IIRC, early last season, Cripps and company dominated centre clearances and we took advantage of the 6/6/6 rule so that we could kick into an uncluttered forward line without being particularly precise.
Subsequently, we have not been as effective in centre clearances and have increasingly tried to move the ball forward without the ability to consistently find a teammate or even kick to advantage when the opposition has already flooded back.
I would like to see if my recollections are supported by statistics so I am wondering if anyone has or has access to statistics that show:
- a game-by-game breakdown of scoring from centre clearances compared to other means
- a game-by-game breakdown of any other stats connected to centre clearances, e.g. ruckman by ruckman / whether the centre clearances exited towards goal or towards the wing or flank / or anything of that kind
This is a good post. I've also tried for a couple of years, but I can't find any way of getting them. Champion Data and journalists only throw out a few advanced stats here and there when they have a point to make. Unless you happen to be looking for the same thing at the same time as some article appears, you'd be hard pressed IMO.
I completely concur with
@RiverRat , the strict Stand and 6/6/6 rule in combination gave our team of heavy bodied clearance specialist an edge, and now the changes and tweaks to the "rule interpretations" for 2023 we lost the advantages.
But personally, I had expected a better year than ever for BigH and Charlie, given the changes in the umpiring I expected more of the scragging and arm chop penalties to go the way of our Twin Coleman medallists, but in fact it seems to have hurt them!
Separately, tunnelling is back, on multiple occasions over the last few weeks we've seen Weiters, McGovern, BigH and Cripps all tunnelled in marking contests without penalty. What chance do we have?
Last weekend, BigH straight out punched in the back of the head by Moore, Moore's arm horizontal while BigH tries to mark arms up overhead, the umpire with a perfect side on view and no penalty. Filth fans were laughing about it, just horrendous umpiring! Yet they'll see and penalise the slightest tug of a jumper from 50m away!
Not that advanced but we have dropped in Centre clearances this year.
Centre Clearances/Centre Clearance Differential
2023: 16th (10.6 pre game) / 13th (-0.6 per game)
2022: 7th (12.4 per game) / 6th (0.8 per game)
One stat I noticed while looking up that was StKilda #1 and Carlton #2 for total marks and there was a bit of a gap to 3rd.
One stat I noticed while looking up that was StKilda #1 and Carlton #2 for total marks and there was a bit of a gap to 3rd.
thats because we play a very heavy mark kick sideways style at the back before going the long bomb down the line to a contest.
One stat I noticed while looking up that was StKilda #1 and Carlton #2 for total marks and there was a bit of a gap to 3rd.
Was their any breakdown between contested and non contested marks?......linking it into what Thry was talking about with plenty of sideways action before the long bomb...
Was their any breakdown between contested and non contested marks?......linking it into what Thry was talking about with plenty of sideways action before the long bomb...
Just as long as you realise to be labelled a "contested mark" you only need an opponent in the immediate vicinity, just close enough to warrant a momentary glance.
Just as long as you realise to be labelled a "contested mark" you only need an opponent in the immediate vicinity, just close enough to warrant a momentary glance.
We usually kick it 15m to some obscure part of the ground where the enemy have deemed it a waste of time to position any troops there due to the complete impossibility that we could generate a worthwhile attack from that position.
Just as long as you realise to be labelled a "contested mark" you only need an opponent in the immediate vicinity, just close enough to warrant a momentary glance.
Which is not true. Not if you look at the stats anyway.
I know why you say it and where it comes from, but when there are so few documented contested marks per game, that definition doesn't ring true.
Heraldsun has done an in depth AFL ratings of our players comparing 2022 and 2023. I will post later when I get on my laptop.
Heraldsun has done an in depth AFL ratings of our players comparing 2022 and 2023. I will post later when I get on my laptop.
I'm guessing the 2023 number will be worse, which seems to confirm Jimbo's current theory that all recent coaches at Carlton suffer the 2nd year Blues.
There's an article from Jon Ralph published a couple of days ago. It is, to my reading, a scattergun, unfocussed piece, but the key takeaway is that we are not brilliant, not awful, just very very average.
The problem is comparing all of 2022 to 2023
The comparison would be much more valid comparing the back half of 2022 to the first half of 2023 to see how far, if at all, we've slipped this year.
Not really answering RR's question but our team statistics are generally in the higher rankings:
3rd - Disposals
2nd - Kicks
7th - Handballs
2nd - Marks
14th - Goals
13th - Goal assists
13th - Inside 50s
9th - Tackles
9th - Clearances
9th - Rebound 50s
5th - Hitouts
5th - Contersted Possessions
4th - Uncontested Possessions
6th - Disposal Efficiency
1st - Contested Marks
7th - Marks Inside 50
6th - 1%ers
14th - Bounces
16th - Centre Clearances
8th - Stoppage Clearances
6th - Metres Gained
13th - Turnovers
6th - Intercept Possessions
15th - Tackles Inside 50
For a team that dominates possession and marks, contested and uncontested, our inside 50 tally is incredibly low. Similarly, our clearance work is well down given the talent we have in the midfield and the dominance of our ruckman.
What really stands out for me are the low rebound 50s and bounce tallies - we're not breaking the lines - and our tackles inside 50 - we're wasting too many of our limited inside 50s.
Should that 13th for turnovers be a red or a green, are they opposition turnovers or our turnovers?
Cerra: 2022: 11.8 Average, 2023: 13.8 Above Average +22%
Saad: 2022: 13.1 Elite, 2023: 13.1 Elite
Charlie C. 2022: 12.4 Elite, 2023: 15.6 Elite +26%
Ed Curnow 2022: N/A, 2023: 5.9 Below Average
Hewett: 2022: 14.8 Above Average, 2023: 9.7 Below Average -35%
McKay: 2022: 9.3 Above Average, 2023: 7.0 Average -25%
Motlop: 2022: 6.4 Average, 2023: 8.6 Average +34%
Owies: 2022: 7.7 Average, 2023: 9.1 Above Average +26%
Cripps: 2022: 16.0 Elite, 2023: 12.5 Average -22%
Walsh: 2022: 12.3 Average, 2023: 10.7 Below Average -14%
Fisher 2022: 9.2 Above Average, 2023 5.8 Below Average -38%
Kennedy: 2022: 11.4 Average, 2023 10.1 Below Average -11%
There were a few other players but they didn't change much.
I did not expect to see that Motlop and Owies had improved that much. Well done to both. The others are all about where I thought they might be.
Be interested to see a few names if you could...the KPPs
Weitering
Young
Pittonet
TDK
SOJ
Charlie
There were a few other players but they didn't change much.
Have I missed something, what are the numbers counting?
If it's some overall rating, how is it calculated?
I'm a bit dubious, because I notice some players who have missed games through injury seem to be negative, that suggests someone has made a oopsy in calculating averages. For example, game for game Walsh came back in and went to the top of the Carlton ratings tree relative to other Carlton players. Most ratings and stat analysis I have read have Walsh on average ahead of last season, yet those stats above have him on a downer!
Have I missed something, what are the numbers counting?
If it's some overall rating, how is it calculated?
It's an AFL rating whether you agree with how they come up with it or not they are comparing the player with themselves from last year. If they changed position that could effect the ranking but most are in the same role.
Have I missed something, what are the numbers counting?
If it's some overall rating, how is it calculated?
I'm a bit dubious, because I notice some players who have missed games through injury seem to be negative, that suggests someone has made a oopsy in calculating averages. For example, game for game Walsh came back in and went to the top of the Carlton ratings tree.
They have the games played. It's interactive and won't let me copy and paste.
Weitering 2022: 9.6 Above Average, 2023: 10.2 Above Average +6%
Young 2022: 10.7 Above Average, 2023: 9.9 Above Average -8%
Pittonet 2022: 9.5 Average, 2023: 9.2 Average
TDK: 2022: 9.9 Average, 2023: 8.8 Below Average -11%
SOJ: 2022: 9.3 Above Average: 2022: 7.8 Average -16%
It's an AFL rating...........
I get that, an AFL rating of what?
For example, see the attached image of FinalSiren averages for Walsh to date.
(https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6411.0;attach=1343)
Weitering 2022: 9.6 Above Average, 2023: 10.2 Above Average +6%
Young 2022: 10.7 Above Average, 2023: 9.9 Above Average -8%
Not directed at you
@madbluboy, now we know it's a rubbish rating, anyone who has invented a stat that shows Weiters and Young in better shape for 2023 than 2022 is a lunatic!
C Durdin: 2022: 6.4 Average, 2023: 7.8 Average +21%
Weitering 2022: 9.6 Above Average, 2023: 10.2 Above Average +6%
Young 2022: 10.7 Above Average, 2023: 9.9 Above Average -8%
Pittonet 2022: 9.5 Average, 2023: 9.2 Average
TDK: 2022: 9.9 Average, 2023: 8.8 Below Average -11%
SOJ: 2022: 9.3 Above Average: 2022: 7.8 Average -16%
Thanks. Thats pretty much exactly as i expected.
Thought we were being too harsh on Weiters....and not harsh enough on Young.
Knew SOJ was down and thought our 2 rucks were the same, was suprised to see TDK down
Should that 13th for turnovers be a red or a green, are they opposition turnovers or our turnovers?
We’ve had fewer turnovers than 12 other teams and 13th for turnovers gets a green.
It’s all a bit circular though; getting so many marks and good disposal efficiency means fewer turnovers. Fewer inside 50s means fewer marks, goals and tackles inside 50 - although our forward line is efficient.
Rebound 50s and bounces aren’t really dependent on other factors and they’re probably critical measures for us.
Saad is way off last year’s form, Doc is spending more time in the midfield and we’re missing Williams.
For a few players they include rankings for kicking, marking, 1 on 1 contests etc. I will provide some tonight on topics.
Summary for me is the midfield has gone to poop. Cripps is only average, Kennedy and Hewett are below average.
I get that, an AFL rating of what?
For example, see the attached image of FinalSiren averages for Walsh to date.
(https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6411.0;attach=1343)
The ratings compare them to other players. You can be a gun but if there are lot of people better than you then you might only be average.
For a few players they include rankings for kicking, marking, 1 on 1 contests etc. I will provide some tonight on topics.
Summary for me is the midfield has gone to poop. Cripps is only average, Kennedy and Hewett are below average.
The ratings compare them to other players. You can be a gun but if there are lot of people better than you then you might only be average.
It's a bit like this....
A team can improve from the previous season....but if other teams improve at a greater rate than you and go past you then your wins and ladder position might actually go backwards.
I still think any ranking that uses a players output over a 22 game season is pretty dubious.
Just as an example...everyone points to the fact that Cripps kicked 20 goals last season or that he won a Brownlow when comparing his 2022 and 2023 season. The majority of those goal and votes were built up in the first 11 games of 2022.
Carrying injuries, different roles, extra burdens all impact over a season.
Jack Silvagni was just about a 'dead man walking' by season's end (...and I mean a zombie not a death row guy) after the demands on him last year.
I know a stat we are a horrible team forward of centre.
..and because we are so bad this part of the game we need to defend much more than we would like.
Statistics and lies.
We are playing poorly no matter what the stats state.
Charlie curnow is perhaps the only player showing any form and the requisite appetite to compete.
Silvagni
Disposals: Above Average
Kicking: Below Average
Forward 50 Marks: Poor
Forward 50 Ground Ball Gets: Above Average
1 on 1: Above Average
Goals: Below Average
Accuracy: Below Average
Charlie Curnow
Disposals: Above Average
Kicking: Above Average
Forward 50 Marks: Elite
Forward 50 Ground Ball Gets: Average
1 on 1: Above Average
Goals: Elite
Accuracy: Above Average
Harry McKay
Disposals: Average
Kicking: Average
Forward 50 Marks: Above Average
Forward 50 Ground Ball Gets: Poor
1 on 1: Above Average
Goals: Average
Accuracy: Below Average
Harry McKay
Disposals: Average
Kicking: Average
Forward 50 Marks: Above Average
Forward 50 Ground Ball Gets: Poor
1 on 1: Above Average
Goals: Average
Accuracy: Below Average
Mate I cant your posts seriously when they are more that one line:):):)
Silvagni
Disposals: Above Average
Kicking: Below Average
Forward 50 Marks: Poor
Forward 50 Ground Ball Gets: Above Average
1 on 1: Above Average
Goals: Below Average
Accuracy: Below Average
These F50 stats are just another nail in the coffin of those who call for SoJ to be a 2nd ruck, I wonder if they offer a ruck related advanced analysis?
These F50 stats are just another nail in the coffin of those who call for SoJ to be a 2nd ruck, I wonder if they offer a ruck related advanced analysis?
SOJ or not.
Its the 2nd PART TIME ruck that is the point, not who is actually playing it.
SOJ or not.
Its the 2nd PART TIME ruck that is the point, not who is actually playing it.
So I gather you think the Filth will be kicking themselves for playing Cameron, could have won by twice as much if not for dragging two rucks around all day! ;D
So I gather you think the Filth will be kicking themselves for playing Cameron, could have won by twice as much if not for dragging two rucks around all day! ;D
If our midfield played like there's we could afford that luxury too.
If our midfield played like there's we could afford that luxury too.
You just a few days back argued we had one of the strongest midfields with the current best HTA ruck in the AFL, yet I don't see us kicking 3 or 4 goals in 5 minutes whenever the oppositions 1st ruck is resting!
One of our big problems in 2023 is that when Pitto has been busy hitting it down the throat of the opposition, our next option at times has been the big hearted SoJ! :o
You just a few days back argued we had one of the strongest midfields with the current best HTA ruck in the AFL, yet I don't see us kicking 3 or 4 goals in 5 minutes whenever the oppositions 1st ruck is resting!
One of our big problems in 2023 is that when Pitto has been busy hitting it down the throat of the opposition, our next option at times has been the big hearted SoJ! :o
We do have one of the best midfields.
Collingwood, currently have THE best midfield.
....and ours is out of form. Cripps specifically.
So you tell me ruckman are overrated.
You tell me the stats lie.
You tell me Jack is the reason we are failing.
.....but Pittonet hits it down the opposition throats anyway.
You don't know what you want....except to make bold statements with no factual evidence behind them. Each statement you make contradicts one you've made previously.
End result is, the club rates Pittonet (as do others supposedly) and you can bag on him all you want, it changes nothing.
He is elite hitouts to advantage from ruck contests and performs better when he rucks more. He is forced to do this because we don't have a legitimate 2nd ruck who can play elsewhere.
So what is it that you actually expect the club to do?
You b!tch and moan but don't offer any alternatives.
Who is the saviour and when will they be presented themselves.....because we've been waiting a while and nothing yet.
So you tell me ruckman are overrated.
Don't lie, children do that not adults!
Don't lie, children do that not adults!
Its not Pittonet getting hitouts to advantage, its the midfielders doing the hard work.
Thats not what you said?
Its not Pittonet getting hitouts to advantage, its the midfielders doing the hard work.
Thats not what you said?
That's not what I wrote, your trying on some schoolyard bullying and sooking it up because we lost. Verbals are for kiddies.
But we still looked better in the ruck tonight than with SoJ, and if you want to talk stats, how does TDKs goal in the game compare statistically?
That's not what I wrote, your trying on some schoolyard bullying and sooking it up because we lost. Verbals are for kiddies.
But we still looked better in the ruck tonight than with SoJ, and if you want to talk stats, how does TDKs goal in the game compare statistically?
Thats not what you wrote in THIS discussion, but you've written it elsewhere, or is that not true? What DID you say if that wasn't it.
I already did a stat breakdown of TDK this week vs SOJ game last week in the ruck thread.
You tell me, does that make us better off?
Thats not what you wrote in THIS discussion, but you've written it elsewhere, or is that not true?
No it's straight out wrong what you've posted, so show us the evidence that proves otherwise or wear the tag?
After the disappointing loss it's easy to post provocative or emotional stuff that has no basis, I know your hurting, one of your faves got it in the neck, and we lost. But that doesn't give you the right to misrepresent what people post on the discussions held about rules, tactics, players or stats.
You know as well as any, probably better than most, that I'm 100% pro-ruck, a ruck booster in fact, yet in a moment of emotion you chose to claim the very opposite. It's wildly inaccurate about me, and says far more about you, so my advice is you give it a rest.