Carlton Supporters Club

Car'n the Blues!

As Malthouse used to say in every post-loss press conference "we played a very very good side".

Port are an impressive team and club that will push for the flag this year. Having said that they had some key outs and were battered and bruised after their tough game last week. We had an opportunity to push them hard tonight and failed miserably. The stats sheet and scoreboard were kind to us but we were bad. Really bad.

If I can bring myself to watch the game again I'll comment on individual players but, as a team, our skill level, intensity and composure let us down again. Not sure where we're headed at the moment.

We can't seem to stay motivated for more than 2 games in a row. Been an issue all century.

Unless you want it badly enough it doesn't matter who is in on your list, you are always middle of the road.

Port play for premierships, Carlton play for paychecks. That's one of the big the differences.

Come to Carlton...we'll get rid of that pesty agro.                                                            
I fairdinkum love the intensity in Fogarty and Williams. Poor blokes. Come to us and see your estrogen levels sky rocket. Our culture has figuratively given all our players man boobs.

Our best performance this year was round 1. Been downhill since.

Bruise free brand, players pull out of contests and won't tackle or chase.
Dimma, Clarkson wouldn't tolerate it...

Our best performance this year was round 1. Been downhill since.

That’s what Carlton have done for the last 25 years, suck you into believing this year is going to be the year and then by round 3 you know it’s still not

Sucks to be 31 years old and a Carlton supporter 🙄

Nowhere close atm l'm sorry to say. A lot of work to be done.

Too depressing ... think I'll read it all in the morning.  Yet again, sounds like the same players need a kick in the ar$e.  Sounds like stocker needs a go and long overdue.

Massive reality check, we’re miles off

Too many vfl types to consistently compete against top 4 sides - when the heat is on Newnes, Kennedy et al

Jones’ decision making under pressure isn’t good enough and he keeps losing his feet. McGovern looks more comfortable in defence

We don’t spread well enough

Our structure behind the ball is schoolboy level

We don’t move the ball quick enough (we don’t kick it hard enough)

Our kicking accuracy is poor

We have very few players who can break the lines. I can only think of Saad, Walsh, maybe Docherty.

Hoping like hell that Williams isn’t a bust as a midfielder

Cripps needs to kick goals when he’s 30m out and his field kicking needs to improve

There’s more but that will do for now

The harsh reality facing us is that our rebuild has been a failure.

If all of the players on our list were available and we dropped the players from tonight's side who are not up to final 8 standard, we would have trouble  fielding a side.

Port Adelaide have recruited skilled ball players, just like the Hawthorn power sides of recent years.  What were our selectors thinking? 

With this current list we are destined to  be amongst the "also rans" for the forseeable future.

The harsh reality facing us is that our rebuild has been a failure.

If all of the players on our list were available and we dropped the players from tonight's side who are not up to final 8 standard, we would have trouble  fielding a side.

Port Adelaide have recruited skilled ball players, just like the Hawthorn power sides of recent years.  What were our selectors thinking? 

With this current list we are destined to  be amongst the "also rans" for the forseeable future.

Too depressing

When Cripps missed that sitter I knew the game was over.

Nowhere close atm l'm sorry to say. A lot of work to be done.

Still?

Was all over when the coach Said “ we might not get the result but...”

9.14 feck me! I was out so I only watched bits and pieces of the 1st and 2nd qtr on my phone. All I saw was us bust a boiler to get in I50 only to  kick a behind and they went I50 and kicked a goal. Nothings changed in that regard Id say.

Bruise free brand, players pull out of contests and won't tackle or chase.
Dimma, Clarkson wouldn't tolerate it...

what are you saying EB?

Another oh so familiar performance. Port took the foot off the throat in the last, the umpires decided to even up the stat sheet and paid us free kicks like they were going out of business and they still cruised in by 5 goals.
So many 'B' graders in this side. Not smart enough or good enough. Brisbane will give us a football lesson next week.

Bruise free brand, players pull out of contests and won't tackle or chase.
Dimma, Clarkson wouldn't tolerate it...

Clarkson next coach
Mcguire next President

Bruise free brand, players pull out of contests and won't tackle or chase.
Dimma, Clarkson wouldn't tolerate it...

Clarkson next coach
Mcguire next President

Clarkson next coach
Mcguire next President

Been down that path.

Bruise free brand, players pull out of contests and won't tackle or chase.
Dimma, Clarkson wouldn't tolerate it...

Wouldn't matter. If the players don't want it enough they'd only get frustrated. Malthouse wouldn't tolerate it either but did him no good. Can only come from the players themselves.

Silvagni's drafting and trading.... Just Wow! Any chance there could be one player who can kick?

6th year into the rebuild and we're where? It's embarassing that a club with so many first round picks hasn't improved one iota in 6 years. In fact it looks worse than when we first started. What Silvagni has done is akin to what Malthouse did when he cleaned out the entire forward line.

Then there's Teague and his love child untouchables like Murphy, SPS and Plowman. screw me... And people wonder why we're the joke we are... Soft and unskilled does not a player make, and we have a team full of them lead by our two captains and the irrepressible Marc Murphy...

When Cripps missed that sitter I knew the game was over.

That was the shot that would have put us in front.  Instead a minute later the port lead blew out to 12 and you could see the collective drop their bundle.

Won't someone tell cripps to use the simple short option by hand when its walsh running next to him and then let them deliver the pill rather than trying to bust open 3 tackles and kick 50 metres to a 2 on 1 contest?

Ffs.  Calls himself a captain.  He's trying to act like one.

One of my soccer coaches pulled us up at training and told us a simple truth.  There is no point pegging a 50 yard pass only to sell your teammate into trouble.  You'll only put your teammate over resulting in turnovers.  The simple game is better.  Hit your targets to their advantage and if they stuff up, they'll look crap but they'll stuff up less if you give them the easy pass more frequently and your teammates will look better which in turn makes you look a better player.  Save the heroics for defensive runs and leave the fancy stuff.

Cripps was the biggest issue in our team tonight.  He single handedly seemed to ruin a lot of our momentum.

what are you saying EB?

Newnes attempt to tackle Amon... Weak half arsed effort. Mcgovern had to go in the 2nd quarter, pulled out on a high ball yep McKay was also coming at the ball but that's why J. Brown was part of three premierships, they don't think they just go harder.
Port switched play several times and several Carlton players gave up and watched.
You know why Ports skills are good, zero pressure from our blokes...

Oh, and Patrick Cripps... This is the definition of someone that's read their own press and believes he's Superman.

Oh, and Patrick Cripps... This is the definition of someone that's read their own press and believes he's Superman.

Did we see this knob at any time over the last 2 weeks?

Cripps inability to chase is a major issue, once the contest is done he is a liability.
His opponents are racking up possies and hurting us.Curnow and Walsh can't cover his man and their own especially when they are quality like Wines, Gray etc.
Think Greenwood had 30 on him last week... Cripps gets his share but butchers too many.
Its the difference between Cripps and say Bontempelli who hurts team even if he isn't minding his man. Cripps either has to defend better or become more of a weapon with the ball.. IMHO.

Did we see this knob at any time over the last 2 weeks?

Oh dude. Your contributions are so full of wit and incisiveness. I look forward to reading your absolute butt laden crap as much as a hole in the head. Thanks for not letting me down.

If you think the last two weeks have been an enjoyable experience rather than cringe fests they actually were, you're more stupid than I originally thought. I imagine you sitting in your navy blue encrusted dungeon lauding the crap they served up the past two weeks and thinking "a premiership is around the corner". You're such a d!CK!

Former Fremantle star Michael Barlow told SEN: “Carlton is close to tossing in the towel, some of their efforts are borderline horrendous.”

Sign BigH up,  big bonus,    big bonus ............................. dose of reality! :o

Was at the game. The silence in the crowd about 5 minutes in said it all. We unfortunately as Carlton faithful are used to this now, we expect it. It's bloody awful. The resigned groans and moans from our supporters is just sad to see and be apart of. Feck off Murphy - Frodo Baggins had more balls. Feck off SPS -the Tin man had more heart. Feck off Mitch Mcfatten - thought Daisy robbed us blind, this bloke has pulled off the heist of the century. Unfortunately the list goes on.  To many passengers who are there for a pay check and nothing more. Time to get off instagram and get your hands dirty lads. Otherwise our next month will get ugly.

Port was always going to win this game. Media, betting agencies, fans etc. who thought otherwise just aren't accepting reality.

The 4 goal barrier against better teams is a hurdle we can't seem to overcome just right now. R1 25 points, R2 21 points, R5 28 points.

Execution and skill errors are the real killers. I accept one could argue that by the 2nd half the damage was done, but in that 2nd half we won the territory, more I50's, more scoring shots, more tackles. It's not like the boys threw in the towel. Throughout the 2nd and 3rd we had 75 chains and kicked 4.11, Port had around 72 and kicked 10.1 - that's all from Teague's presser. Honestly, I don't think it's as bad as all that. Fix up the connection and we will be around the mark.

I said pre game unless Cripps plays a blinder we can’t is be coming less and less of an occurrence these days.
The thing is the midfield is still way to shallow to compete against the better teams without Cripps playing a major part. Hold him and we are done.

Cripps is a very one dimensional footballer. An A grade Inside footballer but his flaws hurt us as on the outside, defensively and forward he is liability if we are being honest. I can’t believe I’m saying this but maybe trading him for the players we need needs to be seriously considered. Same goes for SPS he will have currency - move him on if we can muster a good trade.

We have no outside breakaway run from the contest except from poor Walsh. Williams has been disappointing to this point and not worth the contract he is on. I still have hope for him but not the start I wanted from a guy on a massive contract.
There are many other issues I know with the rebuild but the selections SOS made for the midfield apart from walsh which was a no brainer are all flops.
Kennedy won’t make it neither will Williamson. Murphy surely has to retire. Doc was awful last night and did things you would be disappointed if it was from a first gamer.

Have to make some big changes in the off-season. Ditch the 2 captains rubbish and give it to Weitering with Walsh as the vice.

Fogerty, Walsh, Cottrell and Weitering can hold their head up - struggling to find any others who can but.

Still a bottom 4-6 team.

Port was always going to win this game. Media, betting agencies, fans etc. who thought otherwise just aren't accepting reality.

The 4 goal barrier against better teams is a hurdle we can't seem to overcome just right now. R1 25 points, R2 21 points, R5 28 points.

Execution and skill errors are the real killers. I accept one could argue that by the 2nd half the damage was done, but in that 2nd half we won the territory, more I50's, more scoring shots, more tackles. It's not like the boys threw in the towel. Throughout the 2nd and 3rd we had 75 chains and kicked 4.11, Port had around 72 and kicked 10.1 - that's all from Teague's presser. Honestly, I don't think it's as bad as all that. Fix up the connection and we will be around the mark.

Pauly that's all well and good, but we have heard this over and over and over and over after every "honourable" loss. Haven't seen the game as I was out, not going to bother as 4.11 to 10.1 says it all. I did however see Cripps miss from what seemed like not much further out from the top of the goal square, this is why he will never make it as a mid/fwd, can't kick to save himself. I  read someone else post that he tried to be the hero again by busting tackles instead of give it off. And then we complain he is banged up, it seems to be self inflicted.
But that's all ok, we probably "played our way" so its all good. Hand out the participation awards Teaguey.

I'm not one for Facebook footy pages but I was fwded this:

Imagine being a Carlton supporter.
Yeah sure, life has been tough in the past supporting teams like St. Kilda, Melbourne and Richmond, but I don't think anything could top the turmoil of cheering on the Navy Blues every week.
They've sacked a coach, recruited with an A+ mark, gone through the draft, yet they're about as hard as an after grog bog on a Sunday morning after a night on the rums.
Saad couldn't compose himself if Mozart was his mentor, Betts is two years past retirement, Williams is softer than a box of kittens, and McGovern couldn't get near a mark even if he was part of the Funky Bunch.
I sincerely hope Cripps goes to West Coast.

Pauly that's all well and good, but we have heard this over and over and over and over after every "honourable" loss. Haven't seen the game as I was out, not going to bother as 4.11 to 10.1 says it all. I did however see Cripps miss from what seemed like not much further out from the top of the goal square, this is why he will never make it as a mid/fwd, can't kick to save himself. I  read someone else post that he tried to be the hero again by busting tackles instead of give it off. And then we complain he is banged up, it seems to be self inflicted.
But that's all ok, we probably "played our way" so its all good. Hand out the participation awards Teaguey.

I'm not one for Facebook footy pages but I was fwded this:

Imagine being a Carlton supporter.
Yeah sure, life has been tough in the past supporting teams like St. Kilda, Melbourne and Richmond, but I don't think anything could top the turmoil of cheering on the Navy Blues every week.
They've sacked a coach, recruited with an A+ mark, gone through the draft, yet they're about as hard as an after grog bog on a Sunday morning after a night on the rums.
Saad couldn't compose himself if Mozart was his mentor, Betts is two years past retirement, Williams is softer than a box of kittens, and McGovern couldn't get near a mark even if he was part of the Funky Bunch.
I sincerely hope Cripps goes to West Coast.

Leaving aside the somewhat hysterical overuse of metaphor and simile, that person isn't even a Blues supporter. It's like Kane Cornes trying to write something after failing English 101.

At any rate, I know we've been waiting a long while, and we're just going to have to wait some more.

Port was always going to win this game. Media, betting agencies, fans etc. who thought otherwise just aren't accepting reality.

The 4 goal barrier against better teams is a hurdle we can't seem to overcome just right now. R1 25 points, R2 21 points, R5 28 points.

Execution and skill errors are the real killers. I accept one could argue that by the 2nd half the damage was done, but in that 2nd half we won the territory, more I50's, more scoring shots, more tackles. It's not like the boys threw in the towel. Throughout the 2nd and 3rd we had 75 chains and kicked 4.11, Port had around 72 and kicked 10.1 - that's all from Teague's presser. Honestly, I don't think it's as bad as all that. Fix up the connection and we will be around the mark.

It is as bad as all that Paul and it’s not just execution and skill errors, it’s also a lack of desire

All of Setterfield, Murphy & McGovern are playing for the cheque. McGovern is so frustrating, has the tools but will not go when it’s his turn. SPS’ desire is also a week by week proposition, but he is being played out of position.

Newnes, Kennedy, Plowman, Casboult all very average players.

Jones decision making under pressure is woeful

Dow, Williamson haven’t developed (the latter has actually regressed). And then you have the perennially injured club of Curnow, Marchbank & Kemp

And last but not least, Cripps’ has gone backwards and refuses to spread and his kicking is now embarrassing.

That’s a big chunk of the list

I've been on these forums for 15 years, and I learned long ago that it's most unwise to be the positive guy after a loss. Tends to ruin the mood lol.

I saw a team that gave enough effort and had enough scoring shots to make it a real contest. I also saw a team that makes some terrible decisions and needs to be a lot cleaner with the ball.

Leaving aside the somewhat hysterical overuse of metaphor and simile, that person isn't even a Blues supporter. It's like Kane Cornes trying to write something after failing English 101.

At any rate, I know we've been waiting a long while, and we're just going to have to wait some more.

"but I don't think anything could top the turmoil of cheering on the Navy Blues every week" was the thing that describes my feelings most weeks in recent years.

RE the challenge of PA, I would say to you there is no bigger challenge than playing Geel at Geel. The difference between the side that played and beat Geel last year and PA last night was:
Saad
Williams
Fogarty
Kennedy
Cottrell

replacing

Simmo
Setters
SOS
Cunners
Martin
I'd argue that first three 2021 recruits make us a lot better on paper. We missed SOS and Martin last night for sure, but why the difference in attitude across the board?
Then I looked at some stats, these were telling
Car               PA
23   Scoring Shots   21
39.1%   Conversion   71.4%
37.00   Disposals Per Goal   26.67
57   Inside 50s   48
We seem to toil away and bust a boiler for every scoring opportunity only to butcher it in front of goal.
Where have I seen that before? Hmmmm.

........................................................
Then I looked at some stats, these were telling
Car               PA
23   Scoring Shots   21
39.1%   Conversion   71.4%
37.00   Disposals Per Goal   26.67
57   Inside 50s   48
We seem to toil away and bust a boiler for every scoring opportunity only to butcher it in front of goal.
Where have I seen that before? Hmmmm.

As I said earlier, it's like a stat sheet from a different game, but they don't lie. We have simply got to make better decisions and become cleaner with the ball. You can't compete with the better teams just with effort. But I'm not a fan of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We need to build on what is there, and there is without question something we can build on. But in some fashion, those next steps have to come.

As I said earlier, it's like a stat sheet from a different game, but they don't lie. We have simply got to make better decisions and become cleaner with the ball. You can't compete with the better teams just with effort. But I'm not a fan of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We need to build on what is there, and there is without question something we can build on. But in some fashion, those next steps have to come.

Agree. Are they training to rectify the deficiencies though? For example, we haven't had a problem getting it I50 for a few years now. We more often than not get more I50s than the opportunity, even when we get beaten badly. We have however butchered the ball in front of goal for years. So are they putting enough emphasis on goal kicking? And by that, I don't mean just repeated shots at goal, but using other techniques, methods, specialist coaches, deep analysis of set shots during games, heart rates etc. This is the single area that has cost us many games and yet it appears nothing has been done about it. These are where the next steps need to be taken.

As I said earlier, it's like a stat sheet from a different game, but they don't lie. We have simply got to make better decisions and become cleaner with the ball. You can't compete with the better teams just with effort. But I'm not a fan of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We need to build on what is there, and there is without question something we can build on. But in some fashion, those next steps have to come.

Agree that there is a foundation to build on

Unfortunately last night highlighted what happens when you combine a handful of players that don’t have the right ability with another bunch that don’t give the right effort.

When a team sees its leaders making mistakes and, in one or two cases giving away goals or missing easy shots, then confidence gets shattered and mistakes escalate. That's one factor, a big one imo, in last night's performance and it has no doubt set us back again. We will no doubt be working to try harder next week but I'm afraid the bagatelle is going to continue until this is resolved however which way. Teams know our weak spots and go straight for them.

Agree. Are they training to rectify the deficiencies though? For example, we haven't had a problem getting it I50 for a few years now. We more often than not get more I50s than the opportunity, even when we get beaten badly. We have however butchered the ball in front of goal for years. So are they putting enough emphasis on goal kicking? And by that, I don't mean just repeated shots at goal, but using other techniques, methods, specialist coaches, deep analysis of set shots during games, heart rates etc. This is the single area that has cost us many games and yet it appears nothing has been done about it. These are where the next steps need to be taken.

I'm not sure about goal kicking training, but Teague said they are training decision making and execution. He said in games both time and space are taken away from you, and they try and train with that intensity, but you need balance, because if they train constantly like a real match, the players will be cooked before the ball is bounced.

I've been on these forums for 15 years, and I learned long ago that it's most unwise to be the positive guy after a loss. Tends to ruin the mood lol.

I saw a team that gave enough effort and had enough scoring shots to make it a real contest. I also saw a team that makes some terrible decisions and needs to be a lot cleaner with the ball.

Scoreboard flattered us Paul, they had two players down and just dropped a gear in the last quarter.
re Comments on  Williams... Good player but not a true mid, can't get much over 20 possies a game. His possies are generally good but like Martin doesn't get enough ball like the real specialist mids.
We bought a classy half back but only a handy part time mid.

When a team sees its leaders making mistakes and, in one or two cases giving away goals or missing easy shots, then confidence gets shattered and mistakes escalate. That's one factor, a big one imo, in last night's performance and it has no doubt set us back again. We will no doubt be working to try harder next week but I'm afraid the bagatelle is going to continue until this is resolved however which way. Teams know our weak spots and go straight for them.

Our weak spot is telling us how good we are and what Stars we have and how we are a hard team.
Feed enough carp.....

Scoreboard flattered us Paul, they had two players down and just dropped a gear in the last quarter.
......................................

They are a top 4 team with plenty of quality and depth, and we are team trying to make finals with our own set of problems.

This particular game is a bit of a paradox. If you look at general play, then yes, I agree the scoreline did flatter us. If you look at shots on goal, marks I50 and other factors, I would say if anything, the scoreline flattered them. Our skills were terrible, and despite that, if we kicked as straight as them we were in with a real chance.

Goalkicking... You are either a good kick or a poor one, practising might fix a few players but not many. Cripps is terrible and that isn't going to change, Levi was on last night but  most times is iffy as we know and its been like that his whole career.
The Port kid Georgidias kicks like an arrow and knows forward craft in comparison.

Got to love people defending the honourable loss their blind support of the club no matter what happens on the field is fabulous. They say it was only 28 points and use stats to say we were in the game and that with only slight tinkering we will be competing for a flag. I used to be one! But week after week poor decision making in drafting, development, coaching tactics, disposal and general football smarts brings us back to reality and disappointment..  We will win a few matches here and there in crappy scrappy games and see the odd flash of what it takes but when it comes to competing against the better clubs we are put back to our real level of average lower ranked team who nobody fears playing.  Only two players have football smarts and composure Walsh and Weitering the rest seem to think the best way forward is to put it high in the air to gibbons or betts and let the opposition mark over them 🙄 we kicked scrappy points from set shots and long snaps because we don’t have the skill to figure out what the situation calls for as we move into the forward 50 or how to read leading patterns I used to think one day a switch would flick on and we would rise to our potential and be world beaters.  I don’t know how they can fix it quick but honourable losses are not doing it for me, no joy in following the Blues and when people ask me who I follow it will always be Carlton but not with the passion and pride I used to

Gibbons is another one that has smarts.

Knows how to find the footy.  Unfortunately his execution can be off.  This was never going to be a win.

Im watching a team trying its guts out to stay in games but just keeps making mistakes.

Zac Williams isn't right.  He probably shouldn't have played last night.  That was a mistake to play him.  Is ball use is excellent and we aren't seeing the best version of him while he's playing on one leg.

Newnes attempt to tackle Amon... Weak half arsed effort. Mcgovern had to go in the 2nd quarter, pulled out on a high ball yep McKay was also coming at the ball but that's why J. Brown was part of three premierships, they don't think they just go harder.
Port switched play several times and several Carlton players gave up and watched.
You know why Ports skills are good, zero pressure from our blokes...

I saw this incident differently.

McKay had the sit.  He either shepherds his opponent out for mcgovern to take the mark, or calls mcgovern to go.  McKay did neither and as a result they both cooked it.

At least thats a stuff up of communication and from what I could see McKay was the one who needed to make the call as mcgovern was looking back over his shoulder running with the flight of the ball and McKay was the one who could see it unfold.

Not good enough to blame mcgovern.  He can't have 360 degree vision whilst Harry is having a picnic.

My impression was that last nights effort was a very 'individual' one.
Not a lot of 'team' in that performance.
Not much system or structure.

That's a symptom of an 'unsettled' side that hasn't really had a lot of time of many players playing together.
Now every side gets injuries and seasons can get disrupted by them.
But a 'rebuild' is a different dynamic.
Because each season you get a turnover and influx of new players that need to gel.

If they did one of those 'sociogram type' surveys... (Not who you enjoy playing with but...How many games has player A played in the same side as player X,Y and Z ).... it would be all over the shop.
It's especially so in our forward half.

Port on the other hand played like a settled side, they just seemed to know where to put the ball to find a team-mate.
Not that they were great...they were pretty ordinary, and seemed to do just what they needed to do to get the job done.

Anyway we move on.
Stocker's earned a game.
McGovern seemed a lot more comfortable down back  so if he continues to get game time give him some extended time down there.

Scoreboard flattered us Paul, they had two players down and just dropped a gear in the last quarter.
re Comments on  Williams... Good player but not a true mid, can't get much over 20 possies a game. His possies are generally good but like Martin doesn't get enough ball like the real specialist mids.
We bought a classy half back but only a handy part time mid.

It was an 80 point loss.

If Cripps is staying, put out the presser.

Teague - outclassed again. Zero tactical nous.

Kennedy on a wing?

Our lack of 'team' is glaringly obvious. Where was the help for Pitto ffs?

Ball use/delivery appalling. Decision making non existent.

Port played in 2nd gear most of the night. We couldn't even drop the clutch.

Cripps trying to be the hero....

Murphy stank it up - one effort down the wing (right in front of us) he ran forward not even watching his team mate with ball nor the ball.

When he finally turned, the ball was 30m behind him.

I laughed.

So who at CFC will make something change?

2 out of 5 games this year (that's 40%) have seen totally unacceptable levels of effort (let alone skill) from too many of the 22.

I saw this incident differently.

McKay had the sit.  He either shepherds his opponent out for mcgovern to take the mark, or calls mcgovern to go.  McKay did neither and as a result they both cooked it.

At least thats a stuff up of communication and from what I could see McKay was the one who needed to make the call as mcgovern was looking back over his shoulder running with the flight of the ball and McKay was the one who could see it unfold.

Not good enough to blame mcgovern.  He can't have 360 degree vision whilst Harry is having a picnic.

Someone had to go, you often see two players from the same team collide with the ball the only object.

Goalkicking... You are either a good kick or a poor one, practising might fix a few players but not many. Cripps is terrible and that isn't going to change, Levi was on last night but  most times is iffy as we know and its been like that his whole career.
The Port kid Georgidias kicks like an arrow and knows forward craft in comparison.

And yet he (Cripps) kicked two good goals from near on 50 last week.

Don't agree with that. It's all in his head....

All that said, that wa a morale sapping miss.

But again, you could tell from the first bounce our energy levels were zapped.

(been saying that for 15 years!)

NO LEADERSHIP.

My impression was that last nights effort was a very 'individual' one.
Not a lot of 'team' in that performance.
Not much system or structure.

That's a symptom of an 'unsettled' side that hasn't really had a lot of time of many players playing together.
Now every side gets injuries and seasons can get disrupted by them.
But a 'rebuild' is a different dynamic.
Because each season you get a turnover and influx of new players that need to gel.

If they did one of those 'sociogram type' surveys... (Not who you enjoy playing with but...How many games has player A played in the same side as player X,Y and Z ).... it would be all over the shop.
It's especially so in our forward half.

Something else its a system of......following the captains lead.

IMO Cripps was the most selfish of all, most individual of all.
Teague needs to give him both barrels in the review.

"If you are running through the centre and have a good kicking teammate next to you.....give it to him! You do not finish off enough of those kicks and we get hurt on the rebound because of it.....and you can't/don't chase. So either learn to kick, or better yet, don't attempt it! Next time you burn a teammate by not giving a handball, you are dropped!"

If he doesn't like it, start working on a trade back to WA now.

As a captain of the club, its simply not good enough, week in week out. Multiple times a game.

And yet he (Cripps) kicked two good goals from near on 50 last week.

Don't agree with that. It's all in his head....

All that said, that wa a morale sapping miss.

But again, you could tell from the first bounce our energy levels were zapped.

(been saying that for 15 years!)

Cripps is like Levi, will have the odd night out... Robbie Gray kicks straight every week like Jack Reiwoldt and it looks like the kid from Port is the same. Think Dunstall commented on his perfect kicking action.
Id back Gray and Georgiades every day of the week vs Levi and Cripps..

They are a top 4 team with plenty of quality and depth, and we are team trying to make finals with our own set of problems.

This particular game is a bit of a paradox. If you look at general play, then yes, I agree the scoreline did flatter us. If you look at shots on goal, marks I50 and other factors, I would say if anything, the scoreline flattered them. Our skills were terrible, and despite that, if we kicked as straight as them we were in with a real chance.

Richmond often lose clearance stats, I50's, etc, good carlton teams would dominate a quarter usually the 3rd and win games but other teams would have more play and waste the ball.

Cripps is like Levi, will have the odd night out... Robbie Gray kicks straight every week like Jack Reiwoldt and it looks like the kid from Port is the same. Think Dunstall commented on his perfect kicking action.
Id back Gray and Georgiades every day of the week vs Levi and Cripps..

That wasn't the discussion EB. The who you'd back answer no one disputes.

I'm simply suggesting last night, Cripps' head, like most of his team mates, was not where it should be....why? No idea.

But it's like they'e checked out before the game even starts.

One of my non CFC supporting mates sitting with me suggested the lads had rolled a fwe reefers before the game....they were that 'off'.

You know things aren’t going well when you hope the medical sub will be activated in order to inject a bit of energy into the team (even though the medical sub was Dow) ...

2 out of 5 putrid efforts,...two wins asgainst teams who are so so and had significant injuries.

Is anyone down at Princes Park going to stand up and say ENOUGH?

Or will we still be mediocre lightweights in another 20 years.

My 8yo simply doesn't believe Carlton was ever a good team (and i do have the 1995 team up on the wall).

That is bloody sad.

First thing I would do is sack most, if not all, of the line/assistant coaches ala Richmond. This week.

After so many years of rebuilding, we should expect to have a team that plays at a level similar to Port Adelaide.

That's what we have been led to expect from the Carlton hierarchy.

And yet we are still talking in terms of if  we improve our kicking skills  or put in harder then we will win.  The fact is we have recruited players with mediocre kicking skills at best and they are not going to improve.

Teague deserves criticism but how can you put a plan in place with players incapable of carrying it out.

Our forward line entry, and the forward line itself, were a shambles.  We had players getting in the way of one another, and this is happening every week.

As has been said, too many players of VFL standard and incapable of improvement.

After so many years of rebuilding, we should expect to have a team that plays at a level similar to Port Adelaide.

That's what we have been led to expect from the Carlton hierarchy.

And yet we are still talking in terms of if  we improve our kicking skills  or put in harder then we will win.  The fact is we have recruited players with mediocre kicking skills at best and they are not going to improve.

Teague deserves criticism but how can you put a plan in place with players incapable of carrying it out.

Our forward line entry, and the forward line itself, were a shambles.  We had players getting in the way of one another, and this is happening every week.

As has been said, too many players of VFL standard and incapable of improvement.

Cripps is a so so kick - tell him to handball it off every bloody time. Simple.

I still think it's our system/structures or lack thereof that is beating us.

The players look like they are confused...

If they don't know or understand their role, something is very amiss.

They're not 1st or 2nd year players, we're talking 4th, 5th, even more years in the system types.

Cripps is like Levi, will have the odd night out... Robbie Gray kicks straight every week like Jack Reiwoldt and it looks like the kid from Port is the same. Think Dunstall commented on his perfect kicking action.
Id back Gray and Georgiades every day of the week vs Levi and Cripps..

Gray has been a arrow for years, pure class infront of goal. Georgiades has started of his career well and will be Jack Reiwoldt type in front of goal in the years to come. Levi and Cripps aren't even on the same planet with respect to goal kicking. Ive been saying it for weeks, Cripps needs to stay in his lane and do what he does best, clearances. Get it, give it nothing more. Levi is just a temporary back up for Pitto, once and if De Koning gets fit, Levi is goneski.

That wasn't the discussion EB. The who you'd back answer no one disputes.

I'm simply suggesting last night, Cripps' head, like most of his team mates, was not where it should be....why? No idea.

But it's like they'e checked out before the game even starts.

One of my non CFC supporting mates sitting with me suggested the lads had rolled a fwe reefers before the game....they were that 'off'.

Kane Cornes usually talks carp but his thoughts on Cripps on afl.com are accurate.
Needs to give the ball off more, stop trying to be a hero and lead by doing what he is good at and that's helping get the ball to others who can win the game.

Cripps is a so so kick - tell him to handball it off every bloody time. Simple.

I still think it's our system/structures or lack thereof that is beating us.

The players look like they are confused...

If they don't know or understand their role, something is very amiss.

They're not 1st or 2nd year players, we're talking 4th, 5th, even more years in the system types.

I thought everyone was raving about Teague's very simple, easy to follow game plan ? Especially after the supposed Byzantine complexity of Bolton.

Funny how The TT's language has changed from winning and being known for pressure to growth and learning... again. And referring to last year's efforts to boost the side's credibility.

Same old, same old re crappis dackis when under pressure. What does crappis dackis look like? Kick and hope, poor skills under real or perceived pressure, individualism.

We just do not look like a 'team'. We look like a bunch of individuals, often times, doing their own thing.

Crippa seems to play with a Saviour Complex! Wants to continually do the amazing or heroic things. Stop it!! Where are the coaches telling him that his strengths are winning the aggot, not disposal - especially by foot. It'd be a good start for the skipper to be a team player, play to his strengths... get the aggot then quickly give it to someone in a better position - no more heroics.

There's plenty to be positive about re how we win the ball (endeavour/intent), but then the trouble starts (execution/system) - when we have to think what to do with it. Maybe we're thinking too much, maybe we're confused, any way you look at it we do not appear to have footy smarts. Plenty of footy dumbs. I reckon our fans groan more often than just about any other group of supporters whilst watching their chargers in action.

After most of our games you look at the stats and we compare very favourably with our opponents - so how do we blow so many opportunities so gloriously? Our ability to land a kick into the hands of an opponent is nearing legendary status.

And then there's playing blokes out of position and gifting non-performers games (though I think we're waking up to that one).

I thought everyone was raving about Teague's very simple, easy to follow game plan ? Especially after the supposed byzantine complexity of Bolton.

Teague is struggling, needs the win against Brisbane next week or its going to get uncomfortable in the media for him..

Funny how The TT's language has changed from winning and being known for pressure to growth and learning... again. And referring to last year's efforts to boost the side's credibility.

Same old, same old re crappis dackis when under pressure. What does crappis dackis look like? Kick and hope, poor skills under real or perceived pressure, individualism.

We just do not look like a 'team'. We look like a bunch of individuals, often times, doing their own thing.

Crippa seems to play with a Saviour Complex! Wants to continually do the amazing or heroic things. Stop it!! Where are the coaches telling him that his strengths are winning the aggot, not disposal - especially by foot. It'd be a good start for the skipper to be a team player, play to his strengths... get the aggot then quickly give it to someone in a better position - no more heroics.

There's plenty to be positive about re how we win the ball (endeavour/intent), but then the trouble starts (execution/system) - when we have to think what to do with it. Maybe we're thinking too much, maybe we're confused, any way you look at it we do not appear to have footy smarts. Plenty of footy dumbs. I reckon our fans groan more often than just about any other group of supporters whilst watching their chargers in action.

After most of our games you look at the stats and we compare very favourably with our opponents - so how do we blow so many opportunities so gloriously? Our ability to land a kick into the hands of an opponent is nearing legendary status.

And then there's playing blokes out of position and gifting non-performers games (though I think we're waking up to that one).

I think Lods said the same thing about the effort being individualistic. That to me may be due to players being told to  perform or look elsewhere? FB77 reckons we looked off from the first bounce, that is totally unacceptable. Far too many signs of same old same old for my liking. The CFC roller coaster continues.

I thought everyone was raving about Teague's very simple, easy to follow game plan ? Especially after the supposed Byzantine complexity of Bolton.

The 45% winning record is far better than 10% the previous 40 games. You were partially right when talking bad clubs but that was the coach. We had to change the coach to start winning and being competitive again. Can't accept the uncompetitive rubbish we chucked up under Bolton. What we had then was a bad coach in a club with a poor culture that doesn't have great motivation to succeed. Now comes the hard part with the culture. Without the real "want" you just don't have the success you should. Those that are motivated play for premierships, in our case we play for the paycheck. That's tough for a coach to turn around. Has to be a whole club thing.

One thing Chris Judd said recently when he come to Carlton. He said at West Coast players were forever talking about a path to a flag, at Carlton they were forever talking about their next contract.

Teague is struggling, needs the win against Brisbane next week or its going to get uncomfortable in the media for him..

Brisbane are one step down from Port IMO. That will be another honourable loss. They are too good for us at the moment.

The media make too much bad noise and are incredibly counterproductive. A coach in trouble or a sacked coach means the hacks have months of story telling without even having to work for it. The appeal is obvious. Endless discussions about the pressure the coach is under, the big preamble when they start using the S word, then endless headlines when the coach actually gets the ar$e, then the repercussions, then more discussions about who the replacement will be, then discussions about who actually gets appointed, then a dissection of the decision, and on it goes. Just a bunch of vultures picking over a carcass which they were instrumental in killing. Disgrace.

Brisbane are one step down from Port IMO. That will be another honourable loss. They are too good for us at the moment.

The media make too much bad noise and are incredibly counterproductive. A coach in trouble or a sacked coach means the hacks have months of story telling without even having to work for it. The appeal is obvious. Endless discussions about the pressure the coach is under, the big preamble when they start using the S word, then endless headlines when the coach actually gets the ar$e, then the repercussions, then more discussions about who the replacement will be, then discussions about who actually gets appointed, then a dissection of the decision, and on it goes. Just a bunch of vultures picking over a carcass which they were instrumental in killing. Disgrace.

Agree Pauly, I care little for what the media say or think, to call them parasites is being kind. Internally however is another matter, Teague will be under pressure without wins no matter who the opposition is.

I said pre game unless Cripps plays a blinder we can’t is be coming less and less of an occurrence these days.
The thing is the midfield is still way to shallow to compete against the better teams without Cripps playing a major part. Hold him and we are done.

Cripps is a very one dimensional footballer. An A grade Inside footballer but his flaws hurt us as on the outside, defensively and forward he is liability if we are being honest. I can’t believe I’m saying this but maybe trading him for the players we need needs to be seriously considered. Same goes for SPS he will have currency - move him on if we can muster a good trade.

We have no outside breakaway run from the contest except from poor Walsh. Williams has been disappointing to this point and not worth the contract he is on. I still have hope for him but not the start I wanted from a guy on a massive contract.
There are many other issues I know with the rebuild but the selections SOS made for the midfield apart from walsh which was a no brainer are all flops.
Kennedy won’t make it neither will Williamson. Murphy surely has to retire. Doc was awful last night and did things you would be disappointed if it was from a first gamer.

Have to make some big changes in the off-season. Ditch the 2 captains rubbish and give it to Weitering with Walsh as the vice.

Fogerty, Walsh, Cottrell and Weitering can hold their head up - struggling to find any others who can but.

Still a bottom 4-6 team.

What an indictment on our captains, but you're right.  Neither are any good.  Fine post and agree with all of it

The harsh reality facing us is that our rebuild has been a failure.

If all of the players on our list were available and we dropped the players from tonight's side who are not up to final 8 standard, we would have trouble  fielding a side.

Port Adelaide have recruited skilled ball players, just like the Hawthorn power sides of recent years.  What were our selectors thinking? 

With this current list we are destined to  be amongst the "also rans" for the foreseeable future.

That's an oversimplification.

We do have good ball users - just used out of position - or not at all - or injured.

SPS is an excellent ball user/decision maker. Need to be in the guts.

Williams looks injured. Martin is injured. Saad looks injured too.

Stocker must come in next week - he's probably the only player on our list who's elite off both feet.

The Guv is an excellent ball user but appears too embarrassed to be part of our team to want to bother....

Murphy's a good ball user - for mine, he's either an on baller or not in the 22.

Betts is an exceptional ball user - watch his 3rd quarter last night.

People who suggest he's cooked? Laughable.

He's (presently) less cooked than Cripps, Williams (both injured), Murphy, Doc, Curnow and Newnes.

That's an oversimplification.

We do have good ball users - just used out of position - or not at all - or injured.

SPS is an excellent ball user/decision maker. Need to be in the guts.

Williams looks injured. Martin is injured. Saad looks injured too.

Stocker must come in next week - he's probably the only player on our list who's elite off both feet.

The Guv is an excellent ball user but appears too embarrassed to be part of our team to want to bother....

Murphy's a good ball user - for mine, he's either an on baller or not in the 22.

Betts is an exceptional ball user - watch his 3rd quarter last night.

People who suggest he's cooked? Laughable.

He's (presently) less cooked than Cripps, Williams (both injured), Murphy, Doc, Curnow and Newnes.

I don't see it as an oversimplification.  A good ball user is a good ball user no matter what position they are played.

Our turnovers by foot game after game  are an embarrassment.



I see Murphy as a good ball user to a limited degree - he lacks penetration and struggles to make a 40 metre kick.

Guv wouldn't be considered by a top side yet we keep selecting him because of lack of depth.

Yes, the Betts "Too old" stuff is garbage.  He KNOWS his position and how to play it and shirks nothing.

Something else its a system of......following the captains lead.

IMO Cripps was the most selfish of all, most individual of all.
Teague needs to give him both barrels in the review.

"If you are running through the centre and have a good kicking teammate next to you.....give it to him! You do not finish off enough of those kicks and we get hurt on the rebound because of it.....and you can't/don't chase. So either learn to kick, or better yet, don't attempt it! Next time you burn a teammate by not giving a handball, you are dropped!"

If he doesn't like it, start working on a trade back to WA now.

As a captain of the club, its simply not good enough, week in week out. Multiple times a game.

Harsh, but absolutely true.

When leaders FU it really deflates and demotivates... as the opposite is also true, when leaders do something clever/team oriented/inspirational - great smother, tackle, bring team mate into play... it lifts. Look how often Pendlebury brings team mates into the game, no heroics, adherence to system/game plan - definitely no individualism.

I don't see it as an oversimplification.  A good ball user is a good ball user no matter what position they are played.

Our turnovers by foot game after game  are an embarrassment.



I see Murphy as a good ball user to a limited degree - he lacks penetration and struggles to make a 40 metre kick.

Guv wouldn't be considered by a top side yet we keep selecting him because of lack of depth.

McGovern needs to work harder. He would be considered on ability for any side, hence was a reasonable important part of a Grand Final side. Issue is right now, like others wouldn't be considered in others sides based on workmate, or a lack thereof.

We have to work out why we "Carltonise" good players that come to the club.

Mcgovern is expected to be a key player with us but was just the 4th forward at the Crows.
He is a finisher/accessory player who needs delivery and a weak opponent, not the likes of Alir who ran off him all the time in the first half. Just the wrong player for us and would be better suited at West Coast when Allen takes JKs spot.

Mcgovern is expected to be a key player with us but was just the 4th forward at the Crows.
He is a finisher/accessory player who needs delivery and a weak opponent, not the likes of Alir who ran off him all the time in the first half. Just the wrong player for us and would be better suited at West Coast when Allen takes JKs spot.

He supposed to be a 3rd forward here too to play a similar role.

Agree Pauly, I care little for what the media say or think, to call them parasites is being kind. Internally however is another matter, Teague will be under pressure without wins no matter who the opposition is.

My ladder prediction for this season was 9th-11th, and I have seen little that would change my mind. As long as the effort is there and we can get some semblance of our best 22 on the park, the wins will come IMO.

He supposed to be a 3rd forward here too to play a similar role.

I guess I would ask the question why we would pay big dollars for a 3rd tall forward.
Its created high match winning expectations for a player who will really only feature when the team plays well. I have been on his case but its very hard for a player of his type to perform with such a poor kicking team.
He had silver service at the Crows but has to make his own lunch with us..

I don't think our forward line functioned very well (obviously) - seriously missed Jack. McGovern is a poor replacement at this stage.

But their back line was able to put our forwards under pressure. Ours was not. Our back line is a joke.

Teague deserves quite a lot of criticism- as does the selection committee. Too many moves just haven't worked. Picking Williamson was a disaster. Samo at half back just has not worked. Cunningham sitting in the 2s is just ridiculous. We need Newman back desperately and we need to play Jack Martin at half back or Jack Silvagni or Cunningham or Stocker. The guys we've got are not up to it... And it is frustratingly obvious yet Teague keeps fronting up with the same sh1ttruck defence getting the same sh1tty result every time we get under scoreboard pressure. 

(https://i.ibb.co/L8XpSFm/willy-wonka.jpg)

Cripps and Doc simple stuffups really hurt and deflating. Umps were crucifying us early and evened it up later when it didn't matter. Port are better than us. We make too many stupid decisions and cock up gold plated opportunities.

Having said all that I actually think things aren't quite as bad as they seem. We had more clearances, inside 50s, etc. than a team that is pretty hard at it. There is definitely something to work with. We just can't get anywhere near a decent run with injuries. How much fun would it be to see how good we could be with Charlie, Jack, TDK, Marchbank, Martin, Newman, Fisher, Kemp, etc. in the team?

Seem like 2 or 3 years of constantly dealing with a quarter to a third of our best team out injured every week.

Port by comparison probably had 2 of their best 22 missing. What a dream position to be in!

I don't think our forward line functioned very well (obviously) - seriously missed Jack. McGovern is a poor replacement at this stage.

But their back line was able to put our forwards under pressure. Ours was not. Our back line is a joke.

Teague deserves quite a lot of criticism- as does the selection committee. Too many moves just haven't worked. Picking Williamson was a disaster. Samo at half back just has not worked. Cunningham sitting in the 2s is just ridiculous. We need Newman back desperately and we need to play Jack Martin at half back or Jack Silvagni or Cunningham or Stocker. The guys we've got are not up to it... And it is frustratingly obvious yet Teague keeps fronting up with the same sh1ttruck defence getting the same sh1tty result every time we get under scoreboard pressure. 

JSOS or no JSOS when our midfield goes missing - or butchers the ball, any defence is going to buckle under extreme pressure.

The midfield was again in gaga land defensively last night. The abject lack of energy in the group was extraordinary. Noting likely Crippa injured and Williams too (or unfit).

Even Sam W. looked jaded.

tackle count?

Cottrell, Jones, Plow, Willo - bagels ffs!

Doc, Kennedy - 1

Levi, Guv, Gibbo, Murph, SPS - 2

Eddie, Crippa, H, Newnes, Pitto - 3

16 of our 22 - 3 or less tackles in 120 minutes of footy.

9 tackles inside 50, they had 15.

Having said all that I actually think things aren't quite as bad as they seem. We had more clearances, inside 50s, etc. than a team that is pretty hard at it. There is definitely something to work with. We just can't get anywhere near a decent run with injuries. How much fun would it be to see how good we could be with Charlie, Jack, TDK, Marchbank, Martin, Newman, Fisher, Kemp, etc. in the team?

Seem like 2 or 3 years of constantly dealing with a quarter to a third of our best team out injured every week.

No question. Even half of that list.

It doesn't however excuse the lack of intent, hunger and poor decision making shown by so many last night.

It's a privilege to play professional AFL footy, let alone to don the famous Old Dark Navy Blue.

It's really quite simple if one had to summarise our current dilemma....

Not enough of the blokes who run out there give a f.....

I don't think our forward line functioned very well (obviously) - seriously missed Jack. McGovern is a poor replacement at this stage.

But their back line was able to put our forwards under pressure. Ours was not. Our back line is a joke.

Teague deserves quite a lot of criticism- as does the selection committee. Too many moves just haven't worked. Picking Williamson was a disaster. Samo at half back just has not worked. Cunningham sitting in the 2s is just ridiculous. We need Newman back desperately and we need to play Jack Martin at half back or Jack Silvagni or Cunningham or Stocker. The guys we've got are not up to it... And it is frustratingly obvious yet Teague keeps fronting up with the same sh1ttruck defence getting the same sh1tty result every time we get under scoreboard pressure.

Doesn't matter who we pick, unless there is a real "want", it'll be like shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic.

I've half given up for now. We'll see some great performances, then when we are pumped the most we'll see disappointment. We might even make the 8 (may well not either) but that's the very best we'll do for years until the culture improves, attitudes change and we turn up motivated to play for the jumper win in, week out. Who we put out on the park will mean nothing until then.

SPP, Butters, Duursma and Bonner would be in their best 22 but are not as vital as the likes of Charlie Curnow , Martin and TDK for us.
Think Newman has been a loss, bit more steady and reliable than Williamson who is making the easy look difficult.
I have probably given Marchbank away and we really need another KP Forward on the list to cover for Charlie...
Losing McDonald has also been really unlucky, we just cant get our best 22 on the park and always lose the players who we have poor or no backup for...our luck has to turn soon.

We play footy like we have a safe workplace policy and the opposition know it, even their kids playing their second game beat us up knowing nobody fights back!

Another big question I have, why don't we shepherd for team-mates? Other than one decent one from Pittonet in the centre, I can't recall any effective shepherds at all! We are too easy to play against, opponents run around freely against us.

We play footy like we have a safe workplace policy and the opposition know it, even their kids playing their second game beat us up knowing nobody fights back!

Another big question I have, why don't we shepherd for team-mates? Other than one decent one from Pittonet in the centre, I can't recall any effective shepherds at all! We are too easy to play against, opponents run around freely against us.

Bit easier to be a kid with Port, never seen Bergman before but he was impressive, good size and kicks the ball well.
Agree on the Shepherds, blocks etc, apart from Ed Curnow we dont have many who consistently do that stuff week in week out.

Bit easier to be a kid with Port, never seen Bergman before but he was impressive, good size and kicks the ball well.
Agree on the Shepherds, blocks etc, apart from Ed Curnow we dont have many who consistently do that stuff week in week out.

The problem is Ed, and also Jones, undo their otherwise good work with 3rd rate disposals. Ed was just bombing the ball forward at every opportunity last night not even a glance at a target, Jones slammed the footy onto his boot multiples times directly to an opponents 20m or 30m forward of where he'd intercepted.

I realise they weren't alone last night, but they are recidivists.

I realise what Jones does defensively with his marking is elite, but it only brakes the opposition momentum, he contributes nothing to our own momentum, in fact he can destroy our own momentum with a bad kick. Just like Cripps, just like Doc, and when those older heads and leaders do it then it becomes contagious!

As much as AFL coaches want defence first, you also have to score to win, and we are our own worst enemy in that regard. Opposition aren't good against us, they don't have to be, they just have to be patient and we will give it back 10 out of 10!

On a slightly more philosophical note, I particularly feel for those supporters under about 35 years of age. You were encouraged by the 90s then subjected to abject failure, bar a couple of blips. By the time I was 35 I'd seen us win 7 premierships and can rest on those memories... and have needed to in the past 20 years.

Sorry to say it, but this modern CFC looks very little like the one of only 2 decades ago. Yes, times change, but attitude, desperation, expectation of excellence, mongrel, persistence, proper coaching and so on... do not change with time. If this modern CFC was a colour, it'd be beige. Perhaps that should be our new moniker... the Mighty Beiges? I've felt my interest wane this year and simply not looked forward to the w/e. Once our move (moving back closer to Melb) is complete I do look forward to going to Magoo matches, relaxed atmosphere, River Rat delivering well timed witticisms and of course, hot pies.

It's almost as if the heart of the CFC was removed in 2002 and we've been playing on without it ever since.

However, I will commend our off-field efforts. To erase debt, get Membership over 80,000 is Herculean - sincere congrats to all concerned. Our marketing / Pr / media dept is 2nd to none, they do an excellent job - had me salivating for the start of this year, but, really, it only took two games to see nothing had changed re on-field.

My ladder prediction for this season was 9th-11th, and I have seen little that would change my mind. As long as the effort is there and we can get some semblance of our best 22 on the park, the wins will come IMO.

I don't have us making the 8 and we will be similar to last year.

On a slightly more philosophical note, I particularly feel for those supporters under about 35 years of age. You were encouraged by the 90s then subjected to abject failure, bar a couple of blips. By the time I was 35 I'd seen us win 7 premierships and can rest on those memories... and have needed to in the past 20 years.

Sorry to say it, but this modern CFC looks very little like the one of only 2 decades ago. Yes, times change, but attitude, desperation, expectation of excellence, mongrel, persistence, proper coaching and so on... do not change with time. If this modern CFC was a colour, it'd be beige. Perhaps that should be our new moniker... the Mighty Beiges? I've felt my interest wane this year and simply not looked forward to the w/e. Once our move (moving back closer to Melb) is complete I do look forward to going to Magoo matches, relaxed atmosphere, River Rat delivering well timed witticisms and of course, hot pies.

It's almost as if the heart of the CFC was removed in 2002 and we've been playing on without it ever since.

However, I will commend our off-field efforts. To erase debt, get Membership over 80,000 is Herculean - sincere congrats to all concerned. Our marketing / Pr / media dept is 2nd to none, they do an excellent job - had me salivating for the start of this year, but, really, it only took two games to see nothing had changed re on-field.

My son is 18 and has been a member ever since he was 2 weeks old but last night he said, "Dad, I have given up and I've transferred to F1 permanently."
He now has no interest in footy and doesn't want to be a member anymore.
As his old man I feel gutted but don't blame him, ever since he can remember we have been a basket case.

Does the Club ever read our comments on here? Do they realise and understand the effect of their heartless performances have?
Reading the comment on here the common theme is lack of heart, desire, mongrel and playing for the pay cheque.

Watching footage of the 80's and 90's all Carlton players had two feet to choose from to kick with and ALL played and put their head over the ball.
Watching our players run around now it's like watching U18's play, flashes of brilliance but sooo many unforced errors and zero game plan.

I don't have us making the 8 and we will be similar to last year.

Agree apart from will North and GC it’s hard to be confident we are ‘clearly’ better then the next group of teams like freo pies saints hawks etc.

Miles off where we should be and wouldn’t be surprised if we don’t improve on last years position as there is vast improvements in teams I thought we would jump in Sydney Melb Adelaide dogs etc.

On a slightly more philosophical note, I particularly feel for those supporters under about 35 years of age. You were encouraged by the 90s then subjected to abject failure, bar a couple of blips. By the time I was 35 I'd seen us win 7 premierships and can rest on those memories... and have needed to in the past 20 years.

Sorry to say it, but this modern CFC looks very little like the one of only 2 decades ago. Yes, times change, but attitude, desperation, expectation of excellence, mongrel, persistence, proper coaching and so on... do not change with time. If this modern CFC was a colour, it'd be beige. Perhaps that should be our new moniker... the Mighty Beiges? I've felt my interest wane this year and simply not looked forward to the w/e. Once our move (moving back closer to Melb) is complete I do look forward to going to Magoo matches, relaxed atmosphere, River Rat delivering well timed witticisms and of course, hot pies.

It's almost as if the heart of the CFC was removed in 2002 and we've been playing on without it ever since.

However, I will commend our off-field efforts. To erase debt, get Membership over 80,000 is Herculean - sincere congrats to all concerned. Our marketing / Pr / media dept is 2nd to none, they do an excellent job - had me salivating for the start of this year, but, really, it only took two games to see nothing had changed re on-field.

Certainly right with all that.

I saw 8 flags by the time I was 37, so i've seen my share of success. Saw us go from crap in 1964 to when Barassi and George Harris came the next year and rebuilt the club. Younger ones though have seen nothing but 5hit.

Agree apart from will North and GC it’s hard to be confident we are ‘clearly’ better then the next group of teams like freo pies saints hawks etc.

Miles off where we should be and wouldn’t be surprised if we don’t improve on last years position as there is vast improvements in teams I thought we would jump in Sydney Melb Adelaide dogs etc.

We win some of them, including big ones, lose others, including 5hit ones, depending how we turn up on the day. Could win 8 or 9, could win 12. We have the poor attitude to win the former amount and the ability to win the later. Who knows with Carlton how that will turn out. Like last year, lose to Melbourne with poor skills, poor attitude, next week beat Geelong at Geelong with a good attitude and sublime skills for 3 qtrs. That's what we will see again. We can beat anyone, we can lose to anyone. Too often it's the latter.

Always have to find some positives, Levi made further progress this week, and when Levi plays well it makes Pittonet lift as well.

I thought McGovern wasn't bad from very limited and poor quality opportunities. A couple of times McGovern had done over his opponent only to have BigH fork it up by bringing his defender over the top, ................ again!

Weitering confirmed he is the man!

If fans want to know why I'm on the back of Jones, go the stat site and look at the meters gained figures, it's even worse for SPS.

https://www.afl.com.au/matches/3018#player-stats

If he is going to lay the intercept role, he needs to play like Dangerflog, and just boot the pill long and high 65m forward. High and long because he can't hit a barn and we need time for our forwards and mids to get to the drop of the pill.

I think it is a huge tactical mistake kicking the ball low and fast forward, we are too slow so we are second to the pill. Watch the replay, you see heaps of our guys kicking the ball around the corner low and fast, they should be hitting it 50m in the air and giving Cripps, Ed, Kennedy, Levi and Pittonet, etc., etc., at least some time chance to get to the drop of the ball.

I watched the game with some others, and someone said to be did you see what Dixon did to Doc, Dixon got all pointy(Knees and elbows) and smashed Doc who'd dropped in front of the marking contest. They asked is he allowed to do that and not touch the footy? My reply was we shouldn't be shocked at that, we should be shocked that we don't reciprocate!

On a slightly more philosophical note, I particularly feel for those supporters under about 35 years of age. You were encouraged by the 90s then subjected to abject failure, bar a couple of blips. By the time I was 35 I'd seen us win 7 premierships and can rest on those memories... and have needed to in the past 20 years. ]Hmm. I'm of the same vintage. And yes for those supporters that have not seen much success I can feel for, however I'm getting older and the stress heartache and general thinking this is the year we will see some improvement is going to blow my mind probably sooner than later.

Sorry to say it, but this modern CFC looks very little like the one of only 2 decades ago. Yes, times change, but attitude, desperation, expectation of excellence, mongrel, persistence, proper coaching and so on... do not change with time. If this modern CFC was a colour, it'd be beige. Perhaps that should be our new moniker... the Mighty Beiges? I've felt my interest wane this year and simply not looked forward to the w/e. Once our move (moving back closer to Melb) is complete I do look forward to going to Magoo matches, relaxed atmosphere, River Rat delivering well timed witticisms and of course, hot pies. More like the brown kaka.

It's almost as if the heart of the CFC was removed in 2002 and we've been playing on without it ever since.

However, I will commend our off-field efforts. To erase debt, get Membership over 80,000 is Herculean - sincere congrats to all concerned. Our marketing / Pr / media dept is 2nd to none, they do an excellent job - had me salivating for the start of this year, but, really, it only took two games to see nothing had changed re on-field. Here Here thank god.

It was another disappointing effort. Do we practice kicking the ball? We miss targets, we miss shots on goal, our kicks lack penetration and distance, we take the wrong option and we don't kick to the advantage of our team mates. The teaming and skills of the Port players far exceeded those of our own players. Pittonet knocks the ball over the back, Gibbons runs onto the ball and into an empty F50, but what is the plan. Does he kick it to Harry, does he go all the way or does someone run into the F50 and takes the ball short. He kicks to the top of the square, 20 meters from Harry who is now behind two Port players and the ball then sweeps down the other end. There is no coherence in the Carlton play. Every play seems to be a discrete action where the ball carrier makes a decision and if the ball gets to the next Carlton player, that player then makes a decision that may or may not have any relevance to the previous decision. We don't get a consistent chain of play. Everything is reactive whether we have the ball or not. Saad is a perfect example of this. We get it to him, but what is the next play. Do the players down the ground know what he is going to do, are team mates running beside him to draw fire and give him options. What is the plan?
In Teague's press conference he referred to players not executing under pressure. I think he is wrong. I think the problem is not doing the simple things well. Missing goals from 25 meters dead in front. It doesn't matter if it is Harry, Cripps or Casboult, supporters do not have the confidence in the capability of the players to kick the easy goal. Cripps kicks that goal in the second quarter and it is a different game. We stop butchering the ball and it is a different game.
People seem to be ranting about defence but I think it is our forwards which are the problem. We do not kick enough goals. Murphy, Casboult, Gibbons, Silvagni, Foggerty, Cuninngham, Kennedy have never kicked five goals in a match for Carlton, it has also been a long time since Betts has done it and Harry has done it once. Having Charlie in the side would make a difference. When the forwards are kicking goals, the backline functions a lot better because your opponents have to defend and cannot be as free wheeling in their attacks.
Fix our goal kicking, fix our disposal and develop more team cohesion and things will improve. Also instead of talking about how important Carlton Members are to the team, actually show it by putting in better efforts than what was dished up last night.

Doesn't matter who we pick, unless there is a real "want", it'll be like shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic.

I've half given up for now. We'll see some great performances, then when we are pumped the most we'll see disappointment. We might even make the 8 (may well not either) but that's the very best we'll do for years until the culture improves, attitudes change and we turn up motivated to play for the jumper win in, week out. Who we put out on the park will mean nothing until then.

We are no chance to make the Jim.

My son is 18 and has been a member ever since he was 2 weeks old but last night he said, "Dad, I have given up and I've transferred to F1 permanently."
He now has no interest in footy and doesn't want to be a member anymore.
As his old man I feel gutted but don't blame him, ever since he can remember we have been a basket case.

Does the Club ever read our comments on here? Do they realise and understand the effect of their heartless performances have?
Reading the comment on here the common theme is lack of heart, desire, mongrel and playing for the pay cheque.

Watching footage of the 80's and 90's all Carlton players had two feet to choose from to kick with and ALL played and put their head over the ball.
Watching our players run around now it's like watching U18's play, flashes of brilliance but sooo many unforced errors and zero game plan.

Yep. My daughter is 19 and has no interest in football. Loved Favola and Judd when she was young but never saw many wins. A life long support lost for ever, and as a father something we could bonded over and talked about after the game.

I had to stay up and watch the Duke's funeral, it's one of those things you see rarely in a lifetime.

Watching the military parade, made me realise where Carlton fit in relative to others, the hours of standing to attention in full kit as the band plays Nimrod.

Would we be the ones likely to be fainting? :o

It was another disappointing effort. Do we practice kicking the ball? We miss targets, we miss shots on goal, our kicks lack penetration and distance, we take the wrong option and we don't kick to the advantage of our team mates. The teaming and skills of the Port players far exceeded those of our own players. Pittonet knocks the ball over the back, Gibbons runs onto the ball and into an empty F50, but what is the plan. Does he kick it to Harry, does he go all the way or does someone run into the F50 and takes the ball short. He kicks to the top of the square, 20 meters from Harry who is now behind two Port players and the ball then sweeps down the other end. There is no coherence in the Carlton play. Every play seems to be a discrete action where the ball carrier makes a decision and if the ball gets to the next Carlton player, that player then makes a decision that may or may not have any relevance to the previous decision. We don't get a consistent chain of play. Everything is reactive whether we have the ball or not. Saad is a perfect example of this. We get it to him, but what is the next play. Do the players down the ground know what he is going to do, are team mates running beside him to draw fire and give him options. What is the plan?
In Teague's press conference he referred to players not executing under pressure. I think he is wrong. I think the problem is not doing the simple things well. Missing goals from 25 meters dead in front. It doesn't matter if it is Harry, Cripps or Casboult, supporters do not have the confidence in the capability of the players to kick the easy goal. Cripps kicks that goal in the second quarter and it is a different game. We stop butchering the ball and it is a different game.
People seem to be ranting about defence but I think it is our forwards which are the problem. We do not kick enough goals. Murphy, Casboult, Gibbons, Silvagni, Foggerty, Cuninngham, Kennedy have never kicked five goals in a match for Carlton, it has also been a long time since Betts has done it and Harry has done it once. Having Charlie in the side would make a difference. When the forwards are kicking goals, the backline functions a lot better because your opponents have to defend and cannot be as free wheeling in their attacks.
Fix our goal kicking, fix our disposal and develop more team cohesion and things will improve. Also instead of talking about how important Carlton Members are to the team, actually show it by putting in better efforts than what was dished up last night.

Absolutely spot on!

Watched the game, some points below:
- Surely Weiters will miss, he was dead set knocked out how he went back out to play is beyond me. He was better after being knocked out though.
- Jones was not allowed to pick marks off
- Saad can't move and must be sore as hell.
- Williams hasn't impressed me one iota
- Can we please get a fwd line coach/consultant (eg a Dunstall, a Dermie, a Rocca) who can work with our fwd line. Sack Bruce now and employ a replacement. That moment in the 2nd when Gibbo was streaming through HFF and H decides to lead back towards goal. FFS lead to the ball carrier.
- The gap between Docs best and worst is huge
- Im afraid Willo is a good VFL player but does SFA at AFL level. I like him but he isn't up to it.
- Newnes also did SFA apart from the late goal

We don't spread anywhere near enough, therefore we don't present options and if they're not forthcoming, you're on a wing and a prayer.  Screams confidence, or lack of it, both in the accuracy of the incoming kick or the ability of the player to cover the ground and protect that space.

Sky high kicks are bloody useless without confidence in the target or a body of teamwork to contest when the ball comes to ground and determine the next passage through traffic.  Low and fast passes are fine if, and only if, it is to an encouraged lead, OR a backline in such disarray with no time to react and prevent an obvious score.

Our close in play seems adequate enough, our chase lamentable and the dam wall fractures once more.

We are no chance to make the Jim.

Depends which Carlton turns up week to week. We can't stay motivated for more than two weeks in a row though.

Depends which Carlton turns up week to week. We can't stay motivated for more than two weeks in a row though.

And that's why. Mathematically sure, but our roller coaster ride approach to seasons will mean we will miss. Nothing surer.

Watched the game, some points below:
- Surely Weiters will miss, he was dead set knocked out how he went back out to play is beyond me. He was better after being knocked out though.
- Jones was not allowed to pick marks off
- Saad can't move and must be sore as hell.
- Williams hasn't impressed me one iota
- Can we please get a fwd line coach/consultant (eg a Dunstall, a Dermie, a Rocca) who can work with our fwd line. Sack Bruce now and employ a replacement. That moment in the 2nd when Gibbo was streaming through HFF and H decides to lead back towards goal. FFS lead to the ball carrier.
- The gap between Docs best and worst is huge
- Im afraid Willo is a good VFL player but does SFA at AFL level. I like him but he isn't up to it.
- Newnes also did SFA apart from the late goal

- Weiters should miss. I'm sure they will cite 'delayed concussion'
- They played Jones well, stopped him from doing what he wanted to do. Kudos to Port coaches/players.
-  Saad wouldn't be playing if we had someone worthy of taking his spot. We are better off playing an injured saad, than a fully fit LOB
- Williams put in a couple of good efforts/tackles that shows why we picked him up. Good user of the ball too. Going ok compared to some.
- FWD line lacks continuity. Every week we have a few players in/out through injuries/form and they are simply not settled. We need better direction, sure, but we also need some stability. No more injuries please!
- Doc had a bit of a nightmare game, but he was still out there putting his head over the ball and doing doc things. It hurts that his mistakes happen on the last line and cost us goals, but he was still a solid player if not for that.
- Willo is someone i've been on the back of for a while now. Every man and his dog keeps telling me how good he is, all i see is Paul Bower V2.0. Does stupid stuff too often. Even his attack on the ball seems to be down a bit, and that was his thing. If Newman and/or Marchbank were fit, Willo would be in the 2's.
- Newnes cops a lot of criticism and i'm not sure why. Yes, i've been his #1 fan, but lets look at the numbers between him and someone playing basically the same role as him, Kennedy.

Stat - Newnes - Kennedy
Disposals  - 16 - 12
DE% - 81.3 - 50
Tackles - 3 - 1
Clearances - 1 - 1
Scores - 1.1 - 0.0
Score involvement - 6 - 1
I50's - 2 - 2
Clangers 1 - 3
Pressure acts - 12 - 11
Turnovers - 3 - 3
TOG% - 76 - 71

So, playing similar time, similar role. Newnes outperformed Kennedy in basically ever area. Yet Newnes gets chastised and Kennedy gets away with a subpar performance.

Newnes isn't flashy. But he does his job. Most of what he does goes unnoticed. Thats his style. He chases, he puts his body on the line and he gets the most out of his body/ability. Newnes is not the problem.

The next few weeks will be very difficult. Could be season ending. Not an easy game before us for a little while.

The quiet achiever in our team is Michael gibbons.  Keeps finding ways to impact contests he shouldn't and somehow can end up against 3 in a contest and gets to the ball and somehow gets it out.

No enough said about what he does.

Personally i don't see what all 'the sky is falling' stuff is about.

We got beaten by a better side and yes, we played poorly.

I'm surprised people expected anything else.

We are on a rollercoaster ride. We will have our ups and downs. Yes its annoying and yes we'd all hope they didn't happen, but this is reality and you MUST expect that from time to time.

I'm not happy about it, i'm not ignoring it, i'm just suggesting that even the top sides terrible days.

Last time it happened (Collingwood) we bounced back. The same might occur this week. Although Brisbane will be a tougher opponent than Freo was (after Collingwood), we will put in a better effort and with a bit of luck get back on the winners list. If nothing else, we have Bombers the week after.

Looking at our injury list, IMO there was no way we were going to win.
As our injury list starts to grow smaller, our wins column should grow larger. We've had a terrible run over the past few years and the start of this year has been no different. Once we start getting the like of Fisher, Martin, SOJ and hopefully Charlie back, we'll look a million bucks!

Ride out the bumps, there is bound to be a few along the way......and there will be more this year. Expect them and you will not be so outraged when they occur.

- Weiters should miss. I'm sure they will cite 'delayed concussion'
- They played Jones well, stopped him from doing what he wanted to do. Kudos to Port coaches/players.
-  Saad wouldn't be playing if we had someone worthy of taking his spot. We are better off playing an injured saad, than a fully fit LOB
- Williams put in a couple of good efforts/tackles that shows why we picked him up. Good user of the ball too. Going ok compared to some.
- FWD line lacks continuity. Every week we have a few players in/out through injuries/form and they are simply not settled. We need better direction, sure, but we also need some stability. No more injuries please!
- Doc had a bit of a nightmare game, but he was still out there putting his head over the ball and doing doc things. It hurts that his mistakes happen on the last line and cost us goals, but he was still a solid player if not for that.
- Willo is someone i've been on the back of for a while now. Every man and his dog keeps telling me how good he is, all i see is Paul Bower V2.0. Does stupid stuff too often. Even his attack on the ball seems to be down a bit, and that was his thing. If Newman and/or Marchbank were fit, Willo would be in the 2's.
- Newnes cops a lot of criticism and i'm not sure why. Yes, i've been his #1 fan, but lets look at the numbers between him and someone playing basically the same role as him, Kennedy.

Stat - Newnes - Kennedy
Disposals  - 16 - 12
DE% - 81.3 - 50
Tackles - 3 - 1
Clearances - 1 - 1
Scores - 1.1 - 0.0
Score involvement - 6 - 1
I50's - 2 - 2
Clangers 1 - 3
Pressure acts - 12 - 11
Turnovers - 3 - 3
TOG% - 76 - 71

So, playing similar time, similar role. Newnes outperformed Kennedy in basically ever area. Yet Newnes gets chastised and Kennedy gets away with a subpar performance.

Newnes isn't flashy. But he does his job. Most of what he does goes unnoticed. Thats his style. He chases, he puts his body on the line and he gets the most out of his body/ability. Newnes is not the problem.

A role that Kennedy is entirely unfamiliar with - another dumb decision by Teague & co.

He's an inside mid and/or a 3rd/4th tall.

Not an outside feeder.....

An unfair comparison on many levels.

A role that Kennedy is entirely unfamiliar with - another dumb decision by Teague & co.

He's an inside mid and/or a 3rd/4th tall.

Not an outside feeder.....

An unfair comparison on many levels.

If he is an inside mid, why didn't he get more clearances?
If he is a 3rd/4th forward, why didn't he impact the scoreboard more?
Both had similar opportunities in both areas.

Newnes equaled or beat him on both fronts.....and in the other areas like pressure, tackles etc.

No player is identical to another, so comparisons will always favour one or the other depending on the area. Newnes beat him on every stat.....except clangers....so why is it unfair?

@kruddler.. Time to time?. Been like waiting for Godot.
Nothing has changed from last season, the club sold the dream over the summer but its more of the same, same players, same mistakes, same results. Even our two wins have been less than impressive vs poor teams.
Think it's natural the natives will be restless and want answers.

I was at the game again last night.

We were never really in the hunt, and Port took their foot off the gas in the last quarter because they had nothing to worry about.  28 points might as well have been 58....

Forget the skill errors, the obvious lack of cohesion when we are moving forward with the ball, three big blokes in the forward line flying against one another, butchered delivery into the forward line, and numerous other sins  - that stuff can be worked on.

But the biggest disappointment, and most distressing, was the ABSOLUTE LACK OF HEART, EFFORT AND PASSION THROWN UP BY SO MANY IN NAVY BLUE.

Examples :

- Pittonet has Lycett pinning him to the ground for at least 30 seconds, and NO ONE, NOT ONE thought about helping him
- Tackling!  Newnes effort on Amon, and subsequent lack of chasing effort, was only one example.  Employ someone from Melbourne Storm FFS and teach them how to do it.
- Chasing - on at least 5 occasions I can remember last night, the effort to chase, corral and harrass was abysmal (have a look at Georgiades goal in the 2nd quarter - OMG SPS....).  I have seen Auskickers chase harder than some of those efforts last night.
- Crippa, please stop trying to do it all on your own.  You end up looking stupid, and the others around you have no idea what you are doing (I don't doubt his heart, but he needs to become a leader!).  And go and get a bunch of balls and practice goal kicking, and don't stop until you are getting 9 out of 10.

I don't care so much about possessions, give me heart and effort any day.  Put the footage of the weak-hearted efforts on the big screen in the Training Room and rip into them.  The lot of them are sitting on big fat salaries, and they dish up that crap.  Stuff the modern 'there, there' psychology - tear strips off them.

I am so tired of 'we just weren't good enoughs' and 'it was only 4 goals'.  We were plain and simple embarrassed last night, and I saw far too many examples of blokes who looked like they didn't care all that much.

If that doesn't turn around and soon, 2021 and beyond is looking bleak.

@kruddler.. Time to time?. Been like waiting for Godot.
Nothing has changed from last season, the club sold the dream over the summer but its more of the same, same players, same mistakes, same results. Even our two wins have been less than impressive vs poor teams.
Think it's natural the natives will be restless and want answers.

Not if mediocrity is your goal.  We're not there yet so give it time.   ::)

I was at the game again last night.

We were never really in the hunt, and Port took their foot off the gas in the last quarter because they had nothing to worry about.  28 points might as well have been 58....

Forget the skill errors, the obvious lack of cohesion when we are moving forward with the ball, three big blokes in the forward line flying against one another, butchered delivery into the forward line, and numerous other sins  - that stuff can be worked on.

But the biggest disappointment, and most distressing, was the ABSOLUTE LACK OF HEART, EFFORT AND PASSION THROWN UP BY SO MANY IN NAVY BLUE.

Examples :

- Pittonet has Lycett pinning him to the ground for at least 30 seconds, and NO ONE, NOT ONE thought about helping him
- Tackling!  Newnes effort on Amon, and subsequent lack of chasing effort, was only one example.  Employ someone from Melbourne Storm FFS and teach them how to do it.
- Chasing - on at least 5 occasions I can remember last night, the effort to chase, corral and harrass was abysmal (have a look at Georgiades goal in the 2nd quarter - OMG SPS....).  I have seen Auskickers chase harder than some of those efforts last night.
- Crippa, please stop trying to do it all on your own.  You end up looking stupid, and the others around you have no idea what you are doing (I don't doubt his heart, but he needs to become a leader!).  And go and get a bunch of balls and practice goal kicking, and don't stop until you are getting 9 out of 10.

I don't care so much about possessions, give me heart and effort any day.  Put the footage of the weak-hearted efforts on the big screen in the Training Room and rip into them.  The lot of them are sitting on big fat salaries, and they dish up that crap.  Stuff the modern 'there, there' psychology - tear strips off them.

I am so tired of 'we just weren't good enoughs' and 'it was only 4 goals'.  We were plain and simple embarrassed last night, and I saw far too many examples of blokes who looked like they didn't care all that much.

If that doesn't turn around and soon, 2021 and beyond is looking bleak.

Solid post. I think it was Jordan Lewis that showed a clip of Levi and Gov standing around like stale bottles of piss in the PA fwd line. Going to the wrong spots, not looking for a man, just being totally useless. Pretty sure there was a goal scored.

If he is an inside mid, why didn't he get more clearances?
If he is a 3rd/4th forward, why didn't he impact the scoreboard more?
Both had similar opportunities in both areas.

Newnes equaled or beat him on both fronts.....and in the other areas like pressure, tackles etc.

No player is identical to another, so comparisons will always favour one or the other depending on the area. Newnes beat him on every stat.....except clangers....so why is it unfair?

Because he wasn't played in position!

Duh.

I'd like to express my deepest gratitude to the Carlton Football to subjecting it's supporters to another week of dismemberment by the likes of oxygen theives like Kane Corn...gag... Retch.   Thanks Carlton,  after nearly 25 years of this it's not getting easier to take.  We've had a f***ing enough.

As many have said, the malaise of mediocrity has consumed everyone and everything at CFC.

From Teague's unwise words late last week to the 2s blowing  a 4 or 5 goal 3-4 time lead....to many saying a 28 point loss to Port isn't so bad.

Why will anything change?

John Barker, to use but one example, has been with the Club since 2011. A decade. And a decade of misery (finals in 2013?)

He was a key forward, or arguably the 3rd tall at the Dawks. Talented player no question.

In 2020, he was anointed the  "midfield and stoppages coach. "

Why?

What bunch of clowns would make a former key forward a midfield and stoppage coach?

Those clowns should be removed immediately - it reeks of finding a spot for a mate in my opinion.

That's not a shot at Barker personally per se, but wtf.

No doubt there are many other examples of similar lunacy.

And we wonder why we struggle to tread water, let alone evolve back into a powerhouse....

As many have said, the malaise of mediocrity has consumed everyone and everything at CFC.

From Teague's unwise words late last week to the 2s blowing  a 4 or 5 goal 3-4 time lead....to many saying a 28 point loss to Port isn't so bad.

Why will anything change?

John Barker, to use but one example, has been with the Club since 2011. A decade. And a decade of misery (finals in 2013?)

He was a key forward, or arguably the 3rd tall at the Dawks. Talented player no question.

In 2020, he was anointed the  "midfield and stoppages coach. "

Why?

What bunch of clowns would make a former key forward a midfield and stoppage coach?

Those clowns should be removed immediately - it reeks of finding a spot for a mate in my opinion.

That's not a shot at Barker personally per se, but wtf.

No doubt there are many other examples of similar lunacy.

And we wonder why we struggle to tread water, let alone evolve back into a powerhouse....

Barker should have been on moved years ago. We need some fresh ideas in the midfield and a better tactician.
Barker is part of a losing culture that we need to move on from.

Wait, there may be hope for us after all.

A few years away mind you.

Barker should have been on moved years ago. We need some fresh ideas in the midfield and a better tactician.
Barker is part of a losing culture that we need to move on from.

Yes, I don't understand.

It's not about being right or wrong, it's just that there are very few if any stones left to turn!

We cut Simmo yet kept Barker, Levi and sMurph. I sort of understand why we kept sMurph, and we are lucky we kept Levi, but sooner or later you need a clean sweep!

Losing can be contagious.

Further I worry the BB era has broken Cripps, sure he was a warrior, but now he's a broken arrow! That failing mindset from a season or two back, those private issues, loom large!

(https://us.123rf.com/450wm/ellinanova/ellinanova1809/ellinanova180900006/110221416-a-man-is-squashed-a-stone-with-a-flag-in-a-hand-with-inscription-help-on-the-white-background.jpg?ver=6)
Have we a bunch of Pavlov's Dogs, ................... trained to lose at the first sign of stress?

9.14 feck me! I was out so I only watched bits and pieces of the 1st and 2nd qtr on my phone. All I saw was us bust a boiler to get in I50 only to  kick a behind and they went I50 and kicked a goal. Nothings changed in that regard Id say.

Easily too.  They just seemed to kick them at will.  At one stage we were leading the inside 50s by a large margin, but they were up by 4 goals.  every time they went past the half way line, they looked a certainty to score - so much confidence and so much skill

In 33 games under Teague we have lost by over 5 goals only twice, one a regular "cue in the rack round" 22 game. If we were actually hungry and properly motivated on a regular basis we'd actually do pretty well. Makes it more frustrating.

Koutas son kicked 11 goals playing for his local footy club. Father son mid season draft I wouldn’t be mad haha   ;) maybe if we stopped stuffing up sitters infront of the goals we might win these games

We seem to have a distinct desire NOT to employ former senior coaches to assist our 'apprentice' coach, just in case they start looking over their shoulder!! 
Goodwin was told that Alan Richardson would be sitting in the box with him, then he was told that 'the forgotten man' (too old, don't touch him) Mark Williams would come in to improve their kicking and toughen them up around the ball. Melbourne were as soft as us............now look at them!!
Horse Longmire was happy to take on board the intel that Don Pike could provide, while Stewie Dew saw value is getting the football brain of Rhyce  Shaw onto his team!!
We keep persisting with Barker, Bruce, Amos and Stanton!!
Give Ross Lyon a 9 month contract to come in and help Teague tell a few players a few home truths (I'm sure Choco does!!)  Lyon has enough to do and seems comfortable 'out of the cut and thrust of coaching', but would probably enjoy a bit of 'club land' interaction. 
For Teague, it may very well prolong his coaching career rather than shorten it!!!

Koutas son kicked 11 goals playing for his local footy club. Father son mid season draft I wouldn’t be mad haha   ;) maybe if we stopped stuffing up sitters infront of the goals we might win these games

Who Lukas or Jamie???

In 33 games under Teague we have lost by over 5 goals only twice, one a regular "cue in the rack round" 22 game. If we were actually hungry and properly motivated on a regular basis we'd actually do pretty well. Makes it more frustrating.

But is that something to write home about Jim given we got a fair few junk goals in games against sides who'd already done their work and established their lead?  Time for some real home truths.  Let's see the Brisbane game unfold. 

Another one of those 20-30 point losses but in reality, Port were a 10 goal better side and the margin flattered us. We were competitive in the first quarter but how many times did we miss a sitter for them to just waltz it done the other end at ease and kick a goal...I can remember at least 4. At times it looked like they had 3 or 4 extra players out there...that's how poor our defence and manning up was.

Docherty is a shadow of the AA player he was. I think Jones had about half a dozen kicks and pretty much picked out an opposition player with every one of them. I had hopes for Williamson when he strung some games together late last year but he's not up to scratch and would already be behind Parks in the pecking order. He continually tries to do more than his skill set would allow and is so one sided it's laughable. It can't happen but what would we give for some steadiness like Kade Simpson off a half back flank at the moment?

And don't get me started on SPS! Barely gets out of first gear, doesn't chase, doesn't put his body on the line and doesn't even look like he wants to be out there.

Agree on the earlier comments re McGovern....play him down back while Parks is out injured.

And for mine, no coincidence that Silvagni goes out and the pressure work off the ball and the desire for the footy drops away...if fit, he's one of the first blokes I'd pick each week. Similarly, Cottrell and Pittonet might not be in the same class as some of their higher paid team mates but you know what you'll get each week....a 100% contest.

It's hard to see where the improvement comes from to be honest. Yes injuries don't help but I can't see how our skills have improved over the last 5 years under either Teague or Bolton. We're absolutely kidding if we see ourselves as a top 8 team! We are no closer than in previous years and likely be making up the bottom 6 again.

Most of the things I wanted to post have already been said in one way or another, but I will put on my 2 cents worth. I am not as angry as I was, so I will probably sound saner.

[1]   We won’t really be a contender until we play a brand of football closer to that of Richmond or Port Adelaide. We do not show the desire, the overlying will to get the ball that allows those teams to make tackles and smothers. We do not attack the ball or our opponents enough.
It isn’t a matter of speed, although we looked slow against Port, it is that they moved flat out, while too many of our guys give up far too soon.
It isn’t case where adding a couple of players will make the difference, or, for that matter, just changing the coach. It is something that has to be a part of everyone, the belief in themselves, the will to get the ball against the odds, the willingness to make body contact and make opponents suffer for getting to the ball first.

[2]   Our skills are not good enough. Simple as that.
This is an area where the players and coaches do have a fair bit to answer for. We were going around 61%, Port were going around 80%. We need to go around 80%; most of the better teams do.
Now there is a confidence issue here, especially with guys like Levi Casboult, who has improved so much, but is still not the kick you can depend on. We do have a number of players who are similar, and lack faith in their disposal.
However, what do you do it? Practice, training from a brilliant kick, for starters.
It is simply unprofessional that Patrick Cripps constantly misses set shots from 30 m out or less, and he isn’t alone.
Harry McKay may be only young, but with 4 years in the program he should have a set routine for shots at goal for any distance. I don’t care if he kicks around a corner, but he has no know that any shot is more likely to go in than not.
We have had kicking coaches. Certainly, Levi has improved a lot with one. But we need one to rate all of the side’s disposal efficiency and get one or two people in to improve it.
Our coaches need to work on disposing of the ball well under pressure.
Otherwise, we will still loose.

[3]   Recruiting:
We do appear to be making some progress in this area, as the rank incompetence of the Hughes - Rogers Era appears to have gone. Silvagni was good at making deals and had a much better eye than his predecessors, but he still missed out badly when we picked Dow and O’Brien.
Austin is going OK so far, but we still don’t have the elite players wanting to come to us.
We need to make sure our recruits have good skills, before anything else. Good kicking covers a lot of other sins.
Our game plan on the weekend was to chip the ball short. However, we don’t have the kicking skills to make it work. Too many times we turned the ball over because the 3rd short kick was too high, or too long, or too short. Even Murphy did this, and he is quite a reasonable kick.
Then want players who have high emotional intelligence, so they don’t panic under pressure. H, for example, makes some silly mistakes because he panics and doesn’t want to have set shots. Nor is her alone. Many of our players look to share the ball when they are within kicking distance. Sometimes that is good team football, but sometimes you just need to take the responsibility and do the job yourself!

[4]   Development:
We do seem to be improving in this area, but if you look at some of our competitors, they manage to get kids playing good senior football from the get-go. Other than Cripps and Walsh, that hasn’t been the case with us. We really need for our kids to develop into what we want before they are 30.

[5]   Picking physically unbreakable players:
We haven’t had a full list available in any game since the mid 1990’s, and even then, we didn’t do it very often. We have taken one step there in our recruitment of a top fitness/rehab man as out High-Performance manager. Fine.
We also have links with LaTrobe Uni on the sports’ science side of thing. Also, a good move.
But we tend to recruit people who break easily. What is wrong with recruiting people who don’t break easily?
Taking the occasional risk with a player who has had an injury is one thing, taking a guy who is always injured is a serious error. For example, Marchbank. He is a fine player, but he is one who can’t get on the park. Why did we spend so much to get him?

But is that something to write home about Jim given we got a fair few junk goals in games against sides who'd already done their work and established their lead?  Time for some real home truths.  Let's see the Brisbane game unfold.

We can argue the semantics but that's the facts, we are competitive. What I am saying is we should be winning alot more but we are simply not hungry enough and it's frustrating. Only a couple of times we found ourselves 40+ at 3/4 time if you want to eliminate the junk time issue, one being Saturday (quite a few times in the 2nd qtr before fighting back and sometimes even winning). Even then we stayed in some touch for a long time playing as badly as we were. We can do alot better and should be. We are a waste of talent.

Who Lukas or Jamie???

Lukas.

Another one of those 20-30 point losses but in reality, Port were a 10 goal better side and the margin flattered us. We were competitive in the first quarter but how many times did we miss a sitter for them to just waltz it done the other end at ease and kick a goal...I can remember at least 4. At times it looked like they had 3 or 4 extra players out there...that's how poor our defence and manning up was.

Docherty is a shadow of the AA player he was. I think Jones had about half a dozen kicks and pretty much picked out an opposition player with every one of them. I had hopes for Williamson when he strung some games together late last year but he's not up to scratch and would already be behind Parks in the pecking order. He continually tries to do more than his skill set would allow and is so one sided it's laughable. It can't happen but what would we give for some steadiness like Kade Simpson off a half back flank at the moment?

And don't get me started on SPS! Barely gets out of first gear, doesn't chase, doesn't put his body on the line and doesn't even look like he wants to be out there.

Agree on the earlier comments re McGovern....play him down back while Parks is out injured.

And for mine, no coincidence that Silvagni goes out and the pressure work off the ball and the desire for the footy drops away...if fit, he's one of the first blokes I'd pick each week. Similarly, Cottrell and Pittonet might not be in the same class as some of their higher paid team mates but you know what you'll get each week....a 100% contest.

It's hard to see where the improvement comes from to be honest. Yes injuries don't help but I can't see how our skills have improved over the last 5 years under either Teague or Bolton. We're absolutely kidding if we see ourselves as a top 8 team! We are no closer than in previous years and likely be making up the bottom 6 again.

Improvement would be instant if we were motivated enough on a consistent basis. We don't want it badly enough hence don't work hard enough. Look at games where we are really switched on. There's run, spread and suddenly the skills are way better. We are are top 8 team and better if we badly "want" to be. There's the issue and it's frustrating. Even on bad days, which is alot of them, we don't take thrashings on the scoreboard and always "in" games mostly. Currently, right now, we are a waste of ability.

We can argue the semantics

Who is arguing?  I'm making a valid point, as are you

Improvement would be instant if we were motivated enough on a consistent basis. We don't want it badly enough hence don't work hard enough. Look at games where we are really switched on. There's run, spread and suddenly the skills are way better. We are are top 8 team and better if we badly "want" to be. There's the issue and it's frustrating. Even on bad days, which is alot of them, we don't take thrashings on the scoreboard and always "in" games mostly. Currently, right now, we are a waste of ability.

I'd agree
You can usually tell in the first 10 minutes of a game whether it's 'good Carlton' or 'bad Carlton' that has turned up.
You see it in the pressure and intensity.
It's reflected in the number and force of players at the contests.
A few desperate acts early on can set the tone for others.
So can weak efforts!
If we come to play I reckon we can trouble any team.
If we don't it gets ugly in this place...'in game' and 'post match.'

So who bears responsibility for that...and if it's the issue it seems...how do we fix it?

The age old story with us.

The gap between our best and worst remains huge!

We seem to have a distinct desire NOT to employ former senior coaches to assist our 'apprentice' coach, just in case they start looking over their shoulder!! 
Goodwin was told that Alan Richardson would be sitting in the box with him, then he was told that 'the forgotten man' (too old, don't touch him) Mark Williams would come in to improve their kicking and toughen them up around the ball. Melbourne were as soft as us............now look at them!!
Horse Longmire was happy to take on board the intel that Don Pike could provide, while Stewie Dew saw value is getting the football brain of Rhyce  Shaw onto his team!!
We keep persisting with Barker, Bruce, Amos and Stanton!!
Give Ross Lyon a 9 month contract to come in and help Teague tell a few players a few home truths (I'm sure Choco does!!)  Lyon has enough to do and seems comfortable 'out of the cut and thrust of coaching', but would probably enjoy a bit of 'club land' interaction. 
For Teague, it may very well prolong his coaching career rather than shorten it!!!

I just want a fwd line coach that actually played as a fwd.

Who Lukas or Jamie???

Lukas! He’s a unit! Just getting ready for our next rebuild 😆

The age old story with us.

The gap between our best and worst remains huge!

It's the gap between the ears that worries me the most.  The hunger to compete is nowhere near that of the teams at the top end.

I think we have serious motivation issues, and when things are not going well, many of the players go into 'me first' mode and the teamwork evaporates.  You can only see it when you are at the game - the lack of hard running up and down the ground 60-100 metres ahead of the play.  It is why we look so slow, because many players cruise around in 2nd gear, and end up chasing tails.

In contrast, on Saturday night, Port Adelaide had their entire playing group on the one page, and it showed so clearly - they ran in silver waves down the ground and we looked like witches' hats.  Despite the stats being relatively close in most areas, we were just never in the hunt and should have lost by far more.

I fear that being happy to run second has become embedded in the DNA. 

Surely our backline must go into siege mentality mode early in a game when our inevitable skill errors cause turnovers on our half forward line and the ball comes rocketing back at them through the centre.

Those skill errors, unwillingness to chase and consequent lack of pressure on opposition teams must contribute to a losing mindset that has been a feature of the club for most of this century despite a huge turnover in the players list and numerous coaches.

An air of complacency seems to be a feature of the club - how else to explain the recruitment of players with mediocre skills at best and then providing them with no specialised coaching to reach AFL standard?

Harry is a prime example.  Why has he not been taught a set routine when taking a set shot for goal?  It is quite plain to see that his current method depends entirely on the thought bubble occupying his mind just before taking his kick.

That raises the question: why do we keep recruiting players whose skills will keep us occupying the bottom half of the ladder?

I wish I had the overconfidence of Paul P.  At present I am struggling to be in the glass half full frame of mind.

..........................................
I wish I had the overconfidence of Paul P.  At present I am struggling to be in the glass half full frame of mind.

Not overconfident, just my version of realistic.

Macca....problem is that there's plenty of errors/turnovers coming out of the backline as well....how many times did Jones kick it straight to an opponent, or dropped marks by Docherty, lack of chasing and pressure. Robbie Gray would be one of the most dangerous players in the game yet he was often 50m in the clear on his own....so something is breaking down somewhere.

That margin completely flattered us and was one of the worst games we've played in a while....yet we were right in it in the first quarter. Unfortunately it's become a trait of the team under Teague....play a couple of shocking quarters each game and then we're completely out of reach.

You are correct about the clangers and mistakes made by the backline.  I think what gets me fired up is the complete lack of pressure put on the opposition's mids.

On so many occasions the Port mids just waltzed straight down the centre without any pressure. It was like watching a training exercise where talented mids had multiple options with forwards leading to designated positions and then having the ball delivered accurately to them.  Our backline was always under pressure with little help from further afield.

Spot on Macca.....said it in one of the other discussion topics....at times it looked like they had 3 extra players out there!

Surely our backline must go into siege mentality mode early in a game when our inevitable skill errors cause turnovers on our half forward line and the ball comes rocketing back at them through the centre.

Those skill errors, unwillingness to chase and consequent lack of pressure on opposition teams must contribute to a losing mindset that has been a feature of the club for most of this century despite a huge turnover in the players list and numerous coaches.

An air of complacency seems to be a feature of the club - how else to explain the recruitment of players with mediocre skills at best and then providing them with no specialised coaching to reach AFL standard?

Harry is a prime example.  Why has he not been taught a set routine when taking a set shot for goal?  It is quite plain to see that his current method depends entirely on the thought bubble occupying his mind just before taking his kick.

That raises the question: why do we keep recruiting players whose skills will keep us occupying the bottom half of the ladder?

I wish I had the overconfidence of Paul P.  At present I am struggling to be in the glass half full frame of mind.

Apparently he spent all summer working with a Psyche on his kicking routine and they determined what works best for him. You are seeing the results.

An air of complacency seems to be a feature of the club - how else to explain the recruitment of players with mediocre skills at best and then providing them with no specialised coaching to reach AFL standard?

Harry is a prime example.  Why has he not been taught a set routine when taking a set shot for goal?  It is quite plain to see that his current method depends entirely on the thought bubble occupying his mind just before taking his kick.

That raises the question: why do we keep recruiting players whose skills will keep us occupying the bottom half of the ladder?

It takes serious skill to assemble so many players like this in the one team. Commendable really.

Spot on Macca.....said it in one of the other discussion topics....at times it looked like they had 3 extra players out there!

I love listening to Hodge's special comments where he points out where the mistakes are made and where more attention/effort must be made and where things must be done better. If only we had someone like him at the club directing our onfield efforts I think we could start making strides forward in our player development.

I love listening to Hodge's special comments where he points out where the mistakes are made and where more attention/effort must be made and where things must be done better. If only we had someone like him at the club directing our onfield efforts I think we could start making strides forward in our player development.

Can’t stand him

Can’t stand him

You don't have to like him. Ruthless people can often be unlikable.

You don't have to like him. Ruthless people can often be unlikable.

I didnt like David Rhys Jones at the Swans, hated Greg Williams too....couple of premierships can make you fall in love real quick.. ;)

You don't have to like him. Ruthless people can often be unlikable.

Agree cookie, Hodge was the biggest sniping Kent in the game and I couldn't stand him. But those who have played along side or against him will tell you he IS the man you want to lead you into battle. He drove the standards Clarko set, he made abundantly clear that if it you didn't like it, pack your bag and fork off. Clarko didn't have to do a thing, he just set his attack dog. off and the job was done. They partied hard make no mistake about that and they were admirable led by Hodgey, his closed shop house parties were legendary, but the partying was only at appropriate times. He would be a brilliant assistant coach for us, but it will never happen because Barker, Bruce and co have pension plans with the club.

CARLTON’S CONCERN

Points against
86.0
Rank 13th

Opp goals per inside 50 %
24.3%
Rank 15th

Points from turnover diff
-9.8
Rank 15th

Opp pts from defensive half
36.2
Rank 14th

D50 to inside 50 %
18.1%
Rank 18th

Pressure factor
169
Rank 18th

@MBB.....

I'd like to see what kind of DE% we have, specifically kicking.

Majority of those stats could be a result of poor kicking.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/carlton-stand-for-nothing-says-maclure-20210419-p57kjp.html

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/carlton-stand-for-nothing-says-maclure-20210419-p57kjp.html

Under David Teague, Maclure and other former players have questioned the use of younger players and the roles they are given in the team. The young players when they have played have not played critical midfield roles.

“What’s wrong with [Liam] Stocker? What is wrong with Paddy Dow? They are not going to win the premiership so why not play these blokes?” Maclure said.

Oh my God. Just speechless. More reasons why I don't rate Maclure at all.

CARLTON’S CONCERN

Points against
86.0
Rank 13th

Opp goals per inside 50 %
24.3%
Rank 15th

Points from turnover diff
-9.8
Rank 15th

Opp pts from defensive half
36.2
Rank 14th

D50 to inside 50 %
18.1%
Rank 18th

Pressure factor
169
Rank 18th

Pressure factor is no surprise, you have to be near an opponent to pressure them.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/carlton-stand-for-nothing-says-maclure-20210419-p57kjp.html

I read the whole article.  Maclure sees what most supporters see: 20 wasted years.  Couldn't agree more.

I read the whole article.  Maclure sees what most supporters see: 20 wasted years.  Couldn't agree more.

Hard to disagree isnt it, doesnt hold back on McGovern, SPS, Betts and Murphy either, something will have to give at seasons end if this trend continues, we appear to be slipping in some key onfield areas from last season. A lot of it is just not working hard enough and less to do with talent.

Hard to disagree isnt it, doesnt hold back on McGovern, SPS, Betts and Murphy either, something will have to give at seasons end if this trend continues, we appear to be slipping in some key onfield areas from last season. A lot of it is just not working hard enough and less to do with talent.

My main concern would be playing kids when we don't have that professional hard core to our team. In order to properly develop kids need that on-field professional support and we were/are sadly lacking there. The words "deadly embrace" are beginning to haunt me!

So let's just focus on something for a moment before we lose our marbles.

Bolton played the kids.  Before their time and got canned for it. 

Teague comes in, gets better results playing the more mature players.  Getting canned for not playing the kids.

Every one of our issues stems from a lack of consistency of approach and not from player selections, thats the media not doing their job properly.

Don't whip yourselves into a frenzy over nothing.  Dimma has been coaching the Tigers for 11 years.  In that time we've had not one, not two, not three, but 5 senior coaches!! 

Ratten
Malthouse
Barker
Bolton
Teague

Why are we a rabble in comparison? Why do we look like we don't know what we are doing?  We've probably had 3 times the number of players go through our best 22 in that time as well.

Heard a reporter talk about Port and how they have recovered since playing Carlton.
They said even though they won they only played Carlton.
As a supporter/member, that hurts. (But it's getting less because I care less, just like the players)

Heard a reporter talk about Port and how they have recovered since playing Carlton.
They said even though they won they only played Carlton.
As a supporter/member, that hurts. (But it's getting less because I care less, just like the players)

Bruise free footy

Thry....it's the mixed messages and direction from the top.   We've had a series of five year plans,  none of which were followed through to completion (probably because they were flawed from the start).  What's the saying,  don't change horses mid stream?

Been saying it for a long time,  aside from the support staff around the current coach,  what's been the common thread throughout the last two decades of mediocrity?   The group behind the mahogany door.

The media pile-on is getting boring.

I look at out flag teams of the 80's and 95. Whilst footy is no doubt different there is one tangible imo - the desire to play for each other.
Until we can find a coach and coaching group that get our players to play for each other we will never rise from the ashes. Those teams in the past when they went off the plan of playing for each other they could get beat by anyone - and often did (St Kilda in 95 for example). But they had the maturity to recognise and fix that, and were able to take a good old fashioned bake by the coach.
Recruiting 2 outside runners in the 2 top 10 draft picks doesn't help, but we cant change the playing stocks this year. There is no system or willingness to be hard for their mates. This will spread and inject confidence, rather than this crap of being bruise free then missing easy shots which spreads frustration and is confidence sapping. For players and supporters!

I have absolutely no doubt that the comments/criticisms from Sellers are borne out of two things and two things only:

1.   His love of the club.
2.   An experience, and understanding, of what is required for success at the highest level AND how to sustain that.
I bet most former players from our club pre, say, around 2002 would be thinking very similar to what Sellers has expressed. Likewise former coaches and Presidents.

Very few former players, pre 2002, right back to 1897, would have experienced such an extended period of abject failure from our club.

This is now THE most unsuccessful period in our club’s history in terms of on-field performance.

If Sellers wonders what we stand for, humbly, may I suggest – NICE. We are a very NICE club. We even make it a committed goal to please the AFL with playing pretty, bruise free, footy as well.

Have you ever had a chat with our President? I have, coupla times. And I found him to be a genuinely NICE person, really nice. He really is a warm, chatty and very likeable bloke. So approachable.

The TT. Another NICE person. Very even tempered too. Really likeable as well.

Our players are also really nice. So nice that when Pitto was in a scuffle with Port opponents on Saturday night not one of his team mates came to help out – we’ll have none of that vulgar aggression or ruthlessness… thank you very much, because we’re nice. Psychologically, we may just be the nicest and most submissive club in the AFL.

When Sellers, Sticks, Diesel, Rhys, Dommy, Vinny, Big Nick, Wallsy, Barass etc. were running around in Navy blue, there was no NICE, only a not-negotiable expectation to win – everything. You see something very similar with those pesky successful clubs of the past 20 years - uncompromising players, senior coaches and Presidents.

I suspect Sellers understands what it takes to succeed, what you have to stand for to succeed, and he is only trying to remind his beloved BlueBaggers of just that.

If there’s a Premiership Cup for 'nice'… give it to us now, we’re streets ahead of the rest.

Sellers can state what he believes is right.  He earned it.  Just love to hear what Swan McKay thinks.  It would be savage.

Sellers can state what he believes is right.  He earned it.  Just love to hear what Swan McKay thinks.  It would be savage.

He can, but it's also worthwhile trying to look at possible motivations for his opinions. He works in media, and part of that media work is for Murdoch. It should come as little surprise to those who study the workings of the media even on a basic level, that :
a. nobody does muck and negativity like Rupert, because as we know even on these forums, bad news is good for business. And when the news isn't quite bad enough, amplify and turn it into a major drama
b. the quest for followers, viewers, ratings, advertising dollars and the like mean that those in the media will find the easiest path to achieve these, and that path is basically giving the viewers and supporters their own opinions right back at 'em. Maclure probably hangs around forums like this, and would certainly bump into plenty of Blues supporters who are more than happy to air their grievances.

IMO, he is an out-of-touch, old school dinosaur, and very reactionary to boot. he did a little assistant coaching gig with the Bad News Bears, but really has not had any access to the inner workings of football clubs for decades.

Been saying it for a long time,  aside from the support staff around the current coach,  what's been the common thread throughout the last two decades of mediocrity?   The group behind the mahogany door.

So if nothing had changed behind those doors, why are we financially in a better position than ever? Why are each of our off field goals being met?

Don't confuse causation and correlation.

Perhaps in the past it has been board, perhaps now it's lack of assistants and assistance for the senior coach.

Perhaps we are exactly where we are with the talent we have.

He can, but it's also worthwhile trying to look at possible motivations for his opinions. He works in media, and part of that media work is for Murdoch. It should come as little surprise to those who study the workings of the media even on a basic level, that :
a. nobody does muck and negativity like Rupert, because as we know even on these forums, bad news is good for business. And when the news isn't quite bad enough, amplify and turn it into a major drama
b. the quest for followers, viewers, ratings, advertising dollars and the like mean that those in the media will find the easiest path to achieve these, and that path is basically giving the viewers and supporters their own opinions right back at 'em. Maclure probably hangs around forums like this, and would certainly bump into plenty of Blues supporters who are more than happy to air their grievances.

IMO, he is an out-of-touch, old school dinosaur, and very reactionary to boot. he did a little assistant coaching gig with the Bad News Bears, but really has not had any access to the inner workings of football clubs for decades.

What ever his motivations are is he right or wrong when he says 20 years of failure and not standing for anything..?

What ever his motivations are is he right or wrong when he says 20 years of failure and not standing for anything..?

He's right about the last 20 years, but "not standing for anything" is one of those loose phrases that really doesn't mean anything. Think about it. What does Hawthorn "stand for" ? Geelong ? Richmond ? Our club wants to win and has good intentions, but being unable to achieve that consistently does not mean we "stand for nothing."

I've never been a Maclure fan. I think he's a moron, just shoots his gob off with zero accountability. 

What ever his motivations are is he right or wrong when he says 20 years of failure and not standing for anything..?

What has what happened before Sam Walsh was even born got to do with where we are at right now as a football club.

People are frustrated. I am too. But don't let logic escape your thinking.

Realistically we are in the same position as a St kilda or an essendon. A team that has not had success recently (or for a while) who has a new coach on board and is working through it as best they can.

Now both those teams have put in worse performances than us this year. But because the media pumped us up we are imploding.
That seems to be ignoring our injury list and ignoring our performance against Richmond....and our 2 wins.

Now, I can tell you how the next week will go...
We'll turn up to play against the lions, go ok for most of it, have a down period where they kick away and despite some good signs we will ultimately lose by 3 or 4 goals.....and you know what, that is ok because they are a better side than us.

Further to that...
An older player will have a shocker.
An out of form player will play their best game of the year.
A young player will show promising signs and we'll pump him up prematurely.
The coach will get chastised for some words.
Some people will be ready to burn their memberships.
The media will turn the heat up on the club....again.

Bookmark this and tell me how I did. ;)

He's right about the last 20 years, but "not standing for anything" is one of those loose phrases that really doesn't mean anything. Think about it. What does Hawthorn "stand for" ? Geelong ? Richmond ? Our club wants to win and has good intentions, but being unable to achieve that consistently does not mean we "stand for nothing."

I've never been a Maclure fan. I think he's a moron, just shoots his gob off with zero accountability. 

Maclure played in an era when other teams respected Carlton and how we played the game. You were expected to rebound next week and win if you lost... No excuses.
The brand of football wasnt allowed to be the bruise free rubbish we offer up to day.
Losing and being happy with honorable losses was for loser teams like Stkilda and other teams who were our bitches.
Their is no respect for us now, we are a pencilled in possible win for every other team.
We are seen as weak physically and play a passive brand that can embarrass when highlighted. All that is just totally against everything Maclure identifies with a successful Carlton. Sure the game has changed but not to the extent when you give up your identity so easily as a leading club like we have and that would burn Maclure.

How would we go with someone like Gary Ayers sitting in the box and being an advisor / mentor?? Experienced, successful and no real threat for the big job??  Even Justin Leppisch??  Hard edge, been with successful clubs and has a few clues about the caper and also not interested in the ‘big job’.  We need a tough hardened  support mechanism that obviously isn’t there at the moment.....

What has what happened before Sam Walsh was even born got to do with where we are at right now as a football club.

People are frustrated. I am too. But don't let logic escape your thinking.

Realistically we are in the same position as a St kilda or an essendon. A team that has not had success recently (or for a while) who has a new coach on board and is working through it as best they can.

Now both those teams have put in worse performances than us this year. But because the media pumped us up we are imploding.
That seems to be ignoring our injury list and ignoring our performance against Richmond....and our 2 wins.

Now, I can tell you how the next week will go...
We'll turn up to play against the lions, go ok for most of it, have a down period where they kick away and despite some good signs we will ultimately lose by 3 or 4 goals.....and you know what, that is ok because they are a better side than us.

Further to that...
An older player will have a shocker.
An out of form player will play their best game of the year.
A young player will show promising signs and we'll pump him up prematurely.
The coach will get chastised for some words.
Some people will be ready to burn their memberships.
The media will turn the heat up on the club....again.

Bookmark this and tell me how I did. ;)

You'll probably be pretty spot on.

It's like watching the '300' for the fiftieth time.
Same script.
You'd just like to see the Spartans have a winning season.

I think the main problem is this.
In a developing side you'll often have the odd poor performance but there is a general upward trend that folks can get excited about.
We seem to have those moments.
Teague's first games gave that hope.
Our problem is we then have these periods where things don't progress, or go backwards, that deflates the supporter base.
The loss against Port was bad but it's given extra emphasis because it fits a pattern we've seen before.
Supporters are frustrated by it, our ex-players are angry and distressed.

I've no idea what the dynamics are that cause this malaise.
It's been a pattern over the last 20 years, but your right when you say the events and characters of 2002 have little relevance to 2021.
Even a culturally crippled side should have recovered by now.

The problem I see is that there seems to be little stomach for the sort of independent review that could identify on-field and off-field issues.
We've had players, coaches and admin from other clubs that have passed through the doors in the last 20 years who would be able to give some really good comparisons...and maybe identify common issues.
It may be we work our way through it all without such a review.
But it might also be possible that such a review would fast track the process.

That of course depends on a group in charge that have a desire to implement any recommendations.

What has what happened before Sam Walsh was even born got to do with where we are at right now as a football club.

People are frustrated. I am too. But don't let logic escape your thinking.

Realistically we are in the same position as a St kilda or an essendon. A team that has not had success recently (or for a while) who has a new coach on board and is working through it as best they can.

Now both those teams have put in worse performances than us this year. But because the media pumped us up we are imploding.
That seems to be ignoring our injury list and ignoring our performance against Richmond....and our 2 wins.

Now, I can tell you how the next week will go...
We'll turn up to play against the lions, go ok for most of it, have a down period where they kick away and despite some good signs we will ultimately lose by 3 or 4 goals.....and you know what, that is ok because they are a better side than us.

Further to that...
An older player will have a shocker.
An out of form player will play their best game of the year.
A young player will show promising signs and we'll pump him up prematurely.
The coach will get chastised for some words.
Some people will be ready to burn their memberships.
The media will turn the heat up on the club....again.

Bookmark this and tell me how I did. ;)

Essendon and Stkilda as reference levels..? Maybe that's our problem, we just lower the bar every year to that of the other long term losers and are contented to be seen as no worse.. No wonder it does someone like Maclures head in and all the other old timers..

How would we go with someone like Gary Ayers sitting in the box and being an advisor / mentor?? Experienced, successful and no real threat for the big job??  Even Justin Leppisch??  Hard edge, been with successful clubs and has a few clues about the caper and also not interested in the ‘big job’.  We need a tough hardened  support mechanism that obviously isn’t there at the moment.....

I'd be interested in Leppitsch, because he played in successful teams, at least later in his career, and because he was part of the recent Richmond resurgence - something that would be relevant to us, as we try to put more pieces of the puzzle in place. In fact, in some ways he's seen it all. Dismalness in the early years with the Bears and Lions, not great success as a senior coach, but success with later teams and as an assistant. We could do a lot worse IMO.

I have no interest in him or anyone else because he will supposedly toughen up the players, not accept crap etc., notions which I find lacking any real insight or common sense.

Excuse my cynicism,  but we've got less off field debt... Whoopedy doo.   Most clubs live with massive debt,  they're not typical businesses.   Question I'm asking is,  so how has that translated into infield success?

The currency of football is wins and premierships, period.  At least 4 Melbourne clubs  have been essentially bust for years,  didn't stop the likes of the bulldogs winning a flag.

The likes of the Matheson faction, the Elliot faction etc etc have been pulling the strings for a loooooooning time. Probably the greater part of the last twenty years.  Is there a correlation there?

I don't think we have the right people at any level of this club,  the proof is in the pudding..... Zero on field success for over twenty years and 2021 looking just as bleak.

Time to change it up at all levels.

Excuse my cynicism,  but we've got less off field debt... Whoopedy doo.   Most clubs live with massive debt,  they're not typical businesses.   Question I'm asking is,  so how has that translated into infield success?

The currency of football is wins and premierships, period.  At least 4 Melbourne clubs  have been essentially bust for years,  didn't stop the likes of the bulldogs winning a flag.

The likes of the Matheson faction, the Elliot faction etc etc have been pulling the strings for a loooooooning time. Probably the greater part of the last twenty years.  Is there a correlation there?

I don't think we have the right people at any level of this club,  the proof is in the pudding..... Zero on field success for over twenty years and 2021 looking just as bleak.

Time to change it up at all levels.

Interesting post. We should have gutted the whole club when Bolton was appointed. Rebuild the board, executive, footy department, list, assistant coaches etc. That was the time to do it. What we did was gut the list, and make a few changes to the higher ups, which didn't really go far enough. To do that now would probably destroy the club.

Maclure played in an era when other teams respected Carlton and how we played the game. You were expected to rebound next week and win if you lost... No excuses.
The brand of football wasnt allowed to be the bruise free rubbish we offer up to day.
Losing and being happy with honorable losses was for loser teams like Stkilda and other teams who were our bitches.
Their is no respect for us now, we are a pencilled in possible win for every other team.
We are seen as weak physically and play a passive brand that can embarrass when highlighted. All that is just totally against everything Maclure identifies with a successful Carlton. Sure the game has changed but not to the extent when you give up your identity so easily as a leading club like we have and that would burn Maclure.

If Maclure genuinely loves the club and thinks he has the answers, then he should stop bleating from the sidelines, and roll up his sleeves and do some real work in helping us out. His whinging, fan boy antics are the journalistic equivalent of bruise free footy.

Essendon and Stkilda as reference levels..? Maybe that's our problem, we just lower the bar every year to that of the other long term losers and are contented to be seen as no worse.. No wonder it does someone like Maclures head in and all the other old timers..

The reference was in terms of coaching appointment and perceived ladder position for 2021.
Remember 1 in 9 at the age and similar at the HS had us in the 8. About the same as bombers. Saints were in there more from memory.

So yes, like it or not, they are our peers at present. Any suggestion otherwise is looking through navy coloured glasses.

Excuse my cynicism,  but we've got less off field debt... Whoopedy doo.   Most clubs live with massive debt,  they're not typical businesses.   Question I'm asking is,  so how has that translated into infield success?

How? Easy.

1. Upgrade facilities.
Make it a place where we can get the best out of players, physically and mentally. If they are happy they are more likely to perform. If we have all the mod cons, they are more likely to perform.

2. Make it attractive comparatively to others clubs.
Why would you want to go there, when we have all this? That means players are less likely to leave and more likely to stay....and stay for less. This clearly helps build a better list.

3. As above, but with staff, not just players.


Get happier, healthier and better players and staff at the club and on field results will improve.

BTW, there is a lag with this. It doesn't happen instantly.

Fyi, look at what happened with Richmond if you disagree with the above.

He's right about the last 20 years, but "not standing for anything" is one of those loose phrases that really doesn't mean anything. I humbly disagree. Standing for something means a great deal -- stand for nothing, fall for anything. Think about it. What does Hawthorn "stand for" ? Geelong ? Richmond ? Excellence. Team work. Unsociable footy. Ruthlessness. Persistence. Standing up for your team mate. Winning. Busting a gut. All for one, one for all... to simply name a few of the things that these clubs stand for. Our club wants to win and has good intentions the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but being unable to achieve that consistently does not mean we "stand for nothing." When an individual or organisation 'stand for something' you can see it straight away. There's an air of 'don't mess with me or what I stand for, as I will not budge.'

I've never been a Maclure fan. I think he's a moron, just shoots his gob off with zero accountability. 

Sorry Baggers, but they sound like quotes from Anthony Robbins. All professional sporting clubs want to win and be successful. The ones that don't simply aren't good enough, for many on field and off field reasons. Success or failure has nothing to do with standing for something. We were able to buy the best players available back in the day - wonder how ? Maybe that was the single greatest contributor to our success, rather than "standing for something".

I've never been a Maclure fan. I think he's a moron, just shoots his gob off with zero accountability. 

That much is obvious ...

EDIT - I've always loved sellers and since when should he be held accountable for commentary on all things football?   Very odd statement

How would we go with someone like Gary Ayers sitting in the box and being an advisor / mentor?? Experienced, successful and no real threat for the big job??  Even Justin Leppisch??  Hard edge, been with successful clubs and has a few clues about the caper and also not interested in the ‘big job’.  We need a tough hardened  support mechanism that obviously isn’t there at the moment.....

I dont think its tactical problem all the time, our problems are skills related IMO. Our blokes can't hit targets properly  anywhere near regularly enough and we are deplorable in front of goal. Fix these two areas and I will guarantee you we will win more than we lose. I don't want to harp on this but Melb got Williams in and he has fixed their kicking virtually over night. We need a similar person and we need a fwd line coach who was a successful fwd. Find these two specialist people (and may be an NRL tacking coach) and fark off 2 or 3 of the bozos we have now.

John Barker, to use but one example, has been with the Club since 2011. A decade. And a decade of misery (finals in 2013?)

He was a key forward, or arguably the 3rd tall at the Dawks. Talented player no question.

In 2020, he was anointed the  "midfield and stoppages coach. "

Why?

What bunch of clowns would make a former key forward a midfield and stoppage coach?

While I am no great fan of John "Geez he's a nice guy" Barker, I'm not sure that this obsession that fans have of coaches having to coach the position they played is the right one??    Are we saying Barker hasnt learned any new skills, in 15 years, since he played at CHF??  He is now only valuable teaching forwards?  He hasnt picked up a thing or 2 about the rest of the ground in 15 years involved in the coaching group?

The same thing is said of all coaches - "If Josh Fraser coached the 1s, the ruckmen would be great"..... not sure it works that way...

At times it looked like they had 3 or 4 extra players out there...that's how poor our defence and manning up was.

This!!   It was amazing how many times, the ball bounced around in a pack, we picked it up, and then another pack formed... but when, they picked it up, they were off, 3 or blokes in a chain that we had no chance of stopping.  it was chalk and cheese.   we fought so hard for ground, but they were able to make it appear out of nowhere

That much is obvious ...

EDIT - I've always loved sellers and since when should he be held accountable for commentary on all things football?   Very odd statement

Pretty sure he meant Sam not Mark, if not I'll just STFU. But I do agree, how are people in the media with opinions (like those of footy forums) to be held accountable?

CARLTON’S CONCERN

Points against
86.0
Rank 13th

Opp goals per inside 50 %
24.3%
Rank 15th

Points from turnover diff
-9.8
Rank 15th

Opp pts from defensive half
36.2
Rank 14th

D50 to inside 50 %
18.1%
Rank 18th

Pressure factor
169
Rank 18th

Reckon this is the key

Points from turnover diff
-9.8
Rank 15th

As soon as we turn it over, we are fcked - no one chases hard enough, and we dont seem to be properly set up for it

This!!   It was amazing how many times, the ball bounced around in a pack, we picked it up, and then another pack formed... but when, they picked it up, they were off, 3 or blokes in a chain that we had no chance of stopping.  it was chalk and cheese.   we fought so hard for ground, but they were able to make it appear out of nowhere

Simple explanation for that. We do not run both ways. When I say we, my finger is pointing directly at the skipper.

How many times was he running with the ball and had support with him but he did it all himself and.... ultimately turned it over.
So when that happens Cripps man has run off and is free. Whoever was running with cripps has also lost their man. So there is 2 or 3 l
players free from a turnover that shouldn't have happened.

Instead, give off the handball, let a teammate hit a target.  Then go back into your zone ready to go should you lose it from there.

Too many times we had trammates in better position ignored because Cripps tried to do too much and we got busted on the rebound. Not good enough for our captain.

I look at out flag teams of the 80's and 95. Whilst footy is no doubt different there is one tangible imo - the desire to play for each other.
Until we can find a coach and coaching group that get our players to play for each other we will never rise from the ashes. Those teams in the past when they went off the plan of playing for each other they could get beat by anyone - and often did (St Kilda in 95 for example). But they had the maturity to recognise and fix that, and were able to take a good old fashioned bake by the coach.
Recruiting 2 outside runners in the 2 top 10 draft picks doesn't help, but we cant change the playing stocks this year. There is no system or willingness to be hard for their mates. This will spread and inject confidence, rather than this crap of being bruise free then missing easy shots which spreads frustration and is confidence sapping. For players and supporters!

Coaches can't get players to play for each other. They can encourage it as much as possible but in the end the motivation comes from within and that one is on the players. Parko was talking that just a couple for weeks ago. Can tell you that from my experience coaching. 1995 was very player driven after failures the previous 2 years and we drew a line in the sand after an absolute flogging in a practice game. We can only hope the current players draw a line in the sand, much like Geelong did in 2007 when 2-3 after round 5, and do something.

If Maclure genuinely loves the club and thinks he has the answers, then he should stop bleating from the sidelines, and roll up his sleeves and do some real work in helping us out. His whinging, fan boy antics are the journalistic equivalent of bruise free footy.

He's in the media and it is his job to criticise where warranted. That was an article that was very much spot on. Don't let your dislike for the messenger distract you from the message.

Bit hard to go past two dead lasts, isn't it?

D50 to inside 50 %
18.1%
Rank 18th

Pressure factor
169
Rank 18th

He's in the media and it is his job to criticise where warranted. That was an article that was very much spot on. Don't let your dislike for the messenger distract you from the message.

I don't agree, Maclure is making a habit of potting the club in general and piling on the pressure.

You see guys like Matthew Lloyd target specific CheatsFC players, but they do so trying to improve the wider performance of the club, they don't pot the club in general.

Maclure barely has a surface left to add some graffiti!

Further, I have it on good authority that more than once he's scuppered / complicated trade deals by gobbing off to his mates down Sorrento way, he's unofficially known as a trout mouth and it takes very little to get him to regurgitate all he knows! He thinks he is in tight with blokes like Fox and Jess, but they laugh behind his back!

Pretty sure he meant Sam not Mark, if not I'll just STFU. But I do agree, how are people in the media with opinions (like those of footy forums) to be held accountable?

I'm not really a Sam fan, but I was referring to Mark. Sam was on the real footy podcast talking about how our recent form is like Malthouse's last season, i.e no system. He then compared Docherty/Cripps now with Murphy/Gibbs back then - in both instances, he said those players were trying to do too much to help the team, but it was backfiring (like now) and that's why their form has suffered.

EDIT : and don't ever STFU. I like having you around, but your politics could benefit from a little "tweaking." ;D

I'm not really a Sam fan, but I was referring to Mark. Sam was on the real footy podcast talking about how our recent form is like Malthouse's last season, i.e no system. He then compared Docherty/Cripps now with Murphy/Gibbs back then - in both instances, he said those players were trying to do too much to help the team, but it was backfiring (like now) and that's why their form has suffered.

It's possible, but it's wrong to blame those players, the doing too much problem, overdoing it ethic, often comes from those around you doing too little!

You have to forgive the mistakes of those around you, ignore them, and just get on doing what you do well.

For example, I'll take aim at Big H, he kicked 7 a couple of weeks back but quite a few of those are rovers goals. Last weekend he broke a pack just once, and he took opponents to McGovern's contest looking for the cheap jump over the pack mark multiple times. Until Big H starts breaking some more packs, sacrificing when he can't get to the ball, and taking front position to deliver opportunities to our smalls, he won't improve and our team won't improve. We shouldn't need to use Cripps inside F50, but we do because of some of the reasons outlined above.

Contrast that to Levi, he has improved over the last few weeks because he's begun using his physical presence, it means he has an impact even when his form is not good.

It's possible, but it's wrong to blame those players, the doing too much problem, overdoing it ethic, often comes from those around you doing too little!

You have to forgive the mistakes of those around you, ignore them, and just get on doing what you do well.

Yes, maybe. I can imagine getting the balance right between "leading the way" and being selfish or biting off more than you can chew would be very hard to get right. And it would probably change constantly.

Yes, maybe. I can imagine getting the balance right between "leading the way" and being selfish or biting off more than you can chew would be very hard to get right. And it would probably change constantly.

I don't know if it constantly changes, but I do know it takes along time, you have to persist a long time before you see a result, which comes well after trust and confidence is built.

The bit players have to know you've got their back, it's something Malthouse got wrong, he said he had their back then when the crunch came he didn't!

Part of Crippas role as captain is to know each role within the team/team plan and to encourage each player to play his role to the best of his ability, offering real time and off-field advice and support where needed. I think he tends to take on aspects of others' roles in a "if you want the job done well, do it yourself" kind of way. I'm sure he means well in his desire to try and get us over the line off his own boot but that approach is not in the longer term best interests of the team as a whole.

I think he tends to take on aspects of others' roles in a "if you want the job done well, do it yourself" kind of way.

I think we(The Club) did this to him, when we started listening to media and experts that Cripps should be a CHF.

He's a mid-fielder, an inside the contest ball magnet, and we've turned him into a utility.

I'll go further, the only time he looked useful inside F50 to me is when he is at the fall of the ball roving the marking contest. Nobody is going to out mark Levi, Big H and McGovern, and nobody is going to out muscle Cripps. Our smalls should be switched onto this. Several times Cripps gets the ground ball within a wall of opponents and no passing team-mates to offload to, they all hang back! FFS, when the contest is on all Big H has to do is put one of those huge mitts in the air and bring the ball to his feet! Instead more than once you can see the defender get a clear 15m punch away, that should never happen.

I don't agree, Maclure is making a habit of potting the club in general and piling on the pressure.

You see guys like Matthew Lloyd target specific CheatsFC players, but they do so trying to improve the wider performance of the club, they don't pot the club in general.

Maclure barely has a surface left to add some graffiti!

Further, I have it on good authority that more than once he's scuppered / complicated trade deals by gobbing off to his mates down Sorrento way, he's unofficially known as a trout mouth and it takes very little to get him to regurgitate all he knows! He thinks he is in tight with blokes like Fox and Jess, but they laugh behind his back!

Unfortunately, the only thing you could do to the club in 20 years is pot them. Hasn't been alot to praise them about. Whatever anyone thinks of him his article was right on the money.

Coaches can't get players to play for each other. They can encourage it as much as possible but in the end the motivation comes from within and that one is on the players. Parko was talking that just a couple for weeks ago. Can tell you that from my experience coaching. 1995 was very player driven after failures the previous 2 years and we drew a line in the sand after an absolute flogging in a practice game. We can only hope the current players draw a line in the sand, much like Geelong did in 2007 when 2-3 after round 5, and do something.

How may Line in the Sand moments does this club want or need?
We have at least 3 or 4 a year where the players, the club, could say enough is enough.
But.... crickets, because as someone said before we are NICE.
What ever happened to Fudge everyone, We are Carlton?

How many Line in the Sand moments does this club want or need?
We have at least 3 or 4 a year where the players, the club, could say enough is enough.
...........................................................

I agree. It's not the issue in my view. If we have spent 20 years turning over hundreds of players, all of whom need a rev up every 5 minutes, then we don't belong in a professional sporting competition.

But as I say, I don't believe it's the issue(s).

How may Line in the Sand moments does this club want or need?
We have at least 3 or 4 a year where the players, the club, could say enough is enough.
But.... crickets, because as someone said before we are NICE.
What ever happened to Fudge everyone, We are Carlton?

Its like Bondi beach in terms of line in the sand games with us and its usually  ends up with the admin burying the coach in the sand. Feck Everyone, We are Carlton might have been a good catch cry in the Elliott era but now we are just a also ran club with nothing to be proud of for the last 20 years except the supporter base who have stuck fat.

How may Line in the Sand moments does this club want or need?
We have at least 3 or 4 a year where the players, the club, could say enough is enough.
But.... crickets, because as someone said before we are NICE.
What ever happened to Fudge everyone, We are Carlton?

We have a to have a serious one at some stage otherwise we just sit around forever disappointed. This one is on the players and playing culture. Question is when will be have a real one, not a pretend one. Club could say enough is enough all day, has to come from the playing group.

Sadly we were better last year when the older players were still a little competitive. This year with a faster longer game our older players show they have played a year too many and are under pressure when disposing the ball.
Missing our 50 game players coming through and taking over too many draft misses even blokes like Kemp who I  don’t have a clue what he even looks like.  No quick fix with this current team skills wise but I played with blokes who smoked, trained half heartedly twice a week, drank on Friday nights but won premierships because they could hit a target 20 feet away and kick it through the goals! Today’s players train 5 night a week from the age of ten and still can’t kick it accurately over 20 feet or handball anywhere but to a teammates feet 🙄

We have a to have a serious one at some stage otherwise we just sit around forever disappointed. This one is on the players and playing culture. Question is when will be have a real one, not a pretend one. Club could say enough is enough all day, has to come from the playing group.

Heard that how many times over the last 20 years? All we do is sack coaches, it will happen again, nothing surer. And I don't agree its on the players. Cultures are set at the top and filtered down. Everyone has to buy in and live it. Any apparent poor culture of the playing is reflective of the President, Board, CEO, Football Manager, etc etc.

Heard that how many times over the last 20 years? All we do is sack coaches, it will happen again, nothing surer. And I don't agree its on the players. Cultures are set at the top and filtered down. Everyone has to buy in and live it. Any apparent poor culture of the playing is reflective of the President, Board, CEO, Football Manager, etc etc.

This one is on the players. Motivation comes from within and ours can't stay motivated for more than a couple of weeks at a time. Club is run pretty well right now. What is needed is real peer pressure to perform. They have to put it on each other. Right now we turn up but don't work. Almost nothing surer we'll win the next couple, even though it's Brisbane, after coping the biggest baking and home truths we've received in years. What happens after that, who knows.

This one is on the players. Motivation comes from within and ours can't stay motivated for more than a couple of weeks at a time. Club is run pretty well right now. What is needed is real peer pressure to perform. They have to put it on each other. Right now we turn up but don't work. Almost nothing surer we'll win the next couple, even though it's Brisbane, after coping the biggest baking and home truths we've received in years. What happens after that, who knows.

A few contradictions there Jim, we turn up but dont work yet we will win the next few? Dont get that logic.
Ill say it again, culture is set from the top down not the bottom up. It's not about motivation, its all about culture, creating and maintaining a ruthless winning one. When CEO, presidents and coaches give the players an out when they speak to the media, that's not a ruthless culture and sets the wrong example for the players. So is our culture bad? I'd guess the answer is not totally. But is it a ruthless winning one? Most definitely not.
There also doesn't seem to be any non negotiables, and with that consequences, at our club. If there were, we would not trot out the same roller coaster performances year after year.
Then there are skill/execution problems. Ill say this again also, for how many years have we been seeing the same poor skills with disposal and goal kicking? Lots. And we seem to do nothing to address the specific problems (ie bring in specialists to fix the specific issues). If you ask me are out players motivated, I'd say they are as motivated as any player in the comp. Are they well trained and conditioned? I'd say not as well as they could or should be.

It's quite possible that Teague's mother-in-law issues affected not just the coach, but the players as well, which may partly explain why they were off against Port.

I do love the change of narrative though. Under Bolton, the coach was the source of all evil. Now, according to the great Mark Maclure, it's got nothing to do with Teague, it's all on the players. Nice. It warms my heart to see goalposts can be moved so easily. I too, may one day get to experience the unbridled pleasure that comes from such a manoeuvre.

I agree. It's not the issue in my view. If we have spent 20 years turning over hundreds of players, all of whom need a rev up every 5 minutes, then we don't belong in a professional sporting competition.

Culture.

And who is responsible for building, improving and maintaining culture?

As just one example, look at the Fluffy Ducks. What they stand for; their culture is unmistakable. Newbies come in and lift to the standards expected. In some respects, the very antithesis of us.

The one constant in all of this is the way our players are so poorly prepared and drilled,  for want of a better term. Suggests that we don't have anywhere near a capable and effective enough system in place to do this. We desperately need to fix it and improve our recruiting  if we are ever to get out of the doldrums. The Swans for one seem pretty good in this area.

The players go through the motions, because they know, as soon as it gets hard, the coach will be sacked and it wont matter what they do anyway.

If you have value, you will be shipped off for a high draft pick.

If you are a high draft pick you will get games no matter how poorly you play.

If you are a battler, you will get dropped the first sign of a form dip.

If you play poorly, the coach will cop it in the neck and the whipping boys will wear the fallout for your inability to perform your role, irrespective of how much time someone like Plowman spends covering up someone elses mistakes. 

Players develop in spite of us not because of us, and most players fail to develop because of us.

Rinse, repeat. 


THIS is the mantra of the Carlton footy club.  22 years later, THIS is what we stand for.

The players go through the motions, because they know, as soon as it gets hard, the coach will be sacked and it wont matter what they do anyway.

If you have value, you will be shipped off for a high draft pick.

If you are a high draft pick you will get games no matter how poorly you play.

If you are a battler, you will get dropped the first sign of a form dip.

If you play poorly, the coach will cop it in the neck and the whipping boys will wear the fallout for your inability to perform your role, irrespective of how much time someone like Plowman spends covering up someone elses mistakes. 

Players develop in spite of us not because of us, and most players fail to develop because of us.

Rinse, repeat. 


THIS is the mantra of the Carlton footy club.  22 years later, THIS is what we stand for.

So given that vicious circle....what's the answer?
Because if nothing changes...nothing changes

Sorry Baggers, but they sound like quotes from Anthony Robbins. All professional sporting clubs want to win and be successful. The ones that don't simply aren't good enough, for many on field and off field reasons. Success or failure has nothing to do with standing for something. We were able to buy the best players available back in the day - wonder how ? Maybe that was the single greatest contributor to our success, rather than "standing for something".

Ouch, probably no greater insult than to liken me to Anthony Robbins.

Unlike Robbins, in my work when I work with my clients on such things as, say, excellence... we pull it apart to see what it means to them - then I stick around to help with the 'fallout' of change... very  unlike Robbins.

So given that vicious circle....what's the answer?
Because if nothing changes...nothing changes

I have formed an opinion of why nothing changes, and its not because nothing changes, its because too many changes.

I work in IT.

When we face one particular issue, the worst thing you can do, is change multiple things at once without knowing precisely what reaction you are going to have.

You need to work through the issue systematically starting with a root cause analysis.

Then you start fixing what you have perceived the issue is, starting with some of the most basic and fundamental changes and working your way down the list.

The scorched earth policy is the last resort of the IT worker *this is a wipe and reinstallation of whatever you are doing from the beginning, or a replacement of said system/device*.

We started with scorched earth and are trying to get a system online and are having people complain that its not working yet when we have barely even begun (for reference see noise re teague and ability to coach).

I don't agree, Maclure is making a habit of potting the club in general and piling on the pressure.

You see guys like Matthew Lloyd target specific CheatsFC players, but they do so trying to improve the wider performance of the club, they don't pot the club in general.

Maclure barely has a surface left to add some graffiti!

Further, I have it on good authority that more than once he's scuppered / complicated trade deals by gobbing off to his mates down Sorrento way, he's unofficially known as a trout mouth and it takes very little to get him to regurgitate all he knows! He thinks he is in tight with blokes like Fox and Jess, but they laugh behind his back!

Ah, Spotted One. It is so very important to separate the message from the messenger. Shouldn't matter if Sellers pulls the wings off butterflies... if his opinions on something have a strong element of truth and many resonate with that truth, then that is all that matters. Thought I do feel for the butterflies.

Ouch, probably no greater insult than to liken me to Anthony Robbins.

Unlike Robbins, in my work when I work with my clients on such things as, say, excellence... we pull it apart to see what it means to them - then I stick around to help with the 'fallout' of change... very  unlike Robbins.

Apologies for the Robbins reference. That was unnecessary. I have a real problem with buzzwords, because I think they can mean different things to different people, and left unresolved and unchecked, they cause more problems than they solve. We have no idea what happens behind the scenes. We have no idea whether Teague or anyone else demands ruthlessness, persistence, team work etc. Sure, I can look up 20 different dictionary definitions of such words, but how do they manifest themselves in actions ?

The players go through the motions, because they know, as soon as it gets hard, the coach will be sacked and it wont matter what they do anyway.

If you have value, you will be shipped off for a high draft pick.

If you are a high draft pick you will get games no matter how poorly you play.

If you are a battler, you will get dropped the first sign of a form dip.

If you play poorly, the coach will cop it in the neck and the whipping boys will wear the fallout for your inability to perform your role, irrespective of how much time someone like Plowman spends covering up someone elses mistakes. 

Players develop in spite of us not because of us, and most players fail to develop because of us.

Rinse, repeat. 

THIS is the mantra of the Carlton footy club.  22 years later, THIS is what we stand for.

It's a major worry if, after 6000 players in and out, we still draft and trade players who pick and choose. SOS picked a fair few players on our list, and if he, of all people, can't recognise blokes who will play for the jumper and put in 100%, then we really should hand our licence back to the AFL, and just relive the glory days over and over. If what you say is true, we are really just wasting our time. I don't believe it's true.

Culture.

And who is responsible for building, improving and maintaining culture?

As just one example, look at the Fluffy Ducks. What they stand for; their culture is unmistakable. Newbies come in and lift to the standards expected. In some respects, the very antithesis of us.

The Swans spent 72 years in AFL/VFL no man's land, were basically on their knees for ages, and only survived  because the AFL made a nice Faustian pact with them : move to Sydney or die. They have their stuff together now, but whether it's luck or design, who really knows ? It was an incredibly long road for them, and it may be for us as well. Who the hell knows what makes clubs successful ? The clubs themselves don't seem to, that's for sure.

I have formed an opinion of why nothing changes, and its not because nothing changes, its because too many changes.

I work in IT.

When we face one particular issue, the worst thing you can do, is change multiple things at once without knowing precisely what reaction you are going to have.

You need to work through the issue systematically starting with a root cause analysis.

Then you start fixing what you have perceived the issue is, starting with some of the most basic and fundamental changes and working your way down the list.

The scorched earth policy is the last resort of the IT worker *this is a wipe and reinstallation of whatever you are doing from the beginning, or a replacement of said system/device*.

We started with scorched earth and are trying to get a system online and are having people complain that its not working yet when we have barely even begun (for reference see noise re teague and ability to coach).

I've always argued that we should never have gone down the 'rebuild' track.
Stupid, stupid idea that was never guaranteed to be successful.
We're virtually back to where we were at the start of 2015, before we started this journey.
But that's history now and we're committed to this path.
Probably shouldn't call it a rebuild anymore though.


The problem is we see clubs like Brisbane who just a few years ago were in a similar bottom position to where we found ourselves and have quickly bought themselves back to a more than competitive level.

IT may give us a good example of process.
But it lacks one key element and that's the emotional factor.
Folks aren't upset  at just this season.
They're upset at the last 20 years.

Why are some more impatient?
Well folks around my age can't afford another 20 years....we're likely to not be around.
Maybe that's an emotional response....but emotion is the heart of this game.

It's a major worry if, after 6000 players in and out, we still draft and trade players who pick and choose. SOS picked a fair few players on our list, and if he, of all people, can't recognise blokes who will play for the jumper and put in 100%, then we really should hand our licence back to the AFL, and just relive the glory days over and over. If what you say is true, we are really just wasting our time. I don't believe it's true.

Cottrell is getting a game because he puts in, couldn't get a kick at U18 level, think that tells  a story about some of our other higher fancied draftees.
Robbins is a sleazy salesman, his books are a waste of money and are over hyped like his cheesy smile and personality.

@Lods

Lods, I don't think a rebuild per se is necessarily a problem. The key is to make sure you have the right people, processes and organization to do it properly.

Cottrell is getting a game because he puts in, couldn't get a kick at U18 level, think that tells  a story about some of our other higher fancied draftees.
Robbins is a sleazy salesman, his books are a waste of money and are over hyped like his cheesy smile and personality.

He was used primarily as a tagger in juniors but under AFL directions tagging and zones isn't a feature of play because they want more one on one contests. This leaves a lot of good footballers unable to make use of natural aerobic capacity. So it's a bit unfair to comment on his U18s form.

There is a bit of discussion on the Jim Parks Medal site about me believing Docherty was our best player. I am not sure that is the site we should be having those discussions. As far as I am concerned on that site it is show your cards then read them and weep.
If you check the stats and look at number of possessions and meters gained, Docherty is up there but that is not how I judge a game. I try and look at how a player plays within the context of the game. As far as I was concerned the ability of Port Adelaide to win the ball from our poor ball use going forward, decision making and lack of teaming, combined with their skills meant that the defence was under constant pressure and considering Jones, Williamson and SPS had shockers down back, the hard work of effective defending  to keep us in the game was down to Saad, Docherty, Weitering and Plowman and while Weitering got better as the game went along, I thought Docherty was the one who was always the last line of defence, putting his body on the line and playing a Captain's and team game.
I mark Walsh down because in my view, even though he gets a lot of the ball and he is very clean and his ball use is pretty good, I don't see him bringing others into the game or impacting by changing the direction of the game with the possessions he gets. I believe he has the capacity to do both of those things but he is yet to do it.
This is the last time I will explain myself.

There is a bit of discussion on the Jim Parks Medal site about me believing Docherty was our best player. I am not sure that is the site we should be having those discussions. As far as I am concerned on that site it is show your cards then read them and weep.
If you check the stats and look at number of possessions and meters gained, Docherty is up there but that is not how I judge a game. I try and look at how a player plays within the context of the game. As far as I was concerned the ability of Port Adelaide to win the ball from our poor ball use going forward, decision making and lack of teaming, combined with their skills meant that the defence was under constant pressure and considering Jones, Williamson and SPS had shockers down back, the hard work of effective defending  to keep us in the game was down to Saad, Docherty, Weitering and Plowman and while Weitering got better as the game went along, I thought Docherty was the one who was always the last line of defence, putting his body on the line and playing a Captain's and team game.
I mark Walsh down because in my view, even though he gets a lot of the ball and he is very clean and his ball use is pretty good, I don't see him bringing others into the game or impacting by changing the direction of the game with the possessions he gets. I believe he has the capacity to do both of those things but he is yet to do it.
This is the last time I will explain myself.

It's OK @Blue Moon‍ , we are all allowed an opinion.

Fwiw I thought Doc was OK as well, his clangers didn't negate his overall effort. We were never in that game, Port controlled the narrative from the 1st to last second, fans write commentary about Doc like he sold the farm, hardly!

When Dixon cleaned up Doc, and he did so at least twice when Doc put his body on the line, that triggers those later fumbles you've got a player sore and nervous. Instead of turning on Doc, fans should be asking how Doc's team-mates let the Dixon stuff happen, who jumped out of the way and didn't have Doc's back! Who didn't even up the ledger!

Apologies for the Robbins reference. That was unnecessary. I have a real problem with buzzwords, because I think they can mean different things to different people, and left unresolved and unchecked, they cause more problems than they solve. We have no idea what happens behind the scenes. We have no idea whether Teague or anyone else demands ruthlessness, persistence, team work etc. Sure, I can look up 20 different dictionary definitions of such words, but how do they manifest themselves in actions ?

Believe me, Pauly, I also do not like buzzwords - trite, shallow and lazy where meaningful, substantial and strong change is required. But then I deal with people and life at a deeper level than motivation seminars as the cure all - and that's where I find Robbins dangerous, thinking that 'positive thinking' will magically cure certain mental health issues. An expensive week or w/e of ra ra for everyday folks is fine, as long as you don't expect lasting benefits - maybe 1% will get a lasting benefit but the rest were just entertained by a charismatic, well-meaning performer for an exorbitant price.

That's why when I work with folks and if a 'buzzword' is used, we then flesh it out, give it substance and what it means to the client, not me, and how it will impact their lives for the better and what it will take to implement such a change, and very importantly, how to manage the problems inevitably caused by and associated with the change.

And if I could segway this into our club... buzzwords... We've belched buzzwords and cliches for two decades now. As I've said previously, we talk the talk, but fail to walk the talk. And that's about powerful leadership... our void. When you have a leadership void, well, you get what we've got.

No, we do not need to level the place and start again. But we do need to be honest with ourselves that strong, ruthless leadership is required to enforce the 'buzzwords', to give them substance to create a Fluffy Ducks kind of culture that can be passed from generation to generation.

People who think that the Pussy Cats and Tiggers and Dawks turned around their fortunes with a buzzword, or persisting with what was failing -- because success would be inevitable -- are kidding themselves. The things that went on behind the scenes at those 3 clubs were really quite honest and brutal. Didn't need to change an enormous amount in terms of personnel (on and off the field), just a ruthless, systematic and honest analysis of the failure attitudes and how to destroy them and then do what was necessary to institute change. And it started with Presidents/Boards and their thorough honesty and boldness and vision to force change. Our opponents this Saturday did it a few years back, around the same time as us, and look at their culture now!

It's a major worry if, after 6000 players in and out, we still draft and trade players who pick and choose. SOS picked a fair few players on our list, and if he, of all people, can't recognise blokes who will play for the jumper and put in 100%, then we really should hand our licence back to the AFL, and just relive the glory days over and over. If what you say is true, we are really just wasting our time. I don't believe it's true.

What point are you arguing here Paulp?

I have just outlined why the culture of the place is rotten , and you don't believe a word of it, yet the post itself is a summary of how the Carlton Football Club has performed its business since the year 2001.  We are still unable to exorcise the demons and behave the same way and I hear the fans saying it too "we are not a club to be feared anymore" is the line rolled out on these very forums, yet the reason why that is, is a cause and effect of our whole of club approach and that's what causes players not to buy in.

We have won more wooden spoons and had more high draft picks than almost any other team in the competition and still look much the same every week.  A haphazard approach to playing footy.

The repetition of that cycle causes what LP labels pavlov's dogs.  He points to the kids as being developed that way through adversity by the approach and to a degree he has nailed that.  The club is the one that is placing them in the position of adversity.  The thing is, it isn't restricted to the kids.  Its even affecting a guy like Cripps now.  Its like quicksand.  It eventually drags everyone down to a certain level.

There is a bit of discussion on the Jim Parks Medal site about me believing Docherty was our best player. I am not sure that is the site we should be having those discussions. As far as I am concerned on that site it is show your cards then read them and weep.
If you check the stats and look at number of possessions and meters gained, Docherty is up there but that is not how I judge a game. I try and look at how a player plays within the context of the game. As far as I was concerned the ability of Port Adelaide to win the ball from our poor ball use going forward, decision making and lack of teaming, combined with their skills meant that the defence was under constant pressure and considering Jones, Williamson and SPS had shockers down back, the hard work of effective defending  to keep us in the game was down to Saad, Docherty, Weitering and Plowman and while Weitering got better as the game went along, I thought Docherty was the one who was always the last line of defence, putting his body on the line and playing a Captain's and team game.
I mark Walsh down because in my view, even though he gets a lot of the ball and he is very clean and his ball use is pretty good, I don't see him bringing others into the game or impacting by changing the direction of the game with the possessions he gets. I believe he has the capacity to do both of those things but he is yet to do it.
This is the last time I will explain myself.

Doc has also been getting better, each week, this year.  I think we can cut him some slack, after so long off.

I agree, he does make the odd howler, that stand out for all to see, but, geez he puts in, and is generally in the exact right position

He was used primarily as a tagger in juniors but under AFL directions tagging and zones isn't a feature of play because they want more one on one contests. This leaves a lot of good footballers unable to make use of natural aerobic capacity. So it's a bit unfair to comment on his U18s form.

I watched a bit of him at U18 level and he was hardly a standout even with his tagging, had a very ordinary final too and
I doubt too many teams would have had him on their radar so thats probably a tick for SOS.
The point of my post is a unheralded battler is getting preferred over some very fancied high picks because he works his ar$e off and will give you 100% every time he fronts up and that is great but in reality tells a tale of where we are.

What point are you arguing here Paulp?

I have just outlined why the culture of the place is rotten , and you don't believe a word of it, yet the post itself is a summary of how the Carlton Football Club has performed its business since the year 2001.  We are still unable to exorcise the demons and behave the same way and I hear the fans saying it too "we are not a club to be feared anymore" is the line rolled out on these very forums, yet the reason why that is, is a cause and effect of our whole of club approach and that's what causes players not to buy in.

We have won more wooden spoons and had more high draft picks than almost any other team in the competition and still look much the same every week.  A haphazard approach to playing footy.

The repetition of that cycle causes what LP labels pavlov's dogs.  He points to the kids as being developed that way through adversity by the approach and to a degree he has nailed that.  The club is the one that is placing them in the position of adversity.  The thing is, it isn't restricted to the kids.  Its even affecting a guy like Cripps now.  Its like quicksand.  It eventually drags everyone down to a certain level.

Your point, as I understand it, is that our players pick and choose, or give up easily, and they have done so for 20 years. If this is true, then they are either born that way or made that way. If they are born that way, and we continue to select those types, then we have a problem. If they are made to become like that, because of things inside the 4 walls at Ikon Park, then we have a huge, massive problem, and we are not fit to be called a professional sporting club.

The point of my post is a unheralded battler is getting preferred over some very fancied high picks because he works his ar$e off and will give you 100% every time he fronts up and that is great but in reality tells a tale of where we are.

He'll be fine, he could even be leadership material long term, not just at the level of looks but at a game day level he is not too dissimilar to the early Mitch Robinson who now has two B&Fs, or even Liam Jones who looked to have all the ability but was lost early in his career!

Every club needs a few foot soldiers, the ones who crack in no matter what the order!

When we start regularly getting the best out of these guys, we are probably on the right track!

......................................
People who think that the Pussy Cats and Tiggers and Dawks turned around their fortunes with a buzzword, or persisting with what was failing -- because success would be inevitable -- are kidding themselves. The things that went on behind the scenes at those 3 clubs were really quite honest and brutal. Didn't need to change an enormous amount in terms of personnel (on and off the field), just a ruthless, systematic and honest analysis of the failure attitudes and how to destroy them and then do what was necessary to institute change. And it started with Presidents/Boards and their thorough honesty and boldness and vision to force change. Our opponents this Saturday did it a few years back, around the same time as us, and look at their culture now!

Well, this post highlights words that make me nervous, words like : honest, brutal, ruthless. systematic, boldness. Giving a dictionary definition is easy enough, but how do they work in the real world ? How do you know the club isn't being honest, brutal, ruthless. systematic, or bold ? Maybe they're trying all that, and we just simply aren't good enough ? Maybe what we need is simply to be good at our job, which means being professional and competent ?

The Swans held on to Alex Johnson for an eternity - is this a lack of ruthlessness ? Robert Walls (aka Secret Agent 42) won the GF in '87, finished 3rd in '88 and was given the ar$e. Is that brutal, is it ruthless, is it bold ? Beveridge won the flag in 2016, then missed finals in2017, 18 and 19. Was it a lack of ruthlessness that meant he stayed on ? What would Carlton have done ? What about sacking Bolton ? Was it honest on the Board's part to deflect deeper problems and attention away from them ? At what point do they say sacking coaches hasn't worked and we need to look elsewhere ? Maybe boldness and strength come from not capitulating to the media and same old same old, and doing something really different ?

I could go on, but I think I've given a sufficient idea of where I'm coming from.

Your point, as I understand it, is that our players pick and choose, or give up easily, and they have done so for 20 years. If this is true, then they are either born that way or made that way. If they are born that way, and we continue to select those types, then we have a problem. If they are made to become like that, because of things inside the 4 walls at Ikon Park, then we have a huge, massive problem, and we are not fit to be called a professional sporting club.

Your second part is closer to the point I am making.

We don't look like a professional organisation that knows what's it doing and has changed strategy too much and the on field reflects that.

Teague is under pressure.  Barring a remarkable turn of fortune with our infirmary and results he is likely to be given the Sars by round 10.  I see only one match that should be a victory at the moment vs essendon and some brave defeats.

History tells me the coach is already cooked.  If I can see it, I wonder what's currently happening in club land??

Well, this post highlights words that make me nervous, words like : honest, brutal, ruthless. systematic, boldness. Giving a dictionary definition is easy enough, but how do they work in the real world ? How do you know the club isn't being honest, brutal, ruthless. systematic, or bold ? Maybe they're trying all that, and we just simply aren't good enough ? Maybe what we need is simply to be good at our job, which means being professional and competent ?

The Swans held on to Alex Johnson for an eternity - is this a lack of ruthlessness ? Robert Walls (aka Secret Agent 42) won the GF in '87, finished 3rd in '88 and was given the ar$e. Is that brutal, is it ruthless, is it bold ? Beveridge won the flag in 2016, then missed finals in2017, 18 and 19. Was it a lack of ruthlessness that meant he stayed on ? What would Carlton have done ? What about sacking Bolton ? Was it honest on the Board's part to deflect deeper problems and attention away from them ? At what point do they say sacking coaches hasn't worked and we need to look elsewhere ? Maybe boldness and strength come from not capitulating to the media and same old same old, and doing something really different ?

I could go on, but I think I've given a sufficient idea of where I'm coming from.

I think you'll find the answers to your questions in watching us play. Inconsistent and nice. Failing to develop like other clubs. Inability to sustain hardness... or anything, actually (except niceness). Folding under opposition sustained pressure. Jogging from contest to contest, little urgency. Tall forwards colliding or getting in each other's way. Team mate being mauled and nobody comes to fly the flag. Skipper trying to take on the world - undisciplined.

Wallsy admitted he deserved the flick due to 'losing the plot' and losing the players. Sellers understood getting the sack and has spoken of his respect for the decision, might not have liked it, but he understood that was the Carlton way and respected it without holding any hard feelings. Almost ironically, under BB the club was quite united... similar to under Ratts. But he just couldn't win games. At least Ratts could win games! And, yes, I understand that these two had very different lists and very different agendas - BB was to rebuild, Ratts to win a GF. But both did enjoy a short period of coach / player unity.

Sometimes seemingly huge problems are simple and right under your shnezzola. Everything at the club might just be too cozy, too modern and shmicko, too catering to entitlement. Not enough hurt or discomfort or investment in winning even if it means hurting... that's where an uncompromising ruthless attitude is needed AND if persisted with, will change culture... for starters it'll weed out the non-hackers.

Your second part is closer to the point I am making.

We don't look like a professional organisation that knows what's it doing and has changed strategy too much and the on field reflects that.

Teague is under pressure.  Barring a remarkable turn of fortune with our infirmary and results he is likely to be given the Sars by round 10.  I see only one match that should be a victory at the moment vs essendon and some brave defeats.

History tells me the coach is already cooked.  If I can see it, I wonder what's currently happening in club land??

Even with our terrible recent history, I can't see the club sacking Teague before the end of the year. They would, at a minimum, be waiting until the 2nd half of the year when we get some better players back.

Certainly agree with the bit in bold.

Even with our terrible recent history, I can't see the club sacking Teague before the end of the year. They would, at a minimum, be waiting until the 2nd half of the year when we get some better players back.

Certainly agree with the bit in bold.

As much as I would normally agree, I actually think that this outcome isnt only possible, but somehow likely to occur and all it will take is an unexpected loss to Essendon for it to happen.

Look at our injury list, and when you do I want you to consider that Docherty, Williams, Cripps and Saad all seem to be carrying knocks that are reducing their ability to impact games for 4 quarters.  Levi hasnt and doesnt look fit.  Mcgovern isnt and doesnt look fit.

we are one Weitering or Walsh injury away from falling away completely competitively.

Then you look at our club, and just know that someone who is a former poker king is already orchestrating some grandious manoever to try and attract Clarkson to the club.

Do you really think we wouldn't sack Teague?

Round 6
Carlton vs Brisbane

Round 7
Essendon vs Carlton

Round 8
Western bulldogs vs Carlton

Round 9
Melbourne vs Carlton

Round 10
Carlton vs Hawthorn

Round 11
Sydney vs Carlton

Round 12
Carlton vs West Coast

Round 13 the bye

Round 14
GWS vs Carlton

Round 15
Carlton vs Adelaide

Round 16
Freo vs Carlton

Round 17
Carlton vs Geelong

Round 18
Collingwood vs Carlton

Round 19
Carlton vs North

Round 20
St. Kilda vs Carlton

Round 21
Carlton vs Gold Coast

Round 22
Port Adelaide vs Carlton

Round 23
Carlton vs GWS


I would ordinarily have put these games in bold down as games we can and should win, but on recent form, and our injury list, but the form line doesnt lend weight to this being the case.

I pinpoint the North Melbourne game as a relatively do or die match with us not having secured 8 wins by then, and if history is a guide its the one that will roll the coach. 

Unless Liddle has a different way of doing things of course or our club is truly invested as Teague as coach.  NOTE:  This might still be the correct course of action.  The fact that the riot act was read to some players after our loss to Collingwood and it was our newbies that did it is just one more reason to get a bit concerned about us really.  

Mcgovern isnt and doesnt look fit.

Not sure where that comes from after the last game, he's as lean as he has been at Carlton, and moved pretty well. Looked rusty, but that is far from being unfit.

Believe me, Pauly, I also do not like buzzwords - trite, shallow and lazy where meaningful, substantial and strong change is required. But then I deal with people and life at a deeper level than motivation seminars as the cure all - and that's where I find Robbins dangerous, thinking that 'positive thinking' will magically cure certain mental health issues. An expensive week or w/e of ra ra for everyday folks is fine, as long as you don't expect lasting benefits - maybe 1% will get a lasting benefit but the rest were just entertained by a charismatic, well-meaning performer for an exorbitant price.

That's why when I work with folks and if a 'buzzword' is used, we then flesh it out, give it substance and what it means to the client, not me, and how it will impact their lives for the better and what it will take to implement such a change, and very importantly, how to manage the problems inevitably caused by and associated with the change.

And if I could segway this into our club... buzzwords... We've belched buzzwords and cliches for two decades now. As I've said previously, we talk the talk, but fail to walk the talk. And that's about powerful leadership... our void. When you have a leadership void, well, you get what we've got.

No, we do not need to level the place and start again. But we do need to be honest with ourselves that strong, ruthless leadership is required to enforce the 'buzzwords', to give them substance to create a Fluffy Ducks kind of culture that can be passed from generation to generation.

People who think that the Pussy Cats and Tiggers and Dawks turned around their fortunes with a buzzword, or persisting with what was failing -- because success would be inevitable -- are kidding themselves. The things that went on behind the scenes at those 3 clubs were really quite honest and brutal. Didn't need to change an enormous amount in terms of personnel (on and off the field), just a ruthless, systematic and honest analysis of the failure attitudes and how to destroy them and then do what was necessary to institute change. And it started with Presidents/Boards and their thorough honesty and boldness and vision to force change. Our opponents this Saturday did it a few years back, around the same time as us, and look at their culture now!

We certainly seem captive to past decisions made by the club commencing early this century.

I am referring to the dreadful mistakes made at the draft table each year.  The Board, even now, seems incapable of understanding that success depends so much on the player list.

In its mistaken belief that the problem lies elsewhere it has  ruined the careers of experienced and relatively inexperienced coaches.  I fear that Teague may be next.

If any of the clubs mentioned - Richmond, Geelong - had shown the same drafting incompetency as we have I'm sure they would be in the same position we are in now.

It is only a few years ago since we were so grateful for SOS getting us the GWS castoffs, and we are still left with a poor list.

As Prof E said in another thread,  we have real problems on every line.  I think the pain will be with us for some time. 

I think you'll find the answers to your questions in watching us play. Inconsistent and nice. Failing to develop like other clubs. Inability to sustain hardness... or anything, actually (except niceness). Folding under opposition sustained pressure. Jogging from contest to contest, little urgency. Tall forwards colliding or getting in each other's way. Team mate being mauled and nobody comes to fly the flag. Skipper trying to take on the world - undisciplined.
.................................................................

How many of these are a result of the Port game, and how many were discussed before ? It seems to me as though few of these were mentioned in the first 4 rounds ?

Also, how many are genuine characterisations over a sample space of several games, as opposed to familiar tropes that pass around the fan base, then somehow become "true", then get reinforced by lazy media, many of whom probably do the bulk of their research on sites like this ?

How many of these are a result of the Port game, and how many were discussed before ? It seems to me as though few of these were mentioned in the first 4 rounds ?

Also, how many are genuine characterisations over a sample space of several games, as opposed to familiar tropes that pass around the fan base, then somehow become "true", then get reinforced by lazy media, many of whom probably do the bulk of their research on sites like this ?

I saw many of those things mentioned in the first 4 games... and for large chunks of last season... and the season before... and the season before...

Here's your mate with some comments re all this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raEGQgG6840

Doesn't mince his words .... and all of them true.

I saw many of those things mentioned in the first 4 games... and for large chunks of last season... and the season before... and the season before...

Here's your mate with some comments re all this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raEGQgG6840

Thanks, but I won't be watching that. If I want my daily dose of lazy, cherry picking shock jock, I have many better choices than him.

I put it to you, my learned colleague, that our issues are far more centred around skill execution, and far less around toughness, niceness, giving up chases, not remonstrating with opponents etc. Improve our general skills, kicking into F50, and the ball movement that leads to that, forward leading pattens, goal kicking and the like, and our position and W/L will improve.

Take our score in the Port game and reverse the G/B. 14.9 instead of 9.14. Naturally the naysayers will say the scoreline flattered us etc., but I say that's only because we can't kick straight. It's not like they had twice the tackles, twice the I50's, twice the marks inside 50, half the turnovers etc. They were fast, clean and kicked straight, and we were the opposite.

Take our score in the Port game and reverse the G/B. 14.9 instead of 9.14. Naturally the naysayers will say the scoreline flattered us etc., but I say that's only because we can't kick straight. It's not like they had twice the tackles, twice the I50's, twice the marks inside 50, half the turnovers etc. They were fast, clean and kicked straight, and we were the opposite.

We are the easiest side to play against because of our lack of pressure.

So who should we bring in to be leader of the playing group.? A golden opportunity for some hard nosed uncompromising bastard.

Mark Maclure has come a long way since the 70's-80s.  I can remember when the Carlton mob under the Press Box (before it was torn down) used to call him 'Concrete Head'.

But what he says is spot on.  He played in Carlton sides that always turned up and never shirked an issue.

Can't say I've consistently seen it from the current crop - although I have seen enough to say they are capable of it (which makes it even more galling when they play like teddy bears).

I'm not at all sure what the scoreboard will say against Brisbane, but it better not be for want of effort!

Give me a bunch of ratbags and you can build a team, we have a bunch of nice guys, the coach is a nice guy......
Its not the coaches fault its the players...so Teague stays and some players go...integrity of selection is horrible.
Some Players are non competitive, soft and poorly skilled and thats the bottom line from Sellars.
Those players have to go...and guess what MaClure is right, Teague stays and some players have to go including his mates and he has to get a lot tougher or he will be next.

We are the easiest side to play against because of our lack of pressure.

Spot on.....Pressure vs Soft and Lazy
How can you expect to be a pressure team when players wont chase, tackle and shirk contests.
You add poor skills when we do have the ball and under pressure those skills become horrible...thats us

We are the easiest side to play against because of our lack of pressure.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this has been your opinion for about 10 years ?

Thanks, but I won't be watching that. If I want my daily dose of lazy, cherry picking shock jock, I have many better choices than him.

I put it to you, my learned colleague, that our issues are far more centred around skill execution, and far less around toughness, niceness, giving up chases, not remonstrating with opponents etc. Improve our general skills, kicking into F50, and the ball movement that leads to that, forward leading pattens, goal kicking and the like, and our position and W/L will improve.

Take the time to watch McClure.  You obviously do not like him but I doubt you would find much to criticise.

With regard to skill execution, we lag far behind opposition clubs because (a) we specialise in recruiting players with poor skills, and (b) we make no effort to improve what limited ability they have.

It has been that way for years and our solution seems to be to change the coach every few years.

Take the time to watch McClure.  You obviously do not like him but I doubt you would find much to criticise.

With regard to skill execution, we lag far behind opposition clubs because (a) we specialise in recruiting players with poor skills, and (b) we make no effort to improve what limited ability they have.

It has been that way for years and our solution seems to be to change the coach every few years.

The other problem is some of the other players with good skills dont like the hard stuff, we dont have enough players
with both the skills and the intensity to do the hard stuff to win a game.
Players like Walsh and Saad standout like Dogs balls because they give you both requirements, Williams if he can get fit is probably another. You look at Richmond and its hard to find a non competitive player with poor skills.

Take the time to watch McClure.  You obviously do not like him but I doubt you would find much to criticise.

With regard to skill execution, we lag far behind opposition clubs because (a) we specialise in recruiting players with poor skills, and (b) we make no effort to improve what limited ability they have.

It has been that way for years and our solution seems to be to change the coach every few years.

I don't have Foxtel, but there is plenty of AFL 360 etc. on Youtube. I've watched enough to know there's no need to waste any more time. I should add that my issues are not just Maclure, but most of his ilk and the Murdoch media in general. The way they operate is by now well known and understood for those who take an interest.

I generally agree with the bit in bold.

We've been smashed on all the footy shows this week.

The common themes are Recruitment, Development and Effort.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this has been your opinion for about 10 years ?

David King said it about 4 years ago and had the data to back it up, I'm just rehashing what he said. Everyone wants to play a certain way and the opposition's pressure is what is getting in the way of that. We are consistently a poor pressure side and this year rank last. If you play a team of equal talent and they provide significantly more pressure than you how are you supposed to win?

Take our score in the Port game and reverse the G/B. 14.9 instead of 9.14. Naturally the naysayers will say the scoreline flattered us etc., but I say that's only because we can't kick straight. It's not like they had twice the tackles, twice the I50's, twice the marks inside 50, half the turnovers etc. They were fast, clean and kicked straight, and we were the opposite.

Now Pauly, that is 'what if' thinking. Reality is if one of those points of ours is a goal, it goes back to the centre and a different game commences.

And please do watch what Sellers has to say... it sure aint lazy. What comes across is hurt, not sensationalism, not shock jock, not shallow... but real McCoy hurt that a club he loves so much is floundering so badly. And his solution suggestions have serious merit.

We've been smashed on all the footy shows this week.

The common themes are Recruitment, Development and Effort.

I assume no further effort is required to kick 14.9 than to kick 9.14 ?

I'm not suggesting everything is hunky dory, nor am I suggesting we don't have plenty to work on, but all this sky-is-falling stuff is IMO premature, not really backed up by the last 15,20 games and for a trigger happy club like the CFC, is virtually guaranteed to lead us into trouble.

David King said it about 4 years ago and had the data to back it up, I'm just rehashing what he said. Everyone wants to play a certain way and the opposition's pressure is what is getting in the way of that. We are consistently a poor pressure side and this year rank last. If you play a team of equal talent and they provide significantly more pressure than you how are you supposed to win?

Kicking straight is probably a good start. In 4 years we have had 2 coaches and about ?? 30,40 list changes. Those two coaches seem, if not diametrically opposed, then certainly very different. How do we address this pressure issue ? Because I'll be buggered if I know. Coach and list changes don't seem to help.

I assume no further effort is required to kick 14.9 than to kick 9.14 ?

I'm not suggesting everything is hunky dory, nor am I suggesting we don't have plenty to work on, but all this sky-is-falling stuff is IMO premature, not really backed up by the last 15,20 games and for a trigger happy club like the CFC, is virtually guaranteed to lead us into trouble.

Paul...Premature??...think Sellars time frame was 20 years wasnt it?
re: Stats...Richmond often lose a lot of the main stats in home and away games and still win Premierships.
IMHO Port played a gear down and only did what they had to do given they only had 20 fit players to rotate.....last time we lost by one kick to them, if you want to argue stats they beat us by 4-5 goals this time, how is that progress? Does that mean Port have improved more than us or we have gone backwards?

Now Pauly, that is 'what if' thinking. Reality is if one of those points of ours is a goal, it goes back to the centre and a different game commences.

And please do watch what Sellers has to say... it sure aint lazy. What comes across is hurt, not sensationalism, not shock jock, not shallow... but real McCoy hurt that a club he loves so much is floundering so badly. And his solution suggestions have serious merit.

Agreed Baggers, that wasnt a rant by any stretch, he is hurting like many other who have spilt blood for the club.

Paul...Premature??...think Sellars time frame was 20 years wasnt it?
re: Stats...Richmond often lose a lot of the main stats in home and away games and still win Premierships.
IMHO Port played a gear down and only did what they had to do given they only had 20 fit players to rotate.....last time we lost by one kick to them, if you want to argue stats they beat us by 4-5 goals this time, how is that progress? Does that mean Port have improved more than us or we have gone backwards?

Sellers betrays his blatant pandering to negative supporter tropes when he says that. To us on the outside, we see the club as a continuum, but those who are there now and who are new should not be crucified for what came before, for individuals and decisions over which they have no control. Surely Teague et al deserve to be given a fair chance, without being brought down by what came before ?

 Being upset about being losers for 20 plus years is a negative supporter trope??? Wtf?

If you can be bothered, listen to the SEN caller Mick at 31:15. He is onto something.
Bob and Andy were discussing Carlton and an Ess support called in saying we have improved. Mick called and gave his perspective.
https://www.sen.com.au/programs/sen-drive/

If you bothered to look at the episode, you might hold a different view.  But since you won't?  So be it

I assume no further effort is required to kick 14.9 than to kick 9.14 ?

I'm not suggesting everything is hunky dory, nor am I suggesting we don't have plenty to work on, but all this sky-is-falling stuff is IMO premature, not really backed up by the last 15,20 games and for a trigger happy club like the CFC, is virtually guaranteed to lead us into trouble.

Never been a fan of comparing scoring shots.
For a start...poor kicking is poor football.
Poor skills or shots under pressure.
Secondly you don't know without looking how many of the behinds are rushed points.
OOF is another factor.

The scoreboard actually flattered us.
If we'd have got to the stage where we actually started to worry them they would have clicked it up a gear and skipped away.
They were very average but still had our measure.

https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/04/21/why-are-we-bashing-carlton-again/

Please read.

For all 'The sky is falling' folk, please point out errors in this story.

https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/04/21/why-are-we-bashing-carlton-again/

Please read.

For all 'The sky is falling' folk, please point out errors in this story.

People aren't just upset about this season.
It's the 20 odd seasons before and what they perceive is another wasted year and more of the same.

People aren't just upset about this season.
It's the 20 odd seasons before and what they perceive is another wasted year and more of the same.

I get that. But that is somewhat irrelevant.

Its like playing poker.
We've had some dud hands.
We've made some bad calls.

Now we don't quite have pocket aces, but we've got a middle pair. We are not expected to win most hands, but we will win some.
If we worry about all the hands that came before to make our decision now, we will make the wrong decision.
We need to focus on the cards we currently hold, and the chance that what we have will win the round we are in. Nothing more, Nothing less.
Doing anything else is playing on emotion and emotion does not lead to good decisions.

Ask yourself, WWJD WWSD
What Would SPOCK Do?

Thing logically about the situation, devoid of all emotion.

Never been a fan of comparing scoring shots.
For a start...poor kicking is poor football.
Poor skills or shots under pressure.
Secondly you don't know without looking how many of the behinds are rushed points.
OOF is another factor.

The scoreboard actually flattered us.
If we'd have got to the stage where we actually started to worry them they would have clicked it up a gear and skipped away.
They were very average but still had our measure.

I think poor kicking for goal is precisely that - it's not bad football. It doesn't invalidate what has got the ball into the goal kicking position. It is simply bad finishing. It was our worst performance for the season, against a real flag contender. If you thought Port were average that night, I shudder to think what their best might look like.

I read what was said on The Roar and thought a comment on the article by a contributor might be of interest:

"It's the nature of the loss to Port that's the problem.  Nearly a quarter of the Blues total score was kicked in the last 5 minutes of the game when Port had clocked off.

Carlton had 10 of the lowest 12 disposal-getters on the ground, and the two Port players in that bottom 12 were injured pair Hartlett and Dan Houston, who was subbed out at halftime.

There are glaring stats that Carlton must swiftly address or run the risk of missing the finals for an eighth consecutive season.

The first is simple but damning.  The Blues haven't been ahead of the win-loss ledger during a season since mid-2016.

The other stat is equally telling.  Since the start of 2014, Carlton has won only nine games against teams that went on to play finals in that given season."

With a membership of 80,000 mostly unhappy fans, is it any wonder that the media is on our case?

People aren't just upset about this season.
It's the 20 odd seasons before and what they perceive is another wasted year and more of the same.

Exactly .... and if it's true the new guys gave the rest of the lazy ones a bake after a loss, then shame on those players.

I read what was said on The Roar and thought a comment on the article by a contributor might be of interest:

"It's the nature of the loss to Port that's the problem.  Nearly a quarter of the Blues total score was kicked in the last 5 minutes of the game when Port had clocked off.

Carlton had 10 of the lowest 12 disposal-getters on the ground, and the two Port players in that bottom 12 were injured pair Hartlett and Dan Houston, who was subbed out at halftime.

There are glaring stats that Carlton must swiftly address or run the risk of missing the finals for an eighth consecutive season.

The first is simple but damning.  The Blues haven't been ahead of the win-loss ledger during a season since mid-2016.

The other stat is equally telling.  Since the start of 2014, Carlton has won only nine games against teams that went on to play finals in that given season."

With a membership of 80,000 mostly unhappy fans, is it any wonder that the media is on our case?

I get the nature of the loss, and sure, it is legitimate. But.....look at St. Kilda and Essendon....against worst opposition. By comparison, it is NOT that bad. Yes, we want it to be better and yes we should be angry until it is.....but....it could be worse, and it has been for other teams.

re possession getters....not really a stat worth commenting on IMO. Part of the reason for that is our poor disposal efficiency. We kept turning it over giving them free possessions.
With 2 players down, their other players would have to get more of the ball to compensate anyway. Plus, we are carrying a few too many passengers which we are well aware of, but due to injuries, haven't got any real replacements to choose from.....or at least not enough.

The win/loss stat is disappointing, sure, but 2 things.
1. Fixture means we start 0-1 every year...we are always behind the 8-ball there. Get different teams, and that record magically changes.
2. As mentioned earlier, that is completely irrelevant to where we are with this coach, this playing list and this season.

Yes fans are frustrated. Even in '95 fans were frustrated when we lost to Sydney and St. Kilda. Fans do that.
Fans are also not the most logical and/or rational thinkers out there either. Everyone wants results yesterday.
Again, i get why....but being angry doesn't help anything, it only hurts us. Forcing change when perhaps change is the last thing we want.

The article was right to point out that we, as a football club, are known to 'flinch' and cave to external pressure.
When truckloads of manure was being dumped at punt road and memberships were being ignited in microwaves, richmond stuck by its coach and he is now a triple premiership coach, with more on the way.

There is a lesson there somewhere....

I get that. But that is somewhat irrelevant.

Its like playing poker.
We've had some dud hands.
We've made some bad calls.

Now we don't quite have pocket aces, but we've got a middle pair. We are not expected to win most hands, but we will win some.
If we worry about all the hands that came before to make our decision now, we will make the wrong decision.
We need to focus on the cards we currently hold, and the chance that what we have will win the round we are in. Nothing more, Nothing less.
Doing anything else is playing on emotion and emotion does not lead to good decisions.

Ask yourself, WWJD WWSD
What Would SPOCK Do?

Thing logically about the situation, devoid of all emotion.

Spock would probably have a losing season.
The game doesn't follow logical trends and in fact is a most illogical game.
Emotion is at it's very core.
You see that in upsets.
I'm hoping we'll see it this weekend if the team has any pride after the hammering they've received.

If our team comes ready to play, giving intensity, effort and passion on a given day they can knock over any side, even the top ones if they're just a fraction off.
They're all emotional responses.
They defy logic.

Emotion also is at the heart of a supporter base.
Riled enough by lack of effort they can bring extreme pressure on a board to make changes.
You can call for logic.
You won't get it.

Spock would probably have a losing season.
The game doesn't follow logical trends and in fact is a most illogical game.
Emotion is at it's very core.
You see that in upsets.
I'm hoping we'll see it this weekend if the team has any pride after the hammering they've received.

If our team comes ready to play, giving intensity, effort and passion on a given day they can knock over any side, even the top ones if they're just a fraction off.
They're all emotional responses.
They defy logic.

Emotion also is at the heart of a supporter base.
Riled enough by lack of effort they can bring extreme pressure on a board to make changes.
You can call for logic.
You won't get it.

FWIW, i was asking for Spocks point of view as a member, not a coach. ;)

re Red....
Here's a noggin scratcher for you.

What has been the 1 constant with the club over the past 20-odd years?

What has been the 1 constant with the club over the past 20-odd years?

Kade Simpson ;)

and

A somewhat entitled playing group who only do as much as they feel necessary, and are often resistant to new coaches and new ideas?
A group of individuals rather than a team.

Oh...and the board.
But any changes to coaches that have been made, have been made at the right time.
What is in dispute is the folks they put into the job.

Kicking straight is probably a good start. In 4 years we have had 2 coaches and about ?? 30,40 list changes. Those two coaches seem, if not diametrically opposed, then certainly very different. How do we address this pressure issue ? Because I'll be buggered if I know. Coach and list changes don't seem to help.

It's personal, not coaching.

FWIW, i was asking for Spocks point of view as a member, not a coach. ;)

re Red....
Here's a noggin scratcher for you.

What has been the 1 constant with the club over the past 20-odd years?

CSC?

Kade Simpson ;)

and

A somewhat entitled playing group who only do as much as they feel necessary, and are often resistant to new coaches and new ideas?
A group of individuals rather than a team.

Oh...and the board.
But any changes to coaches that have been made, have been made at the right time.
What is in dispute is the folks they put into the job.

Wrong.

The one, true constant over that time....

The supporters.
The arrogant, entitled, success driven, impatient, supporters. All of which are poor character traits to have in the modern game.

Perhaps we are victims of our own success? Perhaps we exert to much pressure on the board at the wrong time.


....and before you wet yourself because you are ROFLMAOing......let me add this. Some 'supporters' are more arrogant, entitled, success driven and impatient than others.....and some 'supporters' have more say in the day to day business than others.

THAT is our true achillies heal.

I was arguing with someone the other day about our off-field being in the best place it has been over the past 2 decades. Thier response was something along the lines of, but does that get us wins? I gave examples of 'improved brand' which ultimately leads to a better, more attractive football club which will give more wins.

However, what i forgot to mention was this.
Clearing our debt and improving our overall finances has a second, perhaps more important benefit.
That is, getting 'the bankers of our back'. We no longer need to bow down to external pressures by some 'supporters' at the threat of losing income if we ignore their wishes.

We are free from our 'supporters' for the first time in 20 years.

With that in mind....lets ride out the storm and see what benefits that gives us....and we won't see a direct benefit this year.

It's personal, not coaching.

Personnel ? Well then, we have a problem, because our personnel is very different from 4 years ago.

Wrong.

The one, true constant over that time....

The supporters.
The arrogant, entitled, success driven, impatient, supporters. All of which are poor character traits to have in the modern game.

Perhaps we are victims of our own success? Perhaps we exert to much pressure on the board at the wrong time.


....and before you wet yourself because you are ROFLMAOing......let me add this. Some 'supporters' are more arrogant, entitled, success driven and impatient than others.....and some 'supporters' have more say in the day to day business than others.

THAT is our true achillies heal.

I was arguing with someone the other day about our off-field being in the best place it has been over the past 2 decades. Thier response was something along the lines of, but does that get us wins? I gave examples of 'improved brand' which ultimately leads to a better, more attractive football club which will give more wins.

However, what i forgot to mention was this.
Clearing our debt and improving our overall finances has a second, perhaps more important benefit.
That is, getting 'the bankers of our back'. We no longer need to bow down to external pressures by some 'supporters' at the threat of losing income if we ignore their wishes.

We are free from our 'supporters' for the first time in 20 years.

With that in mind....lets ride out the storm and see what benefits that gives us....and we won't see a direct benefit this year.

Tell me one coaching change over the last twenty years you didn't agree with Kruddler.
I'll give you Brittain...but no others.
Their time had come.

I actually have no problems with the off-field admin stuff, we're going  OK.

Wrong.

The one, true constant over that time....

The supporters.
The arrogant, entitled, success driven, impatient, supporters. All of which are poor character traits to have in the modern game.

Perhaps we are victims of our own success? Perhaps we exert to much pressure on the board at the wrong time.


....and before you wet yourself because you are ROFLMAOing......let me add this. Some 'supporters' are more arrogant, entitled, success driven and impatient than others.....and some 'supporters' have more say in the day to day business than others.

THAT is our true achillies heal.

I was arguing with someone the other day about our off-field being in the best place it has been over the past 2 decades. Thier response was something along the lines of, but does that get us wins? I gave examples of 'improved brand' which ultimately leads to a better, more attractive football club which will give more wins.

However, what i forgot to mention was this.
Clearing our debt and improving our overall finances has a second, perhaps more important benefit.
That is, getting 'the bankers of our back'. We no longer need to bow down to external pressures by some 'supporters' at the threat of losing income if we ignore their wishes.

We are free from our 'supporters' for the first time in 20 years.

With that in mind....lets ride out the storm and see what benefits that gives us....and we won't see a direct benefit this year.

I get the proposition you are putting, but it still doesn't stop me from feeling as though I've been trapped in Groundhog Day with no happy ending in sight.

I get the proposition you are putting, but it still doesn't stop me from feeling as though I've been trapped in Groundhog Day with no happy ending in sight.

Never said it was easy.

I dunno, maybe its just me, but i seem to be able to make decisions without emotion.....after some time to reflect...and i try and look at the facts at hand and make a call based on that. I'm aware not everyone can do similar. But i implore people to think a little first before reacting. We are too guilty of striking first and asking questions later.

Like any banker has any sway over CFC when the Pratts and Mathiesons rule the roost....

Clearly you've never worked in the finance world Kruddler.

The Pratts piss CFC's historic debt down the sink daily....

It is and was a non issue.

Liddle? Likes his mates....

The right fit for CFC?

How many years in the job now? Has anything changed onfield?

Nada.

Fail.

Tell me one coaching change over the last twenty years you didn't agree with Kruddler.
I'll give you Brittain...but no others.
Their time had come.

I actually have no problems with the off-field admin stuff, we're going  OK.

Their time HAD come.....but why.....because the external pressure had become too great.

TBH, Pagan was the only one i was pushing for to get the flick.
I conceded that the time had come for Ratten, Malthouse and Bolton to go, but i was in their corner right up until the end.
From memory, i was on board with Ratten until we lost the GC game. He was sacked that week.
I was on board with Bolton until the bombers game. He was sacked that week.
I can't recall the exact week i jumped off Malthouse, but i'm still a defender of his today because he was (again) used as a scape goat and inevitably had to go when he did. NOT because he couldn't coach, but because he didn't have the support....of the club (including its 'supporters').

I think this site has all the above from me in writing on here if anyone wants to dig through it, so this is not hindsight talking.

But....coaches had to go because of the pressure...Not because of ability.

This is why i had an argument with you about the pressure on Teague "already" because i could see the same pattern forming.
Pressure builds too soon, and it has a snowballing effect, a self fulfilling prophecy, which has no other way to end than with a sacking. I want to stop the pressure building at the start in the hope that it gives enough time for the coach to actually perform, rather than that time being brought forward due to impatience.

...and yes here is where the supporters will say...."but i've been patient for 20+ years...." blah blah. No, you haven't been patient. You've sat through 20+ years, but like everyone else, you've been b!tching that whole time. As i said, i get it. People need to b!tch, but once thats out of your system, look at it through unbiased glasses and assess the situation on its merits, without using past history as justification for current trends.

Like any banker has any sway over CFC when the Pratts and Mathiesons rule the roost....

Clearly you've never worked in the finance world Kruddler.

The Pratts piss CFC's historic debt down the sink daily....

It is and was a non issue.

Liddle? Likes his mates....

The right fit for CFC?

How many years in the job now? Has anything changed onfield?

Nada.

Fail.

:o
You can lead a horse to water flyboy, but you can't make him drink.
 >:(

Pratt and Mathieson etc are the 'supporters' i'm talking about numbskull! They are the 'banker'.
They are the ones financing us and pulling the strings.

Without the debt, we no longer rely on them in the same way we have.

Go re-read what i wrote with this newfound knowledge and tell me you still think its wrong.

Never said it was easy.

I dunno, maybe its just me, but i seem to be able to make decisions without emotion.....after some time to reflect...and i try and look at the facts at hand and make a call based on that. I'm aware not everyone can do similar. But i implore people to think a little first before reacting. We are too guilty of striking first and asking questions later.

I like to think I can do the same.  I acknowledge that we have injury problems that affect team selection.  That being said, there can be no getting away from the fact that the full list has too many passengers - some without the necessary skills to ever be part of a successful side and others with skills who want to play "nice" football - who are holding us back in moving  from an "also ran" team to a serious contender.

 

Just further to that and on reflection....
There seems to be this idea that the players, admin and board are separate from the members and supporters.
That the latter have no right to an input or to voice their views on the running of the club.
That we should just shut-up and let them get on with it.
That's not happening.

The performance of the Carlton football club means a lot more to these "arrogant, entitled, success driven, impatient" supporters than any fly-by-night administrator and arguably the majority of the players, many of whom grew up supporting other teams.

For some it's a lifelong love, passion and commitment.
Cradle to the grave stuff.
Their greatest desire is for the success of the club.
Overwhelmingly the comments made on this site and other Carlton forums are made by passionate Carlton people who want to see us better.
They've probably earned a right to their point of view, members through financial support, and other supporters through their devotion to the club.

The last time Members/Supporters let the management run the club without accountability or providing any input we ended up rattling tins and fighting for the clubs survival.
Lods post was a excellent overview of the wider picture and what the club means to its supporter base.

I like to think I can do the same.  I acknowledge that we have injury problems that affect team selection.  That being said, there can be no getting away from the fact that the full list has too many passengers - some without the necessary skills to ever be part of a successful side and others with skills who want to play "nice" football - who are holding us back in moving  from an "also ran" team to a serious contender.

I am not trying to suggest we are a premiership contender.

However, i am suggesting that we do not need to sack the coach, the board and go through an entire rebuild again either.

The last time Charlie played a full game, he kicked 7 goals. He got injured the next week and injured again in a comeback game.
Imagine what having a fit Charlie can do for this team. He is but 1 player, but his inclusion would live morale, thus effort, and overall talent level, potentially to the point where we have a win or 2 more so far. That means less pressure on everyone. However, through no fault of our own really, he is unavailable....and we are under the thumb as a result.
There are others on our list that would have a similar effect, albeit less obvious one. Marchbank, Newman....

The follow on from their longterm unavailability means that obviously we have a less talented team to choose from. But perhaps more importantly it means we have less options to bring in when things are not going well. So we can't afford to drop poor performing players, because the players coming in are not up to AFL standard....or have failed previously to this point. Pressure increases.

I think it was Kane Cornes that was saying we as a club have failed by not playing the kids. He showed a graphic with kids and games played. He used Kemp with 0 games as justification of this point. Of course, ask a Carlton supporter why Kemp has played 0 games and you'll find out that is because he has been injured basically his entire time on the list. But the media run with it and pressure increases.

Why did Bolton get sacked? He played too many kids. But now, we don't play enough kids.
Less learned and less informed Carlton supporters and AFL supporters in general do not deep dive into these comments, but repeat them as justification for getting angry at the club etc. Pressure increases.

So what happens? Pressure increases.....mostly unjustifiably.
End result, supporters get their way without really knowing why.
Cycle repeats.

Getting a bit too willing in here for my liking. 

Just further to that and on reflection....
There seems to be this idea that the players, admin and board are separate from the members and supporters.
That the latter have no right to an input or to voice their views on the running of the club.
That we should just shut-up and let them get on with it.
That's not happening.

The performance of the Carlton football club means a lot more to these "arrogant, entitled, success driven, impatient" supporters than any fly-by-night administrator and arguably the majority of the players, many of whom grew up supporting other teams.

For some it's a lifelong love, passion and commitment.
Cradle to the grave stuff.
Their greatest desire is for the success of the club.
Overwhelmingly the comments made on this site and other Carlton forums are made by passionate Carlton people who want to see us better.
They've probably earned a right to their point of view, members through financial support, and other supporters through their devotion to the club.

@ElwoodBlues1 and @Lods
I think you guys, along with flyboy, slightly misunderstood the use of 'supporters'.

Yes, i am including myself, you guys and many on here. However, we are supporters and then there are 'supporters'.

See my response to Flyboy.
Substitute 'supporters' for Mathieson, Pratt etc.

Happened to listen to Matt Randell (guest on Dwayne Russell’s SEN show). He was asked about Carlton and he noted SOS was being dragged for his trades/drafting but he quoted a Richmond recruiter who said that every player who is drafted is capable of playing AFL. He says he always looked at the best games a potential recruit had played as that showed what they were capable of. From there, it was up to the club to train him to play at the level consistently. If players don’t live up to that promise, it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have been picked. It means that they haven’t been developed properly. A coach needs to give them confidence, give them games etc. Failure to thrive means something’s wrong at the club: coaching, development or sth else. He agreed with David King’s point that Carlton was wrong to handle the “leadership coaching” internally as the person responsible had to go along with the players to keep his job. He said we need to retain an external consultant who can call a spade a spade.

Getting a bit too willing in here for my liking.

Don't get too concerned. ;)
It's actually not as bad as it seems :D
I have a great deal of time for Kruddler, his participation and contribution to the site.
We tend to agree a fair bit of the time.
We also have a few disagreements.
We just have a difference of opinion at the moment over supporter influence.

I suspect that may have a bit to do with a generational view of the club.
I'm stuck in 1970
Kruddler's in 2070 :))

I am not trying to suggest we are a premiership contender.

However, i am suggesting that we do not need to sack the coach, the board and go through an entire rebuild again either.

The last time Charlie played a full game, he kicked 7 goals. He got injured the next week and injured again in a comeback game.
Imagine what having a fit Charlie can do for this team. He is but 1 player, but his inclusion would live morale, thus effort, and overall talent level, potentially to the point where we have a win or 2 more so far. That means less pressure on everyone. However, through no fault of our own really, he is unavailable....and we are under the thumb as a result.
There are others on our list that would have a similar effect, albeit less obvious one. Marchbank, Newman....

The follow on from their longterm unavailability means that obviously we have a less talented team to choose from. But perhaps more importantly it means we have less options to bring in when things are not going well. So we can't afford to drop poor performing players, because the players coming in are not up to AFL standard....or have failed previously to this point. Pressure increases.

I think it was Kane Cornes that was saying we as a club have failed by not playing the kids. He showed a graphic with kids and games played. He used Kemp with 0 games as justification of this point. Of course, ask a Carlton supporter why Kemp has played 0 games and you'll find out that is because he has been injured basically his entire time on the list. But the media run with it and pressure increases.

Why did Bolton get sacked? He played too many kids. But now, we don't play enough kids.
Less learned and less informed Carlton supporters and AFL supporters in general do not deep dive into these comments, but repeat them as justification for getting angry at the club etc. Pressure increases.

So what happens? Pressure increases.....mostly unjustifiably.
End result, supporters get their way without really knowing why.
Cycle repeats.

I am not suggesting that we sack the coach, the board or go through an entire rebuild, and I'm not sure anyone else is either.

I am very happy that the club has its finances in order.

However, our appalling record at the draft has left us in the position we are in now.  It seems at the drafts our selection committee has been fixated on picks in the first 20 to 25 and paid little attention to later draft picks - on reflection some seem like an afterthought - leaving us now having to pay big money for the likes of players such as McGovern.

Instead of having a number of reliable foot soldiers to cover inevitable injuries, the cupboard is almost bare. That lack of foresight is holding us back now and for the near future.

This current situation was entirely predictable and it is what upsets supporters. 

I have a great deal of time for Kruddler....

Kruddler's in 2070 :))

That is indeed a lot of time.  ;D

I am not suggesting that we sack the coach, the board or go through an entire rebuild, and I'm not sure anyone else is either.

You are not....others however....

However, our appalling record at the draft has left us in the position we are in now.  It seems at the drafts our selection committee has been fixated on picks in the first 20 to 25 and paid little attention to later draft picks - on reflection some seem like an afterthought - leaving us now having to pay big money for the likes of players such as McGovern.

Instead of having a number of reliable foot soldiers to cover inevitable injuries, the cupboard is almost bare. That lack of foresight is holding us back now and for the near future.

This current situation was entirely predictable and it is what upsets supporters. 

re foot soldiers...
Thats why i wanted Newnes.
Thats why i wanted McDonald.....who knew he'd get injured for 2 months.

I'm not suggesting we haven't made mistakes, or have some things to learn. Just that its not as bad as it appears......to some.

Example, you just cite draft picks and poor selections.
Mav just provided an alternative view from those who'd know.....that is we have failed in development.

Development has been one of my biggest bug bears with this club. We get players in, they never seem to hit the elite mark like they do elsewhere.
We let players go who are underperforming, then they go to another level at another club.
Its not the players, its the development.
People say we never should've let JK go for Judd.
I say JK never would've been the same player had he stayed with us.

Everyone has their theories as to why we are no good.
Reality would suggest its a little bit of everything, rather than simply 1 thing.

My take, besides poor development, is that their is too much outside influence from 'supporters' (read Pratts and Mathiesons) who are trigger happy and never let our plans play out we'd like and get cold feet, and demand change too soon.

Point taken Kruddler.

I must admit I was blindsided by the details from the Matt Rendell interview. I have given little attention to development in the past as I assumed ( I know, a dangerous thing to do) that Carlton as a successful club would automatically use best practices in the development of its players.

Now that it has been called into question, I would appreciate any information on development, or lack of, as it relates to our club.

The fact that our next gen/academy set up is a joke and I think we are the only club not to have listed a player developed from that source. Is a disgrace and missed opportunity IMO.

@ Kruddler

I understand the point you're making regarding "Supporter v supporter"

I think we all appreciate that powerful 'Supporters" outside the club have influenced the running of the club...that  extends even beyond the 20 year 'dark ages'.
 
It raises a couple of points and questions.
Firstly I have  no doubt that these folks (Pratts, Mathieson,...Elliotts in the past) are all solid Carlton people.
They all want success for the club.
In that respect they're pretty much the same as us.

They differ from the average supporter in that they have significant financial and political (at a club level) influence.
The question is how much they enjoy that power and control and the positive and negative benefits of its influence.

Given that they're supporters much like us.....do they react and move on the basis of what they perceive as a general feeling for change amongst the general Carlton population or do they move when they want to.
In other words... are they the cart or the horse?

So we understand that these people have had a significant impact on club politics.
If this is at the heart of our problems how is it resolved?
I'm not sure it's possible.
A first step would be a total board change.
A new independent group...but how independent would any group be?
How do you stop the wealthy from involving themselves.
The likely result would just be a switch to another faction.

With the nominations committee were stuck with these factions forever.  "revolution" isn't possible.

I must admit I was blindsided by the details from the Matt Rendell interview. I have given little attention to development in the past as I assumed ( I know, a dangerous thing to do) that Carlton as a successful club would automatically use best practices in the development of its players.

Now that it has been called into question, I would appreciate any information on development, or lack of, as it relates to our club.

It's a long story, full of opinions and theories. Back in the day, Carlton didn't have to worry about development, because we simply bought the best available. It was a club everyone wanted to play for, and we could therefore discard all but the very best. This mentality continued through to John Elliott, with his famous quip in 1990 that "We don't rebuild at Carlton." I think we came very late to embracing the twin equalisation measures of the draft and salary cap, and for all I know they may have been embraced begrudgingly. I suspect it takes a long time to build good habits, and it takes a long time to build a successful development program. Clubs like Hawthorn have what is informally known as the Hawthorn apprenticeship, where the kids come in and play in the 2's for a season or two to learn the Hawks way. So far as I can tell, we have no such thing. It seems to me as though our kids come straight in and are expected to have an immediate impact. I think the massive rebuild started a few years back in a way forced the club to look at the development issue properly. I guess it's open to debate whether we were ready for it then, and whether we're ready for it now.

@Paul

There is little evidence to show or suggest that we have yet taken on board such development measures. We have started hearing about the "Carlton Academy " recently though. Hopefully this will involve bringing aboard the right experience and expertise.

I must admit I was blindsided by the details from the Matt Rendell interview. I have given little attention to development in the past as I assumed ( I know, a dangerous thing to do) that Carlton as a successful club would automatically use best practices in the development of its players.
Now that it has been called into question, I would appreciate any information on development, or lack of, as it relates to our club.

I think one way to look at it is this....
Have a look at the list and ask yourself this question....
Which players, especially amongst draftees, are better or showing significantly more impact than their initial season?

Just as a start....
Cunningham
Dow
O'Brien

Are they better footballers than their first season?

SPS- Has had some good games...but has he progressed?
Fisher-Injured a bit lately...but not really a dramatic improvement over his initial year.

Weitering- had a good first season then took a while to get back but is now showing a bit of what we expected.
Harry McKay- shows potential....the challenge is to find some consistency.
Jack Silvagni- Thought he showed a bit of improvement before his injury.

Walsh-the energizer bunny, keeps going... keeps getting better. Will we continue to 'develop him'...or burn him out.

After that we have to look at the draftees who haven't yet made it into the side on a consistent basis or have been discarded.
That's a fault in development that's not always in the front of mind.

Whether it's improving skills or giving players opportunities you have to think we have some issues in development.

@Paul

There is little evidence to show or suggest that we have yet taken on board such development measures. We have started hearing about the "Carlton Academy " recently though. Hopefully this will involve bringing aboard the right experience and expertise.

I am of the opinion that under Bolton, the men's senior team was the development team, and he was the development coach, because frankly, there was nowhere else for the kids to go. Clearly a recipe for class unrest.

I hope the Academy as you mention and also the new VFL team will address this issue.

Lods is right, losses are good for business, especially bad ones...haha.

This one has been pulled apart and analysed to the absolute nth degree...lol. Been a good discussion.

Tom Browne
@TomBrowne7
John Worsfold will mentor David Teague and the blues coaches, attending the game this weekend. They are friends from West Coast, and have been in discussion since February. It’s part time, but will boost support and add IP. #exclusive

Someone on FB went to listen to Robert Walls at a Sportsman's Night.

"I had the pleasure of listening to Robert Walls speak last night at a Sportsman’s Association evening. He’s a great presenter and spoke for roughly an hour (inc Q & A), a few take aways for me were;
1. He mentioned that he still follows Carlton, and that he met with Mark Maclure on Tuesday to speak about his comments. For what it’s worth he agrees with Maclure but won’t speak to the media about it as the Club always follows up with a please explain (in his words; “I don’t want to be beaten over the head with a baseball bat”)
2. As the current team sits he can see that there’s only 3 players that would die for the jumper each game. He named them in order of Cripps, Walsh & Ed Curnow. Jones & Weitering go close but just aren’t desperate enough every minute of every game. He said the rest were happy to get paid and be mediocre.
3. His son is the current list manager/TPP manager at Freo and he’s based in Melbourne as Freo has a focus on WA players as the go home factor is real. He never mentioned Cripps as being a target but did speak of Tim English, Aaron Naughton & Bailey Dale of the WB’s. Also mentioned that Fyfe is currently on 1.4mil a year. I read into this that he was trying to say they won’t be going for “big fish” but rather younger players on smaller contracts."

I don't agree with the whole "we're crap at development" theory. Not many of our players who have left have become good footballers elsewhere. JK is the exception but there were exceptional circumstances there.

It is much more the case that we recruit the wrong players to start with. SOS sort of put that right but then our other main problem struck... amateurish board & management.

Then you've got to consider fitness.

We seem to be permanently 10-15 players down. What the solution is there I don't know.

Take the equivalent or Charlie, TDK, Parks, Newman, JSOS, Kemp, Caroll, Martin, Fisher, Marchbank, McDonald off the Port list, give us all of those players fit and re-run last week's game and see who wins. It is hard to judge the list build when you never get to see the list play.

I don't agree with the whole "we're crap at development" theory. Not many of our players who have left have become good footballers elsewhere. JK is the exception but there were exceptional circumstances there.

Eddie Betts played better at Adelaide.
Mitch Robinson played better at Brisbane
Nick Holman clearly better at Gold Coast
Lachie Henderson played his best football with Geelong
Zach Tuohy played his best at Geelong
Shaun Grigg played his best at Richmond
Josh Kennedy at West Coast
Sam Jacobs at Adelaide
Shaun Hampson at Richmond



..and thats just off the top of my head.