Carlton Supporters Club

Around The Grounds => The Sports Desk => Topic started by: PaulP on June 12, 2017, 08:52:36 am

Title: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on June 12, 2017, 08:52:36 am
Well, not a bad long weekend. Extra day with the family, Carlton win, and Rafa wins his 10th French Open.

Onya Rafa.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: Gointocarlton on June 12, 2017, 11:16:53 am
Well, not a bad long weekend. Extra day with the family, Carlton win, and Rafa wins his 10th French Open.

Onya Rafa.
And Dovi won his 2nd Moto GP race in a row on Duke. Pity Vettel didnt win the Canadian F1 and Porte the Criterium du Dauphine, my weekend would have perfectamundo!
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on September 11, 2017, 09:13:32 am
RAFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !

Sweet 16 baby !!
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: madbluboy on September 11, 2017, 11:24:42 am
RAFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !

Sweet 16 baby !!

Awesome player, Federer won't want to retire while Raf is right on his tail.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on November 27, 2017, 07:26:28 am
https://www.economist.com/blogs/gametheory/2017/09/draws-tennis
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on November 27, 2017, 10:01:35 am
https://www.economist.com/blogs/gametheory/2017/09/draws-tennis

What a crock of arbitrary tweaking.

Federer's greatest mistake was not swapping to a larger racquet much earlier in his career.

He played with a 90 sqi bat up to 2014.

Nadal's Babolat Pure Aero is 100 sqi. He's used it since forever. And why not.

Gives a massive difference in power....

I'd suggest if Federer's reticence to change bats earlier cost him multiple slams....
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: madbluboy on November 27, 2017, 10:35:08 am
Actually the smaller head size gives more accuracy if you're good enough to play with it. As Federer's game slipped he had to play with a more forgiving raquet.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on November 27, 2017, 10:41:12 am
Actually the smaller head size gives more accuracy if you're good enough to play with it. As Federer's game slipped he had to play with a more forgiving raquet.

Of course it does, as does tighter stringing. And?

That wasn't my point.

The sheer difference between a 90 and 100 sqi bat is staggering....

Slipped? Hah.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on November 27, 2017, 10:58:36 am
The waters are also muddied by the fact that the majority of tournaments are played on faster surfaces, which clearly favour Roger. That's not his fault of course, but worth bearing in mind.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on November 27, 2017, 11:07:54 am
The waters are also muddied by the fact that the majority of tournaments are played on faster surfaces, which clearly favour Roger. That's not his fault of course, but worth bearing in mind.

Um, all surfaces are faster than clay!  ;)
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on November 27, 2017, 11:09:18 am
Um, all surfaces are faster than clay!  ;)

I know.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: Thryleon on November 27, 2017, 11:17:39 am
I hate Federer.  Seems like a twat, but even Im not going to dispute how good he has been.

There is no point.

Im hoping that one of either Djokovic or Nadal (preferably both) go past him, and to summarise they probably need him to retire to achieve it, which is a testament to how good he has been over the journey.

All that being said, Tennis is a sport that seems to be forgiving (enough) for older players, as quite a few seem to find a way to play into their late thirties, and always have done really.

The fact that he continues being good into his late 30's is something else entirely.

Just for effect, Ill sign off calling Federer a twat.  Never liked him, and if the rumours are true, he has an air of Tiger Woods about him! ;)
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: LP on November 27, 2017, 11:22:15 am
Reminds me of the debate in golf regarding blade clubs versus cavity backs.

Too much technology goes into all sports now, you are often measuring the player with the deepest pockets rather than the player with the greatest ability. It's the very same debate that has roared in F1 for decades.

Personally, I think such variations should be banned forcing everybody to use the same gear. Sport should be about measuring the abilities of the competitor, not the capability of their supporting staff and scientists.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: madbluboy on November 27, 2017, 11:43:55 am
Of course it does, as does tighter stringing. And?

That wasn't my point.

The sheer difference between a 90 and 100 sqi bat is staggering....

Slipped? Hah.

Do you think he used a smaller frame to handicap himself? Sampras used an 85 pro staff, as did madbluboy in his younger days. Nothing beats when you hit the sweet spot off of those raquets but they are unforgiving.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: LP on November 27, 2017, 11:47:11 am
Do you think he used a smaller frame to handicap himself? Sampras used an 85 pro staff, as did madbluboy in his younger days. Nothing beats when you hit the sweet spot off of those raquets but they are unforgiving.

MBB, I assume tennis is like golf, the better the player that greater the incentive to use equipment with a smaller sweet spot!

I have an associate who used to practice his long iron golf swing on a concrete floor with 5c piece. The idea was to have the club come down on top of the 5c piece swing after swing after swing. If you get it right the 5c piece just hops up and down on the spot barely moving. Obviously you have to use an old club as the sole of the club is destroyed by continually landing on top of metal. But the 5c piece was roughly the size of a blade club sweet spot, get it right and when you get on course you wouldn't even feel the club making contact with the ball.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on November 27, 2017, 12:34:23 pm
Do you think he used a smaller frame to handicap himself? Sampras used an 85 pro staff, as did madbluboy in his younger days. Nothing beats when you hit the sweet spot off of those raquets but they are unforgiving.

Not deliberately, but in an era where everyone is (like AFL) fitter, stronger, faster and in a lot of cases bigger, a small gain in power surely helps.

I think Federer thought he could get away with doing what he did - and in 99.8% of cases - he could.

Look at the change now that he has shelved that silly nothing backhand slice floater, especially off return of serve.

Nadal couldn't touch Fed this year.....

Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: madbluboy on November 27, 2017, 01:00:03 pm
I think it's more the Joker dropping off than the other two turning back the clock.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on June 11, 2018, 03:39:28 am
Hey Rog, look behind you.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: townsendcalling on June 11, 2018, 07:22:18 am
Makes for an interesting discussion.....

Head to Head. Nadal 23 vs Federer 15 yet Roger is the 'GOAT'??
In fact, such is the dominance of Rafa on clay, The Express hasn't bothered to turn up for the last 2 years!!
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on June 11, 2018, 09:28:01 pm
Makes for an interesting discussion.....

Head to Head. Nadal 23 vs Federer 15 yet Roger is the 'GOAT'??
In fact, such is the dominance of Rafa on clay, The Express hasn't bothered to turn up for the last 2 years!!

Quote
Another aspect that has shaped their rivalry has been that of racquet equipment. Nadal has always used a large 100 square inch racquet, however, Federer used a significantly smaller 90 inch racquet in their matches from 2004–2013. This was the size Federer had always played with since a youth, but in an age of increasing power tennis this substantially smaller racquet put him at a disadvantage. During the period in which Nadal enjoyed this advantage in racquet equipment he compiled a 22–10 record. In early 2014 Federer began experimenting with a larger frame and played Nadal in just his second tournament using this larger prototype.[80] Nadal won this match and took his advantage to 23–10. However, since Federer committed to his new 97.5 inch Wilson Prostaff he has flipped their rivalry upside down going an undefeated 5–0 in their matches with equally modern racquet equipment.[81] Many analysts have claimed that Federer's switch to a modern sized racquet and his subsequent dominance, in addition to the vast improvements it has made to his single handed backhand, have proven that he was playing with a handicap for most of their rivalry.

Federer shot himself in the foot imo. His ego wouldn't allow himself to admit for many a year that he couldn't toy with all and sundry....indeed, Nadal toyed with him for a decent stretch.

Anyone who has played tennis at a decent level, knows the power difference between a 90sqi and a 100sqi bat....the latter Rafa has used forever and a day....
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on June 11, 2018, 09:47:00 pm
I've read in a few places that the rule introduced a few years ago to allow players to miss part of the tennis calendar was done at Federer's request. No idea if it's true. Prior to that, players were not permitted to sit out the clay court season, grass season etc.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on June 11, 2018, 09:51:45 pm
And let's not overlook that in most sports, at the elite level, there's more than likely one or more Lance Armstrongs lurking....?

Fed, Novak and Muzza all should be in that conversation too.....
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: Thryleon on June 11, 2018, 09:55:56 pm
I've read in a few places that the rule introduced a few years ago to allow players to miss part of the tennis calendar was done at Federer's request. No idea if it's true. Prior to that, players were not permitted to sit out the clay court season, grass season etc.

I seem to recall he started dodging a few tournaments and focussed only on the grand slams a while back.

And let's not overlook that in most sports, at the elite level, there's more than likely one or more Lance Armstrongs lurking....?

Fed, Novak and Muzza all should be in that conversation too.....

Hard to say.

I'd like to think not, but they seem to improve really quickly every generation.

I would have thought they'd taper off at some point, but it just doesn't seem to happen.

If anyone's on it, it's Federer,  he's defied biology, broken down a little and seems better than ever these days.

Rafa and Novak have been battling for the last two years with various injuries.

Perhaps it's the difference in game style too, but you can't simply throw mud at them for being the best in their code.

Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on June 11, 2018, 10:00:06 pm
Not throwing mud just saying what history has taught us....
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on June 11, 2018, 10:01:46 pm
And let's not overlook that in most sports, at the elite level, there's more than likely one or more Lance Armstrongs lurking....?

Fed, Novak and Muzza all should be in that conversation too.....

https://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/16/tennis/rafa-nadal-tennis-lawsuit/index.html

Nadal stated he was more than happy to make his drug test results public.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: dodge on June 12, 2018, 05:49:04 am
Apparently tennis' testing regime isn't that expected of a sport that has such a high profile and level of money. There are also lots of rumors of silent bans eg a player being injured for a longer period of time.  I Googled drug use in tennis - makes for interesting reading.   This was after being told by the entourage of a player who spent a couple of years on the circuit trying to make it the same thing. 
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on June 12, 2018, 08:09:23 am
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/16/tennis/rafa-nadal-tennis-lawsuit/index.html

Nadal stated he was more than happy to make his drug test results public.

AND THAT PROVES EXACTLY ZIP.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on June 12, 2018, 09:01:22 am
AND THAT PROVES EXACTLY ZIP.

It proves he has nothing to hide. What should he do ? Make a video of every single drug test ?
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on June 12, 2018, 09:08:27 am
Pull your head out of the sand Paul....negative test results mean jack.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on June 12, 2018, 09:15:15 am
Pull your head out of the sand Paul....negative test results mean jack.

The tests are what they are. Nadal has broken down more times than I care to remember, and has missed / pulled out of plenty of tournaments over the journey. His peds must be Home Brand.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on June 12, 2018, 09:51:59 am
The tests are what they are. Nadal has broken down more times than I care to remember, and has missed / pulled out of plenty of tournaments over the journey. His peds must be Home Brand.

Not having a crack at RN any more than RF or the others....
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: LP on June 12, 2018, 10:29:39 am
The tests are what they are. Nadal has broken down more times than I care to remember, and has missed / pulled out of plenty of tournaments over the journey. His peds must be Home Brand.

Firstly, I have no idea about tennis, but I would not be surprised to find any high income professional sport riddled with PED use! The amount of money available is too high, as much as gambling or crime, so why wouldn't there be some organised criminal activities in most professional sports!

I suppose you could argue breaking down could easily be a symptom of PED use, especially if it is due to tears in muscles or connecting tissue. The tell might be how quickly someone recovers from these types of injuries!

The CheatsFC saga exposed the many and varied benefits of PEDs, it wasn't just about being stronger or faster, it was also about being able to recover quicker which allowed a heavier work load than an otherwise unassisted athlete.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on June 10, 2019, 08:52:04 am
2019 French Open

6-3 5-7 6-1 6-1

18 Slams. 12 French titles. Amazing effort anyway you slice it.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: madbluboy on July 09, 2019, 10:27:33 am
Nadal's was questioned why he was on centre court ahead of Women's number 1 Ash Barty.

His response "I've won 18 grand slams" ;D
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on July 09, 2019, 10:57:14 am
Nadal's was questioned why he was on centre court ahead of Women's number 1 Ash Barty.

His response "I've won 18 grand slams" ;D

Fair call by Nadal.

 And I'm no Rafa fan....
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: LP on July 09, 2019, 11:38:40 am
Nadal's was questioned why he was on centre court ahead of Women's number 1 Ash Barty.

His response "I've won 18 grand slams" ;D

Stupid question, I suspect from a gutless journo who is happy to wind up Nadal but give Williams a free pass!

btw., Are we naive to assume it was the Riske camp paying for the tactical analysis on Barty, or perhaps a interested 3rd party?

Quote
The enemy of my enemy is my friend!
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: townsendcalling on July 10, 2019, 12:23:04 am
Stupid question, I suspect from a gutless journo who is happy to wind up Nadal but give Williams a free

No name English journo who received the groans of the room when the question was asked.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: LP on July 10, 2019, 04:20:26 pm
Is there some irony in hearing Jeff Kennett, famous for being the Apple Isle's abusive partner, telling Tennis Australia it's time to dump the selfish brat in Tomic?

Ignoring what's right or wrong, it just seems a bit uncomfortable coming from Jeff!
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: townsendcalling on July 10, 2019, 11:00:31 pm
Is there some irony in hearing Jeff Kennett, famous for being the Apple Isle's abusive partner, telling Tennis Australia it's time to dump the selfish brat in Tomic?

Ignoring what's right or wrong, it just seems a bit uncomfortable coming from Jeff!

I’d be asking Jeff to clarify what he means by ‘Tennis Australia dumping the selfish brat??’  The only association he may have with TA is through Davis Cup representation and that ain’t ever going to happen. He is entitled to have his nationality next to his name, but that’s where it ends. Tomic is well and truly on his own in every sense of the words.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: madbluboy on September 09, 2019, 11:49:42 am
Nadal wins his 4th US open to take his grand slam tally to 19.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on September 09, 2019, 12:15:40 pm
Super player and super effort. Amazing match. Medvedev is a champion in the making. The Greatest Of All Time debate rages on, and at this point, Nadal must be in front. 1 less Slam than Federer, a better head to head record, and when you consider how many matches / tournaments Nadal has missed through injury, and to still be this close to Fed............
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: Thryleon on September 09, 2019, 12:44:57 pm
Nadal wins his 4th US open to take his grand slam tally to 19.

#GOAT

Federer has him by one title but the head to head record says it all.

Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: madbluboy on September 09, 2019, 12:56:32 pm
#GOAT

Federer has him by one title but the head to head record says it all.

Djokovic is actually better than both.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: LP on September 09, 2019, 12:58:21 pm
Djokovic is actually better than both.

Federa, Nadal, Djokovic

I suppose how you rank them depends on what you measure them by, implementation, achievement or attitude?

For me;

Nadal - Like the Great Wall of China, always left standing after opponents collapse exhausted on it's flanks, but it doesn't really do anything! A Survivor but mostly Outlast, not so much Outwit or Outplay

Federer - An Assassin - Dragons or Girl Scouts he'll dispatch them equally without bias, but if the weather is bad he stays home to kill some other day!

Djokovic - The Tsunami - He can sweep and smash all before him, but will give up as soon as he encounters a little hill!
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on September 09, 2019, 01:07:14 pm
Djokovic is actually better than both.

His best tennis is the best tennis that has ever been played by anyone, including Fed and Rafa. And he wins the h2h against both at the moment. So it's a fair point. But injury and form loss have robbed him to a fair degree IMO.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on September 09, 2019, 01:19:50 pm
#GOAT

Federer has him by one title but the head to head record says it all.

Far from it.

H2H highly tainted by 16 matches on clay - 14 to 2 Rafa's way....
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: madbluboy on September 09, 2019, 02:02:17 pm
Clay is a surface too.

You would think after 4 US open titles the "Nadal can only win on clay myth" would be well and truly busted.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on September 09, 2019, 02:41:00 pm
Clay is a surface too.

You would think after 4 US open titles the "Nadal can only win on clay myth" would be well and truly busted.

Who made that claim?

The fact remains that 40% of their H2H matches have been on clay and that must skew the overall H2H.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on September 09, 2019, 04:19:05 pm
Who made that claim?

The fact remains that 40% of their H2H matches have been on clay and that must skew the overall H2H.

That still leaves 24 out of 40 matches that are not on clay. Federer wins the grass h2h 3-1 and the hard court 11-9. The grass is probably too small a sample space to quibble about, but the hardcourt is fairly even, and not even close to being a domination like Nadal on clay. I would suggest that hardcourt better suits Federer than Nadal.

Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: Thryleon on September 09, 2019, 05:20:54 pm
Far from it.

H2H highly tainted by 16 matches on clay - 14 to 2 Rafa's way....

Let me put it to you this way.  Federer won most of his titles before Rafa and the Joker came along.

Djokovic is actually better than both.

I dont disagree.

I waiver a bit, Im just glad they are both better than Federer!
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on September 09, 2019, 07:56:15 pm
You also discount the fact Federer made the mistake of not switching to a bigger racquet head till 2014 - he used a (minute) 90 sqi Pro Staff. Now he's finally on a 97 SQI bat. And since the change, he's dominated Nadal.

Meantime both Rafa and the Djoker use 100sqi bats.

Reckon Roger cost himself 4-8 slams by not switching to a bigger bat sooner - it was the reason why Nadal hit 80% of balls to the Federer backhand.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: madbluboy on September 09, 2019, 08:13:52 pm
He hits it to his back hand because his forehand is unbelievable.

Sampras used an 85 sqi pro staff.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: Thryleon on September 09, 2019, 08:53:58 pm
You also discount the fact Federer made the mistake of not switching to a bigger racquet head till 2014 - he used a (minute) 90 sqi Pro Staff. Now he's finally on a 97 SQI bat. And since the change, he's dominated Nadal.

Meantime both Rafa and the Djoker use 100sqi bats.

Reckon Roger cost himself 4-8 slams by not switching to a bigger bat sooner - it was the reason why Nadal hit 80% of balls to the Federer backhand.

In terms of hitting to players backhand, the dominant player tends to do this strategically to dominate the point.  Sports 101.  Put your opponents onto their weaker side.  That means right footers onto their left and vice versa.

Regarding the bat size, the exact period you talk about (post 2014) have seen both Nadal and joker miss time through injury.  Even andy Murray won a major during that time.

There's no telling how it would have affected him when he was younger.  It took him some time to adjust.  He only made the move when he was no longer able to win.  Perhaps he may have lost a fee he won had he converted earlier.

Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on September 10, 2019, 07:20:31 am
He hits it to his back hand because his forehand is unbelievable.

Sampras used an 85 sqi pro staff.

As did everyone in that era. That is to miss the point. Entirely.

Playing with a 90sqi bat against 100sqi bats is chalk and cheese....

Like today's cricketer's wielding a piece of willow from the 1970s.

Federer thought, wrongly, that he could always win on his terms. Playing his way. That was true with all except Rafa and later the Djoker.

Look at the stats, Nadal does not pepper the Federer backhand at all these days. It's essentially 50/50.

As for the post 2014 era - 5 years now. With the new bat....and with Federer in his late 30s.

9 meetings - 8-1 to federer, the only loss this year at RG on Rafa's beloved clay.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on September 10, 2019, 11:01:00 am
As did everyone in that era. That is to miss the point. Entirely.

Playing with a 90sqi bat against 100sqi bats is chalk and cheese....

.......................


I think Agassi used a bigger racquet than Sampras, and Sampras has a comfortable lead in the h2h.

And Roddick I think also used a bigger racquet than Federer, and that h2h record is extremely one sided.

Federer is still losing matches and missing out on slams even with the new larger design.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: LP on September 10, 2019, 11:05:11 am
I think Agassi used a bigger racquet than Sampras, and Sampras has a comfortable lead in the h2h.

And Roddick I think also used a bigger racquet than Federer, and that h2h record is extremely one sided.

Federer is still losing matches and missing out on slams even with the new larger design.

The effect of racquet size is over stated, just like the effect of club head size in golf.

The benefits of oversize come at a cost, the larger sweetspot means less peak power, so if you are confident in your ability to hit the sweetspot you are far better off with a smaller sweetspot.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on September 10, 2019, 11:07:20 am
The effect of racquet size is over stated, just like the effect of club head size in golf.

The benefits of oversize come at a cost, the larger sweetspot means less peak power, so if you are confident in your ability to hit the sweetspot you are far better off with a smaller sweetspot.

That is BS.  ::) ::)

If you'd tried a bit of the loss of control angle, there's a slight element of truth.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: madbluboy on September 10, 2019, 11:08:39 am
As did everyone in that era. That is to miss the point. Entirely.

Rubbish. Sampras chose to play his whole career with a racquet made in 1984.

Agassi was getting a new racquet every year.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: LP on September 10, 2019, 11:13:39 am
That is BS.  ::) ::)

If you'd tried a bit of the loss of control angle, there's a slight element of truth.

You cannot beat the math or the physics, an opinion means nothing!

If weight is basically static, then the smaller surface area results in a higher peak energy, the principal a bullet works on. If this wasn't true I could fire a Nerf ball through your head at the same speed as a bullet, but I can't as it will just splatter on your head leaving you pudding faced!

Improved control comes from a more uniform larger sweet spot, but it has a lower peak power. So you can hit further off the central zone but still get basically the same power, although it will be less peak power than the central zone of a smaller sweet-spot. The power distribution across the surface is represented by a bell curve, small surfaces have a sharp steep curve, large surfaces have a blunt wide curve.

The top spin effects of big racquets come from the ability to hit in the larger sweet spot, more margin for error under extreme angles of incidence, but it's nothing to do with peak power.

If you want to drive as far as Tiger, or hit as hard as Federer, do not use big racquets or cavity back clubs! But you then have to accept that hitting outside the sweet spot will have a more dramatic effect. Anyone who has used blade clubs knows this finger-breaking effect!
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on September 10, 2019, 11:23:50 am
The effect of racquet size is over stated, just like the effect of club head size in golf.

The benefits of oversize come at a cost, the larger sweetspot means less peak power, so if you are confident in your ability to hit the sweetspot you are far better off with a smaller sweetspot.

Yes, I tend to agree.

From my very brief research, it seems as though Federer spent most of 2014 experimenting with a number of variations on the 97sq model, and started using the 97 as his full time racquet in 2015. If that's correct, we've had 5 completed tennis seasons in that time, which means 20 slams, and Fed has won 3. I don't have the time to paint a more holistic picture (time at No1, other titles etc.) but it would be an interesting exercise.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on September 10, 2019, 11:43:08 am
You cannot beat the math or the physics, an opinion means nothing!

If weight is basically static, then the smaller surface area results in a higher peak energy, the principal a bullet works on. If this wasn't true I could fire a Nerf ball through your head at the same speed as a bullet, but I can't as it will just splatter on your head leaving you pudding faced!

Improved control comes from a more uniform larger sweet spot, but it has a lower peak power. So you can hit further off the central zone but still get basically the same power, although it will be less peak power than the central zone of a smaller sweet-spot. The power distribution across the surface is represented by a bell curve, small surfaces have a sharp steep curve, large surfaces have a blunt wide curve.

The top spin effects of big racquets come from the ability to hit in the larger sweet spot, more margin for error under extreme angles of incidence, but it's nothing to do with peak power.

If you want to drive as far as Tiger, or hit as hard as Federer, do not use big racquets or cavity back clubs! But you then have to accept that hitting outside the sweet spot will have a more dramatic effect. Anyone who has used blade clubs knows this finger-breaking effect!

I'm not talking golf LP. Just what I know.

Clearly you don't!

Quote
Power is directly related to head size; a larger head will provide more power than a smaller head, all other things being equal. A larger head also offers a larger hitting area and sweetspot, which results in more forgiveness on off-center hits. Today’s racquets are offered in head sizes ranging from 93 to 135 square inches, with the most common being 97-100. Racquets at, or close to, 100 square inches offer a solid blend of power and control for many players. Generally speaking, a smaller racquet head appeals to more accomplished players seeking more control, while larger racquets appeal to beginning and intermediate players seeking more power and a larger sweetspot.


https://www.tennis-warehouse.com/LC/SelectingRacquet.html

Top spin? String type, string pattern and tension far more relevant than head size. Fact. Even lighter bats allow a faster, bigger swing!

And of course no Pro is going to use a 110SQI bat or bigger - the power gain is easily offset by the control loss.

Clearly, judging by what the Pros use, 100SQI is the optimum racquet size for the elite and equally clearly that's not optimum for an old bloke.

Sampras, for example, now uses a Babolat Pure Storm Tour, a 98SQI bat, because he needed/wanted more pop!
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on September 10, 2019, 11:47:01 am
Rubbish. Sampras chose to play his whole career with a racquet made in 1984.

Agassi was getting a new racquet every year.

Well yes and no, it was a modified bat - custom handle and extra weight - nearly 400g in total.

And now he uses a 98SQI bat.  ;) For more pop!

And how does this fact at all change the fact that since Federer went to a 98SQI racquet in 2014, the H2H with Nadal is 8 to 1?

What's rubbish?

Enough said.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: madbluboy on September 10, 2019, 12:07:35 pm
Did you play tennis Flyboy?
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on September 10, 2019, 12:13:58 pm
Yes, not at pro level though. Still do!

Use a Volkl, 102SQI bat - with extra weight (added myself) at the top of the head. A thing of beauty - the racquet, not my present skill level.  ;D

https://www.complex.com/sneakers/2012/08/the-evolution-of-the-tennis-racket
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: Thryleon on September 10, 2019, 12:20:13 pm
In other news.

Rafa has won a tournament every 3.4 appearances.

Ditto Djokovic.

Federer has won a tournament every 4.3 appearances.

The lower the number the better.

When push comes to shove, now that Federer isn't as strong as he used to be (statement of fact vs the rest of the competition using the Kyrgios victory as an example) that number will start to increase given he is less likely to win in every subsequent tournament (unless he wins).

Food for thought, Nadal and Djokovic have had to win their grand slams with Federer in the mix at every single tournament except for the few he missed across the journey.  If Federer is the greatest ever, then these two are simply in that conversation because they have had to beat him every step of the way.

Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on September 10, 2019, 12:48:03 pm
In other news, the fact that Rafa plays the full, overly long, clay court season in Europe, and rarely loses, distorts that stat.

Clay court season - arguably 8 tournaments (to appease the Europeans).

Federer gets two bites on grass - Halle and Wimbledon (doesn't play Queens these days).

Next!
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: madbluboy on September 10, 2019, 01:45:06 pm
Grass is for cows.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: LP on September 10, 2019, 03:09:23 pm
Sampras, for example, now uses a Babolat Pure Storm Tour, a 98SQI bat, because he needed/wanted more pop!

Maybe the commission trumps the style, do you think they pay for them?

You debunked yourself, you said Sampras added weight. That quote about power versus head size possibly relates to weight and is a misnomer, it is exactly wrong! I deliberately made the explicit point earlier that weight being unchanged/static, because I know the marketing spin, and that is all it is, marketing bullcrap!

Players "feel" they have more power because they find it easier to hit the larger sweet-spot, not because the larger sweet-spot offers more power!

The physics of tennis rackets, golf clubs, cricket bats, baseballs bats or even kicking a footy remains the same, the rules do not change with the device used!

If you could change the size to increase the power without changing the mass you could take it to the extreme and make an infinite energy perpetual motion machine! You'll be a billionaire overnight! ;D
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on September 10, 2019, 04:04:29 pm
Maybe the commission trumps the style, do you think they pay for them?

You debunked yourself, you said Sampras added weight. That quote about power versus head size possibly relates to weight and is a misnomer, it is exactly wrong! I deliberately made the explicit point earlier that weight being unchanged/static, because I know the marketing spin, and that is all it is, marketing bullcrap!

Players "feel" they have more power because they find it easier to hit the larger sweet-spot, not because the larger sweet-spot offers more power!

The physics of tennis rackets, golf clubs, cricket bats, baseballs bats or even kicking a footy remains the same, the rules do not change with the device used!

If you could change the size to increase the power without changing the mass you could take it to the extreme and make an infinite energy perpetual motion machine! You'll be a billionaire overnight! ;D

You're clutching at straws LP, but keep firing t hem blanks....

So LP's Law of Physics suggests every pro tennis player is working off a placebo effect!

I'll give you one word to ponder LP (by way of analogy) - see how you go...

Trampoline!
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on September 10, 2019, 07:36:29 pm
............

9 meetings - 8-1 to federer, the only loss this year at RG on Rafa's beloved clay.

Since the start of the 2014 season :

Roger v Nadal - 7-2 in Roger's favour.
Novak v Federer is 12-6 in Novak's favour.
Novak-Nadal is 11-4 in Novak's favour

Sheesh - mbb has a point.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: LP on September 10, 2019, 10:01:06 pm
You're clutching at straws LP, but keep firing t hem blanks....

So LP's Law of Physics suggests every pro tennis player is working off a placebo effect!

I'll give you one word to ponder LP (by way of analogy) - see how you go...

Trampoline!

A so ends the argument at an appropriate level.

I thought the laws of physics were everybody's, I didn't realise you, Houdini and L. Ron Hubbard had something in common!

Here is a great primer for the basics if you want to really learn something instead of sprouting marketing spin and old wives tales!

https://www.comsol.com/blogs/the-physics-of-tennis-racket-sweet-spots/
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on September 11, 2019, 06:49:07 am
A so ends the argument at an appropriate level.

I thought the laws of physics were everybody's, I didn't realise you, Houdini and L. Ron Hubbard had something in common!

Here is a great primer for the basics if you want to really learn something instead of sprouting marketing spin and old wives tales!

https://www.comsol.com/blogs/the-physics-of-tennis-racket-sweet-spots/

I'll read it later. First pass - it doesn't support anything you've said thus far.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on September 11, 2019, 07:10:58 am
This is far better LP.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/why-do-larger-racquets-have-more-power.473525/

There's a good summation by a poster called ChicagoJack in the middle of the thread....

I reckon you're related to a poster called LeeD  ;)

And note the link to a test that the once, almost great, Scud did back when....
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: LP on September 11, 2019, 07:58:20 am
This is far better LP.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/why-do-larger-racquets-have-more-power.473525/

There's a good summation by a poster called ChicagoJack in the middle of the thread....

I reckon you're related to a poster called LeeD  ;)

And note the link to a test that the once, almost great, Scud did back when....

Except that many of the claims in the blog thread are completely wrong.

The proponents of bigger heads assume the coefficient of restitution is constant when you change the racquet head size to deliver a bigger amplitude bounce in the same time. But restitution is a time based dynamic effect. A bigger racquet may have more deflection/deformation, but that will happen at a cost, the restitution happens over a longer time interval meaning it's less energetic, and also there is more energy lost in harmonics due to the larger available area. The trampoline effect, the bigger the trampoline, the slower it recovers! ;)

However spin might be helped by bigger racquets, a feature unrelated to power transfer. This is because a lower COR allows the ball to remain in contact with strings longer, which is one of the critical features when trying to imparting spin. Getting the balance right between COR and string tension would be critical to maximise spin.

It's pretty basic really.

You shouldn't trust links and debates on sites connected to commercial enterprises for technical explanations, they nearly always spin he data to suit their product push.

Better to go to a more reputable source of the info; http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/tennis.html
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: flyboy77 on September 11, 2019, 08:56:53 am
There's a big difference between theory and practice!

At a practical level, even for the pros, the sweet spot on the racquet face on a bigger racquet is larger as you have agreed (I think).

Therefore, the chance of losing power (or as a % of loss of power) by hitting outside the sweet spot must be lessened - or conversely, with a smaller bat and sweet spot, the chances of a dud shot is higher i.e. the racquet is less forgiving.

And your physics discounts entirely, it would appear, the effects of leverage - the arm length, the swing arc and indeed, the length of the bat....that is why a tennis player never impacts the ball with his/her racquet at your so called 'best bounce spot'.

A racquet is not "freely suspended by a long length of string or balanced vertically on the end of its handle."

LP. you're not a climate change modeller are you?
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: LP on September 11, 2019, 11:08:41 am
LP. you're not a climate change modeller are you?

No, but I gather you're a skeptic!

Changing the physical dimensions of the player doesn't change the physics of the racquet! ;D

Do you sell tennis equipment for a living?

I'll send you a Energy Polarizer and some special crystals, if you stick them in the handle or every racquet player performance will increase exponentially with every practice session!

The best advice any sporting person can be given, in relation to sports that use bats, racquets, paddles, cues, sticks, whatever. When you find a good one never change it, make it last as long as possible because changing kit just adds another variable and the user is already variable enough!
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: PaulP on December 15, 2020, 06:39:27 pm
Better late than never. With Rafa's win in the 2020 French Open, he and Federer tie at 20 slams apiece. The GOAT is thrown wide open yet again IMO. 13 Majors at one tournament is off the charts.
Title: Re: Rafa Nadal
Post by: Thryleon on December 15, 2020, 09:07:59 pm
More impressive.  Rafa has had to knock off Federer and djokovic along the way to his other 7 majors.