All ready for after the game on Sunday.
We can't blame injuries, the Aints also had key personnel out - thank the gods or it would have been uglier.
This was no more complicated than a side that works hard for 120 minutes versus a side that works hard for about 90 minutes. Plus, they didn't have passengers. We did. Tenuous grip on the 8 now, with an appalling %.
Embarrassing skills. Hard to believe we've slipped so much in 12 months. We had the 6 leading possession getters on the ground....by a country mile....and it means nothing.
Lost count of how many times in the first 3 quarters we kicked it straight to an opponent coming out of the back 50. Yes, missing Saad and Docherty....but just unforgiveable. Saints were missing way more best 22 players than us but the ease with which they moved it from the back 50 to their forward line was laughable at time.
I need someone to tell me how Honey got a game this week after last week and after very ordinary VFL form? On the back of that today, he shouldn't be playing again any time soon.
Do we have a goalkicking coach at the club? So many easy set shots missed in the first half when we had control of the game. Harry is one of the worst set shots for goal in the competition and was embarrassing today. His work up the ground taking contested marks can't be questioned, but his job is to kick goals and to miss some of those sitters today is coach killing stuff.
Too many blokes tearing it up in the VFL for there not to be some changes next week. Ed Curnow might be just about cooked I think and Honey should go. Fisher got a bit of ball but for the most part was ineffective....another who could do with a VFL stint.
Cincotta didn't look outta place so probably holds his spot.
We are a mile off it at the moment. We could've been sitting in top spot tonight but instead served that crap up.
Credit to Ross Lyon though. He's got the same list as Ratten, minus a heap of injuries...and they look like a top 8 team already. The same can't be said for us.
2 goals to 6 after half time. Pfft.
Embarrassing skills. Hard to believe we've slipped so much in 12 months. We had the 6 leading possession getters on the ground....by a country mile....and it means nothing.
Lost count of how many times in the first 3 quarters we kicked it straight to an opponent coming out of the back 50. Yes, missing Saad and Docherty....but just unforgiveable. Saints were missing way more best 22 players than us but the ease with which they moved it from the back 50 to their forward line was laughable at time.
I need someone to tell me how Honey got a game this week after last week and after very ordinary VFL form? On the back of that today, he shouldn't be playing again any time soon.
Do we have a goalkicking coach at the club? So many easy set shots missed in the first half when we had control of the game. Harry is one of the worst set shots for goal in the competition and was embarrassing today. His work up the ground taking contested marks can't be questioned, but his job is to kick goals and to miss some of those sitters today is coach killing stuff.
Too many blokes tearing it up in the VFL for there not to be some changes next week. Ed Curnow might be just about cooked I think and Honey should go. Fisher got a bit of ball but for the most part was ineffective....another who could do with a VFL stint.
Cincotta didn't look outta place so probably holds his spot.
We are a mile off it at the moment. We could've been sitting in top spot tonight but instead served that crap up.
Credit to Ross Lyon though. He's got the same list as Ratten, minus a heap of injuries...and they look like a top 8 team already. The same can't be said for us.
Cincotta was good and his skills stood out...he was the one positive from this game which was played with decent pressure and thats bodes well for Cincotta going forward.
If not for the draw, we'd be sitting about 11th... some would say that's where we deserve to be.
We don’t have much in reserve. TdK missing the VFL match makes you wonder what’s up with him. Dow continues to rack up possessions but his card might be marked. Jordan Boyd probably needs a few more games in the VFL to regain match and general fitness. Jack Carroll got a lot of it but I don’t think he was particularly impressive. Fingers crossed Saad can return. Thank God we only have to play the Eagles.
Why can’t Durdin and Motlop be our Butler and Higgins?
We don’t have much in reserve. TdK missing the VFL match makes you wonder what’s up with him. Dow continues to rack up possessions but his card might be marked. Jordan Boyd probably needs a few more games in the VFL to regain match and general fitness. Jack Carroll got a lot of it but I don’t think he was particularly impressive. Fingers crossed Saad can return. Thank God we only have to play the Eagles.
The Eagles are hopeless, we shouldnt need any reserves........it should be a percentage booster.
- can't do it for long enough
- struggle exiting d50 effectively
- struggle effectively entering i50
- can't find the goals
- don't do the small team things often enough
Plenty to work on. We haven't looked like a serious competitor to date. Aside a couple of cameos.
Left scratching my head. Can't imagine what explanation we'll have for this waste of space
Why can’t Durdin and Motlop be our Butler and Higgins?
Because they dont work hard enough and need dropping, Id play Fogarty and Binns next week along with Dow who cant be any less ineffective than Fisher who picks up useless possessions that go sideways and dont impact.
10 out of the top 12 possession getters on the ground were Carlton.
Fix it Vossy.
The Eagles are hopeless, we shouldnt need any reserves........it should be a percentage booster.
That's what some thought about North and the crows. We're vulnerable to any side that comes with 4q commitment.
Why can’t Durdin and Motlop be our Butler and Higgins?
They may or may not get there, but our boys are babies compared to the St Kilda pair.
What was E Curnow's role today?? If he didn't have a shut down role he shouldn't be there!
Beside the fact we’re losing, it is just not enjoyable watching this team play.
Lacklustre/lazy, frustrating, wasteful. Terrible.
Last year we were contested bulls, dominating from stoppages. This we rank 17th for clearances. Work rate has dropped right off. Don't want it badly enough. Played one good game for the year, round 2 against Geelong.
Beside the fact we’re losing, it is just not enjoyable watching this team play.
Lacklustre/lazy, frustrating, wasteful. Terrible.
Frustrating was Harry in the 3rd quarter trying to convert and then watching that rain maker kick that got swept away down forward...does all the hard work taking marks then just doesnt concentrate at the critical times and that proved a momentum shifter.
Frustrating was Harry in the 3rd quarter trying to convert and then watching that rain maker kick that got swept away down forward...does all the hard work taking marks then just doesnt concentrate at the critical times and that proved a momentum shifter.
Harry the Heartbreaker >:(
Obviously kicking straight can help, but there is not much more you can expect from the marking forwards, they were OK today just didn't finish it off.
However, the small forwards, they were MIA, nobody is going to out mark our forwards regularly this season, but it's obvious they are not going to mark everything every week, how we don't have blokes in front at the fall of the ball is a mystery.
Obviously kicking straight can help, but there is not much more you can expect from the marking forwards, they were OK today just didn't finish it off.
However, the small forwards, they were MIA, nobody is going to out mark our forwards regularly this season, but it's obvious they are not going to mark everything every week, how we don't have blokes in front at the fall of the ball is a mystery.
Yes I agree. I'm not sure if it's youth, coaching or what, but it's either the Harry and Charlie show, or it's nothing. It's probably the weakest link IMO.
We are frauds .........
Nothing more, nothing less !!!
Alex Cincotta didn’t look out of place. I think he’ll prove to be a handy player
We haven't been running games out and don't look fit.
Not sure whats happening at the club but Hollands looks fitter than 80% of the team and he's been at the club for 5 mins.
How are these blokes not getting fitter and stringer over time?
Don't dare ask questions of the S&C department, you'll be excommunicated.
Complryely outcoached by Ross the Boss.
Agree.
Frankly we were crap today.
We swapped Cerra for a chance to snag Rachele.... exactly the player we need right now. Cerra has been ok, and thats the problem. OK isn't good enough
A few of our stars got big numbers but StKilda play a team first brand of football.
We swapped Cerra for a chance to snag Rachele.... exactly the player we need right now. Cerra has been ok, and thats the problem. OK isn't good enough
Thought Cerra was our best today.
Time to ask questions of Voss. The honeymoon is over, I wonder if divorce papers are being drafted
Looked like world beaters last year!
Now... look like Ninthmond.
Happy with mediocrity.
As crazy as it sounds that was our best performance and worst loss for the past three years.
Saints should have been buried - they were completely and utterly outplayed.
What went wrong from my view - ground ball players in defence were a problem, small forwards needs a complete overhaul as they were yet again impotent. They are hard workers but lack craft - they usually roam around doing their own thing and when the ball enters inside 50 they are no where near the contest. I mean, no where near. Defence can cut some slack as Doc, Saad and Zac are big losses but small forwards needs an overhaul.
Gone backwards
Last year we were the most exciting side in the competition to watch. What has happened? Seen it once this year.
The weakness of our best players get exploited by the good teams.
Obviously kicking straight can help, but there is not much more you can expect from the marking forwards, they were OK today just didn't finish it off.
Nope I can’t accept our tall forwards are ok if they get the ball but don’t finish off. It’s BS. Harry has gone backwards. He’s paid to kick goals and for a bloke who won the Coleman medal 18months ago to look so nervous so unsettled with no solid goal kicking routine when doing the most important role in the game it sums us up as a footy club. Even when one of our players finally develop we have a habit of them not pushing on and tracking upwards but going the other way!
Our coaching has always been suspect but our lack of technique going into the 50 and our general connection or cohesion from our ball movers to the forwards is laughable. It’s actually embarrassing at times.
We botch it up and miss straight forward targets when we have time and then return to the long bomb usually to an outnumber when we are pressured.
When your list consists of last years Brownlow medallist the last 2 years Coleman medalists, 6 AAs, one of the best full backs in the comp you should be in the top half of the comp yet it all falls down with no solid game plan and no forward 50 nous. 8 years into a rebuild you would think by now that box would have been ticked.
No faith we will do any better than last year.
Firstly, I gave up watching after SOS's horrid miss, couldn't watch anymore and dont think I can be able watch for a while, I'm broken.
I have come to the realisation we haven't improved enough to make the 8 let alone be a contender, how can we have possibly improved when we still play guys don't have the basic Skills. Not naming names, you all know who they are.
Too much left to too few, too many passengers week in week out.
I thought we were meant to have dodged a bullet with Ross Lyon?
Nighty night.
We haven't been running games out and don't look fit.
Not sure whats happening at the club but Hollands looks fitter than 80% of the team and he's been at the club for 5 mins.
How are these blokes not getting fitter and stringer over time?
We are fit, we just dont go hard enough at the critical times and have too many players looking for the cheap easy kick.
Time to ask questions of Voss. The honeymoon is over, I wonder if divorce papers are being drafted
When we dont make the 8 this year, the jungle drums will beat loud and strong. We Are Carlton.
Time to ask questions of Voss. The honeymoon is over, I wonder if divorce papers are being drafted
Yep...what were the tactics?...at half back just switch to the other side then come back again while Stkilda got all their players back especially Marshall their only tall. Why were we in slow motion vs a Ross Lyon team who everyone knows how they play.
Charlie and Harry have to take the miracle pack mark every time for us to kick a goal down forward because we had no method...
Nope I can’t accept our tall forwards are ok if they get the ball but don’t finish off. It’s BS. Harry has gone backwards. He’s paid to kick goals and for a bloke who won the Coleman medal 18months ago to look so nervous so unsettled with no solid goal kicking routine when doing the most important role in the game it sums us up as a footy club. Even when one of our players finally develop we have a habit of them not pushing on and tracking upwards but going the other way!
Our coaching has always been suspect but our lack of technique going into the 50 and our general connection or cohesion from our ball movers to the forwards is laughable. It’s actually embarrassing at times.
We botch it up and miss straight forward targets when we have time and then return to the long bomb usually to an outnumber when we are pressured.
When your list consists of last years Brownlow medallist the last 2 years Coleman medalists, 6 AAs, one of the best full backs in the comp you should be in the top half of the comp yet it all falls down with no solid game plan and no forward 50 nous. 8 years into a rebuild you would think by now that box would have been ticked.
No faith we will do any better than last year.
Harry simply can't kick a straight drop punt to save himself, he compensates for that by doing that around the corner kick. Thats fine when we is on the right side of the ground. When he is on the left pocket side, he is virtually useless. So we where does he lead? The left pocket. His in game foot smarts in non existent more often than not. He is a strong contested mark, he snaps around the corner very well (on the right side), we he plays on from outside 50, he is embarrassing to watch.
Charlie and Harry are not working well together, by that I mean in sync.
Talls and midfield had a good game. Ground ball players forward line and defence - couldnt put on score board pressure.
I know alot of blame is going to be put on players that missed shots on goal. But at least they are getting in positions to impact the scoreboard - its the players that are not getting in positions at all is the problem
We effectively has three Honeys in the forward line today - need 3-5 goals out of this group every game not 1-2
Nope I can’t accept our tall forwards are ok if they get the ball but don’t finish off. It’s BS. Harry has gone backwards. He’s paid to kick goals and for a bloke who won the Coleman medal 18months ago to look so nervous so unsettled with no solid goal kicking routine when doing the most important role in the game it sums us up as a footy club. Even when one of our players finally develop we have a habit of them not pushing on and tracking upwards but going the other way!
Our coaching has always been suspect but our lack of technique going into the 50 and our general connection or cohesion from our ball movers to the forwards is laughable. It’s actually embarrassing at times.
We botch it up and miss straight forward targets when we have time and then return to the long bomb usually to an outnumber when we are pressured.
When your list consists of last years Brownlow medallist the last 2 years Coleman medalists, 6 AAs, one of the best full backs in the comp you should be in the top half of the comp yet it all falls down with no solid game plan and no forward 50 nous. 8 years into a rebuild you would think by now that box would have been ticked.
No faith we will do any better than last year.
Sad but true that 😔
We also haven't had a run with our best 22 for years now. Yet other teams repeatedly have healthy lists. Whilst many other issues need addressing, none will pay dividends without a healthy list. Continuously robbing Peter to pay Paul doesn't work.
We switched the ball on 2 occasions when we had even numbers then switched back to the same side and kicked long to worse congestion than was there before.
We just have a lot of stupid players who don't know what to do.
Need to try Dow and Fogarty in the forward line - these three amigos not very good.
Talls and midfield had a good game. Ground ball players forward line and defence - couldnt put on score board pressure.
I know alot of blame is going to be put on players that missed shots on goal. But at least they are getting in positions to impact the scoreboard - its the players that are not getting in positions at all is the problem
Our midfield didn't have a good game.
Our midfield didn't have a good game.
I thought they were terrific today. At their butal best.
Sad but true that 😔
We also haven't had a run with our best 22 for years now. Yet other teams repeatedly have healthy lists. Whilst many other issues need addressing, none will pay dividends without a healthy list. Continuously robbing Peter to pay Paul doesn't work.
Agree but we turn to a turd real fast when we lose key soldiers. Other teams like Essendon Saints pies etc seem to alter things they change their gameplan and even with players out those teams are still hard to beat.
We rely on individual brilliance with key players having massive games and that getting us over the line rather than an even spread who play smart to a style that gets the job done.
We have no system and no brand despite having a very strong list imo.
When was the last strong win without big games from our stars?
We won every stat convincingly except
I50s (-4)
Stoppage Clearnances (-4)
Tackles I50 (-2)
Disposals +86
Marks +39
Contested Marks +6
Contested Possession +20
Frees +6
HOs +6
Centre Clearances +4
And yet we lose by 4 goals. Two goals in an entire half of footy with a forward line consisting of the last two Coleman Medalists is an abomination.
I thought they were terrific today. At their butal best.
Pinot, they had lots of possessions but they were ineffective or inefficient.
We won every stat convincingly except
I50s (-4)
Stoppage Clearnances (-4)
Tackles I50 (-2)
Disposals +86
Marks +39
Contested Marks +6
Contested Possession +20
Frees +6
HOs +6
Centre Clearances +4
And yet we lose by 4 goals. Two goals in an entire half of footy with a forward line consisting of the last two Coleman Medalists is an abomination.
We got plenty of ball, just used it poorly. And I thought we got the rub of the green with a few soft frees. Just seem disconnected, unsure and scrubby at the moment.
Pinot, they had lots of possessions but they were ineffective or inefficient.
Disagree - they were 77% efficient. Thats very high. They beat up their opponent on the inside and outside.
They did their job.
We switched the ball on 2 occasions when we had even numbers then switched back to the same side and kicked long to worse congestion than was there before.
We just have a lot of stupid players who don't know what to do.
Disagree - they were 77% efficient. Thats very high. They beat up their opponent on the inside and outside.
They did their job.
lol
Small forwards are no good I'm afraid and need to try some other players.
Disagree - they were 77% efficient. Thats very high. They beat up their opponent on the inside and outside.
They did their job.
No they didn’t. Which one of them pushed forward and slotted a goal at a crucial time?
We lose to these “St Kildas” every year because some unheralded up and comer with a bad haircut has a breakout game and kicks 3 or 4 goals which ultimately proves the difference.
The switch plan is supposed to happen quickly. They were Constantly slowing it down - why?
The bomb into f50 is so consistently used that it doesn’t work. And we had no one at the fall. It was an extremely frustrating game to watch.
Read again what someone said earlier - this team consists of;
Reigning Brownlow medallist
Reigning Coleman medallist
Previous year Coleman medallist
Absolutely crapful display of coaching out there and skills from the boys also crapful.
We switched the ball on 2 occasions when we had even numbers then switched back to the same side and kicked long to worse congestion than was there before.
We just have a lot of stupid players who don't know what to do.
Yep been saying it for years. We have the dumbest collection of footballers in the game.
No they didn’t. Which one of them pushed forward and slotted a goal at a crucial time?
We lose to these “St Kildas” every year because some unheralded up and comer with a bad haircut has a breakout game and kicks 3 or 4 goals which ultimately proves the difference.
We will agree to disagree because in my view neither the midfield nor talls lost us the match its the quality of craft of small forwards. Cant win with 15 players on the field and these three amigos have had enough chances.
Same old rubbish, hasn't changed in a generation. Nobody runs, nobody cares, can't kick to team mates, can't kick goals from in front, don't have any passion, don't have any thrills, nobody wants to kick goals, nobody has a red hot go, nobody takes on the game, nobody takes responsibility nobody cares so why should we. There was a story today about the breakdown in relations between SOS and Carlton. I don't care who is right or wrong but the self indulgence is mind blowing. It is typical of the culture that is at the Club. Individual first, team second or maybe third.
There is no game plan if you can't kick it to your team mates. Jack, Harry, Charlie and Cripps all missed goals they could have or could have kicked. Small forwards had chances to kick goals but turned back to hand the ball off, Players get the ball free in the middle of the ground and either have no one to kick it to, hold the ball up, go sideways or kick nowhere to no one.
Thank God Sayer's sacked the Coach and sacked the CEO otherwise we might be in trouble. This season has all the hallmarks of 2012.
When you fall 4 goals short, shanking 4 set shots inside 50 and only kick 2 second half goals from plenty of chances, then to me, you can blame whatever you want, but converting cost us dearly because above the shoulders is important.
When you fall 4 goals short, shanking 4 set shots inside 50 and only kick 2 second half goals from plenty of chances, then to me, you can blame whatever you want, but converting cost us dearly because above the shoulders is important.
Yes, I agree. Scoreboard pressure always helps. Charlie 3.3, Jack 2.3, Harry 1.2, Cripps 2 behinds etc. Cripps' kicking was really improving over the last couple of years. Seems to have gone backwards a little.
Yes, I agree. Scoreboard pressure always helps. Charlie 3.3, Jack 2.3, Harry 1.2, Cripps 2 behinds etc. Cripps' kicking was really improving over the last couple of years. Seems to have gone backwards a little.
Cripps goal less for the season so far. He had 10 by rnd 6 last year.
Cripps goal less for the season so far. He had 10 by rnd 6 last year.
Yep, he's off with his kicking, no doubt about that.
Stkilda had problems converting too, Membrey missed a few easy ones by his standards early and given the amount of ball we had we never generated enough shots on goal and it was our method more than bad goalkicking that let us down.
Imagine if Tom Papley had managed to move to Carlton a few years back. Oh, what might have been …
Making the eight is a pipedream, we blew it last year. Brownlow medallist, a host of blokes in AA form and they FORKED IT UP. Panicked when some smarts was required...and everyone thought we would just roll in the next year and make the eight. What an effing joke of a "professional" sporting club.
I had reservations about Voss being appointed and I'm yet to be impressed. Ticked off a club legend in the process and burned many bridges.
Funny how that bogus "review" tipped out a coach, yet the majority of the list survived and there were relatively few other changes about the club. And real changes are required, ot shuffling the deck chairs.
Roll into '23 and have blokes looking disinterested, half fit or playing like their tiktok accounts matter more to them than the jumper. If we were serious we'd drop at least four of these passengers but our MC lack the stones, and have done so for years.
Our problems run deep. Real deep.
Stkilda had problems converting too, Membrey missed a few easy ones by his standards early and given the amount of ball we had we never generated enough shots on goal and it was our method more than bad goalkicking that let us down.
thats fair EB1, but the complexities surrounding missing your chances might reverse the scoreline, and that's the important part.
We will agree to disagree because in my view neither the midfield nor talls lost us the match its the quality of craft of small forwards. Cant win with 15 players on the field and these three amigos have had enough chances.
I definitely agree our small forwards don’t seem to have any sense of positioning, or ability to read the flight of the ball, or even that sense of urgency to pounce or apply pressure.
thats fair EB1, but the complexities surrounding missing your chances might reverse the scoreline, and that's the important part.
Thry..I agree that missed chances change momentum. Harrys misses and Butlers multiple goals changed the game for the worse and broke the game open.
Just watched the Voss presser. Said Tom De Koning was ill earlier in the week and couldn't train.
There is zero flair in this team.
Over coached?
I get Doch and Saad missing throws out the team but our game plan should still be doable no matter the personnel.
Let’s not forget we were holding on because Cripps was turning it on. Where t f is the rest of the team
Standing up?
Lots of 4-5 players standing around waiting for the ball to come out, mostly being intercepted by St kilda and run away with.
Just watched the Voss presser. Said Tom De Koning was ill earlier in the week and couldn't train.
Wouldnt have a made a difference if he'd played.
Dow for Fisher
Fogarty for Honey
And Kemp for Ed Curnow I'd say Prof.....probably not like for like as such but I could see Kemp doing a run-with role as well over here on the bigger ground next week.
If TDK is better, does he come in....if so, who for? West Coast really only have one recognised ruckman at the moment.
Motlop and Durdin need to be dropped as well. They are not to a standard - not to say they never will be but at this moment no where near it.
In Dow, Fogarty, Carrol.. what we got to lose these three amigos not getting the job done.
Dow for Fisher
Fogarty for Honey
I like it.
We'll get some defensive pressure from Fogarty. He was solid in the 2's. Was that his 1st game back from injury?
What was Eds roles today?
No one bounced the ball today. Not one player in perfect conditions indoors.
WC at home gets trickier managing travel without match fitness or carrying niggles.
Saad, Boyd, Cottrell, McG, and possibly Fog, Martin, Ed, and Blacres probably fall into that category.
I don't think all is lost but we do need to find some form pronto. Too many players are down. If a few lift, things can turn. At least that's my gut feel at this point.
Dow for Fisher
Fogarty for Honey
Not gonna happen. Fisher is undroppable it seems, Dow is finished as a Carlton seniors player.
Thought Fisher was good today. One of the few who tried to take the game on.
Not gonna happen. Fisher is undroppable it seems, Dow is finished as a Carlton seniors player.
Unfortunately, true. Fisher is Crippa's mate and is always up front in the coach's addresses at the breaks - teacher's pet.
Thought Fisher was good today. One of the few who tried to take the game on.
Cant agree on this one, thought his possessions didnt impact much and I think he needs a holiday in the twos to find out where his best position is so he can influence the game more.
Id have Dow in for him this week and give him a series of games win lose or draw, at the end of the season we need to have a good look at a few players futures and Fisher is one I have a question mark over.
No one bounced the ball today. Not one player in perfect conditions indoors.
there wasn't much time or space for running bounces
Thought Fisher was good today. One of the few who tried to take the game on.
You have an extraordinary sense of humour. Watch him closely, meanders about between contests and has that ability to accumulate ineffective and inefficient possessions/disposals. As one of the small forwards, how many goal assists did he achieve? How many goals did he kick? Looks flashy, gets possessions, achieves little.
Cant agree on this one, thought his possessions didnt impact much and I think he needs a holiday in the twos to find out where his best position is so he can influence the game more.
Id have Dow in for him this week and give him a series of games win lose or draw, at the end of the season we need to have a good look at a few players futures and Fisher is one I have a question mark over.
We just got exposed for pace again, we can't drop any of our quicker players.
Everyone here is blaming our bottom players but it's our best players who are being outplayed. Yeah they win the stats battle but they fail to move the ball efficiently.
You have an extraordinary sense of humour. Watch him closely, meanders about between contests and has that ability to accumulate ineffective and inefficient possessions/disposals. As one of the small forwards, how many goal assists did he achieve? How many goals did he kick? Looks flashy, gets possessions, achieves little.
Bit like Cripps and Walsh today.
We just got exposed for pace again, we can't drop any of our quicker players.
Everyone here is blaming our bottom players but it's our best players who are being outplayed. Yeah they win the stats battle but they fail to move the ball efficiently.
I agree with what you say about moving the ball efficiently but I dont see Fisher as that quick link player...I thought Cerra did that best for our players today and for Stkilda Lyon moved Sinclair into that role in the second half and he impacted on their ball movement as did Brad Hill who didnt get as many possessions as some but I thought he was very effective and I didnt see Fisher in the same light as any of those players I mentioned.
We just got exposed for pace again, we can't drop any of our quicker players.
Everyone here is blaming our bottom players but it's our best players who are being outplayed. Yeah they win the stats battle but they fail to move the ball efficiently.
I dont think pace is the problem, when I strip it all back, the biggest problem is extremely poor disposal. Whether is its:
- General field kicking
- Kicks I50
- Goal kicking
I watch a lot of footy every week, I reckon we are one of the worst in comp for both deciding what to do with it and executing the disposal.
There's no doubt we need other routes to goal. That needs to be built on a robust system. I recall a game in 22 where our wingers kicked 5 goals.
This year, our goalkicking has been poor. Goalless Crippa is a reflection of an underlying inadequacy.
Get Rocca back 😉
...............................
I watch a lot of footy every week, I reckon we are one of the worst in comp for both deciding what to do with it and executing the disposal.
Interesting listening to the Voss presser, there was general agreement in the coaches' box that the "deciding what to do with it" was sound. The coaches were of the opinion that the choice a player was making among the options available was OK. But the latter part of what you write (executing the disposal) was the main issue.
It all happens because we move the ball too slow because ultimately we are slow.
Obviously missing Saad doesn't help.
O'Brien Cottrell and Owies cover a lot of ground and we're regulars last year. LP has been banging on about this for weeks and I agree with him.
Saints are well coached. We knew that.
You need to move the ball fast, long and accurate to beat them. We didn't have Docherty and Saad today who are our best at that by a country mile. I'd like to come up against the saints later in the year with those 2 playing and see the difference. They were able to flood back chop off the space and force us to play the possession game. As soon as we stuffed one up, they swooped and scored.
That was the difference.
We had a shocker in front of goal. Easily 5 shots missed we'd kick most weeks. I think it was acres who chose not to toe poke one through from the goal square, instead letting it dribble past him....and the goals...in for a point.
But, its not all doom and gloom. We played poor, against the top side, and absolutely dominated them in the first half in every area except the scoreboard. Gives us something to work from, and we'll get better as a result.
I'd rather find out this now, than come finals time.
Not sure what others got excited by with Cincotta. First game, no dramas with him getting a game (i picked him as an IN) but i think he has a long way to go at AFL level. Made a few dumb decisions, got caught a few times including getting absolutely dumped in the middle, and showed he is not up to AFL level yet........which i don't expect him to be.
However, plenty saying they thought he was great.....i didn't see that. I saw a player playing his first game, and it showed. Plenty of room for improvement. For comparison, look at Hollands and Cowan. They put on a clinic in their first game by comparison.
Pick the lad again next week by all means....but lets not get too excited.
Toss says once Steele got the better of Crippa, and they spread, the rest followed.
Don't like the guy, but I can't argue with that. Smart coaching, and he's achieving it with blokes he's known for 5 minutes 🙄
Embarrassing skills. Hard to believe we've slipped so much in 12 months. We had the 6 leading possession getters on the ground....by a country mile....and it means nothing.
Not quite nothing. In the first half we dominated in the centre and should have been 5 or 6 goals up. We were the better team and, for the first time all year, our midfield worked the way it is supposed to. But they couldn't miss, and we missed far too often.
After half time, the 'Aints got the centre back to parity, while we were thrashed on the ground in defence. Our defenders weren't that bad, except that we got hurt playing Kennedy in defence. He isn't a defender, not matter what else he might be.
Lost count of how many times in the first 3 quarters we kicked it straight to an opponent coming out of the back 50. Yes, missing Saad and Docherty....but just unforgiveable. Saints were missing way more best 22 players than us but the ease with which they moved it from the back 50 to their forward line was laughable at time.
Our disposal into the forward line was appalling. The number of time we kicked directly to St. Kilda defenders ... I lost track of how many times it happened.
And then Jack misses from close range. St Kilda kicks the next 4 goals and we're toast.
Our disposal is not good enough to play the possession game: we need to take the game on. When we do, we're almost unbeatable. But we don't take the oppositions' best players out, which we need to. We don't get the game played on our terms, and that hurts us.
I need someone to tell me how Honey got a game this week after last week and after very ordinary VFL form? On the back of that today, he shouldn't be playing again any time soon.
Honey has to be dropped. I think he will be gone at the end of the season: he hasn't made any significant progress at all.
I was surprised when he got called up, but his form today was ... not satisfactory.
O'Brien has to go back: he hasn't offered much as sub. He plays wing or he plays VFL, my preferred option.
Our other small forwards are not offering much either, although Corey Durdin wasn't as negative as the other were.
Jesse Motlop needs to go back for a couple of weeks and find some form: he is just not handling the ball well at the moment. He needs to work on his fitness, and strength. he can't out-body me and I've only got one functional knee.
Do we have a goalkicking coach at the club? So many easy set shots missed in the first half when we had control of the game. Harry is one of the worst set shots for goal in the competition and was embarrassing today. His work up the ground taking contested marks can't be questioned, but his job is to kick goals and to miss some of those sitters today is coach killing stuff.
We badly need to get into H. he had 14 marks: that is enough to win the game by himself. But his scoring shots? He should have had 4 or 5 goals. He managed 1. 1
[color-blue]4 marks[/color]!!!!!
Too many blokes tearing it up in the VFL for there not to be some changes next week. Ed Curnow might be just about cooked I think and Honey should go. Fisher got a bit of ball but for the most part was ineffective....another who could do with a VFL stint.
Not sure was was going on with Ed today. We really need a tagger, and had a job or three for Ed, but he got 5 possessions! I'd have played him on Sinclair, and cut the bu*ger out of play entirely.
Cincotta didn't look outta place so probably holds his spot.
Absolutely worth his place. Might be time for Cowan to go back for a couple of weeks. He isn't going badly, but he isn't getting a lot of ball.
We are a mile off it at the moment. We could've been sitting in top spot tonight but instead served that crap up.
We've gone backwards, to be honest. Other teams have attacked our strengths, while we haven't found any new ones. We don't take the play on, something that Collingwood does, to its massive benefit.
Pittonet was excellent today: he beat a guy that some people are claiming to be All-Australian. He gave our mids first use for the 1st half and then held his own thereafter. He was a big winner on the day.
Our mids were excellent, but our disposal into the forward line was simply not good enough.
Credit to Ross Lyon though. He's got the same list as Ratten, minus a heap of injuries...and they look like a top 8 team already. The same can't be said for us.
He's got them taking the game on, he has them playing to their strengths, instead of the their weaknesses. He will be found out, by better teams than us, ones that can actually use the football.
Not sure what others got excited by with Cincotta. First game, no dramas with him getting a game (i picked him as an IN) but i think he has a long way to go at AFL level. Made a few dumb decisions, got caught a few times including getting absolutely dumped in the middle, and showed he is not up to AFL level yet........which i don't expect him to be.
However, plenty saying they thought he was great.....i didn't see that. I saw a player playing his first game, and it showed. Plenty of room for improvement. For comparison, look at Hollands and Cowan. They put on a clinic in their first game by comparison.
Pick the lad again next week by all means....but lets not get too excited.
Thought his skills were ok, he kicks both feet unlike the rest of the team and for the most part was composed.
He wont get a tougher test than the Saints playing the old Freo footy and having his more experienced teammates making dumb decisions because they cant move the ball forward. He was playing on some of the best small forwards in the game and it would have been a real step up in class and a new experience for him and I thought he went ok and deserves a game vs West Coast who dont have that same quality personnel.
Thought his skills were ok, he kicks both feet unlike the rest of the team and for the most part was composed.
He wont get a tougher test than the Saints playing the old Freo footy and his more experienced teammates making dumb decisions because they cant move the ball forward. playing on some of the best small forwards in the game would have bene a real step up in class and a new experience for him and I thought he went ok and deserves a game vs West Coast who dont have that same quality personnel.
Skills are ok, but we knew that. No good having good skills under no pressure though. You need them in the heat of the battle....and he is not there yet.
As i said, i'd pick him next week, against the Eagles is perfect. He is struggles with the pressure there, send him back to the 2's to remind him of how good he can be once he gets the tempo. Don't burn him out too soon.
Toss says once Steele got the better of Crippa, and they spread, the rest followed.
Don't like the guy, but I can't argue with that. Smart coaching, and he's achieving it with blokes he's known for 5 minutes 🙄
I don't think Steele ever got the better of Cripps, but he did negate some of his influence after half time. If Cripps could kick a goal, he'd have been BOG. But the 'Aints did manage to disrupt our midfield, and that hurt us badly.
Thought Cerra was our best today.
Cerra was good, and his disposal was better than most.
Yes, we need a Rachele, but I'm not disappointed with Cerra.
At the moment Kennedy and Fisher are down, Fisher was great early, but disappeared from the game like he was shot.
Hewett got more of it this week, but he isn't back to his best.
Firstly, I gave up watching after SOS's horrid miss, couldn't watch anymore and dont think I can be able watch for a while, I'm broken.
I have come to the realisation we haven't improved enough to make the 8 let alone be a contender, how can we have possibly improved when we still play guys don't have the basic Skills. Not naming names, you all know who they are.
Too much left to too few, too many passengers week in week out.
I thought we were meant to have dodged a bullet with Ross Lyon?
Nighty night.
Not sure Ross is a long term option for anywhere. But he always makes a big start.
Interesting to see how he goes in 2 years.
As for us, we were new and interesting last year. This year we're not as good with what is supposed to be our strength, while we haven't found any new strengths. That does not bode well. Voss at Brisbane? I hope not. But we need to make some changes, on the field and how we play.
Yep been saying it for years. We have the dumbest collection of footballers in the game.
It would be difficult to argue against that. We make so many poor decisions and don't seem to learn from the ones we make.
Saints are well coached. We knew that.
You need to move the ball fast, long and accurate to beat them. We didn't have Docherty and Saad today who are our best at that by a country mile. I'd like to come up against the saints later in the year with those 2 playing and see the difference. They were able to flood back chop off the space and force us to play the possession game. As soon as we stuffed one up, they swooped and scored.
That was the difference.
We had a shocker in front of goal. Easily 5 shots missed we'd kick most weeks. I think it was acres who chose not to toe poke one through from the goal square, instead letting it dribble past him....and the goals...in for a point.
But, its not all doom and gloom. We played poor, against the top side, and absolutely dominated them in the first half in every area except the scoreboard. Gives us something to work from, and we'll get better as a result.
I'd rather find out this now, than come finals time.
I'm going to agree with Kruddler.
It's early days but our seasons probably at a bit of a fork in the road.
How we handle the weeks leading up to the bye rounds will tell a bit of a tale about our coaches and their ability to rectify the issues holding us back at the moment.
We've come up against the form team of the competition after 6 rounds.
We've been all over them in a lot of the general play in the first half of the game.
Individuals are showing some good signs,
Some of the newer players on the list are especially promising and look to be set for long careers.
We go off a bit about McKay and his costly brain fades but he's been strong in the air and presenting well up around the wing area as well as in the forward half.
The midfield is getting a lot of the ball.
Walsh has had his two weeks 'easing' ;) into the season and is now back to normal
But there is still lots of room for improvement.
There is a group on the fringe who are probably looking at their last season as Carlton players.
We are falling down in both execution and decision making.
You would expect those things to improve as the season progresses, and if we have a bit of fortune with injuries we may do a reverse 2022 and come home much stronger in the second half of the year.
I was much happier with the effort this week than I was with the effort last week.
A word of caution though.
Outclassed and outscored, West Coast came with a pretty good effort against Port.
They had one bad quarter where things fell to pieces but it was fairly even apart from that.
Next week back at home for them will be a challenge for us.
It may actually be an opportunity to get a bit of confidence and system back, but take if for granted and it could also have the opposite effect.
We have to accept that unless we change some of the things we are doing, we are probably 6-7th at best, and certainly not ready for the really pointy end of the season.
Here's a few leftish-field ideas to try and get our side on an upward trajectory.
(1) For a side that boasts the last two Coleman medallists, our scoring this year has been abysmal. Put Kemp as a mobile marking option in the F50 - they tried it for a while a couple of years back, and he did not look out of place. Alterrnatively, play Cripps more in F50 as that mobile target.
(2) Given # 1, play Harry as a true centre half forward, getting marks on the wing etc. That is where he has looked the most effective this year.
(3) Binns in. Maybe even give Dow a go. We are so slow, I would give anyone with leg speed a crack.
(4) Give Cincotta, Saad and McGovern (perhaps even Boyd) absolute license to run off half-back, with defense as a secondary consideration (especially when Doc is back).
(5) Get TDK and Mirkov in tandem off the bench. Pittonet is just too slow.
There's a start.
We have to accept that unless we change some of the things we are doing, we are probably 6-7th at best, and certainly not ready for the really pointy end of the season.
Here's a few leftish-field ideas to try and get our side on an upward trajectory.
(1) For a side that boasts the last two Coleman medallists, our scoring this year has been abysmal. Put Kemp as a mobile marking option in the F50 - they tried it for a while a couple of years back, and he did not look out of place. Alterrnatively, play Cripps more in F50 as that mobile target.
(2) Given # 1, play Harry as a true centre half forward, getting marks on the wing etc. That is where he has looked the most effective this year.
(3) Binns in. Maybe even give Dow a go. We are so slow, I would give anyone with leg speed a crack.
(4) Give Cincotta, Saad and McGovern (perhaps even Boyd) absolute license to run off half-back, with defense as a secondary consideration (especially when Doc is back).
(5) Get TDK and Mirkov in tandem off the bench. Pittonet is just too slow.
There's a start.
agree with what you have written except H at CHF, he isnt footy smart enough to play the CHF role. He can get up the ground and clunk a mark, thats when the trouble begins.
So here we are into what, our eighth year of a rebuild?
We all knew from being flogged by teams such as Hawthorn, year after year - but evidently not our recruiting team - that we needed to recruit players with excellent disposal skills, especially by foot.
What did we get? Maybe we can excuse our recruiting team to a certain extent because nobody wanted to come to Carlton, but they were quite happy to take on Williams with a known Achilles problem. Then we have Kemp, and we were told that it would be worth the wait of a year for him to recover from knee surgery because he would be our version of Darling of West Coast - and we are still awaiting for his arrival.
Then we have Dow. It was known that he had poor disposal foot skills prior to the draft but we gave up a first pick for him. And what did the recruiters see in Honey that made him worthy of recruiting?
We have an unbalanced list with too many players lacking the disposal skills necessary to be a serious contender for the flag.
It's the same old same old. We get possession of the ball but keep turning it over because of poor disposal skills.
We keep playing Harry in the forward line. Why? He showed today that he is worthy of the title of Harry the Heartbreaker. He simply cannot be relied upon to kick goals.
It seems we have also got the problem of players with dumb disposal syndrome anytime pressure is applied in the game.
Realistically, I don't think I will see another Carlton premiership in my lifetime.
Small forwards aren't giving us enough...but I reckon we could also do with a Brad Pearce type fast leading medium sized forward to act as a foil to the Curnow/ McKay combination.
(One that isn't always injured. ;) )
I reckon the hype generated in the first half of last season is catching up to us. To me it looks like the is no intensity or urgency as the players have been told by people patting them on the back that they will make the finals. While we lost a few close games in the second half of last season since the bye round last year we appear to just going through the motions. As I said before the Richmond game if we are still relying on players such as Ed Curnow we are in trouble. When I look at our list containing cloggers like Boyd, Fogarty, S.Durdin etc who couldn’t get a game at their original clubs but we think are going to make a difference when they play for us I think all of us are caught up in the hype. Our list isn’t deep enough yet to challenge consistently with injuries.
Sick of playing blokes like O’Brien who have no heart or fierce competitiveness to attack the ball. If a few of our guys are having a bad day they put up the white flag with no desire to fight on crack in or even do the one percenters that might make it hard for the opposition.
We are playing with no heart
I dont think pace is the problem, when I strip it all back, the biggest problem is extremely poor disposal. Whether is its:
- General field kicking
- Kicks I50
- Goal kicking
I watch a lot of footy every week, I reckon we are one of the worst in comp for both deciding what to do with it and executing the disposal.
Voss intimated that in his presser.
We are not switched on like last year. Work rate is incomparable. Disposal inefficiency is a symptom of that as there is a lack of care.
Hope it isn't the same as with previous coaches. Play our best football under them year 1 them gets worse from there as the intensity and "want" drops off. Malthouse through to Teague have been the same. St.Kilda have been the same. Last year we were the most exciting to watch, ripping it out of stoppages, playing with dare and setting ourselves up. Our turnover game was much better last year. We're not even close to that this year.
We are not switched on like last year. Work rate is incomparable. Disposal inefficiency is a symptom of that as there is a lack of care.
Hope it isn't the same as with previous coaches. Play our best football under them year 1 them gets worse from there as the intensity and "want" drops off. Malthouse through to Teague have been the same. St.Kilda have been the same. Last year we were the most exciting to watch, ripping it out of stoppages, playing with dare and setting ourselves up. Our turnover game was much better last year. We're not even close to that this year.
Yep. There seems to be some kind of systemic malaise affecting the club that gets a hold on everyone who enters the gates. Looks like another very mediocre year in the offing unfortunately.
We worked our butts off yesterday. We were outplayed/outsmarted. The players can't give anymore. Blaming the lowest possession players on the ground and the substitute is primary school stuff.
Problem will be with West Coast being so poor is we will probably see an artificial improvement this week that will mask the problems we have until we play another decent team where we will get exposed again..
Small forwards aren't giving us enough...but I reckon we could also do with a Brad Pearce type fast leading medium sized forward to act as a foil to the Curnow/ McKay combination.
(One that isn't always injured. ;) )
We would kick it over his head or at this feet.
Brand. What is ours? For the first 2 qtrs I think we saw it against the Aints. Well on top of a very good, in form, opponent. However...
...our forward line was inefficient and apart from H & Charlies, and occasionally JSOS, no-one presented other leading options for blokes up the field. Too much left to too few. As the game progressed this became more apparent. And when the heat came in the second half, it was only our two talls. JSOS lapsed into errors, critical errors that should not occur at this level and our small forwards, vanished. When that inevitable heat came later in the game (tiredness… more on that below), Fisher, small Durds & Mots failed to impose and create, but rather shrank. So, any wonder blokes up the field resorted to high kicks to our talls.
Had we been more efficient, nailing simple shots on goal, it would have provided scoreboard pressure and very importantly, confidence for all. Missed sitters sap confidence.
When I hear our coaching group and players talk, humility, empathy and mindfulness are often mentioned – all sound psychological ingredients. However, we must remember that our blokes, when it’s all boiled down, are warriors going into battle and should and must have fight and competitiveness addressed and implemented at an ‘above the shoulders’ level. We risk too much ‘nice’ when the before mentioned psychological ingredients become foremost. 120 minutes of a hunger for ruthless persistence in every contest must be the foremost to handle and want heat. We can’t and don’t hunger for heat. Too many shrink in the heat (e.g., Fisher, JSOS, small forwards) and errors ensue.
Cliques. Groups within groups. This results in out of form and even ‘not up to it’ blokes getting automatic selection based on reputation and/or being popular off field within one of these favoured groups or cliques.
Diet. Are our blokes too ‘carbed up?’ Latest research on carbs/sugars suggest strongly that this is not what it was once believed to be. When you have to pop caffeine tablets to get a lift (counter the tiredness brought on by sugars), you’re in trouble. Not to mention the long-term effects of caffeine on the body, but that’s a discussion for another day. For many folks meat and veggies (complex carbs, much better for the human body) work a treat. Some can handle high carbs but many can’t.
Just thoughts.
We worked our butts off yesterday. We were outplayed/outsmarted. The players can't give anymore. Blaming the lowest possession players on the ground and the substitute is primary school stuff.
Its not about possession numbers, we blew StK out of the water in that regard, it was the poor quality of last kick into the fwd 50 that killed us....again.
Its not about possession numbers, we blew StK out of the water in that regard, it was the poor quality of last kick into the fwd 50 that killed us....again.
It was poor all over the ground. Our poor efficiency has been masked by the 20 metre backward kicks.
Have a look on the AFL app at the possession heat map and that sums up the day.
St Kilda may be the hardest team to play against and we do have Saad and Docherty out. I think yesterday we would have beat most teams but not the likes of Collingwood. Who play the sling shot game better than anyone.
Its not about possession numbers, we blew StK out of the water in that regard, it was the poor quality of last kick into the fwd 50 that killed us....again.
Agree to a large extent. We seemed to be breaking down and turning it over as we tried to enter our fwd third of the ground, especially F50. We need to drastically improve here and could urgently use a couple of more skilled link players going forward into F50. Not showing through at the moment unfortunately.
With our driving forces off half-back missing, our strategy relied on two aspects,
A) winning the mid-field battles.
B) efficiency and variation in the forward half.
We got Part A right in the first half but not Part B. (We actually haven't all season. It's a dog's breakfast that relies too much on two players.)
When they evened up the midfield after half-time it was game over.
We have elite tall forwards. We have a very mediocre support forward group.
St Kilda may be the hardest team to play against and we do have Saad and Docherty out. I think yesterday we would have beat most teams but not the likes of Collingwood. Who play the sling shot game better than anyone.
Saad and Doc could well have made a big difference.
With our driving forces off half-back missing, our strategy relied on two aspects,
A) winning the mid-field battles.
B) efficiency and variation in the forward half.
We got Part A right in the first half but not Part B. (We actually haven't all season. It's a dog's breakfast that relies too much on two players.)
When they evened up the midfield after half-time it was game over.
We have elite tall forwards. We have a very mediocre support forward group.
Spot on.
Punters expect silver service to forwards as a standard - but thats never going to happen when they are under constant pressure and running at full speed. You do expect small forwards to be at the fall of the ball we have three of them and they lack craft. We won't win many games if we just depend on Charlie and Harry while small forwards kick one goal per game between three of them its almost like we only have 15 payers on the ground.
I disagree with the small forwards. They have the hardest job on the field. No one kicks the ball to them and they have to run around chasing with little to no chance of catching anyone just to put pressure on.
Harry wasn't giving many crumbs yesterday, he was marking everything then stuffing it up. Why does he even bother leading to his right? He doesn't even want the kick.
Not sure what you guys were worried about. I actually thought we did better than I expected given the form lines of both teams.
I said Membrey would kick 4 which is halfway to a winning score for Ross lyons team (was the final amount of goals we needed to go from loss to win, with Membrey having a wayward day at the office).
Our biggest issue is still ourselves. Our game plan seems a bit tricky for me to understand off the field.
If Voss can survive this season, we will likely turn the corner and start putting it together next season.
Most of us including myself keep saying how we are underperforming and how frustrating it is but the time has come to face facts and admit this collection of footballers are what they are which is a middle of the road team. This list dynamics do make it easy to overrate them because our handful of top end talent when the game is on their terms can make us look unstoppable, however our oppositions have worked us out and we are being shown up as one trick ponies that when things are not on our terms this list doesn't have the ability to get the job done and this has been proven time and time and time again.
The list appears mentally weak and has little to no footy IQ and a below standard group of ball use ability across the board. The reality is we have very few and I'm talking a handful at best of consistently good users by foot and that is not enough to be a real contender.
We may still even sneak into the finals but we are not a real contender and need major changes again to get a more even spread of talent to go to the next level.
Not a great game to go to. Our daughter looked up from her ipad occassionlly when we said "look ,flashing blue lights" after we kicked a goal. She's only 7, but don't think footy is for her. She had the best afternoon of the four of us.
I think someone said that we outlplayed St Kilda and I kind of agree - it is our wastefulness that hurts. What I observed:
- A lot of kicks coming out of the backline aren't to the next players advantage when they are in space - they have to prop and go back, sideways to get the footy to then go forward again, which ruins some momentum
- When we try to play on quickly, it is almost like they don't care about what happens to their disposal. There were some horrific turnovers from just blindly playing on
- a lot of our dinky kicks put pressure on the receiver, as they are slow and have air.
- There were at least 2 times where we had the ball and ran into our own players, as well as several other times where it seemed we weren't talking to each other. This is basic U10s.
- Young in the ruck isn't the answer (not sure what the question was)
- Harry kicked a goal with a nice drop punt. Don't get why he didn't do that with the one when he was going for his 7 point play.
- Cripps needs to work on his run up with set shots. It is uneven and doesn't know where he is going to kick it from.
- JSOS say no more. Inexcusable from 20 out.
- where are the little fellas?
- need to work out what type of player the sub should be. We talk about impact - LOB isn't that. He did get 5 for the quarter, which is a good game (averaging it out), but isn't damaging in that time. Should it be the flashy? Don't know when it is going to work.
Finally, we don't run out games because we waste so much energy trying to get a goal. Everyone is coming forward and then we stuff the kick into the forward line, we don't have presence on the ground, the ball is gone and we have to run hard to get back, which is not our strong point. Not the fitness coach's problem.
I think it was in the first quarter, we had the ball and running forward and you could see the pace of the Saints player bearing down from a long way away (might have been Hill). Didn't get there, but put some good pressure on us.
I may be the only one on here who takes solace from the fact that in this round, last year's Grand Finalists lost by nearly 100 points. At least we gave a yelp and fought it out.....
Surely we could hire out Marvel for a short goal kicking training session?
MCG for that matter too?
It was poor all over the ground. Our poor efficiency has been masked by the 20 metre backward kicks.
Have a look on the AFL app at the possession heat map and that sums up the day.
I suspect that possession heat map is only available as part of some paid subscription or plan. It's not on my free AFL app.
I suspect that possession heat map is only available as part of some paid subscription or plan. It's not on my free AFL app.
I don't pay for anything. I think telstra customers get more stats but I'm with Optus and I see the map.
Click on our game.
Then you will see
Summary Players Teams Tracker.
Click on Teams then scroll down to possessions.
Good thing it was a warm day, otherwise the forwards would have got cold!
I don't pay for anything. I think telstra customers get more stats but I'm with Optus and I see the map.
Click on our game.
Then you will see
Summary Players Teams Tracker.
Click on Teams then scroll down to possessions.
Yep, you're absolutely right. Not sure how I missed that. Thanks for pointing it out.
Personally, I thought yesterday was SoJ's best game for 2023, when we rucked Young and stopped stuffing SoJ around with a hopeless task in the ruck he was more effective right across the ground. The only thing I'd say is that we should be trying to get SoJ into more of the lead up rotation with Charlie and BigH, that'll lighten the work load and they won't be taking so many shots at goal with tired legs.
Let BigH or SoJ ruck inside F50 and leave Pitto to stay D50 side of the contest, and divide up ruck duties with Young or TDK as required by selection policy and opposition each week. Try to get Cripps and Hewett spending a bit more time at F50 stoppages in fresh condition.
Sounds easy, but needs serious management to achieve.
Also, some might bag Kennedy for losing his feet, but I thought his midfield nous gave us a bit of calmness in and around the D50 traffic, he was able to find a bit of time and space and greatly reduced the hot potato syndrome we sometimes suffer. Given he hasn't really played too much D50, I thought it showed he wasn't completely out of place. These little moments just add a piece of the puzzle to how the coaches can manage workload on match days without having to shuffle the list at selection. Swapping Kennedy for Doc or Saad through the midfield is now an option.
Don't know if you have noticed, but all our set shot kicking has gone off a bit, we seem to be getting into the habit of leaning back on the kicks, it's a bad habit because it leaves more height to drop between hand and foot and you end up kicking the ball higher than is necessary. Also, Cripps, SoJ, Charlie and Big H all kick the pill much further than they think, I've no idea why they run so close to the man on the mark then put the ball 10 rows back in the stand!
I believe that as a club we are too fixated on the list and not how we play, or "the system". Man for man, I believe that our top say 6-10 players are the equal of any in the league and we have the key components to succeed (Cripps, Weitering, Harry Charlie is a damn good spine). But our game plan or whatever you call it is like something out of the 1970s. It's antiquated, obselete and doesn't win games in the 21st century.
And reflects a poor coaching and "brains trust".
I wouldn't be too worried about BigH and the other KPPs kicking, they will always have good and bad days, the media are going to beat up on them, but we need to stick fat, it's not the lack of opportunities for them, it's the lack of crumbing goals that are killing us at the moment.
Aints must have cleaned up 98% of the ground ball in our D50, the low rate of success crumbing is abominable, just unacceptable. You only need to get 2 or 3 crumbing goals a game to flip the equation, take the pressure off the KPFs and turn a deficit into a lead. When Owies went out we've lost both a deep defensive runner and 2 goals a game that we've failed to replace, Honey hasn't had an impact, not sure where we go from here, Motlop is basically a highlights type player not a 4-qtr workhorse. Small Durdin is horribly out of form. Some fans might defend small Durdin because he's averaging a goal and a bit, but other than that goal and a bit he's not having much impact. Sure he made some tackles, but his opponent was still able to dispose of the footy in most tackles, a tackle is basically a zero stat if you fail to trap the pill.
I think another thing missing in 2023 is goals from the midfield, last year we had Cripps, Hewett, Cerra and Kennedy all contributing at times, this year that has basically evaporated. Is it due to form or tactical changes, it's hard to tell, probably a bit of both?
Our small forwards can't take a mark above to their head and just dont get enough of the ball at ground level.
We need a Weightman, Elliott, Ryan, Bolton type who can be a proper target and not just a crumber...
It was poor all over the ground. Our poor efficiency has been masked by the 20 metre backward kicks.
Have a look on the AFL app at the possession heat map and that sums up the day.
Agree re poor all over the ground, but some of the kicks into the forward line was embarrassing. As I said, I couldnt watch much after the start of the 3rd.
You mean like a Jack Martin lol.
Like a Jack Martin... except he plays games and performs consistently throughout.
Just watched the 2nd half again. Yep, sucker for punishment!
Although it is somewhat feint praise, the endeavour was there... efficiency and proper passing by foot, was not. As others have noted, we tend to kick it on the head of our team mates and don't often enough kick it to their run and space - the backline does, but delivery to forwards needs much work. Some of the passes to JSOS & Charlie were just horrible.
We can forget JSOS and Fisher getting dropped, but LOB, Honey and small Durds need Magoo time. Honey was awful.
Cincotta was one of our better defenders, with good work by hand and foot but let himself down by being run-down... team mates not telling him he was hot? Young & Weiters are down on form. Gov was okay/good. Really missed the composure and smarts of Doc/Saady. Newman tried to be too cute by foot too often.
I think Fog would be an upgrade on small Durds at present. And Carroll an upgrade on Honey. LOB probably survives as the sub for another week.
Boyd and Cottrell should be available in the next few weeks.
If you get a chance check out the hold on JSOS at about the 1-2 minute mark of the 3rd... right in front of the umpire, JSOS jumper was being held - plainly. Though I guess that's counter-balanced by a few gifts we received in the first half.
I'm not as pessimistic as some. Yes, we've been average to below average most of the season thus far. The only way is up, and our first half against the Aints was really good and better conversion would have made all the difference... but there too often seems to be an 'if only.'
If we bring the first half intensity of the Aints game for the entire game, along with better conversion, we'll account for the Weagles quite comfortably.
I watched the Geelong game and we could do well to study how they were feeding the ball into F50. Some of it was real precision stuff and I really noticed this especially from Dangerfield and Meiers.
We are fit, we just dont go hard enough at the critical times and have too many players looking for the cheap easy kick.
Too many one-way players who either don't or can't apply pressure on opponents going the other way
There's no doubt we need other routes to goal. That needs to be built on a robust system. I recall a game in 22 where our wingers kicked 5 goals.
Play LOB in the 22 or the VFL - he is not useful as a sub
I watched the Geelong game and we could do well to study how they were feeding the ball into F50. Some of it was real precision stuff and I really noticed this from Dangerfield and Meiers.
Cookie the difference is they have good ball users that are skilled enough to do it under pressure. Our guys have a crack but we cant consistently hit targets by foot when there is any sort of heat on. We do it at training or during junk time but when the heat is on we are hit and miss which results in a fast turn over and opposition teams prey on it.
We have decent ball movers in defence (when plowman is out) but as it moves through the middle we lack finishers. This is why the loss of Doc and Saad is massive to forward connection. And when 2 out of your 3 key targets are Jack and Harry even when we get it in they are hit and miss at best. Geelong have finishers as forwards Cameron Hawkins Rohan etc are all very reliable shots and they make the most of their chances.
We are miles off that level.
Like a Jack Martin... except he plays games and performs consistently throughout.
If Martin could be what Shai Bolton is half the time we would be premiers...
Our defenders weren't that bad, except that we got hurt playing Kennedy in defence. He isn't a defender, not matter what else he might be. Kennedy provides depth in the midfield and an option in attack, I agree that he is not a defender.
Our disposal into the forward line was appalling. The number of times we kicked directly to St. Kilda defenders ... I lost track of how many times it happened. The worst ones were when the kicks went to multiple Saints with no Blues in the vicinity.
Honey has to be dropped. I think he will be gone at the end of the season: he hasn't made any significant progress at all. Fair comment.
O'Brien has to go back: he hasn't offered much as sub. He plays wing or he plays VFL, my preferred option. Fully agree.
Pittonet was excellent today: he beat a guy that some people are claiming to be All-Australian. He gave our mids first use for the 1st half and then held his own thereafter. He was a big winner on the day. Also, Young was much more useful than Silvagni as a back-up – one of the few (if not the only) MC successes for the day.
We have an unbalanced list with too many players lacking the disposal skills necessary to be a serious contender for the flag.
AND too many often-injured list cloggers reducing our ability to recruit alternatives.
Young has been out of form of late and struggled vs a rusty Membrey. Maybe some rucking might give him some more confidence as he is being pushed aside too easily in marking duels.
Matthew Lloyd said he watched Stkilda pre season and couldn't believe the hard running that Lyon put them through.
I do wonder given our injury woes that Russell and crew went light on the running pre season and we are struggling for pace and endurance as a team.
Cookie the difference is they have good ball users that are skilled enough to do it under pressure. AND especially when there is little or no pressure (i.e. yesterday)
Our guys have a crack but we cant consistently hit targets by foot when there is any sort of heat on. AND even when there is no heat on.
Our small forwards can't take a mark above to their head and just dont get enough of the ball at ground level.
We need a Weightman, Elliott, Ryan, Bolton type who can be a proper target and not just a crumber...
Can you imagine what a Heeney type would do in and around Charlie and BigH?
I wouldn't be too worried about BigH and the other KPPs kicking, they will always have good and bad days, the media are going to beat up on them, but we need to stick fat, it's not the lack of opportunities for them, it's the lack of crumbing goals that are killing us at the moment.
Aints must have cleaned up 98% of the ground ball in our D50, the low rate of success crumbing is abominable, just unacceptable. You only need to get 2 or 3 crumbing goals a game to flip the equation, take the pressure off the KPFs and turn a deficit into a lead. When Owies went out we've lost both a deep defensive runner and 2 goals a game that we've failed to replace, Honey hasn't had an impact, not sure where we go from here, Motlop is basically a highlights type player not a 4-qtr workhorse. Small Durdin is horribly out of form. Some fans might defend small Durdin because he's averaging a goal and a bit, but other than that goal and a bit he's not having much impact. Sure he made some tackles, but his opponent was still able to dispose of the footy in most tackles, a tackle is basically a zero stat if you fail to trap the pill.
I think another thing missing in 2023 is goals from the midfield, last year we had Cripps, Hewett, Cerra and Kennedy all contributing at times, this year that has basically evaporated. Is it due to form or tactical changes, it's hard to tell, probably a bit of both?
LP, I don't get too concerned when points are kicked by our forwards when they are under pressure and are taking hurried kicks at goal.
My concern is the failure rate of Big Harry and other KPPs to convert from deliberate shots at goal. We have had this problem for some years now and there does not appear to be a solution.
Failure to kick the really gettable goals is a confidence killer and must sap the morale of the team.
If I recall The Aints missed a couple of puddings as well, it wasn't the difference people think.
Aints got 6 or 7 goals from SFs and/or resting Mids, we got 2!
btw., The stats the way they are collected are somewhat misleading or bogus, the claim from official stats is that we were more efficient from I50s than The Aints having almost the same number of entries, what a joke! ;D
We might need a new small forward.
Motlop's copped a week for rough conduct.
Young fined for striking
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/1315496?fbclid=IwAR3MqmCQL0e1qfB-coih0CcdW3AiI5TvPmPo65Umd_kNE3OwAi6bdnLbI54
Interesting hearing Matthew Lloyd on Access All Areas - said he watched St Kilda train a number of times in the pre season, and concluded that they would be in for a long year, because a. they had more players injured than on the training track, and b. they were constantly missing targets. But the other thing he noted is that they were getting hammered with their running. He said he couldn't believe how much running Lyon and Misson were getting the boys to do, and pretty hard running at that. If nothing else, he noted, they would be extremely fit.
We might need a new small forward.
Motlop's copped a week for rough conduct.
Young fined for striking
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/1315496?fbclid=IwAR3MqmCQL0e1qfB-coih0CcdW3AiI5TvPmPo65Umd_kNE3OwAi6bdnLbI54
Motlop is still young and learning, and no great loss IMO. I'm glad Young was only fined.
Was the closest Motlop got to the ball all day and forked that up too.
Interesting hearing Matthew Lloyd on Access All Areas - said he watched St Kilda train a number of times in the pre season, and concluded that they would be in for a long year, because a. they had more players injured than on the training track, and b. they were constantly missing targets. But the other thing he noted is that they were getting hammered with their running. He said he couldn't believe how much running Lyon and Misson were getting the boys to do, and pretty hard running at that. If nothing else, he noted, they would be extremely fit.
The thing about that is that there is a lot of months between the start of a season and the end.
They may have had an intense pre-season that has left them very fit for the early rounds but through the season there will need to be peaks and troughs of training intensity.
How they manage and maintain those training loads may tell a story.
A pre season is very important.
It's the time for hard work, putting it in the bank so to speak, but there is also an element that must be maintained and managed so training loads in July-August will be very different to early in the year.
Young has been out of form of late and struggled vs a rusty Membrey. Maybe some rucking might give him some more confidence as he is being pushed aside too easily in marking duels.
Matthew Lloyd said he watched Stkilda pre season and couldn't believe the hard running that Lyon put them through.
I do wonder given our injury woes that Russell and crew went light on the running pre season and we are struggling for pace and endurance as a team.
They have more sub whatever the number is 2km runners than any team in the comp.
The thing about that is that there is a lot of months between the start of a season and the end.
They may have had an intense pre-season that has left them very fit for the early rounds but through the season there will need to be peaks and troughs of training intensity.
How they manage and maintain those training loads may tell a story.
A pre season is very important.
It's the time for hard work, putting it in the bank so to speak, but there is also an element that must be maintained and managed so training loads in July-August will be very different to early in the year.
Yep, no doubt.
Can you imagine what a Heeney type would do in and around Charlie and BigH?
He'd watch the ball sail over his head or hit him on the shins just like Harry and Charlie do. Its officially embarrassing now.
Was the closest Motlop got to the ball all day and forked that up too.
Beat me too it Prof....not sure why he chose to sling tackle Howard, there is zero tolerance now for that type of tackle where the head hits the ground. Young had a poor game especially early and should have been fined by the coaching dept for being so feeble vs Membrey..
He'd watch the ball sail over his head or hit him on the shins just like Harry and Charlie do. Its officially embarrassing now.
Heeney would know nobody is going to out mark Charlie or BigH and be there at the feet of the marking contest pretty much every single time!
Motlop can spend the next two weeks getting fit, saved us dropping him
Motlop can spend the next two weeks getting fit, saved us dropping him
Don't care about Motlop's form we must stick fat, Mitch Duncan says hello. :o
The MRP is becoming a parody of itself, fans of footy should tear down AFL House wherever it resides!
Is becoming? Has been for years
Coaches' votes :
10 Jack Sinclair (STK)
7 Patrick Cripps (CARL)
6 Adam Cerra (CARL)
3 Bradley Hill (STK)
2 Dan Butler (STK)
1 Rowan Marshall (STK)
1 Sebastian Ross (STK)
It's not Motlop it's the coaches that keep persisting with under performing players.
Motlop is a big talent though.
Ironic that Ward, who has had awful injuries and concussion issues has accepted his suspension to promote the cause, yet Duncan, from the Bilbies gets off. Seems a bit selective from the MRO. Again.
Agree with you Pinot, but he does need a week off to reset. Plenty of blokes need a kick in the backside but there's nothing in the twos and our ultra conservative MC won't drop blokes or promote twos players.
Play LOB in the 22 or the VFL - he is not useful as a sub
Agree absolutely. He is an endurance runner, not a sprinter, so he doesn't get any advantage out of being the sub. Then there is his decision making, which is not good enough yet.
Heeney would know nobody is going to out mark Charlie or BigH and be there at the feet of the marking contest pretty much every single time!
We all know that. Surely our smalls and coaches are well versed too. Yet!
Young has been out of form of late and struggled vs a rusty Membrey. Maybe some rucking might give him some more confidence as he is being pushed aside too easily in marking duels.
Matthew Lloyd said he watched Stkilda pre season and couldn't believe the hard running that Lyon put them through.
I do wonder given our injury woes that Russell and crew went light on the running pre season and we are struggling for pace and endurance as a team.
We're likely to get Ben Mackay next year so young might have to get used to a 2nd ruck role, like he had at the Dogs/
Coaches' votes :
10 Jack Sinclair (STK)
7 Patrick Cripps (CARL)
6 Adam Cerra (CARL)
3 Bradley Hill (STK)
2 Dan Butler (STK)
1 Rowan Marshall (STK)
1 Sebastian Ross (STK)
Interesting that Toss Lyon's 2 players responsible for their spread (which swung the game, reduced the impact of our midfield dominance), got their top votes.
We're likely to get Ben Mackay next year so young might have to get used to a 2nd ruck role, like he had at the Dogs/
McKay is an interesting recruitment theory. Not sure how it's such a priority.
McKay is an interesting recruitment theory. Not sure how it's such a priority.
Ben could be a third defender/ruck.
It's clear these two don't want to play against each other as it hasn't happened in 8 years. That must be some sort of record.
I agree though it shouldn't be a priority. We could use him as a backup in case because tall durdin is an also ran, marchbank pulls the pin. Would also join the infirmary and fit right in...
Ben could be a third defender/ruck.
It's clear these two don't want to play against each other as it hasn't happened in 8 years. That must be some sort of record.
I agree though it shouldn't be a priority. We could use him as a backup in case because tall durdin is an also ran, marchbank pulls the pin. Would also join the infirmary and fit right in...
Sure. For Marchbank. Although we've managed without him for years sadly.
Ben certainly an upgrade on tall Durdin.
There's lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth on Carlton supporting social media this week.
There seems to be a lot more angst over this loss rather than the Adelaide one, which in my opinion was much worse.
One punter even suggested that we'd brought Walsh back to soon and he should go back to the reserves.
I think it was Ricky Gervais who said something along the lines of... "Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and everyone else is entitled to find those opinions F#ck$n ridiculous"
We're apparently a crap team with a crap coach who we need to replace.
Well if we're such a crap team with such a crap coach it reflects pretty poorly on St Kilda and their coach who were beaten in just about every key statistic and could only beat us by 22 points ;)
Well if we're such a crap team with such a crap coach it reflects pretty poorly on St Kilda and their coach who were beaten in just about every key statistic and could only beat us by 22 points ;)
As Pauline Hanson would say, "Please Explain?"
There's lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth on Carlton supporting social media this week.
There seems to be a lot more angst over this loss rather than the Adelaide one, which in my opinion was much worse.
One punter even suggested that we'd brought Walsh back to soon and he should go back to the reserves.
I think it was Ricky Gervais who said something along the lines of... "Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and everyone else is entitled to find those opinions F#ck$n ridiculous"
We're apparently a crap team with a crap coach who we need to replace.
Well if we're such a crap team with such a crap coach it reflects pretty poorly on St Kilda and their coach who were beaten in just about every key statistic and could only beat us by 22 points ;)
Yep. And perhaps we're actually a really good club simply going through a difficult, maybe growing pains, time? Perhaps making excuses (legitimate reasons - still can't get our best or near best squad on the park & the trials and tribulations of changing culture, not to mention gifting players games who don't deserve it and not rewarding good Magoo form)... is something we find difficult as we've been doing it for nigh on 23 years!
I think the severe supporter reaction to the Aints game was more due to it being 2 losses in a row.
As Pauline Hanson would say, "Please Explain?"
We lost because of structure and inefficency on the day, not because their coach or their side is a much superior unit.
In fact the game could quite easily have been wrapped up by half time
Both structure and inefficiency are things that can be improved on.
The doom and gloom reaction from some folks is totally off the charts.
Our side that took the field on the weekend will probably look substantially different by round 23....and hopefully much more efficient.
Improvement is not a linear thing it's a peak and trough thing.
There will be ups and downs but as long as the general trend is in the right direction you'r e going OK.
The time to judge that is not half a dozen rounds into the season.
Lyon won the coaching duel when he put Sinclair into the middle, that changed the game. I seem to remember Sinclair doing a number on us several times.
Yep we won the stats but let's dive deeper...the Lyon game plan forces you to feck around with ball, go sideways, then sideways again with useless kicks as you try and pick your way through and it's perfect for a slow moving , poor kicking team like we have.
The stat count for our players was ridiculous this game...our mids had so much of the ball but no idea on what to do with it.
Lyon won this game in the coaching box and showed he hasn't lost much of his cunning since his Freo days.
It was also watching the pitiful way we played. The constant kicks direct to a St player Or to one of ours with 3 Sts on him.
The backwards and sideways slow slow movement to then hit the 50 and bomb It in, again. Only to watch it fly out again.
The non tackles and the getting caught constantly.
That was what was painful to watch
Lyon won the coaching duel when he put Sinclair into the middle, that changed the game. I seem to remember Sinclair doing a number on us several times.
Yep we won the stats but let's dive deeper...the Lyon game plan forces you to feck around with ball, go sideways, then sideways again with useless kicks as you try and pick your way through and it's perfect for a slow moving , poor kicking team like we have.
The stat count for our players was ridiculous this game...our mids had so much of the ball but no idea on what to do with it.
Lyon won this game in the coaching box and showed he hasn't lost much of his cunning since his Freo days.
Richardson commented on Lyons structure at the end of the game last night. He said being at the ground, watching their defensive structure move and hold position in sync was something to see. He and Daisy Thomas both said after watching them live on Sunday, StKilda are the real deal. Daisy went with a more comical description saying something like, every time Ross dropped bait, Voss went to get it and Ross gobbled him up.
It's a bit of a Lyon 'love-in' at the moment.
There is no doubt he is a great tactical and game day coach.
It's silly to dispute otherwise.
In fact his time away has probably enabled him to hone those skills.
He was pretty impressive in some of the analysis he used to do on 'Footy Classified'.
Can he maintain and keep the love flowing over the season is the question.
It's funny...everyone wants him now but when we had a poll on the new coach after Teague, 55 people voted and only 3 voted for Lyon.
We need a better forward mix. Its up to the coaches to rectify it because it hasn't been working for years.
Defensive mix is top four - I rate our defence and defensive mechanisms as one of the best in the league.
Midfield mix is top six - out of form midfield that is starting to put it together need them healthy to build better cohesion but no doubt the clearance and tackling work is of high quality.
Forward mix is bottom four - We can't depend on Charlie and Harry every game - there are six players in the forward line not two and they all need to play their roles and pull their weight which they are not doing.
Last year we were contested bulls, dominating from stoppages. This we rank 17th for clearances. Work rate has dropped right off. Don't want it badly enough. Played one good game for the year, round 2 against Geelong.
Last year we started like a bull at the gate only to see us drop off considerably in the second half of the season. Maybe this year we are trying a slow buildup. ::) I think Geelong were the same and peaked at the business end of the season. Although we do need some pace on the outside.
Frustrating was Harry in the 3rd quarter trying to convert and then watching that rain maker kick that got swept away down forward...does all the hard work taking marks then just doesnt concentrate at the critical times and that proved a momentum shifter.
Yeah agree, however nothing has changed since last year or his Coleman year in his kicking style, so maybe its in his head and he is out of form goal kicking wise.
Complryely outcoached by Ross the Boss.
Yep. Played into his hands. Blocked all the exists. As a mate of mine said that night we had no idea how to play to his game style and it looked that way.
We need a better forward mix. Its up to the coaches to rectify it because it hasn't been working for years.
Defensive mix is top four - I rate our defence and defensive mechanisms as one of the best in the league.
Midfield mix is top six - out of form midfield that is starting to put it together need them healthy to build better cohesion but no doubt the clearance and tackling work is of high quality.
Forward mix is bottom four - We can't depend on Charlie and Harry every game - there are six players in the forward line not two and they all need to play their roles and pull their weight which they are not doing.
We miss Owies. He hits the scoreboard and ranked 3rd for inside 50 tackles last year.
Yep. Played into his hands. Blocked all the exists. As a mate of mine said that night we had no idea how to play to his game style and it looked that way.
Malthouse effectively used a big forward press when coaching the Pies and was very effective against Lyon's style.
It's a bit of a Lyon 'love-in' at the moment.
There is no doubt he is a great tactical and game day coach.
It's silly to dispute otherwise.
In fact his time away has probably enabled him to hone those skills.
He was pretty impressive in some of the analysis he used to do on 'Footy Classified'.
Can he maintain and keep the love flowing over the season is the question.
It's funny...everyone wants him now but when we had a poll on the new coach after Teague, 55 people voted and only 3 voted for Lyon.
Lyon has shown over a long period of time he can keep teams competitive and hard to beat right off the bat. Perhaps he isn't the serial killer everyone made him out to be.
Lyon's coaching record is a mixed bag. Some terrific seasons, some ordinary ones. 2016,17,18 and 19 were ordinary by any measure. 16th, 14th, 14th, 13th respectively. 4 seasons in a row of lowly finishes has to tarnish the reputation somewhat IMO.
There's lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth on Carlton supporting social media this week.
There seems to be a lot more angst over this loss rather than the Adelaide one, which in my opinion was much worse.
One punter even suggested that we'd brought Walsh back to soon and he should go back to the reserves.
I think it was Ricky Gervais who said something along the lines of... "Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and everyone else is entitled to find those opinions F#ck$n ridiculous"
We're apparently a crap team with a crap coach who we need to replace.
Well if we're such a crap team with such a crap coach it reflects pretty poorly on St Kilda and their coach who were beaten in just about every key statistic and could only beat us by 22 points ;)
I don't understand the fixation with statistics. If they are an accurate reflection of the game then we should have won.
Football statistics don't show whether a disposal by hand or foot was effective or whether it caused a turnover resulting in a goal; whether the ball was kicked sideways or backwards to no effect; whether a ruck tap was to our advantage etc, etc.
Until there is ever a meaningful breakdown of the statistics I regard them as being covered by the saying "lies, damn lies and statistics".
I don't understand the fixation with statistics. If they are an accurate reflection of the game then we should have won.
Football statistics don't show whether a disposal by hand or foot was effective or whether it caused a turnover resulting in a goal; whether the ball was kicked sideways or backwards to no effect; whether a ruck tap was to our advantage etc, etc.
Until there is ever a meaningful breakdown of the statistics I regard them as being covered by the saying "lies, damn lies and statistics".
Statistics are valuable and regarded as important information, and every club has their own stats people that do I assume what Champion Data does. The problem for us on the outside is that only a small number of stats are easily available, and they need sound football knowledge to interpret and use helpfully - not football forum level knowledge.
I don't understand the fixation with statistics. If they are an accurate reflection of the game then we should have won.
Football statistics don't show whether a disposal by hand or foot was effective or whether it caused a turnover resulting in a goal; whether the ball was kicked sideways or backwards to no effect; whether a ruck tap was to our advantage etc, etc.
Until there is ever a meaningful breakdown of the statistics I regard them as being covered by the saying "lies, damn lies and statistics".
Totally agree.
They are a component only.
They're a part of the story.
But they're often mentioned by coaches, commentators and analysists...so they do have a role
They're an indicator of where you're breaking down.
If you're dominating scoring and clearances yet are behind on the scoreboard there is a problem in efficiency and accuracy.
For the mere mortal you can probably gather that from observation of the game but in the review of performance by coaches they probably give a starting point for analysis and correction...and sometimes an indicator that the scoreboard alone also isn't telling the full story of how a game develops.
Lyon won the coaching duel when he put Sinclair into the middle, that changed the game. I seem to remember Sinclair doing a number on us several times.
Yep we won the stats but let's dive deeper...the Lyon game plan forces you to feck around with ball, go sideways, then sideways again with useless kicks as you try and pick your way through and it's perfect for a slow moving , poor kicking team like we have.
The stat count for our players was ridiculous this game...our mids had so much of the ball but no idea on what to do with it.
Lyon won this game in the coaching box and showed he hasn't lost much of his cunning since his Freo days.
Spot on. Yep and as usual with our club another dumb decision in passing on Lyon who while he may coach a non exciting game plan did get 2 separate lists into GFs and if not for a cruel bounce would be a premiership coach and yet we decided to run with a champion player but a man that failed miserably the last time he was head coach.
Typical.
Spot on. Yep and as usual with our club another dumb decision in passing on Lyon who while he may coach a non exciting game plan did get 2 separate lists into GFs and if not for a cruel bounce would be a premiership coach and yet we decided to run with a champion player but a man that failed miserably the last time he was head coach.
Typical.
Strictly speaking, that's not quite right. Lyon was only prepared to go through an interview process against the likes of Clarkson and Brad Scott. He basically pulled out when he realised he would have to compete for the job against assistants, something which he clearly viewed as beneath him. Folks will have to make up their own minds about the merits of his position. The club did not pass on him as such.
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/carlton-blues/afl-2022-news-ross-lyon-hits-back-over-carlton-coaching-decision-craig-hutchison/news-story/57cc22e343e6ba2dee416497b0b003f2
It came after Lyon told Triple M on the weekend: “The one thing I felt sick about … I was like ‘Yep I’m in, yeah I’m keen, I’m happy to go through a process. But this is what I said: ‘I don’t want to go through a process against other assistants’. I’ll go through a process against Brad Scott, Clarko, that’s fair enough. But assistants? I was like eh.”Also, as I suggested earlier, his last 4 years at Fremantle were very average - it's not unreasonable to speculate that he was burnt out or washed up.
It's a bit of a Lyon 'love-in' at the moment.
There is no doubt he is a great tactical and game day coach.
It's silly to dispute otherwise.
In fact his time away has probably enabled him to hone those skills.
He was pretty impressive in some of the analysis he used to do on 'Footy Classified'.
Can he maintain and keep the love flowing over the season is the question.
It's funny...everyone wants him now but when we had a poll on the new coach after Teague, 55 people voted and only 3 voted for Lyon.
Im not sure Lyon was the full problem it was more the response from our coaching box or lack of and as GTC suggested Voss just seemed to be reacting how Lyon wanted when he made moves and spent the afternoon reacting rather than being proactive.
We seem to lack forward planning or our scouting is poor....Collingwood just snuck home the previous week with the Daicos kids getting ridiculous stats and heavily losing the stat count doesnt worry Lyon as that means his game plan is working and you are being sucked into his vortex where play just goes back and forwards in an arc until its turned over by one of your poor kicking players.
We had way more disposals and they had four more inside 50's........ WTF were we doing with all that ball?......having kick to kick in the middle and across half back? That is a coaching fail.....its not a talent issue, either the players are stupid and cant follow directions or the directions are wrong.
Is Lyon a genius..No..... Are we dumb...Yes
We had way more disposals and they had four more inside 50's........ WTF were we doing with all that ball?......having kick to kick in the middle and across half back? That is a coaching fail.....its not a talent issue, either the players are stupid and cant follow directions or the directions are wrong.
Is Lyon a genius..No..... Are we dumb...Yes
^ this
The second half was diabolical to watch - back slow sideways back again then a switch then turnover, bang, saints goal.
It almost looked like the players were stuck in a mindset and couldn’t think for themselves to change it up. Completely frustrating crap to watch.
Also as someone said above, Lyon pulled out because he wanted the job handed to him. Remember there was some sort of commentary coming out about some allegations made against him whilst at Freo. Then he pulled out and didn’t want to interview to a panel for the job. So you think we should’ve just handed it to him rather than go thru a process. Voss had also turned our guys around.
Im not sure Lyon was the full problem it was more the response from our coaching box or lack of and as GTC suggested Voss just seemed to be reacting how Lyon wanted when he made moves and spent the afternoon reacting rather than being proactive.
We seem to lack forward planning or our scouting is poor....Collingwood just snuck home the previous week with the Daicos kids getting ridiculous stats and heavily losing the stat count doesnt worry Lyon as that means his game plan is working and you are being sucked into his vortex where play just goes back and forwards in an arc until its turned over by one of your poor kicking players.
We had way more disposals and they had four more inside 50's........ WTF were we doing with all that ball?......having kick to kick in the middle and across half back? That is a coaching fail.....its not a talent issue, either the players are stupid and cant follow directions or the directions are wrong.
Is Lyon a genius..No..... Are we dumb...Yes
I actually thought we came prepared. The plan seemed sound given we were without Saad and Docherty. It was always going to be on the mids and forwards and the lack of connection between those two groups was the main problem. Part of the issue is we have two stand-out forwards aided by some rather mediocre performing assistants.
Our small forwards are ineffective and our mids aren't impacting the scoreboard.
We came with the right attitude but were let down to often by poor decisions and disposal. The criticism in my eyes was more about our ability to react and nullify once the midfield advantage was lost after half-time, and yes I guess that is on Voss. Yep, the cross ground kicking is often frustrating. It's often used when there is really no advantage to it.
Voss apparently had a few personal issues during the lead-up to the game which kept him a way from the club for a day or two. It can't be used as an excuse but it may have had some effect on his focus.
Also as someone said above, Lyon pulled out because he wanted the job handed to him. Remember there was some sort of commentary coming out about some allegations made against him whilst at Freo. Then he pulled out and didn’t want to interview to a panel for the job. So you think we should’ve just handed it to him rather than go thru a process. Voss had also turned our guys around.
It's one of the reasons we probably need to wait a bit.
If we compare Voss's initial games at Carlton to Ross's at St Kilda we were probably filled with the same enthusiasm this time last year.
I've been a Carlton supporter my whole life and no matter what happens when Carlton play against St. Kilda we just have no idea how to beat them.
It's been that way as long as I can remember, and I wasn't expecting it to change now. Imagine wanting to slit your wrists because we lost to the form side of the competition?
Lyon won the coaching duel when he put Sinclair into the middle, that changed the game. I seem to remember Sinclair doing a number on us several times.
Yep, in a nutshell. Sinclair has spanked us many times in the past.
Not entirely sure but I think Ed C had the job on Sinclair when he was at half-back? Kept him relatively quiet.
Then Ross moved him into the middle, but Voss decided Ed wasn't the option? That there is one big mistake. I don't use the "out-coached" term much but in this instance it's warranted.
Yep, in a nutshell. Sinclair has spanked us many times in the past.
Not entirely sure but I think Ed C had the job on Sinclair when he was at half-back? Kept him relatively quiet.
Then Ross moved him into the middle, but Voss decided Ed wasn't the option? That there is one big mistake. I don't use the "out-coached" term much but in this instance it's warranted.
Agree that our coach appears to not like or be capable of adjusting mid game. However in his defence our gameplan was sound and we were way on top in general play in the first half but just don’t finish off our play and make poor decisions entering 50. We should have had a clear buffer at half time but as I said poor execution cost us again.
I've been a Carlton supporter my whole life and no matter what happens when Carlton play against St. Kilda we just have no idea how to beat them.
It's been that way as long as I can remember, and I wasn't expecting it to change now. Imagine wanting to slit your wrists because we lost to the form side of the competition?
Yes. It was actually only 15 min that beat us, generally due to our crap. Without that we may have been on top of the ladder. On the bright side we have alot more improvement in us than St.Kilda. Hopefully it comes to fruition, the hard part.
I don't understand the fixation with statistics. If they are an accurate reflection of the game then we should have won.
Football statistics don't show whether a disposal by hand or foot was effective or whether it caused a turnover resulting in a goal; whether the ball was kicked sideways or backwards to no effect; whether a ruck tap was to our advantage etc, etc.
Until there is ever a meaningful breakdown of the statistics I regard them as being covered by the saying "lies, damn lies and statistics".
Stats work better when they are combined with other stats.
Lyon's coaching record is a mixed bag. Some terrific seasons, some ordinary ones. 2016,17,18 and 19 were ordinary by any measure. 16th, 14th, 14th, 13th respectively. 4 seasons in a row of lowly finishes has to tarnish the reputation somewhat IMO.
Stats can be read either way Paul.......
Stats can be read either way Paul.......
I'm sure I'm missing something obvious, but I'm not exactly sure what you mean.
I'm sure I'm missing something obvious, but I'm not exactly sure what you mean.
I was being mischevious mate.
I was being mischevious mate.
Oh right.
How many years have I been saying we are to slow and yet we recruit slow players ( sos really Stuffed up ) not just saints think about all years where sides just blown us away . Now u 12 game plan and our strategy from Full back worst in competition 2022 proves that yet Voss and co change nothing for 23 season . Please sick of Coleman medalists and saad , Doc missing Need to fix our game plan and hopefully Austin can nail some recruits because sos failed in my eyes
I actually thought we came prepared. The plan seemed sound given we were without Saad and Docherty. It was always going to be on the mids and forwards and the lack of connection between those two groups was the main problem. Part of the issue is we have two stand-out forwards aided by some rather mediocre performing assistants.
Our small forwards are ineffective and our mids aren't impacting the scoreboard.
We came with the right attitude but were let down to often by poor decisions and disposal. The criticism in my eyes was more about our ability to react and nullify once the midfield advantage was lost after half-time, and yes I guess that is on Voss. Yep, the cross ground kicking is often frustrating. It's often used when there is really no advantage to it.
Voss apparently had a few personal issues during the lead-up to the game which kept him a way from the club for a day or two. It can't be used as an excuse but it may have had some effect on his focus.
Ill admit we were better prepared v the Saints and played better than the Adelaide game but we couldn't adjust in game (as we did the first the first three rounds) and our ball use was deplorable. I'm torn, I feel like we are playing worse than what we are and yet I can't see us lifting and playing better. The next 7 weeks will reveal all, it will tell us where we are really at and who has gone past us. So far, Ross and his StK boys have gone passed us giving us wind burn on the way through. The Cheats with Scott at the helm look far more stable and better coached at the minute. The Cats are knocking on the door of the 8 and with a string of home games, coupled with our difficult ones coming up will knock us out for sure.
I don't understand the fixation with statistics. If they are an accurate reflection of the game then we should have won.
Football statistics don't show whether a disposal by hand or foot was effective or whether it caused a turnover resulting in a goal; whether the ball was kicked sideways or backwards to no effect; whether a ruck tap was to our advantage etc, etc.
Until there is ever a meaningful breakdown of the statistics I regard them as being covered by the saying "lies, damn lies and statistics".
Macca stats aren't the be all and end all for me but they do tell a bit of a story. We beat the Saints in almost every stat yet lost by 4 goals (or near enough to that). What does that the reveal? We got enough of the footy but were horrible with it at critical junctures of the game. There is enough there for Voss to say in his presser that he was happy with some aspects but...
Macca stats aren't the be all and end all for me but they do tell a bit of a story. We beat the Saints in almost every stat yet lost by 4 goals (or near enough to that). What does that the reveal? We got enough of the footy but were horrible with it at critical junctures of the game. There is enough there for Voss to say in his presser that he was happy with some aspects but...
His presser was him living in denial a bit, the work in progress stuff is for teams like Nth, Hawks etc who are freshly rebuilding.
We should be the finished article all tooled up to do battle and winning the close ones because our experienced players
are leading the charge and we have the depth to over come injuries like Collingwood do.
There are no excuses anymore just poorly performing players and coaches depending on the day and the opposition.
Its been 8 years of rebuilding and its time to deliver or as a great man once said..." get off the pot"....
Can't argue with any of that EB.
While I don’t think it's gloom and doom just yet. I also don't think we have the all the right pieces in place.
We've seen our defence, midfield, and running back depth come up short in the past 12 months. Persistent injuries, underperforming (high picks, big bucks) or unsuitable recruitment, and slow or inadequate player development are likely contribtors.
This years recruits look good but we've got some making up to do. Nail a couple more selective additions providing speed, good disposal, and durability, and top 8 should be sustainable. I won't talk flags 🤐
I'm really hopeful we'll stabilise and improve on the back of some key returns and good post-bye form. We are screaming out for stability across lines. When we have that our connection improves and system holds up better. That's not to say we're improving at the rate of others, but we should be holding our own and chalking up the W's to stay in touch. At least that's how I see it.
Go Blues
Yes. It was actually only 15 min that beat us, generally due to our crap. Without that we may have been on top of the ladder. On the bright side we have alot more improvement in us than St.Kilda. Hopefully it comes to fruition, the hard part.
So true. It was, again, a lapse of around 15 mins as you say, that cost us (along with poor execution at times). We do it just about every game. From memory about the only game, win or lose, where there was no lapse was the D1ckers game last year... our only 4 qtr game I can recall.
And absolutely true that we have considerable improvement in us, if not... God help us!
Mistakes, injuries, lapses, skill errors, poor I50 entry, poor I50 pressure, vital goals missed. Our story for a long time now and no indication imo that we are really overcoming these issues. We have systemic problems.
A large part of our problem is a lack of continuity together.
While all our players get a fair few games each season it's a constant mix and match.
-We have half a dozen of our better players who are quite injury prone....some long term.
-We have others who are in and out of the side with minor injuries.
-How often does our best midfield take the field together
-How often does our best back six take the field together.
-In recent times how often has the side played 4 or 5 games together with just one or two changes...I doubt it's often, unless the injury toll is high and we have no suitable replacements.
Developing systems and stucture in that situation would be difficult.
As they line up each week they probably ask each other..."and who are you again?"
Mistakes, injuries, lapses, skill errors, poor I50 entry, poor I50 pressure, vital goals missed. Our story for a long time now and no indication imo that we are really overcoming these issues. We have systemic problems.
So true. Since the rebuild began the problems you have outlined have remained a constant despite a large turnover in players, several new coaches and many assistant coaches.
It is demoralising for supporters and players alike.
Mistakes, injuries, lapses, skill errors, poor I50 entry, poor I50 pressure, vital goals missed. Our story for a long time now and no indication imo that we are really overcoming these issues. We have systemic problems.
It's all between the ears!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A large part of our problem is a lack of continuity together.
While all our players get a fair few games each season it's a constant mix and match.
-We have half a dozen of our better players who are quite injury prone....some long term.
-We have others who are in and out of the side with minor injuries.
-How often does our best midfield take the field together
-How often does our best back six take the field together.
-In recent times how often has the side played 4 or 5 games together with just one or two changes...I doubt it's often, unless the injury toll is high and we have no suitable replacements.
Developing systems and stucture in that situation would be difficult.
As they line up each week they probably ask each other..."and who are you again?"
Other injury hit teams seem to be developing structures ok and fast....Stkilda have run without their two key forwards all year, have been missing their captain for 2-3 games as well...if we had Charlie, Harry and Crippa out we would all be screaming how unlucky we are but those teams like Stkilda and Collingwood with all their ruckman injured have found a way to win.
Those clubs in particular seem to have embraced setbacks and these inexperienced incoming players have stepped up to the plate...Owens, Caminiti, Frampton, Johnson, Hill.....etc.....why have Stkilda under Lyon been able to grasp his physically taxing game plan so quickly even all these unknown kids and spuds like Frampton who couldnt get a kick in a cow paddock at the Crows?
Whats the message at those clubs that makes these players want to fight out every game no matter what personnel are on the park....
Personally, compared to last season when I think we were in form but lost games we should have won, this year is the exact opposite and we look sadly out of form but have managed to win games we should probably have lost!
I don't think it has much to do with injuries or MC, I think it's a form line issue.
Other than Cripps, and now it seems Walsh, I can't say anybody else has shown consistent output.
The good news, Cerra looked to be on the up last game, a couple of others were better like Newman and SoJ. It's a good sign as long as we can get them all singing from the same hymn book.
Last year we were 4-2.
With losses to the Suns and Dockers and 1 point win over Hawthorn and a 3 point win over Port.
We all got caught up in the moment but revisiting it we weren't that great.
In terms of how we should be playing Saints game was best for the year.
So in other words playing like rubbish and still in top eight.
Small forwards have been worrying me for a long time and nothing past six games suggests won't be our weak-link again this year.
St Kilda may well be a better team overall with King as the spearhead. But counterintuitively, his absence hurt us. Our 2 KPDs had no obvious matchups but we couldn’t omit Weets and/or Young in order to deal with St Kilda’s smaller forward line. You can’t disrupt your back 6 on a horses for courses basis - you have to allow your KPDs to try to deal with that situation as it may well crop up unexpectedly in games. And we didn’t have any small defenders demanding a spot anyway.
Last year we were 4-2.
With losses to the Suns and Dockers and 1 point win over Hawthorn and a 3 point win over Port.
We all got caught up in the moment but revisiting it we weren't that great.
Our game vs Sydney was top shelf until we let them back into the game. Personally, some of our losses were way better than our wins. I.e. Collingwood x2, and the Melbourne game. We played really well and shot ourselves in the foot by going to sleep when the games were there to be won in most of them.
We are on the right path. If I cast my mind back, I seem to remember Richmond were the kings of stuffing around with the footy and kicking laterally out of the middle of the ground back in like 2011-2013 and were a complete rabble.
Richmond were masters of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Interesting grab from 3AW where Doc did special comments I think got the Monday game, they asked him if they reviewed the game and where it went wrong, he answered "ball use".
Richmond were masters of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Everything old is new again, welcome to the new Nthmond! ;D
You just know the worm is going to turn on the Filth as well, and with it we will celebrate the return of The Wobbles!
Interesting grab from 3AW where Doc did special comments I think got the Monday game, they asked him if they reviewed the game and where it went wrong, he answered "ball use".
Really hard to overcome the headspace issues that come with a lack of form, blokes can't pull the trigger to hit a targets, they hesitate, and from there on things only get worse because in that moment the target goes from a barn wall to pretty much threading the mouse's ear!
It's a very nasty nasty feedback loop!
Interesting grab from 3AW where Doc did special comments I think got the Monday game, they asked him if they reviewed the game and where it went wrong, he answered "ball use".
That was my exact thoughts also on the St Kilda game. Ball use and decision making was crap.
My concern is why is it crap? I think our players are simply not as skilled as the better teams. Look at our forwards in particular Harry, Charlie, Fisher, Jack, are all unreliable by foot if they have to field kick. (Jack used to be decent but he has fallen away this year) And if its a shot at goal Charlie is the only one you can 'just' rely on - the others and it literally could go anywhere.
And midfield wise Cerra, Cripps, Kennedy, Acres and Hewitt are also IMO average at best by foot with Walsh being the only one I think you can genuinely rely on consistently hit a target under pressure.
Compare that to the top teams where they have good users on each line and we are miles behind and this factor decides games most weeks.
Is it training that is sub par at our club or just in the players DNA.... I dont know?
St Kilda may well be a better team overall with King as the spearhead. But counterintuitively, his absence hurt us. Our 2 KPDs had no obvious matchups but we couldn’t omit Weets and/or Young in order to deal with St Kilda’s smaller forward line. You can’t disrupt your back 6 on a horses for courses basis - you have to allow your KPDs to try to deal with that situation as it may well crop up unexpectedly in games. And we didn’t have any small defenders demanding a spot anyway.
We didnt have any listed genuine small defenders at all other than the underdone Boyd......didnt Kennedy have to spend time down back? Looks like we need to recruit some small defenders, maybe some kind team can give us one for free..
Richmond were masters of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Don't we know it thanks to Nick Duigan and the best sub in history.
We didnt have any listed genuine small defenders at all other than the underdone Boyd......didnt Kennedy have to spend time down back? Looks like we need to recruit some small defenders, maybe some kind team can give us one for free..
Great idea. Let's check with the drugcheats and saints. They're probably waiting for the opportunity to return the favour 😆
That was my exact thoughts also on the St Kilda game. Ball use and decision making was crap.
My concern is why is it crap? I think our players are simply not as skilled as the better teams. Look at our forwards in particular Harry, Charlie, Fisher, Jack, are all unreliable by foot if they have to field kick. (Jack used to be decent but he has fallen away this year) And if its a shot at goal Charlie is the only one you can 'just' rely on - the others and it literally could go anywhere.
And midfield wise Cerra, Cripps, Kennedy, Acres and Hewitt are also IMO average at best by foot with Walsh being the only one I think you can genuinely rely on consistently hit a target under pressure.
Compare that to the top teams where they have good users on each line and we are miles behind and this factor decides games most weeks.
Is it training that is sub par at our club or just in the players DNA.... I dont know?
Doc suggested that they rectified issues from the Adelaide game and there was alot he felt they did right. He felt ball use was what cost them the game.
That was my exact thoughts also on the St Kilda game. Ball use and decision making was crap.
My concern is why is it crap? I think our players are simply not as skilled as the better teams. Look at our forwards in particular Harry, Charlie, Fisher, Jack, are all unreliable by foot if they have to field kick. (Jack used to be decent but he has fallen away this year) And if its a shot at goal Charlie is the only one you can 'just' rely on - the others and it literally could go anywhere.
And midfield wise Cerra, Cripps, Kennedy, Acres and Hewitt are also IMO average at best by foot with Walsh being the only one I think you can genuinely rely on consistently hit a target under pressure.
Compare that to the top teams where they have good users on each line and we are miles behind and this factor decides games most weeks.
Is it training that is sub par at our club or just in the players DNA.... I dont know?
- Charlie is the best kick (field and goal kicking) at the club by a long way so I disagree with you on this. I trust him implicitly when he has the ball in his hand. He is a straight, long, penetrating kick.
- Harry has always been a bad kick, unless he does the around the corner kick he is terrible in front of goal. I would love to know his % of goals from drop punts versus the around the corner method. I would suggest it would be very highly weighted towards the snap. For me its between the ears.
- Jack is just terrible in front of goal, has been for a while. Field kicking he isn't too bad, I watched him practice and warm up having shots at goal at the Geelong game. I didn't see him put one through, not one and he had plenty of goes.
- Fisher I have commented to death, shouldn't be in the side (from an outsiders point of view).
- The mids maybe with the exception of Cerra are "off" with their disposal ATM, they are normally pretty good I feel especially George. I have mentioned that Cripps is 0-7 in front of goal this year, he had 10 goals at the same time last year and finished with 20 for the year.
I'm really hoping its a bit of a form slump with a lot of the players, its amazing what a couple of wins will do for the confidence of the group. It can turn quickly and you can get a roll as winning and confidence becomes infectious (just like poor disposal on the weekend).
We shall see.
I was talking with a Collingwood supporter today. H e was quite happy to point out our shortcomings.
In passing he said that Harry reminded him of Anthony Rocca, and he finished by saying " he'll do your head in by the time he's finished".
Reluctantly I have to agree with him.
I was talking with a Collingwood supporter today. H e was quite happy to point out our shortcomings.
In passing he said that Harry reminded him of Anthony Rocca, and he finished by saying " he'll do your head in by the time he's finished".
Reluctantly I have to agree with him.
Anthony Rocca was a decent kick for goal and would take that side of his game over Harry. At least he had the balls trust himself and would follow a routine whether it was accurate was another thing. Could roost them from 65 as well.
Our guy looks like he doesn’t want the ball unless it’s close in and on his preferred side. Not ideal when your main job is to finish off the play and score.
Harry reminds me more of Joe Daniher. Could be anything, yet too confidence affected imo and can be hard to rely on esp if he sprays the first few early on in a game.
@GI2C Harry's conversion of drop punts is likely higher IMHO.
He uses them so rarely he probably converts 2 in 3. It's the banana and round the corner kick he is stuffing up lately.
Anthony Rocca was a decent kick for goal and would take that side of his game over Harry.
Anthony Rocca was the Filth's version of Casboult, he kicked for goal at 44% but that is only because complete misses and OTFL doesn't form part of the stats. Sav Rocca was the great kick not Anthony.
Currently Harry kicks at 43%, in 2022 he kicked at 59% which is about as good as it gets!
All I have to say on H - it is virtually impossible to find a KPF that constantly gets into positions to impact the scoreboard.
Yeah he will miss some shots bt providing he gets into positions to impact the scoreboard he is doing what majority of KPF in the competition can't do and thats getting into scoring positions.
H is one of the best in that regard.
After kicking 12 straight in the Millenium game, Fev kicked more points than goals in 2000 and only just scored more goals than points in 2001 and 2002. But then he turned into a dead-eyed dick converting 2/3rds of his shots.
Earl Spalding couldn’t buy a goal when he started at Carlton but made some adjustments and became a very reliable shot at goal.
All I have to say on H - it is virtually impossible to find a KPF that constantly gets into positions to impact the scoreboard.
Yeah he will miss some shots bt providing he gets into positions to impact the scoreboard he is doing what majority of KPF in the competition can't do and thats getting into scoring positions.
H is one of the best in that regard.
Yeah but when he gets the ball he just needs to slow down and think the play through.
He needs to learn to play to his strengths and abilities, turning and playing on and thinking on the run is not one of them.
It’s clearly headspace for H.
For mine he’s still going the snap from too far out at times.
Hi work upfield this year has been great and game saving, just needs to continue to work on his kicking drills.
It’s clearly headspace for H.
For mine he’s still going the snap from too far out at times.
Hi work upfield this year has been great and game saving, just needs to continue to work on his kicking drills.
Good points and agree. Prob is issues between the ears can be the hardest to solve.
Yeah but when he gets the ball he just needs to slow down and think the play through.
He needs to learn to play to his strengths and abilities, turning and playing on and thinking on the run is not one of them.
To me this is a symptom of a different problem.
When he takes his time pressure builds and you end up with even worse execution.
Let him play on instinct. I suspect that he has the yips because he cost us against Richmond and also may have cost us against St. Kilda.
A player like Harry needs to be told. If you aren't hitting the scoreboard rather than try to hit it, simply share it to someone who is in a better position to do so or keep taking the responsibility as you see fit. Ease the pressure not mount it. It makes it worse.
Problem is that when Harry thinks, he shouldn't, and when he doesn't think, he should.
We can all probably wear that hat dodge
Problem is that when Harry thinks, he shouldn't, and when he doesn't think, he should.
H probably needs a really simple equation. Further out than, say, 25 metres... drop punt every time regardless of angles. Within 25, whichever seems best, take the time to decide then commit to it. It's the 'caught in two minds' which probably stuffs him up.
The only guy who could coach him still plays for Richmond.
H at 25 is still young - entered beast mode early at 23 - has another 10 years in front of him. He is just a very tall bloke and drop of ball is a fair distance from his hands to feet. He will continue to work on it but it isnt easy for him.
Fans want some constraints placed on BigH based on their past experiences and observations, but I can't ever recall seeing a bloke from any team who is capable of kicking bananas from outside 50m before, so it's all new!
Let him be, let him perfect his art the best he can and show us what he can do, we might be pleasantly surprised!
Fans want some constraints placed on BigH based on their past experiences and observations, but I can't ever recall seeing a bloke from any team who is capable of kicking bananas from outside 50m before, so it's all new!
Let him be, let him perfect his art the best he can and show us what he can do, we might be pleasantly surprised!
I dont want him becoming the next Joe Daniher and losing us a final and imho he needs to fix his problems now while he still young. Dont expect him to be 90% plus accurate just kick the regulation ones he should kick like Charlie does....
I dont want him becoming the next Joe Daniher and losing us a final and imho he needs to fix his problems now while he still young. Dont expect him to be 90% plus accurate just kick the regulation ones he should kick like Charlie does....
Agreed, but I'm not sure Charlie is the best example.
Charlie missed a pudding from about 25m out just last weekend, and another that probably should be 60/40. From the difficulty of the shots he probably should have kicked 4-2 or 5-1 rather than 3-3.
But he'll have a good one soon and kick 5 or 6 straight, this is the way it goes!
FWIW SoJ kicked 2-3, and probably should have kicked 3-2, the shot on the boundary was a bit tough to expect a result.
If I recall we also had a couple of shots from around 50m or just inside 50m that either failed to score or were rushed. Also wasn't there one I recall that was touched because we left an Aints defender unattended on the goal line, and one at their end should have been touched except we didn't have a tall on the goal line and went over a small hand for a goal.
These little things add up, we can probably see 4 or 5 goals difference in there without changing a thing!
Agreed, but I'm not sure Charlie is the best example.
Charlie missed a pudding from about 25m out just last weekend, and another that probably should be 60/40. From the difficulty of the shots he probably should have kicked 4-2 or 5-1 rather than 3-3.
But he'll have a good one soon and kick 5 or 6 straight, this is the way it goes!
FWIW SoJ kicked 2-3, and probably should have kicked 3-2, the shot on the boundary was a bit tough to expect a result.
If I recall we also had a couple of shots from around 50m or just inside 50m that either failed to score or were rushed. Also wasn't there one I recall that was touched because we left an Aints defender unattended on the goal line, and one at their end should have been touched except we didn't have a tall on the goal line and went over a small hand for a goal.
These little things add up, we can probably see 4 or 5 goals difference in there without changing a thing!
JSOS is another who needs to smarten up his kicking for goal and should be under the same spotlight as Harry.
Fans want some constraints placed on BigH based on their past experiences and observations, but I can't ever recall seeing a bloke from any team who is capable of kicking bananas from outside 50m before, so it's all new!
Let him be, let him perfect his art the best he can and show us what he can do, we might be pleasantly surprised!
Harry won't kick a snap from outside 50. His limit is in the 40-45m range depending on wind/stadium (further is for inside Marvel vs MCG).
People keep complaining about Harry and his snaps. Last year (or the year prior....or both) his accuracy for snaps was higher than his accuracy for standard drop punts. So its more about perception than reality.
I think its the snaps that go in the opposite direction that get noticed more than a drop punt that misses. End result for both is a miss. But the snap gets more attention because it missed by more.