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11
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 11 2024 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Gold Coast
Last post by DJC -
I was at the game, and things may have looked different on TV, but i cannot agree with this statement.

Me and 40k of my closest mates seemed to see some very obvious ones being missed.
Most of it was based on the holding the ball decisions.....that were not paid.

A lot of the frustration would be taken away, and the decision making of the umpires made easier, if we ditched the prior opportunity rule.

Right now a player takes on a tackler (which gives up his right to prior opportunity) is correctly tackled and doesn't dispose of it correctly, and the umpire doesn't pay anything because they say there was no prior opportunity. So the mistake came when judging if/when a player decided to take on the tackler.
Removing prior opportunity removes that decision making error.

There's a similar problem when the ball comes out in the tackle.
Is that supposed to be play on?
Does the player with the ball get done for incorrect disposal?
This seems to change depending on how long the player had the ball for as well......or....if he had prior opportunity. TBH, i'm not sure which way that rule is supposed to go, but thats how its umpired and thats where another grey area is introduced where it shouldn't be.

I keep banging on about it, but removing prior fixes so many of these errors.
The main issue seems to be that people don't want to penalise the player making the play.....which is a reasonable stance.
However, currently, we do not reward the tackler enough. It NEEDS to be fairer in that regard.

If the ball is knocked free in the tackle it is holding the ball if there was prior opportunity and play on if there wasn’t.

Similarly, a player must dispose of the ball immediately when tackled if he had prior opportunity.  If there was no prior opportunity, the player must be given a reasonable time to dispose of the ball.

That’s where the confusion lies; identical tackles can have different outcomes depending on whether there was prior opportunity.

Get rid of prior opportunity, adjudicate every tackle on its merits but don’t disadvantage players who take on the tackler.  Ping them if they don’t make an attempt, but give them a reasonable time to dispose of the ball.
12
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 11 2024 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Gold Coast
Last post by Lods -
I'm not averse to giving the removing the prior opportunity a go.
But I think we need to see it trialled before we make the change to determine how much of a difference it would make.
Just for a bit of fun I watched a quarter  a few weeks ago and tried to 'umpire' it on the basis of get the ball and if tackled release it virtually immediately in a proper manner...no prior.
Of course it may very well  have been my interpretation, but I only counted 4 occasions when it would have made a difference...when a free might have been paid.
I'm guessing it was probably a lot greater on the weekend
I wonder how much difference it would make to the game, but we won't know unless we trial it...with umpires a bit more accomplished than my good self :))
13
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 11 2024 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Gold Coast
Last post by kruddler -
Despite an out of the box low free kick count there wasn't much obvious stuff missed, and I suspect the main complaint will be that all the subtle / borderline frees went GC's direction in the 1st half, but I didn't see any major clangers by the umpires for either side.

I was at the game, and things may have looked different on TV, but i cannot agree with this statement.

Me and 40k of my closest mates seemed to see some very obvious ones being missed.
Most of it was based on the holding the ball decisions.....that were not paid.

A lot of the frustration would be taken away, and the decision making of the umpires made easier, if we ditched the prior opportunity rule.

Right now a player takes on a tackler (which gives up his right to prior opportunity) is correctly tackled and doesn't dispose of it correctly, and the umpire doesn't pay anything because they say there was no prior opportunity. So the mistake came when judging if/when a player decided to take on the tackler.
Removing prior opportunity removes that decision making error.

There's a similar problem when the ball comes out in the tackle.
Is that supposed to be play on?
Does the player with the ball get done for incorrect disposal?
This seems to change depending on how long the player had the ball for as well......or....if he had prior opportunity. TBH, i'm not sure which way that rule is supposed to go, but thats how its umpired and thats where another grey area is introduced where it shouldn't be.

I keep banging on about it, but removing prior fixes so many of these errors.
The main issue seems to be that people don't want to penalise the player making the play.....which is a reasonable stance.
However, currently, we do not reward the tackler enough. It NEEDS to be fairer in that regard.
14
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 11 2024 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Gold Coast
Last post by DJC -
Is it possible this is by instruction ? I find it hard to believe that the coaches don't notice this, and if they're unhappy with it, would they not issue a corrective ? I've heard a number of coaches criticize too many players getting sucked in to the contest, and state some players need to be stationed outside the contest to receive the footy.

That’s the key Paul; Fantasia is getting games because he’s following instructions.

He’s not supposed to get sucked into contests, we’ve got the big bodies to do that.  He’s supposed to provide an outlet and make good use of the ball when it does come his way.

He also spends a lot of time talking to his teammates and I suspect that part of his role is to ensure that players stick to their roles.

I’d still like to see him more involved in the game and making the most of opportunities around goal.
15
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 11 2024 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Gold Coast
Last post by PaulP -
I thought it was his best game for us so far, but off a low base.

Still very worried about his lack of physical contesting, for me it's not a game style that stands up in finals, you often see him lurking in the background at stoppages, rarely moves forward into the traffic, even when the ball spills in his direction he seems to back off waiting for it to be delivered...............................................................................................

Is it possible this is by instruction ? I find it hard to believe that the coaches don't notice this, and if they're unhappy with it, would they not issue a corrective ? I've heard a number of coaches criticize too many players getting sucked in to the contest, and state some players need to be stationed outside the contest to receive the footy.
16
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 11 2024 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Gold Coast
Last post by LP -
Fantasia was pretty good on Saturday.  He had some critical possessions deep in defence and his pass to Harry for a goal was outstanding.  He's still not hitting the scoreboard himself though.
I thought it was his best game for us so far, but off a low base.

Still very worried about his lack of physical contesting, for me it's not a game style that stands up in finals, you often see him lurking in the background at stoppages, rarely moves forward into the traffic, even when the ball spills in his direction he seems to back off waiting for it to be delivered.

I much prefer the likes of Acres, Cottrell even Owies, because even if they aren't able to break through at the stoppage they still have a go when they have to.
17
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 11 2024 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Gold Coast
Last post by DJC -
I would play my nana in front of Fantasia.

Why he keeps getting full game time is beyond belief. Surely motlop takes his place if fit this week.

Fantasia was pretty good on Saturday.  He had some critical possessions deep in defence and his pass to Harry for a goal was outstanding.  He's still not hitting the scoreboard himself though.

I'd much prefer to have Motlop in the team, but not on the back of a five disposal game in the VFL.  If he's fit, he should be dominating at that level, even if the team is copping a hiding.
19
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 11 2024 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Gold Coast
Last post by LP -

Hardwick did make one pertinent point; 131 tackles were laid for very few free kicks.  A lot of those tackles were relatively meaningless, repeat efforts in congestion, but more than a few should have been rewarded with holding the ball free kicks and some should have been punished for holding the man.
Coaches all want a different version of the rules, the version that favours the own game style, don't listen to coaches, listening to coaches is even worse than listening to the media.

Coaches won't even give a consistent interpretation at different ends of the ground!
20
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 11 2024 Post Game Postulations Carlton vs Gold Coast
Last post by DJC -
There won't be much to come out of that umpire complaining, Hardwick's example was Charlie being spun in the tackle but the reality is Andrew didn't halt Charlie's movement or inhibit his disposal so the umpire is correct.

The umpire was correct because the rule says that he/she must give the player with the ball a reasonable time to dispose of it.  In the circumstances, that was a reasonable time … and the rules say nothing about 360 degrees.

The tackle definition does not include “impede progress” or “prevent disposal”.

The real error the umpire made in that passage of play was failing to pay Charlie a free kick for a push in the back.

I'm against Hardwick's demand umpires blow the whistle sooner, he seems to think "We the public" want that as the default, which in effect encourages and rewards tacklers. But for me it's the exact opposite of what the general public want, we want the player hunting the ball rewarded, we do not want the sniper who sits off the contests and tackles rewarded.

There’s no logical connection between umpires paying holding the ball free kicks quickly and players being injured in tackles.  Andrew’s tackle was poorly applied and allowed Charlie freedom to move and get an effective disposal. Hardwick would be better off focusing on ensuring that his players tackle correctly.

Part of the problem is confusion about the holding the ball rules.  A player who has “prior opportunity” must dispose of the ball immediately when tackled.  A player who doesn’t have prior opportunity (ie Charlie) must dispose of the ball within a reasonable time as determined by the umpire in the circumstances.

Putting aside team loyalties, what do punters want to see; a player winning a free kick for holding an opponent’s arm or a player taking on the tackler and using strength and skill to dispose of the ball?

I’d rather see Dusty, Reid, Petracca, Crippa, etc take on and beat the tackler.

Hardwick did make one pertinent point; 131 tackles were laid for very few free kicks.  A lot of those tackles were relatively meaningless, repeat efforts in congestion, but more than a few should have been rewarded with holding the ball free kicks and some should have been punished for holding the man.