Carlton Supporters Club

Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: crashlander on September 14, 2020, 02:28:59 pm

Title: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: crashlander on September 14, 2020, 02:28:59 pm
I would like to say: veni, vedi, vici!
For those who speak no Latin (like me), I came, I saw, I conquered.
Thank you, Gaius Julius Caesar.

Once upon a time I would have believed that. Alas, the last two decades have shown that we have decayed rather poorly. I simply cannot see us winning this one, not even after last week's humiliation at the hands of the Adelaide Cows. I hate that. I hate that it represents our present incompetence.

Like the Roman Empire, we have fallen from our perch. This is already the longest period we've ever hand between premierships and it shows not enough signs of changing. We need a Justinian and a Belisarius (and no Plagues) to drive us back to being the team we were.
Just at the moment, I can't see our selection policy or our will being enough to take on a team that is finals bound.

Maybe that is the depression and anxiety talking. I would have things otherwise.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: capcom on September 14, 2020, 02:45:06 pm
Fine language crash :)
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: cookie2 on September 14, 2020, 02:53:51 pm
@Crash.
Did not the Roman Empire rot from within?
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Macca37 on September 14, 2020, 06:00:58 pm
Crash, well said.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 14, 2020, 06:06:37 pm
Be affraid, be very affraid. I want this season to end ASAP as I have now lost all interest.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: laj on September 14, 2020, 06:22:44 pm
Be affraid, be very affraid. I want this season to end ASAP as I have now lost all interest.

We're liable to come out and win it. That would be so Carlton. That could annoy me even more in some ways.

Normally the cue is in the rack for the last round but we did that last week. First time I detected Teague a bit angry underneath in the presser so it might be put on them. He was trying to be diplomatic but you could feel it underneath and by a couple of things he said.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on September 14, 2020, 06:44:01 pm
....................................................................First time I detected Teague a bit angry underneath in the presser so it might be put on them. He was trying to be diplomatic but you could feel it underneath and by a couple of things he said.

This was my impression as well.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: laj on September 14, 2020, 06:50:31 pm
This was my impression as well.

He just said he was pretty emotive at half time. Most emotive, few stats.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on September 14, 2020, 08:00:07 pm
I'm not expecting to win, but I'm confident we will see a more determined and spirited effort in this game. The boys will not have to worry about the next week. They can leave it all out there, plus Simpsons's last game.....

And if we are going to play Cripps forward, please play him out of the goal square. His confidence in goal kicking is shot - the closer the better IMO.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: crashlander on September 15, 2020, 01:17:12 pm
@Crash.
Did not the Roman Empire rot from within?
Indeed. And the less political power the people had, the more the army had, and the less effective it was.
Becoming and remaining Emperor became the job of the ruler, not actually ruling or making hard decisions. Empire fell to barbarians, yes, but it wouldn't have where it not rotten.

Sounds like us at the the late 1990's and early 2000's.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: crashlander on September 15, 2020, 01:20:25 pm
I'm not expecting to win, but I'm confident we will see a more determined and spirited effort in this game. The boys will not have to worry about the next week. They can leave it all out there, plus Simpsons's last game.....

And if we are going to play Cripps forward, please play him out of the goal square. His confidence in goal kicking is shot - the closer the better IMO.
We used to have a brilliant record at responding to matches like this. But that was a long time ago. Lately we've served up some of our worst performances for retirements and such.

I will hope the lads respond for Simmo: he deserves to go out on a high. But I don't expect to see it. Not enough spirit in the team of late.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Pratty on September 16, 2020, 01:46:20 pm
This week...

7 Defenders - Jones, Weitering, Plowman, McGovern, Simpson, Williamson, Newnes
7 Midfielders - Setterfield, Walsh, Cuningham, Petrevski-Seton, Gibbons, Kennedy, O'Brien
1 Ruck - De Koning (relief from Casboult)
7 Forwards - McKay, Casboult, Cripps, Betts, Martin, Murphy, E.Curnow
*Docherty and Fisher out injured.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: rocky on September 16, 2020, 01:49:58 pm
This week...

7 Defenders - Jones, Weitering, Plowman, McGovern, Simpson, Williamson, Newnes
7 Midfielders - Setterfield, Walsh, Cuningham, Petrevski-Seton, Gibbons, Kennedy, O'Brien
1 Ruck - De Koning (relief from Casboult)
7 Forwards - McKay, Casboult, Cripps, Betts, Fisher, Murphy, E.Curnow
*Assuming Docherty out injured.
I don't think Fish will play either. running around with one arm on Sunday.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Pratty on September 16, 2020, 02:52:52 pm
I don't think Fish will play either. running around with one arm on Sunday.

Edited.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Baggers on September 16, 2020, 05:48:24 pm
This week...

7 Defenders - Jones, Weitering, Plowman, McGovern, Simpson, Williamson, Newnes
7 Midfielders - Setterfield, Walsh, Cuningham, Petrevski-Seton, Gibbons, Kennedy, O'Brien
1 Ruck - De Koning (relief from Casboult)
7 Forwards - McKay, Casboult, Cripps, Betts, Martin, Murphy, E.Curnow
*Docherty and Fisher out injured.

Couldn't possibly let Cameo Cuningham run around again. McGov redeemed himself a fraction with some 2nd half efforts against the Crows.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: laj on September 16, 2020, 06:04:00 pm
Couldn't possibly let Cameo Cuningham run around again. McGov redeemed himself a fraction with some 2nd half efforts against the Crows.

Did better when moved to the midfield, where we recruited him.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: WASurfer on September 16, 2020, 06:07:33 pm
Docherty & Fisher confirmed out....and Martin a likely in.

I'd give Cottrell another run.....play him on Mitch Robinson just so we can see the similarities!

Kennedy in for McGovern.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 16, 2020, 06:50:14 pm
Kennedy in for McGovern.
If murmurings are correct, wont happen.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Baggers on September 16, 2020, 06:54:52 pm
Did better when moved to the midfield, where we recruited him.

Sorry, but cannot be relied upon. Sadly, hasn't any mental toughness or consistency or reliability. Too flashy and seems incapable of hunting his own aggott. I'd trade him, might be able to swap him.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ianh on September 16, 2020, 08:11:58 pm
Sorry, but cannot be relied upon. Sadly, hasn't any mental toughness or consistency or reliability. Too flashy and seems incapable of hunting his own aggott. I'd trade him, might be able to swap him.
Trade him for what?  Half a tube of linament?Fair deal I would say.  Great pity he has the tools but just not the desire or application.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Pratty on September 17, 2020, 08:25:10 am
Couldn't possibly let Cameo Cuningham run around again. McGov redeemed himself a fraction with some 2nd half efforts against the Crows.

So if Cuningham is a cameo what is McGovern?

Cunners needs midfield time with the other young blokes if we are ever going to see how they go. Whole game midfield without reliance on Cripps, Ed Curnow and Murphy.

Take the training wheels off Teaguey!
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 17, 2020, 08:34:50 am
So if Cuningham is a cameo what is McGovern?

Cunners needs midfield time with the other young blokes if we are ever going to see how they go. Whole game midfield without reliance on Cripps, Ed Curnow and Murphy.

Take the training wheels off Teaguey!
Agree, time to see what he's got by giving him a big midfield role for the whole year week in week out (providing he doesnt hurt himself taking out the bins). To use one of my favorite sayings of late, "pi55 or get off the pot" Cunners.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on September 17, 2020, 08:40:40 am
....................................

Cunners needs midfield time with the other young blokes if we are ever going to see how they go. Whole game midfield without reliance on Cripps, Ed Curnow and Murphy.

Take the training wheels off Teaguey!

That's what the previous coach tried to do, and he was bashed from pillar to post. At any rate, this is the sort of thing that should be tried with several games left. Doing it for the last game of the year won't show much IMO.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: cookie2 on September 17, 2020, 08:52:13 am
The first part of Teague's mission was to get us up the ladder and thus bolster membership imo. His next challenge is to consolidate and develop the list, which has started with recent retirements. This will need to continue apace next year without slipping back. We live in interesting times, to coin a phrase.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Baggers on September 17, 2020, 10:14:20 am
So if Cuningham is a cameo what is McGovern? Not much different, but has at least shown consistent goal kicking danger - just not with us!!! Cuningham has played maybe 2 good games in his entire career.

Cunners needs midfield time with the other young blokes if we are ever going to see how they go. Whole game midfield without reliance on Cripps, Ed Curnow and Murphy. And you watch how quickly and easily we get scored against. Cuningham has never shown an ability to 'get down and dirty' or to hunt his own aggott, never. Receiver, with sublime skills, when he bothers.

Take the training wheels off Teaguey! He's learning to take his own off first! Why do you think we're hunting around for good, strong midfielders? To support Cripps, Curnow, Walsh...
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Milhanna13 on September 17, 2020, 02:08:13 pm
What chance that Brissie dont turn up to play?  They are entrenched in top 2.  Nothing to play for.  Remember that final round usually throws up a number of "upsets" when teams with nothing to play for cruise.  Not sure if that will continue into this odd season, but I cant see why it wouldnt??
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: WASurfer on September 17, 2020, 02:53:55 pm
The only problem MilHanna is that in the last two weeks, we haven't turned up to play either....absolutely belted in both opening quarters. If Brisbane don't turn up either then it'll be the worst quarter of footy of all time.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Micky0 on September 17, 2020, 03:05:11 pm
What chance that Brissie dont turn up to play?  They are entrenched in top 2.  Nothing to play for.  Remember that final round usually throws up a number of "upsets" when teams with nothing to play for cruise.  Not sure if that will continue into this odd season, but I cant see why it wouldnt??
zero chance.  They will want to win, afterall we beat them last year, they are not going to go into cruise control.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Pratty on September 17, 2020, 04:12:29 pm


Disagree with all that. With genuine exposure, anything can happen. I'm prepared to be bold.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Pratty on September 17, 2020, 04:14:33 pm
That's what the previous coach tried to do, and he was bashed from pillar to post. At any rate, this is the sort of thing that should be tried with several games left. Doing it for the last game of the year won't show much IMO.

I think we've come a long way in a short period of time since Bolton to be honest.

I think equally the young blokes are that 18 months older. Makes a difference. I think also there is a better system in place now compared to under Bolton. Plus he threw Dow and a small Fisher into the midfield and I reckon it was just too early for them.

Last game? I'd rather we try something for the preseason and 2021 than not. You might uncover something.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on September 17, 2020, 04:42:23 pm
I think we've come a long way in a short period of time since Bolton to be honest.

I think equally the young blokes are that 18 months older. Makes a difference. I think also there is a better system in place now compared to under Bolton. Plus he threw Dow and a small Fisher into the midfield and I reckon it was just too early for them.

Last game? I'd rather we try something for the preseason and 2021 than not. You might uncover something.

I'll not going to get into another Bolton argument, but any development in the young blokes would be negligible since Bolton left. Yes, the passing of time makes them older, but how much real football development have they experienced since mid 2019 ? Teague played them in the 2nd half of last season because he had to. The minute trade time rolled around, he brought in grandpa Eddie, 100 gamer Martin and Pittonet, and pretty much banished the kids to stuff all scratch matches, and an occasional appearance in the seniors, like a human drip feed. Teague's priority was not development, you can be quite certain of that. That will have to change, but I don't think he will do it until he really has to.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: laj on September 17, 2020, 04:53:08 pm
I think we've come a long way in a short period of time since Bolton to be honest.

I think equally the young blokes are that 18 months older. Makes a difference. I think also there is a better system in place now compared to under Bolton. Plus he threw Dow and a small Fisher into the midfield and I reckon it was just too early for them.

Last game? I'd rather we try something for the preseason and 2021 than not. You might uncover something.

Bolton threw some of the young players to the wolves when they weren't ready and it hurt their confidence. They should've been in lesser roles as they developed. Reckon that shot Dow's confidence and did nothing for him. Hopefully haven't killed a good youngster. Great in his first year and a qtr but then fell right away. That's why SOS got some temporary big bodies for that purpose that, as he said, weren't going to be here for more than a couple of years. Similar happened to Weitering playing him in the wrong roles. Was doubted by many for a while but thankfully come good.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 17, 2020, 06:58:37 pm
The only problem MilHanna is that in the last two weeks, we haven't turned up to play either....absolutely belted in both opening quarters. If Brisbane don't turn up either then it'll be the worst quarter of footy of all time.
Yep, our blokes are already checked out drinking pinacoladas celebrating Simmos career. Crippa and Walshy suggesting a big effort for Simmo is utter lip service.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: crashlander on September 17, 2020, 07:13:13 pm
Yep, our blokes are already checked out drinking pinacoladas celebrating Simmos career. Crippa and Walshy suggesting a big effort for Simmo is utter lip service.
Our great fear. We've disappointed so many in recent times, I was really hoping we could pull the finger out. So much for hope.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 17, 2020, 07:25:54 pm
Our great fear. We've disappointed so many in recent times, I was really hoping we could pull the finger out. So much for hope.
It has to change one day Crash.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: cookie2 on September 17, 2020, 07:28:53 pm
Yep, our blokes are already checked out drinking pinacoladas celebrating Simmos career. Crippa and Walshy suggesting a big effort for Simmo is utter lip service.

Sounds very ominous.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Milhanna13 on September 17, 2020, 07:46:16 pm
The only problem MilHanna is that in the last two weeks, we haven't turned up to play either....absolutely belted in both opening quarters. If Brisbane don't turn up either then it'll be the worst quarter of footy of all time.

Ha!!  Could be on to something!  Nil-all at q time??
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: capcom on September 17, 2020, 08:37:14 pm
Yep, our blokes are already checked out drinking pinacoladas celebrating Simmos career. Crippa and Walshy suggesting a big effort for Simmo is utter lip service.

Time and a place for everything ... sigh ... this ain't it.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: shawny on September 17, 2020, 09:34:38 pm
Rumour on socials is Murphy won’t play.

Probably done his shoulder chairing Gibbs off. 🙄
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Pratty on September 18, 2020, 10:07:24 am
I'll not going to get into another Bolton argument, but any development in the young blokes would be negligible since Bolton left. Yes, the passing of time makes them older, but how much real football development have they experienced since mid 2019 ? Teague played them in the 2nd half of last season because he had to. The minute trade time rolled around, he brought in grandpa Eddie, 100 gamer Martin and Pittonet, and pretty much banished the kids to stuff all scratch matches, and an occasional appearance in the seniors, like a human drip feed. Teague's priority was not development, you can be quite certain of that. That will have to change, but I don't think he will do it until he really has to.


It's not about Bolton, anymore. I too think the young guys' confidence is shot from the early days. Times have changed. 18 months older is a big difference in maturity.

If we're not going to play these younger guys in bigger roles, then why do we still have them on our list and why would we keep them past tomorrow's final game?

I think the next step for Teague now is to balance the winning with exposing some younger guys into bigger roles with more responsibility. I don't say that for the sake of it. We're not winning games of footy so think that's our cue to change it up a bit. I'm disappointed Teague hasn't. He's stayed loyal to the structure and senior players. That's ok to a degree. His next challenge is to get more our of the fringe types.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: cookie2 on September 18, 2020, 10:34:04 am
We can't put our approach all on to Teague. Under this club administration there is a strategy that is being followed that includes commercial considerations as well as player development etc. Not saying this is the right way necessarily as I don't profess to fully understand all of it's detail. However, I firmly believe that Teague was under instruction to contest and win as many games as possible with the players he had available best suited to that task. Next year the list will have changed and oldies will have gone,  but I think he will still be expected to win games with hopefully the addition of some outside mature talent.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on September 18, 2020, 10:48:09 am
It's not about Bolton, anymore. I too think the young guys' confidence is shot from the early days. Times have changed. 18 months older is a big difference in maturity.

If we're not going to play these younger guys in bigger roles, then why do we still have them on our list and why would we keep them past tomorrow's final game?

I think the next step for Teague now is to balance the winning with exposing some younger guys into bigger roles with more responsibility. I don't say that for the sake of it. We're not winning games of footy so think that's our cue to change it up a bit. I'm disappointed Teague hasn't. He's stayed loyal to the structure and senior players. That's ok to a degree. His next challenge is to get more our of the fringe types.

From what I have seen, he seems to be bringing them in slower which is probably a better mix.  Give them a bigger role next season and see how we go.

Remember irrespective of how this season has gone, the most mature players were probaby better equipped to survive it and thrive in it simply due to time playing the game.  Repeat pre seasons, better knowledge of their body and how to get up for the following week after quick turnarounds in unfamiliar locations.

Its been interesting. 

Id really love to know where Liam Stocker is and whats going to happen there in respect to his footy.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Pratty on September 18, 2020, 10:50:55 am
From what I have seen, he seems to be bringing them in slower which is probably a better mix.  Give them a bigger role next season and see how we go.

Remember irrespective of how this season has gone, the most mature players were probaby better equipped to survive it and thrive in it simply due to time playing the game.  Repeat pre seasons, better knowledge of their body and how to get up for the following week after quick turnarounds in unfamiliar locations.

Its been interesting. 

Id really love to know where Liam Stocker is and whats going to happen there in respect to his footy.

I agree Thry. Next year I would think it has to be the next step. I think for me it;s this past 3-4 weeks I would have loved to see some change up on field.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: kruddler on September 18, 2020, 10:57:50 am
From what I have seen, he seems to be bringing them in slower which is probably a better mix.  Give them a bigger role next season and see how we go.

Remember irrespective of how this season has gone, the most mature players were probaby better equipped to survive it and thrive in it simply due to time playing the game.  Repeat pre seasons, better knowledge of their body and how to get up for the following week after quick turnarounds in unfamiliar locations.

Its been interesting. 

Id really love to know where Liam Stocker is and whats going to happen there in respect to his footy.

Part of the reason they would've been brought in slower this year is they have basically no exposed form in the 2's to hone their craft.

Hard to teach the kids defensive gut running at training.

In hindsight, it was the ideal time to draft a kid who has done his knee (Kemp) as he's missed nothing, and we've missed nothing.

I would hope that some of our kids take on the same kind of personal responsibility over their careers as Cripps did when he hired his own personal running coach.
We need Dow, Obrien, Stocker etc to put in the hard yards in the off-season and come back bigger, better, stronger, faster and most of all HUNGRY.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: townsendcalling on September 18, 2020, 11:37:46 am
Again, they reiterated on the radio today that the HUB / restricted training was a clear advantage to older, more established lists like Richmond, Geelong, West Coast etc who had successful systems in place that had been executed prior to lockdown.  Our backline held up because Jones, Weitering, Plowman and Simmo have had time together......our forward line hasn't had that continuity, and it shows!!!  That's where the improvement will come in 2021.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: laj on September 18, 2020, 11:57:42 am
Rumour on socials is Murphy won’t play.

Probably done his shoulder chairing Gibbs off. 🙄

He said in a interview he is disappointed he can't play in Simmo's last game.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on September 18, 2020, 11:59:16 am
It's not about Bolton, anymore. I too think the young guys' confidence is shot from the early days. Times have changed. 18 months older is a big difference in maturity.

If we're not going to play these younger guys in bigger roles, then why do we still have them on our list and why would we keep them past tomorrow's final game?

I think the next step for Teague now is to balance the winning with exposing some younger guys into bigger roles with more responsibility. I don't say that for the sake of it. We're not winning games of footy so think that's our cue to change it up a bit. I'm disappointed Teague hasn't. He's stayed loyal to the structure and senior players. That's ok to a degree. His next challenge is to get more our of the fringe types.

This idea that the confidence of Dow, O'Brien etc. is shot from the early days is dubious IMO. Nobody expected Dow to go h2h with Dangerfield etc. and come away with the points. He and the others were clearly there to learn, and the ethos was to have all the kids play and grow together. Also notwithstanding the expected human behavior that we tend to feel better about ourselves when we are included rather than excluded. Any loss of confidence is likely to be from Dow, OBrien etc twiddling their thumbs for a year not getting games rather than anything that came before. The players and coaches are in constant dialogue, the players have mouths, the leadership group and coaches have ears, they have eyes - there are numerous ways in which a loss of confidence in a youngster could be detected and addressed.

IMO, the last 15 or 16 months is basically coitus interruptus, and the club has potentially caused itself a few headaches. This is a season which will not be taken seriously when history is written. It would have been the perfect season to play kids en masse. Instead, the club decided that short term wins were what is needed, and selling memberships to folks who couldn't really use them was the go, so Liddle could show he was good at boosting revenue. Well, that's fine -  mission accomplished. What happens now ? The club is expected to play finals next season, and having at least two if not more oldies depart, we will be forced to play kids who are essentially at the same level of football development they were last year. The club cannot have its cake and eat it too. If you want wins, you can't play kids en masse, and if you want development, you have to sacrifice a few wins, which in a nothing season, would have been a better option.

There is no certainty that Dow O'Brien and all the rest have what it takes - playing them in one or two games proves nothing. It should hardly surprise that they showed little when given a recall. Finding out next season whether they have it or not is almost too late IMO.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Milhanna13 on September 18, 2020, 12:04:19 pm
It's not about Bolton, anymore. I too think the young guys' confidence is shot from the early days. Times have changed. 18 months older is a big difference in maturity.

If we're not going to play these younger guys in bigger roles, then why do we still have them on our list and why would we keep them past tomorrow's final game?

I think the next step for Teague now is to balance the winning with exposing some younger guys into bigger roles with more responsibility. I don't say that for the sake of it. We're not winning games of footy so think that's our cue to change it up a bit. I'm disappointed Teague hasn't. He's stayed loyal to the structure and senior players. That's ok to a degree. His next challenge is to get more our of the fringe types.

Its a hard balance, isnt it? 

Play all the kids in the guts, all the time, and you get what happenned to Bolton - lose games, kids get smashed and lose confidence, no one wins. 

Play the senior guys in the guts, and the kids dont get an exposure - you see Cunners getting frostbite sitting on a flank for games on end, you see youngsters come in and play on a flank or in a pocket (where they havent played in the 2s) and they fail, along with not getting any exposure to the heat and a chance to learn and develop

Of course, the good sides make it look easy.  We just need to get that balance right
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Milhanna13 on September 18, 2020, 12:09:17 pm
Again, they reiterated on the radio today that the HUB / restricted training was a clear advantage to older, more established lists like Richmond, Geelong, West Coast etc who had successful systems in place that had been executed prior to lockdown.  Our backline held up because Jones, Weitering, Plowman and Simmo have had time together......our forward line hasn't had that continuity, and it shows!!!  That's where the improvement will come in 2021.

Good point re Backline standing up as they are more senior/spent more time together

This thinking makes sense - hope it is true and we do see improvements from the fwd line, and from the kids in general
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 18, 2020, 12:54:51 pm
The clubs with depth are the ones who have handled the covid shortbreak game season well...Richmond are the classic example of being able to swing in like for like players, rest players and now we are seeing the likes of Edwards, Astbury returning they only look stronger. Even with Soldo gone they have a readymade quality replacement in Nankervis to take over.
We dont have the depth of talent and dont even have a designated best 22, you get best systems when you get depth and only then do you have successful systems because more players are capable of playing the roles in that system.
If we had lost our Astbury in Weitering and our Edwards in Martin for any length of time we would have been hammered most weeks as we dont have the cover...
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Wet Willie on September 18, 2020, 12:58:02 pm
The shame of it all is that we have had the same number of drafts to sort this out and match them...
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 18, 2020, 01:07:30 pm
The shame of it all is that we have had the same number of drafts to sort this out and match them...
Richmond were 9thmond for a long time and only got it together when they had the trinity draft of Caddy, Prestia, Nankervis and
a new bold game plan where they went with multiple pressure small forwards and that was out of necessity as they didnt have another key forward of note to support Reiwoldt. They had that rock solid rebounding defense though to underpin the new game plan and the players they recruited were in the main decently skilled and capable contested players even the smaller lighter framed ones. Dusty Martin went to a new level as a catalyst player and Hardwick now looks like the next Clarko....but it all took time and planning.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: kruddler on September 18, 2020, 02:06:09 pm
The clubs with depth are the ones who have handled the covid shortbreak game season well...Richmond are the classic example of being able to swing in like for like players, rest players and now we are seeing the likes of Edwards, Astbury returning they only look stronger. Even with Soldo gone they have a readymade quality replacement in Nankervis to take over.
We dont have the depth of talent and dont even have a designated best 22, you get best systems when you get depth and only then do you have successful systems because more players are capable of playing the roles in that system.
If we had lost our Astbury in Weitering and our Edwards in Martin for any length of time we would have been hammered most weeks as we dont have the cover...

We forget though....
we've been without (what was) our #1 ruckman all year - Kreuzer.
we've been without our #1 key forward all year - Curnow
we lost a guaranteed starter for the entire year - Newman

There are others.

But for those 3, we covered them brilliantly.
Pittonet and TDK both stepped up and forced Kreuzers retirement.
We've had our struggles up forward but Harry and Casboult have held down our key roles and dominated games (and gone missing in others)
Newman (and Daisy's delisting) was covered by Simmo, Doc and the (re)emergence of Willo.

The difference between us and tigers besides overall depth is.....we didn't get any of those players back!
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Pratty on September 18, 2020, 04:06:45 pm
Its a hard balance, isnt it? 

Play all the kids in the guts, all the time, and you get what happenned to Bolton - lose games, kids get smashed and lose confidence, no one wins. 

Play the senior guys in the guts, and the kids dont get an exposure - you see Cunners getting frostbite sitting on a flank for games on end, you see youngsters come in and play on a flank or in a pocket (where they havent played in the 2s) and they fail, along with not getting any exposure to the heat and a chance to learn and develop

Of course, the good sides make it look easy.  We just need to get that balance right

Yep it's definitely a balancing act for sure. Dow has had knee issues this season anyway. 2021 is his time after a hopefully strong preseason like the rest of the list.

If we're after Jack Graham, Zach Merrett and Zac Williams (to play midfield) I'm all for it for sure but wonder of the fate of the younger group of mids we have.

Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: JonDorotich on September 18, 2020, 05:22:17 pm
We forget though....
we've been without (what was) our #1 ruckman all year - Kreuzer.
we've been without our #1 key forward all year - Curnow
we lost a guaranteed starter for the entire year - Newman

There are others.

But for those 3, we covered them brilliantly.
Pittonet and TDK both stepped up and forced Kreuzers retirement.
We've had our struggles up forward but Harry and Casboult have held down our key roles and dominated games (and gone missing in others)
Newman (and Daisy's delisting) was covered by Simmo, Doc and the (re)emergence of Willo.

The difference between us and tigers besides overall depth is.....we didn't get any of those players back!

Whilst others celebrate it, I shudder at the thought of Jones, Newman and Plowman in our defence at the one time. If we go into 2021 thinking that’s a good idea get ready for a finish no higher than 14th.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: cookie2 on September 18, 2020, 05:42:42 pm
If we can significantly improve our midfield and get our fwd set up better organised then a huge amount of pressure will come off our defence.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: laj on September 18, 2020, 06:42:08 pm
Ins: Matthew Kennedy, Jack Martin, Marc Pittonet, Cameron Polson
Outs: Sam Docherty (calf), Zac Fisher (shoulder), Will Setterfield (calf), Lochie O'Brien
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Baggers on September 18, 2020, 06:59:35 pm
Unbelievable... Cuningham & McGovern keep their places while there are a couple of emergencies who will at least have a red hot crack and do their best to play 4 qtrs. Rewarding mediocrity, again.

McGovern, Casboult, Pittonet, McKay and TDK doing forward line and rucking duties! Murphy under and injury cloud along with Crippa. Good to see Martin return and Kennedy given another chance... coupla good tacklers with a bit of snarl.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: rocky on September 18, 2020, 06:59:53 pm
Don't see the point in playing the Pitt, but the other 3 inclusions are pretty much, meh, whatever.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 18, 2020, 07:00:53 pm
Don't see the point in playing the Pitt, but the other 3 inclusions are pretty much, meh, whatever.
Farewell game for Polson.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: rocky on September 18, 2020, 07:07:23 pm
Farewell game for Polson.
With all the talk about Kennedy this week, maybe it's his as well?
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: shawny on September 18, 2020, 07:11:23 pm
Farewell game for Polson.

Don’t bet on it. He may be used on Cameron!
Omg can you imagine....

On a serious note why would the MC bother with Polson who is surely delisted at years end over one of the other kids that still has a chance to make it. What a waste of an opportunity to get another game into a kid.
And did we really need Pit this week. Means we are very tall and slow. Would have preferred to give another chance to any of Dow, Cottrell, Owies, Honey.

I don’t get it.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: shawny on September 18, 2020, 07:13:48 pm
With all the talk about Kennedy this week, maybe it's his as well?
So not only to chair off opponents when we lose we now gift farewell games to blokes who don’t make it while the kids on the list don’t play.

If true it’s yet another dumb ass decision that makes zero sense.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Baggers on September 18, 2020, 07:30:14 pm
Don’t bet on it. He may be used on Cameron!
Omg can you imagine....

On a serious note why would the MC bother with Polson who is surely delisted at years end over one of the other kids that still has a chance to make it. What a waste of an opportunity to get another game into a kid.
And did we really need Pit this week. Means we are very tall and slow. Would have preferred to give another chance to any of Dow, Cottrell, Owies, Honey.

I don’t get it.

Can we draft out the MC?
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: laj on September 18, 2020, 07:34:19 pm
Don’t bet on it. He may be used on Cameron!
Omg can you imagine....

On a serious note why would the MC bother with Polson who is surely delisted at years end over one of the other kids that still has a chance to make it. What a waste of an opportunity to get another game into a kid.
And did we really need Pit this week. Means we are very tall and slow. Would have preferred to give another chance to any of Dow, Cottrell, Owies, Honey.

I don’t get it.

I've worried about team selection for years. Been mind boggling for a couple of decades.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: laj on September 18, 2020, 07:37:23 pm
Why did we pick Pittonet. Two rucks. Automatically means both Pittonet and Casboult wiill struggle. Levi's been better the last 2 weeks since he's been back rucking but usually struggles when he's simply a forward. Much better as a forward/ruck. Now it means we are possibly playing 2 short essentially.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: laj on September 18, 2020, 07:38:59 pm
With all the talk about Kennedy this week, maybe it's his as well?

Haven't heard anything about Kennedy in that regard.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Thryleon on September 18, 2020, 09:09:12 pm
Don’t bet on it. He may be used on Cameron!
Omg can you imagine....

On a serious note why would the MC bother with Polson who is surely delisted at years end over one of the other kids that still has a chance to make it. What a waste of an opportunity to get another game into a kid.
And did we really need Pit this week. Means we are very tall and slow. Would have preferred to give another chance to any of Dow, Cottrell, Owies, Honey.

I don’t get it.

One thing polson brings is effort.

This might be his last chance to show something.

Im not sure what it is about Polson.   I really want him to succeed.  Unfortunately I dont think he's good enough.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Lods on September 18, 2020, 10:12:33 pm
One thing polson brings is effort.

This might be his last chance to show something.

Im not sure what it is about Polson.   I really want him to succeed.  Unfortunately I dont think he's good enough.

Same
He's a trier but  the skills just aren't quite up to it.
Was a fan after his excitement the night he was drafted and hoped he'd  have a good career.
But the jungle drums are beating....and  there's a fair chance if he's in defence tomorrow it may not be the greatest place for a 'last hurrah' as the Lions warm up for the finals.

Just get the feeling we may see a few more changes before the bounce.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: kruddler on September 19, 2020, 06:30:20 am
Just get the feeling we may see a few more changes before the bounce.

I had the same feeling.

Gone in extra tall.
Rumour of Murphy missing appears not to be true.

We'll see.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: Gointocarlton on September 19, 2020, 08:21:12 am
Haven't heard anything about Kennedy in that regard.
The "word" on another forum and twitter (since deleted) this week is that he is out of favour with the coaches, doesnt chase, doesnt run two ways, not being accountable for an opponent, poor attitude and not working hard enough. Given he is playing this week would suggest its BS.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: crashlander on September 19, 2020, 11:37:19 am
I can understand playing Pittonet. Brisbane have two good rucks and we need the same. The issues it brings up ... well, I wouldn't have played McGovern as a forward. It makes out forward line too big. Pitto was good and he has the style of play to get his hand on the ball first.
I would have played Cottrell: nobody has really got a hold of him as yet and his athleticism is good. he stands up at crucial moment.

I am expecting to be pounded. They have a future in 2020, we're already finished mentally.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on September 19, 2020, 12:10:06 pm
I think the boys will give a good account of themselves, and I'm expecting to see 4 q of committed footy. 

Pittonet, Martin and Polson all have some ticker, which is just what this team needs, and are good ins IMO. Plus Simmo's last game, plus Kreuzer retiring........

I'm not expecting a win, but I think people will be surprised.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: WASurfer on September 19, 2020, 12:38:56 pm
Polson and Plowman down back....with Zorko, Cameron, Rayner.....this has got bad news written all over it.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on September 19, 2020, 12:40:02 pm
Why did we pick Pittonet. Two rucks. Automatically means both Pittonet and Casboult wiill struggle. Levi's been better the last 2 weeks since he's been back rucking but usually struggles when he's simply a forward. Much better as a forward/ruck. Now it means we are possibly playing 2 short essentially.
Probably because they picked Stefan Martin and DeKoning struggled vs Obrien last week. I agree I would have stuck with just DeKoning and Casboult, we look slower and have less options IMO.
I would have played Cottrell on Robbo for the experience and warped sense of humour it might provide....
We will miss Setterfield who isnt brilliant but is fairly consistent, Ed Curnow will need to do better than last game where he was beaten by M. Crouch...Neale is a lot more slippery and will be looking for Brownlow votes to wrap it up..
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on September 19, 2020, 01:12:11 pm
Polson and Plowman down back....with Zorko, Cameron, Rayner.....this has got bad news written all over it.

The Lions are better than us on every line, which goes some way to explaining our respective ladder positions. I agree with you - Polson will in all likelihood struggle against Rayner and Cameron, but for now he's our best option IMO.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: shawny on September 19, 2020, 03:55:49 pm
The Lions are better than us on every line, which goes some way to explaining our respective ladder positions. I agree with you - Polson will in all likelihood struggle against Rayner and Cameron, but for now he's our best option IMO.

If he is our best option we are miles off it.
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: laj on September 19, 2020, 04:06:41 pm
Delete....wrong spot!
Title: Re: Pre Game Prognostications: AFL 2020 Rd 18: Carlton vs Brisbane
Post by: PaulP on September 19, 2020, 04:30:32 pm
If he is our best option we are miles off it.

Yes, clearly he will be out of his depth, and I accept it has the potential to turn real ugly real quickly. But you'd be hard pressed to find an AFL small defender that is a genuine, equal match up for Cameron. He's elite for good reason.