Prematch Prediction
Fill in the blank with one word.
Gee, didn't _____________ show a bit tonight!!!
Clem.
Gee, didn't the Eagles show a bit tonight!!! :D
Gee, didn't the Eagles show a bit tonight!!! :D
Using 2 words is cheating. ;) :P
Using 2 words is cheating. ;) :P
Does WestCoast qualify? :D
Our line up is not looking that strong, truth be known, but funny things d happen. My expectations are not high, but :)
Using 2 words is cheating. ;) :P
Does WestCoast qualify? :D
After more thought, I should have said Carlton. If you want to go pessimistic I would have suggested going WCE. :P ;D
Using 2 words is cheating. ;) :P
Does WestCoast qualify? :D
After more thought, I should have said Carlton. If you want to go pessimistic I would have suggested going WCE. :P ;D
I'll pay that, it's been a long day!
Streaker.
Gee, didn't I don't have foxtel so I have no idea show a bit tonight!
:-[
Anyone know of an online link?
Gee, didn't Boekhorst show a bit tonight!
Watching a live feed in NZ at the moment... going in hard, both sides. Eagles get first goal.
The only reason they got a goal was because Dinger took off and again, poor awareness around him and got caught with the ball.
Eagles kicking with about a 5 goal breeze in the first. They get the first super goal of the game.
Good early signs from Jaksch
Bell and Tuohy have taken up where they left off last year ::)
2 goals to the Eagles from errors and poor defensive work from Watson saw them sweep up field for another goal.
We'll know a lot more when we've got the gale in the second qtr.
I know we're playing lots of kids but it ain't a good sign when you've only had 3 i50 after 18 odd minutes!!
2 goals to the Eagles from errors and poor defensive work from Watson saw them sweep up field for another goal.
We'll know a lot more when we've got the gale in the second qtr.
Good to see that having discovered Watson is best suited in the fwd line we play him in defence where has proven he is not suited. Good preseason development and confidence builder - NOT!
2 goals to the Eagles from errors and poor defensive work from Watson saw them sweep up field for another goal.
We'll know a lot more when we've got the gale in the second qtr.
Good to see that having discovered Watson is best suited in the fwd line we play him in defence where has proven he is not suited. Good preseason development and confidence builder - NOT!
Looked like he was up forward to me. They all pushed back fairly severely.
2 goals to the Eagles from errors and poor defensive work from Watson saw them sweep up field for another goal.
We'll know a lot more when we've got the gale in the second qtr.
No we won't. We're getting a good old fashion walloping here and it ain't got anything to do with the wind and everything to do with work rate and physical intent. Always 2 and to the ball and flatfooted. Yazz could have cleaned a couple up but chose to stay in no mans land. Then when we get the ball we bomb it long to no one.........or 3 WC players !!
I'm sorry for my rant but this looks all too familiar!!
Cant buy a goal. To quote Lurch from The Adams Family "Uuuuurrrrrrrrrr"
Lucas is playing for WCE tonight.
Lucas is playing for WCE tonight.
His first possession was to our advantage, nothings changed.
Lucas is playing for WCE tonight.
His first possession was to our advantage, nothings changed.
We didn't get many to our advantage when he was with us... ;)
I know it's early but gee boechurst looks twitchy and light on for a mature aged recruit..buckle having a stinker too..
We have no team out there, no coach. I reckon a few of the kids have done alright. Jaksch looks okay. Cripps has won some nice hard balls. Bell plenty of it but has not used it once.
We're such a dumb footy team. Fair dinkum! These new kids are playing like there more experienced teammates which leads me to believe that they're being instructed to play this way !!!!!
It don't matter who we recruit, its pretty obvious we're teaching them wrong !
Didn't capitalise on the wind
Poor decision making
Had to laugh when Mooney said fatigue is starting to effect decision making, we have started off tired from the get go.
Cant make anything out of it other than:
- There young blokes seem to be more composed than our young blokes
- We are still making poor decisions
I know it's early but gee boechurst looks twitchy and light on for a mature aged recruit..
Or could it be that WCE have been on the EFC pre-season plan? :o
Doesn't look too bad.
Considering 10 of our best players aren't playing I am rather impressed by some of the efforts.
Simon White BOG???
Cripps back on the ground after another stinger, serious or not?
No accident WCE's top six are all 10 year players.
Didn't expect us to win but I thought I'd see something a little more heartening from our youngsters.
Bell has a huge heart and engine but no brains. He's a liability.
Didn't expect us to win but I thought I'd see something a little more heartening from our youngsters.
Bell has a huge heart and engine but no brains. He's a liability.
This
Observations from ground level (ie hard to see)
Eagles have full strength midfield vs Curnow and Bell. Should smash us but breaking even.
Defence set up was Rowe, Fields, Jaksch, Byrne, Dick and Yarran.
Tell me they are going to click... They are very lost.
Jones and Watson, lazy, not working. Compared to JK, just sitting back and waiting
Cas working Hard as is Bell.
Boekhorst great tackle in defence. Lucas ghosting out the back looking for cheapies.
Quote... "Jones and Watson, lazy, not working".
The last thing I wanted to read tonight.
Take absolutely no notice of this game.
Not a skerrick.
Not one iota
It is the most meaningless game rendered even moreso by wind conditions that we're unlikely to see at all in the season proper.
Forwards have absolutely no opportunity to show anything when the ball doesn't reach them in one half and gets bombed on or over their heads in the second half.
The midfield is mostly back in Melbourne and if they're not they're watching from the stands meaning that young ones and fringe players have to step up a dozen notches to what they'll be required to do in the actual season.
Pre-season games usually mean nothing but this one really takes the cake.
Lucky I bought a record Lods.
Conditions and ground are perfect though. Bit of breeze but dropped right off.
Wood just took the sort of mark that Warnock never takes. The kicking was similar though.
Don't care about the result, but would like to take something out of the game. So far can take nothing out of the game. NOTHING!
Lucky I bought a record Lods.
Conditions and ground are perfect though. Bit of breeze but dropped right off.
You must be at a different ground Shades. :D
The Eagles kick out is nearly reaching the centre circle :P
How does Tutt look?
Liking the look of Cripps. Not flashy but does the hard things. Loved Broeky's run.
How does Tutt look?
Ok. Not getting a huge amount of the ball though was involved in our first goal even if he shanked the kick.
Eagles maturity is working us over all over the ground.
Most of all, its the subtle things that their wiley veterans are doing that is giving us no chance.
Example...
How many time have we worked into the wind and been forced to kick to the 'dead pocket'. Every time! Their backs are cutting off one half of our forward line and forcing us to lead to a spot where, according to Schofield, it is impossible to score from.
Casboult, Wood, Johnson all had shots from there - for 0.2.
Throw Hendo, into the side and suddenly Casboult and Jones are getting the 2nd and 3rd best defenders, rather than 1st and 2nd.
Positives...
k-jax is out there and doing ok. Considering his year was over in some peoples minds, he may be available come R1. Bonus.
Fields keeps bopping up. Everytime #37 comes up, i have to check who it was that just caught my eye. Its always Fields.
Curnow - he's fit and healthy and over his injury. Should be in R1.
Otherwise, plenty of kids getting a crack and seeing what its all about. Which is what this is all about.
A few blokes seem to be going in hard but physically we are not an imposing side.
It's a good hit-out for the game against Williamstown in Round 1 ;)
+ 1
See how they just switched it Krudds.
Eagles always have the outlet man, our guys aren't aware of it.
Smith lined up Priddis, he just rode the bump... He'll
Learn
Nothing match but it's good for the kids to get a good run.
Yarran - looks composed in defence, needs to be settled in a position and will be a jet
Cripps - Been ok, zero support for his inside bread and butter play. Could be great with Judd, Murphy and Gibbs back
Boekhorst - Been solid. Looked a little flustered when he takes on the game. Experience and game time should wipe that out.
Jaksch - Really impressive considering there's no Jamison and he's playing second fiddle to Rowe. Played on Kennedy late and did well.
Bell - This bloke would be a gun if he had an iota of awareness.
Jones - Didn't do much in a nothing forward line.
Tuohy - Got a bit of it early, looked to set up play more. Went more defensive later on.
Graham - Unsighted
Actually I think Graham has been OK. Curnow been very good. Wood a thousand times better than Warnock.
If Tutt's playing regular games we're struggling. Jaksch the highlight for us. Looks more composed than Rowe.
Sack Wiley, change the jumper back.
Smith could be anything.
What did we pay for Jones again?
See how they just switched it Krudds.
Eagles always have the outlet man, our guys aren't aware of it.
Smith lined up Priddis, he just rode the bump... He'll
Learn
Yep, exactly.
They are simply playing smarter football, because they have smarter more experienced players.
We have a bunch of kids who are just trying to run out the game.
Walker, Menzel, Murphy, Gibbs, Judd, Krueser, Henderson, Everitt, Thomas, Jamison, Carrazzo
Might find a spot for those 11.
Statistics never tell the whole tale but here a few shockers:
The Weagles have had 183 possessions forward . We have had 66. (20 minutes into the final quarter)
The Weagles have 6 players with20 or more possessions, lead by Gaff. We have none.
The Weagles have 5 players with less than 10 possessions. We have 15!
Walker, Menzel, Murphy, Gibbs, Judd, Kreuzer, Henderson, Everitt, Thomas, Jamison, Carrazzo
Might find a spot for those 11.
Just maybe. :)
See how they just switched it Krudds.
Eagles always have the outlet man, our guys aren't aware of it.
Smith lined up Priddis, he just rode the bump... He'll
Learn
Yep, exactly.
They are simply playing smarter football, because they have smarter more experienced players.
We have a bunch of kids who are just trying to run out the game.
Bang on Kruds
so much negativity on the site you would think we lost round 1 by 100 points.
We lost with a bunch of kids, none of whom really did a lot statistically. Those who saw the game may have more idea of what really happened. However:
Carlton 2 - 4 - 5 - 47
Weagles 1 - 9 - 15 - 78
They could have kicked us into next week had they kicked straight.
At any rate, I am very pleased in the pants with Jaksch
See how they just switched it Krudds.
Eagles always have the outlet man, our guys aren't aware of it.
Smith lined up Priddis, he just rode the bump... He'll
Learn
Yep, exactly.
They are simply playing smarter football, because they have smarter more experienced players.
We have a bunch of kids who are just trying to run out the game.
Bang on Kruds
so much negativity on the site you would think we lost round 1 by 100 points.
Had they kicked straight, it could have been 100 points.
However, it isn't Round #1 and Richmond are still there for the taking if we're up to it.
Had they kicked straight, it could have been 100 points.
However, it isn't Round #1 and Richmond are still there for the taking if we're up to it.
Not really, Carlton applied a fair bit of pressure on their goal kickers.
We didn't get much forward delivery because most of our best mids weren't playing and had poor forward delivery.
Actually I think Graham has been OK. Curnow been very good. Wood a thousand times better than Warnock.
I thought Curnow was ordinary. Wasn't he tagging Priddis? I agree on Wood, though.
All things considered I don't think this result is anything to don sack cloth and ashes about. OK, if they'd have kicked straight, if they'd have done this, if they'd have done that - ya de ya da. I didn't see the game but fact is, a lot of our newbies got a taste and we weren't annihilated.
Not an end of the world scenario it would seem - looking forward to the next game.
Good result all things considered. Jaksch clearly the standout in terms of our new recruits.
We're pox
I'm microwaving my memberships... 8)
8)
Its nice to see the kids play. I like looking fwd to see what positives are coming through. It makes it hard when the poor buggers have very little experience supporting them.
What was most disappointing was watching the game style we play . that's not too dissimilar to the crap we' be dished up the past 2 years ! Bombing long balls in hope rather than purpous ! Always chasing tail rather than taking the bull by the horns.
Don't see the point of playing all the kids together. Who are they supposed to learn from out there?
Our game style stinks and my fear is that by the time we finally realise it, we'll be too far behind the pack........again!!
Easy to say "Meh NAB cup, nothing game, played kids", yeah thats true but, at some point, if we are going to improve, something needs to change. A spark needs to occur. I need a sign that tells me "we might go ok". All I saw was more of the the same from last year. Yes KJ was composed, other than that, nothing stood out for me. I was left feeling uninspired. Oh well, plenty of good players to come back and an 800+ game coach. Lets see what happens in the next game.
Some more statistical stuff:
Wood had 17 taps. Casboult had 8.
Lycett had 28 taps (more than both our rucks together), while Sinclair had 16.
Conclusion: We were pounded in the rucks.
I am not overly surprised. At AFL level this is Wood's worst area. Wood did have 11 possessions, a little down for him. Casboult had 10, with 4 marks, not what we want either. This suggests we have a LOT of work to get our ruck department right.
It also suggests that Lycett may be becoming the sort of player I thought he might. He is a player in the making.
Clearances:
Carlton 28 Weagles 34
Centre Breaks:
Carlton 8 Weagles 6
Conclusion:
Even though our rucks got beaten, our mids were not bad at the stoppages. This is promising, but shows we really need someone to get taps to our guys more often. It is also promising as none of our starting mids, except Curnow, a stopper, played.
Disposals:
Carlton 254 Weagles 355 (!!!)
Chief Disposal Getters:
Carlton: Tuohy 19 Bell 19 Curnow 18
Weagles: Gaff 27 Shepherd 24 Shuey 23 Priddis 23 Masten 21 Rosa 20
Conclusion: We did OK in contested ball, but we got outrun terribly. The uncontested possession count was massively in their favour. They ran by for the handball better - the sign of a more experienced team. We really have to improve in this area. One of the guys we recruited to do this, Viojo-Rainbow, managed 1 possession. Now he is only a kid in his first game and I am willing to give him time, but he was only our worst example. Simmo, one of our best in this regard got 12 possessions.
Forwards:
Carlton: Watson 2 possessions and 0 scores. Jones 5 possessions and 1 goal. Buckley 6 possessions and 0 scores. Casboult 10 possessions and 2 points. Smith 5 possessions and 0 scores. Tutt 7 possessions and 0 scores. I could go on.
Weagles: Josh Kennedy 14 possessions, 7 marks and 3 goals 1 point. LeCras 16 possessions and 2 goals 2 points. Again I could continue.
Conclusion:
[1] We weren't getting the ball forward very much.
[2] We weren't moving the ball forward very efficiently.
[3] We didn't make much of the few chances that did come our way. It would be difficult saying that any of our forwards looked like beating their opponents 1 out regularly.
[4] We have had a massive change to the personnel in our forward line. But have they actually improved it yet?
Walker, Menzel, Murphy, Gibbs, Judd, Krueser, Henderson, Everitt, Thomas, Jamison, Carrazzo
Might find a spot for those 11.
We finished 13th last year with that lot.
I am looking forward to the young kids pushing for their spots.
We should play players on form, not on name.
The usual pre-season hit out with both sides trailing off at times. It got a bit intense late in the second, but not much to watch. With so many better players out it was hardly surprising how the weagles dominated possession and the result seems about right.
Fair bit to like about Jaksch, and seems likely to play early on so Henderson can go forward for good. Yarran did plenty of good things and Cripps and Graham were Ok. Bell just does some nice stuff and is a powerful player but his decision making and awareness are poor, so he gets caught trying to do too much.
The forward line, when it did get down there, struggled to keep the ball in, especially in the first half. Jones seemes to get stuck behind his man alot, and Watson hardly got near it.
Main issue as a few have mentioned was the repeated bombing of the ball long where it was easily cut off. Even in calm conditions this is dumb play. Maybe many lacked the confidence to move the ball around, but it was probably a function of a disorganised midfield, resulting in few options, hence the bombing.
This all being said, we had no injuries, in contrast to the weagles which lost Mckenzie with a knee.
Based on tonight's game there's a bit to look forward to with Clem Smith, Patrick Cripps & Kristian Jaksch, but very poor efforts from Liam Jones, Jason Tutt, Blaine Boekhurst and Matthew Dick. Matthew Watson was MIA and Tom Bell's decision making was relatively poor.
A 5 goal gale to one end didn't help.
A 5 goal gale to one end didn't help.
Ummm, both sides had that end twice each!
A 5 goal gale to one end didn't help.
Ummm, both sides had that end twice each!
How many memberships will you buy after this?
A 5 goal gale to one end didn't help.
Ummm, both sides had that end twice each!
How many memberships will you buy after this?
Have a guess? You think that performance sold memberships do you?
Is Ratten allowed to coach us for the next game if MM is unavailable? :o
A 5 goal gale to one end didn't help.
Ummm, both sides had that end twice each!
How many memberships will you buy after this?
Have a guess? You think that performance sold memberships do you?
maybe 5-6?
A 5 goal gale to one end didn't help.
Ummm, both sides had that end twice each!
How many memberships will you buy after this?
Have a guess? You think that performance sold memberships do you?
maybe 5-6?
lol
Cripps was good early but faded...
Jaksch....worth the effort to recruit, solid and doesnt do anything stupid...
Boekhorst....I thought he was ok when he had space and time and he can create and find other players..
Dick....didnt make me feel secure..
Tutt....not up to it IMO..
Jones....didnt work hard enough...
Smith...seem to do a lot of running around for not much return, maybe trying too hard..
Bell...was able to compete because has the big frame but like others said was his usual unreliable self in terms of nous and disposal...
Curnow got some footy but I thought Priddis was nearly BOG...like he usually is when he plays us...
Touhy.....didnt mind his game...
Wood...probably not good enough given Lycett and Sinclair are novice rucks...was fair and not our worst but needs to do better...
Buckley.....unsighted
Casboult....needed the run...
Watto....could change places with the other Watto in the test team and the results would be the same.....zero
Not a great effort but that team was light on for mature bodies and we had trouble finding the ball which didnt help Jones, Watson etc.....
The team is very much in the development stage and with so many new players you cant expect them to all know each other games and be able to gel together as a team.
Bit of patience required and we will see how they go next game.....
Walker, Menzel, Murphy, Gibbs, Judd, Krueser, Henderson, Everitt, Thomas, Jamison, Carrazzo
Might find a spot for those 11.
Now this is the most important 'stat' of the game!
I didn't really learn much from the game. Cripps will make it, BB is willing to take the game on and try and use his speed, he also works both ways and defensively is better than some too, which I like.
KJ also has a future. Yarran showed his class, Touhy showed some form. Wood, 3 marks and 11 touches is better than RW's average contribution.
Byrne had 8 touches and must be ahead of Walsh and Gowers in the pecking order.
It simply doesn't matter/ Take 10 of the Eagles' best out of their team tonight and how would they go then?
Judge none of our lads given the numbers missing...
Fortunately in these games no-one takes them seriously. If people did then they've spent years learning nothing. These games a jog, trot and canters with no intensity. Been to two in 20 years and they both put me to sleep, one literally.
It's a hitout.
Oh and 0 injuries, this is probably the next most important stat.
Tonight was a seriously Meh game.
Eleven walk up starters were missing and the Toast were fairly strong in gale like conditions.
The Good
Jaksch
Boekhorst in patches
Bell
Levi
Yazz
The Bad.
Watson
Buckley (lowered his colors)
Dick/Tutt/Byrne/Sheehan
A 5 goal gale to one end didn't help.
Ummm, both sides had that end twice each!
Just talking about our inexperienced side - the challenging/windy conditions didn't help us.
Cripps was good early but faded...
Jaksch....worth the effort to recruit, solid and doesnt do anything stupid...
Boekhorst....I thought he was ok when he had space and time and he can create and find other players..
Dick....didnt make me feel secure..
Tutt....not up to it IMO..
Jones....didnt work hard enough...
Smith...seem to do a lot of running around for not much return, maybe trying too hard..
Bell...was able to compete because has the big frame but like others said was his usual unreliable self in terms of nous and disposal...
Curnow got some footy but I thought Priddis was nearly BOG...like he usually is when he plays us...
Touhy.....didnt mind his game...
Wood...probably not good enough given Lycett and Sinclair are novice rucks...was fair and not our worst but needs to do better...
Buckley.....unsighted
Casboult....needed the run...
Watto....could change places with the other Watto in the test team and the results would be the same.....zero
Not a great effort but that team was light on for mature bodies and we had trouble finding the ball which didnt help Jones, Watson etc.....
The team is very much in the development stage and with so many new players you cant expect them to all know each other games and be able to gel together as a team.
Bit of patience required and we will see how they go next game.....
Good summary, couldn't add much to that EB1.
Also liked KJ and barring injury will fit in nicely down back and give Hendo the forward line to focus on... the forward line missed Hendo's leadership and direction. Although delivery to the forwards was ordinary at best, there were still concerns - particularly Watson.
Very important a lot of those newbies got to experience 'the pace' of the game and the Eagles didn't disappoint in terms of vigour and speed - good to get them at near full strength on their dung heap.
We'd want to see a marked improvement against Rottingwood in a fortnight.
Touhy showed some form.
The thing 2E showed me (again) was that he continues to make stupid mistakes and gives away frees when he is deep in defence. Does this too often for mine. He needs to rectify this pronto.
Touhy showed some form.
The thing 2E showed me (again) was that he continues to make stupid mistakes and gives away frees when he is deep in defence. Does this too often for mine. He needs to rectify this pronto.
Sheesh stop stealing my title of 'Resident Malcontent'. :P
Touhy showed some form.
The thing 2E showed me (again) was that he continues to make stupid mistakes and gives away frees when he is deep in defence. Does this too often for mine. He needs to rectify this pronto.
Sheesh stop stealing my title of 'Resident Malcontent'. :P
Carrots I am just so desperate for some good signs, there were a couple (KJ, BB sort of). I say again, if we are pinning our hopes on blokes like Bell, Graham and even 2E to an extent, we are in strife.
I think you're a little harsh on Graham and 2E, Bell I agree has not changed one bit if anything seems a little worse. BB did not do much but gave us a little taste with the run through the middle in the third quarter.
Cripps was good early but faded...
Jaksch....worth the effort to recruit, solid and doesnt do anything stupid...
Boekhorst....I thought he was ok when he had space and time and he can create and find other players..
Dick....didnt make me feel secure..
Tutt....not up to it IMO..
Jones....didnt work hard enough...
Smith...seem to do a lot of running around for not much return, maybe trying too hard..
Bell...was able to compete because has the big frame but like others said was his usual unreliable self in terms of nous and disposal...
Curnow got some footy but I thought Priddis was nearly BOG...like he usually is when he plays us...
Touhy.....didnt mind his game...
Wood...probably not good enough given Lycett and Sinclair are novice rucks...was fair and not our worst but needs to do better...
Buckley.....unsighted
Casboult....needed the run...
Watto....could change places with the other Watto in the test team and the results would be the same.....zero
Not a great effort but that team was light on for mature bodies and we had trouble finding the ball which didnt help Jones, Watson etc.....
The team is very much in the development stage and with so many new players you cant expect them to all know each other games and be able to gel together as a team.
Bit of patience required and we will see how they go next game.....
Good summary, couldn't add much to that EB1.
Also liked KJ and barring injury will fit in nicely down back and give Hendo the forward line to focus on... the forward line missed Hendo's leadership and direction. Although delivery to the forwards was ordinary at best, there were still concerns - particularly Watson.
Very important a lot of those newbies got to experience 'the pace' of the game and the Eagles didn't disappoint in terms of vigour and speed - good to get them at near full strength on their dung heap.
We'd want to see a marked improvement against Rottingwood in a fortnight.
Agree on Henderson Baggers....Jones competed against two players several times and thats not how we will setup and with Henderson in the team I expect more out of Jones
and Watson although I'm not a fan of playing all three down forward when you have Casboult as well.....
Losing Eddie Betts is really hurting us and without Menzel we lack that smaller smarter player......Tutt and Buckley dont have the tricks so far...
I think you're a little harsh on Graham and 2E, Bell I agree has not changed one bit if anything seems a little worse. BB did not do much but gave us a little taste with the run through the middle in the third quarter.
I thought Touhy was ok and Boekhorst did some nice cameo stuff but got pushed of the ball a bit easily...
Graham lacks a yard of pace and I thought he struggled to get to the footy, will be a better player in Melbourne with a softer track....
Bell was the same Bell we have seen for the past two seasons and continues to turn the ball over in between doing some good work...very frustrating player to coach I would imagine..
I recall that buckley had a shocker of a NAB last year.
Not worried about him yet
What about Docherty? I've been pinning my hopes on him, but he just hasn't delivered the sort of form that I had hoped he was capable of. Isnt he supposedly going through the midfield this year? if so, he should be dominating these sort of matches.
Also, everybody keeps talking about three talls in the F50 - Casboult, Henderson and Jones, but isnt Casboult spending half the time in the ruck? I'm not sure I can take another year of Casboult playing forward when he's spent.
^^
I reckon Docherty is way overrated on this forum. Has done sweet FA other than being a pick #12 in the draft. Yes he will improve but he'll need to.
You play crap its just the nab cup
You play well its just the nab cup
Not worried about the result, but plenty of kids missed an opportunity to impress. Game had very little structure or flow as far as we were concerned.
^^
I reckon Docherty is way overrated on this forum. Has done sweet FA other than being a pick #12 in the draft. Yes he will improve but he'll need to.
Doing well for a kid who has played 29 games.
He spent most of his first 2 years injured with hip issues.
He's done okay. Still yet to prove anything though IMO.
Definitely an ordinary result. hoping the narrow dung heap ground and howling wind didn't help our young guys.
QEO is a massive ground which should better suit our running players like Boekhorst.
Bell was probably our best. Followed by 2e and maybe Jaksch who was solid.
Can't remember one decent entry into the forward line To our tall guys which gave them even half a chance.
There’s a bit of disappointment about last night’s game but it has little bearing on how the side will perform in the actual season.
I take very little from performances in these games and here are some of the reasons.
Missing players- as has been pointed out we were probably missing around 10 of our best. Not only does that affect the result but it also has an effect on the ability of young players to shine. Instead of attracting the third or fourth best opposition player they are going head to head with the 'battle hardened' best the opposition has to offer. That also has a flow on effect as each player down the hierarchy is also faced with a better match-up. Our tall forwards didn’t have great games but the scoring opportunities provided by Gibbs, Murphy Judd will be significantly greater than last night’s midfield could provide
Structures- While generally the pre-season offers you the opportunity to work on structures and set plays these are pretty meaningless unless the players who will have these roles in the regular season are present to work on them. That also has a flow on effect as players are asked to perform roles they might not in regular competition.
Intensity-the match pressure in pre-season is nowhere near as intense as in the regular season. Experienced players like Simpson probably just cruise through a match like last night knowing it’s mickey mouse stuff and he has to look after himself for the main games to come. I bet you wouldn’t see a Carlton captain smiling like Rowe was at the end of a game after a loss like that in a regular season
Fitness levels- these games are about getting match fitness. For some of the new recruits even a low intensity game like last nights are probably a huge step up from State level and Under 18 games. While training loads are structured during the year to ensure period of “freshening up” at various stages, it wouldn’t surprise to hear that we trained fairly hard in the lead up to last night’s match.
Unfamiliarity with team-mates abilities under match conditions- A lot of these blokes are still in the “getting to know you stage”. They probably haven’t had a lot of experience working together in a game so that they know the skills and abilities of team-mates under match pressure, when and who to give that pass to… where and when to lead….. or creating room for team-mates to work into.
If you see a glimpse….like we saw with Boekhorst or Smith…mark it down for future reference but don’t put a huge store in it just yet.
Don’t give the result a second thought.
Hope you're Lods. I was just hoping to see something different, not more of the same.
Thanks Lods for those words. Ease a lot my disappointment re yesterday's game.
Additionally I think leadership were missing too. As you said Simpson seemed to be cruising. Rowe did his best, however there need to be at least another four or five experienced leaders all over the ground to maintain some sort of structures during a game. Carrazzo is good at this.
Thanks Lods for those words. Ease a lot my disappointment re yesterday's game.
Additionally I think leadership were missing too. As you said Simpson seemed to be cruising. Rowe did his best, however there need to be at least another four or five experienced leaders all over the ground to maintain some sort of structures during a game. Carrazzo is good at this.
Very true.
Normally we'd have leaders on every line.... Jamison Murphy Judd Henderson, Gibbs, Carrazzo....if not vocally leading the way, doing so by deeds.
How much easier for the youngsters with those guys around
We were missing 10 or so of our top players. They had a lot of their top blokes playing.
We lost by 5 goals.
Hardly suicide stuff surely.
We were missing 10 or so of our top players. They had a lot of their top blokes playing.
We lost by 5 goals.
Hardly suicide stuff surely.
No excuses needed IMO. Win by 5 goals and we shouldn't read too much into it, same applies for a loss. The guys are just brushing away cobwebs ATM.
If the aim is to add depth to the list then we must play the young guys against seasoned opponents as much as possible. A win or loss is of no consequence so why not stack the team with newbies?
If the aim is to add depth to the list then we must play the young guys against seasoned opponents as much as possible. A win or loss is of no consequence so why not stack the team with newbies?
I agree. I have a feeling they were thrown in the deep end on purpose.
I see Mackenzie has done his ACL. Puts a bit of perspective on what you want to get out of a practice match.
If the aim is to add depth to the list then we must play the young guys against seasoned opponents as much as possible. A win or loss is of no consequence so why not stack the team with newbies?
I agree. I have a feeling they were thrown in the deep end on purpose.
There's no doubt in my mind about that. The message being that each player has to shape up asap if they want a regular game and stay on the list.
I see Mackenzie has done his ACL. Puts a bit of perspective on what you want to get out of a practice match.
Yes, and it looks like Libba Jr has done his now
thats three knees before round 1.....
Well at least our kids can see the step up in class and effort required... and why they have to complete every session at 100% etc.
Cripps amd Jaksch should be playing rnd 1 based on last nights game.....the former is the big bodied mid we need and I was impressed how he won the footy and fed the
ball out in the first half...he really is our best young player in the making and can be a A grade player and destined for a good career.
Jaksch gives us some reliablity down back and is already a decent player in the making who just needs game time vs the best KP players to hone his skills...yes he will have his days when some KP forwards make a meal out of him but in three years time will be one of the best KP backs in the comp IMO...
Boekhorst probably didnt do enough to demand a round 1 game but he still has another couple of games to impress and I think he has a future
but needs the likes of Murphy, Gibbs, Judd playing well for him to be more effective on the outside providing run and carry as he wont win the footy with his light frame vs the
bigger mids in strong contests..
But as least Boeky has some outside "hurt factor" and is a bit Camporeale-like. We badly need his pace. If he can emulate Isaac Smith we're on a winner.
Cripps also looks a player but he still needs to develop an AFL tank and the ability to spread. I can remember Ratten saying (when he played that role) that it was his job to get to contests, and the more he got to, the more he influenced the outcome. That is Cripps' future in a nutshell.
KJ looks a good long term player and a smart list management decision at this point in time. KP defenders don't grow on trees.
Bell is a real worry. So much good work undone with poor decision making but we so need a player of his ilk in that role against the bigger midfielders.
Bell is a real worry. So much good work undone with poor decision making but we so need a player of his ilk in that role against the bigger midfielders.
Not sure he can improve this aspect.
He'd be a super player if he could.
Just takes too much time and is often then under pressure when he eventually does dispose of it...either gets caught or turns it over.
Bell is still getting stronger. He'll never be Darren Jarman but with age will come better application - especially if someone can continue to work with him.
I'm not sure that you can blame Bell for turnovers. I reckon we lack the structures to ensure that we get the best value from possessions, and particularly contested possessions.
Other clubs are able to minimise turnovers and/or neutralise the damage when they do occur.
Gee I would love to be proved wrong, but I think Bell lacks the necessary skill. Great strong guy, goes at it 100%, but class comes from possession of skill.
As for Watson, once again I would love to be proved wrong....
Bell is a real worry. So much good work undone with poor decision making but we so need a player of his ilk in that role against the bigger midfielders.
Not sure he can improve this aspect.
He'd be a super player if he could.
Just takes too much time and is often then under pressure when he eventually does dispose of it...either gets caught or turns it over.
Zero awareness. Takes on tackles he should never take on. It's a pity because he's a big body that can find the pill. Sometimes with players like this it all just clicks one day. We can only pray.
Bell is a real worry. So much good work undone with poor decision making but we so need a player of his ilk in that role against the bigger midfielders.
Not sure he can improve this aspect.
He'd be a super player if he could.
Just takes too much time and is often then under pressure when he eventually does dispose of it...either gets caught or turns it over.
Zero awareness. Takes on tackles he should never take on. It's a pity because he's a big body that can find the pill. Sometimes with players like this it all just clicks one day. We can only pray.
Bell has so much Kouta about him it is uncanny.
Kouta wasn't the best player in his early days and I feel Bell is the same.
I'd rather someone getting the ball as regularly as Bell does and getting to the contest. He was everywhere during the West Coast game.
I seem to remember Carazzo also being our turnover king there for awhile then he came good.
He just needs to 'accidentally' run through someone to make people fear his footsteps. ;)
Bell has so much Kouta about him it is uncanny.
Kouta wasn't the best player in his early days and I feel Bell is the same.
Other than having a nut sack, he is nothing like Kouta.
Bell has so much Kouta about him it is uncanny.
Kouta wasn't the best player in his early days and I feel Bell is the same.
Other than having a nut sack, he is nothing like Kouta.
Agree.
Bell might have game sense of a young kouta (ie not much) but athletically, besides the broad shoulders and a similar head, there is little in common between the 2.
If we are a serious side this year, either Bell needs to improve more this year than he has in his complete time in the system, or he needs to be overtaken in our best 22.
One of the really unfortunate side effects of Dinger's errors is what it does to the confidence of his team mates. Mistakes are a drain on confidence, and cause frustration which also drains energy.
Great execution lifts confidence and expectation.
I bet this is also frustrating the coaches. His team mates are going to have to be more vocal on the field, giving him clear instructions on what to do... perhaps in the short term, because he wins the aggott so well he should just focus on 'get and give' and only go for runs when team mates tell him to. Those early mistakes of his again the Eagles were very costly.
Bell has so much Kouta about him it is uncanny.
Kouta wasn't the best player in his early days and I feel Bell is the same.
Other than having a nut sack, he is nothing like Kouta.
Agree.
Bell might have game sense of a young kouta (ie not much) but athletically, besides the broad shoulders and a similar head, there is little in common between the 2.
If we are a serious side this year, either Bell needs to improve more this year than he has in his complete time in the system, or he needs to be overtaken in our best 22.
Or we use structures that complement Bell's strengths and cover his weaknesses.
Bell has so much Kouta about him it is uncanny.
Kouta wasn't the best player in his early days and I feel Bell is the same.
Other than having a nut sack, he is nothing like Kouta.
Agree.
Bell might have game sense of a young kouta (ie not much) but athletically, besides the broad shoulders and a similar head, there is little in common between the 2.
If we are a serious side this year, either Bell needs to improve more this year than he has in his complete time in the system, or he needs to be overtaken in our best 22.
Or we use structures that complement Bell's strengths and cover his weaknesses.
His strengths are his size, and ability to get tackled with the ball. Now sure what structures allow him to prosper.
His kicking is average. He awareness is about as bad as it gets in the AFL and he doesn't do enough without the ball to justify this.
The only way we can take advantage of this is to handball it directly to his opponent so that he can then run through that opponent. With a bit of luck, his opponent gets injured/taken off.
Not very practical.
Unfortunately Bell will only ever be an average support act IMO. He's one we must be looking to replace with someone much better if we are to be ultimately successful.
Bell has so much Kouta about him it is uncanny.
Kouta wasn't the best player in his early days and I feel Bell is the same.
Other than having a nut sack, he is nothing like Kouta.
Agree.
Bell might have game sense of a young kouta (ie not much) but athletically, besides the broad shoulders and a similar head, there is little in common between the 2.
If we are a serious side this year, either Bell needs to improve more this year than he has in his complete time in the system, or he needs to be overtaken in our best 22.
Or we use structures that complement Bell's strengths and cover his weaknesses.
His strengths are his size, and ability to get tackled with the ball. Now sure what structures allow him to prosper.
His kicking is average. He awareness is about as bad as it gets in the AFL and he doesn't do enough without the ball to justify this.
The only way we can take advantage of this is to handball it directly to his opponent so that he can then run through that opponent. With a bit of luck, his opponent gets injured/taken off.
Not very practical.
Getting there. If he attempts that he'll miss his opponent every time and give his team mates a better than even chance to clean up
Sometimes the best way to assess your team's performance is to ask the supporters of the opposition. So I asked some friends back in Perth for their take on the NAB warm up, here's a summary of their replies:
1. That was a moral loss for the eagles. Should have won by more given the difference in midfield experience. Losing Mackenzie just destroyed their hopes of making the 8.
2. The carlton ruck work was a joke. If they can't take on Lycett and Sinclair they are going to get murdered by Mumford, Jacobs and Sandi in the regular season.
3. Carlton seemed to lack run and structure, they didn't support the ball carrier by breaking to space quickly enough and also allowed the eagles half backs and mids to peel off to easily. Also - why did carlton keep kicking long in hope into the breeze? Especially when they'd flooded back in defence?
4. Getting Jaksch was a good move, still needs to beef up a bit but showed plenty.
5. Clem Smith is going to be either a real hard nut or get cleaned up by someone like luke hodge who really shows him what being hard is all about.
None of them really had anything to say about Bell.
5. Clem Smith is going to be either a real hard nut or get cleaned up by someone like luke hodge who really shows him what being hard is all about.
Im forken sick of people bring up Luke Hodge or for that matter Jordan Lewis when conversation turns to being "hard" and "tough". Those two are just snipers who do there best work under the protection of the AFL. Fork them both, I hope one day Clem cleans up Hodge (fair and square) and ends his career.
I hope one day Clem cleans up Hodge (fair and square) and ends his career.
Nice!! :D
5. Clem Smith is going to be either a real hard nut or get cleaned up by someone like luke hodge who really shows him what being hard is all about.
Im forken sick of people bring up Luke Hodge or for that matter Jordan Lewis when conversation turns to being "hard" and "tough". Those two are just snipers who do there best work under the protection of the AFL. Fork them both, I hope one day Clem cleans up Hodge (fair and square) and ends his career.
This!
Im forken sick of people bring up Luke Hodge or for that matter Jordan Lewis when conversation turns to being "hard" and "tough". Those two are just snipers who do there best work under the protection of the AFL. Fork them both, I hope one day Clem cleans up Hodge (fair and square) and ends his career.
Agreed, Hodge is a dog of a player who earned the bulk of his reputation by burying his knee in blokes who bravely backed into the pack!
Bell has so much Kouta about him it is uncanny.
Kouta wasn't the best player in his early days and I feel Bell is the same.
Other than having a nut sack, he is nothing like Kouta.
Agree.
Bell might have game sense of a young kouta (ie not much) but athletically, besides the broad shoulders and a similar head, there is little in common between the 2.
If we are a serious side this year, either Bell needs to improve more this year than he has in his complete time in the system, or he needs to be overtaken in our best 22.
Or we use structures that complement Bell's strengths and cover his weaknesses.
His strengths are his size, and ability to get tackled with the ball. Now sure what structures allow him to prosper.
His kicking is average. He awareness is about as bad as it gets in the AFL and he doesn't do enough without the ball to justify this.
The only way we can take advantage of this is to handball it directly to his opponent so that he can then run through that opponent. With a bit of luck, his opponent gets injured/taken off.
Not very practical.
Do you ever listen to opposition players and coaches talk about how we play?
They usually express surprise that our game plan does not seek to minimise and/or neutralise turnovers.
Bell is one bloke who actually gets the footy and if the million dollar man can't take advantage of that, we need to replace the coach, not the player.
Get your head out of the sand and try to look at the big picture rather than writing off one bloke who is having a go.
Whats happening tonight?
Do you ever listen to opposition players and coaches talk about how we play?
They usually express surprise that our game plan does not seek to minimise and/or neutralise turnovers.
Bell is one bloke who actually gets the footy and if the million dollar man can't take advantage of that, we need to replace the coach, not the player.
Get your head out of the sand and try to look at the big picture rather than writing off one bloke who is having a go.
Firstly, not sure what opposition coaches have to do with this.
Secondly, do you see how you are contradicting yourself?
Why don't we minimise turnovers?
...because we play players who constantly turn the ball over!
Coaches are surprised that we play players that turn the ball over!!!
So Bell can't kick and thats turned into a Mick Malthouse issue now? We playing that game tonight?
My issue is not with Bell as a person and what he gives out on the field. My issue is that generally he is counterproductive to the teams success. Just like Robinson before him, both give all they've got, but skillwise left a lot to be desired. No point creating turnovers if you make turnovers. Does anyone think opposition coaches get worried when they see the team sheet and see Bell listed on it?
I understand the need for physical players to be out there and help win the hard ball. That does not mean we play players who cannot perform basic parts of the game.
As with Casboult. No point having a FF who can't kick goals. He needs to learn how to kick and demand a spot in the side. He has improved his kicking, as well as fitness and marking.
In regards to Bell, No point having a midfielder who can't find a teammate. He needs to learn how to kick, and not get tackled to demand a spot in the side. If he cannot, then bring in someone like Cripps to take his spot. At worst, bring back Army who offers the same traits as Bell just in a smaller package, but he's a better kick.
I thought I was too old to understand modern day footy but it seems that other folk are way behind. ::)
What became clear from this first batch of games, is that we were CLEARLY the worst performed team (Hawks were in it up to their necks 'til 3/4 time) & we CLEARLY have little or no depth......bring on season 2015!!!
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz................
WCE was virtually at full strength and we had most of our top players out. When the Swans were in premiership mode under Roos, they were hopeless in the NAB Cup as Roos rested his stars. Didn't seem to hold them back in the season proper.
Yeah have to agree, I thought it was a good effort from pretty much our reserves side with a few senior players. NAB Cup Schmab Cup anyway means sweet FA, I have no doubt our boys will be ready to roll against the Tiges come round 1.
WCE was virtually at full strength and we had most of our top players out. When the Swans were in premiership mode under Roos, they were hopeless in the NAB Cup as Roos rested his stars. Didn't seem to hold them back in the season proper.
Agreed, name any side in the comp which after removing the top 10 or so players from the list - and the core of the midfield - would have a hope in hell against a full strength afl midfield/side.
At this point, I think we need to be happy that our boys are coming through the games unscathed, and that a few lessons are being learned and thats about it.
Sure, I would love for one of our budding key position players to take a game by the scruff of the neck and kick 12 goals, but the last time that happened in a nothing pre season game, was 1999-2000 and it was Fev, and even he took a few years to become a gun of the competition.
At this point, I think we need to be happy that our boys are coming through the games unscathed, and that a few lessons are being learned and thats about it.
Those boys need to get up to speed and perform as quickly as possible against real opponents, because before last weekend we already had the longest injury list in the AFL! :o
Plus the MARs and journeymen among them are not kids, they have been playing senior football for a number of years, as a result they don't get time to toughen up!
For me Liam Jones is a real worry. They have talked him up and talked him up, "The Beast" the dubbed him at training, yet the first real game he plays it's the "same old - same old" he dished up at the Bulldogs.
You need some thug in you to succeed at AFL level, being a super-talent or a super-athlete is not enough. It's athletic thugs like Hodge, Brown, the Scotts and Voss that really leave their mark on the game!
Given our flaky form, Id rather lose now and win later, but thats a side point.
Re-joining the discussion about Tom Bell.
The comparisons to Kouta are starting to be a little bit of doing Kouta an injustic.
Kouta at Bell's stage of Developement, Had just completed 22 games of the 1994 season. Bell is a handy player, but he is 4 cm off Kouta's height, and having come from a high jump background, Kouta had a size advantage over most other midfielders in the comp, and he also had a leap which meant he could compete against the games key position players and then hurth them going the other way.
Bell is 4 cm SHORTER than Kouta. Combine that with the fact that the average mid is a bigger unit these days, and the fact that this is true of all key position players also, then Bell is effectively less capable of dominating like Kouta did, and its not fair on Bell to actually make that comparison either as he doesnt have a similar playing field. Kouta was an athletic freak before the competition became dominated by athletes. This puts Bell further behind the 8 ball.
Give him some time, but maybe temper the enthusiasm and expectations. If he has a handy career, thats good enough for me but the question remains, is it good enough for Carlton??
Give him some time, but maybe temper the enthusiasm and expectations. If he has a handy career, thats good enough for me but the question remains, is it good enough for Carlton??
In my opinion, his best will never be "good enough" for us given where we are at. We are the turn over merchants of the AFL, the sooner we rid the highest and most prolific contributors in this department, we will always be this. Teams set up against knowing full well we will inevitably just hand the ball back to them on a platter. This was evident again on Friday against WC. But its just NAB cup so it doesn't matter, rnd 1 everything will be just dandy.
For me Liam Jones is a real worry. They have talked him up and talked him up, "The Beast" the dubbed him at training, yet the first real game he plays it's the "same old - same old" he dished up at the Bulldogs.
Yep - he was bloody terrible. Put a Bulldogs guernsey on him & you'd have EXACTLY the same player from 12 months ago. What a chance to stand tall & make an impact in an under-manned squad, no effect offensively or defensively.....terrible.
Tom Bell is fast becoming the most over-rated player at Carlton. If I hear one more bloody Kouta-comparison, I will spew up.
Amuses me when poeple say: "It's only a pre-season game" when we lose, yet if we win that same game, suddenly the season proper can't come quickly enough..... :D
For me Liam Jones is a real worry. They have talked him up and talked him up, "The Beast" the dubbed him at training, yet the first real game he plays it's the "same old - same old" he dished up at the Bulldogs.
Yep - he was bloody terrible. Put a Bulldogs guernsey on him & you'd have EXACTLY the same player from 12 months ago. What a chance to stand tall & make an impact in an under-manned squad, no effect offensively or defensively.....terrible.
Tom Bell is fast becoming the most over-rated player at Carlton. If I hear one more bloody Kouta-comparison, I will spew up.
Amuses me when poeple say: "It's only a pre-season game" when we lose, yet if we win that same game, suddenly the season proper can't come quickly enough..... :D
It is only the pre-season but we all know we were watching one of our worst performances in recent times. We should not judge our newbies too quickly as the only way to truly gauge their performance will be to see what they contribute to our best 22. From what I saw last Friday Jacksh will be the only player that gets the chance to do so.
Amuses me when poeple say: "It's only a pre-season game" when we lose, yet if we win that same game, suddenly the season proper can't come quickly enough..... :D
I learnt long ago not to get too excited either way.
^^
Me too.
The only thing worth taking out of the game (I thought) was to wonder how good our team will be in 4 years time, and what our team looks like without its top end talent, and unless we recruit well or these guys all start coming on in leaps and bounds, I wouldnt be getting too excited about our future either way.
Yep, Tutt and Jones owe the CFC big time and their future efforts need to be far superior to the shiessen dished up on Saturday.
Amuses me when poeple say: "It's only a pre-season game" when we lose, yet if we win that same game, suddenly the season proper can't come quickly enough..... :D
I learnt long ago not to get too excited either way.
There's no other way to look at them.
Anyone that makes any major judgements either way really doesn't appreciate the 'variables' of pre-season
There are so many factors involved that impact on performance.
Hmm, I am inclined to agree - to a degree.
But it is a concern if the Forward line could not get goals, if there were not avenues to goal!
If one wins Pre-Season I will join your ho-hum chorus, but losing brings some anxiety.
Hmm, I am inclined to agree - to a degree.
But it is a concern if the Forward line could not get goals, if there were not avenues to goal!
If one wins Pre-Season I will join your ho-hum chorus, but losing brings some anxiety.
If our midfield is providing forward moves then our forwards will have more opportunities for goals.
Now with Gibbs, Murphy and Judd in the middle there is immediately an increase in the number of opportunities our forwards will get.
Add a quality forward like Henderson to be on the receiving end and to take the main defender then all of a sudden your Jones, Casboult and Watson receive lesser defenders....add a bit of mid/ small forward spark like Menzel ....then add a Thomas and an Everitt to top it up and that goal problem suddenly isn't as great as it may have appeared on Friday night.
@Lods
Agree. How anyone could adversely judge the performance of our forward division if we didn't field an effective midfield that could deliver quality ball is puzzling. Even if we'd have had Hendo in the team last Fri he would unlikely have made a lot of difference IMO.
I didn't see the game, what was their workrate like? (which isn't necessarily a good indicator at this time of year either but could be what the problem some people have is)
Please change the thread title lol
Please change the thread title lol
3 DAYS AGO ;)
Fair point :D
It wasn't the intention of the OP to make this the match thread it just kind of kind of morphed into it.
Just in future whoever makes the first post after a match starts feel free to start a new 'game' thread so we get the distinction....it's useful when looking back on games
I didn't see the game, what was their workrate like? (which isn't necessarily a good indicator at this time of year either but could be what the problem some people have is)
I actually thought our workrate was pretty good, just not enough class to get around WCE' senior players IMO.
I didn't see the game, what was their workrate like? (which isn't necessarily a good indicator at this time of year either but could be what the problem some people have is)
I actually thought our workrate was pretty good, just not enough class to get around WCE' senior players IMO.
Got smashed in the centre bounces.
Eagles too strong on the inside.
I didn't see the game, what was their workrate like? (which isn't necessarily a good indicator at this time of year either but could be what the problem some people have is)
I actually thought our workrate was pretty good, just not enough class to get around WCE' senior players IMO.
I agree and that's just due to a lack of experience. Take out an equivalent 11 WC senior players and we probably win. Some people need to relax and accept the pre season for what it is.
Remember 2005 we won the premiership in the pre season? Collected the spoon in season proper.
2007 night premiers and finished 15th.
I think u will find Bell a much better footballer with the likes of Murph ,Gibbs and Judd around him for him to dish off to and be told what to do,than you will with the likes of graham and the other younger group around him,the likes of Judd etc will make the likes of Cripps and co much better footballers with there talk and experience,that's why the likes of the hawks,swans and Geelong can bring young blokes into there side and they immediatly have an impact.The more experienced players know when to go and when to block,and will more often than not be there for a link up player for the likes of Cripps and Bell.If u don't think it would be easier to play along side the likes of Judd,Gibbs ,Murph,Thomas etc than it is alongside young blokes that have never or hardly played at this level u know nothing about footy.Bell will be okay so will Cripps just give them a break they are Carlton.
Like it or not at least it's my opinion.
^^^^^^
Well said. :)
I think u will find Bell a much better footballer with the likes of Murph ,Gibbs and Judd around him for him to dish off to and be told what to do,than you will with the likes of graham and the other younger group around him,the likes of Judd etc will make the likes of Cripps and co much better footballers with there talk and experience,that's why the likes of the hawks,swans and Geelong can bring young blokes into there side and they immediatly have an impact.The more experienced players know when to go and when to block,and will more often than not be there for a link up player for the likes of Cripps and Bell.If u don't think it would be easier to play along side the likes of Judd,Gibbs ,Murph,Thomas etc than it is alongside young blokes that have never or hardly played at this level u know nothing about footy.Bell will be okay so will Cripps just give them a break they are Carlton.
Like it or not at least it's my opinion.
Your opinion makes a lot more sense than those expressed by some other folk.
I think u will find Bell a much better footballer with the likes of Murph ,Gibbs and Judd around him for him to dish off to and be told what to do,than you will with the likes of graham and the other younger group around him,the likes of Judd etc will make the likes of Cripps and co much better footballers with there talk and experience,that's why the likes of the hawks,swans and Geelong can bring young blokes into there side and they immediatly have an impact.The more experienced players know when to go and when to block,and will more often than not be there for a link up player for the likes of Cripps and Bell.If u don't think it would be easier to play along side the likes of Judd,Gibbs ,Murph,Thomas etc than it is alongside young blokes that have never or hardly played at this level u know nothing about footy.Bell will be okay so will Cripps just give them a break they are Carlton.
Like it or not at least it's my opinion.
Good post Slugger.
Good to see somebody actually thinking about the game instead of trying to pick all the faults.
Meh I disagree with slugger. We've seen Bell with those blokes around him and he's still the same. Judd and Murphy do not improve his decision making or his disposal.
Meh I disagree with slugger. We've seen Bell with those blokes around him and he's still the same. Judd and Murphy do not improve his decision making or his disposal.
Tend to agree, he needs to give off the ball by hand to the better decision makers/users....
His nous for playing the game has not improved....bumps when he should tackle and takes on players like he would have at junior level where he had a size
advantage most weeks but that wont work at senior level...
Judd has been mentoring him but that hasnt worked...time for a change...
Meh I disagree with slugger. We've seen Bell with those blokes around him and he's still the same. Judd and Murphy do not improve his decision making or his disposal.
Tend to agree, he needs to give off the ball by hand to the better decision makes/users....
His nous for playing the game has not improved....bumps when he should tackle and takes on players like he would have at junior level where he had a size
advantage most weeks but that wont work at senior level...
Judd has been mentoring him but that hasnt worked...time for a change...
Agree, he tries hard and occasionally does something OK but he's just not a smart player - we need better, especially looking to the future.
Meh I disagree with slugger. We've seen Bell with those blokes around him and he's still the same. Judd and Murphy do not improve his decision making or his disposal.
Tend to agree, he needs to give off the ball by hand to the better decision makes/users....
His nous for playing the game has not improved....bumps when he should tackle and takes on players like he would have at junior level where he had a size
advantage most weeks but that wont work at senior level...
Judd has been mentoring him but that hasnt worked...time for a change...
Agree, he tries hard and occasionally does something OK but he's just not a smart player - we need better, especially looking to the future.
Obviously, i also agree.
If Bell needs other players to make him look good then that more than enough about Bells abilities.
The biggest problem with Bell is that he is essentially, a slow thinker/reader of play. He should take the first option and kick it at least a few steps earlier. By the time he reads what is going on...its too late.
Yep
The role Bell plays is really not too dependent on players around him.
It's his job to get the ball and get it out or pass it on...
He has no trouble getting the ball......the fact that his decision making and disposal is the issue for most of us means that unless he can correct it he will always be the subject of criticism.
That's not influenced to a great extent by other players.
Having said that...I haven't given up on him.
A bit of improvement and he could be a real asset for us
See ball!
Get ball!
Give off ball - pdq!
I remember loving Luke Rhino O'Sullivan because he was so strong. Injury shortened his career, but apart from his great strength and power, Rhino lacked skill.
Love the way Tom bangs his weight around too. Not sure about his skill set, and he should work on that in the Twos rather than take a spot where we need Premiership Points
I reckon Rhino had a pretty lethal left boot there Phillip!
I think u will find Bell a much better footballer with the likes of Murph ,Gibbs and Judd around him for him to dish off to and be told what to do,than you will with the likes of graham and the other younger group around him,the likes of Judd etc will make the likes of Cripps and co much better footballers with there talk and experience,that's why the likes of the hawks,swans and Geelong can bring young blokes into there side and they immediatly have an impact.The more experienced players know when to go and when to block,and will more often than not be there for a link up player for the likes of Cripps and Bell.If u don't think it would be easier to play along side the likes of Judd,Gibbs ,Murph,Thomas etc than it is alongside young blokes that have never or hardly played at this level u know nothing about footy.Bell will be okay so will Cripps just give them a break they are Carlton.
Like it or not at least it's my opinion.
Cripps will be a jet, Bell will not. Its that simple.
Meh I disagree with slugger. We've seen Bell with those blokes around him and he's still the same. Judd and Murphy do not improve his decision making or his disposal.
Spot on
I think that Bell should be played me on the outside to take advantage of his running. Maybe on a wing or high HF?
All those of you who judge Bell - hang your heads in abject shame.
He's 23yo and HAS PLAYED 29 senior games. TWENTY NINE. ONLY.
the SIMPLE RULE IS THAT IT TAKES most players 75 games + to find their feet at the top level.
Seriously, arm chair critics in over drive......
from memory he didn't even play afl as a kid?
All those of you who judge Bell - hang your heads in abject shame.
He's 23yo and HAS PLAYED 29 senior games. TWENTY NINE. ONLY.
the SIMPLE RULE IS THAT IT TAKES most players 75 games + to find their feet at the top level.
Seriously, arm chair critics in over drive......
from memory he didn't even play afl as a kid?
I won't hang MY head in shame and I stick by what I say about Bell - too bad if you don't happen to like it.
Lot of the discussion about Bell may be the result of him being so prominant. He, along with Tuohy led the disposal count for Carlton with 19 each. So yes, he got caught a few times and turned it over, but he was making it to each contest and winning the footy for us. There were a few players whose touches were in the single figures and have not received quite the same attention here.
He is developing and he has not played a lot of footy, but he has some good attributes and works hard. Plenty of upside I think, and I look forward to him getting better over the year.
All those of you who judge Bell - hang your heads in abject shame.
He's 23yo and HAS PLAYED 29 senior games. TWENTY NINE. ONLY.
the SIMPLE RULE IS THAT IT TAKES most players 75 games + to find their feet at the top level.
Seriously, arm chair critics in over drive......
from memory he didn't even play afl as a kid?
Settle down tiger, everyone is entitled to an opinion. People call it as they see it, far too many over inflate the abilities of our players. You want an honest appraisal of him and others on our list? Talk to other teams supporters, we are simply not rated highly at all and its players like Bell and Graham (to use 2 examples who many are pinning their hopes on) who perpetuate this opinion. Just as an example, I have two good mates who are supporters of other clubs who have wives that are Carlton supporters. They both go to their teams as well as Carlton games most weeks to appease their better halves. Whilst they have soft spots Carlton, they don't rate our list at all apart from a few players here and there. An its very interesting that they both point out very similar things in relation to particular players. In any case, we will always have our own opinions, thats what forums like this are for. As I have always said, would love nothing more than to be proven wrong by players who I dont rate.
No question each of us is entitled to an opinion - but some opinions are simply daft....
;) ;)
Every player has strengths and weaknesses, problem is we always focus on weaknesses. You then weigh up the overall package and see what the overall value is. He's off the rookie list so he's more likely not going to be a perfect footballer.
Let's try looking at Bell's strength's too. That strength and power around the ball is invaluable and well as his ability to intimidate with his strength. That's something we always need.
I think we all know very well about his strengths. Realistically he needs to improve. No harm in this, he can make the grade, and if he can lift his average stats a bit in terms of getting and giving the pill as well as lowering his turnover/clanger count that will go a long way to us being a better side, and his standing in the game being higher.
Currently a bloke 3 years in the caper going at an average of about 15 disposals a match, and making 2.5 of those clangers a game isnt exactly setting the world on fire.
Im happy to give him time, even Simmo didnt get a touch for his first 3 games so it has no bearing on where he will end up, but its fair to say that the average punter is getting exasperated by the lack of progress in his ability rather than anything else.
Every player has strengths and weaknesses, problem is we always focus on weaknesses. You then weigh up the overall package and see what the overall value is. He's off the rookie list so he's more likely not going to be a perfect footballer.
Let's try looking at Bell's strength's too. That strength and power around the ball is invaluable and well as his ability to intimidate with his strength. That's something we always need.
You can have all the strength and power around the ball you like, if you then get the agot and hand it over to the other mob more often than not, you become as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.
Doing something really effective with the ball the majority of the time is one major thing that really marks out a good player IMO. It's a given in my book that every CFC player should be able to get to the ball and win it.
No question each of us is entitled to an opinion - but some opinions are simply daft....
;) ;)
And all yours are on the money boy who can fly??? :P ^-^
Opinions aren't necessarily right nor wrong......they're just opinions!!! That's just my opinion......
Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one and most of them stink! :P
No question each of us is entitled to an opinion - but some opinions are simply daft....
;) ;)
And all yours are on the money boy who can fly??? :P ^-^
Opinions aren't necessarily right nor wrong......they're just opinions!!! That's just my opinion......
Opinions which agree with mine are right, the others are obviously wrong ;D
And don't try to confuse me with facts when I've made up my mind! ^-^
Even when I'm wrong, I'm right. :P
Every player has strengths and weaknesses, problem is we always focus on weaknesses. You then weigh up the overall package and see what the overall value is. He's off the rookie list so he's more likely not going to be a perfect footballer.
Let's try looking at Bell's strength's too. That strength and power around the ball is invaluable and well as his ability to intimidate with his strength. That's something we always need.
You can have all the strength and power around the ball you like, if you then get the agot and hand it over to the other mob more often than not, you become as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.
Or on the other hand you don't get the aggot then you're going no-where. You're essentially saying he turns it over 100% of the time. We know that's wrong. He'd probably still have disposal efficiency pushing 70%, not that i've ever looked, which may be a little less than some others but first and foremost, to do anything with it you must actually get the ball. Very basic that part. They ball turn it over, just some more than others. You never see 100% disposal efficiency from anyone. Probably struggle to see many go over high 70s. Like I said, it's about weighing up strengths and weaknesses to determine value, not just weaknesses. Prefer Bell at a contest than a more skilful softc0ck.
Doesn't get the ball enough to warrant that I'm afraid.
Average of 15 disposals a game is borderline not good enough.
All those of you who judge Bell - hang your heads in abject shame.
He's 23yo and HAS PLAYED 29 senior games. TWENTY NINE. ONLY.
the SIMPLE RULE IS THAT IT TAKES most players 75 games + to find their feet at the top level.
Seriously, arm chair critics in over drive......
from memory he didn't even play afl as a kid?
It took Bryce Gibbs however many games to find his feet at AFL level, but it was clear from day 1 that he had the tools required to make it. The only question mark over him was if he had the determination.
Ditto Murphy, Yarran...Garlett.
The problem with Bell is, there are too many issues with his overall game. Some of which can be worked on. Others, like simple game awareness can not.
You can teach players to run, kick (kinda) mark and do everything else, but you can't teach a player to use his eyes. To be aware of his surroundings.
For the record, i'm not saying he can't add some value to the team in the right situation, i'm saying that he is certainly far from being Anthony Koutoufides....and borderline best 22 in an average side.
Every player has strengths and weaknesses, problem is we always focus on weaknesses. You then weigh up the overall package and see what the overall value is. He's off the rookie list so he's more likely not going to be a perfect footballer.
Let's try looking at Bell's strength's too. That strength and power around the ball is invaluable and well as his ability to intimidate with his strength. That's something we always need.
You can have all the strength and power around the ball you like, if you then get the agot and hand it over to the other mob more often than not, you become as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.
Or on the other hand you don't get the aggot then you're going no-where. You're essentially saying he turns it over 100% of the time. We know that's wrong. He'd probably still have disposal efficiency pushing 70%, not that i've ever looked, which may be a little less than some others but first and foremost, to do anything with it you must actually get the ball. Very basic that part. They ball turn it over, just some more than others. You never see 100% disposal efficiency from anyone. Probably struggle to see many go over high 70s. Like I said, it's about weighing up strengths and weaknesses to determine value, not just weaknesses. Prefer Bell at a contest than a more skilful softc0ck.
Ok I'll give you the stats. Last year, his disposal efficiency was 63.4%, thats ranked 28th at the club. I also looked at his disposals at calculated what % were contested, 41% ranked 11th. So he gets contested ball but doesn't do well with it compared to 31 of his team mates.
Just out of interest, what DE was required to rank in the top ten at the club?
Just out of interest, what DE was required to rank in the top ten at the club?
Top 10 were
Michael Jamison 85.8
Andrejs Everitt 81.5
Dylan Buckley 80.4
Sam Rowe 79.4
Lachie Henderson 77.1
Kade Simpson 76.7
Dennis Armfield 76.3
Andrew Carrazzo 76.2
Heath Scotland 76
Matthew Watson 75.6
Just out of interest, what DE was required to rank in the top ten at the club?
Top 10 were
Michael Jamison 85.8
Andrejs Everitt 81.5
Dylan Buckley 80.4
Sam Rowe 79.4
Lachie Henderson 77.1
Kade Simpson 76.7
Dennis Armfield 76.3
Andrew Carrazzo 76.2
Heath Scotland 76
Matthew Watson 75.6
No Judd, Gibbs, Thomas or Murphy in that lot.....thats four of our prime movers and we wonder why our forwards cant get hold of the footy....
Just out of interest, what DE was required to rank in the top ten at the club?
Top 10 were
Michael Jamison 85.8
Andrejs Everitt 81.5
Dylan Buckley 80.4
Sam Rowe 79.4
Lachie Henderson 77.1
Kade Simpson 76.7
Dennis Armfield 76.3
Andrew Carrazzo 76.2
Heath Scotland 76
Matthew Watson 75.6
No Judd, Gibbs, Thomas or Murphy in that lot.....thats four of our prime movers and we wonder why our forwards cant get hold of the footy....
Thomas 14th 72.8
MM 18th 71
CJ 21st 67.7
BG 22nd 67.5
Just out of interest, what DE was required to rank in the top ten at the club?
Top 10 were
Michael Jamison 85.8
Andrejs Everitt 81.5
Dylan Buckley 80.4
Sam Rowe 79.4
Lachie Henderson 77.1
Kade Simpson 76.7
Dennis Armfield 76.3
Andrew Carrazzo 76.2
Heath Scotland 76
Matthew Watson 75.6
No Judd, Gibbs, Thomas or Murphy in that lot.....thats four of our prime movers and we wonder why our forwards cant get hold of the footy....
Thomas 14th 72.8
MM 18th 71
CJ 21st 67.7
BG 22nd 67.5
Interesting... I guess these figures are also skewed by games played......maybe a 10 game minimum qualification would obviously change the rankings..
Judd and Gibbs won most of their ball under pressure last year so that figures. Murphy gets a little more outside ball so that's probably where the difference is between the three. Defenders tend to have the best DE as a lot of their kicks go across the ground to uncontested targets.
Judd and Gibbs won most of their ball under pressure last year so that figures. Murphy gets a little more outside ball so that's probably where the difference is between the three. Defenders tend to have the best DE as a lot of their kicks go across the ground to uncontested targets.
Fair points..I guess a direct comparison say with our top mids vs the Hawks, Port, Sydney top mids would be a better way of comparing like for like...
Judd and Gibbs won most of their ball under pressure last year so that figures. Murphy gets a little more outside ball so that's probably where the difference is between the three. Defenders tend to have the best DE as a lot of their kicks go across the ground to uncontested targets.
Under the new rules Judd and Gibbs will get pinged for holding the ball in 2015.
Of course it depends who you are and who you play for, if Hodge gets caught/rundown I gather it's still a play on! :o
Judd and Gibbs won most of their ball under pressure last year so that figures. Murphy gets a little more outside ball so that's probably where the difference is between the three. Defenders tend to have the best DE as a lot of their kicks go across the ground to uncontested targets.
Under the new rules Judd and Gibbs will get pinged for holding the ball in 2015.
Of course it depends who you are and who you play for, if Hodge gets caught/rundown I gather it's still a play on! :o
Oi? Don't you criticise St Hodgey!
Judd and Gibbs won most of their ball under pressure last year so that figures. Murphy gets a little more outside ball so that's probably where the difference is between the three. Defenders tend to have the best DE as a lot of their kicks go across the ground to uncontested targets.
Under the new rules Judd and Gibbs will get pinged for holding the ball in 2015.
Of course it depends who you are and who you play for, if Hodge gets caught/rundown I gather it's still a play on! :o
Is that the one called "The Hodge Corollary"?