I know what I want to happen. I dare to dream.
Will I be having nightmares? Fill in this thread when we know.
Well, ran out of gas and bundle dropped in the last few minutes but nowhere near as bad a loss as I feared. Still gutted though and we need to regroup and refocus for next week - must win that and not let this be looked upon as an heroic loss. We made some bad errors.
Riewoldt saying some kids we heavily invested in at the draft are not looking up to it.
No prizes for guessing who fits that bill.
Then doubles up and singles out Lochie OBrien for his stuff ups.
.....but i'm being negative.
I've given up hoping... I'm now wishing
20 yrs of no success is long enough chaps.
Efficient vs Inefficient, that is all.
Riewoldt saying some kids we heavily invested in at the draft are not looking up to it.
No prizes for guessing who fits that bill.
Then doubles up and singles out Lochie OBrien for his stuff ups.
.....but i'm being negative.
Have to agree, dissapointed in a few young players and we don't have the depth to carry players even young ones.
O'Brien spent most of last year playing nothing matches in the boonies. He comes up against the reigning premiers, and is found wanting. Maybe he should be given a string of senior matches to get up to speed ? He was never going to come in and look up to speed.
O'Brien spent most of last year playing nothing matches in the boonies. He comes up against the reigning premiers, and is found wanting. Maybe he should be given a string of senior matches to get up to speed ? He was never going to come in and look up to speed.
He didn't look up to speed in the practice matches.
He has never looked up to speed.
Dow looked more up to speed in game 1 than lob does now.
I want him to succeed, I really do, but I can't fathom what the club sees in him.
You are the MC. You have 21 players picked and are looking for the 22nd.
You have LOB, cottrell and a half fit betts at your disposal. Who do you pick to help you win the game?
Disappointed again to start another season with a loss.
We looked out of puff in last quarter which is very odd considering we had a one month longer preseason then they did and have the fitness god everyone raved about.
Really liked the look of a few of the new guys. Fogarty works very hard and users it well and thought Saad also worked well into the game and was as good defensively as offensively. Both will be good pick ups based on that showing.
Walsh is an out and out star who has a tank like rob harvey. Kane Cornes just has to admit it after that display against the be eh best.
Liked plowmans game , gibbons and thought fisher was handy and looked dangerous. Cripps faded bad when we needed him most which hurt us but started like a train.
Overall all things considered we pushed the best team In it to 4 goals and if not for some
Unlikely 50 metre penalties felt more like a 2
goal loss.
We get Williams and hopefully Martin back and if we can continue to play to that level we will definitely be in the mix for a top 8 finish. Would likely have accounted for all but a top 4 team tonight imo so let’s not paint the picture we are a basket case pls.
The will is there. Rushed at some crucial times when we should have slowed it down a little. Next week will tell us more about our year. Williams will make a difference.
Disappointed again to start another season with a loss.
We looked out of puff in last quarter which is very odd considering we had a one month longer preseason then they did and have the fitness god everyone raved about.
Really liked the look of a few of the new guys. Fogarty works very hard and users it well and thought Saad also worked well into the game and was as good defensively as offensively. Both will be good pick ups based on that showing.
Walsh is an out and out star who has a tank like rob harvey. Kane Cornes just has to admit it after that display against the be eh best.
Liked plowmans game , gibbons and thought fisher was handy and looked dangerous. Cripps faded bad when we needed him most which hurt us but started like a train.
Overall all things considered we pushed the best team In it to 4 goals and if not for some
Unlikely 50 metre penalties felt more like a 2
goal loss.
We get Williams and hopefully Martin back and if we can continue to play to that level we will definitely be in the mix for a top 8 finish. Would likely have accounted for all but a top 4 team tonight imo so let’s not paint the picture we are a basket case pls.
Fogarty is a nice player but his kicking is iffy, bit of an awkward ball drop and I prefer him by hand....
Got a few players who put in the short steps tonight and thats going to hurt us if it continues, we might lose to a few less talented teams if we cant straighten a few players up..
O'Brien spent most of last year playing nothing matches in the boonies. He comes up against the reigning premiers, and is found wanting. Maybe he should be given a string of senior matches to get up to speed ? He was never going to come in and look up to speed.
Sorry PaulP, I don't know that he has any more gears to go faster.
My TV was lucky to survive that howler in the last quarter. I thought I was watching an Under 16 match for a few seconds there......
And someone please tell Harry to stop and kick a drop punt every time he marks the ball. He should have kicked 5 tonight.
In all,
we ran out of gas (why is that Mr Russell?)
made some silly errors around goal
the reigning premiers haven't lost momentum
Until the last junk time goals, we held our own despite a relentless attack. We were there abouts around the ball. The difference in the end was our slower developing kids vs seasoned hard running mids.
Not all is lost. We have plenty of growth if we had a bit of luck with injuries, and with Williams to come in.
Amazing to witness the free kick differential 😲
Well done to OMac
Speedy recovery to Jack
Richmond have nearly won more finals in the last four years than we have won H&A games (stats not checked!). They are the best.
I was expecting an 8-10 goal loss. Compared against the last few years, it was a much better effort. We could have rolled over after they kicked the last four goals of the second quarter - but we came out and got back to it in the third. Of course, the question remains, why we allow the run ons.
We got within 4 points in the last - don't think that Richmond were that comfortable.
Did we have our chances? Yes. Did we take them? Mostly not. Is everyone sick of it? Yes. Is our depth great enough? No. Is it better than it was? Yes. If we play like we did tonight, will we win more games than last season? I would like to think so.
Whilst it was an “ honourable loss” the lack of midfield pressure outside Cripps, Curnow and Walsh remains a problem and we desperately need one or more of Setterfield, Dow or SPS to fill the void
Additionally, LOB, Murphy, Casboult, Jones weren’t good enough in some crucial moments tonight and at this level that can mean the different between a win and a loss
The good news is that we will be better far better off with Martin, Williams, McGovern next week (and Dekoning soon) and I’d expect one of Cunningham or Stocker to come in also.
Shawny and I saw it ... that weak as Pi55 seton leaving the chasing to Saad for the man he let get away.
We should have traded him in 2020. He just doesn't care. Disgraceful. Get rid of him and it'll be a guaranteed improvement. Too harsh? Nup.
So close yet so far 😭😭 we need a new forwards coach #bringfevbacktocarlton
Williams might have been the difference.
All negatives aside, we carried a few passengers and could have won that.
Lots to like, a bit to work on, and considering the sheer number of outs, we did ok. We could have won had we converted better.
On the umpires, restricting forwards run at the footy has been a free kick my whole life, particularly when a free player picks off intercept marks all night.
Lots of illegal stuff by the tigers which they get away with.
For me the big difference that showed up tonight is this....
Richmond are an elite side who over the last couple of years have stayed reasonably settled and developed a great understanding of each others abilities. The click extremely well as a team.
We are not yet a settled side.
We added a few new players who played their first games for the club tonight and they showed a bit.
They'll only get better as they play more games together and with the team.
We have a couple more who will play in the next couple of weeks that will add a bit of class to the side. (Williams and Martin). Martin is still a relative newbie in terms of the 'team'.
We talk a lot about getting games into youngsters but a far more important aspect is getting games 'together'
That's when we'll see the real improvement
Some appalling umpire and player decisions would have made for a closer result had they not occurred...but we're used to that.
The umpiring we can't control, but we can certainly work on the players, and we have enough depth now that if they don't fix those brain fades and commitment issues up they'll struggle for a place.
Plenty of room for improvement as the season progresses and I suspect our last round team will be quite different in make-up to our Round 1 side
On the umpires, restricting forwards run at the footy has been a free kick my whole life, particularly when a free player picks off intercept marks all night.
Lots of illegal stuff by the tigers which they get away with.
Amen! The number of times one of the Tigers “underrated superstar” backs took an intercept mark, without H even flying for the ball (as he was being held up off the footy) was amazing. Do that to Dusty and the ump would not only pay it, but kick it for him
Shawny and I saw it ... that weak as Pi55 seton leaving the chasing to Saad for the man he let get away.
We should have traded him in 2020. He just doesn't care. Disgraceful. Get rid of him and it'll be a guaranteed improvement. Too harsh? Nup.
Agree. The thing is this is his 6th season I think. If you still have that complete lack of effort, desire, intensity now it aren’t going anywhere.
I have more faith in Dow making it then sps
Very disappointed with our centre-square work. Nankervis smashed Pitto, and hence they doubled our clearances. No wonder they got 75 inside 50s - 19 of them came directly from centre square bounces....
I'm really concerned that a number of our players are just not good enough and may never be. They all tease us with little cameo efforts but they make errors in decision & disposal that kills us everytime.
Many people have high expectations for Harry McKay but he keeps making brain-fade decisions (eg. playing on 10m from goal after marking and then getting caught) plus he refused to stick his arms out at full stretch which allowed Balta an easy spoil.
O'Brien drops a sitter of a mark under no pressure whatsoever, recovers the ball and then kicks it straight to an opposition player .... this is completely unacceptable on every level.
If Paddy Dow wants to be taken seriously as a player, then he had to nail that shot in the last from 30m out that would have put us in front.
Pittonet ran under the ball which allowed Lynch to mark unopposed and goaled, that is just rubbish and unforgivable.
The one player that is really worrying me more than anyone else is Docherty, he makes way too many fumbles & bumbles and disposal errors for a player of his experience.
Williamson looked lost for most of the night, Casboult wasn't ready, Jones made some horrible blunders (getting pinged for the deliberate point was a travesty though), Fogarty did not impress me & Setterfield has not kicked on to the level we'd like to see.
Thank god for Walsh, he was the complete 4-quarter player and Weitering was relatively quiet by his standards but did not make an error. It was a shame Silvagni got injured because he was trying his heart out before that.
Our players kept giving one too many handballs and they always came unstuck which let Richmond back in. Also, I'd like to know how many goals we kicked from set shots as opposed to the Tigers, I think you will see that there is a rather big gulf between the two.
I think the 25-point margin flattered us in the end and we are desperate for some of the guys missing tonight to get back into the team.
Disappointed on many levels and feel resigned to another year of "maybe", "what if" and "great potential" being heard.
A win would have been a bonus. Too many injuries up against the premiers. More interested in how we go next week.
Looks like yet another year of my wife saying. “They did well to only get beaten by that much!” and I can hear the same thing in the comments on here. Too many players just not good enough, yet I read comments about give them a few games in a row! I thought development was over this was the year blah blah blah would rather have a go hard at it like Cottrell in than timid over the shoulder looker O’Brien. Fumbles, poor kicking missed tackles week after week year after year from too many players. Richmond did what they do to us every year held us at arms length then stepped on the gas and pulled away. Yet we think we did alright, they knew they would win from the opening bounce and only toyed with us. Result was a four goal win, not a scrapping pressure four point anyone’s game till the siren. 4 goals.
First bloke sacked should be fitness guru Russell, been there long enough to make an impact yet we never have our best team available, never. Richmond had Cotchin out with food poisoning no injury just crook. We always run out of gas at the wrong time and bleed easy goals from tired errors.
Too many cameo kids who we hope will come good. Hope is a bloody painful thing after twenty years☹️
I'm 100 % hearing you Tommy. WTF are we gassed in red time relative to other sides, why aren't we fit enough? These are serious questions that need to be asked of Russell and the so-called conditioning people.
We've also got too many blokes that don't contribute anywhere near enough often enough When are blokes like Harry or SPS ever going to deliver on their potential? They've had enough games now, no more "potential" bs. I've never seen a player burn as many chances as Harry, plays like a millionaire but really all he's delivered is hype.
Clarkson won't tolerate SPS not putting in defensively, Doherty constantly fumbling, LOB looking around instead of just doing what's required or Harry spraying it like a 2 y.o. toilet training.... Seconds the following week and culled end of the year.
Sorry PaulP, I don't know that he has any more gears to go faster.
My TV was lucky to survive that howler in the last quarter. I thought I was watching an Under 16 match for a few seconds there......
And someone please tell Harry to stop and kick a drop punt every time he marks the ball. He should have kicked 5 tonight.
AFL/VFL history is littered with top 10 picks that haven't made it, and LOB may well be of those. All I'm saying is after 12 months in nothing land twiddling his thumbs, he was always going to be rusty, and his confidence is probably quite low as well. His first season was our worst season in history (2018) and 2019 was, well..............never mind. He was at least getting games, but it's not an ideal development environment. I'm saying is that he needs a good block of games and for the club to really back him, then at the mid point of the season we will be in a much better position to judge.
And frankly I'm a lot more worried about SpS than LOB.
I was also expecting a bigger loss, and those last couple of goals by the Tigers gave a false impression of the gap between the teams. There's still work to be done, but our best 22 would have made it very interesting. The Tigers will do a lot more damage than that to better teams than us this season, don't worry about that.
Good effort, and at last we have a few decent raw materials to work with.
Still too many doing too little....
Could have, arguably should have....didn't.
Very disappointed with our centre-square work. Nankervis smashed Pitto, and hence they doubled our clearances. No wonder they got 75 inside 50s - 19 of them came directly from centre square bounces....
Yep, stated happening just before 1/2-time, the writing was on the wall for anybody cared to look.
First bloke sacked should be fitness guru Russell, been there long enough to make an impact yet we never have our best team available, never.
His supposed halo has fallen.
His supposed halo has fallen.
Came blame Russell for the mc selections.
He can't train 'heart'
...and there was a couple lacking....and everyone else had to lift and cover.
Time to groom Stocker as a BP as a prelude to a FT midfield role, akin to how it was done for Brett Ratten. SPS isnt up to it. He's had his run of games to get up to speed and hasn't.
Plenty of contenders for LOBs spot - cottrell, Carroll being two.
Kennedy for JSOS.
It's a long season, and our guys should be finding ways to win when underdone, which I think from the pre-season efforts was clearly the case.
I suspect that slight underdone state is deliberate, given they want to target playing finals.
This new rule it's going to be interesting to see which club's can sustain that intensity for extended periods, if any can!
Time to groom Stocker as a BP as a prelude to a FT midfield role, akin to how it was done for Brett Ratten.
Is Stocker fit enough to play 4-Qtrs under these new rules, maybe the time is right to let him stretch his wings and he can be sub'd at 1/2-time, before they change this rule again?
Been saying it for years, we need small defenders who can defend as well as rebound. All those types are converted mids as you don't draft BPs.
But, at least we had Murphy's pressure and experience...
In all,
we ran out of gas (why is that Mr Russell?)
made some silly errors around goal
the reigning premiers haven't lost momentum
Until the last junk time goals, we held our own despite a relentless attack. We were there abouts around the ball. The difference in the end was our slower developing kids vs seasoned hard running mids.
Not all is lost. We have plenty of growth if we had a bit of luck with injuries, and with Williams to come in.
Amazing to witness the free kick differential 😲
Well done to OMac
Speedy recovery to Jack
Season is a marathon, not a sprint. The good fitness people have you ready at the right time.
Did see plenty. Once we have a win we will be on our way. Issues from last year, where we lose composure at important times possibly costing us a finals spot, are still there.
A few players had shockers.
All will be better for the run.
LOB shouldn't play 1s again till he has kicked a dozen doors over in the 2s.
His lack of composure is staggering...
It's a long season, and our guys should be finding ways to win when underdone, which I think from the pre-season efforts was clearly the case.
I suspect that slight underdone state is deliberate, given they want to target playing finals.
This new rule it's going to be interesting to see which club's can sustain that intensity for extended periods, if any can!
Perhaps, but why would you follow an underdone path given the opening 6 rounds are crucial to our chances?
Setterfield was disappointing and needs to take a long hard look at himself with that effort in the back pocket. LOB and SPS are copping it and rightly so but we can't carry players who won't attack the ball properly.
We are still a soft team with too much left to too few and highlights the difference between those players and the ones who do commit to the contest each week like Sam Walsh..
A few players had shockers.
All will be better for the run.
LOB shouldn't play 1s again till he has kicked a dozen doors over in the 2s.
His lack of composure is staggering...
He is finished imo and I'd be trying other kids like Stocker, Cottrell, Honey..
The effort deserved better than a 4 goal defeat, yes we ran out of tickets and to a point it's unacceptable, however game running can not be replicated, if this is still the case in round 5 then i'll be concerned.
The main difference between the two sides was the midfields willingness to run both ways, Richmond had 6 players streaming back to clog up their back line, we had our mids jogging 10 meters behind their opponent, I look at Dow, Setterfield and the biggest culprit CRIPPS! Cripps is only effective if he gets first hand on the ball which was impossible when middle of the road Nankervis was creaming Pitonett at centre bounces getting taps to dangerous places, and of course Dow & Cripps were flat footed every time.
Can someone please explain why when our captain (Docherty) was kneeling down, getting to his feet and show pony half heart Bolton pushes him with two hands in the head, only O'Brien came in to remonstrate, who got grabbed by Nankervis and didn't take a backward step either. Just poor team ethos.
There is not enough team in Carlton at the moment, one in all in.
Great - Walsh, our shining light and beacon of hope, runs all day and has no fear.
Good - Fisher, Gibbons, Saad, Weitering
Decent - Cripps, Silvagni, McDonald, Fogerty, Murphy, Newnes, Ploughman, Curnow
Poor - McKay, Casboult, Dow, Pitonett, Setterfield, Docherty, Jones
Terrible - Williamson, O'Brien, SPS
For Collingwood - Stocker for Williamson. Williams for O'Brien. Martin for Silvagni. SPS gets a reprieve only just. Maybe McDonald for Casboult too. Cunningham can sub.
I was waiting all last season to see Willo go back to his rookie form and it hasn't happen, I'm thinking it may never.
O'Brien needs to get back to VFL and use his running up and back, he played some good games at the end of 2019 using his run and this new game will suit him if the confidence back.
Casboult needs a run or two at a lower level to get his touch back, how many times did he drop an easy mark?
I didn't go into the game with much hope, but through the game we were more than competitive, in big stretches. We kicked ourselves out of the game in the third quarter when we had control of the game, Richmond had control in the second half of the second quarter and they kicked goals, we kicked points.
A lot to like about parts of the game, however as some have said.... different year, same game.
I think we did as well as expected.
They have won 3 of the last 4 flags and have the greatest player of all time and we were missing a quarter of our best side.
Take out Williamson, Murphy and O'Brien and bring in Williams, Martin and Betts. We win.
It was a weak and insipid display EB from a supposed senior player. I'd rather play short than include him ....
A massive waste of a draft pick.
Just get rid of the three letter acronyms, LOB and SPS, next week and we'll be looking a lot better.
Just get rid of the three letter acronyms, LOB and SPS, next week and we'll be looking a lot better.
What about mcg?
What about mcg?
Not sure about that one. I think if the first two are fixed maybe we can handle the third?
Same old, same old.
Twice we allowed a succession of unanswered goals... the first succession effectively being the difference (4 in a row end of first qtr from Tiggers)... does that seem familiar. No different to last year.
You can only go by what we saw last night. And we saw the same 'promising', 'brave', 'competitive' unit that we saw most weeks last year. Same old, same old.
When in the 2nd qtr we led by 2 goals, we couldn't build on that lead... it does not seem to be in our culture - ruthlessness. Instead, from that moment on we kicked 5 gls, to the Tiggers 11 gls.
No way do LOB and SPS deserve to be selected again for next week. Fogarty was serviceable, but we need a lot more convincing.
So, we have obvious personnel problems and still have concentration/focus issues, culturally.
The thrashing we got out of the middle was embarrassing. Who's the midfield coach? Also, delivery to the forward line was appalling from the usual suspects. Saad's skills by foot should be studied by other players.
Yes, I know it is only R1. Yes, I know we played the Tiggers. But, 'Catch-up Carlton' was on display, again... giving sides a burst of unanswered to goals to effectively win the game... but, by golly, we are great at showing character to 'catch-up' and almost win - it's still there.
It's as if by having exactly the same coaching group we are expecting things to change!
There will be no proof of progress for this group until we win at least 5 games in a row, against bona fide opposition WITHOUT, a lapse (which allows the opponents to kick somewhere between 4-7 unanswered goals - apologies for the repetition on this point).
Next week?
Kennedy for SOJ.
Williams for LOB.
Martin for SPS.
And who goes out for Eddie?
As a side note, notice how with Cotchin out, how Dusty (and others) took it on himself (themselves) to do even more to cover for the loss of his/their skipper... it's in the culture at TiggerLand.
It was a weak and insipid display EB from a supposed senior player. I'd rather play short than include him ....
A massive waste of a draft pick.
Cap.. You don't have to have massive talent to be effective. Cottrell is limited but gives you max effort, Dusty and Reiwoldt would still have won the game for Richmond because they are better than anything we have in their respective positions but having 22 players all attacking the ball hard will get you finals with the talent we have.
Richmond bludged off our mistakes and punished us everytime. Aarts is probably their weakest player, didn't do a lot but with few mistakes. Our weakest were poor with plenty of mistakes and turn overs..
Shawny and I saw it ... that weak as Pi55 seton leaving the chasing to Saad for the man he let get away.
We should have traded him in 2020. He just doesn't care. Disgraceful. Get rid of him and it'll be a guaranteed improvement. Too harsh? Nup.
Doesn't know the meaning of the word 'desperate' and rarely chases with any intensity.
Credit to Oscar Mcdonald, gave us something and is better than I thought.Competes well and plays like it matters, deserves to be in the 22 next week and was a handy pickup.
Again its about competing well and less about talent, he is no world beater but puts himself in and gives effort.
I copped a lot of flak for my 'negative' comments in regards to lob pre game and during the game.
How many of you are thinking he deserves a game next week?
If yes, how many of you said yes simply because you think he needs more time in the 1s to get a good run at it.
Anyone left? I'd like to hear your reasoning.
Very disappointed with our centre-square work. Nankervis smashed Pitto, and hence they doubled our clearances. No wonder they got 75 inside 50s - 19 of them came directly from centre square bounces....
Too true - Pitto is good around the ground but not so good in the centre square ruck contests.
Too true - Pitto is good around the ground but not so good in the centre square ruck contests.
I was providing stats to the contrary last year.
His hit outs to advantage stats were elite. Better than Gawn and Grundy in that area.
Only freak athletes (like nic nat) had better in that area....but offered less elsewhere by comparison.
I copped a lot of flak for my 'negative' comments in regards to lob pre game and during the game.
How many of you are thinking he deserves a game next week?
If yes, how many of you said yes simply because you think he needs more time in the 1s to get a good run at it.
Anyone left? I'd like to hear your reasoning.
He wasn't good, but neither were a bunch of our other kids including Fisher, they looked panicked when carrying the football. Fogarty gets a pass for the whole season, yet he looked more composed than Fisher, LOB, SPS, Dow and a bunch of others.
Having said that, I can't say Doc, Saad or Plowman were particularly better across the 4 quarters, Saad looked scratchy early, but they were also effective in other ways because they find a way to impact the contest.
The old blokes were pretty good under pressure, sMurph, Newnes, Ed ven Cripps who is not really a great kick, a couple of times they too looked bad, but mostly that was because of their target sitting back waiting for the footy rather than attacking it.
Our tall blokes had the fumbles, except for McDonald all our talls either couldn't hold on, juggled or ran under the footy. Fans might not think the juggling is a big deal, but it is because even when it comes off it momentarily stops momentum. We looked like deer in the headlights, part of this is because Nthmond get away with some horrendous tactics, they hardly ever get pinged for punching blokes in the ribs or head, we saw it multiple times. Jones, Casboult, Pittonet had shockers, Big H was ordinary despite clunking a few and he could have easily clunked 3 or 4 more and had an extra 3 or 4 goals, if not for the fumbles.
I was providing stats to the contrary last year.
His hit outs to advantage stats were elite. Better than Gawn and Grundy in that area.
Only freak athletes (like nic nat) had better in that area....but offered less elsewhere by comparison.
Who you achieve it against makes a difference, Nankervis was supposed to be underdone and rushed back from pre-season injury due to Nthmond's spate of injured talls, Nankervis didn't look to be moving very well, had trouble bending over to pick up the footy, and yet he's ripped Pittonet a new one! It should have been a Nil-All draw at worst, but it wasn't we lost that battle resoundingly.
@kruddler PS: I don't think you mean stats this time last year, this time last year Pittonet didn't play! Kreuzer and Casboult rucked, didn't Kreuzer get injured in Rnd 1?
One of the things we like to see as each new season starts is that little flash or glimmer where a player will do something we haven't seen him do before.
It's an indication that they've taken a step forward since the previous season.
A couple of slick passes and a bit of speed in a rundown chase by Silvagni is an example.
Jack looked set for a good year and hopefully that shoulder injury isn't as bad as has been suggested.
The problem for players like Dow, O'Brien and even SPS, is that over the seasons we haven't really seen that change to a new level.
You could take last night's performance and there wouldn't be a lot of difference to any of their games in their previous years.
They tease with an adequate (sometimes even good) performance now and then but it's often in a low pressure game.
We need to see that extra spark (many of us believe it may be there)....but it's becoming less and less likely it will occur.
I think the game will evolve in coming weeks, this pace under the new rules isn't sustainable, teams won't be able to recover if they keep playing at that intensity week after week. Every week would be like a GF.
If they try to keep playing like this we'll probably see runs/bursts of wins and losses from teams, the season will be a rollercoaster of fatigue versus recovery.
The long term solution is for coaches to find some new match day tactics, but don't hold your breath on that one!
Who you achieve it against makes a difference, Nankervis was supposed to be underdone and rushed back from pre-season injury due to Nthmond's spate of injured talls, Nankervis didn't look to be moving very well, had trouble bending over to pick up the footy, and yet he's ripped Pittonet a new one! It should have been a Nil-All draw at worst, but it wasn't we lost that battle resoundingly.
@kruddler PS: I don't think you mean stats this time last year, this time last year Pittonet didn't play! Kreuzer and Casboult rucked, didn't Kreuzer get injured in Rnd 1?
Last year....for the year....at least half of it. Not a single game.
https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=5066.0
I'm surprised you don't remember... you spent a lot of time arguing over my made up stats because you couldn't comprehend how deduction and %'s worked
And frankly I'm a lot more worried about SpS than LOB.
Been worried about SPS since day dot, ship him off at years end please.
Been worried about SPS since day dot, ship him off at years end please.
I've made this point before, but as repetition is one of my core competencies, I'll say it again. What we see as fans (i.e SPS being soft etc.) may be symptomatic of our own biases and assumptions. I've heard Teague say on more than one occasion that he wants a balance of some players in the contest and others on their feet ready for the receive and distribution. Teague has said a few times he doesn't want too many getting sucked in to the ball. That's the only legit thing I can think of as to why SPS plays the way he does. He is one of our better distributors, and he may simply be playing to instruction. I don't personally believe that Teague or Bolton or anyone else would tolerate not putting in, I do not believe that SPS would have survived this long, and I don't believe he would continue to get senior games if that were the case. I don't believe the coaches are blind, and I don't believe he is a protected species.
I thought it odd last night how we used Setterfield, he looked primed in the pre-season to play inside, and he barely got a run at stoppages.
I thought it odd last night how we used Setterfield, he looked primed in the pre-season to play inside, and he barely got a run at stoppages.
After his effort in the backpocket I can see why..
After his effort in the backpocket I can see why..
The bigger question, is perhaps how does a player like Setterfield end up defending one out in the back-pocket?
Teague and his MC have to answer that.
How can it be a HB, BP and recycled KPD kick almost half our goals?
I can't say Cripps would do better in that circumstance, he'd perhaps just give away a free or miss a target too?
The ways to fail are myriad.
@PaulP Hear what you say Paul but I find to be one of the most frustrating and irritating players to watch. Can be brilliant but makes mistakes and at critical times. His distribution can be good but often lacks penetration and puts his targets under pressure. Doesn't always show the urgency and ferocity in defence and too often looks too lazy to chase. I'm afraid I'm over him.
@PaulP
Hear what you say Paul but I find to be one of the most frustrating and irritating players to watch. Can be brilliant but makes mistakes and at critical times. His distribution can be good but often lacks penetration and puts his targets under pressure. Doesn't always show the urgency and ferocity in defence and too often looks too lazy to chase. I'm afraid I'm over him.
If what you and others say is true, then we have big problems at the club, because what you and others are implying is that the coaches are either corrupt or incompetent. In my view there can be no other explanation. I don't buy the "we have no on else to select" argument. We've had 4 trade periods to move him on if he was that bad.
@PaulP
Hear what you say Paul but I find to be one of the most frustrating and irritating players to watch. Can be brilliant but makes mistakes and at critical times. His distribution can be good but often lacks penetration and puts his targets under pressure. Doesn't always show the urgency and ferocity in defence and too often looks too lazy to chase. I'm afraid I'm over him.
I'd very much like to see him out of defence. We don't need him there and he's not that good in that role.
Season is a marathon, not a sprint. The good fitness people have you ready at the right time.
Does that mean the tigers were also underdone too as they know there making the finals and will peak then?
For us we need to be at full throttle from the start and pinch games from finals contenders now not sit back and hope the leaders in the marathon don’t get over the hill and out of sight
From the win by our reserves yesterday:
BESTS
Carlton: Williams, Cottrell, Kennedy, Stocker, Betts, Wooller, Delaney, Stoddart
Encouraging.
If what you and others say is true, then we have big problems at the club, because what you and others are implying is that the coaches are either corrupt or incompetent. In my view there can be no other explanation. I don't buy the "we have no on else to select" argument. We've had 4 trade periods to move him on if he was that bad.
I'll leave the implications to you, I am just commenting on what I actually see on the field of play.
I'll leave the implications to you, I am just commenting on what I actually see on the field of play.
No doubt. One thing others have intimated and I agree with, is that we have yet to see the best of SPS, purely and simply because he is being played out of position, in order to benefit the team ? Perhaps the coaches are aware that it's a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul, and now with Saad and others playing the SPS defensive type role, he may be moved somewhere more suitable ? I feel the frustration, I'm just putting things out there other than he's crap, lazy, disinterested, soft etc.
In the early days SPS looked our most exciting, skilful recruit but I feel like the club has reduced him to this robot like player that doesn’t take it on, doesn’t veer from what I feel he’s instructed to do and probably isnt enjoying his footy as much because of that.
Why isn’t he either in the middle creating something or up forward bouncing around the pack? I feel he’s wasted where he is and his output shows this.
No doubt. One thing others have intimated and I agree with, is that we have yet to see the best of SPS, purely and simply because he is being played out of position, in order to benefit the team ? Perhaps the coaches are aware that it's a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul, and now with Saad and others playing the SPS defensive type role, he may be moved somewhere more suitable ? I feel the frustration, I'm just putting things out there other than he's crap, lazy, disinterested, soft etc.
I'm open to persuasion on this. As soon as he shows otherwise I'll be delighted to applaud him. Been waiting a while though.
He shirks the contest.
I've made this point before, but as repetition is one of my core competencies, I'll say it again. What we see as fans (i.e SPS being soft etc.) may be symptomatic of our own biases and assumptions. I've heard Teague say on more than one occasion that he wants a balance of some players in the contest and others on their feet ready for the receive and distribution. Teague has said a few times he doesn't want too many getting sucked in to the ball. That's the only legit thing I can think of as to why SPS plays the way he does. He is one of our better distributors, and he may simply be playing to instruction. I don't personally believe that Teague or Bolton or anyone else would tolerate not putting in, I do not believe that SPS would have survived this long, and I don't believe he would continue to get senior games if that were the case. I don't believe the coaches are blind, and I don't believe he is a protected species.
I must be watching a different player to the coaches, he missed Murphy last night from 10-15m away, he doesn't this all the time IMO. I don't share everyone love for this bloke, never have. SPS epitomises where we are at, we have too many that don't contribute enough for long enough. Richmond to man showed us what it takes to win arm wrestles.
And Ill just say this, Doc better fix the fumbles or he can play in the twos also.
I must be watching a different player to the coaches, he missed Murphy last night from 10-15m away, he doesn't this all the time IMO. I don't share everyone love for this bloke, never have. SPS epitomises where we are at, we have too many that don't contribute enough for long enough..................................................
As I said, if this is true, then we have much bigger problems than Sam the Bullfighting Man. What you're basically saying is that the club in general and successive coaches tolerate both mediocrity and half heartedness. SPS is now coming into his 5th season. It's not like he's a newbie.
Here's what liked:
1. SOS - until he injured his shoulder loved his attack and desperation, gives a crap.
2. Fogs - Will be a beauty for us.
3. Saad - worth what we gave up.
4. Crippa - He's back.
5. Fish - Started where he left off last year.
6. Plow - Did very well on the superstar Dusty.
7. OMac - Earnt his spot on the list, made an impact.
8. Walsh - Gets better every game and has added size and grunt
9. General Ball movement and competitiveness
Dislikes
1. Dow - went quite/missing in the 2nd half after a promising start.
2. LOB - see Dow
3. Murph -See LOB
4. Doc - out of form and needs to fix it fast
5. H - Play the darken %'s son.
6. General attack on the ball and man - I hope they noted how Rich are manic at trying to spoil, we seem to sit off and watch a lot.
nothing has changed ,outnumbered at contest on the wing ,in our fwd line,but my fav is when we kick the ball in from fullback to carlton player outnumbered by the opposition only to comeback resulting in a easy goal ,happening for years .Our coaches wat have they learned over the years .We should not be happy by this lose and now MUST beat ferals or the media knives start to get sharpen already.
Dislikes
1. Dow - went quite/missing in the 2nd half after a promising start.
Off for a large chunk in the 3rd and finished with 69% time on ground. Any one know the reason for this?
Felt a lot like Groundhog day watching that - to my eyes there was way too much of the same old bad stuff from too many players. I liked the games of Saad and Fogarty simply because it was different [and better] than the stuff from usual suspects.
Interesting stat for me was the inside 50's - it was 22-24 at half time our way. Second half was 53-17 and we got run over the top of and could hardly move the ball past the centre. Our defence actually held up pretty well when you look at the weight of possession and territory they had in the second half, and the fact that we were so close mid way through the 4th qtr was actually incredible. But if you give any team 75 looks inside 50 & 39 shots on goal you are likely to get around 20 goals scored against you and you are no chance of winning. We were very efficient inside 50 [and missed a bunch of sitters as well] which was encouraging.
Overall - more negatives than positives for me.
An associate went last night, I was interested in a comment he made mostly because Hodge mentioned much the same during the broadcast.
My associate can't understand why we pressed forward so aggressively when we were a couple of goals up. He says Nthmond flood back so hard so quickly they were basically out-numbered behind the ball. We often had 2 or 3 spares in our defensive half.
We could have taken all the time in the world to move the ball sideways or backwards to make our next move forward, we could rotate players in and out of the F50 and pick the kicker. But he thought we rushed it into attack and turned it over, when there was no need to go forward in a rush at all!
In that moment behind the footy, we need a Stocker type, someone who can kick the lights out!
An associate went last night, I was interested in a comment he made mostly because Hodge mentioned much the same during the broadcast.
My associate can't understand why we pressed forward so aggressively when we were a couple of goals up. He says Nthmond flood back so hard so quickly they were basically out-numbered behind the ball. We often had 2 or 3 spares in our defensive half.
We could have taken all the time in the world to move the ball sideways or backwards to make our next move forward, we could rotate players in and out of the F50 and pick the kicker. But he thought we rushed it into attack and turned it over, when there was no need to go forward in a rush at all!
In that moment behind the footy, we need a Stocker type, someone who can kick the lights out!
I think the answer is this, Richmond don't give you time. If you chip chip switch sideways etc with them, they will pressure and harass you into a TO all day long and make you pay. Move it quick against them and you're a chance. I noticed when we won quick ball out of the centre and got it into the F50 direct and fast, their defenders were exposed. We kicked a couple in a row doing it at one stage. We didn't win enough ball in the middle IMO.
I think the answer is this, Richmond don't give you time. If you chip chip switch sideways etc with them, they will pressure and harass you into a TO all day long and make you pay. Move it quick against them and you're a chance. I noticed when we won quick ball out of the centre and got it into the F50 direct and fast, their defenders were exposed. We kicked a couple in a row doing it at one stage. We didn't win enough ball in the middle IMO.
Yes we struggled much of the time getting good ball out of the middle, in fact Crippa was well held after halftime. Maybe Williams and to a degree Martin will improve us here.
Felt a lot like Groundhog day watching that - to my eyes there was way too much of the same old bad stuff from too many players. I liked the games of Saad and Fogarty simply because it was different [and better] than the stuff from usual suspects.
Interesting stat for me was the inside 50's - it was 22-24 at half time our way. Second half was 53-17 and we got run over the top of and could hardly move the ball past the centre. Our defence actually held up pretty well when you look at the weight of possession and territory they had in the second half, and the fact that we were so close mid way through the 4th qtr was actually incredible. But if you give any team 75 looks inside 50 & 39 shots on goal you are likely to get around 20 goals scored against you and you are no chance of winning. We were very efficient inside 50 [and missed a bunch of sitters as well] which was encouraging.
Overall - more negatives than positives for me.
Exactamundo.
Yes we struggled much of the time getting good ball out of the middle, in fact Crippa was well held after halftime. Maybe Williams and to a degree Martin will improve us here.
Williams definitely will, Martin was ordinary in the two praccy matches, here's hoping he is a "real games" player and turns it on in the season proper (assuming he gets over the calf).
I think the answer is this, Richmond don't give you time. If you chip chip switch sideways etc with them, they will pressure and harass you into a TO all day long and make you pay. Move it quick against them and you're a chance. I noticed when we won quick ball out of the centre and got it into the F50 direct and fast, their defenders were exposed. We kicked a couple in a row doing it at one stage. We didn't win enough ball in the middle IMO.
Agree.
I'll add to that with our kicking skills can leave a bit to be desired at the best of times. Under the pressure (percieved or otherwise) of the premiers hunting us, perhaps it was beyond us.
Its reasons like the above as to why i was so 'down' on us before the game. As a side, we still have a lot of improvement to go....including game management.
We really lack leadership don’t we.
What team gets to within a goal of the best team in the comp with 10 mins to go and yet at that very stage looks shot and like there is no spark or energy to will themselves to every contest to cause the upset.
There was under a goal in it with only half a quarter to go yet we looked flat. HTF does that happen? We were calling for someone to impose themself yet apart for Walsh and maybe Saad no one else seemed to be willing to gut run at the end. Never going to beat a team like tigers unless you take your opportunities and when the moment is there you lift up and give everything you have to take it.
Cripps was flat as a tack too and I was disappointed in our captain in the middle during the second half of the last quarter. Give us nothing.
Yeah I know the kids were bad no argument there but when your so close so late yet never really look like they will do anything to win, that’s the big disappointment and concern going forward for me.
We really lack leadership don’t we.
What team gets to within a goal of the best team in the comp with 10 mins to go and yet at that very stage looks shot and like there is no spark or energy to will themselves to every contest to cause the upset.
There was under a goal in it with only half a quarter to go yet we looked flat. HTF does that happen? We were calling for someone to impose themself yet apart for Walsh and maybe Saad no one else seemed to be willing to gut run at the end. Never going to beat a team like tigers unless you take your opportunities and when the moment is there you lift up and give everything you have to take it.
Cripps was flat as a tack too and I was disappointed in our captain in the middle during the second half of the last quarter. Give us nothing.
Yeah I know the kids were bad no argument there but when your so close so late yet never really look like they will do anything to win, that’s the big disappointment and concern going forward for me.
Yep. And listening to Hodge's comments he lays it out chapter and verse where we are lacking here.
Yep. And listening to Hodge's comments he lays it out chapter and verse where we are lacking here.
I missed that cookie. Can you elaborate on what Hodge said.
We really lack leadership don’t we.
What team gets to within a goal of the best team in the comp with 10 mins to go and yet at that very stage looks shot and like there is no spark or energy to will themselves to every contest to cause the upset.
There was under a goal in it with only half a quarter to go yet we looked flat. HTF does that happen? We were calling for someone to impose themself yet apart for Walsh and maybe Saad no one else seemed to be willing to gut run at the end. Never going to beat a team like tigers unless you take your opportunities and when the moment is there you lift up and give everything you have to take it.
Cripps was flat as a tack too and I was disappointed in our captain in the middle during the second half of the last quarter. Give us nothing.
Yeah I know the kids were bad no argument there but when your so close so late yet never really look like they will do anything to win, that’s the big disappointment and concern going forward for me.
Cripps was manned up tighter in the 2nd half and we dont have another coalface mid to throw in the middle. Tigers got right on top led by Bolton, Lambert and Graham. We could argue Williams was missing but Tiger fans would argue so was Cotchin, apart from Walsh we were disappointing after half time in the middle especially when Pittonet tired.
A real missing key is TDK, Casboult isnt good enough to restrict a player like Nankervis and TDK could have swung the game our way more even than having Williams, Martin, Betts in IMHO.
Casboult and Ed Curnow are two players who we need to look at a bit closer when we have a full fit list, not sure when that will be but both look like the expiry date might be sooner than later.
Casboult and Ed Curnow are two players who we need to look at a bit closer when we have a full fit list, not sure when that will be but both look like the expiry date might be sooner than later.
If you have Ed, you've gotta have Murphy too.
Ed still does Ed things.....and thats team first, body on the line, gut running....every contest. He stays until his replacement can do that too.
I think Cottrell is his replacement personally, and i'd be picking him before LOB in the future.
If you have Ed, you've gotta have Murphy too.
Ed still does Ed things.....and thats team first, body on the line, gut running....every contest. He stays until his replacement can do that too.
I think Cottrell is his replacement personally, and i'd be picking him before LOB in the future.
I don’t understand the support for Cottrell. Apart from one match winning grab and goal I’ve seen very little to suggest he is anything but a hard nut lacking a footy brain with very limited ability.
I knew that sounds harsh but I just don’t see it with him.
Stocker or Kennedy are better options imo to play that role imo
I missed that cookie. Can you elaborate on what Hodge said.
Throughout the game he was pointing out our dumb moves, lack of awareness, poor tactics, inability to control the pace of the game etc. All, to me anyway, signs of a leadership vacuum. I'm sure if we had his onfield leadership we would be a much better team.
I don’t understand the support for Cottrell. Apart from one match winning grab and goal I’ve seen very little to suggest he is anything but a hard nut lacking a footy brain with very limited ability.
I knew that sounds harsh but I just don’t see it with him.
Stocker or Kennedy are better options imo to play that role imo
Thats 1 more string than LOB. ;)
He has a huge tank, a hard body and a defensive mindset.......that screams tagger to me. As i said, an Ed replacement.
If not him, who takes over the tagging role from Ed? Kennedy is too slow. Stocker is an option, but we haven't seen enough of him i don't think.
Cripps was manned up tighter in the 2nd half and we dont have another coalface mid to throw in the middle. Tigers got right on top led by Bolton, Lambert and Graham. We could argue Williams was missing but Tiger fans would argue so was Cotchin, apart from Walsh we were disappointing after half time in the middle especially when Pittonet tired.
A real missing key is TDK, Casboult isnt good enough to restrict a player like Nankervis and TDK could have swung the game our way more even than having Williams, Martin, Betts in IMHO.
Casboult and Ed Curnow are two players who we need to look at a bit closer when we have a full fit list, not sure when that will be but both look like the expiry date might be sooner than later.
I understand what your saying EB with Cripps being manned up but this is a guy we all high in very high regard, he is our captain and he plays in the middle which is critical when the match is in the balance.
I’m not excusing him. I expect him to have some impact or at least show the effort you expect from your captain at that critical moment.
He looked flat and tired imo and like I said only Walsh seemed willing to bust his nut when the game was winnable with 10 mins to go.
I’ve seen this more then a few times from Cripps last year as well. Starts like a machine then when the opposition come at us or when we really need a lift he is rarely the one to provide it.
And doc is sadly not half the player he was. I still have a big soft spot for doc and hope he can retain the touch he had but looks a bit unsure of himself at times which is hard to watch
Throughout the game he was pointing out our dumb moves, lack of awareness, poor tactics, inability to control the pace of the game etc. All, to me anyway, signs of a leadership vacuum. I'm sure if we had his onfield leadership we would be a much better team.
I don't think its a leadership vacuum exactly.
I think it is a sign of a lack of stability....both off field and on.....for years.
Tigers have had the same coach for a decade....and the same players play each week, year after year. Dusty himself said they are self motivated. They are on auto-pilot, playing on instinct. We have to think about every step we take.
I don't think its a leadership vacuum exactly.
I think it is a sign of a lack of stability....both off field and on.....for years.
Tigers have had the same coach for a decade....and the same players play each week, year after year. Dusty himself said they are self motivated. They are on auto-pilot, playing on instinct. We have to think about every step we take.
K, we lack maturity and nous? A Hodge type leader would be invaluable atm .
K, we lack maturity and nous? A Hodge type leader would be invaluable atm .
Of course it would help...
What i'm saying is blokes playing together every week, under the same coach every year will bring some familiarity that would have a similar benefit.
If you have Ed, you've gotta have Murphy too.
Ed still does Ed things.....and thats team first, body on the line, gut running....every contest. He stays until his replacement can do that too.
I think Cottrell is his replacement personally, and i'd be picking him before LOB in the future.
I prefer Cottrell to LOB but you cant rock up vs Richmond with Cottrell as one of your main mids IMHO, Ed has his uses for tagging but I think we need to field a more damaging midfield than relying on taggers to stop the opposition.
Most of the goods teams have too many good mids to tag now anyway and we need to bat deeper with quality in the middle.
I think Dow has to be persevered with for this reason and a player like Stocker introduced into our midfield setup.
Fogarty was handy also and I think the need for Ed and Murphy has passed...a player like Gibbons is now more useful than Murphy IMO. You can argue on Murphys toughness etc like some do but IMO we now have players like Gibbons, Fogarty who can do his role and its purely down to what players contribute on a consistent basis and what potential to move to the next level they have.
Ed, Murphy and Eddie Betts are all in that category of potentially holding other younger players back now as is Casboult.
I dont think you can play them all when we have a full fit list...
Late to the party as usual but similar observations.....too much left to too few....poor skills and decision making at critical times....and too many looked absolutely buggered too early in the game. Richmond have won 3 of the last 4 flags for a reason and for a lot of the night, we weren't that far off them. But we just don't seem to know how to finish off the hard work.
Cripps/Walsh were superb. Cripps tired towards the end but some of his battering ram stuff was fantastic to watch.
Saad showed he'll be a fantastic pick up and will only get better.
Said it just after the teams were announced that I was staggered McDonald wasn't picked in the starting lineup...and he proved it.
Casboult looked unfit and slow and will be under pressure to hold his spot during the year if TDK gets back and McDonald is in.
Dow looked a lot better and deserves a few more games. Can't say the same for O'Brien unfortunately.
Docherty is a shadow of the AA defender he was before those knee injuries and turns it over too much.
I like Williamson and he has a crack but absolutely zero right foot.
Commented during the week about SPS and the pressure being on him....you can be laconic and still make a huge contribution...some players can do it. He looks laconic and contributes SFA at the moment.
Setterfield doesn't get enough of it and backed out of a contest which is never a good look.
McKay....2.3 and one nothing score from the attempted play on. If he's going to kick 40+ goals as some are suggesting, he's going to have to have a few breakout games. Always trying to kick around corners.
Williams and Martin in next week will bolster us considerably. Assuming Silvagni is injured and misses, then LOB probably goes out as well along with maybe SPS and McDonald into the 22. That would balance things up a lot better IMO.
Of course it would help...
What i'm saying is blokes playing together every week, under the same coach every year will bring some familiarity that would have a similar benefit.
We agree, I think. Both are needed.
I understand what your saying EB with Cripps being manned up but this is a guy we all high in very high regard, he is our captain and he plays in the middle which is critical when the match is in the balance.
I’m not excusing him. I expect him to have some impact or at least show the effort you expect from your captain at that critical moment.
He looked flat and tired imo and like I said only Walsh seemed willing to bust his nut when the game was winnable with 10 mins to go.
I’ve seen this more then a few times from Cripps last year as well. Starts like a machine then when the opposition come at us or when we really need a lift he is rarely the one to provide it.
And doc is sadly not half the player he was. I still have a big soft spot for doc and hope he can retain the touch he had but looks a bit unsure of himself at times which is hard to watch
Shawny, Cripps probably suffers in comparison to Martin.....its easy to look at Martin and dismiss Cripps contribution, apart from Walsh there wasnt much support yet Lambert, Prestia, Bolton, Caddy and Graham were all doing something at various stages of the game to help ease the workload with Cotchin out. Cripps just gets worn down having to be the man every minute and apart from his trusty sidekick in Walsh he was alone vs the Tigers. Williams and Martin will both help bridge that gap and I think its evident we probably need Martin a bit more in the middle at times than we would like but vs the best teams thats whats going to have to happen else Cripps will end up the usual struggling banged up warrior that he is at seasons end.
Does that mean the tigers were also underdone too as they know there making the finals and will peak then?
For us we need to be at full throttle from the start and pinch games from finals contenders now not sit back and hope the leaders in the marathon don’t get over the hill and out of sight
Wish it worked that way. Not everything works in such simple terms. There's alot to physiology. Thing is some sides go ok first up, others need a hitout first, just like some horses. Tigers are a very established side and may have been ripe and ready making us look not as fit. Like I said, it's a marathon, not a sprint.
There was good things, things we need to work on but even so we were a straight kick from taking the lead against a side that has won 3 of the last 4 flags with 5 min to go. We don't need to overanalyse it, which we all tend to do, just know where we were deficient compared to the best. Nice to know we weren't far off with still quite a bit to work on. As long as we work on it.
Thats 1 more string than LOB. ;)
He has a huge tank, a hard body and a defensive mindset.......that screams tagger to me. As i said, an Ed replacement.
If not him, who takes over the tagging role from Ed? Kennedy is too slow. Stocker is an option, but we haven't seen enough of him i don't think.
Ok fair points.
I just like to see young players that even if it’s once a blue moon give me a glimpse of ability. With Cottrell I see a poor mans Robbo but maybe an Ed replacement is an option for him.
Throughout the game he was pointing out our dumb moves, lack of awareness, poor tactics, inability to control the pace of the game etc. All, to me anyway, signs of a leadership vacuum. I'm sure if we had his onfield leadership we would be a much better team.
Cheers Cookie.
Saw this somewhere else so hope it's right. After the 20 minute mark in each qtr. Richmond scored 10.5. 65 to Carlton 1.6.12.
Can happen in round 1. Some sides are more match ready than others. On the positive side we gave the the reigning back to back premiers a hiding for the first 20 min of each qtr overall. Composure and fitness.
Saw this somewhere else so hope it's right. After the 20 minute mark in each qtr. Richmond scored 10.5. 65 to Carlton 1.6.12.
Can happen in round 1. Some sides are more match ready than others. On the positive side we gave the the reigning back to back premiers a hiding for the first 20 min of each qtr overall. Composure and fitness.
Tigers are usually slow starters to the season apart from their usual 1st up wins vs us, it was like watching a replay of previous seasons. They started pre season later didnt they? thought we should be fitter?
Tigers are usually slow starters to the season apart from their usual 1st up wins vs us, it was like watching a replay of previous seasons. They started pre season later didnt they? thought we should be fitter?
They are very well established. Won't take them long to get fit and they have a much stronger background. Some sides just take to the first game better than others. Others need the hitout.
Too true - Pitto is good around the ground but not so good in the centre square ruck contests.
Indeed. Pitto isn't the right matchup for all ruckman, but he is what we have at the moment. Tom de Koning would be a better matchup, as he can jump all over any Richmond ruck. But he won't be there for a while yet.
I must be watching a different player to the coaches, he missed Murphy last night from 10-15m away, he doesn't this all the time IMO. I don't share everyone love for this bloke, never have. SPS epitomises where we are at, we have too many that don't contribute enough for long enough. Richmond to man showed us what it takes to win arm wrestles.
And Ill just say this, Doc better fix the fumbles or he can play in the twos also.
Doc hasn't got his touch back yet. That is not a big surprise. But he will get it back, if he can remain uninjured.
Just watched the replay as I missed big chunks on game night.
1. Good overall effort. We pushed them hard - a few moments of lack of composure (Dow, LOB, Harry, Doc) cost us dearly. A few players below par (SPS, Doc, Willo, Smurf) but a few unexpected performers (OMac, Fogarty).
2. If Dow had kicked the goal with 6m left on the clock (and he should have) and put us in front, it's an entirely different game. Then a no free kick to Big Levi......
3. Our players looked very heavy in the legs i.e. slow across the ground. Why?
4. Who will make way for Williams and Martin? JSOS clearly will be out, then Willo or LOB next....Kennedy has performed very strongly in the 2s too (and Stocker not far behind him). Matt is a like for like replacement for JSOS with his midfield grunt a bonus - he's a footy player first and foremost and not at all slow (now he's injury free). Martin for Murphy i would do, but doubt Teague will.
5. Pies were very so so last night. If we can't put them away comfortably, we are a joke still....
Just watched the replay as I missed big chunks on game night.
1. Good overall effort. We pushed them hard - a few moments of lack of composure (Dow, LOB, Harry, Doc) cost us dearly. A few players below par (SPS, Doc, Willo, Smurf) but a few unexpected performers (OMac, Fogarty).
2. If Dow had kicked the goal with 6m left on the clock (and he should have) and put us in front, it's an entirely different game. Then a no free kick to Big Levi......
3. Our players looked very heavy in the legs i.e. slow across the ground. Why?
4. Who will make way for Williams and Martin? JSOS clearly will be out, then Willo or LOB next....Kennedy has performed very strongly in the 2s too (and Stocker not far behind him). Matt is a like for like replacement for JSOS with his midfield grunt a bonus - he's a footy player first and foremost and not at all slow (now he's injury free). Martin for Murphy i would do, but doubt Teague will.
5. Pies were very so so last night. If we can't put them away comfortably, we are a joke still....
Agree with that. To Dows crucial miss, I'd add the lairising by H (play on in the goals square and the play on hook kick from the mark virtaully in front) and Walsh (banana kick from straight in front), they most definitely could have changed the course of the game in my view. Play the %s boys.
Agree with that. To Dows crucial miss, I'd add the lairising by H (play on in the goals square and the play on hook kick from the mark virtaully in front) and Walsh (banana kick from straight in front), they most definitely could have changed the course of the game in my view. Play the %s boys.
Yes, H was not tuned in....at all. But if that's his first gear. looking forward to seeing the rest of them.
2.6 in the 3rd quarter cost us dearly too.
As Teague said, the Tigers simply handled the big moments a lot better.
Our boys should be annoyed with themselves really.
Tigers are usually slow starters to the season apart from their usual 1st up wins vs us, it was like watching a replay of previous seasons. They started pre season later didnt they? thought we should be fitter?
A lot of the Richmond players came back before Christmas from what I heard. So maybe not that much more fitter, maybe just a better team ATM
A lot of the Richmond players came back before Christmas from what I heard. So maybe not the much more fitter, maybe just a better team ATM
Better skills show in these high possession high speed high fatigue games, the key difference was those 3 or 4 moments when we gave them easy possession due to skill errors.
Just finished watching the game in it's entirety. Yep, as many have already stated, just too many f-ups cost us dearly. Overall I think we were an improve on the team that played same time last year. Saad was super impressive. Walsh, bloody hell. We certainly have a future Brownlow medalist here. No doubt. It's disappointing, AGAIN, but I would be way, way more p!@@ed off if we don't play like that next week against the filth. If we maintain that standard, tidy up on the mistakes we should cover them COMFORTABLY.
Just watched the replay as I missed big chunks on game night.
1. Good overall effort. We pushed them hard - a few moments of lack of composure (Dow, LOB, Harry, Doc) cost us dearly. A few players below par (SPS, Doc, Willo, Smurf) but a few unexpected performers (OMac, Fogarty). - Agreed. Just some extra composer at crucial times.
2. If Dow had kicked the goal with 6m left on the clock (and he should have) and put us in front, it's an entirely different game. Then a no free kick to Big Levi...... - Heard footsteps I would say. Just before he kicks it he looks to his right and there is a Richmond player bearing down on him which probable made him rush his kick, otherwise he could of taken a few more steps and steadied before kicking.
3. Our players looked very heavy in the legs i.e. slow across the ground. Why? - Maybe many reasons for this. They are a season team and have played in finals for the last few years. Has to have some effect on them as the team.
4. Who will make way for Williams and Martin? JSOS clearly will be out, then Willo or LOB next....Kennedy has performed very strongly in the 2s too (and Stocker not far behind him). Matt is a like for like replacement for JSOS with his midfield grunt a bonus - he's a footy player first and foremost and not at all slow (now he's injury free). Martin for Murphy i would do, but doubt Teague will. - Williams straight in. LOB in trouble and Martin/Eddie in for maybe Gibbons. I like Gibbons, just as bit slow and can be caught out at times. Bambam for SOS.
5. Pies were very so so last night. If we can't put them away comfortably, we are a joke still.... - Pies will come out hard after last nights showing. Cannot take them lightly.
Just to add to this, I was really pissed at SPS for his pathetic effort at tackling Lynch in the last quarter. With 6:26 to go in the last quarter, he tries to bump Lynch who is running into the forward line. He bounces of Lynch who does not even break stride. I gave it to him and in no uncertain terms.
Is this too ‘glass half full’ but with an ordinary 41 forward 50 entries and a couple of howler misses, we were still a kick off the pace in the last quarter. Therefore our conversion must be considered very good! More entries, less ‘Tiger type pressure’ up forward ( it won’t be like that every week!) and I think our forward line can stand up.
Just to add to this, I was really pissed at SPS for his pathetic effort at tackling Lynch in the last quarter. With 6:26 to go in the last quarter, he tries to bump Lynch who is running into the forward line. He bounces of Lynch who does not even break stride. I gave it to him and in no uncertain terms.
Mate I am SPS's biggest and harshest critic on this site, have been for years but fair suck of the sauce bottle, 200cm/100kg vs 182cm/78kg what do you reckon is gonna happen?
Is this too ‘glass half full’ but with an ordinary 41 forward 50 entries and a couple of howler misses, we were still a kick off the pace in the last quarter. Therefore our conversion must be considered very good! More entries, less ‘Tiger type pressure’ up forward ( it won’t be like that every week!) and I think our forward line can stand up.
Agree, given the shellacking we copped with I50 numbers, to be in it up to ears for that long is a credit.
Is this too ‘glass half full’ but with an ordinary 41 forward 50 entries and a couple of howler misses, we were still a kick off the pace in the last quarter. Therefore our conversion must be considered very good! More entries, less ‘Tiger type pressure’ up forward ( it won’t be like that every week!) and I think our forward line can stand up.
Unless we can replicate the I50 scoring efficiency from last night, the low I50 number is a bit of a worry for mine. Very much a wait and see IMO.
Mate I am SPS's biggest and harshest critic on this site, have been for years but fair suck of the sauce bottle, 200cm/100kg vs 182cm/78kg what do you reckon is gonna happen?
An an example, Cripps did that on at least 3 players. Ran though them like they weren't even there.....and he's smaller than Lynch
I was at the game. I was so high up in the stand there was a Sherpa struggling for breath. The fact we got smashed in the centre clearances and couldn't really lock the ball in our front half, in the end the difference was Dusty Martin. He kicked six goals against us a few years back and I thought this game was far better. He was unstoppable. Without him, Richmond are a good average side. With only Cotchin out and playing as well as they did, I am not seeing much improvement in them, though in this match they were pretty good because of Martin. We had seven out guys out who you would normally consider strongly for selection and there was another three or four in the Reserves so our depth is getting to be pretty good. We still make too many skill errors and decision errors and we looked a little under done with regards to fitness though you want to be running flat out at the end of the year more so than at the start of the season. Saad is a ripper and if he continues on the way he played then he was worth the first round pick we gave up for him. McGovern is going to have to work hard to get in the side considering the way Silvagni and MacDonald played. Why wasn't the run down and tackle a free kick for Silvagni. It was an incredible effort. Our teaming and team awareness really needs to improve but that should happen with greater confidence, as well as playing and winning together. While I was reasonably comfortable with the performance, all could be washed away next week against Collingwood.
Saw this somewhere else so hope it's right. After the 20 minute mark in each qtr. Richmond scored 10.5. 65 to Carlton 1.6.12.
Seems accurate to me.
BTW - I am a little worried about Murphy. His ball use is better than most but he has never been great without the ball and his chases do not inspire me. Not sure who is the less inspirational chaser, Murphy or SPS.
Seems accurate to me.
BTW - I am a little worried about Murphy. His ball use is better than most but he has never been great without the ball and his chases do not inspire me. Not sure who is the less inspirational chaser, Murphy or SPS.
The problem with Murphy is his chasing is fine, but even if he catches an opponent I think they don't feel the inferred pressure.
He can't tackle. Its not a lack of want, his shoulder issues and lack of ability to apply strength is leading to opposition knowing they can brush him off and run off very easily.
Seems accurate to me.
BTW - I am a little worried about Murphy. His ball use is better than most but he has never been great without the ball and his chases do not inspire me. Not sure who is the less inspirational chaser, Murphy or SPS.
Murph laid 3 tackles on the the night along with Walshy and Dow, Cripps, LOB and Saad laid the most with 4. SPS laid 1.
As for chasing, for whatever reason I reckon sometimes its a tactic as too often, too many of our blokes don't seem to chase or try and corral their opponent with the ball. They tend to sit off, any one else notice this?
https://www.afl.com.au/video/566870/-first-time-in-50-years-stunning-upsets-kane-s-message-for-teague?videoId=566870&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1616246123001
Kane's message for Teague : "man up Dusty !"
Watch from about 15.40 onwards.
Murph laid 3 tackles on the the night along with Walshy and Dow, Cripps, LOB and Saad laid the most with 4. SPS laid 1.
As for chasing, for whatever reason I reckon sometimes its a tactic as too often, too many of our blokes don't seem to chase or try and corral their opponent with the ball. They tend to sit off, any one else notice this?
Yes, I'm sure it's a tactic. I'm quite convinced that Teague really wants players keeping their feet. But it was a very open, low tackle game. We laid 38 tackles, Tigers 43. Riewoldt had the game high with 5 tackles.
Kane's message for Teague : "man up Dusty !"
Watch from about 15.40 onwards.
Stuck out like Dogs Nuts.. Have a look at vision. 6 coaches doing what?? Who is our defensive coach...
Our stupidity has just helped out all the other coaches V Tiggers.....
Kane's message for Teague : "man up Dusty !"
Watch from about 15.40 onwards.
Stuck out like Dogs Nuts.. Have a look at vision. 6 coaches doing what?? Who is our defensive coach...
Our stupidity has just helped out all the other coaches V Tiggers.....
It's understandable to get worked up when you see that vision, but I'd be wary of Kane "the king cherry picker" Cornes. Our defence has done plenty right in recent times, and I think Dale Amos is doing a very good job. All defences will get caught out sooner or later. The Brisbane Lions defence was rumbled big time last night. 23 marks I50 v 5. It's a bad stat, from a team near full strength on their home deck, that finished 2nd last season.
As a minor addendum to my previous post, the I50 count in our game was 75/41 the Tigers way, yet marks I50 was 16/10 their way. That's a very good defensive effort which ever way you slice it IMO.
As a minor addendum to my previous post, the I50 count in our game was 75/41 the Tigers way, yet marks I50 was 16/10 their way. That's a very good defensive effort which ever way you slice it IMO.
Yes, but it's sort of like claiming a win for killing some enemy as they over-run your home town with minimal resistance!
Has anyone read the Michael Barlow article in the West Australian? I couldn't - subscription wall. It created a lot of conversation on FB.
He asked if most of the players really had the 'will' to win.
I bring this up, and was drawn to the article's headline, by worrying that this group -- with the exception of a few -- just don't know how to win.
Thoughts? This is not a discussion about talent, because it is there (except maybe for midfield depth), but more about above the shoulders.
Has anyone read the Michael Barlow article in the West Australian? I couldn't - subscription wall. It created a lot of conversation on FB.
He asked if most of the players really had the 'will' to win.
I bring this up, and was drawn to the article's headline, by worrying that this group -- with the exception of a few -- just don't know how to win.
Thoughts? This is not a discussion about talent, because it is there (except maybe for midfield depth), but more about above the shoulders.
Barlow has a point, in that remuneration for footballers is at such a high level now that you have to ask if the is a much greater benefit to be had from pushing for the ultimate prize.
I've heard The Hyphen say this before, he thought they deserve the money, but he said the remuneration / reward for winning should be a bigger percentage of the total so that players stay motivated. I'd be concerned that players who are solely motivated for money are the ones most likely to take a few short steps.
Barlow has a point, in that remuneration for footballers is at such a high level now that you have to ask if the is a much greater benefit to be had from pushing for the ultimate prize.
I've heard The Hyphen say this before, he thought they deserve the money, but he said the remuneration / reward for winning should be a bigger percentage of the total so that players stay motivated. I'd be concerned that players who are solely motivated for money are the ones most likely to take a few short steps.
Dusty Martin gets paid a truckload and looks very motivated, same with most of their players.......its that horrible boring word culture again. They just have a system that gets the best out of players.....Brisbane were the same....Voss, Brown..every week life on the line stuff. Maybe its the coaches...Hardwick, Matthews both loved a contest and hated losing, do anything to win...
Clarko another who will do anything to win and expects his players to be similar.
Dusty Martin gets paid a truckload and looks very motivated, same with most of their players.......its that horrible boring word culture again. They just have a system that gets the best out of players.....Brisbane were the same....Voss, Brown..every week life on the line stuff. Maybe its the coaches...Hardwick, Matthews both loved a contest and hated losing, do anything to win...
Clarko another who will do anything to win and expects his players to be similar.
True, a lot of that comes down to list management, we seem to cut the unsociable types!
An an example, Cripps did that on at least 3 players. Ran though them like they weren't even there.....and he's smaller than Lynch
Krud agree 100%. Bigger body more likely to not be stopped. But i bet that the Richmond players tried to tackle Cripps and not bump him. My only issue is that he did not even try to tackle him he tried to bump him, face on!! Have a look at the replay, 6:26 remaining in the last quarter. Lynch just missed his shot on goal at a crucial time in the last quater.
Almost every time Cripps tried to run through people he stuffed it up. The one that came off was a lucky snap from Gibbons who was under a lot of pressure. Cripps needs to get back to basics, win the ball and give it off straight away, that's what made him the player he is. He's not Dusty and he never will be that sort of player.
BTW - I am a little worried about Murphy. His ball use is better than most but he has never been great without the ball and his chases do not inspire me. Not sure who is the less inspirational chaser, Murphy or SPS.
Agree. He looked very composed, ball in hand, in the front half, and actually tried to spot up a few leading forwards (which is very anti-Carlton of the past few years). BUT, the half hearted chasing is very obvious at times. All in all, I think I like the use of him forward.
Murphy is an interesting one for mine. Watching him on TV, he look like he simply doesn't tackle, ever. Yet when you look back to his tackle stats, more often than not he is up there in the top 5 at our club. I watched the game, and I can't recall ever seeing him lay a tackle. Yet he registered 3, when the game high was 5. I'm not sure what's going on, but I wonder if we judge him too harshly. He's played under several coaches, and they all seem to value him, otherwise why is he still on the list ?
Agree. He looked very composed, ball in hand, in the front half, and actually tried to spot up a few leading forwards (which is very anti-Carlton of the past few years). BUT, the half hearted chasing is very obvious at times. All in all, I think I like the use of him forward.
Also his attempts to tackle often look, well shall we say half hearted, to be kind to him.
Also his attempts to tackle often look, well shall we say half hearted, to be kind to him.
Since he stuffed his shoulders, ................ or should I say since we let the Lions beat up on him undefended very early in his career.
At the ground I didn't think Murphy had much impact but my brother watching on TV thought he was pretty good. We often see what we want to see.
If Murphy is not playing on the ball then he is judged as a pure forward, in that case he would be pushed out by Betts and Martin.
If Murphy is not playing on the ball then he is judged as a pure forward, in that case he would be pushed out by Betts and Martin.
How many pure forwards can we have?
Betts, Martin, Gibbons, sMurph, Fisher, Fogarty, they can't all be in that role so I suspect it's a bit of club spin.
I can't recall Murphy laying a tackle either (obviously he did)
Every time he attempts it I expect it not to be executed.
It could be his stats relate to an initial holding up of a player and then he's supported in completing the tackle.
That may very well be related to shoulder injuries I've just come to accept that he's no longer strong enough in that department.
It can be costly and his contribution in other areas needs to make up for that deficiency.
I can't recall Murphy laying a tackle either (obviously he did)
Every time he attempts it I expect it not to be executed.
It could be his stats relate to an initial holding up of a player and then he's supported in completing the tackle.
That may very well be related to shoulder injuries I've just come to accept that he's no longer strong enough in that department.
It can be costly and his contribution in other areas needs to make up for that deficiency.
Can anyone really recall any tackling players other than the run-down?
In the old days Dusty's double-handed backwards toss would be called a throw by umpires, plenty of players get penalised each season doing this at ground level between legs, etc., etc.. Why is overhead different?
Has this rule changed or is it just another example of Special Nthmond rules under the influence of Dimma the Whinger?
fwiw; I think players can clench their fist and do that same action all day everyday without penalty, but the moment they open their hand in the same action it's a throw, always has been and always should be!
I though the VFL banned the flick pass decades ago!
I don't think Murphy was ever billed as or promised to be a tackling demon, but the numbers suggest he does his bit.
Can anyone really recall any tackling players other than the run-down?
Fraser Brown :D
I don't think Murphy was ever billed as or promised to be a tackling demon, but the numbers suggest he does his bit.
Yes, there are quite few players, who do not have bung shoulders, but have plenty of closing speed and are well below sMurph on the tackling attempts.
Focussing too much on sMurph just offers them a smokescreen.
Plus in this debate, I'm not so sure attempting a tackle is useful if you aren't likely to stick it, perhaps holding back and exerting pressure is a better option, better than failing a tackling attempt and ending up off-balance or floored and out of the play. I don't think it is cut and dry as fans think, but it's an easy thing to focus on.
Fraser Brown :D
Yep, I think the point I'm trying to make is that excluding some very obvious run-downs that resulted in goals in clutch moments, I hardly recall a great offensive tackle, Fraser Brown, Levi Casboult, maybe one or two others.
But each week our defenders getting pegged with the pill, like Docherty, Plowman, Weitering, etc., etc., gets burnt into the back of my brain.
In the old days Dusty's double-handed backwards toss would be called a throw by umpires, plenty of players get penalised each season doing this at ground level between legs, etc., etc.. Why is overhead different?
Has this rule changed or is it just another example of Special Nthmond rules under the influence of Dimma the Whinger?
fwiw; I think players can clench their fist and do that same action all day everyday without penalty, but the moment they open their hand in the same action it's a throw, always has been and always should be!
I though the VFL banned the flick pass decades ago!
He just hit the ball on, brilliant play from the GOAT.
He just hit the ball on, brilliant play from the GOAT.
Greatest
Of
All
Throwers
Throw, always was always should be.
If it had been a GF, it would probably be called the "Hands of GOAT" moment!
Jack Dyer would describe it as a "
Good
Ordinary
Attempted
Throw"
Yes, there are quite few players, who do not have bung shoulders, but have plenty of closing speed and are well below sMurph on the tackling attempts.
Focussing too much on sMurph just offers them a smokescreen.
Plus in this debate, I'm not so sure attempting a tackle is useful if you aren't likely to stick it, perhaps holding back and exerting pressure is a better option, better than failing a tackling attempt and ending up off-balance or floored and out of the play. I don't think it is cut and dry as fans think, but it's an easy thing to focus on.
Don't think I was
focussing on him in particular but it is an area I would like us to collectively improve on. No matter how the numbers read, watching games tells me that we are not a very strong tackling team.
I can't recall Murphy laying a tackle either (obviously he did)
Every time he attempts it I expect it not to be executed.
It could be his stats relate to an initial holding up of a player and then he's supported in completing the tackle.
That may very well be related to shoulder injuries I've just come to accept that he's no longer strong enough in that department.
It can be costly and his contribution in other areas needs to make up for that deficiency.
He actually laid 3 tackles, our 4th highest number. 3 blokes laid 4 tackles, Cripps, Saad and O'Brien.
I don't think Murphy was ever billed as or promised to be a tackling demon, but the numbers suggest he does his bit.
Love or hate Murphy I think its time we moved on from him, ditto for Ed Curnow, Betts and probably Casboult(when we get a replacement). Its time to play younger players and look to change things up...vs Richmond it was the same old same old.
We didnt take our chances and fed them with mistakes they lived off, been the same for a while and getting the same results from the same group of players is bordering on insanity.
Play Fogarty in Murphys role and let him develop, bring in Stocker, Honey, Durdin to generate some excitement and find another tall forward/ruck to help TDK and Pittonet.
I think both Murphy and Betts have played one season too many and while you need experience you dont need players who are holding younger players back. Mitchell, Lewis, Hodge were all moved on by the Hawks to allow fresh blood to play.
I'll be saying the same thing about Cripps in a couple of years if we cant win a flag, let him go and lets gets some value for him while we can. Murphy should have been let go when we let Gibbs go, fresh start for him at a contending club and we get some picks/players who might help us more. Watching players just fizzle out like Murphy as one club players is old school thinking and its a professional game where the clubs needs come first.
Love or hate Murphy I think its time we moved on from him, ditto for Ed Curnow, Betts and probably Casboult(when we get a replacement). Its time to play younger players and look to change things up...vs Richmond it was the same old same old.
We didnt take our chances and fed them with mistakes they lived off, been the same for a while and getting the same results from the same group of players is bordering on insanity.
While I agree, mostly it wasn't the old blokes making the bigger faux pas last Thursday, which is a bit of a problem.
Love or hate Murphy I think its time we moved on from him, ditto for Ed Curnow, Betts and probably Casboult(when we get a replacement). Its time to play younger players and look to change things up...vs Richmond it was the same old same old.
As the season progresses, depending on injuries, I think you'll find these changes will come to pass. Eddie has already said this'll be his last year. I suspect the form of Murphy and Curnow in particular will probably pick up for a while but it's unlikely they'll both continue though Ed can surprise. Levi was clearly not ready to play last week, so let's see what he produces this week. Once the King is ready to return and can show body endurance, it could well spell the end for Levi.
Im going to make a call, and say these guys will get better as the season goes on.
The younguns will be variable through inconsistency, but the elders will work their way in.
Curnow is underrated, he runs hard, tackles hard and is just a beast of a competitor.
Curnow is underrated, he runs hard, tackles hard and is just a beast of a competitor.
Been a handy player and sets a good example but I think we need four high class attacking mids rather than three plus one defensive one, a game winner rather than a saver.
Teams just bat deeper now and we need more players with better weapons.
Ed will make us a handy B grade midfield but I want an A grade set of mids who can compete with the best and who require taggers not the other way around.
Been a handy player and sets a good example but I think we need four high class attacking mids rather than three plus one defensive one, a game winner rather than a saver.
Teams just bat deeper now and we need more players with better weapons.
Ed will make us a handy B grade midfield but I want an A grade set of mids who can compete with the best and who require taggers not the other way around.
The problem with getting too many a-grade mids is that nobody wants to get their hands dirty.
Look at GWS, best bunch of mids in the game, even though they lose an a-grade player most years.....yet as a team, pathetic. They are a bunch of superstars with no team-first players.....or very few at least.
The player who worries me most is Harry. Since his recruitment we have been waiting for him to deliver. At that time he was compared with Wayne Carey. We all know that Carey had a football brain. What is between Harry's ears is anyone's guess.
It's said that he'll get better when he has played fifty games, but the mistakes he continues to make through stupid mistakes and being a smart ar@e should have been dealt with by the time he had reached ten games.
If Teague allows Harry to continue with his dinky kick across the body shots for goal, then he is wasted at full forward.
Maybe put him at centre half forward where he will be forced to kick the ball properly and he could actually trouble the opposition.
The problem with getting too many a-grade mids is that nobody wants to get their hands dirty.
Look at GWS, best bunch of mids in the game, even though they lose an a-grade player most years.....yet as a team, pathetic. They are a bunch of superstars with no team-first players.....or very few at least.
GWS as a whole have always had the soft tag, highly skilled but if you go hard at them they only have a few blokes who stand up...Greene, Ward....they had to keep playing Mummy, but have very few who wanted to scrap hard including their mids.
You need the right mids, Cotchin was accused of being Murphy like.... a skirter of packs who kicked sideways and didnt enjoy contact but he had to change or probably find himself on the trade table. He isnt a natural get dirty player but has forced himself to be better in that area. Luke Shuey is your ideal mid....can get dirty but also drill a pass or kick a nice goal.
Cripps, Walsh, Williams and Martin have the skills and can get their own ball when the heat is on...I think we will be better when Ed Curnow is our 5th, 6th or 7th choice mid....
Been a handy player and sets a good example but I think we need four high class attacking mids rather than three plus one defensive one, a game winner rather than a saver.
Teams just bat deeper now and we need more players with better weapons.
Ed will make us a handy B grade midfield but I want an A grade set of mids who can compete with the best and who require taggers not the other way around.
Happy to make way for the young attacking mids, not at the the expense of Ed just yet. Plenty of others in the team who get games despite providing little or no benefit should go before Ed.
The problem with getting too many a-grade mids is that nobody wants to get their hands dirty.
Look at GWS, best bunch of mids in the game, even though they lose an a-grade player most years.....yet as a team, pathetic. They are a bunch of superstars with no team-first players.....or very few at least.
Champion Teams vs Team of Champions?
The player who worries me most is Harry. Since his recruitment we have been waiting for him to deliver. At that time he was compared with Wayne Carey. We all know that Carey had a football brain. What is between Harry's ears is anyone's guess.
It's said that he'll get better when he has played fifty games, but the mistakes he continues to make through stupid mistakes and being a smart ar@e should have been dealt with by the time he had reached ten games.
If Teague allows Harry to continue with his dinky kick across the body shots for goal, then he is wasted at full forward.
Maybe put him at centre half forward where he will be forced to kick the ball properly and he could actually trouble the opposition.
Judging by some of his ridiculous decisions on Thurs night I'd say predominantly saw dust.
The player who worries me most is Harry. Since his recruitment we have been waiting for him to deliver. At that time he was compared with Wayne Carey. We all know that Carey had a football brain. What is between Harry's ears is anyone's guess.
It's said that he'll get better when he has played fifty games, but the mistakes he continues to make through stupid mistakes and being a smart ar@e should have been dealt with by the time he had reached ten games.
If Teague allows Harry to continue with his dinky kick across the body shots for goal, then he is wasted at full forward.
Maybe put him at centre half forward where he will be forced to kick the ball properly and he could actually trouble the opposition.
Considering he was not expected to play and was up against one of the best defenders in the league I thought he did okay.
GWS as a whole have always had the soft tag, highly skilled but if you go hard at them they only have a few blokes who stand up...Greene, Ward....they had to keep playing Mummy, but have very few who wanted to scrap hard including their mids.
Watch the Amazon doco - holy hell did we dodge a bullet with Coniglio. How they made him captain Ill never know. Just timid, introverted, poor communicator, looks like he doesnt want to be there. Then, in one of the earlier eps, he skips a recovery session.... no wonder they are soft
Love or hate Murphy I think its time we moved on from him, ditto for Ed Curnow, Betts and probably Casboult(when we get a replacement). Its time to play younger players and look to change things up...vs Richmond it was the same old same old.
Catch 22 - need to play the youngsters to get some experience into them, but as any team has shown (including us a few years back), this is a good way to get belted - which, in turn gives the young guys bad attitudes/habits.
HFC may have been able to do it with Hodge/Mitchell/Lewis as they had a host of other mid-tier leaders, that we dont have
I think you need the Murphy/Curnow experience, even if it doesnt always show up on the stat sheet
Love or hate Murphy I think its time we moved on from him, ditto for Ed Curnow, Betts and probably Casboult(when we get a replacement). Its time to play younger players and look to change things up...vs Richmond it was the same old same old.
We didnt take our chances and fed them with mistakes they lived off, been the same for a while and getting the same results from the same group of players is bordering on insanity.
Play Fogarty in Murphys role and let him develop, bring in Stocker, Honey, Durdin to generate some excitement and find another tall forward/ruck to help TDK and Pittonet.
I think both Murphy and Betts have played one season too many and while you need experience you dont need players who are holding younger players back. Mitchell, Lewis, Hodge were all moved on by the Hawks to allow fresh blood to play.
I'll be saying the same thing about Cripps in a couple of years if we cant win a flag, let him go and lets gets some value for him while we can. Murphy should have been let go when we let Gibbs go, fresh start for him at a contending club and we get some picks/players who might help us more. Watching players just fizzle out like Murphy as one club players is old school thinking and its a professional game where the clubs needs come first.
I agree with all of this Elwood. I too believe we should move on from the guys who have been the 'close enough yet not good enough' types. We need to do what the great clubs and teams do, regenerate and get ahead of the curve. Play the kids at different stages. Get some zip and excitement with this new group as opposed to the blokes who have been a part of the losing Carlton culture in past years.
I'd be looking toward the guys you said such as Stocker, Cottrell, Durdin, Owies, Honey, Philp, Ramsay, Kemp, Carrroll and Parks at different stages when fit.
And, perhaps our ruck/forward due can become both Pittonet and De Koning when TDK is fit.
We have to play Martin the middle more. I see him as our own Shane Edwards from the Tiges and guys like Fogarty and Gibbons challenged to play the Kane Lambert role.
Easily got a ticket in the AFL members level 1 last week. No luck today despite capacity being increased to 75%.
Easily got a ticket in the AFL members level 1 last week. No luck today despite capacity being increased to 75%.
So the reverse for me. Last week was stuck in the very last row of level 4 and this week I got Level 1! Did absolutely nothing different?
Champion Teams vs Team of Champions?
Pretty much, yeah.