Carlton Supporters Club

Well, it is over and we lost. But it was not the shocker that it could have been.
We still have a LONG way to go before we will be truly competitive.

To take up from the in game thread, Hendo had an ordinary night. However, when you consider how we get the ball forward, we really don't give him a lot of opportunity.
To be honest, I'd play him in defence for a while to get some form. It has worked well for him in the past.
Unfortunately it leaves a forward line looking vacant. Levi isn't doing a lot and Jones is a waste of space.

Great effort, big improvement in intensity, with Gibbs, Murphy and Judd also improving in their intensity we finish a lot closer but without that class we were no match for the Swans.

Well, it is over and we lost. But it was not the shocker that it could have been.
We still have a LONG way to go before we will be truly competitive.

We've improved!!!! Got 11 pts closer to them than last year...lol!

No Murphy, Gibbs and Judd plus Hendo and Walker were underdone. Our run and flair has been destroyed by Malthouse. Takes weeks to get that going again. Without run you're going no-where. Tackle count was 64, so that was better. Under Mick there was no effort so that was at least alot better. Was hoping Barker could produce a miracle in 3 1/2 days....lol!

Poor Rowe, what a task. He worked so hard and didn't do badly but Buddy is gun and tough to stop when he's going with those opportunities.

Could have been a lot worse I guess but we had a real crack against a very good football side..............oops, just a minute, REBOOT.

Yep, I think most of our known problems were on display tonight but at least we know what they are and can start working on them. Fighting the game out to the end is great start.

Daisy was useless

Geez  750k for that....

Scandalous. ...

Daisy was useless

Geez  750k for that....

Scandalous. ...

If he cost 350k I'd find himself pretty useful, at 750k, well not so much.

Some of our problems:
[1] Jones: Doesn't work hard enough and never gets separation from his opponent. His tank is so small that it just isn't funny. He can barely create a 2nd effort even trying his best. Why did we recruit this guy?
[2] Tutt: He fumbles the ball under pressure. His opponents know it. Get him on the outside and he is a chance of doing something reasonable, but get him in traffic and he is an error waiting to happen.
[3] Rucks: We were smashed in the rucks but we have no options.
[4] Small Forwards: we have none. Where is a Betts or a Garlett now we need them?

I get frustrated sometimes. Hopefully we can change these structural issues now that we have a new coach. We improved our intensity and work rate. We improved our tackling. We are on the way up, but the top looks just so far away.

Buddy kicked 7 and best on ground but interestingly Rowe would be close to our best player. Having said that he got "only" 4 on Rowe in 3 1/2 qtrs.

Unbelievable but Rowe after having 7 kicked on him is probably in our best three!

Could have been a lot worse I guess but we had a real crack against a very good football side..............oops, just a minute, REBOOT.

Yep, I think most of our known problems were on display tonight but at least we know what they are and can start working on them. Fighting the game out to the end is great start.

Correct with a capital "C". We had no idea what was going on because the players really couldn't give a rats freckle. At least now that they showed some effort we see what needs to be done. Don't think SOS is not watching things even closer now. He will really see a few things in the next 6 weeks.

Murphy as spotted in the box and buried his head in his hands on a few mistakes by Cripps. I think he finally wants to see us win. Maybe tonight might turn a few things around. We just need a few more 1%'ers, spoils crunches and sheppards. Work on small things to build a system to improve. The side still looks a little lost in confidence. I am certain we are on the up from here.

Correction Jimbo onlly 4.

Daisy was useless

Geez  750k for that....

Scandalous. ...

Well, we took a risk and it didn't pay off. Time to recognize that he is never going to be a star again.
Fair enough. Getting rid of him isn't the answer. There is no way we can recoup our losses, either financially or recruiting wise. We simply have to persevere with him and get what we can out of him while his body is adequate.

Some of our problems:
[1] Jones: Doesn't work hard enough and never gets separation from his opponent. His tank is so small that it just isn't funny. He can barely create a 2nd effort even trying his best. Why did we recruit this guy?
[2] Tutt: He fumbles the ball under pressure. His opponents know it. Get him on the outside and he is a chance of doing something reasonable, but get him in traffic and he is an error waiting to happen.
[3] Rucks: We were smashed in the rucks but we have no options.
[4] Small Forwards: we have none. Where is a Betts or a Garlett now we need them?

I get frustrated sometimes. Hopefully we can change these structural issues now that we have a new coach. We improved our intensity and work rate. We improved our tackling. We are on the way up, but the top looks just so far away.

All ticks there. We just must leave Jones out. He's awful.

Smashed in the ruck but won the clearances again. We're good at that part.

Well, we took a risk and it didn't pay off. Time to recognize that he is never going to be a star again.
Fair enough. Getting rid of him isn't the answer. There is no way we can recoup our losses, either financially or recruiting wise. We simply have to persevere with him and get what we can out of him while his body is adequate.

He always be decent if we look at it from a "non 750k" view. He just won't be great and live up to the dough he's getting and that's how he'll be judged. He does work hard. Essentially we bought a 400k footballer at best for 750k.

Lest we forgot the scandal, arguably rort, that is Buddy's 10 year contract.

A disgrace, again, from the pathetic spineless AFL.

Great effort, big improvement in intensity, with Gibbs, Murphy and Judd also improving in their intensity we finish a lot closer but without that class we were no match for the Swans.

We missed Judd but I'm not so sure the other two were missed that much.....Bell and Cripps got plenty of ball and did all the heavy work, Dylan Buckley is a goer and as Cameron Ling said should never play as the sub again and needs game time.
Wood was excellent in the ruck IMO and I thought Graham while not having much of the ball did put himself in and like Buckley needs the work and more game time..

Jones and Tutt need delisting.....
Touhy is overated and need dropping
Walker is nearly gone IMO and like Daisy looks heavy in the legs...that latter started ok but faded out as in previous games..
Henderson needs it lace out as a forward and wont get that service with us and needs to play down back...he isnt strong enough in the air to play KP forward.
Levi was ok in patches...
Everitt is better midfield or forward....
Docherty was ok
Menzel must be injured because he was useless.....
Armfield...honest trier
Cripps....great at the coalface but struggles to hit targets by foot but his handball is good and has clean hands....
Bell....a leader in many respects, strongest player at the footy, can break tackles etc but just lacks a bit of class with his use of the ball but he doesnt give in and we are seeing
second and third efforts....a player to keep and pair with Cripps for the future....
White....poor bugger, gets the oversized players every week and gets smashed...
Rowe...good IMO and tried hard.....
Simpson... battled away as always
Curnow...tagged Hanneberry I think and was ok at his role but didnt gte much of the footy, Hanneberry got away after half time..

Only saw the second half, so can only comment on a side that was 6 goals down going into the break.

Better effort all around, but the same issues that have beset the side for years, namely poor kicking and a lack of run.

Cripps, Curnow and Bell did well around the packs, and Docherty gave some run, along with Simpson.

Jones went missing as per usual, so no surprises there, and Henderson was underdone as expected. Everitt looked better up forward, and may be a better option than Jones around half forward as he seems to be better at meeting the ball directly. At least he moves a little more. Casboult did ok and his kicking is getting better. Hope Yarran's ankle is allright for next week.

Still, a black cloud has been lifted from the club and we can look forward to building something better. We have so far to go but things can turn around quicker than expected.  They all need to work on the little efforts such as getting onto the mark, shepherding,  and the like. This is what limits scores against rather than one on one heroic efforts. Bring on next week.

Yep
I'd be looking at giving Everitt a few weeks stint in the Jones/Watson role.

I'd be looking at giving Everitt a few weeks stint in the Jones/Watson role.

Agree....is more mobile rather than being a mark and kick player...needs space to work in though...

Yep
I'd be looking at giving Everitt a few weeks stint in the Jones/Watson role.

HIT. NAIL. HEAD.

Exactly what I was thinking Lods.......best shot for goal in the team by a mile too.

......Hendo and Walker were underdone......

I reckon you're being very kind - especially in Walker's case....

Need to make sure Casboult gets a run in the ruck early and gets his hands it it. When he does he's a different player both in the ruck and up forward. Leave him stuck on the forward line the way the ball comes in and you can see his confidence and game disintegrate.

Isn't it a sad state of affairs when we lose by 10 goals, but reckon we went okay.....*sigh*

Elwood, I am really sorry to question Everitt on your knowledge of his improved games since leaving the bulldogs. However he is another fail for me. He has the height and is athletic, but just doesn't do enough to damage the scoreboard. He just runs around like a Bower. Sorry to compare the 2, but he will become our next Bower. Potential, but no real ability over the full 4 quarters of a match. Yoyo boy will be my new knick-name for him. Sorry buddy, don't take this as anything against you. I respect all your posts but he is only slightly better than Jones. Actually heaps better than Jones, but then again if we delist both, they will never get a game at any club ever again. IMO. Cheers Elwood.

Graham 14 touches 7 tackles. Some decent inside work, needs to find those 10 outside disposals as well and he's on his way.

I reckon you're being very kind - especially in Walker's case....

Actually, the 3 blokes who had problems late pre-season, Murphy, Gibbs and Walker and struggled this year. Either get Walker into the midfield, as he has pace and a tank, or up forward. Never been great in defence. We've played him there for years and it hasn't always been good. We did draft him as a mid, we need them but we never play him there. Let a bloke run around and get a few touches and things can change. Or he kicks 50 in a year then we send him back again. Why? I have no idea.

I think there's an elephant in the room: Is Troy Menzel really as good as everyone is making out he is??

Isn't it a sad state of affairs when we lose by 10 goals, but reckon we went okay.....*sigh*

The killer is having no run. Run is everything, creates space going forward and makes skills look better as forwards have more space to run onto the ball. That was our strength before, and a strength late last year, hence we were very competitive. Mick literally killed that run and flair and will take a few weeks to re-learn that. Other's stuff was alot better but without run you'll struggle.

I think there's an elephant in the room: Is Troy Menzel really as good as everyone is making out he is??

Was on and off the ground and could be carrying an injury but agree he is struggling...lacks a yard of pace and needs to improve his defensive work.
Would probably kick a lot of goals in a better team but has to work harder with us and I dont think thats his cup of tea at the moment....unless like I said he
is carrying an injury...

I think there's an elephant in the room: Is Troy Menzel really as good as everyone is making out he is??

Yes, got 4 last week. Leg injury hampered him badly and was eventually subbed because of it.

I think there's an elephant in the room: Is Troy Menzel really as good as everyone is making out he is??

Has talent
no drive
no hardness
no fitness

Just another rodgers pick..

He hasn't played 50 games yet In the hardest position On the field in the most dysfunctional forward line with the slowest ball movement in the comp.

Geez.

He hasn't played 50 games yet In the hardest position On the field in the most dysfunctional forward line with the slowest ball movement in the comp.

Geez.

3 years....3 pre seasons....should be fitter...goes to ground too easily..

Said the same thing about Robbie Gray

Tex was a 50 goal forward 4-5 years back…remember the hanger on Carlisle Bumbers at the G?

WTF have we turned him into?….under Ratts he was a run and gunn half forward doing major damage now he's been transformed to a hesitant running half back going sideways….Sheeesh we farked up some good players over the last 8-10 years…we've ripped out the soul of a bunch of attacking players with flair….makes we want to weep

To take up from the in game thread, Hendo had an ordinary night. However, when you consider how we get the ball forward, we really don't give him a lot of opportunity.
To be honest, I'd play him in defence for a while to get some form. It has worked well for him in the past.
Unfortunately it leaves a forward line looking vacant. Levi isn't doing a lot and Jones is a waste of space.

I think we should drop Jones and play Jaksch up forward.  Cant do ant worse than Jones who is a witches hat out there

Tex was a 50 goal forward 4-5 years back…remember the hanger on Carlisle Bumbers at the G?

WTF have we turned him into?….under Ratts he was a run and gunn half forward doing major damage now he's been transformed to a hesitant running half back going sideways….Sheeesh we farked up some good players over the last 8-10 years…we've ripped out the soul of a bunch of attacking players with flair….makes we want to weep

They have gotten a bit older and either lost a yard or the new lot have gotten quicker.  4 years is a long time in football.   Ask lance whitnall.

They have gotten a bit older and either lost a yard or the new lot have gotten quicker.  4 years is a long time in football.   Ask lance whitnall.

Or played in the wrong spot.

Jones needs to be tried as a true defender. Make him work and really work hard tagging a forward target. If at worst he breaks even he has done a job, and stopped us from being belted. If he fails he needs to go. He has minimal talent and has nothing else to offer. Maybe we can build a backline from our forward line and SOS can bring in the forwards we really need.

Tex was a 50 goal forward 4-5 years back…remember the hanger on Carlisle Bumbers at the G?

WTF have we turned him into?….under Ratts he was a run and gunn half forward doing major damage now he's been transformed to a hesitant running half back going sideways

He was terrible in 2012 up forward under Ratten. Mick put him down back in 2013 and he had his best year, then he dropped off. In summary he can't back up one good season with another.

Missing, not only Judd, Murph and Gibbs, but also Jammo and Kreuzer. That's a lot of class out of the side.

At least we saw some effort tonight, poor skills and execution let us down many many times.

We need to find a small lock down defender. Touhy is currently used as our number 1 small defender. To me, he is better suited as an attacking half back flanker, but we need to develop someone to replace him on the full back line.

I want to see Walker used forward, I would like to see Buckley used off a wing or defensive/pressure forward.

Cripps is an absolute gem, Graham - 14 touches and 7 tackles, not bad for his 1st full game in how long?

Why, when we are short on key defenders, not play Watson back there? Expecting Simon White to cover guys like Buddy and Tippett is just ridiculous.

Elwood, I am really sorry to question Everitt on your knowledge of his improved games since leaving the bulldogs. However he is another fail for me. He has the height and is athletic, but just doesn't do enough to damage the scoreboard. He just runs around like a Bower. Sorry to compare the 2, but he will become our next Bower. Potential, but no real ability over the full 4 quarters of a match. Yoyo boy will be my new knick-name for him. Sorry buddy, don't take this as anything against you. I respect all your posts but he is only slightly better than Jones. Actually heaps better than Jones, but then again if we delist both, they will never get a game at any club ever again. IMO. Cheers Elwood.

Mants...I'm no oracle on or apologist for Everiit  so happy to accept your opinions and anyone elses, I agree he isnt impacting for 4 quarters and can look sloppy/laconic but I think he has more natural talent than a lot of blokes on our list and can be useful in a better team. He wont ever be a prime mover but is more a finisher/add some polish type player.
I think some of us think he can convert better than most and play that 3rd tall forward role but he does need to work on his defensive game/ application as he can go missing when it gets tough and frustrate people like your good self...in a poor team like ours he can be lazy and still look good and I take your point about lack of impact on a consistent basis....

Walker started forward tonight and was hopeless.

I think there's an elephant in the room: Is Troy Menzel really as good as everyone is making out he is??

No, give him to Geelong for their 1st rounder, maybe his heart is already there.

Probably our best trade bait.

He was terrible in 2012 up forward under Ratten. Mick put him down back in 2013 and he had his best year, then he dropped off. In summary he can't back up one good season with another.

Had his best year in 2011 kicking 56 goals. 2012, didn't play until round 5, so obviously he lost a bit of his pre-season. Lost quite a few games later in the year too. Games he did play he did pretty well. Didn't always play forward but still hit the scoreboard. Should've been kept up forward as his game went gradually backwards again down back as it had previously.

Walker came 2nd in the best and fairest in 2013 playing HBF.

Walker started forward tonight and was hopeless.

Been out for a while and underdone. Hard work in our forward line even when your fit right now, unlike 2011 (remember who our coach was then???). Thank your mate for that problem, he's decimated our run and flair. What was once a strength is now a weakness. Without run your club goes no-where.

Walker came 2nd in the best and fairest in 2013 playing HBF.

And kicked 56 goals playing forward. Kicking 56 goals up forward is a much tougher task than playing half back.

Disintegrated since playing down back after that.

And kicked 56 goals playing forward.

Disintegrated since playing down back.

2012 happened.

2012 happened.

It did, like many, he was injured early on and lost a pre-season. Part of a decimated side.

2015 is still happening. So bad the coach lost his job. At least when Ratts lost his job we were 11-10. Imagine being 11-10 with a decimated side, sooooooo far off it beyond the horizon. You'll kill for that right now.

Let's be honest for once.

We are cr@p.

The only real talent with a future in that team tonight was Cripps and he lacks leg speed.

Yes, Buckley is a goer, and I need to see more of Graham to gauge whether or not he has any real ability other than going into a pack and falling on the ball.

We don't have a forward line and we definitely don't have a back line, and my grand pappy used to tell me, that without those, "it's bloody hard to win a game son."

Menzel is a disappointment even when he's not injured and that is his problem. With knee reconstructions and bad shoulders, how long can he last at this caper.

Levi, was serviceable, and Sav has definitely improved his kicking. Jones and Tutt are complete waste of spaces. Another great recruiting job well done.

Thomas, can we get a refund please. Walker, completely gone. Forget about underdone, even when he's well done, he is no longer the player he was. The game is too quick and far to hard for him.

Wood, battled manfully against a taller stronger opponent and tried hard.

Bell, this bloke is built like a tank, but totally lacks skill. Dropped easy chest marks, and unlike Cripps whose hands are like super glue and the ball sticks, just kept dropping ball after ball tonight. He makes the same blues every week, and I don't know if he can get better. Yes, he's gutsy, and sometimes in a good team, it's enough. In our team, all the shortcomings are on full display.

Curnow, got absolutely smashed by Hannebery. It was obvious to me, anyway, that he had not recovered after the emotion of last weeks loss when he played his guts out against Sewell.

Henderson. PLEASE DO NOT RESIGN HIM!!. I HEARD THAT HE WANTS TO LEAVE, BUT THE WAY HE IS PLAYING, HE WON"T GET A CLUB TO TAKE HIM. HE CANNOT TAKE A CONTESTED MARK TO SAVE HIS LIFE. It is quite obvious that his heart is just not in it.

Carazzo, lots of possys as usual. I can't think of one time when anything he did or any possession that he had, had an influence on our team or resulted in something good happening.

Armfield, a brainless hack, always was, always will be.

Yarran, the less said the better. As long as the ball is fed to him and he can show off, he's happy.  But you can't get him to tackle, or chase after an opponent.

Simpson, usual trying hard job, but at end of career.

Rowe. No comment, except to say that every time he goes near the ball I need a change of nappies. At least I used to when it really mattered. Now it doesn't matter anymore, so I'm saving a fortune on nappies. The fact that this man with such limited ability, a total lack of a football brain, whose second efforts are non-existent, is said to be by some our best player tonight, is all you need to know about where this team is headed unless major changes are made.

Touhy, not a brain to bless himself with. Overrated because he is a long kick. Would not get a game in any top team.

White, a battler.

Docherty, would be good in a good team. Has got ability, still young and will improve if we ever do.

Once again, it absolutely gave me the shiiites that we did not have a set forward line. By that I mean, that Barker did not give instructions to two of his forwards to stay in the forward line AT ALL TIMES. So as per usual, we would get the ball, look up, and there was no one in the forward line to kick it to.

I would have copped a 20 goal defeat, if Barker could have shown just a bit of flair with his game plan.

Longmire had Rampe as a spare man in defence for a lot of the game, and Barker did nothing to counter it.

Cr@p typical Malthouse thinking and coaching.

Anyway, as I said, we are cr@p. Yes, they tried hard, but you blokes have conveniently forgotten that they are paid in some cases up to 6 and 7 times more a year than the posters on this site get. THEY SHOULD BE AT LEAST FKING TRYING!!

And because most of you are so easy to please, you say, look at that, we had more tackles than last week. Yipee!!.

We are in for a long rest of the year.
So sit back, relax, and just count down the weeks until we can forget about this year, and look forward to HOPEFULLY, some improvement next year.

The game was over after Buddy kicked his 3rd goal in the first 15 minutes on White. What were we thinking there?

In the end they had 10 more scoring shots, all goals. Could have quite easily been 5.5 and we lose by 35 points. Massive improvement in attitude, can't wait for the rest of the year! Haters EAD!

When you take into consideration :

- our outs
- traveling interstate
- playing a top 4 team, at pretty much full strength on their own dung heap
- the turmoil of the last 2 weeks.
- new coach for 2 or 3 days
- pre match predictions that we would lose by 100+

It was better than anyone expected. No doubt people will say the Swans took their foot off the pedal, and maybe they did. Nice to see a bit of effort.

When you take into consideration :

- our outs
- traveling interstate
- playing a top 4 team, at pretty much full strength on their own dung heap
- the turmoil of the last 2 weeks.
- new coach for 2 or 3 days
- pre match predictions that we would lose by 100+

It was better than anyone expected. No doubt people will say the Swans took their foot off the pedal, and maybe they did. Nice to see a bit of effort.

Agree, our blokes toughed it out and showed the spirit we were all demanding from them. That's something to build on. We just lack skill and class in enough measure. We have a long road ahead of us for sure but if we develop around our better younger players led by Cripps and we can add in more skilled ones via the trade and draft period things could definitely start looking up a bit next year. It's also critical to retain a few of the right senior guys to add some stability during the transition, Simmo and Rowe being two examples.

It is great to show effort but I want to see effort in a game plan instead of just continually winging it.

It was late in the game but I liked it when we broke from the centre fast and quickly passed it to a leading forward who goaled. it looked great and simple. ::)

The game was over after Buddy kicked his 3rd goal in the first 15 minutes on White. What were we thinking there?

I'm guessing the idea was that White is more mobile than Rowe, Buddy is more mobile than Tippett, hence the match ups at the start of the game.

Sometimes match ups aren't ideal. In our case it was the lesser of two evils. Match ups are also speculative at times. They had a go, White wasn't working on Buddy, so they switched.

We simply don't have the required manpower to create ideal match ups on every line every second of the game. Swinging Henderson from forward to back, switching Rowe and White etc. solves one problem but creates another.

EDIT : I would also suggest the game was over well before it even started, but that's just my opinion.

When you take into consideration :

- our outs
- traveling interstate
- playing a top 4 team, at pretty much full strength on their own dung heap
- the turmoil of the last 2 weeks.
- new coach for 2 or 3 days
- pre match predictions that we would lose by 100+

It was better than anyone expected. No doubt people will say the Swans took their foot off the pedal, and maybe they did. Nice to see a bit of effort.

Agree. No one is happy with a 10 goal loss but considering where we're at and who took the field last night and who our opponents were, I thought there were good signs.

Once again, it absolutely gave me the shiiites that we did not have a set forward line. By that I mean, that Barker did not give instructions to two of his forwards to stay in the forward line AT ALL TIMES. So as per usual, we would get the ball, look up, and there was no one in the forward line to kick it to.

I would have copped a 20 goal defeat, if Barker could have shown just a bit of flair with his game plan.

Longmire had Rampe as a spare man in defence for a lot of the game, and Barker did nothing to counter it.

Cr@p typical Malthouse thinking and coaching.

It concerns me greatly that Barker said in his aftermatch presser that he'd spoken with Malthouse twice later in the week after his sacking. I would hate to think that the guy we sacked is actually mentoring his replacement.

Great to see Cripps leading the way for a lot of the game.
Doesn't mind a bit of the rough stuff either which is good to see.
Need more players like him and Bucks with a bit of mongal
Rowe was good on Buddy.
Graham did ok, but needs more time to get some consistancy.
Jones and Tutt proved  what a waste of space they are.
Sav is doing a good job with Big Levi. Can see the improvement in his set shots
Another solid game by Doc.
Boy do Sydney get away with a lot with the umps up there at the SCG!!.
Adam Goodes proved once and for all why he's a total tossbag, and is not very liked. Once again will make the indigenous Round all about him!! Attention seeking fkwit!! People don't boo him because his Aboriginal.. People boo him because he's a diving, attention seeking flog!!!

Cmon Dom that is harsh re Goodes, as I've said previously, a portion of the those booers are definitely racist and those that aren't are providing a cover for them. Just disgraceful.

Yeah I agree with your point. I have no doubt that a portion of booers are racist pricks.
But it he doesn't want to draw attention to the situation any more than he already has, and it doesnt affect him like he says, why does he get in the faces of supporters and fuel the haters ?
If its just a racial thing, why is it just him that they booed last night ? Didn't hear anyone booing Jetta or Buddy last night.

Because he's made a public stand against racism and he's an easy target because he puts himself out there.

People don't boo him because his Aboriginal.. People boo him because he's a diving, attention seeking flog!!!

AFL supporters hate staging, as age has crept up on Goodes he has become worse than Bumber Lloyd, Roo Thomas, Patch Adams and Docker Ballantine combined!

Sure there may be racist fans, one or two in a crowd, but not thousands as the media imply. If you start believing the media you're in for a world of hurt!

Watts, Judd, Goddard and Hird get booed every week, you don't hear them bitching about it!

I thought Thomas was ok last night, he tried hard with and without the ball, I thought he tried to show some leadership but in the end was just overwhelmed and he is definitely carrying injuries

Sure there may be racist fans, one or two in a crowd, but not thousands as the media imply. If you start believing the media you're in for a world of hurt!

How do you know this? In reality, you are implying as well. Australia as a country is enormously racist.

The mums and kids he aggressively pretended to throw a spear at didn't exactly look like your typical racists but then again it was a young girl who did abuse him a couple of years ago.

How do you know this? In reality, you are implying as well. Australia as a country is enormously racist.

You'd have to be living in a cupboard to believe a large percentage of the population was racist! Racists are a minority, if they weren't The White Australia policy would still be in place!

The truth is simple, Goodes has turned out to be a tool who wants to provoke people, he wants the reaction.

He cannot call for acceptance and tolerance then fake throwing spears at people! He can't have it both ways, if he wants rules he has to live by them too, with respect for everybody!

He disrespects people, and he disrespects the sport by staging!

Throwing rocks is never a solution, and he throws plenty!

How do you know this? In reality, you are implying as well. Australia as a country is enormously racist.

!00% agree.

If Tuohy did an Irish Jig after scoring a goal against Goodes, Goodes would label him a racist and ask the AFL to have him banned or fined!

A 10 goal loss is a 10 goal loss, it's basically a flogging.
The only thing to take out of last night is that we kept plugging away until the last bell but we are so far down on talent it isn't funny.
No key forwards, no key backs and no ruckman won't win many games of football and it will take four to five years to fix even if by some miracle we start to get our drafting and trading strategies right.
Last years draft and trade was a shocker even by our low standards so it's hard to be confident.
As for Goodes I agree with PI2C and a few others, I think a lot of what he cops is because he's put racism out there and told the world he won't stand for it, and good on him I reckon.
Some of the bad karma he gets is just because he doesn't wear the right colours and football supporters are notorious for hating anyone who isn't part of their tribe, but most of it is because of what he stands for.

As for Goodes I agree with PI2C and a few others, I think a lot of what he cops is because he's put racism out there and told the world he won't stand for it, and good on him I reckon.
Some of the bad karma he gets is just because he doesn't wear the right colours and football supporters are notorious for hating anyone who isn't part of their tribe, but most of it is because of what he stands for.

Spot on mate, he cops it because he's made a stand against racism. Disgraceful it is.

The game showed that we are years behind in developing competitive structures at either end of the ground.  Defence is a team issue, not something based upon individuals.  Our forward line is similar and not a coherent unit.  IMO this is a reason why a certain person is no longer at the club.

Considering the fact he was isolated one out and with the swine's delivery I thought that Rowe did an excellent job.    Rowe at least halved the contests on a player who has consistently flogged us.  Yes he is a limited footballer, but we have no other options in defence.  To his credit he beat Buddy in the “initial” or aerial contests… the problem then came where Buddy did his usual go-left-side-take hand pass- shot on goal flanker routine… so where the hell where the support players – Touhy and Walker – that are supposed to screen the contest and prevent scoring opportunities from the secondary contest?  Non existent - a classic example of a lack of team defence.

Once matched up more appropriately I thought White did a decent job on Tippett – the quintessential flat track bully.  Another golden child umpire’s favourite, Tippet pushes at every aerial contest, is immune to HTB and gets a lot of lee way.  White showed him up to be a weak player… Delivery like last night and he did F-all.

Touhy must be either played further up the ground or dropped.  Has no idea about positioning himself in defence.  He must be used in a role that optimises his skill set.

Walker runs as if he has concrete legs – the injuries have caught up with him and he is, unfortunately, mentally and physically shot.   We can’t carry him at senior level any longer.

Our forward line is a mess and a big part of why we play so ineffectively.  Forwards are supposed to be like traffic cops, and direct the mids where to kick the ball, with the bomb saved for “I’m under pressure” occasions.  Jones, is in football terms, brainless and he doesn't draw the mids to kick to good locations.   The only hope for him now is to be played at CHB and hope that he gets drawn to the ball by a decent forward.   Henderson has the footy smarts and nous to play forward but lacks the body strength to perform the role.  He also gets shamelessly mauled in every contest.   Levi’s long shot on goal was a ripper and he is clearly improving in that regard.

I thought Buckley’s opportunist goal was something we haven’t seen this year (beat defence for pace and nous) and I would like to continue to see him played in a more attacking role for the rest of the year.  But he must get stronger or he has no future.

Everitt worries me at times but as EB pointed out, he is handy and can play many roles.  Menzel really worries me... he can't play injured and he isn't working hard enough.

Touhy must be either played further up the ground or dropped.  Has no idea about positioning himself in defence.  He must be used in a role that optimises his skill set.

Tuohy had his free thinking coached out of him!

The whole side has lost the ability to act instinctively, they have been condemned by the Malthouse regime to play out their careers full of doubt, fear and indecision. They may never recover, they are now a bunch of mindless automatons!

From what I'm lead to believe it was a modified version of a dance that was done before tribes went into battle. If that was the case, do it before the game. Don't do it after a goal at the Carlton supporters when your side is 8 goals up.

American sport penalizes over the top celebrations after a score in both the NBA and NFL, because of its potential to to inflame the opposition. Woulg have Goodes done that last week against Hawthorn it that was the indigenous round? What would have been the response of the Hawthorn team? I bet it would have been a near all in.

There was not the level of distaste shown towards Long or Winmar when they spoke out against their treatment at a time of less public awareness. Carlton people booed Long because he was a great player who seemed to tear us a new one everytime he played us.

It has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with Goodes being a flog.

Just listened to Barker's presser - thought he was ok to be honest.

Whilst a little repetitive (possibly in response to the questions he was asked, which always seem inaudible on my computer), I thought his approach was good. No antagonism, short, succinct answers, managed to give answers that sounded like answers without revealing much, no blaming players etc. Didn't look uncomfortable to me.

Pretty good first effort.

From what I'm lead to believe it was a modified version of a dance that was done before tribes went into battle. If that was the case, do it before the game. Don't do it after a goal at the Carlton supporters when your side is 8 goals up.

American sport penalizes over the top celebrations after a score in both the NBA and NFL, because of its potential to to inflame the opposition. Woulg have Goodes done that last week against Hawthorn it that was the indigenous round? What would have been the response of the Hawthorn team? I bet it would have been a near all in.

There was not the level of distaste shown towards Long or Winmar when they spoke out against their treatment at a time of less public awareness. Carlton people booed Long because he was a great player who seemed to tear us a new one everytime he played us.

It has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with Goodes being a flog.

Bulldust, and just because C7 says it was towards the Carlton section doesn't mean it was, if you look at the shot from behind him there were Sydney fans directly in front of him.

Then Cameras must go around corners then, because the angle that Fox showed from behind had him going right at a number people in blue that looked a whole lot like Carlton supporters to me.

It was another look at me action from Goodes. It's the same reason that Akermanis was booed.

Haters will hate, they see what they want to see, Goodes is a hater! ;)

Haters will hate, they see what they want to see, Goodes is a hater! ;)

It does worry me that he is held in high regard by so many. I can't see any good reason to regard him as anything but a squealer and a hypocrite. I wouldn't care if he was pink and had purple spots (although I would hate it if he had green blood and pointy ears).
Goodes sees what he wants to see and squeals. When it comes to going the other way, he is worse than those he condemns. Why? Because he hides behind a holier than thou attitude while displaying the same traits he is condemning.
I may be able to respect him as a player, but as a person I think he is not something I would want anyone to emulate.

A 10 goal loss is a 10 goal loss, it's basically a flogging.
The only thing to take out of last night is that we kept plugging away until the last bell but we are so far down on talent it isn't funny.
No key forwards, no key backs and no ruckman won't win many games of football and it will take four to five years to fix even if by some miracle we start to get our drafting and trading strategies right.
Last years draft and trade was a shocker even by our low standards so it's hard to be confident.
As for Goodes I agree with PI2C and a few others, I think a lot of what he cops is because he's put racism out there and told the world he won't stand for it, and good on him I reckon.
Some of the bad karma he gets is just because he doesn't wear the right colours and football supporters are notorious for hating anyone who isn't part of their tribe, but most of it is because of what he stands for.

I believe some of prime guns have playing injured or are out. Murphy, Gibbs and Walker missed the later part of the pre-season and probably only played to help Mick keep his job. The way they've played it's looked like it. Some one said Murphy has been carrying that calf he had all season. Our full back missed alot of the year, our CHF is out of touch and missing time through injury too. Of course Judd missed as well. Coverage for that lot is a pretty tough gig. Those blokes playing in form give us a spine and a midfield.

Anyway, like to see Touhy tried further up the field as not much is happening back in defence. Further up the field he can run and roost a long bomb at goal. Like to see Buckley closer to goal too as he is capable of sneaking a few. Jaksch surely has to be better than Jones. Casboult must get an early run in the ruck. Once he gets his hands on the ball a few times his confidence seems up for the rest of the day. he then plays well as a ruck and forward. Stuck on the forward line and you see his confidence disintegrate, even more so with our delivery.

Essentially we have to re-learn how to run, spread and carry. Weren't bad at it late last year and certainly a strength in the Ratten days. After effort, without run your are nothing. Creates space, hence better skills and makes life so much easier for the forwards.

It does worry me that he is held in high regard by so many. I can't see any good reason to regard him as anything but a squealer and a hypocrite. I wouldn't care if he was pink and had purple spots (although I would hate it if he had green blood and pointy ears).
Goodes sees what he wants to see and squeals. When it comes to going the other way, he is worse than those he condemns. Why? Because he hides behind a holier than thou attitude while displaying the same traits he is condemning.
I may be able to respect him as a player, but as a person I think he is not something I would want anyone to emulate.

We live in very PC times. Goodes is of this time. He can do no wrong and if anyone criticises him they will be branded. Good footballer but a bit of an arse IMO.

I believe some of prime guns have playing injured or are out. Murphy, Gibbs and Walker missed the later part of the pre-season and probably only played to help Mick keep his job. The way they've played it's looked like it. Some one said Murphy has been carrying that calf he had all season. Our full back missed alot of the year, our CHF is out of touch and missing time through injury too. Of course Judd missed as well. Coverage for that lot is a pretty tough gig. Those blokes playing in form give us a spine and a midfield.

Gibbs and Murphy give us much needed class but they certainly don't give us a spine.
Jamison and Kreuzer are the only two tall players of any note missing from last night and they are both terminally injured, we can't rely on either of them going forward and Jamison must be hitting 30 anyway.
Our stock of tall players is abysmal, by far the worst in the AFL, and unless we can do something to address it in the next three or four seasons all the run and carry in the world won't win us games of football.
We should see if there are any takers for Henderson for starters, he's as good now as he's ever going to be and it's nothing flash, the rest of them aren't worth a zac between them.

I can't agree with you on hendo... We have zip KPP, so we get rid of the best one we have ?
And if we do draft one this year, he's unlikely to produce much for 2-4 years anyway.
Hendo must stay, play him wherever he best serves the team.

Hendo HAS to be played at CHB I believe. We need to build our defence with the  injury and possible pending departure of Jamo and Hendo prefers to play back by all accounts. I just don't understand why this doesn't happen. If he settles there for the rest of the year and is successful he might even stay with us. All of a sudden our defence at least would start to look quite respectable and we could build on that.

Obviously the problem is that if Hendos playing chb then who is he kicking to ?

Obviously the problem is that if Hendos playing chb then who is he kicking to ?

Well we then have one problem to solve. Now we have two, one at each end of the ground.

After the bye the following guys will (should?)be available

Judd
Murphy
Gibbs
Jamison
Krooz
Byrne

Also, Henderson, Walker and Thomas should be able to contribute a bit more.


I'd also like to see KJ playing forward.

It may not appear it on here, but I'm really an optimist about life in general, so it pains me when I write negative stuff about a football club that has been such a large part of my life for 62 years.
So I'm going to write a positive post.

I am POSITIVE, that, IF we had Judd, Murphy, Cripps, Gibbs, Simpson, Kruezer, Henderson, Casboult, Menzel, Everrit, Walker, Yarran, Thomas, and Jamieson, all hard fit and well, that's 14 players who at their top are and were terrific footballers, there is no doubt, that even with 8 passengers, we would give most teams a run for their money.

Our problem is, that most of them are either injured, or have lost the run, skill and some of the ability that they had as younger players, or are not playing with any heart or interest.

So unfortunately, as much as it pains me to say so, I am POSITIVE that we are in for a very long, hard and frustrating year.

When our supporters look at last nights results, and because we had  some better efforts from some players who are paid a fortune to play that way EVERY WEEK,  they feel that a ten goal thrashing was a good result, I am POSITIVE, that they are living in a Utopian fairyland and are prepared to accept mediocrity in  their football team.

On the other hand, I am a realist, who knows that we don't have the cattle to perform very much better than what we are, and all I hope is, that this season is a great learning curve for our younger brigade, Cripps, Menzel Buckley, etc. and lays the foundations for a POSITIVE future for the club.

Obviously the problem is that if Hendos playing chb then who is he kicking to ?

The CHB Henderson would not kick it to the CHF Henderson cause he can't mark it.

We need cool seniors heads in the back line to give leadership and steadiness, Henderson has always played better at CHB and if Baker has half a brain that's where he'll play him.

The CHB Henderson would not kick it to the CHF Henderson cause he can't mark it.

We need cool seniors heads in the back line to give leadership and steadiness, Henderson has always played better at CHB and if Baker has half a brain that's where he'll play him.

x2

Was at the game live so hopefully can add something different.

Jones - just putrid. Watched him closely for the 1st half as I had not seen him live before. He has no idea where to run to lead so basically clogs the forward line. Never looked like taking a mark, goes to ground, and then gets up and either walks or jogs off looking for his man. Intensity level of zero. Just embarrassing that our recruiters thought he could play.
Surely KJ is a better bet and might learn something if played up forward.

Tutt - tries really hard and runs to position but panics under pressure and not good in the contest. Either play him up forward or not at all.

Armfield - gives effort but his turnovers and decisions kill you and nothing has changed for 4 years. Time to move on and give others a chance.

Walker - started forward but never looked like it. His glory years appear well and truly past. Has lost his natural athleticism that was the key to his game. This often made up for the fact that he has poor foot skills, not a good decision maker and poor tackler / contested ball winner. Like many on here I think he is a shot duck.

Henderson - tried pretty hard and spent a lot of time talking to his team mates, and is clearly an on field leader. I just think his injuries mean that he doesn't have the speed or endurance to play key position. He can't get separation on his opponent and they close on him easily. I think he has therefore lost confidence in his marking. I don't really know what else they can do other than keep playing him and hope he regains fitness, speed and some form.

Daisy - in a team desperate for skill and polish he actually has some, but doesn't do anywhere near enough. Seagulls too much for mine. Has good intent and makes pretty good decisions when he has the ball, he just needs to get the ball about 10 more times per game to make a difference. He is the cream, but we paid for the cake!

Carrazzo - surely gone at the end of the year. Gets a bit of the ball, but no zip and doesn't hurt with his possessions. Looked to be struggling with the pace of the game a lot of the time. A great servant, but well past his best now. Thanks for the memories.

Menzel - again never looked like making an impact. Doesn't have the pace and fitness to play high half forward, and doesn't have the pace and evasion for the small forward role either. Just hope it's his injury that is restricting him as he gave us nothing.

Yarran - weaknesses are glaring, but he still has more speed, poise and polish then any other player out there. In an ordinary team his weaknesses are always going to be exposed.

Everrit - very laconic but at least he kept battling away. He has skill, size and speed so he stands out against his team mates, but is therefore frustrating. You would love him as your bottom 5 depth player, but we need him to be much more than that. His career has shown he is what he is, and that's not likely to change, but he was still better than most last night.

Rowe & White - good honest battlers who are simply punching out of their weight. They are State league level players. I love that they try and they care, but I hate that our recruiting means that they are the best we have to play FB & CHB.

Bell - my greatest fear is we produce another Armfield or Robbo with this guy. Hasn't seemed to improve on his glaring weaknesses and brain fades over the last 2 years.

Graham - tried hard and doesn't panic. Should get a clear run of 10 games to see if he improves. Need to play him over carrots IMO.


The first thing we have to do is get rid of Tutt, Jones and Armfield and play KJ, BB and Whiley for the balance we made our bed with these 3 picks so we have to try and make it work.

But make no mistake - our skill level is shockingly bad. The swans never got out second gear and hardly raised a sweat to beat us by 10. Yes our effort was better than last week, but we have only about 10 players right now would get a regular game with most other teams.

We can win clearances, but we have no damaging mids. We have no forward line to speak of, and our defence is a laughing stock - we have no KP back men. The list has got holes you can drive truck through, so the rebuild will be a long and hard road, and not one we as a club have ever shown any aptitude at.

Other than Cripps I left last night thinking we have a very bleak future ahead.

Was at the game live so hopefully can add something different.

Jones - just putrid. Watched him closely for the 1st half as I had not seen him live before. He has no idea where to run to lead so basically clogs the forward line. Never looked like taking a mark, goes to ground, and then gets up and either walks or jogs off looking for his man. Intensity level of zero. Just embarrassing that our recruiters thought he could play.
Surely KJ is a better bet and might learn something if played up forward.

Tutt - tries really hard and runs to position but panics under pressure and not good in the contest. Either play him up forward or not at all.

Armfield - gives effort but his turnovers and decisions kill you and nothing has changed for 4 years. Time to move on and give others a chance.

Walker - started forward but never looked like it. His glory years appear well and truly past. Has lost his natural athleticism that was the key to his game. This often made up for the fact that he has poor foot skills, not a good decision maker and poor tackler / contested ball winner. Like many on here I think he is a shot duck.

Henderson - tried pretty hard and spent a lot of time talking to his team mates, and is clearly an on field leader. I just think his injuries mean that he doesn't have the speed or endurance to play key position. He can't get separation on his opponent and they close on him easily. I think he has therefore lost confidence in his marking. I don't really know what else they can do other than keep playing him and hope he regains fitness, speed and some form.

Daisy - in a team desperate for skill and polish he actually has some, but doesn't do anywhere near enough. Seagulls too much for mine. Has good intent and makes pretty good decisions when he has the ball, he just needs to get the ball about 10 more times per game to make a difference. He is the cream, but we paid for the cake!

Carrazzo - surely gone at the end of the year. Gets a bit of the ball, but no zip and doesn't hurt with his possessions. Looked to be struggling with the pace of the game a lot of the time. A great servant, but well past his best now. Thanks for the memories.

Menzel - again never looked like making an impact. Doesn't have the pace and fitness to play high half forward, and doesn't have the pace and evasion for the small forward role either. Just hope it's his injury that is restricting him as he gave us nothing.

Yarran - weaknesses are glaring, but he still has more speed, poise and polish then any other player out there. In an ordinary team his weaknesses are always going to be exposed.

Everrit - very laconic but at least he kept battling away. He has skill, size and speed so he stands out against his team mates, but is therefore frustrating. You would love him as your bottom 5 depth player, but we need him to be much more than that. His career has shown he is what he is, and that's not likely to change, but he was still better than most last night.

Rowe & White - good honest battlers who are simply punching out of their weight. They are State league level players. I love that they try and they care, but I hate that our recruiting means that they are the best we have to play FB & CHB.

Bell - my greatest fear is we produce another Armfield or Robbo with this guy. Hasn't seemed to improve on his glaring weaknesses and brain fades over the last 2 years.

Graham - tried hard and doesn't panic. Should get a clear run of 10 games to see if he improves. Need to play him over carrots IMO.


The first thing we have to do is get rid of Tutt, Jones and Armfield and play KJ, BB and Whiley for the balance we made our bed with these 3 picks so we have to try and make it work.

But make no mistake - our skill level is shockingly bad. The swans never got out second gear and hardly raised a sweat to beat us by 10. Yes our effort was better than last week, but we have only about 10 players right now would get a regular game with most other teams.

We can win clearances, but we have no damaging mids. We have no forward line to speak of, and our defence is a laughing stock - we have no KP back men. The list has got holes you can drive truck through, so the rebuild will be a long and hard road, and not one we as a club have ever shown any aptitude at.

Other than Cripps I left last night thinking we have a very bleak future ahead.

Nice post Syd.

good to see that great minds think alike ;) ;) ;) ;D ;D ;D

Nic - the thing that I really struggle with is if it's as glaringly obvious to me (and you) who played at a decent level but am now just a supporter watching from afar, why can't the blokes who run the club football operations full time and live and breath it not see it??

The fact that jones, white and Rowe are 3 of our 5 'talls' last night is a sign of incompetence of the highest order in list management and recruiting. You could bring Jesus Christ in next year to coach and we will still be bottom 4, because we have so many players who are now either past their best (jamo, Judd, carrots, kruz, walker, simmo) or are never going to make it as even decent afl level players. When Judd retires the gold standard for determination, desperation and hunger to win will be lost from the club - and even with the best player of his era we couldn't make it to the top 4. I have been a passionate supporter for over 35 years but am more pessimistic today than I have ever been.

I have watched Sydney belt us up here the last 3 times we have played them, and last night it was like watching the u17's play the u13's. They are playing a different sport to us and we are light years away from being competitive with the good sides when you look at what's coming through our recruiting.

I may be able to respect him as a player (it's getting harder), but as a person I think he is not something I would want anyone to emulate. (Completely agree. It has nothing to do with race either)

[/color]

I really don't see it. Why does everyone dislike him?

Why have the media only decided it's unfair to boo Goodes and Jobe?

Judd gets booed. Yarran got booed by Cats fans last week. Greg Williams got booed every week.

........a portion of the those booers are definitely racist and those that aren't are providing a cover for them. Just disgraceful.

You don't seriously believe that do you? OMFG........

So what you're saying is that there are a number of AFL supporters who go to games and boo aboriginals no matter who they play for??? 'Cos that's exactly what you're implying.....and if you are, that is quite possibly the most ridiculous comment I've ever seen on this site. Period.

You don't seriously believe that do you? OMFG........

So what you're saying is that there are a number of AFL supporters who go to games and boo aboriginals no matter who they play for??? 'Cos that's exactly what you're implying.....and if you are, that is quite possibly the most ridiculous comment I've ever seen on this site. Period.

I think I was pretty clear Brettie. Those who boo give the opportunity for racists to boo, and there are plenty out there. Pretty sure one of our own made a pretty racist comment in the in-game thread. If there's one among 50 or so with us how many in a crowd of 40,000?

Why do you think he is booed?

I think I was pretty clear Brettie. Those who boo give the opportunity for racists to boo, and there are plenty out there. Pretty sure one of our own made a pretty racist comment in the in-game thread. If there's one among 50 or so with us how many in a crowd of 40,000?

Why do you think he is booed?

I think he gets boo'd for the same reason you do carrots...

Hawthorn mate who was there at the Hawks vs Swans game  says he gets booed because he stages for free kicks, is an umpires pet but isnt adverse to the odd sly hit or taking the legs of another player out...choice I know given Hodge/Lewis etc are right up there in terms of sly hits.
Said they also didnt like his work as Australian of the year and reckon he is a whinger.......


Thought our fans treated him ok and his warrior dance didnt bother me too much even though it worked up a few boneheads in the crowd, I'm sure it was in repsone to the Hawks booing even though he denies it....I know he has been on the racist end of some stuff but he hasnt got the same likeable persona of say a Michael Long who seems to be able to get his point across on a range of issues and get everyone onside...
Been a champion of the game and I hope he can win over the crowds and go out a winner off the field too.....bit of a smile everynow and then might help him...

The issue of racism is a blight on humanity. It has existed since time immemorial, and will probably exist forever.

The issue of some dude on a footy field doing a dance is of no consequence at all. 

The issue of racism is a blight on humanity. It has existed since time immemorial, and will probably exist forever.

The issue of some dude on a footy field doing a dance is of no consequence at all.

Nicky Winmar found it hard to cop and showed he was sensitive and I think the elements of the crowd pick up and feed on that, Goodes is similar  to Winmar IMO...you look at Eddie Betts and how he engages the crowd, his big smiling face etc  and its not an issue...

Hawthorn mate who was there at the Hawks vs Swans game  says he gets booed because he stages for free kicks, is an umpires pet but isnt adverse to the odd sly hit or taking the legs of another player out...choice I know given Hodge/Lewis etc are right up there in terms of sly hits.
Said they also didnt like his work as Australian of the year and reckon he is a whinger.......


Thought our fans treated him ok and his warrior dance didnt bother me too much even though it worked up a few boneheads in the crowd, I'm sure it was in repsone to the Hawks booing even though he denies it....I know he has been on the racist end of some stuff but he hasnt got the same likeable persona of say a Michael Long who seems to be able to get his point across on a range of issues and get everyone onside...
Been a champion of the game and I hope he can win over the crowds and go out a winner off the field too.....bit of a smile everynow and then might help him...

Yep, I reckon Goodes' main issue with the crowds is that he comes across as a bit dour, seems  aloof, and doesn't seem to connect with everyday people very well. I saw him once in a roadside servo/coffee shop in Tailem Bend of all places and he didn't seem that keen to say g'day to people. A "serious" type, personality-wise.

I was called a fecking "wog" my entire life at school and was told by teachers to suck it up and move on. When your surname has half the letters of the English alphabet in it with hyphens and other symbols, you are way away from being a genuine Aussie. Even though you were born here. We better be careful we don't allow anti-racism take over. Where native people of this country we live in see us as being foreigners and make us the spot light of all racial issues. Why don't we have a multi-cultural week in footy? 90% of schools have a multi-cultural day at their schools. Where they dress in the old national clothing they were at the folk dances in their countries, and bring in foods from other cultures for all to try and taste. The kids love it and find it very interesting. The AFL wouldn't go for that idea because it would be considered a racist act against the native community of the country we currently live in. Racist divisions works both ways and in every way in this country. I thought we had too many cultures to see racism as an issue in the past. It appears now that if your not indigenous to this country you need to shut up because you will eventually be a racist.

I think I was pretty clear Brettie. Those who boo give the opportunity for racists to boo, and there are plenty out there. Pretty sure one of our own made a pretty racist comment in the in-game thread. If there's one among 50 or so with us how many in a crowd of 40,000?

Why do you think he is booed?

Clearly you weren't, but anyway. So why isn't Rioli booed, Yarran, Betts, Pearce, Hill, Martin, Bennell, Christensen, Varcoe, Garlett, etc., etc., etc???

Every game he plays away from Perth, Ballantyne gets booed - and the last time I checked he wasn't aboriginal, ditto Crowley. Everytime we play Collingwood, Judd gets booed. But when Goodes - the prancing, self-righteous, umpire-appealing tossbag gets booed, suddenly it's because so many of us are racists apparently. Personally, I've never booed him & unless he unduly flattens a Carlton player during a game I'm attending, I never will.....but I reckon it's drawing a very long bow to suggest that because he does get booed, it's giving any racists out there a 'free hit' in regards to simply booing him because of his colour......I simply do not and will not ever agree with that.

Give me a fecking break.

Sorry mate but none of those players get booed like Goodes, in fact no one else really gets booed do they?

If you think Australia isn't racist as a country you need to get out more. It's everywhere. I see it at work, at gym, in here, at the footy. Head up QLD way and people are awful, it's like they're stuck in the past. Don't pretend it doesn't exist, and that may be part of the problem with Goodes, he is booed for daring to point out that it still exists everywhere. I've seen many loudmouths (Aker), stagers (Selwood), goal celebrations (jail cuffs Goddard) and dirty players (Hodge) but none of these blokes get booed. I just don't get it someone point out to my why he gets booed?

You called him a prancing, self righteous tossbag but the AFL has been littered with these types for years, but none of them have been booed, so why Goodes? I see you used the term self righteous, are you annoyed with Goodes for daring to stand up against racism? Is this the main reason Goodes gets booed? For suggesting that racism is well and truly out there?

Yep, I reckon Goodes' main issue with the crowds is that he comes across as a bit dour, seems  aloof, and doesn't seem to connect with everyday people very well. I saw him once in a roadside servo/coffee shop in Tailem Bend of all places and he didn't seem that keen to say g'day to people. A "serious" type, personality-wise.

Maybe he's just not that smart a bloke, it is possible you know. Not enough to deserve getting booed however.

I think Goodes can definitely come across as haughty, and a little self serving as well. He has the eyes and ears of the Australian public, as much as any Indigenous male. He is clearly a man on a mission. I think his motivations are genuine.

As for the on field stuff. he will try and get away with as much as the umps will allow, just like any other player. It's up to the umps to put a stamp on it, not Goodes.

Nic - the thing that I really struggle with is if it's as glaringly obvious to me (and you) who played at a decent level but am now just a supporter watching from afar, why can't the blokes who run the club football operations full time and live and breath it not see it??

The fact that jones, white and Rowe are 3 of our 5 'talls' last night is a sign of incompetence of the highest order in list management and recruiting. You could bring Jesus Christ in next year to coach and we will still be bottom 4, because we have so many players who are now either past their best (jamo, Judd, carrots, kruz, walker, simmo) or are never going to make it as even decent afl level players. When Judd retires the gold standard for determination, desperation and hunger to win will be lost from the club - and even with the best player of his era we couldn't make it to the top 4. I have been a passionate supporter for over 35 years but am more pessimistic today than I have ever been.

I have watched Sydney belt us up here the last 3 times we have played them, and last night it was like watching the u17's play the u13's. They are playing a different sport to us and we are light years away from being competitive with the good sides when you look at what's coming through our recruiting.

Are you sure you are not my long lost brother?, I actually posted a week or so ago that Jesus Christ couldn't coach this team  ::) ::)

I should have added, that I totally agree with your post.

Just a word or three on Goodes.

I listened very carefully every time Goodes got the ball in the first and early part of the second quarter, and could not hear any booing from the Carlton supporters. They treated him with the respect that a great player deserves.

If only Juddy was afforded the same respect when he plays!!

Goodes confirmed that he did not do his war dance because the Carlton fans were booing, in fact quite the opposite.

However, I thought his war dance was as ridiculous as Lindsay Thomas pointing a pretend shot gun in the air, or Dustin Martin, I think it was doing the handcuff sign, although it could have been someone else, I stand to be corrected.

I abhor racism of any kind, there is no place for it in our society.

However, other than kissing a black armband after kicking a goal in order to express their emotions in remembering a deceased family member,  I object to players using the football field either as a political football, or to express any religious or racial symbolism whatsoever.

Do I find anything wrong with Goodes dance? Not at all.

However, it's the old saying of time and place that applies.

Had Goodes stood in front of the Swans cheer squad prior to the first bounce, and performed the dance, just like the Moaris, who, as a TEAM, perform the haka in front of their opponents BEFORE a game, I doubt that anyone but the most abhorrent racist,would have had a problem with it.

However, he waited until he had scored a goal, and performed it in front of the Carlton fans, who, up to that point in time, by Goodes' own admission, had behaved in an exemplary manner.

It was a provocative act, designed to have a go at the Hawthorn supporters who had mercilessly booed him the week before, and saying to those supporters,  and others who had booed him in the past and those likely to boo him in the future, that he would not be intimidated by their booing.

That's fine, Adam, but in my opinion, you picked the wrong time and the wrong place to do it.

Yeah, Indigenous dance in the Indigenous round what was he thinking BN??!!

Carrots, unfortunately, you are like many friends of mine who form an opinion on a subject, and no matter how logical a counter argument that I put forward which expresses a different opinion, they are so blinkered biased, that they can't see the wood for the trees.

In this particular case, Carrots, you read what you wanted to read, not what I actually said.

Where did I say that he should not have performed the dance?

The whole basis of my post was, and I'll italicize it so that there can be no misunderstanding, TIME AND PLACE.

To repeat.

Had Adam done the war dance in front of the Swans cheer squad prior to the start of the game, as his contribution and as an expression of his Aboriginal heritage in this Indigenous round, no one, other than the most hateful racist, would have had an issue with it.

But he didn't do that.

He waited for a quarter and a half and until he had scored a goal, and performed the dance, which ended by him throwing an imaginary spear at the Carlton fans, who, by Adams own admission, had treated him with nothing but respect, up to that point in time.

I don't know how old you are Carrots, but with the greatest respect, please take a tip from an old bloke that has been gained over years of living on this planet.

You can teach, kids and adults lot's of things, which will enable them to make a useful contribution to society.

However the one thing you cannot teach anyone, is common-sense. Unfortunately, common-sense, is not so common.  Our umpires are a prime example of men who know all the rules, yet for the most part, lack common-sense in the way they implement those laws.

As an adult, and an Australian of the year, and as a highly respected member of the Aboriginal Community, Adam Goodes should have had the common-sense to understand, that doing a war dance in front of what were up to that point in time, respectful Carlton supporters,  and ending with throwing an imaginary spear at them, COULD invoke in those supporters a feeling of deliberate provocation on Goodes' part.

It did and they booed him from that moment on.

As I said, Carrots, and it's a point that you obviously have a problem comprehending, TIME AND PLACE.

Carrots, unfortunately, you are like many friends of mine who form an opinion on a subject, and no matter how logical a counter argument that I put forward which expresses a different opinion, they are so blinkered biased, that they can't see the wood for the trees.

That's just it, I don't see your time and place argument as logical. It was Indigenous round, he had just kicked a goal. He wanted o do it as a tribute to the Indigenous community, he may not have kicked another goal. No one seemed to take offence when Murph gave the finger to the Collingwood crowd back in 2012. Was the finger any less offensive?

You have got to be kidding, Carrots. If anything defy's logic, it's your answer.

Comparing Murphy sticking his finger up to Goodes' war dance, absolutely defies logic.

Firstly, you have conveniently forgotten, that  Murphy's finger gesture did cause offence, and Murphy was justifiably fined for his action.

Secondly, you once again defy all logic, by comparing a gesture to fans by Murphy, which has now been accepted by Australians as being obscene, with a war dance performed by Adam Goodes which, unless one is racist, is accepted by Australians as part of the culture of our Indigenous people. How much more ridiculous can you get!!

This war dance was apparently adopted and developed by an under 18 football team of Aboriginals and they performed it BEFORE a game, just like a HAKA, in front of their opponents.

There is absolutely NO RECORD WHATSOEVER, of any of the players in that team, performing the war dance during the game, after having kicked a goal.

They, who are much younger than Goodes, understood the concept of time and place far better than he did.

It is a pity, that like him, you don't understand it either.

To me the only logic defying comment is the one questioning an Indigenous celebratory dance in Indigenous round. Amazing stuff. Why don't we ask the under 18 side what they thought of Goodes doing it after a goal? I'm sure they'd have no complaints.

That would be like asking gays, what they thought of gay marriage. What do you think they would say?

Your illogicality continues to defy logic. ::) ::)

That would be like asking gays, what they thought of gay marriage. What do you think they would say?

Your illogicality continues to defy logic. ::) ::)

You brought them into it, not me. Still can't get over someone questioning the timing of an indigenous celebratory dance in Indigenous round. :S

My father used to tell me that it's far better to lose an argument to a wise person than try and win one with an idiot.

But, I'll give it one more shot in the knowledge that I am dealing with a logically flawed individual.

Firstly, asking the under 18 players if they found Goodes actions offensive is, as i said in my previous post,  like asking Gays if they want Gay marriage. I'll add to that, since you probably couldn't comprehend that analogy, and relay one which even you might understand. It's like asking Joffa if he loves Collingwood, or Carlton supporters if they hate Collingwood.  What do you really think the answer would be??

Secondly, if you had actually comprehended what you were reading in my post, and I'm assuming, possibly incorrectly, that you read all of it, you would have seen that nowhere in that post did I even insinuate that the young Indigenous team would have been offended by Goodes' actions.

The point that I was making that  I would hope would have even been clear to you, was that they performed the dance before the game and NOT during the game itself like Goodes did.

Only an illogical warped mind, could possibly have garnered from that accurate statement, that somehow I was insinuating that the under 18's would have been offended at Goodes actions. In fact, I reckon they would have loved it, and been proud in the knowledge that one of their heroes had emulated their dance.

My point, once again, is all about time and place.

If you can't accept that and believe that the time and place, in front of the Carlton supporters who, and I repeat it again in the forlorn hope that even you might understand what I am saying, had up to that point in time treated him with respect, that Goodes performed his war dance is O.K. because it's indigenous round, then that's how you should have left it, and even though I disagree with you, we could agree to disagree.

However, in no post of yours that replies to mine, or those that have disagreed with your point of view, have you even attempted to  address the issues that I and others have raise in a reasoned manner. That's because you are trying to turn this debate into one of political correctness, and possible racism on the part of those who disagree with your point of view.
 

Time to settle down, children. There simply isn't any good reason to start escalating things. Agree to disagree and move on.

Time to settle down, children. There simply isn't any good reason to start escalating things. Agree to disagree and move on.

Yep, mate, just said that in my post.

It's buried in there somewhere ;) ;) ;D

I just did the war dance in front of my missus hoping my luck might change.

She was VERY unimpressed :-[ :-[ :-X :-X :-\ :-\

There are times I think we should recruit a Kiwi just so he can do the haka before the game. See how they like them apples.

Don't like commenting too much on the Goodes nonsense as it is mostly trivial. But he is just a bit of a knob really. The public does not often warm to overly earnest self important types, so it is hardly surprising his antics provoke such a reaction.

Fine footballer but a bit of a knob. If he wants to make a contribution to society in the form he seems to desire then grandstanding on the footy field is an undignified way to do it.

Changing social norms and customs requires changing minds and attitudes, and carrying on like a bit of a dill after kicking a goal in a 10 goal plus win against the league easybeats is not a sensible way to go about it.

Howsabout Goodes publishes something about new ways to address the dreadful mortality rates among indigenous Australians or that life expectancy for the indigenous NT population is in the low 60s? Discussing actual substantive issues that require complex policy responses will garner respect and change minds. Shrill claims about discrimination when you are a millionaire footy player will not, as the current ferment demonstrates.

My father used to tell me that it's far better to lose an argument to a wise person than try and win one with an idiot.

But, I'll give it one more shot in the knowledge that I am dealing with a logically flawed individual.

I'll add to that, since you probably couldn't comprehend that analogy, and relay one which even you might understand.

The point that I was making that  I would hope would have even been clear to you,

Only an illogical warped mind,

and I repeat it again in the forlorn hope that even you might understand what I am saying,

Hey BN, I tried to show you respect but this post is littered with insults and written/edited after Crashlander said no more. You realise that's a sure sign of someone losing the debate? Indigenous dance in Indigenous round, only an idiot would suggest it's the wrong time and place. ;)

Everyone is comparing the Goodes war cry to the Haka.   Last i saw the haka is used on opposition teams, not supporters. 

Just saying

 

Everyone is comparing the Goodes war cry to the Haka.   Last i saw the haka is used on opposition teams, not supporters. 

Just saying

Agree it was ridiculous. He's lost my respect because I had been giving him the benefit of the doubt of not being a tool but sorry doing that at the 20 Carlton supporters that turned up including a young girl you can see sitting there completely stunned and using the fact it was indigenous round to make it okay, just makes it less so.

War dances are supposed to be at the opposition not at little kids in a crowd.

I think he was stung by the Hawks game but too gutless to show it so waited til this week using the round as an excuse to get something back at an opposition crowd.

This is really tricky

It's a really difficult situation to make a judgement on and it depends a bit on perspective. I reckon it’s one of those times when there are elements of both sides that need to be considered.

I thought Goodes' éxplanation straight after the game was a good one and it pretty much put it to bed for me. What better time for an indigenous celebration than the indigenous round.

On the other hand if you're sitting in the stand, with no background information as to what was occurring... your team is heading for defeat, and the player kicks a goal and charges towards you waving an imaginary spear, you would probably regard it as an aggressive gesture and would respond accordingly.

Fans cannot be mind readers...
The majority wouldn't think.... "Oh that's just Adam expressing his pride in his indigenous heritage"
To them it would seem like he was saying "stick that one up you."

Had he turned around and did it as he headed back towards the centre it probably wouldn't be an issue.

I've no doubt there's an element of racisim in criticism of Goodes.
I'd like to think it's a small one.
I also think there's an element of disrespect towards him in a similar fashion to players who are seen to exploit the rules and are squealers and divers.
and then...
Some folk obviously just don't take to him as an opposition player.
(I can think of a hundred Essendon players I feel/ have felt that way about ;) :D)

I didn't have a huge problem with the dance but I can understand the "time, place and manner of execution" argument.
While it may have showed a pride and respect for his culture it would be hard for those on the receiving end to view it as respectful towards them.

My understanding is that it wasn't a traditional indigenous 'dance' in the manner of the Maori ‘’haka’’ but rather a modern compilation developed for an underage team.
As such a football audience would have little or no knowledge of its significance and take it on face value.

Had he turned around and did it as he headed back towards the centre it probably wouldn't be an issue.

I've no doubt there's an element of racisim in criticism of Goodes.

It's no accident he charged towards the crowd, not towards the goals, not with or towards team-mates, not towards Swans supporters.

It appears to me he is learning to profit from his ethnicity, using his heritage as a money maker and attention seeking, in effect prostituting his heritage! His efforts do nothing for peace, harmony or equality. He is more radical than anything else, he has become almost an embarrassment as Australian of the Year. His efforts are destructive not constructive, he is the antithesis of Rosie Batty! Perhaps he came through an abusive childhood and thinks the fist is the solution to all problems!

And as I have stated before, Caucasians have no monopoly on racism!

This is really tricky

It's a really difficult situation to make a judgement on and it depends a bit on perspective. I reckon it’s one of those times when there are elements of both sides that need to be considered.

I thought Goodes' éxplanation straight after the game was a good one and it pretty much put it to bed for me. What better time for an indigenous celebration than the indigenous round.

On the other hand if you're sitting in the stand, with no background information as to what was occurring... your team is heading for defeat, and the player kicks a goal and charges towards you waving an imaginary spear, you would probably regard it as an aggressive gesture and would respond accordingly.

Fans cannot be mind readers...
The majority wouldn't think.... "Oh that's just Adam expressing his pride in his indigenous heritage"
To them it would seem like he was saying "stick that one up you."

Had he turned around and did it as he headed back towards the centre it probably wouldn't be an issue.

I've no doubt there's an element of racisim in criticism of Goodes.
I'd like to think it's a small one.
I also think there's an element of disrespect towards him in a similar fashion to players who are seen to exploit the rules and are squealers and divers.
and then...
Some folk obviously just don't take to him as an opposition player.
(I can think of a hundred Essendon players I feel/ have felt that way about ;) :D)

I didn't have a huge problem with the dance but I can understand the "time, place and manner of execution" argument.
While it may have showed a pride and respect for his culture it would be hard for those on the receiving end to view it as respectful towards them.

My understanding is that it wasn't a traditional indigenous 'dance' in the manner of the Maori ‘’haka’’ but rather a modern compilation developed for an underage team.
As such a football audience would have little or no knowledge of its significance and take it on face value.

Look at it from a Carlton fans point of view, after giving the bloke no grief all night unlike the Hawks fans.....your team is on the rack being flogged..again... and then you have Goodes in your face waving a pretend spear at you.
Not sure many fans would be that understanding of his war dance in a ceremonial sense and would view that as Goodes giving you the finger, I appreciate its the indigenous round and AG was probably letting off some steam but he is probably lucky that our fans are the non confronting type overall and he didnt receive a real projectile coming back  his way...

What a yawn this whole discussion is.

He did something towards fans that was pretty aggressive and shouldnt be tolerated, as any other act.

The fact that it was indigenous is secondary.

What a yawn this whole discussion is.

He did something towards fans that was pretty aggressive and shouldnt be tolerated, as any other act.

The fact that it was indigenous is secondary.

the afl commission fully endorsed the actions of goodes - more than just a yawn..

I must admit I've had enough of the Goodes dance thing.
It irritated me in that we couldn't stick it up him. We are not going that well and he felt he could disrespect us and get away with it. Fine. So he doesn't respect us. I'm really going to care. I just hope we can remember this and use it towards our beating Sydney next time.
If he wants to lie and say what ever he wants to say, I'm not going to worry about it.
We did not get any justice in the Greg Williams Umpire Saga. We didn't get any justice in the 1973 GF, Etc. These things hurt us and we got nothing. I am not going to worry about some bloke acting like a dill.

I was at the game sitting right above the cheer squad .Whenever Goodes went for the ball they booed him ,so what big deal.He ( Goodes ) thought he would be a smart arse and do a war dance in front  of the 200 odd Carlton supporters ,sitting there .I thought he was a bit childish ,I dare him to do the war dance in front of Carlton  Scum,Filth,Tigers supperters in Melbourne ,   

If Yarran had done the dance towards the Sydney crowd no doubt you'd all be just as scathing?

The Goodes thing has been done to death and I think Lod's post got it mostly right, in that the timing was probably poor on his part but there wasn't anything   wrong with what he did.
I must admit that watching it on TV I was bemused, I didn't know where it had come from and thought WTF was that about, but I didn't find it offensive or confrontational,  just a bit odd.
Having said that,  my nephew is a yobbo and I was looking at his Facebook feed yesterday.
The comments about Goodes by him and his yobbo mates are deeply racist and offensive, so anyone who thinks that racism is a peripheral issue here or that some of the criticism of Goodes isn't racially motivated is kidding them self in my opinion.
Deep down we each know where we stand and this isn't the place to make assumptions,  but unless we admit that racism is a very real part of the attitude for a significant minority of our society we can never do anything to address it.
Just my two bob's worth.

What a yawn this whole discussion is.

He did something towards fans that was pretty aggressive and shouldnt be tolerated, as any other act.

The fact that it was indigenous is secondary.

It's not like he fly kicked someone. Plugger's spearing kicks into the opposition cheer squads were a bit far but I see no problem with gestures and the like. It shows the player isn't 100% on the game mentally though and as a coach I wouldn't be pleased

The Goodes thing has been done to death and I think Lod's post got it mostly right, in that the timing was probably poor on his part but there wasn't anything   wrong with what he did.
I must admit that watching it on TV I was bemused, I didn't know where it had come from and thought WTF was that about, but I didn't find it offensive or confrontational,  just a bit odd.
Having said that,  my nephew is a yobbo and I was looking at his Facebook feed yesterday.
The comments about Goodes by him and his yobbo mates are deeply racist and offensive, so anyone who thinks that racism is a peripheral issue here or that some of the criticism of Goodes isn't racially motivated is kidding them self in my opinion.
Deep down we each know where we stand and this isn't the place to make assumptions,  but unless we admit that racism is a very real part of the attitude for a significant minority of our society we can never do anything to address it.
Just my two bob's worth.

And Goodes has just been trying to highlight that, and for those reasons he gets a hard time. It's like people are saying 'we can accept you for being Indigenous but don't you dare point out that we are racist for you no longer will be accepted nor tolerated'.

Why is that when Goodes says something it is "taking a stand" but if something is said that isn't 100% Goodes' agenda it's "racism"?

Personally I think what he did was ill considered and came across as little more than an attempt to taunt fans.

And Goodes has just been trying to highlight that, and for those reasons he gets a hard time. It's like people are saying 'we can accept you for being Indigenous but don't you dare point out that we are racist for you no longer will be accepted nor tolerated'.

No one is ever completely comfortable having a mirror placed in front of their face PI2C,  none of us are perfect.
For what it's worth I largely agree with your sentiments and admire Goodes as a person,  but in this case I concede that not all of the criticism of his actions are racially motivated.

The fact Goodes directed his dance toward the Carlton fans says to me a fair bit about his intentions.
If he was simply trying to celebrate the Indigenous round, why not celebrate with your own teams fans?
Of all the times on the night that he could have chosen to do something like that, (ie before the game started, or to celebrate the win after the game, surely he wasn't afraid of losing), why choose to do it in the heat of battle and directed at opposition supporters?

If Yarran had done the dance towards the Sydney crowd no doubt you'd all be just as scathing?

Yarran does not have an aggressive bone in his body.    :P

If Yarran had done the dance towards the Sydney crowd no doubt you'd all be just as scathing?

He would not be cut the same slack that Goodes is getting, Ch.7 would smash Yarran and the AFL would get on board as well! ;)

What Nicky Winmar and Michael Long have done for their cause has gone down in history and will always be respected by most. Goode's dance does not compare favorably as witnessed by many of the views on this thread.

The fact Goodes directed his dance toward the Carlton fans says to me a fair bit about his intentions.
If he was simply trying to celebrate the Indigenous round, why not celebrate with your own teams fans?
Of all the times on the night that he could have chosen to do something like that, (ie before the game started, or to celebrate the win after the game, surely he wasn't afraid of losing), why choose to do it in the heat of battle and directed at opposition supporters?

Exactly my perception as well. If it -- his dance -- was so full of pride and respect why not direct it at his own fans... or at least them as well as us. As unpopular a comment as this might be, I cannot help but wonder if Goodes uses his aboriginality at times for, or to disguise, less than noble intentions.

Exactly my perception as well. If it -- his dance -- was so full of pride and respect why not direct it at his own fans... or at least them as well as us. As unpopular a comment as this might be, I cannot help but wonder if Goodes uses his aboriginality at times for, or to disguise, less than noble intentions.

It's a war dance so doing it at his own fans is a waste. That's what a war dance is doing it towards the opposition. Probably should've said he was going to do it if he kicked a goal. That would've been better, would've been expected and better appreciated.

In reality though it's a real "who cares". Not sure why we are wasting so much air and newspaper space on something so minor and trivial.

Yarran does not have an aggressive bone in his body.    :P

Does Goodes?

Yarran does not have an aggressive bone in his body.    :P

I think there is a scum player that will disagree with that.

In reality though it's a real "who cares". Not sure why we are wasting so much air and newspaper space on something so minor and trivial.

Firstly, it incites the crowd, nobody wants it to end badly, and we all want to feel safe at the football!

Secondly, people seeing through the hypocrisy of Goodes, Ch.7 and the AFL. Do they really think this was Haka like, seriously?

Finally, why did Ch.7 imply Carlton fans were being ejected because of some clash that lead to Goodes exhibitionist behavior, like that would be a justification for what happened!

In many countries scoring celebrations are restricted because they incite the crowd. NFL bans or fines players for excessive or exhibitionist celebrations, soccer has greatly wound back the scoring celebrations, particularly in regards to approaching the crowd.

It seems in this regard rugby(League and Union) has the high moral ground, for in rugby the primary form of interaction with the crowd is to thank them for the attendance and support(As opposed to indicating that they are not welcome!) Rugby knows where it's bread gets buttered, and it isn't about to turn on those who pay their wages!

All this episode has proven is that Goodes is a goose, does he really think complaining about being booed is going to make it better, as far as opposition fans go they have him on toast now!

PS: Does Yarran, Smith, Jetta, Walker, Rioli, Franklin, etc., etc., etc.. get booed. If there were so many racists in the AFL crowds why would they discriminate? As an accusation racism just doesn't hold water!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PotXGpd_owg

Remember this from Micky O'Loughlin? It was great and the look on that Eagles supporters face was priceless.  :))

Are we getting a bit too precious about Goodes? Time to move on.

PS: Does Yarran, Smith, Jetta, Walker, Rioli, Franklin, etc., etc., etc.. get booed. If there were so many racists in the AFL crowds why would they discriminate? As an accusation racism just doesn't hold water!

They don't openly criticise those who are racist. Goodes does. He's been the same player throughout his career but has only been booed from the time he has done this.

Hey BN, I tried to show you respect but this post is littered with insults and written/edited after Crashlander said no more. You realise that's a sure sign of someone losing the debate? Indigenous dance in Indigenous round, only an idiot would suggest it's the wrong time and place. ;)

Wrong Carrots, I know that the time shown of my last edit shows it was edited after Crash posted, however as you can see, the actual post appeared before he posted. My edit was only about correcting spelling mistakes.

Once again, for reasons that have become obvious to me, and yes, this will probably be seen by you as an insult,  is that there is a light on but no one is home. You make up your mind on an issue, and no matter how logical anyone else's point may be, you just totally lack the comprehension to understand it, let alone accept it.

Once again you say "Indigenous dance in Indigenous round, only an idiot would suggest it's the wrong time and place."

I understand that I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion with someone bereft of reason, however, I will give it one more shot.

Unless you are a complete racist, no one could possibly have a problem with AG expressing his Aboriginal heritage by doing his "war dance".

The fact that you are unable to comprehend that the time that he did it, after kicking a goal half way through the second quarter, and the place that he did it, in front of the Carlton supporters who, by his own words were totally respectful of him up to that point in time, says to me, that you have no comprehension of the meaning of the word, tact. And, that you have no comprehension of the meaning of the word respect for other peoples feelings and views.

You see Carrots, we all have our views on life. And we all have different views. We are so fortunate to be living in a Democracy that allows us, provided we do not incite people to violence or commit terrorist acts, to express those views freely. 

However, with freedom comes great responsibility, and we all need to be considerate of other peoples feelings when expressing those views.  You may say, that I haven't been considerate of your feelings when expressing mine, and perhaps you are correct, so for that I apologise.

Adam Goodes used the freedom that is available to him to express himself on a day, and in a round of football which celebrates our original Indigenous Australians.

However, he did what I and many people are guilty of doing, and, hopefully, will not do again. He did not consider the feelings of those before whom he was performing his war dance.

I reckon that if the announcer at the ground would have said that when the Swans run out on the ground, Adam and his co Indigenous players will be performing an Aboriginal war dance similar to a Haka to celebrate Indigenous round, and they will perform this in front of the Swans cheer squad, followed by a performance in front of the Carlton cheer squad, as I said, unless you were a died in the wool racist, no one could possibly have objected.

Furthermore, I reckon it would have been great to see them do it in front of the Carlton players, and then, if the Carlton players in Yarran and Walker knew how to do it, they could have returned the compliment.

Now, If, after all that the Carlton cheer squad would have booed Goodes and his fellow Indegenous team mates, I would have lead the charge to condemn them.

But Goodes allowed his ego to take the place of reason.

And the result has been the discussion that has taken up pages in our newspapers and TV programs and has polarized the community.

Goodes had a perfect opportunity to make a statement about his and all Indigenous players heritage, which would have left a magnificent impression on us all, and who knows, perhaps changed the view of some of our more bigoted Australians.

As I said, CarrotTs, time and place. Only an idiot wouldn't understand what that means. ;)

They don't openly criticise those who are racist. Goodes does. He's been the same player throughout his career but has only been booed from the time he has done this.

Not true, the booing started a year or two after his 2006 Brownlow when he got caught clearly staging for a free kick on video.

Then a couple of years back Hawthorn started booing Goodes because he nearly wrecked one of their defenders by sliding into him feet first.

The current booing issue has only recently gained momentum because of the stuff Goodes does. In my opinion Adam Goodes is the beat up merchant. Why he is doing it I cannot know, but perhaps he wants you to think the booing is about race because it is less embarrassing than if it's about staging!

Wrong Carrots, I know that the time shown of my last edit shows it was edited after Crash posted, however as you can see, the actual post appeared before he posted. My edit was only about correcting spelling mistakes.

Absolute lies. Your initial post was one line. I stopped reading here FYI. Save your veiled insults for someone that takes you seriously.

@BN

That idea of the pre game war dance is a great one BN. It should be picked up by the AFL for next year, I'm sure it would be a popular one - as long as it's not directed against the paying customers of course.

Not true, the booing started a year or two after his 2006 Brownlow when he got caught clearly staging for a free kick on video.

Then a couple of years back Hawthorn started booing Goodes because he nearly wrecked one of their defenders by sliding into him feet first.

The current booing issue has only recently gained momentum because of the stuff Goodes does. In my opinion Adam Goodes is the beat up merchant. Why he is doing it I cannot know, but perhaps he wants you to think the booing is about race because it is less embarrassing than if it's about staging!

But other players stage all the time as well and they don't get booed.

I have never said every booee is racist, I have said a portion of them are, as well as a portion of Australians are racist. I think that we can all agree on.

In term of this specific situation, I'm not bothered by the dance itself. What bothers me is the post hoc rationalism that he uses after the fact. "A warrior representing my people." Oh really ? I thought he was an elite, highly paid, highly pampered, sportsperson / entertainer representing a particular club.  

If he'd come out and said that he lost his head a little, gave the CFC fans a bit of a razz up, and they did the same in return, maybe it would have ended there.

As with all men on a mission, he can get ahead of himself sometimes.

Absolute lies. Your initial post was one line. I stopped reading here FYI. Save your veiled insults for someone that takes you seriously.

Oh that. I got rid of that within a minute or two after I posted it, and decided to write a new longer post.

That longer post was still originally posted before Crash's. Open your eyes and look at the time it was posted.

If you don't want to believe that, that's up to you.

You have, lived up to my expectations and, I can tell you, the expectations of others that post on here, Carrots.

Unfortunately, you have what I term a cement brain.  Once you have made up your mind about something, you totally lack the ability to reconsider your opinion, or consider that another view may be correct, or even accept that the person with whom you are debating, actually agrees with one part of your argument, Indigenous dance on Indigenous day, but has a different view as to how and when the dance should have taken place.

I hope for your sake and your future employment prospects, or business prospects, that you manage to rid yourself of that cement brain.

I have seen it before, that even in some very successful people, their success is short term, as the cement brain comes to the fore and effects their decision making and their relationship with their co-workers or employees.

If nothing else, this discussion has confirmed our opinion that it is a total waste of time trying to have a reasoned debate with you.

I won't fall for the same trap in the future.

Oh that.

Yes that.

Firstly, it incites the crowd, nobody wants it to end badly, and we all want to feel safe at the football!

Secondly, people seeing through the hypocrisy of Goodes, Ch.7 and the AFL. Do they really think this was Haka like, seriously?

Finally, why did Ch.7 imply Carlton fans were being ejected because of some clash that lead to Goodes exhibitionist behavior, like that would be a justification for what happened!

In many countries scoring celebrations are restricted because they incite the crowd. NFL bans or fines players for excessive or exhibitionist celebrations, soccer has greatly wound back the scoring celebrations, particularly in regards to approaching the crowd.

It seems in this regard rugby(League and Union) has the high moral ground, for in rugby the primary form of interaction with the crowd is to thank them for the attendance and support(As opposed to indicating that they are not welcome!) Rugby knows where it's bread gets buttered, and it isn't about to turn on those who pay their wages!

All this episode has proven is that Goodes is a goose, does he really think complaining about being booed is going to make it better, as far as opposition fans go they have him on toast now!

PS: Does Yarran, Smith, Jetta, Walker, Rioli, Franklin, etc., etc., etc.. get booed. If there were so many racists in the AFL crowds why would they discriminate? As an accusation racism just doesn't hold water!

Like I said, who cares. Waste of airtime and space. Not at all important. Didn't incite anything and never going to. Gets booed, whoppy doodle doo.

But other players stage all the time as well and they don't get booed.

I have never said every booee is racist, I have said a portion of them are, as well as a portion of Australians are racist. I think that we can all agree on.

Yes they do!

Goodes is no different from any/every other person, he is not special in any way, shape or form!

Good Bloke Goodes
Thought his war dance was good, he would get a good mark for a Maori Haka.
It was not aborigine. No Way.
But he has had injury,
lots of pressure on him,
nearing the end of his career.
hamming up a bit.
I hope enjoyed the stir

ps if he was playing for Carlton I would have thought it highly appropriate

Yes they do!

Goodes is no different from any/every other person, he is not special in any way, shape or form!

He was Australian of the Year, surely that makes him just a little bit different than the rest of us.

ps if he was playing for Carlton I would have thought it highly appropriate

If he played for Carlton we'd worship the ground he walks on, but alas the CFC has no idea how to draft champion footballers at pick 43 in the draft.
We took Kris Massie at 7 and Adam Chatfield at 23 in Goodes' draft.

If he played for Carlton no one would care about him being booed and he would have been fined for taunting fans last week.

If he played for Carlton no one would care about him being booed and he would have been fined for taunting fans last week.

Something tells me this would have been the exact result you indicated.

He wouldn't get the soft umpiring either.

Being O/S I am just catching up with this incident and the debate.

Firstly the argument that it is part of his heritage is false.  Heritage has to go back further than a handful of years to when a few kids made the whole thing up.  I believe such a silly 'jig" was insulting to the cause of Aboriginal Heritage

Secondly the comparison to the Haka is ridiculous as well.  The Haka is done to intimidate the opposition players as a whole - not a few spectators.

Thirdly -and I hesitate to say this for fear of being called racist - but at my first glance on a laptop my first impression reminded me of a chimp charge.  Now please do not accuse me of racism.  Find an appropriate clip and compare before you judge.

So that's three racist comments re Goodes on this board in around 4 days. But racism has nothing to do with it. I rest my case.

So that's three racist comments re Goodes on this board in around 4 days. But racism has nothing to do with it. I rest my case.

That's your interpretation PI2C.....no-one else's (that's 'cos apparently we're all racist according to you)

Interested to know when you'll be submitting your own nomination to the United Nations?

Grandstanding much.......

If he played for Carlton we'd worship the ground he walks on, but alas the CFC has no idea how to draft champion footballers at pick 43 in the draft.
We took Kris Massie at 7 and Adam Chatfield at 23 in Goodes' draft.

Kris Massie played over 100 games... I had a look through the 97 draft and was thinking "he wasn't such a bad pick" if you look at the players taken after him... then I got to Simon Black at pick 31 and stopped!  ;D

That's your interpretation PI2C.....no-one else's (that's 'cos apparently we're all racist according to you)

I agree with PI2C.  When you need to preface a comment by saying that you hesitate to make it for fear of it being called racist, that's a pretty good clue that it shouldn't be said. 

There are some associations or words that have a limited geographical history as racist put downs.  For instance, referring to an indigenous youth as a boy or using blackface in impersonations is not likely to spark outrage here though it would create a firestorm in the US.  But comparing blacks to apes or monkeys is incredibly offensive to every black racial grouping.  It's an easy comparison to make given that the apes and monkeys used in those comparisons have dark fur.  Yet we know the physical comparison is just a convenient cover for an assertion that they are sub-human.  Given that African-Americans and Indigenous Australians have unfortunately suffered a history of being subjugated and stripped of rights, that comparison cuts to the core.  Remember how Andrew Symonds reacted when the Indians called him a monkey or the Sri Lankans reacted when the Australian cricketers told them to stop chattering like monkeys?  Remember when there was a furore when Eddie McGuire suggested they should get Goodes to play King Kong?

Why then, knowing that the comparison was problematic, would anyone compare that dance with a chimpanzee charge?  It didn't further the argument being advanced AT ALL.  Was it being suggested that those who created the dance were copying chimpanzees?  If so, that's nonsense.  The dance is a fusion of moves from the traditional dances of various tribes throughout Australia. 

Strangely enough, the chimp charge and battles in which troupes of chimpanzees go to war against each other are often seen as examples in which chimpanzees behave like humans and there has been debate as to whether this is a natural behaviour or one that is influenced by interactions with humans.  These behaviours are often used by evolutionary biologists and "man-watchers" to consider human interactions.  How odd that this is now been inverted by suggesting indigenous Australians are acting like chimpanzees.

I have no doubt that the comment was racist, although that doesn't mean the poster is racist.  It's a good lesson that if any of us has an inkling that a comment (s)he proposes to post could be seen as racist, then don't do it.

That's your interpretation PI2C.....no-one else's (that's 'cos apparently we're all racist according to you)

Interested to know when you'll be submitting your own nomination to the United Nations?

Grandstanding much.......

Brettie if you want to put words in my mouth you are not worth debating with.

@Mav

Thank you, and I have no doubt said poster knew exactly what he was doing.

Kris Massie played over 100 games... I had a look through the 97 draft and was thinking "he wasn't such a bad pick" if you look at the players taken after him... then I got to Simon Black at pick 31 and stopped!  ;D

Black and Nick Stevens were both taken after Adam Chatfield at 23, along with Goodes of course.
1997, the good old days, back when we didn't rebuild and squealed about the draft being a restraint of trade.
Has anything much changed?

Black and Nick Stevens were both taken after Adam Chatfield at 23, along with Goodes of course.
1997, the good old days, back when we didn't rebuild and squealed about the draft being a restraint of trade.
Has anything much changed?

We don't complain about restraint of trade anymore  :))

Topics such as these always bring out some very strong emotions in folk.
They're issues we have very strong and personal opinions about.

It is an important debate, but it's also a challenging one because we're asked to look at ourselves and examine our own beliefs, values and prejudices.

From that point it is valuable... but there are also some people's beliefs that are set in stone and unchangeable.

People become quite defensive at a suggestion that they might have elements of their makeup that does discriminate on the basis of race, religion etc

Prejudice....like most things, covers a large spectrum of different levels of intolerance.
It can range from extreme violence against a group to a feeling of just being uncomfortable around members of that group, or even a feeling of resentment because of perceived advantage.

While I agree with most of what Mav says, even writing this I feel a need to revise and edit based on how some of it may be misinterpreted.

I think that's a common problem with people discussing issues of discrimination. If you comment you put yourself out there for your prejudices to be exposed and  judged. There's nothing wrong with that. The only danger is folk doing the judging will have their own bias and prejudice.

The issue for us as a group is...
Can we, as a forum, debate such topics without resorting to personal abuse?
Can we keep strong feelings in check and debate the merits of posts rather than attacking the poster?

Black and Nick Stevens were both taken after Adam Chatfield at 23, along with Goodes of course.
1997, the good old days, back when we didn't rebuild and squealed about the draft being a restraint of trade.
Has anything much changed?

I don't acknowledge Stevens (and he ended up with us anyway), Goodes would have been nice... some ordinary footballers selected before both those guys, and Simon Black.

I don't acknowledge Stevens (and he ended up with us anyway), Goodes would have been nice... some ordinary footballers selected before both those guys, and Simon Black.

My guess is that if Goodes was drafted by CFC, he would've lasted 50 games, gone nowhere, and then been delisted or traded. Players are like seeds. Without fertile soil, good climate, care etc. they don't flourish.

My guess is that if Goodes was drafted by CFC, he would've lasted 50 games, gone nowhere, and then been delisted or traded. Players are like seeds. Without fertile soil, good climate, care etc. they don't flourish.

(http://dorkshelf.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads//2014/05/Game-of-Thrones-Season-4-Episode-6-Theon.jpg)

Let the Dark Master's influence wear off. We're not that big a black hole.

My guess is that if Goodes was drafted by CFC, he would've lasted 50 games, gone nowhere, and then been delisted or traded. Players are like seeds. Without fertile soil, good climate, care etc. they don't flourish.

Mould doesn't seem to need much encouragement to grow and I think our list is comparable.

I don't acknowledge Stevens (and he ended up with us anyway), Goodes would have been nice... some ordinary footballers selected before both those guys, and Simon Black.

Stevens was top class,  but at Carlton he was asked to do it all with very little support, Campo,  the last of Ratten and a busted Kouta.
But even without the standouts there were some very good players taken after Massie, Chad Cornes and Tarrant immediately after in fact, Hawthorn managed to snag Vandenberg at 78 who captained them for three seasons.
It's the difference between success and failure,  we've just never been any good at identifying talent and the last draft doesn't seem to have been an exception.

Actually, especially during the Shane O'Sullivan days, our back end spec. picks produced some Ok types ie. Fisher, Hamill.

Where we've really struggled is our front end picks. Most of those have been uninspiring.

I did an experiment with a colleague comparing our drafts from 2000-2013 with St. Kilda's, expecting ours to be far inferior. In fact, given all of the early round picks they had over the early 2000's period, ours isn't that bad in comparison. They had their share of spuds as well.

We then looked at Geelong vs ours and they had a couple of great drafts which built the core of their premiership side. They also had a ton of excellent FS picks, which is where we have had no luck at all, as SOS has been the most notable one, with a truck load of duds, and of course the one guy who would have produced some solid lads ie Sticks, has 3 girls.

Its a good little experiment to do as its so simple to just say our recruiting has been tripe, but its got to be in context.

Honestly, and this will surprise some people, when the draft started, Melbourne were far and away the most successful team early days. In 1987-88 they got some wonderful players (Febey twins in particular).

I agree with quite a few posters here, in that the more picks were get in the top 20-30 the better our strike rate will be as you improve your capacity to get hits in the deeper end of the draft at the top and it gives you a chance to take more risks.

Actually, especially during the Shane O'Sullivan days, our back end spec. picks produced some Ok types ie. Fisher, Hamill.

Where we've really struggled is our front end picks. Most of those have been uninspiring.

I did an experiment with a colleague comparing our drafts from 2000-2013 with St. Kilda's, expecting ours to be far inferior. In fact, given all of the early round picks they had over the early 2000's period, ours isn't that bad in comparison. They had their share of spuds as well.

We then looked at Geelong vs ours and they had a couple of great drafts which built the core of their premiership side. They also had a ton of excellent FS picks, which is where we have had no luck at all, as SOS has been the most notable one, with a truck load of duds, and of course the one guy who would have produced some solid lads ie Sticks, has 3 girls.

Its a good little experiment to do as its so simple to just say our recruiting has been tripe, but its got to be in context.

Honestly, and this will surprise some people, when the draft started, Melbourne were far and away the most successful team early days. In 1987-88 they got some wonderful players (Febey twins in particular).

I agree with quite a few posters here, in that the more picks were get in the top 20-30 the better our strike rate will be as you improve your capacity to get hits in the deeper end of the draft at the top and it gives you a chance to take more risks.

Osullivan was a woeful National draft recruiter and could only draft players with a form 4 and cheque book....
2000 was a draft which set us back bigtime IMO.....0/5

Actually, especially during the Shane O'Sullivan days, our back end spec. picks produced some Ok types ie. Fisher, Hamill.

Fisher and Hamill are a very long time ago, as is Houlihan in the 70's.
Fevola was 38 or so from memory which was a good get, but it could be argued that his talent was outweighed by the trouble he brought to the club.
The only decent player outside the first round still current is Simmo which is a damning indictment on our recruiting.
Throw in first round duds like Lucas, Watson and Bootsma then a succession of high second round flops, Hartlett,  Bower, Hampson,  third rounders in the 30's, Austin, Browne, Campbell, McCarthy,  Edwards etc.
Then of course there's trading 21 for Warnock and 12 for McLean and on current indications 7 for Jaksch will be equally disastrous.
It's a litany of failure and the main reason we are where we are.

Osullivan was a woeful National draft recruiter and could only draft players with a form 4 and cheque book....
2000 was a draft which set us back bigtime IMO.....0/5

O'Sullivan once told someone I know well that we had a gun coming over from SA the following year,  by the name of Scott Freeborn.
True story.

Remember that Fev was taken as a 17 year old.  In that year, every club could take 1 17 year old.  The pick 38 thing is therefore a bit misleading.  As the other clubs had all taken 17 year olds, we could leave Fev until later (or at least that's my recollection of it).  Didn't we pull a swiftly by using our first round pick on an 18 year old?  As Baldrick would say, we had a cunning plan, taking Murray Vance.  But my recollections may well be off.

Gone off topic again  ::)

Stevens was top class,  but at Carlton he was asked to do it all with very little support, Campo,  the last of Ratten and a busted Kouta.
But even without the standouts there were some very good players taken after Massie, Chad Cornes and Tarrant immediately after in fact, Hawthorn managed to snag Vandenberg at 78 who captained them for three seasons.
It's the difference between success and failure,  we've just never been any good at identifying talent and the last draft doesn't seem to have been an exception.

To clarify, i don't acknowledge Stevens because of his recent disgrace.

Yes... Cornes, Tarrant, Scarlett also (FS, but maybe the other standout) that year. But geez, what a lot of spuds!

Looking at the first 50 players in that draft... reckon Massie would would still be a 1st rounder if you re-ranked it (in the 10-20 range).

To clarify, i don't acknowledge Stevens because of his recent disgrace.

Yes... Cornes, Tarrant, Scarlett also (FS, but maybe the other standout) that year. But geez, what a lot of spuds!

Looking at the first 50 players in that draft... reckon Massie would would still be a 1st rounder if you re-ranked it (in the 10-20 range).

Maybe, but getting a decent player at pick 7 shouldn't be seen as anything out of the ordinary.
Picking up guns lower down is, and that's what Carlton has singularly failed to do.

O'Sullivan once told someone I know well that we had a gun coming over from SA the following year,  by the name of Scott Freeborn.
True story.

He had no idea about drafting, his only skill was buying readymade standouts....
His classic line was Trent Sporn might grow into a CHB....we did need a CHB at the time but the odds of the average built wingman Sporn being the answer were about as great as Martians
landing at Optus Oval..

O'Sullivan once told someone I know well that we had a gun coming over from SA the following year,  by the name of Scott Freeborn.
True story.

shane osullivan should be moved on and thanks for his great service to the club...

shane osullivan should be moved on and thanks for his great service to the club...

At any other club he would have been moved on 6 or 7 years ago, but at the CFC the buck only ever stops with the senior coach.
Is Col Kinnear still on the payroll?

Is Col Kinnear still on the payroll?

No, but he has something to do with a new past players coterie group.

No, but he has something to do with a new past players coterie group.

I can live with that, so long as he's doing it gratis.
The gravy train that is the CFC was stopping all stations for way too long.

Goodsey's war cry worked.

http://m.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/carlton-fans-claims-sydney-swans-fans-attacked-them-on-night-of-adam-goodes-war-dance/story-fnpp4dl6-1227381215792