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Messages - PaulP

17
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: RIP Bill Hayden
RIP Bill Hayden.

One of the very last of a capital L Labor, left wing, socially committed breed, before that New Labor / neo-liberal nonsense took over and darkened the horizon for good.
18
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: The classic/fave car thread
I don't really have much interest in cars, but the notion of the No3 Holden did pique my curiosity. One least guess : the 3rd of 10 pilot cars that were built after the 5 prototypes. 
19
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: The Voice
There's nothing good to come out of the no vote. The architects of the Voice proposal put forward the wussiest, most timid, inoffensive thing possible, and we couldn't even give them that. It reflects poorly on us as a nation. 
20
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: The Voice
I think the majority of people made up their minds many months ago as to how they were going to vote, and spent the rest of the time either not giving it any thought, or looking for reasons to justify their vote.
21
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: The Voice
Quote from: Baggers on
At the risk of creation a furore, and feeling a gentle tap on the shoulder from the trunk of an elephant... I wonder what the % of the respective voting sides would be if you eliminated the racist vote? I bet no-one is surprised that the Qld Yes vote struggled to get close to a third (of the vote)? :o

A question that is tempting to ask, but is for sure a dead end in terms of trying to get a genuine answer.
22
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: The Voice
Quote from: Baggers on
We're a paradox in the area of change.

Deeply progressive, even far-sighted in some areas yet feverishly fearful and conservative in others. SA was one of the first  states in the world to give women the right to vote and our nation one of the first (just behind the Kiwis) globally, yet indigenous folks were not given the right to vote until the late 60s! And the White Australia Policy wasn't given the kibosh (in writing, ie) until almost the mid 70s!

Generally, we are near the front of the pack to embrace technological change but not so much EVs? Such a fascinating little box of contradictions are we.

I suspect we are like most countries, with forces, beliefs, views pulling us in different directions. Most countries, in times of relative stability, do develop a certain character, a certain way of behaving, certain ideas, that give those countries a certain identity. I think it's also worth noting the global trends to which many countries fall prey. We are at a point now where the left is pretty much dead. Most countries are drifting towards the right. And I don't mean the Murdoch idea of left, which is laughable. I mean a legit alternative to the corporate forces and ideologies which have dominated far too long. 
24
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: General Discussions
Quote from: northernblue on
@PaulP "constructive" being the key point from your post above.
Yourself and Lods have made some excellent points.
Up here the no vote was definitely as a result of peoples negative interactions.

Yes. I certainly understand that we all have a limit, and you may get to a point where you give them the proverbial finger and decide you're not really going to help them. I wish there was an easy answer to this. I imagine there are long standing hostilities on both sides. It's easy and tokenistic for folks like me to say you need to look beyond that. The only indigenous folks I've been exposed to (through my wife's work) are inner city corporate / semi corporate types (almost yuppies but not quite), and I imagine they would be rather different to the First nations folks you would encounter.
25
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: Jim Park Analysis 2023
It's a pretty good top 10. Some may quibble about the order, but as a collective, they probably were our 10 best players over the season.

Thanks for all your work on this Stephen. Great stuff.
27
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: General Discussions
Quote from: Lods on
I wasn't really trying to emphasise the anger that some in the regional communities feel if they have been adversely affected.
Though no doubt that is a real and potent factor for some people
It was more to point out that to suggest they don't have an understanding of those issues is completely wrong.
They have a great understanding of where the problems lie...probably a greater appreciation than those living in the more affluent suburbs of Sydney and Melbourne.
So in voting they probably feel that an extra voice isn't what's needed....it's somebody to actually do something to address those problems.

Yes, I'm not so sure that simply living among a certain group of people somehow makes you an expert in understanding where the problems lie. I've not seen that happen much. I think the best way forward and the best way of understanding the issues is to study them with proper frameworks and proper methodologies, proper resources and the like. It is, in my opinion, no great surprise that academics who actually study the issues, and earn their stripes from doing so, are all pretty much in favour. I've never been in favour of the idea that the person in the street somehow becomes knowledgable simply by a kind of osmosis. No doubt the rural types who have regular interactions with First Nation people would have some knowledge, maybe over and above the inner city types, but whether that knowledge translates into something constructive is IMO, another matter entirely.
28
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: General Discussions
I certainly accept that it would be harder for folks living among indigenous people, who may be subject to negative behaviours from those indigenous folks, to see past all that and try to understand the deeper structural issues at play. I get that if your car has been vandalised a few times, you may not be feeling particularly charitable or generous towards our First Nation brothers and sisters. But that's not seeing the forest for the trees IMO. The Voice was supposed to play a part in addressing these issues, at least as I understand it.
29
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: The Voice
Quote from: LP on
Actually, the resistance to change is a characteristic of society under duress, it happens in the lead up to and during war. Under social duress the population opts for the status quo.

But, I'd assert that even under different circumstances the referendum would still have failed, because the question didn't offer the answer the wider general public wanted. The question was about as valid as Howard's Republic Referendum.

Was the question disingenuous?

You can look through our history and see that we are resistant to change at the best of times.
30
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: The Voice
The bias is alleviated to some degree by the fact that the 2 polls were conducted by 2 different outfits, Ipsos and YouGov. It's also worth noting the overall conclusions by those individuals quoted, who are experienced in understanding the numbers. Samples include :

More importantly, he said, when "even … a pretty small sample" produces a lopsided result of more than 70 per cent, for example, you can be "pretty confident" the real result is above 50 per cent.


However, they endorsed the YouGov poll in particular as the best available measure, and each agreed there was no scientific evidence to suggest anything other than broad support among First Nations Australians.

"So the sample is very consistent with the idea that Indigenous voters strongly supported the Voice at the time taken, and implies that they are likely to still do so."

Mr Bowe said the results of the two polls were "lopsided enough that we can say with confidence that the Indigenous Voice has strong Indigenous support," even if the exact figure was in question.