Carlton Supporters Club

Remember to use this after the game!

Said we'd be closer to a 10 goal loss than a win.
Thought it'd be a 6 goal defeat.

Slightly better than that.

Wasn't a great game, but was exactly what i expected.

On to next week.

Top effort, but you can’t be that scrubby and inaccurate against the No1 team.

Those 3 goals at the end of the first hurt more than just the score

Uummmmm

Poor skills coupled with dumbness i.e. played into their hands especially  in 1H. Pies obviously a much better team, but we did manage to turn it into a bit of a scrap to limit the damage in the 2H. Not much to take away though. Pies belief goes on.

My only contribution is to point out that “post game prognostications” is grammatically incorrect.

Much better second half.
As usual, the level of disappointment will be directly correlated to the level of expectation.
4-5 goal loss was about my level of expectation.

My only contribution is to point out that “post game prognostications” is grammatically incorrect.

I think the grammar is fine , but it’s logically incorrect. Good pick up. I never noticed.

Depressing result really, had some players interested who contested then we had others who racked up easy possessions but had no impact on the game at all. I was expecting more effort and desperation as a collective, didnt think Collingwood were at their best either which made it more depressing.
We never looked in the game and fell to Collingwoods working class game ...we won most of the stats but as usual just fecked around with the ball and went nowhere and you have to start looking at the game plan and what Voss is doing.
Our forwards have little hope with such over use of the ball.....

Pathetic effort. Pies toyed with us and then took the foot off the gas.

Pathetic effort. Pies toyed with us and then took the foot off the gas.

Have to agree, they just did what they had to do and its always the same players who beat us and we never seem to learn....very frustrating watching and I cant trust the club anymore to raise an effort even when struggling.
There had to be extra effort today but I just didnt see it.....

As people have stated, our delivery into F50 is awful.  That's a coaching issue. So DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT Voss.

If players can't deliver the ball into F50, then F them off and get some one who can

Seriously, why can't these idiots spot up somebody else other than bombing it to Charlie and Harry...surely JSOS and the others are making position!?! 

When factored against where we really are against the pre season expectations... a pretty good effort against the top side. Kicked ourselves out of it to some extent. Forward line needs something of a renovation.

All is not lost. Plenty of season left to improve/get better/more efficient (and for those who might utter, "Couldn't get any worse." Yes we could).

Krudds in the in game thread:

“ How many times is he actually targetting when we go forward.
How many times is ANYONE targetting besides Harry and Charlie when we go forward?

They said it early on...Moore was simply working out where we were going to go based on where Charlie and Harry were located.
All we did was kick it right where we were expected to go all game.

Maybe try something else for a change?”

How often did we “target” Charles or H ?

We desperately need options offered and accepted up forward to break that predictability

The usual suspects like Moore killed us again.  12 intercept marks.  That's unacceptable.

As a club we have the football IQ of a simpleton.

As people have stated, our delivery into F50 is awful.  That's a coaching issue. So DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT Voss.

If players can't deliver the ball into F50, then F them off and get some one who can

Seriously, why can't these idiots spot up somebody else other than bombing it to Charlie and Harry...surely JSOS and the others are making position!?! 

Part of the problem when we do go forward is that Durdin, Motlop and Owies seem to go missing, allowing the backs to clear the ball away under little if any pressure, and we are in trouble again.

While we have to rely on Charlie and H to do most of the work then the ball is directed to them and we become so predictable.

Also, our poor kicking for goal from set shots is a morale killer.

It seems to me that the players lack self belief for whatever reason.  First half was awful very fumbly and passive.

Seemed to get agro after half time  and although we lacked the class to really turn things around were a lot more competitive and upset the pies apple art and hit them hard.

Clearly we have to go out and bash up the swans on Friday, show them we mean business and reckon we will win. 

Part of the problem when we do go forward is that Durdin, Motlop and Owies seem to go missing, allowing the backs to clear the ball away under little if any pressure, and we are in trouble again.

While we have to rely on Charlie and H to do most of the work then the ball is directed to them and we become so predictable.

Also, our poor kicking for goal from set shots is a morale killer.

Yep.....total reliance on Harry and Charlie to kick a score....our other forwards just dont touch the ball enough.
Owies at least gives you bang for buck when he does get it, he can kick straight but the others are just passengers....

We gave DM the all time record for intercept marks. That's how dumb we are, says it all really..

Do okay when ball is in dispute - but ball movement needs alot of work.
Small forwards only burst run when ball is in vicinity but you never see them sustain run create space and sustain run to fall of the ball. They are just dumb spreaders
Some of the forward 50 entries were diabolical. Filth is just a better team - Mihocek kicking 4 goals straight all of them easy is a worrying sign.
TDK was good in VFL think he needs to come straight in.

The usual suspects like Moore killed us again.  12 intercept marks.  That's unacceptable.

As a club we have the football IQ of a simpleton.

I think attention has to turn to the coaching box...same opposition players beating us and we just play the same ineffective game plan over using the ball and wasting entry time and opportunities.

Part of the problem when we do go forward is that Durdin, Motlop and Owies seem to go missing, allowing the backs to clear the ball away under little if any pressure, and we are in trouble again.

While we have to rely on Charlie and H to do most of the work then the ball is directed to them and we become so predictable.

Also, our poor kicking for goal from set shots is a morale killer.

I think we need to work in tandem somewhat.

Make sure Charlie has a shadow, and Harry has a shadow.
Ensure neither of them are targeted without one of our smalls ready to pounce at their feet.

A couple time we went to Harry when he was 1-on-1 and he failed to mark. 99 times out of 100, he loses once the ball is dropped. We must have a small forward with him to mop up.
Similarly with Charlie, although he is a bit better on the ground, just not as good as required.

Of course we can use this to our advantage and have Harry block for our small forwards who can find space themselves and we kick to them instead.

But, it should all start by 'pairing' a small forward with a key forward.

Moore taking a record number of IMs?
 Suggests that the coaching group and MC can't learn. Even dumb supporters like us foresaw the issues....why the F can't the club?   I don't want to execute another coach but I'm seeing nothing that says stay the course with the current bloke - I've completely lost faith that this bloke has any idea what he's doing.

Moore taking a record number of IMs?
 Suggests that the coaching group and MC can't learn. Even dumb supporters like us foresaw the issues....why the F can't the club?   I don't want to execute another coach but I'm seeing nothing that says stay the course with the current bloke - I've completely lost faith that this bloke has any idea what he's doing.

Sack another coach? He is a good leader of men - just need to work with him to conjure a game plan that suits the players.

They need to get a move on though.

Moore taking a recore number of IMs?
 Suggests that the coaching group and MC can't learn. Even dumb supporters like us foresaw the issues....why the F can't the club?   I don't want to execute another coach but I'm seeing nothing that says stay the course with the current bloke - I've completely lost faith that this bloke as any idea what he's doing.

Prof, Im looking at the other assistant coaches...Voss isnt a great tactician and never was at Brisbane but you rely on your assistants to provide you with ideas and info and we just seem to do the same stuff every week in fact and make the same mistakes.

Tend to agree that we let the usual suspects Sidebum, Pebbles etc carve us up we should have a plan for them or maybe they are just too good..

Oh well, such is life. I'll start by saying I'm pretty sure I watched the premiers live today. The are one hell of a football side. They run in pairs, there are nearly always 2 players to receive  and then multiple options to give to. They are supremely confident in leaving their man, hitting a target anywhere on the ground and they read the incoming ball like freaks. Moore was BOG for mine, if he was a fwd he would have kicked a big bag of goals. He is doing what Weiters was doing all year last year, Moore will be the AA FB this year.
Us. It could have been alot worse. Our defence was super shoddy early but settled to be a little better in the second half. Weiters is totally bereft of any confidence, he would have a spell but there is no one in the 2s to replace him. The 50m penalties we gave away (Hollands and Boyd) which resulted in goals where unforgivable, the dumbest, undisciplined acts I have seen in a long time. They are good at scoring, we dont need to give them a leg up.
Walsh I felt had a dirty day, was very messy and was under pressure alot. Ditto Saad.
I thought Doc and Cez were our best by long way, put in for 4 qtrs and never gave up.
When I saw H nail that first goal, I thought that's exactly what he needed. In the end their defence was too good.
Pitto toiled away all day, I still think in an ideal world, Pitto and TDK in peak form can be a 1 -2 combo that can trouble side. They key to that though is they have to be able to go fwd (or back) and do damage there. I'd almost give Weiters a spell (time away) and TDK his roll.
I tried to be positive, I genuinely thought if we played our best we could have had a shot, in the end, we just weren't good enough.
Thats about it.
Onto next week. I am hanging onto a theory/hope that we will be much better after the bye, that is we are saving our best, run and gun footy for the second half of the year (ie opposite to last year). Hears hoping.

Sack another coach? He is a good leader of men - just need to work with him to conjure a game plan that suits the players.

They need to get a move on though.

Thing is though the review 2 years ago that had Teague sacked demanded we make finals. If we finish, say, 11th, as we are now, there's very little chance of Voss surviving based on that. Finals were an expectancy from the Board.

The usual suspects like Moore killed us again.  12 intercept marks.  That's unacceptable.

As a club we have the football IQ of a simpleton.

Ahem, 17 intercepts he had.

I think we need to work in tandem somewhat.

Make sure Charlie has a shadow, and Harry has a shadow.
Ensure neither of them are targeted without one of our smalls ready to pounce at their feet.

A couple time we went to Harry when he was 1-on-1 and he failed to mark. 99 times out of 100, he loses once the ball is dropped. We must have a small forward with him to mop up.
Similarly with Charlie, although he is a bit better on the ground, just not as good as required.

Of course we can use this to our advantage and have Harry block for our small forwards who can find space themselves and we kick to them instead.

But, it should all start by 'pairing' a small forward with a key forward.

I agree.  But why aren't we doing that now?

For as long as I've been following football it's been accepted that part of the role of small forwards is to go after the ball once it hits the ground at the feet of the tall forwards.

My worry is that we don't have players on the list with the necessary  hand and foot skills to make this happen - and who are also lacking in decision making.

Tend to agree that we let the usual suspects Sidebum, Pebbles etc carve us up we should have a plan for them or maybe they are just too good..

They have a lot of rotations through their midfield positions and its hard to keep with the different players and where they are playing. Their ball use is of a very high standard and I think picking up Mitchell has been a a real win as he is doing a lot of the donkey work, saying that Pendlebury had 8 tackles which is a credit to him given his age and his role in the team which is to provide finish rather than do the dirty work in contests..

I think attention has to turn to the coaching box...same opposition players beating us and we just play the same ineffective game plan over using the ball and wasting entry time and opportunities.

Voss and Cripps were seen in heated discussion on the boundary, we know how that movie normally ends.

Ahem, 17 intercepts he had.

11 intercept MARKS

17 intercept possessions.

He picked up a few off hands/dribblers on top of all the marks.

Oh well, such is life. I'll start by saying I'm pretty sure I watched the premiers live today. The are one hell of a football side. They run in pairs, there are nearly always 2 players to receive  and then multiple options to give to. They are supremely confident in leaving their man, hitting a target anywhere on the ground and they read the incoming ball like freaks. Moore was BOG for mine, if he was a fwd he would have kicked a big bag of goals. He is doing what Weiters was doing all year last year, Moore will be the AA FB this year.
Us. It could have been alot worse. Our defence was super shoddy early but settled to be a little better in the second half. Weiters is totally bereft of any confidence, he would have a spell but there is no one in the 2s to replace him. The 50m penalties we gave away (Hollands and Boyd) which resulted in goals where unforgivable, the dumbest, undisciplined acts I have seen in a long time. They are good at scoring, we dont need to give them a leg up.
Walsh I felt had a dirty day, was very messy and was under pressure alot. Ditto Saad.
I thought Doc and Cez were our best by long way, put in for 4 qtrs and never gave up.
When I saw H nail that first goal, I thought that's exactly what he needed. In the end their defence was too good.
Pitto toiled away all day, I still think in an ideal world, Pitto and TDK in peak form can be a 1 -2 combo that can trouble side. They key to that though is they have to be able to go fwd (or back) and do damage there. I'd almost give Weiters a spell (time away) and TDK his roll.
I tried to be positive, I genuinely thought if we played our best we could have had a shot, in the end, we just weren't good enough.
Thats about it.
Onto next week. I am hanging onto a theory/hope that we will be much better after the bye, that is we are saving our best, run and gun footy for the second half of the year (ie opposite to last year). Hears hoping.

Brisbane are better. Already seen them flog Collingwood and Melbourne.

Yes, we have to hang on to whatever hope there is as you never know. Walsh is struggling with his lack of preseason. Maybe we should of gave him more time.

Voss and Cripps were seen in heated discussion on the boundary, we know how that movie normally ends.

Yep
It may be time to give Cripps a change of scenery.

Seriously, I'm not sure there was a lot in it but we'll put our own interpretations on it.

There's a general feeling that Cripps may have played a large part in Teague's demise.
That could also extend to Bolton.
But that's speculation.

What is probably not speculation is that Cripps wields a lot of influence over the playing group.

If it did come to a showdown it may be that the Captain moves this time rather than the coach.

But as I said that's speculation, maybe even wild speculation.

Thing is though the review 2 years ago that had Teague sacked demanded we make finals. If we finish, say, 11th, as we are now, there's very little chance of Voss surviving based on that. Finals were an expectancy from the Board.

True - the list is more than good enough to play finals. One game out of the eight so hope this silly at times club doesn't make any rash decision

Voss and Cripps were seen in heated discussion on the boundary, we know how that movie normally ends.

I think it's fair for Voss to demand more from his leaders.

Prof, Im looking at the other assistant coaches...Voss isnt a great tactician and never was at Brisbane but you rely on your assistants to provide you with ideas and info and we just seem to do the same stuff every week in fact and make the same mistakes.

Probably need  an excellent opposition analyst who can advise on what variations to gameplan are required each week.

I think it's fair for Voss to demand more from his leaders.

Agree. I think we have big problem in this area.

True - the list is more than good enough to play finals. One game out of the eight so hope this silly at times club doesn't make any rash decision

Sayers was the one who set finals as the goal.
Others have a different opinion of whether that's the indisputable target.

Probably need  an excellent opposition analyst who can advise on what variations to gameplan are required each week.

Definitely second this. Weiters tagging Darcy Moore is crazy enough to work.

Yep
It may be time to give Cripps a change of scenery.

Seriously, I'm not sure there was a lot in it but we'll put our own interpretations on it.

There's a general feeling that Cripps may have played a large part in Teague's demise.
That could also extend to Bolton.
But that's speculation.

What is probably not speculation is that Cripps wields a lot of influence over the playing group.

If it did come to a showdown it may be thaty the Captain moves this time rather than the coach.

But as I said that's speculation, maybe even wild speculation.

He's on coach no 4, Ed C on his 5th. Just saying.

My tip was Pies by 26. I am really struggling to see us improve based on 10 games.

It's not like we have the worst list, major injury concerns, or a bad draw insofaras travel goes. Yet here we are sliding down the ladder.

For all the effort, we're just not getting it right. While that happens sometimes, we've made a habit of it now. Worse still, nothing we try (giving credit to coaches, fitness, MC as I have no idea what they're trying) is improving our results. Results are all that count at this stage of our .... rebuild.

Time is running out to get going and maintain some good form.

Go Blues

I think it's fair for Voss to demand more from his leaders.

No argument from me mate, what I am telling is that the footage will be played all week, it will be written about all week, the Mathiesons of the world will come come at us again.

True - the list is more than good enough to play finals.

Ill beg to differ.

Not sure how this is Voss and the list as just missed playing finals last season.

I think the team is 2 x high quality small forwards short of a flag but to make 8-6th more than good enough imo.

My feeling is that since Parkin and Brittain empowered the players they've had a bit too much influence on coaching decisions.
I think it's been a  major issue for us.
It was particularly evident during the Pagan/Kouta period and it was probably a cultural thing that was enhanced as each generation of players came to the club.
Murphy, Gibbs, Simpson etc would have walked into this environment where players sometimes called the shots and sunk a coach's tenure.
Cripps in his early days would also have experienced this ongoing culture thingy with senior palyers calling the tune.
Has it had an influence.
Has it affected decisions regarding coaching.
If so, it's a cycle that needs to be broken.
The coach needs to be "The Man"

Not sure how this is Voss and the list as just missed playing finals last season.

I think the team is 2 x high quality small forwards short of a flag but to make 8-6th more than good enough imo.

Then we should win next week no problems right?

Pathetic effort. Pies toyed with us and then took the foot off the gas.

Yep, they were laughing and joking as they moved around the ground, even when we put the brakes on they were going half-ar5ed and we were flat chat.

Love the heart and soul that SoJ brings, but if that is to be his role he may as well be played in the VFL, it's just pointless. That moment I think late in the 3rd says it all, gets a perfectly weighted pass from somebody off the HBF, and stood there waiting for the pill to come to him which was intercepted, that's junior football rubbish.

Took the best part of 3-qtrs before Pitto took a D50 mark, it's his gig and we messed it up completely.

Our MC got the rope-a-dope with Cameron, and confirmed we are the dopes!

We actually did OK at stopping the run of the Filth, opposition clubs will look at that knowing we aren't that fast, it'll work for others. Saad and Doc burnt a lot of footy, as did Boyd early but he found his feet.

Acres is off the boil, no point playing a bloke just to prove he was worth the trade.

We've a big bodied Midfield, and I was very disappointed that we didn't reduce the influence of De Goey more.

Young is off the boil as well, has good moments but they come at a price. Teams are structuring up so that Young becomes our free KPD, and it's not working for us, he's not a particularly good ball user and is slow to act. I hope he watched Moore and took notes!

Not getting anywhere near enough out of Motlop or Durdin, they are two permanent passengers at the moment.

Not sure what is wrong with Cripps, huge heart, love the effort, but I can't see the point of arguing with the coach on the boundary line, not sure any of our players have enough credits to question Voss credentials, Bolton maybe, Teague probably not, Voss definitely not, makes me think of Teague again!

Basically as expected. Not at the level necessary to compete in a big match at the start of the match. Can't hit targets coming out of defence, in the midfield or going into the forward line. Poor decision making, not enough run, playing as individuals, no overall game plan, no trust in one another, no one knows what their team mates will do with the ball, lack of pace in ball movement and across the ground and no one plays with passion and flair.
There is no future in McGovern, Silvagni has never kicked a bag of goals in over 100 games.Time to go back. Bring TDK into the side as a forward ruck.  If we are going to keep kicking it long into the forward line at least he would give us a third target. Need to bring in Fisher and Dow. At least they have pace. Not sure Curnow and Hewitt can play in the same side. Durden and Acres might need a rest.
When will it end. When will a Carlton team make a real change at it. I can't remember when we were better in the second half of the season than the first. This does not bode well for the future.

Then we should win next week no problems right?

Yes I think we will beat Sydney.

Basically as expected. Not at the level necessary to compete in a big match at the start of the match. Can't hit targets coming out of defence, in the midfield or going into the forward line. Poor decision making, not enough run, playing as individuals, no overall game plan, no trust in one another, no one knows what their team mates will do with the ball, lack of pace in ball movement and across the ground and no one plays with passion and flair.
There is no future in McGovern, Silvagni has never kicked a bag of goals in over 100 games.Time to go back. Bring TDK into the side as a forward ruck.  If we are going to keep kicking it long into the forward line at least he would give us a third target. Need to bring in Fisher and Dow. At least they have pace. Not sure Curnow and Hewitt can play in the same side. Durden and Acres might need a rest.
When will it end. When will a Carlton team make a real change at it. I can't remember when we were better in the second half of the season than the first. This does not bode well for the future.

Fisher was bloody aweful in the 3 qtrs I watched, dont know how he went in the 4th but the first three were definitely sub standard. If Durds is injured then maybe he fills a spot but his form doesn't warrant it.

He's on coach no 4, Ed C on his 5th. Just saying.

That's got to be a record. Just not the right kind of record 😕

Game was over 10 minutes into the first quarter.

If we sack another coach, then we should be going with a playing coach. 

We've exhausted all other options.

That's got to be a record. Just not the right kind of record 😕

marc Murphy has them both covered.

Not sure how this is Voss and the list as just missed playing finals last season.

I think the team is 2 x high quality small forwards short of a flag but to make 8-6th more than good enough imo.

And we did it last year with half a side most weeks.

Yep
It may be time to give Cripps a change of scenery.

Seriously, I'm not sure there was a lot in it but we'll put our own interpretations on it.

There's a general feeling that Cripps may have played a large part in Teague's demise.
That could also extend to Bolton.
But that's speculation.

What is probably not speculation is that Cripps wields a lot of influence over the playing group.

If it did come to a showdown it may be that the Captain moves this time rather than the coach.

But as I said that's speculation, maybe even wild speculation.

I got lambasted for suggesting the same thing last time.
Someone even brought it up last week.

Sometimes your greatest strength is also your greatest weakness.

No cripps, no carlton? Maybe. Maybe not.

TBH, i didn't see the exchange between the 2, but this is (at least) the second time its been speculated on, most likely the third.
Cripps or not, players have always held too much sway at the club when looking at coaches.
Once is an accident. Twice is a coincidence. Three times is a pattern.

We are up to what....#5 now?
I'm sure that saying extends to "Five times and its clear as f***ing day what the problem is!"

Whether Cripps is a problem or not, the coach is the one we should build around as a good one can outlive each and every player you have at the club.
Look at the premiership winning coaches of the past 20 years. All but a select few have won a flag in their 4th year (or longer) as head coach.
The only exceptions to that rule is...
Chris Scott - He took over a premiership calibre team from Bomber and won in his first year.
John Longmire - Long-term understudy to Paul Roos who was transitioned from senior assistant into Full-time head coach over seasons but won in his second(?) year as actual coach.
Luke Beveridge - He won in his second year but only finished 7th on the ladder. Never finished top 4 and has only won a final (albeit 3) in one other season in his 9 seasons as coach.

So....you need to back a coach in and work around him.
I'm not sure we have the balls, or the patience, to actually do that.

I got lambasted for suggesting the same thing last time.
Someone even brought it up last week.

Sometimes your greatest strength is also your greatest weakness.

No cripps, no carlton? Maybe. Maybe not.

TBH, i didn't see the exchange between the 2, but this is (at least) the second time its been speculated on, most likely the third.
Cripps or not, players have always held too much sway at the club when looking at coaches.
Once is an accident. Twice is a coincidence. Three times is a pattern.

We are up to what....#5 now?
I'm sure that saying extends to "Five times and its clear as f***ing day what the problem is!"

Whether Cripps is a problem or not, the coach is the one we should build around as a good one can outlive each and every player you have at the club.
Look at the premiership winning coaches of the past 20 years. All but a select few have won a flag in their 4th year (or longer) as head coach.
The only exceptions to that rule is...
Chris Scott - He took over a premiership calibre team from Bomber and won in his first year.
John Longmire - Long-term understudy to Paul Roos who was transitioned from senior assistant into Full-time head coach over seasons but won in his second(?) year as actual coach.
Luke Beveridge - He won in his second year but only finished 7th on the ladder. Never finished top 4 and has only won a final (albeit 3) in one other season in his 9 seasons as coach.

So....you need to back a coach in and work around him.
I'm not sure we have the balls, or the patience, to actually do that.

We've only had 1 out of our last 4 coaches (includes voss) make it past year 2 without being declared a failure and pretty sure Bolton was on thin ice when it happened. 

Just remember I called it first.  Voss has 4 weeks left.

When was the Voss Cripps exchange? I’d like to go back and see it.

We've only had 1 out of our last 4 coaches (includes voss) make it past year 2 without being declared a failure and pretty sure Bolton was on thin ice when it happened. 

Just remember I called it first.  Voss has 4 weeks left.

Surely not! (opinion respected tho)
Where's their learn from the past nous?

When was the Voss Cripps exchange? I’d like to go back and see it.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1660170316734402561

And we did it last year with half a side most weeks.

Comp is tougher now, teams have improved that were not expected too.
Even Geelong are struggling and Richmond look gone, we haven't improved to the extent some of the other teams have. There are 2-3 very poor teams but the rest I couldn't be confident of winning against and putting the house on us giving consistent effort which is what wins games as much as talent now.
We have as much talent as most but our effort factor is unreliable and I don't know how you coach effort which should be a given if you are a good team.

Did not look like very much AT ALL to me, but I'm sure the media will be pumping it up

We just lost by 5 goals with more scoring shots to a team with a 20-2 W/L over the last 12 months, the current flag favourites, Voss is coaching with one eye on the team and one eye over his shoulder, and people say he's no good and has to go. Like that move has worked well in the past.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1660170316734402561

Havn't seen it - nothing in it. Just two blokes that want to win rather attitudinal but Crippa needs to pull his head in.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1660170316734402561

That's it ?

Comp is tougher now, teams have improved that were not expected too.
Even Geelong are struggling and Richmond look gone, we haven't improved to the extent some of the other teams have. There are 2-3 very poor teams but the rest I couldn't be confident of winning against and putting the house on us giving consistent effort which is what wins games as much as talent now.
We have as much talent as most but our effort factor is unreliable and I don't know how you coach effort which should be a given if you are a good team.

We started well with 3 wins and a draw from our first 4 games.
Got ahead of ourselves and now its come back to bite us.
We'll work through it and realise that you have to be 100%, 100% of the time to be a legitimate competitor in this league.
Not there yet.
Hardly panic stations though.

That's it ?

Thats all i could find. *shrugs*

Voss clearly annoyed with the last comments there. You can lip read some of it.

Did not look like very much AT ALL to me, but I'm sure the media will be pumping it up

Doesn't look at all like an argument to me.

We just lost by 5 goals with more scoring shots to a team with a 20-2 W/L over the last 12 months, the current flag favourites, Voss is coaching with one eye on the team and one eye over his shoulder, and people say he's no good and has to go. Like that move has worked well in the past.

the scoring shots favoured us dramatically.   How many of those scoring shots were long kicks punched over the line rushed? 5.

Take those out of the equation because quite a few were not likely to score and how does it look?

Putrid.  The game was done halfway through the first quarter and we all knew it.

We started well with 3 wins and a draw from our first 4 games.
Got ahead of ourselves and now its come back to bite us.
We'll work through it and realise that you have to be 100%, 100% of the time to be a legitimate competitor in this league.
Not there yet.
Hardly panic stations though.

Got carried away with a draw vs Richmond who are crap and got a win vs a injury hit hung over Geelong that inflated belief and expectations.
And yep got ahead of ourselves....lose vs the Injury hit Swans and we will be relying on other teams losing and that never works..

Doesn't look at all like an argument to me.

Agree. More tension in my morning porridge.

the scoring shots favoured us dramatically.   How many of those scoring shots were long kicks punched over the line rushed? 5.

Take those out of the equation because quite a few were not likely to score and how does it look?

Putrid.  The game was done halfway through the first quarter and we all knew it.

I'm not suggesting we would have won, and I'm certainly not suggesting we were the better team, but the caterwauling and head hunting and wobblies that get thrown seem a big overreaction IMO.

the scoring shots favoured us dramatically.   How many of those scoring shots were long kicks punched over the line rushed? 5.

Take those out of the equation because quite a few were not likely to score and how does it look?

Putrid.  The game was done halfway through the first quarter and we all knew it.

Look at the stats and across the board it was an 'even' contest.
Same inside 50's
Same tackles
Similar contested possessions
Similar turnovers
Similar 1%
Similar disposal efficiency (we actually had slightly better)
Same efficiency inside 50.

Ultimately, they converted, we did not.
They were under less pressure than we were under, all over the ground, including in front of goal.

A bit more luck in front of goal, tables are turned, pressure is reversed, its game on.
But they got too much too soon and blew us out of the water. We came back but they are too good to let us make a difference.

Surely we can't go again with the 3 smalls in Durdin, Owies and Motlop....it's simply not working? Our midfielders don't hit the scoreboard. Charlie manages to find goals nearly every week and without him, we'd be even further down the ladder. Is it time to just simply try something different? Play Marchbank down back and push McGovern forward....drop Young...Sydney aren't blessed with tall forwards at the moment with their injuries. Brink TDK back in. I don't really get to see the VFL games but Dow another big game with 40 possessions. That said, SCG is a small ground which probably doesn't help us.

Surely we can't go again with the 3 smalls in Durdin, Owies and Motlop....it's simply not working? Our midfielders don't hit the scoreboard. Charlie manages to find goals nearly every week and without him, we'd be even further down the ladder. Is it time to just simply try something different? Play Marchbank down back and push McGovern forward....drop Young...Sydney aren't blessed with tall forwards at the moment with their injuries. Brink TDK back in. I don't really get to see the VFL games but Dow another big game with 40 possessions. That said, SCG is a small ground which probably doesn't help us.

IMO Dow was BOG with TDK next so in a normal world there would be a case for both of them to come in but in the Carlton universe it's highly unlikely. Well Dow getting a game anyway

IMO Dow was BOG with TDK next so in a normal world there would be a case for both of them to come in but in the Carlton universe it's highly unlikely. Well Dow getting a game anyway

I thought Kemp deserves a promotion as much as anyone from what i saw today.
Was probably harsh not to be playing already TBH.

Might be time to give Ed a rest. Dow can come in for him....or at least as the sub.

marc Murphy has them both covered.

5 Coaches, same as Ed.

I thought Kemp deserves a promotion as much as anyone from what i saw today.
Was probably harsh not to be playing already TBH.

Might be time to give Ed a rest. Dow can come in for him....or at least as the sub.

Fully agree and have alluded to this on the other thread...the treatment of Dow is bizarre when we need pace and run, he will make mistakes but I want some burst and flair away from packs and Id drop George who looks like he is carrying an injury or some off field problem.

I thought Kemp deserves a promotion as much as anyone from what i saw today.
Was probably harsh not to be playing already TBH.
Yep, absolutely.
Might be time to give Ed a rest. Dow can come in for him....or at least as the sub.
Double-yep, but it ain't going to happen

I thought Vossy's presser was honest, measured, and delivered with relative confidence. Good for him. He was a brutal competitor. Let's hope he can withstand whatever criticism comes his way, and get the team to click.

Feels to me like a lot is good enough, but a few key things have some ways to go. It's like watching a cyclist on a moving velodrome. As one manoeuvre is successfully executed, the next challenge is unexpectedly approaching at speed.

I thought Vossy's presser was honest, measured, and delivered with relative confidence. Good for him. He was a brutal competitor. Let's hope he can withstand whatever criticism comes his way, and get the team to click.

Feels to me like a lot is good enough, but a few key things have some ways to go. It's like watching a cyclist on a moving velodrome. As one manoeuvre is successfully executed, the next challenge is unexpectedly approaching at speed.

I agree.

It's not the loss itself that has disappointed me the most, its the actual manner in which we lost that has pissed me right off.

No system, too predictable and a stack of players who pick & choose when to go, it is just not good enough and never ever will be.

I am more than happy to have some further analysis of the playing list (and I will over the coming week), but I now feel that Voss' appointment as senior coach has to come under serious scrutiny. I initially thought he was a very good choice for us but clearly, the wheels have come off the wagon and we have slumped to a mid-table rabble with no future in sight.

Time to review this aspect of the club and more importantly, who is making the decisions too. 

 

Yep
It may be time to give Cripps a change of scenery.

Seriously, I'm not sure there was a lot in it but we'll put our own interpretations on it.

There's a general feeling that Cripps may have played a large part in Teague's demise.
That could also extend to Bolton.
But that's speculation.

What is probably not speculation is that Cripps wields a lot of influence over the playing group.

If it did come to a showdown it may be that the Captain moves this time rather than the coach.

But as I said that's speculation, maybe even wild speculation.

Very interesting comment Lods and it ties in with one of the threadstarters I have been working on for the past week.

5 Coaches, same as Ed.

6 including Barker, and Murphy was here for pagan. 

Look at the stats and across the board it was an 'even' contest.
Same inside 50's
Same tackles
Similar contested possessions
Similar turnovers
Similar 1%
Similar disposal efficiency (we actually had slightly better)
Same efficiency inside 50.

Ultimately, they converted, we did not.
They were under less pressure than we were under, all over the ground, including in front of goal.

A bit more luck in front of goal, tables are turned, pressure is reversed, its game on.
But they got too much too soon and blew us out of the water. We came back but they are too good to let us make a difference.

There was a team out there that went through the gears when it was required and put the queue in the rack when they went 40 points up.

Our mob look and play clueless football.

5.1 to 1 goal 2 and I couldn't see us getting back into it. 

6 including Barker, and Murphy was here for pagan.

Murphy wasn't here for Voss though

I thought Vossy's presser was honest, measured, and delivered with relative confidence. Good for him. He was a brutal competitor. Let's hope he can withstand whatever criticism comes his way, and get the team to click.

Feels to me like a lot is good enough, but a few key things have some ways to go. It's like watching a cyclist on a moving velodrome. As one manoeuvre is successfully executed, the next challenge is unexpectedly approaching at speed.

I thought it was better than his previous couple where he just tried to deflect the important issues but he was more matter of fact today and didnt offer any excuses. He looks worried and tired and reckon he needs that mid season break to recharge the batteries.

Murphy wasn't here for Voss though

I stand corrected.  Missed that detail.

As was posted in the in game thread, some Pies run, dare,  positioning and ball use was (date I say it) good to watch.

We played cateful, defensive, static football.  This skews stats.

What has happened to the electric running, ball movement and hitting forwards lace out - what we saw from our opposition?  We tried half way through the third, didn't work,  but the crowd noticed and finally started getting interested.

What is the change - shifting the balance too far (we lament lack of defensive effort while playing attacking footy), structure of the side, confidence or confusion of message to the players?  Certainly don't have forward pressure.

I think we miss a player who is super quick that can chase an opponent from 50m away or who can get the footy, put on the jets and dispose of it to advantage.

Read it somewhere else on here.
We have a football IQ of porridge.

Super quick, whether in the hunt, or with ball in hand, we're a bit limited.

Saad. Philp. Dow. Cuningham.

Surely not! (opinion respected tho)
Where's their learn from the past nous?

all good.  I actually don't want it to happen but that air of inevitability is already hanging around and Carlton just has a habit of doing carlton things.

Comp is tougher now, teams have improved that were not expected too.
Even Geelong are struggling and Richmond look gone, we haven't improved to the extent some of the other teams have. There are 2-3 very poor teams but the rest I couldn't be confident of winning against and putting the house on us giving consistent effort which is what wins games as much as talent now.
We have as much talent as most but our effort factor is unreliable and I don't know how you coach effort which should be a given if you are a good team.

Not much stronger at the top but more even down the board.

Pretty much summed it up there.

Look at the stats and across the board it was an 'even' contest.
Same inside 50's
Same tackles
Similar contested possessions
Similar turnovers
Similar 1%
Similar disposal efficiency (we actually had slightly better)
Same efficiency inside 50.

Ultimately, they converted, we did not.
They were under less pressure than we were under, all over the ground, including in front of goal.

A bit more luck in front of goal, tables are turned, pressure is reversed, its game on.
But they got too much too soon and blew us out of the water. We came back but they are too good to let us make a difference.

We "won" the scoring shots...lol.

We did well when ball was in dispute. Did not hurt them enough when we had the ball and they hurt us more when they did.

When you have money ball kicks from Ed Curnow when he has ball in hand its going to turn into a turn over most of the time.

Most say why not Dow - becase he is a turn over merchant. He gets the ball at VFL and is a good competitor but his turn overs are amazingly woeful. However I think Ed out for Paddy Dow makes sense but Ed is a better competitor with a superior defensive mindset.

We did well when ball was in dispute. Did not hurt them enough when we had the ball and they hurt us more when they did.

When you have money ball kicks from Ed Curnow when he has ball in hand its going to turn into a turn over most of the time.

Most say why not Dow - becase he is a turn over merchant. He gets the ball at VFL and is a good competitor but his turn overs are amazingly woeful. However I think Ed out for Paddy Dow makes sense but Ed is a better competitor with a superior defensive mindset.

Need to win games and throw caution to the wind as they say, want to see us attack and go hard at the Swans who are undermanned and playing worse than we are. Reckon Dow might get his chance along with TDK as I saw a bit of desperation in the face of Voss at his presser and I reckon he knows these next few weeks are the season gone if we keep losing.
Better to go down swinging than just being a reactive passive team, we have enough talent just need to bring some major effort.
England have Bazball...we need to get attacking with Vossball.......

One last thing, we focus alot on the negatives but by crikey we do alot right also.
Disposals +22
I50s 51 each
DE +2.1%
I50 Eff 43.1% each
HOs 31 each
Clearances +8
Centre Clearance -4 (Ill guess they were all in the first qtr)
Stoppage clearances +12
TO +3 (thought is was more)
Marks -14
Tackles 57 each
1%s  +4
Often the stats seem meaningless, but they tell a story, we weren't obliterated by the best team in the comp.

One last thing, we focus alot on the negatives but by crikey we do alot right also.
Disposals +22
I50s 51 each
DE +2.1%
I50 Eff 43.1% each
HOs 31 each
Clearances +8
Centre Clearance -4 (Ill guess they were all in the first qtr)
Stoppage clearances +12
TO +3 (thought is was more)
Marks -14
Tackles 57 each
1%s  +4
Often the stats seem meaningless, but they tell a story, we weren't obliterated by the best team in the comp.

We get a lot of junk stats, DE% are up because we kick the ball so short and wide. Most of Acres kicks go 15m
 backwards for example.
I looked at the stat sheet too and it looked even but it's when and where in the game and the big moments it doesn't really tell the story like when McGovern squibbed a contest or when we kicked it to Moore a trillion times...

One last thing, we focus alot on the negatives but by crikey we do alot right also.
Disposals +22
I50s 51 each
DE +2.1%
I50 Eff 43.1% each
HOs 31 each
Clearances +8
Centre Clearance -4 (Ill guess they were all in the first qtr)
Stoppage clearances +12
TO +3 (thought is was more)
Marks -14
Tackles 57 each
1%s  +4
Often the stats seem meaningless, but they tell a story, we weren't obliterated by the best team in the comp.

A lot of it just comes down to the skill execution.
The effort is there.

Horne-Francis picks up the ball with one grab in the wet the other night and gives it off for a goal
Our blokes watch as it it goes between their legs and dribbles over the boundary line.
Jus two moments that stick with you, but are indicative of the different skill level we're playing at present.

Just watching our disposals, and why stats can sometimes tell a false story....
Watch the replay and pay attention to the number of time our players have to stretch and reach for passes.
It's only a fraction of a second, an instant, but it's enough to slow the player rather than taking it cleanly at speed.
That's an effective disposal.
But it's one that slows the receiving players momentum while he gathers to play on, often resulting with them being caught or turning the ball over.

Good post Lods.

There are varying degrees of effective. You only have to watch us to see we are not effective in any meaningful way.
I have been top deck the last 2 weeks and that's where you see how poor we actually are.

Most stats are measures of inputs. The outcomes are the important ones and we are currently failing in those.

A lot of it just comes down to the skill execution.
The effort is there.

Horne-Francis picks up the ball with one grab in the wet the other night and gives it off for a goal
Our blokes watch as it it goes between their legs and dribbles over the boundary line.
Jus two moments that stick with you, but are indicative of the different skill level we're playing at present.

Just watching our disposals, and why stats can sometimes tell a false story....
Watch the replay and pay attention to the number of time our players have to stretch and reach for passes.
It's only a fraction of a second, an instant, but it's enough to slow the player rather than taking it cleanly at speed.
That's an effective disposal.
But it's one that slows the receiving players momentum while he gathers to play on, often resulting with them being caught or turning the ball over.

Coll kick goals 2, 3 and 4 (ie 3 in row) in the first qtr without Carl touching the footy once, that tells a story. We outscored them, all be it by a couple of point, in the second half. How many goals did they kick from the goal square due to 50m penalties or terrible defending (the Johnson hanger in the 2nd, not one player blocked his run). Attention to detail, being switched on.

Coll kick goals 2, 3 and 4 (ie 3 in row) in the first qtr without Carl touching the footy once, that tells a story. We outscored them, all be it by a couple of point, in the second half. How many goals did they kick from the goal square due to 50m penalties or terrible defending (the Johnson hanger in the 2nd, not one player blocked his run). Attention to detail, being switched on.

They just did what they had to do in the second half, we never looked like mounting a comeback.
Just a really disappointing effort from the players...

Just watched the 1st half again. Some observations.

JSOS into the ruck cost us at least 3 goals.

Cerra's kick into the forward line, spotting up Durdin, was so dumb I couldn't believe it... guess who Durdin's nearest Rottingwood opponent was? Cox. 1 metre player versus 5 metre player.

The number of times we kicked it to their tallest bloke on the ground (Cox) was astonishing.

We handed Moore a record number of intercepts with predictable/lazy inside 50 kicks, but I understand as there were just no more options other than H and Charles.

Acres foot disposal under pressure gave Rottingwood too many looks.

Ed... too many times - kick'nhope.

Look much better when Charles and H play well apart, eg one of them playing high half forward leading up to the aggot and the other remaining deep.

We did a lot right, just critical disposal errors and/or choice errors.

2 blatant 50s did not go our way.

I don't get the criticisms of our backline, the delivery in waves into our D50 was at times indefensible. The up-field pressure was zilch.

Hollands just doesn't hurt the opposition enough with his disposals.

For the Fluffy Ducks game: Out - Ed, JSOS, Hollands, Young & Durdin
In: TDK (for JSOS), Binns (for Hollands), Kemp (for Young), Cowan (for Ed) & Dow (for Durdin). Dow & Chugga changing midfield/half forward.
(2 small forwards only - Owies & Motlop).

Liked Vossy's media after the game - more authentic/himself. He's had a gutfull of poor defensive efforts from the midfield and poor in-game adjustments to handle turnover.

Vossy - get more flexible in game and please be more ruthless with blokes being 'gifted' games on hope or reputation or fear.

We handed Moore a record number of intercepts with predictable/lazy inside 50 kicks, but I understand as there were just no more options other than H and Charles.

I understand Kruddler's argument for playing the one ruck and using the TDK position to add the extra mid and a bit of mobility.
I just wonder whether De Koning would have been a bit of value playing some form of negating role on Moore...at least providing a contest in that respect, as well as taking a bit of the ruck work.

Silvagni can't compete in the ruck contests and Pittonet can only do ruck contests. My mate said watch Pittonet after the tap, we watched and he just stood in the spot and watched all the mids fight for the ball, it came out to the guy next to him and he made like he was going to run at him but then just didn't bother to even try.

Meanwhile Mason Cox looked like Dean Cox out there.

Coll kick goals 2, 3 and 4 (ie 3 in row) in the first qtr without Carl touching the footy once, that tells a story. We outscored them, all be it by a couple of point, in the second half. How many goals did they kick from the goal square due to 50m penalties or terrible defending (the Johnson hanger in the 2nd, not one player blocked his run). Attention to detail, being switched on.

It's okay, someone else will do it!  :o

IMO I don't think all the coaches are on the same page. Players always look like they are second guessing

Meanwhile Mason Cox looked like Dean Cox out there.

Thought Cameron vs JSOS was a no contest as well and the Pies gained significant advantage with that matchup.
Hickey, Ladhams and McLean will require two ruckman next game.

Our biggest problem is our best players are not doing any damage despite their stats.
Docherty, Cripps, Walsh and Wetering are our leaders and they show no direction out there. Malthouse said it before the game that Collingwood would show our boys what leadership looks like and he was spot on.

Charlie Curnow has been our best and most consistent player this season, and Saad next best IMO. Pretty much everyone else has either been up and down, or down since R1. I can't put my finger on what malaise is affecting the boys, but gee they look out of sorts. Borderline miraculous that some of our losses haven't been uglier. 

Charlie Curnow has been our best and most consistent player this season, and Saad next best IMO. Pretty much everyone else has either been up and down, or down since R1. I can't put my finger on what malaise is affecting the boys, but gee they look out of sorts. Borderline miraculous that some of our losses haven't been uglier. 

Yep. What's the opposite of 'cohesion?'

Yep. What's the opposite of 'cohesion?'

Disunity.

Our biggest problem is our best players are not doing any damage despite their stats.
Docherty, Cripps, Walsh and Wetering are our leaders and they show no direction out there. Malthouse said it before the game that Collingwood would show our boys what leadership looks like and he was spot on.

What happened to the "building leadership density" that Bolton kept talking about ? Probably took it with him to the Pies when he emptied his desk.

Just watched the 1st half again. Some observations.

JSOS into the ruck cost us at least 3 goals.

Cerra's kick into the forward line, spotting up Durdin, was so dumb I couldn't believe it... guess who Durdin's nearest Rottingwood opponent was? Cox. 1 metre player versus 5 metre player.

The number of times we kicked it to their tallest bloke on the ground (Cox) was astonishing.

We handed Moore a record number of intercepts with predictable/lazy inside 50 kicks, but I understand as there were just no more options other than H and Charles.

Acres foot disposal under pressure gave Rottingwood too many looks.

Ed... too many times - kick'nhope.

Look much better when Charles and H play well apart, eg one of them playing high half forward leading up to the aggot and the other remaining deep.

We did a lot right, just critical disposal errors and/or choice errors.

2 blatant 50s did not go our way.

I don't get the criticisms of our backline, the delivery in waves into our D50 was at times indefensible. The up-field pressure was zilch.

Hollands just doesn't hurt the opposition enough with his disposals.

For the Fluffy Ducks game: Out - Ed, JSOS, Hollands, Young & Durdin
In: TDK (for JSOS), Binns (for Hollands), Kemp (for Young), Cowan (for Ed) & Dow (for Durdin). Dow & Chugga changing midfield/half forward.
(2 small forwards only - Owies & Motlop).

Agree with all those ins and outs, we need to add some youth and exuberance to this group.Just send em care free and let em enjoy footy again, play school yard style for a qtr or two. At the minute, it looks to be a chore for them. Defensively we were poor most of the first and some of the second, we were better after that (ie the address with their line coach suggested that to me at least, something worked). Positioning and body work was terrible early. As I said, I reckon Weiters being so down on confidence is killing us.

Voss presser was pretty good this week.

Wasn't distracted by the media focus on the tall forwards, goal kicking, etc., etc., knows the problems surrounding on-ball defensive pressure, transitions, etc., etc.. You just have to watch our games and observe the lack of instant intensity when we turn it over to get a clear understanding of that, last season we were frantic, this season we drop the head as first reaction.

Voss had a nice fire in the belly I thought, good to see him bristle reminded me of his playing days!

He should get the team living by the Necromongers ideology from The Chronicles of Riddick series, "You keep what you kill!"

How much of last weekend's effort was the result of Mathieson gobbing off, which leaves the club feeling disjointed and sour?

Interesting to see Anthony Pratt at the game, but not surprising given the Pratt Family is actually 50 / 50 Blues & Filth.

Liked Vossy's media after the game - more authentic/himself. He's had a gutfull of poor defensive efforts from the midfield.

POOR defensive efforts from the midfield would be an improvement over what is being offered in recent games.

POOR defensive efforts from the midfield would be an improvement over what is being offered in recent games.

What I find hardest to accept is that by definition we are a bigger bodied slow moving midfield, and skinny runners break our tackles too often and too easily?

When blokes like Cripps, Cerra, Hewett, Kennedy, SoJ, Pitto or Walsh grab someone they should stay grabbed!

For the Fluffy Ducks game: Out - Ed, JSOS, Hollands, Young & Durdin
In: TDK (for JSOS), Binns (for Hollands), Kemp (for Young), Cowan (for Ed) & Dow (for Durdin). Dow & Chugga changing midfield/half forward.

I would omit McGovern ahead of Lewis although I agree that Durdin should get some form in the VFL and that Ed's time is up.  Hollands could probably use a rest but I don't think he deserves to be dropped.

TDK is too talented to waste in the VFL - someone suggested playing him on the opposition's main tall defender (e.g. Moore) - not a bad idea and he could also serve as back-up ruckman - if the MC can't find a place for him they should resign, which they possibly should do anyway.
Kemp should not have been dropped after a couple of decent games and offers more than many others.
I think Binns has talent but I am unsure that he is ready for senior football.
Dow can find the footy but struggles to find a teammate under VFL pressure but very few of his clubmates are doing any better in the AFL - maybe he deserves promotion for effort (despite his limitations) - he certainly shows more than Fisher and Fogarty and many others -

First Rnd this season that I can't find a coaches vote for a Carlton player.

Media verballed the coach and captain by misrepresenting the argy bargy between Cripps and Voss, they used a clip of Voss from 5min into the first to assert it was somehow directly related to the Cripps Voss exchange more than 1/2-hour later. We have to expect that to happen.

Media piling on Weiters and McGovern, but when the opposition move the ball through the midfield like the Filth could, pretty much in a manner without challenge, the defenders have zero chance! That is the media beating up the Voss comments about "defending", comments which have almost nothing to do with the defenders.

When Mitch Robinson did as much to Malthouse it ended his Carlton career.

First Rnd this season that I can't find a coaches vote for a Carlton player.

Media verballed the coach and captain by misrepresenting the argy bargy between Cripps and Voss, they used a clip of Voss from 5min into the first to assert it was somehow directly related to the Cripps Voss exchange more than 1/2-hour later. We have to expect that to happen.

Media piling on Weiters and McGovern, but when the opposition move the ball through the midfield like the Filth could, pretty much in a manner without challenge, the defenders have zero chance! That is the media beating up the Voss comments about "defending", comments which have almost nothing to do with the defenders.

When Mitch Robinson did as much to Malthouse it ended his Carlton career.

Weitering was terrible on Mihocek and couldnt keep up with him , his form has been down like Young for a while and his normally reliable kicking has deserted him.
McGovern didnt like the heat in battle or responsibility and his contesting work was embarrassing imho....when he put in the short steps and threw half an arm out in a feeble way he should have been dragged and told some home truths. Rather play Kemp, Cowan or Cincotta at least they will give effort and try.
I feel sorry for Voss having to front the media and defend players who wont give effort.....

McGovern didnt like the heat in battle or responsibility and his contesting work was embarrassing imho....when he put in the short steps and threw half an arm out in a feeble way he should have been dragged and told some home truths. Rather play Kemp, Cowan or Cincotta at least they will give effort and try.
I feel sorry for Voss having to front the media and defend players who wont give effort.....

Like x 100. Players who don't go 100% cannot be played, Acres and Motlop are on the border there as well.

On the kicking thing, not just our D50 but everybody, hardly any movement across the field, our slower heavier types are gasping for air trying to keep up with the zippy opposition, no movement equals no easy targets and that only makes turnovers more likely.

I watched at the weekend and saw a bunch of junior football rubbish. SoJ standing flat footed to receive and he's a 100 gamer! Motlop and Durdin dragging opponents into the space of Charlie or McKay on the lead. Loopy balloon like handballs in chains of play like the pill is made of concrete, leaving opponents time to close down space, similar kicks over just 15m or 20m, and missing 20m targets a plenty.

Guarding space with hands on hips and opponents 5m away, instead of working to create space for your team-mates by dragging your opponent somewhere the ball won't be.

I must have a weird imagination

I've imagined that Harry must have fragile forehead syndrome.

It seems every second week BigH comes off the ground bleeding profusely from the eyebrow after a marking contest, without an associated free kick, must have headbutt a moth in flight. Similar troubles to aircraft at altitude!

He must also suffer short arm syndrome, at least not long enough arms to get a free for a chop of the arms, which is ironic given Charlie gets some of the same. Perhaps Harry just isn't tall enough! Mind you the Filth got 3 or 4 goals from the same, of course they do they were much more obvious than the 200 + Infinity centimetre player getting a punch in the elbow(aka ear)!

btw., Some of you may have noticed Cripps chopped across the arms twice in marking contests, no free.

Our list is not good enough ( I wish people stop saying this )  the last 3 weeks prove it / last year. We need Austin to add some missing pieces to take next step . Trade / draft picks we need to nail them . 

Coaches' votes :

10 Darcy Moore (COLL)
8 Josh Daicos (COLL)
6 Brody Mihocek (COLL)
4 Scott Pendlebury (COLL)
1 Jordan De Goey (COLL)
1 Steele Sidebottom (COLL)

Ouch.

Our biggest problem is our best players are not doing any damage despite their stats.
Docherty, Cripps, Walsh and Wetering are our leaders and they show no direction out there. Malthouse said it before the game that Collingwood would show our boys what leadership looks like and he was spot on.

Agree.  A good example of brain fade by a senior player occurred in the second half when Docherty took possession in the centre following a turnover.  He ran to the half forward line and then, under no pressure, unloaded a long bomb deep into the forward line.

There was not one Carlton player within 40 metres but there were three Collingwood defenders, one of whom gratefully took a chest mark and drove the ball straight into attack.

I feel sorry for Voss.  He is being let down by senior players not setting an example for the team.

Agree.  A good example of brain fade by a senior player occurred in the second half when Docherty took possession in the centre following a turnover.  He ran to the half forward line and then, under no pressure, unloaded a long bomb deep into the forward line.

There was not one Carlton player within 40 metres but there were three Collingwood defenders, one of whom gratefully took a chest mark and drove the ball straight into attack.

I feel sorry for Voss.  He is being let down by senior players not setting an example for the team.

I'm pretty sure that Charlie had made  lead to about the 45 and was clear but was ignored.

That's my point. Docherty did not look to pick out  Carlton forwards, who were all gathered around the half forward line, but just blazed away.

Also, something that disgusted me on a personal level was how much our fans were bagging our players, and their approach at the actual game.  I was sitting in Row H.  Bottom deck behind the goals, and whilst I face palmed and groaned a lot about our method, the idea of a supporter is to support.  In good and bad times.  Not just bag our players incessently.  Its not on. 

There was one guy who was absolutely gushing about how good collingwood were, and I found myself looking at him, and wondering who he was there to support and found myself checking his beanie and club logo multiple times to double check.  Also, hearing frustrated fans line up our cheer squad was something else that I thought was quite poor.

If you don't like whats going on in the cheer squad, pay your money and front up.  Or start a chant somewhere.  Having a go at people is not on IMHO and I dont see the point of rocking up to bag our players and wax lyrically about how good the opposition are.  For anyone interested I was in M2 in the Shane Warne stand right next to our cheer squad.

Nice post Thry.

There was one guy who was absolutely gushing about how good collingwood were, and I found myself looking at him, and wondering who he was there to support and found myself checking his beanie and club logo multiple times to double check.  Also, hearing frustrated fans line up our cheer squad was something else that I thought was quite poor.

The problem is I was doing the same in terms of 'gushing'  with the occasional profanity thrown in.
Especially when Moore got near the ball.
They were a lot of things we just weren't.

Getting the ball and effort were good (OK) from our side but....
System, 'team'-work and good execution were not.

Coaches' votes :

10 Darcy Moore (COLL)
8 Josh Daicos (COLL)
6 Brody Mihocek (COLL)
4 Scott Pendlebury (COLL)
1 Jordan De Goey (COLL)
1 Steele Sidebottom (COLL)

Ouch.

For the first time this season I have nothing to complain about, the coaches didn't miss a beat!

For the first time this season I have nothing to complain about, the coaches didn't miss a beat!

Same old names doing the same number on us as per usual.....

I'm pretty sure that Charlie had made  lead to about the 45 and was clear but was ignored.

Acres was burnt twice at least, he ran into the F50 and was standing on his own waving and he was ignored in favour of Charlie or Harry outnumbered. Again, poor decision making with that last kick. Moore and Co feasted on the incoming ball because they knew where it was going every time. I know we say the smalls and mids dont kick enough goals but FFS give them a look at least.

Maybe our cunning plan was to pump up the Filth's tyres so as to set them up to fall?

I'll be far more upset if we fail to hurt CheatsFC than losing to the Filth.

btw., It might be time to gloat. But some of you may recall I posted worriedly about the AFL changes to rules that were almost designed to counter the list we've built. What hope do recruiters and list managers have, when you build a list for one game style and it's ruled out by the Big House with just a few carefully chosen tweaks?

If we ignore games against Wet Toast, is scoring up or down for 2023 compared to 2022?

Acres was burnt twice at least, he ran into the F50 and was standing on his own waving and he was ignored in favour of Charlie or Harry outnumbered. Again, poor decision making with that last kick. Moore and Co feasted on the incoming ball because they knew where it was going every time. I know we say the smalls and mids dont kick enough goals but FFS give them a look at least.

What you are seeing are guys who have been listening too much to the media, and as a result they are starting to play selfish footy trying in vain to preserve their own careers. None of the stragglers want to be tagged as the player who burns either Coleman Medallist, so they do what the media and court of public opinion asks, whether it's good for the team or not!

Going to be tough to reset this mindset while blokes like Mathieson keeps throwing rocks.

What you are seeing are guys who have been listening too much to the media, and as a result they are starting to play selfish footy trying in vein to preserve their own careers. None of the stragglers want to be tagged as the player who burns either Coleman Medallist, so they do what the media and court of public opinion asks, whether it's good for the team or not!

This is where Malthouse was spot on in the article he wrote the other day, our on field leadership is not up to scratch. We speak of blokes like Newman and Doc wanting to, or having the potential to, coach post footy career. Or Weiters who supposedly has a very high footy IQ. None of them offered correctional advice to their team mates with respect to constantly kicking it to Charlie and Harry despite better options available (unless of course the instruction from the powers that be is to kick it to only them at all costs - which I doubt).

Maybe our cunning plan was to pump up the Filth's tyres so as to set them up to fall?

I'll be far more upset if we fail to hurt CheatsFC than losing to the Filth.

btw., It might be time to gloat. But some of you may recall I posted worriedly about the AFL changes to rules that were almost designed to counter the list we've built. What hope do recruiters and list managers have, when you build a list for one game style and it's ruled out by the Big House with just a few carefully chosen tweaks?

If we ignore games against Wet Toast, is scoring up or down for 2023 compared to 2022?

I thought you gave up the tin foil hats?

Thats about your biggest one yet.

I thought you gave up the tin foil hats?

Thats about your biggest one yet.

It doesn't matter which team it is, when you continually change the rules you have to hurt some and advantage others.

For example, last season we made the most effective use of the Stand Rule, I doubt you would have heard us complain about it, but it was basically kyboshed because I think it was De Goey who got sucked in by Doc and the AFL Media went into uproar!

We've got a Midfield built on big bodied Mids who are now all scared to tackle, we can't tackle yet opposition defenders can keep punching BigH in the side of the head reprisal free!

We've got a young ruck who is a jumping jack, he can get his knee in the opponents chest, so the spuds who can't jump or are afraid to jump complained and complained and his action is now outlawed!

Last season was the best season of all round AFL football and scoring we've had for decades, why change anything, they changed a bunch of rules to cater for dick3ads?

It doesn't matter which team it is, when you continually change the rules you have to hurt some and advantage others.

For example, last season we made the most effective use of the Stand Rule, I doubt you would have heard us complain about it, but it was basically kyboshed because I think it was De Goey who got sucked in by Doc and the AFL Media went into uproar!

We've got a Midfield built on big bodied Mids who are now all scared to tackle, we can't tackle yet opposition defenders can keep punching BigH in the side of the head reprisal free!

We've got a young ruck who is a jumping jack, he can get his knee in the opponents chest, so the spuds who can't jump or are afraid to jump complained and complained and his action is now outlawed!

Last season was the best season of all round AFL football and scoring we've had for decades, why change anything, they changed a bunch of rules to cater for dick3ads?

So the AFL changed the rules so our ruck who is playing 2's can't be advantaged.
Whereas the rules actually help our #1 ruck who is playing.

....and this is somehow proof of the AFL screwing us over?

What data have you got to support your assertion that we made the best use of the stand rule?
What data do you have to prove our midfielders are too scared to tackle?

For someone who cannot comprehend how 'hitouts to advantage' are calculated, because you don't understand what an 'advantage' is, you make some wildly accurate claims based on zero evidence and logic.

From the Heraldsun

So here is the weirdest stat in footy. Carlton ranks No. 1 in the comp for contested possession differential but only 11th for clearance differential.

The Blues are third in the comp for winning first possession from a stoppage but are 16th from converting it into a pure clearance.

So the Blues win the first possession more than nearly every other team but can’t turn it into a clearance.

I get fans think based on your posts you (@Kruddler) are a Pitto booster, but I realise what you are really doing is protecting SoJ. You need Pitto 1st rucking because if TDK plays and rests forward it won't be Cripps getting the chop from the F50 extra tall role, we can all see it coming, SoJ gets squeezed out, this is the way.

If we do what fans want and put a bullet in McGovern to keep SoJ via some weird and speculative reshuffle , we might was well shoot our own foot.

FFS, now some are calling for Weiters head, and SoJ just roles on unsupervised! :o

Personally I hope I'm wrong, I hope SoJ sticks fat at Carlton, comes good and enables us to rub his old man's face in it, but it's a wish not an expectation!

So the Blues win the first possession more than nearly every other team but can’t turn it into a clearance.

Some fans will think it's our ruck doing that, while most opposition fans think we've the best or one of the best Midfields in the competition, and they laugh at the prospect the ruck even matters!

Our blokes win the footy, then waste it!

We only need a ruck who puts on a handful of blocks a game and some of those stoppage battles become effective clearances. The last thing our Mids need is a traffic cone ruck allowing them to be pulverised for winning the footy.

From the Heraldsun

So here is the weirdest stat in footy. Carlton ranks No. 1 in the comp for contested possession differential but only 11th for clearance differential.

The Blues are third in the comp for winning first possession from a stoppage but are 16th from converting it into a pure clearance.

So the Blues win the first possession more than nearly every other team but can’t turn it into a clearance.

Thanks for posting. Hard work to get the aggot, which doesn't lead to anything, and you wonder why the players look bummed out.

I get fans think based on your posts you (@Kruddler) are a Pitto booster, but I realise what you are really doing is protecting SoJ. You need Pitto 1st rucking because if TDK plays and rests forward it won't be Cripps getting the chop from the F50 extra tall role, we can all see it coming, SoJ gets squeezed out, this is the way.

If we do what fans want and put a bullet in McGovern to keep SoJ via some weird and speculative reshuffle , we might was well shoot our own foot.

FFS, now some are calling for Weiters head, and SoJ just roles on unsupervised! :o

Personally I hope I'm wrong, I hope SoJ sticks fat at Carlton, comes good and enables us to rub his old man's face in it, but it's a wish not an expectation!

Who hurt you LP? Who hurt you??

Your trust issues run deep.

I don't know how i can say it any other way, maybe i'll try heiroglyphics??
I compare Pittonets stats because it is the ONLY stat that compares apples with apples.
If he plays 10%, or 100% of the ruck, it doesn't matter.
If he has a backup ruck that is SOJ, TDK, or Eddie Betts, it doesn't matter.
The ruck stats are able to be looked at for every contest he is in, and see the result of every contest he is in.
You cannot do that with anyone else in any other position.

This is a fact i found out years ago, and when i looked into it, i was pleasantly suprised how well he was at it. Further to my surprise, he continues to not only keep up that high standard, but improve upon it. He is in the elite category for hitouts to advantage based on % of ruck contests he is in.

This is NOT a 4-year 'long-con' of misdirection to provide some kind of shield for SOS.
I reckon if you go back a couple years you'll see me saying he was not in our best 22. Probably said TDK was.
Now, unfortunately TDK has stagnated and SOS has proven to be somehwat handy around the ground by comparison....while not performing only slightly worse in the ruck.

Sometimes you do WAY too much reading between the lines.
Sometimes, you completely ignore whats written.
This is one of those times.

I get fans think based on your posts you (@Kruddler) are a Pitto booster, but I realise what you are really doing is protecting SoJ. You need Pitto 1st rucking because if TDK plays and rests forward it won't be Cripps getting the chop from the F50 extra tall role, we can all see it coming, SoJ gets squeezed out, this is the way.

If we do what fans want and put a bullet in McGovern to keep SoJ via some weird and speculative reshuffle , we might was well shoot our own foot.

FFS, now some are calling for Weiters head, and SoJ just roles on unsupervised! :o

Personally I hope I'm wrong, I hope SoJ sticks fat at Carlton, comes good and enables us to rub his old man's face in it, but it's a wish not an expectation!

Jack probably needs a rest in the twos as he is completely out of form and McGovern needs a lesson in attacking the ball properly in the twos. Problem is as always we dont have a lot of depth with players knocking down the door in the twos and imho the main one is Kemp to replace McGovern. Id include TDK this week which probably means Jack having to kick the dew of the ground in the twos. I havent understood the MC's logic all year but I think we are at the stage where they might have to be a bit more lateral with their thinking and more inventive with selections in consultation with the coach who deserves better than what the players are giving as a collective.

From the Heraldsun

So here is the weirdest stat in footy. Carlton ranks No. 1 in the comp for contested possession differential but only 11th for clearance differential.

The Blues are third in the comp for winning first possession from a stoppage but are 16th from converting it into a pure clearance.

So the Blues win the first possession more than nearly every other team but can’t turn it into a clearance.

A fact that shouldn't surprise many people (except for old tin foil).

Pittonet gives us first use more than just about anyone.
Of course we have a contested bull who can win the 50-50 ball about as good as anyone too.
Our other mids are no slouches in this area either, so it stands to reason we manage to get our hands on it first pretty quickly.

The problem arises that we are under so much pressure, and lack significant leg speed to break away, and are such poor kicks that we struggle to capitalise on this.

Again, this shouldn't be such a shock.
Do we want Cripps kicking the ball? No.
Do we want Ed kicking the ball? No.
Can we kick to advantage of our players? No.

Tada, stats say exactly this.

 :o

https://youtu.be/TC-o_YRgBp4

Pathetic effort. Pies toyed with us and then took the foot off the gas.

Totally agree. It looked to me that the Collingwood players treated us with contempt and new that they had to do nothing to win. Why because they we would give the ball straight back to them when we had it and we would kick it long in to the forward line to our best player (sorry) their best defender in Moore.

https://omny.fm/shows/drive-with-tom-elliott/the-call-to-3aw-from-an-irate-carlton-fan-that-cau

https://omny.fm/shows/drive-with-tom-elliott/the-call-to-3aw-from-an-irate-carlton-fan-that-cau

Sigh. The worst type of supporter. Please get a refund, cancel your membership, and go support another club. it's only football, and your health is way more important than that.

https://omny.fm/shows/drive-with-tom-elliott/the-call-to-3aw-from-an-irate-carlton-fan-that-cau

Good ol Snapper.

Sigh. The worst type of supporter. Please get a refund, cancel your membership, and go support another club. it's only football, and your health is way more important than that.

Its not the simple, footy is everything to some people. People are passionate, people are sick of the lack of success. Its not how I'd react but I get it.

Its not the simple, footy is everything to some people. People are passionate, people are sick of the lack of success. Its not how I'd react but I get it.

No doubt there are different perspectives. Some say he's passionate. I say he's ill informed, presumptuous and irrational, and endangering his own health. It's like I said earlier - some folks seem to be willing participants in an abusive relationship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGP8awxPQcA

No doubt there are different perspectives. Some say he's passionate. I say he's ill informed, presumptuous and irrational, and endangering his own health. It's like I said earlier - some folks seem to be willing participants in an abusive relationship.

The funny thing is he wouldn't rate us as 'true' supporters.
He'd say we don't care enough.
That we accept mediocrity and are the worst thing that could happen to the club.
There are a whole range of emotions associated with supporting a football club.
Who is right and who is wrong is in the eyes of the beholder.
At the moment I suspect he's not Pat Malone.
We'll have a problem when there are even more Pats
And blokes like Tom Elliott will kick it along.

The funny thing is he wouldn't rate us as 'true' supporters.
He'd say we don't care enough.
That we accept mediocrity and are the worst thing that could happen to the club.
There are a whole range of emotions associated with supporting a football club.
Who is right and who is wrong is in the eyes of the beholder.
At the moment I suspect he's not Pat Malone.
We'll have a problem when there are even more Pats
And blokes like Tom Elliott will kick it along.

I agree. He probably does think those things. But I'm not convinced that type of behaviour is anything other than selfish. I don't believe it leads to anything good. I don't believe it represents any real understanding of football clubs, or football players or football in general. It's just a selfish vent. Supporters need to accept their agency and be more responsible. Those types of outbursts lead to coach sackings and more. People from the club read the temperature of the room from many sources : forums like this, direct contact from fans, talkback radio (God forbid) etc.

I agree. He probably does think those things. But I'm not convinced that type of behaviour is anything other than selfish. I don't believe it leads to anything good. I don't believe it represents any real understanding of football clubs, or football players or football in general. It's just a selfish vent. Supporters need to accept their agency and be more responsible. Those types of outbursts lead to coach sackings and more. People from the club read the temperature of the room from many sources : forums like this, direct contact from fans, talkback radio (God forbid) etc.

I don't understand your saying it's a selfish vent.  He sounds like a long-time supporter who has bought into the current message of the club that we are finally on the up and up, and based on that information he has parted with hard earned cash for membership.

And has the club delivered?  Definitely not.  The Collingwood game was more of the same litany of basic skill errors, the usual brain fades etc, delivered by a team that had no pride and for the most part seemed detached from proceedings.

Fans such as Snapper help fill the financial coffers of clubs.  If the Carlton side keeps presenting at future matches with the same apathetic attitude then the club may get a rude awakening at the end of the season when it calls on members to dip into their wallets for next year's membership.

I don't understand your saying it's a selfish vent.  He sounds like a long-time supporter who has bought into the current message of the club that we are finally on the up and up, and based on that information he has parted with hard earned cash for membership.

And has the club delivered?  Definitely not.  The Collingwood game was more of the same litany of basic skill errors, the usual brain fades etc, delivered by a team that had no pride and for the most part seemed detached from proceedings.

Fans such as Snapper help fill the financial coffers of clubs.  If the Carlton side keeps presenting at future matches with the same apathetic attitude then the club may get a rude awakening at the end of the season when it calls on members to dip into their wallets for next year's membership.

I don't agree that the players are apathetic and I don't believe they lack pride. And I don't believe that the genuine efforts of dozens upon dozens of people at the club should be denigrated by that sort of nonsense. There is no doubt in my mind that the players and coaches carry the hurt way more than armchair experts. One must legitimately ask what a membership fee, entry to the game etc., actually buys you. It doesn't buy you the right to spout dribble, or to insult and belittle others and treat them like sh1t.

In a commercial, competitive environment, clubs are in the business of selling hope. Hope can be the allure of playing finals, it can be the allure of a top coach, young No1 draft pick etc. Clubs will always try to give supporters some reason to believe. You won't ever find a club that will tell you this season will be a write off, don't bother, come back next year. I don't believe everything the club says - why can't Mr Snapper apply some very basic critical thinking skills and wait until he sees some evidence of improvement before he parts with is hard earned ? Oh wait, he's from talkback land, so.............

I am 100% convinced that players, coaches and clubs in general must find supporters to be a mixed blessing.

There is no doubt in my mind that the players and coaches carry the hurt way more than armchair experts.

I'm not sure about that part.
For some supporters the Carlton football club is a large part of their life from their earliest memories until the day they die.
They'll perform 'lucky' rituals on match days, cry after losses, name their pets and children for favourite players, struggle to go to work on Mondays after a loss and tip over the water cooler if someone says the wrong thing.
The club song will be played at their funeral and they'll be buried in their polos, jumpers and scarfs.
(But that's just me) ;D

Players and coaches are just employees.
Many supported or played for other sides before they came to Carlton, some will play for other teams when they leave.
Some will eventually become rusted on.
They'll be the face of Carlton, they'll treasure the memories and turn up to flag reunions, but in a lot of cases the bonds they form will be for other team-mates rather than the club.
They'll hurt in losses for that reason, not for the love of a jumper.
Some will have very short careers.
Their feelings for the club will be transient.
They'll laugh with the opposition after games, while the fans cry in the stands.

I don't agree that the players are apathetic and I don't believe they lack pride. And I don't believe that the genuine efforts of dozens upon dozens of people at the club should be denigrated by that sort of nonsense. There is no doubt in my mind that the players and coaches carry the hurt way more than armchair experts. One must legitimately ask what a membership fee, entry to the game etc., actually buys you. It doesn't buy you the right to spout dribble, or to insult and belittle others and treat them like sh1t.

In a commercial, competitive environment, clubs are in the business of selling hope. Hope can be the allure of playing finals, it can be the allure of a top coach, young No1 draft pick etc. Clubs will always try to give supporters some reason to believe. You won't ever find a club that will tell you this season will be a write off, don't bother, come back next year. I don't believe everything the club says - why can't Mr Snapper apply some very basic critical thinking skills and wait until he sees some evidence of improvement before he parts with is hard earned ? Oh wait, he's from talkback land, so.............

I am 100% convinced that players, coaches and clubs in general must find supporters to be a mixed blessing.

Let's agree to disagree.

Carlton has a paid up membership of some 80 thousand.  I believe that they believe membership entitles them to entry into a ground, no more, no less.

 Whether they cheer, clap, jeer, shout at  the umpire, or opposition players or even their own team players, contact radio hosts, newspapers etc to give their opinions is totally unrelated to their membership.

Their actions are no different from those supporters, also as passionate, who do not have memberships but attend matches on a regular basis.

As for Mr Snapper and his failure to apply some very basic critical thinking skills, probably it is caused by what you say the clubs are selling - hope.   In the Carlton context that word could be replaced by 'wishful thinking'.  For people to buy into "hope" or "wishful thinking" occasionally requires the suspension of basic critical thinking skills. 

As for the true believer, the supporter who turns up to every match decked out in jumper and beanie and believing against all the odds that Carlton will win each game, basic critical thinking skills have never been a prerequisite.

I agree with you that players, coaches and clubs in general must find supporters to be a mixed blessing, but without them the AFL would not survive.

I am 100% convinced that players, coaches and clubs in general must find supporters to be a mixed blessing.

This may be the differential between the marketing and football departments, one profits from hope and expectation, the other needs performance.

Historically, at Carlton it looks to me like marketing rule$, profit before performance. It's the only thing that explains the coaches getting it in the neck so frequently. This recent outburst from Mathieson confirms to me that the Old Carlton still hasn't learnt it lessons and let go, they think they can abuse, bully and buy the way to success, pretty much like those callers!

This is why the Filth have it over pretty much every other club. Rain, hail or shine the Filth supporters support the players, it's drummed into them from early days you don't sledge your own. They turn on their own for sprouting the type of vitriol some Carlton fans want to openly propagate. But it took 30 years of Colliwobbles to beat the negativity and vitriol out of them.

Maybe we can learn from that, or we can ignore it and perhaps suffer the same fate, but there is no buying or bullying our way out of this, those days are long long gone!

I'm not sure about that part.
For some supporters the Carlton football club is a large part of their life from their earliest memories until the day they die.
They'll perform 'lucky' rituals on match days, cry after losses, name their pets and children for favourite players, struggle to go to work on Mondays after a loss and tip over the water cooler if someone says the wrong thing.
The club song will be played at their funeral and they'll be buried in their polos, jumpers and scarfs.
(But that's just me) ;D

Players and coaches are just employees.
Many supported or played for other sides before they came to Carlton, some will play for other teams when they leave.
Some will eventually become rusted on.
They'll be the face of Carlton, they'll treasure the memories and turn up to flag reunions, but in a lot of cases the bonds they form will be for other team-mates rather than the club.
They'll hurt in losses for that reason, not for the love of a jumper.
Some will have very short careers.
Their feelings for the club will be transient.
They'll laugh with the opposition after games, while the fans cry in the stands.

The behaviours in your first paragraph have a lot in common with organised religion - that's the first thing I thought of. The second thing is that if the right (or should I say the wrong) circumstances are all in play at the same time, Mr Snapper becomes Mr Snapped, and loses his nut completely, and does something drastic like those South American soccer fans. There's no invisible bubble that protects AFL from soccer. Tribal identity markers are very real (not necessarily based on ethnicity), the same passions are aroused, the same behaviours reinforced and expected.

And I disagree with your last point. Players and coaches at Carlton give significantly more time (physical, mental, emotional) than any fan, even if it's by necessity. Most players that move on are either retired, traded, or delisted. A small number of course move because they want to. And most coaches only leave because they get sacked. Fans focus on whinging and whining and making sure the world knows how much the club hurts them. Players and coaches focus on making themselves and their team mates better. Try rocking up to work and having 50, 60, 70, 80,000 fans telling you you're a piece of cr@p, you're only in it for the money, you don't deserve your pay cheque etc., and see how you like it

Players and coaches are professional, and they have to play the game. Of course they will talk about how great their new club is. They can hardly say otherwise.

The behaviours in your first paragraph have a lot in common with organised religion - that's the first thing I thought of. The second thing is that if the right (or should I say the wrong) circumstances are all in play at the same time, Mr Snapper becomes Mr Snapped, and loses his nut completely, and does something drastic like those South American soccer fans. There's no invisible bubble that protects AFL from soccer. Tribal identity markers are very real (not necessarily based on ethnicity), the same passions are aroused, the same behaviours reinforced and expected.

And I disagree with your last point. Players and coaches at Carlton give significantly more time (physical, mental, emotional) than any fan, even if it's by necessity. Most players that move on are either retired, traded, or delisted. A small number of course move because they want to. And most coaches only leave because they get sacked. Fans focus on whinging and whining and making sure the world knows how much the club hurts them. Players and coaches focus on making themselves and their team mates better. Try rocking up to work and having 50, 60, 70, 80,000 fans telling you you're a piece of cr@p, you're only in it for the money, you don't deserve your pay cheque etc., and see how you like it

Players and coaches are professional, and they have to play the game. Of course they will talk about how great their new club is. They can hardly say otherwise.

We'll have to agree to disagree..because I think you're wrong on every point.
Your concentrating on the negative aspects of being a supporter way too much.
Supporters come in all shapes and sizes and the way they support differs wildly.

The behaviours I described in the first post were a bit of a joke based on extremes, but some quite sane and sensible supporters do actually engage in some of those behaviours.
We played the club's song at my Mum's funeral because the club and game were a large part of her life.
 
Football is a 'religion' for some folks, but religion in itself isn't a bad thing, and fills a spot in a lot of folk's lives. There are bad 'religions' but footy isn't one of them.

We don't have the extremes of violence, never had, despite nearly 200 years of Australian football and that supporter passion has been evident all along. One of the reasons for that is the game moves so quickly with lots of scoring, and the fans can have highs and lows within minutes and are pretty much free within reason to express their joy and disappointment, unlike soccer where there are often long pauses between scores.

And while a lot of ex-Carlton footballers are followers of the club, while they play and even once they finish their love, passion and hurt at the losses would be matched by the fans.
I suspect our guys are already talking, and focussed, about Sydney (I hope so) while three days later, we supporters are still suffering from the Collingwood loss.

My current position is similar to a coach like Hardwick. You back your players and coaches in, and defend them as best you can. Give them the BOD, and trust that they are motivated by doing their best for all stakeholders, until it becomes evidently clear they're not. You can be passionate in this way, much like Hardwick was, and that's a much better way of using passion than spouting baseless, negative ill informed drivel on talk back IMO

Sunday was our worst effort for a while. Couple of senior players shirked contests that you would have to consider dropping them for.

My current position is similar to a coach like Hardwick. You back your players and coaches in, and defend them as best you can. Give them the BOD, and trust that they are motivated by doing their best for all stakeholders, until it becomes evidently clear they're not. You can be passionate in this way, much like Hardwick was, and that's a much better way of using passion than spouting baseless, negative ill informed drivel on talk back IMO

That's good you feel that way Paul
But you won't get that across the board.
You can only dictate your own behaviour.
You can't tell people how to support or what is 'good supporting' and 'bad supporting'.
They just won't listen to you, and it's a behaviour you won't change.

With over 80,000 members and probably twice as many supporters you'll get a huge range of behaviour.
For every supporter who says "They're our boys, we have to support them through thick and thin" you'll get the 'Snapper'
But at the end of the day when they hold the cup up, there will be little difference in the joy each group are feeling.

https://omny.fm/shows/drive-with-tom-elliott/the-call-to-3aw-from-an-irate-carlton-fan-that-cau

I heard that clown ring Gerard Whately on SEN too.

That's good you feel that way Paul
But you won't get that across the board.
You can only dictate your own behaviour.
You can't tell people how to support or what is 'good supporting' and 'bad supporting'.
They just won't listen to you…………..

.


I can certainly express an opinion about what I think is poor supporter behaviour, and if the Snappers of this world want to come right back at me and tell me my way of supporting sucks, I have no issue with that.

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I can certainly express an opinion about what I think is poor supporter behaviour, and if the Snappers of this world want to come right back at me and tell me my way of supporting sucks, I have no issue with that.

Pauly trust me, there are more Snappers amongst the rank and file the there are "Paulys", by a very long way.

I heard that clown ring Gerard Whately on SEN too.

Snapper is normally a very good caller on both SEN and AW, he lost the plot the day/night, he is not normally like that and far from a clown.

Pauly trust me, there are more Snappers amongst the rank and file the there are "Paulys", by a very long way.

Yes, I think that's true. Supporting a football club doesn't mandate, but certainly encourages, emotional connections and emotional responses. But there is a line IMO.......

Snapper is normally a very good caller on both SEN and AW, he lost the plot the day/night, he is not normally like that and far from a clown.

That's good to hear. I'd hate to think that was his default position.

only 1 thing left to do Guys and that is to beat them when we play them again and HOPEFULLY cost them top spot.

I've heard Snapper a good few times also. That call seems the exception rather than the rule. A passionate Bluebagger... we're all a bit, let's say 'overboard' when we're emotional and perhaps hurting.

Snapper is normally a very good caller on both SEN and AW, he lost the plot the day/night, he is not normally like that and far from a clown.

Guys like Snapper, Tommy from Roville and half a dozen others are legends in their own lunch boxes, going from station to station with their opinions, loving the sound of their own voices. They don't consider themselves contributors to the programs, they think they are part of the program.

I think we all have our frustrations at how the team is performing.

I'll go back to our free agents not giving the club a sniff and costing us a rich penny.

I mean TDK has a future in the game but some of these recruits is costing spots as well.