Carlton Supporters Club

Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: crashlander on March 25, 2021, 10:09:25 am

Title: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: crashlander on March 25, 2021, 10:09:25 am
And the winner is .......
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Slowhand on March 25, 2021, 10:06:29 pm
NOT FARKEN US..

Need some new blood next week...
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: madbluboy on March 25, 2021, 10:09:48 pm
Carlton left the field for the Pratt cup. Jeesus
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 25, 2021, 10:12:13 pm
0-2 Hmmm, where have I seen that before
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 25, 2021, 10:13:25 pm
I, and many others, clearly underestimated the Pies, and possibly overestimated the Blues. Their superior class and experience won the day. We're back in honourable loss territory. And some of our blokes had shockers. I can't figure out what Teague is trying to do.

The commentators made a point about the new rules and Cripps. What do we do with the best contested player in the league, when the rules make the game much less contested ? Clearly both the club and Cripps are trying to figure it out, because tonight he looked all at sea.

And I don't care what anyone says, the form of too many of our blokes was better under Bolton than Teague.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: cookie2 on March 25, 2021, 10:13:50 pm
0-2-Joy NOT !!
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 25, 2021, 10:19:13 pm
As if it couldn't get any worse. Josh Frydenberg has been named as Carlton's No1 ticket holder.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: cookie2 on March 25, 2021, 10:22:06 pm
At least I can relax a bit now - I have no more real expectations left, we a nowhere near it. I can yet again fall back to academic interest only!  ::)  >:(
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: sydneybluesfan on March 25, 2021, 10:29:26 pm
Yep same here. It took a full 7 days and 3 hours to be cruelly reminded that nothing changes when it comes to this football team.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: madbluboy on March 25, 2021, 10:32:41 pm
As if it couldn't get any worse. Josh Frydenberg has been named as Carlton's No1 ticket holder.

He's better than scomo
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: capcom on March 25, 2021, 10:34:02 pm
As if it couldn't get any worse. Josh Frydenberg has been named as Carlton's No1 ticket holder.

So was Malcolm Fraser ... so what?
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: sydneybluesfan on March 25, 2021, 10:38:28 pm
5 goals in the second half both weeks, and zero goals in the final 12 minutes both weeks when the game was there to be won. Absolutely smashed in the time in possession stats both last quarters. Our fittest and hardest working player all game is our youngest player. As a coaching and playing group it is completely unacceptable to not be able to run out games so consistently at this level.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 25, 2021, 10:39:47 pm
5 goals in the second half both weeks, and zero goals in the final 12 minutes both weeks when the game was there to be won. Absolutely smashed in the time in possession stats both last quarters. Our fittest and hardest working player all game is our youngest player. As a coaching and playing group it is completely unacceptable to not be able to run out games so consistently at this level.
Isnt that Russell's job to get our blokes fitter?
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Spanner on March 25, 2021, 10:43:20 pm
Hey, how's Murphy going?
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Lods on March 25, 2021, 10:43:53 pm
I found this a really confusing game.

I think that's reinforced by some of the different opinions of where things went wrong and individual player performance.

At times we looked to be well on top but the game always had a bit of an inevitability (in Collingwood's favour) about it...much like the Richmond game last week.

I have a feeling we didn't turn up to play with any intensity at the start.
Players may have thought we did alright against Richmond and Collingwood were pretty poor in round 1 so we should have them covered....dangerous thinking if that was the case.

As mentioned, Cripps seems to be struggling a bit with the more open way the game is being played...but there looked to be something else lacking tonight in terms of confidence going for the ball. Dropped an easy chest mark and looked to be favouring an arm at one stage.

Lost count of the times a number of our players slipped over and took themselves out of contests at critical times.

It's not the end of the world but we need to get back on track pretty quick or we'll have another wasted season.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Lods on March 25, 2021, 10:46:26 pm
So was Malcolm Fraser ... so what?

And Ming too...It's a tradition. ;D
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Macca37 on March 25, 2021, 10:52:12 pm
So after 2 rounds in 2021 we are in the same position we have been for umpteen years: we have a list that is not good enough.

Too few players have the necessary skills to make a difference and we have too many C graders posing as B graders.  When the going gets tough they go missing.

As Jack Dyer said " you can't pull your socks up if you're not wearing any."

I feel sorry for Teague. 
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: rocky on March 25, 2021, 10:53:44 pm
Absolutely gutted by that p!$$-weak performance. 0-2 for 9 years in a row and counting. Never looked like winning. Another year of woe if we keep dishing that up. Totally cr@p. Only positive is there are plenty of knobs who can be dropped.
1. Setterfield
2. Casboult
3. Murphy
4. Willo
Surely it's time to play some guys on merit rather than reputation.
Teague needs to rattle the cage.
I'm really p!$$ed off.  >:(
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: townsendcalling on March 25, 2021, 10:54:28 pm
If Curnow isn’t sent out to sit on a specific player, then he’s not in the side. Offers nothing otherwise.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 25, 2021, 10:55:14 pm
Grundy 51 Hitouts to Pittonet 21...
Our mids were ordinary..Adams and old man Pendlebury worked harder...

Williamson and Setterfield were liabilities.....need dropping
Casboult was either injured or just plain crape.
Dow probably needs more game time on ball and needs to go back to the twos.
SPS got some ball and made a couple of decent spoils.
Plowman was slaughtered...
Docherty is very iffy
Cripps was well held
Ed Curnow....did well on Adams in the 3rd quarter and gave some effort but doesnt have the class we need.
Martin....3 goals but not enough only 12 touches...
Gibbons...not bad for a VFL battler and probably our most dangerous small forward.
Fisher...ok at times but not enough...
Harry...ok but Moore was probably one of the best on the ground.
Dont know who played on Crisp but they gave it away and he just kept running..
Murphy..ok at times but not enough..
Saad....very good at both defending and attacking, ball use was also very good.
Walsh...our best mid but the bloke he played on Adams was BOG ...
Newnes....tougher night for Jack, wasnt our worst but found the pace of the game quicker this week.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: crashlander on March 25, 2021, 10:55:57 pm
I probably shouldn't be writing at the moment, because I am so filled with anger. I Should settle down and get my brain chemistry back into a better spot. However, I have things to say, and I feel I need to say them:
[1] We are not good enough. Simple as that. Nor will we be good enough until we develop something like the fanaticism towards the ball that teams like Richmond have now, and Hawthorn had a few years back. That sort of desire and will wins premierships. We have a team of good losers.
[2] Teague hasn't seemed to have developed the team at all. He is outcoached too often for my taste. He might be doing better than his predecessor, but he isn't doing the things that lead to success. Nor do the other guys appear to help. Our plan isn't working.
I do not know if he is the right man for the job. There simply isn't enough system in our style of play.
Look at Richmond, St, Kilda, West Coast: they have a system.
[3] It has been over 25 years since we last had a full list to choose from. 25 years! It is no coincidence that this, our worst patch in history, has happened in this period. You don't win game with you best cattle in the stands, and we've been trying to for an entire generation!
[4] Have we learnt the lessons Richmond has taught us about how to succeed? It appears that we have done some. Our off-field efforts are moving in the right direction. Our finances are the best they have been in years. Some things, like the Carlton Respects and such appear to be positive programs. But is that enough?
One of the things Richmond spent a lot of time and money on was emotional intelligence. They have people who thrive when the pressure is on them. We do not appear to have the same ability to perform under pressure. Have we used this criterion when selecting players? Have we invested time and effort to developing this?
I don't know, but we really need to.
We want a winning culture. What do we need to do to get one? Not what we are doing, that is clear. Our players look too happy with mediocrity.
[5] Sport's Science: I know we have spent time and money in this area and have links with LaTrobe University. That is fine, but we don't appear to be getting the rewards for this. Maybe we need more of this.
[6] We were very happy when we poached Russell from Hawthorn. But we do not appear to getting much advantage out of it as yet. Yes, we don't appear to having so many players coming back so soon and reinjuring themselves like we did not long ago, but neither are we running out games. Nor do we appear to have have the energy to run out games. We have faded each time we have played this year. That is simply unacceptable. We need that edge in fitness and we certainly show no sign of getting one yet.
[7] We've never had so many members. But will they stay the course if we keep underachieving? Should they? Having the members is fine, but if we cannot show the 'right stuff', hen they will not turn up at games. Having supporters turn out helps us to win. Being out-numbered 10 to 1 does not.

Sorry, but I had to vent. We haven't beaten Collingwood in years. We haven't beaten Richmond in years. We have Essendon's measure simply because they are crap. It is about time we do something about this! I am willing to 'stay the course' if I can see it headed somewhere. But we appear to be headed for nowhere. For the last 8 years we have lost the first 2 games. That is simply too many. We have a 10 game advantage over Collingwood at one point. Now we are behind. This is bad, too bad to allow to continue. Simple as that.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Shakin77 on March 25, 2021, 10:58:08 pm
Hey, how's Murphy going?

Plays forward pocket.   We were beaten in the contested ball.    Let's blame the small forward.     Clueless
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: capcom on March 25, 2021, 10:59:13 pm
Betts would have been better than Setterfield.  IMO

Collingwood exploited our weaknesses.  Failure to plan.  Teague owns that
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Shakin77 on March 25, 2021, 11:01:03 pm
Williamson and Setterfield were liabilities.....need dropping

Setterfield traded as an inside mid.   Finished off the season in 2020 as one of our better players.   Starts 2021 as a wing/half back.   One of the stranger moves by the Coaching Department.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 25, 2021, 11:06:40 pm
Setterfield traded as an inside mid.   Finished off the season in 2020 as one of our better players.   Starts 2021 as a wing/half back.   One of the stranger moves by the Coaching Department.
I like him as a player but he let me down last week by pulling out of a contest and is playing a soft brand of footy so I can see why he isnt being used in the middle. Agree he was recruited as an inside mid  and I would have expected him to start there this season to relieve Cripps. Williams has probably taken his role, thought he started well then faded so probably needs some more games to condition himself. Probably got lucky they didnt have Treloar tonight.....
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 25, 2021, 11:07:42 pm
So after 2 rounds in 2021 we are in the same position we have been for umpteen years: we have a list that is not good enough.

Too few players have the necessary skills to make a difference and we have too many C graders posing as B graders.  When the going gets tough they go missing.

As Jack Dyer said " you can't pull your socks up if you're not wearing any."

I feel sorry for Teague. 
0-2 for 9 yrs straight, we are consistent.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 25, 2021, 11:09:45 pm
0-2 for 9 yrs straight, we are consistent.
The Richmond factor....not only we lose to them but we look buggered for the next game....
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: capcom on March 25, 2021, 11:10:05 pm
Perhaps now to give Stocker a chance?
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 25, 2021, 11:17:49 pm
Absolutely gutted by that p!$$-weak performance. 0-2 for 9 years in a row and counting. Never looked like winning. Another year of woe if we keep dishing that up. Totally cr@p. Only positive is there are plenty of knobs who can be dropped.
1. Setterfield
2. Casboult
3. Murphy
4. Willo
Surely it's time to play some guys on merit rather than reputation.
Teague needs to rattle the cage.
I'm really p!$$ed off.  >:(
100% agree with those outs (except Murph, was far from our worst compared to that lot). Doc also annoying me. Was disappointed with Williams to be honest. Fog on the other hand is a gem. Saady tried very hard.
Our hit outs were (21) all by Pitto, the relief ruckman didnt lay a glove on it. Grundy had 51 but in a strange kind of way didnt seem to do much (at least thats what it looked like at the ground).
Too much left to too few, a good patch in the 3rd but second to the ball the rest of the night. Too many lazy efforts again this week also.
Utterly smashed in the middle, Adams seemed to have his own footy.
Couple of howlers by the umps for sure, I am starting to question the defensive techniques of Jones, Weiters and Plow (not as much though), they give away too many free kicks at crucial times. Quite a few were right in front of us and they were ordinary.
Onto Freo at the basketball stadium, not confident at all. Had a quick chat to Sav on the train, interestingly his son is a bluebagger. I asked him when he was going back, said he was done.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 25, 2021, 11:23:05 pm
Betts would have been better than Setterfield.  IMO

Collingwood exploited our weaknesses.  Failure to plan.  Teague owns that
I said the same to my daughter on the train ride home, they planned against way better then we planned against them.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Macca37 on March 25, 2021, 11:24:50 pm
We ran out of steam in the last quarter because we had used so much energy in the third quarter for so little reward.

Given the amount of time the ball was in our forward line in the third quarter we should have been ahead at the start of the last quarter.

As we were still behind at the beginning of the last quarter, the mental fragility of so many of our players was on show - they crumbled and that was the end for us.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 25, 2021, 11:29:25 pm
We ran out of steam in the last quarter because we had used so much energy in the third quarter for so little reward.

Given the amount of time the ball was in our forward line in the third quarter we should have been ahead at the start of the last quarter.

As we were still behind at the beginning of the last quarter, the mental fragility of so many of our players was on show - they crumbled and that was the end for us.
So much effort in that third for little reward. Their defenders were under siege and we didnt hurt them enough. We just needed one more goal in that burst and we would have been a real chance.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: RiverRat on March 25, 2021, 11:33:10 pm
Hey, how's Murphy going?

Tonight he wasn't
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: JonDorotich on March 25, 2021, 11:35:59 pm
We were slaughtered in the middle with no notable contributors outside Walsh. Cripps is badly out of form and is also moving so slowly, it appears that he’s injured again. Williams, Dow and Martin were just ok, whilst Newnes, Murphy and Curnow simply aren’t up to it and I’d replace all three with younger players like Stocker, Honey, Carroll and Cunningham. I’d stick with Setterfield for one more week and move SPS into the middle as he showed some great signs tonight.

In the ruck, whilst Pittonet is a solid emergency/second ruck, we’re officially desperate for Dekoning’s return.

And, I’m not sure if others notice it but Liam Jones is killing us in defence (two weeks in a row now) - he has minimal game sense and makes so many stupid decisions at critical times. He may take a spectacular mark every now and then, but the guy is an enormous liability and I’d be getting him out of defence asap and asking either of Mcgovern or Casboult to take his spot. That tap directly to DeGoey for goal and his continual spoiling into the corridor is a lot to take - I feel for Teague.

If we’re to ever be a threat Newnes, Curnow, Murphy, Casboult & Jones need to be replaced with much more capable players.



Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: BluesRock on March 25, 2021, 11:39:16 pm
Its inexcusable to lose against a far inferior team, but ours managed to do it.
Our inability to defend against small forwards is unbelievable, but Buckley knew this and hence he loaded up in that area. Teague was inept in stopping that rot.
Levi isn't right. O'mac should have been in the starting lineup without question, especially given his results last week.
We are 0 and 2 for something like 10 years in a row.
We cannot deliver 4 quarters of unrelenting, determined, effective football.
Teague is far too passive. His presser was a joke. He should be breathing fire, and stating without doubt, that was UNACCEPTABLE, but we get the " I believe in this group" and other meaningless platitudes . Its rubbish!
I'm just flabbergasted at this effort and result.
I love this footy club, I really do, but wow, they give me a huge test of my love, when they play like this!
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Spanner on March 25, 2021, 11:41:31 pm
Tonight he wasn't
Disappointed to hear that, he's normally killin' it with his fierce tackling and laser like delivery into the forward line. Let alone his relentless pressure and unmatched second efforts. Just the complete footballer and would make Byron Pickett crap himself with his attack on the ball... Ahhh, the wonderful memories he's provided the club...
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 25, 2021, 11:42:30 pm
Its inexcusable to lose against a far inferior team, but ours managed to do it.
I'm not sure where this is coming from, the media has blown smoke up the ar5e of footy fans about the Filth being on the slide and the fans have sucked it up like a fresh breeze of Frankincense.

The Filth aren't as bad as the media make out, and with good fortune they will be in and around the finals again.

This result was writ large way before the first bounce, nothing that happened tonight was surprise, it's a tell and a dose of reality.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 25, 2021, 11:48:08 pm
I'm not sure where this from, the media has blown smoke up the ar5e of footy fans and they sucked it up like a fresh breeze of Frankincense. The Filth aren't as bad as the media make out, and with good fortune they will be in and around the finals again.

This result was writ large way before the first bounce, nothing that happened tonight was surprise, it's a tell and a dose of reality.
They are ok when their good players play well, most of them were on tonight. Thought their leaders rose to the challenge better than ours, Pendlebury, Adams plus Moore has developed into a leader down back. Cripps and Docherty were average and ineffective as players and leaders IMO.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: RiverRat on March 25, 2021, 11:51:29 pm
move SPS into the middle as he showed some great signs tonight.


SPS showed the desperation and intensity that was missing last week (and in most of his games) but he has done so before, only to fall back into old traits after a week or two. Nevertheless, I think he has more to offer between half forward and the midfield.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: shawny on March 26, 2021, 12:00:52 am
Doc was interviewed before the game and said they focused this week on there own game and did a lot less on the opposition.  Well it showed.

Midfield was slaughtered again. After 5 years into a rebuild If Cripps is contained it’s still game over.

I copped a lot of crap for how critical I was on SOS inability to get ready made support in the middle. We had Ed, setterfield and Dow all together in the middle in the last. That’s a VFL standard midfield when the game is still winnable.

We are still a shallow midfield and will be unable to mix it for a full game with any one except a bottom team.  Williams will be good but he wont be the answer without more support and good luck hoping Dow LOB setterfield or Kennedy filling the void.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: tonyo on March 26, 2021, 12:22:23 am
Our skills are just not up to top flight standard.  The clear difference tonight was that the Pies hit the vast majority of their targets, while we sprayed it all over the place. 

Most disappointingly, we are just not hard enough at it - second to the hard ball, half-baked tackles, and turnovers.  Our midfield provides little or no defence, which makes life very hard in our back half.

Forget the score, we got owned tonight.   Their run through the middle chopped us up, which is why so many of their goals came from easy marks inside 50.

I fear we are not much better than last year...... if not slightly less so
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: BluesRock on March 26, 2021, 12:48:43 am
I'm not sure where this is coming 9from, the media has blown smoke up the ar5e of footy fans about the Filth being on the slide and the fans have sucked it up like a fresh breeze of Frankincense.

The Filth aren't as bad as the media make out, and with good fortune they will be in and around the finals again.

This result was writ large way before the first bounce, nothing that happened tonight was surprise, it's a tell and a dose of reality.

It's not coming from the media. It's coming from the fact the Magpies, are on exposed form a far more ordinary team, admittedly, based on their last game but that's all we have to judge on for this season. There are other facts in my post which u don't acknowledge  or provide a view on. I'm not sure why?
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: flyboy77 on March 26, 2021, 01:09:04 am
Our skills are just not up to top flight standard.  The clear difference tonight was that the Pies hit the vast majority of their targets, while we sprayed it all over the place. 

Most disappointingly, we are just not hard enough at it - second to the hard ball, half-baked tackles, and turnovers.  Our midfield provides little or no defence, which makes life very hard in our back half.

Forget the score, we got owned tonight.   Their run through the middle chopped us up, which is why so many of their goals came from easy marks inside 50.

I fear we are not much better than last year...... if not slightly less so

Nothing to do with skill.
All about effort.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: spf on March 26, 2021, 03:18:25 am
So were they right?

https://youtu.be/-1u84-JkRXA
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 26, 2021, 06:50:20 am
Call it conditioning, call it frustration, I woke up this morning feeling that we are just not that good. Just to the left of me in the stands last night were:
Betts
Gov
Jack S
Matty C
Nick Newman
plus all the youngies
Would any of them have made a difference last night? Doubt it.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2021, 07:18:29 am
I'm not sure where this is coming from, the media has blown smoke up the ar5e of footy fans about the Filth being on the slide and the fans have sucked it up like a fresh breeze of Frankincense.

The Filth aren't as bad as the media make out, and with good fortune they will be in and around the finals again.

This result was writ large way before the first bounce, nothing that happened tonight was surprise, it's a tell and a dose of reality.

Yes, I agree, and I was one of those fans. Even on paper their list is better than ours. CFC fans, players and the club itself got a reality check tonight. Not sure what I was thinking...............
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 26, 2021, 07:53:36 am
It's not coming from the media. It's coming from the fact the Magpies, are on exposed form a far more ordinary team, admittedly, based on their last game but that's all we have to judge on for this season. There are other facts in my post which u don't acknowledge  or provide a view on. I'm not sure why?
@BluesRock‍  This was Rnd 2, the reality is one game is not really exposed form, and those good players do not lose what they know and do overnight? :o

They are a hard running, heavy bodied, fast (excluding Pendles) midfield, that puts us to the sword regularly even when we defeat them. Now to make things worse we are weakened in the ruck department.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 26, 2021, 08:20:19 am
Yes, I agree, and I was one of those fans. Even on paper their list is better than ours. CFC fans, players and the club itself got a reality check tonight. Not sure what I was thinking...............
This season, with the 6-6-6, Stand and lowered rotations, has made results dependant on the ruck dominance more than ever before, taps to advantage, with repeat efforts, tackles and shepherds matter more than ever. It might not be the main scoring cycle, but the tit for tat stops you making up ground once you've lost the centre break.

I hardly saw us lay a shepherd last night, the Filth laid plenty, not just Grundy but their whole team was invested in buying each other time and space! I watched plenty of Filth run right past one Carlton player unhindered to pressure or tackle another Carlton player. It's not even kiddy football standard! Fans get too obsessed with first hands on the ball, not that we got that either, but it's the little stuff that matters.

Give Grundy a clear tap and it's hitting a running Filth player on the chest more often than not, Pittonet's very same efforts are more likely to go 50/50 and it hurts us significantly! Don't get me wrong, Pittonet is a great 2nd Ruck option, far better than Levi, but if we are dependant on Pittonet to get us momentum we're in for a world of pain.

Again tonight we had Levi and Big H dropping relatively easy marks from front position, it's like they are greased up, having your KPF do that kills confidence and momentum, it's not just that one effort that is lost! Put our KPFs one out against a small defender and they are 50/50 at best, Mihochek or De Goey one out against our small defenders win 10/10. It's not the defenders that are the problem, it's our KPFs, Big H and Levi should dominate opponents 15cm shorter.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: cookie2 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:13 am
In short, we don't seem to be getting any better. 😳
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 26, 2021, 08:34:58 am
So were they right?

https://youtu.be/-1u84-JkRXA

Yep. And you could clearly see that Ross Lyon wanted to see us win... he was barracking! But he couldn't bring himself to select us to win. Often I don't get the criticisms of Lyon, he is an excellent student of the game and I wouldn't mind him mentoring our coaching group. He might be just the person to wake them up, and give them some new ideas or simply how to tweak, strategically, to get the best out of this group.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: BluePhantom on March 26, 2021, 08:55:36 am
We can get the ball in our hands, it's obvious because we get more inside 50's.
But we have for a looong time now and will continue to do so is bomb the ball in.
This bomb and hope thing is useless. We always seem to bomb it on top of our forwards head, never to advantage.
The filth showed us how to do it last night, forward setup running in patterns and away from each other.
The midfield / backs spotting up the forwards and honouring the lead. Their foot skills are way superior to us.
Williams, Saad and Martin are our accurate kickers, all coming from other clubs which suggests we are doing something wrong about kicking skills.
Who is our forward coach? who is our midfield coach? who is our back coach? who is our rucks coach? Therefore what does our main coach do???? And what do they do all summer???
Doing the same thing over and over again hoping for something different to happen??
That probably says more about us supporters (becoming more like casual observers) than the coaching staff  ::)

PS: Congratulations to the Carlton PR staff for sucking us in for another year of pain. They are the only ones who do their job well.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 26, 2021, 08:57:33 am
This season, with the 6-6-6, Stand and lowered rotations, has made results dependant on the ruck dominance more than ever before, taps to advantage, with repeat efforts, tackles and shepherds matter more than ever. It might not be the main scoring cycle, but the tit for tat stops you making up ground once you've lost the centre break.

I hardly saw us lay a shepherd last night, the Filth laid plenty, not just Grundy but their whole team was invested in buying each other time and space! I watched plenty of Filth run right past one Carlton player unhindered to pressure or tackle another Carlton player. It's not even kiddy football standard! Fans get too obsessed with first hands on the ball, not that we got that either, but it's the little stuff that matters.

Give Grundy a clear tap and it's hitting a running Filth player on the chest more often than not, Pittonet's very same efforts are more likely to go 50/50 and it hurts us significantly! Don't get me wrong, Pittonet is a great 2nd Ruck option, far better than Levi, but if we are dependant on Pittonet to get us momentum we're in for a world of pain.

Again tonight we had Levi and Big H dropping relatively easy marks from front position, it's like they are greased up, having your KPF do that kills confidence and momentum, it's not just that one effort that is lost! Put our KPFs one out against a small defender and they are 50/50 at best, Mihochek or De Goey one out against our small defenders win 10/10. It's not the defenders that are the problem, it's our KPFs, Big H and Levi should dominate opponents 15cm shorter.
I think if you are looking at outmarking the Collingwood defense that's your first mistake.
You won't be taking too many marks vs Moore, Roughead and Howe and the delivery has to be first rate. Your small forwards become more important and stopping easy defensive marks and getting the ball on the deck for Martin, Gibbons, etc is what we needed more of.
DeGoey ballsed up our defense because only Jones can play on him and we need him to play on Mihocek or the tall Cox.
Elliott has to also be viewed as a marking target and again its hard to find a match up.
Plowman had a shocker and when you add Williamson who was also poor we didn't have enough of the right type of defenders.
Docherty is also iffy vs marking players and we got lucky Elliott went off.
We had too many players down and the coaching box also had a poor night.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Professer E on March 26, 2021, 09:00:11 am
Alarming pattern forming here...

0-2, meaning <5% chance of finals.

Coaching group showing themselves to be,  amateurs for want of a better word.   Not learning,  not doing enough scouting of opposition sides and key players.   Unresponsive on game day,  not proactive.   Like a VFL outfit if you ask me.   Surely the acid is coming for Teague,  and after displays like last night - he's bringing it on himself.

The same group of players making the same mistakes.   One bad game is human,  but two bad ones in a row is a trend.  Both the playing list and the coaches have serious issues here.

The mental and physical softness is alarming for a professional sport.  Not AFL standard.

Rocking up 'not ready to play' and second to the ball is inexcusable.  Another poor start resulted.

Didn't run the game out - again inexcusable - why? WTF is Russell doing?

Some examples of issues:

Playing blokes that are injured (Casboult)
 because more vaunted blokes are unavailable is inexcusable (MacG etc), this is what McDonald was signed for.   Dumb from both player and MC.

Blokes going on a season too long - Murphy case in point (note how his handballs always put the receiving player under the pump ?).

Blokes simply not giving us anything,  and been that way for an extended period.  Why aren't they getting better,  mitigating weaknesses?  WHY?

Ed Curow, hardest trier I've ever seen,  but if he can't tag effectively, why is he out there?

Williamson... Traffic cone ATM.    So why play him?   Liability.

Setterfield.... Slow and $@/!OMG soft.   We went hard to get this bloke,  and he serves up this tripe!?! Really? Liability.

Why is Docherty so shaky around the pill,  when he was AA? Another liability,  and he's captain for FFS.

Time to pension these blokes off and try somebody else.   There's plenty of talented,  hungry kids in the twos.

We've got deep,  systemic issues that are already bare to the world.   This is a club well and truly at the crossroads, this coach and list has failed and another reset is required.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 26, 2021, 09:02:47 am
Mid possies, Cripps 21, Williams 20 and Martin 12....you won't beat many teams with those numbers, only Walsh delivered and is now our premier midfielder.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: flyboy77 on March 26, 2021, 09:03:30 am
Call it conditioning, call it frustration, I woke up this morning feeling that we are just not that good. Just to the left of me in the stands last night were:
Betts
Gov
Jack S
Matty C
Nick Newman
plus all the youngies
Would any of them have made a difference last night? Doubt it.

Betts should have played.

Matt C., Matt Kennedy and Liam Stocker all have plenty of ticker and that's what we lacked out there last night.

Starting with our Captains, Cripps in particular.

Does he want to be at Carlton? He looks listless....
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Professer E on March 26, 2021, 09:07:22 am
IMO,  Cripps is a goner,  and I can see why.

We're not getting better,  we're irrelevant.

We're years behind in game style and how to structure a style to actually win games,  we play footy likes is 20 years ago.   It's obsolete methodology.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 26, 2021, 09:08:34 am
Yep. And you could clearly see that Ross Lyon wanted to see us win... he was barracking! But he couldn't bring himself to select us to win. Often I don't get the criticisms of Lyon, he is an excellent student of the game and I wouldn't mind him mentoring our coaching group. He might be just the person to wake them up, and give them some new ideas or simply how to tweak, strategically, to get the best out of this group.
If Lyon is mentoring he might as well have the full time job...
We need new assistants, our selection and planning is horrendous.

Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Milhanna13 on March 26, 2021, 09:09:04 am
Our skills are just not up to top flight standard.  The clear difference tonight was that the Pies hit the vast majority of their targets, while we sprayed it all over the place. 

Forget the score, we got owned tonight.   Their run through the middle chopped us up, which is why so many of their goals came from easy marks inside 50.


This was really evident at the ground. Every time they broke free, they seemed to link up really well.  Whereas, we would fumble or slip over(!!) or just miss a target

PS - to all those including Doc in the shockers, I thought he showed signs of a return to form.  There was one out on the full, but aside from that he looked pretty solid

The effectiveness inside 50 killed us - esp in the 3rd quarter.  Moore outpointed H a number of times (yet H still kicked 4 - which is a good sign).  But, there also seemed to be a different set of rules applied to H as was applied to Cox and a few others......
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: BluePhantom on March 26, 2021, 09:09:43 am
IMO,  Cripps is a goner,  and I can see why.

We're not getting better,  we're irrelevant.

We're years behind in game style and how to structure a style to actually win games,  we play footy likes is 20 years ago.   It's obsolete methodology.
Enter Clarkson!
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 26, 2021, 09:13:36 am
The game is quicker especially with no moving man on the mark anymore and everyone playing on and Cripps can't keep up after the stoppage. He can't chase and looks stuffed late in the game..
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Raydan on March 26, 2021, 09:29:56 am
Call it conditioning, call it frustration, I woke up this morning feeling that we are just not that good. Just to the left of me in the stands last night were:
Betts
Gov
Jack S
Matty C
Nick Newman
plus all the youngies
Would any of them have made a difference last night? Doubt it.

Last night Charlie makes a difference and TDK makes a difference.

Would a healthy Marchbank make a difference? I doubt he'd be tight or strong enough on DeGoey.

Would Newman make a difference if he were to replace Williamson, I'd say yes. A steadier head and a ground ball winner.

Could you put a McGovern down back and say man up DeGoey? Has the burst speed, jump and size, but does he have the mind set.

I'm with you we're not that good, our list is just middle of the road. I remember SOS saying it's easy to get a list to finish 8th, I call BS, cause we can't even make that.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 26, 2021, 09:36:57 am
I mentioned before the game that I was confident we had them covered, man for man. I also said I was concerned more about the battle between coaching boxes.

We were pretty soundly beaten in the coaching box. Just look at how they started the game - well prepared - came out fired up, ready for action, confident and bold. We were reactionary, much like our coaching at present. Much like our coaching last year.

As for my confidence with having them covered man for man, I didn't factor in:
Willo being a shadow of the bold, aggressive kid we saw a while back who'd take the game on.
Crippa playing without confidence and consequently dropping easy marks and fumbling too often.
Ed fumbling too often.
Murphy fumbling... though you couldn't question his effort and having some good moments (sound familiar? Sound like the entire side? We are becoming the Cameo Kings - we play some really pretty footy at times, brilliant stuff, teasing stuff).
Casboult clearly underdone, lacking confidence, 2nd guessing himself - a liability.
Setterfield a shadow of himself which is a pity because his hands and vision are an incredible asset.
Zachery looks much better around the ball/midfield than small forward.

Comments from coaching that our focus before the game was on our game - well, I was speechless hearing this. If I may indulge for a moment... one of the very first things I learned in the military is that when you're engaged in combat... KNOW YOUR ENEMY, and always expect their very best, then plan accordingly. To not do so spanks of arrogance, and invites trouble.

Boldness is needed at the selection table, where we've been too coy & conservative. We too often reward ordinary efforts or worse with games based on, I assume, reputation and prayer!

The TT and his coaching group look a little like Thomas The Tank Engine and crew at the present... in fact, we seem to have picked up from where we left off at the end of last year.

Let's see if we have what it takes to change course from Cameo Kings, pretty and nice to something resembling a smart, confident ruthless group who can crush an opposition, after addressing and dismantling their strengths, and this is up to the coaching group in no small way... it's called, preparation. The next few weeks will tell, because, if you look over there with his arm in the air you'll see Ross Lyon... wanting to help the club he barracked for (and still does, I am sure) as a kid.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: flyboy77 on March 26, 2021, 09:59:00 am
I was at the game (unfortunately).

We got smashed out of the guts from the get go.

My question, for those who saw the big picture - did Teague try and change anything to stop the bleeding?

To me, nothing changed.

And we were oh so predictable (and slow to move the ball forward).

Pies came to play, we didn't.

Some  'big name' players need to be playing in the magoos next weekend.

That effort last night was worse than unacceptable - and our leaders need to stand up and step up.

Has Cripps already gone (to WCE) mentally?

He's a shadow of his 2019 self.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Professer E on March 26, 2021, 10:24:52 am
Yep,  messages need to be sent, the lack commitment to the contest/game, and repeat mistakes must be addressed immediately.

I don't know who is available but I'd be impressing upon Casboult,  Murphy,  Curnow, Docherty, Setterfield and Williamson (among others)  that's they aren't assured of a spot next week.

Surely it's time for Stocker, mad dog Matt and Kennedy to get a run?
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 26, 2021, 11:01:08 am
I think under these rules our biggest worries are our biggest players, Big H, Levi, Jones and Pittonet.

I understand Pittonet and Levi struggling, they aren't blessed with pace. Oddly, I though for their size the extra pace and run would have suited Jones and Big H, but the very opposite is occurring. Last night I though Mihocek, Roughead and Cox looked far better on the repeat efforts than our KPPs, Moore was at another level altogether!

I thought Weitering showed he is capable of the next level, he was all over the ground and looked as comfortable as can be expected. But he lacked support last night, the kid can't be everywhere and players like Jones and Plowman having Barry Crockers and fumbling around him can kill confidence. Plowman improved late, but too late, I think he's wasted on players his own size because he plays quite tall and is best when intercepting.

I can't say we've got any KPPs that are great in the one on one stuff at the moment, I feel under the new rules this is exactly what we and all teams need, because that contested one on one mark when you are under the pump is the circuit breaker. Instead we have midgets manhandling our monsters.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: JonDorotich on March 26, 2021, 11:22:18 am
I think under these rules our biggest worries are our biggest players, Big H, Levi, Jones and Pittonet.

I understand Pittonet and Levi struggling, they aren't blessed with pace. Oddly, I though for their size the extra pace and run would have suited Jones and Big H, but the very opposite is occurring. Last night I though Mihocek, Roughead and Cox looked far better on the repeat efforts than our KPPs, Moore was at another level altogether!

I thought Weitering showed he is capable of the next level, he was all over the ground and looked as comfortable as can be expected. But he lacked support last night, the kid can't be everywhere and players like Jones and Plowman having Barry Crockers and fumbling around him can kill confidence. Plowman improved late, but too late, I think he's wasted on players his own size because he plays quite tall and is best when intercepting.

I can't say we've got any KPPs that are great in the one on one stuff at the moment, I feel under the new rules this is exactly what we and all teams need, because that contested one on one mark when you are under the pump is the circuit breaker. Instead we have midgets manhandling our monsters.

Think you’re right LP

Pitt, Levi, Jones & Plow were badly exposed last night, but so too were all mids ex Walsh

Increasingly as the need to maintain and shift structure increases, those players with game sense/intelligence will be more important - Jones, Levi and to lesser extent Plow lack this.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: 31Tommys_barber on March 26, 2021, 11:27:08 am
We are trying to play a game style that is not sustainable for the entire game with constant fast play on. Towards the end of each quarter we get cheap goals against us that slowly add up. We then have to play catch up and spend all the petrol tickets getting back even early each period only for the better teams to skip away again in time on.
We need to tempo the game better when the opposition surges. We don’t seem to have any leaders or coaches that can initiate when to switch the game back a notch and catch our breath or slow the charge. I went to the Eagles v suns game last week WC sped out of the gate but then the suns slowed it down kept possession and stopped the haemorrhage and worked back into the game against a better team. We can’t do this and it’s cost us two games so far.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 26, 2021, 11:30:36 am
Pitt, Levi, Jones & Plow were badly exposed last night, but so too were all mids ex Walsh
I do wonder about the flow on, when you can deal with our bigger bodies using mediums and smalls, it makes it much tougher to get the right match ups for Walsh and Cripps, but I can't blame the talls for all the problems of Walsh and Cripps last night.

I made a comment pre-game, I said I would be surprised if Walsh could maintain the Rnd 1 level of output given he's still basically a kid, I wasn't surprised to find him struggling because I think even seasoned professionals will struggle under the new rules.

Clubs will need very very deep lists and be really well "managed" by the Match Committee to get through this season with those sort of game styles.

PS; I'm not confident that the bulk of AFL coaches will think independent enough to get their head around this, they tend to mostly be sheep.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: IvanAwfulbigone on March 26, 2021, 11:34:59 am
So glad I renewed the kids and my memberships during the week 🙄

Now THAT’S the definition of insanity.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: bricky on March 26, 2021, 11:49:43 am
Watching the game on TV we did seem to chip the ball backwards and sideways from the backline quite often.
With the new stand rule going backwards should be a last resort or only if there's nothing else on offer.
From someone at the game do you think it was habit or not enough movement forward of the ball?
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: JonDorotich on March 26, 2021, 11:53:33 am
Watching the game on TV we did seem to chip the ball backwards and sideways from the backline quite often.
With the new stand rule going backwards should be a last resort or only if there's nothing else on offer.
From someone at the game do you think it was habit or not enough movement forward of the ball?
Pies well structured behind the ball and worked harder both ways and in the contest
Lots of kicking down the line
We lack courage (maybe ability) to take on the 45 degree kick to open the ground
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Mav on March 26, 2021, 12:04:43 pm
New rules perhaps work against in&under types & taggers: Cripps, Setterfield & Curnow. Not great either for burst players who need regular bench time like Betts.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: flyboy77 on March 26, 2021, 12:12:33 pm
The umps played their role against us, as usual.

There was a moment, late in Q1, when our defence tackled their guy (no holding free), the Pie player tried to kick it and missed (no incorrect disposal free), the ball dribbled out and an easy goal to the Pies.

There were 3 or 4 moments like that which all went their way.

Big H could have had half a dozen frees for holding....alas.

That's not to excuse our deplorable work rate but it must play on their minds a bit......
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2021, 12:12:46 pm
You have to feel sorry for Plowman. He's our modern day Bret Thornton. Apart from injuries, he's been a mainstay in our defence since he got here. Another whipping boy he reminds me of is Zac Dawson.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: JonDorotich on March 26, 2021, 12:19:04 pm
You have to feel sorry for Plowman. He's our modern day Bret Thornton. Apart from injuries, he's been a mainstay in our defence since he got here. Another whipping boy he reminds me of is Zac Dawson.

But Paul he makes so many poor decisions
Better than Jones but still poor

Having said all of that there’s nobody better on our list that can play the role. What would we give for a Peter Dean or  Andy McKay?
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2021, 12:23:24 pm
But Paul he makes so many poor decisions
Better than Jones but still poor

Having said all of that there’s nobody better on our list that can play the role. What would we give for a Peter Dean or  Andy McKay?

Two top 5 and one top 10 finish in our B+F in the last few years suggest the coaches rate him. I think his problem is that he's extremely gentlemanly and honest. A pure ball player, like Geoff Southby on steroids. If the opposition like to go through him, as some on here suggest, I'm guessing it's mainly because they know he won't do anything naughty. His skills, ability to read the game etc. are not really that bad.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 26, 2021, 12:24:17 pm
You have to feel sorry for Plowman. He's our modern day Bret Thornton. Apart from injuries, he's been a mainstay in our defence since he got here. Another whipping boy he reminds me of is Zac Dawson.
Yes, in general he is not as bad as fans make out but he has those moments in every game, last night I thought he had a particularly bad 1/2 and it colours opinions of him.

It's hard to separate the player from the environment though, and Plowman wasn't the only player having a very ordinary 1/2 of football.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 26, 2021, 12:29:04 pm
We can get the ball in our hands, it's obvious because we get more inside 50's.
But we have for a looong time now and will continue to do so is bomb the ball in.
This bomb and hope thing is useless. We always seem to bomb it on top of our forwards head, never to advantage.
The filth showed us how to do it last night, forward setup running in patterns and away from each other.
The midfield / backs spotting up the forwards and honouring the lead. Their foot skills are way superior to us.
Williams, Saad and Martin are our accurate kickers, all coming from other clubs which suggests we are doing something wrong about kicking skills.
Who is our forward coach? who is our midfield coach? who is our back coach? who is our rucks coach? Therefore what does our main coach do???? And what do they do all summer???
Doing the same thing over and over again hoping for something different to happen??
That probably says more about us supporters (becoming more like casual observers) than the coaching staff  ::)

PS: Congratulations to the Carlton PR staff for sucking us in for another year of pain. They are the only ones who do their job well.

Carlton may well win the footy, but the path they take to goal often resembles the path I take on a golf course. If the direct line from Tee to pin is 400m, Ill hit/walk 1200m. Im just not a good golfer. I get a lot of exercise though.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 26, 2021, 12:33:27 pm
You have to feel sorry for Plowman. He's our modern day Bret Thornton. Apart from injuries, he's been a mainstay in our defence since he got here. Another whipping boy he reminds me of is Zac Dawson.

I don't think there's a defender in the country who could've prevented some of the gifts to Plow's opponents. He was let down by players further up the ground.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2021, 12:34:54 pm
Yes, in general he is not as bad as fans make out but he has those moments in every game, last night I thought he had a particularly bad 1/2 and it colours opinions of him.

It's hard to separate the player from the environment though, and Plowman wasn't the only player having a very ordinary 1/2 of football.

DeGoey, Elliott and I think Cox as well, are not easy match ups. You won't find many defenders that can go with those blokes, especially when they're firing. Our other defenders must have a secret stash of short straws just to spite him.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2021, 12:36:03 pm
I don't think there's a defender in the country who could've prevented some of the gifts to Plow's opponents. He was let down by players further up the ground.

Yes agree. Too much of the Pies ball movement from the centre was effortless, worse than a training drill.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 26, 2021, 12:38:02 pm
Yes agree. Too much of the Pies ball movement from the centre was effortless, worse than a training drill.
Who is the midfield coach, are you detecting any long term trends?

For me the answer to this question is not about being good or bad, it's more about making a break from the past.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 26, 2021, 12:39:32 pm
I was at the game (unfortunately).

We got smashed out of the guts from the get go.

My question, for those who saw the big picture - did Teague try and change anything to stop the bleeding? Tumbleweeds.

To me, nothing changed. No argument here.

And we were oh so predictable (and slow to move the ball forward). Yep.

Pies came to play, we didn't. Spot on. Preparation.

Some  'big name' players need to be playing in the magoos next weekend. Tick.

That effort last night was worse than unacceptable - and our leaders need to stand up and step up. On-field leadership well below par.

Has Cripps already gone (to WCE) mentally? Something is certainly up with Crippa, as a number of us have noticed.

He's a shadow of his 2019 self. Absolutely.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: capcom on March 26, 2021, 12:43:39 pm
You're not gonna win a game of chess against Boris Spassky if your opponent has always been your 97 year old grandmother.  Teague fails in that regard.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2021, 12:44:11 pm
Who is the midfield coach, are you detecting any long term trends?

For me the answer to this question is not about being good or bad, it's more about making a break from the past.

I'm not sure where the problem lies (or maybe it should be problems). The killer last night was that the Pies seemed to kick easy and quick goals, but in general play, I don't think it was as one sided as many suggest. If you look at some of the numbers, they were pretty good.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 26, 2021, 12:45:04 pm
DeGoey, Elliott and I think Cox as well, are not easy match ups. You won't find many defenders that can go with those blokes, especially when they're firing. Our other defenders must have a secret stash of short straws just to spite him.
I agree, but it's not just in those contests that our players get judged.

It's dropping chest marks, fumbling pick ups in the clear, missing targets or bombing the ball mindlessly to nobody. In fairness Plowman wasn't on his own in this regard.

Can you recall what MM did to Mitch Robinson after his goal line brain fade, can imagine what he would have said / done to Jones? I suspect Jones would have been put in a taxi with a torn up contract before leaving the ground!

Can you imagine what MM would have done to Levi, Big H or Cripps after yet another uncontested chest mark hit the deck?
( For the statisticians I offer a fans perspective. Regardless of what AFL statisticians claim, a 200cm leading KPF or KPD is not in a marking contest when they are 2m or 3m ahead of an opponent and drop or take a chest mark!  Was any chest mark considered contested back in Stick's or Doull's day? )

We've done it for so long I fear it is contagious!
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: blueday on March 26, 2021, 12:45:27 pm
How depressing, I sat there with my teenage son and honestly wondered what I have got him into, he has never known a good Carlton side, frankly after the crap last night I don't think he will and I'm not confident that it will ever change.

We are seemingly incapable of developing young players, time after time good young talent arrives at our club and is slowly but surely  turned into what we see today.

We are not hard, we are not smart and we don't hate losing. Losing a contest, being beaten in the air or just being beaten in a one on one scrap, we just don't want it enough. Players with less than ten touches and no tackles, they must be dropped!

No more rebuilds, no more kids and drafts. Stand up and play, deliver now or out.

If the season does not dramatically alter, we need a fire sale approach at seasons end. Out with the promising and talented, in with hard bodies that are motivated and desperate to win.

I would much rather a team that gives 100% week in week out, craves the competition and gets done than this!

Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2021, 12:53:01 pm
I agree, but it's not just in those contests that our players get judged.

It's dropping chest marks, fumbling pick ups in the clear, missing targets or bombing the ball mindlessly to nobody. In fairness Plowman wasn't on his own in this regard.

Can you recall what MM did to Mitch Robinson after his goal line brain fade, can imagine what he would have said / done to Jones? I suspect Jones would have been put in a taxi with a torn up contract before leaving the ground!

I think the Malthouse /Jones relationship is similar to Ross Lyon / Zac Dawson. I think Mick would have roasted Liam over an outdoor fire, but I think Jones would have taken it the right way. Don't forget Mick brought him to the club.

Can I just just say, bearing in mind my perfect, unblemished record of dogged objectivity on the "coach question" it was Bolton who saved Jones career, and it was under Bolton that he played his best footy. And that goes for too many of our players - Docherty, Williamson, Dow, O'Brien, Cripps and others played better under Bolts.

Agree with the rest of your post.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 26, 2021, 12:56:13 pm
Can I just just say, bearing in mind my perfect, unblemished record of dogged objectivity on the "coach question" it was Bolton who saved Jones career, and it was under Bolton that he played his best footy.
@PaulP  I have to put forward a point of difference, it was Paul Brodie and Josh Fraser that saved Jones career.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: JonDorotich on March 26, 2021, 12:59:30 pm
Who is the midfield coach, are you detecting any long term trends?

For me the answer to this question is not about being good or bad, it's more about making a break from the past.

To this end, I watched Cripps, Newnes and Setterfield closely and all three don’t track back.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 26, 2021, 01:12:25 pm
New rules perhaps work against in&under types & taggers: Cripps, Setterfield & Curnow. Not great either for burst players who need regular bench time like Betts.
Adams seem to handle the new rules ok..
Setterfield needs to harden up and get his hands dirty, if an old slow bloke like Pendlebury can get 30 possies with 11 scoring involvements then our blokes have no excuses other than playing to a losing ruck and that's another area that needs fixing.


Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 26, 2021, 01:14:37 pm
Adams seem to handle the new rules ok..
Setterfield needs to harden up and get his hands dirty, if an old slow bloke like Pendlebury can get 30 possies with 11 scoring involvements then our blokes have no excuses other than playing to a losing ruck and that's another area that needs fixing.
In fairness to Setterfield, he was again hardly used in the midfield, it looks like he's on the outer amongst the inners.

Who is the midfield coach? @ElwoodBlues1
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 26, 2021, 01:17:09 pm
I don't think there's a defender in the country who could've prevented some of the gifts to Plow's opponents. He was let down by players further up the ground.
He is a whipping boy because his opposition are usually giving him the whipping.
I think it happens to often too ignore.. we don't have a medium defender who can take players like DeGoey.

Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: capcom on March 26, 2021, 01:24:10 pm
I think the Malthouse /Jones relationship is similar to Ross Lyon / Zac Dawson. I think Mick would have roasted Liam over an outdoor fire, but I think Jones would have taken it the right way. Don't forget Mick brought him to the club.

Can I just just say, bearing in mind my perfect, unblemished record of dogged objectivity on the "coach question" it was Bolton who saved Jones career, and it was under Bolton that he played his best footy. And that goes for too many of our players - Docherty, Williamson, Dow, O'Brien, Cripps and others played better under Bolts.

Agree with the rest of your post.

Docherty?  2 knee recos?  Talk about passing a poisoned chalice.  Hardly fair. 
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Micky0 on March 26, 2021, 01:25:32 pm
On Cripps - maybe something is going on with his GF, her insta shows she seemed to be in a treatment facility in Jan.  Caring for and worrying for a loved one is extremely taxing.  Just a thought.

But in relation to the game, FFS I am over it.  I agree, they need to get competitive, be tough.  No excuses.  We have the same rules as everyone else.  We nabbed the no 1 fitness guru - can't run out games - why not! We the members deserve some answers, watching the insipid performances, my kids put in more effort and competitiveness than these guys.  I'm sick of it.  I've been patient, but I've had enough.

As someone said previously, Saad, Williams & Martin can kick - why can't players that have been with us longer, be able to execute precise kicks.  Get the screw rid of the assistants coaches, get some screwing superior ex players and start on screwing skills.  Sick to the teeth of it, and you can bet your arse Cripps won't hang around and i won't hate him for leaving either.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Micky0 on March 26, 2021, 01:26:51 pm
And please lets not go back to pining for the days of MM, he put us back 10 bloody years!  And Bolton whilst a nice person, had no mongrel about him.  And we need it in bucketloads now!
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2021, 01:42:06 pm
Docherty?  2 knee recos?  Talk about passing a poisoned chalice.  Hardly fair. 

I'm not writing him off. But as things stand presently, after his knee problems he's had one full season (2020), and 2 full pre seasons (2019/20 and 2020/21), so it's not as if he walked out of hospital yesterday. I hope he comes good, but I can't believe I'm the only one who's worried.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: BlackRooster on March 26, 2021, 01:52:13 pm
My two cents:
We lost the game in the coaches box. I noticed (watching from home) that Pies players played on at every chance. This made our players look flat footed and our coaching panel had not answer for this. Nothing nothing at all.
In the 3rd the Pies stopped playing on and we got ourselves into the game.

A lot did go the Pies way,
when talk of Cox as a footy player is mentioned on this board, then we know things are going well for them
Jones slaps the ball out of a pack and the ball lands to De Goey. How do you defend that?? See just kept ging their way.

I think players are also being played out of position:
SPS is NOT a backman
Setterfield is NOT a wingman.
Murphy is NOT a small forward

I can keep going but worst of all I rejoined as a member today. Does that make sense

Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: laj on March 26, 2021, 02:04:50 pm
In fairness to Setterfield, he was again hardly used in the midfield, it looks like he's on the outer amongst the inners.

Who is the midfield coach? @ElwoodBlues1

like to see blokes start playing in their best positions. Setterfield into the guts, Williamson onto a wing SPS into the midfield, Murphy not as a small forward. Otherwise it's no point playing any of them as you're only going to get half the value you should.

Biggest issue is the will to win. We don't have enough of it. We match every side we play alot, top sides or not, rarely copping a hiding, but we don't win enough. We only fully commit at our choosing, not bringing it in uncompromisingly every week. we tend to often play to the other side's level, good or $hit. Sadly, it's been out culture for 20 years and takes alot of time to turn that around. We are doing way better than in 2018-19 but unless we bring that total commitment every week we'll lose games that we should be winning more often than we should. That's more frustrating than when we were $hit as we expect more.

Once again our season starts in round 3. We have the worst round 2 record ever i'm sure. Pump up, show a heap of promise in round 1, going down after a close effort, then we have a big letdown and play like crap in round 2, starting like slugs. You can imagine we'll fire up next week as we did round 3 against Geelong last year..
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 26, 2021, 02:05:25 pm
My two cents:
We lost the game in the coaches box.

Sure did.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Slowhand on March 26, 2021, 02:17:40 pm
LOOK AT BRIGHT SIDE, LAST YRS RUNNERS UP OR BRIS WILL JOIN US AT 0 - 2
[/b]   :D  ;D  :D
Teague said in his presser that LOB was stiff to be left out.
Doesn't that fill you with a joyful prospect next week.

I've just  had a good look at our playing list and to be honest we havn't
got much left in the shed that are fit or match hardened.  We would all love to Have DE K or Charlie up and running but it aint gunna happen for a while.

Against the Shockers my changes are:

OUT - LEVI, Williamson, Newnes
 (should be dropped but wont be)  Plowman, Murph
INS -  Oscar, Stocker, Kennedy

Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 26, 2021, 02:20:10 pm
like to see blokes start playing in their best positions. Setterfield into the guts, Williamson onto a wing SPS into the midfield, Murphy not as a small forward. Otherwise it's no point playing any of them as you're only going to get half the value you should.
Yep, it's no coincidence when Teague got the gig it came from putting blokes back into their traditional positions.

I'm quite over the concept of the "Swiss Army Player", to me that signals a weak coaching panel!
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Lods on March 26, 2021, 02:25:21 pm
The problem probably is that there's not enough room in the 'player's best positions' to fit them all into those spots. ;)
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 26, 2021, 02:26:57 pm
The problem probably is that there's not enough room in the 'player's best positions' to fit them all into those spots. ;)
 Then just pick the best one, and put the others in the magoos until they earn a spot!
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Thryleon on March 26, 2021, 02:31:46 pm
Then just pick the best one, and put the others in the magoos until they earn a spot!

The best one changes quarter by quarter.

Its no wonder we are struggling.  We have so few strengths that when the rules change our team is disadvantaged.   Contrast that with the pies.  They have very few players that are one trick ponies like ours so when the rules change their players can adjust quicker whilst we have to turnover the other bunch of retreads.

I.e.  plowman.  In a team defense he is rolled gold.  The ball flies around so quick now team defenses are gone, and now you need blokes who are individually both able to play tall and short, are quick and agile, and use the ball well.  Plowman is a restricted type who uses his nous to play well.  In the 3rd last night he was pivotal to keeping the ball forward but when the structure ahead of the ball fell apart he went from chocolates to boiled lollies.

That was a by product of the pies switching to a more run and gun style again, but this is the game now. 

Evolve or become yesterday's hero.  You know who'd go well under the current rules?  Blokes we delisted like Nick Graham. 
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Lods on March 26, 2021, 02:42:08 pm
I've just had a look at Paddy Dow's 2019 season
Bolton was sacked after round 11.
Up until that point Dow was averaging close to 20 possessions a game
After that he struggled to reach double figures....until a bit of a flurry towards the end.
It may have been an injury but he kept playing.
Now we know that Teague made the decision to move some of the older more mature players back into their positions of strength which left some of the younger players out in the cold.
Since that 2019 season Dow has had a fight to get back in  the side.

The question has to be...Do we have too many players for certain positions at the cost of a lack of strength in other positions?
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 26, 2021, 02:43:52 pm
like to see blokes start playing in their best positions. Setterfield into the guts, Williamson onto a wing SPS into the midfield, Murphy not as a small forward. Otherwise it's no point playing any of them as you're only going to get half the value you should.

Biggest issue is the will to win. We don't have enough of it. We match every side we play alot, top sides or not, rarely copping a hiding, but we don't win enough. We only fully commit at our choosing, not bringing it in uncompromisingly every week. we tend to often play to the other side's level, good or $hit. Sadly, it's been out culture for 20 years and takes alot of time to turn that around. We are doing way better than in 2018-19 but unless we bring that total commitment every week we'll lose games that we should be winning more often than we should. That's more frustrating than when we were $hit as we expect more.

Once again our season starts in round 3. We have the worst round 2 record ever i'm sure. Pump up, show a heap of promise in round 1, going down after a close effort, then we have a big letdown and play like crap in round 2, starting like slugs. You can imagine we'll fire up next week as we did round 3 against Geelong last year..
Will to win and willingness to put the body on the line and take a hit for the team, too many blokes wanting the easy kick and refusing
to do the 1%ers. You have old blokes in Pendlebury and Sidebottom on the deck fighting for the ball and our young blokes watching waiting for the likes of Walsh to get it to them.
About 5 players need dropping so they get with the program....
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 26, 2021, 02:46:10 pm
To this end, I watched Cripps, Newnes and Setterfield closely and all three don’t track back.
Now that just MUST be under instruction for whatever whacky reason is in Teague's head. They wouldnt get a game otherwise.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 26, 2021, 02:50:05 pm
I've just had a look at Paddy Dow's 2019 season
Bolton was sacked after round 11.
Up until that point Dow was averaging close to 20 possessions a game
After that he struggled to reach double figures....until a bit of a flurry towards the end.
It may have been an injury but he kept playing.
Now we know that Teague made the decision to move some of the older more mature players back into their positions of strength which left some of the younger players out in the cold.
Since that 2019 season Dow has had a fight to get back in  the side.

The question has to be...Do we have too many players for certain positions at the cost of a lack of strength in other positions?
Too many players suited to the easy positions and not enough where we are getting beat up....
Seem to have a lot of players suited to the wing or rebounding but not enough physical types or who want to play close and defend.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2021, 02:50:17 pm
Will to win and willingness to the body on the line and take a hit for the team, too many blokes wanting the easy kick and refusing
to do the 1%ers. You have old blokes in Pendlebury and Sidebottom on the deck fighting for the ball and our young blokes watching waiting for the likes of Walsh to get it to them.
About 5 players need dropping so they get with the program....

According to the AFL website, the one percenters went our way 60/43.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: laj on March 26, 2021, 02:50:26 pm
The problem probably is that there's not enough room in the 'player's best positions' to fit them all into those spots. ;)
Have to think about leaving some out then. It's like your 6 best bats being openers then trying to slot them from 1 to 6. Doesn't work that well.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 26, 2021, 02:52:55 pm
My two cents:
We lost the game in the coaches box. I noticed (watching from home) that Pies players played on at every chance. This made our players look flat footed and our coaching panel had not answer for this. Nothing nothing at all.
In the 3rd the Pies stopped playing on and we got ourselves into the game.

A lot did go the Pies way,
when talk of Cox as a footy player is mentioned on this board, then we know things are going well for them
Jones slaps the ball out of a pack and the ball lands to De Goey. How do you defend that?? See just kept ging their way.

I think players are also being played out of position:
SPS is NOT a backman
Setterfield is NOT a wingman.
Murphy is NOT a small forward

I can keep going but worst of all I rejoined as a member today. Does that make sense


I said after the StK praccy game quick sides would trouble us. Adams, Daicos, Brown and couple of other toweled us up and made us look silly.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 26, 2021, 02:54:42 pm
According to the AFL website, the one percenters went our way 60/43.
That would be Walsh getting 59 and the rest of the team one.......I'd like to see those in isolation and draw my own conclusions and
my idea of a 1% er is probably different.
We were soft vs Richmond and same vs Collingwood
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: laj on March 26, 2021, 02:54:58 pm
Will to win and willingness to the body on the line and take a hit for the team, too many blokes wanting the easy kick and refusing
to do the 1%ers. You have old blokes in Pendlebury and Sidebottom on the deck fighting for the ball and our young blokes watching waiting for the likes of Walsh to get it to them.
About 5 players need dropping so they get with the program....

Yes, playing culture is the next thing. We need to weed out those that don't have that passion to win at all costs, rather than at their choosing, and put them in the twos. A highly committed Carlton can beat anyone. Sadly we aren't that highly committed anywhere near as often as we should be.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2021, 03:01:25 pm
That would be Walsh getting 59 and the rest of the team one.......I'd like to see those in isolation and draw my own conclusions and
my idea of a 1% er is probably different.
We were soft vs Richmond and same vs Collingwood

Walsh had 3 1%ers. Weitering had 16, Docherty 8, Jones and Pittonet 4 each.


Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 26, 2021, 03:02:30 pm
That would be Walsh getting 59 and the rest of the team one.......I'd like to see those in isolation and draw my own conclusions and
my idea of a 1% er is probably different.
We were soft vs Richmond and same vs Collingwood
I didn't see us lay a single offensive shepherd, not one block, not one uSecond of delay on a Filth opponent.

I'm not even sure you can do that by accident!
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 26, 2021, 03:06:36 pm
Yes, playing culture is the next thing. We need to weed out those that don't have that passion to win at all costs, rather than at their choosing, and put them in the twos. A highly committed Carlton can beat anyone. Sadly we aren't that highly committed anywhere near as often as we should be.
Yep, I think Teague has to set the bar this week and include some players who want it more and can inspire with an act of play and encourage others to do the same. We are lucky we play a banged up Freo with injuries to their key backs and nemesis players like Walters injured but I wouldnt let some players think they can perform vs a weak Freo and that will guarantee games to them.
I'd be bringing in the likes of Cottrell, Stocker and Kennedy and keeping them in so the other slackers learn in the twos whats required. Cotchin played in a lazy way cheating on his mates till he got told to shape up and thats how I'd be playing it with selection and expectation for our list at well.
As you suggested its probably time to return a few players to their original positions and motivate them to grasp the opportunity or learn how to in the twos.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2021, 03:08:34 pm
I didn't see us lay a single offensive shepherd, not one block, not one uSecond of delay on a Filth opponent.

I'm not even sure you can do that by accident!

If you look at another statistical category, "pressure acts", Fogarty had 22, then Walsh 21. I can't find any definitions anywhere.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 26, 2021, 03:19:19 pm
Walsh had 3 1%ers. Weitering had 16, Docherty 8, Jones and Pittonet 4 each.



Three backline players, and a badly beaten ruckman....nothing of note around the ground apart from Walsh
No forwards performing 1%ers either...
Fogarty was good and has already shown a few of his teammates how to tackle and chase in his short time at the club.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2021, 03:41:58 pm
Three backline players, and a badly beaten ruckman....nothing of note around the ground apart from Walsh
No forwards performing 1%ers either...
Fogarty was good and has already shown a few of his teammates how to tackle and chase in his short time at the club.

The breakdown for the 1%ers is similar for the Pies. Backmen near the top, mids further down. The breakdown for the pressure acts is also similar across the two teams.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2021, 03:46:46 pm
A snapshot of the stats as discussed. I couldn't get the full list for each team.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2021, 03:55:42 pm
The Pies were ahead at 1/4 time by 3 goals, and that was the margin at the end (plus 3 behinds). We gave them a fast start, and then stayed close, but couldn't bridge the gap and also couldn't finish our own good work.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: capcom on March 26, 2021, 03:57:58 pm
I'm not writing him off. But as things stand presently, after his knee problems he's had one full season (2020), and 2 full pre seasons (2019/20 and 2020/21), so it's not as if he walked out of hospital yesterday. I hope he comes good, but I can't believe I'm the only one who's worried.

But Paul, you implied he was better under Bolton (and he was) but Teague has had him for the proverbial 5 minutes. 
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2021, 04:07:30 pm
But Paul, you implied he was better under Bolton (and he was) but Teague has had him for the proverbial 5 minutes. 

I didn't just imply it, I stated it very clearly, and at this point it's true. In 2 years time, my statement may be rubbish, but not now. I guess I was really hopeful that by now he would have recaptured some of his AA form, and IMO he hasn't, which worries me. Bolton coached Doc in 44 games, Teague thus far has 18. When you add in 2 full pre seasons, I wouldn't quite call it 5 minutes, but I accept there's a way to go to catch up.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: capcom on March 26, 2021, 04:24:51 pm
OK, I'll say it again .... completely unfair to draw a comparison between a fit and firing Docherty under bolton and the half broken man Teague has inherited.  Truth be known, it's nothing to do with either coach. 
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2021, 04:30:30 pm
OK, I'll say it again .... completely unfair to draw a comparison between a fit and firing Docherty under bolton and the half broken man Teague has inherited.  Truth be known, it's nothing to do with either coach. 

My statement is true. If you think it's an unfair, unnecessary, irrelevant etc. comparison, that's your prerogative.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 26, 2021, 04:37:50 pm
Last night, all of SPS, Weitering, Murphy, Saad, Williamson, Casboult  had 6 tackles between them, a tally Grundy had on his own. Doc, Fish, Newnes and Gibbons had none. Unacceptable.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Blue Moon on March 26, 2021, 06:07:12 pm
It has taken me a little while to settle down after last night abomination. I said to my son before we went to the game, this was big for Carlton. I knew Collingwood would come out hard but I believe we had the players to win, so for |Carlton, was last night going to be different where we make a statement or were we going to meekly into the night and season, just doing enough. I keep saying winners win because they win, losers lose because they lose. Last night was a prime example of this. Collingwood's good players played well. DeGoey, Pendelbury, Moore, Adams, Grundy were huge compared to Cripps, Walsh, who had a big third quarter, McKay, who was in and out and Weitering who was solid but didn't dominate. Because their main players played well, their second and third tier players were able to play with freedom and confidence. Collingwood chased and tackled and won the hard ball while we continually trailed our opponents. Their kicking to advantage was better than ours and their teaming was far better. I made comment a few weeks ago about the continual turnover of coaches at Carlton and the starkly different playing styles they implemented means that the players have yet to ingrain the game plan into their instincts. To me, every time Collingwood got the ball loose, all their players knew exactly what to do, whereas when we get loose, the players seem to be making it up as they go along. Even the third quarter, our forward 50 was over crowded, had too many players going to the ball, hard hands, missed targets, poor option and bad skill execution. We might had we the ball in our forward fifty but their seems to be no system. and poor skills. We started the game without intent again. The lack of pressure up the ground made hitting leading targets a training drill. Plowman is a guy you can get on a lead but some of the ball coming into Collingwood's forward line was pressure less and there were no mid fielders getting back into the whole.
Williams fell over and it cost us a goal, Cripps fell over and cost us a goal, Jones gave the ball to three Collingwood players and cost us a goal. Carlton came out of defence with no pressure, kicked the ball out on the full a number of times and Docherty was the worst offender. Cripps kicked the ball to Casboult and McKay and Moore marked it in between them, which led to a goal. Why were they both standing next to one another on the fifty meter arc in the first place. The umpires crucified us as always, free kick and missed free kicks cost three or four goals and why was the mark not paid to Newnes. And skill errors! Casboult 30 meters directly in front and he kicks it out on the full. Fogarty 40 meters out and he can't make the distance. Murphy 30 meters out, on the run and can't make the distance.
I go thru all of this and I am left with the one question. How did we only lose by three goals? We were rubbish and Collingwood was very good, yet once again, we are in it with five minutes to go. We either have an enormous amount of untouched potential or Collingwood is not very good. Either way, it was a very disappointing night.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 26, 2021, 06:25:12 pm
Blue Moon, I think it's a game of moments. Take just two of those you mention and reverse them (Levi missing and Jones tapping to DeGoey) and there's a 12 point turnaround, and we lost by 21.

There's a way to go yet, which is why I predicted a 9-11 finish, but we have raw materials to work with. Marks I50 equal, won or equalled the clearances, more I50's, greater disposal efficiency. Last night wasn't great, but it's not as bad as some make out.

Look at the Pies list. Almost to a man they are older, more experienced, more hardened, more recent success, more individual and team accolades. LP was smart to not buy the hype. Some of us, including me, got sucked in bad.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: rocky on March 26, 2021, 06:28:14 pm
Have calmed down a little bit from last night but still very, very angry about another lost opportunity. Just finished watching the replay and reinforced pretty much what I thought last night. Time to be real.
Levi just did nothing and should make way for O Mac. Easy option.
Setterfield was actually worse that I thought. Just doesn't chase, refuses to take front position, doesn't go in hard enough. Well he doesn't go in at all really. Does that sound familiar?
Murphy is like a little league kid. Just gets knocked off the ball all the time. Doesn't chase hard enough, refuses to take front position, etc. etc. Absolutely a non-factor. Really, for the 2 or 3 kicks to a REAL advantage is he worth holding out someone who will al least give us a contest.
Willo I am a fan of but he is sadly out of form and needs a rocket or maybe to be played on a wing?
Jones and Plowman had very poor games partly because of the fast direct entries that were coming in and partly because they were not up to it. Jones, in particular, is creeping closer to dangerous incompetency levels.
Of the positives, thought it wasn't a bad first up for both Williams and Martin. Saad continues his good form and I liked Fogarty's efforts.
There were chances in the 3rd that could've turned the tide for us but we can't handle the pressure and continue to F@$k up, then drop the bundle when the opposition rally.
The CFC has been copping plenty of flak on callback today apparently. Rightly so I think.
I might not have calmed down as much as I thought
 :P 
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: flyboy77 on March 26, 2021, 06:40:01 pm
Well see now if Teague has any cajones.

Betts in for Murphy is an absolute no brainer.

OMac in for Levi.

Kennedy in for any number of 'mids'.....

Stocker in for Dow or Willo.

Is it time to give young Parks a run?
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Lods on March 26, 2021, 06:45:30 pm
The CFC has been copping plenty of flak on callback today apparently. Rightly so I think.
I might not have calmed down as much as I thought
 :P 


I think this one riled folks up a bit.

a) Because of course ...it was Collingwood
b) We thought we were a good chance on both club's previous week's performance
c) We  expected the addition of Williams and Martin to give us a boost....it did, but it was countered by a drop off in performance by others.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: laj on March 26, 2021, 06:47:17 pm
7News says Cripps is playing with an injured back.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 26, 2021, 06:55:32 pm
7News says Cripps is playing with an injured back.

...'back awareness' and a groin issue. Also announced that there will be a far greater emphasis on 'ruthlessness' in the playing group - how the fck do we only realise that now!!! ::)  ::)
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Lods on March 26, 2021, 06:57:58 pm
7News says Cripps is playing with an injured back.

We played him injured last year.
He won't have a long career if we keep up this nonsense.
I thought he was favouring an arm/shoulder last night.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: laj on March 26, 2021, 07:10:21 pm
...'back awareness' and a groin issue. Also announced that there will be a far greater emphasis on 'ruthlessness' in the playing group - how the fck do we only realise that now!!! ::)  ::)
Oh well, better late than never...lol.

Pretty honest feedback at the meeting today. New blokes, who have come from different cultures had plenty to say.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 26, 2021, 07:18:51 pm
Oh well, better late than never...lol.

Pretty honest feedback at the meeting today. New blokes, who have come from different cultures had plenty to say.
They'll be quickly slapped into line but the ineptness of the bulk of out group. All BS words that mean nothing to me until I see some fairdinkum, hard nosed efforts that demonstrate to me the players are saying nuffs enuff.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 26, 2021, 07:31:44 pm
Oh well, better late than never...lol.

Pretty honest feedback at the meeting today. New blokes, who have come from different cultures had plenty to say.

Good to hear, coaches take note - you're supposed to know this and instill this.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 26, 2021, 07:44:18 pm
Good to hear, coaches take note - you're supposed to know this and instill this.
Its an inditement on the club that newbies come in and read the riot act to the incumbents. At good clubs, its the other way around.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: madbluboy on March 26, 2021, 07:54:57 pm
7News says Cripps is playing with an injured back.

Why? It's round 2.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: laj on March 26, 2021, 08:08:56 pm
Why? It's round 2.

Who knows when he got sore.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: laj on March 26, 2021, 08:12:47 pm
Its an inditement on the club that newbies come in and read the riot act to the incumbents. At good clubs, its the other way around.
Let's hope it worked like when Chapman read the riot act to Geelong in 2007 when 2-3, missing finals in 2006, and similar to us in attitude. They have never looked back. Bomber nearly got the sacked after 2006. We found after that what a good coach he was. Sometimes you're at the mercy of your players.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 26, 2021, 08:22:56 pm
Let's hope it worked like when Chapman read the riot act to Geelong in 2007 when 2-3, missing finals in 2006, and similar to us in attitude. They have never looked back. Bomber nearly got the sacked after 2006. We found after that what a good coach he was. Sometimes you're at the mercy of your players.

I think if we were really honest we'd have to admit that it is only individual acts from class players that keep us in contests... we do not do it as a team. Gibbo kicks a couple of freak goals, creates something out of nothing... ditto Martin... that kind of thing keeps us in the contest. Saad dashes off half back, give us individual spark... Walsh does the supreme sacrificial and relentless stuff - keeps us in the game... and so on.

Too much left to too few too fckn often.

Glad the newbies dished out home truths to the group.

No player should get a gig on reputation. Regardless of who you are, if you aint producing... out you go, thinking of Casboult as I write that. How has he deserved a gig so far this year? But our selection committee is embarrassingly conservative... ruthlessness includes selection, coaching and on-field efforts. The President and CEO should be reading the coaching group the riot act. We just might have the worst coaching group in the caper at present... bereft of strong and uncompromising leadership, seriously bereft.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 26, 2021, 08:26:35 pm
I think if we were really honest we'd have to admit that it is only individual acts from class players that keep us in contests... we do not do it as a team. Gibbo kicks a couple of freak goals, creates something out of nothing... ditto Martin... that kind of thing keeps us in the contest. Saad dashes off half back, give us individual spark... Walsh does the supreme sacrificial and relentless stuff - keeps us in the game... and so on.

Too much left to too few to fckn often.

Glad the newbies dished out home truths to the group.

No player should get a gig on reputation. Regardless of who you are, if you aint producing... out you go, thinking of Casboult as I write that. How has he deserved a gig so far this year? But our selection committee is embarrassingly conservative... ruthlessness includes selection, coaching and on-field efforts. The President and CEO should be reading the coaching group the riot act. We just might have the worst coaching group in the caper at present... bereft of strong and uncompromising leadership, seriously bereft.
BANG!
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: BluePhantom on March 26, 2021, 08:32:24 pm
Yes, playing culture is the next thing. We need to weed out those that don't have that passion to win at all costs, rather than at their choosing, and put them in the twos. A highly committed Carlton can beat anyone. Sadly we aren't that highly committed anywhere near as often as we should be.
Weeding out players?
 How @#$$ing long have we been talking about that. We are on about our 5th generation of players.
20 yrs of players not wanting it?  I call BS.
Something at Carlton make them feel safe. Big club, great facilities, great location. They feel like they've made and can now relax. Riding on the coast tails of our history.
Put everyone on a performance based contract and watch their game improve.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Lods on March 27, 2021, 09:52:16 am
Oh well, better late than never...lol.

Pretty honest feedback at the meeting today. New blokes, who have come from different cultures had plenty to say.

If players from clubs like GWS and Gold Coast...clubs with the history of a three minute egg...are lecturing our blokes about culture we have a problem.

Hopefully it was someone like  Fogarty who was most vocal.

These types of feedbacks can be constructive but it requires a fair degree of 'give' from the players receiving the message otherwise it can cause resentment and division.

I'm not sure we have a playing group who are all on the same page.
That's understandable given the turnover and additions that have taken place in recent years.
Hopefully that rectifies itself in the months ahead.
I'm also wondering whether at the end of this season it wouldn't be a good idea to have a change from the Cripps/Docherty to a Walsh/Weitering (not in a co-captain, but a Captain/ VC situation).
That sets us up for a change to a new and possibly 10 year+ stability in leadership.
That's one element in a culture change.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: DJC on March 27, 2021, 10:02:05 am
He's better than scomo

Damning with faint praise  :)
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 27, 2021, 10:32:54 am
If players from clubs like GWS and Gold Coast...clubs with the history of a three minute egg...are lecturing our blokes about culture we have a problem.

Hopefully it was someone like  Fogarty who was most vocal.

These types of feedbacks can be constructive but it requires a fair degree of 'give' from the players receiving the message otherwise it can cause resentment and division.

I'm not sure we have a playing group who are all on the same page.
That's understandable given the turnover and additions that have taken place in recent years.
Hopefully that rectifies itself in the months ahead.
I'm also wondering whether at the end of this season it wouldn't be a good idea to have a change from the Cripps/Docherty to a Walsh/Weitering (not in a co-captain, but a Captain/ VC situation).
That sets us up for a change to a new and possibly 10 year+ stability in leadership.
That's one element in a culture change.

So many very successful organisations have a 360 degree feedback culture/policy and learn how to make it authentic/constructive/motivating and respectful... and fun. Properly facilitated by properly qualified people/organisations, 360 feedback sessions can make all the difference. Look how a powerful and constructive 360 degree feedback intervention turned both the PussyCats and Tiggers around. An incredible tool to get everyone on the same page and build a camaraderie that truly creates a team, and not a bunch of individuals or groups within groups at a club (or any organisation for that matter).

Properly facilitated 360 degree sessions can and do gradually expose hidden agendas, fears, personal issues, covert hostilities/resentments whilst also building a culture of safety and trust and profound unity - indeed, a community. Managing the confronting aspects of 360 feedback is a particular skill. Anyone can be brutal, but in my experience brutal only creates bigger problems and issues. You can be authentic, effective and honest without resorting to brutality. Poorly handled, 360 feedback can be extremely destructive and create lasting wounds... look what happened when Adelaide called in rank amateurs!
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 27, 2021, 11:56:37 am
Weeding out players?
 How @#$$ing long have we been talking about that. We are on about our 5th generation of players.
20 yrs of players not wanting it?  I call BS.
Something at Carlton make them feel safe. Big club, great facilities, great location. They feel like they've made and can now relax. Riding on the coast tails of our history.
Put everyone on a performance based contract and watch their game improve.
My mate has been saying this very thing to me for for 20 years, ad nauseam. That and the fact that our blokes lack ticker and kent.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 27, 2021, 11:58:21 am
So many very successful organisations have a 360 degree feedback culture/policy and learn how to make it authentic/constructive/motivating and respectful... and fun. Properly facilitated by properly qualified people/organisations, 360 feedback sessions can make all the difference. Look how a powerful and constructive 360 degree feedback intervention turned both the PussyCats and Tiggers around. An incredible tool to get everyone on the same page and build a camaraderie that truly creates a team, and not a bunch of individuals or groups within groups at a club (or any organisation for that matter).

Properly facilitated 360 degree sessions can and do gradually expose hidden agendas, fears, personal issues, covert hostilities/resentments whilst also building a culture of safety and trust and profound unity - indeed, a community. Managing the confronting aspects of 360 feedback is a particular skill. Anyone can be brutal, but in my experience brutal only creates bigger problems and issues. You can be authentic, effective and honest without resorting to brutality. Poorly handled, 360 feedback can be extremely destructive and create lasting wounds... look what happened when Adelaide called in rank amateurs!
We did it years ago, it didn't work (Leading Teams same as Geelong).
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 27, 2021, 12:17:10 pm
We did it years ago, it didn't work (Leading Teams same as Geelong).
If you've got a room full of old world psychopaths it's gold, but for many personalities it doesn't work.

I think the way kids are taught these days at school to identify bullies and bullying it won't work.

So we should make sure our list managers find us a couple of Bolta or Ziebell types. I think De Koning, Cotterell and Pittonet have a little bit of what we need, but beyond that the cupboard is bare!
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 27, 2021, 12:18:43 pm
We did it years ago, it didn't work (Leading Teams same as Geelong).

Glad you brought that up.

Let's put it this way... So often, it can and does come down to the skills of the individual facilitator. We didn't get the cat who worked with the PussyCats. Plenty of 360 degree programs about, but, like so many things in life... it comes down to the actual person delivering the program - shouldn't be like that, but it is a reality. Some folks have a natural talent for delivering such programs/strategies... some go by the rule book. I know who I'd rather. Plus...

...these programs are constantly evolving to suit the changing times... a lot of programs stick with the tried and true (as they see it) and fail to adapt and change to the altering, and often very individual needs, of the client(s). The approach used with the Tiggers was quite different to the PussyCats, yet there were some similar principles involved. The Tiggers included some stuff from Brene Brown, and others, which was brilliantly suited to their circumstances.

So... 360 feedback programs differ, and there aint a 'one size fits all' to suit every client(s). To be done properly, so much analysis needs be done before hand... matching needs to which program(s) suit best. To employ a program simply because it worked for xyz is just plain lazy.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 27, 2021, 12:21:40 pm
To employ a program simply because it worked for xyz is just plain lazy.
Yes, it's just more of that sheep like behaviour we see from AFL coaches and clubs I written about before.

If you can unequivocally see your club copying some other successful club, .................. sack the lot of them because they are formulaic morons!

The biggest positive move Dimma ever made was identifying and sacking a bunch of the micro-managing coaches, then putting the players led by Cotchin in charge of their own fate. Now he has a team that mostly coaches itself, which is a nightmare for most oppositions, and even worse this year now that runners have been limited.

When we see our players run into dead ends, freeze like rabbits in the headlights, and drop their heads instantly, that I believe is a sign of over-coaching, not necessarily by the head coach. It is not natural for any kid who makes it to AFL to be a quitter or to look defeated on the playing field.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 27, 2021, 12:30:27 pm
Glad you brought that up.

Let's put it this way... So often, it can and does come down to the skills of the individual facilitator. We didn't get the cat who worked with the PussyCats. Plenty of 360 degree programs about, but, like so many things in life... it comes down to the actual person delivering the program - shouldn't be like that, but it is a reality. Some folks have a natural talent for delivering such programs/strategies... some go by the rule book. I know who I'd rather. Plus...

...these programs are constantly evolving to suit the changing times... a lot of programs stick with the tried and true (as they see it) and fail to adapt and change to the altering, and often very individual needs, of the client(s). The approach used with the Tiggers was quite different to the PussyCats, yet there were some similar principles involved. The Tiggers included some stuff from Brene Brown, and others, which was brilliantly suited to their circumstances.

So... 360 feedback programs differ, and there aint a 'one size fits all' to suit every client(s). To be done properly, so much analysis needs be done before hand... matching needs to which program(s) suit best. To employ a program simply because it worked for xyz is just plain lazy.
IIRC, it was one of the founders of Leading Teams that did ours.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on March 27, 2021, 12:34:29 pm
Yes, it's just more of that sheep like behaviour we see from AFL coaches and clubs I written about before.

If you can unequivocally see your club copying some other successful club, .................. sack the lot of them because they are formulaic morons!

The biggest positive move Dimma ever made was identifying and sacking a bunch of the micro-managing coaches, then putting the players led by Cotchin in charge of their own fate. Now he has a team that mostly coaches itself, which is a nightmare for most oppositions, and even worse this year now that runners have been limited.

When we see our players run into dead ends, freeze like rabbits in the headlights, and drop their heads instantly, that I believe is a sign of over-coaching, not necessarily by the head coach. It is not natural for any kid who makes it to AFL to be a quitter or to look defeated on the playing field.
I was sure I read that Dimma himself was the micro manager and had to let go of a lot of things and hand it over to the assistants.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 27, 2021, 12:37:12 pm
Yes, it's just more of that sheep like behaviour we see from AFL coaches and clubs I written about before.

If you can unequivocally see your club copying some other successful club, .................. sack the lot of them because they are formulaic morons!

The biggest positive move Dimma ever made was identifying and sacking a bunch of the micro-managing coaches, then putting the players led by Cotchin in charge of their own fate. Now he has a team that mostly coaches itself, which is a nightmare for most oppositions, and even worse this year now that runners have been limited.

When we see our players run into dead ends, freeze like rabbits in the headlights, and drop their heads instantly, that I believe is a sign of over-coaching, not necessarily by the head coach. It is not natural for any kid who makes it to AFL to be a quitter or to look defeated on the playing field.
Some good points LP, our young players sometimes look like Robots who have been over coached.
Maybe the Bolton years of Green shoots/development failed to teach our kids about winning and how you have to fight to win and never quit. It was always about development and even Bolton in his darkest days refused to acknowledge winning was important until right at the end when it was too late. It can be hard to re program kids and you need a very strong personality coaching your club to do that IMO.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 27, 2021, 01:04:30 pm
IIRC, it was one of the founders of Leading Teams that did ours.

As I mentioned, even if you have a competent facilitator, have you done your analysis re the fit of your program to the needs of your client? Does your program need change?

Two factors at play (as I wrote of - facilitation person & program adaption to the client needs) and one without the other invites the very real risk of failure of the program. Did the client implement your program thoroughly? Did you get buy-in from the top and all stakeholders?

Too many folks think that the implementation of a program is all they need do - magic bullet thinking, even Saviour thinking... sound familiar? What about fit? What about buy in from the client at all levels? What about follow-up? What about willingness to implement? Did the client 'do the work/really commit?'

As I mentioned, for these programs to work effectively, so much analysis needs be done before, during and after. As for why it didn't work for us (and others) you'd need to look at all of the above... and more. Personally, I've had to 'clean up' after an unsuccessful 360 program (not Leading Teams) on more than one occasion.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: capcom on March 27, 2021, 01:14:12 pm
It was always about development and even Bolton in his darkest days refused to acknowledge winning was important until right at the end when it was too late.

Let's face it, Bolton had no idea.  Disastrous appointment.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 27, 2021, 03:14:31 pm
I was sure I read that Dimma himself was the micro manager and had to let go of a lot of things and hand it over to the assistants.
Partly correct, he and his assistants were micro-managers, but he didn't hand control over to assistants, he handed more of it over to the players.

If he's telling people otherwise, it's a misdirection.

In modern football the game pattern changes too quickly and too dramatically to be waiting for a message from some observer on the 3rd floor to react!

Coaches do their work pre-match, they have feck all influence on game day, if they look out coached on game day it's because they got the days and weeks before the game wrong.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: kruddler on March 28, 2021, 05:19:55 am
As I mentioned, even if you have a competent facilitator, have you done your analysis re the fit of your program to the needs of your client? Does your program need change?

Two factors at play (as I wrote of - facilitation person & program adaption to the client needs) and one without the other invites the very real risk of failure of the program. Did the client implement your program thoroughly? Did you get buy-in from the top and all stakeholders?

Too many folks think that the implementation of a program is all they need do - magic bullet thinking, even Saviour thinking... sound familiar? What about fit? What about buy in from the client at all levels? What about follow-up? What about willingness to implement? Did the client 'do the work/really commit?'

As I mentioned, for these programs to work effectively, so much analysis needs be done before, during and after. As for why it didn't work for us (and others) you'd need to look at all of the above... and more. Personally, I've had to 'clean up' after an unsuccessful 360 program (not Leading Teams) on more than one occasion.

Curious.

When was the last time one of these things actually worked in the AFL?

It was all the rage 10-15 years ago.....but the standard line of thinking nowadays is its outdated.

You stated Tigers have done it, not sure when or how often, but the implication would be it was before they started winning flags which would make it 1 team in the past 5 years that it has worked for.

We've seen Adelaide try something, clearly did more damage. Not necessarily the same thing, but it does highlight that kids nowadays are all snowflakes and are less likely to respond to this sort of thing.

Majority of coaches (if not all) nowadays are more like psychologists rather than drill sergeants.  Gone is the ranting and raving, instead replaced by calm, logic and reason. Teague fits that bill despite some pining for the alternative.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: kruddler on March 28, 2021, 05:23:40 am
Why? It's round 2.

re Cripps....
I have vague recollections of him getting cleaned up in a marking contest. May have been twice. Someone jumped into his back and some contact was made front on.

He might be playing injured, but it could be a new injury rather than him carrying one from the pre-season.
That being said, he did have something in the preseason, does anyone remember what injury Cripps had?
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Thryleon on March 28, 2021, 06:25:35 am
Cripps is getting creamed by two or more opponents in every contest.  There's only so long you can do that for before it takes a physical toll.

I like shifting him forward as a way to lengthen his career.

If playing forward is no good, perhaps we can. Shift him to defence ala kouta and then put him on ball later?
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 28, 2021, 09:04:07 am
Curious.

When was the last time one of these things actually worked in the AFL? The last time the 2007 version worked was in 2007. There's probably a very different version working at a club right now. Any decent 360 degree feedback program has undergone considerable change since inception and application in today's environment. As I said previously, the effectiveness and relevance of any 360 degree program has so many factors and considerations that have changed over time. These programs are not all the same with predictable cookie-cutter formats and cookie-cutter outcomes. If only it were that simple.

It was all the rage 10-15 years ago.....but the standard line of thinking nowadays is its outdated. The version suitable and applicable 10-15 years ago is outdated, just like your mobile phone, that's why any decent program of this nature evolves, and most credible programs have evolved, considerably. We should also remember that these programs aren't only for sporting clubs! But what the 360 degree program stands for and addresses has been around for decades, even centuries and will last as long as humans have a need for accountability, communication, empathy, unity, transparency, inspiration, camaraderie, unconditional support & encouragement, laughter and community... and so on.

You stated Tigers have done it, not sure when or how often, but the implication would be it was before they started winning flags which would make it 1 team in the past 5 years that it has worked for. I mentioned that the Tiggers used other factors as well, they molded programs to suit their needs - brilliant, bold stuff which had enormous impact... who knows, maybe it was the Brene Brown inclusion in particular that did the job... I suspect so. They raised the bar... as I mentioned previously, anyone who thinks a 360 degree feedback program is a panacea is living in la la land, it is but one tool and ever so dependent on it's facilitators, buy in from client, research, fit, what changed about it to suit the individual needs of the client... etc. etc. Sweeping statements/generalisations that 360 feedback programs are outdated or a 'be all and end all' are very simplistic and naive.

We've seen Adelaide try something, clearly did more damage. Not necessarily the same thing absolutely and completely NOT the same thing, but it does highlight that kids nowadays are all snowflakes and are less likely to respond to this sort of thing. A very unfair generalisation about today's kids, yes, too many have an 'entitlement' air about them but plenty are honest, hard working curious folks just like you and I were as kids - cut them, and they'll bleed. Just look at the work ethic of our boy Walsh. Plenty of quality young folk around today.

Majority of coaches (if not all) nowadays are more like psychologists rather than drill sergeants.  Gone is the ranting and raving, instead replaced by calm, logic and reason. Teague fits that bill despite some pining for the alternative. Sorry mate, but those statements, every sentence, are such sweeping generalisations I don't know where to start with any response... best I just leave it at that - sweeping generalisations.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: shawny on March 28, 2021, 09:35:40 am
Some good points LP, our young players sometimes look like Robots who have been over coached.
Maybe the Bolton years of Green shoots/development failed to teach our kids about winning and how you have to fight to win and never quit. It was always about development and even Bolton in his darkest days refused to acknowledge winning was important until right at the end when it was too late. It can be hard to re program kids and you need a very strong personality coaching your club to do that IMO.
Agree. In both games this season the game was winnable half way into the last quarter yet our group looked flat and as though they had already conceded the game was lost.
There was no dare no risks no energy at all.
This worried me.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: cookie2 on March 28, 2021, 09:43:40 am
I think our poblems reef back to the place where they have been for a long time now. The midfield. Unfortunately its heart, i.e. Crippa,  is not firing atm and maybe that is affecting others around him. Walsh is fighting desperately to fill the vacuum but he can't do it all and others need to also step up. Our midfield coaching group needs to lift its game also.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: shawny on March 28, 2021, 10:15:00 am
I think our poblems reef back to the place where they have been for a long time now. The midfield. Unfortunately its heart, i.e. Crippa,  is not firing atm and maybe that is affecting others around him. Walsh is fighting desperately to fill the vacuum but he can't do it all and others need to also step up. Our midfield coaching group needs to lift its game also.
Agree cookie but we have been saying this since the start of the rebuild. SOS failed in getting in ready made support for in this area imo.
Our midfield just doesn’t bat deep enough when all we have is 3 A/B graders in the starting group. The rest that roll through there are lucky to get a game imo.

Dow, LOB, Kennedy, SPS, Cunningham, setterfield and fisher were targeted originally for this area yet none delivered on what we  envisaged they would become.

If even 3 of that group developed they way they should have we would be a drastically improved team. Games are still won in the midfield and we are up against it every week. The flow on effect is the forwards get poor delivery and the defence has to cope with too much space for opposition forwards to work in as our mids are just not up it defensively.
Brisbane rebuild started after us the main defence is they got ready made mids and used the draft to top up. We did the opposite.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 28, 2021, 11:01:16 am
For all the GWS players we picked up we missed on the two that could really make a difference.
Adams and Steele are leaders and have an edge to their game....Stkilda in particular would be nothing without Steele.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: shawny on March 28, 2021, 11:28:41 am
For all the GWS players we picked up we missed on the two that could really make a difference.
Adams and Steele are leaders and have an edge to their game....Stkilda in particular would be nothing without Steele.
Add Treloar and Prestia as well.
Thing is we got the ones no one really wanted and hoped like hell they would become players.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: townsendcalling on March 28, 2021, 04:25:31 pm
re Cripps....
I have vague recollections of him getting cleaned up in a marking contest. May have been twice. Someone jumped into his back and some contact was made front on.

He might be playing injured, but it could be a new injury rather than him carrying one from the pre-season.
That being said, he did have something in the preseason, does anyone remember what injury Cripps had?

In the week between the last practice match and Round 1 he was caught leaving a radiology place but it was never reported why he was actually there. You don’t go and get an MRI because you’ve got nothing else to do.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: bignic on March 28, 2021, 04:34:35 pm
Here's a stat for all of you.
From the 2009-2014 draft picks, Patrick Cripps is the only player who remains on the CFC list.
That's 6 drafts with only one pick left to show for it. Great, isn't it.

Our recruiting has been abysmal.

Now down to tin tacks.

We have a coach who sits in the box like a stunned mullet. No passion. No nothing. When plan A, whatever that is fails, there is no plan B or C. On Thursday night, he was sitting in the box chewing on a pencil, looking like Mr.Peabody from Rocky and Bullwinkle days, if some of you are old enough to remember them.

We are getting thrashed through the mid-field. Who coaches the mid's? Barker. Why is he still there after 12 years of failure.

Unfortunately, our Coach, is a lovely bloke who is obviously allowing his innate softness, and closeness to the players, dictate who he drops, or promotes. We need a right royal piece of cr@p coaching us, who is nice to the blokes when it's the right time to be so, but a complete and utter emotionless bastard when it comes to the selection table, and calling the weak mongrels out for what they are,for their weak efforts on the field.

Our club is far too involved in do good, politically correct off field stuff, and has stopped being concerned with what actually matters to the supporters who contribute through memberships to the clubs coffers and by extension the players salaries.

And just in case someone at the joint is reading this, and doesn't understand what it is that they should really be concerned about, IT'S WINNING GAMES AND PREMIERSHIPS!!

So, a coach with any intelligence, one who places winning games and flags as THE PRIORITY, would drop Murphy in a heartbeat.
Great servant of the club, but the man is gone. His shoulders are stuffed, so he can't stick a tackle. Mind you, because of that issue, he only puts on a show that he is trying to tackle. He won't go into a pack, because he had his jaw broken years ago, and is too scared to have it happen again.
That he's a turnover merchant, is also a reason for him to be dropped, but the first two I mentioned, should be more than enough.

They are allowing their hearts to rule their heads, and our club and the success we crave, cannot afford that.

Levi, is gone.
Williamson, no right foot kicking ability, easily brushed aside, not good enough.
Ploughman, can mark, can kick well, but too easily brushed aside and is a panic merchant. We can't afford him in our side.
Setterfield. Has got ability, but they are still trying to work out where best to play him. Maybe it's the mid-field, but having said that, he has jibbed it on a number of occasions. You can't be in a team and play scared football, and not be prepared to put your body on the line. The coach should be telling him that that is required, otherwise he is of little or no value to the team.
SPS, is NOT a back man. He doesn't have the body for it. He has got silky skills and should be in the mid-field or on the forward line where I reckon he would be very dangerous.
Jones must be told to stop with the two fisted punch. He did it twice that I noted on Thursday night, when he could easily have taken the mark.

Look you have all covered the weaknesses inherent in our team. It starts at the top, and is rusted on right through the whole lot of them.
If only they all played with the passion and determination of Sam Walsh.

And that's where I come back to the coach.

I'm an old supporter. Worked it out the other day, that I have been supporting the club since 1953 when my dad bought me a jumper with Keith Warburton's number 7 on the back.

I've had a great run. Seen more flags won than a 30 year old supporter who has seen none.
I don't care about me, but I do care about those who have never had the pleasure of watching us win a premiership like I have.

So for their sakes, I want to see the coach and those who select the team be ruthless this week. Give blokes who will put in, they may not be the best players in the side, a go. Stop letting their hearts rule their heads. Go to Murphy, and say it's over mate.

They bloody well retired Kade Simpson, and he was playing ten times better at his worst, than Murphy has in the last three years at his best.

I'll cop another year of not making the 8, as long as the message gets through that you don't get a game unless you give 100% for 120 minutes, and if you get beaten, it's not because you didn't give all you had.  At least, we will have a year which we can look on with some pride that they gave their all, but were just not good enough.

Maybe the culture of tossing it in for 10 minutes every quarter and allowing the opposition to run rampant, will have gone.

And who knows, maybe we DO make the 8. Maybe, when we recruit next year, we get blokes wanting to come to the club, not because they are getting $900,000 a year for five years, but because they respect the coach and his staff, and because they respect the tough, hard, uncompromising way that the players play each and every game and they want to be part of THAT culture.

If, week after week, we just keep doing the same thing, if we just keep selecting the same duds week in week out, if the coach keeps sitting transfixed like a statue in the box, if we concentrate more on trying to be all things to all people OFF the field, rather than producing results ON the field, then we have a long, dark future ahead of us, and I am afraid that those of you born after 1990, will never enjoy that which I had the pleasure of enjoying.

Watching the team I love achieve the ultimate success of a premiership.



Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: capcom on March 28, 2021, 05:45:41 pm
There's a lot to like about that post and very few points with which I'd disagree.

Certainly Murphy should have been put out to pasture two years ago.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 28, 2021, 06:10:59 pm
There's a lot to like about that post and very few points with which I'd disagree.

Certainly Murphy should have been put out to pasture two years ago.

Agree,  gone on too long and is now being nursed in soft positions to get him through the season and to the 300 club.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: rocky on March 28, 2021, 08:10:59 pm
Great post Bignic. Some I didn't agree with but the majority was spot on.

I am a Carlton tragic and it hurts me so much to see us in this position after having so much joy over the better part of my life. Now all I want is for my kids to enjoy that euphoria but I fear that may not happen.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Micky0 on March 28, 2021, 08:32:29 pm
Agree we need some new uncompromising styles, sick of watching them run out of puff, sick of them
Not busting a gut the entire game, sick of not winning - whatever needs to be done, we need to do.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Slowhand on March 28, 2021, 08:49:04 pm
Great post Bignic, not far behind you, been a Bagger since 1960.

Grew up with Bomber Sheldon and p..ss Navy Blue. Great mares with Sammy Walsh’s dad who coaches our under 15s here at Ocean Grove..

The problems can be simply put down to the following:

RECRUITING, DEVELOPMENT AND COACHES.

I don’t care if we don’t win a game this year as long as we start to play hard, uncompromising, effort football...

MY FINAL THOUGHTS ARE ....  DO SOMETHING...
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: 31Tommys_barber on March 28, 2021, 11:33:27 pm
Great post bignic. I started in 1959 so have lived your success era, the club was meandering along in those days too until George Harris came in and we went after Barrass and became RUTHLESS bloody cold blooded mean nasty ruthless. We moved on blokes like Gordon Collis who had won a Brownlow amongst others demanded discipline of the playing group and everyone associated from the pres to the boot studded to the doorman. Even Harris got moved on.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 29, 2021, 07:51:37 am
...................................
Pretty honest feedback at the meeting today. New blokes, who have come from different cultures had plenty to say.

This isn't a shot against you, but I find this idea laughable. We've had new blokes from successful clubs before. Bolton and Russell both from Hawthorn. Liddle and Callum Moore from Richmond, Smedts and Lang from Geelong. Are these blokes mutes ? Do our blokes have short memories, such that they need constant reminding ? These new ones come in, read the riot act, and our guys all of a sudden see the light, irrespective of what has happened before ? Do these new recruits have some amazing communication skills lacking in those who came before ?

Sorry, but IMO, this is a publicity stunt.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: cookie2 on March 29, 2021, 08:01:51 am
See how they actually go from now on..........
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 29, 2021, 08:41:45 am
Here's a stat for all of you.
From the 2009-2014 draft picks, Patrick Cripps is the only player who remains on the CFC list.
That's 6 drafts with only one pick left to show for it. Great, isn't it.

Our recruiting has been abysmal.

Now down to tin tacks.

We have a coach who sits in the box like a stunned mullet. No passion. No nothing. When plan A, whatever that is fails, there is no plan B or C. On Thursday night, he was sitting in the box chewing on a pencil, looking like Mr.Peabody from Rocky and Bullwinkle days, if some of you are old enough to remember them.

We are getting thrashed through the mid-field. Who coaches the mid's? Barker. Why is he still there after 12 years of failure.

Unfortunately, our Coach, is a lovely bloke who is obviously allowing his innate softness, and closeness to the players, dictate who he drops, or promotes. We need a right royal piece of cr@p coaching us, who is nice to the blokes when it's the right time to be so, but a complete and utter emotionless bastard when it comes to the selection table, and calling the weak mongrels out for what they are,for their weak efforts on the field.

Our club is far too involved in do good, politically correct off field stuff, and has stopped being concerned with what actually matters to the supporters who contribute through memberships to the clubs coffers and by extension the players salaries.

And just in case someone at the joint is reading this, and doesn't understand what it is that they should really be concerned about, IT'S WINNING GAMES AND PREMIERSHIPS!!

So, a coach with any intelligence, one who places winning games and flags as THE PRIORITY, would drop Murphy in a heartbeat.
Great servant of the club, but the man is gone. His shoulders are stuffed, so he can't stick a tackle. Mind you, because of that issue, he only puts on a show that he is trying to tackle. He won't go into a pack, because he had his jaw broken years ago, and is too scared to have it happen again.
That he's a turnover merchant, is also a reason for him to be dropped, but the first two I mentioned, should be more than enough.

They are allowing their hearts to rule their heads, and our club and the success we crave, cannot afford that.

Levi, is gone.
Williamson, no right foot kicking ability, easily brushed aside, not good enough.
Ploughman, can mark, can kick well, but too easily brushed aside and is a panic merchant. We can't afford him in our side.
Setterfield. Has got ability, but they are still trying to work out where best to play him. Maybe it's the mid-field, but having said that, he has jibbed it on a number of occasions. You can't be in a team and play scared football, and not be prepared to put your body on the line. The coach should be telling him that that is required, otherwise he is of little or no value to the team.
SPS, is NOT a back man. He doesn't have the body for it. He has got silky skills and should be in the mid-field or on the forward line where I reckon he would be very dangerous.
Jones must be told to stop with the two fisted punch. He did it twice that I noted on Thursday night, when he could easily have taken the mark.

Look you have all covered the weaknesses inherent in our team. It starts at the top, and is rusted on right through the whole lot of them.
If only they all played with the passion and determination of Sam Walsh.

And that's where I come back to the coach.

I'm an old supporter. Worked it out the other day, that I have been supporting the club since 1953 when my dad bought me a jumper with Keith Warburton's number 7 on the back.

I've had a great run. Seen more flags won than a 30 year old supporter who has seen none.
I don't care about me, but I do care about those who have never had the pleasure of watching us win a premiership like I have.

So for their sakes, I want to see the coach and those who select the team be ruthless this week. Give blokes who will put in, they may not be the best players in the side, a go. Stop letting their hearts rule their heads. Go to Murphy, and say it's over mate.

They bloody well retired Kade Simpson, and he was playing ten times better at his worst, than Murphy has in the last three years at his best.

I'll cop another year of not making the 8, as long as the message gets through that you don't get a game unless you give 100% for 120 minutes, and if you get beaten, it's not because you didn't give all you had.  At least, we will have a year which we can look on with some pride that they gave their all, but were just not good enough.

Maybe the culture of tossing it in for 10 minutes every quarter and allowing the opposition to run rampant, will have gone.

And who knows, maybe we DO make the 8. Maybe, when we recruit next year, we get blokes wanting to come to the club, not because they are getting $900,000 a year for five years, but because they respect the coach and his staff, and because they respect the tough, hard, uncompromising way that the players play each and every game and they want to be part of THAT culture.

If, week after week, we just keep doing the same thing, if we just keep selecting the same duds week in week out, if the coach keeps sitting transfixed like a statue in the box, if we concentrate more on trying to be all things to all people OFF the field, rather than producing results ON the field, then we have a long, dark future ahead of us, and I am afraid that those of you born after 1990, will never enjoy that which I had the pleasure of enjoying.

Watching the team I love achieve the ultimate success of a premiership.

Passion. Passion. And more, passion. We hear you, Big Nic...

I wonder if our selection committee realises that when they play blokes out of loyalty or due to reputation (when their form DOES NOT warrant selection), they demotivate the place... big time, and gut those working their @rses off and performing on the track or in the Magoos.

And FFS, stop playing blokes out of position... which Big Nic also emphasized.

Same assistant coaches for years... still flabbergasted, stunned. But, hey, if you're going to 'lock in' mediocrity... keep the people who got you there and if you expect them to change... ***cough, splutter, eye-roll***.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 29, 2021, 09:12:43 am
This isn't a shot against you, but I find this idea laughable. We've had new blokes from successful clubs before. Bolton and Russell both from Hawthorn. Liddle and Callum Moore from Richmond, Smedts and Lang from Geelong. Are these blokes mutes ? Do our blokes have short memories, such that they need constant reminding ? These new ones come in, read the riot act, and our guys all of a sudden see the light, irrespective of what has happened before ? Do these new recruits have some amazing communication skills lacking in those who came before ?

Sorry, but IMO, this is a publicity stunt.

I don't think there was any suggestion of newbies and the riot act... bit of creative license there, Pauly  ;)  ;)

Maybe we believe in the 100th Monkey Effect? (Debunked, though Jung may have had a different view - collective unconscious, but that's a chat for another day).
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 29, 2021, 10:10:28 am
I don't think there was any suggestion of newbies and the riot act... bit of creative license there, Pauly  ;)  ;)

Maybe we believe in the 100th Monkey Effect? (Debunked, though Jung may have had a different view - collective unconscious, but that's a chat for another day).

In addition to the guys currently on the list and the ones I mentioned in my previous post, we have Walsh as a current player and we have Judd as a board member, both of whom know everything there is to know about work ethic etc. Now, if this 'lack of work ethic" theory is true, then either our players are deaf, or they're as thick as a 4x2. The elephant in the room, which so far as I can tell has not been mentioned, is that maybe the players gave up the chase etc. because they were stuffed, and maybe Collingwood won because they are simply a better, more experienced, more battle hardened team, and that too many of us underestimated them ?
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: dodge on March 29, 2021, 10:35:12 am
Just to add to BigNic's post.  I have compared Carlton's lists since 2015 against Richmond - just numbers, not quality of list:

Number of players since 2015:
 - Carlton 116
 - Richmond 85

Number of players still on the list since 2015:
 - Carlton 6 (Curnow E, Casboult, Jones, Murphy, Cripps, Docherty)
 - Richmond 13 (Houli, Astbury, Martin, Grimes, Soldo, Riewoldt, Castagna, McIntosh, Lambert, Vlaustin, Edwards, Cotchin, Short)

Number of players still on the list since 2018:
 - Carlton 20
 - Richmond 28
Average years on a the list:
 - Carlton 2.74
 - Richmond 3.65

Coaches:
Carlton - 4? (Malthouse, Barker, Bolton, Teague)
Richmond - 1

Greater turnover of players makes it a lot harder to recruit, as priorities about which needs are greater have to be made, or recruits need to be made equally across a number of areas - a few more 'Hail Mary' recruits are made, hoping that they work.  This is a lot harder than have a stable side and being able to easily identify recruiting needs.  The effect is a less successful side has a lot more riding on getting the recruiting (and then development) right.

A more stable club has a stronger culture and knows what it is on about.  How much easier is it for Cotchin, who has played under 1 coach, then Murphy who has played under 6 (I think) to build a relationship, trust, understanding, learn a game plan, and its tweaks and understanding what is trying to be achieved.

There was a post somewhere about SWOT, Mission Statements etc much easier in a stable environment - people laughed at Gale and Peggy when they put theirs out.  Not sure who is currently laughing.  Strength and stability matters with these.  With new administrations, ideas, paths, these become meaning less.  Richmond has known what it wanted to achieve and has gone about ruthlessy delivering.  and Mission Statements etc become corporate nonsense.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 29, 2021, 10:50:30 am
In addition to the guys currently on the list and the ones I mentioned in my previous post, we have Walsh as a current player and we have Judd as a board member, both of whom know everything there is to know about work ethic etc. Now, if this 'lack of work ethic" theory is true, then either our players are deaf, or they're as thick as a 4x2. The elephant in the room, which so far as I can tell has not been mentioned, is that maybe the players gave up the chase etc. because they were stuffed, and maybe Collingwood won because they are simply a better, more experienced, more battle hardened team, and that too many of us underestimated them ?

I don't think it's an elephant in the room, Pauly. I am very sure the entire footy world sees just how much we (and some of them/commentators) overrated ourselves/us... we started believing our own publicity/bullshizen.

In the media today, one commentator labelled us 'down hill skiers'... I'd say we are barely that. We have such an emphasis on our offensive game that we forgot (arrogance?) defense... ruthless defense, uncompromising defense.

The pendulum has swung too far the other way... under BB, too defensive (understandable - minimize damage), now... too offensive, and with that comes a psychological softness, a liking for the easy way, the path of least resistance.

It is exactly the same as last year. The only sides we beat are either in bad form or relax against us. Rottingwood relaxed in the 3rd qtr - went away from their approach and structures, they quickly fixed it and we, as per usual, wilted.

How the hell are we going to get the best out of our list when there is no emphasis on defensive pressure? Fair-dinkum, relentless pressure... and, err, that means, err... tackling! Ferocious, uncompromising tackling. We really are a one dimensional team... mmm... let me think... mmm, nuh, can't think of any premiership side, ever, who've gotten over the line without a strong defensive understanding and application.

But, hey, we're nice to watch. Really pretty. And just like a really pretty flower, as soon as a strong wind comes... the petals fall.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 29, 2021, 11:20:39 am
Not sure the Pies are that battle hardened and experienced, they have a lot of kids too.
Think we are looking for excuses again..
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 29, 2021, 11:58:58 am
Not sure the Pies are that battle hardened and experienced, they have a lot of kids too.
Think we are looking for excuses again..

Couldn't agree more. Rottingwood is nothing special. Any side applying half decent defensive pressure to us will be in with a show.

Our issues are of our own creation. Full stop.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Macca37 on March 29, 2021, 12:20:26 pm
Our abysmal recruiting over the years has left us with a list that sets a new standard for mediocrity.

We are so lacking in skills, especially foot skills, that we are forced to play a predictable game that is easily countered by the opposition.

It was on display against Collingwood.  As soon as our players tired Collingwood packed its backline and we went back to our usual style of kicking the ball long into the forward line in the hope we could somehow scrounge a goal.

We had two forwards, one being Murphy, who showed they could not make the goal line from 40 metres.

We are unable to control the tempo of a game because of poor kicking skills.  When we try to do so opposition teams sit back waiting for the inevitable turnover.

Our recruiters must see what we see as to what makes a successful list so what is their problem?

We picked Dow with the view he would slot straight into the middle, yet it was well known that he has poor disposal skills. Setterfield, amongst others falls into that category.

This century we have recruited just three players I can think of who could kick accurately, kick long, and kick with either foot - Scotland, Houlihan and Gibbs.  That is a disgracefully small number.

St Kilda got Bradley Hill.  In the first quarter of our practice match he gave a Rolls Royce performance of skills that left our players floundering.

I'm at the point of believing no coach could do much with this talentless list.



Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 29, 2021, 12:22:18 pm
Our abysmal recruiting over the years has left us with a list that sets a new standard for mediocrity.
In fairness to the recruiters, nobody knew the current rule changes were coming.

If the game was the low scoring arm wrestle from 3 seasons ago I think we'd be much better off than we are now.

Secondly, the restriction on the runners is having a massive effect on young or unstable lists, they just can't get out there often enough and fix stuff. It's played into the hands of the older more stable club lists.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: townsendcalling on March 29, 2021, 12:38:56 pm
I thought he was favouring an arm/shoulder last night.

Since when has a club reported an injury accurately!!
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 29, 2021, 12:42:58 pm
Since when has a club reported an injury accurately!!
@townsendcalling‍ 

I don't care so much about the reporting, I do care a lot about playing injured footballers no matter whether it's Joe Average or The GOAT!

As far as I know, it just never works out positively.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Milhanna13 on March 29, 2021, 01:22:29 pm
St Kilda got Bradley Hill.  In the first quarter of our practice match he gave a Rolls Royce performance of skills that left our players floundering.


My understanding (I didnt watch the game), is that Hill put on a clinic on turnover-merchantry on the weekend.... so, prob not the best example

But, yes, when Saad laced-out a few on Thurs night, a few of us were wondering the last time we actually saw that in Navy Blue!!
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: cookie2 on March 29, 2021, 02:10:28 pm
My understanding (I didnt watch the game), is that Hill put on a clinic on turnover-merchantry on the weekend.... so, prob not the best example

But, yes, when Saad laced-out a few on Thurs night, a few of us were wondering the last time we actually saw that in Navy Blue!!

Agree, Hill was very average this week.

Love Saad - he and Walsh clearly our best imo.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: WASurfer on March 29, 2021, 04:22:03 pm
Been saying it for years in these forums....we simply don't have enough blokes who you'd say are "elite" with ball in hand. Williams and Saad have probably doubled the number! You could quite easily drop half a dozen blokes from round 2 based on their first two games this year (Murphy, Setterfield, Dow, Plowman, Williamson, Casboult.....probably one or two more) but like every year for the last half a dozen or so, where's the quality to come in?

Apart from Walsh a few years ago, our recruiting has been sh#thouse. We seem to be able to identify and then draft blokes who can't kick properly. We still haven't been able to draft or recruit a designated defender who can play a lock down role on an opponent. People on here saying the days of the tagger are gone because of the rule changes.....tell that to you young O'Connor from Geelong who kept Lachie Neale to 3 first half possessions on Friday night. Ed Curnow is still the only run-with type we seem to have. We've recruited and drafted a plethora of half-backs and right now Saad is the only one who's guaranteed of getting a game.

We only have two key defenders on the list.

We have one genuine ruckman in TDK who's injured. Pittonet bangs in hard and gives it a real go but is a 2nd stringer at best.

We gave up plenty to get McGovern and into year 3, he's pretty much done nothing for us.

People are quick to bag Jack Silvagni and he might not be an A-Grader, but I'd have him in the team before most others for the chasing, tackling, smothers etc that he brings.

Freo might be without Fyfe this week along with their two best key defenders but one thing will be certain, they'll be ferocious and desperate to win. If we're not, then it's 0-3...no chance of playing finals footy (again) and another finish hovering around the bottom 5 or so....and in familiar territory with no sign of where the improvement will come from.

Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: dodge on March 29, 2021, 04:45:00 pm
According to Teague, LOB was unlucky to be dropped (for Williams or Martin) as he's been in good form...
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 29, 2021, 05:35:37 pm
According to Teague, LOB was unlucky to be dropped (for Williams or Martin) as he's been in good form...

When I heard that it took Mrs Baggers more than hour to reconfigure my body, as I fell through my own @rse.  :o  :o
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on March 29, 2021, 05:46:56 pm
Our abysmal recruiting over the years has left us with a list that sets a new standard for mediocrity.

We are so lacking in skills, especially foot skills, that we are forced to play a predictable game that is easily countered by the opposition.

It was on display against Collingwood.  As soon as our players tired Collingwood packed its backline and we went back to our usual style of kicking the ball long into the forward line in the hope we could somehow scrounge a goal.

We had two forwards, one being Murphy, who showed they could not make the goal line from 40 metres.

We are unable to control the tempo of a game because of poor kicking skills.  When we try to do so opposition teams sit back waiting for the inevitable turnover.

Our recruiters must see what we see as to what makes a successful list so what is their problem?

We picked Dow with the view he would slot straight into the middle, yet it was well known that he has poor disposal skills. Setterfield, amongst others falls into that category.

This century we have recruited just three players I can think of who could kick accurately, kick long, and kick with either foot - Scotland, Houlihan and Gibbs.  That is a disgracefully small number.

St Kilda got Bradley Hill.  In the first quarter of our practice match he gave a Rolls Royce performance of skills that left our players floundering.

I'm at the point of believing no coach could do much with this talentless list.




Some fair points Macca...the introduction of Saad has really improved delivery of the ball from half back but also shown how a really good user like Saad stands out when you put him with a team of very average kicking players who cant hit targets.
Really good players hit targets under pressure ie Saad...but a lot of our players cant hit targets even under no pressure.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: capcom on March 29, 2021, 06:01:19 pm
When I heard that it took Mrs Baggers more than hour to reconfigure my body, as I fell through my own @rse.  :o  :o

Ya see, that's what pees me off about Teague .... how can he not see what virtually everyone else can?  LOB is hopeless
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: kruddler on March 29, 2021, 07:34:30 pm
Ya see, that's what pees me off about Teague .... how can he not see what virtually everyone else can?  LOB is hopeless

Far be it from me to defend anything relating to LOB, i championed his dropping as soon as it was announced he was in the R1 team.

That being said, i wouldn't want Teague to say anything else. LOB cops plenty of whacks and his confidence would be rock bottom. What he needs is backing from his coach. Anything else and its to his, and the teams, detriment.

As long as its words, and Teague doesn't follow through by actually picking him!
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 30, 2021, 07:57:44 am
Far be it from me to defend anything relating to LOB, i championed his dropping as soon as it was announced he was in the R1 team.

That being said, i wouldn't want Teague to say anything else. LOB cops plenty of whacks and his confidence would be rock bottom. What he needs is backing from his coach. Anything else and its to his, and the teams, detriment.

As long as its words, and Teague doesn't follow through by actually picking him!
I thought Rnd 1 LOB wasn't as bad as many have made out, he made one significant clanger, but there were probably another 3 or 4 who made equally bad if not worse mistakes while contributing less than LOB.

LOB handed out a couple of hot potato passes as well, but he received some also. Ironically, you get some of the very same fans lambasting SPS for being tagged with the pill, but if he hands it off to a team-mate who gets pegged he'll be lambasted for that as well. It's a no win situation for players like LOB and SPS.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: madbluboy on March 30, 2021, 11:34:04 am
LOB was better than Murphy in rd 1.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 30, 2021, 12:51:18 pm
LOB was better than Murphy in rd 1.
Yes, quite possibly although in different roles.

Jones, Casboult, Plowman, Williamson, SPS all had shockers in my opinion, in that they either had little influence or made horrendous momentum shifting blunders.

I would rated LOB about level with Dow on the day!
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: madbluboy on March 30, 2021, 01:27:35 pm
Murphy was better in rd 2 but really he's a natural midfielder and if he's not going to play there then he should just retire.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: madbluboy on March 30, 2021, 01:40:46 pm
Was surprised to hear we had 10 more inside 50s than Collingwood.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: cookie2 on March 30, 2021, 01:46:28 pm
Was surprised to hear we had 10 more inside 50s than Collingwood.

I think many of our I50s were merely a springboard for the Pies to come back at us unfortunately.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 30, 2021, 01:49:59 pm
Was surprised to hear we had 10 more inside 50s than Collingwood.

According to the AFL website the I50's were 60-48 in our favour. The really critical one that caught my eye was the marks I50, which was 13 apiece.

Teague is going full on with an aggressive forward half, forward press game. Clearly he wants to lock it in there and boost scoring. But the balance between attack and defence is off IMO. What killed us against the Pies was those quick and easy goals against a defence not set up for that.  I hope Teague goes a little more defensive from now on, and tries to put a spare behind the ball (not at centre bounce for obvious reasons), tries some more tagging, tries something with a more defensive minded midfield.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: tonyo on March 30, 2021, 02:25:27 pm
According to the AFL website the I50's were 60-48 in our favour. The really critical one that caught my eye was the marks I50, which was 13 apiece.

Teague is going full on with an aggressive forward half, forward press game. Clearly he wants to lock it in there and boost scoring. But the balance between attack and defence is off IMO. What killed us against the Pies was those quick and easy goals against a defence not set up for that.  I hope Teague goes a little more defensive from now on, and tries to put a spare behind the ball (not at centre bounce for obvious reasons), tries some more tagging, tries something with a more defensive minded midfield.

The one saving grace this year is at least we are scoring, so we are staying in games.  I thought we played pretty poorly against Collingwood, but it was still only 8 points the difference at 3/4 time, and it was the same against the Tigers.

TBH, I think our defenders have copped a lot of unfair stick this week over getting beaten 1 on 1 - the ball was coming in at a million miles an hour with little or no pressure on the ball-deliverer.  That is not the fault of the defence.

I think we have a lot of improvement left in the tank, so all is not lost.  But until our defensive play improves (and I am talking more about forwards and midfielders here), the 'W' column will continue have a smaller number than the 'L' column.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: kruddler on March 30, 2021, 02:41:10 pm
I thought Rnd 1 LOB wasn't as bad as many have made out, he made one significant clanger, but there were probably another 3 or 4 who made equally bad if not worse mistakes while contributing less than LOB.

LOB handed out a couple of hot potato passes as well, but he received some also. Ironically, you get some of the very same fans lambasting SPS for being tagged with the pill, but if he hands it off to a team-mate who gets pegged he'll be lambasted for that as well. It's a no win situation for players like LOB and SPS.

One significant clanger? He made 3 errors in the space of 10 seconds at one point.

He did a couple of 'passable' things, but far from deserved his spot. He never should've been picked as his pre-season form was worse than R1.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 30, 2021, 02:46:34 pm
The one saving grace this year is at least we are scoring, so we are staying in games.  I thought we played pretty poorly against Collingwood, but it was still only 8 points the difference at 3/4 time, and it was the same against the Tigers.

TBH, I think our defenders have copped a lot of unfair stick this week over getting beaten 1 on 1 - the ball was coming in at a million miles an hour with little or no pressure on the ball-deliverer.  That is not the fault of the defence.

I think we have a lot of improvement left in the tank, so all is not lost.  But until our defensive play improves (and I am talking more about forwards and midfielders here), the 'W' column will continue have a smaller number than the 'L' column.

Completely agree. The back 6 have given a very good account of themselves. I know Plowman is the hated man of the moment in some quarters , but leaving such opinions aside for the minute...............

If we had Levi kick straight, the difference is 15 points. If Jones does something better than tapping it straight to deGoey (the last Collingwood player you want snapping for goal), it's 9 points. If we stopped just one of those easy goals, it's 3 points. The first 2 of these are just moments that are either in your favour or not. The last requires some structural changes, and I hope the coaches and players are up to the task.

If we won, it would have been called winning ugly, which as I understand it, is a sign of a good team - when you can win even though you're not at your best. We are without question still a work in progress, but I would be extremely reluctant to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 30, 2021, 02:58:02 pm
If we won, it would have been called winning ugly, which as I understand it, is a sign of a good team - when you can win even though you're not at your best. We are without question still a work in progress, but I would be extremely reluctant to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The Jungle drums are beating, we've heard that song before.

Rather nastily I thought, a Feral associate at work told me after Rnd 1 that Carlton got it wrong again,

"Carlton sent someone out for some Jungle Drums, and instead they can back with Bungle Bums!"
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: WASurfer on March 30, 2021, 03:04:13 pm
PP....lots of "ifs"....fact is we've been doing those things and making those mistakes/clangers consistently over quite a few years now. Under Teague there's been way too many games where we've played one shocker of a quarter and then spent the rest of a game playing catch up...occasionally pinching a game.  Our skills at critical times in games continue to let us down and we've just got too many panic merchants in the team that turn it over easily.

Yes, we were close enough in both games against Richmond and Collingwood....but the cold hard fact is we lost them both. And lose this week and go 0-3 and it's another year of not playing finals. If we continue on like this, it becomes harder to retain someone like Cripps, or to attract quality players from other clubs.....Saad and Williams would've been sold a picture of a club on the rise and a top 8 finish right on the cards.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 30, 2021, 03:15:59 pm
PP....lots of "ifs"....fact is we've been doing those things and making those mistakes/clangers consistently over quite a few years now. Under Teague there's been way too many games where we've played one shocker of a quarter and then spent the rest of a game playing catch up...occasionally pinching a game.  Our skills at critical times in games continue to let us down and we've just got too many panic merchants in the team that turn it over easily.

Yes, we were close enough in both games against Richmond and Collingwood....but the cold hard fact is we lost them both. And lose this week and go 0-3 and it's another year of not playing finals. If we continue on like this, it becomes harder to retain someone like Cripps, or to attract quality players from other clubs.....Saad and Williams would've been sold a picture of a club on the rise and a top 8 finish right on the cards.

Those are all fair points, and I certainly don't dispute any of them. But I see progress rather than stagnation, albeit slower progress than I would like. Saad and Williams are big boys and are quite capable of assessing the reality of the CFC and deciding accordingly. Blokes on AFL lists are not separated by much. Growing up together, swapping teams, analysis of opposition etc. You can easily find someone who knows about this player or that club. I think most of the guys that move willingly and have choice know what they're getting themselves into.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 30, 2021, 03:29:37 pm
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-news-2021-carlton-blues-issues-david-teague-fatigue-press-conference-david-king-defensive-effort-first-crack/news-story/7e87cbb7ab6a196a8587b67a211e0027

They certainly raise some valid points, but the thing that got me ? "Teague fatigue." lol
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 30, 2021, 04:03:25 pm
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-news-2021-carlton-blues-issues-david-teague-fatigue-press-conference-david-king-defensive-effort-first-crack/news-story/7e87cbb7ab6a196a8587b67a211e0027

They certainly raise some valid points, but the thing that got me ? "Teague fatigue." lol
King is talking from his experience, from his old days, it is almost a different game from just 2 years ago!

I'm not sure we yet have the measure of what scoring is normal under the 2021 rules, we could well see clubs kicking 150pts before season is out!

Two years ago they all complained, loudly and non-stop, how boring footy had become, the scoring problem, now they are calling for scoring restriction tactics, the over-scoring problem.

Maybe there isn't a weathervane on earth that turns as fast as an AFL specialist commentators does. Maybe what King is better at than anything else is reading fan sentiment, not unlike Kane Cornes! They might well be fully-fledge members of AFLanon!

Am I being unfair?

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ae/b8/95/aeb8956543afbe6c89634a2c54a0adde.gif)
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: tonyo on March 30, 2021, 04:18:34 pm
King is talking from his experience, from his old days, it is almost a different game from just 2 years ago!

I'm not sure we yet have the measure of what scoring is normal under the 2021 rules, we could well see clubs kicking 150pts before season is out!

Two years ago they all complained, loudly and non-stop, how boring footy had become, the scoring problem, now they are calling for scoring restriction tactics, the over-scoring problem.

Maybe there isn't a weathervane on earth that turns as fast as an AFL specialist commentators does. Maybe what King is better at than anything else is reading fan sentiment, not unlike Kane Cornes! They might well be fully-fledge members of AFLanon!

Am I being unfair?

One thing for certain, you have to score more than the opposition to win games.  If the tide is turning towards higher scores, mostly kicked by forwards, it's better that we get that right. 

I have a dream of a forward line with Curnow/McKay kicking 3-4 each, McGovern presenting up higher and feeding Fisher/Martin/Gibbons who all chip in with their share.  It's a big dream I know, but at least the building blocks are kind of there (crosses fingers).

Then we may be back to the Tommy Hafey theory - the opposition may kick 13 or 14 goals, but we kick 19 or 20 and win every time.  Makes for a better game of footy to watch as well.

Well, I'm allowed to dream, aren't I?
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 30, 2021, 04:19:26 pm
There might not be much in it, but I think King is somewhat better than Cornes. Once you strip away the made-for-fans bluster and antics, his point that we need to make some structural changes to our defence is both obvious and reasonable. I could personally live without watching or hearing someone impersonating an angry fan, but that's just me.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Thryleon on March 30, 2021, 05:53:19 pm
Leigh matthews once stated.

First to 16 wins the game.

I dont see that changing anytime soon, and now that I've posted this watch our games and see what happens.

Its a psychological barrier.   Teams kick 16 goals and either they win it in a canter or the opposition sneak their way back in and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat because complacency sets in.

I'll stick to that, and let the pundits state their bollocks.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: madbluboy on March 31, 2021, 09:47:55 am
There might not be much in it, but I think King is somewhat better than Cornes. Once you strip away the made-for-fans bluster and antics, his point that we need to make some structural changes to our defence is both obvious and reasonable. I could personally live without watching or hearing someone impersonating an angry fan, but that's just me.

King is the best special comments/ analyst in the caper. Like everyone he gets things wrong but he gets a lot right, he doesn't show any bias if anything he is harder on his own club.
He called the Dangerfield hit for what it was when everyone else said it was an accident.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on March 31, 2021, 10:06:23 am
King is the best special comments/ analyst in the caper. Like everyone he gets things wrong but he gets a lot right, he doesn't show any bias if anything he is harder on his own club.
He called the Dangerfield hit for what it was when everyone else said it was an accident.

I don't have Foxtel, so whatever exposure I have to King is from video snippets or articles in the free press. My issue is with the form rather than the content. If he delivered his thoughts without the theatrical die-hard-Cartlon-fan carry-on, it would be a lot better IMO. Listening to him at times, he sounds like folks on here after a bad loss. I don't know whether my tastes are eccentric or pernickety, but him and many others are insufferable far too often. My personal preference is for someone like Daniel Hoyne. He's not a commentator, but I like the way he just presents the data and leaves the histrionics behind :

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/purefooty/pure-footy-david-king-and-daniel-hoyne-crunch-the-numbers-on-the-games-biggest-trends/news-story/27054450945050174f10eefdf17e578d#share-tools
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: LP on March 31, 2021, 10:11:45 am
King is the best special comments/ analyst in the caper. Like everyone he gets things wrong but he gets a lot right, he doesn't show any bias if anything he is harder on his own club.
He called the Dangerfield hit for what it was when everyone else said it was an accident.
Do doubt, but that doesn't mean he is immune to flipping opinion and it doesn't make him immune to hypocrisy.

King was one of the AFLs loudest critics of low scoring and poor game spectacles, now the game style is basically what he asked for and he's telling us it's no good!
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Baggers on March 31, 2021, 01:22:40 pm
I don't have Foxtel, so whatever exposure I have to King is from video snippets or articles in the free press. My issue is with the form rather than the content. If he delivered his thoughts without the theatrical die-hard-Cartlon-fan carry-on, it would be a lot better IMO. Listening to him at times, he sounds like folks on here after a bad loss. I don't know whether my tastes are eccentric or pernickety, but him and many others are insufferable far too often. My personal preference is for someone like Daniel Hoyne. He's not a commentator, but I like the way he just presents the data and leaves the histrionics behind :

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/purefooty/pure-footy-david-king-and-daniel-hoyne-crunch-the-numbers-on-the-games-biggest-trends/news-story/27054450945050174f10eefdf17e578d#share-tools

Confess to liking them both, though for very different reasons.

I think they're clearly pointing out, and I've commented on this here, is that we've simply gone too far with such an offensive mindset.

Seems to me that when your mindset is so singularly 'attack' focussed, defensive accountability goes out the door... perhaps accountability, full stop, is a casualty of such a one-dimension approach?

 
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: dodge on March 31, 2021, 04:28:00 pm
One incident makes a trend these days according to all the media and analysts.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: tonyo on April 01, 2021, 09:56:46 am
One incident makes a trend these days according to all the media and analysts.
Once = 'trend'
Twice = 'complete change in direction'
Thrice = 'traditional'

....then the circle starts again
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on April 01, 2021, 02:17:33 pm
7 of Collingwood's total of 13 marks inside 50 were in the 1st quarter.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 01, 2021, 04:16:58 pm
7 of Collingwood's total of 13 marks inside 50 were in the 1st quarter.
Probably Elliott and Degeoy, wonder who they were playing on?
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on April 01, 2021, 04:25:40 pm
Probably Elliott and Degeoy, wonder who they were playing on?

I don't remember the specifics, but Kane Cornes said Plowman had Elliott the whole of the 1st quarter, then got moved onto deGoey in the 2nd. Elliott and Jordy are class acts and tough match ups, and when the ball comes in at cruise missile speed because the blokes up the ground are effectively invisible, I would defy any of our defenders to do better.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 01, 2021, 04:40:36 pm
I don't remember the specifics, but Kane Cornes said Plowman had Elliott the whole of the 1st quarter, then got moved onto deGoey in the 2nd. Elliott and Jordy are class acts and tough match ups, and when the ball comes in at cruise missile speed because the blokes up the ground are effectively invisible, I would defy any of our defenders to do better.
Dont disagree and made comment on Plowmans situation on another thread where I also take aim at the coach...
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: PaulP on April 01, 2021, 04:43:14 pm
Dont disagree and made comment on Plowmans situation on another thread where I also take aim at the coach...

Yes, just finished reading that post. Very good read. Well played sir.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 01, 2021, 04:52:22 pm
Yes, just finished reading that post. Very good read. Well played sir.
Should have added we lack that leader down back to organize such team defense....the good Carlton teams always had your Peter Dean/Michael Jamison types similar to Grimes who could work it out on field.
Poor Doc has had a bad run with injury /illness and isnt playing with any confidence to do that and a few things have transpired against us like they usually do when you are a mid pack team.

Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: spf on April 01, 2021, 11:42:46 pm
Should have added we lack that leader down back to organize such team defense....the good Carlton teams always had your Peter Dean/Michael Jamison types similar to Grimes who could work it out on field.
Poor Doc has had a bad run with injury /illness and isnt playing with any confidence to do that and a few things have transpired against us like they usually do when you are a mid pack team.

Maybe Weitering will be that person.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 02, 2021, 06:43:11 am
Should have added we lack that leader down back to organize such team defense....the good Carlton teams always had your Peter Dean/Michael Jamison types similar to Grimes who could work it out on field.
Poor Doc has had a bad run with injury /illness and isnt playing with any confidence to do that and a few things have transpired against us like they usually do when you are a mid pack team.


I heard a person on radio yesterday say Plowman is the general down  back for us.
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: capcom on April 02, 2021, 08:06:17 am
Yeah ... but general what?  :))
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 02, 2021, 09:58:30 am
Yeah ... but general what?  :))
Generally under pressure?
Title: Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood
Post by: northernblue on April 03, 2021, 11:40:29 pm
Tough audience... 😄