Skip to main content ↑ ↓
Topic: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood (Read 14453 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #180 –
Quote from: Baggers on
I don't think there was any suggestion of newbies and the riot act... bit of creative license there, Pauly  ;)  ;)

Maybe we believe in the 100th Monkey Effect? (Debunked, though Jung may have had a different view - collective unconscious, but that's a chat for another day).

In addition to the guys currently on the list and the ones I mentioned in my previous post, we have Walsh as a current player and we have Judd as a board member, both of whom know everything there is to know about work ethic etc. Now, if this 'lack of work ethic" theory is true, then either our players are deaf, or they're as thick as a 4x2. The elephant in the room, which so far as I can tell has not been mentioned, is that maybe the players gave up the chase etc. because they were stuffed, and maybe Collingwood won because they are simply a better, more experienced, more battle hardened team, and that too many of us underestimated them ?

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #181 –
Just to add to BigNic's post.  I have compared Carlton's lists since 2015 against Richmond - just numbers, not quality of list:

Number of players since 2015:
 - Carlton 116
 - Richmond 85

Number of players still on the list since 2015:
 - Carlton 6 (Curnow E, Casboult, Jones, Murphy, Cripps, Docherty)
 - Richmond 13 (Houli, Astbury, Martin, Grimes, Soldo, Riewoldt, Castagna, McIntosh, Lambert, Vlaustin, Edwards, Cotchin, Short)

Number of players still on the list since 2018:
 - Carlton 20
 - Richmond 28
Average years on a the list:
 - Carlton 2.74
 - Richmond 3.65

Coaches:
Carlton - 4? (Malthouse, Barker, Bolton, Teague)
Richmond - 1

Greater turnover of players makes it a lot harder to recruit, as priorities about which needs are greater have to be made, or recruits need to be made equally across a number of areas - a few more 'Hail Mary' recruits are made, hoping that they work.  This is a lot harder than have a stable side and being able to easily identify recruiting needs.  The effect is a less successful side has a lot more riding on getting the recruiting (and then development) right.

A more stable club has a stronger culture and knows what it is on about.  How much easier is it for Cotchin, who has played under 1 coach, then Murphy who has played under 6 (I think) to build a relationship, trust, understanding, learn a game plan, and its tweaks and understanding what is trying to be achieved.

There was a post somewhere about SWOT, Mission Statements etc much easier in a stable environment - people laughed at Gale and Peggy when they put theirs out.  Not sure who is currently laughing.  Strength and stability matters with these.  With new administrations, ideas, paths, these become meaning less.  Richmond has known what it wanted to achieve and has gone about ruthlessy delivering.  and Mission Statements etc become corporate nonsense.

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #182 –
Quote from: PaulP on
In addition to the guys currently on the list and the ones I mentioned in my previous post, we have Walsh as a current player and we have Judd as a board member, both of whom know everything there is to know about work ethic etc. Now, if this 'lack of work ethic" theory is true, then either our players are deaf, or they're as thick as a 4x2. The elephant in the room, which so far as I can tell has not been mentioned, is that maybe the players gave up the chase etc. because they were stuffed, and maybe Collingwood won because they are simply a better, more experienced, more battle hardened team, and that too many of us underestimated them ?

I don't think it's an elephant in the room, Pauly. I am very sure the entire footy world sees just how much we (and some of them/commentators) overrated ourselves/us... we started believing our own publicity/bullshizen.

In the media today, one commentator labelled us 'down hill skiers'... I'd say we are barely that. We have such an emphasis on our offensive game that we forgot (arrogance?) defense... ruthless defense, uncompromising defense.

The pendulum has swung too far the other way... under BB, too defensive (understandable - minimize damage), now... too offensive, and with that comes a psychological softness, a liking for the easy way, the path of least resistance.

It is exactly the same as last year. The only sides we beat are either in bad form or relax against us. Rottingwood relaxed in the 3rd qtr - went away from their approach and structures, they quickly fixed it and we, as per usual, wilted.

How the hell are we going to get the best out of our list when there is no emphasis on defensive pressure? Fair-dinkum, relentless pressure... and, err, that means, err... tackling! Ferocious, uncompromising tackling. We really are a one dimensional team... mmm... let me think... mmm, nuh, can't think of any premiership side, ever, who've gotten over the line without a strong defensive understanding and application.

But, hey, we're nice to watch. Really pretty. And just like a really pretty flower, as soon as a strong wind comes... the petals fall.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #183 –
Not sure the Pies are that battle hardened and experienced, they have a lot of kids too.
Think we are looking for excuses again..

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #184 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
Not sure the Pies are that battle hardened and experienced, they have a lot of kids too.
Think we are looking for excuses again..

Couldn't agree more. Rottingwood is nothing special. Any side applying half decent defensive pressure to us will be in with a show.

Our issues are of our own creation. Full stop.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #185 –
Our abysmal recruiting over the years has left us with a list that sets a new standard for mediocrity.

We are so lacking in skills, especially foot skills, that we are forced to play a predictable game that is easily countered by the opposition.

It was on display against Collingwood.  As soon as our players tired Collingwood packed its backline and we went back to our usual style of kicking the ball long into the forward line in the hope we could somehow scrounge a goal.

We had two forwards, one being Murphy, who showed they could not make the goal line from 40 metres.

We are unable to control the tempo of a game because of poor kicking skills.  When we try to do so opposition teams sit back waiting for the inevitable turnover.

Our recruiters must see what we see as to what makes a successful list so what is their problem?

We picked Dow with the view he would slot straight into the middle, yet it was well known that he has poor disposal skills. Setterfield, amongst others falls into that category.

This century we have recruited just three players I can think of who could kick accurately, kick long, and kick with either foot - Scotland, Houlihan and Gibbs.  That is a disgracefully small number.

St Kilda got Bradley Hill.  In the first quarter of our practice match he gave a Rolls Royce performance of skills that left our players floundering.

I'm at the point of believing no coach could do much with this talentless list.



Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #186 –
Quote from: Macca37 on
Our abysmal recruiting over the years has left us with a list that sets a new standard for mediocrity.
In fairness to the recruiters, nobody knew the current rule changes were coming.

If the game was the low scoring arm wrestle from 3 seasons ago I think we'd be much better off than we are now.

Secondly, the restriction on the runners is having a massive effect on young or unstable lists, they just can't get out there often enough and fix stuff. It's played into the hands of the older more stable club lists.
The Force Awakens!

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #188 –
Quote from: townsendcalling on
Since when has a club reported an injury accurately!!
@townsendcalling‍ 

I don't care so much about the reporting, I do care a lot about playing injured footballers no matter whether it's Joe Average or The GOAT!

As far as I know, it just never works out positively.
The Force Awakens!

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #189 –
Quote from: Macca37 on
St Kilda got Bradley Hill.  In the first quarter of our practice match he gave a Rolls Royce performance of skills that left our players floundering.


My understanding (I didnt watch the game), is that Hill put on a clinic on turnover-merchantry on the weekend.... so, prob not the best example

But, yes, when Saad laced-out a few on Thurs night, a few of us were wondering the last time we actually saw that in Navy Blue!!

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #190 –
Quote from: Milhanna13 on
My understanding (I didnt watch the game), is that Hill put on a clinic on turnover-merchantry on the weekend.... so, prob not the best example

But, yes, when Saad laced-out a few on Thurs night, a few of us were wondering the last time we actually saw that in Navy Blue!!

Agree, Hill was very average this week.

Love Saad - he and Walsh clearly our best imo.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #191 –
Been saying it for years in these forums....we simply don't have enough blokes who you'd say are "elite" with ball in hand. Williams and Saad have probably doubled the number! You could quite easily drop half a dozen blokes from round 2 based on their first two games this year (Murphy, Setterfield, Dow, Plowman, Williamson, Casboult.....probably one or two more) but like every year for the last half a dozen or so, where's the quality to come in?

Apart from Walsh a few years ago, our recruiting has been sh#thouse. We seem to be able to identify and then draft blokes who can't kick properly. We still haven't been able to draft or recruit a designated defender who can play a lock down role on an opponent. People on here saying the days of the tagger are gone because of the rule changes.....tell that to you young O'Connor from Geelong who kept Lachie Neale to 3 first half possessions on Friday night. Ed Curnow is still the only run-with type we seem to have. We've recruited and drafted a plethora of half-backs and right now Saad is the only one who's guaranteed of getting a game.

We only have two key defenders on the list.

We have one genuine ruckman in TDK who's injured. Pittonet bangs in hard and gives it a real go but is a 2nd stringer at best.

We gave up plenty to get McGovern and into year 3, he's pretty much done nothing for us.

People are quick to bag Jack Silvagni and he might not be an A-Grader, but I'd have him in the team before most others for the chasing, tackling, smothers etc that he brings.

Freo might be without Fyfe this week along with their two best key defenders but one thing will be certain, they'll be ferocious and desperate to win. If we're not, then it's 0-3...no chance of playing finals footy (again) and another finish hovering around the bottom 5 or so....and in familiar territory with no sign of where the improvement will come from.

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #192 –
According to Teague, LOB was unlucky to be dropped (for Williams or Martin) as he's been in good form...

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #193 –
Quote from: dodge on
According to Teague, LOB was unlucky to be dropped (for Williams or Martin) as he's been in good form...

When I heard that it took Mrs Baggers more than hour to reconfigure my body, as I fell through my own @rse.  :o  :o
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #194 –
Quote from: Macca37 on
Our abysmal recruiting over the years has left us with a list that sets a new standard for mediocrity.

We are so lacking in skills, especially foot skills, that we are forced to play a predictable game that is easily countered by the opposition.

It was on display against Collingwood.  As soon as our players tired Collingwood packed its backline and we went back to our usual style of kicking the ball long into the forward line in the hope we could somehow scrounge a goal.

We had two forwards, one being Murphy, who showed they could not make the goal line from 40 metres.

We are unable to control the tempo of a game because of poor kicking skills.  When we try to do so opposition teams sit back waiting for the inevitable turnover.

Our recruiters must see what we see as to what makes a successful list so what is their problem?

We picked Dow with the view he would slot straight into the middle, yet it was well known that he has poor disposal skills. Setterfield, amongst others falls into that category.

This century we have recruited just three players I can think of who could kick accurately, kick long, and kick with either foot - Scotland, Houlihan and Gibbs.  That is a disgracefully small number.

St Kilda got Bradley Hill.  In the first quarter of our practice match he gave a Rolls Royce performance of skills that left our players floundering.

I'm at the point of believing no coach could do much with this talentless list.




Some fair points Macca...the introduction of Saad has really improved delivery of the ball from half back but also shown how a really good user like Saad stands out when you put him with a team of very average kicking players who cant hit targets.
Really good players hit targets under pressure ie Saad...but a lot of our players cant hit targets even under no pressure.