Well, well, and there it is!
Like most to the cheap crap copies of quality Western goods that China frequently dumps in our domestic market, killing Australian jobs in the process, even the high end space vehicle "Jade Rabbit" has bit the dust.
It lasted a mere fraction of the life of it's NASA competitors, surprise surprise, and now is doomed to be yet more industrial waste.
When will we in "The West" learn, you get what you pay for? We better remember this as we wait patiently in the dole queues, before returning home to our faltering 155cm TVs and noisy refrigerator in our self disassembling car!
@LP
Yes we can scoff atm LP. However when I was a lot younger, Japanese goods were the subject of ridicule, even their cars, and Made In Japan was a byeword for cr@p.
However, they stuck at it and went on to produce some of the best quality and most reliable goods on the market. Now Japan is associated with quality - in fact, based on US doctrines they were the masters of TQM.
However, they stuck at it and went on to produce some of the best quality and most reliable goods on the market. Now Japan is associated with quality - in fact, based on US doctrines they were the masters of TQM.
However, Japan has/is moving most of it's electronics factories to the Chinese mainland and the quality is rubbish. So much so that I know of one company that operates two factories, a Japanese factory manufacturing for the US and Japanese or other high dollar value markets, and the Chinese factory selling on the gray market or low dollar markets.
If you go to some of the big electrical chain stores you find that "The Specials" of these "Japanese" electronics list "Made in China" on the box when the normally priced premium product lists "Product of Japan".
A good example are camera lens. Japanese made units are all glass and metal, they have significant weight when you pick them up and they feel solidly built. The very same model lens from the Chinese factory has plastic where much of the glass and metal used to be and often fails after a short operating life! Of course the two units do not sell for the same price, but that is not the point. In Australia I have found both types selling for the same price.
Another good example is plasma display panels, the Japanese or European products are far superior to the Chinese equivalents. But you can buy the same TV at the same price from two different chain stores and one will have the Japanese/Euro panel while the other has the Chinese panel. The predicted life of the Japanese/Euro panel were 80% luminosity in 10 years, and after ten years the manufacturer revised that up to 20 years. The Chinese panels failed reaching 80% luminosity in just 4 years.
You get what you pay for!
@LP
Sure things have changed now and a lot of Japanese branded goods are made outside of Japan due to economics of labour. However, up until that happened, maybe starting about 20 years ago, "Made in Japan" or merely a Japanese brand was shorthand for good quality.
Give the Chinese some time and they will probably eventually reach those high standards, as the Japanese did - but in general sure, you get what you pay for. However, breaking into markets usually means starting at the cheaper end. Would be a bit foolhardy to start by taking on market leaders in quality head-on.
Give the Chinese some time and they will probably eventually reach those high standards, as the Japanese did - but in general sure, you get what you pay for. However, breaking into markets usually means starting at the cheaper end. Would be a bit foolhardy to start by taking on market leaders in quality head-on.
Cannot see it happening.
I deal with both countries, one country treats everything they make as a work of art and expect things to last until they are no longer required. The other is focused on profit ahead of quality and will cut corners at the drop of a hat to increase profit.
One culture takes pride in what they do, the other honors corporate deceit as a good business practice.
@LP
People used to say the same about the Japanese i.e. they make crape and they'll never get any better.
All I can say to you is don't be so sure, and don't bank on it - those kind of calls can prove to be expensive. Just my opinion.
I have precious little experience in this area... however...
I did consult for a while to a large co. that licensed small fry consumer products to supermarkets etc.
They could always get the product done cheapest in China. And often had to get stuff re-done due to dangerous BPA levels in the plastics and toxins in the paints.
However, I believe the political climate is changing in China to a more 'western' model. That could be good... or a disaster (on so many levels!!!).
The biggest concern for me regarding China is it's continued human rights violations against its labour force. Because the west seem content to turn a blind eye, I expect China will remain the manufacturing capital of the world as the natural flow of GDP will not be impacted by an increased cost of labour that would happen in almost any other economy.
There are still many things that you could point a finger at with China but things have changed dramatically in the last 10 - 20 years. The level of sophistication of their goods has improved dramatically, moving up from pretty basic manufactured products to quite advanced electronics etc.
There's no reason I can see that this can't continue.
Their biggest challenges will no doubt be in dealing with the rising expectations of the populace both materially and regarding personal and political freedoms.
A good friend of mine imports and services medical equipment used in X ray labs, scanners, ultrasound ,blood testing equipment....its the same gear you are all relying on to give you accurate results when your Doctor refers you for tests.....most of the good gear came from Europe... Germany, Finland etc etc...high precision and very accurate.
Also very expensive and the technicians/service costs also very expensive....but it was a very exclusive field of work and medical labs and clinics had no choice but to buy the best.
Enter the Chinese...no one copies equipment like the Chinese and no one makes cheap copies like the Chinese.....half the price but also half the accuracy and reliability.
The medical profession is struggling in these days of high insurance and litigation and everyday more labs are switching to the cheap Chinese gear to cut costs....more mistakes are being made and more results are innaccurate with plenty of false positives for all manner of conditions.
If you get a bad result make sure you have another test at a different provider to be sure....
Great Wall/Chery motor cars....great prices too but I'd rather buy car that didnt have asbestos gaskets in the engine and exhaust areas, but they dont tell mug punters about those details
Bottom line is lives are cheap in China and they manufacture goods for the world based on that premise.....
@EB1
Correct Elwood - and if you go back to the 1950s what you describe is exactly how Japan was. They started by copying, built their expertise and then in many lines of goods they took over the market segments with quality others just could not match for the price. For instance, many early Jananese cars, and I'm talking 1960s and into the 1970s, were crape but got hugely better as time went on.
Enter the Chinese, who also have the added advantage of a massive home market - watch this space!
@EB1
Correct Elwood - and if you go back to the 1950s what you describe is exactly how Japan was.
Not quite, the Japanese market built itself on the back of buying second hand quality equipment from the US and Germany. They invested in good quality systems but had a learning curve about heavy manufacturing like any new market. Yet that is still not the major difference, the Japanese take great pride in the things they make and that artisan like outlook is part of their culture going back thousands of years, that does not exist in China. In China not even family is respected by the upwardly mobile generations, and they only pay lip service to the concept of losing face.
The Chinese do not invest in good equipment, or if they do they buy some they only one then have fifty cheap knock-offs made locally. Next time you see a company installing some Chinese heavy machinery get the local sparky to open it up and do a safety inspection of the wiring. You'll be horrified to find 3-Phase wiring joined by twisting bare conductors together and wrapping them in insulation tape, for non-electrical types that is like joining a crane cable with sticky tape.
As for the growth in the Chinese domestic market it is a complete furphy, it is happening off the back of 110% mortgage loans that they have no intention of ever repaying. The bulk of the Chinese development exists because of Westerners being suck in by the "big carrot " and getting burned in the process. I had one Chinese company director tell me that for each foreign investor that falls there are a hundred ready to take his place. Westerners are just another resource, like the ore, rice and gas we ship.
In China not even family is respected, and they only pay lip service to the concept of losing face.
You're kidding right?
In China not even family is respected, and they only pay lip service to the concept of losing face.
You're kidding right?
There is a world of difference between the current generations and the old generations. My Chinese friends have very grave fears about the future of China as the new generations of materialistic youth become mobile, financial and influential. I'll edit my comment to reflect that.
In China not even family is respected, and they only pay lip service to the concept of losing face.
You're kidding right?
There is a world of difference between the current generations and the old generations. My Chinese friends have very grave fears about the future of China as the new generations of materialistic youth become mobile, financial and influential. I'll edit my comment to reflect that.
As Japanese society has - your talking about a trans Asian phenomenon there, it's not restricted to the Chinese. It won't stop Chinese industry producing better and better quality goods into the future. The dependency on "artisans" in manufacturing has reduced dramatically and will continue to do so. The Chinese will eventually no doubt face the same challenges as Japan and the West as its labour costs increase and companies seek cheaper alternatives.
As Japanese society has - your talking about a trans Asian phenomenon there, it's not restricted to the Chinese. It won't stop Chinese industry producing better and better quality goods into the future. The dependency on "artisans" in manufacturing has reduced dramatically and will continue to do so. The Chinese will eventually no doubt face the same challenges as Japan and the West as its labour costs increase and companies seek cheaper alternatives.
Cookie, I agree that technically there is no good reason why that won't happen. But my Artisan comment is directed more at the cultural aspects not the technicalities, and I firmly believe that culturally there is a significant difference.
"Face" and respect really still does means something to Japanese youth, many of those Trans-Asian youth you refer to in the above comment are what the Chinese themselves refer to as "Overseas Chinese"! It is a Western perspective to lump them all in an all encompassing "Asian" category, Thai, Indonesian, Malaysian, Philippine are all very different cultures.
But back on topic, one culture covets efficiency and economy of purpose, the other just seems to consume.
@LP
I'm not taking issue with your comparisons of the cultures and mores of the two peoples LP, all I'm saying is that IMO and from experience and what I've read on the subject, due to the methods and techniques of modern manufacturing it won't be a show stopper, that's all.
Touching on LP's description of generational upward mobile, yada yada yada, that seems to be evident of all the youngsters in modern society. Its not cultural, it seems to be generational, and global at that.
AS for Japan vs China manufacturing.
Japan have always been traditionally strong manufacturers. Yamaha (audio and motorcycle) Honda, Sony, Toshiba, Fujitsu, Kawasaki, Isuzu, Suzuki, Toyota, Lexus. All of it prestigious and quality made goods and services.
The cheap manufacturing really did its thing in the 80's. We are a throwaway society for it. Something breaks, you dont fix it, you replace it. Its cheaper to do that. Given the way technology is moving these days, that special TV you spent 10 grand on 5 years ago? Yep, its probably worth less than a grand today.
Unless you are buying a car, or a product like an oven, dishwasher, fridge, washing mashine, the sort of thing that performs a function for you with little innovation in the industry, its not worth spending the extra dollars.
I will buy the most cost effective television. Note this doesnt mean cheap, this means cheap to run dailly whilst having all the latest features. No doubt in less than 10 years, todays TV's will be superceded. The brand is almost irrelevant. They are all reasonably good unless you go for the cheapest of the cheap.
I understand everyone's perspective, I started this thread because of the irony surrounding the breakdown of the Chinese Lunar Rover (Yutu, aka Jade Rabbit).
This was a center piece of China's superior technologies, faster, better, cheaper than the rest. Yet in just a few days of operation it failed sitting on the lunar landscape like a piece of rubble in a junk yard.
No doubt just getting it there was a tough gig, but this wasn't some mass produced piece of cheap disposable utility or gadget. It was a beacon of technology, and it is b0rked prematurely.
Contrast this with NASA, JSA and ESO projects. Many had design lives of months or years and still work a decade after their design life.
This comparison tells us something, we should take note!
I understand everyone's perspective, I started this thread because of the irony surrounding the breakdown of the Chinese Lunar Rover (Yutu, aka Jade Rabbit).
This was a center piece of China's superior technologies, faster, better, cheaper than the rest. Yet in just a few days of operation it failed sitting on the lunar landscape like a piece of rubble in a junk yard.
No doubt just getting it there was a tough gig, but this wasn't some mass produced piece of cheap disposable utility or gadget. It was a beacon of technology, and it is b0rked prematurely.
Contrast this with NASA, JSA and ESO projects. Many had design lives of months or years and still work a decade after their design life.
This comparison tells us something, we should take note!
What about the US rocket that didnt even make it out of the atmosphere?
Problems occur.
What about the US rocket that didnt even make it out of the atmosphere?
Problems occur.
They do, but there is tragedy and there is irony!
There are differences I see between Japan's industrial growth and China's which are different and important for the future. After WWII the USA dismantled a lot of Japanese Industry to punish them but quickly realised they had done the wrong thing and needed to rebuild Japan to create a strong japan economy to feed the people and keep in front in the race with the Sovet Union. They pumped money and Technology into Japan and helped turn japan into the 3rd largest Industrial giant in the world.
Japan were then able to become a self governed western like power under the watchful eye of America who controlled their lifeline which was oil/petrol.....China however is still a communist country with a state run economy...that state run economy similar to the Soviet Union will prevent China from taking the next step and will hinder any improvements in quality.
Enter India........land of the very rich and extremely poor but those rich are mighty rich and mighty smart and with no communist state beelding them dry and holding them back they will overtake China and become a bigger player than the Chinese IMO.....
Enter India........land of the very rich and extremely poor but those rich are mighty rich and mighty smart and with no communist state bleeding them dry and holding them back they will overtake China and become a bigger player than the Chinese IMO.....
Great minds must think alike!!!! ;)
The comparison of China to India is an interesting one.
Don't forget that China has a large and growing class of affluent to very affluent people who are driving domestic demand for quality and sophisticated goods. OK the state is a strong presence but capitalism also plays a big part in influencing and driving events.
India on the other hand is more of a conventional capitalist economy with an increasingly wealthy middle class. However, there are still very deep social divisions and from what I've read, tensions run very high in some parts of the country among the "have nots", not to mention the widespread religious bigotry. For an interesting insight to this, read the book "White Tiger" by Aravind Adiga.
I would not like to be placing serious bets on India becoming a bigger force in the world than China.
The comparison of China to India is an interesting one.
Don't forget that China has a large and growing class of affluent to very affluent people who are driving domestic demand for quality and sophisticated goods. OK the state is a strong presence but capitalism also plays a big part in influencing and driving events.
India on the other hand is more of a conventional capitalist economy with an increasingly wealthy middle class. However, there are still very deep social divisions and from what I've read, tensions run very high in some parts of the country among the "have nots", not to mention the widespread religious bigotry. For an interesting insight to this, read the book "White Tiger" by Aravind Adiga.
I would not like to be placing serious bets on India becoming a bigger force in the world than China.
Cookie...You would have got good money to say that India would never control world cricket but they do now........the Indians are smarter IMO.....they will have the Chinese working for them and already have a big business presence in China even though both countries are still sparring with border conflicts etc.....China dont have the same presence in India.
While India is a fractured country with different racial/religious groups they all come together when it comes to disliking China as well.
General Barney Banana had to stop them in Fiji as they had taken over 90% of the business interests and had the local population as their employees.......look at mining in Queensland, trace back the companies and see who the owners are?
@EB1
Elwood, there are no doubt many enterprising and hard working Indians around the world who have and will become very very successful, along with some Indian corporations. I have worked alongside many such Indian people during my career both here and overseas and I take nothing away from them.
However, in a race to become a global superpower, which includes military might, financial clout and political influence, I'm not as convinced as you are that they will win out over the Chinese.