...it's the only thing!
“Winning isn’t everything… It’s the only thing” UCLA coach Red Sanders…with an assist by Vince Lombardi
For some time there has been a criticism of posters focusing too much on the win/loss side of things as opposed to the growth and development of the playing group. Maybe that criticism was justified, as impatience with the pace of the rebuild is a natural response for some of us after years of poor to average performance. as Bolton said after taking up the job...
“We don’t want to be defined by wins and losses; we want to be defined by our effort and application”
While the above was probably true in the early years of the rebuild eventually the focus had to shift to winning games. If we haven’t reached that point already surely the time is now. Every indication from our draft strategy last year to comments by Bolton that he largely has the list he wants indicate that winning games in 2019 would be an expectation.
Winning is important…
Winning makes supporters happy, losing makes supporters sad
Young supporters are drawn to winning sides.
Winning helps sponsorship
Winning helps membership.
Winning helps crowd numbers
Winning gives you a better ladder position.
You don’t play finals unless you win more games than most of the other sides (unless one of them are drug cheats)
You don’t win premierships these days if you don’t win games at the end of the year.
Winning shuts the critics up.
If you’re a coach, winning keeps your job safe.
As Chris Judd stated earlier in the year "We're in a results-based business. We need to win games and and we're all really clear on that."
The development can run in tandem but surely the focus now must be all-out on achieving a few wins.
...it's the only thing!
“Winning isn’t everything… It’s the only thing” UCLA coach Red Sanders…with an assist by Vince Lombardi
For some time there has been a criticism of posters focusing too much on the win/loss side of things as opposed to the growth and development of the playing group. Maybe that criticism was justified, as impatience with the pace of the rebuild is a natural response for some of us after years of poor to average performance. as Bolton said after taking up the job...
“We don’t want to be defined by wins and losses; we want to be defined by our effort and application”
While the above was probably true in the early years of the rebuild eventually the focus had to shift to winning games. If we haven’t reached that point already surely the time is now. Every indication from our draft strategy last year to comments by Bolton that he largely has the list he wants indicate that winning games in 2019 would be an expectation.
Winning is important…
Winning makes supporters happy, losing makes supporters sad
Young supporters are drawn to winning sides.
Winning helps sponsorship
Winning helps membership.
Winning helps crowd numbers
Winning gives you a better ladder position.
You don’t play finals unless you win more games than most of the other sides (unless one of them are drug cheats)
You don’t win premierships these days if you don’t win games at the end of the year.
Winning shuts the critics up.
If you’re a coach, winning keeps your job safe.
As Chris Judd stated earlier in the year "We're in a results-based business. We need to win games and and we're all really clear on that."
The development can run in tandem but surely the focus now must be all-out on achieving a few wins.
Spot on.
You are now, officially, odds on to win 'Post Of The Year'.
The development can run in tandem but surely the focus now must be all-out on achieving a few wins.
Sorry, but when BB had the team playing ugly and in with a chance to win many low scoring games if not for a little more experience, the AFL, AFL broadcasters, AFL media and many members bagged the hell out of him! Our club folded under the pressure, I gather the coach folded under internal pressures, changed the plan and got hammered again for doing what the critics had demanded!
Now the same critics(guys like Darcy, Ling, BT, Barrett) tell us how great it is to watch the Dawks or Dogs play even worse football as they dig ugly wins out of an otherwise crap season! And now that we are apparently playing better football they still bag us! When someone like Carey seems to be the voice of reason, that we are playing good to watch football, they bag him!
When Clarkson does it he's an innovative genius super-coach, when BB does it he's got no plan, no direction and no future! :o
Sorry, but when BB had the team playing ugly and in with a chance to win many low scoring games if not for a little more experience, the AFL, AFL broadcasters, AFL media and many members bagged the hell out of him! Our club folded under the pressure, I gather the coach folded under internal pressures, changed the plan and got hammered again for doing what the critics had demanded!
Now the same critics(guys like Darcy, Ling, BT, Barrett) tell us how great it is to watch the Dawks or Dogs play even worse football as they dig ugly wins out of an otherwise crap season! And now that we are apparently playing better football they still bag us! When someone like Carey seems to be the voice of reason, that we are playing good to watch football, they bag him!
When Clarkson does it he's an innovative genius super-coach, when BB does it he's got no plan, no direction and no future! :o
But Clarkson wins.
4 yeas in we need to be winning now. No ifs or but. 4 from 40 is so far from good enough it's ridiculous.
Bulldogs stole a flag playing ugly horrible footy, Richmond got a flag by playing pressure/rebound footy and living off other teams mistakes.
Essendon play pretty footy where they create their own goals but its doesnt standup all the time, you need to be able to get down in the gutter and play dirty scrappy footy too and grind as well. Clarkson always has had his Hawthorn teams being able to play in the different modes....
But Clarkson wins.
When we played ugly BB had how many wins in his first season of widely criticised ugly football?
7 wins with another 4 single digit losses, and BB did that with half the list the Dawks had, yet was bagged mercilessly!
Clarkson always has had his Hawthorn teams being able to play in the different modes....
Not always, not when they were new at it, he nearly lost his job!
Hmm.
I think we are getting better at playing ugly.
I think we are improving at playing pretty too.
Of the 8 games this season, 7 have been in it to win with a relatively inexperienced team and carrying blokes that are underdone or not ready to step up to afl level and impact for 4 quarters yet.
I think next year and the year after we are going to see some rather dramatic upward improvement from our team.
Anyone questioning Bolton's coaching need only look at how he has managed to get Levi casboult and Liam Jones contributing meaningfully against the best sides in the competition.
Bulldogs stole a flag playing ugly horrible footy, Richmond got a flag by playing pressure/rebound footy and living off other teams mistakes.
Essendon play pretty footy where they create their own goals but its doesnt standup all the time, you need to be able to get down in the gutter and play dirty scrappy footy too and grind as well. Clarkson always has had his Hawthorn teams being able to play in the different modes....
And with a heap of free kicks.
Phenomenal amount really
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_team_rankings?year=2016&type=TT&sby=8
When we played ugly BB had how many wins in his first season of widely criticised ugly football?
7 wins with another 4 single digit losses, and BB did that with half the list the Dawks had, yet was bagged mercilessly!
Not always, not when they were new at it, he nearly lost his job!
Didnt take Clarkson 4 years though.....2005-2008.......5 wins, 9 wins, 14 wins, 20 wins(flag).......where are we in comparison, look at the linear progression, had to rebuild
in 2 years and as a novice coach...
When we played ugly BB had how many wins in his first season of widely criticised ugly football?
7 wins with another 4 single digit losses, and BB did that with half the list the Dawks had, yet was bagged mercilessly!
Not always, not when they were new at it, he nearly lost his job!
I repeat, but Clarkson had them winning (and playing finals).
See EB1s post re Clarkson V BB first 4 years.
The time for justifying and rationalizing losses is over. Kaput. Finito. The end. (And I'm actually sure that's how BB wants it as well).
We should be thinking late charge for the 8 and/or to shape the 8... anything... anything to set a goal, an objective, an ambition... that involves winning.
Didnt take Clarkson 4 years though.....2005-2008.......5 wins, 9 wins, 14 wins, 20 wins(flag).......where are we in comparison, look at the linear progression, had to rebuild
in 2 years and as a novice coach...
The Clarkson rebuild is a myth, check out the Dawks 2004 list
HERE (https://www.finalsiren.com/Fixture.asp?TeamID=16&SeasonID=2004)
The Dawks rebuild started before Clarkson arrived, the majority of their list were seniors or already in their 3rd, 4th or 5th year!
Even players like Hodge and Mitchell had arrived a couple of years earlier, to add to a core group of seriously experienced seniors. All the kids had already benefited from starting their career besides 10 year players!
When you add to this they begged the AFL for priority pick compensation and were given it, 2001 when Croad left three years before Clarkson arrived, because losing Croad was going to cripple their club they claimed! That landed them Hodge!
Our rebuild started before Bolton arrived, check out our list changes from 2013-2015.
Our rebuild started before Bolton arrived, check out our list changes from 2013-2015.
Yes, MM fecked it right up, and SOS arranged to clear him out before his son got drafted! ;D
Didnt take Clarkson 4 years though.....2005-2008.......5 wins, 9 wins, 14 wins, 20 wins(flag).......where are we in comparison, look at the linear progression, had to rebuild
in 2 years and as a novice coach...
Yeah but they pinched that one early because all the moons alligned for them, where their draftees hit the ground running (Cyril) and their older draftees really hit their stride, along with their senior players making meaningful contributions.
To highlight this, the squad that played that day, and the year they were drafted:
2. Roughead (2004) 3. Lewis (2004)
4. Ladson (2001) 5. Mitchell (2001) (c) 6. Williams (2000) 7. Osborne (2001 rookie draft) 8. Ellis (2005)
9. Crawford (1991) 10. Bateman (1999) 11. Young (2004 rookie draft) 12. Sewell (2003 rookie) 14. Birchall (2005)
15. Hodge (2001) 18. Guerra (1999 To port adelaide, 2004 recruited to Hawks) 23. Franklin (2004)
24. Croad (1997) 27. Gilham (2003 port, 2006 Hawthorn)
30. Brown (2001) 31. Dew (1997 PA, 2008 Hawthorn) 33. Rioli (2008)
34. Renouf (2006) 39. Campbell (2001)The plan that they started under Peter Schwab, didn't really eventuate to a proper window of sustained success until 2012 when they lost the grand final to sydney. The years following 2008 were as poor for Hawthorn as they were prior, because the club had to ditch the older blokes, and re adjust again with newer players and transition from the old.
People seem to think we have only had one rebuild that started years ago and continues. IMHO, we started one when Malthouse arrived and it was poorly planned and executed where we ditched players who werent in it for the right reasons, and probably worked on getting the culture right first with limited success, and then we embarked on another one when SOS took over and I think even he has looked at it along with the club, and focussed on transforming the culture first, and is playing a much longer game with the list than anyone has anticipated. His first iteration has only just started bearing fruit. The initial Malthouse rebuild was the circuit breaker we needed to embark on a rebuild proper.
I have always stated, that I think if we got lucky we could be in the frame to jag one this year, but that's the thing with this approach. It has been a calculated gamble that hasnt paid off as we would have hoped, hence why we are not sitting 4 and 4 and are instead 1 and 7.
Fair point guys that Hawthorn premiership side was on average a year older than our boys who lost on the weekend and played an average of 35 games more.
Still they made the finals the year before in 2007, we are last.
The Hawks are the most successful club of the modern era, and have been a professionally run organisation for decades. We're still playing catch up. 5 spoons over 4 different coaches is the most cogent summary of our plight that you will ever find.
Ahhhhh. Winning is everything for us at the moment IMO. Sure we have a list. A better list than what we have had for years. Sure it’s young and still inexperienced. Sure we can develop these players into something special. We can only go so far with growing this current group. We need an injection of 2 to 4 players that make a difference in a game when it really counts. Players with poise. Players with class. Players that are great finishers.
Players that have left other clubs to start fresh with new sides. Where they see hope in winning a premiership. Players that in the past would not consider playing for us because they can’t see a real future. If we were to start winning games, this would change. They would see a future. Money wouldn’t motivate them as much as a potential flag. Players like Betts, Kennedy, Dangerfield, Treloar, Sidebottom etc. Match winning players that would inspire the others to lift at the right moments in a game.
Start winning games and we could add three of these types to our list over the next 2 to 3 seasons. They would add 3 to 5 goals of value per game with their explosive talents. Add 3 to 5 goals to every game we play in a season and there is no reason why we couldn’t win a flag or two. Developing this squad is ultra important. Winning will help speed this process up with on field leadership. Game time leadership. Attract a few of the above type players I have mentioned and we could be anything.
Winning may or may not appear to be everything, but the sooner it starts, the sooner we move to the next phase. A real competitive finals contender. Tell Me these above types wouldn’t want to run around the ground with Harry, Charlie, Fisher, Cripps, Walsh etc, once we show we can win games often. Tell me they wouldn’t add value to our squad and make us almost impossible to beat. Three of the above types would probably be enough to complement our current squad once Doc comes back. We need them to help inspire as Murphy and Simmo won’t last much longer.
Start winning to help us get to the next phase of developing a match winning squad. It is impossible to grow your entire list from the draft. The better sides have done the above. Developed youth. Won games. Topped up with “A” grade players.
Fair point guys that Hawthorn premiership side was on average a year older than our boys who lost on the weekend and played an average of 35 games more.
If you consider that Weitering or Cripps is Luke Hodge, how does that stack up given he was drafted in 2001??
Ill give you a clue: 2014 (Cripps debut season) + the difference between Hodge and Hawthorns first flag (IMHO, jagged before their official chance at a flag due to a bit of luck with recruits, and some careful longer term planning) = 2020 being a best case scenario.
If you then consider that their 3 peat started in the 3rd year of their premiership window (they lost to Collingwood by 3 points in the 2011 Prelim) which signalled the arrival of said plan coming to fruition) so add 3 more years:
2022-23 is when we will be arriving in earnest IMHO, and thats using Cripps as our signalling our rebuild, and yet, we were not as calculated as Hawthorn were at the time.
Thats if we keep following the current methodology.
What it should mean, is that so long as the incumbant to replace Bolton (im yet to be convinced we should) doesnt upset the apple cart. If the incumbant does, and using Cripps recent interview where he states he wants to stick it out and finish what he started, then we probably shouldnt be changing the coach at all.
4 in 40 or whatever.
If we change the coach do we change Cripps mind too?
While Cripps' is happy, and while he can see light at the end of the tunnel, should we be happy too?
Personally, I get the frustration, but I don't get the desperation!
Desperation was appointing MM in the dying years of Judd's career, what we are doing now is not desperate, it's far far from it!
I think as a group, the MC is on the right track, we are just frustrated at how long it all takes!
Also if you have a look at Hawthorn's record before their rebuild began:
1999 - 9th
2000 - 8th
2001 - 6th
2002 - 10th
2003 - 9th
2004 - 15th
2005 - 14th
2006 - 11th
2007 - 5th
2008 - 2nd
2009 - 9th
2010 - 7th
2011 - 3rd
2012 - 1st
2013 - Premiers
2014 - Premiers
2015 - Premiers
2016 - 3rd
2017 - 12th
2018 - 4th
2019 ??
It becomes really clear why we are where we are at, and why its definitely going to take us a bit longer to really get moving:
Carlton:
1999 - 6th
2000 - 2nd
2001 - 5th
2002 - 16th
2003 - 15th
2004 - 11th
2005 - 16th
2006 - 16th
2007 - 15th
2008 - 11th
2009 - 7th
2010 - 8th
2011- 5th
2012 - 9th
2013 - 9th
2014 - 13th
2015 - 18th
2016 - 14th
2017 - 16th
2018 - 18th
2019 - ????
The point being, that Hawthorn, rallied on the back of a couple of years in the wilderness. We are trying to undo a culture of failure dating 18 years with a brief period out of that wilderness coinciding with us having a coach coaching for results, and having access to some genuine superstars. Moral of the story, we forgot to develope for the future and ended up right back on the bottom of the pile, because we are used to assembling a team and going for a premiership.
We are not doing that this time. We are building one from scratch using the squad that SOS built, and if anyone is still around from before to taste some success, bonus.
If we change the coach do we change Cripps mind too?
While Cripps' is happy, and while he can see light at the end of the tunnel, should we be happy too?
Personally, I get the frustration, but I don't get the desperation!
Desperation was appointing MM in the dying years of Judd's career, what we are doing now is not desperate, it's far far from it!
I think as a group, the MC is on the right track, we are just frustrated at how long it all takes!
We don't know where Cripps' mind is at.
Happy after the Bulldogs game, Filthy after the weekend.
I think Cripps probably has a certain loyalty to Bolton, whether that outweighs his bond with his team-mates who knows.
Decisions should never be made based on individual players.
Our greatest ever player wasn't bigger than the club.
Franklin, Roughead and Lewis in one year...thats your rebuild, three A graders in one draft doesnt happen ever......
I simply don't understand why people are saying we should have more wins this season. What is this based on?
In EVERY game this season, we have been the underdogs based on match odds. This is despite very solid and competitive performances.
We currently have 1 MORE win than expected by the general public.
I know everyone wants to win every game, but objectively, haven't we actually overachieved so far this season?
Personally, I'd rather by in the position we are now, than teams like Essendon and Melbourne who are drastically underachieving.
So be frustrated, be disappointed, be passionate.
But also be realistic and honest when suggesting how many wins we SHOULD have.
Just to be clear..
This isn't a thread advocating we replace Bolton.
It's a thread that's about changing the focus from development to winning games.
Saving the coach is just one aspect of a whole heap of positives that come from winning
At some point winning becomes very important.
I reckon we're just about at that point.
"The wins will come eventually" starts to get a bit stale.
Of course they'll come eventually, for any club...that's how the competition is structured.
For how long that can be sustained is the real unknown.
I simply don't understand why people are saying we should have more wins this season. What is this based on?
In EVERY game this season, we have been the underdogs based on match odds. This is despite very solid and competitive performances.
We currently have 1 MORE win than expected by the general public.
I know everyone wants to win every game, but objectively, haven't we actually overachieved so far this season?
Personally, I'd rather by in the position we are now, than teams like Essendon and Melbourne who are drastically underachieving.
So be frustrated, be disappointed, be passionate.
But also be realistic and honest when suggesting how many wins we SHOULD have.
Actually I think we have one less win than I expected us to have, but that was just a matter of timing and the fact that we didnt punish them on the scoreboard like we should have.
i.e. The bulldogs win was expected given the side we fielded vs theirs and we should have won against the Gold Coast.
i note the '76ers just went down 92-90 (and 4/3) after a miracle on the buzzer 2 pointer!
Franklin, Roughead and Lewis in one year...thats your rebuild, three A graders in one draft doesnt happen ever......
Weitering, McKay and Curnow is looking good.
Weitering, McKay and Curnow is looking good.
Looking ok but those Hawks three were something else to pick up in one year...Buddy is a freak, Roughead the ultimate team man and cool head plus Lewis
a brutal tough nut who could also play at the top level.
Ours our talented but those Hawks had a real self confident attitude to go with the talent and the ideal coach in Clarko to harness it all.
I was told by a Carlton Recruiting scout that our recruiting dept considered Lewis a fat slow kid with no upside who would never make it and he was just a flat track U18 bully..we could have those three Hawk picks and fecked up the three of them IMO...
Looking ok but those Hawks three were something else to pick up in one year...Buddy is a freak, Roughead the ultimate team man and cool head plus Lewis
a brutal tough nut who could also play at the top level.
Ours our talented but those Hawks had a real self confident attitude to go with the talent and the ideal coach in Clarko to harness it all.
I was told by a Carlton Recruiting scout that our recruiting dept considered Lewis a fat slow kid wiht no upside who would never make it and he was just a flat track U18 bully..we could have those three Hawk picks and fecked up the three of them IMO...
That's what they said about Cripps, Diesel, Sam Mitchell......
I'm starting to think that if any kid is described as fat and slow, we should nab them as soon as possible. It seems to be footy code for "elite midfielder."
That's what they said about Cripps, Diesel, Sam Mitchell......
I'm starting to think that if any kid is described as fat and slow, we should nab them as soon as possible. It seems to be footy code for "elite midfielder."
Mitchell was another who they just picked up for nothing from Box Hill after being overlooked, our recruiters had this athletic upside theme to their recruiting and were
happy to ignore real footballers who didnt look likely to be the next Usain Bolt anytime soon....
Its about balance when you recruit, for every athlete you need a footballer with a footballers brain to compliment them.....unless you recruit a Buddy who has the lot.
I remember Lewis' U/18 year.
I hoped we would draft him....he had footy poisoning he got so much of the ball
Mitchell was another who they just picked up for nothing from Box Hill after being overlooked, our recruiters had this athletic upside theme to their recruiting and were
happy to ignore real footballers who didnt look likely to be the next Usain Bolt anytime soon....
Its about balance when you recruit, for every athlete you need a footballer with a footballers brain to compliment them.....unless you recruit a Buddy who has the lot.
Yes, agree EB. They were probably looking for the new Kouta.
Yep, and too busy trying be outsmart the pack with Hail Mary picks... Raso, Tiller, Edwards, Temay.
But our rookie punts were good, something we haven't been able to emulate.
I look at those picks and think, where was the upside even if those kids were capable? None of them were going to be the next Kouta for example.
Yep, and too busy trying be outsmart the pack with Hail Mary picks... Raso, Tiller, Edwards, Temay.
But our rookie punts were good, something we haven't been able to emulate.
I look at those picks and think, where was the upside even if those kids were capable? None of them were going to be the next Kouta for example.
Prof...was it Hotcox who said Edwards was going to be the next big thing?
Prof...was it Hotcox who said Edwards was going to be the next big thing?
Yep.
Everyone wanted Swallow, we got Raso.
Yep.
Ta....another winner from the Hottie stable....
Sorry, can you remind me, were there actually any winners in his multitude of "sure fire" certainties?
Sorry, can you remind me, were there actually any winners in his multitude of "sure fire" certainties?
Nope.
Best one was Chris Judd was broken when we recruited him. Wouldn't plays at all in his first season. Which was reduced to wouldn't play at all until round 10. Obviously went on to play every game, including intra-club matches in the pre-season. Only missed about 4 games over the next 4 years and won a brownlow.
But broken and won't play.
Put it this way, if you went out chasing chicks with Hotcox you'd have had better chances staying home with a six pack and a pizza.
Put it this way, if you went out chasing chicks with Hotcox you'd have had better chances staying home with a six pack and a pizza.
He was remarkably consistent in that way.
I've said it before, and i'll say it again. The last few years have been all about development, at the expense of winning. Games were pumped into the kids, even last year, when I thought it was time to play the best team for a win, not the best team for the future. Think Dow, LOB, etc... getting games when we had mature & experienced spuds in the VFL that would have served the team better, and might have landed us an extra win or two. That accelerated development has come at a cost. The expectations for wins previously have clearly been lower, with the emphasis on development. Now the boys hardly even know what it means to win.
I see the last 3 seasons as almost purely list building and development. Now we have a list that does not have a MASSIVE talent gap under 25. Now we have a list of very talented players under 25.
The list from 2015 below tells you EXACTLY why we are where we are now. Judd does his knee and retires. Otherwise we have a handful of good players (mostly older), and the rest very, very ordinary. How the hell SOS turned that list into our current list in 3/4 years is a miracle. Again, it came at a cost. The only players with currency traded out for picks. Experience out the door, kids in the door, and gifted games.
We all agree that now is the time to win, and I believe the team is now being picked to win (regardless of what some may say). I see the start of this year as the BEGINNING of our climb. We have just reached base camp. Team continuity, and experience playing together as a stable squad is what we can now build on.
Whether BB is the right coach or not, I am certain the club must stay the course, and not panic. This has been the most brutal ground up rebuild of an AFL club I have ever seen, and it has come at a cost. The rewards are just around the corner. Stay calm, do not panic yet. We will start winning, and if BB is the right man, we will start winning this year. I will be happy with 5 wins this season. Every previous season we have finished abysmally, even worse than the start of the season if that is possible... If BB can get 4 or 5 more wins in the remainder of the season it tells me all I need to know. If he can't, then he's on thin ice. Winning isn't everything. Yet. But it will be soon.
Senior List[9]
No. State Player Age AFL Debut Recruited from Career (to end 2014) 2015 Player Statistics
Gms Gls Gms Gls B D K HB M T HO
1 Victoria (Australia) Andrew Walker 28 2004 Bendigo (U18) 179 118 12 12 6 163 106 57 48 22 1
2 South Australia Troy Menzel 20 2013 Central District 26 34 14 13 7 130 87 43 46 24 –
3 Victoria (Australia) Marc Murphy (c) 27 2006 Oakleigh (U18) 185 143 19 7 6 510 291 219 79 65 1
4 South Australia Bryce Gibbs (vc) 25 2007 Glenelg 177 98 10 4 5 209 112 97 21 54 7
5 Victoria (Australia) Chris Judd 31 2002 Sandringham (U18), West Coast 271 224 8 4 2 148 76 72 20 21 –
6 Victoria (Australia) Kade Simpson 30 2003 Eastern (U18) 222 121 20 3 1 460 285 175 118 42 1
7 Victoria (Australia) Dylan Buckley 21 2013 Northern (U18) 8 2 18 5 5 258 152 106 65 38 –
8 Victoria (Australia) Matthew Kreuzer 25 2008 Northern (U18) 106 56 13 9 5 166 91 75 40 55 276
9 Western Australia Patrick Cripps 19 2014 East Fremantle 3 – 20 6 13 471 158 313 64 98 39
10 Victoria (Australia) Matthew Watson 22 2011 Calder (U18) 19 6 4 4 2 32 23 9 18 8 1
11 Victoria (Australia) Robert Warnock 27 2007 Sandringham (U18), Fremantle 86 17 2 – – 18 8 10 1 3 56
12 Western Australia Blaine Boekhorst 21 2015 Swan Districts – – 11 5 9 138 76 62 24 26 –
13 Western Australia Chris Yarran 24 2009 Swan Districts 105 87 14 3 2 223 182 41 68 33 –
14 Tasmania Liam Jones 23 2010 North Hobart, Western Bulldogs 66 68 9 7 9 65 46 19 31 18 –
15 Victoria (Australia) Sam Docherty 21 2013 Gippsland (U18), Brisbane Lions 29 8 19 2 2 401 260 141 116 40 1
16 Victoria (Australia) Dillon Viojo-Rainbow 18 – Western (U18) – – – – – – – – – – –
17 New South Wales Sam Rowe (lg) 27 2013 Murray (U18), Sydney, Norwood 31 11 20 2 – 211 125 86 79 43 28
18 Victoria (Australia) Kristian Jaksch 20 2013 Oakleigh (U18), GWS 7 2 6 1 2 62 39 23 26 8 –
19 South Australia Cameron Giles 19 – Woodville-West Torrens – – – – – – – – – – –
20 Victoria (Australia) Nick Holman 19 2014 Murray (U18) 1 – 8 – – 75 31 44 15 31 –
22 Australian Capital Territory Jason Tutt 23 2011 Ainslie, Western Bulldogs 26 22 13 4 5 218 128 90 55 35 –
23 Victoria (Australia) Lachlan Henderson (lg) 26 2007 Geelong (U18), Brisbane 101 88 16 16 10 189 134 55 96 24 2
24 New South Wales Mark Whiley 22 2012 Murray (U18), GWS 12 2 8 1 2 95 46 49 17 33 19
25 Western Australia Clem Smith 18 2015 Perth – – 7 – – 55 24 31 11 9 –
26 Victoria (Australia) Jayden Foster 19 – Calder (U18) – – – – – – – – – – –
27 Western Australia Dennis Armfield 28 2008 Swan Districts 113 44 12 13 10 145 88 57 25 36 –
28 Queensland Tom Bell 23 2012 Morningside 29 19 22 17 14 465 295 170 97 87 16
31 Victoria (Australia) Matthew Dick 20 2015 Calder (U18), Sydney – – 6 – 2 70 40 30 20 12 –
32 Victoria (Australia) Nicholas Graham 20 2013 Gippsland (U18) 10 2 6 3 1 104 51 53 15 29 –
33 Victoria (Australia) Andrejs Everitt 25 2007 Dandenong (U18), Western Bulldogs, Sydney 96 45 22 31 20 334 225 109 132 30 16
35 Victoria (Australia) Ed Curnow 25 2011 Geelong (U18), Adelaide, Box Hill 66 11 22 – 3 478 216 262 75 98 –
39 Victoria (Australia) Dale Thomas 27 2006 Gippsland (U18), Collingwood 177 133 5 2 2 70 42 28 20 6 –
40 Victoria (Australia) Michael Jamison (vc) 28 2007 North Ballarat (U18, VFL) 131 2 14 – – 132 74 58 56 15 3
41 Victoria (Australia) Levi Casboult 24 2012 Dandenong (U18) 36 29 16 24 12 150 100 50 83 15 86
42 Republic of Ireland Zach Tuohy 25 2011 Laois GAA 76 25 22 9 3 414 239 175 107 24 –
43 Western Australia Simon White 26 2010 Subiaco 45 9 14 1 1 156 93 63 42 26 7
44 Victoria (Australia) Andrew Carrazzo 31 2004 Oakleigh (U18), Geelong 178 47 16 1 3 365 128 237 40 63 –
46 Western Australia David Ellard
Great post Tragic.
I decided to actually track how SOS used very limited currency on that 2015 list into what we have today.
Still on the list:
- Marc Murphy
Kade Simpson
Matthew Kreuzer
Patrick Cripps
Liam Jones
Sam Docherty
Ed Curnow
Dale Thomas
Levi Casboult
All these players are still contributing to the current team when fit.
Retired/Delisted/Gone for nothing:
- Andrew Walker
Chris Judd
Matthew Watson
Robert Warnock
Blaine Boekhorst
Dillon Viojo-Rainbow
Sam Rowe
Kristian Jaksch
Cameron Giles
Nick Holman
Jason Tutt
Mark Whiley
Clem Smith
Jayden Foster
Dennis Armfield
Dylan Buckley
Matthew Dick
Nicholas Graham
Andrejs Everitt
Michael Jamison
Simon White
Andrew Carrazzo
David Ellard
Lost some good players to retirement, and cleared a LOT of rubbish.
Probably the only one here that is still contributing at another team is Nick Holman.
Trades:
- Troy Menzel, Lachlan Henderson > Phillips, Plowman, McKay
Tom Bell > C.Curnow
Chris Yarran > Cunningham
Zach Tuohy > Polson, Marchbank, Pickett, Macreadie, Williamson, Kerr
Bryce Gibbs > O'Brien, Schumacher, De Koning, McGovern
This is where it gets interesting.
I think SOS has done EXTREMELY well in converting just a few players with currency into some quality and depth coming back. The players we got where either from trading the picks we received, or using those picks in the draft.
I can't see anyone making a reasonable argument that SOS could have done any better in going from that 2015 list to now.
Nice post TFIB. When it's all summarised like that, it's not a bad body of work, especially when one takes into account other factors, such as blokes like Shiel who don't want to come to us etc.
Great post Tragic.
I decided to actually track how SOS used very limited currency on that 2015 list into what we have today.
Still on the list:
- Marc Murphy
Kade Simpson
Matthew Kreuzer
Patrick Cripps
Liam Jones
Sam Docherty
Ed Curnow
Dale Thomas
Levi Casboult
All these players are still contributing to the current team when fit.
Retired/Delisted/Gone for nothing:
- Andrew Walker
Chris Judd
Matthew Watson
Robert Warnock
Blaine Boekhorst
Dillon Viojo-Rainbow
Sam Rowe
Kristian Jaksch
Cameron Giles
Nick Holman
Jason Tutt
Mark Whiley
Clem Smith
Jayden Foster
Dennis Armfield
Dylan Buckley
Matthew Dick
Nicholas Graham
Andrejs Everitt
Michael Jamison
Simon White
Andrew Carrazzo
David Ellard
Lost some good players to retirement, and cleared a LOT of rubbish.
Probably the only one here that is still contributing at another team is Nick Holman.
Trades:
- Troy Menzel, Lachlan Henderson > Phillips, Plowman, McKay
Tom Bell > C.Curnow
Chris Yarran > Cunningham
Zach Tuohy > Polson, Marchbank, Pickett, Macreadie, Williamson, Kerr
Bryce Gibbs > O'Brien, Schumacher, De Koning, McGovern
This is where it gets interesting.
I think SOS has done EXTREMELY well in converting just a few players with currency into some quality and depth coming back. The players we got where either from trading the picks we received, or using those picks in the draft.
I can't see anyone making a reasonable argument that SOS could have done any better in going from that 2015 list to now.
Great points.
For extra emphasis and specifically for those people who like to quote 4 in 40, have a look at how many of this list actually have played significant footy for us since the start of 2016:
- Marc Murphy - 53 games - missed half the season in 2016, and half a season in 2018
Kade Simpson - 71 games - Probably the most consistent performer on this list, and lo and behold, one of the few that has been ever present at the ripe old age of 31+ for his last 71 games and has only missed a game or so per season.
Matthew Kreuzer - 57 games - Missed half the season in 2018 and broke down frequently when he was in.
Patrick Cripps - 66 games - Missed a chunk of 2017 with a leg break from memory.
Liam Jones - 44 games - learning a new role, was on the outer until he transformed into a full back 2 years ago.
Sam Docherty - 44 games - (food for thought, has been out with an ACL for all of 2018 and will miss most of 2019)
Ed Curnow - 63 games - missed half of last season with a fractured larynx??
Dale Thomas - 64 games - missed a few per season I think from suspension more than injury.
Levi Casboult - 58 games - enough said. Not consistent enough but our only viable key forward that has been ever present for the last 4 years
The rest of our weekly starting 22 has been either kids, or stop gaps whilst we have our draftees coming along.
For anyone who is focussed on Bolton's record, have a look at these numbers coming from the most experienced component of our list in terms of a Carlton history and then take a cursory glance at say for arguments sake, Richmond.
They boast a core group of players from before Cripps and Docherty's first game of AFL football. Let me repeat that. A core group of 13 players who are superstars of their team, from before our current best players (and captains) debut at AFL level.
For anyone who wants to complain that this is crap, really have a think about the following list of players:
Dylan Grimes
Dion Prestia
Dustin Martin
Brandon Ellis
Shaun Grigg
Jack Riewoldt
Trent Cotchin
Shane Edwards
David Astbury
Bachar Houli
Alex Rance
Tom Lynch
Contrast that with our list. Process it. Look at it. Why don't we win more games?? The answer is really simple. Our senior list is actually not that senior.
Id wager if you perform that exercise with any other squad in the AFL, you will not find that level of transition from old to new that is so significant in terms of difference in experience at this level.
Great points.
For extra emphasis and specifically for those people who like to quote 4 in 40, have a look at how many of this list actually have played significant footy for us since the start of 2016:
- Marc Murphy - 53 games - missed half the season in 2016, and half a season in 2018
Kade Simpson - 71 games - Probably the most consistent performer on this list, and lo and behold, one of the few that has been ever present at the ripe old age of 31+ for his last 71 games and has only missed a game or so per season.
Matthew Kreuzer - 57 games - Missed half the season in 2018 and broke down frequently when he was in.
Patrick Cripps - 66 games - Missed a chunk of 2017 with a leg break from memory.
Liam Jones - 44 games - learning a new role, was on the outer until he transformed into a full back 2 years ago.
Sam Docherty - 44 games - (food for thought, has been out with an ACL for all of 2018 and will miss most of 2019)
Ed Curnow - 63 games - missed half of last season with a fractured larynx??
Dale Thomas - 64 games - missed a few per season I think from suspension more than injury.
Levi Casboult - 58 games - enough said. Not consistent enough but our only viable key forward that has been ever present for the last 4 years
The rest of our weekly starting 22 has been either kids, or stop gaps whilst we have our draftees coming along.
For anyone who is focussed on Bolton's record, have a look at these numbers coming from the most experienced component of our list in terms of a Carlton history and then take a cursory glance at say for arguments sake, Richmond.
They boast a core group of players from before Cripps and Docherty's first game of AFL football. Let me repeat that. A core group of 13 players who are superstars of their team, from before our current best players (and captains) debut at AFL level.
For anyone who wants to complain that this is crap, really have a think about the following list of players:
Dylan Grimes
Dion Prestia
Dustin Martin
Brandon Ellis
Shaun Grigg
Jack Riewoldt
Trent Cotchin
Shane Edwards
David Astbury
Bachar Houli
Alex Rance
Tom Lynch
Contrast that with our list. Process it. Look at it. Why don't we win more games?? The answer is really simple. Our senior list is actually not that senior.
Id wager if you perform that exercise with any other squad in the AFL, you will not find that level of transition from old to new that is so significant in terms of difference in experience at this level.
You do realise, don't you, that young lists have won premierships, won loads of games, made finals?
You do realise that the club expects to be winning games, now. So why are you disagreeing with the goals and expectations of the club?
Are you okay with continual loses and willing to find excuses the entire time? Kinda puts you out of step with the club... for starters...
Um rubbish - the 4th year group - en masse have done SFA really.
Charlie was good last year, tragically bad this year.
Weiters - the reverse of Charlie.
SOJ - finding his feet hopefully
Cuners - see SOJ (and throw in perennially injured)
Harry - some good, some bad (but overall ok)
Is that them or the Club's development of them?
SPS - one blinder then back in his box. His peers - Fish (very good overall), Setters (watch this space), Macreadie (WIP), Willo (i'm praying he's ok).
Murphy and ED Curnow have - overall - been poor this year.
Simmo and Newman - both unlucky. Hopefully the latter will be back this weekend.
ed must play as a tagger (or not at all). Murphy would be better as a dedicated small forward with cameos in the guts....i think BB finally trialled this against the Pies after 8 rounds :(
The Guv - hopefully starting to hit his straps too.
Pickett and Kennedy - injury riddled.
That said, Kennedy should be playing before Dow imo.
The latter has lost his mojo....
Marchy and Plow - the former back to his best last weekend thankfully. Plow still has ??? over him.
Summary - very, very few are playing anywhere near their current best, let alone near their potential.
One notable exception is PC O0 + Jones.
Some non-win related progress...
Clearances:
2017 - 18th
2018 - 15th
2019 - 3rd
Disposals:
2017 - 18
2018 - 17
2019 - 14
Marks:
2017 - 4
2018 - 16
2019 - 8
Goals:
2017 - 17
2018 - 17
2019 - 13
Rebound 50s:
2017 - 12
2018 - 15
2019 - 2
Clearances is a massive win as is the rate by which we've been able to bounce the ball back out of our backline. The system down there has actually been pretty good. Goals & disposals going up. Not massively but we're heading in the right direction.
I don't think anyone is going to be convinced by anyone else's arguments today.
We won't known for sure, if the rebuild is successful, until perhaps the end of 2022.
For me, the improvement we have made this season is a positive regardless of our current W/L record.
Putting it another way, which would you prefer?
(A) Our current performance this season;
OR
(B) 4 wins by 1pt (against Syd, GC, WB, NM) and 4 loses by 100pts (Rich, PA, Haw, Coll).
I'm picking (A).
I don't think anyone is going to be convinced by anyone else's arguments today.
We won't known for sure, if the rebuild is successful, until perhaps the end of 2022.
For me, the improvement we have made this season is a positive regardless of our current W/L record.
Putting it another way, which would you prefer?
(A) Our current performance this season;
OR
(B) 4 wins by 1pt (against Syd, GC, WB, NM) and 4 loses by 100pts (Rich, PA, Haw, Coll).
I'm picking (A).
C. Though D has merrit. Stuff it, E, all of the above. ;)
You do realise, don't you, that young lists have won premierships, won loads of games, made finals?
You do realise that the club expects to be winning games, now. So why are you disagreeing with the goals and expectations of the club?
Are you okay with continual loses and willing to find excuses the entire time? Kinda puts you out of step with the club... for starters...
One persons excuse is another person's reason.
The difference?
Perspective.
Marriage councillors taught me that one.
Marriage councillors taught me that one.
There you go, you can even learn something from somebody with less morals than a lawyer, a profession that feeds itself off the misery of others.
There you go, you can even learn something from somebody with less morals than a lawyer, a profession that feeds itself off the misery of others.
I detect a tender nerve in there somewhere
There you go, you can even learn something from somebody with less morals than a lawyer, a profession that feeds itself off the misery of others.
Holy mackerel, Spotted One. You've just invalidated the best of intentions from, and dare I disagree, a very honourable and well meaning group of people. I have a few very close friends who are relationship counsellors and they're really decent folks in a really difficult -- often on a hiding to nothing -- profession.
I've been to a marriage guidance counsellor and he was a bloody ripper. Fair, smart and compassionate. Helped enormously... from the Bouverie Centre in Carlton.
Marriage / relationship guidance/counselling is no different to many other professions in that there are degrees of competence. If you're not happy with a certain counsellor, go to another one.
And... yep, there's more, a close family friend (hec, I'll name her though not wanting to embarrass her), Tammi Faraday, as a lawyer she gave up her time every week to journey to Springvale to donate her time giving legal advise to all manner of folks in trouble. Then she went to ACA (brilliant reporter). A courageous social activist. I can also give you the names of a number of champion lawyers from Freehills who give till it hurts helping folks.
Hec, Michael 'Dan' Mori, gave me enormous help in regard to certain unpleasant things that happened to me in the military and what I could do about it - social activist and deeply honourable. (He was the lawyer Lt Colonel in the Marines who represented prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and has since moved to Aust).
Holy mackerel, Spotted One. You've just invalidated the best of intentions from, and dare I disagree, a very honourable and well meaning group of people. I have a few very close friends who are relationship counsellors and they're really decent folks in a really difficult -- often on a hiding to nothing -- profession.
I've been to a marriage guidance counsellor and he was a bloody ripper. Fair, smart and compassionate. Helped enormously... from the Bouverie Centre in Carlton.
I admit it was a gross generalization.
But it's certainly not the case that a noble profession means all practitioners are noble, in fact quite the opposite, many such professions that service the weak and vulnerable are very attractive to charlatans and predators. I'm sure the guilty are all repentant after the fact!
I detect a tender nerve in there somewhere
Not first hand. I've had a relative who life was ruined by some people operating under those banners, counselors recommended by lawyers. It was a scam, one referring the other in a game of cheque book ping pong until the money ran out, at which time the true lack of care or compassion was exposed!
It's beholding on those noble professionals to clean up their own industry, and it is an industry, or else put up with being tarred by the same brush! Instead they whisper amongst themselves at conferences and do nothing official to call out the cheats and charlatans! They both need a professional standards board that isn't Micky Mouse!
Our rebuild started before Bolton arrived, check out our list changes from 2013-2015.
I am not sure bringing in Boekhorst and Thomas while giving up blokes that Mick didn't want is considered a rebuild. You must also consider what we gave up for those players.
2015 Draft is the start of the rebuild for mine. Picks have been used to get young elite talent. Mature age players picked up for chump change.
You do realise, don't you, that young lists have won premierships, won loads of games, made finals?
You do realise that the club expects to be winning games, now. So why are you disagreeing with the goals and expectations of the club?
Are you okay with continual loses and willing to find excuses the entire time? Kinda puts you out of step with the club... for starters...
Now that i am on a PC, I will respond with a little more depth to this.
The club is setting internal expectations on winning. The players now need to snap out of green shoot territory (which was a stance that publically needed to be taken) and into lets win today territory.
The thing is, the progress towards winning is not a one off switch into win mode and you get there automatically. It is part of the process.
Wins and losses are a result. They are not the metric. Metrics occur in games. How we perform what we are trying to do and how well we do it, and what we can then improve upon to resolve those metrics. All the wins/loss table shows us is that we have work to do still on the lifecycle of evolution of our footy club regarding how we do things (think reporting).
(https://d2myx53yhj7u4b.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/demystifying-the-5-phases2.jpg)
In a footy club this is a tricky process to navigate, because it all happens in varying capacities relative to the rest of the competition which is another reason why using wins and losses is a poor metric. I.e. if you are doing things better than everyone else like Carlton in the 90's that doesn't mean that there is not a better way to do things and arguably would have delivered us more success than we experienced in the 90's.
https://www.smartsheet.com/blog/demystifying-5-phases-project-management
Reporting will only be useful to understand the metrics.
I.e. we might not be tackling much as a metric in some games.
If it were the bulldogs game, the report of win, explains the metric of tackle. We were in control of the pill for longer periods than the bulldogs were, so we tackled less. Do we need to improve the performance of our team to fix that metric?? Not when a game is played like that one necessarily.
If the same was true of the North Melbourne game, it then tells us that we were not doing enough to close down our opposition.
The same folks on here calling for Bolton's head, or putting him on notice, are the same who would have called for Hardwick's, Buckley's and Thompson's heads if they supported those teams :
Geelong 2000-2006 - up and down like a yo-yo
Pies - 2012 -2017 - backwards for 6 seasons, despite a fantastic midfield
Tigers - bundled out in 3 consecutive EF's (13,14,15), then 13th in 2016.
W/L are only a part of a much bigger puzzle. We need to learn from the smart, professional clubs.
W/L are only a part of a much bigger puzzle. We need to learn from the smart, professional clubs.
The problem is Paul that you cant complete this puzzle without one vital piece.
Wins!
It's rather bizarre really..
The win/ loss record is the reality.
The games 'we should have won' are the fantasy
The "we'll be right if we're just patient" is the prophecy.
The only way for things to play out as the 'patient' people and the 'impatient' ones wish is exactly the same thing...a winning side!
The problem is Paul that you cant complete this puzzle without one vital piece.
Wins!
It's rather bizarre really..
The win/ loss record is the reality.
The games 'we should have won' are the fantasy
The "we'll be right if we're just patient" is the prophecy.
The only way for things to play out as the 'patient' people and the 'impatient' ones wish is exactly the same thing...a winning side!
What I wish for more than anything is a professionally run club, one that follows good precedent, good process and one that looks at things holistically. Understanding metrics beyond W/L is not fantasy. Otherwise Hardwick, Buckley and Thompson would have been sacked long ago. Understanding that losses against GC, Hawks, Pies were due to inexperience, luck, umpiring etc. is not fantasy. We cannot be right in each game up to our teeth, give Bolton no credit for that, then when we lose in the dying seconds, say he's crap.
Look back over the last 20 years, and tell me which clubs change coaches every 5 seconds - the good ones, or the crap ones ?
The same folks on here calling for Bolton's head, or putting him on notice, are the same who would have called for Hardwick's, Buckley's and Thompson's heads if they supported those teams :
Geelong 2000-2006 - up and down like a yo-yo
Pies - 2012 -2017 - backwards for 6 seasons, despite a fantastic midfield
Tigers - bundled out in 3 consecutive EF's (13,14,15), then 13th in 2016.
W/L are only a part of a much bigger puzzle. We need to learn from the smart, professional clubs.
None of those teams were basket cases, wooden spoon material etc from a scorched earth rebuild......as much as SOS has said its easy to build a midpack team thats where those clubs launched from.
Scorched earth rebuilds are unchartered waters, there isnt a owners manual that you can refer to or any statistical basis to suggest what is right or wrong.
None of those teams were basket cases, wooden spoon material etc from a scorched earth rebuild......as much as SOS has said its easy to build a midpack team thats where those clubs launched from.
Scorched earth rebuilds are unchartered waters, there isnt a owners manual that you can refer to or any statistical basis to suggest what is right or wrong.
I agree, but I wish to make the following 2 points :
- your post is precisely why we need to see the process through, with the main protagonists on board.
- the fact remains, that there were a large contingent of Pies and Tigers supporters who wanted Hardwick and Buckley gone, even though those clubs took a much less risky approach.
Yep the close losses are a fantasy.
They're not real wins, they're wins that didn't happen
They're excuses, valid ones in some cases.
They give us a bit of hope.
But what they give us hope for is that we can give a good effort on the day.
They wont show up in record books and probably wont be remembered by us in ten years time when we think back on this period.
I remember Blight kicking a goal from the opposite goal square, I remember Kernahan hitting the behind post for a draw, Fevola missed one for a few metres out one year....I don't remember the reasons for too many more close losses.
Bolton gets credit for the way we've played in most games this year.
But the difference between a close loss and a close win is as wide as the Grand Canyon.
I agree, but I wish to make the following 2 points :
- your post is precisely why we need to see the process through, with the main protagonists on board.
- the fact remains, that there were a large contingent of Pies and Tigers supporters who wanted Hardwick and Buckley gone, even though those clubs took a much less risky approach.
This probably goes to the heart of things...
Some see Bolton and the process as inseparable.
I don't see it that way because he came late to the process.
And my worry is that others who were more invested at the beginning would see it the same way.
It's why I have concerns that if we don't start winning games there is an easy target before others are held accountable.
None of those teams were basket cases, wooden spoon material etc from a scorched earth rebuild......as much as SOS has said its easy to build a midpack team thats where those clubs launched from.
Scorched earth rebuilds are unchartered waters, there isnt a owners manual that you can refer to or any statistical basis to suggest what is right or wrong.
Given thats the case EB1, does that mean that we need to look at a newbie team entering the competition as a point of reference?
Given the concessions afforded to them, that would mean we need additional patience to go with that.
Effectively, we are talking about GWS winning last in 2012, 2013, 16th in 2014, 11th in 2015, and then finals football.
Have done more of the Gold Coast version rebuild?
17th, 17th, 14th, 12th, 16th, 15th, 17th, 17th....
What about Freo?
It took them 8 years to play finals....
Anything predating then is a little bit difficult as a basis for comparison as the competition was too different regarding player movement (form 4's for the addition of Brisbane, West Coast and Adelaide).
Food for thought everyone:
https://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-02-15/clarko-almost-sacked-in-2010
Imagine they had lost that day. A 3 point margin is one kick. One kick resulting in a goal. To change 1 result. Had they ditched Clarkson, we would have no idea how it would pan out from that day forward, but the one thing I can determine, is that one result SHOULDNT be that important to Brendan Boltons position. Its not like we won a flag two years ago.
This probably goes to the heart of things...
Some see Bolton and the process as inseparable.
I don't see it that way because he came late to the process.
And my worry is that others who were more invested at the beginning would see it the same way.
It's why I have concerns that if we don't start winning games there is an easy target before others are held accountable.
And there it is. The Carlton way, the Demons way, the Saints way. Not the Pies, Tigers, Hawks or Cats way. And that's the difference. Not looking for an easy target, but actually looking for answers.
And there it is. The Carlton way, the Demons way, the Saints way. Not the Pies, Tigers, Hawks or Cats way. And that's the difference. Not looking for an easy target, but actually looking for answers.
Well we don't know that that is still the case do we? People on here and in the media speculate and opine about it based probably on actions taken in the past by the club. There has been no indication from the club itself as yet as to what might be in the minds of the management apart from sticking with the plan. It is a bit premature then to talk about "The Carlton Way" in the old sense in respect of this situation don't you think? Certainly the idea of a ground up rebuild is not the Carlton Way of past eras.
Well we don't know that that is still the case do we? People on here and in the media speculate and opine about it based probably on actions taken in the past by the club. There has been no indication from the club itself as yet as to what might be in the minds of the management apart from sticking with the plan. It is a bit premature then to talk about "The Carlton Way" in the old sense in respect of this situation don't you think? Certainly the idea of a ground up rebuild is not the Carlton Way of past eras.
We'll find out soon enough - is it a real, thorough rebuild, or just a new facade over the existing structure ?
And I was responding to lods' comment that if the wins don't some soon, the club will go looking for easy targets.
We'll find out soon enough - is it a real, thorough rebuild, or just a new facade over the existing structure ?
We will indeed. In the meantime, without any statements from the club to the contrary, the rebuild plan continues to unfold, but opinions outside the club continue to swirl unabated.
And I was responding to lods' comment that if the wins don't some soon, the club will go looking for easy targets.
We'll see on that too I guess - just an opinion.
Given thats the case EB1, does that mean that we need to look at a newbie team entering the competition as a point of reference?
Given the concessions afforded to them, that would mean we need additional patience to go with that.
Effectively, we are talking about GWS winning last in 2012, 2013, 16th in 2014, 11th in 2015, and then finals football.
Have done more of the Gold Coast version rebuild?
17th, 17th, 14th, 12th, 16th, 15th, 17th, 17th....
What about Freo?
It took them 8 years to play finals....
Anything predating then is a little bit difficult as a basis for comparison as the competition was too different regarding player movement (form 4's for the addition of Brisbane, West Coast and Adelaide).
Food for thought everyone:
https://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-02-15/clarko-almost-sacked-in-2010
Imagine they had lost that day. A 3 point margin is one kick. One kick resulting in a goal. To change 1 result. Had they ditched Clarkson, we would have no idea how it would pan out from that day forward, but the one thing I can determine, is that one result SHOULDNT be that important to Brendan Boltons position. Its not like we won a flag two years ago.
Fair points Thry, GWS had massive concessions so they started from poll on the grid, Freo have done it the hard way, some may say on that basis that Ross Lyon is the man for the job given he got them to finals.-
Some may also say that Gold Coast had there own Brendon Bolton with Guy McKenna and that he was the wrong man for the job given their poor record.
Clarkson had linear progression and a flag after 4 years but is that the norm?....I agree that losing one game shouldnt determine Bolton's outcome but then you have to work out where the line in the sand starts, 4, 5, 6 years???
You can argue for sacking Bolton or for retaining him depending on what path you want to go down, you can make a decent case for both...Stkilda and Brisbane have engaged in decent heavy duty rebuilds like us, there isnt any real trend line to suggest a rebuild from nothing even works but like us what timeline are we marking them by?
I dont honestly know how you even set a framework to judge Bolton or the rebuild by after 4 years?....is he the next Buckley, Hardwick or the next Guy McKenna...
..................
I dont honestly know how you even set a framework to judge Bolton or the rebuild by after 4 years?....is he the next Buckley, Hardwick or the next Guy McKenna...
If the club has any professionalism, they will indeed have a framework and metrics for judging this. He could be the next anything, great or terrible. We won't know if we short change the process, and if we fail to look at the bigger picture.
Fair points Thry, GWS had massive concessions so they started from poll on the grid, Freo have done it the hard way, some may say on that basis that Ross Lyon is the man for the job given he got them to finals.-
Some may also say that Gold Coast had there own Brendon Bolton with Guy McKenna and that he was the wrong man for the job given their poor record.
Clarkson had linear progression and a flag after 4 years but is that the norm?....I agree that losing one game shouldnt determine Bolton's outcome but then you have to work out where the line in the sand starts, 4, 5, 6 years???
You can argue for sacking Bolton or for retaining him depending on what path you want to go down, you can make a decent case for both...Stkilda and Brisbane have engaged in decent heavy duty rebuilds like us, there isnt any real trend line to suggest a rebuild from nothing even works but like us what timeline are we marking them by?
I dont honestly know how you even set a framework to judge Bolton or the rebuild by after 4 years?....is he the next Buckley, Hardwick or the next Guy McKenna...
At 20% I have a pretty fair clue. You'd expect alot better than 4 from 40, 1 from 7. Has there been any worse at this stage of a coaching career? We've won 16 games all up, 75% of them in the first year and a half. That's damning. Don't care what side you have. Sides win that many in a year.
I'd go as far to say BB won't be coaching Carlton next year unless we really turn things around THIS season - 6 or 7 wins minimum.
I'd go as far to say BB won't be coaching Carlton next year unless we really turn things around THIS season - 6 or 7 wins minimum.
Could be right. Our rebuild is not the brainchild of BB. He was hired on staff to implement a part of it. If his part is not progressing as well as expected then he could well be replaced but we can't read the minds of the people running the club.
Not sure where to put this but this is as good a place as any...
Some observations from Lloyd, Bartel and Barrett. Liked Jimmy's thoughts...
https://www.afl.com.au/video/2019-05-15/hey-blues-let-your-kids-show-their-flair
The same folks on here calling for Bolton's head, or putting him on notice, are the same who would have called for Hardwick's, Buckley's and Thompson's heads if they supported those teams :
Geelong 2000-2006 - up and down like a yo-yo
Pies - 2012 -2017 - backwards for 6 seasons, despite a fantastic midfield
Tigers - bundled out in 3 consecutive EF's (13,14,15), then 13th in 2016.
W/L are only a part of a much bigger puzzle. We need to learn from the smart, professional clubs.
You're a funny one. What those 3 clubs were doing during those times was still win plenty of games... just not enough.
What does it matter if I or anyone, if supporting one of those clubs, would have called for a change of senior coach? Nothing. And no-one knows what would have happened had any of them changed their senior coach... might have improved, might have gone backwards, might have achieved about the same. We can speculate, but that means diddly. We just don't know, but what we do know is that they had a good base to launch from and should have been doing better - so those clubs, knowing this, each supported their senior coach in changing his MO and in some instances, some of the people around him with instant results... makes you wonder how much more successful they might have been had their senior coach changed his ways sooner? And to me that's the real message in this... expect success then when it doesn't come, look in the full-length mirror.
I think we're smart enough and not egocentric enough to simply agree to disagree. We see things differently and that doesn't reflect negatively or positively on anyone. And we each, from time to time, dare to speculate which can create some chaos. Difference is delicious. Be boring as all get-out if this forum was full of agreement!! In the end it boils down to how we disagree.
The same folks on here calling for Bolton's head, or putting him on notice, are the same who would have called for Hardwick's, Buckley's and Thompson's heads if they supported those teams :
Geelong 2000-2006 - up and down like a yo-yo
Pies - 2012 -2017 - backwards for 6 seasons, despite a fantastic midfield
Tigers - bundled out in 3 consecutive EF's (13,14,15), then 13th in 2016.
W/L are only a part of a much bigger puzzle. We need to learn from the smart, professional clubs.
Tell me your not comparing those sides, a couple of competitive sides that made finals to our 20% winning record in the 4th year? Richmond started down the bottom and played finals within 4 years, did it 3 years in a row, had a bad year and won a flag. Geelong were regular finalists, Collingwood were still very competitive even if they should've done better. We're 4th year in, 20% winning record, 16 wins in that time, 12 of those in the first year and a half. Won 4 from 40 and 1 from 7 this year and some think we have gone ok although we lost to the Swans, GC, and North, thrashed by the latter who were bottom.
Has there been a coach with a worse record 4th year in?
And there it is. The Carlton way, the Demons way, the Saints way. Not the Pies, Tigers, Hawks or Cats way. And that's the difference. Not looking for an easy target, but actually looking for answers.
Maybe you're right Paul
Perhaps I am a bit entrenched in 'The Carlton Way'
It's hard to shake.
And that's probably why I'm pushing the 'we need wins' wheelbarrow.
I don't know whether we've changed.
I'm actually still not sure whether that ruthlessness is a bad thing and it's more about poor choices we've made.
I do think there is still a puppeteer or two doing their thing and that does cause me some concern for Bolton's future.
The ironic thing is we wont know for certain whether it's worked until we start to 'win' games.
So in the end wins will be the measure.
Maybe you're right Paul
Perhaps I am a bit entrenched in 'The Carlton Way'
It's hard to shake.
And that's probably why I'm pushing the 'we need wins' wheelbarrow.
I don't know whether we've changed.
I'm actually still not sure whether that ruthlessness is a bad thing and it's more about poor choices we've made.
I do think there is still a puppeteer or two doing their thing and that does cause me some concern for Bolton's future.
The ironic thing is we wont know for certain whether it's worked until we start to 'win' games.
So in the end wins will be the measure.
If the past coaching choices have been poor, then you sack the people making the choices, before they have a chance to stuff it up over and over. But IMO, the coaches have not been the problem - some of them may have been one of the problems (or became one), but you can't crash and burn one coach after another (including flag coaches), and then say, "oh we just made poor choices". Sorry, but simply doesn't wash in my view. Even if you believe that Pagan's success was due to Carey, what about Mick ? 4 clubs, and he only stinks it up at Carlton ?
I also don't know whether we really are new, or just pretending. But I simply see nothing good coming from sacking Bolton before the end of 2020, and I don't see how any other coach would do better under the circumstances. I am definitely of the view that if we stick with him, and if the club genuinely backs him and supports him, rather than making him feel like he's coaching for his life, then the wins and flag will come.
Fair points Thry, GWS had massive concessions so they started from poll on the grid, Freo have done it the hard way, some may say on that basis that Ross Lyon is the man for the job given he got them to finals.-
Some may also say that Gold Coast had there own Brendon Bolton with Guy McKenna and that he was the wrong man for the job given their poor record.
Clarkson had linear progression and a flag after 4 years but is that the norm?....I agree that losing one game shouldnt determine Bolton's outcome but then you have to work out where the line in the sand starts, 4, 5, 6 years???
You can argue for sacking Bolton or for retaining him depending on what path you want to go down, you can make a decent case for both...Stkilda and Brisbane have engaged in decent heavy duty rebuilds like us, there isnt any real trend line to suggest a rebuild from nothing even works but like us what timeline are we marking them by?
I dont honestly know how you even set a framework to judge Bolton or the rebuild by after 4 years?....is he the next Buckley, Hardwick or the next Guy McKenna...
That's the thing eb1.
I think Bolton makes all the right noises and in general his tactics makes sense. Hes no mark neeld who after 33 matches couldn't make Melbourne competitive and he had the benefit of fledgling gws and gold coast to get 5 wins (3 off GWS, 1 gold coast his 5th win was against James hird) and Bolton has been fighting with one arm tied behind his back with respect to how dramatic our list management has been.
We need to help him perform optimally as a coach. When he had Neil Craig around we were better. Last year when we left him with minimal support we struggled, and things are trending upwards again with a more settled and better spread of talent and maturity in the team and last but not least Robert walls (speaks volumes we should have someone a little more relevant).
The metrics are trending the right way, the results aren't but evidence points to us getting better rather than not which is all we can hope for at the moment.
For the 4 in 40 brigade, why cut it off there??
Bolton's stats since the beginning of 2017, have him winning 9 matches of the last 52 matches.
Dont let the agenda get in the way of the truth though.
????
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/coaches/Brendon_Bolton.html
If the past coaching choices have been poor, then you sack the people making the choices, before they have a chance to stuff it up over and over. But IMO, the coaches have not been the problem - some of them may have been one of the problems (or became one), but you can't crash and burn one coach after another (including flag coaches), and then say, "oh we just made poor choices". Sorry, but simply doesn't wash in my view. Even if you believe that Pagan's success was due to Carey, what about Mick ? 4 clubs, and he only stinks it up at Carlton ?
I also don't know whether we really are new, or just pretending. But I simply see nothing good coming from sacking Bolton before the end of 2020, and I don't see how any other coach would do better under the circumstances. I am definitely of the view that if we stick with him, and if the club genuinely backs him and supports him, rather than making him feel like he's coaching for his life, then the wins and flag will come.
Really??? You don't think Clarkson would be doing better with this group than BB? :o Wow.
Oh, and if you ask MM he'll tell you he'd have turned the place around in a couple of years.
Really??? You don't think Clarkson would be doing better with this group than BB? :o Wow.
Oh, and if you ask MM he'll tell you he'd have turned the place around in a couple of years.
I don’t think Clarkson, or anyone else for that matter, could get better results with our playing group. Clarkson would probably be less willing to play the youngsters and that could possibly have got us over the line in a couple of games - not that we have senior players setting the NBs alight.
Dear old Mick has been very complimentary about our progress and hopes that we will stay the course :)
It's all hypothetical but I reckon we'd have at least two more wins if Clarkson was in charge. We'd have held on against the Suns and Hawks- he would have engineered something instead of letting the train wreck unfold.
I reckon we'd have at least two more wins if Clarkson was in charge. We'd have held on against the Suns and Hawks- he would have engineered something instead of letting the train wreck unfold.
Last year we would have had runners going out non stop, barking instructions and setting up our inexperienced group in the last minutes of each of our 3 close matches. We are one victims of the new runners rules unfortunately.
I don’t think Clarkson, or anyone else for that matter, could get better results with our playing group.......
We tried the 2 time premiership coach - that didn't work. We tried the 3 time premiership coach - that didn't work. I guess the next "logical" step is a 4 time coach. After that, exhumation, and consulting with the undertaker wrt your choice of mahogany or ebony.
It's all hypothetical but I reckon we'd have at least two more wins if Clarkson was in charge. We'd have held on against the Suns and Hawks- he would have engineered something instead of letting the train wreck unfold.
Hard when you cannot send out a runner to the kids, Clarkson couldn't even stop us scoring until after 1/2 time!
The biggest change a change of coach would bring is a media honeymoon period for the new coach as an excuse for further loses.
Hard when you cannot send out a runner to the kids, Clarkson couldn't even stop us scoring until after 1/2 time!
The biggest change a change of coach would bring is a media honeymoon period for the new coach as an excuse for further loses.
Clarkson could have run onto the field and king hit Grundy midway through the third quarter. That would have given us another W ::)
Since we're talking about winning, we may as well put a number on it. Before the season started my general thoughts were -
4 + minimum
6 + good
8 + excellent
10 + tell 'em they're dreaming
I think i might have said in an old post I was expecting 6 - 8 wins. Only 5 to go !
If we ended up with 4 or 5 I might be inclined to add 1 for all the close ones combined, just to take into account the general improvement (thus far).
My only concern is how we play out the year. For the first time we have no excuse for young bodies tiring late in the season, as we now only have a handful of first 22 in their first or second season. A good match committee who wanted to win games would swap them out if they showed signs of tiring and costing us games. The rest of the season is the true test of how good our coaches are, and how committed our players are. If they can't get another 3 wins, which is my minimum expectation, then something is wrong with one or both of those mobs. While unproven, we have a better team than 1 - 3 wins would indicate, of that I am sure.
My little fella - Grade 1 this year - had a major melt down before class started on Tuesday. Which is not like him at all.
When quizzed by his mother why he wasn't taking his water bottle into his classroom like all the others, he melted down and said he didn't want his class mates to know he went for Carlton! :-[ :-[
(his water bottle is a charlie's crew bottle with his name on it!)
That's why I want wins on the board more than anything!!!!
My little fella - Grade 1 this year - had a major melt down before class started on Tuesday. Which is not like him at all.
When quizzed by his mother why he wasn't taking his water bottle into his classroom like all the others, he melted down and said he didn't want his class mates to know he went for Carlton! :-[ :-[
(his water bottle is a charlie's crew bottle with his name on it!)
That's why I want wins on the board more than anything!!!!
That's a little sad...
But let him know there's change 'a comin'
I used to hate going to school after a Carlton loss...
Once or twice a year it gave the other kids an opportunity to have a shot at me.
Hopefully by the time he hits primary school his problem will be the same as the old days.
And in the days after the flags....well, for a few days you rule the school.
He may still have to hide his bottle....the other kids will want to pinch it.
My little fella - Grade 1 this year - had a major melt down before class started on Tuesday. Which is not like him at all.
When quizzed by his mother why he wasn't taking his water bottle into his classroom like all the others, he melted down and said he didn't want his class mates to know he went for Carlton! :-[ :-[
(his water bottle is a charlie's crew bottle with his name on it!)
That's why I want wins on the board more than anything!!!!
Kids can be cruel.
My youngest chose the Dawks, in the late 90s and early 00s he was the one and only Dawks supporter at his primary school of about 800 kids. On footy day each month kids from one of the winning teams would get to sing their club theme song dressed in club colours at assembly. He had to do that solo, rarely given how ordinary they were through that period, but he did it from about Grade 2 onwards getting some extra support as the years progressed. He copped a heap of flack, of course that is what kids do, but he stuck to his guns and it didn't go unnoticed by the staff. By the time he was Grade 6 the school ended up making him sports captain.
Look who is laughing now!
You're a funny one. What those 3 clubs were doing during those times was still win plenty of games... just not enough.
What does it matter if I or anyone, if supporting one of those clubs, would have called for a change of senior coach? Nothing. And no-one knows what would have happened had any of them changed their senior coach... might have improved, might have gone backwards, might have achieved about the same. We can speculate, but that means diddly. We just don't know, but what we do know is that they had a good base to launch from and should have been doing better - so those clubs, knowing this, each supported their senior coach in changing his MO and in some instances, some of the people around him with instant results... makes you wonder how much more successful they might have been had their senior coach changed his ways sooner? And to me that's the real message in this... expect success then when it doesn't come, look in the full-length mirror.
I think we're smart enough and not egocentric enough to simply agree to disagree. We see things differently and that doesn't reflect negatively or positively on anyone. And we each, from time to time, dare to speculate which can create some chaos. Difference is delicious. Be boring as all get-out if this forum was full of agreement!! In the end it boils down to how we disagree.
The difference with those 3 sides that Paul mentioned, I think, is that none of them went back to the beginning for an entire rebuild as we have done. I truly believe that we have to allow Bolton to at least have a shot at being able to coach the rebuilt side....Bringing in another bloke to coach a side that's ready made & them giving them credit for results is pretty skewed to be fair. It's like giving Ross Lyon credit for the Saints....or a little closer to home, Wallsy too much credit for building the 1986/87 sides (which were Parkins doing).
Anyway, I hope he gets another full year to fine tune a side that finally, has some significant upside.
That's a little sad...
But let him know there's change 'a comin'
I used to hate going to school after a Carlton loss...
Once or twice a year it gave the other kids an opportunity to have a shot at me.
Hopefully by the time he hits primary school his problem will be the same as the old days.
And in the days after the flags....well, for a few days you rule the school.
He may still have to hide his bottle....the other kids will want to pinch it.
I did remind him that CFC in the history of the game has won more premierships than anyone and that we'd very likely win another one before the likes of Essendon, Hawthorn, GWS, Melbourne, St Kilda and a good few others.
I have offered to get him a new water bottle all the same! ;D
The difference with those 3 sides that Paul mentioned, I think, is that none of them went back to the beginning for an entire rebuild as we have done. I truly believe that we have to allow Bolton to at least have a shot at being able to coach the rebuilt side....Bringing in another bloke to coach a side that's ready made & them giving them credit for results is pretty skewed to be fair.........................
Anyway, I hope he gets another full year to fine tune a side that finally, has some significant upside.
I agree Mal, but it's not just the gouging of the list / extent of rebuild. It's about the clubs behind the teams. Those 3 among others are analytical and professional - they don't kow-tow to the whims of the media and certain supporter groups. They think and analyse properly, and then make good decisions. We could learn much from them. I hope we have learnt from them.
It's not about the past. It's about the future. We ran the Hawks to the wire, and apart from the siren and a couple of other issues, we could have won. This is the same Hawks team that completely dismantled and arrested the Giants only 2 weeks later - a much more heralded and fancied opponent.
Our blokes haven't won much recently, and yet still play with real spirit, with real vim and vigour. They are not the bad news Bears from decades ago. Getting them up and passionate and enthused after our last few years is a real credit to Bolton and co. In years gone past, the boys would have turned their toes up long ago.
If you want to see a coaching car wreck, mark neeld record is the one.
5 wins in 33 matches, 3 of which came against gws in their first two seasons and 1 against gold coast. 1 win against hirds bombers after their 2012 wheels fell off with plenty of big losses.
If you want to see a coaching car wreck, mark neeld record is the one.
5 wins in 33 matches, 3 of which came against gws in their first two seasons and 1 against gold coast. 1 win against hirds bombers after their 2012 wheels fell off with plenty of big losses.
You realise we have won 4 games in 40 games?
On our list we have 4 pick 1's
A pick 2
2 x pick 3's
A pick 4
A pick 5
2 x pick 6's
2 x pick 10's
2 x pick 12's
2 x pick 13's
1 x pick 16
I don't think there is a bigger car wreck than us atm
I probably wouldn’t call us a car wreck yet. Season isn’t over yet. We won’t see what progress we have made before then. I am not completely thrilled by our current win loss ratio. However I see real potential if we sort a few things out.
I probably wouldn’t call us a car wreck yet. Season isn’t over yet. We won’t see what progress we have made before then. I am not completely thrilled by our current win loss ratio. However I see real potential if we sort a few things out.
like winning?
My little fella - Grade 1 this year - had a major melt down before class started on Tuesday. Which is not like him at all.
When quizzed by his mother why he wasn't taking his water bottle into his classroom like all the others, he melted down and said he didn't want his class mates to know he went for Carlton! :-[ :-[
(his water bottle is a charlie's crew bottle with his name on it!)
That's why I want wins on the board more than anything!!!!
My boy is the same age.
We are in NSW so he is mostly shielded from the poor performances.
He just started Auskick this year, and I am taking him to his first game this weekend vs GWS. Hoping for at least a good showing by our lads for his sake, but I am not confident of being anywhere near them.
My boy is the same age.
We are in NSW so he is mostly shielded from the poor performances.
He just started Auskick this year, and I am taking him to his first game this weekend vs GWS. Hoping for at least a good showing by our lads for his sake, but I am not confident of being anywhere near them.
Hopefully he'll witness a win! Go Blues.
If you want to see a coaching car wreck, mark neeld record is the one.
5 wins in 33 matches, 3 of which came against gws in their first two seasons and 1 against gold coast. 1 win against hirds bombers after their 2012 wheels fell off with plenty of big losses.
Not sure that helps Bolton to be honest....Neeld sacked at a 15% winning percentage from 33 games and Bolton going at 10% from his last 40 games, mathematically he is cooked IMO if you want
to discuss his future. If he survives it will be for the perceived goodwill for the future that gives him added value.
You realise we have won 4 games in 40 games?
On our list we have 4 pick 1's
A pick 2
2 x pick 3's
A pick 4
A pick 5
2 x pick 6's
2 x pick 10's
2 x pick 12's
2 x pick 13's
1 x pick 16
I don't think there is a bigger car wreck than us atm
And them the facts. Stark reality. (And you could throw Cuningham and Stocker into that as another two 1st round picks).
Yep the close losses are a fantasy.
They're not real wins, they're wins that didn't happen
They're excuses, valid ones in some cases.
They give us a bit of hope.
But what they give us hope for is that we can give a good effort on the day.
They wont show up in record books and probably wont be remembered by us in ten years time when we think back on this period.
I remember Blight kicking a goal from the opposite goal square, I remember Kernahan hitting the behind post for a draw, Fevola missed one for a few metres out one year....I don't remember the reasons for too many more close losses.
Bolton gets credit for the way we've played in most games this year.
But the difference between a close loss and a close win is as wide as the Grand Canyon.
Disagree lods.
If it was a once off, like say under Pagan, then yes, Grand Canyon. But thats because we'd have to play at our best, and the opposition at their worst, to eek out a victory back then.
Nowadays, we're in games up to our eyeballs, and not exactly playing brilliant footy.
We don't have to kick 11 goals straight, and the opposition 7.23 to get a victory.
We have been on the verge of winning games this year despite...
1. Not turning up for a half
2. Not getting a free kick in a half
3. Not being able to kick it through the big sticks.
etc
We are consistently in games. The difference between a win and a loss is as small as crossing the road, not the grand canyon.
Close losses are to look back on with regret not to build your future on. Just my opinion.
Disagree lods.
If it was a once off, like say under Pagan, then yes, Grand Canyon. But thats because we'd have to play at our best, and the opposition at their worst, to eek out a victory back then.
Nowadays, we're in games up to our eyeballs, and not exactly playing brilliant footy.
We don't have to kick 11 goals straight, and the opposition 7.23 to get a victory.
We have been on the verge of winning games this year despite...
1. Not turning up for a half
2. Not getting a free kick in a half
3. Not being able to kick it through the big sticks.
etc
We are consistently in games. The difference between a win and a loss is as small as crossing the road, not the grand canyon.
We were in 2017 too. 6 wins and 7 losses were we led during the last qtr, many against very good sides. Gone back since then. We need to get past that and win. 4th year in losing to the GC, Sydney here in Melbourne and North were not an option. Rather than worrying about those things we just have to start winning. After this week we get a big run of winnable games. Obviously won't be winning, all but we must win quite a few of them.
Disagree lods.
If it was a once off, like say under Pagan, then yes, Grand Canyon. But thats because we'd have to play at our best, and the opposition at their worst, to eek out a victory back then.
Nowadays, we're in games up to our eyeballs, and not exactly playing brilliant footy.
We don't have to kick 11 goals straight, and the opposition 7.23 to get a victory.
We have been on the verge of winning games this year despite...
1. Not turning up for a half
2. Not getting a free kick in a half
3. Not being able to kick it through the big sticks.
etc
We are consistently in games. The difference between a win and a loss is as small as crossing the road, not the grand canyon.
Nah
Kruds
Once they're gone they're soon forgotten.
In 2006 (under Pagan) we lost 7 games by less than 20 points....and finished last
We could probably point to similar moments (excuses) in many of those games.
You realise we have won 4 games in 40 games?
On our list we have 4 pick 1's
A pick 2
2 x pick 3's
A pick 4
A pick 5
2 x pick 6's
2 x pick 10's
2 x pick 12's
2 x pick 13's
1 x pick 16
I don't think there is a bigger car wreck than us atm
You do realise that that's spin and hes actually won 9 matches in the last 52 right? That's a dramatic swing in winning percentage to include the whole of 2017 rather than just the part after Murphy got injured.
Still it wouldn't be a forum without some bullcrap.
You do realise that that's spin and hes actually won 9 matches in the last 52 right? That's a dramatic swing in winning percentage to include the whole of 2017 rather than just the part after Murphy got injured.
Still it wouldn't be a forum without some bullcrap.
Or 3 in 30 since the start of 2018.
Or 1 in 7 this year,
It's all spin to suit the argument :D
Or 3 in 30 since the start of 2018.
Or 1 in 7 this year,
It's all spin to suit the argument :D
Nah let me spin it to prove a point. Let's start at round 3 of 2017, when our wins begin and drop the first to rounds of 2017.
That way he can have a 9 from 50 record.
We can keep debating the past forever. The focus for me is the future. The team is coming together, the metrics are improving, the pieces of the puzzle are coming together. The final piece of the puzzle is wins, and IMO they will come.
There is no spin saying we have won 3 from 30 since the start of last season. It's a cold hard fact.
We were in 2017 too. 6 wins and 7 losses were we led during the last qtr, many against very good sides. Gone back since then. We need to get past that and win. 4th year in losing to the GC, Sydney here in Melbourne and North were not an option. Rather than worrying about those things we just have to start winning. After this week we get a big run of winnable games. Obviously won't be winning, all but we must win quite a few of them.
Point i'm making is this Jimbo.
We are so close to a win, that we are doing everything possible to avoid them currently. You couldn't predict how bad our luck is.
1. Against Gold Coast, leading 100mins of football. Lose it in the last minute.
2. Against Hawks, dominating for a half, fell asleep for the 2nd, still a mere 1.5 seconds away from having a shot for goal to win the match after the siren. Harry marked the ball while the siren was still blowing FFS!
3. Against the pies, 2 free kicks in the half to lose it in the last couple of minutes of the game. Goals which on any other day would never have happened because those (non-paid) free kicks change the course of the game.
4. Against Sydney we had more scoring shots, they couldn't miss the goals, and Buddy was dominated, but still looked after by the umps on 2 occasions.
I said the other day, that if it had've been one of our boys that climbed the post, the free kick against for doing so would definitely have been paid, thus losing the game. THAT is the kind of trend we are currently in.
So, with all of this bad luck, we are due for some wins, and plenty of them. I suggested as much before the Dogs game. No way could we be THAT unlucky again, and was proved right. Dominated the game, won all 4 quarters. There will be more of that coming our way shortly.....and you better get used to it because it will be a lot more frequent soon enough.
Tanking for the mid season draft...and then we'll let loose ;) :D
Point i'm making is this Jimbo.
We are so close to a win, that we are doing everything possible to avoid them currently. You couldn't predict how bad our luck is.
1. Against Gold Coast, leading 100mins of football. Lose it in the last minute.
2. Against Hawks, dominating for a half, fell asleep for the 2nd, still a mere 1.5 seconds away from having a shot for goal to win the match after the siren. Harry marked the ball while the siren was still blowing FFS!
3. Against the pies, 2 free kicks in the half to lose it in the last couple of minutes of the game. Goals which on any other day would never have happened because those (non-paid) free kicks change the course of the game.
4. Against Sydney we had more scoring shots, they couldn't miss the goals, and Buddy was dominated, but still looked after by the umps on 2 occasions.
I said the other day, that if it had've been one of our boys that climbed the post, the free kick against for doing so would definitely have been paid, thus losing the game. THAT is the kind of trend we are currently in.
So, with all of this bad luck, we are due for some wins, and plenty of them. I suggested as much before the Dogs game. No way could we be THAT unlucky again, and was proved right. Dominated the game, won all 4 quarters. There will be more of that coming our way shortly.....and you better get used to it because it will be a lot more frequent soon enough.
Yep.
One more thing, we have done all of this whilst carrying players giving us minimal game day contribution.
McGovern's time on ground percentage is very low for a mature player.
Lochie o'Brien was giving us minimal. Ditto garlett and poison when they played.
We are falling short largely because of this.
You do realise that that's spin and hes actually won 9 matches in the last 52 right? That's a dramatic swing in winning percentage to include the whole of 2017 rather than just the part after Murphy got injured.
Still it wouldn't be a forum without some bullcrap.
Yeah ok that’s spin but the 8 quarters won is what?
It’s either fact or it isn’t
4 from 40 is fact
3 from 30 is fact
Spin is trying to say Murphy would have made a difference
Yeah ok that’s spin but the 8 quarters won is what?
It’s either fact or it isn’t
4 from 40 is fact
3 from 30 is fact
Spin is trying to say Murphy would have made a difference
no it's not. Spin is using selective statistics. Why not use 9 in 50?
As for Murphy getting injured its positively true.
Food for thought. The middle of that season was the last time we had all 3 of docherty, Murphy and cripps on field together with Matthew kreuzer not being broken every 3 games.
As for Murphy getting injured its positively true.
Yep it is.
His impact tho.
SFA.
no it's not. Spin is using selective statistics. Why not use 9 in 50?
54 games ago Sydney were the favourites going into the 2016 Grand Final. Ancient history.
All that matters is now.
54 games ago Sydney were the favourites going into the 2016 Grand Final. Ancient history.
All that matters is now.
I'll point to where weve finished over the last 20 years as to why it still matters.
I'll point to where weve finished over the last 20 years as to why it still matters.
Can we have a COLA?
Carlton
Overdue
Lifeline
Allowance