Carlton Supporters Club

Apparently we wanted this one at the MCG. But we don't get much say on anything.

That last 6 minutes was disgraceful. As weak as absolute piss. To me that is worse than the first half as the game was there to be won and they didn't fight.

3 goals in 5 kicks when goals were tough to get all night. FMD!

Carlton Football Club
1m
 
A spirited fightback falls short in the final five.

This is how the club's facebook page described it ::)
Seriously.
We were blitzed in the final five.

That last 6 minutes was disgraceful. As weak as absolute piss. To me that is worse than the first half as the game was there to be won and they didn't fight.

3 goals in 5 kicks when goals were tough to get all night. FMD!

Have to agree, really thought we would win that rather than get run over after we had changed momentum but like I said during the game its going to take more than one win or a loss to change my mind on how we are travelling.
The talent is there but this fluctuation in effort leading to a drop off in skills is something I cant get my head around.

Where were they in the first half?

This is how the club's facebook page described it ::)
Seriously.
We were blitzed in the final five.

I was way more pissed off with the last 5 minutes than anything in the first half.

F50 entries/pressure and kicking for goal just not good enough. Not taking opportunities and no scoreboard pressure  just shatters confidence. Last 5 mins we just gave it up.

Can't wait for Trade Week.

Seems much the same as the last few weeks, plenty of possession, good defence, good numbers of F50 entries, poor ball use and poor kicking for goal.

But at least the crowd hung around for the 4th qtr.

F50 entries/pressure and kicking for goal just not good enough. Not taking opportunities and no scoreboard pressure  just shatters confidence. Last 5 mins we just gave it up.

Its like we thought it was just going to happen and stopped with the effort and desperation which had got us back into the game.
Really a very odd last 5 minutes in terms of attitude from our blokes, must be doing the coaches head in.

Can't wait for Trade Week.

We waited for that for years. Done nothing. They get indoctrinated with the same poor attitude when they come to us. Until this club wants it badly enough nothing with happen. That's just our culture.

Pretty much as expected including that late surge when they dangled the carrot to the long suffering masochists of the CFC. I have finally accepted that I will most probably not see a Carlton premiership for the remainder of my lifetime. I'd like to apologise to my son who I forced the navy blue on at birth. Dogs are seriously not that good. They will not be a factor at the pointy end and yet they beat us because we are a shell of a team.
P.S. Another masterstroke by the MC. Ed Curnow was a masterpiece as the sub. Hard to believe that these blokes get PAID to make these calls.

Small forwards still a massive problem and lost us the game again. So many inside 50s and cant lock the ball in. Too young and not good enough. Owies an exception and did well.
Depending on two forwards out of six is bad business. Unfortunately other than Martin there is no one else to bring into the team.

Acres disposal is costly
I couldn't recall him hitting a target all night
17 disposals at 47.1%
I'm surprised it was that good

the sad thing is he wasn't our worst in that respect. :(

Special mention to Cottrell in his first game for the season.
He'll be an asset.

Have to agree, really thought we would win that rather than get run over after we had changed momentum but like I said during the game its going to take more than one win or a loss to change my mind on how we are travelling.
The talent is there but this fluctuation in effort leading to a drop off in skills is something I cant get my head around.

Ditto.
Injuries no longer an excuse. Talent is there. Record sucked in members signed on. Um.... why are we so crap.

We've played one decent game v a WAFL side. That's it. At this rate we'll have a top 5 pick. Problem is that our so called rebuild core of stars will be past it.

The Dogs targetted Kennedy tonight, they made sure he was tackled every time he gained possession and he was unable to dispose of it, gave away three free kicks in the last because of it.

The Dogs targetted Kennedy tonight, they made sure he was tackled every time he gained possession and he was unable to dispose of it, gave away three free kicks in the last because of it.

Sounds like a strategic coaching intervention. We can't even coach holding on a late lead. Although apparently it was a ps focus.

@Lods

Agree re Cottrell. He is a definite asset.

Sounds like a strategic coaching intervention. We can't even coach holding on a late lead. Although apparently it was a ps focus.

I think the Dogs coaching panel identified a weakness and exploited it to the max.

Acres disposal is costly
I couldn't recall him hitting a target all night
17 disposals at 47.1%
I'm surprised it was that good

the sad thing is he wasn't our worst in that respect. :(

Special mention to Cottrell in his first game for the season.
He'll be an asset.

He couldn't hit the side of a barn with a piece of wheat from one metre away, he's woeful !!!

Small forwards still a massive problem and lost us the game again. So many inside 50s and cant lock the ball in. Too young and not good enough. Owies an exception and did well.
Depending on two forwards out of six is bad business. Unfortunately other than Martin there is no one else to bring into the team.

Martin was getting beaten in the 2s by the U18s - put a line through him. He’s a joke

We’re going to have to trade out of this mess
Pay players to play for other clubs to rebuild the list

We’re going to have to trade out of this mess
Pay players to play for other clubs to rebuild the list

Does nothing. Traded in good players before. We trade in decent players then they indoctrinated into our culture. If alot of our side was playing for other clubs they'd likely be guns. Issue is us.

We rebuilt a whole side but the attitude is still the same.

Martin was getting beaten in the 2s by the U18s - put a line through him. He’s a joke

Yep  he's cooked.
No idea what we are going to do with that small forward line but the guys that get paid the big bucks need to find a solution because the 7-8 AA elite talent is going to to waste and can't play the long game with some players while they are at their peak. Perform or out.

We’re going to have to trade out of this mess
Pay players to play for other clubs to rebuild the list

Maybe this is our Collingwood moment to trade out overpaid stars to quickly trade in some key talent. What would West Coast give for Cripps and North for Mackay?

I think the Dogs coaching panel identified a weakness and exploited it to the max.

Notice the pattern?
Crows, saints, Lions.....

He couldn't hit the side of a barn with a piece of wheat from one metre away, he's woeful !!!

What game were you watching? Too busy working on your scorched earth policy and compiling your sacking list? Negative or what?

I think the Dogs coaching panel identified a weakness and exploited it to the max.

That's coaching 101 I believe 🙄

The dark Lord's blunt assessments may not be popular but he's right - we're wasting about 15 list spots on blokes that simply don't deserve to be there.  They've had more than enough chances.  Martin is a prime example - and whoever extended his contract should be sacked as well.  No more excuses.  I note that two of our hardest goers (Cottrell and Owies) came through the rookie list. A list designed to develop players not park finished players like Ed. 

The first half was one of the worst displays of football in perfect conditions, I’ve seen in my nearly 50 years.

I get Power has to put on a front but seeing snd hearing him interviewed at half time and he said they were happy with our game and we were playing well except for the scoreboard - 1.4.10 at half time, under the roof in a perfectly fine night at Marvel, was disgusting.

I feel so foolish, I upped our membership as I assumed we’d play finals this year and wanted the best we could afford. I wanted to leave at half time.

Watching this team play is so unenjoyable I’m losing my love of footy. How can we possibly have 2 Coleman medallist, a Brownlow medallist and AA players, and serve up that absolute tripe? I don’t understand what’s happened.

And if I have to watch McG miskick under zero pressure one more time, I’ll scream.

Only highlight (besides Owies understanding that footy is about kicking goals!) is Fev behind up on level 2 and being a great sport, getting into the game and the Carlton chants. He took numerous photos with people lining up and if only he could go teach H how to fking kick!

That Brownlow medallist is becoming a  massive problem.  His inability to defend is killing us.

I know it's natural to point the finger at this point. I can honestly say I'm baffled. I have no idea what we're doing or who we are any more.

I realise our list has a couple of pieces missing but in all honesty I can't see a way out atm. Unfortunately, we're running out of time to get points on the board. It's been really telling seeing teams like the Crows and Pies to a lesser extent, improve like they have. Meanwhile we have gone backwards IMO. We're terribly out of form.

As difficult as it is to muster hope, I'll take a deep breath and hope this looks brighter tomorrow.

Only highlight (besides Owies understanding that footy is about kicking goals!) is Fev behind up on level 2 and being a great sport, getting into the game and the Carlton chants. He took numerous photos with people lining up and if only he could go teach H how to fking kick!

Evidently H declined Fevs offer to lend a hand 🙄

That Brownlow medallist is becoming a  massive problem.  His inability to defend is killing us.

It isn't that he doesn't chase ad tackle; he has a lot of tackles this year. But his possessions are not getting to Carlton players. And he is another whose kicking for goal has dropped off markedly. The way he is held before the ball gets near is amazing; he should have more frees than anyone else in the comp, but he just doesn't get them.

Another year where we are built up only to shown up.

The club has broken me. I refuse to attend any game live and now watch without much emotion at all.

Even when we had a talent less list I still cared and felt the pain of a loss. Today after too many years of lies Im now immune to losing and no longer care. Sick of waiting and have realised after 10 plus years of being a laughing stock we have amounted to at best a middle of the road team.

Time to call it as it guys the rebuild is over and it failed. Thing is where to from here. I have no idea.

Watching Harry, cripps, Jack, Motlop all horribly spray gettable goals kicking set shots around their body or with their non preferred foot confirmed we are unprofessional and as amateurish as any club in the comp.  How the f*ck does Harry go from a Coleman medalist 1 year ago to an absolute idiot
when having any set shot. The bloke has lost all confidence and had no fling idea what to do. It’s an inditement on the club how far he has fallen.
To think after 8 hard long years this is where we are at is quite depressing to be honest.
Amazing to think it appears we need a broom through the club from the president down.

Isn't it time the club had the gumption to tell Big H that it can no longer indulge him in his fantasy that he is a forward?

Perhaps his brother is the smarter of the two, realised his limitations years ago, and opted for a position on the backline.

Maybe we could swap Big H and McGovern, as McGovern could do no worse on the forward line.

It was like they showed us for 5 mins what they could do just to tempt and tease us……
Then no your 23 year cycle of sub par mediocrity is to continue and after another brief taste of what it’s like to have that love of club and football it’s gone and life goes back to a grind of not wanting people to ask who you barrack for as your almost embarrassed. Back to copping crap at work, not wanting to read the paper or watch the sports report.
Worse of all watching your grandkids in another clubs jumper when you are a third generation Blues supporter 
Passion for the fight has gone it seems from the players and me

The way he is held before the ball gets near is amazing; he should have more frees than anyone else in the comp, but he just doesn't get them.

I hope we are asking the AFL why, and in a very public way?

If we don't make an issue of this, in the media chat and talkback, do not expect anybody else to, and our club seems mostly silent on it. A mate of mine thinks we are deliberately quiet because we are at a disadvantage if the AFL crack down of holding, because most of our blokes are second to the ball.

AFL media stirring the pot as usual, we have to expect it.

Voss spent the bulk of his media conference telling the reporters about the shortfalls, managing emotions and the need to get better, the media use "Voss Proud" as a headline!

If you see headline rubbish like this, do not click on it because refusing the clickbait is the only way it stops!

I went along last night, sat behind the goals on level 2. I dont know what I watched from us TBH. Forget about first half versus second half, just in general my observations were as follows.
From them, I saw hard running up and down the ground especially numbers to their D50 to create a contest at every entry. They set up players on along the centre square line to block our kick in to the corridor from the wings. They were dynamite at getting  the ball out to space from congestion with 2 or 3 quick handballs to runners going passed. The seemed to know exactly what do, it looked like set play after set play from my vantage point.

Us?
The Bad: Kicks from FB are substandard. Our transition from def to fwd is predictable, kick to the wings and run it along the boundary line. We are forced (or just do it through sheer stupidity) to kick to 2 on 1s or even 3 on 1s far too often. Our def was very ordinary last night, sloppy at best. Poor old Weiters looks cooked ATM, at one stage he and Newmy were flat out arguing in front of us. We were constantly having to stop, prop have a look, and ultimately. The efforts int front of goal from H, Motlop and Cripps were embarrassing.
The guys seem to have no confidence at the minute, to a man they seem scared to take a risk with a kick which could be turned over.
The Good:
Not many, I thought Kennedy was excellent all night. Pitto tried very hard against English but struggles around the ground.
Apart from Owies who just goes back, owns it and slots it and Charlie when he got going, our fwd play was as woeful as our defence. I'd hate to think what type of night we would have had without Owies.

I didn't expect to win and we didn't, that's about it, onto Coll who strangely now, I think we can beat on the MCG.

I went along last night, sat behind the goals on level 2. I dont know what I watched from us TBH. Forget about first half versus second half, just in general my observations were as follows.
From them, I saw hard running up and down the ground especially numbers to their D50 to create a contest at every entry. They set up players on along the centre square line to block our kick in to the corridor from the wings. They were dynamite at getting  the ball out to space from congestion with 2 or 3 quick handballs to runners going passed. The seemed to know exactly what do, it looked like set play after set play from my vantage point.

Us?
The Bad: Kicks from FB are substandard. Our transition from def to fwd is predictable, kick to the wings and run it along the boundary line. We are forced (or just do it through sheer stupidity) to kick to 2 on 1s or even 3 on 1s far too often. Our def was very ordinary last night, sloppy at best. Poor old Weiters looks cooked ATM, at one stage he and Newmy were flat out arguing in front of us. We were constantly having to stop, prop have a look, and ultimately. The efforts int front of goal from H, Motlop and Cripps were embarrassing.
The guys seem to have no confidence at the minute, to a man they seem scared to take a risk with a kick which could be turned over.
The Good:
Not many, I thought Kennedy was excellent all night. Pitto tried very hard against English but struggles around the ground.
Apart from Owies who just goes back, owns it and slots it and Charlie when he got going, our fwd play was as woeful as our defence. I'd hate to think what type of night we would have had without Owies.

I didn't expect to win and we didn't, that's about it, onto Coll who strangely now, I think we can beat on the MCG.

cottrell and hollands were good.

Jack and mcgovern both put in a shift too.

Owies was clearly one of our better players and its an indictment on his teamates that a former basketballer is the best set shot at the club.

Charlie was decent but has better in him.

For mine the coaching isn't the issue.  Had we converted just 2 of our early set shots all of which were gettable the whole game changes.

You have given the bulldogs way too much credit.  They spent two quarters navel gazing and both sides were just going last night.  They didn't start working until they fell behind last night. 

Another Jekyll and Hyde performance. Some good work and some ah ya ya. Interesting that it seemed to be a night for the no name players. Most of the stars did little. I thought Saad and Young were ok. Walsh was his usual industrious and hard working self. Charlie Curnow has a bit of the Nick Riewoldt form factor last night - good game I thought.

Why don’t our players man up? What is the point of standing between two opposition players?

I've thought about it.  The more this goes on the more I think our players are in poor condition and our pre season must have been rubbish.  Why that is could be anyone's guess but hollands, a first year player is showing more nous and ability than guys in the system for 4 years plus.

Cotters for all his vaunted running power and fitness has had a massive spell and yet looked in better nick than most of them.  This equation is one that is simple enough to gauge.

Our strength and conditioning is off which has led to more and more lack of belief and more execution problems.

Our game management suggests the same.  We are stopping and slowing the game down as much as possible to get numbers up the park.  That's a sign of a team who isn't capable of running a game out and is only willing to take the game on when they have to.

It's simplistic to say the coach has no idea or we are easy to play against.

Our set shot kicking is deplorable too.  Another sign the players are not in prime condition.

Worst thing is that we tend to get worse not better in this regard and our formline is actually getting eorse not better.

Why don’t our players man up? What is the point of standing between two opposition players?

manning up is a 90s style perspective on football.

If you man up you chase a player that breaks your structure and allows quick transition play whilst players aimlessly follow guys around the park and get pulled out of shape.

It also isolates men one on one in certain areas of the ground and usually results in players like the bont getting one on ones against guys that have no chance of beating him in a contest.

Going man on man is very simple and I don't think a team has won a flag doing it without having the best players in the competition since the turn of the century.

Our players look as lost as they did playing for Bolton. The criticism back then was the game plan was too complicated.  Our guys must just be dumb.

Sounds likes you want to point the finger at the S&C crew ...  Didn't you get the memo, they're beyond reproach?

It isn't that he doesn't chase ad tackle; he has a lot of tackles this year. But his possessions are not getting to Carlton players. And he is another whose kicking for goal has dropped off markedly. The way he is held before the ball gets near is amazing; he should have more frees than anyone else in the comp, but he just doesn't get them.

I mentioned before that Acres's disposal was poor (47%)

I also mentioned that sadly it wasn't the worst.
Both Cripps (42%) and Weitering (46%) were poorer.
I cut them a bit more slack than Acres because of the attention Cripps gets, and the fact that a lot of Weitering's kicks were hacks out of defence under pressure.
But still poor and costly.

On the small forwards... if you could take the best bits of Motlop, Durdin and Owies and combine them into one player we'd have a super small forward.
But they take up three places, not one, and I'm not sure we benefit with all three playing at the same time.

The ease of which we allow it out of our forward half is embarrassing.

You must contest every play. Yet we do not. When Jesse ran down a player just out of our f50, we got the turn over.

I agree with ^ re conditioning. maybe that is the problem. Altho Dogs looked gassed end of 3rd quarter, but were able to get it done.

Who knows. So bloody annoying, after last year I think i and many others thought we were just a small step from finals. We are not.

We will get annihilated next week, I’m glad somethings come up and we can’t go. Last night was putrid in the first half and the last quarter. Not enjoyable one bit.

What did Voss say in the presser? I have no energy to watch…!

What game were you watching? Too busy working on your scorched earth policy and compiling your sacking list? Negative or what?

Not negative, just honest !!

Acres' kicking last night was appalling, did you not see him kick it behind our player or directly to an opposition player ?

That's coaching 101 I believe 🙄

So why didn't our coach employ the same 101 principle and address the issue in-match ??

We managed to hit the lead near the end with most of our stars having contributed bugger all (apart from Charlie Curnow and Walsh). It was a game built on the effort of the lesser lights, so some definite cause for optimism IMO. Whatever issues (legit or otherwise) resulted in his omission, Tom De Koning would have been a better match up for English. At least athletically and endurance wise, he would've kept up.

Evidently H declined Fevs offer to lend a hand 🙄

Three of our players took set shots for goal and did the kick across the body thing, they didn't even score. 

The way he is held before the ball gets near is amazing; he should have more frees than anyone else in the comp, but he just doesn't get them.

It’s ridiculous. You give away a free in a marking contest if you take your eyes off the ball. Same in a ruck contest. Cripps’ opponents face him, eyeball him, have an arm around him BEFORE the set play begins.

He’s one of the toughest and fairest going around but doesn’t ‘milk it’ or remonstrate enough. Umps clearly think he’s a decent fellow.
Voss needs to get in front of the cameras and microphones and go absolutely ballistic. Screw any possible fines.

McKay & Curnow contributed 2.5 between them last nite.

So I can’t work out - are Dogs a good side?  because they didn’t blow us out of the water when we were abysmal In the first half. 🤷🏻‍♀️

And imo we let them cut loose in the last 5 mins of the game.

So I can’t work out - are Dogs a good side?  because they didn’t blow us out of the water when we were abysmal In the first half. 🤷🏻‍♀️

And imo we let them cut loose in the last 5 mins of the game.

Dogs are like us just making up the numbers.

Why don’t our players man up? What is the point of standing between two opposition players?

One of my major gripes with this team is they just don't defend a man at times when they have too.
There is no excuses, you want to play loose and chase kicks then don't whinge when the ball finds your man on the way back...
Cripps let Libba run forward unchecked last quarter and wouldn't chase and Saad was nowhere Scott all day for example.
Get on your fecking man and do your job, I don't care about your possession stats or that your man is a no name like Scott.

Dogs are like us just making up the numbers.

I suspect for now that’s probably true.

So I can’t work out - are Dogs a good side?  because they didn’t blow us out of the water when we were abysmal In the first half. 🤷🏻‍♀️

And imo we let them cut loose in the last 5 mins of the game.

One of the things that really Sh*t me about some of the commentators and the Carlton pile-on at the moment is this...

They crap on about how terrible we are, and we're in deep trouble...and then in the next breath they're raving about the opposition.

The Blues were awful but Brisbane were very good!
The Blues were awful but the Bulldogs were very good!

Both those  opposition sides were under pressure in  late stages of their games against us.
You can't have it both ways.
If Brisbane and the Bulldogs were very good, yet challenged at worst that makes us OK or average.

In reality last night 'we were' awful...and that makes the bulldogs only marginally better.
Better forward structure and better execution further afield.

My biggest concern is regarding how mentally weak a number of our players are. They lack fight & grit when it is most needed and this has a habit of spreading across the remainder of the team.

When things aren't going well, we just seem to "go through the motions" and when it is a particular player's turn to really deliver (e.g. kick that important goal or make that desperate chase & tackle), we just don't do it. We lose momentum, we lose fait and we lose belief.

If our players ran on the field with the same attitude and gusto that Voss & Power played with, we would be winning way more than we are losing.

My biggest concern is regarding how mentally weak a number of our players are. They lack fight & grit when it is most needed and this has a habit of spreading across the remainder of the team.

When things aren't going well, we just seem to "go through the motions" and when it is a particular player's turn to really deliver (e.g. kick that important goal or make that desperate chase & tackle), we just don't do it. We lose momentum, we lose fait and we lose belief.

If our players ran on the field with the same attitude and gusto that Voss & Power played with, we would be winning way more than we are losing.

Yes, when we clawed our way in front, they really needed to get ugly and fight/scrap their way to victory. Instead, they wanted to keep shooting it out with them. I get it, they wanted to win it, but all of a sudden it became a close game and went into hero mode. They had to make it uglier than it already was. Thats between the ears.

Three of our players took set shots for goal and did the kick across the body thing, they didn't even score. 

Cripps on his left foot from a 45 degree angle? I know he won the Brownlow but he's not Gary Ablett.

I think in the scheme of things we are doing okay. Some problems in the forward half as I think defensive game is very solid.
Forward of centre is a bit of a mess and depending on Charlie and Harry every game is not good.
We need to find a Breust, Rioli and Puopolo combination. This mix isn't working - Owies, Cunners and Martin would be my best small forward mix - if Cunners and Martin can't get on the park every game after the bye then we need to find players that can.

manning up is a 90s style perspective on football.

If you man up you chase a player that breaks your structure and allows quick transition play whilst players aimlessly follow guys around the park and get pulled out of shape.

It also isolates men one on one in certain areas of the ground and usually results in players like the bont getting one on ones against guys that have no chance of beating him in a contest.

Going man on man is very simple and I don't think a team has won a flag doing it without having the best players in the competition since the turn of the century.

Our players look as lost as they did playing for Bolton. The criticism back then was the game plan was too complicated.  Our guys must just be dumb.

That excuses for lazy football, the modern game doesn't excuse you to not to do the basics when the game is tight.
You let the opposition main drivers run around unopposed then don't complain when they take over and you lose because eventually momentum swings and if you have haven't taken your chances they will.

I think in the scheme of things we are doing okay. Some problems in the forward half as I think defensive game is very solid.
Forward of centre is a bit of a mess and depending on Charlie and Harry every game is not good.
We need to find a Breust, Rioli and Puopolo combination. This mix isn't working - Owies, Cunners and Martin would be my best small forward mix - if Cunners and Martin can't get on the park every game after the bye then we need to find players that can.

Dunno about defensive game being solid. Young was ok, Saad made a howler costing that goal, but admittedly redeemed himself. We are shaky and simply struggle to get it out. I was real close to the ground (bottom of leave 2 behind the goals) and as a group, they looked lost at times.

manning up is a 90s style perspective on football.

If you man up you chase a player that breaks your structure and allows quick transition play whilst players aimlessly follow guys around the park and get pulled out of shape.

It also isolates men one on one in certain areas of the ground and usually results in players like the bont getting one on ones against guys that have no chance of beating him in a contest.

Going man on man is very simple and I don't think a team has won a flag doing it without having the best players in the competition since the turn of the century.

Our players look as lost as they did playing for Bolton. The criticism back then was the game plan was too complicated.  Our guys must just be dumb.

I will say this, our guys simply don't put enough pressure on the ball carrier and that has to be by instruction/design. Teams are doing it to us and we simply refuse to reciprocate.

Dunno about defensive game being solid. Young was ok, Saad made a howler costing that goal, but admittedly redeemed himself. We are shaky and simply struggle to get it out. I was real close to the ground (bottom of leave 2 behind the goals) and as a group, they looked lost at times.

Its not so much the mistakes  - they are going to happen and going to cost goals. Its choking the opponent in transition and being solid winning the ground balls. In the past teams used to stroll through our midfield and defences for easy goals. I think we are a tough team to score against as defensive transitioning is best part of our game right now.

Dunno about defensive game being solid. Young was ok, Saad made a howler costing that goal, but admittedly redeemed himself. We are shaky and simply struggle to get it out. I was real close to the ground (bottom of leave 2 behind the goals) and as a group, they looked lost at times.

Saad had three kicked on him....not good enough.

Saad had three kicked on him....not good enough.

Attacked a few hard and saved just as many

As someone said, coach this:

https://www.tiktok.com/@typemedia/video/7232643371687300354?_r=1&_t=8cIMMHFOtEu

29 inside 50s first half for one goal......is story of the tale for me.
Thats been a problem past few years actually.

Attacked a few hard and saved just as many

Main job is defend your man....Essendon asked him to defend and he got upset.
We can't carry too many kick chasers at the expense of defending your man...
You can't let Jaime Elliott on his own all game this week...

If Saad didn't cover for others we would have got done by 8 goals.

If Saad didn't cover for others we would have got done by 8 goals.

His howler was literally right in front of me. To be fair, he ran into the post and when he got up, he was telling teammates he thought he dragged it over the line. Felt sorry for him.

Again last night, I noticed something that may be a guide as to where we are at as a playing group. Bear in mind, it may just be a personal gripe from a cranky old man too.

When the Dogs needed a goal and one of their players kicked one, they didn't appear to "showboat"to the crowd instead preferring to instinctively get together as a group and patted the player on the head or on the back, they hugged and embraced and genuinely showed their pride & passion in the work that had been done. To me, it showed a genuine unity, it showed regardless of the circumstances, they are a team first & foremost.    

On the flipside, each time Owies kicked a goal, he ran towards the boundary and beat his chest to the fan base in a manner that to me, looked like he was saying "aren't I sh/t-hot" instead of the expected "come on lads, kick some butt" rev-up. Charlie did it a couple of times too, he generally does that sort of thing after a goal too.

I get what our players are doing but it still looks like we are disenfranchised and playing more as individuals.

And can we stop that low high-five crap too, it looks forced to me. A player does what he is expected to do (e.g. bundles the ball over the boundary whilst keeping an opposition player at bay) and two of our players make a point of running 15-20m to him to put the hand out and they slap palms - what a wank !!

I was way more pissed off with the last 5 minutes than anything in the first half.

I vote for Harry's cross-body shot at goal and Cripps' cross-body shot at goal with his left foot as the most 'piss-offable' moments.

The coaching staff needs to ban this BS.

What game were you watching? Too busy working on your scorched earth policy and compiling your sacking list? Negative or what?

Not negative, just honest !!
Acres' kicking last night was appalling, did you not see him kick it behind our player or directly to an opposition player ?

Pretty sure I read somewhere that Acres' 8 kicks had 0% efficiency. Overall he had 47.1% efficiency. Only Weitering and Cripps were worse

Walsh was his usual industrious and hard working self. 

Agreed but even his kicking has devolved and he adds to the turnover tally - maybe trying to thread the needle into too-small spaces.

If Saad didn't cover for others we would have got done by 8 goals.

I want him to stop his man kicking goals, if everyone does the basics we win.
I know Saad helps others but that's not working and we need other defenders to be accountable too.

Agreed but even his kicking has devolved and he adds to the turnover tally - maybe trying to thread the needle into too-small spaces.

Yep, you can argue that he is still rusty after a long lay off, or you can argue that he is trying to be a play maker, trying to make things happen, and is therefore going for the more difficult disposals. Either way, his good outweighs his bad by a considerable margin IMO.

Cornes just gave Walsh second BOG.

English led Pitto a merry dance around the ground and ran away from him several times to create a link.  Having said that, I thought Pitto was very, very good in the ruck contests (particularly boundary throw ins) because he played a couple of metres in front and blocked English's run - I was surprised that he didn't have a free kick paid against him.

Unless he was injured, I can't understand whey Kemp was omitted.  Apart from his recent performances, his presence freed up Young to play back-up ruck to good effect whereas Silvagni was way too small to offer the same contest.  Having said that, I thought Jack contested his heart out (when doesn't he) as a spoiler.  Also, surely Kemp would have offered much more as a sub than Ed.

On offsiders I don’t know the commentators name but he said Voss has over corrected and now has to rebalance - offensively we were great last year and trash now, he said to rebalance that and most other things are tracking ok.

I hope so. It’s been really pitiful watching the decline of what last year - at times - was off your seat exciting skilful impressive play!

Cornes just gave Walsh second BOG.

So did I, but that doesn't alter the fact that he has been turning the ball over and not hitting targets.  If he had, he might have been BOG and we might have won the game.

That Brownlow medallist is becoming a  massive problem.  His inability to defend is killing us.

I know I identified this post earlier, but there is more about Cripps that needs be said.
[1] His form is really down, and it isn't just because he gets scragged before he gets the ball (although that doesn't help). He tackles manly in the centre square, but he doesn't chase anyone down. I'd like to see a little more effort in that area, as teams realize they have him beaten for pace and steady. That doesn't help anyone.
[2] His disposal effectiveness is way down. He has kicked one goal this season. Mind you, he isn't alone there. Last year our mids would often spring up and score. This year, nada. But that big problem is that his efforts, no matter how herculean, are not being rewarded. I couldn't count the number of times he put his body on the line, for the possession to be affected by weight of numbers and for it to fall short of a team mate.
[3] He is not holding his marks. He is almost taking marks and not being rewarded by the Umpires, for guys hanging off him either. When he is at his best, he holds the marks and then makes something happen.

On offsiders I don’t know the commentators name but he said Voss has over corrected and now has to rebalance - offensively we were great last year and trash now, he said to rebalance that and most other things are tracking ok.

I hope so. It’s been really pitiful watching the decline of what last year - at times - was off your seat exciting skilful impressive play!

Last year we often dominated centre clearances and took advantage of the 6/6/6 rule.  This year, that has not been the case and our disposal efficiency (or lack thereof) has made it very difficult to find space for our forwards to contest one-on-one when we move the ball forward so slowly.

Again last night, I noticed something that may be a guide as to where we are at as a playing group. Bear in mind, it may just be a personal gripe from a cranky old man too.

When the Dogs needed a goal and one of their players kicked one, they didn't appear to "showboat"to the crowd instead preferring to instinctively get together as a group and patted the player on the head or on the back, they hugged and embraced and genuinely showed their pride & passion in the work that had been done. To me, it showed a genuine unity, it showed regardless of the circumstances, they are a team first & foremost.    

On the flipside, each time Owies kicked a goal, he ran towards the boundary and beat his chest to the fan base in a manner that to me, looked like he was saying "aren't I sh/t-hot" instead of the expected "come on lads, kick some butt" rev-up. Charlie did it a couple of times too, he generally does that sort of thing after a goal too.

I get what our players are doing but it still looks like we are disenfranchised and playing more as individuals.

And can we stop that low high-five crap too, it looks forced to me. A player does what he is expected to do (e.g. bundles the ball over the boundary whilst keeping an opposition player at bay) and two of our players make a point of running 15-20m to him to put the hand out and they slap palms - what a wank !!

I think your off the mark on couple of fronts, the bulldogs showboated after goals I can assure you, it was right in front of me, especially JUH the flog. As for Owies, it was also in front of me, he grabbed the jumper like it meant something to him and he as telling the Carlton faithfull on the fence as much. I loved that display from Owies, like SOS, the jumper means something to him, there was nothing "look at me" about it. He stood up last night, more than I can say about many others. I personally wont be criticising him for a long while, he belongs.

Its not so much the mistakes  - they are going to happen and going to cost goals. Its choking the opponent in transition and being solid winning the ground balls. In the past teams used to stroll through our midfield and defences for easy goals. I think we are a tough team to score against as defensive transitioning is best part of our game right now.

With respect Pinot, the mistakes were awful and amateurish, I get it you can't stop over fwd foray but FMD some of the crap I saw last night (again let me emphasise right in front of me and I was very close to the action) was terrible. Its the first time I have been able to use my seats at Marvel in two years and as much as I despise the joint, my seats are rippers. Behind the point post, row D of level 2. You can hear the players talk clearly.

I mentioned before that Acres's disposal was poor (47%)

I also mentioned that sadly it wasn't the worst.
Both Cripps (42%) and Weitering (46%) were poorer.
I cut them a bit more slack than Acres because of the attention Cripps gets, and the fact that a lot of Weitering's kicks were hacks out of defence under pressure.
But still poor and costly.

On the small forwards... if you could take the best bits of Motlop, Durdin and Owies and combine them into one player we'd have a super small forward.
But they take up three places, not one, and I'm not sure we benefit with all three playing at the same time.

Indeed, some damning data there.

[1] Blake Acres: He had a shocker last night, and his percentage was waayyy down. He has been good for us this year and I do think he is a reasonable pickup, but he didn't have the right matchup last night. I would have swung him forward for a while, as most of our small forwards don't have any marking power (the exception is Owies). Changing things up might have lifted his confidence.

[2] Jacob Weitering's disposal has been a problem this year. He is turning the ball over far too often for a guy whose kicking is normally pretty good.
To be honest, he is not looking at his best, even if he did destroy his opponent last night. But he isn't showing the steadiness he often brings.

[3] Our small forwards are a problem. Owies was great last night, but he is the only one who has some decent forward craft. He is also the one most likely to get a snap goal, but even he isn't getting many of these. Part of the problem is that we are usually going forward into a crowd. That would make it hard for any small forward.
But both Corey Durdin and Jesse Motlop are really cold at the moment. Neither offers anything in the air and their opponents are often among our opposition's best players. Jesse has a few moments of real magic, but they are few and far between. Corey is just struggling to get the ball.
I'd drop one or both, if there was anyone to be brought in: Jesse needs to work on his body strength and tank, both of which are poor. He also needs to work on getting in the right places, as he just doesn't. Corey needs a couple of good pre-seasons to build his tank up. He also needs to work on his positioning around the packs, as the opposition small defenders just run the ball out and get kicks at will.

[4] I was hoping that Ed Curnow could play as a defensive forward, but he seems to be struggling this year. He has played a couple of good games, mostly as a defensive mid, but he isn't having the impact he might have. He really struggled last night, when he came on as sub.
I think that Brodie Kemp might have been a better option.

[5] Who do we play as a small forward?
One of our options is Matthew Cottrell. He didn't run out the game as well as he usually does, a left over from his lack of preseason. But he runs hard, he has a real presence in the air, he chase hard and he can convert nicely. It would be good while he builds up his match fitness and we work on developing Durdin and Motlop (I'd be putting a LOT of kms into both of them and no small time in the gym).
I would also consider bring Alex Cincotta up the field. He didn't play that well last night, but he has a future. His kicking has depth and he runs hard.
I'd also consider playing Blake Acres up there if he is having a crappy night (as he didn't last night). His ability in the air would make him a lot more dangerous than our present options.
That said, I prefer to have him on the wing, but I do want options.

English led Pitto a merry dance around the ground and ran away from him several times to create a link.  Having said that, I thought Pitto was very, very good in the ruck contests (particularly boundary throw ins) because he played a couple of metres in front and blocked English's run - I was surprised that he didn't have a free kick paid against him.

Unless he was injured, I can't understand whey Kemp was omitted.  Apart from his recent performances, his presence freed up Young to play back-up ruck to good effect whereas Silvagni was way too small to offer the same contest.  Having said that, I thought Jack contested his heart out (when doesn't he) as a spoiler.  Also, surely Kemp would have offered much more as a sub than Ed.

I thought Pitto actually thrashed English last night, right up to the last few minutes. English tried hard to get a few kicks around the ground, but even there he wasn't as effective as he has been. I don't think he took a single pack mark, for example. (4 marks in total).
What was happening is that Pitto's taps have not been as effective, as the opposition have woken up to our style of midfield play. We need to start working on that, especially protecting our mids.

Jack played his best as a 2nd ruck for ages. He did better than I expected at the contest, as was MUCH better on the ground in the middle. He isn't a serious ruck option, not if we're going to improve, but he worked damned hard in there last night.

We are better when we play 2 rucks. That allows Pitto to get some decent rest while providing Tom de Koning, a totally different type of ruckman, who can get over people who are used to wrestling with Pitto. Tom actually can provide the marking option that Marc often can't. But that requires him to be in something approaching form. I'd consider bringing him in against Collingwood, as their ruck division is something we can exploit.

Last few weeks we are starting to panic, probably feeling the pressure, too many fans listening to the media argy bargy only makes things worse.

It's bigger problem for us than the opposition because as heart rates go up the intensity spikes and our ball use becomes poor, then our slower guys not only feel under the same pressure, but they waste energy trying to keep up with players they can't catch.

We've lost the game control we showed in the first few rounds, the opposition have learnt to use a berserka game style on us, keep the pace of play high, and our skills and game style go out the door.

Also, we have no nasty, we do very little to make opponents pay a price for taking space in front of BigH or Charlie, last night the Dogs basically ran just two conventional KPPs against us, English and Lobb, take them out and the Dogs game plan falls apart. The Dogs basically ran Lobb as a wing, something I've been asking for SoJ, TDK or even Charlie to have a crack at. It's clearly an area we've become poor in managing, and are wasting a lot of run and carry by having Charlie and BigH rotate up the field from inside F50.

Cripps basically gets bare rooted, opponents turn to face him, make front on contact, rip is jumper, hit him in the head, and he gets zero protection from the umpires. It's just bizarre!

At least the side had a go all night for a change. You can barrack for a side that has a go. Our skills and decision making were still appalling. The Bulldogs kicked four goals in the first half and two of them came from our mistakes. The umpires lost the plot in the last five to ten minutes in the third quarter. Took on the game more last night but still need to do it a lot more. The application by McKay, Motlop, Cripps and Walsh with their set shots on goal in the first half was disgraceful. Do the Carlton players practice kicking for goals and do the apply what they practice? You can't give sides five goals head start and expect to win. This is second week in a row in which we have kicked one goal in a half. So far this year we have had eight quarters where we have kicked two goals, five quarters where we have kicked one goal and three quarters where we have kicked no goals. We don't kick enough goals. Our disposal is laughable and our football IQ is lamentable.
I thought Owies was good, Silvagni and Pittonett did a number on Englsih, Newman is having a good year, Hollands did a number of really good things, The defensive unit was pretty good until the last five minutes but McGovern was off. They are very desperate down there but they tend to panic, and like the rest of team, their disposal gets them into trouble. If we could clean up their disposal coming out of the back half we have a lot less problems. The Bulldogs midfield were a lot better organized and probably shaded us on the night, especially with the finish of the game. Our players run hard but lack real pace through the middle and our game appears to rely on individual efforts.

Perplexed. Confused. But perhaps there is a method in all this madness/oddness.

The mixed messages coming out of the club require clarification with the members and supporters. We're not mugs, you know. And FFS get the players on the same page and only give a gig to those who are.

And we played the first half like a club mired in mixed messages, or messages too complex to comprehend and implement.

Benefit of the doubt: I wonder if there is a concerted effort to alter culture, which is painfully slow and the process is still confusing some and some just aren't up to it. But there seems to be a mentality to persist with this process until we get it right more often than not. We tend to finish years poorly, maybe we're focussed on turning that around and not start the season with all guns blazing? Hence a greater focus on building... whatever the cost - long view.

MC: Okay, clowns, time to ease in some better forward line footy IQ, and future talent. Corey Durdin needs serious Magoo time. Replacement? A couple I can think of. Ed should be the Skipper of the Magoos, no more senior footy. (Carroll/Binns/Kemp perhaps even Fogarty as well need senior footy exposure). Seeing as how finals are no longer a priority, get the best out of our future... now.

I hear the CEO thinks we're top heavy. Agree. But... 4 of our talls are out of form, either in the contest or disposal/shots on goal wise. Weiters and H chief among them: between the lugholes. TDK is out of the side and probably has a between the lugholes issue as well. And Young is lacking confidence: again, between the lugholes.

Acres: WTF... you're a senior player, your kicking disposal is a liability under pressure. Get with the program... more instinct, less thinking. Ditto, Crippa.

Authority: Too many of our blokes lack authority in their disposal. For an example of what to do, watch Cottrell and Owies... instinctual, quick decisions and extreme effort. Great example was Cottrell getting the aggott at HF and looking for the best option (no skies balls - kick and hope!), immediately passed to Owies (who makes very good position) - goal. These two blokes are both dangerous when they get the bag of air. Newman also has instinct and authority, as do Doc, Charles... even Cerra, Kennedy, McGovern, Walsh, Acres, Pitto, JSOS, Cincotta & Saad display boldness and authority with the way they go about it.

Leadership/Discipline: Weiters and Cripps concern me. Leadership is not only about trying to set an example, it's much more. We're seeing far more and better leadership from Doc, Newman, Walsh, Cottrell, JSOS and Owies. The goal should be to have a team of leaders... every player accepting and displaying commitment and ownership of their game and their vital part in the process, and sacrificing self if needed to help (demand from) others that very same commitment and ownership.

Effort can't be questioned but every possession and disposal should be valued and held as a premium... that will lead to efficiency, and that will feed confidence/scoreboard pressure.

could've would've should've

I wondered at end of 3rd quarter if we’d been saving energy to come home hard and maybe that was a tactic for kicking one goal in the first but. I don’t think so.

I hear the CEO thinks we're top heavy. Agree. But... 4 of our talls are out of form, either in the contest or disposal/shots on goal wise. 

Cook was talking about contracts and dollars, not player size.

I thought Pitto actually thrashed English last night,

I wrote this in the ruck thread.

===============================

Dribble. English is an AA ruckman this years. Our guy is a plodder. End of story.

Yep, English is the best Ruck in the comp. 
He will give Libba and Bont first use all night.

Pittonet vs English - STAT
83 - 85 - Ruck contests
48 - 30 - Hitouts
18 - 6 - Hitouts to advantage
22% - 7% - Ruck contest - hitout to advantage %

Pittonet was 3 times more likely to get the ball to a teammate from the ruck contest than 'AA' English that 'will give Libba and Bont first use all night'.

Pittonet also got 5 clearances to English 1.
He is dominating the ruck each week, and people still do not see it. He did all the above, and still only played 78% game time to English 86%
=============

We are better when we play 2 rucks. That allows Pitto to get some decent rest while providing Tom de Koning, a totally different type of ruckman, who can get over people who are used to wrestling with Pitto. Tom actually can provide the marking option that Marc often can't. But that requires him to be in something approaching form. I'd consider bringing him in against Collingwood, as their ruck division is something we can exploit.

Disagree.

Pittonet only played 78% game time last night. When TDK plays, he plays 50-60%.....as does TDK.
We play a 2nd ruck and we tie up a spot on the bench for over half a game. How much benefit do we get from that? Output wise, we actually get less from the ruck contests, because TDK can't deliver Pittonets numbers. So ruckwork wise, 2 rucks makes us worse.

Around the ground, TDK offers us more.....but is it really much more?
Averages this year, TDK offers us 0.8 more marks per game and 0.1 more contested marks per game.
That is, in 10 games of playing 2 rucks, we get 8 marks and 1 of them contested.

Now take TDK out of the picture and add in a midfielder. Will that midfielder offer the team more in 10 weeks than 8 marks and 1 contested? Absolutely.

The theory of 2 rucks makes sense.
The output of it suggests otherwise.

.....until we start seeing more output from TDK at least.

We win more games with TDK.

We win more games with TDK.

We don't win any when we wear orange.

Causation and correlation.

Time to play for the future because the current team are not good enough.

TDK and Kemp need to play.

Cook was talking about contracts and dollars, not player size.

Thank you for that clarification, Spotted One. But the scenario remains that we've 5 key talls, 4 of whom are not delivering what they should and for whatever reason.

I guess we'll see some culling of expensive non-hackers at year's end... and perhaps one or two good talls for draft/trade improvement.

Time to play for the future because the current team are not good enough.

TDK and Kemp need to play.

How old do you think Pittonet is?

Pittonet is 26, almost 27.
If we deem him 'too old' we lose everyone 26 or over, we lose over half our team from last night.....and a few others.

Kennedy
Owies
Charlie
Cincotta
Hewitt,
Acres
Cripps
McGovern
Saad
Docherty
Newman
Ed
along with Pittonet makes 13 from last night 23 players.

Also includes....
Cuningham
Marchbank
S. Durdin
Martin
Williams
Plowman

In total 19 players who are 'too old' at 26 or more.
Yeah, nah.

Get Harry away from goals for a couple of weeks.
Not permanently necessarily, but just enough to get a bit of confidence back, and take a bit off pressure of his goalkicking.
Tell him to play between the arcs...or a little futher out so he's not tempted.
Let him have a roving commission and take some of the ruck work.
He's not doing badly around the ground...but his kicking for goal is deflating and a momentum changer.

Get a few defensive players around the forward line to keep the ball in.
Kicks directed to Curnow will almost always result in him marking, or a spillage.

It's diabolical...it couldn't be more diabolical with a bit of a mix-up, some separation between the talls, and some defensive pressure.

Time to play for the future because the current team are not good enough.

TDK and Kemp need to play.

Many if not most of our blokes are coming into their prime and/or just beginning their best years. Ed is the exception.

could've would've should've

Didn’t!

It's just a small sample of work,VFL game and last night,  but something I've noticed about Cottrell that others are lacking is he seems to create that little bit of extra time before he lets the ball go.
One time last night he had a couple of options...Curnow and Owies. He looked and saw Curnow was covered or had slipped and sent the ball Owies' way

The funny thing about ladder position is that you can predict a number of wins that it will take to make finals.
I'm tipping at the moment, based on past trends,  that it will probably be around 14.
You'd safely guesstimate that 14 is beyond us.
But as it stands at the moment we're only half a game out.
And while it looks like a huge task, it's very much in the hands of the players...and we're still alive.

Many if not most of our blokes are coming into their prime and/or just beginning their best years. Ed is the exception.

Their prime and best is mediocre.

How old do you think Pittonet is?

Pittonet is 26, almost 27.
If we deem him 'too old' we lose everyone 26 or over, we lose over half our team from last night.....and a few others.

Kennedy
Owies
Charlie
Cincotta
Hewitt,
Acres
Cripps
McGovern
Saad
Docherty
Newman
Ed
along with Pittonet makes 13 from last night 23 players.

Also includes....
Cuningham
Marchbank
S. Durdin
Martin
Williams
Plowman

In total 19 players who are 'too old' at 26 or more.
Yeah, nah.

I said play TDK and Kemp. Didn't mention dropping Pittonet.

I said play TDK and Kemp. Didn't mention dropping Pittonet.

You've gotta drop someone.
Someone from that list.
If you are bringing in those 2 and NOT dropping Pittonet....who are you dropping?

I think your off the mark on couple of fronts, the bulldogs showboated after goals I can assure you, it was right in front of me, especially JUH the flog. As for Owies, it was also in front of me, he grabbed the jumper like it meant something to him and he as telling the Carlton faithfull on the fence as much. I loved that display from Owies, like SOS, the jumper means something to him, there was nothing "look at me" about it. He stood up last night, more than I can say about many others. I personally wont be criticising him for a long while, he belongs.

100% agree.  One of the few who flew the flag for mine.

It's a disgrace that he as a former basketball is the only one I'm confident of kicking straight even with two coleman medalists in the side.

Too bad fev played under voss at Brisbane otherwise. I'd be getting him exclusively training with Charlie and Harry for most of the week.

You've gotta drop someone.
Someone from that list.
If you are bringing in those 2 and NOT dropping Pittonet....who are you dropping?

That's  easy. Ed C (thanks for your service but seeing as we refuse to play you in your most effective position it's sayonara and we'll see you back at the end of the year for a farewell game with your bro)

and either one of Durdin or Motlop  OR dare I say it, Hollands (the kid needs a rest at some stage). Hell I'd even given Weitering a break the way he's been playing at the moment. I'm not serious about that last one

.............................
Too bad fev played under voss at Brisbane otherwise. I'd be getting him exclusively training with Charlie and Harry for most of the week.

I don't think Voss would stand in their way if they wanted Fev as a kicking coach. I suspect Voss had several problems at the Lions, and Fev was simply one. I'm guessing he would've been sacked even if Fev stayed at Carlton. I have no idea how he feels about Fev now. Fevola has apologised to Voss publicly, and I'm sure he understands that Fev is a much loved player among the Blues faithful, especially in recent times.

At any rate, being able to kick well is one thing, being able to impart the knowledge is another. I've no idea if Fev has what it takes.

That's  easy. Ed C (thanks for your service but seeing as we refuse to play you in your most effective position it's sayonara and we'll see you back at the end of the year for a farewell game with your bro)

and either one of Durdin or Motlop  OR dare I say it, Hollands (the kid needs a rest at some stage). Hell I'd even given Weitering a break the way he's been playing at the moment. I'm not serious about that last one

Easy you say.

You've just dropped Ed and Hollands, our best 2 runners and replaced them with KPP's.

Congratulations, you've just handed the opposition an easy win.

If you wanna bring in 2 talls....you really should look at dropping 2 talls.

Only Jack Reiwoldt could help Harry.

Easy you say.

You've just dropped Ed and Hollands, our best 2 runners and replaced them with KPP's.

Congratulations, you've just handed the opposition an easy win.

If you wanna bring in 2 talls....you really should look at dropping 2 talls.

We have handed the opposition bar that WAFL side  an easy win every week since we have gone with 1 ruck.

Pitto last night dominated English in the ruck taps, no good around the ground but that is a weakness we know about and should be able to handle. My issue was our mids, I was at the game and it was so frustrating watching Pitto wrestle for best position get the tap out, usually straight to his feet or in front of him only to see Bulldogs players getting to the drop before our mids, we were always behind. I'm not sure what else Pitto was supposed to do, he cant hit it over the opposition heads, our mids have to fight for best position cause even from the stands I could see where the ball was going to fall. Not sure if that's coaching, ability or desire but it was lacking all night.

It was good to see that we were able to kick a competitive (and almost winning) score with minimal input from Charlie and Harry. I've been hoping to see this all season. Also good to see that Owies, after a long lay off, was able to come in and play a difficult position, and have instant impact. Well played.

My other beef last night was why the MC dropped Kemp and didn't even make him sub, while I love Ed, he is not the future. As for dropping Kemp, if I had to choose between Kemp and McGovern, I'd choose Kemp every time. McGovern doesn't look interested and makes mistakes every time he goes near the ball, has been like that all year.

We have handed the opposition bar that WAFL side  an easy win every week since we have gone with 1 ruck.

Causation and Correlation.

You really need to look into that.
Let me expand so you get the point....

Week 1 - 1 ruck (TDK) - Draw (Tigers - 13th)
Week 6 - 1 ruck (Pitto) - Loss (St. Kilda - 5th)
Week 7 - 1 ruck (Pitto) - Win (West Coast - 17th)
Week 8 - 1 ruck (Pitto) - Loss (Brisbane - 3rd)
Week 9 - 1 ruck (Pitto) - Loss (Bulldogs - 6th)

Games against top 6 - 0-3
Games against middle 6 - 0-0-1
Games against bottom 6 - 1-0

Games with 2 rucks
Week 2 - 2 rucks - Win - (Geelong - 7th)
Week 3 - 2 rucks - Win - (GWS - 15th)
Week 4 - 2 rucks - Win - (NM - 16th)
Week 5 - 2 rucks - Loss (Adelaide - 8th)

Games against top 6 - 0-0
Games against middle 6 - 1-1
Games against bottom 6 - 2-0

TOTAL regardless of how many rucks we play....
Games against top 6 - 0-3
Games against middle 6 - 1-1-1
Games against bottom 6 - 3-0

Seems ladder position is all that matters, NOT the amount of rucks we play.
Ladder position is the cause of the result.
Rucks played happens to correlate with the result....ie coincidence.

As that little exercise shows. We are not as good as the top 6, clearly better than the bottom 6, and exactly even with the middle 6.
Rucks numbers are irrelevent.

So why didn't our coach employ the same 101 principle and address the issue in-match ??

We have the question. Not sure we have the answer.

My other beef last night was why the MC dropped Kemp and didn't even make him sub, while I love Ed, he is not the future. As for dropping Kemp, if I had to choose between Kemp and McGovern, I'd choose Kemp every time. McGovern doesn't look interested and makes mistakes every time he goes near the ball, has been like that all year.

mcgovern is way better than you give him credit for.

Kemp should have been the sub, but I would have been swinging McGovern forward because, our forward line is struggling and we need to start coming up with something out of the box and trying to win games.

Easy you say.
You've just dropped Ed and Hollands, our best 2 runners and replaced them with KPP's.
Congratulations, you've just handed the opposition an easy win.
If you wanna bring in 2 talls....you really should look at dropping 2 talls.

Pfffft, whatever Krud. Like you'd ever concede anything. You asked a question I responded to. As always it's my opinion.
Like moves I've suggested will make a difference to the outcome on Sunday. We'll lose and lose badly whatever we do... IMO
1. I agree Ed is one of our best runners (be it a very SLOW one) but as I stated he is being played out of position. They gave him a good role against StKilda which was working but then blew it.
2. You conveniently jumped on the Hollands suggestion (4th choice), so I guess your happy for both Durdin and Motlop to continue on.
3. Love the kid Hollands but he needs a rest.
4. Why drop 2 talls?  we've had the smalls going all year for little return.

By the way I'm surprised you've haven't started on the "lets get rid of Cripps while he still has currency" line you were pumping to the faithful a couple of years ago. I guess TDK is the new target.
Did you ever concede you were w.. w... w.. w.. wrong about that by the way, Fonzie?

Can't play Kennedy, Cera and Hewitt in the same team together. Our midfield becomes monotone, lacking the breakaway to spread and win clearances. Great for winning contested ball. Not so good for the kick mark style that we attempt, often with poor results.
Hence, why Docherty and Saad have to push up to provide run, further exposing the backline if possession is lost. Weitering has to play deeper, preventing his long kicking being deployed.

So with a plodding midfield, ball movement slows, with hurried and high forward entries.

Voss has a massive challenge, for without some more pace through the middle we can't compete against the top sides. But Martin is always injured, as is Cunningham and Dow, O'Brien have both been a bust.

TDK trade must be done for some pace.

Pfffft, whatever Krud. Like you'd ever concede anything. You asked a question I responded to. As always it's my opinion.
Like moves I've suggested will make a difference to the outcome on Sunday. We'll lose and lose badly whatever we do... IMO
1. I agree Ed is one of our best runners (be it a very SLOW one) but as I stated he is being played out of position. They gave him a good role against StKilda which was working but then blew it.
2. You conveniently jumped on the Hollands suggestion (4th choice), so I guess your happy for both Durdin and Motlop to continue on.
3. Love the kid Hollands but he needs a rest.
4. Why drop 2 talls?  we've had the smalls going all year for little return.

By the way I'm surprised you've haven't started on the "lets get rid of Cripps while he still has currency" line you were pumping to the faithful a couple of years ago. I guess TDK is the new target.
Did you ever concede you were w.. w... w.. w.. wrong about that by the way, Fonzie?

re Cripps....
Paraphrasing for emphasis. Wasn't quite that simple, but you know that.

The reason i went for Hollands is because he is 'taller' than the other 2, who are clearly 'small forwards'.
If you wanna swap them out, do it....just makes us taller again.
We can be the land of giants.

I'm happy to drop Ed. Got no issues there.
Not opposed to giving Hollands a rest either.

The point i am making, and have made all year (Yes, TDK plays a role here) is because for TEAM BALANCE we are too tall with a 2nd ruck. We are borderline too tall with the team we have out there now.

Jack, Charlie and Harry up forward.
Weiters, Young and McGovern down back.
Pitto in the middle.
Name me a taller team than that going around?

Some want to add to that by including TDK and Kemp and losing some mids??? Ludicrous.

My whole beef with TDK is not actually with TDK....its with team balance.
If you want to drop Harry for TDK, now is the time.
If you want to drop Young for Kemp, now is the time.

Do that and you don't upset team balance.
You lose 2 out of form players and replace them with equivalent types. I've got no problem with that. Not exactly what i would do, but at least it makes sense.

But no.
People want to drop midfielders (or small forwards) instead.....and THAT makes no sense.
We are already tiring late in games.
We are already slow and chasing tail most of the games.
Doing that will exacerbate the problem not fix anything.

What i would do in our current predicament?

1. Drop Harry, i'm sure he is carrying something. Give him a week off.
2. Move Mitch forward to play 3rd tall.
3. Bring in Kemp to cover Mitch down back.
4. Move Kennedy forward and play him and Jack from the square, with Charlie up at CHF.
5. Rotate Kennedy into the middle and put Cripps from the square if/when required.
6. Drop at least one (probably 2) of Curnow/Cincotta/Hollands and bring in Fisher/Martin/Cuningham (whoever is deemed fittest and in best form) for some more pace through the middle/half back.

End result is this.
Our forwardline is smaller (but not faster) with Kennedy and Silvagni tag-teaming the FF role. Charlie and McGovern spend time up the ground as leading options.
This gives the opposition headaches in where they play their tall defenders. Do they play them on Charlie and Gov and get forced up the ground away from goals?
Or
Do the play them on Jack and Kennedy and get beaten when the ball hits the ground.

Our backline doesn't suffer with Kemp -> McGovern.
Our forwardline starts to give the opposition headaches for different reasons....not least of which is they won't see it coming.
Our midfield gets a little bit faster as a result of Kennedy playing forward (and swapping with Cripps) but don't lose options through there. Adding Fisher/Martin/Cuningham adds speed and outside run.

The results from 2022 and 2023 show our team wins more when we play both rucks. That's the bottom line.

Kruddler, if I follow your line of reasoning correctly in your points 1 to 5, for the sake of team balance you do not see a need to drop any of our small forwards, yet it is highly questionable that either Durdin or Motlop deserve a place in the team on current form. 

As to point 6, from accounts of Martin's poor form on the weekend and Cuningham still being an unknown quantity, it would mean that Fisher is the last man standing - more of the same old, same old.

Your post really shows the trouble we are in with such a poor list which is also not helped by two or three players permanently injured.

Kruddler, if I follow your line of reasoning correctly in your points 1 to 5, for the sake of team balance you do not see a need to drop any of our small forwards, yet it is highly questionable that either Durdin or Motlop deserve a place in the team on current form. 

As to point 6, from accounts of Martin's poor form on the weekend and Cuningham still being an unknown quantity, it would mean that Fisher is the last man standing - more of the same old, same old.

Your post really shows the trouble we are in with such a poor list which is also not helped by two or three players permanently injured.

I don't think we have a poor list exactly.
I think we might have an unbalanced list....at least with injuries being the way they are.

If you pick your best players, from 1 to 22 (or 23) and then try and put them in positions you will get a different team than if you pick your 'best 22' (or 23).
The latter is required to play games.
The former is just a measure of talent.

We need to play games and win games, that's why we need to pick a side that is capable of doing so. If that means we can't play a 2nd ruckman, or we are forced to drop a Coleman medallist, then that's what we need to do.

Re small forwards...
Would you prefer we kept honey in? He was worse. Durdin and Motlop are not b AA forwards but they are the best we have,  so not sure what other options we have.

Main job is defend your man....Essendon asked him to defend and he got upset.
We can't carry too many kick chasers at the expense of defending your man...
You can't let Jaime Elliott on his own all game this week...

Dont fall for the same cr@p line that the media trot out, because their Cheats FC mates fed it to them........  "Saad doesnt defend".   He is actually really good in one on ones.  Yeah, he occasionally gets caught out of position, when he is trying to make the play (but someone else should be covering for him - as he does for others, all the time).    its a myth, started by EFC, and suits the media and others on social media to keep perpetuating it

Bit of a clearer look now the frustrations have subsided. W

hy the change in game plan? Players execution is poor as they struggle to find someone to kick to. What was wrong with last year's game plan. Targets were hit more easily then and we were a good side. We have equal best set of key forwards, Brownlow Medalists, Rising Stars, AA's but play the defensive game plan that has never suited them. Hence we can't get clear ball into the F50, despite the talent there. Issue is too players have to want it badly enough, always an issue, but the coach has to set up a plan the utilises the side's abilities.

Voss had best get back to what works, like last year, otherwise he'll be back to the assistant coaching ranks again next year. We had a review 2 years ago that demanded we play finals with our list. Miss them and it'll be all over. As for the players, a better improvement in attitude. Most disappointed hitting the front Saturday night then letting the Dogs get 3 goals in 5 kicks. That part is on the players.

Dont fall for the same cr@p line that the media trot out, because their Cheats FC mates fed it to them........  "Saad doesnt defend".   He is actually really good in one on ones.  Yeah, he occasionally gets caught out of position, when he is trying to make the play (but someone else should be covering for him - as he does for others, all the time).    its a myth, started by EFC, and suits the media and others on social media to keep perpetuating it

Saad is among the very least of our problems IMO.

Dont fall for the same cr@p line that the media trot out, because their Cheats FC mates fed it to them........  "Saad doesnt defend".   He is actually really good in one on ones.  Yeah, he occasionally gets caught out of position, when he is trying to make the play (but someone else should be covering for him - as he does for others, all the time).    its a myth, started by EFC, and suits the media and others on social media to keep perpetuating it

Im not saying he isnt a good one on one defender but he was a long way off Scott when he kicked those goals and my main issue is you cant have too many players rebounding and not enough defending especially when the game is tight.

Seeing as how finals are no longer a priority,

Thats a bit of a long bow???

How frustrating that we developed Liam Jones into a gun defender and sent him back to the dogs.
He destroyed us, apparently has won 14 out of 15 one on one contests this season.

We didn't give him away, the bloke did a number on us.  It seemed a bit convenient if you ask me, especially the timing.

In the highlights from the weekend he makes a pathetic, outlandish "marking attempt" on JSOS which looked like an obvious free.  Anyway it spilled and Chuck kicked a goal from it.  Looked like a typical Jones Captain chaos incident.

What irks me about Jones is that when he spoiled like that at Carlton he was penalised giving away free after free, and now he isn't!

Otherwise, we don't really miss him, he is still captain chaos and is just as likely to clean up one of his own as the opposition.
At the weekend, the Dogs got away with a huge amount of checking on Charlie and Harry, with the Dogs small defenders blocking and leaving one of them free, Johannisen and Richards early were getting away with murder.

But it only was possible because Motlop and Durdin run around like headless chooks, they exerted zero pressure of Richards and Johannisen early in the match, I would not be surprised if both Dogs small defenders had 20+ possessions by 1/2-time, and we just kept kicking to Charlie and Harry predictably.

What irks me about Jones is that when he spoiled like that at Carlton he was penalised giving away free after free, and now he isn't!

You are dead set making that up.

You are dead set making that up.

Go back and watch games like Jones(Carlton) versus Richmond or Geelong, versus Jones(Bulldogs) vs McKay or Charlie last weekend, he used body spoils last weekend that got him penalised when playing for us, he basically turned himself in a missile that canons into the opponents. But he'll smash himself and team-mates as much as he gets a result.

I don't care about the penalty or lack of it as long as it is applied the same way to all players.

I don't get why they get away with it against us, and on top of that go back and watch some of the spoils from Johannisen and Richards on SoJ and Charlie, straight out arm contact nowhere near the ball, no free kick. There is one from last weekend that is perfect vision, I think it was a Richards spoil on SoJ right over the top of the field umpires head, and he calls play on. At the other end Weiters or Gov brush an opponents arms and it's a free kick, Newman and Cincotta were both penalised at the other end for doing the same.

I see it primarily as a problem of the too many umpires, it leaves the decisions inconsistent because they can't all agree on what is legal or illegal.

I watched Liverpool vs Leicester this morning.  All 3 goals had an element of subjectivity in the decisions.

One of the commentators mentioned that when you aren't going well these borderline calls don't go your way either.  I tend to agree.

The umpiring against the bulldogs wasn't great, but one decision stands out and that was mcgoverb getting front on contact in a marking contest and the call was play on.  We were in front by one point.  At the ground it looked bad.  On replay, not so much so angles can make a big difference.

Ultimately if we were playing better we wouldn't care and odds are we'd get more calls our way.

Ultimately if we were playing better we wouldn't care and odds are we'd get more calls our way.

Which raises another question, is umpiring influenced by expectations?

This is quite relevant when we consider we are playing the Filth this weekend who if they are behind are expected to make a strong final quarter comeback!

Coaches' votes :

9 Tom Liberatore (WB)
8 Ed Richards (WB)
5 Bailey Smith (WB)
3 Jason Johannisen (WB)
2 Liam Jones (WB)
2 Sam Walsh (CARL)
1 Bailey Dale (WB)

Coaches' votes :

9 Tom Liberatore (WB)
8 Ed Richards (WB)
5 Bailey Smith (WB)
3 Jason Johannisen (WB)
2 Liam Jones (WB)
2 Sam Walsh (CARL)
1 Bailey Dale (WB)

Surprised about Libba, thought he was OK but I would have listed Richards or Johannisen as best for them, I expected Walsh to be rated higher but the spoils go to the winners.

Surprised about Libba, thought he was OK but I would have listed Richards or Johannisen as best for them, I expected Walsh to be rated higher but the spoils go to the winners.

According to our friends at Champion Data, Liberatore's game was off the charts, especially his last quarter. Not sure why, in successive weeks, we have to cop 2 blokes who play the game of their lives.

Libba usually does well against us and he lifted in that last 5 mins to help win them the game..