A Saturday night game and we're not on TV: with the Commonwealth Games on, no footy on TV on Saturday night.
I suspect you are wrong, Ch.7 have the 7pm Bulldogs / Handbaggers game listed! ;)
I suspect you are wrong, Ch.7 have the 7pm Bulldogs / Handbaggers game listed! ;)
Not according to afl.com.au, but it isn't like these people have been wrong before.
At this point I'd be hoping for Marc Pittonet to come into the side for this game. He needs time at the top to reach the form he was in before he got injured.
Owies and Martin will be available. I don't expect both of them to come in, although one may.
Owies for Honey I reckon if if he's fit. If Pittonet comes in, SOS can play mainly forward and up high around the wings.....not sure him and Jack Martin can both play that role?
Be interesting to see how Walsh an Weitering pull up, hopefully they are ok and play. We need our best on the park for the remainder of the season.
Be interesting to see how Walsh an Weitering pull up, hopefully they are ok and play. We need our best on the park for the remainder of the season.
Indeed. Walsh is a warrior, but he needs to be fit to get the best from himself.
Weitering needs time on the park to get some confidence back. He is not playing that well at the moment. he actually started the year a bit like this, and warmed into it. By the time we played Sydney, Weitering was at his best and dominated Franklin. That's what we need in the finals.
Young is the other one who has gone backwards lately. He isn't holding his marks at the moment and often two-hand punches where he was out-marking opponents earlier in the year. He needs to get that marking back.
One thing that was definitely in our favour was that McGovern was marking the ball pretty well. He'll get better at that as he gains more confidence .
Today was the a perfect opportunity to show how valuable Pittonet was earlier in the year. Tom de Koning struggles against the real Bull rucks. The other athletic rucks he usually beats.
Tom also doesn't direct his taps as well as Pittonet does. It is everything he can do to get his hand on the ball. Three or four time he gets it right and puts it down a mid's throat. They look just so good. But that is not the norm.
If Weitering needs a rest, this is our last chance before finals.
Give him the week off, bring in Marchbank.
We'd have Young, McGovern and Marchbank to hold down 2KPs and an intercepting role.....and get away with it against the crows.
Last 3 weeks we have Dees, Lions, Pies. We need to be at full strength for them.
Indeed. Walsh is a warrior, but he needs to be fit to get the best from himself.
Weitering needs time on the park to get some confidence back. He is not playing that well at the moment. he actually started the year a bit like this, and warmed into it. By the time we played Sydney, Weitering was at his best and dominated Franklin. That's what we need in the finals.
Young is the other one who has gone backwards lately. He isn't holding his marks at the moment and often two-hand punches where he was out-marking opponents earlier in the year. He needs to get that marking back.
One thing that was definitely in our favour was that McGovern was marking the ball pretty well. He'll get better at that as he gains more confidence .
Today was the a perfect opportunity to show how valuable Pittonet was earlier in the year. Tom de Koning struggles against the real Bull rucks. The other athletic rucks he usually beats.
Tom also doesn't direct his taps as well as Pittonet does. It is everything he can do to get his hand on the ball. Three or four time he gets it right and puts it down a mid's throat. They look just so good. But that is not the norm.
Today Tom hit it down the throat of their mids a few times despite being in clear air. Needs to stay composed, comes with confidence I guess. Pitto will provide some much needed support for Tommy and hopefully some confidence.
Small forwards are really disappointing and don't see them lifting when the heat is on as they havn't really all year - our talls doing it all. Understand we are playing the long game with them but how long?.... throw kitchen sink at Rankine and trade some players out.
Case in point Breust, Rioli and Puopolo causing chaos when Tall forwards were firing. To take the next step with defence and mids so good need small forwards to step it up
Small forwards are really disappointing and don't see them lifting when the heat is on as they havn't really all year - our talls doing it all. Understand we are playing the long game with them but how long?.... throw kitchen sink at Rankine and trade some players out.
I think Durdin and Motts will be fine, they need experience playing together and learning how to get at the feet of the tall timber. They chase and harass and do all the 1% team stuff, just need to hit the scoreboard more often, it will come I reckon. Im tipping Durds will light it up this week in Adelaide in front of family and friends.
So assuming Pitto, Hewitt and Owies come in, who goes out?
Honey would be a definite out for me.
Cotts, Motts, LOB?/
Med Sub Newnes out for Owies as the med sub?
I think Durdin and Motts will be fine, they need experience playing together and learning how to get at the feet of the tall timber. They chase and harass and do all the 1% team stuff, just need to hit the scoreboard more often, it will come I reckon. Im tipping Durds will light it up this week in Adelaide in front of family and friends.
Small Durds Im a fan but doesn't do enough when the heat is on atm. Maybe in the future but right now he just doesn't.
Honey is explosive that has had injury problems early in the year and for a young player it sets them back. The only reason I say this because when I was playing (not AFL) without a big pre season you do feel a little bit behind the eight ball.
Motts - love him but 1-2 pre season away.
Owies - our best small forward and really says alot.
Need to improve the quality in this area.
Walsh will be very, very sore today. Warrior or not, I'd make him take a week off and get himself right for a big final 3 weeks. Give Dow a chance to show that he is ready to go if required over the next 2 months.
Not according to afl.com.au, but it isn't like these people have been wrong before.
Looked up the TV Guide.. Footy is on at 7pm.
Geelong v Western Bulldogs at 7pm on Saturday (Channel 7)
Ch9 News reports Walsh and Weitering have been cleared of injury after the Giants game but George Hewett will miss again with the back injury, an injury that will continue to make him a week by week proposition for the remainder of the season.
Ch9 News reports Walsh and Weitering have been cleared of injury after the Giants game but George Hewett will miss again with the back injury, an injury that will continue to make him a week by week proposition for the remainder of the season.
Is this not the moment we've been preparing Paddy Dow for?
Treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen.
Give him a go now and watch him explode.
Give him a go now and watch him explode.
I'd say he's on the trade table, because that is the only thing that explains why he isn't being given a run.
I'd say he's on the trade table, because that is the only thing that explains why he isn't being given a run.
People will be enquiring, and we'd be listening.
But to not play him now would be to the detriment of the team IMO.
Plenty of guys have been talked back in from the ledge. Until he jumps, there is still hope.
People will be enquiring, and we'd be listening.
But to not play him now would be to the detriment of the team IMO.
Plenty of guys have been talked back in from the ledge. Until he jumps, there is still hope.
I didn't get to see all of the last VFL game, I should watch the replay, but from what I've seen this season Dow still plays more like Motlop than his other AFL team-mates / counterparts, and I suspect that holds Dow back. It's not what he does when the ball is in range in front of him, it's what he doesn't do when we do not have the footy that I think is costing Dow a spot!
Fans won't see it, they see the contest at the footy, but coaches won't miss it because they see everything!
In this regard you and I had this very same discussion about another Carlton player who was a bit like this in years gone by, how things have changed, I agree they can change for Dow as well. He won't find a better example of that the person he should look up to!
People will be enquiring, and we'd be listening.
But to not play him now would be to the detriment of the team IMO.
Plenty of guys have been talked back in from the ledge. Until he jumps, there is still hope.
Yep. Dowie had a couple of glaring holes in his game, that, apparently he's been working hard on. For those who saw his last game against the Midgets VFL team, saw more layers to his game. Probably his best game in terms of influence and 'team'.
I didn't get to see all of the last VFL game, I should watch the replay, but from what I've seen this season Dow still plays more like Motlop than his other AFL team-mates / counterparts, and I suspect that holds Dow back. It's not what he does when the ball is in range in front of him, it's what he doesn't do when we do not have the footy that I think is costing Dow a spot!
Fans won't see it, they see the contest at the footy, but coaches won't miss it because they see everything!
In this regard you and I had this very same discussion about another Carlton player who was a bit like this in years gone by, how things have changed, I agree they can change for Dow as well. He won't find a better example of that the person he should look up to!
If Dow played like Motlop, he’d be in the 22. Motlop is always at or near the top of the pressure acts tally, along with Durdin and Honey (in Owies absence).
Dow had a relatively quiet game against GWS but kicked two goals (he was tagged). His clearance work is generally good, he links up well but his disposal sometimes lets him down. Clearly, there’s something missing that he needs to address if he is to make the 22. I think that it’s lack of defensive effort and a one dimensional game that’s got him 7th or 8th on our midfield pecking order.
O’Keefe had him playing as a high half forward earlier in the season but that didn’t work.
I’m sure that Dow knows exactly what he needs to do to get a game. He must be pretty close if he’s regularly named as an emergency (although there weren’t many other options for a while) but there must be a box he hasn’t ticked yet.
Dow has no desire to chase down defensively just not good enough at AFL level hope to be proven wrong.
It's as simple as Dow's disposal is not as good as the guys selected ahead of him.
Dow has no desire to chase down defensively just not good enough at AFL level hope to be proven wrong.
Dow still plays U18 football, O'Brien for example has changed how he played and understands senior footy is about pressure acts as well as being on the end of some cheap ball and the good players are still doing something when they don't have the ball.
If Dow played like Motlop, he’d be in the 22. Motlop is always at or near the top of the pressure acts tally, along with Durdin and Honey (in Owies absence).
Again, not when the ball isn't around him.
When the ball isn't in range of a possession Motlop is pretty ordinary, Durdin and Owies work their guts out to control and close up the space around them, Motlop is a spectator. In this regard Dow and Motlop are similar. You find Durdin and Owies chasing to FB to defend a score despite both playing FP.
Motlop is a newbie he has an excuse, Dow has been in the system years and years! Dow spent seasons under BB who is considered an A-Grade defence first development coach, yet the aspect of Dow's game that lets him down is defence! Mind you Dow isn't the first or last to suffer this sort of criticism, some will just never have it!
It looks to me like under Voss effort is a non-negotiable, maybe Motlop gets a free pass as a newbie and Dow doesn't!
I remember about this time last season fans on this very site arguing with Kruddler and myself about our criticisms of Cripps not chasing, now we can no longer make that same criticism, yet I suspect some fans will still deny there was ever an issue! For me it's an example of how players of any stature can change, the why is irrelevant!
Again, not when the ball isn't around him.
When the ball isn't in range of a possession Motlop is pretty ordinary, Durdin and Owies work their guts out to control and close up the space around them, Motlop is a spectator. In this regard Dow and Motlop are similar. You find Durdin and Owies chasing to FB to defend a score despite both playing FP.
Motlop is a newbie he has an excuse, Dow has been in the system years and years! Dow spent seasons under BB who is considered an A-Grade defence first development coach, yet the aspect of Dow's game that lets him down is defence! Mind you Dow isn't the first or last to suffer this sort of criticism, some will just never have it!
It looks to me like under Voss effort is a non-negotiable, maybe Motlop gets a free pass as a newbie and Dow doesn't!
I remember about this time last season fans on this very site arguing with Kruddler and myself about our criticisms of Cripps not chasing, now we can no longer make that same criticism, yet I suspect some fans will still deny there was ever an issue! For me it's an example of how players of any stature can change, the why is irrelevant!
You haven't noticed Motlop's presence, pressure and tackles up the ground LP? He is working as hard as anyone but it's not always paying off for him at this stage. However, he is still meeting Vossy's requirements off the ball, and I'm sure that Dow has a way to go to get there.
Cripps may have made some minor adjustments to his defensive game but it's our relentless pressure and team defence that has stopped his opponents running off him (as well as not playing injured). Cripps has kicked more goals this season (and probably should be nudging 30 rather 20), but, once again, that's a team outcome rather than Cripps doing something different.
Pittonet in for Honey for me.
Assuming Weitering and Walsh are good to go and Hewett still out....I can't see too many more changes needed? Silvagni can play as a permanent pressure forward and take Honey's spot which still leaves Durdin and Motlop as the two smalls with Fisher alternating too. Cottrell, Setterfield and O'Brien probably didn't do too much wrong last week and Cottrell hit the scoreboard too....all 3 got the ball up and down the ground.
We'd still have 7 defenders with Newman, Weitering, Plowman, Saad, Young, Docherty and McGovern.
Pittonet in for Honey for me.
Assuming Weitering and Walsh are good to go and Hewett still out....I can't see too many more changes needed? Silvagni can play as a permanent pressure forward and take Honey's spot which still leaves Durdin and Motlop as the two smalls with Fisher alternating too. Cottrell, Setterfield and O'Brien probably didn't do too much wrong last week and Cottrell hit the scoreboard too....all 3 got the ball up and down the ground.
We'd still have 7 defenders with Newman, Weitering, Plowman, Saad, Young, Docherty and McGovern.
I thought that Honey worked his way into the game and was important in the last quarter. He would be stiff to miss out, and so would Motlop, but I think that one of them has to make way for Pittonet.
The only other change I’d consider is bringing Owies back … but who goes out?
We’ve still got a sizeable injury list but we’re starting to have genuine competition for places in the 22 🙂
You haven't noticed Motlop's presence, pressure and tackles up the ground LP?
I have noticed some highlights, but I'm not star struck by the kid at all. Motlop is a work in progress, excluding one game that is different from all the others he has played, he is someway off being a 24x7 footballer we need to be a serious threat, but no doubt he has shown he is capable, he has shown that he has another level and some tricks.
I'll maintain that if someone like Cottrell, LoB or Owies worked as little or as intermittently as Motlop, and scored as little as Motlop, most fans would be all over them. Some people will read that as bagging Motlop, for me it's just realistic about where his progress is at!
I have noticed some highlights, but I'm not star struck by the kid at all. Motlop is a work in progress, excluding one game that is different from all the others he has played, he is someway off being a 24x7 footballer we need to be a serious threat, but no doubt he has shown he is capable, he has shown that he has another level and some tricks.
I'll maintain that if someone like Cottrell, LoB or Owies worked as little or as intermittently as Motlop, and scored as little as Motlop, most fans would be all over them. Some people will read that as bagging Motlop, for me it's just realistic about where his progress is at!
With the exception of Owies LP, that's comparing apples with pomegranites. Sticking with Owies, he's in his third season and is a mature 25 year old who has played high level sport as an adult since 2016. Motlop is nearly 19 and, by his own admission, didn't know what had hit him during his first Carlton training session. Bearing that in mind, their stats for this season are:
Owies Motlop
13 Games 8
6.1 Kicks 4.9
3.4 Handballs 3.8
9.5 Disposals 8.6
2.8 Marks 2.5
0.8 Goals 0.9
0.6 Behinds 0.6
3.8 Tackles 2.4
1.8 Inside 50s 1.8
0.7 Goal Assists 0
1.0 Frees For 0.1
0.6 Frees Against 1.0
4.2 Contested Possessions 3.0
5.2 Uncontested Possessions 5.5
7.0 Effective Disposals 6.0
73.7% Disposal Efficiency % 69.8%
1.4 Clangers 1.9
0.3 Contested Marks 0.1
0.8 Marks Inside 50 0.6
0.2 Clearances 0
0.2 Rebound 50s 0.1
0.8 One Percenters 0.1
0.1 Bounces 0.4
76.0 Time On Ground % 68.9
0 Centre Clearances 0
0.2 Stoppage Clearances 0
4.4 Score Involvements 3.1
146.2 Metres Gained 123.5
1.6 Turnovers 2.4
1.3 Intercepts 0.2
2.0 Tackles Inside 50 1.5
Not a great deal of difference, considering they're both still learning the caper and Owies has a head start.
F-Me
In: M.Owies, M.Pittonet
Out: J.Silvagni (omitted), J.Honey (managed), J.Newnes (Medi-Sub)
Wouldn't have picked that in a million years
In: M.Owies, M.Pittonet
Out: J.Silvagni (omitted), J.Honey (managed), J.Newnes (Medi-Sub)
Not sure i agree with SOS, i guess he's just a ruckman now?
Never thought I'd see a game this year where Jack Silvagni was dropped! Busted his @rse for most of the season plugging gaps and rucking against the odds. Glad Owies is back but can we carry Durdin, Owies, Motlop and Fisher all in the same side?
We deserve to lose for sheer stupidity.
F-Me
In: M.Owies, M.Pittonet
Out: J.Silvagni (omitted), J.Honey (managed), J.Newnes (Medi-Sub)
Wouldn't have picked that in a million years
I like it. I am a massive JSOS fan but playing in the ruck has stuffed up his rhythm.
His kicking and decision making has been off in recent times. One week reset will do him good imo. We need him in top form as link man between mids and forwards which I think is his best role. He has been interrupted without on field continuity too much his form has been down. The tough decision that had to be made.
Agree Mad....I don't wanna see one player not giving 100% or shirking a contest this week....that's what JSOS brings to the table every single time he runs out. He might not be the best player or the most skilful player but you know you'll get maximum effort every week.
He must be managed or injured, can't believe Jack was dropped on form given how much he has sacrificed his own game to be a part time ruckman.
Be interesting if Jack plays magoos...
Reckon he needs a rest. Crows are a quick side and Owies makes sense...
Last few weeks, as per usual, JSOS has busted a boiler but he has looked ...bluntly... knackered. So, not surprised but would have thought, 'managed.' Maybe there were some things in the expectations of his job that he didn't adhere to (that we wouldn't be aware of)?
If SOS is in at PP and I was on the MC... I'd give him a wide berth, perhaps visits some relos interstate!
He must be managed or injured, can't believe Jack was dropped on form given how much he has sacrificed his own game to be a part time ruckman.
That's exactly what has happened.
He must be managed or injured, can't believe Jack was dropped on form given how much he has sacrificed his own game to be a part time ruckman.
I would have rather seen managed than omitted.
Last few weeks, as per usual, JSOS has busted a boiler but he has looked ...bluntly... knackered. So, not surprised but would have thought, 'managed.' Maybe there were some things in the expectations of his job that he didn't adhere to (that we wouldn't be aware of)?
If SOS is in at PP and I was on the MC... I'd give him a wide berth, perhaps visits some relos interstate!
SOS looks knackered every game.
SOS looks knackered after the warm up
SOS looks knackered after doing up his boots.
SOS looks knackered.....its just him.
Having said that, SOS makes the perfect sub.
Can fill in wherever you need him too.
I'm sure he could use the rest.
SOS looks knackered every game.
SOS looks knackered after the warm up
SOS looks knackered after doing up his boots.
SOS looks knackered.....its just him.
Having said that, SOS makes the perfect sub.
Can fill in wherever you need him too.
I'm sure he could use the rest.
No, I mean more than usual... not laconic, just not as effective, almost exhausted and not getting to contests he normally would.
We have been down this path before with Jack. We drop him because on paper do we need a slow under sized 4th marking tall ?
On paper no we don't. Reality is SOS is a lot better than his profile. He leads hard, has strong hands, chases and tackles despite being slow. He fights for the ball on the deck, he has qualities that the other forwards don't have.
No, I mean more than usual... not laconic, just not as effective, almost exhausted and not getting to contests he normally would.
Agree his form is down no denying it. He sacrificed his own game for the team thats why we love him. But in terms of form and team balance it was the right decision. Good insight that this coaching group will not hesitate to make the tough decisions moving forward and we need that to keep everyone on their toes.
He must be managed or injured, can't believe Jack was dropped on form given how much he has sacrificed his own game to be a part time ruckman.
I hope that is the case EB. “Omitted” seems a very savage way to put it.
Omitted is dropped.
Omitted is dropped.
I know very well what it means.
Hope this doesn't destabilise the team. Omitted? Surely a "managed" maybe a typo?
Hopefully he's not named as the sub as that's a bit of an insult.....a sub could be called into the game in the first 5 minutes....if he needs a rest, then leave him out altogether.
Hopefully he's not named as the sub as that's a bit of an insult.....a sub could be called into the game in the first 5 minutes....if he needs a rest, then leave him out altogether.
He’s named as an emergency.
This is close to the best side we've fielded all year.
Hopefully he's not named as the sub as that's a bit of an insult.....a sub could be called into the game in the first 5 minutes....if he needs a rest, then leave him out altogether.
I suspect Dow has deserved a medi-sub gig. Hayes can resume in the Magoos this week.
A different take on Jack Silvagni being dropped.
Lets look at how the crows have named their backline....(and their heights)
Butts (198)
Worrell (194)
Murray (193)
Dawson (192)
Smith (189)
Hamill (187)
Contrast that to how we've named our forward line (height) + [height differential]
McKay (204) [+6]
De Koning (203) [+9]
Curnow (192) [-1]
Owies (180) [-12]
Fisher (179) [-10]
Durdin (173) [-14]
*Motlop (179) [-10....minimum]
They seem to be very 'average' in height.
Whereas we can stretch them for height for our marking targets
and
We can outmanouvre them with our smaller guys.
Having Jack in that forwardline seems to help them and give them better matchups.
If Jack was ‘managed’, he wouldn’t play in the magoos and couldn’t be an emergency.
I suspect that he’ll come into the 22 if there’s a late out. If not, he’ll be the sub.
I’m sure that Jack will have been told exactly why he’s not in the 22 and when he’s expected back.
Jack Silvagni is one of those players that is "better than the sum of his parts". He doesn't do anything spectacularly well, but he busts his arse week in, week out and always does the team thing. I'm surprised he has been omitted (dropped). Out managed (rested) would not have been a surprise though He is a must inclusion in the starting 22 IMO.
He'll either be the sub or an emergency IMHO. You can't play someone after they've been managed.
No, I mean more than usual... not laconic, just not as effective, almost exhausted and not getting to contests he normally would.
I agree with this....half a step off the pace then not as effective and gives away some frees.
Still want him back in next week though.
He's being managed surely, otherwise this is a senseless omission.
I think it's about time we address the elephant in the room. CRIPPS.
Fair to say he has been dogshiit for 2 months now. He is the one that needs a rest for finals not JSOS.
I know each week what JSOS will bring, Cripps not so much.
Tell me a more overrated player in the comp right now that is not getting hammered by the press because of what he has produced in the past. Time for people to just admit it. We've seen the best of him and should've been traded him last year. Walsh is the standout leader and soon enough they will recognise it and move on.
Sending the wrong message dropping heart and soul players like JSOS.
That's my rant.
Hope this doesn't destabilise the team. Omitted? Surely a "managed" maybe a typo?
he was dropped, he will be the sub
This is no surprise, it was always going to happen, it's the difference between what fans want and the brutal reality of AFL.
Fans would have SoJ picked 1st week in and week out, but in the reality of AFL he has real world limitations.
Anybody who thought we would carry SoJ, on top of already having BigH, Charlie, Pitto, TDK, Gov, Weiters and Young is crazy.
Team balance isn't just a throw away term, it really means something!
Give him a different surname, look at the same results and circumstances in the hard reality, and most fans would be calling for exactly what has happened. When they deny it they are just lying to themself.
Maybe we don't like it, but it's the reality of the team being in a better place.
That's my rant.
And it makes about as much sense as IBWT’s better efforts ::)
He's being managed surely, otherwise this is a senseless omission.
I think it's about time we address the elephant in the room. CRIPPS.
Fair to say he has been dogshiit for 2 months now. He is the one that needs a rest for finals not JSOS.
I know each week what JSOS will bring, Cripps not so much.
Tell me a more overrated player in the comp right now that is not getting hammered by the press because of what he has produced in the past. Time for people to just admit it. We've seen the best of him and should've been traded him last year. Walsh is the standout leader and soon enough they will recognise it and move on.
Sending the wrong message dropping heart and soul players like JSOS.
That's my rant.
Drop the captain you reckon? This aint Stephen Coniglio mate, whilst he has been a little off, you dont drop a leader like Crippa.
You sure that post wasn't chemically enhanced?
Cripps hasnt been brilliant like he was early in the season but is still influential and has been good at important times of recent games
imo plus I think his captaincy has improved.
If you want value for money as a player and as captain .....not....then as GTC suggests check out Steven Coniglio who has been deplorable ever since he signed that massive contract.
Cripps should be AA this season along with several other Carlton players.....
He team is in a better place when players can be dropped. Have a rest and concentrate on recovery before another important stint approaching finals. Even when it is to give better balance it helps the entire team. Seasons past we played players into the ground and had far too many players off the pace. Carrying too many niggles and performing below standard. We must be heading in the right direction as a club.
This is no surprise, it was always going to happen, it's the difference between what fans want and the brutal reality of AFL.
Fans would have SoJ picked 1st week in and week out, but in the reality of AFL he has real world limitations.
Anybody who thought we would carry SoJ, on top of already having BigH, Charlie, Pitto, TDK, Gov, Weiters and Young is crazy.
Team balance isn't just a throw away term, it really means something!
Give him a different surname, look at the same results and circumstances in the hard reality, and most fans would be calling for exactly what has happened. When they deny it they are just lying to themself.
Maybe we don't like it, but it's the reality of the team being in a better place.
So, if it was the GF would you still drop JSOS?
So, if it was the GF would you still drop JSOS?
All depends on the composition of the opposition. Against Melbourne, Richmond, Collingwood, etc with 2 recognized ruckman, you play Brad and Tom, otherwise you can experiment a bit more.
So, if it was the GF would you still drop JSOS?
Prior to the dropping, the answer would have been no effin way. Now there will be justification for it.
So, if it was the GF would you still drop JSOS?
He's not an automatic selection, so like most players it would depends on the opposition, the fitness of the list and the expected conditions on the day.
He played with all of those talls in rd 1 and 2. Omac instead of Young.
When the spine are all fit SoJ is not part of the spine.
When the spine is all fit then he is then competing with Setterfield, Cottrell, Plowman, Newnes, Newman, LoB, etc., etc for a utility role. Given he's hardly played a moment in D50 then he's unlikely to displace the defenders, that means he has to compete with the deep running types, Cottrell, Setterfield and LoB.
I presume fans don't have him kicking a midfielder or small forward out of the squad?
Just so brutal on JSOS. I love the guy for his efforts and what he has done while Pitto has been injured, but I must admit when I did my best 22 at the start of the season I struggled to find him a place. My heart says he must be in the side, but my head says where?
When the spine are all fit SoJ is not part of the spine.
When the spine is all fit then he is then competing with Setterfield, Cottrell, Plowman, Newnes, Newman, LoB, etc., etc for a utility role. Given he's hardly played a moment in D50 then he's unlikely to displace the defenders, that means he has to compete with the deep running types, Cottrell, Setterfield and LoB.
I presume fans don't have him kicking a midfielder or small forward out of the squad?
He plays half forward and plays the position better than Owies and Durdin combined.
He plays half forward and plays the position better than Owies and Durdin combined.
Not really, that depends on a highly selective version of what you think the modern AFL HFF should be.
We've missed Owies deep running over the last few weeks, it has detrimentally affected the way the likes of Durdin, LoB, Cerra and Fisher play. SoJ doesn't bring that deep running, I get that SoJ plays the lead up marking HFF better than Owies or Durdin, but Charlie has been the one filling that role in recent weeks and now we have TDK to rest forward also.
We can't rotate TDK, Pitto and the other talls off the bench because we are already a team short on pace, and the talls occupying the bench leave us short of run and aerobic capacity. That leaves the MC with a choice, TDK or SoJ, and clearly TDK gets the vote at the moment. Put another tall on the bench and guys like Saad, LoB, Doc, Durdin, Fisher, Walsh and Owies suffer.
SoJ isn't competing with Owies or Durdin for a SF or HFF position, SoJ is not a pacey crumbing forward.
Earlier this season / pre-season I mentioned this was going to happen at some stage and forum members lambasted me for it, but any blind Freddy who isn't smitten with the Silvagni surname could see this coming. Now they are treating SoJ being dropped like a team and club death sentence, but it's not terminal, it's no different to Newnes, Cottrell, Satterfield or LoB being rotated through selection.
SoJ wasn't the first and won't be the last fan favourite to find himself in the VFL for a period of time, we are a strong list growing in strength each week and non-core players should not expect residency in the AFL team.
Nobody can argue either way, be it for or against, that making such decisions does not come with a cost!
Jack is the 3rd tall forward and it's a important position.
McGovern couldn't handle it and has been sent down back and as Fritsch from Melbourne has shown a good 3rd tall forward helps win premierships.
Mind boggling decision to drop Jack and we have a done an Andrew Walker on him by using him as a bandaid then discarding him when he was played out of form by sacrificing himself for the team .
Jack is the 3rd tall forward and it's a important position.
McGovern couldn't handle it and has been sent down back and as Fritsch from Melbourne has shown a good 3rd tall forward helps win premierships.
Our 3rd talls are not like Bailey Fritsch, Fritsch is both quick and an elite aerobic runner as well as being strong overhead like our talls, probably the only runner we have that is comparable is Cottrell.
The progress of Young has change our team dynamic significantly, fans need to accept it.
Gov, Young, Weitering have the D50 stitched up, BigH, Charlie and probably TDK have the F50 stitched up.
While TDK is in the mix SoJ won't be a ruck option.
Suspect the only place SoJ can compete is on the wing against Setterfield, Newnes or Cottrell, but SoJ is going to have to take his run up a whole new level just to keep up, just as his team-mates have done to improve in 2022.
Even that wing opportunity becomes limited when all of Cripps, Walsh, Cerra, Kennedy, Hewett and Fisher play and we toy starting Walsh, Hewett, Fisher or Cerra on a wing at times.
I'm a bit surprised Motlop retained his spot.
There is a lot of complaining about SoJ being dropped, but I still haven't read a viable argument for who he replaces in that side outside of bad form or an injury.
He just needs to find his touch - his work rate is elite. His one touch game has been very fumbly of late, disposal by foot and decision making has been a bit off and turned the ball over a few times. I look forward seeing Jack in VFL to regain form and win his position back in the side. I reckon he will be back in 2 weeks.
One of the big things I have noticed about this season under Voss is that players are given roles and the expectations are set for those roles and they are competing with others on the list for the team spots available for each role. Wings, small forwards, mid/tall backs, inside mids etc. They aren't playing players in the positions they aren't slated for, mids played as forwards, for example, like in previous years. That's one of the reasons I can see why Dow isn't getting a game. JSOS is a product of this, he is a tall forward competing with Charlie, McKay and now TDK, they just can't fit them all in the side and they won't play them out of position, unless by absolute necessity, (SOS rucking or Kemp as a tall back). Even if you categorise JSOS as a 3rd tall forward there is still only one place in the side for that position and they have gone with TDK this week.
I reckon their formula is
7 Backs, 2 tall 5 mix of lockdown/running/Intercept
3 Wings
7 Forwards 3 tall 4 small/Medium (Sometimes one of these will be a mid coming of Half Forwrd like Walsh has been doing)
1 Ruck (plus Backup from tall Fwd)
4 Mids (Mostly inside mids with run coming from wingers)
As Mad indicated, we had all those talls in Round 1 against Richmond....AND played Silvagni and Martin. Silvagni was going at better a goal a game in those first half a dozen rounds until Pittonet went down. I still think he could come in and play in place of one of the smalls....probably Motlop. Silvagni might not be as quick but reckon his forward half pressure chasing and tackling is up there with anyone else in the F50.
It's hard to see where Martin now squeezes his way back into the side.
SOJ is a forward pocket that is capable of providing a lot of link between the forwards and the back half of the ground.
He can pinch hit key forward, and can also play as a midfielder.
He is a very rounded individual and plays like his Grandfather and has a team oriented ethos and is only getting a chop out this week, because finals arent won in July.
As Mad indicated, we had all those talls in Round 1 against Richmond....AND played Silvagni and Martin. Silvagni was going at better a goal a game in those first half a dozen rounds until Pittonet went down. I still think he could come in and play in place of one of the smalls....probably Motlop. Silvagni might not be as quick but reckon his forward half pressure chasing and tackling is up there with anyone else in the F50.
It's hard to see where Martin now squeezes his way back into the side.
We had the 5 talls, (Pitto, TDK, Charlie,Harry, JSOS) for the first 3 rounds of the season, not since. I just think with TDK's development since Pitto went down has meant they think 4 talls are enough and we are better off playing an extra small, hence Durds, Owies, Motlop play
Love to see how blue chip forwards Harry and Charlie would be going now if they were getting smashed in the ruck for half a season. I suspect based on their fragile history they wouldn't be going.
We had the 5 talls, (Pitto, TDK, Charlie,Harry, JSOS) for the first 3 rounds of the season, not since. I just think with TDK's development since Pitto went down has meant they think 4 talls are enough and we are better off playing an extra small, hence Durds, Owies, Motlop play
The fan reaction is funny, to me this is our MC / coaching panel addressing the issues we saw earlier in the season when we were losing big leads due to a lack of run.
Fans actually called for this change, now they have got it they are complaining!
Love to see how blue chip forwards Harry and Charlie would be going now if they were getting smashed in the ruck for half a season. I suspect based on their fragile history they wouldn't be going.
BigH has been rucking the F50 stoppages for a few weeks now.
How is smashing a Coleman medallist or a potential Coleman medallist a solution to your SoJ problems?
Love to see how blue chip forwards Harry and Charlie would be going now if they were getting smashed in the ruck for half a season. I suspect based on their fragile history they wouldn't be going.
You may well be right, he has done what he had to do for the team and is probably suffering a bit for it now. Love the bloke and hope he gets back.
BigH has been rucking the F50 stoppages for a few weeks now.
How is smashing a Coleman medallist or a potential Coleman medallist a solution to your SoJ problems?
I don't have any problems with Jack. He plays his position fine, ruck not so much but he gave it his all. If only we had a 200cm plus forward who could have given TDK a chop out.
BigH has been rucking the F50 stoppages for a few weeks now.
How is smashing a Coleman medallist or a potential Coleman medallist a solution to your SoJ problems?
Harry is fairly hopeless in the ruck, we had Jack bodying up Pruess and holding his own. Unless Jack is injured or just stuffed it's a weird decision for supporters to get their head around. If Jacks problem is pace then I don't see how Pittonet is the fix...
When he’s not rucking, Jack plays as third tall forward and pinch hits as key forward when Harry or Charlie have a spell.
He has taken more marks on the lead inside 50 than any of our other forwards and is also very effective when leading up the ground and kicking inside 50.
It’s nonsense to suggest that he’s competing with our midfielders for a spot in the 22. His only competition for third tall is McGovern, or the rucks if we go with two rucks. Of course, Jack played as 3rd tall forward when we had both Pitto and De Koning at the start of the season.
While I’m disappointed that Jack is out of the 22, I understand the thinking behind it. Jack should benefit from a light workload this weekend and will be back, probably against Brisbane.
Isn’t it great they we have genuine competition for places in the 22 and the omission of players leads to much debate.
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/carter-takes-aim-at-cochrane-as-tassie-tensions-rise-ceglar-s-chance-to-put-his-hand-up-20220729-p5b5lm.html
‘Obvious disappointment’: Voss on Silvagni axing
Carlton coach Michael Voss is hoping Jack Silvagni’s surprise axing will push the versatile Blue to become better.
The 24-year-old was a shock omission for Carlton’s trip to face the Crows at Adelaide Oval on Saturday night.
Silvagni has produced arguably the most consistent campaign of his seven-season career, playing a valuable role up forward and as a back-up ruckman. But with experienced ruckman Marc Pittonet having recovered from a long-term knee injury, Silvagni is the unlucky player to make way.
“It’s pretty clear that we’ve decided to play the two rucks, and that means one of them [Tom De Koning or Pittonet] is going to have to spend more time forward,” Voss told reporters on Friday.
“There was obvious disappointment [from Silvagni]. Whenever you talk to a player saying they’re not in the team, there’s obvious disappointment. But he appreciates that we’re in a healthy position and hopefully in our experience, it pushes people to be better again.”
If Motlop and Durdin were a couple of years older and Owies was a bit more tougher I could see why Jack's spot could be in trouble but we are not at that point.
There you go. Dropped for form.
Debate goes on I guess. Still hard to fathom when you consider neither of Durdin, Motlop or Owies (out injured) have been in great form in the last 4 weeks or so...yet the MC prefer 3 small forwards, together with Fisher. No doubt JSOS would be "disappointed" given his efforts.
If we lose to Adelaide, Silvagni's omission won't be the reason, but it'll be another talking point.
SOS has stunk it up for at least the last half dozen games now.
Yes - he gives his all, yes - he’s being asked to play out of position, yes - he’s CFC royalty, but seriously, we’ve all been bleating for the last 20 years that certain players seemed to be untouchable (think no. 1 draft picks) and that this culture of complacency was ruining the club. Now, FINALLY, Voss is putting it out there - near enough is not good enough. I’m loving it.
LP’s posts on the subject are spot on. It’s all about the team. Let the teenage girls have their Twitter meltdowns. I’m here for the premierships.
Simple question is this...
If Jack comes in, who would make way for him.
Follow up question, how does that effect our midfield rotations as a result?
90% of people will take a small forward out.
That would basically force Fisher to spend more time forward and limit his midfield time, which he relished last week.
Having 2 key forwards, 2 rucks and Jack means one of them has to be on the bench at all times, which means less midfield rotations, which means a less than optimal midfield performance.
Prove otherwise.
SOS has stunk it up for at least the last half dozen games now.
Yes - he gives his all, yes - he’s being asked to play out of position, yes - he’s CFC royalty, but seriously, we’ve all been bleating for the last 20 years that certain players seemed to be untouchable (think no. 1 draft picks) and that this culture of complacency was ruining the club. Now, FINALLY, Voss is putting it out there - near enough is not good enough. I’m loving it.
LP’s posts on the subject are spot on. It’s all about the team. Let the teenage girls have their Twitter meltdowns. I’m here for the premierships.
Really?
At 194cm and 91kg, Jack has competed strongly against much larger ruckmen; he conceded 12cm and 21kg to Preuss. Despite that, over the last half a dozen games he has won 25 hitouts, kicked 4 goals (same as Durdin), had 35 score involvements, 27 inside 50s, 20 tackles (6 inside 50), 14 clearances, 10 intercepts, 12 1%ers and gained 1750 metres. I don't think any of our forwards can match him over all of those facets of the game.
I get why he has been omitted but he has consistently been among our better players all season, including the last half dozen games.
Since when was Jack considered a ruckman who plays forward?...bit like saying Shaun Grigg was a ruckman when he finished his career or Marlion Pickett is now a certified ruckman because Richmond tried to reinvent him as Grigg Mk2.
Its a bit like a nurse removing a wart on someones head and now being expected to perform the duties of neuro surgeon fulltime.
I dont get why this game either, we are not playing Melbourne with Gawn and Jackson, its the Crows and the two Rileys who are not exactly the cream of the ruck crop....
Voss pulled some wrong levers at Brisbane trying to be clever and when its not broke you dont need to fix it imho and I dont see anything broken or not working with Jack Silvagni.
EB....looking at final teams, appears that Tilthorpe is out injured.
And Doedee out injured as well.
Play this well and get some midfield domination and our forwards should have a night out.
Voss's last game if we lose. >:(
Seriously though, Jack has looked tired and frustrated in recent weeks.
The rest will do him good...freshen him up.
He is one of our most versatile players and as such even if there is not a place for him in the starting on field line up he fits better than any on the bench.
He's also a good choice for medical sub and it still wouldn't surprise to see him in that role on the weekend.
It was the right week to try it seeing as we're only playing Adelaide, I think we will all be screaming for Jack to be back in the side after we face the Lions and the Dees.
Considering our percentage, we really need to go there and whack the Crows.
Considering our percentage, we really need to go there and whack the Crows.
% is largely irrelevent unless we somehow manage to beat the dees and/or lions. Then it may mean something.
Considering our percentage, we really need to go there and whack the Crows.
We dont whack anyone, that's been our problem all year. Two 50 plus pt winning margins despite all those I50s and the Coleman medal leader.
% is largely irrelevent unless we somehow manage to beat the dees and/or lions. Then it may mean something.
I did a ladder predictor and changed our results for the following outcomes.
4 wins = 3rd
3 wins = 5th (thought it would get us in the 4)
2 wins = 6th
1 win = 8th
0 wins = 8th ( happy with that)
I did a ladder predictor and changed our results for the following outcomes.
4 wins = 3rd
3 wins = 5th (thought it would get us in the 4)
2 wins = 6th
1 win = 8th
0 wins = 8th ( happy with that)
You need to do it plenty of times to get an accurate picture.
I did the auto thing the other day and it had us finishing 2nd in one run, and 10th the next! Obviously extremely unlikely in both.
Most likely scenario is still us vs the pies.
Apparently Jack made the trip to Adelaide: travelling emergency or sub?
Either way, he isn’t required to “regain form” in the magoos and he should get a chance to ease some niggles.
I did a ladder predictor and changed our results for the following outcomes.
4 wins = 3rd
3 wins = 5th (thought it would get us in the 4)
2 wins = 6th
1 win = 8th
0 wins = 8th ( happy with that)
The only issue is other results. There will be surprises... this is why this little black duck is, like the players, only thinking about Crowmunchers.
Apparently Jack made the trip to Adelaide: travelling emergency or sub?
Either way, he isn’t required to “regain form” in the magoos and he should get a chance to ease some niggles.
Makes sense, on reflection, that he'd be the medi-sub. Perhaps the club sees it as a squad of 23 or 24 with all equally important and the word 'omitted' is just something required for the media. Hope he is the sub and isn't required and gets a rest. Like TDK, his efforts since losing Pitto have been Herculean.
With almost a full strength squad to choose from, we are now in a position to pick a team that best suits the opposition in that day. The core of the team will be consistent however there will be various tweeks depending on who we are up against.
It is also naive if we think that we will not have injuries over the next 7 weeks as well, that will probably see call ups to the likes of Martin, Williams, Dow, Kemp, Stocker, Silvagni, Honey etc.
We are looking in good shape..... and our No 1 ruckman is not battle weary, he's fresh and ready to go!
Apparently Jack made the trip to Adelaide: travelling emergency or sub?
Either way, he isn’t required to “regain form” in the magoos and he should get a chance to ease some niggles.
I wonder if we are playing ducks and drakes with Adelaide and he plays.
Silvagni officially the sub.