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Re: The EV thread

Reply #75
There is the expectation that Governments both Fed and State have to help provide and approve infrastructure plus support the means to achieve emission targets by incentives. That does mean choosing a horse as a favourite and making a bet on the future and they have picked EV's. Eg they have pledged 75% of Govt vehicles will be EV vehicles of some description by end 2025
The NT Government are being generous unlike my home state Victoria who are giving residents SFA in comparison going by this information: https://www.novatedleaseaustralia.com.au/electric-cars/ev-incentives.
I believe Hydrogen fuel cell cars are only available to companies in Aus by lease and special order which is a shame which really only leaves EV's and their different varieties as the only option for ordinary punters unless you want to continue down the ICE path.
The Germans are having second thoughts on EV's though and the head of BMW is leading the way.....Mr Zipse didnt tell anyone though he has just done a deal with GWM to supply batteries for his EV beamers....and he wasnt truthful about the lower end of the market either because he knows BYD have entered that part of the market and are starting to sell cars.
https://fortune.com/europe/2024/02/03/germany-electric-vehicle-sales-drop-carmakers-audi-vw-bmw/


As the Toyota spokesperson (quoted in my post from a while back) said, you can’t import FCEVs when there’s no refuelling capacity.

Governments need to sit down with Toyota and Hyundai and agree on import numbers and infrastructure rollout.
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: The EV thread

Reply #76
As the Toyota spokesperson (quoted in my post from a while back) said, you can’t import FCEVs when there’s no refuelling capacity.

Governments need to sit down with Toyota and Hyundai and agree on import numbers and infrastructure rollout.
Thats fair enough,  you need refuelling infrastructure and it appears Hydrogen will need more commercial coin to make it happen.
This could be a good start....https://www.ampol.com.au/about-ampol/news-and-media/ampol-hyundai-pacific-energy-and-toyota-develop-hydrogen-infrastructure.
Ampol are also equipping their service stations with EV chargers so Energy companies dont mind having a bit each way at this stage.

Re: The EV thread

Reply #77
Mr Bean doesnt like EV's anymore....  Aussies love their big toys, meanwhile the French are weighing up the value of heavy vehicles.
https://news.sky.com/story/mr-bean-actor-rowan-atkinson-blamed-for-slow-electric-car-sales-13065947

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/06/australians-keep-buying-huge-cars-in-huge-numbers-if-we-want-to-cut-emissions-this-cant-go-on

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/paris-suv-parking-cost-could-triple-to-almost-20-per-hour/

Not sure how SUV sizeEV's being heavier due to the added battery weight fare in this parking issue, would have thought an EV would be better for clean Parisian air
but it appears they too will be paying more....very strange thinking imho.

Re: The EV thread

Reply #78
I wonder how our roads will stand up to the increased number of heavier vehicles?
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: The EV thread

Reply #79
Surely those EV parking taxes are the way around the loss of fuel excise, for now here our politicians are too scared to bill EV owners for the roads, but overseas the EU and UK are finding new and innovative ways to tax EV owners like weight.

I know this because my UK based EV owning mates are going ballistic about the increased fees and charges, they spent years gloating about the money they saved shelling out big dollars on Tesla AWD, now the chickens have come home to roost one of them is even talking about reverting to his fancy ICE ( He couldn't separate from his Lexus LC 500  no matter what the Tesla offered )
The Force Awakens!

Re: The EV thread

Reply #80
https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/design/the-big-reason-not-to-buy-an-ev-now/news-story/81d3d1cc4183b10763376841a75453b6

https://www.news.com.au/national/politics/pollution-caps-set-to-force-car-manufacturers-to-supply-low-emission-alternatives/news-story/d3987e20fa43a551b4d30261c55f1e6b

Bit of old news but relevant to the above...https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12971877/Auto-website-CarExperts-Sydney-Melbourne-road-trip-reveals-shocking-truth-EVs-cheaper-run-petrol-cars.html.

Why would you bother with the hassle of an EV unless the pollution cap scare talk pushes you to buy one and clearly the resale value and plummeting prices of EV's and depreciation means your present EV probably wont ever pay you back the difference between your EV and its equivalent petrol guzzler.

Re: The EV thread

Reply #81
Why would you bother with the hassle of an EV unless the pollution cap scare talk pushes you to buy one and clearly the resale value and plummeting prices of EV's and depreciation means your present EV probably wont ever pay you back the difference between your EV and its equivalent petrol guzzler.
I understand the environmental issues behind people's choice, and also at the moment I understand the removal of bowser shock but that might be transient based on what is happening in Europe and the UK.

What I don't get is that at the moment the political push seems to be to penalise drivers who don't or can't change rather than making the EV economically viable. By viable I mean attainable pricing for a vehicle that has a reasonable level of performance and longevity. In Australia we need more infrastructure for EV and other fuel alternatives, we will probably end up paying taxes anyway, we better push to get the services or we will pay taxes and have to fund the services privately.

Secondly, EVs inflict more wear and tear on roads than ICE vehicles, simply because weight matters and the typical EV is about 30% heavier than it's ICE equivalent. Yet at the moment only ICE vehicles foot the road tax bill mostly via tariffs, in effect all ICE drivers are subsidising EV.

People bag the old Fed and State infrastructure services, but good luck getting a modern corporate to build infrastructure in Australia. The lucky few close to big population densities or major thoroughfares might get it, but regional Australia will be abandoned, if fact it's already being abandoned on some service issues. Take a look at what is happening in regional Australia with gas, electricity and water service charges, and it's not going to get better!

Long term, if nuclear families follow the modern trend, which seems to be two adults with two adult kids staying in or returning to the nest for longer than before, homes will need 15Kw of SolarPV just to avoid drowning in energy charges. For me it could mean the missus, myself, two adult kids and perhaps even an in-law and or grandparent at the one address. Not expecting green or zero carbon energy initiates to deliver cheaper power I'll just organise for my pay packet to be redirected to Untied Energy. Might have to dig out the old unicycle, I think my helmet still has a few cable ties in place.
The Force Awakens!

Re: The EV thread

Reply #82
I understand the environmental issues behind people's choice, and also at the moment I understand the removal of bowser shock but that might be transient based on what is happening in Europe and the UK.

What I don't get is that at the moment the political push seems to be to penalise drivers who don't or can't change rather than making the EV economically viable. By viable I mean attainable pricing for a vehicle that has a reasonable level of performance and longevity. In Australia we need more infrastructure for EV and other fuel alternatives, we will probably end up paying taxes anyway, we better push to get the services or we will pay taxes and have to fund the services privately.

Secondly, EVs inflict more wear and tear on roads than ICE vehicles, simply because weight matters and the typical EV is about 30% heavier than it's ICE equivalent. Yet at the moment only ICE vehicles foot the road tax bill mostly via tariffs, in effect all ICE drivers are subsidising EV.

People bag the old Fed and State infrastructure services, but good luck getting a modern corporate to build infrastructure in Australia. The lucky few close to big population densities or major thoroughfares might get it, but regional Australia will be abandoned, if fact it's already being abandoned on some service issues. Take a look at what is happening in regional Australia with gas, electricity and water service charges, and it's not going to get better!

Long term, if nuclear families follow the modern trend, which seems to be two adults with two adult kids staying in or returning to the nest for longer than before, homes will need 15Kw of SolarPV just to avoid drowning in energy charges. For me it could mean the missus, myself, two adult kids and perhaps even an in-law and or grandparent at the one address. Not expecting green or zero carbon energy initiates to deliver cheaper power I'll just organise for my pay packet to be redirected to Untied Energy. Might have to dig out the old unicycle, I think my helmet still has a few cable ties in place.
You will more likely redirecting your money indirectly to China, Hong Kong or Singapore as they will be funding any infrastructure rebuilds and I wouldnt be writing off nuclear either given the spot price of Uranium which has been on the up.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12113647/Chinese-ownership-Australian-energy-assets-Aussies-pay-high-power-prices-China-profits.html
https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Global-Nuclear-Power-Generation-to-Hit-an-All-Time-High-in-2025.html#:~:text=The%20comeback%20of%20nuclear%20power,(IEA)%20said%20on%20Wednesday.

Re: The EV thread

Reply #83
https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/design/the-big-reason-not-to-buy-an-ev-now/news-story/81d3d1cc4183b10763376841a75453b6

https://www.news.com.au/national/politics/pollution-caps-set-to-force-car-manufacturers-to-supply-low-emission-alternatives/news-story/d3987e20fa43a551b4d30261c55f1e6b


So all the cars that are popular, that are required as fleet vehicles (Rangers, hilux, everest, prado etc) are the issue. But there is no alternative for any of them right now to buy. So who cops it in the neck? The people that need them. While the car manufacturers collect.

So what will they do?
Push out an alternative that isn't thought through, has plenty of issues, not least of which will be the 'fuel' type used and the problems that occur with it. Be that BEV and the extra pressure that adds on the grid or Hydrogen cars which you can't refuel anywhere yet.

We are trying to run before we walk.
Come up with a step by step plan to phase out ICE vehicles, and go from there.
Don't curse them and then be left scrambling for an alternative.

Re: The EV thread

Reply #84
So all the cars that are popular, that are required as fleet vehicles (Rangers, hilux, everest, prado etc) are the issue. But there is no alternative for any of them right now to buy. So who cops it in the neck? The people that need them. While the car manufacturers collect.
Here is a bloke trying to understand what is going on in the UK / EU market.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw
The interesting thing in this video was the discussion about battery degradation, I notice that degradation is worse in hot environments and by hot they mean regions that can have more than 5 consecutive days above 27°C! :o

I realise this guy is often talking a lot about high end cars, but cheaper models won't be generally be better. However, his figures would be ultra-relevant to 4WD EV.
The Force Awakens!

Re: The EV thread

Reply #85
Here's another contribution from Robert Pepper:

"The EV Pendulum

At first, EVs had short range, were expensive and short-ranged with few charging points, so largely useless. The Pendulum of Opinion was firmly Negative.

Then, EVs became cheaper, longer range, more charging options available. Takeup-rates jumped, albeit from a low base. Carmakers stopped developing ICE. Norway went EV. The Pendulum swung the other way, as some people began proclaiming the future is pure electric, ICE will be dead in five minutes, and heaping scorn on those ignorant Luddites who dared to differ, or even not wholeheartedly back the New Way.

Now the Pendulum is swinging back the other way.  EV prices are being slashed, people are looking at cost-effectiveness and not finding the answers they want.

The reality has never been indicated by the Pendulum which swings from extreme to extreme.  EVs have never been useless, but they have never been the sole answer to mobility either. 

The reality now is that EVs are far more mature than ever, and are a very real and useful mobility option for many people right now, and that number will increase into the future. There will only be more EVs on our roads into the future, not fewer.  But humanity has never used a single source for its propulsion needs and I can't see that changing with electric - synth fuels, hydrogen all have their place now and for the foreseeable future.

So don't believe the gloating "EVs are dead" articles you see any more than the zealous "EVs are the only way forwards" pieces.  Those articles are often echo-chambers, playing to their bases and also serve to inflame the emotions of those in the other camp. You can tell if something is EV-biased because it will either contain no criticism of EVs, or not admit any of their advantages."
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: The EV thread

Reply #86
Here is a bloke trying to understand what is going on in the UK / EU market.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw
The interesting thing in this video was the discussion about battery degradation, I notice that degradation is worse in hot environments and by hot they mean regions that can have more than 5 consecutive days above 27°C! :o

I realise this guy is often talking a lot about high end cars, but cheaper models won't be generally be better. However, his figures would be ultra-relevant to 4WD EV.

Ultimately, he seems to mirror my thoughts on the matter.

What we've got is not good enough. We are rushing into things without any real direction or understanding of it other than the effect of 'green washing'.

Costs plummetting once you drive it off the lot.
Efficiency falling off a cliff simply by the location you are driving and the charging style you use.

So turning what he is saying into how Australia uses these things.....
1. We are a big country, so any long trip would require plenty of charging. Unless you wanna stay in a spot for hours, you will use the fast charge option....which will ruin your battery the more you use it. If you wanna go to sydney, an 8 hour drive could turn into a weekend drive so you can protect your battery.....which is not feasible.
2. We are a hell of a lot hotter here than UK or scandanavia (wherever Bjorn was from i cannot recall) so we automatically get more degredation even if we slow charge our vehicles.
3. Even if we somehow manage to avoid parts 1 and 2 above, we are throwing money away simply by the depreciation these vehicles have and the almost non-existent 2nd hand market and overall life these vehicles have.

.......and all for a 7% reduction in CO2 emmissions, IF everyone has one and IF all the power consumed is renewable to begin with......which it really isn't even close.

So maybe its time to stop, take stock and focus on something else (hello hydrogen) which eliminates every one of the above problems and is better for the environment than these cars to begin with.


One thing i thought about which i don't think has been mentioned anywhere in this debate is Lithium......and the flow on effects of that.
Ultimately, Lithium is a finite resource. It will run out. Supply and demand ensures the price will skyrocket.
The more lithium we use in cars, the less we have for other batteries. Anything rechargable these days basically has lithium in it. Phones, AA/AAA batteries, cordless power tools and cordless outdoor power equipment, battery walls.
The cost of all of that will go up the rarer lithium becomes.

Maybe that won't happen for 200 years, or 20 years, maybe it happens in 2 years time.....don't know, but it will happen.
Why not ditch the excessive amount of batteries in these poor perfoming EVs for things that we don't have a better alternative for?

What happens when we run out of lithium. We have to redesign half our electronic equipment to alternatives.....that may be worse off and less efficient?

Re: The EV thread

Reply #87
There is lots of R&D going into non-lithium based solutions, some are potentially cheaper, lighter, pack in more energy and recharge faster, some may even be greener which isn't hard, but at the moment the new technologies have no longevity. Primarily because the new technologies haven't been around long enough yet to know exactly how the batteries age and how to fix the problems, other than predictions in simulation. Even so if they can make them much much cheaper if the weight is reduced and the longevity is 50% they might still be viable.

The longevity issue is not too bad with lithium because it's been around for decades already, they know from laptops and power tools all about how batteries age, and EV batteries are largely just massive assemblies of the very same. (Which is a why I'm so surprised people swallow the "batteries are for life" brigade.) Sure the lithium ion lose capacity, but generally how it happens is a known known.
The Force Awakens!