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Re: AFL Rd 5 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #45
Ive read comments about last night being like the last three weeks etc, it was absolutely nothing like the last 3 weeks. We have been able to find a way, correct the structural issues and win the important areas we were losing in previous.
Last night we did nothing to address the important areas. Dont look at tackles or I50s numbers, look at the effectiveness of those areas. We butchered every single aspect of the game, basic skills like kicking and handballs, structure, tactics, defence, forward play, ground ball gets, ruckwork, marking. Our tackling is deplorable last night, we went too low (probably because they are trained to do it to not give away free kicks) which resulted in the man being left with his whole upper body free. They had time to look around, pick out the best option and away they went.
And when they did give it off, it was to a man in space. That is the single most important thing we need to work on, pronto. Forget about pure leg speed, we simply dont have it. Get it into space (as opposed to congestion) and watch how quick you look with time on our side. That requires smart positioning (structures, shape) and work rate. We did neither last night for 4 quarters.
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time

Re: AFL Rd 5 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #46
Vossy's presser will be interesting. I'm sure it will be measured but inside he will be seething, upset with himself, his assistants,  his players, just an awful performance.
Thats his first presser I was a little disappointed with, I suppose it mirrored our night. To suggest he was pleased with aspects seemed forced and contrived. He didn't need to smash his blokes publicly but to suggest there were areas he was pleased with was a stretch.
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time

Re: AFL Rd 5 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #47
Let's talk about injuries. Each and every year we play at a disadvantage, 10-15 blokes unavailable seems the norm. Decisions need to be made, a player who is a gun but isn't available is useless. Our fitness guru has seen no improvement in speed or injury rates. Fitness and injury management need a clean out. Players like Williams, Marchbank, Cunningham etc we need to play or move on. We can't be successful playing with a smaller list than the competition.
What happened to my old profile?????

Re: AFL Rd 5 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #48

---------Will be fascinated to see what the coaches do with this. There are so many lessons, I can't imagine where they'll start. Lesson 1...... 118 🫣

Well L.N - while watching the game last night from top level Adelaide Oval I thought the Lesson 1 should be "Pick up your man" (And then beat him to the ball!)
Ab

Re: AFL Rd 5 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #49
The level of disappointment in a performance is often reflective of the expectations going into the game.
I expected it to be a tough task, so I’m probably a little less disappointed than some. Even so, that was horrendous. 
The problem is that because we’re the first game of the round we’ll be under the microscope for longer. What we need is for a team like St Kilda to crash and take the focus off.
As it is…There are total meltdowns across Carlton social media forums and facebook pages. The folks are angry. Comments have been turned off. The ‘kumbaya’ crowd are out denouncing those who are not ‘real’ supporters because they’re being a bit (rightly so) critical. It’d be funny if it wasn’t so tragic.

In the cold light of day that was a real wake-up call.
An aberration?
We’ll see!
The post-mortems will last a few days (we tend to discuss the losses in a bit more depth than the wins).
So a couple of points…
Could it be that the much-maligned Mitch McGovern is actually an essential component of success for this side.
He was missing as North piled on goals at the end of that game and missing again as Adelaide put the cleaners through us last night. It’s hard to know how much advance warning we had for that ‘out’ but a defence that was rock solid a few weeks ago looks very shaky. Sure, their midfield superiority puts the defence under pressure, but McGovern is an important part of the structure and when he’s missing it throws an extra burden on our other tall defenders. With Docherty also out, it made a huge difference to our ability to resist, and Adelaide took full advantage. The problem is that McGovern is a bit brittle, and an extended period without injury is probably wishful thinking.

I get the argument Kruddler is making about Silvagni and the ruck situation. It’s a bit of a blancing issue…a robbing Peter to pay Paul. The issue is that rucking will take its toll and while we gain in some areas we perhaps lose a degree of effectiveness with Jack in other roles. (He was playing in defence and saved a goal at one stage last night). Rucking also wears him down as his finish to 2022 showed. It’s not sustainable. Pittonet is struggling to stay on the field. TDK is a mile off reaching the potential we suspect he might have, and any long-term contract on big money would be a huge mistake. Sign him on a two-year deal, or let another club make that mistake.
So, the rucking situation is a worry.

Just to shoot a few Bambis.
-Cripps has been going OK but just seems to have lost a bit of the explosiveness he had last year. Doesn’t seem as quick, and that may correspond to a niggly injury of some sort.
-We know how awesome Charlie can be, but he’ll never quite be the best version of himself with some of his second efforts. Often if he loses that initial contest his backup is not that intense.
-Harry is a bit of a panic merchant and makes some dumb decisions (and executes poorly) in rushed situations.
-Saad is brilliant, the least of our worries, but his tackles don’t always stick, and players have got through him a couple of times in recent weeks.
Apart from that…the small forwards are ‘almost’ players, flashing in and out of then game. Motlop could be very dangerous if he just tidies it up a bit. That will come with game time.
The mids just need to find some consistency and that’s difficult with the injury situation. The group need a few games together. I suspect Hewett’s hand injury was much worse than first reported and he may still be struggling a bit with that. Walsh will be better with games under his belt.

But the reality is that most of the above-mentioned players are our strength. There are a few players on the fringe who just aren’t good enough and when given the opportunity don’t measure up. If the team is going well we can probably carry and disguise those players. When things are going poorly, like last night, those deficiencies stand out.

So, in summary.
Forget that performance,
Get out of Adelaide if you’ve gone there for the game.
Don’t watch the footy shows this week…
 and reset.

Re: AFL Rd 5 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #50
Let's talk about injuries. Each and every year we play at a disadvantage, 10-15 blokes unavailable seems the norm. Decisions need to be made, a player who is a gun but isn't available is useless. Our fitness guru has seen no improvement in speed or injury rates. Fitness and injury management need a clean out. Players like Williams, Marchbank, Cunningham etc we need to play or move on. We can't be successful playing with a smaller list than the competition.
We had very close to our best side on the park last night. Gov was an unfortunate late out, Doc prior to that was a blow. The rest on the injury list are not important to our fortunes.
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time

Re: AFL Rd 5 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #51
Nice. Still too nice. Where's the Voss hardness, ruthless determination & take no prisoners? (The Croweaters showed us how these things are done).

For the 1st 4 weeks we played reasonable sides in reasonable form and struggled. As soon as we played a side, with finals like heat, in good form with everything to play for, we went to water. Sound familiar? Same old, same old. A brittle side, especially above the shoulders... more, nice.

Selection table conservatism. Giving chances to blokes based on reputation or 'liked' around the club.

Is Crippa nursing an injury? I almost hope so as that would explain a lot. His leadership, along with other leaders, was found wanting last night... when desperately needed. When your best mids are a veteran and a bloke who hasn't played for 6 months, you're in strife. Hewett and Kennedy are not in good form, Crippa hot and cold.

We cannot bury sides, but we can be buried. We began last night uncommitted and seemed dreadfully ill-prepared, somewhat similar to how we meekly surrendered a big lead last week. No killer instinct, no ruthlessness, just conditional effort... more, nice.

The only thing we succeeded in doing last night was embarrassing our brand, our club, our members and supporters. Many members and supporters would be feeling embarrassed today, even ashamed.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: AFL Rd 5 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #52
A confidence crushing night for sure.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: AFL Rd 5 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #53
@ Lods Great summary mate. Just on Doc and Gov, they are very important as they read the incoming ball so well and they intercept more often than not. On a night like last night, they would have been worth there weight in gold. BUT (there is always a BUT), given our history with injury to key players, by now we should have had oodles of practice at having to have a "plan B and C in the event of...". Last night we seemed to have 23 blokes rattled. Weiters and Young did far to much man watching which had them one or two steps behind at every entry. Now I know the ball came in hot and clean all night but at some point, they had to adjust and say "stuff my man, I'm gonna read the incoming ball and back myself to go win it". Their defenders were doing that very thing, backing themselves and even taking pack marks when we bombed it in. FFS Young and Weiters have been doing it in every previous game. Whether Gov and Doc give them the confidence to do it I dont know but last night they went into their shells. Of course it was going to be a hard match and Adelaide set themselves for it, but so should have we and I expected nothing less than a close, tough, 4 quarter contest, not that hot mess we dished up.
So yep I agree, dont read the papers, dont watch any footy shows because they will be scathing. The response will be very interesting.
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time

Re: AFL Rd 5 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #54
The only thing we succeeded in doing last night was embarrassing our brand, our club, our members and supporters. Many members and supporters would be feeling embarrassed today, even ashamed.
Bravo Signor Baggers, that's exactly how I feel and felt from literally the opening 5 minutes.
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time

Re: AFL Rd 5 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #55
I couldn't even watch it. It was like a nightmare come true.
Hopefully the club can actually learn something from our defeat, as we were beaten in the coach's box as well as on the field.
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: AFL Rd 5 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #56
I couldn't even watch it. It was like a nightmare come true.
Hopefully the club can actually learn something from our defeat, as we were beaten in the coach's box as well as on the field.
Crash it was a dead set repeat of the last encounter so we may have learnt something from that one but we didnt do anything to stop it being repeated. The Adelaide coaches could be seen smiling and laughing in their box, I'm sure it was because they happy with their blokes but I am also sure they were laughing at us and how silly and second rate they made us look.
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time

Re: AFL Rd 5 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #57
The level of disappointment in a performance is often reflective of the expectations going into the game.
I expected it to be a tough task, so I’m probably a little less disappointed than some. Even so, that was horrendous. 
The problem is that because we’re the first game of the round we’ll be under the microscope for longer. What we need is for a team like St Kilda to crash and take the focus off.
As it is…There are total meltdowns across Carlton social media forums and facebook pages. The folks are angry. Comments have been turned off. The ‘kumbaya’ crowd are out denouncing those who are not ‘real’ supporters because they’re being a bit (rightly so) critical. It’d be funny if it wasn’t so tragic.

In the cold light of day that was a real wake-up call.
An aberration?
We’ll see!
The post-mortems will last a few days (we tend to discuss the losses in a bit more depth than the wins).
So a couple of points…
Could it be that the much-maligned Mitch McGovern is actually an essential component of success for this side.
He was missing as North piled on goals at the end of that game and missing again as Adelaide put the cleaners through us last night. It’s hard to know how much advance warning we had for that ‘out’ but a defence that was rock solid a few weeks ago looks very shaky. Sure, their midfield superiority puts the defence under pressure, but McGovern is an important part of the structure and when he’s missing it throws an extra burden on our other tall defenders. With Docherty also out, it made a huge difference to our ability to resist, and Adelaide took full advantage. The problem is that McGovern is a bit brittle, and an extended period without injury is probably wishful thinking.

I get the argument Kruddler is making about Silvagni and the ruck situation. It’s a bit of a blancing issue…a robbing Peter to pay Paul. The issue is that rucking will take its toll and while we gain in some areas we perhaps lose a degree of effectiveness with Jack in other roles. (He was playing in defence and saved a goal at one stage last night). Rucking also wears him down as his finish to 2022 showed. It’s not sustainable. Pittonet is struggling to stay on the field. TDK is a mile off reaching the potential we suspect he might have, and any long-term contract on big money would be a huge mistake. Sign him on a two-year, deal or let another club make that mistake.
So, the rucking situation is a worry.

Just to shoot a few Bambis.
-Cripps has been going OK but just seems to have lost a bit of the explosiveness he had last year. Doesn’t seem as quick, and that may correspond to a niggly injury of some sort.
-We know how awesome Charlie can be, but he’ll never quite be the best version of himself with some of his second efforts. Often if he loses that initial contest his backup is not that intense.
-Harry is a bit of a panic merchant and makes some dumb decisions (and executes poorly) in rushed situations.
-Saad is brilliant, the least of our worries, but his tackles don’t always stick, and players have got through him a couple of times in recent weeks.
Apart from that…the small forwards are ‘almost’ players, flashing in and out of then game. Motlop could be very dangerous if he just tidies it up a bit. That will come with game time.
The mids just need to find some consistency and that’s difficult with the injury situation. The group need a few games together. I suspect Hewett’s hand injury was much worse than first reported and he may still be struggling a bit with that. Walsh will be better with games under his belt.

But the reality is that most of the above-mentioned players are our strength. There are a few players on the fringe who just aren’t good enough and when given the opportunity don’t measure up. If the team is going well we can probably carry and disguise those players. When things are going poorly, like last night, those deficiencies stand out.

So, in summary.
Forget that performance,
Get out of Adelaide if you’ve gone there for the game.
Don’t watch the footy shows this week…
 and reset.
Saw it coming and tipped Adelaide. Helped my tipping immensely.

After following Carlton for 60 years you get an idea when they aren't going to turn up to play. No-one does "not turning up to play" better than Carlton, even in premiership years. We had 2 worse losses than last night in 1995. As long as they break last night down, go over what was wrong, then just focus on next week. It is the first loss. It'd not about the loss, it's about the rebound and what we learnt. We can get overworked up about one loss in a 23 game season. Stinkers will happen at near all sides. Geelong was 5-4 after 9 rounds last year.

Re: AFL Rd 5 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #58
I said it and predicted it that we needed to come with the right mindset.

Great reading from all comments made, ALL valid.

My worst gripe about last night watching at the game was how easily they moved the ball.
Continually we manned space, set up zones and so it meant our players were in no mans land ALL the time. Hence continually chasing.
I understand the idea but if it's not working early in the game CHANGE it.
Why not go MAN on MAN for a period, make them earn their possessions not waltz coast to coast.
The other thing I noticed was we had two players going for the man with the ball and he just passed it to a free player. Frustrating.

Delivery to the forward line... is it the delivery or the forwards ability to lead?
Umpiring?????????????? the amount of time Heartbreak Harry or Charles got illegally impeded was ^&%^&$$.
Voss should be a Hardwick and say something about this.
2024... Moir of the same to come

Re: AFL Rd 5 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #59
Can't wait to see us next week- wonder if we'll have learned anything or been motivated to make any improvements??
Reality always wins in the end.