There is a lot of speculation about how we will go in 2014 with many predicting a rise up the ladder and a strong showing in the finals. However, the ultimate goal is always going to be winning the premiership and naturally, some of us older supporters are wondering if and when we'll see another one soon.
The question is though, will our next premiership be whilst Judd, Waite, Carrazzo and the older brigade are still at the club ??
I found this quote in an article about young Patrick Cripps which made me sit up and look twice :
In a season where Carlton will push aggressively for a top-four berth, Cripps could provide its ageing centre line with an injection of youth.
The Blues' midfield could take a new-look this year after recruiting Collingwood superstar Dale Thomas, ex-Lion half back Sam Docherty and former Swan and Bulldogs' utility Andrejs Everitt to help bolster the third oldest squad in the AFL.
We have the third oldest squad in the competition ?? What the hell ?? I would never have thought that was right but it is something of a damning statistic regardless how you look at it.
It makes me now believe that Malthouse is putting in place another of his patented 5-year plans in which he will systematically build a unique list of players that will give the club a sustained assault at the flag over many years instead of an "all your eggs in the one basket' last ditch attempt.
The way the list was turned over in the off-season was no accident, especially the players that were brought onto the playing list. I'm also expecting the same thing to happen at the end of 2014 actually, possibly not as savagely but certainly with the same intent and targetted direction.
Yes, we will be competitive over the next season or two but until we address those nagging long-term issues down the spine we are only an outside chance to pinch a flag.
This is why I believe that although we all would like to see the club win a flag whilst the old brigade is still playing, I just can't see it happening quite frankly.
2014 - holding pattern & learning curve
2015 - the start of the move into the fray
2016 - serious threats
Maybe not this year.... but you never know.
I always start the year thinking we can win it.
The suggested schedule is probably a fair guess, except to say that.... 2013 was our "holding pattern and learning curve". So with some minor adjustments.....
2013 - holding pattern & learning curve
2014 - the start of the move into the fray
2015 - serious threats
If we were to stay still or even go backwards this year it would be a big blow to morale.
Malthouse has had his 'fun' year... time to get serious!
@Sheik
I thought it was obvious. Carrazzo, Waite, Judd, Scotland, Simpson all in our top 10 all the wrong side of 30. Even blokes like Murphy, Gibbs, Thomas and Kreuzer are past or in their mid 20s. Blokes like Army, Jamo and Walker are 27+. We have an old list, if we don't do well this year there's no option other than to rebuild, especially if we lose someone like Gibbs to free agency.
@lodsie
We are far from a serious threat in 2015 with all those star players coming to the end. We are dropping off in 2015 compared to 2014 IMO.
Thing is Carrots, the players picked up via Free Agency and in the draft are all considered to walk-up starts in the seniors or in regards to the draftees, long-term players for the club.
This has to be a foundation for the future and if we do that again next year, it would mean another 5-6 solid additions making the list look even stronger again.
Murphy, Kreuzer, Gibbs and the like will be the elder statesmen when we next win the premiership IMO.
Hopefully our midfield is vastly improved on previous years.
Firstly - Fitness, with the inclusion of Buttifant. (See Bell) Malthouse obviously made direct comparisons with his days at Collingwood and realised we did not compare otherwise why change? Freindship with Buttifant? I doubt he is that kind of bloke.
Secondly - Personnel, Thomas, Cripps and Docherty should all add much needed depth. Also Murphy and Carrazzo had very little impact in 2013 due to injury.
If the above is all true??? then we should improve vastly.
Then we require Casboult to be significantly fitter and stronger to become a target. He needs to continuously provide a contest and take over the mantle as our big forward. He doesn't necessarily need to kick bags of goals and probably won't.
Unless both of the above happen I can't see us being a threat.
@lodsie
We are far from a serious threat in 2015 with all those star players coming to the end. We are dropping off in 2015 compared to 2014 IMO.
Problem with that argument is that you accept (as I do) that some of our better players will slip, yet you seem to discount the improvement to some of our younger players who in a year or two will be coming into their prime. Those around the 30+ mark are still top 22 players yet most of them even Judd over the last couple of seasons have been rather inconsistent.
The one thing that could have a huge impact on our onfield success is the appointment of Dean Laidley as midfield coach, he has always been a 'take no prisoners' type of player and coach which hopefully will rub off the players he manages.
Look how much has to go right:
MK develops into a good ruckman
Murphy has a great year
Thomas gets over his injury and returns to form
Waite gets on the park and isn't past it
Judd isn't broken
Garlett plays well without Betts
Robinson clicks under MM
Watson goes from a twos player to holding down a key post
Gibbs and Yarran pull their fingers out
Carrots gets on the park and the game hasn;t gone past him.
Curnow continues to be an good tagger
Too many question marks all over the ground for this year. Maybe it clicks in 2015 but it would be looking ominous for those guys.
Murphy, Kreuzer, Gibbs and the like will be the elder statesmen when we next win the premiership IMO.
Yep, they'll be in retirement homes! :P
It's not the well known players (the ones who's abilities we're well aware of) who'll make a difference between a successful season or not.
It's the ones who we're not so sure about who'll determine our success
I bet at the end of the year we're saying things like "I didn't know he would be that good", What a great season he's had" or "Hasn't he made a difference?" about a few of our players.
If we're not.... we'll probably be in a bit of strife.
@lodsie
We are far from a serious threat in 2015 with all those star players coming to the end. We are dropping off in 2015 compared to 2014 IMO.
Problem with that argument is that you accept (as I do) that some of our better players will slip, yet you seem to discount the improvement to some of our younger players who in a year or two will be coming into their prime. Those around the 30+ mark are still top 22 players yet most of them even Judd over the last couple of seasons have been rather inconsistent.
Murphy, Gibbs and Kreuzer are not great leaders like Judd, Carrazzo, Scotland et al.
The youth we have coming through do not get even close to the above mentioned players. I think the five players i mentioned are the heart and soul of the club and our club will have very little heart once these blokes depart.
It's not the well known players (the ones who's abilities we're well aware of) who'll make a difference between a successful season or not.
It's the ones who we're not so sure about who'll determine our success
That's true to some extent but if our top 10 have stinkers, forget it. It's true of any team.
Look how much has to go right:
MK develops into a good ruckman
Murphy has a great year
Thomas gets over his injury and returns to form
Waite gets on the park and isn't past it
Judd isn't broken
Garlett plays well without Betts
Robinson clicks under MM
Watson goes from a twos player to holding down a key post
Gibbs and Yarran pull their fingers out
Carrots gets on the park and the game hasn;t gone past him.
Curnow continues to be an good tagger
Too many question marks all over the ground for this year. Maybe it clicks in 2015 but it would be looking ominous for those guys.
This ^^
It's not the well known players (the ones who's abilities we're well aware of) who'll make a difference between a successful season or not.
It's the ones who we're not so sure about who'll determine our success
That's true to some extent but if our top 10 have stinkers, forget it. It's true of any team.
Or if five of them are 31+?
@lodsie
We are far from a serious threat in 2015 with all those star players coming to the end. We are dropping off in 2015 compared to 2014 IMO.
Problem with that argument is that you accept (as I do) that some of our better players will slip, yet you seem to discount the improvement to some of our younger players who in a year or two will be coming into their prime. Those around the 30+ mark are still top 22 players yet most of them even Judd over the last couple of seasons have been rather inconsistent.
Murphy, Gibbs and Kreuzer are not great leaders like Judd, Carrazzo, Scotland et al.
The youth we have coming through do not get even close to the above mentioned players. I think the five players i mentioned are the heart and soul of the club and our club will have very little heart once these blokes depart.
It's a funny thing about this game....
You can't possibly predict how good some of our young players will be in season 2014-15.
You can't predict how they will develop in terms of leadership.
.....and there will always be a group of players who'll step up and take that "heart and soul" role.
In fact some don't really shine until that older group move on.
Just as an example...Comparing a 2013 Graham or Menzel with a 2015 Graham or Menzel is like comparing apples and oranges.
Judd apart...the rest of our "Heart and Soul" guys are just "good average" players...no superstars there.
I think you can predict to some extent lodsie. Leadership and culture drive the development of young players at any club. We are behind in at least leadership we can all admit we have sht leadership at the club and those who are considered to be real leaders are nearing the end and our new captain doesn't lay tackles in big finals.
I'm not sure about the relevance of the statistic around average age. All AFL lists are so close in terms of average age. North's is 24.73 and Carlton's is 24.79. Hawthorn is 24.68.
Our average age is skewed because we recruited Duigan and Rowe instead of 18 year-olds more than actually having a full list of guys about to retire.
Waite, Judd and Scotland are a year or two away max from finishing but everyone else seems to have at least a few good years left. We didn't get much service out of those 3 last year anyway despite their massive combined salaries.
Half the reason why we weren't much good.
Our core right now is very much guys like Hendo, Gibbs, Murphy, Kreuze, etc. who are all in the middle of their careers.
So when the older guys go we'll be rebuilding around an experienced core - not a full scale bottoming out.
@lodsie
We are far from a serious threat in 2015 with all those star players coming to the end. We are dropping off in 2015 compared to 2014 IMO.
Problem with that argument is that you accept (as I do) that some of our better players will slip, yet you seem to discount the improvement to some of our younger players who in a year or two will be coming into their prime. Those around the 30+ mark are still top 22 players yet most of them even Judd over the last couple of seasons have been rather inconsistent.
Murphy, Gibbs and Kreuzer are not great leaders like Judd, Carrazzo, Scotland et al.
The youth we have coming through do not get even close to the above mentioned players. I think the five players i mentioned are the heart and soul of the club and our club will have very little heart once these blokes depart.
Turnips, Mate... your negativity astounds me! Why do you bother (with membership? maybe even getting out of bed each day)? Even Ye Sheikness is shining rays of (realistic) hope on our club.
I see so much for us to be optimistic about. This past season, still with a number of non-hackers in the group (most of whom are now gone), we only embarrassed ourselves in two games. And were only a bees plonker from winning games against top sides. And the Senior Coach admitted not really understanding the group properly for the first couple of months of the season proper (understandable considering the late arrival).
Go on... be bold, take a risk... allow a scintilla of hope / optimism for season 2014. Be good for the soul. ;)
LOL. You would seem very foolish if you adopted any other attitude Baggers. ;)
Look how much has to go right:
MK develops into a good ruckman
Murphy has a great year
Thomas gets over his injury and returns to form
Waite gets on the park and isn't past it
Judd isn't broken
Garlett plays well without Betts
Robinson clicks under MM
Watson goes from a twos player to holding down a key post
Gibbs and Yarran pull their fingers out
Carrots gets on the park and the game hasn;t gone past him.
Curnow continues to be an good tagger
Too many question marks all over the ground for this year. Maybe it clicks in 2015 but it would be looking ominous for those guys.
Im buoyed by your post personally:
MK can only have an a better injury free year, or will be replaced by Cameron Wood from the long term injury list. Wood is at worst a reliable ruck, which means we should improve in our ruck division.
Murphy has had 2 interuppted, below par seasons in a career spanning 8 years. In fact, last season was his worst 12 months with us since he was drafted. He stays fit, he will only be good.
Thomas is all about the body. If he is fit, he is an upgrade for us over any other player who would have been playing in his absence.
Waite's issue again is about playing games of football. When he plays he is rolled gold for us up forward. He does not have many matches where he doesnt fire, and when he does he is borderline match winner.
Judd should give us more next season. He has been below his best since the 2011 finals series, and this year will prove he is finished or will prove that he has a fair way to go. The way he was able to impact games towards the end of the season tells me his body was letting him down. The question mark remains, is he broken?
Garlett plays well with or without Betts, proven already. The question is, will we compensate enough for Betts absence?
Robinson is what he is. We just need him channelled better.
Watson can only improve.
Gibbs and Yarran can only improve.
Carrots is another who can only improve. The way he returned from his previous shoulder injury should keep us all buoyed about his prospects moving forward. The fact that he was always a fit guy can only help him get back.
Curnow has thus far proven that whilst he is able to compete physically that he can be a very good ordinary performer for us.
Things can only get better so to speak.
As a club, we failed to embrace the draft & strategic trades option for many years and as such, have not been able to develop a strong enough list with the necessary depth to take us back to the top.
Thankfully, the wheel has turned significantly in this direction and the list is now starting to take some impressive shape. The midfield fleet is stronger again with the various additions over the past 12-months, the only thing stopping us now is our ability to kick winning scores.
We all know that key position players do take a little longer to reach their zenith, question is, will Casboult ever ?? In what may sound like a weird sort of Twilight Zone moment, Casboult holds the key to our immediate success. If he can become a consistent goal-kicker in a key post (by that I'm suggesting 60-70 per year) then the rest will fall into place. If he doesn't, the stocks are going to be spread way too thin for another season and Henderson is going to be shuffled up and down the ground in most games.
If Casboult can't make that transition, then we are going to be waiting another 12-months for the club to "find" one elsewhere.
We all know that key position players do take a little longer to reach their zenith, question is, will Casboult ever ?? In what may sound like a weird sort of Twilight Zone moment, Casboult holds the key to our immediate success. If he can become a consistent goal-kicker in a key post (by that I'm suggesting 60-70 per year) then the rest will fall into place.
I actually wonder when the last time you actually watched football other than an interest in the odd Carlton game. 60-70 goals will have him in the race for the Coleman medal, ie one of the better forwards in the competition rather than a consistent contributor. Maybe if Hendo plays his entire time forward he might "contribute" those 60 goals but it won't be from Levi, 30 - 40 goals is more realistic of a great year for him but I'm not sure if he has it in him.
As a club, we failed to embrace the draft & strategic trades option for many years and as such, have not been able to develop a strong enough list with the necessary depth to take us back to the top.
Thankfully, the wheel has turned significantly in this direction and the list is now starting to take some impressive shape. The midfield fleet is stronger again with the various additions over the past 12-months, the only thing stopping us now is our ability to kick winning scores.
We all know that key position players do take a little longer to reach their zenith, question is, will Casboult ever ?? In what may sound like a weird sort of Twilight Zone moment, Casboult holds the key to our immediate success. If he can become a consistent goal-kicker in a key post (by that I'm suggesting 60-70 per year) then the rest will fall into place. If he doesn't, the stocks are going to be spread way too thin for another season and Henderson is going to be shuffled up and down the ground in most games.
If Casboult can't make that transition, then we are going to be waiting another 12-months for the club to "find" one elsewhere.
I get where you're coming from with that, mate, but it doesn't really hold true in all cases in the modern game anymore. Here are the leading goal scorers for last year's top 4 just to illustrate:
Hawthorn: Roughead (72), Franklin (60) - Yep, definitely supports your theory there.
Fremantle: Michael Walters (46), Chris Mayne (37) - Neither are key position players, and they played in the GF. It was their game plan that got them there.
Geelong: Hawkins (49) - He's a key forward, sure, but he didn't have to boot 60-70 goals to get Geelong into the top 4 and a breath from another GF.
Sydney: Tippett (35... in 12 games), McGlynn (30) - The Swans were winning plenty of games without any sort of bonafide key forward. They only got Tippett back for the second half of the season.
Surely that shows you that it's more about the game plan and contributions from all over the park, with everyone doing their jobs, than it is about having a big fella boot 70+ goals in a season. Plain and simple, we obviously don't absolutely have to have Casboult stand up and win a Coleman Medal, we need a team that buys into a winning plan and we need to execute that plan to an elite level week after week.
We do that, with the talent that we have available to us, and we have a good run with injuries then we are every chance to finish top 4 and challenge for a flag. We have the cattle and the structure now, I think.
Of course 60-70 goals in a season would have in the race for the Coleman, that's the whole point of having a key forward of that nature. If your team has the highest goal-kicker in the competition, the chances of your team winning more games than not would be dramatically increased.
Nath's examples :
Hawthorn: Roughead (72), Franklin (60) - Yep, definitely supports your theory there.
Fremantle: Michael Walters (46), Chris Mayne (37) - Neither are key position players, and they played in the GF. It was their game plan that got them there.
Geelong: Hawkins (49) - He's a key forward, sure, but he didn't have to boot 60-70 goals to get Geelong into the top 4 and a breath from another GF.
Sydney: Tippett (35... in 12 games), McGlynn (30) - The Swans were winning plenty of games without any sort of bonafide key forward. They only got Tippett back for the second half of the season.
Hawks - well we just want one of those types of player returns, two is a luxury.
Freo - they kick the ball to Pav more often than not, Garlett is our Walters and we have mids who can cover Mundy's return
Geelong - if we got 49 out of Casboult we'd be ecstatic, besides, the Cats have other goalkickers around him
Sydney - Tippett getting 35 in 12 games is equivalent to 65 in a full season, they now have Buddy, Reid & Goodes to create headaches for opposition coaches also.
We are far from a serious threat in 2015 with all those star players coming to the end. We are dropping off in 2015 compared to 2014 IMO.
You say this, and have a go at me for suggesting Carrazzo might be forced into retirement this year. :o
We are far from a serious threat in 2015 with all those star players coming to the end. We are dropping off in 2015 compared to 2014 IMO.
You say this, and have a go at me for suggesting Carrazzo might be forced into retirement this year. :o
My issue wasn't with whether the prediction would come to fruition, fruition being the operative word here. ;)
Who we pick up at the end of the season could be make or break for us and determine if we start making a big push in 2015. Sure our players should be better this season rather than last season. Sure we were as close as any side to beating teams way above us on the ladder. We just need the right depth to cover for the players about to leave. Also covering a key defender and a key forward to the mix.
Players that step up that make the difference to our squad.
Gibbs
Kreuzer
Murphy
Armfield
Casboult
Rowe
Curnow
Menzel
Watson
The others just need to consolidate performances that go week in week out. Tuohy, Warnock types and others we have may just keep us in the mix each and every game. One can pray at least. ;)
Want to believe it will be with Judd and co. but struggling to. I feel the core of our group are not up to taking us all the way yet and will mean we miss the Judd window, with the expansion teams looming and others its not nice to think about. Hope I get proven wrong!
Want to believe it will be with Judd and co. but struggling to. I feel the core of our group are not up to taking us all the way yet and will mean we miss the Judd window, with the expansion teams looming and others its not nice to think about. Hope I get proven wrong!
I'd like to be optimistic but we have our work cut out for sure! I'd be happy with top six this year.
Opps, wrong thread.
I have said previously we will not win a Premiership for another 10 years. That is, 2024:
My reasoning:
1. GWS and Gold Coast will be peaking in 5 years from now - 2019 as they have the best recruits in the land.
2. We have finished 9 in 2013 where we have deficiencies in spine players (my view - no power FF or CHF and FB) and midfielders (as per MM)
3. It will take 2 more years of MM drafting and list management to wholly change the list. That is a total of 3 years of list management and recruitment under MM.
4. Point 3 assumes that our recruiters (whoever they will be) make the correct decisions.
5. Throw in 2 -3 years of development after Point 4 - we do not know if MM be at Princes Park.
6. As a result of Point 5,we collide with and have to overcome Point 1.
Feel like I'm parroting myself again here but I'll say it for a billionth time.
We have been, and are, stuffed for a very long time. As it is round 1 2014 will mark our longest premiership drought in terms of games played without one.
It has been easier to accept for me because I see things for what they are.
In Tennis parlance, Carlton is a Thomas Berdych - Talented knocking on the door of the top bunch but cant crack through
Too many negative nellies.
Things can change very quickly. The Swans were looking done four years ago and won a flag two years later.
Ten years is just being pessimistic.
Too many negative nellies.
Things can change very quickly. The Swans were looking done four years ago and won a flag two years later.
Ten years is just being pessimistic.
Must be something in it if 3 Leos and I are in total agreement. Things can and do change very quickly in this caper. :)
Nup, Gozza is always bang on the money with these sorts of things. The world plain sucks. It's a harsh place Not all flowers and Blues premierships. We're going under for a long time.
Too many negative nellies.
Things can change very quickly. The Swans were looking done four years ago and won a flag two years later.
Ten years is just being pessimistic.
Yep - things change quickly.
Just like the present makeup of the Carlton Board..... ::)
Too many negative nellies.
Things can change very quickly. The Swans were looking done four years ago and won a flag two years later.
Ten years is just being pessimistic.
Yep - things change quickly.
Just like the present makeup of the Carlton Board..... ::)
lets not kid ourselves - we're 2 KPP stars from any of that talk
one back - one forward
Too many negative nellies.
Things can change very quickly. The Swans were looking done four years ago and won a flag two years later.
Ten years is just being pessimistic.
Yep - things change quickly.
Just like the present makeup of the Carlton Board..... ::)
lets not kid ourselves - we're 2 KPP stars from any of that talk
one back - one forward
Well in light of the recent Hendo setback, I believe you are somewhat right thrunthrublu. We have so much riding on Hendo we are like a school footy team. How our recruiters still have their jobs is beyond me, they have fudged up this group that should have been up there for a premiership with Judd and co. Talia was a no brainer that they stuffed up, and in my opinoin they overrated Kreuzer when we should have sent the pick 1 to the Eagles not Kennedy. Now we are suffering from those decisions as we are scratching and clawing to put some sort of spine together.
We are a joke. Nearly 20 years since a flag and it may as well be another 20 til another one. A few of us will probably long rotted out and consumed by worms by the time it happens. :'(
Yawn.
Yawn.
Yes I'm tired of Carlton being crape too. ;D
Yawn.
Yes I'm tired of Carlton being crape too. ;D
It's a pity you feel that way. I'm so bullish this year - I can see Casboult emerging up forward, Thomas adding an enormous amount to the midfield, Bell taking another step, Murphy, Gibbs, Judd, Kreuzer, Warnock, Robinson, Yarran, Simpson, Tuohy, Walker and Garlett doing their thing, Watson emerging, Everett and Dougherty adding plenty, Jamieson and Hendo solid and Waite with plenty of X factor. One more year under MM's game plan.
PLENTY TO BE EXCITED ABOUT.
Yawn.
Yes I'm tired of Carlton being crape too. ;D
It's a pity you feel that way. I'm so bullish this year - I can see Casboult emerging up forward, Thomas adding an enormous amount to the midfield, Bell taking another step, Murphy, Gibbs, Judd, Kreuzer, Warnock, Robinson, Yarran, Simpson, Tuohy, Walker and Garlett doing their thing, Watson emerging, Everett and Dougherty adding plenty, Jamieson and Hendo solid and Waite with plenty of X factor. One more year under MM's game plan.
PLENTY TO BE EXCITED ABOUT.
Did you just cut and paste from my post in the other thread ?? ;D
Just watching the second half of our final against Richmond. It gives the equivalent euphoric feeling as having a dozen beers. ;D
In Tennis parlance, Carlton is a Thomas Berdych - Talented knocking on the door of the top bunch but cant crack through
Carlton = Anna Kournikova....looks good but cant win a title....
Will be visiting this site more after TC once again got touchy over my questioning of the club's decision making.
If anyone knows my views the Judd deal was bad . You would only give up 2 potentially fine players who would be now at their peak and a 50 goals a year player for the best player in the land if the club thought they would win a flag in that time.
We are a long way off it and Judd hasn't long to go. Armfield the bi-product of the deal is a reasonable footballer but I reckon his skills arn't good enough to play in flags.
Once again the club screws up.
Two things to consider
Injuries and depth. Last year I went to see Geelong and the Northern Blues at Skilled and we scored one goal in a half of footy in perfect conditions with around 15 listed and rookie listed players. Obviously our depth was crap but it wasn't tested with a lack of injuries. With the addition of the new players from other clubs our depth is marginally better but if injuries mount up we are in big trouble.
The opposition that finished below us could all improve this year which means that we need to get better just to finish 9th( yes that is where we finished last year in reality)
My view is that this list is not capable of winning a flag and we need to rebuild now. Not getting sheepdogs that Thomas or guys who simply aren't up to it like Cameron Wood.
The problem is the culture of the club which is where too good to rebuild. This view has been the club's biggest problem. Its own view of itself.
Personally I am coming around to the view that MM isn't the answer
Will be visiting this site more after TC once again got touchy over my questioning of the club's decision making.
If anyone knows my views the Judd deal was bad . You would only give up 2 potentially fine players who would be now at their peak and a 50 goals a year player for the best player in the land if the club thought they would win a flag in that time.
We are a long way off it and Judd hasn't long to go. Armfield the bi-product of the deal is a reasonable footballer but I reckon his skills arn't good enough to play in flags.
Once again the club screws up.
Two things to consider
Injuries and depth. Last year I went to see Geelong and the Northern Blues at Skilled and we scored one goal in a half of footy in perfect conditions with around 15 listed and rookie listed players. Obviously our depth was crap but it wasn't tested with a lack of injuries. With the addition of the new players from other clubs our depth is marginally better but if injuries mount up we are in big trouble.
The opposition that finished below us could all improve this year which means that we need to get better just to finish 9th( yes that is where we finished last year in reality)
My view is that this list is not capable of winning a flag and we need to rebuild now. Not getting sheepdogs that Thomas or guys who simply aren't up to it like Cameron Wood.
The problem is the culture of the club which is where too good to rebuild. This view has been the club's biggest problem. Its own view of itself.
Personally I am coming around to the view that MM isn't the answer
Entitled to your opinion Keogh but your views are about as glass half empty as they come.
Even under Ratten playing the 'hot' WCE in a Perth final, bar injury to T-bird and some arguably parochial umpiring we would have won that game.
We get Carrots and Thomas fit for 2014 our midfield is as good as any, nay probably the best, if Gibbs and Murphy find some serious form.
We now also have two real, quality swingmen for 2014 - Hendo and Everitt.
Injuries withstanding, we are a good a chance as any for top 4 in 2014. After that, it's a roll of the dice.
Judd is all class and arguably Josh K. would not have dwevelopped as he has if he had stayed at CFC.
Matt Kreuzer - yes a dissapointment thus far but he still has time on his side to be what we all thought he would be.... a champion.
THEY SAID IT
"He's (Kreuzer) served his apprenticeship and I think in the next 30-40 games he'll really come into his own.
"If he doesn’t get more serious injuries he could play another 150-200 games. If that happens, he'll just keep getting better and become not only one of the best ruckmen but one of the best players in the competition.
“He can do things that other ruckmen can't. What's underestimated is his ability to do things after he hits the ball. He doesn’t just stand back and let the little fellas fight for the ball; he lays tackles and shepherds and stays in the contest. He certainly imposes himself.” – Former Carlton premiership ruckman Justin Madden, Saturday 27 July.
http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2013-10-02/2013-review-matthew-kreuzer (http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2013-10-02/2013-review-matthew-kreuzer)
Even under Ratten playing the 'hot' WCE in a Perth final, bar injury to T-bird and some arguably parochial umpiring we would have won that game.
We're a different side playing under a different system. We can't use that as a yardstick anymore.
We can run off as many "good" players as we like but we are still at a stage where we need to address the following:
- Play 4 quarters of football in most games
- Play more good games than bad
- Learn how to consistently set up around stoppages.
- Learn how to run both ways.
We still have major flaws in how we approach each game and we have a leader (and leadership group ) who has huge question marks over whether he can influence the group in a way which demands they work even when the odds are against them.
If he doesn't work 'against the odds' not much chance the rest of the team will. Captain needs to lead by example.
@Keogh
Been trying to convince to join the darkside for years welcome aboard!
@Keogh
Been trying to convince to join the darkside for years welcome aboard!
Hopefully this site doesn't squash peoples opiniond
Will be visiting this site more after TC once again got touchy over my questioning of the club's decision making.
If anyone knows my views the Judd deal was bad . You would only give up 2 potentially fine players who would be now at their peak and a 50 goals a year player for the best player in the land if the club thought they would win a flag in that time.
We are a long way off it and Judd hasn't long to go. Armfield the bi-product of the deal is a reasonable footballer but I reckon his skills arn't good enough to play in flags.
Once again the club screws up.
Two things to consider
Injuries and depth. Last year I went to see Geelong and the Northern Blues at Skilled and we scored one goal in a half of footy in perfect conditions with around 15 listed and rookie listed players. Obviously our depth was crap but it wasn't tested with a lack of injuries. With the addition of the new players from other clubs our depth is marginally better but if injuries mount up we are in big trouble.
The opposition that finished below us could all improve this year which means that we need to get better just to finish 9th( yes that is where we finished last year in reality)
My view is that this list is not capable of winning a flag and we need to rebuild now. Not getting sheepdogs that Thomas or guys who simply aren't up to it like Cameron Wood.
The problem is the culture of the club which is where too good to rebuild. This view has been the club's biggest problem. Its own view of itself.
Personally I am coming around to the view that MM isn't the answer
Entitled to your opinion Keogh but your views are about as glass half empty as they come.
Even under Ratten playing the 'hot' WCE in a Perth final, bar injury to T-bird and some arguably parochial umpiring we would have won that game.
We get Carrots and Thomas fit for 2014 our midfield is as good as any, nay probably the best, if Gibbs and Murphy find some serious form.
We now also have two real, quality swingmen for 2014 - Hendo and Everitt.
Injuries withstanding, we are a good a chance as any for top 4 in 2014. After that, it's a roll of the dice.
Judd is all class and arguably Josh K. would not have dwevelopped as he has if he had stayed at CFC.
Matt Kreuzer - yes a dissapointment thus far but he still has time on his side to be what we all thought he would be.... a champion.
THEY SAID IT
"He's (Kreuzer) served his apprenticeship and I think in the next 30-40 games he'll really come into his own.
"If he doesn’t get more serious injuries he could play another 150-200 games. If that happens, he'll just keep getting better and become not only one of the best ruckmen but one of the best players in the competition.
“He can do things that other ruckmen can't. What's underestimated is his ability to do things after he hits the ball. He doesn’t just stand back and let the little fellas fight for the ball; he lays tackles and shepherds and stays in the contest. He certainly imposes himself.” – Former Carlton premiership ruckman Justin Madden, Saturday 27 July.
http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2013-10-02/2013-review-matthew-kreuzer (http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2013-10-02/2013-review-matthew-kreuzer)
Everitt is not a proven performer yet
Our midfield is average they don't run well enough the other way and some lack mongrel. Gibbs is so overrated. For someone who is looked upon as a quality mid he still spends way too much in defence.
We lack depth although it's better than last year
@Keogh
Been trying to convince to join the darkside for years welcome aboard!
Hopefully this site doesn't squash peoples opiniond
Hmmm can guarantee that your opinions, whilst more than likely being unwelcome to some, will remain up for all to see. Sometimes that's a good thing and sometimes it's bad thing!! :P
@Keogh
Been trying to convince to join the darkside for years welcome aboard!
Hopefully this site doesn't squash peoples opiniond
Hmmm can guarantee that your opinions, whilst more than likely being unwelcome to some, will remain up for all to see. Sometimes that's a good thing and sometimes it's bad thing!! :P
But all in all, this site encourages rather than stifles debate. that's not to say there isn't heated debating and disagreement, but that's the fun of it. Welcome Keogh.
Talking Carlton is the Mensa of the internet.
We still have major flaws in how we approach each game and we have a leader (and leadership group ) who has huge question marks over whether he can influence the group in a way which demands they work even when the odds are against them.
Well, only the 2014 season can judge whether Murphy will garner Selwood like respect....?
Bring it in. The latter part of last season came me a degree of confidence that Murphy can deliver.
Well, only the 2014 season can judge whether Murphy will garner Selwood like respect....?
Agree, he has every opportunity to prove to the world he can be a great captain. The team could go either way IMO and much of the responsibility of which direction it takes will fall at the feet of Murph.
Welcome to Keogh..always enjoyed his work on TC and we can always do with another point of view that isnt blinded by a Navy Blue haze....
Have not been back to TC in ages.....are the Cazz's with blind loyalty still defending the recruiting?
Welcome to Keogh..always enjoyed his work on TC and we can always do with another point of view that isnt blinded by a Navy Blue haze....
Have not been back to TC in ages.....are the Cazz's with blind loyalty still defending the recruiting?
Yep.
Welcome Keogh.
Seen your work on tc
Like your thinking...
Welcome Keogh. I have read some of your material on TC. As far as I am concerned opinions are great and people can chose to agree or choose not to. Just reminding you that my opinions are always correct, so if you choose to not agree with me you choose to accept you are in the wrong. ;D ;)
I agree with some of your thoughts about the Judd deal. If things were different we would be in a better way in terms of Key forwards. However Judd was a marketing deal that would have brought many more members than not having him around. The old crystal ball is always an issue. ;)
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but, in my opinion, anyone who thinks the Judd deal wasn't good for Carlton has rocks in their head. The benefits of having the ultimate professional footballer at our club will continue long after he retires.
As for winning a flag, Malthouse was employed to do just that so, if we don't win one this season, it will be 2015.
Yes, we may be missing a KPP or two on last season's form but, if the stars align, we could have several in form KPPs vying for a spot in the 22.
As others have pointed out, the Swans weren't even contenders in 2005.
I hope to buggery that my view of another crappy season is proven false. But each year I seem to get pretty close to the pin of how our year will go. As we all know, I don't rate us at all again this year. Time to be proven wrong for once!! ;D
As for winning a flag, Malthouse was employed to do just that so, if we don't win one this season, it will be 2015.
Was that a clause put into his contract by the AFL? ;D
As for winning a flag, Malthouse was employed to do just that so, if we don't win one this season, it will be 2015.
Was that a clause put in by the AFL? ;D
You'll find those clauses written into the contracts of Guy McKenna and Leon Cameron. ;D
Unfortunately I think Malthouse has found himself cleaning up a mess, before we go anywhere. My gut feel is he didn't invisage us being this far off the pace. This year will tell us heaps, as we basically stood still after that finals loss to the Eagles and just expected things to happen rather than doing something about it.
I like your optimism DJC, but although I think we'll improve this year I don't think it will be by much.
Unfortunately I think Malthouse has found himself cleaning up a mess, before we go anywhere.
Yes, why does no one care that nobody (club wise) could spot that our side was no good. What does that say about our checks and balances? Surely Ratten wasn't that good at covering up?
My gut feel is he didn't invisage us being this far off the pace.
I don't really get this argument that he was this ignorant of our list. I know he was busy selling books and everything but surely we can expect a guy we are paying a million bucks a year to have as much knowledge of the players as we do?
Well, only the 2014 season can judge whether Murphy will garner Selwood like respect....?
Agree, he has every opportunity to prove to the world he can be a great captain. The team could go either way IMO and much of the responsibility of which direction it takes will fall at the feet of Murph.
Yes p
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but, in my opinion, anyone who thinks the Judd deal wasn't good for Carlton has rocks in their head. The benefits of having the ultimate professional footballer at our club will continue long after he retires.
As for winning a flag, Malthouse was employed to do just that so, if we don't win one this season, it will be 2015.
Yes, we may be missing a KPP or two on last season's form but, if the stars align, we could have several in form KPPs vying for a spot in the 22.
As others have pointed out, the Swans weren't even contenders in 2005.
Would you say the same thing if we had Dangerfield, Scott Thompson and Josh Kennedy all now at their peak or a great player in potentially his last season and Armfield. I know what I would choose. It comes down to your recruiters having more hits than misses. These deals are a thing of the past.
Unfortunately I think Malthouse has found himself cleaning up a mess, before we go anywhere.
Yes, why does no one care that nobody (club wise) could spot that our side was no good. What does that say about our checks and balances? Surely Ratten wasn't that good at covering up?
My gut feel is he didn't invisage us being this far off the pace.
I don't really get this argument that he was this ignorant of our list. I know he was busy selling books and everything but surely we can expect a guy we are paying a million bucks a year to have as much knowledge of the players as we do?
Absolutely we should expect that, what I was trying to say was I suppose he wasn't sure of the intangibles i.e player mentalities, drive, personalties, leadership etc. The list I hope he would have had a good handle on but its the other things, I mean last year he mentioned more than once that the group was largely introverted or didn't know what it took to win consistantly, which is obvious as we never have been on a run of more than 4 or 5 wins in the last few years. This has been a point of concern for me with our recruiters/list management, you need not only to balance the size and positions of players on your list but the personalities and mentalities.
The biggest fk up was giving a player we already had in Kennedy instead of giving the Eagles the #1 pick Kreuzer. Obviously hindsight is a wonderful thing but at the same time our moronic recruiters had Kreuzer as the next big thing, an athletic freak. I always scratched my head at the comments after we got him when our recruiters actually said that Nic Nat was the next big thing and would have easily been taken before Kreuzer had he been available. So Kreuzer was in fact not the next big thing at all.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but, in my opinion, anyone who thinks the Judd deal wasn't good for Carlton has rocks in their head. The benefits of having the ultimate professional footballer at our club will continue long after he retires.
As for winning a flag, Malthouse was employed to do just that so, if we don't win one this season, it will be 2015.
Yes, we may be missing a KPP or two on last season's form but, if the stars align, we could have several in form KPPs vying for a spot in the 22.
As others have pointed out, the Swans weren't even contenders in 2005.
Would you say the same thing if we had Dangerfield, Scott Thompson and Josh Kennedy all now at their peak or a great player in potentially his last season and Armfield. I know what I would choose. It comes down to your recruiters having more hits than misses. These deals are a thing of the past.
Yes, I agree that free agency means that it is unlikely that teams will get involved in trading for elite players.
I mean last year he mentioned more than once that the group was largely introverted or didn't know what it took to win consistantly
Mick is a political animal. Fair enough, he wouldn't have lasted all this time if he wasn't. His comments about Carlton were a nice asterisks, a get out clause.
Its all hindsight.
Judd brought more than just his own ability. It has been mentioned the Juddite nature of the entire side, and it was public knowledge that our boys were unproffessional thanks the influences around them.
I would be willing to bet, that the majority of the group started lifting their game month by month since Judd arrived where before that, there was little improvement to be had in the group.
No amount of Dangerfields, Kennedy's or anything would have fixed that, as Nick Stevens ruled the roost, with Fevola just behind him. They were the picture of everything that was culturally wrong about our football team, and the culture that Judd will have helped instill in our playing group will be one that lasts long after he is finished playing footy.
We dont know how much of this would have changed without him at the club, nor whether or not we would have been able to hang onto the blokes that have renewed their contracts since he arrived.
Its all hindsight.
Judd brought more than just his own ability. It has been mentioned the Juddite nature of the entire side, and it was public knowledge that our boys were unproffessional thanks the influences around them.
I would be willing to bet, that the majority of the group started lifting their game month by month since Judd arrived where before that, there was little improvement to be had in the group.
No amount of Dangerfields, Kennedy's or anything would have fixed that, as Nick Stevens ruled the roost, with Fevola just behind him. They were the picture of everything that was culturally wrong about our football team, and the culture that Judd will have helped instill in our playing group will be one that lasts long after he is finished playing footy.
We dont know how much of this would have changed without him at the club, nor whether or not we would have been able to hang onto the blokes that have renewed their contracts since he arrived.
Disagree if the culture of the place was better then there is no need to have the best player coming to the club to fix the problem.
The biggest fk up was giving a player we already had in Kennedy instead of giving the Eagles the #1 pick Kreuzer. Obviously hindsight is a wonderful thing but at the same time our moronic recruiters had Kreuzer as the next big thing, an athletic freak. I always scratched my head at the comments after we got him when our recruiters actually said that Nic Nat was the next big thing and would have easily been taken before Kreuzer had he been available. So Kreuzer was in fact not the next big thing at all.
x2.
Carrots my thoughts exactly. Everyone makes its a Judd v Kennedy debate when it really always was a Kreuzer v Kennedy debate. I love Kreuzer as much as anyone, but that decision was a big stuff up. It really is hurting us now, a good spine was always more important than a potential superstar ruckman. The premiers over the last few years are examples of this, you just need a good enough ruckman to do the job. We are all experts in hindsight but our recruiters are really something.
Don't really want to open up this old chestnut again but there are two key ways to look at this - for and against.
1. We would have been better off giving the Eagles the #1 pick and keeping JK. A pick was always a gamble, as we had not seen the player i.e. Kreuz play under AFL conditions.
or
2. Kennedy, although OK with us, had not set the world on fire up to that point. We also still had Fev. Admittedly JK was under his shadow, but we weren't prepared to tell Fev to pull his head in a bit and give JK the chance blossom. (Probably thought we could win the flag with Fev and Judd ::) ).
In reality, Kreuz still has much of his career ahead of him and still has time to really come good so I'll keep my powder dry for the time being.
Jamison
Henderson
Kennedy
Waite
That's pretty imposing. Hard to see where MK would provide more value unless he completely dominates the ruck
Jamison
Henderson
Kennedy
Waite
That's pretty imposing. Hard to see where MK would provide more value unless he completely dominates the ruck
Hopefully MM will have a few more ideas?
Jamison
Henderson
Kennedy
Waite
That's pretty imposing. Hard to see where MK would provide more value unless he completely dominates the ruck
He won't/can't. He's not overly tall for a ruck, he's not overly quick and his leap is average at best.
Everybody look like a genius in hindsight. ;D
Wish I'd have got that bird's number last Saturday night. ;D
Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing. I could make a fortune on the punt!
Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing. I could make a fortune on the punt!
Many are blessed with it at the 20/20 level. ::)
Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing. I could make a fortune on the punt!
Isn't that a bit 'forbidden' for your liking? ;D
I can't believe that folk are preferring Kennedy over Kreuzer :o
Kennedy has had ample time to mature and he's a reasonable CHF. Kreuzer was thrown in at the deep end and he's shown that he can match it with the best . . . and his best is ahead of him.
I can't believe that folk are preferring Kennedy over Kreuzer :o
Kennedy has had ample time to mature and he's a reasonable CHF. Kreuzer was thrown in at the deep end and he's shown that he can match it with the best . . . and his best is ahead of him.
Get effed DJC, I recruit in HINDSIGHT, and hell if I'm going to change my mind. Further, I want to look like an effing genius.
I can't believe that folk are preferring Kennedy over Kreuzer :o
Kennedy has had ample time to mature and he's a reasonable CHF. Kreuzer was thrown in at the deep end and he's shown that he can match it with the best . . . and his best is ahead of him.
Don't get me started on this one. He will deliver and many will find him a blessing because he has more ticker than any player I have seen. He just needs some luck when it comes to injury issues, and to back himself more. Mind you Kennedy back now would make a huge difference to our structure. To any sides structure for that matter. Kennedy has blossomed. The other needs time to get his confidence back. My opinion and very few will agree.
I can't believe that folk are preferring Kennedy over Kreuzer :o
Kennedy has had ample time to mature and he's a reasonable CHF. Kreuzer was thrown in at the deep end and he's shown that he can match it with the best . . . and his best is ahead of him.
Don't get me started on this one. He will deliver and many will find him a blessing because he has more ticker than any player I have seen. He just needs some luck when it comes to injury issues, and to back himself more. Mind you Kennedy back now would make a huge difference to our structure. To any sides structure for that matter. Kennedy has blossomed. The other needs time to get his confidence back. My opinion and very few will agree.
Kreuzer has been your man for as long as I can remember.
I can't believe that folk are preferring Kennedy over Kreuzer :o
Kennedy has had ample time to mature and he's a reasonable CHF. Kreuzer was thrown in at the deep end and he's shown that he can match it with the best . . . and his best is ahead of him.
160 goals and about 45 goal assists. True that JK has 2 years on MK but that's a hell of a lot of goals which would have benefited the team.
Also bit unfair to say JK is reasonable when he is in the running for the Coleman most years and MK matches it with the best when I don't think you can say he's influenced many games.
Good CHF's win premierships........you put JK at CHF in our team and we are top 4.....but something had to give to get Judd and steady what was a sinking ship.
Sticks loved JK and hated giving him up to WC but we were in ruins,..we got an elite player and a leader and it was the right move.
Matthew Kruezer still has time on his side and to me its apples and oranges comparing a KF to a ruckman....
The only thing I will say that the value of a good CHF remains constant but ruckman appear to be a lesser rated commodity in todays modern game...
Will be visiting this site more after TC once again got touchy over my questioning of the club's decision making.
Many years ago, after we so convincingly won the 1995 GF, our supporter base blindly followed John Elliott and never ever questioned what he did or said.
History now shows that we had to unceremoniously throw him out of the club and endure the most savage fines & draft penalties ever handed down which virtually crippled us for near on a decade.
So, anyone who wants to question the club's actions is more than welcome around here in my opinion !! Someone has to keep them honest.
Good CHF's win premierships........you put JK at CHF in our team and we are top 4.....but something had to give to get Judd and steady what was a sinking ship.
A good spine win's premierships with CHF, acknowledged as the hardest position on the ground to play, being the pivotal slot to success.
Have a look at all of our premierships, have we ever won one without a good spine & CHF ??
In my memory, our KP backs and forwards have included: Lofts, Walls, Kekovich, V. Waite, (Swan) McKay, Southby, Doull (when KPPs didn't have to be 6' 4" or better!), Maclure, Fitzpatrick (yes, fronted up at CHF on many occasions), Perovic, Bortolotto/Ditchburn (did their jobs for a short period), Silvagni, Dean, Aitkin (unless a sack of cowardly slime broke his jaw - never the same after that), Kernahan, Dorotich, Spalding...
This year it is Jamison, Watson, Henderson and Waite. Good on paper... but, will Watto stand up, ditto Waite?
Will Casboult take the next step? Ditto Rowe.
In my memory, our KP backs and forwards have included: Lofts, Walls, Kekovich, V. Waite, (Swan) McKay, Southby, Doull (when KPPs didn't have to be 6' 4" or better!), Maclure, Fitzpatrick (yes, fronted up at CHF on many occasions), Perovic, Bortolotto/Ditchburn (did their jobs for a short period), Silvagni, Dean, Aitkin (unless a sack of cowardly slime broke his jaw - never the same after that), Kernahan, Dorotich, Spalding...
This year it is Jamison, Watson, Henderson and Waite. Good on paper... but, will Watto stand up, ditto Waite?
Will Casboult take the next step? Ditto Rowe.
How the likes of Casboult, Watson and Rowe fare this season will go a long way to deciding whether or not we have a decent year or not and whether we can start to resemble a footy side again.
If we're fair dinkum as a club too then planning for life after Jarrad Waite should be long thought out. Tipping he will give it away after this season, or he'll be elsewhere.
it's not all about CHF and full forwards Sydney won the 2012 grand final with Reid and Lrt as there key position forwards with Goodes on one leg.Its more about a contribution across the board.Who would rate those 2 as elite players ,they are both just serviceable contributors.There is no reason the likes of .Cas and Waite cannot contribute in the same way allowing the smalls to carry out the majority of the goal kicking.In my opinion Menzal could be our Gunstun 3rd tall with the likes of Yaz and Garlett and our on ballers contributing a larger amount of the scoring. When was the last time a key forward kicked a bag of goals in a grand final? I will say if Reid became available I would love to see him at our club I think he is only going to get better but the 5 year deal he got will make it hard to get him unless he wants out .Ite time we put our trust in what we have to see if they are capable if not at the end of the year bye bye.The like of cas bell menzal should all be given 6 to 10 games to show there stuff without having to worry about getting dropped every second week to build there confidence.Its time to give the kids ago nearly everyone on here does not see us winning the flag the way we are going so it's time to put up or shove of for the younger players.I don't believe the likes of ellard bootsma(at this stage)Lucas Rowe 206 cachia army and the likes will ever be premiership players at our club.So it is time to move on .
Like it or not at least it's my opinion.
@Slugger
Tend to agree with you Slugger but I think a critical mass of good players is reached in a team when it is then able to carry a couple of lesser mortals, who can look better than they really are. An example for me would be say Josh Hunt who IMO is a very average player but looked adequate most of the time for the Cats, but also had some glaring lapses on occasions.
I think we are still probably still 2-3 quality players short of that critical point. With the advancing years of Scotto, Juddy and Waite we need to address this issue very soon, as we could fall back alarmingly pdq.
@Slugger
Tend to agree with you Slugger but I think a critical mass of good players is reached in a team when it is then able to carry a couple of lesser mortals, who can look better than they really are. An example for me would be say Josh Hunt who IMO is a very average player but looked adequate most of the time for the Cats, but also had some glaring lapses on occasions.
I think we are still probably still 2-3 quality players short of that critical point. With the advancing years of Scotto, Juddy and Waite we need to address this issue very soon, as we could fall back alarmingly pdq.
Love your work, Furry Biscuit.
It really is achieving that balance across the board where there is that (as you write) critical balance of above average and elite players (talls and meds and smalls).
Matt Clape would be another good example of an average dude who was in the right place at the right time ('95). McKenzie in '87 would be another.
@Slugger
Tend to agree with you Slugger but I think a critical mass of good players is reached in a team when it is then able to carry a couple of lesser mortals, who can look better than they really are. An example for me would be say Josh Hunt who IMO is a very average player but looked adequate most of the time for the Cats, but also had some glaring lapses on occasions.
I think we are still probably still 2-3 quality players short of that critical point. With the advancing years of Scotto, Juddy and Waite we need to address this issue very soon, as we could fall back alarmingly pdq.
Love your work, Furry Biscuit.
It really is achieving that balance across the board where there is that (as you write) critical balance of above average and elite players (talls and meds and smalls).
Matt Clape would be another good example of an average dude who was in the right place at the right time ('95). McKenzie in '87 would be another.
Jesus, Matty Clape'. What has happened to him...haven't heard of him for a long time. No jobs in footy or anything.
@Slugger
Tend to agree with you Slugger but I think a critical mass of good players is reached in a team when it is then able to carry a couple of lesser mortals, who can look better than they really are. An example for me would be say Josh Hunt who IMO is a very average player but looked adequate most of the time for the Cats, but also had some glaring lapses on occasions.
I think we are still probably still 2-3 quality players short of that critical point. With the advancing years of Scotto, Juddy and Waite we need to address this issue very soon, as we could fall back alarmingly pdq.
Love your work, Furry Biscuit.
It really is achieving that balance across the board where there is that (as you write) critical balance of above average and elite players (talls and meds and smalls).
Matt Clape would be another good example of an average dude who was in the right place at the right time ('95). McKenzie in '87 would be another.
Two excellent examples Baggers.
Spent a bit of time with the (Collingwood supporting) uncle today. I reckon we should make Rene' Kink an assistant coaching offer he cannot refuse!!
Spent a bit of time with the (Collingwood supporting) uncle today. I reckon we should make Rene' Kink an assistant coaching offer he cannot refuse!!
Really ? The Hulk ?? Last I remember of him was a boxing match years ago.
Spent a bit of time with the (Collingwood supporting) uncle today. I reckon we should make Rene' Kink an assistant coaching offer he cannot refuse!!
Really ? The Hulk ?? Last I remember of him was a boxing match years ago.
Fat lump of sh1t is all I know him as. Uncle reckons he was that great. Seeing as our club is already mostly ex-Collingwood, surely one more wouldn't hurt. ;D
Its all hindsight.
Judd brought more than just his own ability. It has been mentioned the Juddite nature of the entire side, and it was public knowledge that our boys were unproffessional thanks the influences around them.
I would be willing to bet, that the majority of the group started lifting their game month by month since Judd arrived where before that, there was little improvement to be had in the group.
No amount of Dangerfields, Kennedy's or anything would have fixed that, as Nick Stevens ruled the roost, with Fevola just behind him. They were the picture of everything that was culturally wrong about our football team, and the culture that Judd will have helped instill in our playing group will be one that lasts long after he is finished playing footy.
We dont know how much of this would have changed without him at the club, nor whether or not we would have been able to hang onto the blokes that have renewed their contracts since he arrived.
Disagree if the culture of the place was better then there is no need to have the best player coming to the club to fix the problem.
Thats cool Keogh. Thats what forums are for, we agree to disagree.
IMHO We needed Judd. We had no idea what we were doing, and we proved that when we unceremoniously decided to not back in a coach we signed on a 2 year contract one year into it. Yes Malthouse was needed and he is further fixing up the culture of the place (read, the Judd move fixed the playing group in terms of their proffesionalism, but the club still had the old bring in the messiah complex and to a degree thats what got Malthouse here) but that seems to be more happy accident based on old Carlton logic than anything else. We have another so-so year this year, and we might repeat our old errors and turf him out and try to lure the angry ant from Hawthorn over here. No doubt once he is here he will be victimised in the media about his poor image and it will be yet another Carlton failing.
In a way, the best test of those who are responsible for the clubs daily operations will be if we have another so-so year. It will really see what conviction they have to fix the place up. They take the easy option and sack the coach again, and it will simply prove that we are the same old Carlton who failed to learn from its past mistakes. We have a succesful year, and It might ratify the incorrect thought processes, and fail to test our board to really analyse our situation and come up with a plan to really improve the place. Sure, i want a flag as bad as anyone but I would rather have a club that takes a holistic approach to mending the failings of the place and set it up for a sustained rise to the top that see's us become the benchmark of the competition again rather than a cheap Eddie Mcguire Collingwood knock off, that will win 2 flags in as many generations and might flail around wildly from then onwards based on the fact that they have pandered to the whims of an arrogant CEO and a former star player.
I understand that you think we didnt need Judd, but I am going to accuse you of not thinking it through. Our recruiting was rubbish (and yet our developement is and was almost as bad). Odds are we would have made the same decision with that #4 draft pick that West Coast did and recruited Chris Masten. Handy player, but Kane Lucas is the same sort of player.
We needed Judd. If our club culture was any good (proven that it wasnt) we would have had Brittain around the place still who would have sacked Fev for us, and perhaps when the AFL came down on us like a tonne of bricks, we might have come out the otherside in much better shape than we did.