There is a difference between playing 30yo's and trading 1st round picks for them.
Nobody is saying Marshall is going to a retirement home next year, but surely people can see that his longevity compared to what else that same 1st round pick can get you elsewhere is severly different.
Let TDK walk. Use Pittonet for a year with HOK as backup. Maybe add Riley in the off-season. See how that goes for the year and if required, get a free agent ruck in next year.
No we are gonna trade them all at 28 because they are busted and we need to get value in the team.
So we are going to trade what we have with value to get value, and then wonder why the club is spiritually bankrupt.
The argument rings true on many levels, I wouldn't be trading anything of such high value for an old player either.
The reality: Age 31 at Carlton, and there would be numerous calls to delist him, and trade him "whilst he still has currency".
Not new for "billy" hes missed a lot of footy with hamstrings and foot issues.
Quote
The only thing I know about his injury is that he was coming off for a couple of weeks midway through a second quarter and couldn’t feel his foot,” Buckley said on SEN.
“He’d take his boot off and it (his foot) was black. That’s a concern, you know something’s not right. They were able to find the vascular issue, which is basically blood flow into and out of his foot.”
The Collingwood trio are exceptional players, coached by the most innovative coach in the comp who has managed his older troops with precision. We don't have any of that capability at our club and can't get the simple stuff right.
OK, how about old man Goldstein at Essendon then?
He isnt tripping the light fantastic, but hes been a solid contributer. Carlton dont rate solid contributer hight enough IMHO, and Jeremy Howe in particular is not someone who has an injury free history, and when I think of him is highlight of intercept marking being in his game.
As for the innovative coach, how did they go in finals of 2024? Given they won the flag in 2023, and then bombed out completely, and now stand above everyone, why did he get 2024 so wrong?
You are 3 key players away from being an also ran in any one season.
If you want to debate that bit, have a look at what happened in Brisbane's start to last season. Thats what an absence of belief does to a team. Took them a few weeks and a really big win at the G vs Melbourne but it corrected their trajectory and put them back on track last year. Sure they needed some effort and some luck but its all part of it. Im interested in hawthorn last year. They looked unstoppable when they were fit. They've had some players breakdown and have started looking way more fragile lately.
We sit at arms length from the club, casual observers outside of it and dont really have skin in the game and have varying degrees of opinions and generally dont agree on what is wrong, and how to fix it.
This is of itself fine but there would be people inside the club who are of the same thinking.
What matters isnt that they arent in agreement but how they disagree.
I.e. I respect you but dont agree with your opinion or methods so I'm going to "check out".
That is a toxic behaviour. Irrespective of the method. Football clubs are attempting utopia. Keeping 45 blokes happy is a challenge of itself. Keeping 30 would be hard enough, but you can choose your hard. We dont seem to have an exodus at the blues. Guys dont walk after having enough. We've had a few opt out unless the conditions are right but more tend to opt in. If TDK is an example of that, he's got a lot of money and a club on the skids as a reason to leave. No one will blame him for that, but of the rest anyone who has left, only tuohy left of his own volition and he is scathing of the Brendan bolton era being a reason behind it and the club not valuing him at the time. However that suits him. He walked to a premiership outfit and greener pastures (pun intended).
Who else has walked out on us? It appears to be happening in a minute but half the forum want to trade everyone anyway which makes me wonder are they walking because of us or are we effectively going to enact a strategy that sees them walk?
Underneath that, I dont buy that the club loses players. We arent in good nick, and it shows on field this season. You can see it in the newbies who are bog average VFL players getting lots of games and pointing at the absences. The crystal ball cant tell you what will happen next year, but its not because players arent in. I think they're clever enough to know the condition of their teamates relative to the competition and that is explaining the lack of belief in what they're doing.
We have too many silver spoon players at AFL level who think they are better than everyone else.
How many times you think Walsh, Weitering, Cripps, McKay, Curnow have played VFL?
Then they look at the VFL boys and think they arent good enough to be there. Notice how JSOS doesnt suffer from this? He's an average player with above average motivation to give his all for the team competitively and is the only reason he has forged a 100 game AFL career.
Groups within groups always happen at footy clubs, but that doesnt mean alot.
I get the idea they are church choir boys relative to the old school footballers who played up a lot more off the field. Most of these guys are getting on and having kids. This is another reason why im not in a hurry to go straight to the youth. We seem to have a lord of the flies situation at Carlton most of the time, where all the old players are shunted to the background and the young kids run the place and most of them are not mature enough to set the appropriate standards. We had Judds leadership into Marc Murphy into Patrick Cripps and Sam Docherty as co captains back then. Would be nice to have some continuity in the team, retire our older players, add a youthful layer from wherever in the draft, supplement with some VFL types, and bringing in some free agents and one thing that carrying players from draft into retirement will do, will create an environment where perhaps turbulence isnt a factor to the career you forge.
Geelong, Collingwood and Hawthorn seem to have that. Sure, no guarantees you will have a long career but the premature delisting, trading and offing of players who are still capable of playing good footy to get youth in will leave your club morally bankrupt as you treat people as commodities rather than loyal servants.
Its not an excuse to not play him. For gods sake, watch him play at VFL Level and tell me whether or not you want a slower lumbering tall, who is a focal point getting 3 or 4 touches, and relying on perfect delivery to take a mark. He has superior reach in the VFL and is out marking players and converting truly.
Actually let me paint a picture a different way. We played DGB at key forward on the weekend. He showed as much if not more than Lemmey did, and he is a failed AFL defender parading as a forward.
Thats not to say im in favour of not playing him.
Against North, I think we were looking at a different equation but would have understood that selection too. In fact, any game where Lewis young was selected as a Key Forward is where Lemmey probably should have played, but he is a bit matt watson like for me. We are playing him out of the square, he is leading up. Taking a mark, and kicking a goal. About once a quarter, maybe slightly more. It is the VFL, and against better opposition it was Corey Durdin kicking the sealer not Harry Lemmey. Thats not to say he wont be good enough, but I dont see Lemmey as being AFL capable athletically at this stage. Or maybe, we are hiding him for this season, because we dont want everyone to know we have a key forward waiting and to inflate Mckays asking price if someone wants a trade. Who knows for sure?
Im not worried about the MC and placing faith in them. Ive seen enough with my own eyes to know that there are multiple reasons why guys arent getting a game. Moir is the example here. He was REALLY good at VFL level last week, as was Frankie Evans. Into the ones, and average would be an improvement for both, because they are not AFL competitive yet.
Its not the number of changes its the role and how its played. We are already not well drilled. We have a few blokes trying to learn running patterns and then add too many doing that and you demoralise the rest.
We've only played about 3 to 4 players with minimal afl experience most weeks.
I expect that to continue not because of the names but because its something Carlton hasn't had before. We tend to scorch earth rebuild, so everyone is learning together.
I get what you are saying, and most times you'd be very much correct.
I'll ask you this and you decide if that would've matter in this instance.
By NOT making those extra couple of changes, was our team performance better off as a result? Keeping in mind we had our (almost) biggest defeat of the year of 56 points. Was there any benefit by not making 'too many' changes? Would it have matter if it was 50 point defeat or 70-80 point defeat?
Hard to measure.
Its as much a rhetorical question, but lets subtract the needs of the individual slightly and look at the bigger picture.
Lemmey we want to find out whether or not he can compete at AFL level. we are putting him in vs a team who is cruising to a flag, and playing him in a forwardline composing of Lachie Fogarty (one dimensional) Ashton Moir (no dimension to speak of yet), Zac Williams (Good but broken) Tom De koning as the relief ruck, Charlie Curnow, Orazio Fantasia with interchange forwards of Jesse Motlop and Frankie evans.
Evans was the obvious one, but ultimately his VFL form demanded a game, so he wasnt going out. Who does Lemmey come in for?
Its very easy sitting in the arm chair playing team selector, but I wouldn't like to play a forwardline sans curnow when we are already missing Mckay. Moir maybe, but he is running on ball, so Lemmey isnt doing that. TDK? Dropping him in favour of Lemmey when Pittonet has been very patchy at AFL level is risky. You rob the mids if we end up rucking Lemmey at all, because he is ruck sized, but not ruck competitive. you touched on playing Cripps hurt, but that means we cant run Moir on ball because we played Lemmey.
We already carried HOF in, who was coming in cold. Playing Lewis Young instead of HOF doesnt help him either.
Its a balance. IF your goal is to get Lemmey into the team, you can achieve that, but if your goal is to do the right thing by the team, is playing Lemmey the right option?
As per northerns comment, there is no way that is right, and none that is wrong. Had he played I would have said yep, probably time to test him. We have 6 games to go though and he will get a shot, and I dont think its going to be one and done.
Which brings us back to the original argument.... Are these players still some of the best? Are they playing like some of the best at the moment? If not, will they be some of the best again.
The old saying that a "Champion team will always beat a team of Champions" probably applies to us in spades when you consider how well some opposition clubs 'team' together. We're not in the same ballpark in terms of connection.
Voss was employed to build a Champion team not a list of Champions, not that we have many true Champions apart from Cripps imho anyway and some of our supposed better players are way overhyped. Looking at our opponents and reigning Premiers, Id suggest Fagan isnt a great tactical genius much like Voss but the one thing he has done well is weld that talented list into a champion team who play for each other. They are well known for being tight off the field and you never hear any bad stuff about relationships going sour with coach/players and they have overcome the player retention issues that many interstate clubs face as well as being a destination club. A lot of that has also been put down to Greg Swann running the club well but has now left and taken on a job at the AFL so it will be interesting to see if they can maintain that bond and smooth off field running.
Well aside from whatsapp photos and what not over in Vegas anyway...
sorry lods I just want to say that injuries and dealing with them are part good management, part rehab, part preparation, part attitude, part patience and mostly a little luck.
1I've never met an injured bloke cut down and not capable of playing at the elite level ever again no matter the column of their injuries, they usually run out of time before they run out of lives. Weiters has barely had a real problem. Harry has had more issue with concussion than his body. Charlie is unique. He's showing the ability he used to have but his form is poor and second efforts absent. More conditioning IMHO. once conditioning goes optimum performance is harder to achieve but it can come back.
Pros come back from injuries in every code. It might be we need some of these guys spending more time rehabbing and playing rather than doing any real training but only a solid pre season affords that capability. Something they all seem to have suffered with.
Zac williams has the worst injury history of the bunch. Nick haynes isnt much better. Both have played their best footy in years this season. I think Zac's durability is still a question and given we are playing for naught now, I think weve taken the opportunity to take him off before something serious happens.
I don't think I've suggested that Harry and Charlie cant still play very good football. What I'm not sure about is their ability to come back and play as good or better football than they have before. To me that's a wait and see. They may. We'll have to agree to disagree. I think that "running out of time" that you speak of is the cumulative effect of injuries and wear and tear on the body. It can happen late 20s It can happen Mid 30s Just as an example look at Nat Fyfe's last five or six years.
interesting comparison check. Fyfe's plight is arguably as much a lack of desire as it was injury. His extra curricular activities were a priority for him because thats where the money was.
How's callan ward as a better example? 2019 and 2020 he looked very much finished with ACL's at age 30. He's been able to get back and play a few years of very good footy until once again succumbing to his acl rupture this season but he looked gone 5 years ago.
Matthew kreuzer was another who's body let him down. He missed a lot more footy over the journey than any of our current crop have. Thing is he's at the club can have some convos with the guys and they will be able to make an informed decision about things.
Chris Scott has drilled Geelong - no matter who is in or out they are drilled as a squad. Chris Fagan has drilled Brisbane Craig McRae has drilled Collingwood Sam Mitchell has drilled Hawthorn Adam Kingsley has drilled GWS Hardwick has drilled GCS,
What do these coaches have in common?
They were not re employed after getting sacked.
Lyon, Brad Scott, Clarkson is banana territory
Longmuir is just an awful coach like Buckley.
There's a theme there. Ignoring the afl love children with an embarrassment of riches in the playing group and potentially some afl salary cap leeway, and the other coaches are at clubs who have a history of having their house in order.
When I look around the afl, I see a variety of teams doing various things, but what I see is the following teams seem to have an identity and brand that was built 20 years ago and a DNA that is manifesting today.
Those clubs are:
Geelong Sydney Collingwood Hawthorn Western bulldogs have joined this group sometime in the early 2000's and I remember them being an absolute basket case football club in the 90's with the odd star.
IF Richmond turn it around quickly during this rebuild and get back into finals they will also have shed their history of shambles to get back in there.
Brisbane may be part of this conversation since the Fitzroy merger. They lost their way for a bit but seem to be back.
We used to be part of this conversation but we've lost our way as a club.
The above show an air of being uber competitive and a unique brand that just keeps finding a way to dominate the competition.
Its the clubs that are making coaches successful not the other way around. The coaches lead the place whilst in charge, but ultimately they are only as successful as the club let's them be.
We as a footy club have been doing our best to make sure the afl team experiences nothing but failure. Its almost like the club goes out of its way to shoot itself in the foot. Its driven by the best intentions but its also very much a club that appears to have a bunch of people tinkering in the operation of it, with minimal strategy.
We've had one attempt at a rebuild. We appointed a coach and gave him a list strategy and then endorsed giving him a mandate to set our on field house in order. Unfortunately we weren't winning and the bottom line started being impacted as sponsors jumped off and then we had to short circuit it.
Its not the number of changes its the role and how its played. We are already not well drilled. We have a few blokes trying to learn running patterns and then add too many doing that and you demoralise the rest.
We've only played about 3 to 4 players with minimal afl experience most weeks.
I expect that to continue not because of the names but because its something Carlton hasn't had before. We tend to scorch earth rebuild, so everyone is learning together.
I cant fathom this never see it ever again. The guys we are talking about are 27 turning 28.
Most players peak at these ages, and having an injury now isnt an indicator of the future.
Its so defeatist.
It's not defeatist Thry It's facing reality. One or two may get back to a semblance of their best. Others are passed it, and are approaching the end of their careers And some have suffered significant injuries, not just once , but have had a number of seasons derailed by injury. Injuries can have a cumulative effect. When you're young you can recover quickly. As you age it takes it's toll. Injuries to a back can lead to compensatory injuries in the hamstrings, calves and feet, due to an imbalance. Some injuries are degenerative and time (and age) is the enemy.
Now in a group you may get one or two who can make a full recovery and play there best football in their late 20's early 30s. But if that group is large, the more likely result is that you've seen the best of some of these players.
Of our All-Australian players currently listed I would reckon the majority will never see AA again. And that was the point. That they'll all never reach that level again. We'll have others who will come on...but not all of that group. But time will tell
sorry lods I just want to say that injuries and dealing with them are part good management, part rehab, part preparation, part attitude, part patience and mostly a little luck.
1I've never met an injured bloke cut down and not capable of playing at the elite level ever again no matter the column of their injuries, they usually run out of time before they run out of lives. Weiters has barely had a real problem. Harry has had more issue with concussion than his body. Charlie is unique. He's showing the ability he used to have but his form is poor and second efforts absent. More conditioning IMHO. once conditioning goes optimum performance is harder to achieve but it can come back.
Pros come back from injuries in every code. It might be we need some of these guys spending more time rehabbing and playing rather than doing any real training but only a solid pre season affords that capability. Something they all seem to have suffered with.
Zac williams has the worst injury history of the bunch. Nick haynes isnt much better. Both have played their best footy in years this season. I think Zac's durability is still a question and given we are playing for naught now, I think weve taken the opportunity to take him off before something serious happens.
