harmes was in the 5th row of the grandstand when he knocked the ball back in '79.

What is an absolute fact is he in no longer POTUS, he can now face litigation (and there is plenty waiting for him), and he is having trouble finding/keeping a law firm who will represent him.  If nothing else, his future will be 'interesting'.





 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 08, 2021, 10:55:24 am
Reminds me of the (purported) old Chinese curse, “May you live in interesting times ...”.

The last 4 years were definitely interesting. :-*

I hope the next 4 years will be even more interesting for Trump.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 08, 2021, 11:50:34 am
Reminds me of the (purported) old Chinese curse, “May you live in interesting times ...”.

The last 4 years were definitely interesting. :-*

I hope the next 4 years will be even more interesting for Trump.

Maybe the Orange One's love of orange will, in time, be deeply satisfied by his daily attire!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 08, 2021, 12:05:14 pm
Would the prison guards allow him to bring his make-up artist and hairdresser with him? The white-collar jails seem to be like luxury resorts. Maybe he’ll live life behind bars like Colombian drug lords do. Maybe he’ll be able to play golf every day. It’ll be as if he’s still President.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 08, 2021, 12:11:56 pm
Maybe the Orange One's love of orange will, in time, be deeply satisfied by his daily attire!
It's hard to see how this impeachment can lead to any serious conviction, he'd almost have to become negligent with respect to his own welfare for something to go so badly.

Would he deliberately trigger such events to spur further civil unrest, looking at the long term outcomes?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 08, 2021, 12:19:16 pm
Well, he acts like a grumpy toddler, so anything’s possible. His election strategy, if you can call it that, was self-defeating.

If he does go to jail, imagine being his secret service detail. I guess it would be an easy gig if Trump is locked up with larcenous bankers but the scenery wouldn’t be very interesting. Maybe they’d spend their time keeping an eye on the prison guards.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on February 08, 2021, 12:29:04 pm


If he does go to jail, imagine being his secret service detail. I guess it would be an easy gig if Trump is locked up with larcenous bankers but the scenery wouldn’t be very interesting. Maybe they’d spend their time keeping an eye on the prison guards.
Despite the list of possible charges he may face, it is hard to see him doing any time.

Between appeals, and sacking/hiring lawyers, it will drag on for years.  He is more likely to shuffle off the mortal coil first (and even then his team will probably claim that his death is 'fake news'....)

And at that time, if he is invited to take the 'Down' escalator, he won't need to worry about the Orange tan as the temperature will probably make that his standard complexion.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 08, 2021, 12:41:16 pm
Despite the list of possible charges he may face, it is hard to see him doing any time.

Between appeals, and sacking/hiring lawyers, it will drag on for years.  He is more likely to shuffle off the mortal coil first (and even then his team will probably claim that his death is 'fake news'....)
There was online commentary that suggested some of those HK / China / Russia decisions hinted at him leaving the door open to emigrate! Not sure that is accurate. Funnily, there were a couple of world leaders who joked he might not be welcome in their own country, but maybe it wasn't such a joke!

What on earth would his supporters do if he became a Red?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 08, 2021, 12:47:09 pm
I don't seriously believe he'll do jail time. His greatest risk is being found guilty of tax evasion and for at least one of the rape/sexual assault charges to also stick... then, maybe.

However, in a very real sense, he's already in prison - the paranoia levels required to sustain such narcissism keep him in a prison of fear. Have you ever seen him laugh? He's an unhappy camper whose only little joys in life come from golf and adoration.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 08, 2021, 12:48:41 pm
He's an unhappy camper whose only little joys in life come from golf and adoration.
It's been alleged he's a massive cheat at golf, using the toe iron, so if true no doubt looking over his shoulder there as well!

In this week past we saw a massive cheat in professional US golf, a bouncing ball was deemed plugged, then lifted, and the benefactor became the winner.

What would St Andrews think?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 08, 2021, 12:58:16 pm
The QOP doesn’t mind Russia now and moving to Russia wouldn’t harm Trump’s relationship to QTrumplicans. In some ways, it would allow him to be seen as the President in exile. He’d be like General Douglas MacArthur, Charles de Gaulle or the Ayatollah Khomeini waiting for the pretenders to be swept from power before his triumphal return.

The Russians are more White Christian Nationalists than communists these days. Trumpists don’t mind right-wing authoritarianism, so they aren’t repulsed by Putin & Co.

PS: this is mostly tongue-in-cheek. A presidential candidate must have been a resident of the US for the previous 14 years, so everyone could breath a sigh of relief should he emigrate (everyone apart from those concerned with national security that is).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 08, 2021, 01:07:04 pm
The rape claims won’t lead to criminal charges. Unbelievably, those charges are time-barred (in Oz, they can be brought irrespective of the time that’s passed). The allegations have only found life in civil courts because Trump called 2 of the complainants liars. He now faces defamation suits. In the case of E Jean Carroll, she alleges forcible vaginal rape by Trump. What a guy he is  ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 08, 2021, 09:07:49 pm
Presumably, Biden will invite the Bucs to the White House. What will Tom Brady do? He supposedly considers Trump a friend. And are there any Good Ol’ Boys in the team who think Biden stole the election?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 14, 2021, 02:04:16 pm
Well, 57 senators voted to convict Aurangzeb of inciting insurrection but 43 voted against conviction.  Mitch McConnell stated that Aurangzeb (he didn’t actually use that name  :) ) was guilty but it would be wrong to convict an ex-POTUS  ::)

And, of course, Aurangzeb is bleating about it being the “greatest witch hunt in American history.”  How many times can he be the subject of the greatest witch hunt?

Only in ‘Merica  :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on February 14, 2021, 03:27:24 pm
Waste of time and money by the democrats.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 14, 2021, 04:32:38 pm
Bad strategic move for the QOP. Some morons on the right theorise that the Democrats were desperate to shut Trump out of running in 2024 because they’re afraid of him. I think they’re giddy with excitement at that prospect. They had to fly the flag: if they hadn’t impeached or done something else to show they took his misconduct seriously, they risked being accused of cynically enabling a would-be dictator so he could destroy the Retrumplicans from the inside. But now the QOP fully owns its own nightmare.

Ordinarily, a newly-elected President whose party holds a wafer-thin majority in both houses would be resigned to his party losing both Houses of Congress at the mid-term elections. But George Dubya saw the GOP expand its majorities in the wake of 9/11. Trump is Biden’s 9/11.

Trump will continue to hollow out the QOP, going after moderates until it’s only the party of right-wing extremists. Meanwhile, the Democrats are free to continue to go after Trump via congressional committees and tie Republicans facing re-election to him. If they’d done so after he’d been banned from running again, they’d have been accused of flogging a dead horse. Trump is one of the most effective tools Democrats have for fundraising and turning out the vote.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 14, 2021, 06:24:00 pm
It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

I actually  think pretty much the opposite will happen.
Trump will fade away.
More likely than not he will be tied up with legal issues.
He won't be a candidate in 2024

The Republicans will make a concerted effort to rid his influence on the party but they'll do it in a way that they hope will enable them to keep that rump of his support.
McConnell signalled that much with his words today.

Trump is a straw man.
His influence has been a rallying point for extremists on the right but it's always been a false facade.
He's an incompetent politician with no real commitment to anything but Donald Trump and has nowhere near the top level support often accredited to him.
Some folks that have passed through his administration have seen him as a vessel to promote their own radical views but often these relationships have been short lived.
There is no loyalty to Trump...it's always been to his extreme views and used by folks at various levels to push their own extremism.

At the more moderate end of the right side of politics (the bulk of  Republicans) there is support, not so much for Trump, but for the party... and concern of the alternative, and that's what turned folk out to vote for that party, as seen in the down ticket races.

The Republicans lost the senate because of Trump's antics post election and there will be a large degree of anger remaining regarding that loss.

I tend to agree with MBB...impeachment was a waste of time and only welcomed by the rusted on Democrat.
If anything it's taken focus away from what should be a honeymoon period for Biden.
It's meaningless and will be remembered down the track as very much just a political tactic, decided pretty much on political lines with a few GOP senators who were not really close, or big fans of the ex-President anyway, voting against him

There's always been two aspects to this discussion.
There's the moral side where I think most folks regard Trump as having  being weighed, measured and found extremely wanting.
And there's the political side where concentrating on the 'man' has often led to poor political decisions and outcomes.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 14, 2021, 06:26:01 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/feb/13/mitch-mcconnell-trump-republicans

Sounds to me like McConnell engineered a delay in the impeachment trial to get him and his flunkies off the hook, then expects the criminal justice system to do his dirty work for him.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 14, 2021, 06:33:21 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/feb/13/mitch-mcconnell-trump-republicans

Sounds to me like McConnell engineered a delay in the impeachment trial to get him and his flunkies off the hook, then expects the criminal justice system to do his dirty work for him.

Exactly.
If you have a trial based on a set of political rules don't expect a 'good, decent, correct result'...expect political tactics and political results.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 14, 2021, 08:35:29 pm
Teflon Trump, nothing significant will stick IMO and I think its a waste of time and money . I think the Republicans will want him out of the news, he wont run again and he will fade into the background apart from slow news days where journos might seek him out for some spicy theatrical commentary.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 14, 2021, 10:27:44 pm
Teflon Trump, nothing significant will stick IMO and I think its a waste of time and money . I think the Republicans will want him out of the news, he wont run again and he will fade into the background apart from slow news days where journos might seek him out for some spicy theatrical commentary.
 Yes, they want his supporters, they don't want him!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 15, 2021, 08:13:18 am
Exactly.
If you have a trial based on a set of political rules don't expect a 'good, decent, correct result'...expect political tactics and political results.

The impeachment trial gave the Democrats an opportunity to showcase the intent of the insurrectionists and the threat Aurangzeb posed to US democracy.  Maintaining the rage is important in preventing any repetition, as well as using the spectre of Aurangzeb to boost the mid-term vote.

McConnell made it clear that his aim was to protect his brand rather than his man.  He will happily throw Aurangzeb under a bus, provided there’s limited political fallout.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 15, 2021, 09:09:18 am
The impeachment trial gave the Democrats an opportunity to showcase the intent of the insurrectionists and the threat Aurangzeb posed to US democracy.  Maintaining the rage is important in preventing any repetition, as well as using the spectre of Aurangzeb to boost the mid-term vote.

I guess the questions are-
How does that impact?
Who does it impact?
How long term is its effect?

1/3 of voters of voting age didn't even care enough to vote.
1/3 of voters voted for more of the same.

The videos of the insurrection no doubt had an impact and shocked some folks
The videos of the attacks on Trump (using similar 'fighting'  language) through his Presidency would have dragged a few back to the other side.

The end result...banner headlines 'Trump Acquitted'.
How many folks go past the headline.
We do, because we've demonstrated over the many pages of this thread that it interests us.
But to the average Joe/Josie, the 'American in the street', how deeply do they look at that.
They'll be more concerned about the future under Biden than what's occurred under Trump.
They'll be looking forward rather than back.
Trump will be a "been there, done that...no thanks"

As  a result I believe Trump's influence will fade now he's out of the spotlight. (as  much as he'll try and crawl back in)
Fairly quickly actually, as Republicans move to break the ties.
He'll create a bit of mischief in the next 12 months, his legacy will be that like minded souls will take up the cudgels (they'll see a rump support they can make use of)  but the main thrust of the GOP will be a repositioning to a more moderate approach.
I suspect by the time the mid-terms roll around the Republicans will have moved well away from the Trump era

Now that's just a guess on my part and others will have a completely different view of the future.
Time will tell.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on February 15, 2021, 10:51:19 am
I have quite a few good friends in the United States.  It's a 50 / 50 split between Republican and Democrat.  That divide will never be broken as the views are unbelievably entrenched.

But if there is a (more or less) common theme amongst them it's this.  Get rid of Pelosi.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 15, 2021, 10:52:01 am
I had to check the calendar, Lods,  to make sure it isn’t 2015. That’s exactly the way Republicans were thinking then. Almost all of Trump’s opponents in the primaries assumed Trump would implode and they sucked up to him in the hope they’d inherit his supporters when he did. Sound familiar? Do you think Never Trumpers would be as confident as you are that the Republican Party will rebound like a rubber ball?

I’m guessing Australians see the US through Australian eyes. We assume the Democrats and Republicans are pretty much the same as the Labor & Liberal Parties. I don’t think they are. What exactly is the Republican Party? Unlike here, there isn’t much of a party structure. It becomes the party of the Presidential Candidate. The RNC is a bit like a Body Corporate in an apartment block: it has a fundraising function and dispenses those funds to GOP candidates come election time and keeps voter databases GOP candidates can use. But it doesn’t seem to exert much control over the GOP’s direction. It is supposed to develop the party platform and promote it, but it lost that figleaf when it announced ahead of Trump’s most recent nominating convention that GOP policies were whatever Trump announced. This is lightyears away from the factional structure of the Labor Party.

By the way, there’s not much more centralised or diffused power in the Democratic Party either. Bernie Sanders was pretty close to winning the nomination twice, and yet he isn’t even a Democrat! He’s an independent Senator who caucuses with the Democrats (as does Senator Angus King). The only nod to centralised power is the super delegate system.

Both parties hold primaries that are open to any registered voter, whether they are registered as Democrats, Republicans or independents. Compare that to the Australian system where pre-selections are confined to party members and the parties control who can become or remain members.

The GOP is now becoming the party of QAnon. And Trump is their guy. We see that from Marjorie Taylor Green avoiding censure from the QOP while Liz Cheney and other Republicans face censure for voting in favour of impeachment. That’ll probably kill it in the coming elections but individual Republicans have as much chance of turning back the hordes as King Canute had of turning back the tide. Who can save the GOP from Trump?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 15, 2021, 11:15:15 am
Lots of good points Mav.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 15, 2021, 11:17:25 am
Wouldn’t it be great to see a 9/11 style commission into the insurrection?  :)

That’ll make it hard for the ReTrumplicans to shove this whole insurrection thing down the memory hole. It would be the Democrats shoving it down the other GOP hole à la the Benghazi inquiry. And it should keep Trump’s lawyers busy for a year resisting subpoenas served on him and his minions.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 15, 2021, 11:45:55 am
It'll probably take about 12 months to see what the post Trump political landscape looks like.
No doubt he baffled us all in 2016...If we re-read the first 20-30 pages of this thread.
Few could see him in the top job early on (there were a few).

I just feel average folks (having tried a dose of Trump)...will be a bit exhausted by it all, and looking to put it behind them.
It was a novelty, something different the first time...It wouldn't be the same second time around.

No doubt some sections on the Democratic side will see an advantage in "maintaining the rage' and keeping it at the forefront.
The Republicans face a battle between those who wish to rid themselves of  the Trump association and those who see a core group to build on.

Trumps influence will be the big  question mark.
Will he be to distracted by his own legal issues?
Will his enthusiasm for the contest last four years?
He'll want to fight for a better spin on his time, so he'll take opportunities to attack Biden and others for any perceived failings.
But having achieved the top position will his attention revert to a better score on his golf card.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 15, 2021, 12:28:10 pm
He has the problem of former dictators: once you lose power, how do you protect yourself? Trump’s answer may be to retain as much power & influence  as he can by keeping a stranglehold over the QOP. After all, wealth + power in the US pretty much puts you above the law.

He has shown the Presidency itself didn’t do much to slow down his golf game. He just ignored the usual President stuff so he could enjoy not only golf but also his other favourite pastime of wreaking vengeance on anyone who crosses him. He can continue to do both while leaving his minions to organise a new presidential campaign.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 15, 2021, 01:04:10 pm
He has shown the Presidency itself didn’t do much to slow down his golf game. He just ignored the usual President stuff so he could enjoy not only golf but also his other favourite pastime of wreaking vengeance on anyone who crosses him. He can continue to do both while leaving his minions to organise a new presidential campaign.
Stuff will out, it always does, but I don't think political enemies are the real problem for him if some of the financial rumours are true.

I suppose the problem for the Democrats, and to Trumps advantage, is that you can generally settle your way out of financial problems.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 16, 2021, 11:36:00 am
@Mav

 What did you think of Michael van der Veen's outburst on TV?

I actually have some sympathy for van der Veen here, in that the basic premise about media commentary is correct, the media do not report they offer heavily opinionated political editorials. Whether it's News Ltd or Bloomberg, they do not start from a neutral position and haven't for a long long time.

However, I can't see him staying Trump's man for long, because if that outburst was sincere he must have awful trouble representing his client! It would be impossible for him to reconcile those comments about truth with his clients rhetoric.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 16, 2021, 12:19:46 pm
Just bluster. He’s just pushing Trump’s fake news smear. And we know Trump’s okay with the right-wing media as long as it pushes his lies.

The media took a while to understand that it couldn’t repeat misinformation and disinformation uncritically. That reached its nadir when cable news channels broadcast Trump’s rallies live in the lead-up to the 2016 election, allowing Trump to repeat his lies ad nauseum. Psychologists would say that continued exposure to lies predisposes the audience to accept them as true. It was like giving Trump another Twitter, but this one wasn’t limited to 180 characters (or whatever the Twitter limit is) and was in living colour.

The media now calls out lies as lies. Hooray! And the media also cracked down on giving Trump live TV coverage for “rallies” he called under the guise of press conferences or Coronavirus Task Force presentations.

That doesn’t mean the media descends into political editorials by doing so. For those, you need to turn to Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, and Jeannine Pirro.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 16, 2021, 01:47:54 pm
I have quite a few good friends in the United States.  It's a 50 / 50 split between Republican and Democrat.  That divide will never be broken as the views are unbelievably entrenched.

But if there is a (more or less) common theme amongst them it's this.  Get rid of Pelosi.

Pelosi’s approval rating is just above Aurangzeb’s 🙂

Interestingly, her approval rating jumped from 30% to 38% when she announced the first impeachment and has hovered around and above that mark ever since.

I wonder how much of her disapproval rating is down to failure to effectively counter Aurangzeb?

It surprises me that US politics and public life features so many geriatrics ... not that there’s anything wrong with older folk 🙂
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 16, 2021, 02:42:11 pm
Pelosi’s approval rating is just above Aurangzeb’s 🙂

Interestingly, her approval rating jumped from 30% to 38% when she announced the first impeachment and has hovered around and above that mark ever since.

I wonder how much of her disapproval rating is down to failure to effectively counter Aurangzeb?

It surprises me that US politics and public life features so many geriatrics ... not that there’s anything wrong with older folk 🙂

Comparing the Orange One and Pelosi is a fascinating exercise. I find it hard to come up with a kind word for either. The Orange One is a narcissistic, dishonest, self-aggrandizing bozo. Pelosi I find cold, ineffectual, bitter and somewhat vulturish!

I'd put them together on a deserted island and see what happens. My money is on Pelosi to kill and eat the Orange One.

On a more humanitarian / psychological note (which I prefer)... I see them as damaged in very different ways and shouldn't be let anywhere near public office, though Pelosi is probably more sane than the Orange One.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 16, 2021, 02:53:28 pm
I have quite a few good friends in the United States.  It's a 50 / 50 split between Republican and Democrat.  That divide will never be broken as the views are unbelievably entrenched.

But if there is a (more or less) common theme amongst them it's this.  Get rid of Pelosi.
Like turkey vs tofurky!

The USA seems inherently misogynous to political active females, it's all a bit old school, is Harris the fuse that lights the cure!

There does seem to be a fundamental problem in US politics, on both sides, I'm not sure what the common cause might be! ::)

(https://scotscoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/donald.jpg)(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/skr9I6knEm7aQVdarJIRU3o7Tr4=/0x0:4081x2721/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:4081x2721):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/5979907/trump-point.jpg)(https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/1d1212c/2147483647/resize/1160x%3E/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2F0b%2F28%2Fd37a1a344ac48566989e09d3b19f%2F190529-trump-gty-773.jpg)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 16, 2021, 04:30:59 pm
Not sure Pelosi deserves the hatred. I put it down to 2 things: the Republicans have conducted a sustained smear campaign against her (and we’ve seen that works with low information voters and those hermetically sealed inside the right-wing media bubble), and she’s a woman (as LP noted).

Right-wingers love to paint her as a communist but the progressives see her as too centrist. It would be interesting to ask Pelosi haters why they hate her. If they’re honest, they’ll confess it’s because Fox News told them to do so. Or that they don’t like that she’s involved in Satanic sexual assaults on children after which she eats them.

But how do they get worked up over her when her opposite number is Kevin McCarthy and the QOP leader in the Senate is Mitch McConnell? If they don’t like her because she represents Beltway politics, surely she’d pale in comparison to them.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 16, 2021, 05:00:23 pm
Or that they don’t like that she’s involved in Satanic sexual assaults on children after which she eats them.
Hmm, looking at her I don't think she could eat a whole one! :o

Unless of course she's a Flerken in disguise! ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 16, 2021, 05:31:53 pm
Or that they don’t like that she’s involved in Satanic sexual assaults on children after which she eats them.

 :)) Now that's one helluva line... perhaps some therapy?  ;)  :))  Or maybe you've missed your vocation as a fantasy writer for adults only!  :))  :))

In all seriousness, she does have an image problem and needs people to help soften her appearance. And to learn to whip in a smile/laugh and to turn seeming bitterness into determination for truth. I should have put some emoji on a few of my comments a few posts back. Though I stand by my Orange One comments... I bet he has undiagnosed C-PTSD (Borderline Personality Disorder) and adult ADHD (along with sociopathy, which shares narcissism with BPDs).
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 16, 2021, 06:50:47 pm
The belief in cannabilistic Satanic child sex rings involving Democrats is a core QAnon belief, incredible as that might seem.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 16, 2021, 07:05:12 pm
The belief in cannabilistic Satanic child sex rings involving Democrats is a core QAnon belief, incredible as that might seem.

A former colleague, a charming English lass of Jamaican heritage, has been sucked right into that QAnon pit.  I can’t believe how a relatively normal person (whatever that is) has lost her ability to think critically 😢
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 16, 2021, 07:10:24 pm

I'd put them together on a deserted island and see what happens. My money is on Pelosi to kill and eat the Orange One.

Yes, I think I’d prefer to duke it out with Aurangzeb.  Pelosi would be using my splintered bones for toothpicks before I knew what was happening 😉
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 19, 2021, 01:05:33 pm
Lods, we’re seeing reality diverging from your prediction. Trump is maintaining his gravitational pull on the QOP. Your theory that Trump would fade away after a year or so was rational. Unless this happens, the QOP will remain in the wilderness. But the QOP has opted for the irrational option that allows individual Republicans to retain some power in the short-term.

A few Republicans tried to reach escape velocity and escape Trump’s pull such as Lindsay Graham and Nikki Haley. But they could tell they couldn’t manage it, so they’re changing their tunes as they’re sucked back into slavish fealty to Trump.

How can any of the potential Republican presidential hopes make a case if they’re just parroting Trump’s line. Why vote for pale imitators when you can vote for the real thing?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 19, 2021, 01:40:22 pm
How can any of the potential Republican presidential hopes make a case if they’re just parroting Trump’s line. Why vote for pale imitators when you can vote for the real thing?
Dead man walking, inside job. If QAnon think the accusations that stuff like that happening on the other side are real, QOP can't deny that it happens on their side of politics!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 20, 2021, 08:30:19 am
Trump was a very successful president if your Guage is how well the masses were distracted from those who truly weird power and are powerful.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 20, 2021, 09:15:03 am
Lods, we’re seeing reality diverging from your prediction. Trump is maintaining his gravitational pull on the QOP. Your theory that Trump would fade away after a year or so was rational. Unless this happens, the QOP will remain in the wilderness. But the QOP has opted for the irrational option that allows individual Republicans to retain some power in the short-term.

A few Republicans tried to reach escape velocity and escape Trump’s pull such as Lindsay Graham and Nikki Haley. But they could tell they couldn’t manage it, so they’re changing their tunes as they’re sucked back into slavish fealty to Trump.

How can any of the potential Republican presidential hopes make a case if they’re just parroting Trump’s line. Why vote for pale imitators when you can vote for the real thing?

100%

The Republicans have an almighty quandary to deal with. Not only did the Orange One expose/fuel the chasms between the hard right, traditionals and more 'reasonables' but he did give them very good numbers for a strong base - how the hell do you hold that base AND deal with such disparity and dysfunctionality within the party? You certainly will not unite a political party using the rhetoric of the divider, whose very MO was was personality based around his own grandiosity!! :o  ::)

The Orange One was a deeply divisive character with serious personality and mental health issues, demonstrated quite spectacularly through a Neanderthal and fundamental attitude of 'winners & losers / "you're either fer me or you're agin me"'. If you're for him, you're fantastic, great, beautiful... and he may even declare love for you. If he thinks you're 'agin' him, you're a fake, fraud or unpatriotic. Addressing this lingering toxic cloud within the Republican Party will be especially difficult for such conservative people, who, by their very nature, fear change.

So if a future Republican leader decides to follow the Orange One's script... may the gods help them! They'll end up in a world of cr@p. The Orange One was authentically himself - as deranged as that was. The newbie actually needs to be the opposite of the Orange One... someone who unites AND holds the base - good luck finding him (won't be a her, that's a leap to far for conservatives).

And no point hoping for Jesus/a Messiah (we at the CFC have learned that!!!!) to reappear, if he did he'd be an independent... and Jesus was something of a radical and definitely not conservative, but that's another topic.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 20, 2021, 10:14:52 am
@Baggers   I think that you’re being very disrespectful of Neanderthals.  They were superbly adapted for life in Ice Age Europe and their society was rich with artistic, spiritual and communal endeavour.  Apart from African folk, all modern humans carry Neanderthal DNA but I suspect that Aurangzeb inherited less than most; Neanderthals had large hands :)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on February 20, 2021, 10:19:21 am
QOP; Queen of Pain or wordplay on GOP that’s far too subtle for me  :-\
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 20, 2021, 10:45:12 am
QOP; Queen of Pain or wordplay on GOP that’s far too subtle for me  :-\

I'm guessing it stands for "QAnon"OP.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 20, 2021, 10:59:22 am
Yep. Some call it the GOPQ but QOP is more emphatic and quicker to type!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 20, 2021, 11:20:13 am
@Baggers   I think that you’re being very disrespectful of Neanderthals.  They were superbly adapted for life in Ice Age Europe and their society was rich with artistic, spiritual and communal endeavour.  Apart from African folk, all modern humans carry Neanderthal DNA but I suspect that Aurangzeb inherited less than most; Neanderthals had large hands :)

 :))  :))  :))  David, thank you for picking me up on this scientific reality. Dreadful oversight on my part. I should have factored in the hands...  :-[   ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 20, 2021, 11:39:08 am
Much to early  to determine any medium to long term influences. We need to wait a good 12 months. Trumpania is still in its death throes and there will be the violent wiggle for a little while yet.
In the meantime we all need to be very quiet. America is very tired and needs a little sleep.  ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 20, 2021, 03:18:36 pm
Much to early  to determine any medium to long term influences. We need to wait a good 12 months. Trumpania is still in its death throes and there will be the violent wiggle for a little while yet.
In the meantime we all need to be very quiet. America is very tired and needs a little sleep.  ;)

Yep, and maybe keep a casual eye not so much on the Republicans but news on the Orange One's lawsuits throughout 2021.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 20, 2021, 07:58:47 pm
Well, Trump did promise that Americans would become tired of all the winning. And tired they are.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 22, 2021, 07:46:47 am
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/feb/21/republican-donors-aim-move-party-away-trump-influence
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 22, 2021, 07:57:24 am
Well, Trump did promise that Americans would become tired of all the winning. And tired they are.

I wonder if the Orange One and Charlie Sheen have ever discussed a speaking tour where they both talk on winning (and tiger blood)?  ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 22, 2021, 09:46:00 am
They’d be sympatico when it comes to their attitudes to women, that’s for sure. They’d get on like a house on fire until they realised there’s only room enough for 1 narcissistic personality on any stage. But don’t go posting that kind of stuff on the internet or Charlie Sheen will catch wind of it and start a Presidential run. Already the Rock is testing out the waters. At least if Charlie makes it to the top we’ll get to see strippers out the front of White House briefings, I guess.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 22, 2021, 09:50:20 am
At least if Charlie makes it to the top we’ll get to see strippers out the front of White House briefings, ............
Rumours are over-use of drugs have left him unable to strike up an interest even if he hired an army of them.

Trump might at least be able to act, but the rumours around him are that the girls might not even notice, it seems they struggle to find the key under the mat!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 22, 2021, 09:55:16 am
Given FoxNews, Rush Limbaugh and the rest of the right-wing propaganda machine was critical to Trump’s rise, enabling him to use it as a firehose of disinformation and lies, it’s worth questioning whether SkyNews can corrupt Australia’s political process:
Is Sky News shifting Australian politics to the right? Not yet, but there is cause for alarm (https://theconversation.com/is-sky-news-shifting-australian-politics-to-the-right-not-yet-but-there-is-cause-for-alarm-155356), the Conversation.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 22, 2021, 10:00:54 am
Given FoxNews, Rush Limbaugh and the rest of the right-wing propaganda machine was critical to Trump’s rise, enabling to use it as a firehose of disinformation and lies, it’s worth questioning whether SkyNews can corrupt Australia’s political process:
Is Sky News shifting Australian politics to the right? Not yet, but there is cause for alarm (https://theconversation.com/is-sky-news-shifting-australian-politics-to-the-right-not-yet-but-there-is-cause-for-alarm-155356), the Conversation.
Unlike the USA where pay TV and cable is saturated, hardly anybody who isn't somehow heavily invested in it watches Sky News in Australia!

Political types do, but it's a closed loop feedback system, which is perhaps why they seem so heavily disconnected from the public leaving them at a loss to understand the average person!

Also The Conversation article lacks context when discussing the Youtube numbers, there is no clarification on where those viewers were from, just counts of the number of times a story was viewed and even so the numbers are piddling. But it still probably qualifies as a canary.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 27, 2021, 06:45:51 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/forever-war-democrats-blast-biden-over-deadly-syria-air-strikes-20210227-p576c1.html

Nice. Now that the loony interlude is over, it's back to business as usual. Despite his advanced years, it's comforting to know that Joe hasn't forgotten the official Pentagon definition of peace time : " a state of permanent pre hostility."
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on February 28, 2021, 09:49:05 am
Less than 2 months in the hot seat and during a global pandemic off to war?

Disgraceful.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on February 28, 2021, 09:57:00 am
Less than 2 months in the hot seat and during a global pandemic off to war?

Disgraceful.
Nothing like a good war to get the economy moving...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on February 28, 2021, 10:02:37 am
Can we name a US President in modern history who has not launched military action/hostilities against another nation or extremist ideological/political faction or movement? It's in the US DNA.

In fact, to take this a tad further, the US has been and still is at war with itself. It is a nation, ever since the civil war of the 1860's, been, often, bitterly divided against itself. Democrat vs Republican is a cliche.

In fact, if you take it another tad further, it's hard to find a national on our blue/green ball in the sky that doesn't have bitter divisions within it.

In fact, if you take it another tad further, it's hard to find states within a nation, if politically different, that don't exhibit bitter and confrontation actions and attitudes toward each other.

In fact, if you take it another tad further, there are suburban class distinctions which show disharmony, sometimes aggression and sometimes snobbery and elitism.

In fact, if you take it another tad further, there are so many conflicts between people based on sexual orientation, social issues and political viewpoints.

In fact, if you take it another tad further, there are so many conflicts, even violence, within and between families.

If fact, if you take it another tad further, there are so few people at peace within themselves and often intolerance or irritated or opposed to the differences in others, no matter the nature of that difference.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 28, 2021, 10:04:22 am
Nothing like a good war to get the economy moving...
Trump did it without even moving offshore! ;D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on February 28, 2021, 11:16:26 am
Less than 2 months in the hot seat and during a global pandemic off to war?

Disgraceful.

He was obviously concerned they weren't pulling their weight with global emissions.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on May 21, 2021, 12:03:47 am
A significant vote in the House of Representatives:

Quote
Modeled after the investigation into the September 11, 2001, attacks, the legislation would establish an independent, 10-member commission that would make recommendations by the end of the year for securing the Capitol and preventing another insurrection.

It passed the House 252-175.

The solid number of Republicans voting for the independent investigation — 35 out of 211 — signaled some cracks in the party's defense of Mr Aurangzeb on a key vote.

It seems that Aurangzeb's hold over the Republicans is weakening despite the efforts of the Republican leadership.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on May 21, 2021, 05:49:08 am
And no doubt the Jan 6 Commission will be just a big a farce as the 9-11 Commission....
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 21, 2021, 07:49:49 am
A significant vote in the House of Representatives:

It seems that Aurangzeb's hold over the Republicans is weakening despite the efforts of the Republican leadership.
If they think his wealth is heading south so will his support, if he has no money to burn he has no skin in the game!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 25, 2021, 07:15:14 pm
Much to early  to determine any medium to long term influences. We need to wait a good 12 months. Trumpania is still in its death throes and there will be the violent wiggle for a little while yet.
In the meantime we all need to be very quiet. America is very tired and needs a little sleep.  ;)
I don’t think we need to wait 12 months to say that the GOP is going all the way with DJT.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on July 04, 2021, 08:29:14 am
What a predictable piece of shizen this person is;

A few litigations and charges start to pile up, and it's "I'm running for Prez again, so those who slight me better be careful!"
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: flyboy77 on July 04, 2021, 09:48:30 am
What a predictable piece of shizen this person is;

A few litigations and charges start to pile up, and it's "I'm running for Prez again, so those who slight me better be careful!"

Ant yet no focus on the Biden Crime Family?

Why are you still worried about Trump?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on July 04, 2021, 10:14:17 am
Wouldn’t it mark a new low for the Republicans nominate Trump to run for President while he’s incarcerated? ;D 
Unbelievably, there’s nothing preventing this.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: capcom on July 04, 2021, 11:17:30 am
Ant yet no focus on the Biden Crime Family?

Very very true.  Then look really hard at Pelosi.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on July 04, 2021, 11:43:26 am
I just hate the way Biden has made his son and daughter-in-Law senior advisers and he refuses to put the Biden Organisation into a blind trust.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on August 18, 2022, 11:54:11 am
Much to early  to determine any medium to long term influences. We need to wait a good 12 months. Trumpania is still in its death throes and there will be the violent wiggle for a little while yet.
In the meantime we all need to be very quiet. America is very tired and needs a little sleep.  ;)
More than a year has passed and it’s fair to say Trumpmania isn’t in its death throes. And even if Trump goes away (to the big house?) Trumpism will continue with right-wing demagogues such as Ron DeSantis.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on August 18, 2022, 12:33:43 pm
More than a year has passed and it’s fair to say Trumpmania isn’t in its death throes. And even if Trump goes away (to the big house?) Trumpism will continue with right-wing demagogues such as Ron DeSantis.

He's still hanging around that's for sure and certain.
But to believe he's a realistic chance of regaining his position is a wild stretch.
There's enough division in Republican ranks to ensure that won't happen.

What hasn't happened, and what I expected, was that the alternative would be good enough to consign him to the dustbin of history...and that's on the Democrats.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: kruddler on August 18, 2022, 12:36:20 pm
He's still hanging around that's for sure and certain.
But to believe he's a realistic chance of regaining his position is a wild stretch.
There's enough division in Republican ranks to ensure that won't happen.

What hasn't happened, and what I expected, was that the alternative would be good enough to consign him to the dustbin of history...and that's on the Democrats.


As wild as him getting it in the first place?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on August 18, 2022, 12:48:18 pm
As wild as him getting it in the first place?

Much, much wilder....because the more moderate American right-leaning voter have seen what he can be.
He was 'different'...now they know the consequences of that difference.
The level of support for Trump is very dependent on the performance of Biden.
Biden seems to be picking up in that area in recent weeks.

Anyway Trump's going to be tied up in legal issues for some time to come.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on August 18, 2022, 01:19:33 pm
The Simpsons have already predicted it.  Ivanka Trump 2028. 
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on August 18, 2022, 02:09:37 pm
The error in your logic, Lods, is that you assume the US is a democracy. At best, it’s a very distorted one. Gerrymandering and voter suppression is well established over there and the conservative majority in the Supreme Court appears ready to walk away from defending equal voting rights.

The attempted coup on 6/1/21 might also be a dry run for what’s to come. Just wait for Red States to pass legislation allowing the Governors, Secretaries of State or State Legislatures to forward their own slates of electors to the Electoral College if they have the slightest concern about the conduct of elections in their States.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 18, 2022, 02:27:46 pm
Much, much wilder....because the more moderate American right-leaning voter have seen what he can be.
He was 'different'...now they know the consequences of that difference.
The level of support for Trump is very dependent on the performance of Biden.
Biden seems to be picking up in that area in recent weeks.

Anyway Trump's going to be tied up in legal issues for some time to come.


Any weakness towards China or hardship due to interest rises in the USA will lead to calls for Trump to be the savior again IMO.
Trump is a false prophet but his type garner support when the country is at its lowest ebb, China think Biden doesnt have the gonads to take them on and I'm interested to see how the Taiwan situation unfolds given the tough recent talk from China's propaganda team that they are intent on military action to get what they want.
Any weak response from Biden and team will have Trump or similar back in the frame imo...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on August 18, 2022, 03:33:40 pm
The error in your logic, Lods, is that you assume the US is a democracy. At best, it’s a very distorted one. Gerrymandering and voter suppression is well established over there and the conservative majority in the Supreme Court appears ready to walk away from defending equal voting rights.

The attempted coup on 6/1/21 might also be a dry run for what’s to come. Just wait for Red States to pass legislation allowing the Governors, Secretaries of State or State Legislatures to forward their own slates of electors to the Electoral College if they have the slightest concern about the conduct of elections in their States.

At the end of the day politics is all about alternatives.
If Biden's approval rating was up in the 60-70% range we woudn't be talking about Trump.

Where there may be an issue is that the USA is a bit like Europe in terms of the variance in thinking of individual states.
However there's often a fairly even split between Republican and Democrat, so the idea one party can dominate in such a threatening, overruling manner..even with a stacked court, is probably not going to happen.

If it was as bad as all that, Trump would still be President.

But it may be you turn out to be right.
We'll watch this space...and if Trump is President elect in 2024 I'll buy you a dinner...and a drink...we'll both need one. ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on August 18, 2022, 04:29:23 pm
If it was as bad as all that, Trump would still be President.
That almost happened. If Pence had gone along with the idea of accepting the fake slates of electors or at least using them to justify a refusal to certify the results of the election in the “disputed” States, the House of Representatives would have voted in Trump as each of the 50 States would have had 1 vote and the Republicans controlled the votes in 26 States. And just imagine if Pence had been killed by Trump’s followers. What would that have done to the certification process? Trump’s coup was a serious effort but poorly executed. They’ve had 4 years to prepare for the next effort. To that end, Trump loyalists are running to replace State officials in charge of elections such as Secretaries of State and lesser election officials.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on November 11, 2022, 04:30:58 pm
It's hard to understand motive, especially when you do not have access or ability to examine or measure the resources, but superficially it appears that Murdoch Media has turned on Trump, and maybe it's a sign Trump's become a dead duck.

News Ltd will have Readership and Viewer poll results, most of it will be kept private, but what is not private are the headlines and by-lines appearing on various News Ltd product. In other words they may write one thing but act in some other way. So it could be a call to arms, or it could be a tell as well, it's 50/50.

Should we be surprised, I suppose Trump boosters will claim he is playing rope-a-dope, while others will just assume he is a dope!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 02, 2022, 02:27:32 pm
It’s like déjà vu all over again. After the insurrection, it looked like the GOP would dump Trump. Why would you continue to back a loser? Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy, the GOP leaders in both houses of Congress, condemned Trump and even Senator Lindsay Graham, one of Trump’s lackeys, declared he was done with him. But over time, they all backflipped. Within a week, McCarthy went down to Maralago to kiss the ring and the MAGA crew started to hunt down those who wouldn’t pledge their allegiance to him.

After the midterms, it looked like the GOP would turn against Trump. De Santis did well in Florida and it looked like he might be able to challenge Trump. And there was a lot of anger towards Trump because he saddled the GOP with weak candidates and did little to help them financially or by campaigning with them. The hoped-for red wave became a red ripple and the Dems unexpectedly retained control of the Senate. But now the GOP is going back to its usual submission to Trump, aided by the MAGA fans in Congress and GOP officials.

Unless prosecutors bring him undone, there’s every chance Trump will again be the GOP candidate. Perhaps De Santis might beat him, but there’s every chance Trump will humiliate him out of contention, aided by his MAGA supporters who are able to put their fingers on the scales when settling the rules for the primaries in each state and the debates. And De Santis is really just a less charismatic version of Trump anyway, so if he wins the nomination there’d be little cause for relief.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 02, 2022, 02:36:11 pm
Evil is what evil does!

That bloke has no interest in anybody but himself, and the stupidity of the US public is staggering, how they ignore his actions and believe his spin is beyond me. It's like they are addicted to hearing they are loved while they are being kicked in the nuts!

I mean FFS. He built a wall to keep out the Mexican's to preserve American jobs, and to keep out the criminals who are always "someone else over there", but his US hotels are almost exclusively staffed by Mexicans, and most of the hard edge crooks wear suits and live in Manhattan!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on December 02, 2022, 02:58:05 pm
De Santis will beat him.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on December 02, 2022, 03:01:24 pm
De Santis will beat him.

Let's hope you are on the money with your prediction again.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on December 02, 2022, 03:04:56 pm
I think this one isnt as clear cut as people think.  The last US election wasnt a landslide, and many could consider that Trumps leadership may have led to better policy during the last couple of years.

Irrespective of what the truth is, and what happens next, it will be an intriguing watch.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 02, 2022, 03:49:32 pm
Remember that Trump may be able to effectively gerrymander the primaries. If he has States he expects to win, he can get his minions to change the rules so they’re winner-take-all States while trying to turn pro-DeSantis States into proportional primaries. He can win even if he loses the popular vote or loses more primaries than he wins.  Being in control of the GOP nationally and at State-level can help him out. And it wouldn’t shock if DeSantis went to the Republican Convention with more delegates than Trump but Trump staged a convention fight amid claims of rigged elections and threats to run as an Independent if DeSantis were to be nominated.

He can also use his lackeys at the GOP to give him a boost during the debates. The chair of the RNC, Ronna McDaniel, is one of his supporters, for example. If Trump engineers a big field onstage (rather than the smaller fish having an undercard debate), neither DeSantis or he would have much time to answer questions about their policies but Trump might benefit by butting in at will and humiliating the other candidates, especially DeSantis. He could even end up with MAGA moderators who allow him to behave as he wants.

Don’t assume Trump will fight fair.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 02, 2022, 03:55:18 pm
Don’t assume Trump will fight fair.
He can't afford to fight fair, and I doubt anybody expects him to do so, because if he loses he might well go to the wall!

Trump's Presidency and his future Candidacy is all about buying time to avoid prosecution, you know it, they know it, everybody knows it!

His enemies aren't prepared to take the risk attacking him just in case he actually wins, because he will be unrestrained in his vengefulness.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on December 02, 2022, 04:24:41 pm
Yep. The more I think of it, the more I think Trump will threaten to wreck the place if Republican voters don’t renominate him. And he’ll do it as soon as any other candidate looks like being competitive. He won’t wait until the Convention to unleash the threat. He may even unleash it before the first primary is held. Voters will have to contemplate that voting for DeSantis might end up with the Democratic candidate winning in a walkover. It’s not as though they could be sure it would be an empty threat.

As with most things involving Trump, retaliating by making the same threat would probably backfire on DeSantis. Marco Rubio responded to Trump’s mockery by doing the same back to him. He quickly lost ground. Trying to out-Trump Trump doesn’t seem to work. As the old saying goes, never argue with stupid people as they’ll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on December 02, 2022, 06:31:00 pm
Like narcissists before him, the orange orangutan will destroy all around him before there's any chance of him stopping his rampage.
Only one strategy works against narcissists - accountability, relentless accountability. Use only cold hard facts. Never try to combat them at their own game... they love it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on December 02, 2022, 11:12:11 pm
Like narcissists before him, the orange orangutan will destroy all around him before there's any chance of him stopping his rampage.
Only one strategy works against narcissists - accountability, relentless accountability. Use only cold hard facts. Never try to combat them at their own game... they love it.

That's terribly disrespectful towards orangutans Shane ...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 03, 2022, 06:55:24 am
That's terribly disrespectful towards orangutans Shane ...
Agreed, I quite like orangutans, I got to meet one up close once on Borneo.

They left me with an impression of intelligence!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on December 03, 2022, 08:25:36 am
Agreed, I quite like orangutans, I got to meet one up close once on Borneo.

They left me with an impression of intelligence!

And they’re rarely, if ever, narcissistic! 🙂
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on December 03, 2022, 09:37:33 am
That's terribly disrespectful towards orangutans Shane ...

Very fair point. With apologies to orangutans, I will never use that description for Trump again. Yep, in hindsight that description actually flattered Trump. How about the orange narcissistic c0ckhead?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on December 03, 2022, 02:47:44 pm
Strange how I was warned by DJC for calling Dan Andrews a dickhead but you can call Trump whatever you like.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on December 03, 2022, 02:59:59 pm
Strange how I was warned by DJC for calling Dan Andrews a dickhead but you can call Trump whatever you like.



Context.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on December 03, 2022, 05:09:21 pm
Context.

Bias
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on December 03, 2022, 05:44:06 pm
i wouldn't call Trump stupid or dumb, not if the litmus test is his ability to influence public opinion and attract voters. On that level, he is a very canny operator. There are some very sobering comparisons being made between not only Hitler and Trump as individuals, but in the state of their respective countries as they both rose to prominence. Underestimate him at your peril IMO.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on December 03, 2022, 07:03:24 pm
Time will tell.

He's not dumb, he's not stupid...he is a canny operator, and you sell his influence short at your peril but....

He's like the boogeyman.
He's there to scare the kids.
...and he's the best thing the Democrats have going for them.
They keep talking about him to scare the voters.
It showed at the mid terms.

What should have been a red wave didn't occur because the 'Trump card' was played and put the wind up the voters.

He won't be President again.
It's likely he won't be the nominee.
...it's not unlikely he won't be a candidate and wreck and split the Republican vote.
Because that's what he does, he's a self centred wrecker.
But dumb, no way!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on December 03, 2022, 07:30:30 pm
Very fair point. With apologies to orangutans, I will never use that description for Trump again. Yep, in hindsight that description actually flattered Trump. How about the orange narcissistic c0ckhead?

I think that’s probably offensive to c0ckheads 🙄

Is c0ckhead more offensive than dickhead?  The 0 probably saves it but it’s close to the line 🙂
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on December 03, 2022, 07:39:32 pm
Strange how I was warned by DJC for calling Dan Andrews a dickhead but you can call Trump whatever you like.

In fact, I’ve only just seen Baggers’ post.

However, if you care to go back, I thought your transition from “Dictator” to “D1ckhead” was quite clever.  The warning was not to go any further.

Context is important; Dan is our d1ckhead, Aurangzeb is a threat to civilisation. That doesn’t give free rein to ignore our code of conduct though.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on December 04, 2022, 08:52:49 am
i wouldn't call Trump stupid or dumb, not if the litmus test is his ability to influence public opinion and attract voters. On that level, he is a very canny operator. There are some very sobering comparisons being made between not only Hitler and Trump as individuals, but in the state of their respective countries as they both rose to prominence. Underestimate him at your peril IMO.

Absolutely.

This bloke has managed, over decades, to avoid capture and conviction for all manner of crimes. As my mother would say, 'he's as cunning as a sh1thouse rat.' He is street smart and will not hesitate to use all manner of barely legal tactics to stay one step ahead of the legal and tax systems in the US. Plus he's a showman, and our US friends love being entertained. Plus he uses religion to recruit Christian Fundamentalists and other zealots quite effectively.

A powerful and influential cornered narcissist who undoubtedly has all manner of 'dirt' on plenty of colleagues and opponents, is not only immorally and unethically manipulative (without a scintilla of conscience) but resultantly very dangerous to friend and foe alike. And there's his uncanny ability to galvanize the LCD to do his bidding, violently if necessary... again, without conscience, accountability, remorse or using any 'directly' stating so, language - probably a strategy he learned from the mafia bosses and how they avoid accountability.

Though in Jack Smith (Special Counsel Prosecutor) Trump may have just met his match...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on December 04, 2022, 10:09:19 am
i wouldn't call Trump stupid or dumb, not if the litmus test is his ability to influence public opinion and attract voters. On that level, he is a very canny operator. There are some very sobering comparisons being made between not only Hitler and Trump as individuals, but in the state of their respective countries as they both rose to prominence. Underestimate him at your peril IMO.
Partly agree, but I would not confuse expert cunning and being manipulative with an outright measure of intelligence.

If he was that intelligent he wouldn't be blowing his family fortune, it looks like it was his late wife that pretty much run the show and saved him from bankruptcy more than once.

Intelligence can be street wise or naivé, some of the very smartest people I've come across are completely clueless socially and morally, and "they" are often very myopic. Now as I write this I recall my psychologist friend telling me my use of inclusive language is a give away, but I have to say to her in regards to Trump that argument doesn't apply because we are talking about a singular subject.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on December 04, 2022, 11:29:11 am
Partly agree, but I would not confuse expert cunning and being manipulative with an outright measure of intelligence.

If he was that intelligent he wouldn't be blowing his family fortune, it looks like it was his late wife that pretty much run the show and saved him from bankruptcy more than once.

Intelligence can be street wise or naivé, some of the very smartest people I've come across are completely clueless socially and morally, and "they" are often very myopic. Now as I write this I recall my psychologist friend telling me my use of inclusive language is a give away, but I have to say to her in regards to Trump that argument doesn't apply because we are talking about a singular subject.

Good points, Spotted One. There are quite a few varieties of 'intelligence'... but as Pauly pointed out, he is definitely not a fool or idiot. Though, in terms of emotional intelligence, he's stuck with the emotional maturity of a teenager.

Streets smarts, immorality (no moral compass or social rule book), narcissism, loot/connections and being somewhat of an artful seducer have helped him no end.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on December 21, 2022, 07:55:40 pm
The ABC breached its own code of practice after a two-part Four Corners program about Fox News was found to have “omitted relevant information in a way that materially misled the audience”.

According to the results of an investigation by the Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA) into the series “Fox and the Big Lie”, Four Corners reported that two Fox presenters appeared at a 2018 Donald Trump rally.

However, the broadcaster failed to include the fact that Fox had issued a public censure of the two presenters, which would have led viewers to potentially conclude that Fox either endorsed or did not object to their journalists appearing on stage with Trump.

“By omitting key information, the ABC did not give its audience the opportunity to make up their own minds about Fox News,” ACMA Chair Nerida O’Loughlin said.

“Both audiences and participants are entitled to the full picture. In this case, by omitting information the ABC did not do justice to the story or provide all relevant facts to its audience.”

ACMA also found that Four Corners violated the ABC code when it approached a Fox News host but did not adequately inform her about what the interview entailed.

“Current affairs programs such as Four Corners are not precluded from presenting a particular perspective on an issue or reaching a particular conclusion.

“But that needs to be balanced against requirements to gather and present information with due impartiality.

“The ACMA considers that ABC could have taken greater care in striking that balance in this program to avoid perceptions of partiality,” Ms O’Loughlin said.

This is not the first time that Four Corners has fallen foul of ACMA rules.

In 2019, it was found to have breached impartiality rules in an investigation into the Murray-Darling Basin Plan, when it “fell short” of requirements to “present and report on issues in an impartial manner”.
A spokesman for Fox said, “FOX News Media is pleased with the findings of the Australian Communications and Media Authority that the ABC engaged in multiple breaches of its own Code of Practice relating to accuracy and fair and honest dealing.

“Today’s ruling confirms FOX News Media’s view that the central premise of the Four Corners two-part program was built on a foundation of patent bias and lack of impartiality and was then laden with basic factual errors, uncorrected even after FOX News Media presented contradictory evidence.”

However, the ABC disputed ACMA’s findings, saying it was “deeply concerned” at the findings and accused ACMA of misinterpreting the ABC’s Code of Practice.

In a statement the broadcaster said: “The ABC has considered the findings and has serious concerns that the ACMA’s interpretation of the ABC’s Code of Practice will have negative consequences for the future production of strong public interest journalism.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on February 17, 2023, 05:02:31 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/16/business/media/fox-dominion-lawsuit.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on February 18, 2023, 11:33:25 am
Donald will never be subject to any form of indictment while he has a grip on a big part of the GOP.  They might offer up his cronies to satisfy the witch-hunters, but if Donald goes down in flames, the Conservative vote will be split and GOP will be destined for opposition for many years to come.

It seems to me that the Republicans are trying to work out how to free themselves of Trumpism without marginalising the huge pool of MAGA voters.

This is what happens when you dance with the Devil.... at some stage, the music will stop.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 22, 2023, 05:34:53 pm
The Foreperson of the Georgia Grand Jury was asked if the Grand Jury had recommended indictments against Trump. She said,
Quote
“You’re not going to be shocked. It’s not rocket science,” Emily Kohrs told the outlet Tuesday. “You won’t be too surprised.”

“I will tell you that if the judge releases the recommendations, it is not going to be some giant plot twist. You probably have a fair idea of what may be in there. I’m trying very hard to say that delicately.
She said the indictment list is not a short list.

Unusually for Trump, he put himself front and centre by making a threatening call to Raffensberger while telling him to find enough votes to make Georgia a win for him. Making the threats on tape was highly unusual for Trump who usually operates with the circumspection of a Mafia boss who knows the FBI might be eavesdropping. And his efforts to set the dogs on the State officials who were in charge of the election has only hardened their resolve.

Sadly for Trump, the charges will be laid under Georgia’s laws, so Trump won’t be able to pardon himself even if he becomes President again.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on February 22, 2023, 05:38:16 pm

Sadly for Trump, the charges will be laid under Georgia’s laws, so Trump won’t be able to pardon himself even if he becomes President again.
As much as this is a most-deserving outcome, I will believe it when I see it.  And even if he is indicted, it will drag on for years until Donald is no longer relevant in GOP circles.  
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on February 22, 2023, 05:50:35 pm
The funny thing is that Trump could run for President from a jail cell! An independent candidate did exactly that around 100 years ago. The argument is that the Constitution lays down only 3 requirements: he must be 35+, be a natural born American, & must have lived in the US for the last 14 years. There’s no requirement that he be free or without convictions. But Trump would set a new first by being the first candidate of one of the 2 major parties. Yay! Another first for Trump, maybe.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on February 24, 2023, 12:28:24 pm
Emily Kohrs is either incredibly stupid or a big Trump fan.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on February 24, 2023, 12:33:30 pm
Emily Kohrs is either incredibly stupid or a big Trump fan.

99% A
1% B
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on February 24, 2023, 12:46:43 pm
One bad practice match and these non-footy threads goe berserka!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on March 31, 2023, 10:00:36 am
Looks like we might be about to get a picture (front and side view) of Donald courtesy of a Grand Jury indictment ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on March 31, 2023, 10:09:32 am
https://chrishedges.substack.com/p/the-donald-trump-problem
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on March 31, 2023, 10:22:59 am
https://chrishedges.substack.com/p/the-donald-trump-problem

No wonder the country is farked!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: PaulP on March 31, 2023, 10:46:23 am
No wonder the country is farked!

Yep.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on March 31, 2023, 11:46:01 am
Trump tried to undercut Stormy Daniels’ claims using his usual defence that she wasn’t his type. He called her “Horse Face”, saying he would never have touched her.

Of course, his MAGA twitter trolls then had their instructions and one had a twitter exchange with Stormy Daniels:
Quote
Flamingo: President Trump wouldn’t touch you with a 10ft pole.
Stormy Daniels:  True. He used a 3 inch one.

Game, set and match Ms. Daniels  😂
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on April 01, 2023, 09:16:47 pm
US politicians are a joke, so I’m fully on board with efforts to treat them as such:https://www.huffpost.com/entry/texas-republican-fake-names-hearing_n_6426b387e4b0ba5d603964c4 (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/texas-republican-fake-names-hearing_n_6426b387e4b0ba5d603964c4)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 05, 2023, 03:08:18 pm
How will Trump fare if he’s found to have raped E Jean Carroll by the jury in the civil trial? Assuming Trump doesn’t change his mind about testifying, final addresses will be next.

The smart money would be on Trump losing. E Jean Carroll apparently gave compelling evidence that Trump had manoeuvred her into a cubicle at the Bergdorf Goodman store in New York, pinned her against the wall and raped her. Pretty much immediately afterwards, she complained of it to a couple of her friends but was hesitant to report it to police fearing Trump would make her life hell. Criminal proceedings were time barred but after the Me-Too movement the NY legislature allowed a once-only opportunity for sexual assault victims to sue in the civil courts and she took advantage.

E Jean Carroll is a somebody as she was a long-time agony aunt for Elle magazine and comes across as a chatty, funny lady. Trump’s lawyer apparently conducted the sort of scorched earth cross-examination that could well have alienated the jury. Unfortunately for Trump, his lawyer seems to have spent part of his time attacking her over something that may well be Trump’s motive for raping her. The lawyer tried to exploit her account that she had tried to parry Trump’s dominant behaviour via humour. She said he wanted her to try a slip but she joked with him that it would look better on him and invited him to try it on while draping it over his shoulder. If there’s anything we’ve learnt about Trump’s malignant narcissism, we now know that was unfortunately destined to lead to him becoming enraged and taking revenge.

Trump refused to testify or even be present during the trial but parts of his video deposition were played. He resorted to his usual defence when accused of sexually assaulting women. He claimed E Jean Carroll wasn’t his type. In other words, she was too ugly to rape. In addition, he denied he’d ever met her. He was shown a picture taken at a charity event of Trump talking to a woman. Trump identified the woman as his former wife Marla Maples and he agreed she was definitely his type. Unfortunately for Trump, the woman in the picture was E Jean Carroll who was a looker back in the day.

The knife was twisted by the Plaintiff’s lawyer who played the famous “grab them by the pussy” tape and called a couple of women who had been molested by Trump. One woman had had the misfortune of being seated next to him on a plane and Trump, without making any attempt to talk to her, tried to explore her nether regions and kiss her.

It seems the only thing that could save Trump would be a majority of the jury being MAGA fanatics and the odds of that aren’t great in NY.

So, what happens if he loses? Sure, he’ll appeal and claim he’s the victim of a hoax. But surely he’d be dead politically.  Imagine political ads calling him a proven rapist. He needs more than his MAGA fans in a general election. Kiss goodbye to the votes of suburban women or values-voting independents. He might become a hero for incels and those who love Jordan Pietersen and the Tate brothers, but I suspect he already had their support along with the racists anyway. Growing his vote would be a harder task.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Macca37 on May 05, 2023, 03:59:43 pm
How will Trump fare if he’s found to have raped E Jean Carroll by the jury in the civil trial? Assuming Trump doesn’t change his mind about testifying, final addresses will be next.

The smart money would be on Trump losing. E Jean Carroll apparently gave compelling evidence that Trump had manoeuvred her into a cubicle at the Bergdorf Goodman store in New York, pinned her against the wall and raped her. Pretty much immediately afterwards, she complained of it to a couple of her friends but was hesitant to report it to police fearing Trump would make her life hell. Criminal proceedings were time barred but after the Me-Too movement the NY legislature allowed a once-only opportunity for sexual assault victims to sue in the civil courts and she took advantage.

E Jean Carroll is a somebody as she was a long-time agony aunt for Elle magazine and comes across as a chatty, funny lady. Trump’s lawyer apparently conducted the sort of scorched earth cross-examination that could well have alienated the jury. Unfortunately for Trump, his lawyer seems to have spent part of his time attacking her over something that may well be Trump’s motive for raping her. The lawyer tried to exploit her account that she had tried to parry Trump’s dominant behaviour via humour. She said he wanted her to try a slip but she joked with him that it would look better on him and invited him to try it on while draping it over his shoulder. If there’s anything we’ve learnt about Trump’s malignant narcissism, we now know that was unfortunately destined to lead to him becoming enraged and taking revenge.

Trump refused to testify or even be present during the trial but parts of his video deposition were played. He resorted to his usual defence when accused of sexually assaulting women. He claimed E Jean Carroll wasn’t his type. In other words, she was too ugly to rape. In addition, he denied he’d ever met her. He was shown a picture taken at a charity event of Trump talking to a woman. Trump identified the woman as his former wife Marla Maples and he agreed she was definitely his type. Unfortunately for Trump, the woman in the picture was E Jean Carroll who was a looker back in the day.

The knife was twisted by the Plaintiff’s lawyer who played the famous “grab them by the pussy” tape and called a couple of women who had been molested by Trump. One woman had had the misfortune of being seated next to him on a plane and Trump, without making any attempt to talk to her, tried to explore her nether regions and kiss her.

It seems the only thing that could save Trump would be a majority of the jury being MAGA fanatics and the odds of that aren’t great in NY.

So, what happens if he loses? Sure, he’ll appeal and claim he’s the victim of a hoax. But surely he’d be dead politically.  Imagine political ads calling him a proven rapist. He needs more than his MAGA fans in a general election. Kiss goodbye to the votes of suburban women or values-voting independents. He might become a hero for incels and those who love Jordan Pietersen and the Tate brothers, but I suspect he already had their support along with the racists anyway. Growing his vote would be a harder task.

I think he will survive politically.  He is Teflon Man to his rabid MAGA fans and a conviction in this case or in any of the  cases likely to be brought agains him this year will only entrench the view that he is being persecuted for his attempts to "drain the swamp'.

I believe his hardcore followers number approximately 30 million - not enough to win an election but enough to frighten members of the GOP from standing against him for the party nomination.

I expect him to be nominated as the GOP candidate for the next election and to be defeated decisively once again.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 05, 2023, 05:07:14 pm
How will Trump fare if he’s found to have raped E Jean Carroll by the jury in the civil trial?
It's fake news to his fans base, they think it is a conspiracy and the news is generated by 5G AI!

I suspect things are going to get worse before they get better.

Trump is clinging to his election hopes as a stalling / get out of jail tactic, he has no interest in the Presidency other than lining his own pocket with either cash or immunity from prosecution.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 10, 2023, 07:58:28 am
The jury found Trump guilty of sexual battery and defamation and awarded US$5m to E Jean Carroll. But it didn’t find that he raped her. Pity. There isn’t really a way of boiling down sexual battery into a nickname as biting as Trump the Rapist.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 10, 2023, 01:46:11 pm
The jury found Trump guilty of sexual battery and defamation and awarded US$5m to E Jean Carroll. But it didn’t find that he raped her. Pity. There isn’t really a way of boiling down sexual battery into a nickname as biting as Trump the Rapist.
I heard someone refer to him the other day as "The Sasquatch", I thought it fit quite nicely.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 10, 2023, 02:22:54 pm
It would be funny to hear his GOP opponents in Primary debates call him the Predator. More chance though that Biden would respond to Trump’s predictable attempts to recycle the Crooked Hilary thing during debates. Can you imagine how Trump would lose it!

The word Predator would also have resonance in MAGA world. Back in the 90s, the GOP was happily bandying around the idea that blacks were Superpredators with superhuman strength who had to be tamed with harsh laws (and unfortunately Biden didn’t stand in their way in order to help Clinton politically). MAGA wingnuts are now trying to brand teachers and librarians who refuse to join in the Pogrom against transsexuals as predators (as well as the more mundane claims they’re groomers and paedophiles).

It’s amazing that a party that has so many perverts in it sees sex offenders everywhere but are happy to ignore their own perversions. Jim Jordan (now the chair of the House Judiciary Committee) was an assistant wrestling coach at a university while the team doctor was busy groping team members. Even though 6 wrestlers say they complained to Jordan, he has stuck with the Sgt Shultz defence. Gaetz was lucky to avoid charges of transporting a 17 year old across State lines for the purposes of prostitution (but his close political friend was jailed over it).

Milo Yiannopoulos was a top far right commentator on social media. He fed his followers red meat and they loved it, despite the fact he’s gay. Perhaps being gay was a plus as they like to have members of a minority who are prepared to attack their own: think Diamond & Silk and Ye. But Milo was always a crapstirrer rather than being happy to carve out a niche as “they’re gay”. And his popularity plummeted when he argued that it could well be a good thing for a male teacher to have a loving sexual relationship with his 14 year old student. I can’t get out of my head the Monty Python song “I’m a Lumberjack” where the chorus is fully with Michael Palin until he goes fully into cross dressing and then they finally erupt!

Oddly enough, though, Milo is still an influential far right commentator which seems odd when he has espoused actual paedophilia. It seems real paedophilia is less of a problem than fake paedophilia that’s used as a political weapon.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 10, 2023, 03:05:33 pm
I think if Biden is smart he'll just shake his head and describe events as a sad low for US Politics.

There is nothing he can do or say that will sway Trump's apparatchiks, all Biden can do is try his best to influence the undecided.

I'm not sure it makes sense to bait Trump, the media are going to do that now, all you need is to force him to the front of the cameras over some issue or another and they'll surely do the job for you! The settlement will only raise more questions than it has silenced.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 10, 2023, 03:11:42 pm
Oddly enough, though, Milo is still an influential far right commentator which seems odd when he has espoused actual paedophilia. It seems real paedophilia is less of a problem than fake paedophilia that’s used as a political weapon.
It's not that odd though, because it has nothing to do with what is real, it's about what some people want to believe, like the birthplace conspiracy.

An associate of mine describes it as the what-if scenario, the fake circumstances that have spread across the media growing out of reality television into mainstream, they aren't founded in reality, they are gossip built on innuendo and rumours, they need no basis in truth to propagate.

Science has now shown once you hear these weird claims, even if you consciously and overtly proclaim how fake they are, you can't helped but have your future line of thought influenced by them. They actually weaken your train of thought making you more likely to accept some future bizarre assertion, or at least force you to hesitate before you discount an absurdity.

There is even some science floating around that suggests if you respond negatively to a carefully crafted supposition, the chance of you accepting the next claim increases regardless of how bizarre that claim might be. It's like you are a victim of your own brains logical relativity, the merchant of it's own doubt!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 11, 2023, 10:32:30 am
Interesting. Juror 77 who joined in the unanimous jury verdict (under NY law, verdicts must be unanimous), was a bit of a MAGA fan. He survived an application to dismiss him for inferred bias as he had listened on a few occasions over the preceding 6 months to a podcast by Tim Pool, a far-right, pro-Trump commentator aligned with Steve Bannon. Strangely enough, Trump’s lawyer was forced to argue that a political affiliation didn’t mean bias, although Trump has smeared anyone who might vote for Democrats as clearly biased against him. The trial judge denied the application.

I had assumed E Jean Carroll had been lucky to score a jury full of Democrats, which wasn’t far fetched because NY is a very Blue State. But there was a Trump-friendly juror who could have vetoed any verdict against Trump. Maybe he did a deal to go along with the verdict if the rape allegation wasn’t proven. Trump is already trying to paint it as a verdict by a jury of biased Democrats under the direction of a biased Democratic judge who manipulated the trial to ensure a verdict against him. Yet the jury had a far-right-leaning juror and the judge allowed him to stay on the jury.

In a haunting reminder of how Trump has attacked democratic institutions using stochastic terrorism (making calls for action against his enemies in the hope that some will use violence against them), the trial judge advised the jury to remain anonymous as they had during the trial by his order. He suggested that the 15 minutes of fame they might receive by appearing in the media was not worth the consequences that might flow. And he told the jurors that any juror who took that risk should not identify any other juror and put them in harms way. My God, this a former POTUS and the judge, rightly, gave the jury advice he would have given in the case of the criminal trial of a Mafia Don.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 11, 2023, 11:55:11 am
My God, this a former POTUS and the judge, rightly, gave the jury advice he would have given in the case of the criminal trial of a Mafia Don.
So who is worse, Trump or Putin?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 11, 2023, 12:24:42 pm
Trump wants to be Putin. He wants to destroy democratic institutions so he can be as autocratic as Putin. But if he manages it, he’ll be far more powerful than Putin given Russia’s weakened state.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on May 11, 2023, 04:17:06 pm
So who is worse, Trump or Putin?

Like asking if you'd rather be belted in the plums by a cricket or baseball bat.

Or... being asked whether you'd prefer to drink a litre of arsenic or strychnine.

Either way, same result.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on May 11, 2023, 05:26:46 pm
So who is worse, Trump or Putin?

Hard call!

I think that Putin is smarter than Aurangzeb so I'll go with the latter; an intellectually challenged, narcissistic sociopath is probably more dangerous than your run of the mill narcissistic sociopath.  Context is an issue too; the US system and half the populace wouldn't stand for the usurpation of power, Putin is already there.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 11, 2023, 06:28:15 pm
Like asking if you'd rather be belted in the plums by a cricket or baseball bat.

Or... being asked whether you'd prefer to drink a litre of arsenic or strychnine.

Either way, same result.
I might be naive here but Putin is a screwen animal that should captured and tortured for as many days as the war in Ukraine has lasted and then cut up into little pieces on the steps of the Kremlin on live TV. Trump is fwit but an animal who mows down cities, women and children he is not. Perspective kids.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on May 11, 2023, 07:14:47 pm
I might be naive here but Putin is a screwen animal that should captured and tortured for as many days as the war in Ukraine has lasted and then cut up into little pieces on the steps of the Kremlin on live TV. Trump is fwit but an animal who mows down cities, women and children he is not. Perspective kids.

Fair points G2C.

My argument is that Putin knows what he’s doing, reprehensible as that may be.  Aurangzeb doesn’t know what he’s doing and is potentially more dangerous but, as I said previously, the USA system and people should be able to neutralise Aurangzeb.  Putin already has complete control of Russia, as far that is possible.

So, Putin is worse, as things stand, but Aurangzeb has the potential to outstrip Putin simply because he could gain control of a superpower and would do anything that could further his own interests.

As an aside, Tennessee has banned drag acts and random male musicians are performing in dresses in protest.  It’s a strange place even if you ignore the gun violence.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 11, 2023, 07:28:49 pm
Fair points G2C.

My argument is that Putin knows what he’s doing, reprehensible as that may be.  Aurangzeb doesn’t know what he’s doing and is potentially more dangerous but, as I said previously, the USA system and people should be able to neutralise Aurangzeb.  Putin already has complete control of Russia, as far that is possible.

So, Putin is worse, as things stand, but Aurangzeb has the potential to outstrip Putin simply because he could gain control of a superpower and would do anything that could further his own interests.

As an aside, Tennessee has banned drag acts and random male musicians are performing in dresses in protest.  It’s a strange place even if you ignore the gun violence.
Even at his dumbest worst, Trump couldn't commit the atrocities that beast has even if he tried. What makes me sick to the core is that the world has to essentially stand by and watch the maggot do it.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 12, 2023, 08:29:00 am
Even at his dumbest worst, Trump couldn't commit the atrocities that beast has even if he tried. What makes me sick to the core is that the world has to essentially stand by and watch the maggot do it.
So you are confident that if Trump thought he could get away with becoming the US version of a War Mongering Oligarch he wouldn't do it, .................. interesting! :o
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 12, 2023, 08:40:50 am
So you are confident that if Trump thought he could get away with becoming the US version of a War Mongering Oligarch he wouldn't do it, .................. interesting! :o
Yes that's what I think, Putin is the lowest form of life on the planet by a long way and some of you a drawing a very long bow having him on par with Trump. That animal stands alone on the podium of Kents. As much as I can't stand that moron, fair suck of the sauce bottle re Trump kids.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 12, 2023, 08:52:21 am
Trump is all about Trump.
He lives for the now.
He'd hate to be subject to the restrictions and sanctions that have affected Putin and Russia.
Most of his talk has been insular and his ambitions beyond the borders of the USA are limited.
He wants to change America, not necessarily the world...but his main aim is personal wealth and glory.

Putin for all his faults is more about history and his legacy and place in history.
He lives for the future.
He'd want his name and achievements to be remembered long after he's gone.
He dreams of a Russian infuence far beyond its own borders.
One that rivals the glory days of the old Soviet Union.

It's no contest.
In terms of the possible effect on the future, Putin poses much more potential for a change in the world order and alliances, one that could have a catastrophic consequence.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 12, 2023, 09:51:55 am
The depths to which Trump would sink are only limited by external constraints. If he were able to eliminate all constraints, I shudder to think how far he’d go. After all, he’s a malignant narcissist and sociopath. He suggested to his Defence Secretary that they should launch missiles into Mexico to target drug cartels but fortunately Esper was able to talk him out of that. By the way, Mexico is not an enemy of the USA but would have become one if Trump had had his way and who knows where that would have led. This is also the stable genius who suggested that hurricanes should be targeted with nuclear bombs to blow them up. And his use of Federal agents to target BLM protesters and others shouldn’t be forgotten. Nor should his unleashing of a mob to storm the Capitol building and potentially assassinate his Vice President. Anyone who stands in his way is fair game and any amount of death or destruction he is able to inflict would not weigh on his conscience in the slightest as he has none.

The consequences of an unfettered Trump taking control of the USA are far worse than the dangers of Putin’s autocracy (unless, of course, Putin starts a nuclear war which remains unlikely) as Putin is currently boxed in. Trump’s 45th presidency pushed the far right towards power in South America and Europe and that would accelerate if he were to seize control of the USA. How would he deal with China? Would he team up with China (as Hitler did with Russia) before starting a war with China (as Hitler did with Russia)? Perhaps he’d be able to do none of this as he’s old and may not live long enough to achieve it. And maybe some of the guardrails of democracy would hold him up. But where would Trump end up if things fall well for him?

In the short term, it’s likely he’d hand Ukraine to Putin on a platter. You’re right that Putin is a war criminal and evil incarnate, but wouldn’t it be just as evil to reward his murderous attacks on civilians with victory and allow Putin to re-emerge as a global leader rather than the pariah he currently is? Putin is currently held in check by NATO, but Trump can hobble it by withdrawing from it. And seeing Putin palling around with Trump as Trump did with Kim Jong Un would cut off Putin’s enemies inside and outside Russia at the knees.

He’s already rehabilitated one murderous regime. After the murder and dismemberment of the journalist Kashoggi in the Saudi Arabian Consulate in Turkey on the orders of Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman, Saudi Arabia looked as if it would be a pariah state but Trump did everything he could to rehabilitate the murderer. And it worked. They even have a golf tour now. And a big surprise was that Saudi Arabia gave Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner billions to invest for them.

Yes, Putin is scum and the world would be better if someone takes him out. But the same can be said of Bashir al-Assad and the many dictators around the world who happily murder portions of their population or wage wars (including President Xi who seems intent on wiping out the Uyghurs and other groups). How evil they are isn’t necessarily determined by the body count as that’s often proportional to opportunity and circumstance.

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on May 12, 2023, 10:06:51 am
The depths to which Trump would sink are only limited by external constraints. If he were able to eliminate all constraints, I shudder to think how far he’d go. After all, he’s a malignant narcissist and sociopath. He suggested to his Defence Secretary that they should launch missiles into Mexico to target drug cartels but fortunately Esper was able to talk him out of that. By the way, Mexico is not an enemy of the USA but would have become one if Trump had had his way and who knows where that would have led. This is also the stable genius who suggested that hurricanes should be targeted with nuclear bombs to blow them up. And his use of Federal agents to target BLM protesters and others shouldn’t be forgotten. Nor should his unleashing of a mob to storm the Capitol building and potentially assassinate his Vice President. Anyone who stands in his way is fair game and any amount of death or destruction he is able to inflict would not weigh on his conscience in the slightest as he has none.

The consequences of an unfettered Trump taking control of the USA are far worse than the dangers of Putin’s autocracy (unless, of course, Putin starts a nuclear war which remains unlikely) as Putin is currently boxed in. Trump’s 45th presidency pushed the far right towards power in South America and Europe and that would accelerate if he were to seize control of the USA. How would he deal with China? Would he team up with China (as Hitler did with Russia) before starting a war with China (as Hitler did with Russia)? Perhaps he’d be able to do none of this as he’s old and may not live long enough to achieve it. And maybe some of the guardrails of democracy would hold him up. But where would Trump end up if things fall well for him?

In the short term, it’s likely he’d hand Ukraine to Putin on a platter. You’re right that Putin is a war criminal and evil incarnate, but wouldn’t it be just as evil to reward his murderous attacks on civilians with victory and allow Putin to re-emerge as a global leader rather than the pariah he currently is? Putin is currently held in check by NATO, but Trump can hobble it by withdrawing from it. And seeing Putin palling around with Trump as Trump did with Kim Jong Un would cut off Putin’s enemies inside and outside Russia at the knees.

He’s already rehabilitated one murderous regime. After the murder and dismemberment of the journalist Kashoggi in the Saudi Arabian Consulate in Turkey on the orders of Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman, Saudi Arabia looked as if it would be a pariah state but Trump did everything he could to rehabilitate the murderer. And it worked. They even have a golf tour now. And a big surprise was that Saudi Arabia gave Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner billions to invest for them.

Yes, Putin is scum and the world would be better if someone takes him out. But the same can be said of Bashir al-Assad and the many dictators around the world who happily murder portions of their population or wage wars (including President Xi who seems intent on wiping out the Uyghurs and other groups). How evil they are isn’t necessarily determined by the body count as that’s often proportional to opportunity and circumstance.



What?

How can you assert Trump's leadership had any impact of the sort?

If people are going right, its because they have had enough of being told how to think, speak, walk, and do by the left.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on May 12, 2023, 10:12:55 am
We have just gone through one of the best times in western society to be alive.  There was plenty to go around, plenty of money to be made, plenty of prosperity to be had, and simply a time where health and well being was never better.

Unfortunately, this has given birth to a situation where populations have exploded, and we now have a lot of uncertainty, health care has become something of a stretch for a growing and aging population, our resources arent covering the range of things they used to, education seems to be getting more expensive, and irrespective of where you sit politically, hard times are coming.  The dream of home ownership is getting more difficult.  People with high paying jobs are actually having more difficulty making ends meet, and they are not able to enjoy the privlidges they once did.  This is what is giving birth to a bit of a shift in political stance.

As people get told to embrace social justice movements that simply take more money out of tax payers for very little benefit, they start to wonder why go left?  Its inevitable that this actually gives rise to the next social movement back to conservatism. 

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 12, 2023, 10:17:16 am
The depths to which Trump would sink are only limited by external constraints. If he were able to eliminate all constraints, I shudder to think how far he’d go. After all, he’s a malignant narcissist and sociopath. He suggested to his Defence Secretary that they should launch missiles into Mexico to target drug cartels but fortunately Esper was able to talk him out of that. By the way, Mexico is not an enemy of the USA but would have become one if Trump had had his way and who knows where that would have led. This is also the stable genius who suggested that hurricanes should be targeted with nuclear bombs to blow them up. And his use of Federal agents to target BLM protesters and others shouldn’t be forgotten. Nor should his unleashing of a mob to storm the Capitol building and potentially assassinate his Vice President. Anyone who stands in his way is fair game and any amount of death or destruction he is able to inflict would not weigh on his conscience in the slightest as he has none.

The consequences of an unfettered Trump taking control of the USA are far worse than the dangers of Putin’s autocracy (unless, of course, Putin starts a nuclear war which remains unlikely) as Putin is currently boxed in. Trump’s 45th presidency pushed the far right towards power in South America and Europe and that would accelerate if he were to seize control of the USA. How would he deal with China? Would he team up with China (as Hitler did with Russia) before starting a war with China (as Hitler did with Russia)? Perhaps he’d be able to do none of this as he’s old and may not live long enough to achieve it. And maybe some of the guardrails of democracy would hold him up. But where would Trump end up if things fall well for him?

In the short term, it’s likely he’d hand Ukraine to Putin on a platter. You’re right that Putin is a war criminal and evil incarnate, but wouldn’t it be just as evil to reward his murderous attacks on civilians with victory and allow Putin to re-emerge as a global leader rather than the pariah he currently is? Putin is currently held in check by NATO, but Trump can hobble it by withdrawing from it. And seeing Putin palling around with Trump as Trump did with Kim Jong Un would cut off Putin’s enemies inside and outside Russia at the knees.

He’s already rehabilitated one murderous regime. After the murder and dismemberment of the journalist Kashoggi in the Saudi Arabian Consulate in Turkey on the orders of Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman, Saudi Arabia looked as if it would be a pariah state but Trump did everything he could to rehabilitate the murderer. And it worked. They even have a golf tour now. And a big surprise was that Saudi Arabia gave Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner billions to invest for them.

Yes, Putin is scum and the world would be better if someone takes him out. But the same can be said of Bashir al-Assad and the many dictators around the world who happily murder portions of their population or wage wars (including President Xi who seems intent on wiping out the Uyghurs and other groups). How evil they are isn’t necessarily determined by the body count as that’s often proportional to opportunity and circumstance.



Most of that is a guess of what might be if Trump was allowed free reign.
He won't be.
Even if he's in charge.
The system won't let him.
He's on the skids, he just doesn't know it.

The only reason he's still relevant is that the democrats have been so average in making a distinction between good governance and the Trump era in the eyes of the average American and....the fact that Trump and talking up the threat he poses is the best thing the Dems have going for them in an electoral sense.

If he's the republican candidate he'll split the 'right' vote and the Dems will have an easy win no matter who their candidate.

Putin on the other hand is reality.
He's living 'his' dream...and people are dying in big numbers.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 12, 2023, 11:07:12 am
Isn’t that what we all thought in 2016 Lods? No way they’ll vote in a racist, sexist liar like Trump? And then at each stage, the delusion continued. Now he’s the Republican Candidate, he’ll steer to the centre. Now he’s the President, he’ll be more presidential. Now he’s lost the election, he’ll admit defeat for the good of the country. I’m not going with wishful thinking. And there’s no doubt he’ll push harder against Democratic guardrails if he gets in this time. He’ll select far right minions to do his dirty work right off the bat and bring the DOJ and FBI to heel. Then he’ll unleash anti-democratic strategies the far right think tanks have been cooking up. Don’t expect the Supreme Court to stand in the way. Clarence Thomas’s wife is a far right activist and he’s bought and paid for by Harlan Crow. And there’s another 4 arch-conservative justices who rarely stood in Trump’s way when he was last in power.

The thing you’ve neatly sidestepped is what happens to Putin if Trump wins the election. There’s little doubt Putin will win big if Trump wins. If the war in Ukraine is still going on, Ukraine will be forked. MAGA is pro-Putin and there are already outspoken GOP critics of the US backing Ukraine. There won’t be anything to stop him handing the Ukraine over to Putin. And there won’t be anything to stop Trump helping Putin back onto the world stage. In fact, just the prospect of Trump winning election will encourage Putin to keep the war going so he can win after the US backs away. Isn’t emboldening Putin evil?

Thry, that’s the thing I love about the far right. They’re all for people having freedom of speech and freedom to live their lives as they wish. Well, as long as they approve of that speech or way of life. Just don’t say gay or write books they don’t like. Or be gay or trans. Or a feminist. Or Muslim. Or be non-white (unless you have honorary white status). Or be left-wing. Can’t you just smell the freedom?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 12, 2023, 11:17:41 am
Isn’t emboldening Putin evil?
There's a couple of maybe's in all that.
Will Trump win?
Will they cave to Putin?
Will the war still be going 18 months from now?
Will Putin still be in power?

The question was though ...who is the worst Trump or Putin
Emboldening the Devil might be evil.
But the Devil still wins. ;)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 12, 2023, 11:23:13 am
But the Devil is the most powerful force in that scenario. Humble minions might help him but he dominates.

But what about the scenario where the Devil is helped by a much more powerful being. Wouldn’t that mean the Devil is really that being’s minion or partner-in-crime? And wouldn’t that affect the moral calculus?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 12, 2023, 11:31:28 am
Putin for all his faults is more about history and his legacy and place in history.
He lives for the future.
He'd want his name and achievements to be remembered long after he's gone.
He dreams of a Russian infuence far beyond its own borders.
One that rivals the glory days of the old Soviet Union.
It's possible that Putin's public message is somewhat different from his personal motives, the immense private wealth he is collecting seems to fly in the face of his publicly stated ambitions for Russia as he is more like a harvester than a builder, like Trump his public message seems to overtly contradict his private actions.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 12, 2023, 11:38:40 am
Anyway it didn't take long, one legal loss and the floodgates have opened, lawyers and other alleged Whitehouse victims are queuing up like patrons at a Ferris Wheel!

In social media circles he's already being renamed GOTUS (Groper of the US)

To me this was always Trump's fear and motivation, he needs the US Presidency to help him avoid or delay his catching the karma bus.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 12, 2023, 11:43:58 am
Anyway it didn't take long, one legal loss and the floodgates have opened, lawyers and other alleged Whitehouse victims are queuing up like patrons at a Ferris Wheel!

In social media circles he's already being renamed GOTUS (Groper of the US)

To me this was always Trump's fear and motivation, he needs the US Presidency to help him avoid or delay his catching the karma bus.
He is a dirty rotten grub of a human, but he is no murdering psychopath.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 12, 2023, 11:47:26 am
Hope they don’t give him the chance to prove you wrong.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 12, 2023, 12:10:04 pm
The problem with this argument is the old eternal one.
Who's the biggest?

It boils down to which one we each think personally, due to our own biases and values.... is the biggest dick.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on May 12, 2023, 12:25:05 pm
The problem with this argument is the old eternal one.
Who's the biggest?

It boils down to which one we each think personally, due to our own biases and values.... is the biggest dick.

I'm tipping the people from the Ukraine would have a fairly certain view based on first hand experience.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on May 12, 2023, 12:26:25 pm
Looking at the question from another perspective:

Do I support the elimination of Putin? Absolutely!

Do I support the elimination of Aurangzeb? Not yet!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 12, 2023, 12:29:57 pm
The problem with this argument is the old eternal one.
I suppose the problem is the answer can vary dependant on when the question is asked, before his rise Hitler was spinning himself as a man of the people, the working class man's hero, afterwards not so much!

Do we see patterns of behaviour that are only really separated by where and when?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on May 12, 2023, 12:59:02 pm
I'm tipping the people from the Ukraine would have a fairly certain view based on first hand experience.

And I'd share their view...but others would argue regarding the 'potential' for Trump.
But potential is just a guess, educated though it might be, and until such time as the opportunity arises and the potential is realised... it remains a guess.
That goes to this point.

I suppose the problem is the answer can vary dependant on when the question is asked, before his rise Hitler was spinning himself as a man of the people, the working class man's hero, afterwards not so much!

Do we see patterns of behaviour that are only really separated by where and when?

A whole range of conditions contributed to the rise of Nazism in Germany.
You could argue that some of those were externally imposed following the defeat in WW1.
But essentially, yes... it boils down to the 'wrong' person in the 'wrong' place at the 'wrong' time.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on May 12, 2023, 01:19:10 pm
Isn’t that what we all thought in 2016 Lods? No way they’ll vote in a racist, sexist liar like Trump? And then at each stage, the delusion continued. Now he’s the Republican Candidate, he’ll steer to the centre. Now he’s the President, he’ll be more presidential. Now he’s lost the election, he’ll admit defeat for the good of the country. I’m not going with wishful thinking. And there’s no doubt he’ll push harder against Democratic guardrails if he gets in this time. He’ll select far right minions to do his dirty work right off the bat and bring the DOJ and FBI to heel. Then he’ll unleash anti-democratic strategies the far right think tanks have been cooking up. Don’t expect the Supreme Court to stand in the way. Clarence Thomas’s wife is a far right activist and he’s bought and paid for by Harlan Crow. And there’s another 4 arch-conservative justices who rarely stood in Trump’s way when he was last in power.

The thing you’ve neatly sidestepped is what happens to Putin if Trump wins the election. There’s little doubt Putin will win big if Trump wins. If the war in Ukraine is still going on, Ukraine will be forked. MAGA is pro-Putin and there are already outspoken GOP critics of the US backing Ukraine. There won’t be anything to stop him handing the Ukraine over to Putin. And there won’t be anything to stop Trump helping Putin back onto the world stage. In fact, just the prospect of Trump winning election will encourage Putin to keep the war going so he can win after the US backs away. Isn’t emboldening Putin evil?

Thry, that’s the thing I love about the far right. They’re all for people having freedom of speech and freedom to live their lives as they wish. Well, as long as they approve of that speech or way of life. Just don’t say gay or write books they don’t like. Or be gay or trans. Or a feminist. Or Muslim. Or be non-white (unless you have honorary white status). Or be left-wing. Can’t you just smell the freedom?

Ills on both sides of the political spectrum.

Communist Russia vs Nationalist Juntas simply obliterate people who arent "with the leader".

Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 12, 2023, 02:30:00 pm
Russia under Putin isn’t communist or even pretend-communist. It’s a Christian nationalist oligopoly or kleptocracy. That’s why right-wingers love Putin - he’s one of theirs.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on May 12, 2023, 03:02:33 pm
Putin wants to be a hero and go down in history as a reformer and one who brought Russia back to world domination.
His heroes are people like Pyotr Stolypin who was a Prime Minister who was seen as the greatest reformer in Russian History.
Trump could cut a nice deal with Putin if he was back in charge and both could come away with wins, could be the only way to end the Ukraine war other than assassinate Putin which hasnt worked....Ukraine would be the loser but with the world economy back to normal as a result there might be a few in the USA who might think about it with fears of recessions etc..
Wouldnt be my idea of a resolution leaving Zelensky adrift but the USA have no morals when its comes to money ,politics and taking the economic solution in preference to the morally right one...
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on May 12, 2023, 03:16:54 pm
A whole range of conditions contributed to the rise of Nazism in Germany.
You could argue that some of those were externally imposed following the defeat in WW1.
But essentially, yes... it boils down to the 'wrong' person in the 'wrong' place at the 'wrong' time.
When you hear and see some of the stuff happening in the US, wrong time and wrong place might be more than valid.

At least in the US we can see what is happening, the media is large and unregulated, in China, India, Pakistan and Russia that is not the case.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on May 12, 2023, 04:40:03 pm
Russia under Putin isn’t communist or even pretend-communist. It’s a Christian nationalist oligopoly or kleptocracy. That’s why right-wingers love Putin - he’s one of theirs.


Nah was more referring to the previous Soviet Union Russia and its leftist freedoms.

You know, the ones that ban religion and any questioning of the leader altogether?

Or is that nationalist fascist nowadays?

North Korea
China

These are Leftist communist nations, not fascist nationalist.

Islam was a tool used by the Ottoman empire to bring people into the yolk of Ottoman Rule.  It was the very thing that drove people away from the Byzantine empire, and sparked the renaissance.  This is where the muslim negativity stems from.  Not politics.   Your lens on Christianity is narrowed too much by what have you done for me lately ideals, and ignores history way too much.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 12, 2023, 07:13:33 pm
I can understand your antipathy towards the Ottoman Empire given that it treated Greeks as butt monkeys until the early 1800s. But your claim that the Renaissance was a reaction to Islamic proselytising is a bit bizarre. And let’s face it, the Roman Catholic Church was renowned for forcing Christianity down everyone’s throats and putting heretics to death. Don’t mention the Inquisition or you’ll get the comfy chair treatment.

I’d like to see all religions, Islam and Christianity included, kept out of politics. Anyone who wants to practice a religion should be free to do so but they shouldn’t be allowed to force non-believers to follow their edicts. Stay out of our lives and our bedrooms. In this respect, I agree with you that religion shouldn’t be forced on anyone.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Thryleon on May 12, 2023, 08:36:12 pm
I can understand your antipathy towards the Ottoman Empire given that it treated Greeks as butt monkeys until the early 1800s. But your claim that the Renaissance was a reaction to Islamic proselytising is a bit bizarre. And let’s face it, the Roman Catholic Church was renowned for forcing Christianity down everyone’s throats and putting heretics to death. Don’t mention the Inquisition or you’ll get the comfy chair treatment.

I’d like to see all religions, Islam and Christianity included, kept out of politics. Anyone who wants to practice a religion should be free to do so but they shouldn’t be allowed to force non-believers to follow their edicts. Stay out of our lives and our bedrooms. In this respect, I agree with you that religion shouldn’t be forced on anyone.
the renaissance was what happened after the fall of Constantinople.

All the people who fled the islamification of the sultan were the ones who kick-started the renaissance.





Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 12, 2023, 09:05:20 pm
I certainly congratulate you on the originality of your thesis.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Mav on May 13, 2023, 11:51:27 pm
How Trump presidency could change Ukraine war, bbc.com. (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65573756)
Quote
In the UK, which is ramping up its assistance to Ukraine to now include long-range missiles, there are concerns about the implications of a Trump presidency.
If Mr Trump cuts off the supply of weapons, the war will end on Russian terms, which is the West's worst nightmare, says the former head of Britain's secret service, Sir Alex Younger.
"Putin didn't have a Plan B when he invaded Ukraine but this is now his Plan B - to wait it out."

Bashir al-Assad is an evil villain of the highest order who bombed Syrian civilians and used chemical weapons. But he wouldn’t have been able to win the civil war and remain if Putin hadn’t backed him. Surely, Putin was equally responsible for al-Assad’s war crimes. By the same token, if Trump cuts off aid to Ukraine and leaves Ukraine at the mercy of Russia’s war of annihilation, wouldn’t he share the sins of Putin? To give Putin victory in a war he started and is losing when Russian adventurism should be punished and deterred would make Trump a psychopath guilty of aiding and abetting mass murder. Siding with Putin’s dictatorship would be a historic low for the USA. Thank God FDR was the POTUS during WW2. If it had been Trump, we’d all be goosestepping in jackboots. I can just imagine Trump boasting of having letters from that really smart guy Adolf.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on June 14, 2023, 11:02:37 am
If you ever needed evidence this bloke Trump is prepared to burn down the house to get his way, check out much of his media over the last 24hrs!

He isn't just a risk to US Democracy, he is a risk to democracy world wide! If he acts on some of his rhetoric he risks putting the EU to the sword by allowing Putin to functionally control energy for the bulk of Europe, that would leave Europe at the mercy of Russia and China, and that can't end end well!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on August 25, 2023, 04:17:20 pm
(https://www.kob.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/DONALD-TRUMP-MUGSHOT.jpg)

Orange Steel  :D
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LoveNavy on August 26, 2023, 09:31:14 pm
(https://www.kob.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/DONALD-TRUMP-MUGSHOT.jpg)

Orange Steel  :D

I was thinking - bronze scowl 😆
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on September 12, 2023, 01:49:58 pm
I must have missed something when the Republican's (home of Mitch McConnell) publicly asserted the Democrats have no backup plan for the aging Joe Biden! :o

You can't invent this stuff, it's just too weird!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on September 12, 2023, 02:08:29 pm
America-Spoiled for choice. ::)
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on September 12, 2023, 02:50:26 pm
America-Spoiled for choice. ::)
I blame this on Walt Disney!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 10, 2024, 12:47:51 pm
Don't mention the war(assassination).

Today, if you ever needed to know why the Orang and his team are dangerous, it should now be beyond doubt, this is basically the same style of vitriol that lead to the capitol riots in the first place.

In my opinion it's unequivocal proof this guy is prepared to burn down the house to get his way, they should rename him Nero!

Why the feck would anyone want to go into politics with this bloke stoking the fires, the extreme left and extreme right will meet in the chaotic middle and nobody will be safe!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on January 10, 2024, 02:16:39 pm
Don't mention the war(assassination).

Today, if you ever needed to know why the Orang and his team are dangerous, it should now be beyond doubt, this is basically the same style of vitriol that lead to the capitol riots in the first place.

In my opinion it's unequivocal proof this guy is prepared to burn down the house to get his way, they should rename him Nero!

Why the feck would anyone want to go into politics with this bloke stoking the fires, the extreme left and extreme right will meet in the chaotic middle and nobody will be safe!
Agree completely - the GOP have a lot to answer for, standing idly by while this guy trashes democracy.   And if he does win, heaven help those on the other side of the fence......
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Gointocarlton on January 10, 2024, 04:52:41 pm
America-Spoiled for choice. ::)
After Biden, the next US will be a "Weekend At Bernies" character. They may even wheel out a dead Biden with his shades on and being held up and advisors/CIA guards.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 17, 2024, 02:41:43 pm
We can laugh at it, but the following is an example of how dangerous politics can be once the public is incited.

Apparently in the recent Iowa nominations Trump lost in one region and he's taken offence at it with quiet rumours of retribution to the voters of that region, and in the interim Trump's supporters are already claiming the result against him in that region was due to election tampering.

So if that's how they behave in a trivial pre-selection, bullying voters, what's going to happen in the real deal?

I've personally very little interest in either Democrat or Republican, but I've just watched a great series on the World War II from the Frontlines and the types of fanaticism back then draw an uncomfortable parallel to the current global political climate abroad and at home.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on January 17, 2024, 03:15:03 pm
We can laugh at it, but the following is an example of how dangerous politics can be once the public is incited.

Apparently in the recent Iowa nominations Trump lost in one region and he's taken offence at it with quiet rumours of retribution to the voters of that region, and in the interim Trump's supporters are already claiming the result against him in that region was due to election tampering.

So if that's how they behave in a trivial pre-selection, bullying voters, what's going to happen in the real deal?

I've personally very little interest in either Democrat or Republican, but I've just watched a great series on the World War II from the Frontlines and the types of fanaticism back then draw an uncomfortable parallel to the current global political climate abroad and at home.
Donald is getting scarier with each 'victory' - I reckon they need to make sure he gets an orange jumpsuit to match his complexion.......
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Baggers on January 17, 2024, 04:53:08 pm
Donald is getting scarier with each 'victory' - I reckon they need to make sure he gets an orange jumpsuit to match his complexion.......

Aint that the truth!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 17, 2024, 06:59:35 pm
Donald is getting scarier with each 'victory' - I reckon they need to make sure he gets an orange jumpsuit to match his complexion.......
It appears that the people after him for financial and trading issues are convinced he'll use the US Presidency for retribution, so they are very restrained in their pursuit of lost funds.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: madbluboy on January 17, 2024, 07:06:02 pm
How is he scarier than the other republican candidates?
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on January 18, 2024, 08:02:50 am
How is he scarier than the other republican candidates?
Mostly I think it's his unpredictability, the question is I suppose is it carefully planned to appear unhinged or really scattergun.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: tonyo on January 18, 2024, 08:37:05 am
How is he scarier than the other republican candidates?
You only need to listen to his proclamations to realise he is a narcissistic liar who believes he is above all accountability.  If he is in the Oval Office again, he will make sure that things are done his way this time, and any political/business/legal opponents will find their proverbial heads on stakes and on display in Times Square.

Sadly, no-one in the GOP will have the guts to stop him.  His team will be a bunch of subservient sycophants who will be more than happy to compromise their ideals to stay in Donald's good books.
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: DJC on January 21, 2024, 12:51:41 pm
Anyone familiar with Aurangzeb’s lawyer, Alina Habba, in the defamation case?

She said on a podcast that, if given a choice between being pretty or smart, she would take pretty because it’s easy to fake being smart. Well, she’s not doing a very good job of it …
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on March 06, 2024, 02:08:53 pm
Ignoring the issues about Biden as Trumps opponent, which I'm sure someone will raise in the usual defence of Trump, I'm utterly gobsmacked anybody can seriously think a bloke like Trump or Musk will have the general public's best interest at heart.

I genuinely doubt they would even lift their foot of the accelerator for you, especially in Trump's case for the majority of people who most loudly support him!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: LP on March 06, 2024, 02:12:25 pm
Anyone familiar with Aurangzeb’s lawyer, Alina Habba, in the defamation case?
Alina Habba is to Trump's defence team what Hird was to the CheatsFC MC, a face for the media.

You don't have to be low paid to be a puppet!
Title: Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Post by: Lods on March 06, 2024, 02:33:14 pm
Zombie v Predator 2... in cinemas November 5th ::)