We're slated to play the 'Aints at Marvel at 15:20 on Sunday 23rd April.
It will be interesting as we have a long break, while the 'Aints play Collingwood this week.
The Saints have stated that Steele will be back for this game after a broken clavicle.
Saints have been playing without their two key forwards as well in King and Membrey, hopefully they are still out especially the latter who seems to like playing us...
Saints have been playing without their two key forwards as well in King and Membrey, hopefully they are still out especially the latter who seems to like playing us...
The big keys dont worry me, Weiters and Young seem to have a "bring it on" approach and thrive on playing on the big forwards. Who worries me are the small pests like Higgins, Butler, Billings (who he plays), Gresham and newbies like (not smalls but) Caminiti and Phillipou who can all get under our guard. If we could get more from Durdin, Motlop, Owies, Fisher, etc as a collective (as opposed to one bobbing up while the others don't), we wouldn't lose many games I reckon.
The big keys dont worry me, Weiters and Young seem to have a "bring it on" approach and thrive on playing on the big forwards. Who worries me are the small pests like Higgins, Butler, Billings (who he plays), Gresham and newbies like (not smalls but) Caminiti and Phillipou who can all get under our guard. If we could get more from Durdin, Motlop, Owies, Fisher, etc as a collective (as opposed to one bobbing up while the others don't), we wouldn't lose many games I reckon.
Agree the smalls are going to be a problem but I think they will be better with their two KP Forwards if fit back in the team especially Membrey who has proved a difficult matchup and is one of their leaders.
They will also have Steele back who is probably what Glen Jakovich was to Wayne Carey and Cripps always seems to battle to get the better of him. Saying all that I expect once again that Charlie and Harry should be too much for the Saints and our overall midfield group should dominate the likes of Crouch, Ross etc...
Marshall is having a great season so quelling his influence will have a big impact on the game.... a good test for the coach this game will be in terms of getting the chess pieces right.
The Saints will bring heat to the ball, and that will be the end for Carlton.
Ross Lyon will be watching our game tonight pissing his pants at how easy next week will be.
Pitto gone
I cannot think of a single positive out of this game so far, not bloody one.
I cannot think of a single positive out of this game so far, not bloody one.
I thought of one, Fisher has a tackle.
The Saints will bring heat to the ball, and that will be the end for Carlton.
Saints by 5 goals if they fail to see real form.
Maybe we should've got Ross the Boss and Sos, instead of Voss?
Maybe we should've got Ross the Boss and Sos, instead of Voss?
Maybe. The only way we could find out is what we did, to give Voss a try.
The question will be, can he learn from our failings and come up with a solution? If he can, then we've chosen wisely. if he can't, then we're headed to more years of mediocrity.
We all know whats going to happen against the Saints. They will play out of their skins against us, and we are going to cop a hammering.
The wins thus far have masked a lot of systemic issues at the club, and one of those is the reliance on individuals to get us across the line. If this one is at Marvel we are in strife.
Not greatly worried. First loss. Shake up they needed. Knew it was coming and tipped Adelaide. Pretty confident against St.Kilda.
When Carlton don't turn up to play, they really don't turn up. Been that way since I started supporting them a long time ago. Soon rights itself. Even in our greatest year, 1995, we had 2 losses worse than last night.
Not greatly worried. First loss. Shake up they needed. Knew it was coming and tipped Adelaide. Pretty confident against St.Kilda.
When Carlton don't turn up to play, they really don't turn up. Been that way since I started supporting them a long time ago. Soon rights itself. Even in our greatest year, 1995, we had 2 losses worse than last night.
I applaud your optimism, LAJ old son. I pray you're right.
I applaud your optimism, LAJ old son. I pray you're right.
I feel no point getting to fussed about one loss as long as it is addressed. It more about how we rebound from it.
Stocker will be licking his lips. Can see him splitting one of our forwards in half.
Stocker will be licking his lips. Can see him splitting one of our forwards in half.
I hope one of our blokes sits him on his ass.
Stocker will be licking his lips. Can see him splitting one of our forwards in half.
Was he bitten by a radioactive spider in the off-season? Because I don’t remember him being a Kamikaze kid when he played for us. Maybe you’ve mixed him up with Mitch Robinson?
Short memory. One example: Stocker obliterated Mihocek with a body check last year, he was one of the few on the list that would consistently put his body in. Got two weeks for a body check last year as well. None of our piss weak refuse to chase forwards - heck none of the list - will stand up to any physical pressure. It's been a issue with us for twenty years and continues to be so. Stocker would actually have been perfect to free up Saad last night, but no. Oh well, others apparently know better.
Everyone in the AFL knows that we are hopeless under physical pressure, utterly hopeless.
You mean this ?
https://www.facebook.com/CarltonBluesFans/videos/stocker-with-a-crunching-bump/687202702123717/
Stocker was rubbed out for 1 week in 2022 in the North game. Lewis Young was also suspended in the same match. The club appealed Young's suspension, but not Stocker's.
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/blues-to-appeal-young-suspension-20220502-p5ahnq.html
Obliterated? LMAO. Standard shepherd. He merely got in front of Mihocek, turned his back and used Mihocek’s velocity against him. Was Mihocek playing for a free? It’d be interesting to see if he popped up after no free came his way.
Maybe you can show us some clips of Stocker’s crash tackling.
Prof is right, other teams think we can be got at physically and we even had Rankine trying to get in our players faces last night.
Stocker will have a go back as he showed vs Holman last game, we are a very passive team and I felt Walker and Fogarty in particular think they can bully us and just walk through our tackles.
Yawn
Prof is right, other teams think we can be got at physically and we even had Rankine trying to get in our players faces last night.
Stocker will have a go back as he showed vs Holman last game, we are a very passive team and I felt Walker and Fogarty in particular think they can bully us and just walk through our tackles.
What an apt description, sadly.
What an apt description, sadly.
Whether that's true or not, I doubt the absence or presence of Stocker would alter any perception other teams have about us, and I doubt his presence would have them quivering in their boots. I think this storyline is overplayed.
Fortunately, we have a tough guy who’ll send.a shiver down the spines of the St Kilda players:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0KFuhcnq5w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0KFuhcnq5w)
He knocked out O’Meara and sent him from the ground. On the other hand, Stocker didn’t even manage to force Tarryn Thomas from the ground but he did manage to send himself off with a shoulder injury that kept him out for a few games. I wonder if Plowman inspires fear amongst opposing players?
Should this game be changed to St Kilda Vs The Bye? I we repeat last nights performance they may as well.
Our job is to surrender at the contest, if we don't we get "A Plowman" by Michael Christian.
That's our club's fault for failing to stick up for it's players in the past, they use us as an example, because we have a history of rolling over!
Carlton appealed twice but lost. Not sure how that means we failed to stick up for him.
Plowman was an unspectacular player before the worst tribunal decision in history, but as shown by Friday night, he's a laughing stock now. Time to give somebody with more upside e.g. Kemp a go.
Plowman was an unspectacular player before the worst tribunal decision in history, but as shown by Friday night, he's a laughing stock now. Time to give somebody with more upside e.g. Kemp a go.
Our persistence with Plowman is a big reason why we are where we are. After 8 years of a rebuild we STILL don't have the ruthless edge and have at least 3 times the amount of Plowman type players then the better teams would dare to have on their list.
Most teams have 2 or 3 players they are 'hoping' come good we have a 1/3 of our list in that basket.
Can't compete with the big boys until we grow a set of balls and strike a line through the Plowman, Marchbank, Martin, Cunningham, Dow, LOB and there's more. If they are not seen to be part of our next premiership team then p1ss them off! Enough
If we think we were out coached this week Ross the boss will make it even harder for us. We will not be allowed to play our way and as a result history tells us very clearly our football team crumbles when not allowed to play in a fashion that we are good at.
They will comfortably beat us IMO.
Don't think we will be as fatigued - so looking forward to a strong tough showing.
If our coaches follow the fan trend and come out of Thursday night worried about Plowman we are properly forked for 2023, because there were probably another 6 or 8 players far worse on the night.
Young had a Barry Crocker, fans will give him a pass because he came good late with some intercept marks, but early on when it was up for grabs he was a traffic cone. When the angry Crow sausage makers came out all aggressive, it looks like Young's sausage and beans retracted into a safe space somewhere behind his liver!
Young's Nocturnum Horribilis was almost equalled by SoJ and TDK, who both offered little succour to desperate fans desperate for someone somewhere with some effective effort, sure they give effort, but it isn't enough it actually has to achieve something!
(PS: Full apologies, I realise to avoid offense I must never mention SoJ in critical comments!)
Cowan's and Hollands are kids, they are showing signs of fatigue and they need a chop out now, but if Honey is the next best thing we have on the books we are royally screwed, Honey was effectively on from the 1st quarter and was basically invisible for 3/4s, I didn't think this was possible but he made LoB look like a clone of the Dominator!
Without Owies to do the deep running, Durdin and Motlop have almost zero impact, Thursday night their rudderless chook running made Paul Bower look like a tactical genius. Motlop found himself in a footrace with larger slower opponents and chose the swan dive over the gut run, he is just a kid but it's a horrible habit to get into. To make up for what they don't do, Durdin and Motlop would have to kick three each every game just to break even!
Despite perhaps being one of our better players on the day, for the second week in a row what the feck was BigH thinking? He's a Titanic, 115kg x +200cm with a straight line momentum run at the goals blocked by a single angry midget with attitude and BigH thinks it's a good time to channel Baryshnikov! FFS BigH, get some VHS copies of Plugger and learn how to intimidate, or perhaps more relevantly ponder what you saw from Walker and Fogarty at the other end of the ground!
Not sure what to say or do about Fisher, but as each week passes he's looking more like the Bonafide Charles Darwin Type Specimen for the genus Stabilus Ponyus, surely he is carry an injury or something, because he is just not the Fish we know and I'm fecked if I can work out how he is getting a starting run!
You have to have some attitude to play high level team contact sport, our attitude seems to be "Meek!"
Now, back to the nurturing! :o
Plowman was an unspectacular player before the worst tribunal decision in history, but as shown by Friday night, he's a laughing stock now. Time to give somebody with more upside e.g. Kemp a go.
The point is that Plowman has never been seen as a hard man and yet he has had at least 1 hard act to his credit. Same goes for Bryce Gibbs as he was hardly a Mitch Robinson clone yet he knocked out Robbie Gray in an alleged sling tackle for which he was rubbed out. And yet we’re supposed to accept Stocker was a raging bull because he executed a garden-variety shepherd and did his shoulder applying a bump …
I checked out Stocker’s highlights on YouTube and he had a grand total of 2 tackles in it. On the other hand, Nick Newman in an admittedly larger highlight package had 14 tackles including one where he had his opponent’s head in a leg lock. Newman tamed Toby Greene a couple of weeks ago which requires decent courage and application. Cowan nailed Shai Bolton in a tackle in his first game.
Stocker now has a chance to show he’s a tough nut this week. Surely he can rough up Fish or small Durds, if he can catch them. Let’s see how he goes.
The point is that Plowman has never been seen as a hard man and yet he has had at least 1 hard act to his credit. Same goes for Bryce Gibbs as he was hardly a Mitch Robinson clone yet he knocked out Robbie Gray in an alleged sling tackle for which he was rubbed out. And yet we’re supposed to accept Stocker was a raging bull because he executed a garden-variety shepherd and did his shoulder applying a bump …
I checked out Stocker’s highlights on YouTube and he had a grand total of 2 tackles in it. On the other hand, Nick Newman in an admittedly larger highlight package had 14 tackles including one where he had his opponent’s head in a leg lock. Newman tamed Toby Greene a couple of weeks ago which requires decent courage and application. Cowan nailed Shai Bolton in a tackle in his first game.
Stocker now has a chance to show he’s a tough nut this week. Surely he can rough up Fish or small Durds, if he can catch them. Let’s see how he goes.
Dont think Stocker needs to show he is a hard nut, just has to do his job and prove he is a competent senior footballer and not the write off that his previous club made him out to be and tried to fool the supporter base that he was a hopeless case not worth persisting with as a player on the senior list.
Maybe you weren’t selling him as a hard nut but others were.
Maybe you weren’t selling him as a hard nut but others were.
Byron Pickett he isnt and he probably needs to show maturity and not do silly things off the ball etc to keep his spot on the list at Stkilda. Getting suspended for cheap shots for example will only see him miss games and tell the coaching staff they cant trust him to be disciplined and that will end his career. Im sure his ex teammates will try and suck him like all clubs do to ex players so it will be an extra test for him to resist the urge to lose his cool and give away some dumb frees. While I would have like to have retained him as a player I hope he does cross the line this week and hand us a few goals as we need to rebound with a win and I have some Saints inlaws who are going to be giving me plenty if we lose and Stocker has a decent game....
I can just imagine the gnashing of teeth about Will Setterfield going to Essendon. He’s tagging Clayton Oliver out of the game right now. I’m sure all of Setterfield’s Carlton fans can’t understand how we let a 24 year old former pick 5 or 6 get away.
I wonder if Plowman inspires fear amongst opposing players?
He inspires fear in me whenever I see him kick the ball....or try to.
I would like to see:
Out Plowman Honey Fisher
In Cincotta, Gov and one of Dow/Fog as the 23rd man.
If Gov doesn't get up, Kemp comes in
If Pitto doesn't get up, Mirkov comes in (The TDK/SOS experiment is over for mine)
For those criticising Dow's efforts in the 2's, I want to see if Fisher goes back there and tears it up like Dow has.
I can just imagine the gnashing of teeth about Will Setterfield going to Essendon. He’s tagging Clayton Oliver out of the game right now. I’m sure all of Setterfield’s Carlton fans can’t understand how we let a 24 year old former pick 5 or 6 get away.
Ironically, Setterfield shut down Oliver in the second last game of last year (the one we should have won). Problem is, we have several Setterfield types in the current midfield group, which is why we get chopped up in fast games, because basically we are as slow as treacle. We should be fast-tracking any young ones we have that have even an ounce of pace.
Honey hadn't done much in the VFL and then played the last 2 games despite not doing much....weird selection IMO.
Cowan has been solid but might benefit from a week off and give Cincotta a crack. Him and Gov in (assuming he's fit) for Plowman and Cowan.
Hewett isn't playing like he did early last year and might be one to go out and bring Dow in.
Fingers crossed on Pittonet...De Koning was ordinary the other night and continually getting pushed out of the way.
Kemp is a good sub option but probably done enough to come into the 22.
Ironically, Setterfield shut down Oliver in the second last game of last year (the one we should have won). Problem is, we have several Setterfield types in the current midfield group, which is why we get chopped up in fast games, because basically we are as slow as treacle. We should be fast-tracking any young ones we have that have even an ounce of pace.
Agreed, we are even slower when Setters was in the 22, and no matter what disgruntled fans or trolls say he's not ahead of anyone who remains.
The irony of the fan cries following Setterfield's departure is not lost on me, when he was at Carlton he wore as much whipping boy heat as Plowman, now Setterfield is gone he's the saviour we let slip through! :o
Yep, list management isn’t just stockpiling similar players just in case you need them on a rainy day. And players aren’t just slaves who have no ability to object if they’re being stockpiled.
Imagine if Plowman ends up moving to another club and doing well. He’d then receive the Casboult treatment, with even his detractors bemoaning our failure to keep him just in case we end up with injuries.
Imagine if Plowman ends up moving to another club and doing well. He’d then receive the Casboult treatment, with even his detractors bemoaning our failure to keep him just in case we end up with injuries.
Then there is McGovern, Martin and Williams, etc., etc..
We've got so many, you just know we are going to get bitten somewhere eventually.
All these players were better or would be better at other clubs, maybe our problem is too many Chiefs and feck all Indians, which I believe to be the key to list management. I don't want a team full of Mitch Robinsons, but finding and keeping one good example of each type might be nice! A bit of angry, a bit of pace, a bit of attitude!
Rather than contemplate being bitten by the potential losses of Plowman, Marchbank, Williams, Martin, TDK etc., I'd rather contemplate the opportunities presented re vacant list places and who can fill them.
Maybe you weren’t selling him as a hard nut but others were.
This was his draft profile
Having finished his schooling in 2017, Liam Stocker has had the benefit of absolute TAC Cup commitment this season and has flourished. The Haileybury product, who could follow in the footsteps of fellow 2017 alumni Andrew Brayshaw, Luke Davies-Uniacke and Aidan Bonar to be drafted in the first-round, has the rare ability to break games open. The 183cm midfielder initially caught the eye in round three of the TAC Cup season, with a damaging 21-disposal, two-goal display against the Calder Cannons at home. Stocker’s ability to rest deep in the forward-line and hit the scoreboard was also particularly notable in Round 3 of the TAC Cup, drawing comparisons to Richmond champion Dustin Martin as a result.
Missing Vic Metro’s crusade in the National Under 18 Championships with a broken jaw, Stocker’s name did not seem to feature in the conversation of 2018’s top prospects mid-year, but a dominant back-end of the TAC Cup season saw that change. The inside midfielder plays with aggression and tenacity and contributes in all facets of the game, having averaged 23 possessions (12 contested), six clearances, five inside 50s and five tackles from 12 games this season. His status as an elite midfielder became apparent when the Dragons hosted the Pioneers, gathering 35 disposals together with four marks, five tackles and a goal. The St Kilda supporter capped off a memorable season with the coveted Morrish Medal, recognised as the TAC Cup’s best-and-fairest, three votes clear atop the leader-board. It puts the talented junior cricketer in favourable company, with Richmond cult-hero Jack Higgins, Demons ball-magnet Clayton Oliver and Brisbane Lions Rolls-Royce Hugh McCluggage the past three recipients of the award.
STRENGTHS
Aggression
Explosiveness
Leadership
Vertical jump
Size
Stocker’s aggression, explosiveness and tenacity combine to make the oft-used term ‘midfield bull’ quite the fitting description, while he leads through his commanding voice and — more importantly — his actions. Indeed, while Stocker can often be heard ordering direction, his unrelenting attack on the ball is likely to inspire teammates wherever he plies his trade in future. In addition, the midfielder’s versatility, on show when resting at full-forward, is another feature likely to catch the attention of multiple clubs ahead of the 2018 draft. The type of player that makes opposition defences nervous, he presented a constant threat when deployed out of the goal-square. At 83 kilograms, Stocker’s size caused headaches for opposition midfields throughout the season, making him an AFL-ready prospect for 2019.
Stocker showed through the finals series he can play through adversity, which he did while having a clear shoulder injury. He has shot up the draft boards from last season to this year after a huge pre-season and his consistency since coming back from his broken jaw has been noticeable. It is how he earned the Morrish Medal with many best on grounds through Sandringham's season which was mixed, often playing in a team missing its top players through school football, but his game never wavered. Even upon their return, Stocker's consistency remained. He also achieved a massive 85cm running vertical jump at pre-season testing, which is why he can play effectively up forward.
IMPROVEMENTS
Endurance
Durability
Stocker’s game does not present any obvious flaws, but by his own admittance, his endurance could improve, stating “I’m not really fit enough to be an outside mid, so I base myself on the inside and try to get as many clearances as I can”, after being presented the Morrish Medal. While seen as an inside midfielder — focusing on winning contested ball ahead of running all day — his endurance may yet need to improve for AFL level next season. Another potential question mark could arise over Stocker’s durability, who apart from a broken jaw, sustained multiple niggles throughout the season, playing just 12 of a possible 20 TAC Cup games.
DRAFT PROJECTION: 10-25
SUMMARY
Liam Stocker is simply one of the best midfielders in this year’s draft crop. He appears ready to play against men and would be a strong chance to do so at AFL level in 2019 if he can get his body right early on with a full pre-season behind him. Stocker is an elite inside midfielder who bursts out of stoppages, is dangerous when drifting forward, tackles hard and takes marks around the ground. His ability to have an influence throughout four quarters is very good and expect him to be high on a lot of club's draft boards.
Rather than contemplate being bitten by the potential losses of Plowman, Marchbank, Williams, Martin, TDK etc., I'd rather contemplate the opportunities presented re vacant list places and who can fill them.
I'm far from Plowman's biggest fan and he did have a shocker on Thursday but he is a handy back up if he gets an easy match up. You would retain him ahead of Marchbank or Cunningham for obvious reasons.
We lost on Thursday because our best players in the midfield were well beaten. Cripps was down, Hewett hasn't looked right since he has come back. Pittonet subbed off forced SOS in the ruck which doesn't work and takes him out of the forward line.
This was his draft profile...................................
You should read the draft profiles of Will Setterfield, Lochie O'Brien and Paddy Dow. They all sound great. Unfortunately, the transition from promising kid to regular 22 in AFL footy has many moving parts, and plenty of cracks and crevices through which players can fall.
I have no issue with Stocker. I'm not fussed whether we kept him or not. I wish him all the best. The world doesn't need more failed AFL footballers, nor does it need more young men battling mental health.
It's not just disgruntled Carlton supporters who labelled him a tough nut after he left.
No, it was also a label given to him in a draft profile that compared him to Dustin Martin. Was it written by his mother?
FMD we never talked this much about Stocker when he was at our club. Give it farken rest fellas. He doesn't play for us, move the fark on!!!
Very true. When he was delisted, I posted that I was shocked. But that’s life in the world of list management. And it’s not as though we delisted Dusty Martin.
Very true. When he was delisted, I posted that I was shocked. But that’s life in the world of list management. And it’s not as though we delisted Dusty Martin.
Mate I liked the guy was much as anyone from a supporters point of view, but he got delisted for reasons unbeknown to us. He's now at another club, dead to me, move on.
Agreed.
Mate I liked the guy was much as anyone from a supporters point of view, but he got delisted for reasons unbeknown to us. He's now at another club, dead to me, move on.
Its those reasons unbeknown that bother me, if he was at the bottom club playing in the two's then we could all move on but given he is playing ok in the seniors at the ladder leaders and that continues then so will the scrutiny of the the List Managers decision to move him on.
Five good games in a row now for Stocker. Very reliable cog in the Saints defence.
Setters was grossly mis managed.
The club is under valuing our players and giving them away for nothing.
We'll go into this game with no illusions.
It will be tough.
That works to our advantage because there will be no complacency.
Five good games in a row now for Stocker. Very reliable cog in the Saints defence.
Setters was grossly mis managed.
The club is under valuing our players and giving them away for nothing.
Stocker played on Jamie Elliott who is a very decent player as we all know and had the better of him.
Elliott had the one goal and 11 possies to Stockers 17 possies ....Elliott was restricted after Stocker tackled and slammed him into the turf.
We'll go into this game with no illusions.
It will be tough.
That works to our advantage because there will be no complacency.
Stkilda came home well after looking like they were going to be buried, I never like playing teams who finish well in last quarters as in my experience they tend to take that form into next week.
Stock looks better at saints because of there system,he has 10 teammates that comeback and defend . Who cares . We need to beat saints and it starts with not letting wilke taking intercept marks so Harry stop F....k slipping over and use that body
We are going into this match as favourites at $1.70 Saints at $2.16.
Go Figure.
Stocker played on Jamie Elliott who is a very decent player as we all know and had the better of him.
Elliott had the one goal and 11 possies to Stockers 17 possies ....Elliott was restricted after Stocker tackled and slammed him into the turf.
All true and yet he cost them the game. Why he chose to go all in on a marking duel with Ginnivan, I don’t know. Sure, the kick to him was poor but surely he realised he couldn’t allow Ginnivan to trail the ball forward when Jamie Elliott was free in F50. He needed to focus on bringing the ball to ground to his or St Kilda’s advantage. That’s the job of a defender - keep the opposition from getting the ball even if you’re under the pump.
Once he allowed Ginnivan to run onto the loose ball, he had to tackle but instead he allowed him to step him. And Jamie Elliott then kicks the winning goal. It felt like the winning goal at the time and the dramatic finish confirmed that it was the decisive moment in the match.
I don’t see a defence-first coach like Lyon being impressed. And I reckon if Plowman made a similar error to kill a comeback for us, Carlton fans would be baying for his blood.
Will Caminetti be suspended over an off-the-ball hit on Murphy? Probably doesn’t matter if Membrey is ready to return. Steele is expected back too but it wouldn’t be a total surprise if he didn’t.
The kick was a shocker, no one could or would blame anyone for that. Even Plowman.
So we have dropped to 4th, depending on results next week, we can go as low as 9th or as high as 2nd If we win. Very important game.
Saints have good defence but I don't think that will bother us much. It's the high scoring sides that seem to give us trouble. Last year Ryder destroyed us and we were missing Weitering. Think we win by 3 goals in a low scoring affair.
The kick was a shocker, no one could or would blame anyone for that. Even Plowman.
He should have reacted as a defender and gone the fist rather than trying to win a marking contest. He was effectively making a last-ditch defensive stand notwithstanding he was on the wing. He had to know that his team was forked if he let the ball get past him.
All true and yet he cost them the game. Why he chose to go all in on a marking duel with Ginnivan, I don’t know. Sure, the kick to him was poor but surely he realised he couldn’t allow Ginnivan to trail the ball forward when Jamie Elliott was free in F50. He needed to focus on bringing the ball to ground to his or St Kilda’s advantage. That’s the job of a defender - keep the opposition from getting the ball even if you’re under the pump.
Once he allowed Ginnivan to run onto the loose ball, he had to tackle but instead he allowed him to step him. And Jamie Elliott then kicks the winning goal. It felt like the winning goal at the time and the dramatic finish confirmed that it was the decisive moment in the match.
I don’t see a defence-first coach like Lyon being impressed. And I reckon if Plowman made a similar error to kill a comeback for us, Carlton fans would be baying for his blood.
Let's go back and get it right...Wood got a free kick and kicked the ball across ground to Stocker.
The kick was too slow and Ginnivan ran in and knocked the ball away.
He had the run of the ball from the spoil and wrong footed Stocker then came back on his left and hit up Elliott who got lucky because Stocker had run off him to create the switch leaving the lazy Elliott alone and he got on the end of the play.
It was Woods mistake and very reminiscent of some of Plowman's poor kicks, he gave Stocker no chance imho.
We are going into this match as favourites at $1.70 Saints at $2.16.
Go Figure.
Of course. As we did against the Crows. Whoever comes up with this is deluded or diddling the books 😜
As you noted, the kick was slow and that gave Stocker time to react. Come at the ball, put a fist into it: just do something. He certainly would have known the stakes as he’d left Elliott unchecked in F50.
I wonder if he decided to try to outmark Ginnivan because he wasn’t going to let that little toe rag beat him.
Jack Steele back for this game.
As you noted, the kick was slow and that gave Stocker time to react. Come at the ball, put a fist into it: just do something. He certainly would have known the stakes as he’d left Elliott unchecked in F50.
I wonder if he decided to try to outmark Ginnivan because he wasn’t going to let that little toe rag beat him.
The ball was coming straight to him, most would try and take the mark...doubt I have seen any player in that position not attempt to take the mark. He probably hoped the ball would get to him first as he would have seen Ginnivan late as he was running in from the side. It was a poor kick and the Collingwood player had the drop on him....poor decision and kick from Wood was the problem and not Stockers attempt.
So, Weitering would have done no better in your view? Same for Nick Newman?
Do you think Lyon told Stocker there was nothing he could do. Or do you think he’ll tell him what he should do in similar circumstances? Maybe their review sessions aren’t that challenging.
Who will be Stockers match-up?
So, Weitering would have done no better in your view? Same for Nick Newman?
Do you think Lyon told Stocker there was nothing he could do. Or do you think he’ll tell him what he should do in similar circumstances? Maybe their review sessions aren’t that challenging.
I think Lyon would be more upset with Wood than Stocker and that kicking across the ground was risky and a poor decision.
Reckon Lyon would have been pleased with Stockers game vs such a dangerous opponent and thinking he got himself a bargain and who will Carlton select as a small defender with Docherty out, and Saad with a possible hammy and three high Stkilda quality small forwards to mind next week.
I worry about this game. We either play a competitive brand of football and get over the line, or we get smashed early and never recover. Like we did against the Crows. The game will be decided by half time. I don’t see this as a close result. One side will be blown away. I hope it isn’t us. Not a very good feeling in my stomach. This isn’t a side we have a predictable result easy to see before the first bounce. We don’t have enough goal kicking options. We rely on too few to do too much work.
Kennedy, Hewett and to some extent but not so much Cerra are well down on last years output.
Getting no goals from the midfield first five rounds and this needs to change.
So Lyon wouldn’t bother trying to teach a young defender. But at least you concede he would have been upset at Stocker (as this is implied by your thought that he would be more upset at Wood).
So Lyon wouldn’t bother trying to teach a young defender. But at least you concede he would have been upset at Stocker (as this is implied by your thought that he would be more upset at Wood).
If he was upset with Stocker it would be for leaving Elliott to create the option for Wood to make that kick.
Lyon didnt have a great game himself and said he trusted the Saints system and thats why he put no special effort/time into Nick Daicos and 42 possessions later he did admit he would do it different next time so I think Ross wouldnt be pointing the finger too much at any one given he made such a massive blunder.
He did say Steele would play next week and would keep Cripps company and that Membrey would also be available given he played in the twos so I think it wont be an easy game
If he was upset with Stocker it would be for leaving Elliott to create the option for Wood to make that kick.
Lyon didnt have a great game himself and said he trusted the Saints system and thats why he put no special effort/time into Nick Daicos and 42 possessions later he did admit he would do it different next time so I think Ross wouldnt be pointing the finger too much at any one given he made such a massive blunder.
He did say Steele would play next week and would keep Cripps company and that Membrey would also be available given he played in the twos so I think it wont be an easy game
Pencil in Steele scragging cripps at every opportunity and membrey for 4 goals.
Or he might be upset Stocker didn’t put his body on the line by taking a step towards the ball and into Ginnivan’s path to force Ginnivan to react. I can’t understand why he didn’t.
Pencil in Steele scragging cripps at every opportunity and membrey for 4 goals.
I'd be testing that collar bone at every opportunity.
Or he might be upset Stocker didn’t put his body on the line by taking a step towards the ball and into Ginnivan’s path to force Ginnivan to react. I can’t understand why he didn’t.
Think he thought he was a chance to take the mark, if he advanced the ball would have gone over his head imho....Stocker put his body on the line earlier in the game when he took a mark under some heat so I think Ross would trust Stocker in terms of sacrificing for the team.
Maybe over his head but not over his outstretched hands.
That’s the great thing about Weitering. He doesn’t just commit his body on the odd occasion. He does it every single time.
Maybe over his head but not over his outstretched hands.
Both....
I'd be testing that collar bone at every opportunity.
So would I, but our guys won't do that.
So would I, but our guys won't do that.
Maybe we could ask Stocker to do it for us🤦🏻
Here is where that drawn game really plays havoc with the way the draw pans out, because dependant on what happens to other technically this week we are one good week away from 2nd, but only one bad week away from 10th!
Could be a tough week this week, Vossies first Carlton coaching game against Ross the Boss, Ross the Boss has inside info from SOS and Stocker. Add to that Ross the Boss will be fuming after yesterday's loss, he'll be intent on making a statement.
Perfect storm against us per usual. If Saad misses we're truly jeffed. Don't have the structural personnel fit and playing well.
Perfect storm against us per usual. If Saad misses we're truly jeffed. Don't have the structural personnel fit and playing well.
We should be used to this perfect storm by now! ::)
Here is where that drawn game really plays havoc with the way the draw pans out, because dependant on what happens to other technically this week we are one good week away from 2nd, but only one bad week away from 10th!
Could be a tough week this week, Vossies first Carlton coaching game against Ross the Boss, Ross the Boss has inside info from SOS and Stocker. Add to that Ross the Boss will be fuming after yesterday's loss, he'll be intent on making a statement.
Personally, I'm far more concerned about how good the Aints look. A sustained 4 qtr effort/intensity... sustained and 4 qtr efforts are not our strong suits. You could easily see us playing well for our usual 2 1/2 qtrs or 3 and let them off the leash for a qtr or so to establish, say, a 4 goal lead and that ends up being the final margin. Far from optimistic about this one.
Personally, I'm far more concerned about how good the Aints look. A sustained 4 qtr effort/intensity... sustained and 4 qtr efforts are not our strong suits. You could easily see us playing well for our usual 2 1/2 qtrs or 3 and let them off the leash for a qtr or so to establish, say, a 4 goal lead and that ends up being the final margin. Far from optimistic about this one.
I think it's actually set up for us to know how good we really are.
We wont come with any expectation other than this will be a hard slog.
We need to apply pressure from the start.
Another performance like Thursday night and this will be looking like a very long and frustrating year.
Given this is the case, Voss can give himself some insurance by choosing this week to rotate the players in the team a bit.
This is the week to: Bring in Kemp and Dow, drop the ones in so-so form or with questions over injury, and debut Cincotta and potentially Mirkov.
Will cause selection headaches for the aints as they wont really know how to match up on us, and it gives Voss an out because our team is labouring (everyone can see it) and it will also absolve the Adelaide loss a little because people will infer that players are playing under duress and arent quite fit.
Its a win win for him, and it might be a strategy that sees us pinch a win because only a heavy loss will be bad, and the Saints havent really been obliterating teams, more just making it a slug fest.
... and the Saints havent really been obliterating teams, more just making it a slug fest.
...in typical Ross style...
AFL football is a hard, injury riddled game as it is. I don't want to see our boys specifically target a player returning from injury. Jack Steele is class act and a fair player to boot.
Caminiti looks like he will miss after whacking Murphy from Collingwood.
Saints forward line will be looking very small...
Steele is to Cripps what Nadal is to Federer...hopefully he is lacking match fitness and runs out of gas early.
Don’t jump too early. Saad has 10 days to come up and he was benched as a precaution with hamstring tightness when the game was lost with 15 minutes to go.
I'm tired of hearing all the reasons why other teams will come out against us on a mission.
When do we come out snarling and show someone else how tough and committed we are?
Surely after last Thursday's showing we need to find some hunger and bring it on....?!
Or perhaps we're not capable?
Upside is that surely we couldn't play as bad as that first 20 minutes again? In those first 10 games last year it was our midfield that was dominating....winning contested possessions....hitting targets and the scoreboard. That seems to have disappeared this year. Walsh will be better for that first game under his belt.
Saints will be forced to play Membrey now with Camanitti surely to cop at least one week. But Ross Lyon likes a scrap and is back to his old ways of "if we hold the opposition to 8 goals and kick 9 ourselves, we win".....expect it to be messy with Saints players dropping back to make it hard for Harry and Charlie.
We need our smaller forwards to step up this week. Hopefully McGovern gets up along with Pittonet.
Membrey usually destroys us.
Yep, it didn’t take Lyon long to show that he’ll always be defence-first. It doesn’t matter that rule changes favour attacking play and attacking teams like the Pies prosper, he’ll always be the lockdown guy. Thank God we didn’t chase him. I guess winning ugly might make it easier for fans to endure the grind but Lyon’s antics in the post-game press conference don’t quite make up for the lack of spectacle.
Last year we were stoppage bulls but we seem to have lost that strength because we’re concentrating more on defending the other team’s transition. As the commentators have noted on their telestrators, our mids fall back goalside at stoppages when we don’t immediately win possession but our opposition tends to win the game of British Bulldog by moving the ball laterally until they find an open runner. Surely there has to be a better way …
Membrey usually destroys us.
Yes much like Stringer, we have nobody the right size with enough pace to go with those fast mid-sized forwards.
Which makes it critical for our midfield to win and stop the easy entries into the opposition F50.
Is this a break-glass-in-case-of-emergency moment justifying naming Dow to give us some speed out of the centre bounce?
Is this a break-glass-in-case-of-emergency moment justifying naming Dow to give us some speed out of the centre bounce?
If he chase and tackles - absolutely.
Dow in, possibly for Hewett who has been outta form since he came back into the side.
If Saad and McGovern don't get up, then Plowman probably stays in and one of Cincotta or Kemp come in....possibly both.
Surely Honey goes out.
.. and potentially Mirkov.
If you think DeKoning got 'ragdolled' last week, triple it if they decide to play Mircov. He got 60 hits out against midgets in the twos last week and still did nothing around the ground. Pencil in for 2024 at the earliest!!
If you think DeKoning got 'ragdolled' last week, triple it if they decide to play Mircov. He got 60 hits out against midgets in the twos last week and still did nothing around the ground. Pencil in for 2024 at the earliest!!
I suspect fans are just going off the stats, if he gets selected you know the coaches are as well! :o
It was probably the least effective 51 taps I have ever seen, we scrapped across the line against a depleted opposition despite winning the taps about 3:1.
The problem is the taps stats are a completely bogus measure of ruck work, it's like judging players based on steps taken!
Any news on The Pitts eye. Knowing our luck he probably needs major surgery.
Filth won without a ruckman against thr Aints but they have midfielders who put in...
Dow in, possibly for Hewett who has been outta form since he came back into the side.
If Saad and McGovern don't get up, then Plowman probably stays in and one of Cincotta or Kemp come in....possibly both.
Surely Honey goes out.
Plowman and Honey cannot possibly stay in, surely.
Is this a break-glass-in-case-of-emergency moment justifying naming Dow to give us some speed out of the centre bounce?
You will need a break glass emergency for Dow given how Stkilda play....dont think repeated contested footy Ross the Boss scrum style is his go.....in and under contested players who can scratch, bite and nail tackles is the formula.
Collingwood are not exactly slow and have a lot of midfield depth but just hung on..maybe Dow as the sub might work...
Funny thing is I think we have the midfield depth - I think our midfield is far better - they just havent been playing well. Our midfield is all over the shop.
Is it set up, is it form, is it instruction, are we one trick pony's in the middle and opposition has figured us out and don't have a plan B? - time will tell but they need to start improving and get back to how they were playing last year.
Yes much like Stringer, we have nobody the right size with enough pace to go with those fast mid-sized forwards.
Which makes it critical for our midfield to win and stop the easy entries into the opposition F50.
We do, he's just never available due to injury.
Gov has the speed and aerial ability to go woth these types. We just need him to play.
Marchbank is another who is suited to these types.
I'd look at giving Kemp a crack.
Funny thing is I think we have the midfield depth - I think our midfield is far better - they just havent been playing well. Our midfield is all over the shop.
Is it set up, is it form, is it instruction, are we one trick pony's in the middle and opposition has figured us out and don't have a plan B? - time will tell but they need to start improving and get back to how they were playing last year.
Midfield has had a far from ideal preparation in the off-season.
We've obviously just got Walsh back.
Hewitt had his issues.
Pittonet hasn't got back to match fitness yet from his extended layoff.
I think cerra had some issues as well.
Kennedy has had recent issues.
If we can keep the groupnsomewhat for from here, we'll see a much better unit in a month or 2 with some more games under their belts.
Just as an aside.....SOJ got more clearances than those players mentioned above playing backup ruck. Yet people fixate on his (poor?) game, but all those midfielders barely rate a mention for their weak efforts by comparison.
Midfield has had a far from ideal preparation in the off-season.
We've obviously just got Walsh back.
Hewitt had his issues.
Pittonet hasn't got back to match fitness yet from his extended layoff.
I think cerra had some issues as well.
Kennedy has had recent issues.
If we can keep the groupnsomewhat for from here, we'll see a much better unit in a month or 2 with some more games under their belts.
Just as an aside.....SOJ got more clearances than those players mentioned above playing backup ruck. Yet people fixate on his (poor?) game, but all those midfielders barely rate a mention for their weak efforts by comparison.
When we start making excuses for blokes and the club, K, we're in trouble. The Aints have some key personnel missing yet are sitting on top of the ladder. And you can bet they've got some blokes playing sore... as has every club.
Re JSOS. Some of us have removed the rose coloured glasses. His form this year has been spasmodic. Some of his turnovers have been howlers, handing back the aggot to the opposition. He's not holding his marks and foot disposal has been not to his usual standard. It may well be that his ideal position on the field has yet to be found. Midfielder? Defender?
I'd look at giving Kemp a crack.
I like Kemp, but I think we have made an error trying to turn him into a HB, he's got size and agility but either he's not particularly strong in the contests or perhaps he lacks the aggression needed to go toe to toe with the bigger bodies.
For me it's quite sad seeing the Crows do what they did to our midfield last Thursday, and knowing we had a bloke like Kemp in the Cripps size range that has serious midfield utility and acceleration, and we've consigned him to a support role.
I like Kemp, but I think we have made an error trying to turn him into a HB, he's got size and agility but either he's not particularly strong in the contests or perhaps he lacks the aggression needed to go toe to toe with the bigger bodies.
For me it's quite sad seeing the Crows do what they did to our midfield last Thursday, and knowing we had a bloke like Kemp in the Cripps size range that has serious midfield utility and acceleration, and we've consigned him to a support role.
Kemp doesn't lack aggression, Spotted One.
Kemp doesn't lack aggression, Spotted One.
Yes I understand, yet there something holding him back, he has everything including the tricks needed for AFL, but he has become a puzzle.
While fans bitch and moan about Setterfield, Stocker and Plowman, I suspect Kemp or Dow might well become our next Mitch Robinson. Like Dow we've had Kemp so so long and made so little progress.
I'd assert it's this continued apparent lack of player development that holds our club back, not the draft, not the list management. We've tried lot's of combinations of coaches and specialists, and to date nothing has reliably worked, there must be a reason why, I had hoped Cook and Power might be the cure, but I'm losing confidence, all I can give them now is time!
Kemp played his best footy as an intercept defender at U18 level.
But we have been forced to find an easy position for McGovern as he failed as a forward and then keep going back to Plowman when McGovern cycles through injuries so Kemp never gets to play his preferred role.
The odd times he has played is when we have been down on numbers and we have done an Andrew Walker on him and matched him up on a gorilla KP forward and watched him struggle.
That's development Carlton style for some players...Plowman needs to be in the twos as backup only and Kemp in the ones and given a series of games.
Kemp played his best footy as an intercept defender at U18 level.
But we have been forced to find an easy position for McGovern as he failed as a forward and then keep going back to Plowman when McGovern cycles through injuries so Kemp never gets to play his preferred role.
The odd times he has played is when we have been down on numbers and we have done an Andrew Walker on him and matched him up on a gorilla KP forward and watched him struggle.
That's development Carlton style for some players...Plowman needs to be in the twos as backup only and Kemp in the ones and given a series of games.
Agree 100% - Plowman's not going to get any better, while Kemp may well be an untapped star. There's only one way to find out.
Kemp played his best footy as an intercept defender at U18 level.
Kemp didn't gather the high draft pick attention until his last season at TAC Cup level, just before he was injured. He was moved into the midfield and dominated, before he was drafted off the back of those few stand out games he was being talked about like he could be the next Kouta, Kouta also transitioned to the midfield from the wing/flanks.
Kemp didn't get to be a high draft pick by being a vanilla HBF.
I suspect part of the reason we've constrained him to the HBF is a fear that he'll do a knee again if he is forced into positions that require lots of twisting and turning. But opposition are going to construct that scenario for him wherever he plays, if he can't be durable in the midfield we better find out now! He's playing a role in the VFL that won't exist in AFL.
Kemp didn't gather the high draft pick attention until his last season at TAC Cup level, just before he was injured. He was moved into the midfield and dominated, before he was drafted off the back of those few stand out games he was being talked about like he could be the next Kouta, Kouta also transitioned to the midfield from the wing/flanks.
Kemp didn't get to be a high draft pick by being a vanilla HBF.
Kemp wasnt vanilla as a half back he was a Jeremy Howe, Peter Motley type player who took a lot of brave marks and provided rebound.
Yep he played on the wing, midfield and was switched down forward when the team wanted a lift but I felt he was better suited down back and the Carlton coaching staff have also preferred him down back too.
Yep he played on the wing, midfield and was switched down forward when the team wanted a lift but I felt he was better suited down back and the Carlton coaching staff have also preferred him down back too.
I've mentioned why I think that is the case, they are trying to build him not break him, but I think he could easily fill that big bodied sweeper role that we lack.
Someone who can be a handful for the Hugh Greenwood types we play against, they get it too easy against Cripps because Crippa can't escape them and also they can run off Cripps the other way, they won't be able to do that with Kemp.
I appreciate the scenario changes if Cripps, Kennedy, Cerra, Hewett, Walsh and the rucks are up and about, but they aren't all in a good form at the moment, and it's basically been Cripps and Doc holding the midfield together.
Funny thing is I think we have the midfield depth - I think our midfield is far better - they just havent been playing well. Our midfield is all over the shop.
Is it set up, is it form, is it instruction, are we one trick pony's in the middle and opposition has figured us out and don't have a plan B? - time will tell but they need to start improving and get back to how they were playing last year.
If we have to keep shifting midfielders to defence and SOS to the ruck, we wont win many of those games.
When we start making excuses for blokes and the club, K, we're in trouble. The Aints have some key personnel missing yet are sitting on top of the ladder. And you can bet they've got some blokes playing sore... as has every club.
Re JSOS. Some of us have removed the rose coloured glasses. His form this year has been spasmodic. Some of his turnovers have been howlers, handing back the aggot to the opposition. He's not holding his marks and foot disposal has been not to his usual standard. It may well be that his ideal position on the field has yet to be found. Midfielder? Defender?
I love SOS, he gives his all and leaves nothing out there, but he, like Fisher, is simply not doing enough and I think their opportunities will dry up. They need to go back to the 2s and dominate games there.
Tend to agree GTC. I know Dow is a whipping boy but he's been in form in the VFL and if there's one thing we seem to be missing in the midfield at the moment, it's some pace. This week might be a chance for him. Same with JSOS and Fisher....maybe time for the likes of Kemp, Dow, Cincotta to get a shot....obviously injuries will determine who goes out and who comes in. Would be nice to get McGovern back for this week and retain Pittonet and Saad.
If we have to shifting midfielders to defence and SOS to the ruck, we wont win many of those games.
We can't be inventing roles just to give our favourites a run, they have to win and maintain their spot based on form.
PS: There is a big difference between having a bad week and being out of form, when the struggle is sustained it's time to review.
Form is fickle. You can turn that around quickly, and go from chocolates to boiled lollies and vice versa very quickly.
Class is permanent though. A good player who isnt playing well, is two disposals away from hitting form and changing a game.
This is where it gets tricky. Do you persist with underperforming class or in form also rans?
So, do you promote a Nick Duigan who puts in a 4 goal quarter game changing performance? Or do you play a Kouta circa 1997 and hope he turns the corner?
Difficult question to answer, and I think you pick your times. Challenge a player against a difficult opponent and even if they dont meet their potential, they absolve themselves of having played against a red hot opponent if they dont work. The good players need an easy kill to turn it around IMHO, whilst the ones that have shown ability but lack confidence are better off getting a crack against a classy opponent so even if they arent dominant, they can put in a respectable day at the office.
Thats why im an advocate of Dow, and Kemp getting games now that we as a team aren't playing well. Fogarty for mine is a bit papers stamped but may as well give him a go and see how he goes, but you need to respect team balance else we just make it harder for everyone.
The likes of Carroll who just turned 20 in December and Honey who is turning 22 in October need to build form and fitness and wont transform team form. You play them on the periphery and hope they can contribute, rather than turn the team around when they aren't playing well. They just make it harder for the mainstays as they will vary in output. If we have a host of injuries, then you can pin your hopes to them, but their form is much more likely to be inconsistent minute to minute and ergo cost you game than anyone else, so you only play these types in place of mature performers if they are breaking down and not capable of performing adequately because those types will give you a quarter or two that will change the game.
This is where the likes of Fog, Dow, Kemp, Cincotta (I know, he's new but he's on borrowed time) must step up and give us something to challenge the mature agers. Mirkov can get a taste of it too vs a more mature opponent. Just throw that big frame around and be a pest please, and if it doesnt work, we can park him at full forward and drop it on his head. Might draw some frees, or give Harry and Charlie a better run at the footy but dont get in their way.
Kemp doesn't lack aggression, Spotted One.
And he’s never played in the midfield … not that we need more midfielders.
Kemp could play the McGovern role to perfection … and he’s unlikely to get a calf twinge or back spasm.
Kemp should be given a game, what do we have to lose by doing so ??
He's a good size and has some good skills, he's not going to get any better languishing in the seconds.
Given we just got spanked, there has to be 4-6 changes to send a mesage to every player at the club that losses like that will not be tolerated.
Plowman, Honey, Fisher need to be dropped with Pittonet to miss through injury.
Cincotta, Kemp, Binns & Mirkov to come in.
Kemp should be given a game, what do we have to lose by doing so ??
He's a good size and has some good skills, he's not going to get any better languishing in the seconds.
Given we just got spanked, there has to be 4-6 changes to send a mesage to every player at the club that losses like that will not be tolerated.
Plowman, Honey, Fisher need to be dropped with Pittonet to miss through injury.
Cincotta, Kemp, Binns & Mirkov to come in.
I think we need to go back to a seven man defensive rotation that doesn’t involve midfielders; that would be Weitering, Young, Newman, Cowan, Kemp, Cincotta and Saad (if fit).
Looks like Cottrell is back in the mix, he could be a big help to add a bit of both ways running, I doubt given his aerobic history that another week makes much difference.
Are Pittonet and McGovern definite outs for this weekend?
Are Pittonet and McGovern definite outs for this weekend?
Did either train today, if not I'd suggest they won't come up for Saturday, our current policy seems to be train Tuesday or you are done?
Sunday 3.20pm.
Usual 'cone of silience' when it comes to reporting on Injuries...
If Saad does not get up, surely it's time to play Kemp. If not now, when?
Looks like Cottrell is back in the mix, he could be a big help to add a bit of both ways running, I doubt given his aerobic history that another week makes much difference.
I think Acres/Hollands/Cottrell is a better defensive unit than Acres/Hollands/O’Brien.
Boyd should be back too but I think that he would need a game or two to fine tune his kicking.
Any word on Cuningham? Did he actually get reinjured?
I think Acres/Hollands/Cottrell is a better defensive unit than Acres/Hollands/O’Brien.
Boyd should be back too but I think that he would need a game or two to fine tune his kicking.
Training shots had both Boyd and Cottrell in action, both would be a risk but potentially important against a fleet of foot Saints team. If Saad and McGovern are out I would be tempted to bring both in.
Any word on Cuningham? Did he actually get reinjured?
Code of Sileince
Are Pittonet and McGovern definite outs for this weekend?
Word from some Facebook (ok sorry, Ill give myself an uppercut) dude is that Gov and Saad will get up, no word on Pitto. That probably means all 3 are out for the year.
Any word on Cuningham? Did he actually get reinjured?
Did a hammy getting off the toilet seat then dislocated his shoulder while having dinner then pulled a calf muscle while sitting on the couch.
Did a hammy getting off the toilet seat then dislocated his shoulder while having dinner then pulled a calf muscle while sitting on the couch.
All whilst at a party with the Rehab Team .....
Did a hammy getting off the toilet seat then dislocated his shoulder while having dinner then pulled a calf muscle while sitting on the couch.
We make jokes about it but sadly this is so close to the truth.
I can't wait to see team selections this week. Will the drop those in poor form (3-4 changes) and reward the efforts of those in the 2s or go with say minimal change and back the group who failed miserably in Thurs night in? Personally I prefer option one.
I can't wait to see team selections this week. Will the drop those in poor form (3-4 changes) and reward the efforts of those in the 2s or go with say minimal change and back the group who failed miserably in Thurs night in? Personally I prefer option one.
Im with you GTC, but I think the MC will be conservative and say the Crows were just having a night out and no need for any mass change unless injuries dictate more changes
10 day break makes a big difference to selection policy.
No Doc, No Saad....not a lot of drive off half-back. :(
No Doc, No Saad....not a lot of drive off half-back. :(
Every bloody week a key player drops out, you couldn't make this stuff up. If this means Plowman stays in...🤦🏻🤦🏻
Lord help us
Lord help us
Okay, I'll pull the boots on then.
Reckon Cincotta will get his debut.
About time we tried something new
Cincotta, Kemp and Dow in....and hopefully McGovern.
Cincotta, Kemp and Dow in....and hopefully McGovern.
Dont see Kemp playing if Plowman and McGovern are also in the team........
Lord help us
Saad is a big loss on top of Docherty if that hammy doesnt come up.....Higgins, Gresham and Butler is a decent array of small forwards and who ever picks up that kid Owens is going to be in for a surprise too as he can really play.
Saad has been ruled out EB. That only really leaves Plowman, Newman and Cowan as the "smaller" defenders....so likely we'll need at least one more for rotations. This idea of playing one of our mids back is ridiculous.
Pretty sure I heard McGovern has been ruled out also? Mind you it was Dwayne on SEN.
Saad has been ruled out EB. That only really leaves Plowman, Newman and Cowan as the "smaller" defenders....so likely we'll need at least one more for rotations. This idea of playing one of our mids back is ridiculous.
Surfie...Not sure I'd call them smaller defenders either like Saad...more mid sized, none of them are going to have the wheels or tricks to keep with the Saints small forwards like Higgins, Butler etc.
Dont have a problem with a mid playing back but they have to be able to defend those players not just pick up easy kicks...no use picking up 20 plus possies but Higgins and crew have kicked multiple goals on you...
Kemp is probably the only one with genuine leg speed though....we're down Williams, Docherty and Saad....not a lot left in the cupboard as far as small/medium defenders until someone like Boyd comes back....backline beginning to look a bit like last year, only the smaller blokes this year are going down.
No Doc, No Saad....
No Problem. We will smash them.
Pretty sure I heard McGovern has been ruled out also? Mind you it was Dwayne on SEN.
I heard Gov confirmed today he is right to go.
here is one from left field ,Honey lock down defender or LOB hbf try something different no more plowman please , cincotta and Gov in adds a bit of speed into team.
here is one from left field ,Honey lock down defender or LOB hbf try something different no more plowman please , cincotta and Gov in adds a bit of speed into team.
There, fixed it for you
Remember, we’ll have to wait until Friday night for real selection news. Tonight it’s just a squad of 26 and we know with Saad out that will mean 5 ins. I guess the only real news will be whether there are any other names in the outs.
Remember, we’ll have to wait until Friday night for real selection news. Tonight it’s just a squad of 26 and we know with Saad out that will mean 5 ins. I guess the only real news will be whether there are any other names in the outs.
Fair points, we know Saad is out for certain so they will only name him as an out and the rest 4 ins.
Gov Kemp Cincotta Fog or Dow
I have to admit that I fear the worst for us in this game unless we can find some much better form, and I don't mean just digging a bit deeper for this week. I am yet to be convinced about our ability to be consistently good. 🤔
A lot of players have been getting a free ride on poor form.
I wonder when this club will get serious on the selection table and drop players that are underperforming and giving players recognition for good form.
Kemp, Cincotta, Dow and Binns should play.
I have to admit that I fear the worst for us in this game unless we can find some much better form, and I don't mean just digging a bit deeper for this week. I am yet to be convinced about our ability to be consistently good. 🤔
I know one thing with almost absolute surety, we cannot play worse than last week.
I know one thing with almost absolute surety, we cannot play worse than last week.
That provides plenty of scope for us to put in a really crappy performance for this one GTC.
That provides plenty of scope for us to put in a really crappy performance for this one GTC.
I feel we can't possibly do so, I don't know why, I just don't think we will. We must and will bounce back, history shows we do.
I feel we can't possibly do so, I don't know why, I just don't think we will. We must and will bounce back, history shows we do.
I pray that you will be proved right mate! I really need a lift of spirit, something to give us some encouragement.
Im keen to see how Binns goes....another to add a bit of pace maybe?
I think we'll come pretty focussed this week.
It may be won or lost in the planning phase and the coach's box.
They have as many injuries as we do to key personal. We are supposed to be top 6 this year in most experts predications. They were predicated to be in the bottom 4. So lose this week and you won’t hear any excuses from me.
Their new coaches honeymoon period won’t last forever - my heart is afraid of losing to them as I can’t stand them and hate them more with Lyon as coach but my head says we are a better team and if we play to the level we showed towards the end of last year we win this.
Concern is we haven’t been able to find that level yet this year and anything less and Ross the boss with strangle the life out of us and get the points.
I’m well and truely on the fence this week. Have no idea how this one goes but hoping like hell we lift and find some form this week.
Im keen to see how Binns goes....another to add a bit of pace maybe?
Not sure he’s a speed demon. He’s regarded as a hard runner, in other words he has excellent endurance. That fits the modern wingman mould: the more endurance they have, the more distance they can cover from D50 to F50 and back again without needing spells on the bench, à la Ed Langdon. But I’m guessing Fisher, Saad, Honey and others would have him covered for straight-line speed.
On 2nd reading, maybe you were suggesting Binns and another to add pace rather than suggesting Binns would add that pace?
Mav....both him and Kemp is my thinking. We just look flat through the midfield at the moment. They might not be the solution...who knows...but along with Dow might just change things up a bit.
The Saints have an injury list way worse than ours including both key forwards who have been missing....and they've lost one game by not much to Collingwood. They seem to have adapted. If we'd lost Harry and Charlie combined for the first 4 games I'd suggest we would've been 0-4. King and Membrey aren't Harry and Charlie but they've found a way to conjure enough goals to win, while holding the opposition...even with some key defensive players missing as well....together with some midfielders like Steele, Billings, Jones etc.
Mav....both him and Kemp is my thinking. We just look flat through the midfield at the moment. They might not be the solution...who knows...but along with Dow might just change things up a bit.
The Saints have an injury list way worse than ours including both key forwards who have been missing....and they've lost one game by not much to Collingwood. They seem to have adapted. If we'd lost Harry and Charlie combined for the first 4 games I'd suggest we would've been 0-4. King and Membrey aren't Harry and Charlie but they've found a way to conjure enough goals to win, while holding the opposition...even with some key defensive players missing as well....together with some midfielders like Steele, Billings, Jones etc.
And its defending the smalls and mids that worries most about us. We need to find a way.
We really need Pitt to play and play well if we are to have any chance. Marshall is in top form and a break even against him will go a long way to success. I watched the GC v Freo and the difference in the end was Darcy being able to monster their kid in the ruck, Moyle. If Witts had played they would have won comfortably.
WASurfer, I wouldn’t have a problem if the selectors go that way. But the problem is that we can’t just include players who can tick just 1 box, e.g. speed.
First, we need to replace Saad. He’s one of our main rebounding defenders. He’s good at defending but has elite pace and kicking skills to be able to run the lines. We’ll struggle to find 1 player in the VFL who can tick all those boxes.
The Lyon press makes it hard to work the ball out by foot. That means pace by itself isn’t going to do the job. We’ll just see the ball slingshotting back to our D50. This is the concern with Dow. It would be great to see him bursting forward with the ball but if he turns it over straight away we’ll be in trouble. If he rotates into the centre square quartet, in one sense it doesn’t matter if he doesn’t defend well as no one else did last week therefore we don’t lose much. But it would help our game if he can prevent the Saints feeding the ball out of contests to their runners.
Binns has only had 1 AFL preseason and he’s not a big body. He has elite endurance which suits the wing but we can’t really put him in a man-on-man position or expect him to be an in-and-under. He isn’t blessed with super pace, so we can’t expect him to keep pace with Brad Hill. And his kicking isn’t his strong suit according to the draft gurus which isn’t ideal against the Saints who are itching to intercept and counterattack. We really need our wingers and high half forwards to be hitting our forwards on the chest with raking passes. We don’t want to see the high kicks going to predictable spots that made it easy for the Crows to intercept. LOB hasn’t impressed so far but he does have the ability to hit targets when he doesn’t lose his composure. He was marked harshly for that kick to Harry against Richmond but it was a perfect kick which hit Harry on the chest right in the middle of a number of defenders and it was only Harry’s slip that led to him dropping the mark. Another guy who seems to have the required kicking ability is Jordan Boyd but I can’t imagine that the foot injury would have allowed him to maintain aerobic fitness even if he is available for selection this week.
That said, Binns seems to be a true footballer with elite endurance rather than an athlete who needs to be fed and his form in the VFL is promising. And Hollands has been great out of the gate, so who knows?
Maybe Kemp has the sort of composure and kicking skills we need coming out of defence … I’d have to admit I haven’t seen enough VFL to say. Would he have the ability to handle the midsized Membrey? Perhaps Membrey’s not an ideal match-up for Weets who prefers to stay closer to goal and perhaps is a bit too wily and agile for Young.
What sort of strengths does Cincotta have as a defender? Who would he be be suited to in the likely Saints forward structure? Do we have any other smaller guys who are capable of defending the Saints’ small forwards (who can be dangerous but who aren’t superstars by any means)?
The cupboard isn’t overflowing, is it? That’s not really surprising given that injuries leave us trying to find some rough diamonds in the bottom half of our list.
Membrey is a smart footballer who finds space and can also outbody opponents in contests. Kemp has done well playing on larger key forwards and should be able to cope with Membrey’s strength. Kemp reads the play well and his marking is very good. He also has the foot speed to run off Membrey and keep him accountable. His disposal is generally very good and I’d certainly have him in the 22.
That doesn’t address the gap left by Saad and I think that Cincotta is our only real option. He doesn’t have Saad’s ability to break the lines (who does?) but he does provide run out off defence and his kicking is good.
If we do play Kemp, Weitering can focus more on intercept marking and distributing the ball from halfback.
Agreed Mav....I don't get to see much of the VFL action at all from over here so can only go on match reports and other comments. Point I guess was really we might need to mix it up a bit because apart from patches in games, we haven't looked that great.
Membrey has torched us a few times in the past and for a bloke who's actually not all that tall, he's very good overhead and I agree, neither Weitering or Young would be ideal match ups. Maybe McGovern goes to him or Kemp as suggested.
I can't remember who the Saints have been playing as second ruckmen but wonder if this is the week to go with just one....Pitto?
I wasn't suggesting Binns comes straight in this week but keen to see him get a gig soon. Hollands surprised us straight off the bat.
Yes we'll miss Saad. But Sinclair for them plays a similar role and from memory, was also AA last year? He plays as an attacking/rebounding half back who gets plenty of the ball.....have we learned anything from last week and maybe send someone to him like Adelaide did with Keays on Saad?
By sheer lack of small/medium defenders, Plowman probably gets a crack again this week.
We need big games from the likes of Acres and our midfield. Remember, Cripps had nearly a dozen goals on the board after round 5 last year but has hardly impacted this year.
Im pencilling in Membrey for 4 goals, which for Lyon's teams is halfway to a winning score.
St. Kilda are like a black hole for our team. Every time we play against them, for some reason they find a way to beat us, even when we are going well, and they arent. At the moment the inverse is true and I expect them to have some inside knowledge from SOS and Stocker on how to get the win against us.
The saints injury list vs ours is a misnomer. A new coach means that their top liners being in, might actually have hurt them, as he doesnt have to coach to strengths that are present, he just needs to get everyone playing "the system". He has done that in true Toss Lyon fashion. His win rate vs Carlton would be enormous.
Membrey is a good mark and a good converter under pressure, he doesnt need many possessions to kick 3-4 goals and Id be playing my best defender on him and forcing him far and wide to make his goal attempts harder.
Its going to sound strange but I would think about playing McGovern on Wilkie...think he has some record for winning the most one on ones in a row and has tasted success against players like Buddy Franklin keeping him to 4 possies in one game so he is a serious player and will be AA this season the way he is travelling.
Likewise in the middle we have to do something about Steele dogging Cripps all game and keeping him quiet while winning a decent amount of ball himself.
Voss and the coaching group were poor last week and need to lift as much as the players and employ some lateral thinking Imho.
WASurfer, I wouldn’t have a problem if the selectors go that way. But the problem is that we can’t just include players who can tick just 1 box, e.g. speed.
First, we need to replace Saad. He’s one of our main rebounding defenders. He’s good at defending but has elite pace and kicking skills to be able to run the lines. We’ll struggle to find 1 player in the VFL who can tick all those boxes.
The Lyon press makes it hard to work the ball out by foot. That means pace by itself isn’t going to do the job. We’ll just see the ball slingshotting back to our D50. This is the concern with Dow. It would be great to see him bursting forward with the ball but if he turns it over straight away we’ll be in trouble. If he rotates into the centre square quartet, in one sense it doesn’t matter if he doesn’t defend well as no one else did last week therefore we don’t lose much. But it would help our game if he can prevent the Saints feeding the ball out of contests to their runners.
Binns has only had 1 AFL preseason and he’s not a big body. He has elite endurance which suits the wing but we can’t really put him in a man-on-man position or expect him to be an in-and-under. He isn’t blessed with super pace, so we can’t expect him to keep pace with Brad Hill. And his kicking isn’t his strong suit according to the draft gurus which isn’t ideal against the Saints who are itching to intercept and counterattack. We really need our wingers and high half forwards to be hitting our forwards on the chest with raking passes. We don’t want to see the high kicks going to predictable spots that made it easy for the Crows to intercept. LOB hasn’t impressed so far but he does have the ability to hit targets when he doesn’t lose his composure. He was marked harshly for that kick to Harry against Richmond but it was a perfect kick which hit Harry on the chest right in the middle of a number of defenders and it was only Harry’s slip that led to him dropping the mark. Another guy who seems to have the required kicking ability is Jordan Boyd but I can’t imagine that the foot injury would have allowed him to maintain aerobic fitness even if he is available for selection this week.
That said, Binns seems to be a true footballer with elite endurance rather than an athlete who needs to be fed and his form in the VFL is promising. And Hollands has been great out of the gate, so who knows?
Maybe Kemp has the sort of composure and kicking skills we need coming out of defence … I’d have to admit I haven’t seen enough VFL to say. Would he have the ability to handle the midsized Membrey? Perhaps Membrey’s not an ideal match-up for Weets who prefers to stay closer to goal and perhaps is a bit too wily and agile for Young.
What sort of strengths does Cincotta have as a defender? Who would he be be suited to in the likely Saints forward structure? Do we have any other smaller guys who are capable of defending the Saints’ small forwards (who can be dangerous but who aren’t superstars by any means)?
The cupboard isn’t overflowing, is it? That’s not really surprising given that injuries leave us trying to find some rough diamonds in the bottom half of our list.
Weiters stated on the Whately show the other morning he will get Membrey if he plays.
This will be a big test for Vossy and crew.
If we are going to be a Top 8 contender we need to bounce back
from that tripe last week. I stupidly thought the 10 goal floggings were gone.
I expect the MC to make minimal changes, they will put it on the players to turn it around. Looking at the VFL Kemp or Cincotto for Saad.
Watched the Aints closely last week. Their half-backs get heaps of ball and set-up well. Especially Hill. Won't be high scoring because of the Lyon Press. They love the scrap for the ball and are very hard at it.
Worrying signs if we get another flogging, probably good they have the WC seconds next week.
This will be a big test for Vossy and crew.
If we are going to be a Top 8 contender we need to bounce back
from that tripe last week. I stupidly thought the 10 goal floggings were gone.
I expect the MC to make minimal changes, they will put it on the players to turn it around. Looking at the VFL Kemp or Cincotto for Saad.
Watched the Aints closely last week. Their half-backs get heaps of ball and set-up well. Especially Hill. Won't be high scoring because of the Lyon Press. They love the scrap for the ball and are very hard at it.
Worrying signs if we get another flogging, probably good they have the WC seconds next week.
SH I get the "back the players in" and "put in on the players" approach but in my mind, it promotes mediocrity if you do it for a long time. Its a band-aid approach. We have been doing this for far too long and it becomes a cycle. That is:
- Lose badly
- Back the Players
- Bounce back for a win
- Win a few, lose a few
- Lose Badly
and so on.
At what point does the MC need to make a statement?
We have players playing very well in the 2's:
- Dow, Kemp, Cincotta, Fogarty, Binns)
We have absolute passengers week in week out in the 1s:
- Fisher Honey Plowman (albeit for one week) SOS (as hard as he tries and gets thrown around)
Nuffs enuff.
I've been reading articles about the Saints Pies game - the Saints apparently are No1 for boundary ball movement, and the Pies (and McRae) blocked the boundary, forcing the Saints to go inboard, forcing turnovers which were pounced on by the Pies. The talk is that this tactic basically won Collingwood the game.
Food for thought Vossy and Co...........
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2023/04/18/champion-data-reveals-how-mcraes-bizarre-plan-forced-saints-into-near-record/
How many more rounds before we start a "Voss versus Ross" thread? If they keep winning and we keep spluttering...
Hoping for the following changes this week
Out: Saad, Plow, Hewitt/Ed, Pitto or SOS
In: Kemp, Cincotta, Dow, Gov
Sub: Ed
Honey loses his sub role
Think Hewy needs a rest to get over the hand, if he's ok to go I'd drop Ed. Dow needs another chance and we need the pace.
I think we have to reassess whether we can play 2 rucks and SOS, especially as TDK needs to develop his forward work.
Weiters stated on the Whately show the other morning he will get Membrey if he plays.
I’m not sure it was that clear cut, GIC. The relevant bit was at about the 13:30 minute mark:
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/video/1311604/weitering-on-gather-round-saints-preview?videoId=1311604&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1681880046001 (https://www.carltonfc.com.au/video/1311604/weitering-on-gather-round-saints-preview?videoId=1311604&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1681880046001)
The other week I went with friends to the VFL game between Sandringham and Gold Coast at the revamped Saints ground at Moorabbin.
With approximately 200 people in attendance and the ability to wander onto the field at quarter and three quarter time to listen to the coaches, I was reminded of local district matches I attended years ago.
There was a complete lack of atmosphere and this was reflected in the lack of pressure applied by the players during the game.
My lasting impression of the game is that it showed quite starkly the gulf in ability of players in the VFL compared with AFL.
As pathetic as some on our list are, I would be reluctant to bring in more than two from our VFL ranks this week.
Ins: Mitch McGovern, Lochie O'Brien, Alex Cincotta, Brodie Kemp.
Outs: Adam Saad (hamstring)
Macca, I watched the replay of the Carlton v Richmond match and it was also underwhelming. Richmond only had 4 AFL-listed players (and no senior players amongst them) while we had 12. Despite this advantage and Mirkov dwarfing their ruckmen, we could hardly score. Not greatly encouraging.
Ins: Mitch McGovern, Lochie O'Brien, Alex Cincotta, Brodie Kemp.
Outs: Adam Saad (hamstring)
Back to the tried and failed with LOB.......Kemp and McGovern play the same position as does Plowman.
On the plus side Cincotta has earned his promotion.
Backs: Nic Newman Jacob Weitering Lewis Young
Half-backs: Lachlan Cowan Mitch McGovern Blake Acres
Centreline: Sam Walsh Patrick Cripps Oliver Hollands
Half-forwards: Ed Curnow Harry McKay Jack Silvagni
Forwards: Corey Durdin Charlie Curnow Jesse Motlop
Followers: Marc Pittonet George Hewett Adam Cerra
Interchange from: Matthew Kennedy Zac Fisher Josh Honey Lochie O'Brien Brodie Kemp Tom De Koning Alex Cincotta Lachie Plowman
For mine...
Interchange - Kennedy - Fisher - Cincotta - Plowman
Sub - Kemp
EMG - TDK, Honey, LOB
Back to the tried and failed with LOB.......Kemp and McGovern play the same position as does Plowman.
On the plus side Cincotta has earned his promotion.
extended bench. I don't expect LOB to play.
Extended bench:
Matthew Kennedy
Zac Fisher
Josh Honey
Lochie O'Brien
Brodie Kemp
Tom De Koning
Alex Cincotta
Lachie Plowman
I'll take Kennedy, DeKoning, Cincotta, O'Brien.
Gov is named in the 18
Back to the tried and failed with LOB.......Kemp and McGovern play the same position as does Plowman.
On the plus side Cincotta has earned his promotion.
And Fisher survives, might have to call him 9 Lives or rather 99 Lives.
Little or no change it seems, MC want to fall on their sword.
So Mr Plowman gets yet another opportunity to make us look like idiots yet again. What will his deer in the headlights moment be this week i wonder. He will be hard pressed to beat last weeks antics.
Sadly proves the bar still pretty low at PP that we are forced to use this level of footballer.
Ins: Mitch McGovern, Lochie O'Brien, Alex Cincotta, Brodie Kemp.
Outs: Adam Saad (hamstring)
As I said. MC have put it on last weeks non-performers
to turn it around. Surely Cincotto must play...
Backs: Nic Newman Jacob Weitering Lewis Young
Half-backs: Lachlan Cowan Mitch McGovern Blake Acres
Centreline: Sam Walsh Patrick Cripps Oliver Hollands
Half-forwards: Ed Curnow Harry McKay Jack Silvagni
Forwards: Corey Durdin Charlie Curnow Jesse Motlop
Followers: Marc Pittonet George Hewett Adam Cerra
Interchange from: Matthew Kennedy Zac Fisher Josh Honey Lochie O'Brien Brodie Kemp Tom De Koning Alex Cincotta Lachie Plowman
For mine...
Interchange - Kennedy - Fisher - Cincotta - Plowman
Sub - Kemp
EMG - TDK, Honey, LOB
Id have TDK in for Plowman.....Marshall is the form ruck in the comp, think we need both our rucks for this game.
As I said. MC have put it on last weeks non-performers
to turn it around. Surely Cincotto must play...
And they might very well regret it.
Dow and Fogarty not even making it in the squad.
We saw how one ruck worked in the second half of last year.
Saints have named Tom Campbell so might be going with 2 ruckmen?
Dow and Fogarty not even making it in the squad.
Safe to say they won't play 1s again and will be gone at years end.
Pinot.....surely that means Dow's papers are stamped now....at least that's how he'd be seeing it I reckon.
Dow and Fogarty not even making it in the squad.
I feel for Dow, he can't do any more and our midfield couldn't do any worse.
Interchange from:
Matthew Kennedy (first game back from injury last week - but was very poor)
Zac Fisher (one decent game in five is a dropping)
Josh Honey (showed no VFL form to get a game)
Lochie O'Brien (seriously underwhelming in all the minutes he has played no reason to persist)
Brodie Kemp (showing good form, select)
Tom De Koning (all over the shop)
Alex Cincotta (showing good form, select)
Lachie Plowman (showing good form, sub at best)
Dow and Fogarty not even making it in the squad.
Agree....VFL Form doesnt mean much it seems, its just where you sit in the pecking order of popularity and those two dont appear popular.
Again with the conservatism. Keep on going with what you feel safe with and you'll keep getting what you've always gotten. ::)
I hope someone is having some good words with Dow... how much rejection can the kid handle?
Agree....VFL Form doesnt mean much it seems, its just where you sit in the pecking order of popularity and those two dont appear popular.
So why not move them on and open up 2 list spots in last years off season. Nope lets keep them and not play them regardless how well there 2nds form is. Then give them away for nothing in this years off season.
Dumb club
For all we know, Dow was told at the end of last year that he’d be stuck in the VFL. Harry Madden was told he’d play reserves if he continued to play and after playing several reserve games he retired. But Dow is well-paid for a VFL player, so he had little reason to walk away.
Again with the conservatism. Keep on going with what you feel safe with and you'll keep getting what you've always gotten. ::)
I hope someone is having some good words with Dow... how much rejection can the kid handle?
Think he would be real disappointed after telling the club he wanted to stay and fight for his position and has probably been the most consistent of all the VFL players this season. Only think I can think of is he isnt reaching Key Indicators in terms of his defensive work because he has been getting decent numbers in most other areas.
https://youtu.be/qYWHKJflfoY
can we hire this guy?
Back to the tried and failed with LOB.......Kemp and McGovern play the same position as does Plowman.
On the plus side Cincotta has earned his promotion.
Kemp and McGovern don’t play the same position although Kemp could do McGovern’s role. Almost every game Kemp has played has been as a KPD, albeit a little undersized but still able to match it with his larger opponent.
Kemp also has the foot speed and the step to break the lines and he could well be in line for the Docherty or Saad roles.
Similarly, Plowman doesn’t play the same role is McGovern (as was demonstrated last week) or Kemp. Plow is your solid 3rd tall who tends to get caught out when his teammates over commit.
With Cincotta (who has a toolkit that’s closer to what the Docherty/Saad roles require), we have gone from six defenders and a midfielder to eight defenders. I’m not confident that McGovern will run out but, if he does, one of our defenders will have a different role.
I would have preferred to see Fogarty among the ins but O’Brien’s ability to run harder for longer must have been valued more.
I suspect that a few players are on their last chance and others have something to prove. The team selection suggests that our coaching group has a plan to stymie Lyon’s reliance on sticking to the boundary.
Time will tell but Go Blues!
Out of interest, which one of our midfielders should be dropped for Dow?
I would have picked Fogarty ahead of Fisher but I can’t really see Dow playing Fish’s role and I don’t think that he provides more than the other mids in the 22.
Out of interest, which one of our midfielders should be dropped for Dow?
I would have picked Fogarty ahead of Fisher but I can’t really see Dow playing Fish’s role and I don’t think that he provides more than the other mids in the 22.
I'm not saying anyone but our midfield have been smashed the last 2 weeks and he couldn't do anymore to get a game.
There’s plenty of room for changes. For all we know, Gov’s inclusion is a ruse.
I'm not saying anyone but our midfield have been smashed the last 2 weeks and he couldn't do anymore to get a game.
But Dow still has to take someone’s spot and do a better job.
Kennedy was probably the least effective of our midfielders but he played in defence. I don’t think that Dow would shine as a defender.
Hewett still seems to be favouring his injured hand but, again, I don’t think that Dow would be an improvement.
That leaves Cripps, Walsh, Cerra, Ed Curnow, Fisher, Acres and Hollands. Hollands could probably do with a spell but Dow couldn’t match his two way running.
But Dow still has to take someone’s spot and do a better job.
Kennedy was probably the least effective of our midfielders but he played in defence. I don’t think that Dow would shine as a defender.
Hewett still seems to be favouring his injured hand but, again, I don’t think that Dow would be an improvement.
That leaves Cripps, Walsh, Cerra, Ed Curnow, Fisher, Acres and Hollands. Hollands could probably do with a spell but Dow couldn’t match his two way running.
Dow's poor foot skills were one of the reasons he failed to hold a spot in the firsts. If they have not improved, what is the point of selecting him?
We have had years of our backs being put under pressure because of turnovers further up the field caused by poor field kicking.
Dow's poor foot skills were one of the reasons he failed to hold a spot in the firsts. If they have not improved, what is the point of selecting him?
We have had years of our backs being put under pressure because of turnovers further up the field caused by poor field kicking.
Then why not delist him in the off season and select someone who might just be able to provide us with another depth option?
Like we are rubbing his nose in it.
Eight reason why we'll win this week:
1. 10 day break
2. 10 days to stew over crap performance and rectify it.
3. McGovern in to add stability and precision kicking from the back half.
4. Walsh, game under his belt and extended time to recover.
5. Kennedy/ see Walsh (and he won't be played out of position.)
6. Pitto will be on the park the whole game and he and TDK will wear Marshall down.
7. It's at Marvel! Cue Harry and Charlie.
8. We aren't as bad as last week showed!
We will be relaxing by the 15 minute mark of the final quarter!!
Go Blues!
Then why not delist him in the off season and select someone who might just be able to provide us with another depth option?
Like we are rubbing his nose in it.
You'll get no argument from me. If he is not up to scratch then he is just clogging the list.
Then why not delist him in the off season and select someone who might just be able to provide us with another depth option?
Like we are rubbing his nose in it.
Dow was contracted and couldn’t just be delisted. List management 101.
We shopped him around but no-one was interested.
Dow was contracted and couldn’t just be delisted. List management 101.
We shopped him around but no-one was interested.
Word was tigers would have taken him.
Put list is finally at the stage of pushing for a finals spot and depth is vital not a single spot on the list should be taken unless it’s taken by a player the club feels will be used for the goal of making finals.
Dows form warrants promotion esp considering the injuries we have. He could easily have been swapped for fisher who had been average for too long but we just rinse and repeat.
It’s not the way the stronger clubs operate.
We will be relaxing by the 15 minute mark of the final quarter!!
Allowing sufficient time for the Saints to kick enough junk-time goals to beat us by a few points!
Word was tigers would have taken him.
Put list is finally at the stage of pushing for a finals spot and depth is vital not a single spot on the list should be taken unless it’s taken by a player the club feels will be used for the goal of making finals.
Dows form warrants promotion esp considering the injuries we have. He could easily have been swapped for fisher who had been average for too long but we just rinse and repeat.
It’s not the way the stronger clubs operate.
Agree with this, Fisher, Honey Plowman should be playing ones this week (Honey should never play again.
I was watching a podcast interview with Aleks Marcou. It went for an hour, very funny as usual but he talks about our side from 79-82. In the last 5 minutes, he talks about our small forwards and talks about how they simply aren't doing enough and that's what's holding us back. I agree with this. He talked about how all of them averaged 1.3 goals a game so between them, they kicked 6-8 week in out. Whilst he didn't name names, he was talking about Motlop, Durdin, Owies, Honey, Martin (we he plays) and Fisher. I feel like we dont seem dump players when they are in poor form, we shuffle deck chairs and invent positions for them that they are invariably even worse at. I am so looking forward to how this week plays out. If we lose and all the results go angst us, we will drop out of the 8 and I fear we won't get back in. That will be a huge disappointment.
Allowing sufficient time for the Saints to kick enough junk-time goals to beat us by a few points!
Too true, the Saints nearly rolled over the Pies at the end and its not like the Pies are a team that doesnt play out the game properly so we need to be well in front early in the last quarter.
Interchange from:
Matthew Kennedy (first game back from injury last week - but was very poor)
Zac Fisher (one decent game in five is a dropping)
Josh Honey (showed no VFL form to get a game)
Lochie O'Brien (seriously underwhelming in all the minutes he has played no reason to persist)
Brodie Kemp (showing good form, select)
Tom De Koning (all over the shop)
Alex Cincotta (showing good form, select)
Lachie Plowman (showing good form, sub at best)
My hope is that the interchange will be: Kennedy, Kemp, TDK & Cincotta with Kemp to replace Gov if he doesn't come up.
Reality is that the interchange will be: Kennedy, Fisher, Plowman and TDK with LOB as the sub. I strongly suspect that Lloyd is the one responsible for the conservative and safe selections on the MC. I still have concerns about this bloke as our head of football. I hope Vossy is a 'bold' voice pushing back against Lloyd.
regarding small forwards, small Durdin is our best by a country mile. Owies work rate is second. Motlop is probably the one that comes in and out of games, but overall they are the best we have.
The rest arent really worth mentioning. Martin has a high workrate, and is a good player but cant get on the park.
regarding small forwards, small Durdin is our best by a country mile. Owies work rate is second. Motlop is probably the one that comes in and out of games, but overall they are the best we have.
The rest arent really worth mentioning. Martin has a high workrate, and is a good player but cant get on the park.
Martin might have high work rate (personally I dont see it) but he has zero (or close to it) impact.
Both Motlop and Durdin are averaging over a goal a game. Durdin has 5 goals from 4 games and Motlop has 6 goals from 5 games (although 1 of those was gifted when Coniglio was penalised for dissent). I guess we can’t ask much more from guys who are hardly in the running for AA selection. If only we had an elite small forward such as Kossie Pickett or Josh Rachele.
Both Motlop and Durdin are averaging over a goal a game. Durdin has 5 goals from 4 games and Motlop has 6 goals from 5 games (although 1 of those was gifted when Coniglio was penalised for dissent). I guess we can’t ask much more from guys who are hardly in the running for AA selection. If only we had an elite small forward such as Kossie Pickett or Josh Rachele.
It's not about goals its about what forward pressure they create, retaining the ball in the forward line and creating opportunities for others and that all comes under the heading of work rate and that's where questions are being asked of these players.
Both Motlop and Durdin are averaging over a goal a game. Durdin has 5 goals from 4 games and Motlop has 6 goals from 5 games (although 1 of those was gifted when Coniglio was penalised for dissent). I guess we can’t ask much more from guys who are hardly in the running for AA selection. If only we had an elite small forward such as Kossie Pickett or Josh Rachele.
Rachele may be elite eventually but he isn't there yet in my eyes.
He’s on track for 50 goals, so he’s not your average bear.
It's not about goals it about what forward pressure they create, retaining the ball in the forward line and creating opportunities for others and that all comes under the heading of work rate and that's where questions are being asked of these players.
Ive changed my view on all this, for me its 100% all about goals, our smalls simply do not do enough. No more Mrs Nice Guy and fluff team stats. I get it, they are young, but so is say Ranking and Rachele. Their mindset must change to a feral desire to hit the scoreboard at all costs, that may involve being selfish at times and demanding the footy to be in their hands (even from Charlie and H). Little Fellas are allowed to have big personalities and behave like "The Big Dog". Edidie was exactly this in his prime, "gimme the ball and let me go to work". They have the skills, especially Durdin, time to shine kids.
Ive changed my view on all this, for me its 100% all about goals, our smalls simply do not do enough. No more Mrs Nice Guy and fluff team stats. I get it, they are young, but so is say Ranking and Rachele. Their mindset must change to a feral desire to hit the scoreboard at all costs, that may involve being selfish at times and demanding the footy to be in their hands (even from Charlie and H). Little Fellas are allowed to have big personalities and behave like "The Big Dog". Edidie was exactly this in his prime, "gimme the ball and let me go to work". They have the skills, especially Durdin, time to shine kids.
Richmond won three flags with high pressure small forwards.
Saints are flying with Higgins, Butler and Gresham...they get plenty of ball because they get involved a lot. They just don't wait to cherry pick goals and do nothing else.
Our lot don't work hard enough for each other and the team imho...
Every time I am lining up to go into a Carlton game, I am wondering if we will see the Dr Jekyll or the Mr Hyde. You can usually tell in the first 10 minutes if the group mindset is switched on.
I want to see one simple thing on Sunday - just get out there and put in 110% from minute 1 until minute 120. If the effort is there, the results take care of themselves.
It's not about goals its about what forward pressure they create, retaining the ball in the forward line and creating opportunities for others and that all comes under the heading of work rate and that's where questions are being asked of these players.
Both Motlop and Durdin are averaging over a goal a game. Durdin has 5 goals from 4 games and Motlop has 6 goals from 5 games (although 1 of those was gifted when Coniglio was penalised for dissent). I guess we can’t ask much more from guys who are hardly in the running for AA selection. If only we had an elite small forward such as Kossie Pickett or Josh Rachele.
Would we be reasonably happy with 30 goals from both Durdin and Motlop at seasons end along one power forward kicking 80 and the other 50... all on track for those figures.
Ive changed my view on all this, for me its 100% all about goals, our smalls simply do not do enough. No more Mrs Nice Guy and fluff team stats. I get it, they are young, but so is say Ranking and Rachele. Their mindset must change to a feral desire to hit the scoreboard at all costs, that may involve being selfish at times and demanding the footy to be in their hands (even from Charlie and H). Little Fellas are allowed to have big personalities and behave like "The Big Dog". Edidie was exactly this in his prime, "gimme the ball and let me go to work". They have the skills, especially Durdin, time to shine kids.
We've had 2 different coleman medalists in the past 2 years and you are complaining are small forwards don't kick enough goals?
How many goals do you expect us to kick?
If the big blokes are kicking the goals, small forwards pressuring is all we need.
If the big blokes can't kick goals, then sure, small forwards need to step up.
As it is, we have a good balance that works for us.
I guess we can’t ask much more from guys who are hardly in the running for AA selection. If only we had an elite small forward such as Kossie Pickett or Josh Rachele.
So much of this depends on team tactics, it's not really fair to compare players on such uneven terms.
Rochelle basically came into a club that had a SF crumbing game plan developed around Betts over a decade.
Kossie Pickett plays in a team with no clearly defined KPF, Gawn is probably their closest thing to a KPF this season, and can you imagine our Durdin and Motlop with Gawn working for them inside F50?
We complain too much about who, and we don't really complain enough about not getting the best out of what we've got. FFS, we have two Coleman medallists inside F50 and a game plan that sits the pill on their head at least 50% of the time! Mostly Charlie and BigH are occupying 2 or more defenders, and we bomb it to them, where is our decision making, where is our spare numbers if Charlie and BigH have 2 or more guarding them? :o
Think of last Thursday, when the Crow onballers and HBs were running off our Mids in numbers, when we occasionally forced a turnover, FFS how can it be we were kicking to contests when many of our Mids and HF had already trailed behind the streaming Crows? The Crows had numbers forward of the ball, and numbers behind the ball, we must have been beaten at the contest by ghosts!
Every time I am lining up to go into a Carlton game, I am wondering if we will see the Dr Jekyll or the Mr Hyde. You can usually tell in the first 10 minutes if the group mindset is switched on.
I want to see one simple thing on Sunday - just get out there and put in 110% from minute 1 until minute 120. If the effort is there, the results take care of themselves.
And sometimes, despite that effort, the results dont go your way. Ill cop that, I will not however cop the performance v Adelaide.
Every time I am lining up to go into a Carlton game, I am wondering if we will see ................
Mate, "Carlton is the definition of Melbourne", four season in a day!
Even back in the old days, the golden days, we rarely got more than one good quarter, actually back then that was all that we needed!
Mate, "Carlton is the definition of Melbourne", four season in a day!
Even back in the old days, the golden days, we rarely got more than one good quarter, actually back then that was all that we needed!
Except 1995. That was the most complete year/season I have every seen, 4 qtr performances virtually every week. You just turned up every week knowing with almost 100% we would win.
Except 1995. That was the most complete year/season I have every seen, 4 qtr performances virtually every week. You just turned up every week knowing with almost 100% we would win.
Greg Williams was a freak of nature, you'll never see another like him, he and Lethal are the only players I've ever seen in history that would still when when the team around them was losing.
The club has announced that Cincotta will debut: https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/1312126/cincotta-to-debut-on-sunday (https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/1312126/cincotta-to-debut-on-sunday).
Mav...Cincotta presumably a direct replacement in the 22 for Saad? If we believe the club and McGovern is also right, who comes out for him?
I'm staggered if Honey and LOB are both in the 22.
IMO I'd have Honey, O'Brien out, along with Saad, and have McGovern, Kemp and Cincotta in....maybe Plowman as emergency. Is TDK named in the 22....maybe we do change it up and play one ruckman?
Could those with Italian backgrounds explain why Cincotta is pronounced Sin-COT-ta rather than Chin-COT-ta?
Of course, families are entitled to pronounce their surnames as they wish and those wishes should be respected. Oddly enough, Scott Camporeale seemed surprised to discover that in Italy his surname would be pronounced Cam-po-ree-ARL-ee. And of course some pronunciations are driven by the need to separate the name from English words, such as the surname Koch (pronounced David Cosh or the Coke brothers in the US). And then we have the 2 different ways of saying Fogarty.
Could those with Italian backgrounds explain why Cincotta is pronounced Sin-COT-ta rather than Chin-COT-ta? .......................................
The rules dictate that a C followed by an E or I is pronounced as you suggest. Not sure why it's supposedly "Sincotta".
https://dailyitalianwords.com/italian-pronunciation-challenge-c-ch-cc/
Mav, if you're referring to the highlights package on the CFC website, I'd say those commentators simply don't know they're mispronouncing it. Hopefully "Chincotta" himself knows the right way.
It’s hard to imagine that someone from Carlton wouldn’t have corrected the commentators at some point if they had it wrong. Zac Williams was a guest commentator in the 1st quarter of the Carlton v Richmond VFL game but didn’t do so.
Could those with Italian backgrounds explain why Cincotta is pronounced Sin-COT-ta rather than Chin-COT-ta?
Of course, families are entitled to pronounce their surnames as they wish and those wishes should be respected. Oddly enough, Scott Camporeale seemed surprised to discover that in Italy his surname would be pronounced Cam-po-ree-ARL-ee. And of course some pronunciations are driven by the need to separate the name from English words, such as the surname Koch (pronounced David Cosh or the Coke brothers in the US). And then we have the 2 different ways of saying Fogarty.
Chin-COT-ta
Mav, if you're referring to the highlights package on the CFC website, I'd say those commentators simply don't know they're mispronouncing it. Hopefully "Chincotta" himself knows the right way.
Not always Pauly. Some Italians seem to be ashamed of their heritage and/or just dont give a crap about proper pronunciation. Perfect example is Leigh Mon-tag-na who went to great lengths to butcher it on purpose. Recently Josh Ro-shell-i's dad explained that the proper way is Ra-keh-leh but everyone uses Ro-shell-i. Only recent one who bothers to correct everyone is Chris Pet-truck-a. Even our former Formula 1 ace Danny Rick-ardo doesnt pronounce his name properly. As you will know, proper pronunciation is Rich-arrdo with an accent or role on the rr. I have been in Italy watching Italian F1 telecasts and they pronounce it properly thank god.
WASurfer, I agree Cincotta is a like-for-like replacement for Saad (or at least as close as we could find outside last week’s team), but that doesn’t mean he will inherit Saad’s role. I think the “next man up” philosophy has its limits and until Cincotta can prove himself in the seniors he won’t be treated as Saad Mk 2. Newman would now be the leader of the small/midsized defenders.
That leaves us with 2 tall defenders in Weets and Young, tallish defenders in Gov & Plowman/Kemp (or maybe even JSOS), Newman and Cowan. Cincotta may be the 7th defender. Much depends on what we do with Young and Weets. Having some height isn’t a bad thing as the Saints might throw Marshall forward and he’s not a bad forward. But if Membrey and Owen are their talls, what do we do with Weets and Young? Weets did say he’ll likely be on Membrey at some stage but he also said he prefers to play deeper and Membrey prefers to play as a link man and that’s not an ideal match up for him. He also noted Membrey has a good vertical jump and that seemed to concern him. Can Young play smaller on mobile forwards like Owen or does he need to play on a tall marking forward? In a recent game, Young had the fastest sprint for our boys: 33.7 km/h. Remember that Dustin Fletcher was very tall (198 cm) but he regularly played on small forwards such as Phil Matera and we all still have nightmares over the rundown tackle of Jeff Garlett to force a draw. Maybe he can do the same sort of job for us on a small who marks well above his head. The concern is whether he has the necessary agility.
If Gov is fit to go, it seems the only changes will be:
In Gov Cinque Lire
Out Saad Plow
The rest of the poor performer from last week will likely survive.
Not always Pauly. Some Italians seem to be ashamed of their heritage and/or just dont give a crap about proper pronunciation. Perfect example is Leigh Mon-tag-na who went to great lengths to butcher it on purpose. Recently Josh Ro-shell-i's dad explained that the proper way is Ra-keh-leh but everyone uses Ro-shell-i. Only recent one who bothers to correct everyone is Chris Pet-truck-a. Even our former Formula 1 ace Danny Rick-ardo doesnt pronounce his name properly. As you will know, proper pronunciation is Rich-arrdo with an accent or role on the rr. I have been in Italy watching Italian F1 telecasts and they pronounce it properly thank god.
Yes, I guess some people will have their own reasons for ignoring the rules. If Cincotta himself prefers "Sincotta" then so be it. We have to respect that. But it seems bizarre. It doesn't make it any less woggy or any easier to pronounce. Sin or Chin ?
I could partly understand someone like Camporeale letting "Camporelli" go through uncorrected. The correct pronunciation is a bit harder than its incorrect variant.
WASurfer, I agree Cincotta is a like-for-like replacement for Saad (or at least as close as we could find outside last week’s team), but that doesn’t mean he will inherit Saad’s role. I think the “next man up” philosophy has its limits and until Cincotta can prove himself in the seniors he won’t be treated as Saad Mk 2. Newman would now be the leader of the small/midsized defenders.
That leaves us with 2 tall defenders in Weets and Young, tallish defenders in Gov & Plowman/Kemp (or maybe even JSOS), Newman and Cowan. Cincotta may be the 7th defender. Much depends on what we do with Young and Weets. Having some height isn’t a bad thing as the Saints might throw Marshall forward and he’s not a bad forward. But if Membrey and Owen are their talls, what do we do with Weets and Young? Weets did say he’ll likely be on Membrey at some stage but he also said he prefers to play deeper and Membrey prefers to play as a link man and that’s not an ideal match up for him. He also noted Membrey has a good vertical jump and that seemed to concern him. Can Young play smaller on mobile forwards like Owen or does he need to play on a tall marking forward? In a recent game, Young had the fastest sprint for our boys: 33.7 km/h. Remember that Dustin Fletcher was very tall (198 cm) but he regularly played on small forwards such as Phil Matera and we all still have nightmares over the rundown tackle of Jeff Garlett to force a draw. Maybe he can do the same sort of job for us on a small who marks well above his head. The concern is whether he has the necessary agility.
The beauty of Cincotta is every one of his kicks are planner and well excuted on both sides. None of this kick in hope aorund the corner crap. He reminds me alot of Heath Scotland in both running and kicking style. Heath was the best kick our football club has ever seen IMO and we have had some beauties. If Cincotta is half as good a kick he'll be ok.
There was a Cincotta at school in the 80s - pronounced Sin....
I don't have a good vibe about the game - we don't often perform well when there is pressure to do so.
I haven’t followed the VFL closely enough to have much to say about Cincotta. But if he does possess elite kicking skills, it’s outrageous he’s had to wait until 26 for his first opportunity. Yes, he had an ACL injury a year or two back, but still…
Having watched the replay of last week’s VFL game, Kemp’s kicking was very shaky. He seemed to lack confidence in it and compensated by giving his short passes a bit of air and they tended to fall a bit short. That ended in disaster when he took a mark in the back pocket from a kick out and then floated a pass to a team mate in the hot spot. It would have hit his team mate on the chest but the oddly named Steely Green had plenty of time to intercept. Fortunately for Kemp, Green missed the easy set shot. I hope that Kemp’s kicking is usually of a higher quality.
Not always Pauly. Some Italians seem to be ashamed of their heritage and/or just dont give a crap about proper pronunciation. Perfect example is Leigh Mon-tag-na who went to great lengths to butcher it on purpose. Recently Josh Ro-shell-i's dad explained that the proper way is Ra-keh-leh but everyone uses Ro-shell-i. Only recent one who bothers to correct everyone is Chris Pet-truck-a. Even our former Formula 1 ace Danny Rick-ardo doesnt pronounce his name properly. As you will know, proper pronunciation is Rich-arrdo with an accent or role on the rr. I have been in Italy watching Italian F1 telecasts and they pronounce it properly thank god.
My wife got corrected on how to say her own surname at an Italian club once.
My wife got corrected on how to say her own surname at an Italian club once.
One thing about the Italian language, there are none of these words where there are multiple versions spelt differently but pronounced the same. In Italian, how the word is written is how it's pronounced.
Chin-COT-ta
My wife agree's....she says the Cincotta's ran the greengrocery in Station St Box Hill for years and thats how they pronounced their name.
I grew up with a bunch of Cincottas, quite a large clan, one of them became a backing vocalist and musician with John Farnham's band.
As far as I know they all pronounce it Sin-Cotta, but who cares, isn't it really down to the family how they pronounce their own name?
Whilst this discussion has strayed well off topic, I think the salient issue is whether folks (in this case Italian folks) need to stick to the rules of pronunciation, or whether they are free to determine the pronunciation of their names as they see fit, especially in a country where Italian is not the first language. I say it's a little odd, but not unreasonable.
I work with Yi Yu Fa, I think that is the official order of names, he pronounces it David but with Aaah instead of Aa.
I grew up with a bunch of Cincottas, quite a large clan, one of them became a backing vocalist and musician with John Farnham's band.
As far as I know they all pronounce it Sin-Cotta, but who cares, isn't it really down to the family how they pronounce their own name?
Are they the naughty ones?
Are they the naughty ones?
Well, they breed like rabbits, a good Catholic family, if they had one they had a dozen!
This whole off-topic debate reminds me of Chautauqua.
Mav/GTC...certainly wasn't implying Cincotta is expected to come in and be a like for like replacement for Saad....more in the type of player. I think Gov and Cincotta in for Saad and Plowman is about right but very surprised that Honey and O'Brien are still getting a crack ahead of Dow and Kemp.
I was thinking the same about Young. He's been pretty consistent for us but is there an ideal match up for him? If they play Campbell then there's a chance that Marshall pushes forward at stages. Got a sneaky feeling we might go with Pitto and JSOS this week and TDK might miss out.
I knew multipl sincotta's over the journey (spelt phonetically based on what they called themselves).
I do work for a Chentorrino (Centorrino) at the moment.
Could it be as simple as regional dialect might impact it? Some parts of Italy might debate the most appropriate pronunciation?
I knew multipl sincotta's over the journey (spelt phonetically based on what they called themselves).
I do work for a Chentorrino (Centorrino) at the moment.
Could it be as simple as regional dialect might impact it? Some parts of Italy might debate the most appropriate pronunciation?
As in Cento (100). Rosario? Bruno?
As for how he goes, Im going to say that he will be a revelation and star. Sometimes players just need that opportunity and he has been a class above VFL for ages. Add a mature head and some genuine footy smarts and he will surprise. Whether or not he is more Nick Duigan than anything else is anyone's guess, but surely we are due for a Michael Barlow story of our own?
Rosario?
Nope here is the company: https://www.ct.com.au/
I knew multipl sincotta's over the journey (spelt phonetically based on what they called themselves).
I do work for a Chentorrino (Centorrino) at the moment.
Could it be as simple as regional dialect might impact it? Some parts of Italy might debate the most appropriate pronunciation?
The may have well used the S which was their choice, but I can tell you its pronounced Ch in Italian no ifs or buts about it. The S is Australianised, as the they boarded the Boat in Italy, it was Ch.
Nope here is the company: https://www.ct.com.au/
Cool. I went to school with a Rosario.
Mav, if you're referring to the highlights package on the CFC website, I'd say those commentators simply don't know they're mispronouncing it. Hopefully "Chincotta" himself knows the right way.
I've heard Sin-, Kin- and Chin-cotta ::)
In
Alex Cincotta,
Mitch McGovern
Out
Adam Saad (Injured),
Lachie Plowman (Omitted),
Tom De Koning (Managed)
IN
Jack Steele,
Tim Membrey
OUT
Anthony Caminiti (Suspension),
Jack Bytel (Omitted),
Marcus Windhager (Omitted)
Pity Bruce McAvaney won’t be commentating as he’d research Cincotta’s family tree back at least 1000 years and go to the source to make sure he had the right pronunciation.
TDK out....why do they say "managed"? Clearly he's been dropped....or omitted.
So, the emergencies comprise 3 talls and LOB. Arguably, Kemp could be regarded as a mid, but surely at 192cm he’s a big-bodied mid and we already have Cripps, Hewitt and Kennedy as our bullocking types. Looks like LOB might get the nod.
TDK out....why do they say "managed"? Clearly he's been dropped....or omitted.
A structure thing no doubt...it may point to tactics we'll employ, but I'm buggered if I have any idea what they might be...other than Jack rucking again. ::)
I wonder how much a young ruckman, 5 years into his career, who can't make his sides twenty-two will be worth at season's end.
TDK out....why do they say "managed"? Clearly he's been dropped....or omitted.
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! Not sure we’re adding mobility by removing TDK … if it was pittonet being removed it may be a bit different.
Remember, the Saints left Tom Campbell, the other ruckman, as an emergency. Pitto, like most rucks, would be happier as a sole ruckman.
Of course, either side can swing changes right up to the bounce of the ball.
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! Not sure we’re adding mobility by removing TDK … if it was pittonet being removed it may be a bit different.
TDK has been very poor first six weeks and needs to dig deep and find something imo.
A structure thing no doubt...it may point to tactics we'll employ, but I'm buggered if I have any idea what they might be...other than Jack rucking again. ::)
I wonder how much a young ruckman, 5 years into his career, who can't make his sides twenty-two will be worth at season's end.
He has plenty of time on his side as a young ruckman, but needs to start bridging the difference between natural talent and potential to AFL standard output.
TDK out....why do they say "managed"? Clearly he's been dropped....or omitted.
Yep...they have managed to drop him.....reckon his asking price will be dropping too.
Stkilda ruck Zane Cordy as their relief and also have been employing him down forward to create a bit of room for their smalls.
TDK has been very poor first six weeks and needs to dig deep and find something imo.
We have very few weapons and TDK is one of them. Pittonet is a modern day Mark Porter I.e. Solid VFL player.
TDK out....why do they say "managed"? Clearly he's been dropped....or omitted.
Why one ruckman? Couldn't give Mirkov a try? Pitto and SOS combo is doomed to fail.
So, the emergencies comprise 3 talls and LOB. Arguably, Kemp could be regarded as a mid, but surely at 192cm he’s a big-bodied mid and we already have Cripps, Hewitt and Kennedy as our bullocking types. Looks like LOB might get the nod.
How can Kemp be regarded as a mid when he’s played all his footy for us (VFL and AFL) as a KPP?
I’d say he’s cover for McGovern.
The only way TDK hasn't been dropped, is if he is named as the sub. Then the 'managed' thing makes sense.
Personally i hate the idea of naming any ruck as a sub as it leaves your hands tied tactics wise with the sub.
I'd be using Kemp as the sub as he is more versatile, position wise.
Stkilda ruck Zane Cordy as their relief and also have been employing him down forward to create a bit of room for their smalls.
Should that possibility cause me to mop my brow or jump up and down in ecstacy? I’m going for the latter.
Cordy is a 195/92 defender/forward according to Footywire.
Even his bio on the St Kilda site says:
After eight seasons at the Kennel as a father-son recruit, Zaine Cordy traded in the blue for some black to join St Kilda as a delisted free agent.
The Premiership Bulldog joins the Saints after 118 senior games, taking up positions at either end of the ground during his time at Whitten Oval.
Cordy’s versatility will be an important asset heading into 2023, especially in providing another tall option down back to support defenders Dougal Howard and Callum Wilkie.
Even they couldn’t muster much enthusiasm for his ability as a ruck or forward. He has kicked a grand total of 18 goals over his 123 games with a match best of 2 goals, although he has managed 4 goals in 5 games this year. He has never had double figure hit outs.
Of course, that doesn’t mean he can’t have a break out game against us. But he’s a dream opponent for JSOS who stands at 194/92. And it would be a godsend if Cordy does play forward. Then, Weets or Young would have a natural opponent who isn’t very mobile and who doesn’t have a height or weight advantage over them. They’d be free to work off him rather than being lured out of D50 as happened last week.
How can Kemp be regarded as a mid when he’s played all his footy for us (VFL and AFL) as a KPP?
I’d say he’s cover for McGovern.
Agree....
Its a losing battle DJ...Kemp will be the only well known mid on our list never to have actually played the position.😶
Had this thought McGovern might end up on Wilkie and Kemp might play down back.
Should that possibility cause me to mop my brow or jump up and down in ecstacy? I’m going for the latter.
Cordy is a 195/92 defender/forward according to Footywire.
Even his bio on the St Kilda site says:
Even they couldn’t muster much enthusiasm for his ability as a ruck or forward. He has kicked a grand total of 18 goals over his 123 games with a match best of 2 goals, although he has managed 4 goals in 5 games this year. He has never had double figure hit outs.
Of course, that doesn’t mean he can’t have a break out game against us. But he’s a dream opponent for JSOS who stands at 194/92. And it would be a godsend if Cordy does play forward. Then, Weets or Young would have a natural opponent who isn’t very mobile and who doesn’t have a height or weight advantage over them. They’d be free to work off him rather than being lured out of D50 as happened last week.
Cordy isnt being employed to be the greatest ruckman, forward etc but is your classic Ross Lyon role player who is there to be a nuisance and prevent opposition players doing their job. My guess is he might be used to play on McGovern to prevent him from intercepting and doing his rebound thing if McGovern plays down back...
Save that the defenders select their opponents rather than the forwards choosing their defenders. Sure, Cordy could try to run around with Gov but Weets could take care of Cordy (and Gov’s opponent) while Gov runs off to intercept.
Save that the defenders select their opponents rather than the forwards choosing their defenders. Sure, Cordy could try to run around with Gov but Weets could take care of Cordy (and Gov’s opponent) while Gov runs off to intercept.
Lyon said he stuffed up and backed his system last week and let Nick Daicos freewheel around the park to disastrous effect, I dont see him doing that this week with any of our key rebounders. We saw the Keays/Saad matchup last week and we lost that battle in the coaching box for the second time in a row so my confidence isnt high.
Save that the defenders select their opponents rather than the forwards choosing their defenders. Sure, Cordy could try to run around with Gov but Weets could take care of Cordy (and Gov’s opponent) while Gov runs off to intercept.
Depends on the numbers and the matchups, but it is possible for a forward to influence his matchup.
I remember a game against Richmond where Cain Ackland was playing as our deepest forward. Tigers were playing Rance as their +1. Rance would sit 10-15m in front of our deepest forward. To counteract that, Ackland would just walk up to Rance and stand next to him. Acklands direct opponent was too stupid to do anything other than stand next to Ackland. A 1-on-1 and a +1 was turned into a 2on1.
Now, if that'd happen today, once you'd stood next to Rance enough times, your opponent would transition into the +1 instead. Thus you'd be choosing your own opponent as a forward.
Same can be said for a defender that wants to stay deep, move up the ground and swap out or vice versa.
Yep, it’s possible to set a defensive forward the task of locking down a rebounder. But not surprisingly, asking a slower “ruckman” to stay with a faster guy like Gov is destined to fail.
Or maybe I’m wrong and we should get Pitto to lock down Sinclair.
Not that Keays was a true defensive forward anyway. He was probably the best opponent for Saad as Rankine and Rachele would have demanded too much close checking. But Keays managed to make himself dangerous while limiting Saad’s rebound.
Kruddler, defenders are now quite used to handovers. They might be tricky when you’re dealing with smart, athletic forwards but Zaine Cordy? Unless he’s had an incredible renaissance, he’s about as tricky as a training cone. And we have more to fear from all of their other forwards and runners. The more time he chooses to clog up the forward line, the better for us.
I cannot believe that we've 'rested' Tom de Koning. Taking in one ruckman is just not smart.
Rucking our other talls? We haven't done that yet much, it has all been left to Jack Silvagni, and not to his benefit.
Such is life.
Stocker not starting on the ground … interesting.
The beauty of Cincotta is every one of his kicks are planner and well excuted on both sides. None of this kick in hope aorund the corner crap. He reminds me alot of Heath Scotland in both running and kicking style. Heath was the best kick our football club has ever seen IMO and we have had some beauties. If Cincotta is half as good a kick he'll be ok.
If you give me 1/2hr I’ll find 2000 posts craptcanning Scotlands kicking, high loopy left footers was one constant whine I remember well, not that I agreed, but I definitely remember.
The beauty of Cincotta is every one of his kicks are planner and well excuted on both sides. None of this kick in hope aorund the corner crap. He reminds me alot of Heath Scotland in both running and kicking style. Heath was the best kick our football club has ever seen IMO and we have had some beauties. If Cincotta is half as good a kick he'll be ok.
His kicks are planned and well executed on both sides of his body....... in the twos where he has time to do that. Let's see what he can do with the extra heat in the big time!!
I cannot believe that we've 'rested' Tom de Koning. Taking in one ruckman is just not smart.
Rucking our other talls? We haven't done that yet much, it has all been left to Jack Silvagni, and not to his benefit.
Such is life.
TDK looks like he needed a rest, other than Marshall rucks are thin on the ground for The Aints, although we accept Marshall is a significant hurdle, Ross the Boss has a history of tactics using solo rucks so for me TDK looked like he needed a rest and the time is probably right.
We need a bunch of blokes to lift this week or the ruck situation won't make smidge of difference.
Unfortunately I remain unconvinced and expect this to be a tough one to win. Particularly given the skittles that keep falling. Saints and Crows have been our achilles heel for some time.
Steel nullifies Crippa. Sinclair plays AA form. Membrey and their fast crafty small forwards have danced around our defence. Big improvements in those areas and we're a chance.
Saints by 18
I think Steele and Membrey might be a bit rusty and we can grind out a win with our tall forwards leading the way.
Blues by 11 points....
Unfortunately I remain unconvinced and expect this to be a tough one to win. Particularly given the skittles that keep falling. Saints and Crows have been our achilles heel for some time.
Steel nullifies Crippa. Sinclair plays AA form. Membrey and their fast crafty small forwards have danced around our defence. Big improvements in those areas and we're a chance.
Saints by 18
Same page here, LN.
We would have to play the best game under Vossy thus far to have a chance of winning. If we start the way we finished the last game, it could be ugly. If we rebound with real heat, confidence and consistency over four qtrs we're a slim chance... but that's hard to see as we still have a few passengers obviously down on form and a disrupted continuity.
IN: Alex Cincotta (Debut), Mitch McGovern
OUT: Adam Saad (Injured), Lachie Plowman (Omitted), Tom De Koning (Managed)
What ???
Need Hewett and Kennedy to double their efforts and if they do that with Walshy having a game under his belt should be okay.
But it's Hewett and Kennedy for me as they bring other players into the game like Fisher. We need to draft more smalls by the looks of it.
I don't get fans complaining, so many who wanted to solo ruck scenario are now complaining about TDK being rested, but one event is a consequence of the other, a solo ruck is unsustainable for a full AFL season.
This isn't 1965, and rucks don't get to stroll from stoppage to stoppage while they watch general play!
Some fans might use Marshall as an example to counter that, but they are just looking at the lists and not watching the games, the Aints have a whole strategy to reduce Marshalls workload allowing him to spend as much time as possible at stoppages.
I don't get fans complaining, so many who wanted to solo ruck scenario are now complaining about TDK being rested, but one event is a consequence of the other, a solo ruck is unsustainable for a full AFL season.
This isn't 1965, and rucks don't get to stroll from stoppage to stoppage while they watch general play!
Some fans might use Marshall as an example to counter that, but they are just looking at the lists and not watching the games, the Aints have a whole strategy to reduce Marshalls workload allowing him to spend as much time as possible at stoppages.
Two rucks please, now and forever 🙏
I read on BF that Mirkov may be injured, can anyone confirm? Maybe that's why a second ruck wasn't included.
Two rucks please, now and forever 🙏
I read on BF that Mirkov may be injured, can anyone confirm? Maybe that's why a second ruck wasn't included.
Yep.
Now this is what irks moi in relation to our MC... you've got an almost 200 cm bloke, in v good form, in the Magoos and with a bit of imagination and creativity you could have had tall Durds as a 2nd ruck, replacing (this is where people hurl rotten tomatoes at me) an out of form, JSOS. The bloke has good defensive skills and takes a good grab... just a thought. Our MC is so fkn rigid in their thinking.
I'm hoping Cerra, George, and MK get plenty of decent disposals. Cerra has been ok so far, working hard and has reasonable disposal. The others have crows game together to learn (a lot) from. If the mids click and provide the right i50 option from the bounce. We may be able to scrap it out. If they don't, it'll be a long 4q.
Go Blues
Wishing Cincotta a productive and satisfying debut.
Yep.
Now this is what irks moi in relation to our MC... you've got an almost 200 cm bloke, in v good form, in the Magoos and with a bit of imagination and creativity you could have had tall Durds as a 2nd ruck, replacing (this is where people hurl rotten tomatoes at me) an out of form, JSOS. The bloke has good defensive skills and takes a good grab... just a thought. Our MC is so fkn rigid in their thinking.
Bit of lateral thinking is never the strong point of our MC. We always lose a few games every season at the selection table due to conservative repetitious deck chair shuffling.
Maybe its a decoy naming TDK as an emergency, maybe he will come in for someone.
Facebook saying Voss won't be coaching tomorrow because of personal reasons.
Facebook saying Voss won't be coaching tomorrow because of personal reasons.
Not sure how valid this is.... but suggests Vossy will be in the hot seat.
https://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/afl/voss-tipped-to-take-reins-cincotta-to-make-blues-debut-c-10412002
We have our favorite #22 umpire again.
Not sure how valid this is.... but suggests Vossy will be in the hot seat.
https://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/afl/voss-tipped-to-take-reins-cincotta-to-make-blues-debut-c-10412002
Hansen did the presser the other day as Vossy had a personal family matter to deal with,. He said Vossy would be in the box tomorrow.
Voss v Ross, SOS and Stock.
Don’t forget Cordy too!
He’s on track for 50 goals, so he’s not your average bear.
Lets see.
Looking at the VFL team playing, neither O'Brien, Durdin or Kemp out there....but Plowman is. Likely to be some late changes today before the game? Someone mentioned Acres might be an out....O'Brien probably in for him. Got my doubts on McGovern so maybe Durdin in for him and Kemp as the substitute? Tom Campbell playing VFL for Saints so likely they're only going with one ruckman....could TDK be the sub and look to come in midway through the 3rd quarter?
Not a gambling man but hate to be betting on games when you never know the final 22 with so many late changes possible.
Is Durdin allowed to be named if not in the original squad....or is that a fine?
Hawks held the Crows to just 15 points in the opening quarter for a lead of only 2 points. That’s a wee bit better than we managed last week.
He’s on track for 50 goals, so he’s not your average bear.
0.2 so far today.