Thought it might be a reasonable discussion for us to muse over when we believe the slack we members/supporters are cutting BB, SOS and Triggster re the 'reset', should be over and why. Finite goals must be set, it's when humans are at their best... open ended goals breed failure.
Yes, they're delivering on no more quick fixes and no more saviours. Ripper. Turning over the list and getting young talent into the place looks to be going well also. Ripper. So when does the consistent impressiveness start?
I don't buy the approx 5 year cr@p for a second. Most 5 year plans fail badly. 3 is good as there's enough tolerance in the first year to 18 months to rip things down, set the set the new foundations then restart ...but have some pressure build pretty soon after that to deliver or begin to deliver on the promises - and the bottom line is that we're building/doing all of this for the stated goal of 'sustained excellence'.
For me the honeymoon period must be over by the middle of next year., with obvious signs of strong improvement by the end of this year. Of course there could be mitigating circumstances such as unreasonable numbers of injuries.
(And by the way, Triggster... you owe us big time for removing Eddie from us to go to the Crows. So, how about a major coup/signing or two at the end of this year!!!!)
Thoughts?
What exactly is "consistent impressiveness" ?
What are "obvious signs of strong improvement" ?
The problem is that people look for different things when they look for improvement, impressiveness etc.
As I see it, the way these things work there is no set period when you can say "the honeymoon is over."
Its a bit like an Ice Sculpture....there's a slow melting away of support.
For some.... the honeymoon has already ended.
Others will hang on a bit longer.
The hard core will hang on until the whole thing is just a puddle at their feet. ;D
The trick for the folks in charge is to get things turned around and on the improve before it reaches a point where it can't be saved.
Watching BB's press conference, I got the distinct impression that he's not riding out any honeymoon period. He was far less jovial, more terse and direct with his answers to the press which is a direct reflection of his mood. He wants success and he wants it soon IMO, he's not accepting where we are at and nor should we.
If the club is preaching a 3 year re-build, then year 4 will be finals or bust I would imagine.
Year 3 will give a lot better indication of whether we are on the right track, than this year IMO.
What Lods and Sexybronco said.
- There is no time period, it takes what it takes as long as its done right. You will see "green shoots" more often along the way which tells you its right.
- He says it repeatedly however its correct. They do not absolve themselves from going out and trying to win every game but circumstances may prevent results going our way. It is what it is as long as we are on the right course.
We have to be patient, we are coming from a long way back as has be stated and debated ad nauseam.
Saints on the rebuild in this present cycle spent three years circling the bottom then jumped midpack in the 4th year.....a bottom 4 finish in 2019 might be fatal for Bolton...
The panic signs will be abandoning youth next draft and paying out big for messiahs like Fyfe, Martin etc....if that happens and the Pres etc are pushing buying in talent then you know the bullet is in the chamber....
Saints on the rebuild in this present cycle spent three years circling the bottom then jumped midpack in the 4th year.....a bottom 4 finish in 2019 might be fatal for Bolton...
The panic signs will be abandoning youth next draft and paying out big for messiahs like Fyfe, Martin etc....if that happens and the Pres etc are pushing buying in talent then you know the bullet is in the chamber....
Why say that when Trigg already said last year that this off season was when we start looking for free agents.
The list build is underway. How long it takes depends on how long the youngsters take to come good.
For me the honeymoon period finished round 1 last year.
It's about growth and improvement in all facets at the club.
This is a test of the club not individuals.
An example might be a competitive seconds team, which we might have finally. Recruitment of high end talent and their progress.
Individuals and positions come and go. Hopefully Bolts and all the people at the start of the journey are there when we're successful but it's very unlikely.
Bolts, SOS, Trigg, McKay,Craig etc might play a role in the success but may not be there to finish. Likewise there's bound to be people we don't yet know of who may contribute plenty .
Why say that when Trigg already said last year that this off season was when we start looking for free agents.
The list build is underway. How long it takes depends on how long the youngsters take to come good.
Free agents are different to messiahs ie Fyfe, Martin etc.......we dont need messiahs and we dont need to over do free agents at this stage......Saints have gone low key and with the exception of Carlisle have limited their free agents/imports to cheap kids on the rise ie Hickey, Steele, Weller, Bruce, Stevens, Roberton etc...
We are only 1 year and 5 games into a rebuild, why would you be chasing big names at this stage?....unless you were panicked by bottom finishes....
Bolton v Clarkson first 27 games
hard to stop the blow outs when the midfield is lead by Murph, Gibbs and an (injured?) Cripps?
Murph and Gibbs have never been good defensively.
That said, defence, is a team effort....it went missing badly Friday night and in Q3 against the Coast.
Definitely over when the first child came along....
Definitely over when the first child came along....
2E had problems the year his kid was born, but bounced strongly.
Pity Bryce;s bounce will be playing along side Eddie and Sauce....
Free agents are different to messiahs ie Fyfe, Martin etc.......we dont need messiahs and we dont need to over do free agents at this stage......Saints have gone low key and with the exception of Carlisle have limited their free agents/imports to cheap kids on the rise ie Hickey, Steele, Weller, Bruce, Stevens, Roberton etc...
We are only 1 year and 5 games into a rebuild, why would you be chasing big names at this stage?....unless you were panicked by bottom finishes....
Agree EB, get the right young talent in, build, develop and things will turn and become a club of choice. Target two younger guns say instead of 1 Fyfe or Dusty type messiah.
I think people are starting to look critically at Bolton.
His slogans are wearing thin on some fans.
His matchday coaching tactics seem to come under fire and seems limited to swapping Rowe and weitering around, and swapping Ed Curnow onto a different opponent to tag according to what I've heard/read from supporters.
I'm under no illusions. Our club is in a bad situation where too much has been left to too few, and that's a work in progress but in a couple of years time we will need a new batch of kids, to fill in our current gaps, because our elder players who have a big say in how we go, will be replaced by our current kids.
If people are looking at success as a measure of Bolton he won't stack up in a few years. Kruddler pointed it out. We are five years off challenging properly unless we bring in a few free agents, or our kids and sub 24 year olds kick on and become solid afl performers quickly.
I think people are starting to look critically at Bolton.
His slogans are wearing thin on some fans.
His matchday coaching tactics seem to come under fire and seems limited to swapping Rowe and weitering around, and swapping Ed Curnow onto a different opponent to tag according to what I've heard/read from supporters.
I'm under no illusions. Our club is in a bad situation where too much has been left to too few, and that's a work in progress but in a couple of years time we will need a new batch of kids, to fill in our current gaps, because our elder players who have a big say in how we go, will be replaced by our current kids.
If people are looking at success as a measure of Bolton he won't stack up in a few years. Kruddler pointed it out. We are five years off challenging properly unless we bring in a few free agents, or our kids and sub 24 year olds kick on and become solid afl performers quickly.
Seriously?
Have you watched us over the last 4 years?
We have been crape. And u expect Bolton to turn that around?
It's not about Bolton, Ratten or Malthouse.
The coach is one piece of a team.
We need to build a resilient hard working ruthless group, that can transform our players into something similar.
Our list will require another 8- 10 players.
As u said it will be 3-5 years before we could challenge.
So far so good but we are just starting a 5 to 7 year programme.
We will disagree on a few things along the way but expecting miracles early is just old school garbage
Seriously?
Have you watched us over the last 4 years?
We have been crape. And u expect Bolton to turn that around?
It's not about Bolton, Ratten or Malthouse.
The coach is one piece of a team.
We need to build a resilient hard working ruthless group, that can transform our players into something similar.
Our list will require another 8- 10 players.
As u said it will be 3-5 years before we could challenge.
So far so good but we are just starting a 5 to 7 year programme.
We will disagree on a few things along the way but expecting miracles early is just old school garbage
I agree and on the time frame...the question is will the faithful and the management of the club agree and stick fat for the long journey....one bad loss to Port and the natives seem to be restless.
I agree and on the time frame...the question is will the faithful and the management of the club agree and stick fat for the long journey....one bad loss to Port and the natives seem to be restless.
Faaaarrrrk the natives.
That thinking put us in this mess.
Seriously?
Have you watched us over the last 4 years?
We have been crape. And u expect Bolton to turn that around?
It's not about Bolton, Ratten or Malthouse.
The coach is one piece of a team.
We need to build a resilient hard working ruthless group, that can transform our players into something similar.
Our list will require another 8- 10 players.
As u said it will be 3-5 years before we could challenge.
So far so good but we are just starting a 5 to 7 year programme.
We will disagree on a few things along the way but expecting miracles early is just old school garbage
Your misunderstanding of my post is so enormous Im not even going to try and clarify things with anything but the following.
That post isn't about what I expect from Bolton and I have no idea where you extrapolated that point from.
Read the post properly.
Faaaarrrrk the natives.
That thinking put us in this mess.
The culture of the club that we dont rebuild or embrace the draft put us in this mess......when the form 4 disappeared so did we.....
Really good food for thought in some of these posts. Idk if the term "honeymoon period" really fits the bill here. No matter where we are as a club all of us have certain expectations and those expectations change with time based where we are as a club. Whether they fall in or outside this honeymoon period doesn't seem absolutely relevant to me.
All of us as supporters and members are looking from the outside in, and we all have a grasp of the propaganda coming out from the club. Our own opinions are based on what we hear or don't hear really sets our own expectations. I think setting a "bar" then going for it really is a flawed scenario as well.
For me personally there will never be a honeymoon period or a grace period, it just doesn't sit right. From day dot to infinity and beyond I just expect the Club as a whole to get better. I guess then the honey moon period finished in 1864.
Bolton v Clarkson first 27 games
Can't read it Jim .
Can't read it Jim .
Clarkson had one more win only than Bolton at the same stage....its a fair point Jim makes remembering Hawthorn were a basket case when Clarkson took over.
Saints record when Pelchen traded out everything was also poor....bottom, 4th bottom and bottom again, taken them a while to rebuild and move up the ladder.....one bad loss to Port and we are questioning the coach who we have to remember is also learning his craft and tactically etc is a novice...
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/carlton-ceo-steven-trigg-defends-clubs-youth-policy-20170426-gvsy74.html
Looks like the club is not worrying about honeymoons atm?
Clarkson had one more win only than Bolton at the same stage....its a fair point Jim makes remembering Hawthorn were a basket case when Clarkson took over.
Saints record when Pelchen traded out everything was also poor....bottom, 4th bottom and bottom again, taken them a while to rebuild and move up the ladder.....one bad loss to Port and we are questioning the coach who we have to remember is also learning his craft and tactically etc is a novice...
True.
I've backed them in for bringing in the kids reasonably quickly and it will be interesting to see if they think they had a few too many kids in.
I've got no problem even if they think it was a mistake, it happens, there's no hard and fast rules . We have to know what the tipping point is.
My feeling is a few more mature bodies this week.
True.
I've backed them in for bringing in the kids reasonably quickly and it will be interesting to see if they think they had a few too many kids in.
I've got no problem even if they think it was a mistake, it happens, there's no hard and fast rules . We have to know what the tipping point is.
My feeling is a few more mature bodies this week.
I watched On the couch and Healy bought up our list of inexperienced kids.
He said it may be dangerous bringing in too many at once.
Dunstall disagreed saying, just get games into them.
Effectively sink or swim.
Was interesting Monday night after Melbourne lost everyone on fox sympathied saying they were short a ruckman etc and Dunstall said they just need to find a way to win these games.
I am still in love. Come on we talk about playing kids and when they lose we are surprised. Supporters support we have been told what they are going to do (Bolton etc) and they are doing it they told us there would be bumps and guess what. A loss to port in Sa in a season we will finish bottom three who cares ... they are not going to win a flag so they can run around enjoying the victory we blooded a group of players who will be better for it.
I watched On the couch and Healy bought up our list of inexperienced kids.
He said it may be dangerous bringing in too many at once.
Dunstall disagreed saying, just get games into them.
Effectively sink or swim.
Was interesting Monday night after Melbourne lost everyone on fox sympathied saying they were short a ruckman etc and Dunstall said they just need to find a way to win these games.
We'll know their thinking soon enough.
Faaaarrrrk the natives.
That thinking put us in this mess.
x2.
True.
I've backed them in for bringing in the kids reasonably quickly and it will be interesting to see if they think they had a few too many kids in.
I've got no problem even if they think it was a mistake, it happens, there's no hard and fast rules . We have to know what the tipping point is.
My feeling is a few more mature bodies this week.
I agree, vs the Swans who like contested footy you may want another couple of mature bodies...vs a team like GC you can get away with more kids as GC play open one on one footy.
Dont think Bolton will be panicked by media calls and clowns like MA Rucci from SA telling him he has too many kids on the park....he was defiant at his presser that he will stick with the kids....
Kruezer and maybe Thomas or Graham in IMO....
I agree, vs the Swans who like contested footy you may want another couple of mature bodies...vs a team like GC you can get away with more kids as GC play open one on one footy.
Dont think Bolton will be panicked by media calls and clowns like MA Rucci from SA telling him he has too many kids on the park....he was defiant at his presser that he will stick with the kids....
Kruezer and maybe Thomas or Graham in IMO....
Bolton would listen and then respectfully tell him what the facts are. Triggs statements in the article in The Age suggests there is a plan in place that the entire club has bought into and the entire club will live or die by that plan. Cant ask for anymore than that, the media can write or speculate all they like, they dont set our course, the CFC does.