Friday night: we haven't played well at night recently.
Friday night: we haven't played well at night recently.
Playing at night might be the least of our recent problems. Not confident in this game.
We played the best team in the competition and I think Sydney right now is to our level and should win it.
I just hope we learnt something when we played them in the preseason game and don't get beaten by what we know.
Unlike the Pies game where we had no chance, I think this game is 50/50. Both sides are in average form, and with our big, slow moving mids and scrubby disposal, the smaller ground should help rather than hinder us.
I think we’re now beyond plastering over the cracks and need something more radical to change our fortunes and more player team meetings or contrite public apologies wont change a thing.
Facts are that our defence and mids are way too slow and our free agents are a bust. McGovern, Martin & Williams have all been beyond disappointing for different reasons.
Ideas
- Mckay back, Weitering forward
- TDK into the ruck
- Kemp third tall forward
- Dow in and Walsh to the wing
SOS, MCGovern, Acres out
The 3 players above have been butchering the ball for weeks. In addition to lacking skills, SOS and Acres are just too slow, whilst McGovern has had enough time and has never prepared well enough - it’s time to move on.
I think we will win this easily.
I have tipped against us the past few weeks so I’m not blinded by our inadequacies at all.
To me there is something off about how they’re playing - watching the team play this year has felt like the bad old times. Last year on so many occasions I couldn’t believe my eyes on how well and skilful we played. Which to me says the skills are there, the utilisation is not.
So whatever they changed up this year, change it back quick smart and work out another way to improve our deficiencies.
Think we’ll win by 6 goals.
I think we’re now beyond plastering over the cracks and need something more radical to change our fortunes and more team meetings or public apologies is not going to change a thing.
Facts are that our defence and mids are way too slow and our free agents are a bust. McGovern, Acres, Martin & Williams have all been beyond disappointing for different reasons.
Ideas
- Mckay back, Weitering forward
- TDK into the ruck
- Kemp third tall
- Dow in and Walsh to the wing
SOS, MCGovern, Acres out
The 3 players above have been butchering the ball for weeks. McGovern has had enough time, time move on.
Interesting you say the three butchered the ball, I agree about previous weeks but Acres ran at 96DE% for his 25 touches (of which 24 are listed as effective) which is outstanding. Gov at 75% but only touched it 8 times (2 marks all day)and SOS at 50% for his 12 touches. It was Govs worst game for us this year I reckon. When he is not marking (or rather intercept marking) and pin pointing passes out of defence, like Weitering he is next to useless for us.
I doubt they'll give up on Gov after one poor game, our defence was abysmal for a large part of the first half yesterday. I sat on level 2 behind the goals we were defending in that first qtr and they were all over the place. Losing their man, poor handovers, mis match after mismatch the Coll fwds were licking their chops at how poor we were at maintaining structure down back (which was a strength last year). Poor old Weiters is a shadow of his former self at the minute, I really felt for him yesterday. He just panics about what to do when the ball comes near him, I could see every one of those instances unfolding at the end I was sitting at.
Ball movement, moneyball kicks and small forwards having an impact is letting us down.
When ball is in dispute we do well - when we have it the method going forward is a shambles and need to improve quickly.
I think we will win this easily.
I have tipped against us the past few weeks so I’m not blinded by our inadequacies at all.
To me there is something off about how they’re playing - watching the team play this year has felt like the bad old times. Last year on so many occasions I couldn’t believe my eyes on how well and skilful we played. Which to me says the skills are there, the utilisation is not.
So whatever they changed up this year, change it back quick smart and work out another way to improve our deficiencies.
Think we’ll win by 6 goals.
I'm sort of with you there Mick, rather than the skills themselves, its the decision making and running patterns that are bad. Yesterday really highlighted how off the mark we are in running patterns. I commented in the post game how they run in in pairs (min) and surrounded our ball carries. Our running in groups is largely non existent and I think thats due to fear of leaving their opponent too much space in the event of a turnover. Another thing that irks me is how stationary our blokes remain when we have the ball. Get on the move quickly FFS, then turn around and look at the team mate with the ball. So often our backs are to the play. There was one instance yesterday in the reserves game where Caddy ran along the wing/HFF, gathered and centered the ball beautifully but the recipient had his back to the ball carrier and lost it in flight. We do that stuff too often in the 1s also.
If we can just tidy up this stuff, I think some results will go our way.
Kemp, TDK and Dow for starters. Maybe Binns.
Have a spell:
Hewitt
McG
Ed
And "deadly" Motlop.
It is bewildering how far our blokes have slipped in form confidence and game structure over a PS.
Out: Ed, McGovern, Weitering & Hollands
In: Dow, Kemp, TDK & Binns
SOS to play back, Dow high half fwd swapping with Kennedy and Binns for Hollands on the wing. All goes to crap, TDK and SOS swap.
More intuition and initiative being shown in this forum than a so-called "professional" club.
I knew we were in trouble when they picked Ed. When in trouble just shuffle the same old deck chairs in the Titanic syndrome.
Memo CFC; these blokes aren't the solution, they're the bloody problem.
Out: Ed, McGovern, Weitering & Hollands
In: Dow, Kemp, TDK & Binns
SOS to play back, Dow high half fwd swapping with Kennedy and Binns for Hollands on the wing. All goes to crap, TDK and SOS swap.
If you were basing selection on form in the 2s, I think those 4 definitely deserve a crack. The small SCG will suit Dow to T in the centre. If not Binns, Moo should come in, thought he played well in the 2s also.
Totally agree with others that the 3 small forwards thing is an abject failure.
Durdin, and it pains me to admit this, just doesn't look up to it too often - a weekly passenger. Out for the Fluffy Ducks game.
Motlop looks better up the field.
TDK in for JSOS. JSOS is not a threatening 3rd tall, just too slow. Time to build his tank in the Magoos as an inside mid.
Gov as the 3rd tall up forward, a Mihocek type.
Kemp for Young.
Binns for Ed.
Totally agree with others that the 3 small forwards thing is an abject failure.
Durdin, and it pains me to admit this, just doesn't look up to it too often - a weekly passenger. Out for the Fluffy Ducks game.
Motlop looks better up the field.
TDK in for JSOS. JSOS is not a threatening 3rd tall, just too slow. Time to build his tank in the Magoos as an inside mid.
Gov as the 3rd tall up forward, a Mihocek type.
Kemp for Young.
Binns for Ed.
McGovern would be an out for me, bailed out of a contest and had zero interest in putting his body on the line.
Kemp deserves his spot...Agree on Binns in....and Dow has to play.
JSOS should be our Mihocek but he has lost his know how as a forward and is next to useless in the ruck at the moment too and is a passenger.
Swans will probably have Hickey and Ladhams so I reckon TDK has to play.
Our defense is a mess with Weitering who got flogged by Mihocek and Young badly out of form ....Young has developed Plowman tendencies and is a nuffy with the ball in hand and a real liability.
Buddy is due for a good game so those two have to perform this week..
McGovern would be an out for me, bailed out of a contest and had zero interest in putting his body on the line.
Kemp deserves his spot...Agree on Binns in....and Dow has to play.
JSOS should be our Mihocek but he has lost his know how as a forward and is next to useless in the ruck at the moment too and is a passenger.
Swans will probably have Hickey and Ladhams so I reckon TDK has to play.
Our defense is a mess with Weitering who got flogged by Mihocek and Young badly out of form ....Young has developed Plowman tendencies and is a nuffy with the ball in hand and a real liability.
Buddy is due for a good game so those two have to perform this week..
Yes, just watched the 2nd half again and agree re Gov.
So, after watching the entire game again it's the same old same old re allowing a burst of goals from the opposition that cost us... 1st qtr, 4 unanswered goals from Rottingwood, followed by a burst of 3 unanswered goals in the 2nd.
However, we did a lot right, we actually got a hold of Rottingwood at times, just didn't capitalize and provide more/other forward options. 6.13 to 8.5 after the 1st qtr. 3.9 to 3.2 after 1/2 time. Durdin & JSOS - passengers. Not enough from mids chipping in for goals, also.
Yep, Gov, JSOS, Durdin & Ed must be given a rest, along with young Hollands (as I said previously, just doesn't hurt the opposition enough with his possessions... lacks authority. Works hard, but that aint enough).
Our wingers are too defensive - must offer more offensive threat. Cotters suffered the 2nd game back, 'blues.'
TDK, Kemp, Binns and Cowan must come in.
Yes, just watched the 2nd half again and agree re Gov.
So, after watching the entire game again it's the same old same old re allowing a burst of goals from the opposition that cost us... 1st qtr, 4 unanswered goals from Rottingwood, followed by a burst of 3 unanswered goals in the 2nd.
However, we did a lot right, we actually got a hold of Rottingwood at times, just didn't capitalize and provide more/other forward options. 6.13 to 8.5 after the 1st qtr. 3.9 to 3.2 after 1/2 time. Durdin & JSOS - passengers. Not enough from mids chipping in for goals, also.
Yep, Gov, JSOS, Durdin & Ed must be given a rest, along with young Hollands (as I said previously, just doesn't hurt the opposition enough with his possessions... lacks authority. Works hard, but that aint enough).
Our wingers are too defensive - must offer more offensive threat. Cotters suffered the 2nd game back, 'blues.'
TDK, Kemp, Binns and Cowan must come in.
Cottrell is ok vs most midpack teams but not Collingwoods wingers/mids who are next level up. I think his future is 50/50..
Cottrell is ok vs most midpack teams but not Collingwoods wingers/mids who are next level up. I think his future is 50/50..
Tough to judge him from last weekend, so many players not competitive nobody can make up that gap.
Newman Young Kemp
Saad Weitering Docherty
Acres Cripps Walsh
Motlop McKay Fisher
Owies C Curnow De Koning
Pittonet Kennedy Cerra
I/C Hewett Dow Durdin Boyd Sub Cottrell
Weitering last chance.
Out Gov, Silvagni, Hollands, E Curnow
In Kemp, De Koning, Fisher, Dow.
Sorry to say but Fisher is no where near it right now. Dow, Binns and Fogarty are well ahead of him I would have thought.
Fisher is a retrograde step imo, until he can find some convincing form in the VFL.
If Kemp does come in, he should be banned from taking kick-ins and his team mates should avoid switching the ball to him in the back pocket. In 2 VFL games I’ve watched this year, he has chipped short passes that were easily intercepted about 30 metres out (though both set shots missed). Whether he telegraphs his intentions too much or just makes poor decisions, the problem will only get worse against AFL-level defensive pressure.
Edit: IIRC, in the last quarter, Kemp was in D50 when an opponent with the ball basically ran straight into his chest but Kemp failed to tackle him. This guy just bounced off him. Given poor kicking/decision-making and poor tackling are 2 of our glaring problems in the seniors, I’m not sure Kemp is going to help solve them.
I don't know how much Weitering's financial woes might be affecting him but, since the loss of Jones, he has been largely anchored on the last line and has devolved to mostly punching to spoil, which are often more effective than his kicks of late.
However, he used to be more effective at HB, using his skills and judgement as an intercept defender and kicking wisely to advantage - unlike the panicky turnovers of late.
Maybe it's time to give him a more attacking role and sacrificing someone less talented at FB.
Tough to judge him from last weekend, so many players not competitive nobody can make up that gap.
Struggled vs Collingwood previously and is a good Indian vs the so so teams but we need classier attacking players who can do damage similar to what the good teams do to us from the wings and we just cant carry too many negative players who dont get enough of the ball. Im over all these bit part players and want some winners....
I don't know how much Weitering's financial woes might be affecting him but, since the loss of Jones, he has been largely anchored on the last line and has devolved to mostly punching to spoil, which are often more effective than his kicks of late.
It would be an interesting swap for a quarter or to, Harry Mckay to CHB and Weitering to the forward line. The shake up might pull Weiters out of a form slump and certainly make the opposition think. Suspect that Harry could be sensational at CHB
Will be at game Syd. Fri night, so fingers crossed for gutsy performance our boys.
Ab
Im over all these bit part players and want some winners....
TPP makes it impossible to have what you want, you have to have role players who are in good form.
I'd assert there are four or five others that should be worried ahead of Cottrell, there a few who seem to never get fan mentions.
Name some names LP. I am a Cottrell fan, sure he has his limitations but he is quick, elite endurance, brave, committed and versatile. His skills have improved and he looks to spot up a teammate to advantage.
I will. Blokes treading water - or going backwards fast ATM ...
Ed Durdin Motlop Hewitt MCG JSOS and....I hate to say it, Weitering.
If we're serious Ed shouldn't play again this year. The others need to find whatever they're missing in the twos.
I will. Blokes treading water - or going backwards fast ATM ...
Ed Durdin Motlop Hewitt MCG JSOS and....I hate to say it, Weitering.
If we're serious Ed shouldn't play again this year. The others need to find whatever they're missing in the twos.
Agree Prof although I am almost certain Weiters issues are off field related. If we had a back up, I'm sure they would give him time away from footy to get his head/finances sorted. I'm no expert but perhaps the best thing for Jacob is to be with his mates playing the game he loves in which case, we owe it to Jacob to stick by him and help him get through this rough patch. Tough times don't last, tough people do.
Ditch three small forwards until we find the right ones that can play their role.
Bring in players whether tall or short with leg speed capable to play high half forward.
Leave Charlie, Harry and Owies in the forward 50 and patrol that space. They always get double teamed anyway
Push McGov and Kempy as high half forwards replacing Durdin and Motlop. Both capable in the air on the ground and deliver moneyball kicks they are also fast enough to apply forward 50 pressure and potentially more than Durdin and Motlop.
They should also have the tanks to block space in the corridor and push into defensive 50 when required. SOS should play as third tall defender as too slow around the ground.
Need something radical to change up this ball movement.
This focus on the forwards kicking or the defenders failing to work miracles is a smokescreen for the real problems, which almost exclusively emanate from our stoppage rotations.
I get we have a kid like Motlop who doesn't chase, he might one day, he does the odd cameo, but it just that a cameo, but he has time on his side if he develops the right habits, it's a big if!
For several weeks now fans have been unloading on the likes of McGovern, Weiters, Newman, Cincotta, Cowan, etc., etc. But you go back and watch the behind the goals footage it's just impossible. They are permanently isolated and outnumbered 3 or 4 to 2, the defence issues Voss talks about are not coming from our backline players, the problem comes from further up the field, we've all been saying this for seasons now but it seems it's become too uncomfortable to talk about.
Acres started with some glimmer of hope, he was deep running goal square to goal square, but he's caught the surrender bug.
Doc is about the only one left pushing deep into defence, he is probably the only one out there with a good enough excuse not to!
SoJ is a shadow of himself, confidence shattered, ........... I blame his old man!
Durdin, I've no idea what he is trying to be, the one thing he is good at he no longer does.
Cripps looks broken, many of us warned about this, the game style he played last season was brutally unsustainable.
Cerra gets lots of footy, hurts nobody!
Hewett, after making a world of difference is now behind Kennedy in the pecking order.
Walsh missed pre-season, looks rusty, works his ar5e off, probably won't improve or regain the silk much in 2023, needs a pre-season.
Pitto is playing at the best he can possibly play, we aren't going to get anymore out of him when we need a whole other gear!
It goes on and on, no point complaining about players like Ed, gave us everything he's got, if anybody expects him to blossom in some new freshly discovered role they are kidding themselves. The real crime is that we seemingly have almost nobody to replace him!
Interesting you say the three butchered the ball, I agree about previous weeks but Acres ran at 96DE% for his 25 touches (of which 24 are listed as effective) which is outstanding. Gov at 75% but only touched it 8 times (2 marks all day)and SOS at 50% for his 12 touches. It was Govs worst game for us this year I reckon. When he is not marking (or rather intercept marking) and pin pointing passes out of defence, like Weitering he is next to useless for us.
I doubt they'll give up on Gov after one poor game, our defence was abysmal for a large part of the first half yesterday. I sat on level 2 behind the goals we were defending in that first qtr and they were all over the place. Losing their man, poor handovers, mis match after mismatch the Coll fwds were licking their chops at how poor we were at maintaining structure down back (which was a strength last year). Poor old Weiters is a shadow of his former self at the minute, I really felt for him yesterday. He just panics about what to do when the ball comes near him, I could see every one of those instances unfolding at the end I was sitting at.
Fair enough re Acres, although I think he’s a list clogger
From what I’ve seen, he makes poor decisions under pressure, his kicking is unreliable (at best) and he is as slow as treacle (running and getting his boot to the ball)
Freo said he wasn’t worth the money we paid - unfortunately they have a no returns or refund policy!
Fair enough re Acres, although I think he’s a list clogger
From what I’ve seen, he makes poor decisions under pressure, his kicking is unreliable (at best) and he is as slow as treacle (running and getting his boot to the ball)
Freo said he wasn’t worth the money we paid - unfortunately they have a no returns or refund policy!
Kicks its 15m backwards to easy open targets, my DE% stats would be good if I did that all day......
We won't get anywhere until we stop replacing people and start making people better.
Paddy Dow is the key to our changing fortunes.
We won't get anywhere until we stop replacing people and start making people better.
Paddy Dow is the key to our changing fortunes.
1st line makes sense
2nd line makes me depressed if true.
We won't get anywhere until we stop replacing people and start making people better.
Paddy Dow is the key to our changing fortunes.
Agree with no. 1 but no. 2?? He's in the last year of his contract and the club refuses to play him at senior level so I'm sort of confused as to what you think the club will do. Are they going to have a radical change in their thinking?
Dow's DE is woefully inadequate. So is Eds btw.
He has little peripheral vision other than whats ahead of him and will miss the target 20 meters out 40% of the time.
It's unfortunate but expecting Dow to kick to advantage is never going to happen.
Townsend....can't see us going in with the 4 smalls in Fisher, Owies, Durdin and Motlop.....if 3 of them can't hit the scoreboard, one more won't make a difference....certainly not on the SCG.
For those that missed it, dow is the key, because he has all the attributes to be a senior footballer, and wants to play for us, refused to leave, and despite us being woeful, he can't unlock the tools to be a senior footballer.
Dow represents everything that's wrong with us. Top draftee, capable, wanting to, yet somehow the same kid we drafted on draft day.
Thats why we aren't getting anywhere and that's why we won't get anywhere until we unlock how to take a young kid, and make him a senior footballer.
For those that missed it, dow is the key, because he has all the attributes to be a senior footballer, and wants to play for us, refused to leave, and despite us being woeful, he can't unlock the tools to be a senior footballer.
Dow represents everything that's wrong with us. Top draftee, capable, wanting to, yet somehow the same kid we drafted on draft day.
Thats why we aren't getting anywhere and that's why we won't get anywhere until we unlock how to take a young kid, and make him a senior footballer.
Agree - but sometimes they don't make it. It happens in every draft given plenty of time and opportunities given. If they're not improving to a standard they need to be moved on. Owies and Cottrell showed remarkable improvement in their third year whereas Durdin in his third year has stalled badly - sometimes they even go backwards. rate of development is not linear and sometimes they improve as one expects them to after 3-4 years and sometimes they don't. harsh realities. Thats why club needs what Sydney has - a youth development squad.
Blues by 11.
The more I read here, the more I think we will be a very unhappy group next week. Unless Sydney don’t turn up, it is difficult to see us win. A bad feeling in my stomach is that we haven’t bottomed out yet. This game style and zoning efforts show too many opportunities for clubs to rebound and score once we turn the ball over. We might be up in some statistics but get punished on the rebound far worse than when we pick up the ball on a turn over. Almost like a complete lack of self belief and self confidence. Terrible leadership. At ground level. A real coach killing club we are.
The more I read here, the more I think we will be a very unhappy group next week. Unless Sydney don’t turn up, it is difficult to see us win. A bad feeling in my stomach is that we haven’t bottomed out yet. This game style and zoning efforts show too many opportunities for clubs to rebound and score once we turn the ball over. We might be up in some statistics but get punished on the rebound far worse than when we pick up the ball on a turn over. Almost like a complete lack of self belief and self confidence. Terrible leadership. At ground level. A real coach killing club we are.
I can't help but default to this statement in my mind every time things go south at our club. Seven coaches since our last flag, surely they all couldn't coach. Five since 2010, surely they all couldn't coach.
How can a bloke get 40+ regularly at VFL, has size and pace and still not get a look in...and he didn't sook it up like a few on the list do. Sure his kicking isn't the greatest but it isn't that bad from what I've seen, and if he has it the opposition don't.
But hey, let's keep going with a truly horrid ball user like Ed, and George, who has stunk it up this season. Chuck in "deadly" who wouldn't chase a pizza truck and we just carry the same old passengers every bloody week.
How can a bloke get 40+ regularly at VFL, has size and pace and still not get a look in...and he didn't sook it up like a few on the list do. Sure his kicking isn't the greatest but it isn't that bad from what I've seen, and if he has it the opposition don't.
But hey, let's keep going with a truly horrid ball user like Ed, and George, who has stunk it up this season. Chuck in "deadly" who wouldn't chase a pizza truck and we just carry the same old passengers every bloody week.
Not playing Dow is indeed a mystery.
The VFL stats only tell part of the story, they don't publicly report DE% for the VFL but if Dow cracks 50% or more it would be a surprise. I wouldn't be surprised to find his DE% is sub-40%.
I've watched him win the footy time after time, and miss targets time after time, fans make generalised statements like, "It's not that bad" because they remember the odd highlight at VFL and at VFL it often doesn't cost.
But in AFL that 50% or 60% miss rate against good teams rips your heart out and beats you with the soggy end!
At AFL level we already struggle to deal with turnovers and we often go at 60% DE or better, we need players who make the DE even better not worse! Put Dow at somewhere like the Filth and he would be a ball winning star, he might be a great replacement for Mitchell, because he would be surrounded by elite ball users.
Sorry, I watch games too and hes not that bad so I call bulldust. If he was so crap why wasn't he culled two years ago?
The side is screaming for breakaway pace from stoppages, what have we got to lose here?
We should...
Drop McGovern for not putting his glass body on the line.
Drop Durdin for being a spectator
Bring in Kemp to the backline, should never have been dropped.
JSOS to backline, needs to improve his confidence
Young to the Fwd line, has great hands and is a decent kick.
Kennedy to Fwd line, can kick goals and we need a mid sized fwd.
Motlop to on the ball, give him freedom, he has the tools.
Cincotta to backline, I like his old school approach
Cowan in, another no nonsense footballer
Boyd stays, did nothing wrong last game and can only improve
McKay to follow Franklin, might learn something.
TDK to come in as well.
(Probably have too many players in but...)
Get them to enjoy the game again, have fun, attack, attack. Small ground.
Honour the fwds leads. Although the fwds will have to lead for this to happen. We did this relly well against Wet Toast.
Have crumbers goal side of the contest, we ALWAYS have no one and they get it out too easily.
Kick to ADVANTAGE. Curnow and McKay one on one will win every time. If it is kicked on their heads it is a lottery.
Play for the team. Rewards for the 1%ers and goal assists.
Run hard when you have the ball AND run harder when you don't have the ball
Inventing roles for SoJ and Young won't fix our problems.
If you want Kemp in then give SoJ the flick and bring Kemp straight into the F50.
McKay to follow Franklin, might learn something.
Kick to ADVANTAGE. Curnow and McKay one on one will win every time. If it is kicked on their heads it is a lottery.
McKay must be a miracle worker, can be at both ends, one following Franklin and the other winning one on ones every time, unless you think he's a certainty to defeat Franklin one on one in our D50 every time.
I'd be happy to see McKay defeat Franklin one on one just once! :o
Inventing roles for SoJ and Young won't fix our problems.
If you want Kemp in then give SoJ the flick and bring Kemp straight into the F50.
McKay must be a miracle worker, can be at both ends, one following Franklin and the other winning one on ones every time, unless you think he's a certainty to defeat Franklin one on one in our D50 every time.
I'd be happy to see McKay defeat Franklin one on one just once! :o
Because everything else is working really well at the moment too?
Inventing a role for Liam Jones in the backline was a bridge to far as well?
McKay is probably our best defensive forward. Has great closing speed and tackles well. Get his mind off the stress of kicking goals to win games (even though that is his job)
Doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results...... :o
Because everything else is working really well at the moment too?
Inventing a role for Liam Jones in the backline was a bridge to far as well?
McKay is probably our best defensive forward. Has great closing speed and tackles well. Get his mind off the stress of kicking goals to win games (even though that is his job)
Doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results...... :o
No matter, he won't be winning everything one on one next to Charlie and trailing Franklin around at the other end at the same time.
McKay and Charlie are both Coleman medallists, so it makes a lot of sense to turn either of them into B-Grade defenders, apparently Carlton is the only team in the AFL where fans think being a Coleman medallist isn't good enough to cut it as a forward!
Just leave the B-Grade Defenders we've already got in place, because moving Young up the other end won't help our forwards to get closer to the sprayed delivery. No matter how poor some might think McGovern(aka The new Plowman) or Young have been, I'm betting they are an arm and a leg ahead of two newbies like SoJ or McKay as one on one defenders.
Over the past few years our marketing department has done a magnificent job selling memberships based on unrealistic expectations.
A coach can only do so much with a list that has too many players lacking basic skills and grey matter.
Also, the combination of lack of player development and recruitment of players with known physical problems has delivered us a coach killing list.
You having a bad day LP? ;)
When does Carlton losing lead to a Good Day?
Over the past few years our marketing department has done a magnificent job selling memberships based on unrealistic expectations.
A coach can only do so much with a list that has too many players lacking basic skills and grey matter.
Also, the combination of lack of player development and recruitment of players with known physical problems has delivered us a coach killing list.
At the moment some of our best players are our worst ball users. Some of the role players fans like to whip are our best ball users.
It's a volatile and destructive mix, because to fix the problem quickly we basically have to self-harm, or we can climb out which is inherently slower!
Anyone who thinks our problems are at either end of the ground is a sucker for the media spin, you've got a bunch of AFL has-beens commentating who would all want Charlie, Harry or Weiters lining up at their own club without hesitation. The only way they can possibly have a chance for that to happen is to turn those players in pariahs at Carlton, devalue them, and based on the Carlton fan reaction they are doing so very very well.
If you put these media schmucks on the spot and ask them if they want those players at their club they all turn into church mice, it's a huge tell!
If fans want to give up drinking somebodies bathwater, they should give up the bathwater of the media norbits they have been listening to.
When does Carlton losing lead to a Good Day?
Sorry Spotted one.
I'll just wait until I come up with an idea the same as yours! :D
Sorry, I watch games too and hes not that bad so I call bulldust. If he was so crap why wasn't he culled two years ago?
The side is screaming for breakaway pace from stoppages, what have we got to lose here?
Dow doesn't have breakaway pace; he might gain a step on an opponent if he has a moving start but he is often caught or put under pressure - this is part of the reason for his poor kicking. The lack of breakaway pace is also evident from his inability to catch anyone he chases (if he provides anything more than a token chase).
Dow doesn't have breakaway pace; he might gain a step on an opponent if he has a moving start but he is often caught or put under pressure - this is part of the reason for his poor kicking. The lack of breakaway pace is also evident from his inability to catch anyone he chases (if he provides anything more than a token chase).
Agreed, fans can confuse acceleration with pace.
For example Kemp has terrific acceleration, but not a lot of pace. I'd rather we tried Kemp in midfield or HF rotation, at least he has already shown he possesses some AFL level tricks and would if nothing else give Cripps a chop out. But I can't see us using Kemp like that and running SoJ as a utility as well, the SoJ Utility role is a list balance impasse that a lot of fans won't be able to get past, but it's a roadblock to many of the suggested alternatives.
Dows strength at U18 level was his ability to burst away from stoppages and blow past defenders who usually didnt have the strength to drag him down. He was continually running and doing what he liked, didnt need many tricks or evasive skills and never had any composure at the end of his runs and just sprayed the ball. But when you get it 40 times a match no one was complaining if at least half of his disposals went in the right direction. He kicked a lot of goals for a mid too and hence he looked like a ready made player who would suit us. The problem is he has never adjusted his game from U18 level or gained the nous and awareness needed and I'm bemused what our assistants and VFL coaches have been doing with him.
He has needed so much more senior football and patience to bring him up to speed and change how he plays...LDU has had that at North and become a player, we have just given up on Dow and let him become a zombie with no identity at the club or at senior level. Its just been a complete development debacle.....
Dow's strength at U18 level was his ability to burst away from stoppages and blow past defenders who usually didn't have the strength to drag him down. He was continually running and doing what he liked, didn't need many tricks or evasive skills and never had any composure at the end of his runs and just sprayed the ball. But when you get it 40 times a match no one was complaining if at least half of his disposals went in the right direction. He kicked a lot of goals for a mid too and hence he looked like a ready made player who would suit us. The problem is he has never adjusted his game from U18 level or gained the nous and awareness needed and I'm bemused what our assistants and VFL coaches have been doing with him.
He has needed so much more senior football and patience to bring him up to speed and change how he plays...LDU has had that at North and become a player, we have just given up on Dow and let him become a zombie with no identity at the club or at senior level. Its just been a complete development debacle.....
Those observations seem consistent with what he has brought to the table for the Baggers - when he has tried to run with the ball he has generally run in a straight line, which has made him easy to catch, and has not demonstrated any significant evasive skills, which might have been developed by coaching but never were.
Interesting you say the three butchered the ball, I agree about previous weeks but Acres ran at 96DE% for his 25 touches (of which 24 are listed as effective) which is outstanding.
Acres used the ball much better on the weekend but he used it differently
v Bulldogs- 17 disposals 8 kicks 9 handballs at 47%
v Collingwood -25 disposals 7 kicks 18 handballs 96%
...a much better chance of hitting a target with a handball. I suspect they told him "Don't kick the bloody thing"
Our problem wasnt what Acres was doing with the ball it was what his opponents were doing and both J.Daicos and Sidebottom had their usual days out on the wings against us again.
An interesting stat was the metres gained.....J. Daicos was at 680m, Sidebum at 332m and Acres at 116m...Acres must have been handballing to himself because he wasnt advancing the ball much.
Our best was Charlie Curnow who was a touch below 600m....carrying the forward line and working his guts out, he can be proud of how he is playing.
Our problem wasnt what Acres was doing with the ball it was what his opponents were doing and both J.Daicos and Sidebottom had their usual days out on the wings against us again.
An interesting stat was the metres gained.....J. Daicos was at 680m, Sidebum at 332m and Acres at 116m...Acres must have been handballing to himself because he wasnt advancing the ball much.
You don't gain a lot of metres with 18 handballs...but yep, he was nowhere near as effective as the magpies
Our problem wasnt what Acres was doing with the ball it was what his opponents were doing and both J.Daicos and Sidebottom had their usual days out on the wings against us again.
An interesting stat was the metres gained.....J. Daicos was at 680m, Sidebum at 332m and Acres at 116m...Acres must have been handballing to himself because he wasnt advancing the ball much.
Our best was Charlie Curnow who was a touch below 600m....carrying the forward line and working his guts out, he can be proud of how he is playing.
I actually did the sums on MG for both teams the other, there was only about 200m odd difference between the two teams. 219m to be exact.
The non-selection of Dow is a mystery. If they weren't going to play him, why not just delist him in October last year and pay him out...similar to what West Coast did with Zac Langdon who they recruited from GWS. Like most, I'm a huge critic of the guy but there must be something fundamentally and majorly wrong with what he's doing in the VFL that is stopping him from getting a game at the moment when the team is struggling. Yes, there's a big difference between the standards...but getting 40 possessions must mean at least he's getting to the ball? Our delivery into the forward 50 couldn't be any worse. Credit to the guy for keeping his head up and fronting up each week and working hard in the VFL...he could've very easily just pulled the pin.
The non-selection of Dow is a mystery. If they weren't going to play him, why not just delist him in October last year and pay him out...similar to what West Coast did with Zac Langdon who they recruited from GWS. Like most, I'm a huge critic of the guy but there must be something fundamentally and majorly wrong with what he's doing in the VFL that is stopping him from getting a game at the moment when the team is struggling. Yes, there's a big difference between the standards...but getting 40 possessions must mean at least he's getting to the ball? Our delivery into the forward 50 couldn't be any worse. Credit to the guy for keeping his head up and fronting up each week and working hard in the VFL...he could've very easily just pulled the pin.
It is really very strange and I feel for the kid.
Surprised we haven’t heard rumblings about it from his family in the media… what is going on!? Surely we have a right to an explanation seeing he was our number 1 draft pick too?!
I think we have enough handball first players in the midfield tbh. We need top end footskills. Binns is showing tremendous potential but needs to put on 10kilos.
We need players that can kick to advantage. I think Cerra and Walsh are the only two that can do it consistently.
One reason I think Doc is pushed to the midfield is due to his kicking skills and ability to kick to advantage and even he struggles with it. These money ball kicks like Pendles, Daicos, Sidebottom do consistently will win you more games than lose.
Docherty needs to go back. He is the general of the backline.
I would be hard to pick JSOS this week, what role is he supposed to be playing?
Im actually worried about Doc getting up.
He pulled up and was rubbing his right hammy and then went off and they were rubbing his left !
Im actually worried about Doc getting up.
He pulled up and was rubbing his right hammy and then went off and they were rubbing his left !
Cramping
More than anything, the thing that I would love to see with our group this Friday night is a concerted effort to focus on trust in each other and leadership.
We know that they all know how to kick, handball, tackle, run, mark and so on. But this really does look like a group bereft of trust in themselves, trust in each other (which destroys any opportunity to build confidence) and strong on-field leadership.
We have been doing plenty of things to undermine trust... silly misses on goal, dropped marks, poor handballs, silly choices/options - all symptoms of a lack of trust/confidence. A vicious cycle. The result? Playing safe, slow footy. No risks or boldness. Easily defeated/deflated.
To be candid, and I declare my bias having come from a military background/environment (Navy), I'd get a retired (you're never an 'ex') Navy Seal into the place to put these blokes through the exercises/disciplines required to build trust and leadership. Declarations of 'working harder' are rubbish, not to mention the implication that we've not being working hard enough. There are no issues with effort. 'Working smarter' would be more appropriate. And this cr@p about not getting too high or too low is a recipe for beige. The skill is to limit and contain the big highs and lows. Allow the highs and hurts for a time, then harness.
More than anything, the thing that I would love to see with our group this Friday night is a concerted effort to focus on trust in each other and leadership.
We know that they all know how to kick, handball, tackle, run, mark and so on. But this really does look like a group bereft of trust in themselves, trust in each other (which destroys any opportunity to build confidence) and strong on-field leadership.
We have been doing plenty of things to undermine trust... silly misses on goal, dropped marks, poor handballs, silly choices/options - all symptoms of a lack of trust/confidence. A vicious cycle. The result? Playing safe, slow footy. No risks or boldness. Easily defeated/deflated.
To be candid, and I declare my bias having come from a military background/environment (Navy), I'd get a retired (you're never an 'ex') Navy Seal into the place to put these blokes through the exercises/disciplines required to build trust and leadership. Declarations of 'working harder' are rubbish, not to mention the implication that we've not being working hard enough. There are no issues with effort. 'Working smarter' would be more appropriate. And this cr@p about not getting too high or too low is a recipe for beige. The skill is to limit and contain the big highs and lows. Allow the highs and hurts for a time, then harness.
I watched a clip from Footy Classified where both Bartell and Lloyd said Voss should be focusing on the positives in an effort to build up the their confidence which is rock bottom right now. Jimmy in particular said the Geel group responded to that type of reinforcement far better than the reviews which were all about showing vision and saying "you should have done this, you should have done that". He suggested show them highlights of the good passages of play say from early last year to remind them them they good footballer, are Brownlow Medallists, are Coleman Medallists, can execute under pressure. I think right now, it appears to me the whole club is as low as pregnant ant so this level of reinforcement needs to start from the leaders top down.
Anyway, I found the comments interesting but certainly worth trying some Navy Seal type stuff. That SAS TV show is exactly what its all about.
More than anything, the thing that I would love to see with our group this Friday night is a concerted effort to focus on trust in each other and leadership.
We know that they all know how to kick, handball, tackle, run, mark and so on. But this really does look like a group bereft of trust in themselves, trust in each other (which destroys any opportunity to build confidence) and strong on-field leadership.
We have been doing plenty of things to undermine trust... silly misses on goal, dropped marks, poor handballs, silly choices/options - all symptoms of a lack of trust/confidence. A vicious cycle. The result? Playing safe, slow footy. No risks or boldness. Easily defeated/deflated.
To be candid, and I declare my bias having come from a military background/environment (Navy), I'd get a retired (you're never an 'ex') Navy Seal into the place to put these blokes through the exercises/disciplines required to build trust and leadership. Declarations of 'working harder' are rubbish, not to mention the implication that we've not being working hard enough. There are no issues with effort. 'Working smarter' would be more appropriate. And this cr@p about not getting too high or too low is a recipe for beige. The skill is to limit and contain the big highs and lows. Allow the highs and hurts for a time, then harness.
The enjoyment levels look low, you look at Collingwood and they had the big mothers day special lunch with Mccreery's mum giving the players a gee up before the game and making it fun and all the players seem happy and bonded up.
Sidebottom said recently that McRae had ended any player hierarchy stuff as well.
No private groups , ratpacks or senior players ignoring younger players.
Everyone equal and getting a say, was told they don't do the lecture theatre stuff much anymore and he prefers small private rooms where players are closer and feel connected.
Kemp has to come back in, he reads the ball very well and is an excellent intercept mark which will be of great benefit on the smaller SCG.
Sidebottom said recently that McRae had ended any player hierarchy stuff as well.
No private groups , ratpacks or senior players ignoring younger players.
Everyone equal and getting a say, was told they don't do the lecture theatre stuff much anymore and he prefers small private rooms where players are closer and feel connected.
Was talking on the phone with Raydan this morning about the player hierarchy thing and we are near certain it still exists at Carlton and will for some time unless certain people are removed.
It's holding us back big time !!!
More than anything, the thing that I would love to see with our group this Friday night is a concerted effort to focus on trust in each other and leadership.
We know that they all know how to kick, handball, tackle, run, mark and so on. But this really does look like a group bereft of trust in themselves, trust in each other (which destroys any opportunity to build confidence) and strong on-field leadership.
We have been doing plenty of things to undermine trust... silly misses on goal, dropped marks, poor handballs, silly choices/options - all symptoms of a lack of trust/confidence. A vicious cycle. The result? Playing safe, slow footy. No risks or boldness. Easily defeated/deflated.
To be candid, and I declare my bias having come from a military background/environment (Navy), I'd get a retired (you're never an 'ex') Navy Seal into the place to put these blokes through the exercises/disciplines required to build trust and leadership. Declarations of 'working harder' are rubbish, not to mention the implication that we've not being working hard enough. There are no issues with effort. 'Working smarter' would be more appropriate. And this cr@p about not getting too high or too low is a recipe for beige. The skill is to limit and contain the big highs and lows. Allow the highs and hurts for a time, then harness.
Could not agree with you any more .... well said Baggers !!!
Time has come to feck off with this "get to work" crap, Sayers said it the other day, Docherty said it and Voss sprouts it ad nauseum.
The big thing Raydan & I discussed this morning was the fact that there is no honesty in the selection policy. If a guy in the seconds busts his guts & plays a blinder he doesn't get a promotion to the seniors even though there were 2-3 players who were woeful and deserve to be dropped.
If you know you won't get axed, then what is the driving force for a player to make that smother, put your body in harms way to protect a team-mate ??
Luke Hodge & Joel Selwood would always come off the field battered & bruised, they were true leaders and it made the rest of the team follow their example, how could you look them in the eye and say "nah, I'm not doing that" ??
We need to reward performance, not mollycoddle the "cliche".
To that end, the match committee need to put the line in the sand now, start a new process from this week with some tough selections that send a strong message that "close enough is not good enough". Let's be honest, we aren't playing finals this year so let's work on setting things up for 2024.
VFL stats : Tom De Koning (23 disposals & 34 hitouts) Paddy Dow (41 disposals), Binns (30 disposals)
OUT : Silvagni, McGovern, Acres, E. Curnow, Durdin, Boyd
IN : TDK, Cincotta, Cowan, Kemp, Dow, Binns
Move Docherty & Saad across the centrleine & midfield to add some grunt, pace & delivery to our attack.
If nothing else LL, that would make a statement. Maybe Hewett into the 22 and one of those listed as the sub? Sydney are missing tall players at both ends of the ground.
I watched a clip from Footy Classified where both Bartell and Lloyd said Voss should be focusing on the positives in an effort to build up the their confidence which is rock bottom right now. Jimmy in particular said the Geel group responded to that type of reinforcement far better than the reviews which were all about showing vision and saying "you should have done this, you should have done that". He suggested show them highlights of the good passages of play say from early last year to remind them them they good footballer, are Brownlow Medallists, are Coleman Medallists, can execute under pressure. I think right now, it appears to me the whole club is as low as pregnant ant so this level of reinforcement needs to start from the leaders top down.
Anyway, I found the comments interesting but certainly worth trying some Navy Seal type stuff. That SAS TV show is exactly what its all about.
Yep, positive reinforcement. Take off the negative shackles, remove fear of mistakes, encourage free flow, risks, fun, enjoyment... focus on positives and what each admires about the others... go to Sydney today and have some fun together. Watch a comedy together, whatever. Bonding.
Not sold on Kemp. Like everyone else, I’d love to see him live up to his status as a first round pick but he exhibits the same flaws that see others pilloried. Last week, he shortpassed in D50 after taking the kick-in only to see an opponent intercept mark (and has done similar in a previous VFL game). He had the opportunity to tackle an opponent who ran into him at CHF but the opponent bounced off him and kept going. And after being out marked 45m out when his opponent was out of range as he was kicking into a gale, Kemp pushed him to the ground in frustration to give away a 50m penalty and a goal. No doubt he also racked up some intercepts himself but those sorts of errors at VFL level make me wonder how reliable he’ll be against a desperate and well-drilled Swans on their own dung heap.
Further to what I wrote before, this group folds under expectation/pressure. Classic low confidence/leadership/trust stuff. We should want to eat expectation and demand more. Enter the training I mentioned previously.
Further to what I wrote before, this group folds under expectation/pressure. Classic low confidence/leadership/trust stuff. We should want to eat expectation and demand more. Enter the training I mentioned previously.
I played local suburban footy (U/13, U/15, U/17 & open-age) in the Essendon District league plus cricket from age 10 till 32 in the local Churches comp (first game was in the U/16 as a 10yo) and it was always instilled in us that sometimes you are going to come up against a better opponent. When you did, you gritted your teeth and went just as hard as you would against an inferior opponent.
Winning was not the occassional thing to achieve, it was a weekly expectation and when we did lose, it actually meant something to us, it hurt !!
When you won a game you were not expected to, usually on the basis of playing as a complete team and genuinely wanting that win, the satisfaction & pride amongst the palyers was immeasurable.
I hate losing, I always have and always will !!
Some of our players seem to just accept it with a sh1t-eating grin on their face. I can't trust players like that and never wanted them in the team with me.
"its not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog"
Not sold on Kemp. Like everyone else, I’d love to see him live up to his status as a first round pick but he exhibits the same flaws that see others pilloried. Last week, he shortpassed in D50 after taking the kick-in only to see an opponent intercept mark (and has done similar in a previous VFL game). He had the opportunity to tackle an opponent who ran into him at CHF but the opponent bounced off him and kept going. And after being out marked 45m out when his opponent was out of range as he was kicking into a gale, Kemp pushed him to the ground in frustration to give away a 50m penalty and a goal. No doubt he also racked up some intercepts himself but those sorts of errors at VFL level make me wonder how reliable he’ll be against a desperate and well-drilled Swans on their own dung heap.
Weitering, Young and McGovern are very poor at the moment and you can add JSOS to that group. I think Kemp deserves an extended run of games to establish himself. My preference is to see him used down back in the intercept role but Id even think about giving him a run forward and seeing if he can take a mark or two and give us a different look.
His form was reasonable before he was dropped and again I question the development of our younger players and the lack of faith and patience shown in them.
Unless he can get the unforced errors out of his game, playing him as an intercept defender might not do wonders for his development. We have difficulty working the ball out of forward presses as it is. We don’t want to be handing the ball back or resorting to less challenging sideways or backward kicks. Once we’re out of finals contention, by all means play the kids.
If he plays and shows he can distribute well by foot after intercepting, then I’ll jump on the bandwagon quite happily.
voss should say play on ,on all occasions people like young,Gov,Doc for example take a mark go back look around and then guess what the long bomb so wat difference does it make GO GO GO. (of course there is other players ) maybe for 1 Q
voss should say play on ,on all occasions people like young,Gov,Doc for example take a mark go back look around and then guess what the long bomb so wat difference does it make GO GO GO. (of course there is other players ) maybe for 1 Q
Only issue with this is we are the absolute worst at defending against slingshot goals, and we have made turnovers our strongest stat.
I like your ins and out supreme dark overlord
"its not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog"
Says the person who has been breaking down our list to the cm for years proclaiming we need taller players ad nauseum.
The big thing Raydan & I discussed this morning was the fact that there is no honesty in the selection policy. If a guy in the seconds busts his guts & plays a blinder he doesn't get a promotion to the seniors even though there were 2-3 players who were woeful and deserve to be dropped.
Honesty? or Transparency??
You don't know what the 2nd's players have been told they need to work on.
As an example, the coaches know that Dow can get it 40 times. They've seen it.
Perhaps the coaches need to know that he can be accountable for his opponent too. That he can play defence.
If Dows opponent has 25 touches and goes forward and kicks 2 goals because Dow didn't transition from attack into defence well enough, then has he really played a good game?
Honesty? or Transparency??
You don't know what the 2nd's players have been told they need to work on.
As an example, the coaches know that Dow can get it 40 times. They've seen it.
Perhaps the coaches need to know that he can be accountable for his opponent too. That he can play defence.
If Dows opponent has 25 touches and goes forward and kicks 2 goals because Dow didn't transition from attack into defence well enough, then has he really played a good game?
None of our other mids are accountable especially the captain.....its one of the reasons our defense gets swarmed.
Why should Dow have to worry about an opponent when nobody else does apart from Ed Curnow .
Its one of the features of our play that we man up very poorly and have for years....
If our leaders aren't held accountable for meeting the onfield playing standards then what hope of getting others to strive to meet them?
None of our other mids are accountable especially the captain.....its one of the reasons our defense gets swarmed.
Why should Dow have to worry about an opponent when nobody else does apart from Ed Curnow .
Its one of the features of our play that we man up very poorly and have for years....
Thats not quite true, but i get your point.
So the question remains, who deserves to be dropped from our midfield for Dow?
Sure a few players might not be in top form, but i think they still offer a lot more than what Dow has previously.
Must admit that the prospect of Dow being selected does not fill me with great anticipation. I can't remember the last time he impressed in the seniors. I haven't seen him in the VFL but reports certainly aren't encouraging.
If the root of our current predicament is that our mids are unaccountable, why would you bring in another unaccountable mid? Wouldn’t it make more sense to bring in an accountable mid?
If the root of our current predicament is that our mids are unaccountable, why would you bring in another unaccountable mid? Wouldn’t it make more sense to bring in an accountable mid?
Thats makes sense.
You'd have better luck finding a unicorn on our list though.
Thats makes sense.
You'd have better luck finding a unicorn on our list though.
It's probably a problem
To little 'difference' or 'variation' in our list.
Given the club website article you might find Akuei getting a run, usually these things follow a pattern.
Given the club website article you might find Akuei getting a run, usually these things follow a pattern.
The last game I saw him play was chalk and cheese to previous efforts.
He showed a lot more confidence.
But Gee, he's still a mile off it.
I'm not sure of his contract status (cat B rookie) but hopefully we can keep him for another year of development.
The article suggests we might.
Given the club website article you might find Akuei getting a run, usually these things follow a pattern.
Youth, exuberance, rawness, might be a good injection to our group to create some excitement. Take the reigns off him, no hard tasks, just say to him chase it and go, do whatever comes into your head.
You need abit of the unstructured madness sometimes.
I'd drop Hewitt and Ed for Dow to answer your question.
I'm not sure of his contract status (cat B rookie) but hopefully we can keep him for another year of development.
The Mid-Season Draft is coming.
Unless he can get the unforced errors out of his game, playing him as an intercept defender might not do wonders for his development. We have difficulty working the ball out of forward presses as it is. We don’t want to be handing the ball back or resorting to less challenging sideways or backward kicks. Once we’re out of finals contention, by all means play the kids.
If he plays and shows he can distribute well by foot after intercepting, then I’ll jump on the bandwagon quite happily.
Weitering is our best intercept defender but he is also our best defender against the opposition's best tall forward - I would like to see him used as an intercept defender.
Weitering is our best intercept defender but he is also our best defender against the opposition's best tall forward - I would like to see him used as an intercept defender.
Agree, he's wasted as a FB, and he slowly losing all the kicking skills he already had when he arrived at Carlton, it's such a waste!
It's like we expect the backline to continually patch up the concessions we make in transition and across the midfield, we expect our Mids and HFs not to chase and catch, so we expect backline to work miracles!
I'd just concede goals if it makes it to fullback, and I'd put all my resources into stopping it from getting there in the first place! This also reduces the amount of transition running Mids and HFs have to do, leaving them to work harder in shorter bursts!
I remember when the Handbaggers were flying with Harry Taylor at FB, he spent half his game well forward of centre stopping the opposition run before it even got started and having the odd shot at goal, the Handbaggers at that time with the likes of Ling and Hunt were not overly quick. That to me is how we should use Weitering, in duo with McGovern, between them they should be capable of an intercept zone the full width of the playing surface! But to work, you must have HFs and SFs, that apply defensive pressure, SoJ, Motlop, Durdin, Owies, do they have it, to me the most likely to make a run down tackle is BigH?
If Young wants to be a rucking free defender, then with his size tell him to go be a FB.
The Mid-Season Draft is coming.
The Bulldogs must have something we want in their VFL team....
Must admit that the prospect of Dow being selected does not fill me with great anticipation. I can't remember the last time he impressed in the seniors. I haven't seen him in the VFL but reports certainly aren't encouraging.
I am sure a lot of people are not filled with great anticipation about Dow but if he keeps picking up 40 touches in the magoos and doesn't get selected then it makes a complete mockery of the actual selection process.
We have guys in the seniors who are coasting with low tackle counts & low disposal numbers who keep being gifted games. You can't tell me there isn't a correlation between the selection policy & the onfield results !!!
Says the person who has been breaking down our list to the cm for years proclaiming we need taller players ad nauseum.
Completely miss the point there Kruds ........ :o
I am sure a lot of people are not filled with great anticipation about Dow but if he keeps picking up 40 touches in the magoos and doesn't get selected then it makes a complete mockery of the actual selection process.
Wouldn't be the first to suffer that fate at Carlton, McLean did even better. Despite multiple chances to pick him up we lost Kane Lambert for similar reasons.
Dow won't be the last!
PS; We have a long long history of taking highly in form VFL players and running them into the ground in VFL until they are on a form slide, at which time we give them an AFL gig so we can justify our earlier ignoring of them!
I am sure a lot of people are not filled with great anticipation about Dow but if he keeps picking up 40 touches in the magoos and doesn't get selected then it makes a complete mockery of the actual selection process.
We have guys in the seniors who are coasting with low tackle counts & low disposal numbers who keep being gifted games. You can't tell me there isn't a correlation between the selection policy & the onfield results !!!
That may well be the case but I'm yet to be convinced that Dow would provide an improvement at AFL level. Btw if he were selected I would be delighted if he played well.
just listened to Voss presser. I hope there are some serious changes.
TDK, Hewitt (sub) into the team. Don't think Dow will come in as Voss said we have plenty of inside mids and the MC wants continuity. Go figure.
Outs - any player who took a backward step last week, although we can't drop half the team.
My mail is JSOS and Young are in the gun.
That may well be the case but I'm yet to be convinced that Dow would provide an improvement at AFL level. Btw if he were selected I would be delighted if he played well.
As supporters outside the walls of the organisation, we obviously dont possess any facts around selection or non selection of players. However we do see the end results of selection and can only trust that the MS are making the right calls. Dow is an odd one, he is getting a lot of the footy week in week out in the twos and he does posses a trait all of our current first choice mids dont, break away speed. For that reason alone, give us a look at him MC, unless the data they may posses suggests otherwise, he cannot possibly do any worse than those currently playing in the ones.
Over on BF there was a suggestion from someone they heard the only change this week will be Fisher for SOS.
When asked about Dow, Vossy trotted out that tired excuse/reason that we are full of inside mids so breaking into that area is going to be difficult.
1. Yes, and our inside mids have all been performing brilliantly this year.
2. Lack of imagination. Pidgeon holing Dow as only an inside mid is just plain silly. The bloke has been dominating in the Magoos so he can play the game. There would be other options/positions he could have been trialled in to fill a need. Such limited/little thinking is disappointing.
As supporters outside the walls of the organisation, we obviously dont possess any facts around selection or non selection of players. However we do see the end results of selection and can only trust that the MS are making the right calls. Dow is an odd one, he is getting a lot of the footy week in week out in the twos and he does posses a trait all of our current first choice mids dont, break away speed. For that reason alone, give us a look at him MC, unless the data they may posses suggests otherwise, he cannot possibly do any worse than those currently playing in the ones.
Over on BF there was a suggestion from someone they heard the only change this week will be Fisher for SOS.
If that change is true then I will be in despair. Fisher has done nothing in the VFL to warrant a return to the firsts.
Laughable if Fisher in is the only change? We surely couldn't go in with Owies, Motlop, Durdin AND Fisher all in the starting 22? I know the SCG is a smaller ground but that just wouldn't make sense. Other than Owies, none of them are regularly hitting the scoreboard. For all their injuries, Sydney still have a forward line with Franklin, Papley, Heeney etc.....and Luke Parker makes a habit of playing well against us, and kicking goals. I'd have Hewett in this week to run with Parker.
If that change is true then I will be in despair. Fisher has done nothing in the VFL to warrant a return to the firsts.
Actually in his first VFL game I thought Fisher was OK as he got plenty of footy, but the negative was he still wasted it.
I just can't accept that players who waste the footy in the relatively low pressure VFL environment will miraculously get better when they play AFL! :o
These blokes should be getting near 40 possessions and be going at +80% when they play VFL, if they are as good as they claim!
My mail is JSOS and Young are in the gun.
I could be completely off the mark here but from my vantage point on Sunday, I thought Young did well to take up the slack from Weiters. I thought he was the only one in the backline holding it together while the rest were like the Keystone cops.
Laughable if Fisher in is the only change? We surely couldn't go in with Owies, Motlop, Durdin AND Fisher all in the starting 22? I know the SCG is a smaller ground but that just wouldn't make sense. Other than Owies, none of them are regularly hitting the scoreboard. For all their injuries, Sydney still have a forward line with Franklin, Papley, Heeney etc.....and Luke Parker makes a habit of playing well against us, and kicking goals. I'd have Hewett in this week to run with Parker.
Agree their forward line is still their weapon and they have players who can hurt us....Heeney if on will be a real problem as we dont have a matchup for his type of player. Id be wanting someone to look after Warner too, dont want that scenario where he plays on Cripps at the stoppages then runs off on his own. Agree on Parker, plays that dual role and I dont want a chump like Boyd picking him when he goes forward given Saad will probably have to take Papley.
Down back they are very small and under manned and we should win this game imho given how many defenders they have out
IMO, Errol Gulden has been one of their best players in recent weeks, and of the few whose form hasn't slipped.
TdK tipped to return this week according to tv news a few minutes ago.
I could be completely off the mark here but from my vantage point on Sunday, I thought Young did well to take up the slack from Weiters. I thought he was the only one in the backline holding it together while the rest were like the Keystone cops.
Young wasn't bad, even though he made a few blunders. Weiters was down, of that there was no doubt.
The question is, do they have decent matchups?
I wouldn't be bringing Fisher in until he shows a bit more. We might lack pace, but Fish goes missing when the heat is on.
TdK tipped to return this week according to tv news a few minutes ago.
Good.
Playing one ruckman is a recipe for disaster.
Laudable that Voss keeps backing in the same old passengers, but when he's clearing out his locker after the Don's loss the penny will drop that he's backed the wrong horses.
Ed SOS Young Out
Kemp TDK In According to Ch7 News
Ed SOS Young Out
Kemp TDK In According to Ch7 News
Yes, just confirmed on the AFL website.
Emergencys (inc. the sub from)
[35] Ed Curnow,
[1] Jack Silvagni,
[33] Lewis Young,
[8] Lachie Fogarty
Still no Dow picked.
Kemp for Young
TDK for SOS
Ed out.......to sub?
In for the Swans are Hickey, Melican and Wicks.
McG should buy a lottery ticket.
Hewett into the 22?
Whilst speculation, the fact that Dow is not even listed as an emergency makes it clearer that his unwillingness to entertain a trade on a lower salary last year appears to have resigned him to playing 2s all year
I suppose that from his perspective he can collect his cheque, play well in the 2s and set himself for a tilt at a more amenable club.
We’re so stubborn
Whilst speculation, the fact that Dow is not even listed as an emergency makes it clearer that his unwillingness to entertain a trade on a lower salary last year appears to have resigned him to playing 2s all year
I suppose that from his perspective he can collect his cheque, play well in the 2s and set himself for a tilt at a more amenable club.
We’re so stubborn
Reckon he will be at Stkilda next season...
Reckon he will be at Stkilda next season...
Definitely, potentially alongside TDk and Stocker, which would be sickening
RTB couldn’t get to Carlton so he may figure that he can bring Carlton to him!
Reckon he will be at Stkilda next season...
Agree, may have already been decided. Could be a deal involving Gresham??
Fogs tackle and clearance work has been at a high standard at VFL and would like to see him get his chance.
Look a little short in the backline to be honest.
Would like to see Charlie take Jacks role and play the link man and use his tank.
Play TDK FF
Small forwards need to pressure and create goals - this game is too hard for them
Fogs tackle and clearance work has been at a high standard at VFL and would like to see him get his chance.
Look a little short in the backline to be honest.
Would like to see Charlie take Jacks role and play the link man and use his tank.
Play TDK FF
Small forwards need to pressure and create goals - this game is too hard for them
Agree...McGovern or Kemp have to take Mclean and I dont like that size mismatch...I would have kept Young in and dropped McGovern.
Agree...McGovern or Kemp have to take Mclean and I dont like that size mismatch...I would have kept Young in and dropped McGovern.
Maybe they'll spring a surprise and play TDK at CHB and McGovern forward?
Reckon he will be at Stkilda next season...
SOS doesn’t like to admit that he got it wrong 🙂
Dow may have had 40 touches in the VFL last week but he had minimal impact on the game.
SOS doesn’t like to admit that he got it wrong 🙂
Dow may have had 40 touches in the VFL last week but he had minimal impact on the game.
No doubt, he is going to pull every lever he can to have the last laugh on us and he will try and recruit some of his handywork to prove a point. Not sure if Dow is going to be a win for him though unless Lenny Hayes can unlock the reason why he struggles so much at senior level.
SOS doesn’t like to admit that he got it wrong 🙂
Dow may have had 40 touches in the VFL last week but he had minimal impact on the game.
He will fit right in with Cripps and co.
http://www.bom.gov.au/nsw/forecasts/sydney.shtml
Weather forecast for Sydney.
He will fit right in with Cripps and co.
That not quite fair, they have a high impact, Cripps in particular, but in terms of applying defensive pressure they are limited by their available pace.
I'm surprised we chopped SoJ and not Motlop, for me SoJ can play Motlop's role but Motlop cannot play SoJ role.
Rather than have SoJ play as a lead-up marking target I'd have asked him to hunt stoppages and contests as a defensive forward. But he has to be prepared to tackle to hurt players which might mean a week off occasionally.
For me, other than Harry or Charlie, Owies or Kennedy are the next best lead-up forward targets.
http://www.bom.gov.au/nsw/forecasts/sydney.shtml
Weather forecast for Sydney.
You could have just asked me ..... :)
That not quite fair, they have a high impact, Cripps in particular, but in terms of applying defensive pressure they are limited by their available pace.
I'm surprised we chopped SoJ and not Motlop, for me SoJ can play Motlop's role but Motlop cannot play SoJ role.
Rather than have SoJ play as a lead-up marking target I'd have asked him to hunt stoppages and contests as a defensive forward. But he has to be prepared to tackle to hurt players which might mean a week off occasionally.
For me, other than Harry or Charlie, Owies or Kennedy are the next best lead-up forward targets.
JSOS is way too slow to be a small forward, defenders would be running off him... big time.
TDK for JSOS is very logical. You feel for JSOS, he's kind of in no man's land. He's not really a terrific 3rd tall... not a Breust or Gunston, or a Fritsch and so on. Too slow for defence as well. He does have a great footy IQ and relentless desire/effort. If we didn't have a glut of inside mids, that'd be his position. Sadly, JSOS may well do well elsewhere... as an inside mid.
JSOS is way too slow to be a small forward, defenders would be running off him... big time.
TDK for JSOS is very logical. You feel for JSOS, he's kind of in no man's land. He's not really a terrific 3rd tall... not a Breust or Gunston, or a Fritsch and so on. Too slow for defence as well. He does have a great footy IQ and relentless desire/effort. If we didn't have a glut of inside mids, that'd be his position. Sadly, JSOS may well do well elsewhere... as an inside mid.
He's been used as 'cannon fodder' for the last couple of years.
I can understand the argument for playing him as a second ruck, and the ability to have an option for an extra mid.
But the downside to that strategy is the toll on takes on Jack.
He won't complain of course.
He'll put his head down and give a 100% of his ability....limited though it is, to some extent, compared to other more talented players.
He can't settle into a role or position, he's just used as a workhorse...but realistically that is probably what is giving him game time.
I suspect he'll be the sub tonight.
He offers that versatility.
But if he isn't I hope a couple of weeks in the VFL with a solid well defined role freshens him up.
He's still a fringe player, but if the only way he gets a game is as a back-up ruckman, a move at season's end may be his best career option.
Not at St Kilda...that would be a huge mistake for both father and son.
I think he'd go well at a team like the Gold Coast or GWS...or even down the track with the new Tasmanian side (should it ever get past the planning stage)
Away from the scrutiny it might be good for player or club.
They'd benefit from a player who's prepared to sacrifice and do the hard stuff for the benefit of the side...it would add a bit of positive culture.
Just at the moment his future is a bit in limbo.
Many of us understand that discussions re JSOS and his place in the club being under scrutiny might be somewhat annoying. Afterall, he comes from Bluebagger royalty. But... if we imagine his name is Cyril McGillacutty, we can be more objective, and success demands objectivity.
There are a few names that are royalty at Princes Park and the thought of SOJ running around in other colours doesn't thrill me what so ever. I'm still getting over Jezza and more recently Waite leaving us.
SOJ plays his best ball as the 3rd tall in the fwd line. And our fwd line operates better when he is there because he has to attract a decent backman. Running him around as a ruckman does his game no benefit.
Many of us understand that discussions re JSOS and his place in the club being under scrutiny might be somewhat annoying. Afterall, he comes from Bluebagger royalty. But... if we imagine his name is Cyril McGillacutty, we can be more objective, and success demands objectivity.
Correct ........... if his name was Jack Shiitt we would be looking at him through a completely different lens.
Correct ........... if his name was Jack Shiitt we would be looking at him through a completely different lens.
A sad reality.
There are a few names that are royalty at Princes Park and the thought of SOJ running around in other colours doesn't thrill me what so ever. I'm still getting over Jezza and more recently Waite leaving us.
SOJ plays his best ball as the 3rd tall in the fwd line. And our fwd line operates better when he is there because he has to attract a decent backman. Running him around as a ruckman does his game no benefit.
For sure, running him around in the ruck was a terrible mistake. But even as a 3rd tall, he's struggled. We desperately need leg speed, everywhere... and Jack is just too slow and as an inside mid, you can get away with being slow, but nowhere else. He's probably our slowest forward, which gives his opponent the opportunity to run off him and create a forward entry.
For sure, running him around in the ruck was a terrible mistake. But even as a 3rd tall, he's struggled. We desperately need leg speed, everywhere... and Jack is just too slow and as an inside mid, you can get away with being slow, but nowhere else. He's probably our slowest forward, which gives his opponent the opportunity to run off him and create a forward entry.
For a slow fwd, he still takes alot of marks for set shots. Pity he misses more than he should.
Correct ........... if his name was Jack Shiitt we would be looking at him through a completely different lens.
Possibly.
But....what do we want from our footballers on a weekly basis?
Obviously we all want to win, but as long as we put up a good fight and give 100%, then we can generally accept that.
There are many players who fail to live up to this 'bare minimum' of giving 100%.
SOJ could never be criticised for that though.
He was also taken at pick 54 and i'm not sure any of us expected him to make much of himself.
He has outperformed everyones expectations of him and despite his shortcomings, give effort 100% of the time.
If we had a few more with the same attitude, we'd be in the 8.
So Jack Silvagni, schitt, or whichever version you want to go with. He still provides us with a lot of other players don't or can't.
So he deserves credit for that, not just his surname.
Don't agree....how is Ben going?
regarding Jack if he wants to leave at the end of the year and we receive something we like well time to depart ,but i would not be shopping him around i would keep him .
For a slow fwd, he still takes alot of marks for set shots. Pity he misses more than he should.
That's Jack's main problem at the moment; if he had converted more of his opportunities, he'd probably still be in the 22.
For a slowish forward he still manages to catch opponents and, of our forwards, only Durdin and Motlop have stuck more tackles than Jack - not that I expect Harry and Charlie to focus on tackling.
That's Jack's main problem at the moment; if he had converted more of his opportunities, he'd probably still be in the 22.
For a slowish forward he still manages to catch opponents and, of our forwards, only Durdin and Motlop have stuck more tackles than Jack - not that I expect Harry and Charlie to focus on tackling.
Yes I was thinking he has second, third and fourth efforts unlike a few others.
Hope JSOS is the sub tonight. His last couple of weeks haven't been great but doubt there's many others who bust a gut like he does. Against the Dogs I think it was, took a couple of great contested marks in the backline early. He's a strong overhead mark for his size and if his kicking for goal was better, we'd be talking about him in a different light. Chases and tackles hard....sometimes the little things that go unnoticed. He's been asked to ruck undersized a lot in the last couple of seasons and without wanting to go down the whole ruck debate here, IMO that has worked against him. Personally, I'd rather have him as a permanent forward rather than the 3 smalls playing at the same time.
Jack's played 100 games for us.
I doubt his name has had a lot to do with that.
I do think supporters sometimes judge him both positively and negatively on his name.
But he's earned games on his attitude and work rate...if not ability
He also has the odd game where he does display some strong patches of play.
I wouldn't be surprised to find him well up in the rankings in terms of goal assists and score involvements for our side.
Others with perhaps greater skills and upside struggle to displace him.
So he's been best 22(3) up until now.
I'm not sure what will happen with him at the end of the season.
I'd like to think he'll be a one club player, but it won't be the end of the world if he moves to another side...even the best of 'ours' have done that.
The thing is, if he stays, we'll have a pretty good side if Jack Silvagni isn't in the selection discussion.
Hope JSOS is the sub tonight. His last couple of weeks haven't been great but doubt there's many others who bust a gut like he does. Against the Dogs I think it was, took a couple of great contested marks in the backline early. He's a strong overhead mark for his size and if his kicking for goal was better, we'd be talking about him in a different light. Chases and tackles hard....sometimes the little things that go unnoticed. He's been asked to ruck undersized a lot in the last couple of seasons and without wanting to go down the whole ruck debate here, IMO that has worked against him. Personally, I'd rather have him as a permanent forward rather than the 3 smalls playing at the same time.
Surfie I get all that, but even as a permanent fwd, he just doesn't hit the score board hard enough IMO. Sure does all the hard stuff but scoring? Not enough to warrant a spot in the fwd line.
So he deserves credit for that, not just his surname.
Nobody has stated he's getting a gig was undeserved, but that doesn't take away from his recent ineffectiveness in some of the roles the club has asked him to do, it's not his fault, it's MC stupidity!
Fans calling for him to be 2nd ruck better hope they do not get what they are asking for, I've written it before and I'll write it again the ruck is prematurely ending his career and not through injury. If he is going to be purely judged in our playing him as a ruck it's slur on his good name, because despite all the good effort he brings he is not up to it!
He can be an effective HFF, Wing or perhaps even a tagger. All roles he has done well in, but in 2023 under the way the game is being adjudicated ruck is over as an option for him.
We(Carlton) hurt a lot of players by not managing them in a horses for coarses approach, in my opinion Scott at the Handbaggers are the best in the business at having the right player in the right role and managing them through the season. I hope Cook brings some of it and makes players understand they can't all be the big show!
Nobody has stated he's getting a gig was undeserved, but that doesn't take away from his recent ineffectiveness in some of the roles the club has asked him to do, it's not his fault, it's MC stupidity!
Fans calling for him to be 2nd ruck better hope they do not get what they are asking for, I've written it before and I'll write it again the ruck is prematurely ending his career and not through injury. If he is going to be purely judged in our playing him as a ruck it's slur on his good name, because despite all the good effort he brings he is not up to it!
He can be an effective HFF, Wing or perhaps even a tagger. All roles he has done well in, but in 2023 under the way the game is being adjudicated ruck is over as an option for him.
We(Carlton) hurt a lot of players by not managing them in a horses for coarses approach, in my opinion Scott at the Handbaggers are the best in the business at having the right player in the right role and managing them through the season. I hope Cook brings some of it and makes players understand they can't all be the big show!
You seem to think 2nd ruck is his primary focus. Its not.
He plays there for (at most) 1/4 of the game.
He spends slightly less time on the bench.
But over half his game is played in his primary role of forward.
Do we use him well enough as a forward....not really. We don't target him much at all as we are too Charlie/Harry focused.
If we played him out of the square (with his 3rd defender) and cleared some room for him, and actually kicked him the ball, he'd go ok. But thats not what we do.
We expect him to get the ball the hard way...off the deck, or through defensive efforts.
I'd like to see a breakdown of forward 50 targets of all our forwards. I suspect that Jack and the 3 small forwards combine for less than 1/3 of all targets, possibly less than 1/4, with the 2 big blokes getting up to 2/3->3/4's of the targets.
Makes it hard for him to have an impact in his primary role when they don't kick him the ball.
You seem to think 2nd ruck is his primary focus. Its not.
He plays there for (at most) 1/4 of the game.
In a bad 1/4 of a game our day is often done, so I don't think we need to go further than that in analysis! ;)
AFL is hard enough without given the opposition a 1/4 head start, regardless of whether it's the 1st-1/4 or the Last-1/4!
In a bad 1/4 of a game our day is often done, so I don't think we need to go further than that in analysis! ;)
AFL is hard enough without given the opposition a 1/4 head start, regardless of whether it's the 1st-1/4 or the Last-1/4!
You do realise its for 5 minutes at a time, not an entire quarter block right.
You do realise its for 5 minutes at a time, not an entire quarter block right.
I'm a bit vague, getting old, but was that 3 or 4 Filth goals in the 5 minutes while SoJ rucked? :o
It's absurd that you are prepared to surrender even 5 minutes to create a role for SoJ.
AFL isn't a charity, we don't want everyone to have a fair go, we want to dominate the opposition all day every day, not give them a holiday once a quarter!
I'm a bit vague, getting old, but was that 3 or 4 Filth goals in the 5 minutes while SoJ rucked? :o
It's absurd that you are prepared to surrender even 5 minutes to create a role for SoJ.
AFL isn't a charity, we don't want everyone to have a fair go, we want to dominate the opposition all day every day, not give them a holiday once a quarter!
Their first goal from that run...
1. Jack lost the hitout and we lost the clearance
But we won back possession at HB, and then gave away a free kick and a 50m penalty. NOT Jacks fault.
2. Jack won the hitout, they got the ball and the clearance....and a goal. Walsh was ball watching while his opponent left him and read it better.
3. Jack lost the hitout. Went to ground. Cripps was on Nick Daicos who just let him go, and couldn't go with him who picked it up off the bounce and was away. Cripps was poor in this instance. Ball pinged around for 5 minutes before they got a goal, ultimately from cripps turnover (on which Jack used his smarts to tap to advantage in a 50-50 contest).
But sure, lets blame Jack for all of that.
Ed is the sub tonight.
Let's go Blues!!
Shame Fogs not sub
Parker's head is bandaged before match wtf?