Skip to main content ↑ ↓
Topic: AFL Rd 10 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood (Read 5146 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: AFL Rd 10 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #165 –
Quote from: PaulP on
I don't agree that the players are apathetic and I don't believe they lack pride. And I don't believe that the genuine efforts of dozens upon dozens of people at the club should be denigrated by that sort of nonsense. There is no doubt in my mind that the players and coaches carry the hurt way more than armchair experts. One must legitimately ask what a membership fee, entry to the game etc., actually buys you. It doesn't buy you the right to spout dribble, or to insult and belittle others and treat them like sh1t.

In a commercial, competitive environment, clubs are in the business of selling hope. Hope can be the allure of playing finals, it can be the allure of a top coach, young No1 draft pick etc. Clubs will always try to give supporters some reason to believe. You won't ever find a club that will tell you this season will be a write off, don't bother, come back next year. I don't believe everything the club says - why can't Mr Snapper apply some very basic critical thinking skills and wait until he sees some evidence of improvement before he parts with is hard earned ? Oh wait, he's from talkback land, so.............

I am 100% convinced that players, coaches and clubs in general must find supporters to be a mixed blessing.

Let's agree to disagree.

Carlton has a paid up membership of some 80 thousand.  I believe that they believe membership entitles them to entry into a ground, no more, no less.

 Whether they cheer, clap, jeer, shout at  the umpire, or opposition players or even their own team players, contact radio hosts, newspapers etc to give their opinions is totally unrelated to their membership.

Their actions are no different from those supporters, also as passionate, who do not have memberships but attend matches on a regular basis.

As for Mr Snapper and his failure to apply some very basic critical thinking skills, probably it is caused by what you say the clubs are selling - hope.   In the Carlton context that word could be replaced by 'wishful thinking'.  For people to buy into "hope" or "wishful thinking" occasionally requires the suspension of basic critical thinking skills. 

As for the true believer, the supporter who turns up to every match decked out in jumper and beanie and believing against all the odds that Carlton will win each game, basic critical thinking skills have never been a prerequisite.

I agree with you that players, coaches and clubs in general must find supporters to be a mixed blessing, but without them the AFL would not survive.






Re: AFL Rd 10 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #166 –
Quote from: PaulP on
I am 100% convinced that players, coaches and clubs in general must find supporters to be a mixed blessing.
This may be the differential between the marketing and football departments, one profits from hope and expectation, the other needs performance.

Historically, at Carlton it looks to me like marketing rule$, profit before performance. It's the only thing that explains the coaches getting it in the neck so frequently. This recent outburst from Mathieson confirms to me that the Old Carlton still hasn't learnt it lessons and let go, they think they can abuse, bully and buy the way to success, pretty much like those callers!

This is why the Filth have it over pretty much every other club. Rain, hail or shine the Filth supporters support the players, it's drummed into them from early days you don't sledge your own. They turn on their own for sprouting the type of vitriol some Carlton fans want to openly propagate. But it took 30 years of Colliwobbles to beat the negativity and vitriol out of them.

Maybe we can learn from that, or we can ignore it and perhaps suffer the same fate, but there is no buying or bullying our way out of this, those days are long long gone!
The Force Awakens!

Re: AFL Rd 10 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #167 –
Quote from: Lods on
I'm not sure about that part.
For some supporters the Carlton football club is a large part of their life from their earliest memories until the day they die.
They'll perform 'lucky' rituals on match days, cry after losses, name their pets and children for favourite players, struggle to go to work on Mondays after a loss and tip over the water cooler if someone says the wrong thing.
The club song will be played at their funeral and they'll be buried in their polos, jumpers and scarfs.
(But that's just me) ;D

Players and coaches are just employees.
Many supported or played for other sides before they came to Carlton, some will play for other teams when they leave.
Some will eventually become rusted on.
They'll be the face of Carlton, they'll treasure the memories and turn up to flag reunions, but in a lot of cases the bonds they form will be for other team-mates rather than the club.
They'll hurt in losses for that reason, not for the love of a jumper.
Some will have very short careers.
Their feelings for the club will be transient.
They'll laugh with the opposition after games, while the fans cry in the stands.


The behaviours in your first paragraph have a lot in common with organised religion - that's the first thing I thought of. The second thing is that if the right (or should I say the wrong) circumstances are all in play at the same time, Mr Snapper becomes Mr Snapped, and loses his nut completely, and does something drastic like those South American soccer fans. There's no invisible bubble that protects AFL from soccer. Tribal identity markers are very real (not necessarily based on ethnicity), the same passions are aroused, the same behaviours reinforced and expected.

And I disagree with your last point. Players and coaches at Carlton give significantly more time (physical, mental, emotional) than any fan, even if it's by necessity. Most players that move on are either retired, traded, or delisted. A small number of course move because they want to. And most coaches only leave because they get sacked. Fans focus on whinging and whining and making sure the world knows how much the club hurts them. Players and coaches focus on making themselves and their team mates better. Try rocking up to work and having 50, 60, 70, 80,000 fans telling you you're a piece of cr@p, you're only in it for the money, you don't deserve your pay cheque etc., and see how you like it

Players and coaches are professional, and they have to play the game. Of course they will talk about how great their new club is. They can hardly say otherwise.

Re: AFL Rd 10 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #168 –
Quote from: PaulP on

The behaviours in your first paragraph have a lot in common with organised religion - that's the first thing I thought of. The second thing is that if the right (or should I say the wrong) circumstances are all in play at the same time, Mr Snapper becomes Mr Snapped, and loses his nut completely, and does something drastic like those South American soccer fans. There's no invisible bubble that protects AFL from soccer. Tribal identity markers are very real (not necessarily based on ethnicity), the same passions are aroused, the same behaviours reinforced and expected.

And I disagree with your last point. Players and coaches at Carlton give significantly more time (physical, mental, emotional) than any fan, even if it's by necessity. Most players that move on are either retired, traded, or delisted. A small number of course move because they want to. And most coaches only leave because they get sacked. Fans focus on whinging and whining and making sure the world knows how much the club hurts them. Players and coaches focus on making themselves and their team mates better. Try rocking up to work and having 50, 60, 70, 80,000 fans telling you you're a piece of cr@p, you're only in it for the money, you don't deserve your pay cheque etc., and see how you like it

Players and coaches are professional, and they have to play the game. Of course they will talk about how great their new club is. They can hardly say otherwise.

We'll have to agree to disagree..because I think you're wrong on every point.
Your concentrating on the negative aspects of being a supporter way too much.
Supporters come in all shapes and sizes and the way they support differs wildly.

The behaviours I described in the first post were a bit of a joke based on extremes, but some quite sane and sensible supporters do actually engage in some of those behaviours.
We played the club's song at my Mum's funeral because the club and game were a large part of her life.
 
Football is a 'religion' for some folks, but religion in itself isn't a bad thing, and fills a spot in a lot of folk's lives. There are bad 'religions' but footy isn't one of them.

We don't have the extremes of violence, never had, despite nearly 200 years of Australian football and that supporter passion has been evident all along. One of the reasons for that is the game moves so quickly with lots of scoring, and the fans can have highs and lows within minutes and are pretty much free within reason to express their joy and disappointment, unlike soccer where there are often long pauses between scores.

And while a lot of ex-Carlton footballers are followers of the club, while they play and even once they finish their love, passion and hurt at the losses would be matched by the fans.
I suspect our guys are already talking, and focussed, about Sydney (I hope so) while three days later, we supporters are still suffering from the Collingwood loss.

Re: AFL Rd 10 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #169 –
My current position is similar to a coach like Hardwick. You back your players and coaches in, and defend them as best you can. Give them the BOD, and trust that they are motivated by doing their best for all stakeholders, until it becomes evidently clear they're not. You can be passionate in this way, much like Hardwick was, and that's a much better way of using passion than spouting baseless, negative ill informed drivel on talk back IMO

Re: AFL Rd 10 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #170 –
Sunday was our worst effort for a while. Couple of senior players shirked contests that you would have to consider dropping them for.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: AFL Rd 10 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #171 –
Quote from: PaulP on
My current position is similar to a coach like Hardwick. You back your players and coaches in, and defend them as best you can. Give them the BOD, and trust that they are motivated by doing their best for all stakeholders, until it becomes evidently clear they're not. You can be passionate in this way, much like Hardwick was, and that's a much better way of using passion than spouting baseless, negative ill informed drivel on talk back IMO

That's good you feel that way Paul
But you won't get that across the board.
You can only dictate your own behaviour.
You can't tell people how to support or what is 'good supporting' and 'bad supporting'.
They just won't listen to you, and it's a behaviour you won't change.

With over 80,000 members and probably twice as many supporters you'll get a huge range of behaviour.
For every supporter who says "They're our boys, we have to support them through thick and thin" you'll get the 'Snapper'
But at the end of the day when they hold the cup up, there will be little difference in the joy each group are feeling.

Re: AFL Rd 10 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #173 –
Quote from: Lods on
That's good you feel that way Paul
But you won't get that across the board.
You can only dictate your own behaviour.
You can't tell people how to support or what is 'good supporting' and 'bad supporting'.
They just won't listen to you…………..
.


I can certainly express an opinion about what I think is poor supporter behaviour, and if the Snappers of this world want to come right back at me and tell me my way of supporting sucks, I have no issue with that.

Re: AFL Rd 10 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #174 –
Quote from: PaulP on
.


I can certainly express an opinion about what I think is poor supporter behaviour, and if the Snappers of this world want to come right back at me and tell me my way of supporting sucks, I have no issue with that.

Pauly trust me, there are more Snappers amongst the rank and file the there are "Paulys", by a very long way.
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time

Re: AFL Rd 10 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #175 –
Quote from: LordLucifer on
I heard that clown ring Gerard Whately on SEN too.
Snapper is normally a very good caller on both SEN and AW, he lost the plot the day/night, he is not normally like that and far from a clown.
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time

Re: AFL Rd 10 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #176 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton on
Pauly trust me, there are more Snappers amongst the rank and file the there are "Paulys", by a very long way.

Yes, I think that's true. Supporting a football club doesn't mandate, but certainly encourages, emotional connections and emotional responses. But there is a line IMO.......


Quote from: Gointocarlton on
Snapper is normally a very good caller on both SEN and AW, he lost the plot the day/night, he is not normally like that and far from a clown.

That's good to hear. I'd hate to think that was his default position.

Re: AFL Rd 10 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #177 –
only 1 thing left to do Guys and that is to beat them when we play them again and HOPEFULLY cost them top spot.

Re: AFL Rd 10 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #178 –
I've heard Snapper a good few times also. That call seems the exception rather than the rule. A passionate Bluebagger... we're all a bit, let's say 'overboard' when we're emotional and perhaps hurting.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: AFL Rd 10 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #179 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton on
Snapper is normally a very good caller on both SEN and AW, he lost the plot the day/night, he is not normally like that and far from a clown.

Guys like Snapper, Tommy from Roville and half a dozen others are legends in their own lunch boxes, going from station to station with their opinions, loving the sound of their own voices. They don't consider themselves contributors to the programs, they think they are part of the program.