Skip to main content
Topic: 2018 Rd 11: Post Game Pragmatism: Carlton vs Sydney (Read 19387 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: 2018 Rd 11: Post Game Pragmatism: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #105
Theres another factor.

Cripps demands an opponent.

Nick Graham doesnt.  They will simply park someone on the next best midfielder (hypothetically Fisher).

No Cripps, means an additional decrease in output from at least one other midfielder (Fisher) and another samish performance from lets say Paddy Dow.

Cripps often gets an opponent at the stoppage then after that the opposing teams have an opponent running off him looking to exploit his lack of pace.....the opponent can often
be a different player.

Re: 2018 Rd 11: Post Game Pragmatism: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #106
In fairness to BB, I think he's got our defensive setup pretty well sorted if he was to play that game style. I think we could easily win a few sub-10 goal games if we wanted to do it that way.

Maybe, just MAYBE, the strategy of stemming the flow of heavy losses by shoring up our defence was the wrong horse to back.  I mean, on the surface it seemed logical.  If I was on the interview panel and the prospective coach pitched a game plan based on sound defence after which the focus would shift to forward structure and scoring, I probably would have bought it.

However ... WHAT IF some maverick, crazy-son-of-a-b*tch waltzed in there and said, "Pfft, don't care how many points the opposition scores. Recruit me 4 or 5 natural born forwards, help me build a decent midfield, then let the other clubs try and catch us."

Much easier to play back than forward which is why I put the emphasis on natural born.

Unfortunately, we'll never know. The horse has already bolt(on)ed.
Keyboard warrior #24601

Re: 2018 Rd 11: Post Game Pragmatism: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #107
Menegola hardly gets looked at, yet Rowe cops a $1500 fine.

Sinclair flops around like a fish and gets $1000 fine.

Level playing field my ar$e.

I'm still pi$#ed about that.  >:(
Coming together is the beginning.
Keeping together is progress.
Working together is success.
Henry Ford.

Re: 2018 Rd 11: Post Game Pragmatism: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #108
Maybe, just MAYBE, the strategy of stemming the flow of heavy losses by shoring up our defence was the wrong horse to back.  I mean, on the surface it seemed logical.  If I was on the interview panel and the prospective coach pitched a game plan based on sound defence after which the focus would shift to forward structure and scoring, I probably would have bought it.

However ... WHAT IF some maverick, crazy-son-of-a-b*tch waltzed in there and said, "Pfft, don't care how many points the opposition scores. Recruit me 4 or 5 natural born forwards, help me build a decent midfield, then let the other clubs try and catch us."

Much easier to play back than forward which is why I put the emphasis on natural born.

Unfortunately, we'll never know. The horse has already bolt(on)ed.

For whatever reason, most coaches seem to be either ex defenders or ex mids. There are, as always, exceptions, but it's generally the case. I think the emphasis on defence starts from there. I also think that as you imply, it's easier to defend than to attack. I would say attacking is a more creative act than defending. Coaches talk a lot about defensive structures and defensive mechanisms, but rarely about attacking structures and attacking mechanisms. I think coaches also feel a little uneasy about high scoring, shoot out footy, because they don't have as much control over the players - it tends to be more instinctive when you play that way.

Many coaches preach the mantra of a strong defence, and regard building from the back as important to a successful attacking game - Malthouse, Leigh Matthews, even Ratten started out trying to shore up our defence in late 07 and 08.

Re: 2018 Rd 11: Post Game Pragmatism: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #109
Maybe, just MAYBE, the strategy of stemming the flow of heavy losses by shoring up our defence was the wrong horse to back.  I mean, on the surface it seemed logical.  If I was on the interview panel and the prospective coach pitched a game plan based on sound defence after which the focus would shift to forward structure and scoring, I probably would have bought it.

However ... WHAT IF some maverick, crazy-son-of-a-b*tch waltzed in there and said, "Pfft, don't care how many points the opposition scores. Recruit me 4 or 5 natural born forwards, help me build a decent midfield, then let the other clubs try and catch us."

Much easier to play back than forward which is why I put the emphasis on natural born.

Unfortunately, we'll never know. The horse has already bolt(on)ed.

Pretty much Geelong of the early 90's and we all know what happened there.
4 Grand Finals and zero wins.

Re: 2018 Rd 11: Post Game Pragmatism: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #110
Pretty much Geelong of the early 90's and we all know what happened there.
4 Grand Finals and zero wins.

North under Pagan were much the same, but have 2 flags. They always relied on simply out scoring the opposition. Easy to do when you have an arrogant and talented Duck as your CHF, hence the Pagan's Paddock game plan. And Longmire was very good as well.

Re: 2018 Rd 11: Post Game Pragmatism: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #111
North under Pagan were much the same, but have 2 flags. They always relied on simply out scoring the opposition. Easy to do when you have an arrogant and talented Duck as your CHF, hence the Pagan's Paddock game plan. And Longmire was very good as well.

They did have a pretty solid defence too though:   Over those two premierships, the likes of - Archer, Martyn, Blakey, Pickett, Pike.  But yes, I accept probably not quite in the league of the Doull, English, Southby, Perovic, McConville, Hunter.
Life is pain....... anyone who says differently is selling something.

Re: 2018 Rd 11: Post Game Pragmatism: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #112
They did have a pretty solid defence too though:   Over those two premierships, the likes of - Archer, Martyn, Blakey, Pickett, Pike.  But yes, I accept probably not quite in the league of the Doull, English, Southby, Perovic, McConville, Hunter.

That's a good back 6, no doubt. I guess I was referring more to emphasis and intent, rather than personnel.

A bit off topic, but worth a read IMO :

http://www.nmfc.com.au/news/2015-08-13/the-evolution-of-pagans-paddock

Re: 2018 Rd 11: Post Game Pragmatism: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #113
Maybe, just MAYBE, the strategy of stemming the flow of heavy losses by shoring up our defence was the wrong horse to back.  I mean, on the surface it seemed logical.  If I was on the interview panel and the prospective coach pitched a game plan based on sound defence after which the focus would shift to forward structure and scoring, I probably would have bought it.

However ... WHAT IF some maverick, crazy-son-of-a-b*tch waltzed in there and said, "Pfft, don't care how many points the opposition scores. Recruit me 4 or 5 natural born forwards, help me build a decent midfield, then let the other clubs try and catch us."

Much easier to play back than forward which is why I put the emphasis on natural born.

Unfortunately, we'll never know. The horse has already bolt(on)ed.

It's the way finals are played these days. All of Richmond's finals were low scoring affairs for a long time until Richmond's pressure broke them. The QF was 3 goal all against Geelong late in the 3rd qtr. Geelong have more gone done that path this year. More defensive, lower scoring but the opposition not scoring much. It's what wins finals these days as the pressure and congestion in finals goes up about 5 notches these days. It's one game we do play well and revel in even with our skinny bodies. Even though we lose we often make life very tough for good opposition when we play that brand. We'll play it very well in September when our bodies become bigger and stronger.

The play the attacking way you talk about gets you obliterated in finals as you won't be allowed to play that way.

 

Re: 2018 Rd 11: Post Game Pragmatism: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #114
They did have a pretty solid defence too though:   Over those two premierships, the likes of - Archer, Martyn, Blakey, Pickett, Pike.  But yes, I accept probably not quite in the league of the Doull, English, Southby, Perovic, McConville, Hunter.

I just had a look at some of the ladders from 1996 through to 2000 and the North defence while dotted with stars was pretty average in terms of points conceded....mid table (or below on some occasions.)
I think their effectiveness may have been more about "attacking" from defence than pure defending.

In their 1996 premiership year they were nearly 173 points better than the second highest scoring team (Geelong) and 200+ points ahead of all the others.
But in terms of points against they ranked 7th defensively in a 16 team comp(one more point and it would have been 8th).

In 1999 they were still top for "Points for" (albeit a little bit closer) but they were 10th best defensively...so it's a fair point Paul makes in saying they just went for it and said catch us if you can.

Re: 2018 Rd 11: Post Game Pragmatism: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #115
For whatever reason, most coaches seem to be either ex defenders or ex mids. There are, as always, exceptions, but it's generally the case. I think the emphasis on defence starts from there. I also think that as you imply, it's easier to defend than to attack. I would say attacking is a more creative act than defending. Coaches talk a lot about defensive structures and defensive mechanisms, but rarely about attacking structures and attacking mechanisms. I think coaches also feel a little uneasy about high scoring, shoot out footy, because they don't have as much control over the players - it tends to be more instinctive when you play that way.

Many coaches preach the mantra of a strong defence, and regard building from the back as important to a successful attacking game - Malthouse, Leigh Matthews, even Ratten started out trying to shore up our defence in late 07 and 08.

That all depends on what you are talking about.

Defending requires much more discipline.  Attacking is all about being an opportunist.

Id argue its hard to remain discipline in your tasks, and much easier to throw caution to the wind.

It's why the focus on defense exists, because if players aren't worried about defensive duties they often sell out their teammates, which builds mistrust, which also makes them play conservatively rather than rolling the dice, which breeds bad morale, and which also leads to players being labelled cowards, and downhill skiers.

Even applying defensive pressure in the forward line is easy.  You can make an attempt at 5 tackles and succeed once in holding the ball, and your defensive pressure is lauded, but if you spoil 4 marks out of 5 and then concede 3 goals from 15 entries you lost that battle against your opponent and your forward had a decent day out and the defender had a dirty day.

Modern sports is best summed up by simple statements.  Risk vs Reward.  If the reward is great, but the risk is great, then you need to have a good handle on what point of the game you are in.  Teams that are down by a couple of goals with very small amount of time left in the game can afford to take the high risk high reward route.  Teams that are dead in the water, can also play high risk footy.  Teams that are infront by a minute margin or have trouble converting their chances, or don't get many chances are better off playing low risk footy.

Sometimes, its all about momentum too.  If the momentum is with you, take more risks.  They will pay off more frequently and hurt you less.  If momentum isn't with you, sometimes you need to hold your ground.

People often get too caught up in the arguments above to realize that every team takes risks, but the major difference is how the game is going when they do.  We often threw caution to the wind under Ratten as an example.  Made for exciting games, but we often got beaten by teams who had a better appreciation for when to take the game on, and when not to.  The great grand final comeback is the best example of this.  We were dead and buried, and then played on for the rest of the game.  Its all about getting the balance right.


"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: 2018 Rd 11: Post Game Pragmatism: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #116
In 1999 they were still top for "Points for" (albeit a little bit closer) but they were 10th best defensively...so it's a fair point Paul makes in saying they just went for it and said catch us if you can.

In terms of aggregates for goals in games, "total of goals for and against" there is very little difference between the top and bottom teams.

Other than the Dogs, the lowest scoring games regardless of for or Against are not the ones people expect.

Dogs, GWS, GC, Aints, Norp, Sydney, Geelong are all below the AFL average of 262 goals in games for the first in 11 rounds.

Freo is the average at about 262.

Carlton games are just above average at 267, that's 24 goals for and against per game.

The teams participating in the highest scoring games on average are just averaging a couple of goals per game better at 26.

The media would make this out to be earth shatteringly low scoring, it's just not the case and certainly not Carlton's problem.
The Force Awakens!

Re: 2018 Rd 11: Post Game Pragmatism: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #117
Thry, I don't really disagree with any of that, but sometimes the exact same strategy yields opposing results. When the risk comes off (e.g. 1970 GF), it looks great and everyone lauds a winning tactic. When it doesn't, everyone involved looks like a goose.

Re: 2018 Rd 11: Post Game Pragmatism: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #118
North under Pagan were much the same, but have 2 flags. They always relied on simply out scoring the opposition. Easy to do when you have an arrogant and talented Duck as your CHF, hence the Pagan's Paddock game plan. And Longmire was very good as well.

Their mids worked both ways.
Geelongs only ran forward

Re: 2018 Rd 11: Post Game Pragmatism: Carlton vs Sydney

Reply #119
We dont kick enough goals and play a scrapping brand of football based on contesting and dragging the other team down to our poor skill level...four games on a friday night was a poor move from the AFL but great for us but we have  not been able to take advantage and use it to market the club.
We dont have a game plan, we just scrap and hope the other team fall into the same pattern and we get lucky......its reminds me of the old days when Footscray had Jose Romero, Libba snr and Dimmatina as their midfield...just awful games based on scrapping, players behind the ball, niggling and rolling scrums...