Carlton Supporters Club

All ready for Sunday.

Well the 'elephants in the room'have been addressed.

We're not a one man tream.
And....Teague can coach ;D

Da di Da di Darr... Da di Da di screwing Darr

Well the 'elephants in the room'have been addressed.

We're not a one man tream.
And....Teague can coach ;D

Beat me to it.

....and we are rising up the ladder too!
17th now.
Gold Coast last.

Got our sights set on Melbourne next.

Very well done

Well the 'elephants in the room'have been addressed.

We're not a one man tream.
And....Teague can coach ;D

Correct in every way.

Suck that up Adelaide!!!

Big game next week. We actually play Melbourne.

Win and we are ahead of them on the ladder too.

What a classic!! Great win - best game I've seen for many a long year. A real belief builder without three of our star players. Well done Teague!

As an aside, I know everyone really put in tonight but I really liked the look of Kennedy's game and maybe he's going to make it after all. And that's aside from his 2 goals. I won't mention Paddy Dow's rush of blood to the head - hopefully a lesson learned.

Gotta love that. The better team by a long long way today. With only 21 fit players.

Teague can coach his way into the permanent job if he keeps this up.

One of our best wins since we won our last final - can't think of a better one right now anyway.

Big game next week. We actually play Melbourne.

Win and we are ahead of them on the ladder too.

No jokes. This is true, but it will be a hard game. I can’t see this be an easy win by either side. Too much to lose for each side.

Wow! We had it, lost it, Got it back ????????????????????????

Sooooo bloody good to get a win for the young boys!!!

How did we do that? Set ourselves up for another honourable loss and won. Can't remember when that last happened. Amazing what a better coach can do.  The tears in big K's eyes said a lot.

How good does this feel? So proud of the boys. No Cripps, McKay or Charlie and to pull that out. That was immense <3

Well the 'elephants in the room'have been addressed.

We're not a one man tream.
And....Teague can coach ;D

So it appears! :) :)
Haven't seen a minute yet, but my wife just got Kayo (to watch the cricket), so I'm going to enjoy it soon!

We're a big chance for two wins out of the next three ... minimum.  Teague took on the role and has done himself no harm whatsoever.  Oh, for what could have been as I sense a new direction has dawned.

How good does this feel? So proud of the boys. No Cripps, McKay or Charlie and to pull that out. That was immense <3

We looked a much better balanced team, two rucks floating forward with a couple of tall marking targets surrounded mostly by runners.

So it appears! :) :)
Haven't seen a minute yet, but my wife just got Kayo (to watch the cricket), so I'm going to enjoy it soon!

Buckle in, it was quite the roller coaster! Literally til the end!!

So it appears! :) :)
Haven't seen a minute yet, but my wife just got Kayo (to watch the cricket), so I'm going to enjoy it soon!

Ask her to split the screen...lol

Ask her to split the screen...lol

Carlton on one screen, F1 on the other!

A win of bona fide character. One of our best wins in a long time.

Beat a top 8 side in reasonable form on THEIR dung heap. Bl00dy well done BlueBaggers. Bravo.

Not a bad goal by Murf at the death.. At least he won't get bagged for another week.

Un friggin believable. Don't think anyone of us would not have thought here's another heartbreaking loss. I was already swearing at the TV with the minute to go. No way could we win, but there you go. Terrific stuff. We deserve to win one of those. God knows we've copped the pain.
Kreuz for mine was BOG. Imagine if those pathetic excuses for umpires had of paid the countless free kicks he deserved. Worst ruck contest umpiring I've seen. He is the key this great man. If only he wasn't so fragile.
Great way to end the weekend.
 :) :D

Old firm showed great leadership, Simmo, Daisy & Murph take a bow!

Yep, two of our old boys in Kreuz and Murph were instrumental in the win for sure. Ed got 16 clearances just quietly.

Not a bad goal by Murf at the death.. At least he won't get bagged for another week.

Was a classy goal and he really did play well today and was good when we were not going so good early.
Always nice to beat a Ross Lyon coached team, his pressers are a classic.

Yep, two of our old boys in Kreuz and Murph were instrumental in the win for sure. Ed got 16 clearances just quietly.

16 clearances is elite. Well done, Ed Curnow!

16 clearances is elite. Well done, Ed Curnow!

It begs the question, why have that type of player sitting on a HFF?

Some seriously strange moves

Carlton on one screen, F1 on the other!

F1 on the other 3. ;)

Make use of the timing screen and in-car camera too ;)

What a roller coaster today.
Goalless first quarter, a fight back, got our noses in front near the end to have them take the lead with a minute left, but some smurph magic got us over the line.
I think I scared the neighbours with the scream I let out with that last goal.
And the best part is it was against freo. I hate freo, they’re like West Collingwood to me.

It begs the question, why have that type of player sitting on a HFF?

Some seriously strange moves

Kennedy looked the goods there. Teague can certainly see things that Bolton couldn't.

16 clearances is elite. Well done, Ed Curnow!

Think 20 contested possessions too. 32 all up. Just what we needed with Cripps out.

10 goal kickers, and nary a forward among them.

Not a bad goal by Murf at the death.. At least he won't get bagged for another week.

That was his best game in ages. Confidence shot up about a million %. Calmly stepped inside the defender to kick that banana. Great sign. Epic game.

Ed was equally brilliant. Sheer will power - kept slamming the ball forward all game.

SOS on Fyfe was awesome. 7 tackles and nailed that set shot from the boundary. Has to be his best ever game.

Samo and Fisher were good.

Walsh was awesome - 30 pos and 8 tackles. We need to get his wrist X-rayed - he can't be 19.

Quick question: Why do we have to give the opposition 30-40 point head start before we kick in?

Can I just add - 2 of Freo's goals were clear tackles of the Carlton player on the line.

1 more was Walters ducking his head.

It would have been a cheat of a win had they won it.

What a roller coaster today.
Goalless first quarter, a fight back, got our noses in front near the end to have them take the lead with a minute left, but some smurph magic got us over the line.
I think I scared the neighbours with the scream I let out with that last goal.
And the best part is it was against freo. I hate freo, they’re like West Collingwood to me.

I scared the crap out of my wife with that last goal from Murphy. From all reports he had a ripper, led from the front. Wonder if spanner will give him any credit.

Gòoooooooooo Bluesss

That was his best game in ages. Confidence shot up about a million %. Calmly stepped inside the defender to kick that banana. Great sign. Epic game.

Ed was equally brilliant. Sheer will power - kept slamming the ball forward all game.

SOS on Fyfe was awesome. 7 tackles and nailed that set shot from the boundary. Has to be his best ever game.

Samo and Fisher were good.

Walsh was awesome - 30 pos and 8 tackles. We need to get his wrist X-rayed - he can't be 19.

Quick question: Why do we have to give the opposition 30-40 point head start before we kick in?

Sam Walsh - 30 disposals but disposal efficiency of 33%
Wasn’t a day for disposal efficiency though - whole team went at 60%
Kennedy at 100% though. And next best was Dow at 85%

Sam Walsh - 30 disposals but disposal efficiency of 33%
Wasn’t a day for disposal efficiency though - whole team went at 60%
Kennedy at 100% though. And next best was Dow at 85%

Yeah was a scrappy game but Walsh didn't have his most polished game. Needs to straighten up his kicking for goal in particular. For a 19 year old - that level of effort is incredible though. He just keeps running.

great viewing and a great team performance

a lot has been made of the old firm of Kreuz, Casboult, E Curnow, Murphy, Thomas, Jones & Simpson, but I thought JSOS, Samo, Dow (bar one poor decision to play on), Fisher, Obrien, Marchbank, OBrien all had great games after quarter time.

Plenty to work on - we need more from Mitch, Walsh's disposal needs work and Plowman makes way too many mistakes, ditto Newman. Kennedy was important but still way too slow. Can we get more from Setterfield?

Blue skys ahead with McKay, Cripps, C Curnow, Cunningham, Williamson & Docherty (when fit) & a developing DeKoning/Stocker will make us hard to beat. there's 8 players that could walk straight into our side!!

Gee it's good to see moves being made when we're in strife. That move of SOJ onto Fyffe turned out to be a ripper... as JEZA said, gotta be SOJ's best game in terms of contribution and impact. Quelling Fyffe was a huge effort.

Also good to see LOB show some mongrel and back himself.

So good to hear commentators singing our praises.

What a fckn ripper win.

I liked the commentry about SPS's big tackle: He put a saddle on him and rode him like a bull. :)

I liked Setterfields game, steady and mature.....Jack was excellent and his goal was a ripper and really gave the team hope.
SPS also used the ball well and was composed, just needs to play four quarters, when he goes missing he really is a non event but when he is on he is excellent.
The other bloke who needs a mention is a whipping boy of mine in Marchbank, thought he played very well, took some good marks and played 4 quarters, couple of average kicks, but in those conditions you accept that will happen but played the best game I have seen from him.
Walsh was sloppy with the ball but he is like the Duracell bunny and just keeps on keeping on,Brad Hill vs LOB was a nil all draw so I'll give that a win to LOB on points even though I remain unconvinced about him but credit where its due to LOB as Hill is a decent opponent and keeping him to an average day really helped.
I thought Murphy was our best player for 4 quarters, good when it was tough early and sealed the deal at the end, cant ask for much more especially with Cripps out.

Well....

   
Prediction:

We'll go much better than expected.  Someone to really announce their afl credentials in cripps absence, a gallant 3.5 quarter effort where we lose by 4 goals at the death.

Cripps emerged after Judd went down with his knee.

Now it's time for one of Kennedy, setterfield or jsos to give us an eye opener.

If we win this weekend I reckon locking in Teague as our next senior coach.  

Everything but the result and the scoreline.

For those saying Charlie is playing differently his collision occured in the centre square.

Must of started getting creative with interpretation or something...

 :D

As an aside, I know everyone really put in tonight but I really liked the look of Kennedy's game and maybe he's going to make it after all. And that's aside from his 2 goals.

I don't think that I called him a spud although I definitely feared that he might be one.  :-X

But credit where credit is due - he finally showed something today, albeit as a forward, rather than as a midfielder. Good move by Teaguey.

It's late, but I wanted to acknowledge how wrong I was before the day's done. I had to leave to attend to my daughter's health, missed last 3 q's :-\

I'm very happy to eat my words????
Freo didn't win by 5 goals. Although that's exactly the score before I left.

What a gutsy show of trust, determination, and perserverence. Looks like the old boys led the way.
So pleased for all concerned.

The big difference between Bolts and Teague on game day. Teague is quick to respond and confident to make changes.

Happy Monday Bluebaggers
????????????

The game was won on heart, effort, will, desperation and luck. Once again, behind on the scoreboard most of the night, and just got in our noses in front when the final siren sounds, topped off by some vintage Murphy Magic™. The best thing for me was the reaction from the players when they won - their elation was palpable, and I was so happy for them, having put in plenty of work under Bolts and Teague. And to do it without the stars was a bonus.

But let's face it, the game was mostly devoid of skill, and system or method seemed to disappear in large parts. This "hack it forward at all costs" idea, which seemed to increase as the game wore on, is not a platform for future success. We won't be troubling too many teams with that.

What I loved and what I loved about our Dogs game the other week, was that it is enjoyable to watch - the push forward is what I enjoy, not this sideways, backwards - they did the backwards a few times but just to do the switch and the few times they did it, it worked.

I was wanting them to set up plays and was frustrated with the bombing into F50 and hoping, but Gov was way off the boil and the ground, mentally under 4th Q and we had no one else really. 

Was just so really pleasing for them to get a win, when Freo got that last goal my heart broke for the boys, again.  So good to see them push forward and deliver  :))

The game was won on heart, effort, will, desperation and luck. Once again, behind on the scoreboard most of the night, and just got in our noses in front when the final siren sounds, topped off by some vintage Murphy Magic™. The best thing for me was the reaction from the players when they won - their elation was palpable, and I was so happy for them, having put in plenty of work under Bolts and Teague. And to do it without the stars was a bonus.

But let's face it, the game was mostly devoid of skill, and system or method seemed to disappear in large parts. This "hack it forward at all costs" idea, which seemed to increase as the game wore on, is not a platform for future success. We won't be troubling too many teams with that.

Actually, that was the Richmond way in 2017. Scrub it in there the best way you can then fight like crap to keep it there with enough pressure eventually forcing the defence to break. F50 pressure is obviously very important. Like Richmond back then it eventually broke down the opposition in the last qtr where we kicked 5 goals. Interesting we went that way once our forward line lost Charlie. If we couldn't get it in cleanly we knocked it on, kicked it off the ground etc, anything to keep the ball going forward.

What a great win and how good is it to win a close one  :)

The positives for me are that Jones picked up where he left off, Kennedy played like he belonged (and I’m expecting improvement), Jack did a great job on Fyfe in the second half, O’Brien kept Hill quiet (but should have made more of his scoring opportunities), Casboult continued his good form in a different role and, most importantly, we managed win a nail-biter!

The umpiring was confusing (what’s new?).  Kreuzer was robbed of at least a dozen free kicks for blatant pushes in the back in ruck contests.  Fortunately, our mids were able to intercept or neutralise most of Darcy’s hitouts.

It was interesting to hear the commentators state that Teague had said that we wouldn’t be tagging then immediately call hard tags on Fyfe and Hill.  The full forward staying within 50m (or was it 30m) of goal tactic was clearly abandoned - if it ever existed  :-\

Finally, it was fitting for Murphy to cap off his game with the winning goal and it was great to see the boys get around him and the obvious pleasure he displayed in his post game interview.

We’re off the bottom! Go Blues  :)

Having Cripps out was a blessing .
The team had to step up and did

Good moves by Teague to play SOJ on Fyfe in the second half
and O’Brien on Hill

Jones is fearless in the air. Has really tightened up and we walk taller with him out there. Courageous after his concussion issues

We looked better with a smaller forward line. We were able to lock it in the forward line better.

The last 10 minutes was off the charts.
Great to be there and let’s hope we continue to improve in the latter part of the year

JSOS should be the permanent first bench player,  in a true utility role.   Use him in whatever role needs support.   Has an AFL body shape now which helps.

Why can't these blokes come ready to play from the start. 
They must  like playing catch up football.

In the Bolton era, this was considered a cardinal sin, a sign that the coach just cannot get the players up for the game. In the Teague era, it's just magically photoshopped out of the picture. Lol.

JSOS should be the permanent first bench player,  in a true utility role.   Use him in whatever role needs support.   Has an AFL body shape now which helps.

I think the best thing we can do for SoJ is make him a horse for coarses type player, Freo's midfield isn't overly quick so it suited SoJ well. It won't be the case for every opposition team, so picking him when he has a suitable opponent or role helps.

In the Bolton era, this was considered a cardinal sin, a sign that the coach just cannot get the players up for the game. In the Teague era, it's just magically photoshopped out of the picture. Lol.

On the surface it would seem hypocritical, but if you dig a little deeper you find that the huge difference, Pauly, is that we come back and come back strong under Teague (yes, very early days). That didn't happen with your son - although he talked about resilience, we showed precious little... only minimizing damage.

I think you'll find that Teague is also critical of the slow starts. And if this trend is not eradicated it'll spell trouble. So let's give the lad, at we did BB, more of a chance to show how he tackles this issue.

On the surface it would seem hypocritical, but if you dig a little deeper you find that the huge difference, Pauly, is that we come back and come back strong under Teague (yes, very early days). That didn't happen with your son - although he talked about resilience, we showed precious little... only minimizing damage.

I think you'll find that Teague is also critical of the slow starts. And if this trend is not eradicated it'll spell trouble. So let's give the lad, at we did BB, more of a chance to show how he tackles this issue.

Sorry Baggers, you are being selective in memory.

We've been conceding starts all season, and if we'd kicked straighter we probably would have had a couple more comeback wins like that this season! Instead we had a bagful of narrow honorable losses!

Come backs don't only happen when you win!

First game I've been to for a few years. 5 minutes into the 2nd quarter I thought we were looking at an 80 point loss. Half way through the last I thought here we go again giving away 5 goal headstarts to go down by a kick or two AGAIN. If every player had the heart of Kreuzer I think we'd be almost unbeatable. I lose count of the times he puts in 2nd and 3rd efforts

Our next step will be to start burying some sides, I hope its next week.  These nail biting finishes need some relief. Eradicating the slow start would go a long way allievating that.

Having said that I can't understand the sour grapes because, at the end of the day, Teague has two from three and that's what matters. Teague is beginning to prove how bad a match day coach BB was and its becomming clear that he wouldn't take advice. Surely Teague would've been asking him to make the type of match day changes that are proving so successful now.

First game I've been to for a few years. 5 minutes into the 2nd quarter I thought we were looking at an 80 point loss. Half way through the last I thought here we go again giving away 5 goal headstarts to go down by a kick or two AGAIN. If every player had the heart of Kreuzer I think we'd be almost unbeatable. I lose count of the times he puts in 2nd and 3rd efforts

Its happening.

I watched Matt Kennedy put pressure on 4 blokes in a row, who were simply handballing around him at half back yesterday.  He isnt lightening, and he didnt give up even though he had no hope of catching any of them until they kicked it a bit longer down the line.

We are starting to hunt in packs again which is a good thing.



Regarding our slow starts, its becoming clearer what is happening to me.  We are setting up to win the game on our terms initially.  When that isn't working, in game we are making the appropriate changes to switch to negate the opposition and counter punch instead.


What that says about our opposition analysis you can work out for yourself.

I actually think it may be the by product of having youngsters.  They are having to think their way through how to play on your opponent.  The main difference between an experience player and an inexperienced player is simply how quickly they can adjust to playing on a different opponent, and how automatic it is to be able to transition from one game style to another.  Not all players play the same way.  Some can handball on both hands.  Some are better at agility.  Some are able to accelerate quickly.  Some are bigger bodied.  Some are smaller bodied and nimble.  Some can kick on both sides.  Some can sell candy, but universally speaking, the one thing that is true, is that a newbie has seen this match up once or twice.   An experienced player might only be seeing a newbie for the first or second time, but they quickly work out how to negate this player because they have played on someone similar in the past and already have a feel for what someone is going to do.  The newbies are not able to as easily, which means we might have to shuffle them around the ground a little until they get a favourable match up rather than be able to win a match up using experience.


Finally, the old Defenders make good coaches role seems to come back to the forefront.  Guys like Teague forge a playing career on the ability to read the play.  This is the attribute that seems most important to make a good senior coach.  Teague was never that good a footballer, but I think he was the type that made the most of his attributes.

The game was won on heart, effort, will, desperation and luck. Once again, behind on the scoreboard most of the night, and just got in our noses in front when the final siren sounds, topped off by some vintage Murphy Magic™. The best thing for me was the reaction from the players when they won - their elation was palpable, and I was so happy for them, having put in plenty of work under Bolts and Teague. And to do it without the stars was a bonus.

But let's face it, the game was mostly devoid of skill, and system or method seemed to disappear in large parts. This "hack it forward at all costs" idea, which seemed to increase as the game wore on, is not a platform for future success. We won't be troubling too many teams with that.

The pretty stuff can come later, PaulP - the talent is there, for me it has always been a case of whether or not this group have enough intestinal fortitude to stand up when the going gets tough and play as a team.  The last three games have been full of it, and to win this one without Crippa leading from the front was even more pleasing.

With even an ounce more poise and luck, we would have wins over Gold Coast, Hawthorn, Bulldogs, Saints, Collingwood and be fighting for the 8.

Mind you, if we'd won those games mentioned above, BB would still be coach and maybe this new-found freedom and 'fun-to-watch' footy would still be hidden in the cupboard....?

The pretty stuff can come later, PaulP - the talent is there, for me it has always been a case of whether or not this group have enough intestinal fortitude to stand up when the going gets tough and play as a team.  The last three games have been full of it, and to win this one without Crippa leading from the front was even more pleasing.

With even an ounce more poise and luck, we would have wins over Gold Coast, Hawthorn, Bulldogs, Saints, Collingwood and be fighting for the 8.

Mind you, if we'd won those games mentioned above, BB would still be coach and maybe this new-found freedom and 'fun-to-watch' footy would still be hidden in the cupboard....?

It's not about pretty or ugly. It's about being in control of proceedings. We won't be winning anything of note giving up big margins and trying to scramble playing desperado football in the dying minutes / seconds.

The good teams play tough accountable football, structured and in control. Think of any team that has won the flag this century. The Malthouse teams, the Clarkson teams, WC last year. That's what Bolton was aiming for IMO.

This isn't a weekend pottery course for depressed middle aged women of means. All this talk of freedom and players being able to express themselves - can you imagine Malthouse or Clarkson saying something like that ?

We have had some slow starts through the year...only about 3 or 4 really significant ones under Bolton and in two of those we copped a thrashing.
It's not his problem any more though, it's Teague's now.

In the three games since he's taken over we've been beaten in the first quarter 13-7 to 2-7
After quarter time we're in front 35.28 to 22-24

It's even worse when you consider that in the Brisbane and Bulldogs game they went further ahead early in the second quarter before we got going.

So there's something to work on. ;)

Late again but a massive win and huge effort by all the players....firstly to peg that lead back in the conditions and then steady when it was on the line. Silvagni was desperately unlucky to be dropped for the Dogs game and went back to the VFL and earned his spot back...and played a great second half yesterday on Fyfe. Murphy answered the call and stepped up when it was needed. Like a few others on here, impressed with Kennedy's game. He's been ordinary at best since coming from GWS but he's exactly the type of bloke we need to stand up.

Kreuzer is a magnificent player and is still a key to our success. If his body hadn't let him down so many times he would be one of the great modern ruckmen....and big wraps on Levi for his form since coming back into the team. I still think he's the best option as a second ruck and can now drift between forward and back depending on who's available.

Not sure where Cripps and Harry are at but geez it'll be huge if they can get up for this week.....it would be them in for Charlie and probably Dow for mine.

Interesting to see if this theory holds up after such a gallant finish.
"How you finish the last game is how you start the next"

It's not about pretty or ugly. It's about being in control of proceedings. We won't be winning anything of note giving up big margins and trying to scramble playing desperado football in the dying minutes / seconds.

The good teams play tough accountable football, structured and in control. Think of any team that has won the flag this century. The Malthouse teams, the Clarkson teams, WC last year. That's what Bolton was aiming for IMO.

This isn't a weekend pottery course for depressed middle aged women of means. All this talk of freedom and players being able to express themselves - can you imagine Malthouse or Clarkson saying something like that ?

The last 3 flags have been won by coaches who seem far more measured and inclusive in their responses than Malthouse or Clarkson.  I think the days of the wall-punching, finger-pointing 'angry ant' type of coach are over.  The Millennials who are pulling on AFL jumpers now won't put up with that sort of crap.

The Malthouse approach was cooked by the time he got to us, and even Clarkson's reign was underpinned by the Dawks ability to recruit ready-made stars on an annual basis.  His Hawks are not looking so accountable and structured now.

The last 3 flags have been won by coaches who seem far more measured and inclusive in their responses than Malthouse or Clarkson.  I think the days of the wall-punching, finger-pointing 'angry ant' type of coach are over.  The Millennials who are pulling on AFL jumpers now won't put up with that sort of crap.

The Malthouse approach was cooked by the time he got to us, and even Clarkson's reign was underpinned by the Dawks ability to recruit ready-made stars on an annual basis.  His Hawks are not looking so accountable and structured now.

I think we might not be talking about the same thing. I'm not talking about tearing strips off players. I'm talking about getting the right balance between order and chaos, between a controlled, structured and method driven style of play, and fast / instinctive styles. I'm saying the former is what tends to get you the prize. Watch Rhys Shaw's presser from this weekend - says it loud and clear "I'm a defensive first coach."

I haven't seen Clarkson punch a wall (at least on TV) since 2012. And Malthouse was in a GF 12 months before he came to us, after a sensational H/A season where the Pies had the best % of any team since 2000, including now.

And just on the 2019 Hawks. Their best is easily top 4 quality IMO. They just have too many lapses.

Agreed PP...went within a whisker of the Eagles on the weekend...if they'd pinched that we'd probably be talking differently.

I think we might not be talking about the same thing. I'm not talking about tearing strips off players. I'm talking about getting the right balance between order and chaos, between a controlled, structured and method driven style of play, and fast / instinctive styles. I'm saying the former is what tends to get you the prize. Watch Rhys Shaw's presser from this weekend - says it loud and clear "I'm a defensive first coach."

I haven't seen Clarkson punch a wall (at least on TV) since 2012. And Malthouse was in a GF 12 months before he came to us, after a sensational H/A season where the Pies had the best % of any team since 2000, including now.

Clarkson has been punching things since 1987.   And no way are Hawthorn top 4 - they have almost no forward line.

Order vs Chaos boils down to a variety of factors, probably the most important one of which is experience - an element in which we are severely lacking and no coach can teach. Unfortunately, there is only one way to get experience, and that is to get experience.  In two years' time, we will have the advantage of a group of early 20s with 50-100 games under their belt and I think structure will be far more apparent then.  Clarkson 2013-15 and Malthouse 2010-11 had the advantage of very experienced teams, which almost by definition brings with it an atmosphere of control and structure.

Once Malthouse came to CFC, his style was found wanting (and several of our players started looking for the door).  And Clarkson is now finding out the same thing.  There is not a coach on the planet who is going to make our list look like a seasoned bunch of professionals overnight.  It will take time. 

But let's face it, the game was mostly devoid of skill, and system or method seemed to disappear in large parts. This "hack it forward at all costs" idea, which seemed to increase as the game wore on, is not a platform for future success. We won't be troubling too many teams with that.

I see it completely the other way around. For so long our guys have wanted it to be soft and pretty and our outside precision would win the game. The other teams put a bit of pressure on us and our skills drop off and we get beaten.

This win felt different. We just wanted it more than the opposition got there in the end.

If we'd been cleaner by foot we would have won by more but under the high pressure of that game that was unlikely to happen.

Our next step will be to start burying some sides, I hope its next week.  These nail biting finishes need some relief. Eradicating the slow start would go a long way allievating that.

Having said that I can't understand the sour grapes because, at the end of the day, Teague has two from three and that's what matters. Teague is beginning to prove how bad a match day coach BB was and its becomming clear that he wouldn't take advice. Surely Teague would've been asking him to make the type of match day changes that are proving so successful now.

It's hard to argue. Putting Ed onto Fyfe didn't work so he swung SOS onto him and Jack played a cracker.

Setterfield into the back pocket was effective.

Walsh in the forward flank / pocket was also successful (though he missed 2 gettable goals).

Kennedy in the Josh Caddy role was a masterstroke - 2 vital goals.

None of these type of moves was a hallmark of the Bolton era.

But let's face it, the game was mostly devoid of skill, and system or method seemed to disappear in large parts. This "hack it forward at all costs" idea, which seemed to increase as the game wore on, is not a platform for future success. We won't be troubling too many teams with that.

I don't agree with that, because I don't see skill just as a subset confined to ball use.

The physicality and pressure we brought yesterday, Levi shoving opponents around, Ed stripping the ball off the opposition, SoJ's 1%ers, the gut running, the clock running, they are all skills. Daisy seizing the moment to push forward to be in the goal square, that's a learned skill. SPS making himself a pest inside F50, that's a knowledge based skill! The Simmo and SoJ set shots, those little moments!

I've got to give credit to Teague or whoever took the pressure off the players to allow them to perform in this way! Those skills were developed over a long period, that's all the coaches including Bolton, but they couldn't execute them in the recent past!

Notice Dow, a very similar error to Charlie just a couple of weeks back, but you have to be in the right place doing the right things to get the footy, another week or two might see Dow with a bagful based on a learned skill that isn't counted by disposal efficiency!

We saw glimpses of the other skills as well, O'Brien in particular hit some nice targets, as did Plowman to my surprise despite a couple of clangers. Fisher and Setterfield were both very good by hand in traffic. sMurph did what sMurph can do! I realise the slowness of the Freo midfield worked in our favor.

None of these type of moves was a hallmark of the Bolton era.

I think that's too simplistic, you're commenting on some players who are returning from injury and weren't available just a few weeks back, and may well be dropped when Cripps and McKay return!

Clarkson has been punching things since 1987.   And no way are Hawthorn top 4 - they have almost no forward line.

Order vs Chaos boils down to a variety of factors, probably the most important one of which is experience - an element in which we are severely lacking and no coach can teach. Unfortunately, there is only one way to get experience, and that is to get experience.  In two years' time, we will have the advantage of a group of early 20s with 50-100 games under their belt and I think structure will be far more apparent then.  Clarkson 2013-15 and Malthouse 2010-11 had the advantage of very experienced teams, which almost by definition brings with it an atmosphere of control and structure.

Once Malthouse came to CFC, his style was found wanting (and several of our players started looking for the door).  And Clarkson is now finding out the same thing.  There is not a coach on the planet who is going to make our list look like a seasoned bunch of professionals overnight.  It will take time.

I didn't say the Hawks are top 4 - I said their best is easily top 4 material. I also said they have too many lapses and inconsistencies to actually be a top 4 team.

I don't exactly know why Malthouse failed at Carlton, but I seriously doubt it was because "his style was found wanting."

You can make an argument for different teaching methods. As you infer, Teague is starting off by freeing up the players, and then the style hopefully becomes more disciplined and structured as the players mature and gain experience. Or you can try to teach good habits from the start like Bolton did, which means short term pain but longer term benefits, since you don't have to teach twice or hope for an evolution that may never occur.

One reason why Ratten only won 1 final is because run and stun is not really suited to finals footy. I know he got very close and i know some bad luck was also involved. My concern is that Teague may be Ratten MKII. Given where we've been, folks may well take that, but it's not where we want to be, and it won't save Teague's bacon when the wheels start to wobble, assuming of course he gets appointed.

Hawks dont have a great list but Clarkson extracts everything he has from what is there, I dont see them bottoming out either, its not their style under Clarko and Wright.
They will continue to wheel and deal at the trade table and appeal to established players to come to the family club which has been their image.
IMO Clarkson will take the GWS job if offered but will continue at Hawthorn if that doesnt happen.

Dear Marc

er, um, yeah - I know we’ve had our differences, and hope I wasn’t outta line when I called you a soft f&$@ who was also a selfish pr!ck and needed to retire immediately.
What I was trying to say was i’m actually one of your biggest fans. Have been from day one.
So ... we’re good, yeah? Me and you?
Ok, great. Call me.

Cheers

There'd be about 5-6 sides saying "thankyou Carlton" last night. Adelaide not being one of them. Port, Essendon, North, Sydney, Dogs and even the Saints are all only one game out of the 8 now instead of 2 because of us.

I don't agree with that, because I don't see skill just as a subset confined to ball use.

The physicality and pressure we brought yesterday, Levi shoving opponents around, Ed stripping the ball off the opposition, SoJ's 1%ers, the gut running, the clock running, they are all skills. Daisy seizing the moment to push forward to be in the goal square, that's a learned skill. SPS making himself a pest inside F50, that's a knowledge based skill! The Simmo and SoJ set shots, those little moments!

I've got to give credit to Teague or whoever took the pressure off the players to allow them to perform in this way! Those skills were developed over a long period, that's all the coaches including Bolton, but they couldn't execute them in the recent past!

Notice Dow, a very similar error to Charlie just a couple of weeks back, but you have to be in the right place doing the right things to get the footy, another week or two might see Dow with a bagful based on a learned skill that isn't counted by disposal efficiency!

We saw glimpses of the other skills as well, O'Brien in particular hit some nice targets, as did Plowman to my surprise despite a couple of clangers. Fisher and Setterfield were both very good by hand in traffic. sMurph did what sMurph can do! I realise the slowness of the Freo midfield worked in our favor.

I distinguish between effort/attitude/physicality on the one hand, and cleanliness of disposal, avoiding clangers etc on the other, and the latter is what I mean by skills.

I distinguish between effort/attitude/physicality on the one hand, and cleanliness of disposal, avoiding clangers etc on the other, and the latter is what I mean by skills.

I understand, but I also see effort, attitude and physicality as things that can be learned.

For example, in years gone by Levi would have stood watching yesterday's play unfold around him!

Let's think of it this way, when it all comes together things are only going to get better!

I understand, but I also see effort, attitude and physicality as things that can be learned.

For example, in years gone by Levi would have stood watching yesterday's play unfold around him!

Let's think of it this way, when it all comes together things are only going to get better!

Yes, I agree to a degree, but to give an extreme example, when I saw Mumford break Murphy's ribs, I didn't think "wow, great skills." We're arguing semantics, but I'm sure you get my drift.

Yes, I agree to a degree, but to give an extreme example, when I saw Mumford break Murphy's ribs, I didn't think "wow, great skills." We're arguing semantics, but I'm sure you get my drift.

That's also valid to my point, Mumford acted, he joined in the fray, maybe he does so naturally.

But what's that famous line?

"Do Something!"

That's also valid to my point, Mumford acted, he joined in the fray, maybe he does so naturally.

But what's that famous line?

"Do Something!"

I'm not really a fan of simple cliches, unless you have a clear understanding of the limits that are implied and normal behavior, 'do something" could mean anything. It's not absolute.

There'd be about 5-6 sides saying "thankyou Carlton" last night. Adelaide not being one of them. Port, Essendon, North, Sydney, Dogs and even the Saints are all only one game out of the 8 now instead of 2 because of us.

That was the best part about yesterday.

When Dow made that mistake in the final quarter, I checked the live ladder and noticed that Freo winning meant they drew level on points with Adelaide, so either we were going to jump up the ladder, or they were going to have teams hot on their tale.

I am less fussy about us rising.  I doubt anyone but Gold Coast are destined to get pick 1 with their injury list.  We will give Adelaide a top 4 pick irrespective of what happens from here bar a miracle where it becomes a top 6 pick.  We need Adelaide to free fall more than us to rise.  If they lose a couple, they can drop 4 spots on the ladder, and it starts to look like a top 10 draft pick for us if they miss finals.  That is where this trade is going to be won and lost.

That was the best part about yesterday.

When Dow made that mistake in the final quarter, I checked the live ladder and noticed that Freo winning meant they drew level on points with Adelaide, so either we were going to jump up the ladder, or they were going to have teams hot on their tale.

I am less fussy about us rising.  I doubt anyone but Gold Coast are destined to get pick 1 with their injury list.  We will give Adelaide a top 4 pick irrespective of what happens from here bar a miracle where it becomes a top 6 pick.  We need Adelaide to free fall more than us to rise.  If they lose a couple, they can drop 4 spots on the ladder, and it starts to look like a top 10 draft pick for us if they miss finals.  That is where this trade is going to be won and lost.

eggsackery Thry.  In reality, it doesn't matter what Adelaide gets.  It means absolutely zero to us, as it's not our pick.  Our pick is determined where Adelaide finish.  That is all that matters to us.

Dear Marc

er, um, yeah - I know we’ve had our differences, and hope I wasn’t outta line when I called you a soft f&$@ who was also a selfish pr!ck and needed to retire immediately.
What I was trying to say was i’m actually one of your biggest fans. Have been from day one.
So ... we’re good, yeah? Me and you?
Ok, great. Call me.

Cheers

????
Classic, love it.

What I love about this win:
- Ed led
- Kennedy played like he's top 22
- Setters 'gets it'
- SOJ can tag n scrag and still show class
- Marchy is fit and firing on all 4
- Defense A
- Daisy is... well ... fresh. His passion is infectious
- Our smalls can get the job done (usual errors of youth aside) for 4q
- fwd pressure improving
- Levi is officially a Legend
- we're not riding the wave of 1 man. We have wave riding plan B
- Murphy sublime skills when it mattered
- We know how to win and get the most joy out of it. Would love to have been on the flight home!

That said, we have lots to work on. To win in the West under great adversity is a credit to all involved ????

Go young Blues

eggsackery Thry.  In reality, it doesn't matter what Adelaide gets.  It means absolutely zero to us, as it's not our pick.  Our pick is determined where Adelaide finish.  That is all that matters to us.

Adds a nice piece of spice to the game at the G in 4 weeks. A win could push us up one place and Crows down one. Bring it on!!!

I didn't say the Hawks are top 4 - I said their best is easily top 4 material. I also said they have too many lapses and inconsistencies to actually be a top 4 team.

I don't exactly know why Malthouse failed at Carlton, but I seriously doubt it was because "his style was found wanting."

You can make an argument for different teaching methods. As you infer, Teague is starting off by freeing up the players, and then the style hopefully becomes more disciplined and structured as the players mature and gain experience. Or you can try to teach good habits from the start like Bolton did, which means short term pain but longer term benefits, since you don't have to teach twice or hope for an evolution that may never occur.

One reason why Ratten only won 1 final is because run and stun is not really suited to finals footy. I know he got very close and i know some bad luck was also involved. My concern is that Teague may be Ratten MKII. Given where we've been, folks may well take that, but it's not where we want to be, and it won't save Teague's bacon when the wheels start to wobble, assuming of course he gets appointed.

I don't agree that Hawthorn's best is top 4 material any more. Carrying too many guys over the hill or not good enough and a range of trades which was never going to work.

With the run they've got over the next 6 rounds they could be in the bottom 2 in a month.

Coll / Freo / Gee / Bris / Norf / GWS.

I don't agree that Hawthorn's best is top 4 material any more. Carrying too many guys over the hill or not good enough and a range of trades which was never going to work.

With the run they've got over the next 6 rounds they could be in the bottom 2 in a month.

Coll / Freo / Gee / Bris / Norf / GWS.

I'm more than happy for you to disagree. They won't string their best together for 4 quarters any more, so it's probably a moot point.

End of the day, we won and it was bloody fantastic to watch, as has the past 3 games!

I was and am a huge BB fan but there was not much joy watching games last year or this year. 

I’ve always felt, get some wins and you never know what happens, confidence, however it comes, is massive.

Lose time and again and well we saw that, I wasn’t going to go to games anymore because it was immensely unenjoyable to do so.

I'm more than happy for you to disagree. They won't string their best together for 4 quarters any more, so it's probably a moot point.

If they do flick the rebuild switch then you'd think that Roughead, Burgoyne, Puopolo, Smith, Henderson, Birchall, Mohr, etc. will be gone next year.

That still leaves Frawley who will be 32 next year and McEvoy & Stratton 31.

I don't think that they realise the size of the hole they have dug for themselves.

The uber-rebuild could be coming their way whether they like it or not - without any players with trade currency to do it properly.

I don't agree that Hawthorn's best is top 4 material any more. Carrying too many guys over the hill or not good enough and a range of trades which was never going to work.

With the run they've got over the next 6 rounds they could be in the bottom 2 in a month.

Coll / Freo / Gee / Bris / Norf / GWS.

That's one $hit run.

I omitted to mention this on my earlier post but I thought that Samo was absolutely brilliant yesterday.  His skills, decision making and poise really set us up for the win.

That's one $hit run.

They have to play the Eagles again too. Champion data last week ranked their run home the hardest, Geelong the easiest.

Where's flyboy ? He was at the game and I was looking forward to reading his report.

I omitted to mention this on my earlier post but I thought that Samo was absolutely brilliant yesterday.  His skills, decision making and poise really set us up for the win.

Totally agree, very smart footballer.

They have to play the Eagles again too. Champion data last week ranked their run home the hardest, Geelong the easiest.

We have to get above them on the ladder.
And hopefully Melbourne do too. A bottom 2 finish would be a reality check to the extreme arrogance of their entire setup - and would destroy their "destination club" status.

eggsackery Thry.  In reality, it doesn't matter what Adelaide gets.  It means absolutely zero to us, as it's not our pick.  Our pick is determined where Adelaide finish.  That is all that matters to us.

That's not really what matters to us at all.

What does matter is how good a player Liam Stocker turns out to be.

At this stage he is starting to show some good signs.

That's not really what matters to us at all.

What does matter is how good a player Liam Stocker turns out to be.

At this stage he is starting to show some good signs.

Its not an either scenario.

The better draft pick we get off Adelaide, the better the deal becomes for us.

I'm not worried about Liam.  His ability makes the trade a worthwhile exercise.  The problem starts when you give away a top 5 draft pick, and then that draft yields a top player.  It will result in comparisons being drawn between Stocker and that player for the rest of their careers.

Richmond did the same with Tambling.  They said they had enough talls, so they skipped Lance Franklin, and took Tambling.  The pressure was on him to become a superstar of the game afterwards, and he never really lived up to it.

Either way, I am comfortable with the trade.  I just will be more comfortable as the draft pick becomes closer to pick 5 instead of pick 1.  Likewise, if we get a top 10 pick back instead of a top 15, that is also a better outcome.

Its not an either scenario.

The better draft pick we get off Adelaide, the better the deal becomes for us.

I'm not worried about Liam.  His ability makes the trade a worthwhile exercise.  The problem starts when you give away a top 5 draft pick, and then that draft yields a top player. It will result in comparisons being drawn between Stocker and that player for the rest of their careers.

Richmond did the same with Tambling.  They said they had enough talls, so they skipped Lance Franklin, and took Tambling.  The pressure was on him to become a superstar of the game afterwards, and he never really lived up to it.

Either way, I am comfortable with the trade.  I just will be more comfortable as the draft pick becomes closer to pick 5 instead of pick 1.  Likewise, if we get a top 10 pick back instead of a top 15, that is also a better outcome.

There is no problem it's flawed thinking. History proves drafting is a coin toss, the minute Stocker played and looked OK we'd already won a 50/50.

Fans talk about low draft picks like they are certainty, when in reality so few picks succeed it's ludicrous not to swap them for a guaranteed player. We swapped a future pick for a player and won, that already puts us well ahead of the curve, no matter what happens in the future!

Retrospectively claiming some later pick was better is not relevant, it's like backing a champion racehorse the day it eventually loses after you've already had a collect on the same horse, or eventually backing a winner after you've lost on the same horse a bunch of times. Nothing that occurs in the future diminishes or enhances your previous wins or loses!

There is no problem it's flawed thinking. History proves drafting is a coin toss, the minute Stocker played and looked OK we'd already won a 50/50.

Fans talk about low draft picks like they are certainty, when in reality so few picks succeed it's ludicrous not to swap them for a guaranteed player. We swapped a future pick for a player and won, that already puts us well ahead of the curve, no matter what happens in the future!

Retrospectively claiming some later pick was better is not relevant, it's like backing a champion racehorse the day it eventually loses after you've already had a collect on the same horse, or eventually backing a winner after you've lost on the same horse a bunch of times. Nothing that occurs in the future diminishes or enhances your previous wins or loses!

Agree. We made our call on Stocker. Looks like a good one. Great - move on, don't look back - you can't change anything now. If we had kept the pick we may have bombed out when we used it anyway.

I like Liam Stocker and he will be a good player but the two leading candidates for pick 1 are very good players who are match winners. Dont want to be handing the Crows a chief for a good Indian in return.

I like Liam Stocker and he will be a good player but the two leading candidates for pick 1 are very good players who are match winners. Dont want to be handing the Crows a chief for a good Indian in return.

We need to keep winning then?

There is no problem it's flawed thinking. History proves drafting is a coin toss, the minute Stocker played and looked OK we'd already won a 50/50.

Fans talk about low draft picks like they are certainty, when in reality so few picks succeed it's ludicrous not to swap them for a guaranteed player. We swapped a future pick for a player and won, that already puts us well ahead of the curve, no matter what happens in the future!

Retrospectively claiming some later pick was better is not relevant, it's like backing a champion racehorse the day it eventually loses after you've already had a collect on the same horse, or eventually backing a winner after you've lost on the same horse a bunch of times. Nothing that occurs in the future diminishes or enhances your previous wins or loses!

Bulldust.

We have people complaining about Chris Yarran vs Rich vs Ziebell, vs Sidebottom in one draft.

We even had people complaining about the Boekhorst trade, even though we turned pick 7 (Paul ahern) into Boekhorst, the other dud midfielder from GWS, and Jaksch.

People always find a reason to complain.  Stocker is one element of the equation that has paid off.

If we get a top 10 pick from Adelaide, then we get another chance to get a win out of it, and Stocker is simply a bonus.

If we give away picks 1-3, and we see anything like Sam Walsh, Connor Rozee, the King Twins, or anything of that nature in the next draft people will quickly forget about Stocker.

Bulldust.

We have people complaining about Chris Yarran vs Rich vs Ziebell, vs Sidebottom in one draft.

We even had people complaining about the Boekhorst trade, even though we turned pick 7 (Paul ahern) into Boekhorst, the other dud midfielder from GWS, and Jaksch.

People always find a reason to complain.  Stocker is one element of the equation that has paid off.

If we get a top 10 pick from Adelaide, then we get another chance to get a win out of it, and Stocker is simply a bonus.

If we give away picks 1-3, and we see anything like Sam Walsh, Connor Rozee, the King Twins, or anything of that nature in the next draft people will quickly forget about Stocker.

What people think is irrelevant, they are all experts in retrospect!

Hindsight Heroes!

Agree. We made our call on Stocker. Looks like a good one. Great - move on, don't look back - you can't change anything now. If we had kept the pick we may have bombed out when we used it anyway.

Yes, we won the pick swap when Stocker showed that he can play at AFL level ... and with a bit of attitude as well.  Whatever happens with the two first round picks next draft will be more down to good luck and our pick 12 may provide a better player than the Crows’ pick 10  :)

And just on the 2019 Hawks. Their best is easily top 4 quality IMO. They just have too many lapses.

Our best is easily top 4 quality....so what?

It's hard to argue. Putting Ed onto Fyfe didn't work so he swung SOS onto him and Jack played a cracker.

Setterfield into the back pocket was effective.

Walsh in the forward flank / pocket was also successful (though he missed 2 gettable goals).

Kennedy in the Josh Caddy role was a masterstroke - 2 vital goals.

None of these type of moves was a hallmark of the Bolton era.

But far from rocket science. Kennedy debuted and kicked three playing such a role...

The club website has footage of Murphy’s match-winning goal with commentary from different broadcasters.  Their reactions are interesting but the footage is very informative.

Kreuzer brings the ball down from a boundary throw in just outside our 50.  Murphy gets a foot to the ball and sends it to Gibbons.  Gibbons kicks the ball off the ground to Casboult who shrugs off tacklers and gets a handball to Fisher.  Fisher doesn’t take possession but hits the ball to Murphy who sells the dummy and nails the shot at goal.  Casboult, Gibbons and Fisher all played their part but Murphy, who covered 40m and read the play to perfection, was outstanding.

That play epitomises what makes Murphy one of the best players to pull on the navy blue in the 21st century.

Where's flyboy ? He was at the game and I was looking forward to reading his report.

Yes well, I left with 7 minutes to go  :-[ :-[ :-[

We decided it was best to beat the rabid Freo hordes given train is the only way in and the only way out.

Summation - slippery day given the earlier rain and bits of rain during the game (very little really),

Freo smashed us in Q1 then they fell asleep essentially.

The skill level - from both sides was simply disgraceful - missing targets from 20m away (under no pressure) consistently.

Hosptal hand passes, etc etc.

Fyfe was dynamite in Q1 and to a lesser extent Q2. Walters MIA (not sure if anyone from CFC can take  credit for his performance)

Great job by SOJ.

Kreuzer was fantastic. Ditto Levi, Marchy and Jones.

Dow's kicking still extremely embarrassing. Laughable.

Kennedy and Setterfield did their bit.

SPS - good in patches. Still chooses....

Murph - didn't much notice him - but there was plenty of rugby scrum stuff all day....

Ed? Kept us in it.

McGovern - that miss early in the last shocking (where he played on on his left after marking 20m out).

All in all - they lost it more than we won it. Still, as they say. you can only beat the opposition on the day.

Final word - big confidence booster noting no Crippa, Big H, Charlie....

Thanks flyboy. That's the impression I got from watching highlights and seeing bit of the match live. Good effort, but more good luck that we were ahead when the final siren went, the opposite of the bad luck we had earlier in the year.

Yes but they kept at it, that’s what is the most pleasing thing. They didn’t go into their shells and start kicking backwards and over complicating it - move the ball forward and keep it there!

Especially as yet again we’ve forgotten to start playing until we’re 5 goals down!

Wins bring confidence, however they come about!

I noticed a lot of slipping over by our guys, wrong shoes or what?

Yes but they kept at it, that’s what is the most pleasing thing. They didn’t go into their shells and start kicking backwards and over complicating it - move the ball forward and keep it there!

Especially as yet again we’ve forgotten to start playing until we’re 5 goals down!

Wins bring confidence, however they come about!

I noticed a lot of slipping over by our guys, wrong shoes or what?

That's the important thing - wins build confidence and belief and with those things will come better skills execution and tighter control over games. Let's not let old loyalties and axes to grind detract from our team's efforts  too much. Hopefully we can knock over the Dees this week.

I certainly liked how, given the conditions, they adopted a get the ball forward at all costs approach - and they stopped chipping it around in the back line! (or at leasyt if they did they got on with it!)

Thanks flyboy. That's the impression I got from watching highlights and seeing bit of the match live. Good effort, but more good luck that we were ahead when the final siren went, the opposite of the bad luck we had earlier in the year.

Not luck at all.

Earlier in the year we cr@pped ourselves when we hit the front or folded under fair-dinkum pressure.

You make your own luck and when you've an aggressive attitude and application to offensive/defensive play, it can and does throw the opposition off to a degree - it clearly rattled the D1ckers. And that's what I saw after qtr time... our good moves of SOJ onto Fyffe and Ed hunting his own aggott and an aggressive/positive mind-set combined to create 'good luck'. Also results in more mistakes but if you anticipate these and suck it up, better skills will be created.

That's the important thing - wins build confidence and belief and with those things will come better skills execution and tighter control over games. Let's not let old loyalties and axes to grind detract from our team's efforts  too much. Hopefully we can knock over the Dees this week.

Here here. Watched the game last night and it was scrappy and not a lot of great skill. Conditions probably had some things to do with it, but also they shut down Freo's run and locked the ball in our forward line in the second quarter which gave us chances to score, which we did. As commentators said we have done a good job of blocking all their exists which allowed us to lock the ball in our forward line. One case I can remember is I think Walters had the ball on the wing and just stood there for a few seconds because there was no-one free to kick to as everyone was covered. Everyone had moved back to block all their exits.

Not luck at all.

Earlier in the year we cr@pped ourselves when we hit the front or folded under fair-dinkum pressure.

You make your own luck and when you've an aggressive attitude and application to offensive/defensive play, it can and does throw the opposition off to a degree - it clearly rattled the D1ckers. And that's what I saw after qtr time... our good moves of SOJ onto Fyffe and Ed hunting his own aggott and an aggressive/positive mind-set combined to create 'good luck'. Also results in more mistakes but if you anticipate these and suck it up, better skills will be created.

No question that fast ball movement does not llow the defenders to get into their structures - again, not rocket science but some coaches seemingly can't work that simple one out....

(and sure, there are times where slow ball movement - they used to call it tempo footy? - should be played too)

Not luck at all.

Earlier in the year we cr@pped ourselves when we hit the front or folded under fair-dinkum pressure.

You make your own luck and when you've an aggressive attitude and application to offensive/defensive play, it can and does throw the opposition off to a degree - it clearly rattled the D1ckers. And that's what I saw after qtr time... our good moves of SOJ onto Fyffe and Ed hunting his own aggott and an aggressive/positive mind-set combined to create 'good luck'. Also results in more mistakes but if you anticipate these and suck it up, better skills will be created.

I'll take the win any day and every day, but I think some assessments of that game are very sugar coated. Ordinary skills, behind on the scoreboard most of the night, not turning up to play, as flyboy says, Freo lost it rather than the other way around. If the siren sounds 40 seconds earlier, if Murphy kicks a behind or OOF etc., the post game emotion and analysis is very different. Teague says so himself. Watch his post game presser. Apart from the final result, that's not how good teams go about it. Yes, I know it's early days, and I hope Teague smashes it, but we won't be troubling too many sides with that display.

I'll take the win any day and every day, but I think some assessments of that game are very sugar coated. Ordinary skills, behind on the scoreboard most of the night, not turning up to play, as flyboy says, Freo lost it rather than the other way around. If the siren sounds 40 seconds earlier, if Murphy kicks a behind or OOF etc., the post game emotion and analysis is very different. Teague says so himself. Watch his post game presser. Apart from the final result, that's not how good teams go about it. Yes, I know it's early days, and I hope Teague smashes it, but we won't be troubling too many sides with that display.

We've troubled 3 from 3 so far.

We are clearly playing a more dedicated brand of footy.
We were noncompetitive with Bolton, far too often.

I don't think that there would be too many thinking we are a good side yet.  But the ability to kick and gouge our way to some affirming wins is a good start based on what we've had to suffer for years.

I'll take the win any day and every day, but I think some assessments of that game are very sugar coated. Ordinary skills, behind on the scoreboard most of the night, not turning up to play, as flyboy says, Freo lost it rather than the other way around. If the siren sounds 40 seconds earlier, if Murphy kicks a behind or OOF etc., the post game emotion and analysis is very different. Teague says so himself. Watch his post game presser. Apart from the final result, that's not how good teams go about it. Yes, I know it's early days, and I hope Teague smashes it, but we won't be troubling too many sides with that display.

Only beaten 2 top 8 sides. Our game was Richmondesque, reverted that way when we lost Charlie. It meant if we couldn't get the ball into the 50 cleanly we got it in any which way we could then fought like crap with pressure to keep it there. Richmond won a flag with that style. Didn't look pretty but they soon got on top of their opposition with the constant pressure allowing more free scoring late. We got 5 goals in the last qtr allowing us to win.

Only beaten 2 top 8 sides. Our game was Richmondesque, reverted that way when we lost Charlie. It meant if we couldn't get the ball into the 50 cleanly we got it in any which way we could then fought like crap with pressure to keep it there. Richmond won a flag with that style. Didn't look pretty but they soon got on top of their opposition with the constant pressure allowing more free scoring late. We got 5 goals in the last qtr allowing us to win.

The contrast between what Richmond do and what we did in the Freo game is like night and day. It's like comparing an original hard copy document with a copy of a copy of a copy - the latter gets to the point where you can't differentiate between a 2, a Z and a squiggle.

If you think the Freo game is an example of a sustainable game style that will win us a good number of games, I'm not sure what to say.

I don't think that there would be too many thinking we are a good side yet.  But the ability to kick and gouge our way to some affirming wins is a good start based on what we've had to suffer for years.

The way we were able to get Freo playing into our hands last weekend was enormous. How many times did Marchbank, Weitering, Jones, etc. intercept mark a long kick out of defense. It might not look pretty but it takes a lot of planning and commitment to get that happening.

Freo were sucking back all of their players into D50 - to get it out of there they were relying on some sort of relieving mark. The work our guys put in to deny them that for basically all of the last 3 quarters was impressive.

As much as the game looked like a scrap that was mostly because Freo went for the Ross Lyon 16 man defensive 50 tactic which cut off space.

The contrast between what Richmond do and what we did in the Freo game is like night and day. It's like comparing an original hard copy document with a copy of a copy of a copy - the latter gets to the point where you can't differentiate between a 2, a Z and a squiggle.

If you think the Freo game is an example of a sustainable game style that will win us a good number of games, I'm not sure what to say.

Why are you so sad all the time?

We've troubled 3 from 3 so far.

We are clearly playing a more dedicated brand of footy.
We were noncompetitive with Bolton, far too often.

We also troubled GC, Hawks and Pies earlier in the season, but you were very quick to write those off. And we smashed the Dogs in R5, and at that point, crickets.

Why are you so sad all the time?

I'm not sad at all. Not even remotely.

Despite being in the Top 8 Freo is a very low scoring side, that helped us enormously.

It's a big reason why I don't want Ross Lyon, his teams never put the opposition away!

Watching us under Teague, if our backline stays fit, I get the feeling we will have a break out winning margin before the season is over.

We've troubled sides in almost every game weve played this season.  There were only 3 abject failures.  Gws, north Melbourne and the bombers.

We've played at least one uncompetitive quarter in every match this season.

We've troubled sides in almost every game weve played this season.  There were only 3 abject failures.  Gws, north Melbourne and the bombers.

We've played at least one uncompetitive quarter in every match this season.

Our effort is unquestionable, abject failures aside.
I noticed the running stats on AFL.com. those figures are consistent with our boys doing the hard yards. Building confidence via some W's and the skill errors will decline. We're then on track imo.
Win a couple more of the close one's and it's a reasonable season at this stage of the rebuild. 

The contrast between what Richmond do and what we did in the Freo game is like night and day. It's like comparing an original hard copy document with a copy of a copy of a copy - the latter gets to the point where you can't differentiate between a 2, a Z and a squiggle.

If you think the Freo game is an example of a sustainable game style that will win us a good number of games, I'm not sure what to say.

I don't look at last week's win in terms of how they went about it.  I am far more interested in motivation and hunger.

Consider this - we had a young side playing on hostile foreign soil without our very best player and captain.  Our second-best forward is also in the grandstand, and we lose our best forward within 10 minutes of the opening bounce.

We go 5 goals down at quarter time and haven't scored one single major.  We have the next 17 inside 50's and get back in to the game with goals coming from all types of sources.  It goes goal for goal until we fall 15 points down with 6 minutes left on the playing clock.  Even David King said at this point it had been an unbelievable effort despite how the result was looking.

We kick the next three goals in 4 minutes and pinch the lead.  They snaffle a goal with a minute or so left on the clock and that would have previously knocked the stuffing out of us. But they fight, scrap and scramble and with a pinch of luck, get the job done.  We kicked 11 goals in 3/4 of footy in the wet without our two best forwards and superstar midfielder.

Despite all the naysaying about how badly Freo played, and how scrappy it was, I think this was one of the greatest victories this club has had in 10 years.  This was a victory over adversity, and a victory over self-doubt.

These type of victories can build a team much quicker than any 5 goal win which might look much prettier, but doesn't do as much for the psyche.

Calling it luck is a bit bah humbug if you ask me.
Sure we gave them a start and weren’t even on the field in Q1, but to come back from over 5 goals down, then again from 2 goals down in the last quarter shows a lot of desire, effort and hard work.
The boys weren’t pretty, but that was a pretty major achievement.

Our effort is unquestionable, abject failures aside.
I noticed the running stats on AFL.com. those figures are consistent with our boys doing the hard yards. Building confidence via some W's and the skill errors will decline. We're then on track imo.
Win a couple more of the close one's and it's a reasonable season at this stage of the rebuild.

It's not always the case that you get reward for doing the work(reward vs effort), sometimes you are better off doing the work so you can more easily identify a shortcut that brings reward with less effort!

It's not always the case that you get reward for doing the work(reward vs effort), sometimes you are better off doing the work so you can more easily identify a shortcut that brings reward with less effort!

We were not getting reward for effort under Bolton...and IMO, that is what ultimately sunk him.

I was posting at the time that nobody would remember the close losses where we were hard done by, just the 'L' that came with it.

With that thinking in mind...
We were down by 4 goals against Brisbane early in the 3rd. If we had a good comeback but ultimately fell short, it could've been heartbreaking.
Next week, we go down to the dogs by 3 points after giving them a good start. 2 weeks in a row is demoralising.
When we go goalless and 5 goals down in the 1st against Freo, you reckon we don't think...."Here we go again" and drop our bundle?

No, because that first week with Teague we managed to get a 'w' at the end of the day (basically from Cripps super human effort) and it completely changes our thinking, confidence and direction as a football team.

Now what if we didn't lose the gold coast game in the last minute....would our path be different?
Now what if we had 2 seconds more on the clock against the Hawks....would our path be different?
Now what if we didn't get screwed over by the umps against the pies.....would our path be different?
Should i continue??

Look, i'm happy we are winning.
I'm happy for Teague,
But mostly, i'm happy we finally got a bit of luck as ultimately that has been the big difference between the post Bolton and pre-teague eras. Luck!

I'll take the win any day and every day, but I think some assessments of that game are very sugar coated. Ordinary skills, behind on the scoreboard most of the night, not turning up to play, as flyboy says, Freo lost it rather than the other way around. If the siren sounds 40 seconds earlier, if Murphy kicks a behind or OOF etc., the post game emotion and analysis is very different. Teague says so himself. Watch his post game presser. Apart from the final result, that's not how good teams go about it. Yes, I know it's early days, and I hope Teague smashes it, but we won't be troubling too many sides with that display.

IF Ed had hunted his own aggott and SOJ went straight to Fyfe from the start we'd have won by 5 goals... good old IF. And IF we'd sacked BB last year we might be top 4 now...

In the pre match chats everyone at ground level was talking about the rain and the effect it would have on skills.

And you missed the point. You're talking 'luck' and I'm talking about the effects that committed aggression have on attitude... which makes 'luck'.

IF Ed had hunted his own aggott and SOJ went straight to Fyfe from the start we'd have won by 5 goals... good old IF. And IF we'd sacked BB last year we might be top 4 now...

In the pre match chats everyone at ground level was talking about the rain and the effect it would have on skills.

And you missed the point. You're talking 'luck' and I'm talking about the effects that committed aggression have on attitude... which makes 'luck'.

Nothing makes luck. That's the point. It's random.

I feel like there’s no way to please people sometimes.

We won a game interstate, top 8 team, down two of our best (Cripps and doch) two of our next best out (H and Charlie), it’s raining, crap conditions, vocal home crowd, umps free kicking to home bias in 1&2&3 quarters, missed some sitters, got in front miraculously, lost that lead with 1.30 minutes to go, kicked another all-team Goal to get back in front and held on to win!

Enjoy it, celebrate it, it was a bloody fantastic win!!!  Stop being Debby Downers about it and be proud of them and will them on this well, to show the same great attitude they showed for 3 quarters and hope they bring it for all 4!

I'm not sad at all. Not even remotely.

Seems like you've sucked on a bag of lemons before each post.

You seem to get very annoyed if anyone mentions Teague doing a good job in particular but the negativity in your earlier "copy of a copy of a copy" post takes it to the next level.

We're third in the league for scoring since Teague took over.

Can't everyone just be happy for a moment?

Nothing makes luck. That's the point. It's random.

Again, you have missed the point.

"I'm a great believer in luck. The harder I work the more of it I seem to have." (Attributed to Thomas Jefferson).

It's amazing how many losers think they were just unlucky.

Again, you have missed the point.

"I'm a great believer in luck. The harder I work the more of it I seem to have." (Attributed to Thomas Jefferson).

Bollocks. White, privileged male fantasy stuff.

Bollocks. White, privileged male fantasy stuff.

Wow, now that's a leap! :o Seems a dis-proportionally angry response.

I dare not tell you that that quote has also been used by working class people looking to get ahead, and a number of female athletes from humble beginnings!

Not to mention that Jefferson's early years were full of trauma and loss of family members but he was a voracious reader and ambitious and rose well above his 'station in life'. Admittedly he did inherit in his early 20s a sizeable block of land but was sensible with his loot and studied hard becoming brilliant at a great variety of things... hardly 'privileged' to begin with. To the astonishment of the people of the times he befriended Native American Indians and did much to aid them... on the 'perceived' negative and hypocritical side, he was a rampant rOOter and would shag any woman who took his fancy!

Wow, now that's a leap! :o Seems a dis-proportionally angry response.

I dare not tell you that that quote has also been used by working class people looking to get ahead, and a number of female athletes from humble beginnings!

Not to mention that Jefferson's early years were full of trauma and loss of family members but he was a voracious reader and ambitious and rose well above his 'station in life'. Admittedly he did inherit in his early 20s a sizeable block of land but was sensible with his loot and studied hard becoming brilliant at a great variety of things... hardly 'privileged' to begin with. To the astonishment of the people of the times he befriended Native American Indians and did much to aid them... on the 'perceived' negative and hypocritical side, he was a rampant rOOter and would shag any woman who took his fancy!

For every 1 person who does all those things you describe. there are 100 who do exactly the same and don't get anywhere. Not to mention a whole range of subtle and blatant inequalities to do with gender, class, colour, race, ethnicity etc.

IF Ed had hunted his own aggott and SOJ went straight to Fyfe from the start we'd have won by 5 goals... good old IF. And IF we'd sacked BB last year we might be top 4 now...

In the pre match chats everyone at ground level was talking about the rain and the effect it would have on skills.

And you missed the point. You're talking 'luck' and I'm talking about the effects that committed aggression have on attitude... which makes 'luck'.

I think "luck" in the generalised sense of team or individual sport is just a simpletons explanation for cause and effect.

There is luck like when a cricket ball hits a flying seagull and saves a final ball six for your team to win the match, and there is the luck that occurs in you doing the hard work to enable yourself to be in the right place at the right time and take full advantage of a circumstance.

The latter is the sMurph luck last weekend, running to the end of the game and executing with awareness a rehearsed skill under pressure in a crowded environment. As result of years of experience combined with fitness, skills and tactical training.

Murphy's luck was a direct result of Casboult's luck from pushing hard and taking on his opponents, a result of years of bench pressing and fitness regimes and lucky instructions from the coach to be the man pushing forward at that moment.

Finally, Fisher's luck of getting to the contest to execute a "lucky" tap on the end of Casboult's efforts, partly the result of years of ball handling and agility drills.

But then none of that is really a luck like the seagull is it, saying the weekend was luck is just a simpleton way of describing the beneficial results of work ethics they don't understand!

Great care has to be taken when reading too much or too little into a term like luck, it's underlying meaning can be so broad!

There is no direct or indirect relationship between hard work and luck - they are occasionally coincident, nothing more and nothing less.

Geez, this is a philosophical argument that goes back centuries.
Is there such a thing as luck? Is it all predestined? Is it the mathematical statistical probability of an event?

Good...luck  :)) with this discussion folks!

There is no direct or indirect relationship between hard work and luck - they are occasionally coincident, nothing more and nothing less.

You've missed the point entirely, the problem is the use of language not the idea.

I thought the published comments by Bagger's and yourself exposed the different frames of reference you were debating, it's why I wrote what I wrote. To 3rd party readers you were debating two different types of events that can be described as lucky.

There is no direct or indirect relationship between hard work and luck - they are occasionally coincident, nothing more and nothing less.

Yes and no.

Think back to the Gold Coast.

We are up, final contest in front of goal.

McGovern positions himself 1 metre too far out from goal to effect the goalward shot in the dying moments of the match.  Gold Coast got lucky with that but to get that opportunity to have luck, they had to create most of the momentum and play for that final quarter.

Carlton was unlucky that McGovern was getting sucked into that contest, rather than doing the goal line saving like his role was supposed to.  Gold Coast had the inverse effect of being lucky that he was getting sucked into the contest.  Bolton ultimately was the most unlucky.  That result might have been the difference between retaining his job, and not.



Like LP suggests, luck can vary.  A bouncing ball going in the right direction could very well have gotten Toss Lyon and Aint Kilda flag, but the ball ran away from Milne instead of toward.  I seem to recall thinking he was hoping for a lucky bounce and took the pedal off because had he pushed harder to get the aggot his attempt at goal would have been such low percentage that he may not have scored the goal anyway.  Thats where luck didnt smile on Milne and St. Kilda that day.  Result draw, and grand final replay where Collingwood win a premiership.

There are always degrees of luck.  Sometimes you can get lucky by not giving up, and working your bollocks off.  Sometimes irrespective of doing that, luck doesn't lend itself to you.

The truth is though, that in sports, teams do ride their their luck.  Usually that is the combination resulting in the ultimate success and glory.  I can think of a dozen examples where teams get lucky through either their own volition or a combination of circumstances, but there is one ingredient that invariably comes into the equation and that is teams catching a lucky break.  The most important thing to do is make full use of those situations when they present themselves.  The best I can think of is as follows.  15 years ago, Greece won a european cup.  They did it by being disciplined, and working extremely hard on game day and putting in the best 2 years of results a nation of that nature has seen or ever will see.  Yet, if not for a couple of lucky circumstances, they may not have won the trophy.  Examples.  Game 1.  Greece vs Portugal.  Roughly 6 mins into the game, a portugese defender loses the ball by just being a bit sloppy not in the most dangerous of circumstances.  A Greek attacking mid pounces on the lost ball and shoots almost instantaneously after controlling it wrong footing the goalkeeper who may not have even seen it unfold in time to do anything.  1-0 in Greeces favour in a game they ended up winning 2-1.  In the group stages, Greece lost to Russia 2-1.  A 2-0 result would have seen them crash out of those group stages on goal difference.  The goal was a combination of good fortune and good positioning by a forward pouncing on a lose ball at the back post.  In the semi final, one of the worlds best midfielders at the time (Pavel Nedved) left the game after a fairly minor collision after just 28 mins, thanks to a knee injury.  That changed the flow of the game as the Czech Republic had used him to penetrate an otherwise rock solid defense, and were getting closer to scoring until that moment.  The rules of the tournament introduced a silver goal for the first and last time during a tournament.  Silver goal meaning if you scored in the first half of extra time, the game was finished.  Greece scored a silver goal to qualify to the final against Portugal.  Against Portugal the winning goal was a header from a corner.  The corner was misread by defender and goalkeeper who collided rather than intercepting the cross leaving a greek attacker to head it in by simply having had a good ball knocked in, and being in the right place at the right time.  That is a combination of preparation and luck.  If not for goalkeeper and defender colliding that goal doesnt occur and the whole game changes.

This is where teams get lucky, and by doing it of their own volition.  Defenders don't lose the ball without a little bit of pressure.  Players don't get injured without someone contesting.  Balls don't end up in situations which force errors without the dangerous play being created by people being industrious and putting things in just the right area to result in a favourable circumstance.

A little known factor heading into that tournament.  Greece had a defender break his leg in a car accident.  He had been a mainstay in the lineup through qualifying for 18 months or the 16 official matches required to qualify, and missed all of the final tournament(Nikos Dabizas).  The fact that someone else was ready to fill in for his absence and did so with aplomb is a combination of luck and hard work by others.  Had Greece bombed out of that tournament, through a defense that conceded too many goals, they would have been talking about how unlucky it was to lose said player through a car accident of all circumstances. 


The fates play a role to a degree.  The adage of the harder you work the luckier you get is true to a degree.  You cannot control when circumstances are going to conspire against you, or for you.  What you can control is where you sit for those circumstances to play themselves out.


As an avid sports fan, watching a country of my heritage win one of those tournaments is possibly one of the great dreams for anybody.  I still have people tell me that I lived their dreams.  The reality is, that I was 22, had the available resources and means to not only get to that tournament but buy tickets and get to every single match that Greece played in plus a couple more.  The odds of that occurring for anyone of Greek heritage ever again are so slim given Greece's relative standing, and their ability to win those tournaments that it is something that I will forever consider myself lucky to have witnessed it in my lifetime.  I did have to have the guts to go out on a limb, and travel halfway around the world to a foreign country, expecting nothing but some entertainment by our opposition, and to have a bit of an adventure and managed to get lucky and see some of my wildest dreams come true.  That is where I created my own luck.  The rest of circumstances conspired to assist with lady luck playing her part.

For every 1 person who does all those things you describe. there are 100 who do exactly the same and don't get anywhere. Not to mention a whole range of subtle and blatant inequalities to do with gender, class, colour, race, ethnicity etc.

Life is difficult, Pauly. But, paradoxically, if you realise that it doesn't seem quite so difficult. There are few free rides. (sorry if that sounds somewhat preachy, not intended to be that way - I actually really understand your viewpoint... and please know that's not meant to sound patronizing.)

Let's try another tack on the luck thing (enjoying the 'dance' Pauly? Sorry about your foot). 2 people in an organisation, same gender, similar ages, similar skills and capabilities, similar appearances re attractiveness... one is bright and optimistic and going the extra yard, the other is a misery guts, always up for a whinge. One can be promoted... who gets the gig?

Now apply this to last week's game. We were aggressive, positive, confident... things that are deeply important to Teaguey and presumable the remainder of the coaching and fitness group. Without the positive, aggressive, offensive mind-set Murph doesn't bother to bust a gut to get into dangerous positions, SPS doesn't launch himself into tackles lifting his team mates, Daisy trusts his gut and runs behind the gathering pack to kick a goal, ditto many other examples from Sunday's game.

What seemed like 'luck' was actually cause and effect... nothing more complicated than that, with the positive mental attitude that the coaching group is instilling in our blokes, they're manufacturing opportunities.... Attitude pushed them into situations they might otherwise avoid, when you do that you greatly increase your likelihood of what appears to be 'luck.'

FWIW I seldom actually use the word 'luck'... except in lotteries and the like. Was I unlucky to end up with PTSD (and the associated anxiety issues), of course not, I was in the military so I was going to see or participate in horrors... and so it goes.