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Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #60 –
Quote from: PaulP on
W/L are only a part of a much bigger puzzle. We need to learn from the smart, professional clubs.

The problem is Paul that you cant complete this puzzle without one vital piece.
Wins!

It's rather bizarre really..

The win/ loss record is the reality.
The games 'we should have won' are the fantasy
The "we'll be right if we're just patient" is the prophecy.

The only way for things to play out as the 'patient'  people and the 'impatient' ones wish is exactly the same thing...a winning side!

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #61 –
Quote from: Lods on
The problem is Paul that you cant complete this puzzle without one vital piece.
Wins!

It's rather bizarre really..

The win/ loss record is the reality.
The games 'we should have won' are the fantasy
The "we'll be right if we're just patient" is the prophecy.

The only way for things to play out as the 'patient'  people and the 'impatient' ones wish is exactly the same thing...a winning side!

What I wish for more than anything is a professionally run club, one that follows good precedent, good process and one that looks at things holistically. Understanding metrics beyond W/L is not fantasy. Otherwise Hardwick, Buckley and Thompson would have been sacked long ago. Understanding that losses against GC, Hawks, Pies were due to inexperience, luck, umpiring etc. is not fantasy. We cannot be right in each game up to our teeth, give Bolton no credit for that, then when we lose in the dying seconds, say he's crap.

Look back over the last 20 years, and tell me which clubs change coaches every 5 seconds - the good ones, or the crap ones ?

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #62 –
Quote from: PaulP on
The same folks on here calling for Bolton's head, or putting him on notice, are the same who would have called for Hardwick's, Buckley's and Thompson's heads if they supported those teams :

Geelong 2000-2006 - up and down like a yo-yo
Pies - 2012 -2017 - backwards for 6 seasons, despite a fantastic midfield
Tigers - bundled out in 3 consecutive EF's (13,14,15), then 13th in 2016.

W/L are only a part of a much bigger puzzle. We need to learn from the smart, professional clubs.

None of those teams were basket cases, wooden spoon material etc from a scorched earth rebuild......as much as SOS has said its easy to build a midpack team thats where those clubs launched from.
Scorched earth rebuilds are unchartered waters, there isnt a owners manual that you can refer to or any statistical basis to suggest what is right or wrong.




Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #63 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
None of those teams were basket cases, wooden spoon material etc from a scorched earth rebuild......as much as SOS has said its easy to build a midpack team thats where those clubs launched from.
Scorched earth rebuilds are unchartered waters, there isnt a owners manual that you can refer to or any statistical basis to suggest what is right or wrong.

I agree, but I wish to make the following 2 points :
- your post is precisely why we need to see the process through, with the main protagonists on board.
- the fact remains, that there were a large contingent of Pies and Tigers supporters who wanted Hardwick and Buckley gone, even though those clubs took a much less risky approach.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #64 –
Yep the close losses are a fantasy.
They're not real wins, they're wins that didn't happen
They're excuses, valid ones in some cases.
They give us a bit of hope.
But what they give us hope for is that we can give a good effort on the day.
They wont show up in record books and probably wont be remembered by us in ten years time when we think back on this period.

I remember Blight kicking a goal from the opposite goal square, I remember Kernahan hitting the behind post for  a draw, Fevola missed one for a few metres out one year....I don't remember the reasons for too many more close losses.

Bolton gets credit for the way we've played in most games this year.
But the difference between a close loss and a close win is as wide as the Grand Canyon.


Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #65 –
Quote from: PaulP on
I agree, but I wish to make the following 2 points :
- your post is precisely why we need to see the process through, with the main protagonists on board.
- the fact remains, that there were a large contingent of Pies and Tigers supporters who wanted Hardwick and Buckley gone, even though those clubs took a much less risky approach.

This probably goes to the heart of things...
Some see Bolton and the process as inseparable.
I don't see it that way because he came late to the process.
And my worry is that others who were more invested at the beginning would see it the same way.
It's why I have concerns that if we don't start winning games there is an easy target before others are held accountable.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #66 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
None of those teams were basket cases, wooden spoon material etc from a scorched earth rebuild......as much as SOS has said its easy to build a midpack team thats where those clubs launched from.
Scorched earth rebuilds are unchartered waters, there isnt a owners manual that you can refer to or any statistical basis to suggest what is right or wrong.

Given thats the case EB1, does that mean that we need to look at a newbie team entering the competition as a point of reference?

Given the concessions afforded to them, that would mean we need additional patience to go with that.

Effectively, we are talking about GWS winning last in 2012, 2013, 16th in 2014, 11th in 2015, and then finals football.

Have done more of the Gold Coast version rebuild?

17th, 17th, 14th, 12th, 16th, 15th, 17th, 17th....


What about Freo?

It took them 8 years to play finals....


Anything predating then is a little bit difficult as a basis for comparison as the competition was too different regarding player movement (form 4's for the addition of Brisbane, West Coast and Adelaide).


Food for thought everyone:

https://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-02-15/clarko-almost-sacked-in-2010


Imagine they had lost that day.  A 3 point margin is one kick.  One kick resulting in a goal.  To change 1 result.  Had they ditched Clarkson, we would have no idea how it would pan out from that day forward, but the one thing I can determine, is that one result SHOULDNT be that important to Brendan Boltons position.  Its not like we won a flag two years ago.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #67 –
Quote from: Lods on
This probably goes to the heart of things...
Some see Bolton and the process as inseparable.
I don't see it that way because he came late to the process.
And my worry is that others who were more invested at the beginning would see it the same way.
It's why I have concerns that if we don't start winning games there is an easy target before others are held accountable.

And there it is. The Carlton way, the Demons way, the Saints way. Not the Pies, Tigers, Hawks or Cats way. And that's the difference. Not looking for an easy target, but actually looking for answers.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #68 –
Quote from: PaulP on
And there it is. The Carlton way, the Demons way, the Saints way. Not the Pies, Tigers, Hawks or Cats way. And that's the difference. Not looking for an easy target, but actually looking for answers.

Well we don't know that that is still the case do we? People on here and in the media speculate and opine about it based probably on actions taken in the past by the club. There has been no indication from the club itself as yet as to what might be in the minds of the management apart from sticking with the plan. It is a bit premature then to talk about "The Carlton Way" in the old sense in respect of this situation don't you think? Certainly the idea of a ground up rebuild is not the Carlton Way of past eras.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #69 –
Quote from: cookie2 on
Well we don't know that that is still the case do we? People on here and in the media speculate and opine about it based probably on actions taken in the past by the club. There has been no indication from the club itself as yet as to what might be in the minds of the management apart from sticking with the plan. It is a bit premature then to talk about "The Carlton Way" in the old sense in respect of this situation don't you think? Certainly the idea of a ground up rebuild is not the Carlton Way of past eras.

We'll find out soon enough - is it a real, thorough rebuild, or just a new facade over the existing structure ?

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #70 –
And I was responding to lods' comment that if the wins don't some soon, the club will go looking for easy targets.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #71 –
Quote from: PaulP on
We'll find out soon enough - is it a real, thorough rebuild, or just a new facade over the existing structure ?

We will indeed. In the meantime, without any statements from the club to the contrary, the rebuild plan continues to unfold, but opinions outside the club continue to swirl unabated.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #72 –
Quote from: PaulP on
And I was responding to lods' comment that if the wins don't some soon, the club will go looking for easy targets.

We'll see on that too I guess - just an opinion.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #73 –
Quote from: Thryleon on
Given thats the case EB1, does that mean that we need to look at a newbie team entering the competition as a point of reference?

Given the concessions afforded to them, that would mean we need additional patience to go with that.

Effectively, we are talking about GWS winning last in 2012, 2013, 16th in 2014, 11th in 2015, and then finals football.

Have done more of the Gold Coast version rebuild?

17th, 17th, 14th, 12th, 16th, 15th, 17th, 17th....


What about Freo?

It took them 8 years to play finals....


Anything predating then is a little bit difficult as a basis for comparison as the competition was too different regarding player movement (form 4's for the addition of Brisbane, West Coast and Adelaide).


Food for thought everyone:

https://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-02-15/clarko-almost-sacked-in-2010


Imagine they had lost that day.  A 3 point margin is one kick.  One kick resulting in a goal.  To change 1 result.  Had they ditched Clarkson, we would have no idea how it would pan out from that day forward, but the one thing I can determine, is that one result SHOULDNT be that important to Brendan Boltons position.  Its not like we won a flag two years ago.

Fair points Thry, GWS had massive concessions so they started from poll on the grid, Freo have done it the hard way, some may say on that basis that Ross Lyon is the man for the job given he got them to finals.-
Some may also say that Gold Coast had there own Brendon Bolton with Guy McKenna and that he was the wrong man for the job given their poor record.

Clarkson had linear progression and a flag after 4 years but is that the norm?....I agree that losing one game shouldnt determine Bolton's outcome but then you have to work out where the line in the sand starts, 4, 5, 6 years???

You can argue for sacking Bolton or for retaining him depending on what path you want to go down, you can make a decent case for both...Stkilda and Brisbane have engaged in decent heavy duty rebuilds like us, there isnt any real trend line to suggest a rebuild from nothing even works but like us what timeline are we marking them by?

I dont honestly know how you even set a framework to judge Bolton or the rebuild by after 4 years?....is he the next Buckley, Hardwick or the next Guy McKenna...

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #74 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
..................

I dont honestly know how you even set a framework to judge Bolton or the rebuild by after 4 years?....is he the next Buckley, Hardwick or the next Guy McKenna...

If the club has any professionalism, they will indeed have a framework and metrics for judging this. He could be the next anything, great or terrible. We won't know if we short change the process, and if we fail to look at the bigger picture.