Carlton Supporters Club

Last week's party was a wake, even though we did show some decent signs.
I hate that. Richmond lost last night because Adelaide were that bit more mature and could respond better when challenged. That is what I want us to be: able to respond when challenged.

Richmond is also know for their fanatic pressure. That is another thing I want us to be known for.

So this week, the winner is ...

Jump into this thread now folks.

Go your hardest...I'm struggling to find a positive.
We'll lock the "In game" thread in five minutes.

So this week, the winner is ...

Football!

Good things to come out of Rnd 2, the media are proven right again, KPFs are dead!

Thankfully it's straight back to work Monday and I can forget about it. Doh!

PS; And this weekend we get an extra hour!

PS PS; Wow, that game was so bad it killed this forum!

We stunk. Hard to see us winning many games with a bunch of spindly kids who can't tackle. Fumbles, missed kicks and little leadership.

I'm baffled. Where is this club going?

Weitering...stays back (Marchbank/ Weitering -CHB FB)
Jones...roving back /follower (he's too loose to play one on one but he does provide contest and effort)
Casboult forward...not to ruck...to be replaced by McKay or Kerr sooner rather than later.
Persist with Silvagni
If Kreuzer's not available Lobbe or Phillips must come in.

Bolton's honeymoon is over.

If a Carlton player handed out a front on bump like Bowes did on Weitering they'd be calling for a report, in fact he'd probably be reported on the spot!

Bowes left the ground and elbowed Weitering in the face front on!

We'll probably get fined for putting a concussed player back on the ground, that's the way it rolls for us!

If Caddy gets a week for a shizen spoil, what does Bowes get for doing a Jack Ziebell?

Well that was disgraceful. Everything went wrong - Kreuzer out, poor team selection, no intensity, appalling disposal matched only by our ability to fumble on the occasions disposals went to the target and bad umpiring.

I wasn't expecting a flag in 2018 but we played like the u12's today with our kick and hope strategy and everyone on the ball tactics. Skills weren't much better either.

Where was the attacking brand we were told was coming?

Bolton's honeymoon is over.

x2

At least it wont cost a fortune when the club eventually sack him.......

I am not sure if I am joking or not :-[ :-[ :-[

I am not sure if I am joking or not :-[ :-[ :-[

It's Carlton, we shouldn't joke about these things!

It doesn't necessarily mean he can't turn it around...but he doesn't get the free pass anymore.
The blowtorch is on!

We better start the Rnd 3 Pre-game thread.

I'm tipping there will be 90+ at that game, and I'm not talking thousands!

Weitering...stays back (Marchbank/ Weitering -CHB FB)
Jones...roving back /follower (he's too loose to play one on one but he does provide contest and effort)
Casboult forward...not to ruck...to be replaced by McKay or Kerr sooner rather than later.
Persist with Silvagni
If Kreuzer's not available Lobbe or Phillips must come in.

Bolton's honeymoon is over.

McKay had a good one with the NB's today as did Silvagni. Whoever's there of the two, Levi or Harry, has to help Kreuzer ruck though. Levi's rucking has improved alot, as he showed last week, but he is still a back up forward/ruck. Whoever had the dumb idea to let him be the only ruck needs shooting.

Still, with the lack of workrate, urgency, effort, which leads to poor skills, the ruck was the least of our problems. Have all those other aspects right like last week and you'd barely notice getting smashed in the ruck.

Given it's the 3rd year that's the most disappointing loss since Bolton took over as we now, rightly. expect so much more.

It's Carlton, we shouldn't joke about these things!

I know that's what worries me so much, we make progress, we fark up, we start sacking dudes , and we start again. Sounds like St Kilda..... :-X

It's early, I'm just full of angst. I just want to see progress that's all.

The two most disappointing things for me were:
1. Poor effort (at least to me it looked poor);
2. Senior Players Impact.
Thoughts on the above?

It doesn't necessarily mean he can't turn it around...but he doesn't get the free pass anymore.
The blowtorch is on!

Yes, Bolts has to learn we expect alot more now. Not necessarily the 8, just alot more.

Whoever's there of the two, Levi or Harry, has to help Kreuzer ruck though.

That's a massive assumption, that SpecialK only misses a week!

The two most disappointing things for me were:
1. Poor effort (at least to me it looked poor);
2. Senior Players Impact.
Thoughts on the above?

It's hard to limit it to just 2 disappointments today. Complete team wide and systematic failure.

Rather that AFL what disappointing try to think of something positive. I can't (maybe Charlie doing his thing again)

We were lucky it was only against GC. A better opposition would have made that a 100+ point loss.

That's a massive assumption, that SpecialK only misses a week!

He was obviously close this week so let's hope.

The two most disappointing things for me were:
1. Poor effort (at least to me it looked poor);
2. Senior Players Impact.
Thoughts on the above?

Intensity and effort was definitely down.

Murphy was disappointing but he'll be the captain until next year when Docherty should take over.
Simmo was Simmo...he's trying to do the Docherty role but nowhere near as effective.
I thought Daisy had a fair game...a few mistakes but effort and contest was better than most.

Yes, Bolts has to learn we expect alot more now. Not necessarily the 8, just alot more.

I don't have high expectations in 2018. And that still fell well short.

I at at least expect basic skills like kicking and hand passing to targets most of the time and we couldn't even do that today.

He was obviously close this week so let's hope.

No he wasn't, there is no way we planned to play McKay and Phillips in Craigieburn if Kreuzer was seriously selected to play or possibly playing.

Kreuzer was never going to play, that's why both McKay and Phillips played in Craigieburn.

No he wasn't, there is no way we planned to play McKay and Phillips in Craigieburn if Kreuzer was seriously selected to play.

Kreuzer was never going to play, that's why both McKay and Phillips played in Craigeburn.

How would you know that? He was withdrawn only today. If we knew he was out before today they'd surely have someone ready to go. Think that obvious. Anyway, that was the least of our issues. We could've had Ivan Drago from Rocky in the ruck and it wouldn't have help given out lack of effort.

How would you know that? He was withdrawn only today. If we knew he was out before today they'd surely have someone ready to go. Think that obvious.

Seriously Laj, you're telling me we are that disorganised as a club that we sent our only two other rucks to Craigieburn for a VFL practise match just 4hrs before we played, one of them named as an emergency for today's game?

It was never the plan to play either of them, and Kreuzer was never going to play, that's how Polson ended up in the squad!

That is why today is so bad, it was planned that way, this is how we planned to deal with the loss of Kreuzer!

Anyway, that was the least of our issues. We could've had Ivan Drago from Rocky in the ruck and it wouldn't have help given out lack of effort.

They couldn't have been any worse than what was offered up!

Your man is cooked Laj, it's not even worth mentioning his name!

Brendan Bolton: discuss.

How bad is woeful......we went far beyond either.....

One of the worst games i've ever been to in terms of performance and atmosphere.

Brendan Bolton: discuss.

It's probably unfair to blame this just on Bolton, this is a failing of the MC in it's entirety!

I feel like we are Nostradamus, because a lot of us felt this coming as soon as Kreuzer was injured, we had seen Witts form in the wet, we knew on this thread what would happen to Charlie if he was left solo up forward, and how someone else would go against a serious in form ruckmen, none of the sane forum members wanted Weitering out of defence, and the sad thing is that with nine days to plan it all what we saw today was the best our MC can offer!

I suppose we'll start blaming SOS and his draft picks now, we can axe a few more and have them leave to become players elsewhere, while we start from fresh again adding lots of new depth!

What is that called, the Merry-Go-Round!

They obviously didn't rate Witts, and that bit them very hard, especially when they went to the desperate stakes of Jones in the ruck in the last. Maybe could have rolled that dice when Lynch had kicked his fifth......

I have been solid behind Bolton, but he only ever uses the same corporate double speak week in week out, "trust the process", "green shoots", "learning their craft".....

There is no imagination, Weitering is almost a shot duck, the Jones experiment is over, Byrne is injured again, the second hand players (Mullet/O'Shea) had use by dates at previous clubs, and why we didn't play a tall for Kreuser is beyond me, almost sackable >:(

The lack of skill, the decision making, the fumbling.....OMFG.

The shift in Bolton is simply this....
No longer can we just accept the  "we're on the right course...green shoots"... and all that
Now comes the time where he is judged by results and judgements.
...and really that's as it should be.

It's how our coaches have always been judged.

Come on folks. Today was shizen. Last week was better. Maybe we should wait until the bye before sticking the boot in ? The team is like the Foreign Legion - give them some time to gel first. And having two of our best inside players out didn't help.

Bolton's record is worse than Malthouse's. 13 wins from 46 games.

Come on folks. Today was shizen. Last week was better. Maybe we should wait until the bye before sticking the boot in ? The team is like the Foreign Legion - give them some time to gel first. And having two of our best inside players out didn't help.

We change that much of our playing list each post season it's like flipping a coin, sooner or later someone has to take some responsibility!

This idea that picks are worth players is rubbish logic, and we are not learning that at all! We are in a horrible situation where the only players we have of any worth are likely to be traded for a very slim chance at something better.

The good players we retain are left demoralised by the rubbish that surrounds them!

Who the feck would want to come to Carlton, money grubbers, the exact sort we do not need!

We change that much of our playing list each post season it's like flipping a coin, sooner or later someone has to take some responsibility!

sooner or later - I say later. This is Bolton's third year. Give him a chance.

I’m over it.  Didn’t get to see the whole game, just the second half (traipsing around to find a bar as we are overseas, that was showing it on tv!) and that was seriously pathetic.

Where has our very basic pressure gone? No tackling or if they were tackling GC were just breaking them no problem. We were hospital passing everywhere.

This was our home game, we had 9 days to get right. One commentator said oh maybe CFC were still feeling the effects of playing Richmond. Seriously? Pathetic.

Cripps was good, Charlie too, Samo and Fisher okay. That’s about it tho, when are we going to have that group of players that stand up and say screw this crap and do something?!

Feel sorry for Weiters, another No 1 that we’ve broken!

sooner or later - I say later. This is Bolton's third year. Give him a chance.

How many years did we give Mick?

Feel sorry for Weiters, another No 1 that we’ve broken!

This is quickly becoming our greatest skill!

Don't fork with the kids, if we want to fork blokes around we've got a legion of old bastards who cannot be further damaged!

So what's likely. McKay in next week, throw him to the wolves, or under a hospital pass which ever comes first!

Sensible part of me says this is only round 2 but not much to hope for. Players looked confused and disorganised from up high. Half back line was a mess with little coordination as the midfield plodded about and Simpson and co hacked it out or burnt team mates with dreadful disposal.

A midfield of smalls that dont spread leaves our better players horribly exposed. And our better players aren't very good. For all the ball ed curnow gets he has little impact on a game, ditto Murphy. Casboult is an embarrassment: utterly clueless in the ruck.  How many seasons has this duffer been at the club?

Its all going wrong at Carlton. 

How many years did we give Mick?

Two and a half. But this is the new Carlton, right ?

Two and a half. But this is the new Carlton, right ?

Nope...It's the same Carlton...and results are demanded

Nope...It's the same Carlton...and results are demanded

Lods, the season is 2 weeks old.

Lods, the season is 2 weeks old.

And Bolton's tenure is two years old.
As I said...he's not done and dusted but he is now very much accountable.

And to say we have Kruezer out or we’ve just lost Gibbs or Doch is out - That should have ZERO bearing on pressure Ffs! You don’t have to be the most elite player but you should always be able to apply pressure! Richmond won a premiership on pressure!!

The amount of times I saw a Number of CFC players stand around while GC scooped up the ball And ran off was pathetic - Not good enough. How is it that Cripps continuously is able To apply pressure but no one else is?

I like Bolts and has faith but I’m over watching that crape

And Bolton's tenure is two years old.
As I said...he's not done and dusted but he is now very much accountable.

So, if for example, we finish last, or bottom 4, you think he should be sacked ?

I've posted before that there are people on the inside that do not want BB to succeed. They see AFL coaching as a right of passage which should be exclusively for past players.

But the AFL want him to succeed, primarily as a method of cost control, because they are very concerned about burgeoning wages for past player / coaches.

If the AFL want BB to succeed they are going a very funny way about it, because we look like a rabble!

PS; The team played today like they had just heard Kreuzer is out for the season!

Lods, the season is 2 weeks old.

And it's over already. Again.

So, if for example, we finish last, or bottom 4, you think he should be sacked ?

I don't think Lods is saying that is what he wants, he's writing about what he thinks might happen, not what he wants to happen!

His logic is sound, we have a history!

The hardest part of fixing the rot is identifying it, it looks like so far we've cut away some fairly healthy timber!

And it's over already. Again.

Over relative to what though ? Playing finals ? That was never an option anyway. I believed that we would finish 13-16, and I stand by that.

Over relative to what though ?

Progress!

If today was our game plan to cover the loss of Kreuzer, it did very very well at exposing Charlie, perhaps he's been identified by the MC as our next Weitering.

It's like the roof is falling, and our only tactic is to keep breaking our best straws to try and fix it!

Poor effort today, I believe started with the selection process. Poulsen hadn't demanded a game at NB's so what would have been the difference in playing MacKay especially as it would have allowed us to similar balance to last week. Kruzer great lost , second efforts and intensity , everything we didn't have today. Based upon the effort today if we have an injury to a key player we are really going find it tough. Lacked leadership, intensity & spirit at times. Weiter, I am at a loss, never seen a player go back ward so quick. Our lack of basic skills was highlighted today, a disorganised rabble. Our inability to create positive forward entries to hit a target is country league standard. Simple skill errors not being able to string together 3-4 disposals made it easy for the the Suns . Our lack of vision when looking for targets must make it hard for any one who is a forward. Jones , is being found out ATM, with his style of play, but with the lack of support , is caught out.

I don't think Lods is saying that is what he wants, he's writing about what he thinks might happen, not what he wants to happen!

His logic is sound, we have a history!

The hardest part of fixing the rot is identifying it, it looks like so far we've cut away some fairly healthy timber!

Then any pretence to the New Carlton is a complete sham, and we should just go back to coaching and playing messiahs, "we are Carlton.........." and giving people the flick after 5 minutes.

Over relative to what though ? Playing finals ? That was never an option anyway. I believed that we would finish 13-16, and I stand by that.

As a supporter I want hope. At least a few big games early in the year that mean something. Not dead rubbers after round 4.

The players wore double black arm bands, has been stated why? Did it affect them perhaps? Not making excuses, just wondering given the lack of intensity team wide.
We had a nice little run at the start of the 3rd, had Cripps have converted that regulation shot, it would have been 9 pts the difference. Instead, GC went bang bang it was back out to 25 pts and game over.

Poor effort today, I believe started with the selection process. Poulsen hadn't demanded a game at NB's so what would have been the difference in playing MacKay especially as it would have allowed us to similar balance to last week. Kruzer great lost , second efforts and intensity , everything we didn't have today. Based upon the effort today if we have an injury to a key player we are really going find it tough. Lacked leadership, intensity & spirit at times. Weiter, I am at a loss, never seen a player go back ward so quick. Our lack of basic skills was highlighted today, a disorganised rabble. Our inability to create positive forward entries to hit a target is country league standard. Simple skill errors not being able to string together 3-4 disposals made it easy for the the Suns . Our lack of vision when looking for targets must make it hard for any one who is a forward. Jones , is being found out ATM, with his style of play, but with the lack of support , is caught out.

Jones' attack on the footy, getting to contests, second efforts, etc., etc., are extraordinary, but he has to mark the pill not just punch it.

If you published a poll on this site about whether Jones was worth a run in the ruck, probably 80% of our members would have said yes. We did that today in the last quarter after the horse had bolted.

I'm not going to talk about what we did instead, but at one stage we tried Weitering and Charlie in the F50 ruck stoppages as well!

Then any pretence to the New Carlton is a complete sham, and we should just go back to coaching and playing messiahs, "we are Carlton.........." and giving people the flick after 5 minutes.

Not five minutes....but three years is more than enough to see some progress.

Over relative to what though ? Playing finals ? That was never an option anyway. I believed that we would finish 13-16, and I stand by that.

If any other coach in our history served up that he would probably be gone.
I like Bolton...I think he's probably a good developer of young talent and a good teacher.
But if other clubs shoot past us.
If other clubs have that hard ruthless winning edge...
Bolton will not survive.
We're not patient enough...life's too short.

At least a few big games early in the year that mean something.

This part hurts, it looked like it meant nothing to most of the team today, they looked vacant!

As a supporter I want hope. At least a few big games early in the year that mean something. Not dead rubbers after round 4.

I won't be worried if we are 0-4, and I certainly won't view games after that as dead rubbers. You and I must have different expectations for this season.

Just got home and very disapponted. We were smashed in the contested ball, our tackling was again awful and our skills were awful. Nothing else of note worth discussing imo.
I won't be going to any more games now until May, for logistical reasons, but atm I feel pretty glad about that.

Not five minutes....but three years is more than enough to see some progress.

If any other coach in our history served up that he would probably be gone.
I like Bolton...I think he's probably a good developer of young talent and a good teacher.
But if other clubs shoot past us.
If other clubs have that hard ruthless winning edge...
Bolton will not survive.
We're not patient enough...life's too short.

I follow Leeds United will see them play next weekend in the UK we had a manager for 31 days last yr 4 different one for the year, so 3 yrs is a little luxury

Not five minutes....but three years is more than enough to see some progress.

If any other coach in our history served up that he would probably be gone.
I like Bolton...I think he's probably a good developer of young talent and a good teacher.
But if other clubs shoot past us.
If other clubs have that hard ruthless winning edge...
Bolton will not survive.
We're not patient enough...life's too short.

4 years is the average length of a players total career, it's 1/2 the length of a good players career and a 3rd of a superstars career.

If you get to 4 years as a coach and the team hasn't progressed, you have wasted the entirety of some AFL careers, statistically you have wasted the full career of about 1/2 your playing list!

No matter who is the coach and what potential they offer, that cannot be tolerated.

It was a game like this against Gold Coast that basically cost Ratten his job!

I won't be worried if we are 0-4, and I certainly won't view games after that as dead rubbers. You and I must have different expectations for this season.

Did you expect to win today?

Did you expect to replace Kreuzer with Polson?

And can I say IMO our defence, which was solid as a rock last year, has looked less than effective in the first two rounds (and the JLT). Defenders seem to be constantly getting caught out of position, are we missing Docherty's on field direction? I would say my bloody oath we are. But we knew he was going to be out for a long time, he is on the sidelines with headphones, why arent they correcting their mistakes?

Not five minutes....but three years is more than enough to see some progress.

If any other coach in our history served up that he would probably be gone.
I like Bolton...I think he's probably a good developer of young talent and a good teacher.
But if other clubs shoot past us.
If other clubs have that hard ruthless winning edge...
Bolton will not survive.
We're not patient enough...life's too short.

But lods, Bolton has just coached his 2nd game in his 3rd season. It's not 3 seasons, it's barely 2.

If we don't give Bolton a fair run, and I mean 5 years as coach, then we are a rubbish organisation that deserves to be skewered and lampooned for all eternity.

Did you expect to win today?

Well can I answer?

I was hoping to win, I wasn't expecting to win, but I wasn't expecting what happened either. It's the way this defeat came about that makes it as bad as a 20+ goals loss!

The lower margin probably says more about the current state of GC than Carlton!

It's not Bolton's fault, we've just got too many ordinary footballers on our list.
It comes from butchering the draft for as long as we did and it will take another two or three years to build our stocks.

It's not Bolton's fault, we've just got too many ordinary footballers on our list.
It comes from butchering the draft for as long as we did and it will take another two or three years to build our stocks.

So it's SOS then, his recruiters, list managers and the rest of the MC.

No?

Even worse for us, when there is opportunity-a-plenty for players in the VFL, Port handed them(our AFL prospects) their ar5e on a platter.

Perhaps they don't want promotion!

Is it too hot in the kitchen for most of our cooks? :o

But lods, Bolton has just coached his 2nd game in his 3rd season. It's not 3 seasons, it's barely 2.

If we don't give Bolton a fair run, and I mean 5 years as coach, then we are a rubbish organisation that deserves to be skewered and lampooned for all eternity.

No judgements will be made by Carlton admin before the end of the season...maybe longer.
But for supporters two years in the job is more than enough for a honeymoon period.
In fact as far as this place goes Bolton has been given a fair run compared to others.
Watch now as the criticism on this forum begins to grow if success doesn't start to happen.
...and that's fair enough.
Folks are starting to question selections and tactics...and that's what drives a discussion group like this one.

Did you expect to win today?

Did you expect to replace Kreuzer with Polson?

I was far from certain about today. Polson for Krooz was crazy.

When everything is said and done, players mission g accounted for etc etc, the end result is this —-

Not good enough effort out there.

That’s what stings - the effort was crap and half hearted.

Selecting Polson,  period.  No K replacement.   No forward or defensive organisation...  Time to ask serious questions of Mr Bolton.  

Not happy Jan.   I didn't expect to win but I thought this crap was behind us.

PS.   We need some hard as nails inside midfielders,  I still would have gone for LDU.   Our midfield  is small and slow.

Mullet is ca ca.  Soft and suspect under any pressure,  but he ain't the lone ranger.

Folks are starting to question selections and tactics...and that's what drives a discussion group like this one.

If you are some kid on an AFL list with 2 or 3 years to prove your worth, and you are picked up by a club offering up this sort of sh1t, you'll be asking some very hard questions behind the scenes. That makes for disunity, and that is what we look like, a club without unity!

How does that fit with the message over the last few years?

Is SoJ one of those kids, how does his old man fit into all this, who can BB trust?

So many conflicts of interest, so much potential for things to go so very wrong!

Hughesy and Co., better get onto the overtime making those videos, we probably need one for every unsigned member!

Full Post Match Vid HERE (http://www.afl.com.au/video/2018-03-31/full-postmatch-carlton)

Quotes;

It's not a catastrophe, we must not catastrophise!
It's an easy fix!
We had a plan to cover the loss of Kreuzer, he was close! :o
We weren't smashed in the clearances.
It's hard to explain.

Pies looking ominous for next week.

17 more inside 50s and we lose by 6 gls...  :o >:(

Something is not right between Weitering's lugholes. He has to be rested or given a run in the magoos to get some touch and confidence... it's almost cruel putting him out there at present.

Now we know what our worst looks like, it was almost as if we explored every possible avenue of how to FU hard fought opportunities. So many skill errors, so many poor decisions. Gee I hope we don't put in another one like that. So, so, so, so inefficient which means no reward for effort which means a drop in confidence.

Pies looking ominous for next week.

An Easter full of joy, I'm off to fill an egg full of gin and celebrate! ;D

An Easter full of joy! :D

Sports fans are a fairly jittery bunch : unable to see or predict the future, worried about adverse historical events repeating, they need and seek constant reassurance from their team - progress, wins, effort etc. Any blips on the radar are usually jumped upon and dealt with poorly. And I'm up there with the worst in this respect. But sometimes it's best to step back, and at the very least, wait until we have a larger sample space to work with, before we draw any conclusions.

Selecting Polson,  period.  No K replacement.   No forward or defensive organisation...  Time to ask serious questions of Mr Bolton.  

Not happy Jan.   I didn't expect to win but I thought this crap was behind us.

PS.   We need some hard as nails inside midfielders,  I still would have gone for LDU.   Our midfield  is small and slow.

Mullet is ca ca.  Soft and suspect under any pressure,  but he ain't the lone ranger.

Don't know about you but I expected a win being at home. 3rd year in I expect to win these types of games. I said last week that a great effort against Richmond would mean nothing if we lost to the likes of the Gold Coast. Not only did we lose we lost as poorly as I can imagine.

They touched us up last year in Melbourne only for us to return the favour in Qld. It reminded of those games we have played against the Lions the last 2 years. Good performances leading up, expecting to win and the players don't come to play thinking it will just happen.

It doesn't necessarily mean he can't turn it around...but he doesn't get the free pass anymore.
The blowtorch is on!

IMO the blowtorch should be on the whole match committee. We've lost the last 2 games at the selection table.

First week...
i've been very vocal about Weiterings selection being counterproductive to winning. Very few agreed with me before the match. Got a bit more support when he was indeed a liability on the night.
2 touches in the first half.

This week...
Again, with Weitering (1 touch in the first half this week - only 4 for the match, 1 given to him courtesy of a free kick.) but lets bring in another key defender because....?  :o
Also lets drop Silvagni, a forward for that spot too.
Oh, and Kreuzer was almost never going to get up, so lets use our other forward in the ruck all game, and bring in a mid.
So now we are 2 forwards short, 1 extra key defender heavier than the heavy key defender backline we had last week.....and our last minute replacement was a kid playing his 2nd game.....on the back of a game last week in which Crash said he was not ready for AFL.

I heard Rowe is back soon, might as well bring him and A. Silvagni into the side next week. Reckon we should drop Charlie and Wright to fit them in.
Thoughts?

Did you expect to win today?

Did you expect to replace Kreuzer with Polson?

I expected to win.

If we can't beat sides like Gold Coast in Melbourne, i'm not sure how many teams we will be able to beat.  :-[

S. Dew

turning out to be a good find.
Post ablett, 2 from 2, playing a brand of footy, we should be playing.

Weitering, im afraid aint up to his no 1 draft status and might be a dud in the making
too slow, seems disinterested, crapt kick

Shocking selection blunder by including Poulsen, and not including a tall ie McKay to help Casboult. WTF were they thinking...Witts deserved some respect and we got burnt in the ruck bigtime.
Sick of how the same players from respective clubs burn us every game ie Lynch, can we at least have a plan B or C for these players, it was so obvious he was going to get the footy every time they went forward, we were out of position with too few defenders in his area and leaving him one out with Jones was madness.

Cunningham cant hit targets by hand or foot
Samo by foot also undercooks the footy and half volleys his passes.
Mullett see what Prof wrote...soft...
Murphy....up and under kicks give other players no hope of marking the ball...

Weitering...the kid is shot mentally and looks miserable playing footy.
Byrne..poor disposal and loose on his man.
Jones...great intent but poor decision making with these across the ground kicks..

Woeful performance and the blowtorch has to be on Bolton and the selectors....

Positive....Jarrod Garlett...good attack on the footy and for a little bloke he tackles well...

I expected to win.

If we can't beat sides like Gold Coast in Melbourne, i'm not sure how many teams we will be able to beat.  :-[

I agree there. 3rd year in time to be winning these types of games, no ifs or buts. And yes, team selection, I have no idea what the hell they were thinking.

Shocking selection blunder by including Poulsen, and not including a tall ie McKay to help Casboult. ETF were they thinking...Witts deserved some respect and we got burnt in the ruck bigtime.
Sick of how the same players from respective clubs burn us every game ie Lynch, can we at least have a plan B or C for these players, it was so obvious he was going to get the footy every time they went forward, we were out of position with too few defenders in his area and leaving him one out with Jones was madness.

Cunningham cant hit targets by hand or foot
Samo by foot also undercooks the footy and half volleys his passes.
Mullett see what Prof wrote...soft...
Murphy....up and under kicks give other players no hope of marking the ball...

Weitering...the kid is shot mentally and looks miserable playing footy.
Byrne..poor disposal and loose on his man.
Jones...great intent but poor decision making with these across the ground kicks..

Woeful performance and the blowtorch has to be on Bolton and the selectors....

Weitering look a gun in his first year, looked good last year despite a flat patch. This year has got me stuffed. Think he'll turn out a very good player but right now he needs time in the VFL. Alex Silvagni would be alot more benefit because of his size, pace, and strength. Capable of playing on different types.

I think the thing that worries me the most is that I cant see where the improvement will come from in the short term...yep Kreuzer and Kennedy would be handy but I doubt they'd have made the difference.
Long year ahead :(

Barnaby French would have made a massive difference let alone Kreuzer.

I'm beginning to wonder if anyone at all can make a difference! I feel like we're at the centre of a black hole. :(

Just got home from that debacle, wow. I really need someone from Match Committee to explain why we chose to go into the game without a ruckman. Witts did as he pleased and we decided to use one of our only two marking forwards as a ruck? Ludicrous decision. Our skill level was worse than woeful. Simple kicks and handballs missing targets, and when one did get within reach we fumbled. It really was back to the dark days. Even worse, they worked much harder than us and outnumbered us at most contests. Going to have to work hard to turn this around

I think the thing that worries me the most is that I cant see where the improvement will come from in the short term...yep Kreuzer and Kennedy would be handy but I doubt they'd have made the difference.
Long year ahead :(

Not sure about that. We need to go back to the efforts we produced last year. If they do the rest will look after itself. Today wasn't about ability, it was about effort.

Today was more about skill tha effort IMO, our skills were just about the worst I've ever seen

Not sure about that. We need to go back to the efforts we produced last year. If they do the rest will look after itself. Today wasn't about ability, it was about effort.

..and we dropped a bloke that provides it unconditionally in Silvagni.

Hope he is back next week. More blokes putting in, the better the team plays.

Don't know why we can't get players like Lyons: cheap and effective.

Instead we chase discards from sh1t clubs and wonder why the likes of Mullet are so disappointing.

IMO the blowtorch should be on the whole match committee. We've lost the last 2 games at the selection table.

First week...
i've been very vocal about Weiterings selection being counterproductive to winning. Very few agreed with me before the match. Got a bit more support when he was indeed a liability on the night.
2 touches in the first half.

This week...
Again, with Weitering (1 touch in the first half this week - only 4 for the match, 1 given to him courtesy of a free kick.) but lets bring in another key defender because....?  :o
Also lets drop Silvagni, a forward for that spot too.
Oh, and Kreuzer was almost never going to get up, so lets use our other forward in the ruck all game, and bring in a mid.
So now we are 2 forwards short, 1 extra key defender heavier than the heavy key defender backline we had last week.....and our last minute replacement was a kid playing his 2nd game.....on the back of a game last week in which Crash said he was not ready for AFL.

I heard Rowe is back soon, might as well bring him and A. Silvagni into the side next week. Reckon we should drop Charlie and Wright to fit them in.
Thoughts?

I owe you an apology.

Last week I backed play weitering (I still do because the kids need games).

This week our coach outcoached himself.

Dew didn't need to do much to win today.  We beat ourselves before his team did.

I back playing polson, but maybe this was the wrong week for that.

Weitering...stays back (Marchbank/ Weitering -CHB FB)
Jones...roving back /follower (he's too loose to play one on one but he does provide contest and effort)
Casboult forward...not to ruck...to be replaced by McKay or Kerr sooner rather than later.
Persist with Silvagni
If Kreuzer's not available Lobbe or Phillips must come in.

Bolton's honeymoon is over.

We got badly out-coached today. Bolts had got to own this and learn some lessons from it, as there was so little that was in any way acceptable.

The Match Committee is going to have to hard questions to answer as well. Even an underdone Phillips would have been more effective than Casboult and Jones were in the ruck today. Witts has developed into a decent ruckman, and he used his height and strength to give them an arm-chair ride in the middle, one we simply had o answer to.
Our team was not well balanced. We really need to do some thinking before Friday's game or we are going to be smashed.

The players also need to ask themselves some questions. No matter how ordinary the performance was off the field, the guys on-field have to take responsibility for how we played. Gold Coast wanted it more than we did. They appeared stronger and faster. We had a LOT more of the ball than Gold Coast did, yet we got no benefit from that.

Richmond, Sydney and Western Bulldogs over the last couple of years have shown a lot of what is required to be successful. Pressure. Fanatic pressure. We do not apply that sort of pressure. Until we do, we are not going to win games we should win.
Start with that. Design a side that runs and chases and tackles and smothers like they really mean it. No free and easy possessions to the opposition!
That was the biggest single issue of today, and it could be seen in the first half with Lynch. He didn't win any contests. He didn't have to. He had about 4 marks for the game. But he had 21 possessions and most of them were in the clear, as Jones was drawn to the play because they were running freely. The had the rub of the green from the umps (who missed some shockers). But if we are good enough, then poor umpiring will not matter.

There is no fate but what we make for ourselves! It is about time we believed that and decided to make that fate. it will not come just because we want it. It comes from within US!

I have not felt this flat after a loss for a long time - the light at the end of the tunnel seems as dim as it has ever been.

They had a whole week to contemplate how to play without Kreuz and the best they can come up with is to replace him with a  177cm spud who cannot kick and doesn't think fast enough?

The game was lost from that moment - absolutely nothing forward to kick to (Charlie spent most of his time on the wing), so they started doing the sideways bulltish again, coughed it up time and time again, and handed over easy goals.

We had 17 more inside 50s and yet we were never in the game.

So, simple coaching - you take away the biggest marking option in the forward 50 to cover the ruck, you put something up forward to straighten the team up.

Without a doubt the most appalling selection call I have seen and I cannot wait to hear how they can justify it.

And let's be honest - time for some home truths

Dow - off the hook by virtue of inexperience - shows enough
Murph - gets the ball heaps but he's a butcher-and-a-half
SPS - tick
Simmo - love him to death, but he is never going to be your best HB playmaker, he doesn't have the skills - the goal he handed over just prior to half time was an absolute shocker
Cripps - can't be mid, forward and everything else in between - won't blame him if he starts looking for a team where he gets some real help
Lamb - seriously, how does this guy get a game?  Lamb goes well with spuds.....
Jones - needs to be not quite so expansive in his play - while we are full of turnover kings, he is left exposed unless he watches his man - got caught out 3 or 4 times today by butchers at half back
Mullett - couldn't get a game at the Kangas, just filling a spot
Plowman - regularly being asked to play above his weight.  Has become reactive - spoiled the ball at least twice today when he should have marked.
Garlett - let's put the excitement aside for a minute - to me, he looks timid out there.  He will probably do some flashy things, but consistency won't be his long suit
Marchbank - great mark, but can someone please teach him how to kick....?
Weitering - looks absolutely lost out there atm
O'Shea - Mullett mark II - really struggled with the pace today
Fisher - tick
Cuningham - not the worst, but goes missing and makes poor disposal decisions
Polson - see Lamb - he's the spud on the plate - you might forgive him due to inexperience, but unfortunately he's small, has poor disposal skills and makes poor decisions.  Would need a miracle to still be on the list in 2019. Will have a great career in the Amateurs.
C.Curnow - can we clone him?
E.Curnow - works his butt off but very average disposal - we probably need to keep him so we can keep Charlie happy
Byrne - like his dash but often doesn't have a plan in mind - if he doesn't know what he is going to do, what chance have his teammates got?
Thomas - probably doing the role he is capable of.  When you consider we virtually swapped him for Eddie, we have be significantly short-changed.  Thanks, Mick.
Casboult - totally out of position today.  Our rucks for the short, mid and long-term are a serious issue.
Wright - always tries his guts out - but he cannot play as a key forward.  Got murdered today because he had no help.

Another item of note - Nick Holman, who was not good enough for us, laid more tackles today than any Carlton player.

Well, am I being unfair? Or is it just another Saturday night after a miserable afternoon at Etihad....?

Now that I've meditated for an hour, I'll comment on the game.  O0

The good
Garlett played with intensity and flair
Samo very composed and we'll positioned
Zac Attack gave another solid performance
Crippa still solid, kicked an important goal
Charlie had more good patches
Daisy level head

The bad
Team selection
The game plan and transition to plan B
Carlton without Kruez
Simmo decision making
Our good defence evaporated

The ugly
Our contested game
Our skills - dropped marks, missed targets, tackles not sticking
Our cohesion - total disorganization today

MY sympathy goes to those bluebaggers who attended today :'(

Very simple really. Too many nuff nuff ex footy players making decisions they shouldn't.

Tall goes out? Tall comes in. Hello? Any lights on in there?

(but no, we'll play a very small kid who barely gets a kick in the 2s).

Cuners and Dow? well, there's another two men down.

Dow has excuses - learn the craft in the 2s.

Cuners - needs to learn cameos don't cut it....

(to think Kerridge has been deemed unworthy  :-[ )

We started with 19 guys, played like we had 15....

Finally< murphy? A leader he is not.

Team effort? Z

So it's SOS then, his recruiters, list managers and the rest of the MC.
No?

It's not down to SOS.
We are missing an entire cohort of 100 game players, players like Isaac Smith taken the pick after Watson, Talia taken the pick after Lucas, and just about everyone taken after Bootsma.
Our second and third rounders in those years were also wipe outs, so we are sadly lacking in experienced players who have been at the club 6 or 8 years who can form the nucleus of a successful team while also covering our woeful lack of depth.
It can't be fixed in two or three years, as supporters we need to suck it up and cut Bolton some slack.

It's not down to SOS.
We are missing an entire cohort of 100 game players, players like Isaac Smith taken the pick after Watson, Talia taken the pick after Lucas, and just about everyone taken after Bootsma.
Our second and third rounders in those years were also wipe outs, so we are sadly lacking in experienced players who have been at the club 6 or 8 years who can form the nucleus of a successful team while also covering our woeful lack of depth.
It can't be fixed in two or three years, as supporters we need to suck it up and cut Bolton some slack.

Bolton can have some slack but if he tries to be too cute with team selection again he won't be getting cut slack for much longer.

The idea to drop Silvagni and move Casboult into the ruck without bringing in another tall forward sounds stupid enough yet this was the "plan".

Weitering has yet to prove his worth as a key forward,  and polson has yet to prove he can compete as a player at this level at all.

You could argue the same about Cunningham but he's shown enough to get a game. 

Don't know why we can't get players like Lyons: cheap and effective.

Instead we chase discards from sh1t clubs and wonder why the likes of Mullet are so disappointing.

We could have had Lyons as part of the original Gibbs deal...neat player by foot.

So, I'll ask the question/..

WTF Jacob Weitering? What's happening with you lad?

It's not down to SOS.
We are missing an entire cohort of 100 game players, players like Isaac Smith taken the pick after Watson, Talia taken the pick after Lucas, and just about everyone taken after Bootsma.
Our second and third rounders in those years were also wipe outs, so we are sadly lacking in experienced players who have been at the club 6 or 8 years who can form the nucleus of a successful team while also covering our woeful lack of depth.
It can't be fixed in two or three years, as supporters we need to suck it up and cut Bolton some slack.

It's an interesting point. The players from today around the 80-150 game mark :

Wright 139
Curnow 123
Jones 96
Cas 95
Mullet 86
O’Shea 81

Apart from Wright, the rest of those are simply ordinary footballers. And that for me is the far bigger problem.

It's not down to SOS.
We are missing an entire cohort of 100 game players, players like Isaac Smith taken the pick after Watson, Talia taken the pick after Lucas, and just about everyone taken after Bootsma.
Our second and third rounders in those years were also wipe outs, so we are sadly lacking in experienced players who have been at the club 6 or 8 years who can form the nucleus of a successful team while also covering our woeful lack of depth.
It can't be fixed in two or three years, as supporters we need to suck it up and cut Bolton some slack.

That’s what I saw today.  Our lack of depth is really exposed when we cop an injury and/or one of our better players has a quiet day.

rubbish, it's not the players, it's what doesn't go in between the ears - collectively.

Today - collectively - we were so far off the required standard it wasn't funny.

Q1 especially.

WHY?

That was an epic cluster fck of a game.

Whoever was in charge of team selection wants to be let go immediately.

Half the team was played out of position, no ruck and the INs were awful.

Polson - way off AFL level. Cunningham had a shocker.

O'Shea wasn't great.

Gave that game up.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt today because they've shown to be alot better but they best be lifting next week and the week after that etc, to make this effort an aberration.

It's an interesting point. The players from today around the 80-150 game mark :

Wright 139
Curnow 123
Jones 96
Cas 95
Mullet 86
O’Shea 81

Apart from Wright, the rest of those are simply ordinary footballers. And that for me is the far bigger problem.

Ed Curnow earns his spot. 

Ed Curnow earns his spot.

He may well, and I know he gives 100% effort, but IMO he's just an average footballer.

He may well, and I know he gives 100% effort, but IMO he's just an average footballer.

He's a bit better than average.

Jones too....we just coughed the ball up repeatedly.

O'Shea - was he playing forward?

Why Kerridge isn't getting a game before Dow, Polson or Cuners staggers me. Terrifies me in fact.

We went into the game with no ruck and 3 players down.

BB - honeymoon is over, you score 1 out of 10 t oday....

That’s what I saw today.  Our lack of depth is really exposed when we cop an injury and/or one of our better players has a quiet day.

Appreciate we lost Kreuzer, Kennedy but our skills and decision making were terrible on and off the ground....players skills were shocking and the coaches tactics /selectors were terrible.
Going in one tall short after losing Kreuzer was a diabolical error...Poulsen was ordinary in the VFL practice game and should not have played.
Bolton's tactics baffle me and he seem devoid of tactical nous when in the heat of battle...Lynch kicking 8 is a blight on the coaching dept not Jones IMO, I was at the game and
the GC forward line was open all the time and gave Jones no hope given the amount of supply.
We looked leaderless and lost today on and off the field...

fair summary EB.

Bolts better start sucking up some of his own learning as today was the effort of a bottom 2 side.

Appreciate we lost Kreuzer, Kennedy but our skills and decision making were terrible on and off the ground....players skills were shocking and the coaches tactics /selectors were terrible.
Going in one tall short after losing Kreuzer was a diabolical error...Poulsen was ordinary in the VFL practice game and should not have played.
Bolton's tactics baffle me and he seem devoid of tactical nous when in the heat of battle...Lynch kicking 8 is a blight on the coaching dept not Jones IMO, I was at the game and
the GC forward line was open all the time and gave Jones no hope given the amount of supply.
We looked leaderless and lost today on and off the field...

Also, they were all over us when we got into our F50 and choked us off time and time again. They seemed to get back so quickly as soon as we got possession.

 went today with expectations of a win.  Terrible and embarrassing. It's been covered, but Polson? Really? No ruck, really?.  When do skill errors become plain lack of skills?  The number of kicks to disadvantage, missed handballs, dropped marks, missed tackles seems very high.

Cute flashy play looks good except when it doesn't work, which is most of the time.

One other thing - get rid of the bounce.  There are to many times it needs to be recalled.

I believed that we would finish 13-16, and I stand by that.

Would you call that progress? You’re easily pleased if you do.....

The players wore double black arm bands, has been stated why?

The death of season 2018.....

Also, they were all over us when we got into our F50 and choked us off time and time again. They seemed to get back so quickly as soon as we got possession.

They were playing seven in defense causing lots of congestion and ran really hard off half back.

Docherty is a much bigger loss for our team than anyone can realise.

It was the sort of game we needed a big defense splitting presence like Levi (or maybe harry McKay).... Too bad we had him pencilled into the ruck and played weitering forward rather than bringing in a ruckman (Phillips) or perhaps another leading forward (jack Silvagni who?).

the match committee had a few options and took the one least likely to do either of win or develop our youngsters which resulted in nothing but an opportunity lost.

I can forgive not winning.  I hate the fact that we went the recycled untested tactic rather than playing the kids properly.

unfortunately it's reality. Take a side that finished 16th with a percentage of 70, remove two of their best players (Docherty and Gibbs), what do you expect? Especially today with Kreuzer out as well

Did folks notice that a number of times the umpires called for the Carlton ruck to nominate and were left with no response.
I think there was one time when Daisy went to contest and was told to stay out of it.

Also, they were all over us when we got into our F50 and choked us off time and time again. They seemed to get back so quickly as soon as we got possession.

Yep their Forward line was open and ours was flooded ....they ran harder and knew their roles.
It was terrible to watch and be able to predict what would happen when they had the footy.

That was an epic cluster fck of a game.

Whoever was in charge of team selection wants to be let go immediately.

Half the team was played out of position, no ruck and the INs were awful.

Polson - way off AFL level. Cunningham had a shocker.

O'Shea wasn't great.

Gave that game up.

I think that's a fair summary.  Disappointing but fair  :-\
At a stretch we can consider the increased i50 count as a step fwd in that area. Albeit the entries were often shallow, attempting to hit up a non-existent forward structure.

Bolts and the boys have much work ahead of them. Our selectors have even more work imo. If the pies play like they did today next week, we'll see a replay of the shameful MM 700 era. THAT will not attract players, members, or organizations to the club. Unfortunately I think our injuries are taking a toll that we have no depth to cover.

It will be a painful exercise reviewing the game. The upside is there will be a truckload of learning  :-\

The death of season 2018.....

Either something massive will change as a result of today's debacle or the death of Bolton too (as a coach).

Today's limp effort was not a function of no Kreuzer...

 armbands- one was for Ken Hands and the other for a previous coach (can't remember ago they said)

Drop Jack Silvagni so that you can play Weitering out of position.

Madness.

We asked for this at the selection table - and we copped it. Absolute disgrace and Bolton can cop all the criticism coming his way because it is his alone.

I will reserve a bit of bile for Marc Murphy who we just need to move on from. He should not be captain. Nice flashy sort of player that floats around without ever really dominating or leading his team to a win - and has no interest in tackling.

The captain sets the tone and as he so often does he set the tone on this game. We got what we asked for.

Paddy Dow?

Why was he played in the 1s again today?

The kid is so far off senior level it's farcical....

Then there's Polson....

Drop Jack Silvagni so that you can play Weitering out of position.

Madness.

We asked for this at the selection table - and we copped it. Absolute disgrace and Bolton can cop all the criticism coming his way because it is his alone.

I will reserve a bit of bile for Marc Murphy who we just need to move on from. He should not be captain. Nice flashy sort of player that floats around without ever really dominating or leading his team to a win - and has no interest in tackling.

The captain sets the tone and as he so often does he set the tone on this game. We got what we asked for.

Agree 400% re the Murphy comments, 200% th rest.

I will reserve a bit of bile for Marc Murphy who we just need to move on from. He should not be captain. Nice flashy sort of player that floats around without ever really dominating or leading his team to a win - and has no interest in tackling.

The captain sets the tone and as he so often does he set the tone on this game. We got what we asked for.

Murphy got 30 possessions with no Carlton ruckmen of any sort, and he played 93% game time in the center! :o

What are you smoking?

yep 30 lazy, ineffectual ones....

the bloke seemingly can't kick 30m these days....

yep 30 lazy, ineffectual ones....

the bloke seemingly can't kick 30m these days....

You haven't watched the game, and you make comments like that! :o

Did folks notice that a number of times the umpires called for the Carlton ruck to nominate and were left with no response.
I think there was one time when Daisy went to contest and was told to stay out of it.

Yes I noticed that Lods. There were extended periods where nobody seemed to know who would ruck. That buggers up any stoppage strategy we may have had. We missed Bam Bam in this respect.
I kept thinking we looked disorganised. I suspect this applies to the series of events over the past 8 days, not just today.

Would you call that progress? You’re easily pleased if you do.....

With such a young list, and a mediocre group in the mid range of games played, I just think we need to take a longer term view of progress. As I said previously, look at the Cats under Thompson and the Tigers under Hardwick. I wish we could turn it around in one pre season, but that's simply not possible.

2019/2020 I expect better.

Barnaby French would have made a massive difference let alone Kreuzer.

Mark Porter would have been a positive!

That was pitiful. It started with Kruezer being out, with Poulson replacing him we weaken three positions, ruck, key forward and key back. Play de Koning who was listed as emergency and we only weaken one position. Both Levi and Weitering looked more comfortable when Jones played in the ruck.

Weitering was a gun in his first season because he was give a key back position to be his own, he was drafted as a key back and because we have a glut of bigger backmen he has been sacrificed because he is the least worst option up forward. Bolton came out and said that he needs to nail down a position this season down back for the sake of his development, but thanks to the stupid selection of Poulson we had to unbalance the team, especially after O'Shea got a call up as well.

We slag off Malthouse for what he did to the club, but he knew what he had with Jakovich at CHB, even though he was capable of playing forward he was a gun at CHB. Leave Weiters there and build around him. Have him and Marchbank intercept, Jones looking after the gorillas and if we need to sacrifice anyone, Plowman enjoy the VFL. The match committee is ruining Jacob Weitering and if it continues and I was JW's manager I'd be looking for a trade.

I know we have this "layered" approach to build the offensive game but why when the game is getting beyond us did we not play a 7 man backline like we have done for the past 2 years? That's the thing with layers, you can put one back on or take them off when required. 

Now here is the real funny thing, we dropped a marking forward in Silvagni (rightly so too) then when we lost Kruezer, we effectively lost another one with Levi having to ruck. Surely we knew that MK was touch & go, so why did we not list a McKay as emergency? Or at least Kerr if we weren't going to play de Koning? What will make the Carlton match committee look really stupid is if Krezuer doesn't come up for next Fridays game.

Unless we have injuries galore I do not want to see Mullet in a Carlton jumper again, he is selfish and crap. O'Shea not much better, Poulson has no tricks and Lamb should only come along when we play Hawthorn. I think back to when we were talking about depth....ha ha ha ha, about as much as a bird bath.

Our skills we ordinary as a whole with only Fisher, SPS and Cripps able to hold their heads up. Cunningham was decent, I like his game and think it can improve but it won't if he's going back and forth from the VFL.

If we were fair dinkum about our injuries and how much they effected this game, play Kruezer in the ruck, Kennedy and Lang in the middle, Pickett up forward and A.Silvagni, Docherty and Williamson down back, and we would have a very different result. Take out Mullet, O'Shea, Byrne, Dow, Lamb, Plowman and Poulson if you were wondering. But that's not going to happen and injuries are all part of the game so we are stuck with a 36 point loss, bad skills, bad team balance and a beaten coaching team.

We won 6 games last year and lost 2 out of our best 4 players.   We can't afford to have anyone out and need to unearth a few midfielders.

yep 30 lazy, ineffectual ones....

the bloke seemingly can't kick 30m these days....

Agree....kicks were more high than long and gave his teammates no hope, he gave effort and tried but his disposal and decision making was ordinary and often sold his mates into
trouble...tries to do too much, gets caught and then turns it over even though he finds a teammate but usually under pressure and manned up...

That was pitiful. It started with Kruezer being out, with Poulson replacing him we weaken three positions, ruck, key forward and key back. Play de Koning who was listed as emergency and we only weaken one position. Both Levi and Weitering looked more comfortable when Jones played in the ruck.

Weitering was a gun in his first season because he was give a key back position to be his own, he was drafted as a key back and because we have a glut of bigger backmen he has been sacrificed because he is the least worst option up forward. Bolton came out and said that he needs to nail down a position this season down back for the sake of his development, but thanks to the stupid selection of Poulson we had to unbalance the team, especially after O'Shea got a call up as well.

We slag off Malthouse for what he did to the club, but he knew what he had with Jakovich at CHB, even though he was capable of playing forward he was a gun at CHB. Leave Weiters there and build around him. Have him and Marchbank intercept, Jones looking after the gorillas and if we need to sacrifice anyone, Plowman enjoy the VFL. The match committee is ruining Jacob Weitering and if it continues and I was JW's manager I'd be looking for a trade.

I know we have this "layered" approach to build the offensive game but why when the game is getting beyond us did we not play a 7 man backline like we have done for the past 2 years? That's the thing with layers, you can put one back on or take them off when required. 

Now here is the real funny thing, we dropped a marking forward in Silvagni (rightly so too) then when we lost Kruezer, we effectively lost another one with Levi having to ruck. Surely we knew that MK was touch & go, so why did we not list a McKay as emergency? Or at least Kerr if we weren't going to play de Koning? What will make the Carlton match committee look really stupid is if Krezuer doesn't come up for next Fridays game.

Unless we have injuries galore I do not want to see Mullet in a Carlton jumper again, he is selfish and crap. O'Shea not much better, Poulson has no tricks and Lamb should only come along when we play Hawthorn. I think back to when we were talking about depth....ha ha ha ha, about as much as a bird bath.

Our skills we ordinary as a whole with only Fisher, SPS and Cripps able to hold their heads up. Cunningham was decent, I like his game and think it can improve but it won't if he's going back and forth from the VFL.

If we were fair dinkum about our injuries and how much they effected this game, play Kruezer in the ruck, Kennedy and Lang in the middle, Pickett up forward and A.Silvagni, Docherty and Williamson down back, and we would have a very different result. Take out Mullet, O'Shea, Byrne, Dow, Lamb, Plowman and Poulson if you were wondering. But that's not going to happen and injuries are all part of the game so we are stuck with a 36 point loss, bad skills, bad team balance and a beaten coaching team.

Have we nominated a rookie to replace Docherty yet?

Weitering is as slow as treacle and the first injury he got to his shoulder has made him timid at the ball, he doesnt want contact and that hit he took today(Bowes I think it was ) probably took what confidence he had left out of him. He need 3 weeks at least in the twos learning how to attack the ball and how to use his smarts to overcome his lack of pace..

You haven't watched the game, and you make comments like that! :o

i watched the game, what are you smoking fella?

The Captain who shouldn't be...

Yes I noticed that Lods. There were extended periods where nobody seemed to know who would ruck. That buggers up any stoppage strategy we may have had. We missed Bam Bam in this respect.
I kept thinking we looked disorganised. I suspect this applies to the series of events over the past 8 days, not just today.

Amateur hour is what we saw today from the so called (non playing) brains trust....

We won 6 games last year and lost 2 out of our best 4 players.   We can't afford to have anyone out and need to unearth a few midfielders.

Need to unearth some new selectors and a coach who can move with the game and sense momentum swings, appreciate we lost Docherty, MK and Gibbs traded but we didnt learn much from the corresponding game last year.. players like Lyons, Lynch did the damage and we failed to learn anything.
We had one part time ruckman and our Fullback rucking  vs a bloke who is nearly 7 foot, no wonder we struggled.....

Most teams have a Murphy type player.

None of them are made captain.

i watched the game, what are you smoking fella?

The Captain who shouldn't be...

Your comments seem to contradict that you watched the game.

Nobody who had watched the game could label Murphy's game lazy, and a lot of his ineffectiveness was because he was winning football inside, despite our pathetic ruck setup, and disposing continually while under pressure to team-mates who wouldn't spread from the contest. I comparison his game was about as statistically effective as Cripps!

If you are focussed on Murphy after that game, you are just providing smokescreens and excuses for many others who have far more to answer for!

Who else do you think needs a rocket?

What the screwk was that?
How can we still be so crapt?
No we can't expect to turn things 180 degrees in one off season as someone earlier postulated, but god help us, we shouldn't be still putting in performances like that. There was no sign of improvement, in fact there were signs of going backwards. And screwk the plaudits about last weeks game where we blew a 5 goal lead to be beaten by 5 goals, screwk that crapt. No more. Not good enough.
That was putrid. I almost cried.
I don't know if I have ever seen a worse collective effort from a team.
I love Murph, but seriously, how can anyone defend his effort today. 30 possessions? Did someone in the last quarter call out 42% efficiency? Worst 30 possession game in the history of 30 possession games.
I guess I'll just hope my kid doesnt ask how Carlton went tomorrow. It's getting harder to keep him blue.

Your comments seem to contradict that you watched the game.

Nobody who had watched the game could label Murphy's game lazy, and a lot of his ineffectiveness was because he was winning football inside, despite our pathetic ruck setup, and disposing continually while under pressure to team-mates who wouldn't spread from the contest.

If you are focussed on Murphy after that game, you are just providing smokescreens and excuses for many others who have far more to answer for!

Sorry to piss on your parade, but the word "lazy" was used metaphorically..... :o

Murphy is a shadow of his former self. Sorry if you can't see that.

ps LP, see Deags' comments above. QED.

Your comments seem to contradict that you watched the game.

Nobody who had watched the game could label Murphy's game lazy, and a lot of his ineffectiveness was because he was winning football inside, despite our pathetic ruck setup, and disposing continually while under pressure to team-mates who wouldn't spread from the contest.

If you are focussed on Murphy after that game, you are just providing smokescreens and excuses for many others who have far more to answer for!

Who else do you think needs a rocket?

I think you look at the stats sheet a bit too much.

He did nothing at all meaningful.

Polson at least tried to get involved, and SOS has jagged one in Fisher.

Is there a weaker AFL captain than Murphy?

Your comments seem to contradict that you watched the game.

Nobody who had watched the game could label Murphy's game lazy, and a lot of his ineffectiveness was because he was winning football inside, despite our pathetic ruck setup, and disposing continually while under pressure to team-mates who wouldn't spread from the contest. I comparison his game was about as statistically effective as Cripps!

If you are focussed on Murphy after that game, you are just providing smokescreens and excuses for many others who have far more to answer for!

Who else do you think needs a rocket?

I agree, I thought that Murphy was very good today along with Cripps and Petrevski-Seton, you could throw Ed Curnow in as well but gee his foot skills are scrappy, the one time he spotted someone up Lamb fluffed the shot.
Considering we were copping a hiding in the ruck our midfield did pretty well, but our front half is our Achilles heel and our back six is top heavy, add to that our poor skills and you have a bottom four side again I'm afraid.
Weitering, Byrne, Murphy, Thomas and Petrevski-Seton all have good foot skills but after that you struggle, we just cough it up far too much.  

FFS we have so many more and bigger problems than Murphy, he was in our best players again today

Need to unearth some new selectors and a coach who can move with the game and sense momentum swings, appreciate we lost Docherty, MK and Gibbs traded but we didnt learn much from the corresponding game last year.. players like Lyons, Lynch did the damage and we failed to learn anything.
We had one part time ruckman and our Fullback rucking  vs a bloke who is nearly 7 foot, no wonder we struggled.....

With Lobbe out and Phillips still a game or 2 away we didn't have any options if you really think about it.  
De Koning would have got slaughtered by Witts.  

Maybe we should have played McKay forward and Levi in the ruck, but we still would have conceded the ruck.

Doc and Gibbs are massive and you can't replace them straight away.

The players selected got enough of the ball.   We won the possession count and the inside 50's

Our ball movement inside 50 and our forward lines lack of movement where horrid today.

ps LP, see Deags' comments above. QED.

ps Flyboy, see Jack Burton's comments above.

You are lost in cause and effect, you looking at one of the symptoms of the shizen ruck setup and game plan, then labelling it as the cause.

It's the same for Weitering and Jones, people are looking for someone to blame and the people on the end of the problem are the easy ones to blame.

Let me ask you this, does Cripps get a pass mark, 24 possessions at a DE of 58%, from only 82% game time!

I think you look at the stats sheet a bit too much.

He did nothing at all meaningful.

The stat sheet tells me both Cripps and Murphy were rubbish, if it's moneyball the stats matter.

I'm saying the game has both cause and effect, and many supporters confuse the effects as the cause.

If w are going to effectively concede the ruck, let's do it by putting an extra midfielder in and forget even contesting the ball up.
Leave Levi forward. He is a waste of space wherever he plays, at least if he is forward, he might take 5 marks and kick 1 goal.
I made comment about Murphy playing like a spud today, I'm not however saying he is our problem. He is far from it. There were 10-12 players just as bad or worse, hence the result.

I agree, I thought that Murphy was very good today along with Cripps and Petrevski-Seton, you could throw Ed Curnow in as well but gee his foot skills are scrappy, the one time he spotted someone up Lamb fluffed the shot.
Considering we were copping a hiding in the ruck our midfield did pretty well, but our front half is our Achilles heel and our back six is top heavy, add to that our poor skills and you have a bottom four side again I'm afraid.
Weitering, Byrne, Murphy, Thomas and Petrevski-Seton all have good foot skills but after that you struggle, we just cough it up far too much.

Byrne butchers the footy at times when he panics, SPS won the ball ok but undercooks the footy leaving his teammates picking up half volleys, Murphy's disposal was horrific and more likely to hit a low flying plane than another player.
Thomas does use the ball ok but at his age doesnt get enough of it and Weitering these days is a shadow of the player he was in his first year when he did use the ball well, he is now slow timid and often under pressure when he kicks the ball... an example was when forward he had open space and could run further but didnt have the confidence and kicked the ball too early when he could have been more creative...

FFS we have so many more and bigger problems than Murphy, he was in our best players again today

You're a young fella clearly Jack....

Wait till we get a real Captain - then you'll see what a few of us are on about....

Weitering, Byrne, Murphy, Thomas and Petrevski-Seton all have good foot skills but after that you struggle, we just cough it up far too much.

The best we looked all day was a couple of chains in play that saw SPS and Weitering sending the ball inside F50 to hit a target. I realise in Weitering's case it was only a few seconds from a whole game, but compare that disposal to the day Marchbank or Simmo had! Unfortunately for us, the wrong people are getting the ball at the end of the chain. We need blokes like SPS and Weitering behind the play using the ball to enter F50, not receiving it in F50 or handing it off to the likes of Ed Curnow or Simpson to use going forward.

I thought Thomas was a again good today, effort all over the ground, a four quarter effort, he just can't be everywhere. Not as much ball as last week, but didn't do much wrong on a day when wrong was normal.

Byrne butchers the footy at times when he panics, SPS won the ball ok but undercooks the footy leaving his teammates picking up half volleys, Murphy's disposal was horrific and more likely to hit a low flying plane than another player.
Thomas does use the ball ok but at his age doesnt get enough of it and Weitering these days is a shadow of the player he was in his first year when he did use the ball well, he is now slow timid and often under pressure when he kicks the ball... an example was when forward he had open space and could run further but didnt have the confidence and kicked the ball too early when he could have been more creative...

A lot of Murphy's possessions today were under pressure, given time to balance his foot skills have always been good.
I disagree about Byrne and Petrevski-Seton, I think that both of them have solid foot skills.
As far as Thomas and Weitering I'm only judging their skills, Thomas was a bit quieter today but busy and effective last week, Weitering has had a couple of shockers but his skills are basically very good. 

Today's game shows we need a circuit breaker.

We're stuck in this era of sh1tness where we very rarely if ever play above our level.

Ending Murphy's captaincy could be a good start.

Today's game shows we need a circuit breaker.

We're stuck in this era of sh1tness where we very rarely if ever play above our level.

Ending Murphy's captaincy could be a good start.

You don't have the guts to name the problem today, it was dead obvious from the first bounce!

There's a name conspicuously missing from most of these posts!

It's bizarre how it seems to be avoided and exempt from criticism!

Any news on Byrne's injury?

If there's one thing I know it's that we can't absorb another loss to injury.

Kouta?

LP is waiting on someone to have a real crack at Levi.

Fact of the matter is he was cooked halfway through the game and couldn't jump anymore.

Probably copped a Corky somewhere.

Thought he battled ok for a bloke who really isn't a ruckman.

i thought Levi matched Witts.

Did his job....ws surprised Jones wasn't used in the ruck much eearlier....but Bolts had a shocker...in many ways.

You don't have the guts to name the problem today, it was dead obvious from the first bounce!

There's a name conspicuously missing from most of these posts!

It's bizarre how it seems to be avoided and exempt from criticism!

Would that be the umpire who dudded several bounces?

Team balance was exceedingly poor even before Kreuzer was ruled out of the game - really not sure what the club does at all of these meetings during the week, if they plan to go into a match with Byrne, Plowman, Marchbank, Simpson, Jones and  O’Shea in defence? Mobility? Coverage of a speedy small forward? Completely out of balance and Byrne and OShea are currently VFL at best.

In the midfield, our decision not to play a ruckman at all beggars belief, as does BB’s later adminssion that we had planned for Krooz not playing well before this game - here’s a tip Brendan, best to keep that one to yourself. Phillips or McKay should have played. As others have said the decision to play Polsen was poor and you’d have to say that either of Kerridge and Graham would have been more serviceable. We’re also currently carrying Cunningham, Garrlett and Paddy Dow who simply are not doing enough.

Murphy’s disposal was abysmal and I counted 6 absolute howlers from our captain. Worst game from him for a very long time.

Weitering? What’s left to say? I just don’t like his mindset. He’s not hard, not aggressive and I’m sorry but he’s not up for the fight.

Casboult was played out of position, Wright was largely unsighted.

It was all so hard to watch, but I haven’t lost hope. Obviously any team sheet with Mullet, OShea, Byrne, Polsen, Lamb is going to struggle, compounded by Weitering and Murphy’s form slumps and of course no recognisable ruck or full forward. Match committee go figure.

Thought he battled ok for a bloke who really isn't a ruckman.

Is that the bloke we persist with as our KPF because he's useful as a 2nd ruck?

Is that some cruel joke from the club to match up with the "Claim your Shame" ads they run on the scoreboard, part of the comedians campaign maybe?

LP is waiting on someone to have a real crack at Levi.

Fact of the matter is he was cooked halfway through the game and couldn't jump anymore.

Probably copped a Corky somewhere.

Thought he battled ok for a bloke who really isn't a ruckman.

I reckon Levi did more than OK. 

Kreuzer would have struggled against Witts but Casboult doesn’t have the Tractor’s ability to impact with second and third efforts, few ruckman do.  However, Levi stuck at it without any backup (apart from Jones’ last quarter cameo) and we won the clearances.

It was infuriating to hear the commentators bleating about Casboult not taking enough marks; he took more than Witts!

I reckon Levi did more than OK. 

Kreuzer would have struggled against Witts but Casboult doesn’t have the Tractor’s ability to impact with second and third efforts, few ruckman do.  However, Levi stuck at it without any backup (apart from Jones’ last quarter cameo) and we won the clearances.

It was infuriating to hear the commentators bleating about Casboult not taking enough marks; he took more than Witts!

You're joking aren't you!

Can you remind me who took the F50 rucks while Levi was struggling without backup on the last line of defence with Lynch?

I reckon Levi did more than OK. 

Kreuzer would have struggled against Witts but Casboult doesn’t have the Tractor’s ability to impact with second and third efforts, few ruckman do.  However, Levi stuck at it without any backup (apart from Jones’ last quarter cameo) and we won the clearances.

It was infuriating to hear the commentators bleating about Casboult not taking enough marks; he took more than Witts!

x4

One good thing about watching the game while listening to the radio is you get to hear the callers bloopers, it's amazing how often some of those bloopers turn up here, or in threads on other sites, getting discussed like they really happened!

Today there were two obvious examples, in one the radio caller confused SPS and Daisy, blaming Daisy for an SPS kicks that missed a target! I must admit it's hard to tell them apart! ;D

Is that the bloke we persist with as our KPF because he's useful as a 2nd ruck?

Is that some cruel joke from the club to match up with the "Claim your Shame" ads they run on the scoreboard, part of the comedians campaign maybe?

As relief he's ok.  Today he shouldered the load and struggled.

Next time he might go better for having done it all today.


How did you like our forwardline without him though?

He immediately dragged numbers to himself when he went forward for a spell.

He's our version of David hale only half as effective.

With a better midfield, he'd be better than Hale...

And let's not forget the effect that Kennedy and Lang will have on our midfield!

Soon hopefully...

With Lobbe out and Phillips still a game or 2 away we didn't have any options if you really think about it.  
De Koning would have got slaughtered by Witts.  

Maybe we should have played McKay forward and Levi in the ruck, but we still would have conceded the ruck.

Doc and Gibbs are massive and you can't replace them straight away.

The players selected got enough of the ball.   We won the possession count and the inside 50's

Our ball movement inside 50 and our forward lines lack of movement where horrid today.

Thats what I would have done......Mckay forward rotating with Casboult to at least make Witts run and work harder, yep Witts would still win overall but at least C, Curnow might have had some help
up forward. Poulsen was a ridiculous selection IMO and gave us nothing, rather play Graham and get Cripps to play forward more, I just didnt understand our tactics at all even with limited tall timber...
Agree on Docherty and Gibbs......its hurting us, players like Dow will take time and the JLT series is no substitute for real games

As relief he's ok.  Today he shouldered the load and struggled.

No he's not, and today he was rubbish from the get go, not after he got tired or allegedly injured, I suggest he's a pea-heart!

Next time he might go better for having done it all today.

He's had ten years to do that, and we are still waiting!

How did you like our forwardline without him though?

He immediately dragged numbers to himself when he went forward for a spell.

He's our version of David Hale only half as effective.

We didn't have a forward line, we took a 1st Rnd Draft pick KPD and tried to use him to cover for a bunch of spud forwards, and it's wasn't the first time it's been tried!

Casboult makes little or no difference, forward, ruck or defence. It's cruelling the whole team have him perform in such a pathetic manor. Witts had made Levi his bitch within two or three minutes of the first bounce and it was all over for the pea-heart from then on!

I cannot even write that "He looks like Tarzan and plays like Jane" because it's an insult to Jane!

You want to know why our team have their heads dragging, why they look like the world is on their shoulders, what is sapping their confidence and making them stressed and disinterested. It's continually playing blokes like Levi Casboult!

What Casboult does or did in the dying minutes, after the game is dead and buried, is of little consequence.

With a better midfield, he'd be better than Hale...

Baaaa Haaa Haaa Haaa.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DiscreteGrimyBats-max-1mb.gif)

I won't be able to sleep tonight, that could keep me laughing for hours!

Weitering......the first injury he got to his shoulder has made him timid at the ball, he doesnt want.......

100% spot on, that injury changed him, it literally knocked the confidence & any semblance of courage out of him & he’s been a different player ever since. Give me an AFL player with less influence & less disposals for the minutes he’s played in the first 2 rounds.....you’ll be hard pressed to find one.....

100% spot on, that injury changed him, it literally knocked the confidence & any semblance of courage out of him & he’s been a different player ever since. Give me an AFL player with less influence & less disposals for the minutes he’s played in the first 2 rounds.....you’ll be hard pressed to find one.....

Hmm, he was BoG just three or four weeks after that shoulder injury, playing as a KPD!

At the end of last season, the last three rounds, he was back playing in defence as the KPD, and was noticeably back to his confident best which was also without Rowe or Marchbank. I read somewhere he led the AFL for intercept marking over the last three rounds, just like the kid we drafted.

It's about time our MC stopped using this kid to patch holes and first let him master the role he's clearly most confident at filling!

You're joking aren't you!

Can you remind me who took the F50 rucks while Levi was struggling without backup on the last line of defence with Lynch?

I really don't know what you're on about LP  ::)

Blokes who nominated to contest ruck contests (absolutely stupid rule) included Thomas, Charlie Curnow, O'Shea and (I think) Samo when Levi was having a spell.  And of course, Jones had a go in the ruck in the last quarter but didn't manage to get his hand near the ball.

100% spot on, that injury changed him, it literally knocked the confidence & any semblance of courage out of him & he’s been a different player ever since. Give me an AFL player with less influence & less disposals for the minutes he’s played in the first 2 rounds.....you’ll be hard pressed to find one.....

x100.

I really don't know what you're on about LP  ::)

Blokes who nominated to contest ruck contests (absolutely stupid rule) included Thomas, Charlie Curnow, O'Shea and (I think) Samo when Levi was having a spell.  And of course, Jones had a go in the ruck in the last quarter but didn't manage to get his hand near the ball.

Just a few minutes ago you wrote this;

However, Levi stuck at it without any backup (apart from Jones’ last quarter cameo) and we won the clearances.

It was infuriating to hear the commentators bleating about Casboult not taking enough marks; he took more than Witts!

No backup, except for the others who took the stoppage rucks as Casboult dropped into D50. FFS, we had Charlie rucking, must we feck him up as well to cover for Casboult? We even had Weitering taking the ruck at F50 stoppages! Casboult got more chop out than Witts!

If you were Witts why would you want a chop out, why the feck would you want to leave the ruck at all, it was like a magical day in the life of Jarrod that he's unlikely to ever experience again!

Two of Casboult's marks came in the last quarter when it was junk time, nobody was going to take them as serious stats! The one and only thing Casboult could have done all day today was take some marks around the ground, and heading into the last quarter he had just one by my count and that one received a bronx cheer from the Carlton crowd!

"When big men play well, others follow" Bolton's own words, and yet he played Levi as our ruck! I'm betting it may never happen again!

And of course, Jones had a go in the ruck in the last quarter but didn't manage to get his hand near the ball.

True Jones had no taps, but won a center clearance and a stoppage clearance with his 2nd efforts.

But trying to list this lack of taps, during a Junk Time ruck rotation, as some sort of case to justify Levi's 80 other minutes of game time is a real stretch.

Anyway, I'm not wasting any more time on Casboult, he gives us nothing now and offers us nothing for the future. He's a list clogger and a coach killer. We cannot ask more from him, because he gives us all that he's got to offer, and it's simply not good enough! We are going to lose players because of his performances, if we haven't already, and you'll still be defending him like he is the messiah!

Go to sleep LP, the race is run...

Go to sleep LP, the race is run...

I can't, you've still got me laughing!

Woke this morning and hey look we're almost bottom of the ladder.
Must be Ground Hog Day.  >:( >:(

Woke this morning and hey look we're almost bottom of the ladder.
Must be Ground Hog Day.  >:( >:(

We may need to get used to it. And as a long time carlton supporter it kills me to say that.

We may need to get used to it. And as a long time carlton supporter it kills me to say that.

I was mentally exhausted after attending yesterday's game and it left me with zero expectations, except bad ones, for this year. I can't see the point of wasting any further time in analysing such a steaming pile of excrement. It fell below the threshold worthy of that imo. A long year ahead of us.

We may need to get used to it. And as a long time carlton supporter it kills me to say that.

As a long time Carlton supporter Barbs, I am used to it.
We are just making up numbers in an 18 team competition.

The membership department must be tearing their hair out. There were massive queues outside the membership tent yesterday and a win would have seen the momentum push even further vs Collingwood. 

Mark Porter would have been a positive!

Ill see you a Mark Porter and raise you an Adrian Deluca.

"When big men play well, others follow" Bolton's own words, and yet he played Levi as our ruck! I'm betting it may never happen again!

I'm pinning my hopes on the fact that BB and the MC didn't pick a ruckman to cover Kruze because they didn't have one. That is, Lobbe, Phillips and anyone else around the 200cm were not available and H would get slaughtered (literally) Please tell me that's the case. Its the only thing that will get me through the week. We look like we cant beat an egg at the moment, but we are playing the Filth and anything can happen. I'm no medico but I would doubt Kruze will play this week or any other week for while. He looked shot rnd 1, groins don't heal in a week or two.

Is setanta still playing local leagues? Maybe he could play ruck and dabble in the forward line.

Byrne butchers the footy at times when he panics, SPS won the ball ok but undercooks the footy leaving his teammates picking up half volleys, Murphy's disposal was horrific and more likely to hit a low flying plane than another player.
Thomas does use the ball ok but at his age doesnt get enough of it and Weitering these days is a shadow of the player he was in his first year when he did use the ball well, he is now slow timid and often under pressure when he kicks the ball... an example was when forward he had open space and could run further but didnt have the confidence and kicked the ball too early when he could have been more creative...

- Byrne is a poor replacement for Docherty. He will fly the flag, but he struggles to have a positive effect on the game.
- SPS is getting a little hard done by. Yes, some passes fell short yesterday, but if you are going to miss, miss short. A few of his teammates had the opposite problem and booted it over our heads to an uncontested opposition mark. SPS, is growing into the player we hope, give him a break.
- Murphy didn't have a great game, but when a lot of his game nowadays is getting the ball on the outside, and we don't have a ruckman playing, and you don't have a forward to kick too, he did ok.
- Thomas tries his guts out every game. Without fail he will get a big smother or tap on or some insignificant 1%er that inspires the team. Without his effort, i'd hate to think what the scoreline looks like each week.
- Weitering seems to be hot topic at the moment. I was the one who thrust him into the spotlight for all the 'wrong reasons', that have turned out to be true. So much so that they are even worse than i suggested was possible. He just needs to be dropped. Simple. I don't care if the opposition have 7 key forwards, you can't play him in this form at the moment. At this rate, he might match Tom Mitchells R1 disposal efforts by the time the season is over.

As a long time Carlton supporter Barbs, I am used to it.
We are just making up numbers in an 18 team competition.

That you have had to become used to it really saddens me.

How I miss the days of watching Carlton taking the field and being full of hope that they would crush the opposition with amazing displays of skills, strength and determination. In the past when I yelled at the tv it was because Kouta just took a huge mark, Rhys Jones was picking a fight (and winning) or Sticks was kicking goals with the ugliest kicks you'd ever see. I used to have a few beers to celebrate a great win which included grand finals. Yesterday I spent most of the match yelling at the tv like it would somehow encourage players to run harder (or at all), to stop kicking long to congested areas, to display basic skills most VFL players can muster or simply revert back to tactics like good old fashioned manning up instead of guarding a zone or whatever we call it now. Now its like I have to work through a 6 pack just make being a supporter for 3 hours bearable.

Next week has me really worried. On current form Collingwood are going to run out big winners and that must still kill any true blue-blooded Carlton.

I foresee us going into our defensive shells again and still losing. I don't know whether its Bolton's game plan to always have numbers back when we have the ball and then have everyone converge down the line instead of spreading or if the players are just not following instructions and running off hard enough. But it has to stop.

I'll offer my 2 cents (which is typically what my opinions are worth) on player selections - drop O'Shea, Mullet, Polson and maybe Lamb. Given the pies also don't play a tall forward line this might be the time to let Weiters have a development spell in the VFL too. Ins - Kreuzer (hopefully), Silvagni, Kerridge, Kennedy and Mckay. Yes I'd bring Mckay and Kreuzer. Charlie's mobility and run affords us the luxury of playing another 2 tall forwards and its necessary to stretch the opposition defence that way because neither Casboult or Mckay are enough on their own. If Special K doesn't come up I'd probably bring in Kerr or TDK too. If Byrne is out with an injury I'd also bring in Graham and let Garlett do the half back running.

I never thought I'd advocate for Kerridge and Graham to come in, but its probably the best option we have right now. I'm all for developing the young players, but having some stronger bodies and experience to be competitive against Collingwood is a priority. (sadly, we would still be running out with a young inexperienced team)

You could maybe bring in Graham or Kerridge but definitely not both. Too similar / slow / average kicks.

Hopefully Kennedy and Kreuzer are back and settles the team down a bit.

Dow might have a spell.

You could maybe bring in Graham or Kerridge but definitely not both. Too similar / slow / average kicks.

Hopefully Kennedy and Kreuzer are back and settles the team down a bit.

Dow might have a spell.

Not ideal, but better than Polson, O'Shea and Mullet.

Its also worrying that we're pinning our hopes on Kennedy - he turns 21 this week and has only 20 games under his belt (including about 20 minutes with us). I do think he'll work out but he is still developing.

Is that the bloke we persist with as our KPF because he's useful as a 2nd ruck?

Is that some cruel joke from the club to match up with the "Claim your Shame" ads they run on the scoreboard, part of the comedians campaign maybe?

I've always maintained that Casboult should not be considered a 2nd ruck as his stats are average in the ruck. It also suits Kreuzer better to ruck the majority of the game.

I've also been very vocal in the need to find someone better than Casboult up forward as he simply cannot be relied upon.

So baring that in mind, i don't attribute the loss to Casboult and think he should get an exemption for being played out of position.

Instead, i take aim at 2 places.
1. Stephen Silvagni...
Many people have pointed out how thin we are in ruck stocks and thought the recruitement of at least a couple of ruckmen was a given. We got 1 and 1 only. Taking our total up to 3, with 2 of them being injury prone.
So what happens in R1, we lose our #1 ruckman, our #2 ruckman has also been injured. Our #3 has been injured also. Our #4??? Well that would be our #1 key forward as well...who incidently isn't good enough for that role either.

2. Brendan Bolton...
Despite being hamstrung somewhat by the chess pieces handed to him by SOS, he still manages to make matters worse by picking the wrong ones on game day....and playing the ones he has in wrong positions. I would love for him to come out and explain the 'logic' he has used in picking the team so far as it is either...
a) Too smart for any of us to work out
b) As inept as we suggest it is.

Lets give him the benefit of the doubt and suggest it is 'a'. We just got thumped by a nothing team, so perhaps its too smart for the players to work out too......or most likely, its simply not option 'a' at all.

Yes, some players played bad and some players played good, but all of them were trying to push $**t up hill because of who else they ran out on the ground with.

Most teams have a Murphy type player.

None of them are made captain.

I don't think they do. At least, not in the senior side. They might have them as semi-permanent VFL players who get called up when their possession stats demand it or when others get injured, but are then just as quickly demoted when their shortcomings are exposed in the big league.

That's the difference between Carlton and the rest.

Not an easy result to swallow given the hype around our pre-season form. We will know more in 6-8 weeks time assuming we are able to get our better players on the park. I still expect some much improved performances from this group over the coming weeks and hope yesterday was an aberration, time will tell.

Honey moon period over. Disgusting to think these guys are professionals and I send my money to them and they cant even execute basic skills, dopping sitters, cant hit a handball, cant watch your man for more than 30 secs without falling asleep.

Weitering seriously starting to rub me the wrong way, playing like a privileged kid born with some size, no eye of the tiger whatsoever. Look at how he reacted after his hit from an 18 year old and Cripps' reaction after being cleaned up by May. Too many VFL hacks etc. Bolton went speed banking on heavy legs from Gold Coast and got screwed. Bad day but feels like there will be many more this season, very deflating after last weeks promise.

We are a long way off and that's an understatement of some magnitude.  I'm not into list or coach bashing, but gee, I'm tempted

I'm no fan of the Polson 4 Krooz selection, but notwithstanding that, this game is the reality check we needed, on several fronts :

- older players who have outstayed their welcome - sorry Simmo, the jig is up. If Clarkson was coach, you would have departed at the end of 2016.

- younger players who got way ahead of themselves

- coaches who lack flexibility and the ability to think on the fly

-selectors who roll the dice and fail

- teams who underestimate the opposition and don't give them proper respect.

Think of it as the "AFL recession we had to have."

Amid the carnage and the ineptitude, there were few moments here and there that showed something. Take this with the Tigers game and the JLT series, and there are things to work with, and also things to work on.

Think of it as the "AFL recession we had to have."

I think we've had more than our fair share of them, why is this one any different?

I think we've had more than our fair share of them, why is this one any different?

Bolton can't be blamed for what happened before he got here, and we need to give him time and support to do what needs to be done. You know, like the proper clubs do.

Bolton can't be blamed for what happened before he got here, and we need to give him time and support to do what needs to be done. You know, like the proper clubs do.

As has been pointed out previously, Bolton has had as much time with the list as what Malthouse had. Arguably, he's had a lot more support behind him too.

I think we've had more than our fair share of them, why is this one any different?

I agree with Paul’s post above yours Krudds, in answer to your question... No one gets everything right all the time, maybe... maybe this is our “Geelong/Bomber Thompson” moment ?
Where the club internally (be it this week or end of a loonnnng season) sit down and take that good hard look in the mirror and not only resolve to do whatever they need to do, but actually do it !
Lessons to be learnt by all.

OK my cunning plan of sleeping on it and hoping it doesn't look quite as bad in the morning didn't work, we are just not very good, another bottom 4 finish coming up. We have problems that are clearly identifiable, question is how do we try to fix them? Firstly the ruck, if Kreuzer plays, which apparently is doubtful, problem fixed. If not, I would bring in McKay and share the ruck duties between Casboult, McKay and Jones. Keep rotating them and give Grundy different looks. He's more a skilful ruckman rather than a monster like Witts, so I think those three could have a chance of negaing his influence. Bring Kennedy back in if fit, we need him badly to bolster our midfield. Play Weitering as a key defender, match him against their slowest forward and let him play his game. Our small forwards were putrid yesterday, we had enough inside 50's to win, but every time the ball came to ground they waltzed it out under no pressure. I don't think we can play Wright and Thomas as small forwards together as we did for almost the entire game yesterday. Both are slow as treacle, and there just wasn't enough pressure there. Wright has shown he can hit the score board regularly, so we need to find another position for Thomas. Maybe as a small defender? We would need them to have a slow small forward though, and I don't think they have one. Maybe move Thomas to the wing? If Byrne is out injured I'd like to see Garlett given a chance to play that running half back role. I'd keep Cuningham and Mullett, they both showed a bit, even though both butchered it at times like most of their teammates

As has been pointed out previously, Bolton has had as much time with the list as what Malthouse had. Arguably, he's had a lot more support behind him too.

I have no desire to turn this into a Mick v Bolts thread. If we're sitting 1-7 in a couple of months, just like when Micky Blue Eyes was sacked, we can talk some more then.

As has been pointed out previously, Bolton has had as much time with the list as what Malthouse had. Arguably, he's had a lot more support behind him too.

Spot on.

Weitering...stays back (Marchbank/ Weitering -CHB FB)
Jones...roving back /follower (he's too loose to play one on one but he does provide contest and effort)
Casboult forward...not to ruck...to be replaced by McKay or Kerr sooner rather than later.
Persist with Silvagni
If Kreuzer's not available Lobbe or Phillips must come in.

Absolutely spot on. 

Levi in the ruck and Weiters to FF was like robbing Peter to crucify Paul.

Game was lost as soon as the match committee decided not to play an opponent who could at least reach high enough to provide a minor inconvenience to a 209 cm ruckman.

The suns waltzed out of the stoppages and penetrated our defence without the pressure any defence needs to have a chance.

Is that some cruel joke from the club to match up with the "Claim your Shame" ads they run on the scoreboard, part of the comedians campaign maybe?

If it's a joke; I don't get it.

Absolutely spot on. 

Levi in the ruck and Weiters to FF was like robbing Peter to crucify Paul.

Game was lost as soon as the match committee decided not to play an opponent who could at least reach high enough to provide a minor inconvenience to a 209 cm ruckman.

The suns waltzed out of the stoppages and penetrated our defence without the pressure any defence needs to have a chance.

Further to Lods's comment on Jones... it isn't that he is too loose... he is showing horrendous judgment of when to go at the ball and when to defend his opponent. He is getting it completely wrong, and has had his pants pulled down in his last 3 games.

That element of judgment is why he ended up on the scrap heap originally... if he keeps going like this he will be back there again pretty quick.

Absolutely spot on. 

Levi in the ruck and Weiters to FF was like robbing Peter to crucify Paul.

Game was lost as soon as the match committee decided not to play an opponent who could at least reach high enough to provide a minor inconvenience to a 209 cm ruckman.

The suns waltzed out of the stoppages and penetrated our defence without the pressure any defence needs to have a chance.

Agree totally.

That was pitiful. It started with Kruezer being out, with Poulson replacing him we weaken three positions, ruck, key forward and key back. Play de Koning who was listed as emergency and we only weaken one position. Both Levi and Weitering looked more comfortable when Jones played in the ruck. Sadly true

Weitering was a gun in his first season because he was give a key back position to be his own, he was drafted as a key back and because we have a glut of bigger backmen he has been sacrificed because he is the least worst option up forward. Very sad but also true

I know we have this "layered" approach to build the offensive game but why when the game is getting beyond us did we not play a 7 man backline like we have done for the past 2 years? I thought we did


Our skills we ordinary as a whole with only Fisher, SPS and Cripps able to hold their heads up. The rest looked like the ball was a piece of soap - the number of dropped marks and handpasses were exceed only by the number of fumbles and poor disposals.

Further to Lods's comment on Jones... it isn't that he is too loose... he is showing horrendous judgment of when to go at the ball and when to defend his opponent. He is getting it completely wrong, and has had his pants pulled down in his last 3 games.

That element of judgment is why he ended up on the scrap heap originally... if he keeps going like this he will be back there again pretty quick.

i think the honeymoon is over for Jones.

What's with the laughable efforts of players who chase and catch an opponent who is running with the ball (Lynch on at least two occasions and other players as well) only to push them in the back or just apply a bump.

Tackling is obviously not one of strengths but the players should at least know that they should try. Byrne's effort against Lynch in the 1st quarter could possibly be excused because he is Irish and nobody has bothered to teach him the rules but, if that is the case, they can claim the shame (whatever the hell that means).

The only performances that were even more ignorant were produced by fans who were baying for free kicks for incorrect disposal when our players did not tackle their opponent.

Why were they ALL so flat yesterday.

They ALL looked tired and lethRGIC?

Was training too heavy last week?

i think the honeymoon is over for Jones.

He has never excelled in man-on-man contests in his limited time as a defender.

Jones' main defensive strengths are having the speed to get to a contest; adjusting to the ball in flight and punching the crap out of it if he can't mark it. 

These strengths are taken away or reduced when our midfield imposes so little pressure that their opponents can deliver the ball to the advantage of their forwards. Pressure in the midfield leads to higher, more erratic kicks, which plays to the advantage of Jones as well as Marchbank and Weitering.

Bolton is a good educator of young players but a inexperienced match day coach and tactician IMO....also he seems to trouble learning from previous defeats....this game was a repeat of last years GC game at Etihad. It was the Lynch show and nothing changed, GC ran the same game plans they did then, clear out the forward line and have Lynch one on one with his opponent. We had no second player to help and if ever there was a time to play an extra player back it was yesterday.

Season was lost as soon as they allowed Marc Murphy to captain the club again. The worst captain in the history of the game.

As I said last year, between him and Gibbs, who is thankfully not at the club anymore, we will never progress. They have a built in loser mentality and simple accept losing as part of their makeup. I would hate to see their win loss ratio from the start of their careers. It would in the vicinity of 33% at best.

We should have traded both at the end of last year. Marc's efforts yesterday were beyond unacceptable and this permeates through the entire club. I would love the match committee to drop both him a Weitering to make a statement to say that irrespective of who you think you are, you are not to get away with that sort of effort.

Both should be dropped for a minimum of 3 weeks to ensure they get it through their heads that if you want to play for the club, there is a minimum standard that is required. Of which Marc has never achieve through his tenure here. Absolute disgrace that he has been allowed to captain for so long. FFFFF****CK!

Does anyone here honestly think Marc commands respect from any of the playing group? I doubt any of the kids think, "gee I want to be like Marc". I dare say a sh*tload of sniggering goes on between them as they reflect on Marc's efforts week in week out.

i think the honeymoon is over for Jones.

I don't think it's Jones' fault at all. It's his fellow backmen - think Simmo, Plowman and Marchbank and Byrne - not helping him out....

Cheap cough ups in midfield - with many of the half backs upfield - sees Jones left helpless down there with no support.

You simply can't chop up the ball the way we did yesterday and expect anything but a flogging.

Buddy would have kicked 17 yesterday we were that bad.

Poor poor selections by the MC lost us the game before we started....

Can anyone give me one good reason why Polson was selected? (not to single the guy out but,....)

Why the Weiters to FF 'trick' was tried again....? My God, the bloke is lost in space wherever he plays preently. He appears unhappy, so what gives?

Why O'Shea was picked and seemed to be played forward?

Why Dow gets picked - he's all at sea - simply not ready for senior footy.

Was Harry fit? He should have played....

As for Captain Cough Up - have I ever seen 30 more useless possessions....?

Why did our ball movement revert to crazily slow ineptitude? The Sunds flooded back every time and we bombed it into a stacked backline - just realy, really dumb football.

Bolton really needs to learn to develop some Plan Bs and Plan Cs.

He looked clueless yesteday quite frankly.

He has never excelled in man-on-man contests in his limited time as a defender.

Jones' main defensive strengths are having the speed to get to a contest; adjusting to the ball in flight and punching the crap out of it if he can't mark it. 

These strengths are taken away or reduced when our midfield imposes so little pressure that their opponents can deliver the ball to the advantage of their forwards. Pressure in the midfield leads to higher, more erratic kicks, which plays to the advantage of Jones as well as Marchbank and Weitering.

Indeed. And teams have become more aware of Jones' strengths and weaknesses as a defender. Last week Richmond shepherded him out of most marking contests, often well before the ball was 50 m away, not just 10 or 15 m.

This week he was one out against Lynch a lot, and often left in the position where he had to judge whether to go for the ball or stay with his man. He was caught out and Lynch got easy goals. In fact, Jones kept Lynch to 4 marks for the day and only 1 of those was contested. (And Jones should have got a free kick for having his head removed, but that is another tale.)

There is certainly a place for Jones, as he still can produce some of the best inspirational play that we see each week. But he is now a marked man.

If we had a bit more choice in our defence, things would be easier. But form and fitness have robbed us of our defensive flexibility. With either Alex Silvagni or Sam Rowe in, our tall defence then has the options. Both of those are better at the body on body stuff. That frees up Jones to take the 2nd forward and be a more attacking option and/or 3rd man up without being shepherded out as much.

Eventually Weitering will take that role, but he needs to rediscover himself and not be the primary defensive defender.

At the moment Plowman seems off the boil and Marchbank isn't being very physical. His interceptions are great and his game against Richmond was good, but he has to work on beating an opponent. Too many of our defenders are 'run off' types. We need a 'lock down' defender as well.

Agree with most of that, but I don't blame the coach for highly paid professional players being unable to execute a 20 metre kick or 3 metre handball to a teammate when under little or no pressure. That happened too many times to count yesterday. I also don't blame the coach for dozens and dozens of fumbles, simple dropped marks etc. And i don't understand the vitriol towards Murphy. He worked harder and performed better than almost all of his teammates yesterday. Yes he wasn't perfect, but he at least gave us something. The problems are elsewhere, starting with having too many players not currently up to AFL standard

I don't think it's Jones' fault at all. It's his fellow backmen - think Simmo, Plowman and Marchbank and Byrne - not helping him out....

Cheap cough ups in midfield - with many of the half backs upfield - sees Jones left helpless down there with no support.

You simply can't chop up the ball the way we did yesterday and expect anything but a flogging.

Buddy would have kicked 17 yesterday we were that bad.

Very true. Our defensive pressure all over the ground needs a lot of improvement. Richmond, Western Bulldogs, etc. show the way in that regard. Their pressure makes goals. Our lack of pressure donates goals.

Agree with most of that, but I don't blame the coach for highly paid professional players being unable to execute a 20 metre kick or 3 metre handball to a teammate when under little or no pressure. That happened too many times to count yesterday. I also don't blame the coach for dozens and dozens of fumbles, simple dropped marks etc. And i don't understand the vitriol towards Murphy. He worked harder and performed better than almost all of his teammates yesterday. Yes he wasn't perfect, but he at least gave us something. The problems are elsewhere, starting with having too many players not currently up to AFL standard

x 2

Why were they ALL so flat yesterday.

They ALL looked tired and lethRGIC?

Was training too heavy last week?

Agree. We noticed Wright especially who seemed to be dragging his arse around. We thought he was injured. He got a little better as the game wore on.

Agree. We noticed Wright especially who seemed to be dragging his arse around. We thought he was injured. He got a little better as the game wore on.

I seem to remember him getting a knock on the leg either early yesterday or last week.

He has never excelled in man-on-man contests in his limited time as a defender.

Jones' main defensive strengths are having the speed to get to a contest; adjusting to the ball in flight and punching the crap out of it if he can't mark it. 

These strengths are taken away or reduced when our midfield imposes so little pressure that their opponents can deliver the ball to the advantage of their forwards. Pressure in the midfield leads to higher, more erratic kicks, which plays to the advantage of Jones as well as Marchbank and Weitering.

Time will tell whether I've gone too early or not, but the question remains - why is he the last line of defence if that's not his go ?

My concern with Jones is that he's either great or crap - he's either a reborn defender and the talk of the town, or else he gets both undies and pants pulled down by blokes kicking bags on him.

I seem to remember him getting a knock on the leg either early yesterday or last week.

Ah! Thanks K. He looked well below par for some time. I didn't see the knock and wondered why the hell he'd been selected.

Murphy got 30 possessions with no Carlton ruckmen of any sort, and he played 93% game time in the center! :o

What are you smoking?

He was garbage today.
His kicking has gone backwards at a great rate.
His physical presence is as always non existent.

Oh and I didn’t see that white line fever you claim Weitering has?

He was garbage today.
His kicking has gone backwards at a great rate.
His physical presence is as always non existent.

x10.

He's stopped kicking through the ball. He's a liability presently, quite frankly.

I don't think there was a greater turnover merchant than Smurf yesterday.

Maybe tired being a new Dad?

Further to Lods's comment on Jones... it isn't that he is too loose... he is showing horrendous judgment of when to go at the ball and when to defend his opponent. He is getting it completely wrong, and has had his pants pulled down in his last 3 games.

That element of judgment is why he ended up on the scrap heap originally... if he keeps going like this he will be back there again pretty quick.

I wonder if he really is, or if part of it is that when we've Docherty had down back, there is more organisation, and someone to cover Jones's man when he goes attacking the ball.
They highlighted one particular moment yesterday on the telecast where  Lynch was left in the pocket on his Pat Malone. Initially they were grilling Jones for leaving him, but when they camera angle was changed, he went forward to attack as there were 2 uncovered blokes forward, and no one dropped back onto Lynch when he did so.

I wonder if he really is, or if part of it is that when we've Docherty had down back, there is more organisation, and someone to cover Jones's man when he goes attacking the ball.

They highlighted one particular moment yesterday on the telecast where  Lynch was left in the pocket on his Pat Malone. Initially they were grilling Jones for leaving him, but when they camera angle was changed, he went forward to attack as there were 2 uncovered blokes forward, and no one dropped back onto Lynch when he did so.

Finally someone else noticing the truth about what is happening all over the ground!

We've got players who have lost the balance between attack and defence, Paul Roos highlighted it, Bolton admitted it and it hasn't yet been corrected.

Smarter kids like Weitering and SoJ do not have the experience to deal with this situation, they have the footy smarts and see what is happening and drop their heads because they get disheartened. Older heads like Daisy, Ed. Curnow, Plowman and Murphy keep plugging away, but fans pot them when with the football they try some miracle disposal to make up for all their out of position team-mates.

The real bad eggs are the guys who are doing the turnovers without being under pressure, the guys who are pushing forward like lunatics then efficiently handing the ball back to the opposition from a clear unpressurised disposal, then burning team-mates by pointing fingers at the blokes around them who are left to clean up the mess outnumbered and out of position exactly as Deag described.

I'm not expecting every player to be 100% efficient, but if you roll the dice you have to press equally hard both ways and only a handful of our list do it. Blokes like Daisy, Murphy and Ed.Curnow work the hardest workers, they are not the ones you want to be highlighting. You need to start looking at the names that seem to be missing from the chain of play, not the ones who are deeply involved in it!

Another problem we have, we have too many players who let opponents jog past without any pressure, when you contest with someone win or lose that opponent shouldn't be free to join the next contest unhindered. If you can't get to the next contest take them out with you, harass them at every opportunity and hinder their progress!

We've way too many of those finger pointers, who run like cut snakes forward and then jog backwards after missing a target, some of them are quite senior and it's not the ones necessarily getting all the supporter attention. A couple of them keep getting pats on the back for "good games", off the back of when they dramatically get back and help in only 1 or 2 out of every 5 cases, the fans ignore the times they decide not to help!

We've got a bunch of blokes struggling to keep their AFL careers afloat(boat anchors), we've seen this and we've surrounded them with the talented kids to try and save them, all that is really happening is that the kids are being dragged under with the boat anchors! Half our supporter base sees this happening and blames the kid for not being a good enough swimmer!

Finally someone else noticing the truth about what is happening all over the ground!

We've got players who have lost the balance between attack and defence, Paul Roos highlighted it, Bolton admitted it and it hasn't yet been corrected.

Smarter kids like Weitering and SoJ do not have the experience to deal with this situation, they have the footy smarts and see what is happening and drop their heads because they get disheartened. Older heads like Daisy, Ed. Curnow, Plowman and Murphy keep plugging away, but fans pot them when with the football they try some miracle disposal to make up for all their out of position team-mates.

The real bad eggs are the guys who are doing the turnovers without being under pressure, the guys who are pushing forward like lunatics then efficiently handing the ball back to the opposition from a clear unpressurised disposal, then burning team-mates by pointing fingers at the blokes around them who are left to clean up the mess outnumbered and out of position exactly as Deag described.

I'm not expecting every player to be 100% efficient, but if you roll the dice you have to press equally hard both ways and only a handful of our list do it. Blokes like Daisy, Murphy and Ed.Curnow work the hardest workers, they are not the ones you want to be highlighting. You need to start looking at the names that seem to be missing from the chain of play, not the ones who are deeply involved in it!

Another problem we have, we have too many players who let opponents jog past without any pressure, when you contest with someone win or lose that opponent shouldn't be free to join the next contest unhindered. If you can't get to the next contest take them out with you, harass them at every opportunity and hinder their progress!

We've way too many of those finger pointers, who run like cut snakes forward and then jog backwards after missing a target, some of them are quite senior and it's not the ones necessarily getting all the supporter attention. A couple of them keep getting pats on the back for "good games", off the back of when they dramatically get back and help in only 1 or 2 out of every 5 cases, the fans ignore the times they decide not to help!

We've got a bunch of blokes struggling to keep their AFL careers afloat(boat anchors), we've seen this and we've surrounded them with the talented kids to try and save them, all that is really happening is that the kids are being dragged under with the boats anchors! Half our supporter base sees this happening and blames the kid for not being a good enough swimmer!

Who are you taking about? Simo and who else?

I'm not expecting every player to be 100% efficient, but if you roll the dice you have to press equally hard both ways and only a handful of our list do it. Blokes like Daisy, Murphy and Ed.Curnow work the hardest

So Murphy is in the top three hardest workers?
Seriously, that is BS.

Season was lost as soon as they allowed Marc Murphy to captain the club again. The worst captain in the history of the game.

As I said last year, between him and Gibbs, who is thankfully not at the club anymore, we will never progress. They have a built in loser mentality and simple accept losing as part of their makeup. I would hate to see their win loss ratio from the start of their careers. It would in the vicinity of 33% at best.

We should have traded both at the end of last year. Marc's efforts yesterday were beyond unacceptable and this permeates through the entire club. I would love the match committee to drop both him a Weitering to make a statement to say that irrespective of who you think you are, you are not to get away with that sort of effort.

Both should be dropped for a minimum of 3 weeks to ensure they get it through their heads that if you want to play for the club, there is a minimum standard that is required. Of which Marc has never achieve through his tenure here. Absolute disgrace that he has been allowed to captain for so long. FFFFF****CK!

Does anyone here honestly think Marc commands respect from any of the playing group? I doubt any of the kids think, "gee I want to be like Marc". I dare say a sh*tload of sniggering goes on between them as they reflect on Marc's efforts week in week out.

\

2Marc Murphy   16   14   30   7   0   2   1   3   1   0   114

Hardly a bad game.  But I agree, as captain, it is a grub. 

I've digested this a little since last night.  This post is going to be a little more glass half empty than not.

1.  Gold Coast might turn out a much better side than anyone thinks they are this year.  They have good key position players in good form and have enough players around the ground that are 100 games or thereabouts to touch us up. 

2.  Sometimes you struggle after a physical match.  Last week against the Tigers was a better effort than we thought we'd give and they hit hard at every opportunity.   Young sides will always struggle.   I've once been told that the hall mark of a good side is how you're opposition rebound next week.  We didn't bounce back well after the reigning premiers.   Fair enough too.

3.  Even our better players had poor days at the office.   That would be one of cripps lesser games as well as most of the guys we rely on most of the time.

4.  we have quite a few underdone players by my estimate.   I'd say we are relying on the likes of O'Shea, Garlett and mullet much earlier than we would have liked and these guys were recruited for insurance over anything else and unfortunately we have needed them early.  That is confirmed by yesterday's match selection and the fact that the team not playing seniors has been touched up two weeks in a row and quite easily.

Now despite the fact that we picked a side that had basically no hope,  and that as soon as the late change was announced I was filled with dread, we played a make shift ruck one of the worst team balances possible and everyone had the fumbles and never played the sort of footy that even looked like winning this game, we somehow got within three goals of the lead halfway through the third quarter.  I'm not sure but I think they paid another soft free kick to gc who got an armchair ride all day to help kill any momentum we had built and that was all she wrote.

I'm going to choose to ignore our selection at this point.  It's not like there was much different we could have gone with and all things considered may vs McKay wouldn't have been much good for McKay's development at this level, and we would have put him in the ruck out of necessity at some point. 

Basically,  I'm keeping my powder dry.  Going with the glass half full approach and appreciating that as crap as weitering has been he needs to play as a third year key position player who can play much better footy than he is currently.

1.  Gold Coast might turn out a much better side than anyone thinks they are this year.  They have good key position players in good form and have enough players around the ground that are 100 games or thereabouts to touch us up. 

I was actually thinking this yesterday...I remember many years back we'd lost a game in the early rounds we were expected to win comfortably. Some of the players made the excuse that the team we played was actually better than most folk thought.
That got a bit of a chuckle but...
That opposition side went on to be right in it at the pointy end of the season.
We'll see how GC go in coming weeks and this result mightn't look so bad in hindsight.

(Still looks pretty bad at the moment!) :(

1.  Gold Coast might turn out a much better side than anyone thinks they are this year.  They have good key position players in good form and have enough players around the ground that are 100 games or thereabouts to touch us up. 

Could be that GC have improved more than us, see this is the thing all teams can improve including us but its the level of improvement, are we slipping behind even though we think we are improving....

I can't say for sure, but if that effort yesterday is improving, we may as well pack up and go to Tassie.
GC were not great. It wasn't that they played us out of the game. Sure, they were better, but not great.
Even if we came out and beat Adelaide next week games like that one yesterday show that we are not improving like we should be.

Just watching the Dogs v. the Eagles - almost a replay of our game!

1.  Gold Coast might turn out a much better side than anyone thinks they are this year.  They have good key position players in good form and have enough players around the ground that are 100 games or thereabouts to touch us up. 

Could be that GC have improved more than us, see this is the thing all teams can improve including us but its the level of improvement, are we slipping behind even though we think we are improving....

I think that may be where some of us get a bit anxious.
We've been sold this slow rebuild that when it bears fruit will see us with a sustained period of success.
Problem is there are no guarantees....and we'll soon get envious of the sides that shoot past us and wonder why we cant do the same.

I can't say for sure, but if that effort yesterday is improving, we may as well pack up and go to Tassie.
GC were not great. It wasn't that they played us out of the game. Sure, they were better, but not great.
Even if we came out and beat Adelaide next week games like that one yesterday show that we are not improving like we should be.

Agree. They were clearly too good for us but we were our own worst enemy imo.

1.  Gold Coast might turn out a much better side than anyone thinks they are this year.  They have good key position players in good form and have enough players around the ground that are 100 games or thereabouts to touch us up. 

Could be that GC have improved more than us, see this is the thing all teams can improve including us but its the level of improvement, are we slipping behind even though we think we are improving....

Ablett and Eade were big distractions for the Suns last season, that sent their season off the rails. Their list is not stellar, but good enough to sneak into finals IMO. No 2 Metre Peter yesterday either. Thank Christ.

Gold Coast are at best an average team with a standout tall forward. They didn't win, we lost.

Every missed kick, every poor hand pass, every fumble when not under pressure, every missed tackle and every player who didn't push hard both ways was a nail in our own coffin.

Gold Coast are at best an average team with a standout tall forward. They didn't win, we lost.

Every missed kick, every poor hand pass, every fumble when not under pressure, every missed tackle and every player who didn't push hard both ways was a nail in our own coffin.

x2
They were given a free day out by us.

I think that may be where some of us get a bit anxious.
We've been sold this slow rebuild that when it bears fruit will see us with a sustained period of success.
Problem is there are no guarantees....and we'll soon get envious of the sides that shoot past us and wonder why we cant do the same.

Rebuild has to take into account what other teams are doing too...you cant have other lowly teams beating you and still say you are improving...
The fact is we got beat by a team who no one rates, who are usually garbage away from Qld and who knocked us over last season the same way with the same players
doing the damage. This was a bad loss for many reasons and a set back IMO.....Murphy's explanation that we got ahead of ourselves  is unsatisfactory as well,  does he think we have been dominating so much that we were in a position to sit back and dwell on the glory of a honorable loss to the Tigers and expect GC to roll over based on media hype?

Footy is a results business, comparisons are part of the game and if your direct competitors are whipping your ar$e then its time to take stock early rather than let things drag on and pretending its all ok hiding under the banner of a slow rebuild....

Two things.

1.  We were dead last with a better team on the field three years ago.

2.  These guys essentially have built this side that beat us from 2011 onwards.   They have one of the games premier key forwards in his peak,  a raft of talent all between 50-150 games with a couple of elders in the 200+ club and played about 4 players that were essentially newbies.   Of those 4 players only two are relatively new to AFL with one of them being nick Holman.

They didn't go past us recently.   They have a serious coach for the first time in their lives and they are hot to trot.  We thought we went past them last year but the reality is we went backwards with the trading of Gibbs and when Charlie and cripps are 100-150 gamers that's when we will be where the Gold Coast is at yesterday. 

Reality gives you a smack in the face sometimes.   I think too many have been reading fly boys posts and had too large an expectation on this season because they think blokes that have shown a little bit are going to be seasoned performers.  In reality it takes seventy games to show someone's stuff and our first year rebuild players like weitering and Curnow are only just starting to approach fifty games.

Fair call. Also means we are still at least 3-4 years from being competitive?

Two things.

1.  We were dead last with a better team on the field three years ago.

2.  These guys essentially have built this side that beat us from 2011 onwards.   They have one of the games premier key forwards in his peak,  a raft of talent all between 50-150 games with a couple of elders in the 200+ club and played about 4 players that were essentially newbies.   Of those 4 players only two are relatively new to AFL with one of them being nick Holman.

They didn't go past us recently.   They have a serious coach for the first time in their lives and they are hot to trot.  We thought we went past them last year but the reality is we went backwards with the trading of Gibbs and when Charlie and cripps are 100-150 gamers that's when we will be where the Gold Coast is at yesterday. 

Reality gives you a smack in the face sometimes.   I think too many have been reading fly boys posts and had too large an expectation on this season because they think blokes that have shown a little bit are going to be seasoned performers.  In reality it takes seventy games to show someone's stuff and our first year rebuild players like weitering and Curnow are only just starting to approach fifty games.

Fact.. a lot of supporters wouldnt know who half the GC players were they are that low profile ......Witts and Lyons who beat us up in the middle are no big name players, we have the more senior well thought of players. ie Murphy, Curnow Cripps They all have more games experience than their opponents.....
Dew is a novice senior coach, Bolton and he are assistants both from big successful clubs but Bolton has more experience as a senior coach........Lynch is their only marquee player with Ablett gone...

Could be worse, we could be the Bulldogs..lol. Something isn't right there.

Could be worse, we could be the Bulldogs..lol. Something isn't right there.

Jim, they are no good off the field...recruiters didnt get on and have all left, new CEO's every 5 mins and Peter Gordon has taken on a Kim Jong method of ruling.....
Beveridge is still a good coach IMO but has got a bit too cute and ahead of himself moving players around everywhere and they need to get back to what they were doing.
They are self destructing from within and I'd say it wont change till Gordon quits or is pushed out and they can start again....

1.  Gold Coast might turn out a much better side than anyone thinks they are this year.  They have good key position players in good form and have enough players around the ground that are 100 games or thereabouts to touch us up. 

Gold Coast may be the best side in the league at the end of the year (i doubt it though) but we looked a lot better against the best team of last year only a week prior.

Even if they are the best side in the league, effort is something we can control...and it wasn;t there.
Also, despite some perceived pressure, skill level is something we can control...and it also wasn;t there.

Following on from all of the above, we had more inside 50's than they did (67-50!), yet never looked in the contest.

Regardless of how good Gold Coast may or may not be, we were pathetic.

Bolton is a good educator of young players but a inexperienced match day coach and tactician IMO....also he seems to trouble learning from previous defeats....this game was a repeat of last years GC game at Etihad. It was the Lynch show and nothing changed, GC ran the same game plans they did then, clear out the forward line and have Lynch one on one with his opponent. We had no second player to help and if ever there was a time to play an extra player back it was yesterday.

Missing his mentor?
As much as some weren't keen on Neil Craig, his role may have been another factor.
No doubt there are another 99 contributing factors. Some we might guess, others will never be aired.

I'm trying to keep my eye on the big picture.
- 3rd yr into rebuild with a novice coach and changing coaching staff
- Some quality in with some ordinary temporary patches added to existing but aging quality. Unproven middle tier
- loss of top shelf players in ruck, middle (Gibbs), and back (Doc)
- unlucky run of seasonal injury and form issues
- some early signs of the big plan starting to coalesce
- a couple more pieces still to come (?)
- time for the group to gel and practice the various game plans

I hope this all comes together in the next year. If it does we should be on the up 2019 and the following several years.
In the meantime, I'm glad it's Easter because chocolate = comfort ????

Go Blues

Fair call. Also means we are still at least 3-4 years from being competitive?

Not competitive,  but challenging for a flag.  This "build" we embarked on has been about keeping us off the bottom of the ladder whilst all our players who are "not up to it" start to move on.

It gets worse.  We start to lose blokes like Murphy,  Simpson and the like over the next couple of years.  These guys are our most able to compete players at the moment (4 quarters week in and week out for an entire season). 

@EB1, put the two twenty twos that ran out yesterday next to each other and you start realising just how under rated gc are.

Swallow or cripps?
Martin or Wright?
Lynch or Curnow?
Witts or Levi?
Harbrow or Simpson?
May or Jones?

If you picked one side out of both our twenty twos yesterday to play next week, Gold Coast would Have more players than us in their best 22 by two to one, because at the moment we are promising but not delivering. 

@kruddler,  I didn't see many who contested worse than they did the previous week, we just aren't big and strong enough yet.

As has been pointed out previously, Bolton has had as much time with the list as what Malthouse had. Arguably, he's had a lot more support behind him too.

I call crap.

Malthouse was given a side on the fringes of the top 8.   A kick away from a Prelim 12 month earlier.  It had Judd, Gibbs, Scotland, Murphy, Waite, Betts, Simpson, Henderson, Kruezer and co.   He was allowed to top up with Thomas.

Bolton was given 4-18 side that had palmed off a lot of it's A grade talent.   Had to trade Gibbs and did so for the long term future of the club.   No way would Malthouse would have traded the long term for the short term.

As disappointing as Saturday was it's ridiculous to compare two.

AFL legends blast ‘deplorable’ skill level

Footy legends Wayne Carey and Paul Roos have taken an axe to the current game, describing what they’ve seen this weekend as a disgrace.

Carey said outside of the rematch between last year’s grand finalists Richmond and Adelaide, the skill level on show had been “deplorable”.

“St Kilda couldn’t hit the side of a barn,” Carey told Triple M.

He also criticised Carlton for missing targets with two metre handballs and dropping chest marks. “Some of the skill level this weekend has not even been at VFL level, below that,” Carey said.

“Players today cannot kick on their opposite foot. A lot of people applaud when they’re running straight at the goal and they’ve got no left foot and they do a checkside and everyone says what a great goal. What a load of crap. He should have kicked it on his left foot.

“That’s what astounds me. These elite, professional players are no good on their opposite side.”

Roos said it was the long-term effect of the increasing amount of time kids were spending doing their homework and playing computer games instead of kicking a footy.

“If you’re a kid now you’re doing half, a third, a quarter — whatever it may be — of the kicking (we did),” Roos said. “When they come into the game at AFL level they haven’t had the background of skill ... it’s a numbers game.”

https://www.triplem.com.au/sport/afl/news/wayne-carey-and-paul-roos-reckon-the-current-skill-level-in-the-afl-is-no-good?station=Sydney

I call crap.

Malthouse was given a side on the fringes of the top 8.   A kick away from a Prelim 12 month earlier.  It had Judd, Gibbs, Scotland, Murphy, Waite, Betts, Simpson, Henderson, Kruezer and co.   He was allowed to top up with Thomas.

Bolton was given 4-18 side that had palmed off a lot of it's A grade talent.   Had to trade Gibbs and did so for the long term future of the club.   No way would Malthouse would have traded the long term for the short term.

As disappointing as Saturday was it's ridiculous to compare two.

You can call crap. The points you raised as to why actually had nothing to do with why the comments were made.

I never suggested Mick showed more improvement than Bolton.
I never suggested the list was in a better/worse state before/after Micks tenure.

Simply drawing the comparisons that both were coach for a similar period and the natives start beating their drums when results don't show an incline.
IMO Bolton has had the whole team behind him, whereas Mick was at least partially hamstrung. He wouldn't have had Murphy as captain for one. Since your captain sets the tone for the whole team, its a significant yet often overlooked issue within the club...and that spans back further than Mick as well.

My only issue with Bolton up to this point in time has been his inability to pick a side that can actually win.

Others have been more scathing in regards to Bolton than that.

Reality gives you a smack in the face sometimes.   I think too many have been reading fly boys posts and had too large an expectation on this season because they think blokes that have shown a little bit are going to be seasoned performers.  In reality it takes seventy games to show someone's stuff

That's an 'average'. Plenty of players perform vey well indeed well before 70 games...

What was witnessed yesterday was deplorable on many levels - skill, effort, intensity, lack of leadership etc.

If you don't have high expectations - in whatever walk of life - well you aren't going to get far..

I'm happy to chalk yesterday up to an aberration - both by the players and by the coaching staff.

You can call crap. The points you raised as to why actually had nothing to do with why the comments were made.

I never suggested Mick showed more improvement than Bolton.
I never suggested the list was in a better/worse state before/after Micks tenure.

Simply drawing the comparisons that both were coach for a similar period and the natives start beating their drums when results don't show an incline.
IMO Bolton has had the whole team behind him, whereas Mick was at least partially hamstrung. He wouldn't have had Murphy as captain for one. Since your captain sets the tone for the whole team, its a significant yet often overlooked issue within the club...and that spans back further than Mick as well.

My only issue with Bolton up to this point in time has been his inability to pick a side that can actually win.

Others have been more scathing in regards to Bolton than that.

So the only comparisons we are making is that they have coach for the same period.   Fair enough.  Makes sense.

Mick was hamstrung?   How?   He didn't get his Captain?   He got everything thing else.   Coaches.   High Performance Team.   Players he wanted.    Hamstrung?   Please.   You are grossly over valuing the role of the Captain.   There are no rules stopping anyone else provding leadership.   

I think you are overrating the guys running around for the Bullants getting beaten most weeks by 8 goals.    No magic solutions there, unless you want to take a backward step like Flyboy and play Graham and Kerridge 

Gotta love the Dogs keeping us off the bottom of the ladder

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/865/39345107900_de80452956_m.jpg)

Good news everyone!  I won't be needing these ...

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/821/40442513264_770842b2df_n.jpg)

Anyone watching the Dogs vs Wet Toast game today would have seen a pattern very similar to our own game.

The comments from Leigh Matthews about the Dogs were accordingly ultra-relevant to Carlton. The attacking run without defensive accountability, the frequent sight of three or four Wet Toast forwards goal side of Dogs defenders left floundering up the field after a turnover.

I've never seen a season like this, the tactics are at best junior, the skill sets match it up.

It's the most unaccountable football I have ever viewed at AFL level. Maybe it's good for TV, but it's rubbish to watch at the ground, and pathetic for professionals to dish up!

Is this some AFL version of the AFLW directive?

So the only comparisons we are making is that they have coach for the same period.   Fair enough.  Makes sense.

Mick was hamstrung?   How?   He didn't get his Captain?   He got everything thing else.   Coaches.   High Performance Team.   Players he wanted.    Hamstrung?   Please.   You are grossly over valuing the role of the Captain.   There are no rules stopping anyone else provding leadership.   

I think you are overrating the guys running around for the Bullants getting beaten most weeks by 8 goals.    No magic solutions there, unless you want to take a backward step like Flyboy and play Graham and Kerridge

i never mentioned Graham Shakin.

Kerridge was ripping it up when given the chance late last season.....and had better DE than both Smurf and Gibba.

Makes no sense to have Dow running around in the 1s like a headless chook when you know Kerridge will get you 25+ decent possessions.

Dow and Polson need to earn their spots.

Quite frankly, would prefer Sam to Murphy right now.

AFL legends blast ‘deplorable’ skill level

Footy legends Wayne Carey and Paul Roos have taken an axe to the current game, describing what they’ve seen this weekend as a disgrace.

Carey said outside of the rematch between last year’s grand finalists Richmond and Adelaide, the skill level on show had been “deplorable”.

“St Kilda couldn’t hit the side of a barn,” Carey told Triple M.

He also criticised Carlton for missing targets with two metre handballs and dropping chest marks. “Some of the skill level this weekend has not even been at VFL level, below that,” Carey said.

“Players today cannot kick on their opposite foot. A lot of people applaud when they’re running straight at the goal and they’ve got no left foot and they do a checkside and everyone says what a great goal. What a load of crap. He should have kicked it on his left foot.

“That’s what astounds me. These elite, professional players are no good on their opposite side.”

Roos said it was the long-term effect of the increasing amount of time kids were spending doing their homework and playing computer games instead of kicking a footy.

“If you’re a kid now you’re doing half, a third, a quarter — whatever it may be — of the kicking (we did),” Roos said. “When they come into the game at AFL level they haven’t had the background of skill ... it’s a numbers game.”

https://www.triplem.com.au/sport/afl/news/wayne-carey-and-paul-roos-reckon-the-current-skill-level-in-the-afl-is-no-good?station=Sydney

I'm sure kids spend less time with the footy than in years gone past. But other factors surely must play a part - rule changes, faster, fitter players, which means the ball carrier executes under greater pressure.........I'm sure there's others.

I'm sure kids spend less time with the footy than in years gone past. But other factors surely must play a part - rule changes, faster, fitter players, which means the ball carrier executes under greater pressure.........I'm sure there's others.

Fev is adamant it's because too many new footy's are being used. I suppose his career spanned both era's of football. One with a single ball used for a full game and the other with bags of balls at each end of the ground.

After the first couple of years of using bags of balls I believe the AFL required the manufacturer to artificially kick the balls in, they use some sort of giant tumbler to do this. But even so the bags full of balls still means that each ball is shiny new and slippery as all get out when they first enter play, they never really get scuffed up enough to become easily gripped!

I suppose the lack of mud and dirt also impacts this, the games are basically played on carpet with little on no abrasive particles!

Anyone watching the Dogs vs Wet Toast game today would have seen a pattern very similar to our own game.

The comments from Leigh Matthews about the Dogs were accordingly ultra-relevant to Carlton. The attacking run without defensive accountability, the frequent sight of three or four Wet Toast forwards goal side of Dogs defenders left floundering up the field after a turnover.

I've never seen a season like this, the tactics are at best junior, the skill sets match it up.

It's the most unaccountable football I have ever viewed at AFL level. Maybe it's good for TV, but it's rubbish to watch at the ground, and pathetic for professionals to dish up!

Is this some AFL version of the AFLW directive?

Lets go Man on Man ALL game ala Wayne Brittain against The Cheats

Fev is adamant it's because too many new footy's are being used. I suppose his career spanned both era's of football. One with a single ball used for a full game and the other with bags of balls at each end of the ground.

Hmm, Interesting. I never thought of that.

I don't think his kicking skills suffered too much though.

Hmm, Interesting. I never thought of that.

I don't think his kicking skills suffered too much though.

Actually, he first made the comment about balls not being "kicked in" when he was going through a kicking slump. I believe the following season the AFL also requested a slight shape change to the new balls to make the ends more rounded like a kicked in ball. But they are still slippery.

Also a couple of things that have changed. No bouncing the ball around the ground, probably not a big deal but back in the one ball days it would have made a difference. Secondly, when you use one ball non-stop it softens and warms up slightly, in the very same way tennis balls warm up during use. It's not a lot, but it's enough to change the way the ball feels and behaves.

So the only comparisons we are making is that they have coach for the same period.   Fair enough.  Makes sense.

I didn't bring it up first.

I was just implying that at a similar period in the not-so-distant past, when our team was performing similarly, our coach was a dead man walking.

Lods has been the one to suggest that Bolton won't last if this continues because...Carlton.

Mick was hamstrung?   How?   He didn't get his Captain?   He got everything thing else.   Coaches.   High Performance Team.   Players he wanted.    Hamstrung?   Please.   You are grossly over valuing the role of the Captain.   There are no rules stopping anyone else provding leadership.   

This is a dangerous game we are entering into, so lets just not go down there other to say, a simple call as captain was taken out of his hands.

I think you are overrating the guys running around for the Bullants getting beaten most weeks by 8 goals.    No magic solutions there, unless you want to take a backward step like Flyboy and play Graham and Kerridge

I'm overrating bullants players? How?? I've been the one who has been suggesting that our list has been a bottom4 list for a couple years now. Flyboy and co keep tell me we are finals bound.

I haven't called for Graham, or Kerridge.
I'm calling for kids ahead of them.
I'm calling for blokes who put in, Jack.

Let me ask you a question or 2.

Were you happy with our performance against Gold Coast?
Were you happy with our team selections leading up to that (before and after the Kreuzer stuff up)
Are you convinced we are heading in the right direction?

I haven't called for Graham, or Kerridge.
I'm calling for kids ahead of them.
I'm calling for blokes who put in, Jack.

No more boat anchors extending their careers at the expense of kids, just play the kid.

Were you happy with our team selections leading up to that (before and after the Kreuzer stuff up)

Don't call this a stuff up, there is no way they were caught of guard and phrasing it like it was some sort of misfortune that Kreuzer didn't get up allows the MC off the hook. They planned and instigated that team selection, media rumors were Kreuzer was never a chance and the media were right onto it all week long. So what happened yesterday wasn't an accident or a misfortune, it was deliberate!

i never mentioned Graham Shakin.

Kerridge was ripping it up when given the chance late last season.....and had better DE than both Smurf and Gibba.

Makes no sense to have Dow running around in the 1s like a headless chook when you know Kerridge will get you 25+ decent possessions.

Dow and Polson need to earn their spots.

Quite frankly, would prefer Sam to Murphy right now.

Don't agree.   This is not the 80's when you need to play 100 VFL games before your AFL debut.

Dow is going to learn a lot more from Cripps and Kruezer (when fit) in a AFL then he will in the VFL.   Kerridge will offer more in the short term, but playing him and Graham stops getting games into talented kids which will benefit the team in the long run.

Look.   In short our list is pox.   It's really bad and unbalanced.   How we started favourite against the Suns amazed me.

Have a look at our 22-26 year olds.   The guys on your list that should have reached 60-100 games plus and are consistent in thier output.

Casboult, Levi
Jones, Liam
Phillips, Andrew
Shaw, Matt (R)
Mullett, Aaron
O'Shea, Cameron
Lamb, Jed
Kerridge, Sam
Docherty, Sam
Graham, Nicholas
Plowman, Lachlan
Byrne, Ciaran
Cripps, Patrick
Lang, Darcy

Cripps and ????   Plowman.   Doc of course.   No need to back the truck over the wasted draft picks, but our core is made up of recycled players and very little talent.     This in the group that should be stepping up, not Dow, SPS, Fisher, Polson and Cunningham who should be showing signs of improvement.

The Suns.

Hall, Aaron
Thompson, Rory
May, Steven
Nicholls, Tom
Lyons, Jarryd
Day, Sam
Witts, Jarrod
Lynch, Tom
Swallow, David
Young, Aaron
Sexton, Alex
Lemmens, Sean
Lonergan, Jesse
Martin, Jack
Leslie, Jack
Holman, Nicholas (R)
Willis, Mackenzie (R)
Kolodjashnij, Kade
Miller, Touk
Weller, Lachlan

i never mentioned Graham Shakin.

Kerridge was ripping it up when given the chance late last season.....and had better DE than both Smurf and Gibba.

Makes no sense to have Dow running around in the 1s like a headless chook when you know Kerridge will get you 25+ decent possessions.

Dow and Polson need to earn their spots.

Quite frankly, would prefer Sam to Murphy right now.

Kerridge is one of the boat anchors, he offers us nothing for the long term future.

It's a blight on our club that we de-listed young players like Gowers and Holman, often to pick up players like Smedts, Palmer and Lamb and then keep guys like Kerridge, Casboult and Graham on the list for extended periods.

On Murphy, he could win a Brownlow and you'd bag him out, go and have a read of the Jim Park voting to understand how few share your opinion, then ask yourself why they don't bother debating you? Have a good look inside and wake up to yourself, your vitriol doesn't cut it as a valid argument!

Fev is adamant it's because too many new footy's are being used. I suppose his career spanned both era's of football. One with a single ball used for a full game and the other with bags of balls at each end of the ground.

After the first couple of years of using bags of balls I believe the AFL required the manufacturer to artificially kick the balls in, they use some sort of giant tumbler to do this. But even so the bags full of balls still means that each ball is shiny new and slippery as all get out when they first enter play, they never really get scuffed up enough to become easily gripped!

I suppose the lack of mud and dirt also impacts this, the games are basically played on carpet with little on no abrasive particles!

Funny the ball problem comes  up this week.
I think it was the Giants game where this was mentioned. The commentators said the players thought there was something wrong with the ball. Go figure- maybe there's something in Fev's comments.

Were you happy with our performance against Gold Coast?
Were you happy with our team selections leading up to that (before and after the Kreuzer stuff up)
Are you convinced we are heading in the right direction?

a)  No.   It was a poor performance.  Our forwardline was terrible.   No space.   No one creating space.   No one leading towards the ball carrier.   Best at this were Curnow, Thomas and Lamb.   Weitering was lost and just got in the way.   Not a forward, however with Marchbank and Jones we don't really need 3 talls.    Struggled for a match up, however for his development I would prefer to play him in the seniors.  

b)  None have really bothered me.    I would have liked to see McKay play much for the same reasons as Weittering.    I don't think he is ready, but the more games he and Curnow play in the same forwardline the better.   Silvagni I love but I not sure what role he plays in the modern game.   Not tall enough/Not quick enough.   Hard to find a similar type in any of the successful sides.

c)  List wise yes.   I like the influx of youth, but it was alway going to bring pain.   We (Carlton Supporters) piss and moan about Gibbs and Murphy, but they are class players and you can't expect the kids to step up and replace a Gibbs.    He will dominate at the Crows with Crouch (x2) and Sloane.    He will make dills like Spanner look silly.   Yeah we are better off without Gibbs and Murphy ;(

Kerridge is one of the boat anchors, he offers us nothing for the long term future.

It's a blight on our club that we de-listed young players like Gowers and Holman, often to pick up players like Smedts, Palmer and Lamb and then keep guys like Kerridge, Casboult and Graham on the list for extended periods.

On Murphy, he could win a Brownlow and you'd bag him out, go and have a read of the Jim Park voting to understand how few share your opinion, then ask yourself why they don't bother debating you? Have a good look inside and wake up to yourself, your vitriol doesn't cut it as a valid argument!

silly stuff Lp, past your bed time buddy.

Gowers - wtf...
Holman - yeah, arguably a bad call.

You know Palmer was a freebie as part of a bigger deal.

Kerridge is 24, no reason his best is not ahead of him.

Levi, have a chat to SOS ok?

Graham, back up.

Murphy, should nwver hve been made Captain - period - not his fault granted.

And many do agree with me.

nnn

silly stuff Lp, past your bed time buddy.

Gowers - wtf...
Holman - yeah, arguably a bad call.

You know Palmer was a freebie as part of a bigger deal.

Kerridge is 24, no reason his best is not ahead of him.

Levi, have a chat to SOS ok?

Graham, back up.

Murphy, should nwver hve been made Captain - period - not his fault granted.

And many do agree with me.

Need to sleep but still can't stop laughing, better than Hale priceless! ;D

Free, traded or retained they take up spots, and offer nada!

How many of those agreeing with you are existing only in your head? ;)

I suspect Casboult remains because he is basically no long term risk to the spots of Jack or Ben(Assuming Ben wants to be an AFL player.), nepotism at work perhaps?

nnn

Spit it out, faster the better, stop waiting for your army to arrive!

Like your work shakin. Your replies 266 and 269 generally sound quite reasonable to me.

The Crows aren't dumb. They would not offer 2 1st rounders plus some change backwards and forwards, without good reason.

Don't agree.   This is not the 80's when you need to play 100 VFL games before your AFL debut.

Dow is going to learn a lot more from Cripps and Kruezer (when fit) in a AFL then he will in the VFL.   Kerridge will offer more in the short term, but playing him and Graham stops getting games into talented kids which will benefit the team in the long run.

Look.   In short our list is pox.   It's really bad and unbalanced.   How we started favourite against the Suns amazed me.

Have a look at our 22-26 year olds.   The guys on your list that should have reached 60-100 games plus and are consistent in thier output.

Casboult, Levi
Jones, Liam
Phillips, Andrew
Shaw, Matt (R)
Mullett, Aaron
O'Shea, Cameron
Lamb, Jed
Kerridge, Sam
Docherty, Sam
Graham, Nicholas
Plowman, Lachlan
Byrne, Ciaran
Cripps, Patrick
Lang, Darcy

Cripps and ????   Plowman.   Doc of course.   No need to back the truck over the wasted draft picks, but our core is made up of recycled players and very little talent.     This in the group that should be stepping up, not Dow, SPS, Fisher, Polson and Cunningham who should be showing signs of improvement.

The Suns.

Hall, Aaron
Thompson, Rory
May, Steven
Nicholls, Tom
Lyons, Jarryd
Day, Sam
Witts, Jarrod
Lynch, Tom
Swallow, David
Young, Aaron
Sexton, Alex
Lemmens, Sean
Lonergan, Jesse
Martin, Jack
Leslie, Jack
Holman, Nicholas (R)
Willis, Mackenzie (R)
Kolodjashnij, Kade
Miller, Touk
Weller, Lachlan

What is the point you're trying to make?

Lang, as but one example, was one of Geelong's better players in the 2017 finals.

Is Witts, for example, any better than a fit Philips?

Plenty of no names in their list too....

The Crows aren't dumb. They would not offer 2 1st rounders plus some change backwards and forwards, without good reason.

I've come to realise a lot of posters don't get the Crows trading for Gibbs as an indicator of his worth, apparently the Crows are idiots and have paid overs for a spud! It seems that it's all a bit too subtle for the posters to understand!

It also seems our playing list are all morons, they keep voting Murphy in as captain, and the club must be idiots because they keep ticking off on the vote! The club of course includes SOS and The Judge!

Of course I could write off the posts to some sort of misplaced bitterness, fans reacting to the departing player, or perhaps it's even a weird version of sports racism!

Don't agree.   This is not the 80's when you need to play 100 VFL games before your AFL debut.

Dow is going to learn a lot more from Cripps and Kruezer (when fit) in a AFL then he will in the VFL.   Kerridge will offer more in the short term, but playing him and Graham stops getting games into talented kids which will benefit the team in the long run.

Look.   In short our list is pox.   It's really bad and unbalanced.   How we started favourite against the Suns amazed me.

Have a look at our 22-26 year olds.   The guys on your list that should have reached 60-100 games plus and are consistent in thier output.

Casboult, Levi
Jones, Liam
Phillips, Andrew
Shaw, Matt (R)
Mullett, Aaron
O'Shea, Cameron
Lamb, Jed
Kerridge, Sam
Docherty, Sam
Graham, Nicholas
Plowman, Lachlan
Byrne, Ciaran
Cripps, Patrick
Lang, Darcy

Cripps and ????   Plowman.   Doc of course.   No need to back the truck over the wasted draft picks, but our core is made up of recycled players and very little talent.     This in the group that should be stepping up, not Dow, SPS, Fisher, Polson and Cunningham who should be showing signs of improvement.

The Suns.

Hall, Aaron
Thompson, Rory
May, Steven
Nicholls, Tom
Lyons, Jarryd
Day, Sam
Witts, Jarrod
Lynch, Tom
Swallow, David
Young, Aaron
Sexton, Alex
Lemmens, Sean
Lonergan, Jesse
Martin, Jack
Leslie, Jack
Holman, Nicholas (R)
Willis, Mackenzie (R)
Kolodjashnij, Kade
Miller, Touk
Weller, Lachlan

Thanks for making this point.  Twenty of the team that beat us yesterday are battle hardened players where we are relying on twenty to fourth gamers backed up by a bunch of retreads who were given the flick essentially.

Some of them might come good, others won't.

@LP did you watch Gowers today he was pretty ordinary and missed a couple of set shots in Levi fashion.

What is the point you're trying to make?

Lang, as but one example, was one of Geelong's better players in the 2017 finals.

Is Witts, for example, any better than a fit Philips?

Plenty of no names in their list too....

Really?

Witts is panels better than Phillips.   Need to take off those rose coloured glasses.

Hall, Aaron - Can play.   Bit of a flake
Thompson, Rory - Highly rated CHB.   Battled injury.
May, Steven - Hawks threw the kitchen sink at him.   Very good player
Nicholls, Tom
Lyons, Jarryd - Steady player, learning to play to his limitations.
Day, Sam -
Witts, Jarrod - Had a very solid 2017.  
Lynch, Tom - Mr Millions
Swallow, David - Talented.   Injuries ~ Pick 1
Young, Aaron - Solid
Sexton, Alex
Lemmens, Sean
Lonergan, Jesse - Early Pick (13)
Martin, Jack - Considered by many the best of the mini drafts.  
Leslie, Jack
Holman, Nicholas (R)
Willis, Mackenzie (R)
Kolodjashnij, Kade - 1st Round Pick (5)
Miller, Touk -
Weller, Lachlan - 1st Round Pick

@LP did you watch Gowers today he was pretty ordinary and missed a couple of set shots in Levi fashion.

Yes, I watched the 21 year old in his second ever game play as the undersized lead up forward role against a back line with about 700 games and at least two full seasons of experience.

I also heard the commentators discuss how much Gowers had improved since arriving at the Dogs.

Levi was drafted 9 years ago, he was a year older than Gowers when he debuted!

If Gowers makes it into his 9th or 10th season we can make an accurate relative judgement, but at the moment game for game he's a year ahead of Casboult on age and has 5 scoring attempts compared to Casboult's 2 after just 2 games!

Billy "The Kid" Gowers is about 6" shorter and 15kg lighter than Casboult but is playing the same basic team role!

Why would you even mention Casboult, are you trying to rub in how bad he really is?

Really?

Witts is panels better than Phillips.   Need to take off those rose coloured glasses.

Hall, Aaron - Can play.   Bit of a flake
Thompson, Rory - Highly rated CHB.   Battled injury.
May, Steven - Hawks threw the kitchen sink at him.   Very good player
Nicholls, Tom
Lyons, Jarryd - Steady player, learning to play to his limitations.
Day, Sam -
Witts, Jarrod - Had a very solid 2017.  
Lynch, Tom - Mr Millions
Swallow, David - Talented.   Injuries ~ Pick 1
Young, Aaron - Solid
Sexton, Alex
Lemmens, Sean
Lonergan, Jesse - Early Pick (13)
Martin, Jack - Considered by many the best of the mini drafts.  
Leslie, Jack
Holman, Nicholas (R)
Willis, Mackenzie (R)
Kolodjashnij, Kade - 1st Round Pick (5)
Miller, Touk -
Weller, Lachlan - 1st Round Pick

Lyons had 36 possies and from what I saw used them well...played on Cripps in the corresponding game last season and kept him to 17 possies...Lyons had 24.......
Witts 36 hitouts in the same game and beat Kreuzer 23 hitouts who everyone thinks would have saved us if he played.....
We learned nothing and underestimated GC no name players like we did last time.....
May scares our blokes too, only player I saw mix it with May was Simpson who bounced of him like he was a mattress.....

May scares our blokes too, only player I saw mix it with May was Simpson who bounced of him like he was a mattress.....

Apparently if Casboult had played on May, and we'd brought the out of form McKay into ruck, we would have won! :o

Apparently if Casboult had played on May, and we'd brought the out of form McKay into ruck, we would have won! :o

Bringing the out of form undersized Poulsen in sure worked a treat.... ;)

Bringing the out of form undersized Poulsen in sure worked a treat.... ;)

Both ideas are absurd, one of them our MC actually tried yesterday, the other one they've been trying for almost a decade!

When will they learn!

We must have injuries EB1, physical or mental, I cannot believe we seriously made that call for any other reason!

Both ideas are absurd, one of them our MC actually tried yesterday, the other one they've been trying for almost a decade!

When will they learn!

We must have injuries EB1, physical or mental, I cannot believe we seriously made that call for any other reason!

LP..Think they may have thought we might be able to run GC off their feet with our new game plan, Poulsen has worked as tagger
in the NB's and maybe they thought he could lock down on one of the GC quicker mids or small forwards...looks like we were prepared to concede in the ruck and maybe hope Casboult might take a few marks around the ground and get involved in general play a bit more than Witts. Witts surprised with his endurance and had only Day as support so he rucked most of the day....

I think another problem with the evolution of our game plan from defence to attack is that it leaves the backs exposed more.

Example being we always had a loose man like Doc, Weits or Marchbank intercepting opposition forward thrusts unchecked, thus inflating their marks and disposal count.

Fast forward to 2018 and we are no longer playing the loose man and have lost our General in Doc. Not playing a zone and going man on man when we start to get beaten, and continuing to select players that are simply not up to it. Not going to single out any ne player as there is 22 of them out there.

I honestly believe demoting Weitering would be detrimental to his development and think he should be played as a loose man chopping off and helping whoever needs it most. Reads the play well and is a neat kick when he's got time and space. Lynch should have been double teamed from the get go but hey what would we know right?

Rowe needs to come back and play on the Gorillas and Marchbank could play on a wing. Jones on the second best defender and I would give Macreadie another crack, not as a close checking defender either as I rate his sidestep and willingness to take the game on and he has neat skills. Can play tall or small.

Looking forward to Williamsons return and the inclusions of Lang, Kennedy and I would give Kerr a crack as a FF. The more competition for spots the better as for too long games have been gifted to potato sacks disguised as Carlton footballers.

Thanks for making this point.  Twenty of the team that beat us yesterday are battle hardened players where we are relying on twenty to fourth gamers backed up by a bunch of retreads who were given the flick essentially.

Some of them might come good, others won't.

@LP did you watch Gowers today he was pretty ordinary and missed a couple of set shots in Levi fashion.

Twenty of the team that beat us yesterday are battle hardened players where we are relying on twenty to fourth gamers backed up by a bunch of retreads who were given the flick essentially.

Yet Holman, Lyons, Witts are all retreads, so called....surely that alone destroys the argument entirely.

Bolded below - are or will be, post injury, regular 22 players.

Casboult, Levi
Jones, Liam - would get a game in most AFL teams
Phillips, Andrew
Shaw, Matt (R)
Mullett, Aaron
O'Shea, Cameron
Lamb, Jed
Kerridge, Sam
Docherty, Sam
Graham, Nicholas
Plowman, Lachlan
Byrne, Ciaran
Cripps, Patrick
Lang, Darcy

Of the others, Kerridge is good enough but Bolts would prefr Dow to wander around lost out there getting 7 (bad) possessions.

Lamb, O'Shea, Mullet - can play a role well enough. Mullet was better than Murphy on the weekend.

Byrne - who knows, he always gets injured but in O'Shea we have a ready made and arguably better player.

a)  No.   It was a poor performance.  Our forwardline was terrible.   No space.   No one creating space.   No one leading towards the ball carrier.   Best at this were Curnow, Thomas and Lamb.  Weitering was lost and just got in the way.   Not a forward, however with Marchbank and Jones we don't really need 3 talls.    Struggled for a match up, however for his development I would prefer to play him in the seniors.  

b)  None have really bothered me.    I would have liked to see McKay play much for the same reasons as Weittering.    I don't think he is ready, but the more games he and Curnow play in the same forwardline the better.   Silvagni I love but I not sure what role he plays in the modern game.   Not tall enough/Not quick enough.   Hard to find a similar type in any of the successful sides.

c)  List wise yes.   I like the influx of youth, but it was alway going to bring pain.   We (Carlton Supporters) piss and moan about Gibbs and Murphy, but they are class players and you can't expect the kids to step up and replace a Gibbs.    He will dominate at the Crows with Crouch (x2) and Sloane.    He will make dills like Spanner look silly.   Yeah we are better off without Gibbs and Murphy ;(

re a), been saying the same for weeks, nobody agreed with me (well maybe 1) and now every man and his dog is saying the same.

but....b) you say the selections don't bother you.
So there is no spot for Weitering, which you admit. He is not required, but you have no issue with him being picked every week? For his 'development' it is best? What is more important, his development or the teams?  Playing him is not helping us win. Picking a better suited team will give us a better chance at winning.
Sure, its not win at all costs, but we don't need to try and lose the matches do we?

c) i've got no problem with playing the kids. I've got no problem with much maligned players Gibbs and Murphy playing. I've got no problem with trading out Gibbs and Murphy types for an increased level of talent coming in. I have a problem with a very lobsided list balance. I have a problem with a coach who cannot pick a side on any given day that resembles something that can stop the opposition.
Sure, pick kids. Sure pick talent.
But if your 22 best and talented kids are all key backs, you cannot pick that side, obviously. I'm not sure Bolton and co are following that kind of guidelines.

LP..Think they may have thought we might be able to run GC off their feet with our new game plan, Poulsen has worked as tagger
in the NB's and maybe they thought he could lock down on one of the GC quicker mids or small forwards...looks like we were prepared to concede in the ruck and maybe hope Casboult might take a few marks around the ground and get involved in general play a bit more than Witts. Witts surprised with his endurance and had only Day as support so he rucked most of the day....

re Kreuzer for Polsen....
I have no doubt they tried to run GC around by playing a smaller side. Basically conceding the ruck.
Not a terrible strategy if you plan to do that from day 1.

However, when you have already brought in an abundance of tall timber to play down back (despite having no matchups) that doesn't agree with the match day strategy. Specifically playing Weitering, allowed them to run around and off us. Playing Casboult in the ruck for the majority of the game helped them too.
If we really wanted to run them around we should've played Curnowfides in the ruck. Due to the ruck rules, he doesn't have to jump into Witts, nor worry about others jumping into him. So all he has to do is be there at centre bounces, and run off him the rest of the game. Leaving Casboult to be the anchor at home.

The club tried to half ar$* 2 opposing strategies at once which meant we were really doing neither.

We need to forget the draft pick.

If yuo're not in form and there's a worthy replacement - down you go, up they come.

This should apply to Weiters, Paddy Dow, Polson, Byrne....

Weiters - must go to the 2s. And the psych.

Dow - is he really learning anything being a witches hat in the 1s. gets a handful of useless possessions. Let him get leather poisoning n the 2s first. Too much pressure on the kid. And it shows. Play Kerridge until Dow earns a spot.

Polson - simply should not have been picked. And get rid of the mo kid, that's dumb!

Byrne - Willo the obvious replacement....but a few weeks and game time off.

Lamb - low numbers, needs to convert everythig that comes his way. Lucky Pickett ko'd and Garlett finding his feet. Lang in for Lamb?

Those first three mean we have been playing with 19 players essentially. N ot going to win a local chook raffle doing that...

I have said this time and time again - Matty Kruezer is our most important player by the mile, we have no structure and our groups confidence falls to bits when his out. We were shot from the first bounce against a team that considering our development, we should win at least 8 out of every 10 times we play them. Cripps aside we are small light and weak where the ball is won without MK in there and to replace a player like that with a small light kid is amateur hour and showed our selectors to be fools this week

While i know we should never have such a reliance on one player until we get at least 2 more decent sized midfielders it wont change.

We wont beat any AFL team without him playing this year.
 

I've got a hunch that we wouldn't be discussing so many selection/personnel shoulds and shouldn'ts had we simply been more efficient and made no where near as many mistakes... and I suspect that, as Murphy suggested, we got ahead of ourselves and perhaps even entered the game somewhat 'cocky', and paid the price. That kind of crap shows a lack of discipline and on-field leadership. Every side is allowed 'one of those games' each year... Time for the coaches to lay down the law a litter 'stronger.'

However, I do believe that Weitering, Cuningham and Polson need to make way for others (Kreuz for Weitering, SOJ for Cuningham and Lang/Graham/Kennedy or Kerridge for Polson.) We don't want a hatrick of losses with Rottingwood delivering the third.

I have said this time and time again - Matty Kruezer is our most important player by the mile, we have no structure and our groups confidence falls to bits when his out. We were shot from the first bounce against a team that considering our development, we should win at least 8 out of every 10 times we play them. Cripps aside we are small light and weak where the ball is won without MK in there and to replace a player like that with a small light kid is amateur hour and showed our selectors to be fools this week

While i know we should never have such a reliance on one player until we get at least 2 more decent sized midfielders it wont change.

We wont beat any AFL team without him playing this year.

one of my biggest concerns with our list and the line up against the suns. We go in with a number of smaller players most of whom are still young and not strong enough. A number of our (more) senior players are still small guys - Murphy, Curnow, Simpson, Wright and Lamb compared to the senior groups the top teams are putting out on the ground each week. Then add in younger guys like Fisher, Polson, SPS and Dow (and maybe Garlett) who are still building their bodies and we are quite a small team. After watching Sydney vs Port yesterday and bits of other games this weekend we do look far smaller than a lot of the competition. Even our KPP like Weitering, Marchbank, Mckay and to a degree SOJ are still filling out. (I'd say Curnow too based on age but he already looks a ready).

This of course is still no excuse for all the fumbles and poor disposal on Saturday.

They went in with a bad attitude Saturday, just like our last two games against Brisbane at the Gabba. Great efforts against good teams had them thinking Brisbane and Gold Coast would be way easier and played accordingly. After those two Brisbane disasters we picked up alot with good wins not long after. We need to realise that crap sides are at our level and we have to play well to win.

one of my biggest concerns with our list and the line up against the suns. We go in with a number of smaller players most of whom are still young and not strong enough. A number of our (more) senior players are still small guys - Murphy, Curnow, Simpson, Wright and Lamb compared to the senior groups the top teams are putting out on the ground each week. Then add in younger guys like Fisher, Polson, SPS and Dow (and maybe Garlett) who are still building their bodies and we are quite a small team. After watching Sydney vs Port yesterday and bits of other games this weekend we do look far smaller than a lot of the competition. Even our KPP like Weitering, Marchbank, Mckay and to a degree SOJ are still filling out. (I'd say Curnow too based on age but he already looks a ready).

This of course is still no excuse for all the fumbles and poor disposal on Saturday.

We have always looked a smaller side and bigger side bash us up.
I can't remember us having bigger bodies than anyone. We just seem to always look smaller.
Not enough time on the juice.  :o

Leaving Casboult to be the anchor at home.

Freudian slip?

The longer we cling to this attempted solution, the longer any real progress is delayed.

We have always looked a smaller side and bigger side bash us up.
I can't remember us having bigger bodies than anyone. We just seem to always look smaller.
Not enough time on the juice.  :o

Agree.. been smaller than most for 10 years plus, this idea that small kids fill out is wrong, big kids usually fill out more and get bigger, we need to recruit some bigger bodied kids that can throw their weight around.

re a), been saying the same for weeks, nobody agreed with me (well maybe 1) and now every man and his dog is saying the same.

but....b) you say the selections don't bother you.
So there is no spot for Weitering, which you admit. He is not required, but you have no issue with him being picked every week? For his 'development' it is best? What is more important, his development or the teams?  Playing him is not helping us win. Picking a better suited team will give us a better chance at winning.
Sure, its not win at all costs, but we don't need to try and lose the matches do we?

It's a catch 20/20.   Maybe 2 or 3 sides have a match up for all of Marchbank/Jones/Weitering.   Ideally we would get by with 2 and Plowman who can play oversized at a pinch.   So what's the catch?

For the future it's

Marchbank, Weitering then Jones.

On form it's

Jones, Marchbank then Weitering.

Marchbank and Weitering are blue chip talents who have only played 22 games and 44 games.    They need to play AFL level to together.    Not VFL.   So what do you do?

Drop Jones?   Harsh.
Drop Weitering?   Yeah maybe now.   But I never hated the decision to play him, even though it clearly didn't work.    Doens't mean the idea wasn't great.

Thirdly if you are going with 2, then maybe (just maybe) you might look at trading one at seasons end.    Playing VFL is not great for their trade value.

I don't think it's as simple as dropping him and waiting until he has a match up.  

I have said this time and time again - Matty Kruezer is our most important player by the mile, we have no structure and our groups confidence falls to bits when his out. We were shot from the first bounce against a team that considering our development, we should win at least 8 out of every 10 times we play them. Cripps aside we are small light and weak where the ball is won without MK in there and to replace a player like that with a small light kid is amateur hour and showed our selectors to be fools this week

While i know we should never have such a reliance on one player until we get at least 2 more decent sized midfielders it wont change.

We wont beat any AFL team without him playing this year.

Kruezer played in the same game at Etihad last season and lowered his colours to Witts as did Cripps to Lyons, they rocked up with the same game plan and Lynch torched us again......you have to start looking at the coaches box too when you analyse deja vu defeats...

Kruezer played in the same game at Etihad last season and lowered his colours to Witts as did Cripps to Lyons, they rocked up with the same game plan and Lynch torched us again......you have to start looking at the coaches box too when you analyse deja vu defeats...

Good points EB, but nevertheless we are way too light and weak as a midfield group even when at full strength. When MK is missing this area is miles below AFL standard and don't reckon the best coach in the comp would win many games with this group.

Considering we have been rebuilding trade wise for 3 years I would have hoped this part was addressed by now. Our recruiters select too many small body midfielders IMO and considering the lack of protection surprised how good Fisher and SPS are tracking. Imagine those 2 playing and protected in a midfield like the Swans  :-[.

Our recruiters select too many small body midfielders IMO and considering the lack of protection surprised how good Fisher and SPS are tracking. Imagine those 2 playing and protected in a midfield like the Swans  :-[.

It does seem we still draft and trade for messiah types, and cut their throat when they turn out to be good ordinary footballers!

Any of our kids, surrounded by a decent spine that protects and supports them would competition superstars.

It's a catch 20/20.   Maybe 2 or 3 sides have a match up for all of Marchbank/Jones/Weitering.   Ideally we would get by with 2 and Plowman who can play oversized at a pinch.   So what's the catch?

For the future it's

Marchbank, Weitering then Jones.

On form it's

Jones, Marchbank then Weitering.

Marchbank and Weitering are blue chip talents who have only played 22 games and 44 games.    They need to play AFL level to together.    Not VFL.   So what do you do?

Drop Jones?   Harsh.
Drop Weitering?   Yeah maybe now.   But I never hated the decision to play him, even though it clearly didn't work.    Doens't mean the idea wasn't great.

Thirdly if you are going with 2, then maybe (just maybe) you might look at trading one at seasons end.    Playing VFL is not great for their trade value.

I don't think it's as simple as dropping him and waiting until he has a match up.

I agree with most of that, and i know there is no easy solution to the problem.

I haven't given up on Weitering yet, far from it, but i don't think playing him at present is doing him and us any good...especially when there is no matchup for him.
Short term? So yes, send him to VFL, let him dominate, let him enjoy playing footy again. Let him spend some time up forward if kick a goal or 2.
Medium term? See how he goes in the VFL, if he regains some form, maybe try him again at senior level. If we have injuries, we have cover.
Long term? Hard to say. Jones is only 27 and has plenty of footy ahead of him. Blokes his size are generally just hitting their peak now. Do we cash in? Maybe.
I'd certainly keep Marchbank as he has barely put a foot wrong in his time at the club.
Weitering is probably your best long term option....but he might also hold the most value at the trade table. Look at offers and let them dictate what you wanna do.

If we could snare a young-ish, but AFL ready key forward in a trade for Weitering....even if we throw in a kicker, should we do it? If it was Lynch??

You gotta explore these options.

However, short term, i see no benefit to playing Weitering right now, not for him, not for our future and not helping us win.

Kruezer played in the same game at Etihad last season and lowered his colours to Witts as did Cripps to Lyons, they rocked up with the same game plan and Lynch torched us again......you have to start looking at the coaches box too when you analyse deja vu defeats...

Yes, Kreuzer had his ar$e handed to him by Witts last year, Cripps struggled with 17 touches but Levi stayed home and kicked 3. Lynch kicked 7. Wonder why nothing changed. Maybe they got thrown by the return game where Cripps was alot better, Lynch was goaless on Jones, Levi had a good one around the ground despite missing every shot at goal, and Kreuzer played well on Witts but still, you have to be aware of history and what those players can do to you and last year at Etihad is still fresh.

Bowes booked for his charge on Weitering. (ie the one where the umpires didn't report him or even give a 50m penalty)

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-04-02/young-sun-cops-a-week-plus-fines-galore

Yes, Kreuzer had his ar$e handed to him by Witts last year, Cripps struggled with 17 touches but Levi stayed home and kicked 3. Lynch kicked 7. Wonder why nothing changed. Maybe they got thrown by the return game where Cripps was alot better, Lynch was goaless on Jones, Levi had a good one around the ground despite missing every shot at goal, and Kreuzer played well on Witts but still, you have to be aware of history and what those players can do to you and last year at Etihad is still fresh.

Kreuzer was injured in the 1st Qtr against GC last season, played out the game and then missed the following week. So we knew what was going to happen playing a less than capable ruck option against Witts, so we repeated history!

May carried an injury allowing Casboult freedom to influence the game, after Lynch had stitched up Rowe with 6 goals we put Weitering on him which ended Lynch's dominance all too late!

So two days ago we played Weitering forward and let Casboult learn what a real ruck option does! Is it only our players who have to learn from history, what about the MC?

Kreuzer was injured in the 1st Qtr against GC last season, played out the game and then missed the following week. So we knew what was going to happen playing a less than capable ruck option against Witts, so we repeated history!

May carried an injury allowing Casboult freedom to influence the game, after Lynch had stitched up Rowe with 6 goals we put Weitering on him which ended Lynch's dominance all too late!

So two days ago we played Weitering forward and let Casboult learn what a real ruck option does! Is it only our players who have to learn from history, what about the MC?

We can rationalise all we want, we still didn't learn. Witts is 209cm, not easy at stoggages and centre bounces. Levi did a good job against Nankervis, 19 hitouts, a number to advantage, the week before when called upon. May had an injury, looking for an excuse as to why Levi kicked 3 against him last year? If he has to play against Grundy, and I sincerely hope Kreuzer is fit as Levi isn't a true 1st ruck, he'll find 202cm easier to handle than 209. Hopefully he has help too this time. McKay had a good one in the VFL. Bring him in if we have too. Not only did we have Levi battle a bloke 11cm taller, he had no help plus it left us without a tall target forward. Team selection was abominable.

@laj

Grundy is a handful for even the best opposing ruckman so I'm praying we aren't relying on Levi.

Bowes offered one week .

Yes, I watched the 21 year old in his second ever game play as the undersized lead up forward role against a back line with about 700 games and at least two full seasons of experience.

I also heard the commentators discuss how much Gowers had improved since arriving at the Dogs.

Levi was drafted 9 years ago, he was a year older than Gowers when he debuted!

If Gowers makes it into his 9th or 10th season we can make an accurate relative judgement, but at the moment game for game he's a year ahead of Casboult on age and has 5 scoring attempts compared to Casboult's 2 after just 2 games!

Billy "The Kid" Gowers is about 6" shorter and 15kg lighter than Casboult but is playing the same basic team role!

Why would you even mention Casboult, are you trying to rub in how bad he really is?

13 possessions, 1.4 on the scoreboard with one of them being from twenty metres out directly in front, and forget Levi he isn't competing with him for a spot it's jack Silvagni. 

Gowers might make the grade but he's another one making up numbers.

Your point about us flicking players is what this was for.  He and his side were rubbish.

@fly,  our biggest issue is a lack of game time and experience together.   Gold Coast don't have that issue where it counts.

13 possessions, 1.4 on the scoreboard with one of them being from twenty metres out directly in front, and forget Levi he isn't competing with him for a spot it's jack Silvagni. 

Gowers might make the grade but he's another one making up numbers.

Your point about us flicking players is what this was for.  He and his side were rubbish.

@fly,  our biggest issue is a lack of game time and experience together.   Gold Coast don't have that issue where it counts.

You said it!

Rubbish compared to who, us?

I didn't bring it up first.

I was just implying that at a similar period in the not-so-distant past, when our team was performing similarly, our coach was a dead man walking.

Lods has been the one to suggest that Bolton won't last if this continues because...Carlton.

These opinions aren't mutually exclusive.

I don't think Bolton will be gone in the short term....but what I am suggesting is that the time has now come when he will be judged by "his" performance.

As Kruds points out....The reality is that any of our coaches since the turn of the century would be very much under the pump after two seasons and two games if this was the state of play.
Because we publicly made such a big deal about a rebuild, and a new approach it has had the effect of delaying that scrutiny on Bolton ...I've always thought that was a clever tactic.

But if results continue to be poor as the season progresses the microscope will become more focused on aspects of team selection, match-ups and match day tactics....and as head coach the buck stops with Bolton.

I suspect there will also be greater scrutiny on Silvagni's selections as well.

So the pressure on the coach and list manager...
It's not necessarily want I want to happen...It's what I believe will happen.
I like Bolton. It's a fresh approach. ...but I also like a successful team and you only get a limited time to create that.

I hope Bolton has a greater plan we're not actually fully understanding in  terms of the team selections and tactics we're seeing at the moment...but the rate of improvement seems slow and if other teams are improving at a greater rate they'll be going past us.
You can argue that the slow and steady rate of improvement is the better path for long term success but in terms of things like sponsorship, membership and importantly being seen as a destination club that will attract new talent I'm afraid I'm a bit skeptical.

However it's not all doom and gloom...the season is two weeks old!
The genie is out of the bottle but a couple of wins will shut up the doubters and stick him right back in there. ;)

I suspect there will also be greater scrutiny on Silvagni's selections as well.

Will it be the selections, or the retentions?

We go through the motions, the same old same olds, week in and week out. Any suggestion of change gets shouted down, if our supporters fear change what is the club to do! More of the same, we've been doing it for a decade!

Will it be the selections, or the retentions?

We go through the motions, the same old same olds, week in and week out. Any suggestion of change gets shouted down, if our supporters fear change what is the club to do! More of the same, we've been doing it for a decade!

I'd love to see some change...I'm not really seeing it this weekend :(

The problem is you can't shut these discussions and opinions down.
Because an approach is different it doesn't mean it's better....and that should form a point of discussion.
We can't blindly accept that the path the club has chosen is the right one...that the draft selections made are the right ones.
A year ago we had most folk on board with the direction...now we have a few questions.
Another year of mediocrity and there will be more questions.

I'd love to see some change...I'm not really seeing it this weekend :(

The problem is you can't shut these discussions and opinions down.
Because an approach is different it doesn't mean it's better....and that should form a point of discussion.
We can't blindly accept that the path the club has chosen is the right one...that the draft selections made are the right ones.
A year ago we had most folk on board with the direction...now we have a few questions.
Another year of mediocrity and there will be more questions.

While we continue to play blokes like Casboult we won't get answers, he is clearly not the answer, not even his supporters think that!

I went to the game, what absolute rubbish we dished up.
I saw some individual moments of good play from some players, but overall.....
Bolts says we are a side that wants to be known for its effort and pressure, well both were sadly lacking on Saturday.
We had better come out breathing fire against the Pies or I will begin to start asking some serious questions of Bolts, and the players too, if the truth be known.

These opinions aren't mutually exclusive.

I don't think Bolton will be gone in the short term....but what I am suggesting is that the time has now come when he will be judged by "his" performance.

As Kruds points out....The reality is that any of our coaches since the turn of the century would be very much under the pump after two seasons and two games if this was the state of play.
Because we publicly made such a big deal about a rebuild, and a new approach it has had the effect of delaying that scrutiny on Bolton ...I've always thought that was a clever tactic.

But if results continue to be poor as the season progresses the microscope will become more focused on aspects of team selection, match-ups and match day tactics....and as head coach the buck stops with Bolton.

I suspect there will also be greater scrutiny on Silvagni's selections as well.

So the pressure on the coach and list manager...
It's not necessarily want I want to happen...It's what I believe will happen.
I like Bolton. It's a fresh approach. ...but I also like a successful team and you only get a limited time to create that.

I hope Bolton has a greater plan we're not actually fully understanding in  terms of the team selections and tactics we're seeing at the moment...but the rate of improvement seems slow and if other teams are improving at a greater rate they'll be going past us.
You can argue that the slow and steady rate of improvement is the better path for long term success but in terms of things like sponsorship, membership and importantly being seen as a destination club that will attract new talent I'm afraid I'm a bit skeptical.

However it's not all doom and gloom...the season is two weeks old!
The genie is out of the bottle but a couple of wins will shut up the doubters and stick him right back in there. ;)

I've highlighted my overall throughts on the topic.

The club has done the right thing in trying to buy bolton time.
I think he is doing the right thing thus far, but the pressure is building.
There better be some logic we're not seeing in regards to team selections and what not, otherwise he is digging his own grave.

While we continue to play blokes like Casboult we won't get answers, he is clearly not the answer, not even his supporters think that!

2 wrongs don't make a right.

Wrong #1. Not finding a replacement for Casboult thus far. - SOS's call.

Potential wrong #2. Not playing him in the side currently.

I would be happy if at the end of this year, Casboult never pulls on a navy blue jumper again.
BUT, we simply do not have the list beneath him to be afforded the luxury of not playing him.

I think we can play him and McKay in the same side....with curnowfides as well. Kreuzer and Jack too.

No opposition club defense is going to focus on Casboult any more, Charlie is the go to man.

No opposition will take Casboult seriously because they know Casboult hurts us as much if not more than he hurts them! If I was an opposition coach I'd be looking at defensive structures that ensure Casboult is Carlton's go to option.

Casboult on his best free wheeling day kicks 3 or 4 goals and Carlton probably lose, Charlie looks like he could kick 10 tomorrow.

As 2nd banana to Charlie I'm afraid Casboult draws no heat, and have no doubt Casboult is already 2nd banana. We need a 2nd KPF that will attract some defensive focus to allow Charlie to flourish.

Maybe Rowe and Charlie is a viable F50 setup, would Rowe, Charlie, Silvagni, Marchbank be a potential option?

Ultimately it should be McKay, Kerr, Charlie, Silvagni but we cannot carry all those kids at the moment, we need an experienced older head in there, but one that can lead the kids not feed off them.

No opposition club defense is going to focus on Casboult any more, Charlie is the go to man.

No opposition will take Casboult seriously because they know Casboult hurts us as much if not more than he hurts them! If I was an opposition coach I'd be looking at defensive structures that ensure Casboult is Carlton's go to option.

Casboult on his best free wheeling day kicks 3 or 4 goals and Carlton probably lose, Charlie looks like he could kick 10 tomorrow.

As 2nd banana to Charlie I'm afraid Casboult draws no heat, and have no doubt Casboult is already 2nd banana. We need a 2nd KPF that will attract some defensive focus to allow Charlie to flourish.

Maybe Rowe and Charlie is a viable F50 setup, would Rowe, Charlie, Silvagni, Marchbank be a potential option?

Ultimately it should be McKay, Kerr, Charlie, Silvagni but we cannot carry all those kids at the moment, we need an experienced older head in there, but one that can lead the kids not feed off them.

Casboult 1st banana or 2nd banana....he's better than whoever is 3rd banana.

It sucks but its true.

Rowe, long term, is not really a better option up forward than Casboult. Age not on his size.
Marchbank forward is taking away our best performed defender to date. Is it worth it? No.

McKay should get a game, and i'm not opposed to sending Casboult back to the 2's to do so, but i know our scoring power would be down because McKay is still finding his feet.

We need to play Casboult, McKay AND Curnowfides together. The latter should draw the heat, and can roam through the wing if need be. The other 2 can fight over 2nd and 3rd defender, and we can exploit that.

Its not a good place to be, but we need Casboult in the side. The sooner you accept that, the better off you'll be. Come post R23 though, all bets are off.

We are three years away so there’s no reason not to play McKay.
Plenty of others like Hawkins and Daniher were given a couple of years to grow into the role

Casboult 1st banana or 2nd banana....he's better than whoever is 3rd banana.

It sucks but its true.

Rowe, long term, is not really a better option up forward than Casboult. Age not on his size.
Marchbank forward is taking away our best performed defender to date. Is it worth it? No.

McKay should get a game, and i'm not opposed to sending Casboult back to the 2's to do so, but i know our scoring power would be down because McKay is still finding his feet.

We need to play Casboult, McKay AND Curnowfides together. The latter should draw the heat, and can roam through the wing if need be. The other 2 can fight over 2nd and 3rd defender, and we can exploit that.

Its not a good place to be, but we need Casboult in the side. The sooner you accept that, the better off you'll be. Come post R23 though, all bets are off.

Casboult won't exploit anything, that is the problem with that logic.

Marchbank was a turnover merchant last game, at least 3 goals were directly scored due to his poor disposal, two of them coast to coast. Like Simmo getting a sh1te load of footy isn't good enough if the opposition exploit your poor disposal and you don't get back to help. On one of those occasions, Marchbank charged down the ground, kicked the ball directly to a nest of GC players, and jogged over the interchange gate to let others fix up his feck up! I appreciate that might no be all his fault, but shizen it looked bad!

Casboult won't exploit anything, that is the problem with that logic.

If you have Curnowfides, Casboult and McKay in the same forwardline....name me a side with 3 backmen tall enough to take them. You can't because we are hoarding them all.

The moment you put a smaller bloke on any of them, thats the moment that player gets an advantage. Is it enough to win us a game? Depends what our mids can do and how good our delivery is. But put simply, Casboult will be a better player if he has McKay in the side with him.

If you have Curnowfides, Casboult and McKay in the same forwardline....name me a side with 3 backmen tall enough to take them. You can't because we are hoarding them all.

The moment you put a smaller bloke on any of them, thats the moment that player gets an advantage. Is it enough to win us a game? Depends what our mids can do and how good our delivery is. But put simply, Casboult will be a better player if he has McKay in the side with him.

You don't need a tall to take Casboult, that is another flaw in the logic, he's easily manhandled and out-bodied by medium defenders. Harass him, take away his run, and he's finished.

Secondly, even on his good day he's probably got to get twice as much footy as the others, to have just half the amount of impact.

If you want to sacrifice McKay to be a patsy for Casboult, you may as well replace Casboult with Kerr or Silvagni.

Let's face it, Charlie is the man now, for us and for the opposition.

If you have Curnowfides, Casboult and McKay in the same forwardline....name me a side with 3 backmen tall enough to take them. You can't because we are hoarding them all.

The moment you put a smaller bloke on any of them, thats the moment that player gets an advantage. Is it enough to win us a game? Depends what our mids can do and how good our delivery is. But put simply, Casboult will be a better player if he has McKay in the side with him.

Agree on Casboult and Mckay playing together and Casboult being better for it......Richmond have three tall defenders in Rance, Astbury and Grimes...McIntosh aint small either. ;)

You don't need a tall to take Casboult, that is another flaw in the logic, he's easily manhandled and out-bodied by medium defenders. Harass him, take away his run, and he's finished.

Secondly, even on his good day he's probably got to get twice as much footy as the others, to have just half the amount of impact.

If you want to sacrifice McKay to be a patsy for Casboult, you may as well replace Casboult with Kerr or Silvagni.

Let's face it, Charlie is the man now, for us and for the opposition.

Your hatrid is blinding you from logic. Again, let me point out that i have been on the replace casboult bandwagon for years.

re bold, don't think about it that way.
Think about it as Casboult being the patsy for McKay.

Think about it as Casboult being the patsy for McKay.

So Charlie is top banana, no need to make any assumptions there.

You think opposition teams will seriously focus on Casboult as the 2nd forward and leave a McKay, Kerr, Silvagni or others as the 3rd or lesser options?

I say there is a long history of our performance that says that's bogus logic.

I think if Charlie, Casboult, Wright, Silvagni and McKay are in the mix Casboult will be last on the oppositions hit list because he hurts them so little, he has little physical presence, can be covered by a smaller player, isn't a significant scoring threat and even if he gets hold of the ball he is likely to shoot us in the foot at any moment.

Is that what we want, is that fair of those 20 year olds?

No one will leave Casboult free to mind McKay (initially).

He's not that good but he's good enough to be the difference between winning and losing.

It's also worth noting that he kicks straighter when he doesn't have to take a big contested mark.

We could even instruct him to pass it off every time he takes a mark and that would be enough to free up McKay to score (who's not that great a kick either I might add).

So Charlie is top banana, no need to make any assumptions there.

You think opposition teams will seriously focus on Casboult as the 2nd forward and leave a McKay, Kerr, Silvagni or others as the 3rd or lesser options?

I say there is a long history of our performance that says that's bogus logic.

Your bogus logic is ignoring that on the odd occasion, when casboutl has been the top banana, that he has managed to eek out 4 goals on 5 occassions, and 3 goals on 8 more occasions. Playing the numbers game says 1 in 7.3 games, he'll kick 3 goals or more. Can he be relied upon, week in week out? No. Can he do some damage as the 2nd or 3rd tall....yes. The numbers don't have a bias, unlike you.

I think if Charlie, Casboult, Wright, Silvagni and McKay are in the mix Casboult will be last on the oppositions hit list because he hurts them so little, he has little physical presence, can be covered by a smaller player, isn't a significant scoring threat and even if he gets hold of the ball he is likely to shoot us in the foot at any moment.

Is that what we want, is that fair of those 20 year olds?

If he is last on their hit list or if he is in the VFL, you are not getting any extra help to the 20 year olds under your scenario. Having him in the side, at least he can throw his weight around.

I don't expect you to change your mind, but perhaps you can open it up a bit.

If you have Curnowfides, Casboult and McKay in the same forwardline....name me a side with 3 backmen tall enough to take them. You can't because we are hoarding them all.

Maybe Essendon - Hurley, Hartley and Brown, or West Coast - McGovern, Barass an Schofield.

But I agree, making each of them accountable for the Curnow Show, Casboult and Mckay is far better than letting Charlie get double teamed by the loose man back.

Your bogus logic is ignoring that on the odd occasion, when casboutl has been the top banana, that he has managed to eek out 4 goals on 5 occassions, and 3 goals on 8 more occasions. Playing the numbers game says 1 in 7.3 games, he'll kick 3 goals or more. Can he be relied upon, week in week out? No. Can he do some damage as the 2nd or 3rd tall....yes. The numbers don't have a bias, unlike you.

If he is last on their hit list or if he is in the VFL, you are not getting any extra help to the 20 year olds under your scenario. Having him in the side, at least he can throw his weight around.

I don't expect you to change your mind, but perhaps you can open it up a bit.

And how many of those 4 goal games helped get us a win?

He doesn't throw his weight around, that is part of the problem!

The game plan we use that sees him score doesn't help us, that is my main point, we have tried him over and over and he takes us nowhere!

And how many of those 4 goal games helped get us a win?

He doesn't throw his weight around, that is part of the problem!

The game plan we use that sees him score doesn't help us, that is my main point, we have tried him over and over and he takes us nowhere!

Your logic is completely up $hit creek.

The games he kicks goals in we lose...so lets not play him. Or lets not let him kick goals?

Wait, last week Curnowfides kicked 5 as did Wright. But we lost. Yep, better drop them too. Didn't help us get a win. The game plan we use that sees them score doesn't help us win.

Yes, i am being sarcastic. Sadly, you are not.

Give it up.

We don't have a 100 goal a game player collecting dust in the VFL. Excluding casboult...
Our #1 target has played about 25 games.
Our #2 target has played 2.
Our #3 target has played 0.

Love him or hate him, we are better off playing him at present because we got SFA else. That which we do have would benefit from having him in the side.


Missed 8 weeks from casboults hit.
[flash=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/v/N3u1epveWm0[/flash]

Ask him if he'll be looking over his shoulder next time he plays Carlton.

Your logic is completely up $hit creek.

The games he kicks goals in we lose...so lets not play him. Or lets not let him kick goals?

Wait, last week Curnowfides kicked 5 as did Wright. But we lost. Yep, better drop them too. Didn't help us get a win. The game plan we use that sees them score doesn't help us win.

Yes, i am being sarcastic. Sadly, you are not.

Give it up.

We don't have a 100 goal a game player collecting dust in the VFL. Excluding casboult...
Our #1 target has played about 25 games.
Our #2 target has played 2.
Our #3 target has played 0.

Love him or hate him, we are better off playing him at present because we got SFA else. That which we do have would benefit from having him in the side.


Missed 8 weeks from casboults hit.
[flash=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/v/N3u1epveWm0[/flash]

Ask him if he'll be looking over his shoulder next time he plays Carlton.

Bah Ha, what a load of rubbish.

Casboult had an uncontested run at a bouncing ball and jumped in the air from behind like a genuine piss-weak player, the same sort of player we would roast, a real Ziebell moment!

Is that the highlight for you from his whole career?

I wouldn't be surprised to find the wide camera shot showing Henderson pushing Casboult into the contest! ;D That was the sort of piss-weak sh1te we got out of both of them, not your sort of Johnathon Brown career highlight moment!

While he plays SFA is what we get, and it's not going to get any better!

Bah Ha, what a load of rubbish.

Casboult had an uncontested run at a bouncing ball and jumped in the air from behind like a genuine piss-weak player, the same sort of player we would roast, a real Ziebell moment!

Is that the highlight for you from his whole career?

I wouldn't be surprised to find the wide camera shot showing Henderson pushing Casboult into the contest! ;D That was the sort of piss-weak sh1te we got out of both of them, not your sort of Johnathon Brown career highlight moment!

While he plays SFA is what we get, and it's not going to get any better!

You didn't say does he 'legally' throw his weight around.

Ask Peter Caven if he had 2nd thoughts after he headbutted Pluggers elbow.

Gary Ablett Sr used to get suspended for similar acts regularly.

Do i need to mention Barry Hall as well?

Its those types of players others fear more than those who play by the rules. Less predictable.

I'm not saying i'm condoning it, i'm just proving you wrong.

You didn't say does he 'legally' throw his weight around.

Ask Peter Caven if he had 2nd thoughts after he headbutted Pluggers elbow.

Gary Ablett Sr used to get suspended for similar acts regularly.

Do i need to mention Barry Hall as well?

Its those types of players others fear more than those who play by the rules. Less predictable.

I'm not saying i'm condoning it, i'm just proving you wrong.

You've proven nothing, nobody will take you seriously, and comparing Casboult to Plugger, Barry Hall, Ablett Snr, are you joking maybe you aren't! :o

Let me think about this, I can play on Levi Casboult or Plugger, Abletts Snr or Barry Hall! Shizen, I just don't know!  :-[

I'm betting if we survey enough footage we'll probably find Casboult stitching up a team-mate the same way! I'll ask Charlie Curnow if he knows any team-mates Meat has taken out! ;D

Thankfully Casboult is out there besides the kids we've drafted, setting the standards, teaching them the tricks, showing them the way to be a big boy player just like him! Helping them deal with the pressure, how to use their size and strength one on one, how to kick the pressure goals!

What more could we ask for, they'll all become superstars! ::)

Bowes booked for his charge on Weitering. (ie the one where the umpires didn't report him or even give a 50m penalty)

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-04-02/young-sun-cops-a-week-plus-fines-galore

I guess we have to take that as "umpires pay what they see".
Frustrating at the time though.

I guess we have to take that as "umpires pay what they see".
Frustrating at the time though.

Glad to see it finally picked up though

Glad to see it finally picked up though

True, and I think it may well be challenged.

The hurt part is how quickly the commentators and broadcast moved on, can you imagine if that had been Daniher, Riewoldt or McCartin on the end of Bowes hit?

What has Weitering done to deserve so little respect from the media, is being drafted by Carlton a good enough excuse?

What a shocking performance - but can't be too hard on the lads; representing a list that has been constructed incorrectly for maybe the 5th (lost count) iteration of the "rebuild" - reminds me of the Matrix and Zion being destroyed every generation.

I'll start with some positives, for brevity's sake:
- Thomas - best game I've seen him play for a long time - creative with the ball and in everything, particularly in the first half when there was still some form of a contest
- Charlie - scarily already the best player on our list.  Not enough superlatives to describe him or the wood he gives me
- Ed - loving seeing him freed up a bit and putting that tank of his to use - and didn't quite butcher it all that badly which was refreshing

Negatives:
- The list - Well, we got the recruitment wrong from day one, didn't we, with Murphy representing our weak, small on-ballers. I've always said that to be under 6'1 and an effective midfielder, you need to make up for the lack of size with exceptional tackling and goal kicking ability.  Murphy possesses neither and if he wasn't a number 1 pick, would be considered a B grader at best.  I have hope for Fisher and SPS but not as midfielders - it's simply too hard to compete when every other midfield in the AFL consists of beast units.  it's boys vs men in the middle and we are being fiddled with.  Despite giving up oodles of natural talent, I'd rather see Ed and maybe even Byrne, join Kennedy and Cripps (and later Dow when developed) in the guts - at least then we would have some physicality - at the moment our best chance of a clearance is from a high free kick on one of our midgets
- Forward line - structure and personnel. Same can be said every week.  Every other team looks to have some poise and general tactic going forward.  We believe that is unnecessary.  A real worry that Harry still can't get a game despite our shocking stocks.  All I know is bringing back Silvagni isn't the answer - I love him because he is Carlton royalty but he is such a nothing player.  There's 1-2 "Gunstons" every generation and he's not one
- Weitering - don't know WTF is going on here.  Continuing on from his miserable 2nd year blues.  At best its a confidence issue.  At worst, he couldn't care less.  I'm quick to judge though (derrrr) and I firmly believe that if you're being paid a handsome sum to run on a football field, you can at least run, contest and tackle.  Earn your damn paycheck.
- Jones - is he back to his uncoordinated best?  Every spoil and jump he attempts is so poorly timed its comical to watch.  He looks like Yoshi doing a floating jump, if anyone is familiar.
- Simpson - his best has now become far from his worst.  Still my favourite player, and played a belter last week in fact, but I can just see him burning out mid year, which will make the absence of Docherty even more apparent, given Byrne is a clown.

AFL legends blast ‘deplorable’ skill level

Footy legends Wayne Carey and Paul Roos have taken an axe to the current game, describing what they’ve seen this weekend as a disgrace.

Carey said outside of the rematch between last year’s grand finalists Richmond and Adelaide, the skill level on show had been “deplorable”.

“St Kilda couldn’t hit the side of a barn,” Carey told Triple M.

He also criticised Carlton for missing targets with two metre handballs and dropping chest marks. “Some of the skill level this weekend has not even been at VFL level, below that,” Carey said.

“Players today cannot kick on their opposite foot. A lot of people applaud when they’re running straight at the goal and they’ve got no left foot and they do a checkside and everyone says what a great goal. What a load of crap. He should have kicked it on his left foot.

“That’s what astounds me. These elite, professional players are no good on their opposite side.”

Roos said it was the long-term effect of the increasing amount of time kids were spending doing their homework and playing computer games instead of kicking a footy.

As much as I hate Roos I reckon there is something in this.  When I was growing up there was footy, or ... footy. I had one under my arm wherever I went. Taught myself to kick left foot in the style of Neville Fields, became so good that coaches didn't know which was my natural side.  I could lie and say I was a 'coodabeen' but truth is I tried out for Carlton (back in the days of a 'Form 4') and wasn't good enough.  My boy is one of those "naturals" who excels at whatever sport he tries. One season of soccer? Best & Fairest. One season of Volleyball? Second in state finals. Season before last - BOG in winning footy GF. Last Year - B&F. Never touches a  footy unless it's during a scheduled training season or match day. Spends hours every day on his game console AND CAN'T KICK LEFT FOOT. 

- Jones - is he back to his uncoordinated best?  Every spoil and jump he attempts is so poorly timed its comical to watch.  He looks like Yoshi doing a floating jump, if anyone is familiar.

My son said watching Jones launch to spoil without attempting a mark is like watching a fight between "The Zohan" and "The Phantom" Full of puff and bluster but barely a touch! ;D
Not sure if I should be happy or sad about that! ;D

As much as I hate Roos I reckon there is something in this.  When I was growing up there was footy, or ... footy. I had one under my arm wherever I went. Taught myself to kick left foot in the style of Neville Fields, became so good that coaches didn't know which was my natural side.  I could lie and say I was a 'coodabeen' but truth is I tried out for Carlton (back in the days of a 'Form 4') and wasn't good enough.  My boy is one of those "naturals" who excels at whatever sport he tries. One season of soccer? Best & Fairest. One season of Volleyball? Second in state finals. Season before last - BOG in winning footy GF. Last Year - B&F. Never touches a  footy unless it's during a scheduled training season or match day. Spends hours every day on his game console AND CAN'T KICK LEFT FOOT. 

Kids having homework and computer games would be a new phenomenon..... to an 85 year old.

Both those "experts" would have been raving about round 1 which overall was pretty good.

Roos / Saints / Carlton were horrible round 2 though.

Kids having homework and computer games would be a new phenomenon..... to an 85 year old.

Both those "experts" would have been raving about round 1 which overall was pretty good.

Roos / Saints / Carlton were horrible round 2 though.

Paul Roos has been on about this issue for a long time, it's not just a 2018 Rnd 2 issue.

He had a major article/interview last year about some of the issues the AFL has long term, in it he discussed one of the strongest arguments for the return of the AFL Reserves was to address the falling skills base. I agree with him, at least with a reserves you end up with a list of full-time players at both levels.

It's not even new to last year, in one of the panel shows he mentioned these discussions have been going on back before Adrian Anderson left the AFL.

Also, close games and exciting results are no indication of skills. You can have two rubbish teams turn the ball over continuously like Carlton / Nthmond Rnd 1 this year, and still have scores level in the last quarter.

You also get knife edge games like yesterdays' Dawks / Handbaggers that were littered with last quarter mistakes over which BT drooled like an idiot! But lets not dress it up, neither coach would be happy about the wash up of that game!

One thing that shocked me from Roos article/interview was to read that even in 2017 our officials are not full-time. It seems ridiculous that the expectations for performance from the players isn't mirrored by the same expectation on the game's officials.

Surely the 120 or so officials it takes to run AFL matches each weekend should be career professionals, not part-timers working a 2nd job!

Paul Roos has been on about this issue for a long time, it's not just a 2018 Rnd 2 issue.

He had a major article/interview last year about some of the issues the AFL has long term, in it he discussed one of the strongest arguments for the return of the AFL Reserves was to address the falling skills base. I agree with him, at least with a reserves you end up with a list of full-time players at both levels.

It's not even new to last year, in one of the panel shows he mentioned these discussions have been going on back before Adrian Anderson left the AFL.

Also, close games and exciting results are no indication of skills. You can have two rubbish teams turn the ball over continuously like Carlton / Nthmond Rnd 1 this year, and still have scores level in the last quarter.

You also get knife edge games like yesterdays' Dawks / Handbaggers that were littered with last quarter mistakes over which BT drooled like an idiot! But lets not dress it up, neither coach would be happy about the wash up of that game!

One thing that shocked me from Roos article/interview was to read that even in 2017 our officials are not full-time. It seems ridiculous that the expectations for performance from the players isn't mirrored by the same expectation on the game's officials.

Surely the 120 or so officials it takes to run AFL matches each weekend should be career professionals, not part-timers working a 2nd job!

Paul Roos is a bit of a negative whinger. Proposing some first rate solutions there. Computer games, homework and reserves. All makes perfect sense.

Paul Roos is a bit of a negative whinger. Proposing some first rate solutions there. Computer games, homework and reserves. All makes perfect sense.

Yet regardless of what he thinks might be the cause, he seems more than qualified to discuss AFL skills as they had occurred.

You've proven nothing, nobody will take you seriously, and comparing Casboult to Plugger, Barry Hall, Ablett Snr, are you joking maybe you aren't! :o

Let me think about this, I can play on Levi Casboult or Plugger, Abletts Snr or Barry Hall! Shizen, I just don't know!  :-[

I'm betting if we survey enough footage we'll probably find Casboult stitching up a team-mate the same way! I'll ask Charlie Curnow if he knows any team-mates Meat has taken out! ;D

Thankfully Casboult is out there besides the kids we've drafted, setting the standards, teaching them the tricks, showing them the way to be a big boy player just like him! Helping them deal with the pressure, how to use their size and strength one on one, how to kick the pressure goals!

What more could we ask for, they'll all become superstars! ::)

As i've said on numerous occasions. I've been pioneering for a casboult replacement for years now. I am not a fan. He is still our best bet, which is a sad indictment on our list.

As for talking about him....i'm done. You are too far down the rabbit hole to see any sense, your mind is made up. So be it. Just know you extremist views in regards to him are in the minority. Even those, like me, who would rather we didn't have to play him think you are off your rocker in your hatred towards him.

I'm usually very optimistic about our players, but I cannot defend him any longer, and I find it a mystery as to how he has survived this long!

I foresee the risk that the old Carlton will surface, and that potential coach killer will surface undoing BB if he hasn't already! In the old Carlton, there will be people positioning themselves to pull the trigger and that player could be the loaded gun!

I don't want that to happen, and I don't want the negative impact that something like that will have affecting our future talent, but if it happens it will affect them you can be sure of that!

If the old Carlton returns and the sh1te does go down, who is the next coach, SOS?

I'm usually very optimistic about our players, but I cannot defend him any longer, and I find it a mystery as to how he has survived this long!

I foresee the risk that the old Carlton will surface, and that potential coach killer will surface undoing BB if he hasn't already! In the old Carlton, there will be people positioning themselves to pull the trigger and that player could be the loaded gun!

I don't want that to happen, and I don't want the negative impact that something like that will have affecting our future talent, but if it happens it will affect them you can be sure of that!

If the old Carlton returns and the sh1te does go down, who is the next coach, SOS?

See you anger, is focussed on Casboult. I understand that frustration. However, he is who is he is and we have enough of a sample to suggest that is never going to change.

You suggest he might be a coach killer. I believe the coach has had more than enough opportunity to get rid of him. He has been re-signed under his watch, so he wears the responsibility of the output.

Bolton wanted him on the list (because no readymade alternative exists IMO) which means SOS and Macca couldn't get one.

Your anger should be focussed on one of those 3. They are the ones that pick him, sign him and play him. Casboult is never going to be fev, stop expecting him to be. You don't like him being on the list, or in the side, direct your anger at the ones that make that happen.

Casboult is never going to be fev, stop expecting him to be.

How can I expect him to be a Fev if I think he is incapable of it?

My argument is he is wasting our time, by removing development games from a youthful replacement, and potentially even teaching the kids bad habits along the way!

I won't get into the debate about his capacity to kill the coach, I appreciate any player has that capacity, some just seem more likely to deliver on it than others!

How can I expect him to be a Fev if I think he is incapable of it?

My argument is he is wasting our time, by removing development games from a youthful replacement, and potentially even teaching the kids bad habits along the way!

I won't get into the debate about his capacity to kill the coach, I appreciate any player has that capacity, some just seem more likely to deliver on it than others!

What you are suggesting is murder....or at least manslaughter.
I'm suggesting for Bolton it is coaching suicide.

I'm usually very optimistic about our players, but I cannot defend him any longer, and I find it a mystery as to how he has survived this long!

I foresee the risk that the old Carlton will surface, and that potential coach killer will surface undoing BB if he hasn't already! In the old Carlton, there will be people positioning themselves to pull the trigger and that player could be the loaded gun!

I don't want that to happen, and I don't want the negative impact that something like that will have affecting our future talent, but if it happens it will affect them you can be sure of that!

If the old Carlton returns and the sh1te does go down, who is the next coach, SOS?

You talking about Murphy here?

How can I expect him to be a Fev if I think he is incapable of it?

My argument is he is wasting our time, by removing development games from a youthful replacement, and potentially even teaching the kids bad habits along the way!

I won't get into the debate about his capacity to kill the coach, I appreciate any player has that capacity, some just seem more likely to deliver on it than others!

While he's out best forward and plays the forward/ruck role decently he'll be playing. Once McKay or Kerr come through they will eventually take his role, until then, Levi fills the role nicely enough.  Did a good job backing up Kreuzer as well as kicking 34 goals. Not a b ad result for someone from round 3 of a rookie draft. Don't know what you expected. You've hated him ever since we replaced your love child Hampson in his current role. Hurt like hell when we traded Hammer didn't it. Everyone knows that. Admit it and you'll feel so much better about Levi.

Levi kicked 5 behinds in that fateful game against GC (R22, 2012). After which the club kicked Ratten's behind. There was a rumour I read somewhere that Ratten confronted Levi after the match and told him his time at Carlton was up.

Anyway, where were we ? Ah yes, Levi, yay or nay ?

zzzzzzz........................

Casboult is a 10 min a quarter ruckman who also plays as a forward pocket along the lines of Josh Jenkins.....he was out of his depth vs a monster like Witts, Kruezer cant handle Witts that well so I dont/didnt expect Casboult to work wonders either. It left Charlie Curnow one out vs a good full back in May and the rest of their tall backs like Thompson. It was more damaging what was happening to Curnow than worrying what Casboult was or wasnt doing...Curnow is our ace in the pack and we left him one out with no support down forward vs a dirty unit like May. Mckay should have played to support Curnow more than anything else, the ruck was a lost cause anyway but another tall body down forward would have helped Charlie more and given us more opportunities to score from both marks and crumbing.

The MC/selectors, Bolton all should take the blame for the ludicrous selection of Poulsen and omission of McKay......you cant judge or criticise Casboult, we lost that game the moment the final team was announced..

Agree with all of this 100%

Casboult is a 10 min a quarter ruckman who also plays as a forward pocket along the lines of Josh Jenkins.....he was out of his depth vs a monster like Witts, Kruezer cant handle Witts that well so I dont/didnt expect Casboult to work wonders either. It left Charlie Curnow one out vs a good full back in May and the rest of their tall backs like Thompson. It was more damaging what was happening to Curnow than worrying what Casboult was or wasnt doing...Curnow is our ace in the pack and we left him one out with no support down forward vs a dirty unit like May. Mckay should have played to support Curnow more than anything else, the ruck was a lost cause anyway but another tall body down forward would have helped Charlie more and given us more opportunities to score from both marks and crumbing.

The MC/selectors, Bolton all should take the blame for the ludicrous selection of Poulsen and omission of McKay......you cant judge or criticise Casboult, we lost that game the moment the final team was announced..

I have absolutely no idea what they were thinking when Kreuzer was out.

I have absolutely no idea what they were thinking when Kreuzer was out.

Maybe it went something like this.
Our collective team height is ...cms. That means we're too tall.
We've decided to maximally reduce it. What's the solution?
Huh what's that?  Kruez out Polson in. Good idea - done deal.

Joking of course. But I'm befuddled  :-\

Casboult is a 10 min a quarter ruckman who also plays as a forward pocket along the lines of Josh Jenkins.....he was out of his depth vs a monster like Witts, Kruezer cant handle Witts that well so I dont/didnt expect Casboult to work wonders either. It left Charlie Curnow one out vs a good full back in May and the rest of their tall backs like Thompson. It was more damaging what was happening to Curnow than worrying what Casboult was or wasnt doing...Curnow is our ace in the pack and we left him one out with no support down forward vs a dirty unit like May. Mckay should have played to support Curnow more than anything else, the ruck was a lost cause anyway but another tall body down forward would have helped Charlie more and given us more opportunities to score from both marks and crumbing.

The MC/selectors, Bolton all should take the blame for the ludicrous selection of Poulsen and omission of McKay......you cant judge or criticise Casboult, we lost that game the moment the final team was announced..

There endeth the lesson.

Given how little I expected from Casboult I was surprised at how little it actually hurt us. 

It pains me to say it, because I love Kreuzer,  but wouldn't it be nice to have a ruckman who can play a couple of full seasons back to back in top form without breaking down?

Casboult is a 10 min a quarter ruckman who also plays as a forward pocket along the lines of Josh Jenkins.....he was out of his depth vs a monster like Witts, Kruezer cant handle Witts that well so I dont/didnt expect Casboult to work wonders either. It left Charlie Curnow one out vs a good full back in May and the rest of their tall backs like Thompson. It was more damaging what was happening to Curnow than worrying what Casboult was or wasnt doing...Curnow is our ace in the pack and we left him one out with no support down forward vs a dirty unit like May. Mckay should have played to support Curnow more than anything else, the ruck was a lost cause anyway but another tall body down forward would have helped Charlie more and given us more opportunities to score from both marks and crumbing.

The MC/selectors, Bolton all should take the blame for the ludicrous selection of Poulsen and omission of McKay......you cant judge or criticise Casboult, we lost that game the moment the final team was announced..

Makes a lot of sense to me.

It was more damaging what was happening to Curnow than worrying what Casboult was or wasnt doing...Curnow is our ace in the pack and we left him one out with no support down forward vs a dirty unit like May. Mckay should have played to support Curnow more than anything else, the ruck was a lost cause anyway but another tall body down forward would have helped Charlie more and given us more opportunities to score from both marks and crumbing.

We posted about this for a full week prior to that "surprise late withdrawal" of Kreuzer.

The only problem I have with that McKay / Charlie scenario is this. Given the weak minded approach by our MC, where do you think McKay would have ended up after Casboult's first 5 min in the ruck, would they have turned to Jones ahead of McKay, many of us think they should have but it seems the MC didn't rate Jones. Even in just a few minutes at the end of the game, admittedly in junk time, Jones approach and manic 2nd efforts changed the complexion of the centre bounce. He was able to demonstrate what he did in the VFL was applicable to the AFL against a far superior opponent.

I think in the absence of a genuine ruck starting Jones for the first couple of stoppages in a game at least should influences the opponents mindset. He's not someone they can just discard and free wheel away from, they have to deal with his jump at the tap and with his 2nd efforts and run.

Maybe it went something like this.
Our collective team height is ...cms. That means we're too tall.
We've decided to maximally reduce it. What's the solution?
Huh what's that?  Kruez out Polson in. Good idea - done deal.

Joking of course. But I'm befuddled  :-\

It's really not that hard.

Kruezer out lets bring in a Ruckman.

Phillips returning after a long term injury is at least 2 weeks away.
Lobbe is out.
De Koning?   He is 90kg dripping wet.   Will get slaughtered.   Might has well concede the ruck and play an extra mid.
McKay will be smashed in the ruck and form hasn't been great.   Extra mid?

It's really not that hard.

Kruezer out lets bring in a Ruckman.

Phillips returning after a long term injury is at least 2 weeks away.
Lobbe is out.
De Koning?   He is 90kg dripping wet.   Will get slaughtered.   Might has well concede the ruck and play an extra mid.
McKay will be smashed in the ruck and form hasn't been great.   Extra mid?

Playing McKay at least would have helped Curnow and Weitering up forward.

Everyone said it before the game so it's not a hindsight thing. It was a terrible decision and it cost us any chance of winning and now Bolton for the first time in his short career has a little bit of heat on him.

It's really not that hard.

Kruezer out lets bring in a Ruckman.

Phillips returning after a long term injury is at least 2 weeks away.
Lobbe is out.
De Koning?   He is 90kg dripping wet.   Will get slaughtered.   Might has well concede the ruck and play an extra mid.
McKay will be smashed in the ruck and form hasn't been great.   Extra mid?

McKay could've played forward though with a run in the ruck. Only have Charlie there to take on the whole defence was a bad move.

Everyone said it before the game so it's not a hindsight thing. It was a terrible decision and it cost us any chance of winning and now Bolton for the first time in his short career has a little bit of heat on him.

BB gets the heat.

I don't think the old money floating around Carlton can be described as "a little but", that is where the heat will come from. The Judge must have a hot ear after last weekend.

Even though it may not be solely BB's fault, this has to be an MC issue, BB's the man with a plan!

McKay could've played forward though with a run in the ruck. Only have Charlie there to take on the whole defence was a bad move.

Beyond stupid.

Harry was clearly the go to guy in the circumstances of no Lobbe and Philips....he is a forward who can ruck....

Insted we threw Polson in?!! WTF. Not even ripping it up in the 2s.

With Weiters out of sorts and Dow a bit roo in headlights, we essentially played the game three players short.

Outstanding effort from the MC.

Outstanding effort from the MC.

Given how apparently obvious the selection requirement was to everyone before the actual game, what could be happening behind the scenes to cause this?

Given how apparently obvious the selection requirement was to everyone before the actual game, what could be happening behind the scenes to cause this?

surely one must assume that - for whatever reason - Harry is quite out of favour with BB, the MC -or both?

Given how apparently obvious the selection requirement was to everyone before the actual game, what could be happening behind the scenes to cause this?

That's the thing that has me buggered.
It was so obvious a strange selection decision....what were they thinking?
What is the secret 'plan'?

That game was lost because of lack of midfield impact, poor mindset, and horrid skill errors. Kruezer + Kennedy is 2 very good midfielders. If Lobbe or Phillips were playing and all the other factors were equal, we still would have lost.

The emphasis on the ruck is misplaced IMO. Teams win games and lose the ruck contest every week.

I read the report on the website about our NB players and comments from the coach about their game on the weekend. I don't know specifically why, and maybe it's more about what gets talked about on here, but what was said about McKay suggested to me that they are not overly happy with the way he is going.

"It was a step in the right direction for 'H', but the next challenge is building consistency."

I dont know. I just reread it and it didnt sound bad the second time.

I have it on good authority that when Harry first landed on our shores and bunked up initially with one of our more senior players (and his partner) he was quite the spoilt, lazy brat. Expected to have everything done for him and was exceptionally rude and ungrateful. Apparently he was moved on from that place when patience wore thin.
Not sure if this is a reflection on his current work ethic but maybe he thinks he's a bit better than the rest?

I have it on good authority that when Harry first landed on our shores and bunked up initially with one of our more senior players (and his partner) he was quite the spoilt, lazy brat. Expected to have everything done for him and was exceptionally rude and ungrateful. Apparently he was moved on from that place when patience wore thin.
Not sure if this is a reflection on his current work ethic but maybe he thinks he's a bit better than the rest?

I guess the SOS Character Meter was set to Snooze Mode when they interviewed him.

That's the thing that has me buggered.
It was so obvious a strange selection decision....what were they thinking?
What is the secret 'plan'?

Ive got one scenario that makes sense (without any inside knowledge) but the selection of Dow, O'Shea and Mullet ahead of blokes like Cunningham and McKay might tell a little bit about the issue currently bothering our club.

The selection of Polson confirms it, but from what I have heard, we are prioritising blokes that will do what is asked of them, and play the role assigned to them, ahead of others who may be just going.

Silvagni is the only selection that debunks this theory, as young Jack doesnt strike me as a take it for granted sort of bloke and works his dot off, but the fact they pushed him onball against Port Melbourne might simply point to him learning a different role at the moment.

I have it on good authority that when Harry first landed on our shores and bunked up initially with one of our more senior players (and his partner) he was quite the spoilt, lazy brat. Expected to have everything done for him and was exceptionally rude and ungrateful. Apparently he was moved on from that place when patience wore thin.
Not sure if this is a reflection on his current work ethic but maybe he thinks he's a bit better than the rest?

Not a good start, that's for sure. First impressions and all that....

I have it on good authority that when Harry first landed on our shores and bunked up initially with one of our more senior players (and his partner) he was quite the spoilt, lazy brat. Expected to have everything done for him and was exceptionally rude and ungrateful. Apparently he was moved on from that place when patience wore thin.

Not sure if this is a reflection on his current work ethic but maybe he thinks he's a bit better than the rest?

Not sure it's reflected in his work ethic because the kids size and shape has improved significantly.

btw., In my experience at TAC Cup Development levels that is a pretty standard description of the kids being pushed through the system by their parents. Interestingly, a mate who is a senior TAC Cup coach tells me that is exactly the attitude many coaches and recruiters look for, they want kids with some arrogance and with an expectation of success as long as it is accompanied by a training work ethic. They want a Wayne Carey.

The thought is that if they are too timid and conformist they are unlikely to succeed at AFL level. But I don't agree, I think Bruce Doull is the perfect contradiction to those claims. FWIW, Weitering is more a Bruce Doull type than a Wayne Carey.

Doull is another excellent contrast for what has happened with Weitering. Look at Doull's first few seasons. I know I've posted this before but Doull was surrounded by Waite, Hall, Lofts, Goold, Pinnell, McKay and allowed to develop for 3 or 4 years before he became a key feature alongside Southby. Not a bad apprenticeship!

I read the report on the website about our NB players and comments from the coach about their game on the weekend. I don't know specifically why, and maybe it's more about what gets talked about on here, but what was said about McKay suggested to me that they are not overly happy with the way he is going.

"It was a step in the right direction for 'H', but the next challenge is building consistency."

I dont know. I just reread it and it didnt sound bad the second time.

Interestingly we have a 'like for like' comparison with his twin brother working in another system. As yet, there has been no indication that North want to fast track Ben into the firsts, even though he has not had the injury problems that his brother has had.  Maybe we are expecting too much of a 205 cm kid still trying to work out his body and how best to use it against men.

Maybe we are expecting too much of a 205 cm kid still trying to work out his body and how best to use it against men.

Very true, but Norp have a settled, reliable and mature KPD structured around Tarrant and Thompson which is also a factor.

I'm sure if we had an equivalent KPF structure the calls to accelerate McKay wouldn't exist.

Next game our KPF structure could be full of 20 year olds! :o

I guess the SOS Character Meter was set to Snooze Mode when they interviewed him.

My first thoughts too.

From the Coaches (and says it all).

CARLTON v GOLD COAST
10 Tom Lynch (GC)
8 Jarryd Lyons (GC)
4 Jack Martin (GC)
3 David Swallow (GC)
2 Nick Holman (GC)
2 Jarrod Witts (GC)
1 Ed Curnow (Carl)

Playing McKay at least would have helped Curnow and Weitering up forward.

Everyone said it before the game so it's not a hindsight thing. It was a terrible decision and it cost us any chance of winning and now Bolton for the first time in his short career has a little bit of heat on him.

I get that it didnt work but the other options where piss poor.   M Its not like we passed over Shane Mumford or Justin Madden who where running around in the twos.

McKay would have added zero in the ruck.   5 hit outs max.  Maybe a goal or two up forward but with the delivery from the midfield more likley zero

No one in that VFL side would have made any difference.

This game wasnt lost at the selection table

And for the record a three tall forward line?  Yeah that would help our crowded and congested forward line.    A defenders dream

Can someone tell me the four emergencies for the Richmond game?

I am working on a theory that Polson was selected for a period of good work over the preseason and not one game at VFL level.    Slightly left field

From the Coaches (and says it all).

CARLTON v GOLD COAST
10 Tom Lynch (GC)
8 Jarryd Lyons (GC)
4 Jack Martin (GC)
3 David Swallow (GC)
2 Nick Holman (GC)
2 Jarrod Witts (GC)
1 Ed Curnow (Carl)

Could have had Lyons.....his stats last season were impressive too and in a poor team...

From the Coaches (and says it all).

CARLTON v GOLD COAST
10 Tom Lynch (GC)
8 Jarryd Lyons (GC)
4 Jack Martin (GC)
3 David Swallow (GC)
2 Nick Holman (GC)
2 Jarrod Witts (GC)
1 Ed Curnow (Carl)

Dew has a lot to do with that IMO.  Has a good footy pedigree - has worked with the right clubs. He also has footy smarts and will get a lot out of that group.

I think anyone who expects GC to fold without a fight is barking up the wrong tree.
They made some poor choices in putting that team together, but they still have a good portion of the cream from several drafts. With the right coaching they will be competitive.

Can someone tell me the four emergencies for the Richmond game?

I am working on a theory that Polson was selected for a period of good work over the preseason and not one game at VFL level.    Slightly left field

Emg: David Cuningham, Cameron Polson, Harry McKay, Cameron O'Shea

My first thoughts too.

Maybe anything is better than nothing!

my 2 cents worth.

midfield was where it all fell down.  not enough pressure, running, skill etc... all teams attack and defend through the midfield, and when the midfield is down, everyone else suffers.

we're building a midfield almost from scratch.  We were missing these blokes, and it hurt : Kreuzer, Kennedy & Lang will play the majority of games in the coming years you'd think.  And these kids are good quality and need more games under their belts : SPS, Fisher & Dow.  And we need these guys to come on and turn out to be good solid players atleast : Cunningham & O'Brien.

we're still too shallow with talent & experience in the middle to afford to lose 3 mature midfielders, while also carrying kids like Dow & Polson.  the fact they selected those kids ahead of more reliable and seasoned types like Kerridge & Graham tells me the coach / match committee is still in development phase.  they're trying to pump games into kids still.

as impatient as I am, I have to accept we're still not quite ready to move up the ladder yet, especially not with the little run of injuries in the midfield.  I think the club already has the bones of a pretty good midfield, but 3 didn't play, and some need more time to develop.  and they need to show a bit more pressure and intent or it won't matter who's in the team.  atleast that can be fixed sometimes in as little as a week.  we need patience grasshoppers. 

It was a pretty horrid game, so bad it took me 4 days to think of something positive to say. 

I get that it didnt work but the other options where piss poor.   M Its not like we passed over Shane Mumford or Justin Madden who where running around in the twos.

McKay would have added zero in the ruck.   5 hit outs max.  Maybe a goal or two up forward but with the delivery from the midfield more likley zero

No one in that VFL side would have made any difference.

This game wasnt lost at the selection table

And for the record a three tall forward line?  Yeah that would help our crowded and congested forward line.    A defenders dream

If Kreuzer was there though Casboult would've been forward. All it would've been as talls nwas McKay and Curnow rather than Casboult and Curnow. It would've had the effect of splitting their defence a bit more. McKay would've added value around the ground too when he was on the ball.

In the end though, our attitude and workrate was so poor that it wouldn't have mattered who we picked.

If Lynch doesn't play, we win. Given our performance, that's a truly frightful thought.

If Lynch doesn't play, we win. Given our performance, that's a truly frightful thought.

Not sure about that... :D
If it wasn't Lynch kicking them someone else would have.

If Lynch doesn't play, we win. Given our performance, that's a truly frightful thought.

The more I think about Lynch's haul of goals, the angrier I get. The prick has only beat up on us (twice), no one else. FFS surely the days of bags like that from flat track bullies are over. Start a fight, niggle at him, do something, anything.

I get that it didnt work but the other options where piss poor.   M Its not like we passed over Shane Mumford or Justin Madden who where running around in the twos.

McKay would have added zero in the ruck.   5 hit outs max.  Maybe a goal or two up forward but with the delivery from the midfield more likley zero

No one in that VFL side would have made any difference.

This game wasnt lost at the selection table

And for the record a three tall forward line?  Yeah that would help our crowded and congested forward line.    A defenders dream

McKay in, meant Casboult was the full time ruck. McKays potential hitout stats mean nothing.

Its the forwardline (and Charlie) that suffered with the kreuzer out.

Not sure about that... :D
If it wasn't Lynch kicking them someone else would have.

lods, no doubt someone had to be on the end of those F50 entries, but no one as good as Lynch. So yes, I was kidding about us winning, but the greater point is just about having one player that takes us to the cleaners, and not being able to do anything. Happens too often for mine.

The more I think about Lynch's haul of goals, the angrier I get. The prick has only beat up on us (twice), no one else. FFS surely the days of bags like that from flat track bullies are over. Start a fight, niggle at him, do something, anything.

Yes, agree. Double team, triple team, do something.

lods, no doubt someone had to be on the end of those F50 entries, but no one as good as Lynch. So yes, I was kidding about us winning, but the greater point is just about having one player that takes us to the cleaners, and not being able to do anything. Happens too often for mine.

Yes, agree. Double team, triple team, do something.

Did you see or watch the game.....? ffs.

Can someone tell me the four emergencies for the Richmond game?

I am working on a theory that Polson was selected for a period of good work over the preseason and not one game at VFL level.    Slightly left field

I got to this conclusion too.

Left field or not it points that the kids just take for granted they're going to play footy.

It explains why o Shea and mullet are playing straight up too.

McKay in, meant Casboult was the full time ruck. McKays potential hitout stats mean nothing.

Its the forwardline (and Charlie) that suffered with the kreuzer out.

Weitering played as the extra tall so he had McKay's role.  

So McKay in for Kruezer makes no sense unless you drop Weitering or play him back.

Weitering played as the extra tall so he had McKay's role.  

So McKay in for Kruezer makes no sense unless you drop Weitering or play him back.

Silvagni went out though so it wasn't really an extra tall.

Silvagni went out though so it wasn't really an extra tall.

I think Silvagni plays a little taller than his size as well.

I think dropping Silvagni hasn't helped our situation with Weitering, we cannot keep dropping the kids and blaming them for all our teams sins, they'll end up walking when it's contract renewal time.

If we drop Weitering and Dow this week, between them and Silvagni that could be 50% of our core group for the next decade. I'd expect them along with Cripps, Marchbank and SPS to be among the first picked every week.

Mind you I don't put SoJ in the same league as the others, but it's clear to me he could be our new Earl Spalding.

Surely it's in Dow interests to let him play seconds and get his hands o the pill 20 or so times and get accustomed to the speed...for a few weeks at least.

He surely looks like a deer in headlights in the last 2 games - no shame on the lad if he's not 'ready' just yet....

Heck, he's 18 years old.

Aren't we about winning games this year?

Not going to win picking kids who are off the pace eg Dow, Polson and blokes badly out of touch eg Weiters. (let alone the others playing like 5 y olds)

19 players doesn't get the job done against 22.

Surely it's in Dow interests to let him play seconds and get his hands o the pill 20 or so times and get accustomed to the speed...for a few weeks at least.

He surely looks like a deer in headlights in the last 2 games - no shame on the lad if he's not 'ready' just yet....

Heck, he's 18 years old.

Aren't we about winning games this year?

Not going to win picking kids who are off the pace eg Dow, Polson and blokes badly out of touch eg Weiters. (let alone the others playing like 5 y olds)

19 players doesn't get the job done against 22.

Are we playing to win games?

It looks to me like we are neither Arthur or Martha!

Is it a result of the BB employment situation?

Surely it's in Dow interests to let him play seconds and get his hands o the pill 20 or so times and get accustomed to the speed...for a few weeks at least.

He surely looks like a deer in headlights in the last 2 games - no shame on the lad if he's not 'ready' just yet....

Heck, he's 18 years old.

Aren't we about winning games this year?

Not going to win picking kids who are off the pace eg Dow, Polson and blokes badly out of touch eg Weiters. (let alone the others playing like 5 y olds)

19 players doesn't get the job done against 22.

It all depends on what standards are being set.

From what I have seen of Polson, he isn't going to make it, yet he has gotten two chances probably on the back of what I hear he does really well which is dedication and commitment.

IMHO where there is smoke there is fire.  Polson got a game I reckon based on dedication and commitment.

We have not been about standards much at Carlton over the last 20 odd years, but this is something that has been prioritised under Bolton.

IMHO where there is smoke there is fire.  Polson got a game I reckon based on dedication and commitment.

We have not been about standards much at Carlton over the last 20 odd years, but this is something that has been prioritised under Bolton.

It could be a 1% thing, and other non-negotiable acts that got Poulson a game.

Ed, Poulson, Cripps and Fisher were top of the tackle counts, each with at least twice as much as the other nearest team-mates.

Cripps is explainable given he's a slow inside mid, he gets to the ball 2nd quite a lot.

Ed obviously a tagger needs no explanation.

But to have the skinnies in Fisher and Poulson well ahead of the rest is great for them, but damning for the rest of the team, at least in my opinion!

Surely it's in Dow interests to let him play seconds and get his hands o the pill 20 or so times and get accustomed to the speed...for a few weeks at least.

He surely looks like a deer in headlights in the last 2 games - no shame on the lad if he's not 'ready' just yet....

Heck, he's 18 years old.

Aren't we about winning games this year?

Not going to win picking kids who are off the pace eg Dow, Polson and blokes badly out of touch eg Weiters. (let alone the others playing like 5 y olds)

19 players doesn't get the job done against 22.

x2

Who is on the CFC Match Committee? (serious question)

1. Bolton
2. Assistant Coaches?
3. Andy McKay?
4. SOS?
5. Sticks?
6. The tea lady?

Surely it's in Dow interests to let him play seconds and get his hands o the pill 20 or so times and get accustomed to the speed...for a few weeks at least.

He surely looks like a deer in headlights in the last 2 games - no shame on the lad if he's not 'ready' just yet....

Heck, he's 18 years old.

Aren't we about winning games this year?

Not going to win picking kids who are off the pace eg Dow, Polson and blokes badly out of touch eg Weiters. (let alone the others playing like 5 y olds)

19 players doesn't get the job done against 22.

Dow did indeed look a bit lost. We need to be careful we don't over-expose him for sure and perhaps he should join Weiters in the 2s for a week or two?

I don't understand why AFL coaches feel the need to take an attacking weapon like Dow and spend the next couple of seasons playing him as a tagger "for his own good!"

Firstly, he doesn't look like the unaccountable one way running type many of our others seem to be, secondly we should have opposition worrying about him not have him worrying about the opposition.

Same applies to Weitering and any other talented newbie. In Weitering's case, we took a talented intercept marking first class ball user and stood him on giants in the goal square. Who's fault is that the opposition, it a choice we make isn't it?

Our kids should not be in the squad just to give the old blokes a holiday! This concept of having the young kids "paying their dues" is just an excuse for recidivist bludgers to take full advantage!

Next time I'll say what I'm really thinking! :o

Weitering played as the extra tall so he had McKay's role.  

So McKay in for Kruezer makes no sense unless you drop Weitering or play him back.

No, as MBB pointed out, we also dropped SOSOS.

Weitering played as an extra witches hat. Who was down back for the large portions of the game. So we were short up forward no matter which way you slice it.

Not sure why we need to point this out. It's obvious to all. We had too many tall defenders....and not enough tall forwards / rucks.

No, as MBB pointed out, we also dropped SOSOS.

Weitering played as an extra witches hat. Who was down back for the large portions of the game. So we were short up forward no matter which way you slice it.

Not sure why we need to point this out. It's obvious to all. We had too many tall defenders....and not enough tall forwards / rucks.

I like Jack.   Nice kid and has a crack but is too under sized to be in the same conversation as McKay.    He is a classic tweener at the moment.   Really needs a massive tank or he is going to struggle for a role at AFL level.   Some talk that he may become an inside mid, but lets kid ourselves and pretend he is a key forward.   Seems obvious to all ;)   Other than me that is.

We could also talk about how Weitering played forward for most of the first 3 quarters kicking a goal in the 3rd, before Jones went into the ruck Levi forward and Weitering back.

We weren't short up forward.   We had at least 2 tall fowards in Curnow/Weitering or Levi.  Very few side are rocking more than 2 tall forwards.
  
I have said that we needed a ruckman, but options a to f where either crape or injured.

Given how we played McKay would have added very little up forward.

I like Jack.   Nice kid and has a crack but is too under sized to be in the same conversation as McKay.    He is a classic tweener at the moment.   Really needs a massive tank or he is going to struggle for a role at AFL level.   Some talk that he may become an inside mid, but lets kid ourselves and pretend he is a key forward.   Seems obvious to all ;)   Other than me that is.

We could also talk about how Weitering played forward for most of the first 3 quarters kicking a goal in the 3rd, before Jones went into the ruck Levi forward and Weitering back.

We weren't short up forward.   We had at least 2 tall fowards in Curnow/Weitering or Levi.  Very few side are rocking more than 2 tall forwards.
  
I have said that we needed a ruckman, but options a to f where either crape or injured.

Given how we played McKay would have added very little up forward.

Its like saying we weren't short in the ruck because we had Casboult there. BS. Our ruck division was compromised without Kreuzer in it.

Our forwardline was compromised without having Casboult in it *shudders*
...and yes Weitering was forward, and the only reason he kicked a goal was because someone tried to take him out. If it wasn't from that brain snap, Weitering would have been goalless. Incidently, that free kick and goal in the 3rd quarter, doubled weiterings possessions to that point. Yep, that was his 2nd possession in 73 minutes of football.
So yes, our forwardline was VERY MUCH compromised without Casboult, SOSOS and WITH Weitering.

McKay would've been hard pressed to add LESS than Weitering up forward.