A party or a wake? I know what I want. I know what my brain Chemistry needs! Seratonin control and Dopamine in quantity!
Parlez-vous Carlton? :)
Oh dear. It's gonna be a long year.
Well a positive is Sam Walsh played his best game for the club.
There is already a post game thread.
Well a positive is Sam Walsh played his best game for the club.
If Levi converted, and Harry had more composure, we would have almost won this. We got very little out of our small forwards today.
Well a positive is Sam Walsh played his best game for the club.
I had a different view to be honest. IMHO his first 2 games were better.
Has a team ever gone winless through a full season?
There is already a post game thread.
Must have started at the same instant... sorry, I jumped the gun. Seemed I did the same thing with upgrading my upgrade membership!
Again, as soon as the opposition apply fair-dinkum pressure, we fold. AND, again, as soon as we hit the front we cr@p ourselves... psychologically soft?
Frustrations with the senior coach are well justified. Better make a change soon CFC or the year will be shot.
Must have started at the same instant... sorry, I jumped the gun. Seemed I did the same thing with upgrading my upgrade membership!
Again, as soon as the opposition apply fair-dinkum pressure, we fold. AND, again, as soon as we hit the front we cr@p ourselves... psychologically soft?
Frustrations with the senior coach are well justified. Better make a change soon CFC or the year will be shot.
It's all good....and sorted now.
We set up all three threads early in the week.
As a result the post game thread slips well down the board by the time the game comes around.
We might rethink that.
If Levi converted, and Harry had more composure, we would have almost won this. We got very little out of our small forwards today.
That should be our new name... the Almost Football Club, kings of gutsy losses.
Has a team ever gone winless through a full season?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_winless_seasons#VFL/AFL_teams_with_no_wins_in_a_season
Not for a while it seems.
Heeney aside, their best players consistently are still Parker, Kennedy, Rampe and McVeigh. It's the wise heads at key times that steady. When you compare them to Murphy, Thomas, Ed Curnow and Simpson, then there is a stark contrast.
Mills, Heeney and Jones are their next rung, but they play that system well, players know where to run and what to do, no matter who they bring in. Buddy brings the cream, but the others get the job done.
That should be our new name... the Almost Football Club, kings of gutsy losses.
It's frustrating for all of us, but it's a stepping stone and a hell of a lot better than floggings.
Has a team ever gone winless through a full season?
If it wasn't for meeting two sides going through a horror patch, we would have had a winless year last year.
That should be our new name... the Almost Football Club, kings of gutsy losses.
Yes, although they are much better than beltings.
Mentioned in the pre-game that 'honorable losses' are becoming a little thin.
If we keep having them it will only make coping with the bad loss worse when it occurs.
We need to win.
Yes, although they are much better than beltings.
And that about sums up where this once great club now sits... we're eternally grateful for not being belted.
I guess the Almost Footy Club is a positive, this year I have thought several times during games that we're a chance, didn't have to worry about that last year.
Lost interest before last season. By now in 3 games we should have at least won one. Don't want to hear excuses. I rarely watch the games anymore. Still a member but the club is getting to the point that it may as well fold.
And that about sums up where this once great club now sits... we're eternally grateful for not being belted.
Not eternally grateful - partly relieved and partly realistic.
Bolton should be furious.
Either his players can't follow instructions or he's missing the bleeding obvious.
That should be our new name... the Almost Football Club, kings of gutsy losses.
I wouldn’t call that a gutsy loss.
It was lucky to not be a belting. We were happy with our first quarter and nearly everyone stopped.
Our response to the pressure that finally came was to play safe. Only play along the boundary line, kick long in hope and play safe instead aggressive football.
And that about sums up where this once great club now sits... we're eternally grateful for not being belted.
Yes, I guess so, but we are tracking in the right direction. It feels like we are building.
Yes, I guess so, but we are tracking in the right direction. It feels like we are building.
Agree.
I wouldn’t call that a gutsy loss.
It was lucky to not be a belting. We were happy with our first quarter and nearly everyone stopped.
Our response to the pressure that finally came was to play safe. Only play along the boundary line, kick long in hope and play safe instead aggressive football.
Post that first quarter, McVeigh and others started to get going, that helped with the momentum shift. Buddy was a threat, and they brought more pressure to the ball.
Not sure what to think. Am away on so only caught the last quarter on a phone. But missed my daughter playing auskick on the ground as she got a last minute spot >:(
Same rubbish of a dysfunctional forward line suffering from slow and bombing delivery. Lack of crumbers and the ball is swept out too easily. Cripps plays an enormous game and we lose by 3-5 goals. I guess we will snag a few wins this year but it is all pretty uninspiring. Good game from Mackay who took some fine marks. Shame about the goal kicking.
Ho hum. Round 3 and same old. We look better but the lack of scoring continues.
Has a team ever gone winless through a full season?
1964 was the last.
Mentioned in the pre-game that 'honorable losses' are becoming a little thin.
If we keep having them it will only make coping with the bad loss worse when it occurs.
We need to win.
In all seriousness, Principal LODS, this is one of the things that concerns me greatly. There comes a tipping point, psychologically, where a side just cannot play with the confidence to win and the expectation to win. This is where coaches earn their loot and where I fear BB comes up short (no pun intended).
Competing well but not winning has become the culture of the CFC. A lot of very comfortable coaches at our club.
Saddest thing is it's difficult to see any change, especially with a senior coach who preaches 'not to get to high and not to get to low'. Great leaders manage these normal human conditions and seek to use these things to motivate, encourage and inspire.
Bolton should be furious.
Either his players can't follow instructions or he's missing the bleeding obvious.
Bolton should be sacked.
He doesn’t have a working game plan and is consistently out coached by the opposition.
His tactics don’t work - every week we watch as the opppsition just run through the zone, but he doesn’t switch defensive structure. He has drilled us to play along the boundary to reduce the risk of a turnover, but we just kick long to nobody and the opposition pick it off far too easily. He isn’t getting us to run and carry through the middle - at least not enough. When we did it in the first quarter we were competitive.
Too many players look lost on the ground and any lack passion.
Liam Jones take a bow!! The perpetual whinger only got 2 and one was a gift. He’s coming of age, and with Weitering more composed, those 2 places are looking far more settled.
Let’s hope nobody is falling further in love this week
Just dont work hard enough on the spread, too fumbly at key moments and don’t take our chances - we’re just not as professional as Sydney.
Carried Gibbons, Polson today
Setterfield isn’t giving Cripps a chop out. Kennedy May be better.
Too many mistakes/execution errors from Dow, McKay, Simpson and to a lesser extent Thomas
Plowman, Newman nothing games
E Curnow Jekyll and Hyde
Desperate for speed of Cunningham, Pickett, Docherty, Williamson. Even Lang
Liam Jones take a bow!! .............
Agree.
Unfortunately warriors come to an end, and for Simmo it’s as far away as Williamson’s return.
Sinclair was very good as well today, really was the dominant big man and we had nobody who could get over him. That makes a big difference in the new format.
The stats were quite similar, but the Swans had a lot more handballs, that run and carry and linking needs trust and confidence, I don't know we have that in our team yet.
It's frustrating for all of us, but it's a stepping stone and a hell of a lot better than floggings.
We've been pushing good sides hard for a few years. We don't win though. This is a game that should be won at home given the side we have now.
Going to do my best Terry Wallace impersonation. If anyone says "Honorable loss" i'll spew up!!!
Bolton should be sacked.
He doesn’t have a working game plan and is consistently out coached by the opposition.
His tactics don’t work - every week we watch as the opppsition just run through the zone, but he doesn’t switch defensive structure. He has drilled us to play along the boundary to reduce the risk of a turnover, but we just kick long to nobody and the opposition pick it off far too easily. He isn’t getting us to run and carry through the middle - at least not enough. When we did it in the first quarter we were competitive.
Too many players look lost on the ground and any lack passion.
Bolton got flogged. Had maybe 2 errant disposals all day....
It’s telling to me that the ‘positives’ we identify are almost always about individual players - not about the way we play as a team. I suspect Sydney talk way more about the latter.
Liam Jones take a bow!! The perpetual whinger only got 2 and one was a gift. He’s coming of age, and with Weitering more composed, those 2 places are looking far more settled.
Agree, its a tough gug playing against Buddy and his posse of green magots. Has there ever been a bigger whinging kent to play the game?
We've been pushing good sides hard for a few years. We don't win though. This is a game that should be won at home given the side we have now.
Going to do my best Terry Wallace impersonation. If anyone says "Honorable loss" i'll spew up!!!
The only thing we were pushing last season was the proverbial up hill. I agree winning is a mindset, a habit and a skill. But we're getting closer, and for now, that will have to do. No amount of whinging and whining and scapegoating will change that.
Agree.
I'd like to have your optimism at present, and believe I am by nature a very optimistic person -- put my money where my mouth is and upgraded my upgrade membership, such was the hope.
What worries me deeply, PP, which I've said elsewhere, is that it is now an ingrained habit (losing) at our club. Breaking through that will require something dramatic (and breaking through means winning games against good sides in good form apply good pressure). Yes, we might win a game or two and feel terrific but the bottom line is that when we meet any reasonable side (or better) that applies pressure we fold... or in modern speak, we go to our default position - chasing clacker. We give up.
The BB message, for whatever reason, is not getting through. How long do we want more of the same? Rest of the year? This year and next?
It’s telling to me that the ‘positives’ we identify are almost always about individual players - not about the way we play as a team. I suspect Sydney talk way more about the latter.
Yes, I agree. This is where we have to get to IMHO.
Heeney aside, their best players consistently are still Parker, Kennedy, Rampe and McVeigh. It's the wise heads at key times that steady. When you compare them to Murphy, Thomas, Ed Curnow and Simpson, then there is a stark contrast.
Mills, Heeney and Jones are their next rung, but they play that system well, players know where to run and what to do, no matter who they bring in. Buddy brings the cream, but the others get the job done.
This is a good summary spf.
I'd add, Swans ability to possess the ball and adapt the tempo to advantage, and it's a done deal.
The cream on top for mine is, despite maintaining possession, the Swans also dominated in tackling and defensive pressure.
We haven't got the small forward role working just yet. We also lack speed out of defense and between the arcs.
That all said, our talented youngsters blundered (as did a limited older tall) a couple of sitters early. Had this gone the other way, the momentum and psychological attack may have seen a different outcome. Small errors with big impact = small improvement results in getting over the line. Not the end of the world imo, but clear areas to improve and instruction to our scouts.
looking at the stats, simply too many passengers again....
Dow, Polson, Gibbons, Setters, LoB - simply not enough.
I will be furious if Kennedy is not injured? He should have played.
Did the Gov get injured?
I'd like to have your optimism at present, and believe I am by nature a very optimistic person -- put my money where my mouth is and upgraded my upgrade membership, such was the hope.
What worries me deeply, PP, which I've said elsewhere, is that it is now an ingrained habit (losing) at our club. Breaking through that will require something dramatic (and breaking through means winning games against good sides in good form apply good pressure). Yes, we might win a game or two and feel terrific but the bottom line is that when we meet any reasonable side (or better) that applies pressure we fold... or in modern speak, we go to our default position - chasing clacker. We give up.
The BB message, for whatever reason, is not getting through. How long do we want more of the same? Rest of the year? This year and next?
I like Bolton, and I want him to succeed, but unlike the love of my life Ratten, I have no allegiance to Bolton one way or the other. I simply don't believe after all our recent experiences, that sacking the coach will solve anything.
I'd be playing Setters, Dow, LOB in the 2s....
They need to learn to dominate a game - not be part time side acts....
Bolton must go if we're winless by the bye... the abject lack of a game plan - or a Plan B - is stark.
Whose idea was it to play Ed as a defensive forward/midfielder? That was never going to work :)
One of the main things I took away is that Simmo is a liability in defence; he is often out of position and is too easily out bodied by taller, heavier opponents. I think that he needs to play on the wing or with the NBs.
I'd be playing Setters, Dow, LOB in the 2s....
They need to learn to dominate a game - not be part time side acts....
Bolton must go if we're winless by the bye... the abject lack of a game plan - or a Plan B - is stark.
Who comes in though?
I like Bolton, and I want him to succeed, but unlike the love of my life Ratten, I have no allegiance to Bolton one way or the other. I simply don't believe after all our recent experiences, that sacking the coach will solve anything.
I like Bolton too. Seems like a terrific, chirpy, upbeat kinda fella.
Although it might sound pedantic and just semantics but for me it's not about simply sacking BB. It's about understanding that we must now put someone in charge of this group who has been to the mountain top, someone who has had experience at molding a young group into a continual top 4 side. It's about entrusting this group to experience, not experiment.
BB was probably just the right bloke to keep the fans patient during a rebuild but now we need experience at the helm, otherwise a wonderful opportunity may just slide away.
I like Bolton, and I want him to succeed, but unlike the love of my life Ratten, I have no allegiance to Bolton one way or the other. I simply don't believe after all our recent experiences, that sacking the coach will solve anything.
That is pretty much how I feel. Given everything that has happened, we simply have to stay the course.
Whose idea was it to play Ed as a defensive forward/midfielder? That was never going to work :)
One of the main things I took away is that Simmo is a liability in defence; he is often out of position and is too easily out bodied by taller, heavier opponents. I think that he needs to play on the wing or with the NBs.
MBB and I have been saying this for 2 seasons. A true Navy Blue warrior, who will forever have my undying love and respect, but honestly, the jig is up.
I like Bolton too. Seems like a terrific, chirpy, upbeat kinda fella.
Although it might sound pedantic and just semantics but for me it's not about simply sacking BB. It's about understanding that we must now put someone in charge of this group who has been to the mountain top, someone who has had experience at molding a young group into a continual top 4 side. It's about entrusting this group to experience, not experiment.
BB was probably just the right bloke to keep the fans patient during a rebuild but now we need experience at the helm, otherwise a wonderful opportunity may just slide away.
You reckon the Judge still has Mick's mobile on the Rolodex ?
I think the thing that concerns me is that I find it very difficult to look at individual players and say...
"Yep, Carlton's been good to him...he's really developed in his time here."
We're carried to a large extent on the broad shoulders of Cripps.
We're investing a lot of faith in young Walsh who copped a fair bit of attention today.
How will he go in a long season.
It's shaping as every bit as arduous as Murphy's first season.
My match summary:
we kicked 5 goals in a good first quarter where we ran in numbers, used the corridor and applied pressure.
Then we stopped all that and kicked five more goals across the next three quarters. Two of which were in the last minute of the third term.
Out coached by Longmire.
You reckon the Judge still has Mick's mobile on the Rolodex ?
Since Parkin, the only bloke who developed any semblance of cohesion with our group was your boy, Ratts.
I like Bolton, and I want him to succeed, but unlike the love of my life Ratten, I have no allegiance to Bolton one way or the other. I simply don't believe after all our recent experiences, that sacking the coach will solve anything.
It'll help alot. He is getting nothing out of a side that he should be. 3 wins in 35 games, Suggest it just keeps going the way it is?
If we get beaten by the Gold Coast next week he can roll himself out the door. Side is better than that.
We have won the last two against the Gold Coast in Qld.
Their running backs were what killed us. Every time one of McVeigh, Lloyd, Jones etc got the ball, they chewed up territory, either directly or through setting up a chain of a million possessions. Pretty much zero pressure on them from us. That was the difference, IMO. Our midfield and backs were good, as groups, but our forwards let us down defensively.
It'll help alot. He is getting nothing out of a side that he should be. 3 wins in 35 games, Suggest it just keeps going the way it is?
If we get beaten by the Gold Coast next week he can roll himself out the door. Side is better than that.
We have won the last two against the Gold Coast in Qld.
I agree, but who gets the gig if Bolton goes?
Can’t see any of the assistant coaches doing much better.
We need a coaching turnover at the end of the year.
Since Parkin, the only bloke who developed any semblance of cohesion with our group was your boy, Ratts.
Yes, but he wasn't experienced and hadn't "been to the mountain top."
How long must we tolerate this? We're looking at 0 / 4, will not play finals and probably finish bottom two. That hurts for a kid like me who grew up and was accustomed to success.
It'll help alot. He is getting nothing out of a side that he should be. 3 wins in 35 games, Suggest it just keeps going the way it is?
If we get beaten by the Gold Coast next week he can roll himself out the door. Side is better than that.
We have won the last two against the Gold Coast in Qld.
We've had about 4 different sides in the last few seasons. Additionally, what rating system you're using ? Amount of No1 picks, "potential" ? Our team is very unproven and raw, and any claims that we have a great side must be verifiable.
Didn't help losing Phillips per game but as relief ruck Casboult showed he's not up to either role. Once again, our rucks were dead set flogged. Opposition rucks look at us and think '3 votes! " Kerr should be the preferred relief ruck/forward. Casboult is a state league player only.
Not the only part of the side that's non-functional, but our forwards were rank today. Didn't run to create space/options for the ball carrier, didn't hold marks, kicked poorly for goal and the smaller blokes were putrid - zero pressure on the half backs exiting D50. I'm looking at you Poison and Gibbons in particular.
People were very divided on the value of state league players and Gibbons is not setting a positive case ATM. He talked about wanting it bad. Well you're here now, time to show it.
Well out of the next four we can probably win three. I think the Doggies contested ball game will be tough, but the Suns, Hawks and North are gettable.
Well out of the next four we can probably win three. I think the Doggies contested ball game will be tough, but the Suns, Hawks and North are gettable.
Hate to say it, but the Fluffy Ducks were very gettable today. And we blew it. In fact the Tiggers were gettable too, and we blew that.
I know it sounds really negative and defeatist on my part to say these things, but they're the cold, hard facts. I really believe our blokes are better than they're showing at present.
I agree, but who gets the gig if Bolton goes?
Can’t see any of the assistant coaches doing much better.
We need a coaching turnover at the end of the year.
David Teague. You remember the brilliant work with the Northern Bullants where he turned an average side into dual Grand Finalists. He was very thorough and well respected. He is the one and only reason Mitch McGovern came to Carlton.
Probably said the same thing in Pagan's days. His assistant was Ratten. He got the job and did well.
Didn't help losing Phillips per game but as relief ruck Casboult showed he's not up to either role. Once again, our rucks were dead set flogged. Opposition rucks look at us and think '3 votes! " Kerr should be the preferred relief ruck/forward. Casboult is a state league player only.
Not the only part of the side that's non-functional, but our forwards were rank today. Didn't run to create space/options for the ball carrier, didn't hold marks, kicked poorly for goal and the smaller blokes were putrid - zero pressure on the half backs exiting D50. I'm looking at you Poison and Gibbons in particular.
People were very divided on the value of state league players and Gibbons is not setting a positive case ATM. He talked about wanting it bad. Well you're here now, time to show it.
Thought Casboult was good today and a mile from our worst and at least he has some intensity at the ball, crashes packs and works hard up and down the ground.
Gibbons and Polson on the other hand …….
Didn't help losing Phillips per game but as relief ruck Casboult showed he's not up to either role. Once again, our rucks were dead set flogged. Opposition rucks look at us and think '3 votes! " Kerr should be the preferred relief ruck/forward. Casboult is a state league player only.
Not the only part of the side that's non-functional, but our forwards were rank today. Didn't run to create space/options for the ball carrier, didn't hold marks, kicked poorly for goal and the smaller blokes were putrid - zero pressure on the half backs exiting D50. I'm looking at you Poison and Gibbons in particular.
People were very divided on the value of state league players and Gibbons is not setting a positive case ATM. He talked about wanting it bad. Well you're here now, time to show it.
That first part we won the centre clearances 16-11 and the overall clearances 44-37.
Just had a big laugh... looked at the AFL website and the headline for our game is:
'Swans Edge Brave Blues...' and there you have it. We are the honourable loss kings... soon to be crowned at an official function at Princes Park... the home of honourable losses.
Didn't help losing Phillips per game but as relief ruck Casboult showed he's not up to either role. Once again, our rucks were dead set flogged. Opposition rucks look at us and think '3 votes! " Kerr should be the preferred relief ruck/forward. Casboult is a state league player only.
Not the only part of the side that's non-functional, but our forwards were rank today. Didn't run to create space/options for the ball carrier, didn't hold marks, kicked poorly for goal and the smaller blokes were putrid - zero pressure on the half backs exiting D50. I'm looking at you Poison and Gibbons in particular.
People were very divided on the value of state league players and Gibbons is not setting a positive case ATM. He talked about wanting it bad. Well you're here now, time to show it.
I'm a a fan of state leaguers but happy to admit that Gibbons needs a spell in the NB's but I would also point out he is a midfielder by trade and we are trying to play him in a different role and that
isnt working for a variety of reasons.
David Teague. You remember the brilliant work with the Northern Bullants where he turned an average side into dual Grand Finalists. He was very thorough and well respected. He is the one and only reason Mitch McGovern came to Carlton.
Probably said the same thing in Pagan's days. His assistant was Ratten. He got the job and did well.
Yep.
Yep.
presumably our board would be reminding BB what the pass mark is this year - suspect we expect 6-7 wins with clear evidence of progress.
BB will need to start adjusting the old MM formula of booting it down the line b/c we'll struggle to register a win with that game plan.
I'm a a fan of state leaguers but happy to admit that Gibbons needs a spell in the NB's but I would also point out he is a midfielder by trade and we are trying to play him in a different role and that
isnt working for a variety of reasons.
The problem is that we don’t have a good enough player development system that makes afl players out of vfl players. The vfl success stories mostly happen at clubs that are already successful and produce good players. We do not.
And this from the Hun:
Patrick Dangerfield had one piece of advice regarding the new 6-6-6 rule at this year’s AFL Players’ Association season launch.
“Put money on ‘Crippa’ for the Brownlow,” Dangerfield said.
It might’ve been a hot tip. After Round 3 Cripps might well have polled in three losing teams with Saturday’s performance in a 19-point loss to Sydney his finest.
Rarely has a football team been built so exclusively around one player. Cripps isn’t just the heartbeat at Carlton, he’s the entire aorta and the lungs as well.
The problem for Cripps is that’s where the superstar talent ends. He was helpless to stop Sydney squashing a wasteful Carlton at Marvel Stadium.
Cripps won eight of his 13 clearances bursting out of the centre. The next best was third-gamer Sam Walsh with three centre clearances.
Cripps laid eight tackles, three more than every other teammate. Boy, how he must yearn for some midfield mates.
Yeah, Cripps and daylight really. Walsh is showing a bit, but we still lack that support. Setterfield it should be remembered is playing his 4th game.
presumably our board would be reminding BB what the pass mark is this year - suspect we expect 6-7 wins with clear evidence of progress.
BB will need to start adjusting the old MM formula of booting it down the line b/c we'll struggle to register a win with that game plan.
None so far, which is especially disappointing considering we're putting a better side on the paddock than this time last year, or the year before... etc.
That sounds like a normal day at the office for Cripps. How very fortunate we are to have him.
I've been a Teague fan but.....
Teague's our forward coach
Our forward line is a shambles.
You would have to be an insider to know what's actually going on there ….but Teague has enough on his plate to get that functional before we hand over a senior gig to him.
BB will need to start adjusting the old MM formula of booting it down the line b/c we'll struggle to register a win with that game plan.
The tactics of a risk averse coach. We’re losing anyway, may as well back your players to play some attacking footy by moving through the corridor. Sure, with our skills we’re going to turn it over a fair bit. But when we do it we’re competitive. When we go long down the boundary, we just stop and look uninterested.
I've been a Teague fan but.....
Teague's our forward coach
Our forward line is a shambles.
.....................
Was thinking the same, and was about to post. The idea that David Teague is the new messiah did at least give me a chuckle.
Was thinking the same, and was about to post. The idea that David Teague is the new messiah did at least give me a chuckle.
[/b][/u]
Wo, wo, wo... taking a little creative licence there PP. I don't think anyone has suggested DT as a Messiah... nuh. I don't think it's necessary to have a dig at folks for expressing heartfelt concerns and beliefs. I understand that you're willing and wanting to maintain the course -- and respect that -- but there are some of us who believe that things are not quite as rosy and are expressing that.
We lose Cripps we lose 20 000 members and we'll be in Tasmania within 12 months.
I've been a Teague fan but.....
Teague's our forward coach
Our forward line is a shambles.
You would have to be an insider to know what's actually going on there ….but Teague has enough on his plate to get that functional before we hand over a senior gig to him.
I think the support for DT comes from how well he did with the NBs. As for our forward line, well the success of that depends on so much from up the field and what the senior coach is instructing him to do.
[/b][/u]
Wo, wo, wo... taking a little creative licence there PP. I don't think anyone has suggested DT as a Messiah... nuh. I don't think it's necessary to have a dig at folks for expressing heartfelt concerns and beliefs. I understand that you're willing and wanting to maintain the course -- and respect that -- but there are some of us who believe that things are not quite as rosy and are expressing that.
The club is at a significant point in its history now - we're about to find out whether this epic rebuild, unprecedented in AFL/VFL history (so far as I can tell), is going to be an epic fail, or an epic success. Of course, no one knows. It's not really about things not being rosy, but if changes have to be made, they can't just be knee-jerk. They must be considered and correct.
You and I have both been around here for years, and we know the pattern. Losses mount, supporters start baying for blood, the simple solution is to sack the coach. The losses continue, so we sack that coach and get a new one. Rinse and repeat. Time to change it up. Stick fat this time around and see how it goes.
If we can't be straight with each other, there's no point being here. You can be as blunt with me as you like. I like you and respect you.
Agree 100%. I, also, don't want knee-jerk stuff (as MM was). But into year 4 and things look as grim as ever calls for conversations, hard conversations re are we headed in the right direction. We've been sticking fat, more impressively so than for any time I can remember! Despite our poor showing in BBs first two years, we knew the size of the change and the resultant hurt, but we signed up, turned up and stood by the club.
There are cracks in BBs coaching which are apparent and I am certainly not advocating a coup like in previous years/decades... just discussion. And that discussion should say to BB, 'We've supported you all the way, regardless, but now we don't want cliche's and cutesy phrases. Now we want to see that you know what you're doing, and that means winning games. If you can't coach us to winning games, then we have to look elsewhere.'
was Murph injured - should he have played at all?
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/video/2019-04-06/r3-bolton-postmatch
Agree 100%. I, also, don't want knee-jerk stuff (as MM was). But into year 4 and things look as grim as ever calls for conversations, hard conversations re are we headed in the right direction. We've been sticking fat, more impressively so than for any time I can remember! Despite our poor showing in BBs first two years, we knew the size of the change and the resultant hurt, but we signed up, turned up and stood by the club.
There are cracks in BBs coaching which are apparent and I am certainly not advocating a coup like in previous years/decades... just discussion. And that discussion should say to BB, 'We've supported you all the way, regardless, but now we don't want cliche's and cutesy phrases. Now we want to see that you know what you're doing, and that means winning games. If you can't coach us to winning games, then we have to look elsewhere.'
I realise it's scandalous, and you and others can ridicule me to your heart's content, but the last 3 seasons were just marking time. Assessing wins / losses, coaching etc. is futile. We were fielding teams under false pretences, and I would not pay any attention to what happened before this season. IMO, Bolton's clock didn't start ticking in 2016. It starts now.
Does Wallsy sit in the coaches box? Just sayin...
I always thought SOS would've been a good coach. ???
I realise it's scandalous, and you and others can ridicule me to your heart's content, but the last 3 seasons were just marking time. Assessing wins / losses, coaching etc. is futile. We were fielding teams under false pretences, and I would not pay any attention to what happened before this season. IMO, Bolton's clock didn't start ticking in 2016. It starts now.
I think Bolts is lucky the Judge doesn't make rash decisions!
I think the support for DT comes from how well he did with the NBs. As for our forward line, well the success of that depends on so much from up the field and what the senior coach is instructing him to do.
Yep,
As I said you would have to be an insider to know just what latitude Teague has to work the forward structures.
But they're not working well at the moment.
I realise it's scandalous, and you and others can ridicule me to your heart's content, but the last 3 seasons were just marking time. Assessing wins / losses, coaching etc. is futile. We were fielding teams under false pretences, and I would not pay any attention to what happened before this season. IMO, Bolton's clock didn't start ticking in 2016. It starts now.
x2
I may be mistaken but I think I heard Crippa say on the footy show the other that since he has been at the club, 100 list changes have occured. Thats unheard of. He also said only now he feels that they have a stable group and they can form relationships and grow together with out fear that mates will be delisted on masse.
I think Bolts is lucky the Judge doesn't make rash decisions!
Yes, more the slow burn type I think. If it was Big Jack, Bolton would not have lasted 3 games, let alone 3 seasons.
I've been a Teague fan but.....
Teague's our forward coach
Our forward line is a shambles.
You would have to be an insider to know what's actually going on there ….but Teague has enough on his plate to get that functional before we hand over a senior gig to him.
We couldnt buy a goal in the second. Then lo and behold, fwd started running towards the ball carrier and we marked and goaled. Leading, what a novel concept.
Question and answer time at my beloved club.
Truth, put everything on the table warts and all.
What's pissing people off, what does the TEAM need to pull off a win?
Come on, round table meeting, everyone equal..call it now!
I didn’t read all your pre-game chats but honestly if you’re an astute follower of the AFL, you could not possibly have tipped us to win after seeing the teams on paper. The game played out pretty much how I thought it would. The Swans team has class, strength and composure on every line, and half our team looked like a pack of schoolboys (and played like them) in comparison. Gibbons isn’t a small forward, Polson isn’t an AFL player and O’Brien plays like he’s in the U17s. Name one Swan player like that? We lost at match committee, we needed a physically stronger team. Kennedy and Silvagni should have been in. We don’t need ‘small forwards’, we need smart and composed forwards. And we need players to learn how to deliver to our forwards’ advantage at the very minimum. We nearly always kick inside 50 to advantage the opposition. Losing Cuningham is shaping as a big loss because he’s smart around goals. Losing Curnow was massive and without those two our forward line was full of holes. Then losing McGovern didn’t help.
But overall it’s not just a matter of that we need to win a game, it’s probably going to be a lot harder than most expected because our senior players aren’t really natural leaders and most make fundamental mistakes in crucial moments all the time. I think we’re not gonna be anywhere near finals until we have players that push Murphy, Thomas, E. Curnow and Simpson out of the team.
As far as BB is concerned, he has got faults, probably the biggest is putting faith in players who continually don’t meet (supporters) expectations, but ‘try hard ‘.
I've been a Teague fan but.....
Teague's our forward coach
Our forward line is a shambles.
You would have to be an insider to know what's actually going on there ….but Teague has enough on his plate to get that functional before we hand over a senior gig to him.
That or a victim of a crappy game that gets the ball into the F50 in the most inefficient way. There's no way you can set up with that crap coming into the F50.
Also guessing whatever Ratten was doing under Pagan wasn't looking so good either. Then he got the job and did well.
Watching the tape.....Heeney gets a golden run. Pushes blokes out... No free.... Touch him it's a free. He's a F+*,ing Bilby that bloke.
The two goals that Buddy kicked were rotten calls as well. He gets frees based on reputation...he's buddy and his opponent is a no name (Jones) who doesn't count.
Shouldn't have expected any different, Swans got stiffed last week, can't have that two weeks in a row.
Problem I have is McKay gets blocked or held and they just ignore it.
We wont play finals but the swans won't either.
I went to the game today and saw the Swans do what they do year in and year out - use precision kicking and accurate handball under pressure, whether on the back line or forward line, to win the game.
On the other hand I saw Carlton, despite having so many first round picks, butcher the ball by hand and foot as they have on so many occasions this century. Despite the number of coaches and skill coaches the priority for Carlton players with the ball seems to be:
a) Where possible, whether in defence or attack, kick to an opposition player who is by himself
b) Kick the ball short in front of the oncoming Carlton player so that the opposition player can sweep up the ball or create a stoppage
c) Use the chaos theory - just slam the ball on to your boot so the opposition won't know where it is going, and neither will the Carlton players
d) always handball to a teammate who is under maximum pressure.
Seriously, I'm over it. As I said once before, I've followed Carlton for 74 years and always thought the dark years of the club 1948 to 1967 would never be repeated, but I see no relief in sight in this century.
As others have said: is the club in a collective mental state where winning games is unachievable?
1964 was the last.
I remember 64 we had our worst season ever to that date, in our centenary year. We disgracefully finished 10th ????
By our standards of today a dream year!
BUT it brought in a ruthless administration when Harris took over, got Barrassi and had our greatest period.
Maybe it is time for a revolution and time for ruthlessness from the top and fear of not performing
.................................
As others have said: is the club in a collective mental state where winning games is unachievable?
Turning a losing culture into a winning culture is a monumental task, that goes well beyond one individual or department. Which is one reason among many why I see no value in sacking the coach. As you state, all sorts of personnel come and go (players, coaches, football dept heads, presidents etc.) but still the culture persists. It's almost as though it's now part of the bricks and mortar. It's a devilishly hard habit to break.
A lot of negativity on here today. Understandable that people are hurting, but calling for the coaches head?
People realise that we had more scoring shots today? Sure, it was just 1, but it was MORE.
You know what that means? If we had've kicked it through the big sticks a bit more, we would've won the game. As simple as that.
McKay kicked 1.3, at least a couple he should've kicked, 1 from 15m out i believe.
Casboult did was casboult does and hit the post at a key moment in the game.
Setters kicked 0.2 and of course there were others.
We played poorly, but ultimately it was mere kicking at goal that cost us the game. Imagine when we play well?
No need to (re)start a rebuild, just kick straighter.
And this from the Hun:
Patrick Dangerfield had one piece of advice regarding the new 6-6-6 rule at this year’s AFL Players’ Association season launch.
“Put money on ‘Crippa’ for the Brownlow,” Dangerfield said.
It might’ve been a hot tip. After Round 3 Cripps might well have polled in three losing teams with Saturday’s performance in a 19-point loss to Sydney his finest.
Rarely has a football team been built so exclusively around one player. Cripps isn’t just the heartbeat at Carlton, he’s the entire aorta and the lungs as well.
The problem for Cripps is that’s where the superstar talent ends. He was helpless to stop Sydney squashing a wasteful Carlton at Marvel Stadium.
Cripps won eight of his 13 clearances bursting out of the centre. The next best was third-gamer Sam Walsh with three centre clearances.
Cripps laid eight tackles, three more than every other teammate. Boy, how he must yearn for some midfield mates.
Yeah, Cripps and daylight really. Walsh is showing a bit, but we still lack that support. Setterfield it should be remembered is playing his 4th game.
We need to get some decent midfielders to help out Cripps, like Sydney has.
Walsh - 28 possessions and 8 clearances (subpar as a support for Cripps?)
Alternatively..
Kennedy - 31 possessions and 7 clearances
Jones - 31 possessions and 7 clearances
Parker - 18 touches and 5 clearances
Simple fact is, when 1 player is so dominant (Cripps) it doesn't matter who else is on the ground, they can't put up similar numbers. Josh Kennedy is up there with the best mids in the game over a long period. an 18yo kid just equalled his numbers and yet we are a 1-man side in need of more midfield help.
Perspective. Get some.
I hate it that we lost. It really irritates me. But we are getting better. It is going to take time, and that frustrates me the most. I am tired of losing to these zeroes!
[1] Our midfield is very much on the improve, but we were out-muscled in that department today. Cripps was tagged and still got close to 30 possessions. The rest were good in patches, but not enough for long enough. Lobbe competed very well, but he is not a premiership ruckman and it showed. As it is, he deserves another game on that effort.
[2] Our small forwards are very much a work in progress. Neither Polson or Gibbons could make an impression today. I do not think either are lost causes, but one or both should be in the VFL next week. Assuming we have someone to replace them.
Ed Curnow showed a lot with his 4 goals, as a defensive forward. Can he repeat it? That I doubt, but I loved the way he went at it today.
Murphy spent some time up forward and got a goal, a good one.
[3] Our tall forwards are also a work in progress, especially with Charlie Curnow not out there. Levi was good today, both on the ground and in the air. The Gov was better until he was hurt. His goal was a beauty. H marked the ball well but got nothing from the umpires. But all of them expect the bomb into the forward like too much. We need to drop our eyes and find a leading option. Sydney did it and managed goals from it.
[4] We were hurt again by the umpiring today. The push out by Franklin had to be paid and wasn't. H was taken out any number of times and couldn't manage a free. I could go on. If we are good enough this isn't going to matter. However, we are not good enough yet, so every one is a dagger in the heart.
[5] Jones had to be close to BOG. he destroyed Franklin and appeared to get better as the game went on. It was a really big effort. Jacob wasn't far behind: he had a good day.
[6] Our smaller defenders, on the other hand, were patchier. Simmo has not yet got close to his normal form. Perhaps he is human afterall. Newman was good, while Plowman and Marchbank were good in patches. However, Heeney still managed to get 4 goals.
[7] Our disposal is improving, but we still miss the target too often. Sydney showed us how to do it, with classy disposal and goal kicking that rarely missed. We did not make the best use of our scoring shots, especially as we had more of them. Paddy Dow's mistakes today hurt, as did the 3 posters.
[8] Lochie O'Brien also did not stand out. He has not managed to come on as we had hoped.
[4] We were hurt again by the umpiring today. The push out by Franklin had to be paid and wasn't. H was taken out any number of times and couldn't manage a free. I could go on. If we are good enough this isn't going to matter. However, we are not good enough yet, so every one is a dagger in the heart.
I was at the game today and that Franklin push was obvious to me 150m away. How the umps missed it when there are 2 within 20m is simply laughable.
The other one was when we tackled buddy on the boundary line and it was paid as play on, instead of dropping the ball.
Both were obvious, yet both went in buddys favour.
THEN there was the 50-50s that buddy got. I think there was one for front on contact. Not disimillar to about 7 that was not paid against McKay.
The umps didn't cost us the game, but they certainly cost us momentum on multiple occassions.
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/video/2019-04-06/r3-bolton-postmatch
After 3 years of properly fobbing us off, he is starting to talk like all other AFL coaches. Names players, answers questions directly, talks about tactics etc.
The switch has happened folks. No green shoots, or bean sprouts or anything else.
I like it.
“Our midfield is very much on the improve, but we were out-muscled in that department today. Cripps was tagged and still got close to 30 possessions. The rest were good in patches, but not enough for long enough.“
Compare age, experience and the physical attributes of SPS, Dow, Fisher, Sedderfield, Cripps, Walsh to Parker, Kennedy, Jones, Papley Heeney
Cripps is a star, SPS is improving at a rapid rate, Dow is showing plenty for a 22 game player, ditto Sedderfield for 5 games, Walsh will be the fastest player in history to hit the ‘elite’ category....and he’s only played 3 games, Fisher (75 kg and 34 games) continue to work hard and give 110%.
Parker 85kg. 172 games
Kennedy 95. 226
Jones. 81. 72
Papley 75 64
Heeney 80. 80
I know the grasshoppers are less than patient, but the midfield is evolving as a unit and will continue to do so.
I went to the game today and saw the Swans do what they do year in and year out - use precision kicking and accurate handball under pressure, whether on the back line or forward line, to win the game.
On the other hand I saw Carlton, despite having so many first round picks, butcher the ball by hand and foot as they have on so many occasions this century. Despite the number of coaches and skill coaches the priority for Carlton players with the ball seems to be:
a) Where possible, whether in defence or attack, kick to an opposition player who is by himself
b) Kick the ball short in front of the oncoming Carlton player so that the opposition player can sweep up the ball or create a stoppage
c) Use the chaos theory - just slam the ball on to your boot so the opposition won't know where it is going, and neither will the Carlton players
d) always handball to a teammate who is under maximum pressure.
Seriously, I'm over it. As I said once before, I've followed Carlton for 74 years and always thought the dark years of the club 1948 to 1967 would never be repeated, but I see no relief in sight in this century.
As others have said: is the club in a collective mental state where winning games is unachievable?
You're old!...lol.
I feel better now...haha.
I sound like a broken record but does anyone really think we will win any game when we try and carry bloke like Gibbons, Polson, and O’Brien who hardly touch it then when they do they have no clue.
Opposition teams must giggle when they see those names on the team sheet on a Thursday night before they play us.
We don’t have the quality to cover blokes who are lucky to touch the footy 5 times a match.
They might be AFL ready one day but are miles off at the moment. And that’s an understatement. If Bolton keeps persisting with them cause they ‘try’ hard or they try and lock the ball in we are doomed. And I’m not on my own supporters were laughing at them today because of how far off these blokes are.
Until these players are replaced by afl standard footballers all we can hope for is more honourable loses, at best.
I was at the game today and that Franklin push was obvious to me 150m away. How the umps missed it when there are 2 within 20m is simply laughable.
The other one was when we tackled buddy on the boundary line and it was paid as play on, instead of dropping the ball.
Both were obvious, yet both went in buddys favour.
THEN there was the 50-50s that buddy got. I think there was one for front on contact. Not disimillar to about 7 that was not paid against McKay.
The umps didn't cost us the game, but they certainly cost us momentum on multiple occassions.
The umpires call for the tackle on franklin was that the ball went over the line before it was or wasn’t holding the ball. Still should have been holding the ball in my opinion.
The umpires call for the tackle on franklin was that the ball went over the line before it was or wasn’t holding the ball. Still should have been holding the ball in my opinion.
On the replay i saw, the ball never went over the line....certainly not the entire ball which is required to blow the whistle.
On the replay i saw, the ball never went over the line....certainly not the entire ball which is required to blow the whistle.
No it didn’t.
Yet it was thrown in instead of being our kick.
Wasn’t the best day for umpiring for all the aforementioned reasons, plus all the holding on Cripps that got overlooked. Umpires seem to think that since he’s strong enough to keep moving it isn’t holding.
Hardwick had a big sook about Dusty's treatment today.
Hardwick had a big sook about Dusty's treatment today.
Dont know who Richmond are playing next week but odds on Dusty will be BOG with plenty of help from the umpires...........
Dont know who Richmond are playing next week but odds on Dusty will be BOG with plenty of help from the umpires...........
Port in Adelaide. Saturday arvo.
Dont know who Richmond are playing next week but odds on Dusty will be BOG with plenty of help from the umpires...........
X2
So my 10yr old, who didn’t want to go today because ‘we always lose’ still wanted a new top (thanks mainly to No. 9!!) just said to me: our play is kick it here and there and handball to someone with the opposition right behind them, or to the boundary which then rolls out but Sydney’s was kick - mark, kick - mark, kick, goal. Even a 10 year old deciphers the glaring problem with our game a lot of the time - too much forking possessions that end up being turned over!
And screw Buddy and the Umps, load of BS calls but we need to demonstrate and stand the hell up! We are still quiet mice!!!
Shout out to big H setting a contested mark record today ????
Not a green shoot. Not an "almost". Not a "brave" performance.
But an achievement that supersedes all AFL players in this skill.
Take a bow H.
I like Bolton too. Seems like a terrific, chirpy, upbeat kinda fella.
Although it might sound pedantic and just semantics but for me it's not about simply sacking BB. It's about understanding that we must now put someone in charge of this group who has been to the mountain top, someone who has had experience at molding a young group into a continual top 4 side. It's about entrusting this group to experience, not experiment.
BB was probably just the right bloke to keep the fans patient during a rebuild but now we need experience at the helm, otherwise a wonderful opportunity may just slide away.
I’ll get Mick on the line... or would you prefer Dennis ?
We seem to have started the season with individual players in hit or miss form.
We have about half a dozen who have been consistently good.
For others it's been a good one week (hold my place)... ineffective the next week.
The inconsistency of youth, coupled with an introduction of players from other clubs.
Yes it will take a while to develop a better understanding of each others strengths and weaknesses but we need the team to settle and gain confidence.
That gets a boost with a win or two.
We won't get that with wholesale changes each week.
looking at the stats, simply too many passengers again....
Dow, Polson, Gibbons, Setters, LoB - simply not enough.
I will be furious if Kennedy is not injured? He should have played.
Did the Gov get injured?
I said this two years ago and everyone laughed. Bolton is a goose. This club is inspid. We are a club with no heart, no guts, a heap of spud GWS rejects and a poor excuse for a coach and line coaches. We've won 2 games in about 30 matches. Is this acceptable? Well it must be because it continues to happen and everyone says we're getting better. Have people forgotton what it's like to support a club that wins. He should have been sacked tonight after that appauling disaster show today.
Shout out to big H setting a contested mark record today ????
Not a green shoot. Not an "almost". Not a "brave" performance.
But an achievement that supersedes all AFL players in this skill.
Take a bow H.
Good point LN. Great effort from the young man.
Good point LN. Great effort from the young man.
Straight swap, Melbourne boy Lyon for Perth boy Cripps!
This would have to be one of the most infuriating match reports I've ever read:
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/patrick-cripps-was-outstanding-but-sydney-too-good-for-carlton-as-swans-record-first-win-of-2019/news-story/008280d51685c5cbc6266e0ef3351e18
I won't post the whole thing but here are some highlights:
1. Rarely has a football team been built so exclusively around one player. Cripps isn’t just the heartbeat at Carlton, he’s the entire aorta and the lungs as well.
2. Bolton revealed the Blues had made a conscious effort not to over-coach Walsh. “We haven’t over-coached Walshy. It can be a real trap where you get a young guy in with a real free mind and spirit. It’s so important he keeps playing with the freedom and run he does.”
3. (Bolton)“Our ability to adjust in-game was a conversation. Another conversation was we had an extra scoring shot, but in set-shots we kicked 4.6. There’s a set of fundamentals that add up."
Shout out to big H setting a contested mark record today ????
Not a green shoot. Not an "almost". Not a "brave" performance.
But an achievement that supersedes all AFL players in this skill.
Take a bow H.
Take a bow when he does what Hipwood did yesterday....
This would have to be one of the most infuriating match reports I've ever read:
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/patrick-cripps-was-outstanding-but-sydney-too-good-for-carlton-as-swans-record-first-win-of-2019/news-story/008280d51685c5cbc6266e0ef3351e18
I won't post the whole thing but here are some highlights:
1. Rarely has a football team been built so exclusively around one player. Cripps isn’t just the heartbeat at Carlton, he’s the entire aorta and the lungs as well.
2. Bolton revealed the Blues had made a conscious effort not to over-coach Walsh. “We haven’t over-coached Walshy. It can be a real trap where you get a young guy in with a real free mind and spirit. It’s so important he keeps playing with the freedom and run he does.”
3. (Bolton)“Our ability to adjust in-game was a conversation. Another conversation was we had an extra scoring shot, but in set-shots we kicked 4.6. There’s a set of fundamentals that add up."
Points 2 and 3 sound fair enough to me. Point 1 has an element of truth to it, but has been exaggerated for dramatic effect. I don't have an HS subscription, but judging by this and other samples, it sounds like money well saved.
Points 2 and 3 come directly from Bolton's presser. It's on the CFC website, and IMO it's the best presser he's ever given.
I'm calmer now than yesterday...thankfully though I saw very little of it live (listened as much as I could).
Yes, we now have a more consistent effort across the park BUT our players still appear to have no system and no plan to counter a team like Sydney when a team like Sydney starts playing like a team like Sydney does....
BUT for those two very late goals in the 3rd we were a fair way off it....because BB and co simply had no answer to the Sydney game plan (which is the same game plan they've employed for 20 years mind you). And tried nothing from the reports I had at the time.
For all of the 2nd quarter and alll but a few minutes of the third we were underwhelming (to be polite). Not poor by any means but not at senior AFL footy level. Wing and a prayer kicks, handballs to team mates under the pump, lazy forwards....
That's what worries me the most.
We're losing games at the selection table and on match day. No way should we have played LOB, Polson, Gibbons, Setters, Dow, Fisher, Walsh all together against a very mature bodied, physical team like Sydney. SoJ, Kennedy (if fit) and Fasolo should have played. Fasolo needs senior game time in him (perhaps Bolton read Kruddler's rants here and jumped onboard), not fluff around time in the 2s.
Not to mention question marks over the fitness of Smurf and Marchy?
At least they had a plan for Buddy yesterday - would have been goal less bar the charity from the powers that be....
Points 2 and 3 sound fair enough to me. Point 1 has an element of truth to it, but has been exaggerated for dramatic effect. I don't have an HS subscription, but judging by this and other samples, it sounds like money well saved.
Points 2 and 3 come directly from Bolton's presser. It's on the CFC website, and IMO it's the best presser he's ever given.
Its infuriating because its either true (yes, we're a one man team) or because our coach is basically acknowledging things we all see but he's not doing enough about.
Here's some more truth: "What impact on the game did Michael Gibbons or Cam Polson have? Will top-10 picks Lochie O’Brien or Will Setterfield enjoy their review? Where was Levi Casboult after an early contested mark on the wing?"
I'm calmer now than yesterday...thankfully though I saw very little of it live (listened as much as I could).
Yes, we now have a more consistent effort across the park BUT our players still appear to have no system and no plan to counter a team like Sydney when a team like Sydney starts playing like a team like Sydney does....
BUT for those two very late goals in the 3rd we were a fair way off it....because BB and co simply had no answer to the Sydney game plan (which is the same game plan they've employed for 20 years mind you). And tried nothing from the reports I had at the time.
For all of the 2nd quarter and alll but a few minutes of the third we were underwhelming (to be polite). Not poor by any means but not at senior AFL footy level. Wing and a prayer kicks, handballs to team mates under the pump, lazy forwards....
That's what worries me the most.
We're losing games at the selection table and on match day. No way should we have played LOB, Polson, Gibbons, Setters, Dow, Fisher, Walsh all together against a very mature bodies, physical team like Sydney. SoJ, Kennedy (if fit) and Fasolo should have played. Fasolo needs senior game time in him (perhaps Bolton read Kruddler's rants here and jumped onboard), not fluff around time in the 2s.
Not to mention question marks over the fitness of Smurf and Marchy?
At least they had a plan for Buddy yesterday - would have been goal less bar the charity from the powers that be....
Agree with this - the game plan lacked enterprise and we played a very predictable game. It’s the coaches responsibility to instill his team with the confidence to take the game on and go for that kick through the corridor.
If we’re honest we’re getting very patchy performances from our experienced players like E Curnow, Simpson, Thomas, Murphy. We need better. Ed is a great example 4 great goals but I counted 4 handballs that stranded his teammates and 4 kicks off the mark.
Along with Gibbons and Polson, we need to start dropoing guys from the group above to make a stand that 3/33 is not good enough.
Yes, our senior core - Simmo, Murph, Ed and Daisy never really influence games decisively.
Decent contributors more often than not, but they never change the tide...these days.
And Simmo, Ed and Murph can often be turnover merchants too. That is unacceptable for blokes of their experience....
Let's hope Matty K alters that trend on his return....
If Crippa were injured, we'd be truly shellacked week in, week out.
Yes, our senior core - Simmo, Murph, Ed and Daisy never really influence games decisively.
Decent contributors more often than not, but they never change the tide...these days.
And Simmo, Ed and Murph can often be turnover merchants too. That is unacceptable for blokes of their experience....
Let's hope Matty K alters that trend on his return....
If Crippa were injured, we'd be truly shellacked week in, week out.
Ed kicked 4 goals. Reckon that had an influence on the game
Ed kicked 4 goals. Reckon that had an influence on the game
Ed got lucky...reference his first two games of the season....cost us dearly.
I thought our senior core - Simmo, Murph and Daisy - were non-existent. Therein lies the problem. Swans' senior core were their prime movers.
Ed contributed tremendously, but even he would admit that at least two of those goals were sheer flukes. I'm not banking on him being a multiple goal kicker in future, I can only recall him kicking more than one goal on about 5 occasions in his career. I'd be happier if he could consistently kick 1 goal a game and lay 8 tackles.
Ed got lucky...reference his first two games of the season....cost us dearly.
.... And I was calling for him to potentially be dropped for this game. Point still stands though.
Every player on your list can't influence every game they play.
.... And I was calling for him to potentially be dropped for this game. Point still stands though.
Every player on your list can't influence every game they play.
Well then, you miss the point. Read the Prof's comment - he's being less subtle but more correct.
When we have Doc and Willo at HB for Daisy and Simmo we'll be a lot better team - i'd like daisy at HFF, ditto Murph.
In the last, we had it in our forward 50 4-5 Times and converted with 3 behinds (I think). That keeping it in our F50 prior to that, was non existent, which angered me greatly! Make it hard for them to get it out,Lock it in.
people around me were saying stop going to the zone (I couldn’t tell) but why did we wait until the 4th quarter to apply pressure?
To be honest, at the game it just seemed that not only were Syd much more direct with their delivery, but they wanted itmore - saw wat too many times a CFC player standing on the out waiting for the ball to come out. Hugely frustrating to see Cripps pop up all over the ground doing it all - he’s gonna get mighty sick of doing that for nought every week!
Ed got lucky...reference his first two games of the season....cost us dearly.
I dips me lid to Ed for yesterday's efforts but will he be able to keep up that sort of contribution, or even close to it, on a regular enough basis?
Anyway, got home from the game yesterday feeling drained and exhausted and eventually, after a few beers, fell asleep for 2 hours on the couch with the Collingwood v Eagles game blaring away. Hopefully I'll be recovered enough to go to our next game in Melbourne, but not feeling very keen atm - a win would work wonders!
Well then, you miss the point. Read the Prof's comment - he's being less subtle but more correct.
When we have Doc and Willo at HB for Daisy and Simmo we'll be a lot better team - i'd like daisy at HFF, ditto Murph.
You and prof have said the same thing, except you included Ed as a non-contributor he doesn't influence games. I am pointed out that he clearly influenced this game. Yes, he got a bit lucky with some stuff, but sometimes the ball bounces your way.
As for Murphy, Simmo and Daisy......people underestimate how important they are.
At worst, if they have zero influence on the game directly, they are at least forcing the opposition to man up on them and pay them some respect.
Disagree?
Buddy was largely useless for Swans because Jones flogged him.
Does that mean the swans would've been better off without him yesterday?
If he didn't play that means Jones is free to go to someone else, and flogged him...and so on down the pecking order.
The fact those guys are still around means that blokes like Walsh, SPS, Dow, Obrien get a lesser known player on them.
....and thats worst case scenario.
If they perform....
It's an interesting discussion about our seniors.
I'm a Murphy fan but will be the first to admit I am anxious when he's got ball in hand this season. Ditto Simmo, and Daisy has been patchy too.
For mine inconsistencies from our senior core, put too much pressure on our youngsters. Whilst they need challenges to develop, the back up needs to be one they are confident in. Otherwise there's the flow of pressure.
We all know our side has a wide gulf between senior- junior ranks (my reference is no. AFL games). This is what i see playing out. We have very talented youngsters who need a balance between responsibility- trusting back up (seniors). If our seniors were delivering like say Sydney, as others have noted, it would be a very different game. Remove a couple of those 'passing to someone under greater pressure' acts (clangers etc) each quarter, and suddenly the youngsters have an extra second to master their play.
I hate losing but I think if we can narrow that gap slightly, we'll see our youngsters development enhanced. That imo starts at the selection table. If we look unmatched there, we know what happens next. Walsh on Parker is wonderful exposure but let's not expect the impossible. When we've got more depth at selection (I.e Charlie, Kennedy, Marchy with game time, and Willo), and put that to advantage, we'll get over the line. I also think that Phillips late out, and no Kruez means we are starting behind the 8ball.
Go Blues.
Oh and... Liam Jones
Take a bow. Did your job and did it superbly against one of the best.
Between you and ASOS, our lil buddy might just be getting nagged by the lil man upstairs.
Congratulations.
Jones was BOG.
I feel like I have literally watched a replay of every time we've lost to the Swans for the last 10 years.
Our mids refuse to man up for the entire match. Zone / 10-15m away from their opponents and the Swans just chip the ball through us all day.
It was one of the most disappointing matches I think I've ever watched and I include 90+ point hammerings in that. It's like we have no understanding of the most basic elements required to win a game of football. If you're sitting there on the coaching panel watching the way the Swans very simply chipped their way through our team over and over and over and did nothing to stop it - what are you doing there.
Forget talent/age - this has nothing to do with that - it's just effort. If the coaches instruction is to run that extra 10m to shut down the only option the Swans ball carrier has and the player doesn't follow that instruction then the coach should be dragging you and send you to the VFL the next week and finding someone else to do it.
My suspicion is our coaching performance was seriously sub-par. I have practically never criticised Bolton but this game was winnable and I don't know if Bolton knows how to extract the performance required to win a game any more.
I never thought it was winnable. The Swans are not what they were, but they are still a good side, and will be playing finals for sure. Still virtually the same team that started 2017 0-6 and finished 6th. They only lost 2 of the last 16 games.
I'm flummoxed that people thought this was winnable.
EDIT : both 2017 and 18 they finished with W/L of 14-8.
This would have to be one of the most infuriating match reports I've ever read:
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/patrick-cripps-was-outstanding-but-sydney-too-good-for-carlton-as-swans-record-first-win-of-2019/news-story/008280d51685c5cbc6266e0ef3351e18
I won't post the whole thing but here are some highlights:
1. Rarely has a football team been built so exclusively around one player. Cripps isn’t just the heartbeat at Carlton, he’s the entire aorta and the lungs as well.
2. Bolton revealed the Blues had made a conscious effort not to over-coach Walsh. “We haven’t over-coached Walshy. It can be a real trap where you get a young guy in with a real free mind and spirit. It’s so important he keeps playing with the freedom and run he does.”
3. (Bolton)“Our ability to adjust in-game was a conversation. Another conversation was we had an extra scoring shot, but in set-shots we kicked 4.6. There’s a set of fundamentals that add up."
Whoever wrote this, and I don't care who it was, hasn't watched us much and didn't notice much yesterday either.
[1] Jones flogged Franklin in the sort of game that makes you realize just how much he has improved.
[2] Our young mids are better than last year. Not good enough yet, but definitely on the up. Dow, SPS and Fisher to name just three.
[3] Our 3rd string ruck best even with their rucks. Last year it was different.
[4] Has this person ever heard of McKay or Charlie Curnow?
We have our problems, of that there is no doubt. But we are more than a 1 man team, even with Cripps being as good as he is.
Agree crash.
Jones was BOG.
I feel like I have literally watched a replay of every time we've lost to the Swans for the last 10 years.
Our mids refuse to man up for the entire match. Zone / 10-15m away from their opponents and the Swans just chip the ball through us all day.
It was one of the most disappointing matches I think I've ever watched and I include 90+ point hammerings in that. It's like we have no understanding of the most basic elements required to win a game of football. If you're sitting there on the coaching panel watching the way the Swans very simply chipped their way through our team over and over and over and did nothing to stop it - what are you doing there.
Forget talent/age - this has nothing to do with that - it's just effort. If the coaches instruction is to run that extra 10m to shut down the only option the Swans ball carrier has and the player doesn't follow that instruction then the coach should be dragging you and send you to the VFL the next week and finding someone else to do it.
My suspicion is our coaching performance was seriously sub-par. I have practically never criticised Bolton but this game was winnable and I don't know if Bolton knows how to extract the performance required to win a game any more.
The turn-around with Jones is a marvel.
Our inability or unwillingness to pick up the Swans and disrupt their short kicking game lost it for us.
It is one thing to play our style of game, which looked nice when we did it, but we need to disrupt the opposition's style. We haven't learnt to do that yet. I'm not even sure the coaches have learnt that yet.
Apologies if I repeat earlier comments (late to the forum) but just another one of those "what if" games and like most here, I'm about over these honourable losses and Bolton's post-game waffling. For mine, he'll be lucky to keep his job until the end of the season. You can spin it all you want but we've won one of our last 34 games....some ridiculous stat I heard mentioned.
For the multitude of high draft pick players we've got, is it just me or are youngsters just not developing quick enough? Would SPS or Zac Fisher be into their 3rd seasons at a Geelong or Hawthorn and still be drifting along? For all of our high end draft picks, I can't think of one player on our list with what you would call "elite" kicking skills...not one! We were positive last year with some of the games by Paddy Dow but how many times did he butcher it yesterday...ditto O'Brien. McKay's contested marking was a highlight but seriously, if you can't kick straight from 15m out directly in front it's a worry. We were damn lucky that Ed Curnow managed to kick a few freakish goals yesterday.
Walsh played another great game but unlikely to get the Rising Star nomination because of Rozee's 5 goal game. But even his kicking let him down at times.
Nothing personal but Polson and Gibbons are not up to AFL standard at the moment. If Polson was playing a defensive forward role, can someone tell me who it was on so I can check if they got over 30 possessions like most of their defenders. Gibbons excited us with 3 goals in that first JLT game but has barely touched it since then and needs to go back to the VFL for now.
If not for Patrick Cripps, the losing margin in the first 3 games would be even higher. I said it last week that if he didn't get support on the inside we'd have no chance and that's exactly how it panned out. He simply cannot do any more for the team and unless we get someone in there to help him, the season will be another nightmare.
Lobbe battled hard but once again the opposing ruckman was close to best on ground. We can't get Kreuzer in there quick enough. For mine, I'd persist with Levi...yes he missed a set shot when we were in with a sniff but his work around the ground was good and he smashed some packs and bowled a few of their blokes over. Once again McGovern did very little until going off injured.
So very frustrating again and it's hard to see where a win is going to come from.
Agree on an earlier comment re Marc Murphy....for an experienced player, he's just not in the games for long enough periods.
One of the few positives was Liam Jones who played a great game and thankfully the umpires aren't falling for some of Buddy's staging antics these days. Jones stayed focused on the job all day.
Does Wallsy sit in the coaches box? Just sayin...
I always thought SOS would've been a good coach. ???
There was an artical in the HS by Mark Robinson. Listed below are some of the points of the artical. Its a god read and if anyone has a login they may like to post some more details.
Not in thre couches box, however he's at the club 3 times a week getting up ay 5.30 am on thoses mornings to be at Ikon park at 7.00am, staying until about 2.30pm. He's at every training session, sometimes on the track with players and oftens sits in on coaches mettings. He also watches VFL games. Walls is to be a sounding board for BB and the other 10 assistant coaches. He has gained the trust of all coaches, often the assistant coaches tap him on the shoulder for advice and tap into his knowledge.
There was an artical in the HS by Mark Robinson. Listed below are some of the points of the artical. Its a god read and if anyone has a login they may like to post some more details.
Not in thre couches box, however he's at the club 3 times a week getting up ay 5.30 am on thoses mornings to be at Ikon park at 7.00am, staying until about 2.30pm. He's at every training session, sometimes on the track with players and oftens sits in on coaches mettings. He also watches VFL games. Walls is to be a sounding board for BB and the other 10 assistant coaches. He has gained the trust of all coaches, often the assistant coaches tap him on the shoulder for advice and tap into his knowledge.
If that's his remit, it's more involvement than I had previously imagined, especially being at every training session. That's a fair workload for a voluntary position.
Apologies if I repeat earlier comments (late to the forum) but just another one of those "what if" games and like most here, I'm about over these honourable losses and Bolton's post-game waffling. For mine, he'll be lucky to keep his job until the end of the season. You can spin it all you want but we've won one of our last 34 games....some ridiculous stat I heard mentioned.
For the multitude of high draft pick players we've got, is it just me or are youngsters just not developing quick enough? Would SPS or Zac Fisher be into their 3rd seasons at a Geelong or Hawthorn and still be drifting along? For all of our high end draft picks, I can't think of one player on our list with what you would call "elite" kicking skills...not one! We were positive last year with some of the games by Paddy Dow but how many times did he butcher it yesterday...ditto O'Brien. McKay's contested marking was a highlight but seriously, if you can't kick straight from 15m out directly in front it's a worry. We were damn lucky that Ed Curnow managed to kick a few freakish goals yesterday.
Walsh played another great game but unlikely to get the Rising Star nomination because of Rozee's 5 goal game. But even his kicking let him down at times.
Nothing personal but Polson and Gibbons are not up to AFL standard at the moment. If Polson was playing a defensive forward role, can someone tell me who it was on so I can check if they got over 30 possessions like most of their defenders. Gibbons excited us with 3 goals in that first JLT game but has barely touched it since then and needs to go back to the VFL for now.
If not for Patrick Cripps, the losing margin in the first 3 games would be even higher. I said it last week that if he didn't get support on the inside we'd have no chance and that's exactly how it panned out. He simply cannot do any more for the team and unless we get someone in there to help him, the season will be another nightmare.
Lobbe battled hard but once again the opposing ruckman was close to best on ground. We can't get Kreuzer in there quick enough. For mine, I'd persist with Levi...yes he missed a set shot when we were in with a sniff but his work around the ground was good and he smashed some packs and bowled a few of their blokes over. Once again McGovern did very little until going off injured.
So very frustrating again and it's hard to see where a win is going to come from.
Agree on an earlier comment re Marc Murphy....for an experienced player, he's just not in the games for long enough periods.
One of the few positives was Liam Jones who played a great game and thankfully the umpires aren't falling for some of Buddy's staging antics these days. Jones stayed focused on the job all day.
Walsh, Dow and Setterfield are not elite field kicks......SPS is the only real legitimate good deliverer of the football we have......even Cripps, Murphy are not great users of the ball by foot.
Fisher is a good kick but he is being tagged more these days and his disposals are often under real pressure..for all our midfield riches we dont have that real silky edge to the group
and we rely on quantity of disposals rather than quality.
Whoever wrote this, and I don't care who it was, hasn't watched us much and didn't notice much yesterday either.
[1] Jones flogged Franklin in the sort of game that makes you realize just how much he has improved.
[2] Our young mids are better than last year. Not good enough yet, but definitely on the up. Dow, SPS and Fisher to name just three.
[3] Our 3rd string ruck best even with their rucks. Last year it was different.
[4] Has this person ever heard of McKay or Charlie Curnow?
We have our problems, of that there is no doubt. But we are more than a 1 man team, even with Cripps being as good as he is.
As usual Crash, well said Ol Boy ;)
I never thought it was winnable. The Swans are not what they were, but they are still a good side, and will be playing finals for sure. Still virtually the same team that started 2017 0-6 and finished 6th. They only lost 2 of the last 16 games.
I'm flummoxed that people thought this was winnable.
EDIT : both 2017 and 18 they finished with W/L of 14-8.
Paul...they were 0-2 away from home, the difference in the past has been Buddy...enter Jones who does his job ably assisted by Weitering, they have two players injured when the game is still up for grabs.
This was winnable IMO.....
We were beaten by a team they had 100 more disposals than us. Pretty much all uncontested.
This could have been winnable, but we were easily out coached on game day. Again.
We don’t apply enough pressure around the ground to make a zone defence work. The other clubs know this and just work into the gaps using short kicks and good running patterns.
We were beaten by a team they had 100 more disposals than us. Pretty much all uncontested.
This could have been winnable, but we were easily out coached on game day. Again.
I have lost all faith I had in BB. I firmly believe he isn’t the coach to take us to the next level. With that’s said I do believe there is still a place for him at the club, just not as head coach.
We were beaten by a team they had 100 more disposals than us. Pretty much all uncontested.
This could have been winnable, but we were easily out coached on game day. Again.
We don’t apply enough pressure around the ground to make a zone defence work. The other clubs know this and just work into the gaps using short kicks and good running patterns.
If you were coach yesterday, what would you have done different to win us the game?
If you were coach yesterday, what would you have done different to win us the game?
If Barbs was coach we wouldn't be worse because that would be impossible.
If you were coach yesterday, what would you have done different to win us the game?
That’s the issue, there is nothing you can do on game day when the game plan that you train 4-5 a week is no good. It’s too complicated and convoluted.
Best example I can give you is our tackling. We tackle around the waist and don’t look to lock the hands. Other teams specifically tackle by grabbing on to the hands, hence they get more Holding the Ball calls in comparison to us.
I went yesterday and it was deja vu, nothing much has changed from last year except that now Cripps and Walsh fly the flag whereas last year it was only Cripps.
It's a big ask for a kid in game three.
If we don't start winning semi regularly Bolton is finished, he's a good bloke and probably a good coach but it's just not working at the moment, maybe we need someone a bit more hard nosed and ruthless to instil some real desire and confidence into the players.
Reload for next week, hopefully minus Polson and Gibbons, but 0 and 4 will make it very tough on Bolton.
Why must it be a "lack of ruthlessness", a "lack of toughness" that is always identified as the reason why teams fare poorly ? Surely by now this is a cliche devoid of any serious analysis ? A team loses more than they win, therefor they must require a tougher coach, a harder training schedule, more rants, more sprays, and this will lead to greater success ?
It is not a given, nor is it even known, that this is what is needed. Pagan, Malthouse, Eade and I''m sure other coaches have endured either entire careers or phases in their careers when this isn't the issue, and when such an approach has backfired.
Quite apart from this, how do we know exactly what Bolton says or does behind closed doors ?
Until he actually achieves a degree of success Bolton will always suffer in comparison to premiership and finals coaches.
Their strengths will always be used as his weaknesses
His highpoint is a handful of wins while Clarkson was sick one year.
He needs some victories as much as his players.
I don't know if you were at the game yesterday Paul but from where I was watching we looked soft, and that isn't a term I throw around often.
The buck stops with the senior coach mate, we either harden up and start winning a few games or he's finished.
If you were coach yesterday, what would you have done different to win us the game?
Abandon the zone and play tight football. Almost like it’s wet - no more leaving opposition players in space to run around us. Stay close and tackle so hard they bleed from from their butthole for a week after playing us.
Probably drop a spare man back at times to slow their ball movement down and initiate run from half back. We have to use the corridor more and stop trying to get a mark on a half back flank, pause, then kick long down the boundary line to contests with a big pack. Risk averse footy won’t work for 4 quarters.
Instead, run hard, link up with short kicks and hand passes to make their defensive structures change. Rotate players more too to support this. The few guys we have who do work hard look dead by the fourth quarter. Instead, everyone should look dead when the siren goes. We have some good runners and need to use them more in open space.
Have senior players protect the kids. They have to send a message when the opposition tries to rough up our younger players to put them off. No more bruise free footy from bigger guys like Cas and Plowman. If someone has the courage to stand in front of Cas, McKay or Gov in the future they should have to change their underwear at half time. Hell I’d even play Cas on Franklin in the first quarter just so he could crunch him in the first marking contest.
Get the captain to talk to the umpires about the holding off the ball and the nonsense calls against us. We got a raw deal yesterday and need to complain more.
If Barbs was coach we wouldn't be worse because that would be impossible.
Also, if I were coach I’d be working with management to have free beer day so we have a full house of vocal hard core Carlton supporters to help lift the team.
A big, hostile crowd against an interstate team in full voice could also help the umpires rethink their nonsense frees against us and see the holding against Cripps.
I don't know if you were at the game yesterday Paul but from where I was watching we looked soft, and that isn't a term I throw around often.
The buck stops with the senior coach mate, we either harden up and start winning a few games or he's finished.
He may well end up finished sooner than expected, but if so, I doubt his failure will have anything to do with toughness, or ruthlessness, or a lack thereof.
Those are default, typically reactionary positions, from a group of individuals (i.e supporters) who have little or no direct experience of the inner workings of a football club.
He may well end up finished sooner than expected, but if so, I doubt his failure will have anything to do with toughness, or ruthlessness, or a lack thereof
I'm not talking about flogging blokes at training or tearing strips off them verbally, what we lacked yesterday was mental strength.
When the going got tough some of our players simply didn't handle it, they made poor decisions under pressure and made skill errors executing basic tasks which they could do with their eyes closed at training.
It's a lack of self belief as much as anything, which means that we become reactive and second guess ourselves.
Collectively we don't expect to win, and when it inevitably turns against us we can't find another way.
Call it what you will, but ultimately Bolton will have to take responsibility.
I'm not talking about flogging blokes at training or tearing strips off them verbally, what we lacked yesterday was mental strength.
When the going got tough some of our players simply didn't handle it, they made poor decisions under pressure and made skill errors executing basic tasks which they could do with their eyes closed at training.
It's a lack of self belief as much as anything, which means that we become reactive and second guess ourselves.
Collectively we don't expect to win, and when it inevitably turns against us we can't find another way.
Call it what you will, but ultimately Bolton will have to take responsibility.
Wasn't this mental weakness / lack of self belief also the case under Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse and now Bolton ? So sacking the coach should solve it ?
If Barbs was coach we wouldn't be worse because that would be impossible.
How quick we forget.
Do we need to bring back Pagans hall of shame to refresh your memory?
Wasn't this mental weakness / lack of self belief also the case under Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse and now Bolton ? So sacking the coach should solve it ?
Under Pagan it was simply a lack of cattle, Ratten had a much better list and achieved some moderate success, Malthouse was a bad appointment from day one and it was a matter of time.
We still have holes in our list and are still well short of the top teams, but we should be steadily improving with the talent we've added over the last three or four years.
That's all that supporters want to see, and that's why performances like yesterday are so disappointing.
Under Pagan it was simply a lack of cattle, Ratten had a much better list and achieved some moderate success, Malthouse was a bad appointment from day one and it was a matter of time.
We still have holes in our list and are still well short of the top teams, but we should be steadily improving with the talent we've added over the last three or four years.
That's all that supporters want to see, and that's why performances like yesterday are so disappointing.
Every year since Bolton took over, it's been 40%-50% new players that take the field - when you look at last season (for example), take into account the injury toll, losing Gibbs + Docherty........ Where exactly is this improvement supposed to come from ?
How quick we forget.
Do we need to bring back Pagans hall of shame to refresh your memory?
Bolton actually has a worse record than Pagan.
Bolton actually has a worse record than Pagan.
Technically yes, but we are in more games with Bolton than we ever were with Pagan.
1 in 4 games we got belted by 10 goals or more.
Under Bolton its better than 1 in 5, despite more losses.....and despite not having Kouta, Fevola etc...
I'm clutching here.... I've seen quarters in 2019 where we matched or beat (outscored) sides, although I never felt we could seriously win any of the past three games. As opposed to 2018 when many games were over within 15 minutes and there were no periods of good footy, just game after game of total dreck. So based on the minutes of acceptable footy played, I'd put us up on last season but like every body else I want to see four quarters of good footy. Then wins will eventuate.
Technically yes, but we are in more games with Bolton than we ever were with Pagan.
1 in 4 games we got belted by 10 goals or more.
Under Bolton its better than 1 in 5, despite more losses.....and despite not having Kouta, Fevola etc...
In our three spoon years under Pagan our percentages were 73, 75 and 74%.
In 2018 it was 59%.
In our three spoon years under Pagan our percentages were 73, 75 and 74%.
In 2018 it was 59%.
2018 was our worst season in our history, so i'm not surprised.
Despite our 3 losses so far this year, and all the doom and gloom that it has brought with it, our % is currently 75.5%
So people struggling to see any improvement for you need to look no further.
BTW,
Tigers finished 1st in H+A last year
Swans finished 6th
Port finished 10th, but had a winning 12-10 record. That would've been enough to finish 7th in 2017!
So its not like we've had any easy games to start of the year, yet we have still been in every game up to this point.
Why is the sky falling again?
2018 was our worst season in our history, so i'm not surprised.
Despite our 3 losses so far this year, and all the doom and gloom that it has brought with it, our % is currently 75.5%
So roughly the same as our spoon years under Pagan?
Things can only get better I guess.
So roughly the same as our spoon years under Pagan?
Things can only get better I guess.
As problematic as it sounds, and despite the rhetoric, I don't believe the club prioritized winning games of footy under Bolton. They were clearly and openly loading up on draft talent, and other FA's, state leaguers etc along the way. His results need to be seen in the context of aims and objectives. As I see it, the club is trying to make up for 20 years of dodgy drafting in 3, at least in part.
I always worried and wrote it here many times that the tactic of defaulting in selections and tactics to develop youth, and losing to improve, might/would condition players to fail.
My fears are not yet dismissed!
I always worried and wrote it here many times that the tactic of losing to improve would condition players to fail.
My fears are not yet dismissed!
The epic rebuild is certainly a high risk / high reward strategy, and it may yet fail. Too early to call IMO.
The epic rebuild is certainly a high risk / high reward strategy, and it may yet fail. Too early to call IMO.
Sorry hadn't finished typing.
I'm clutching here.... I've seen quarters in 2019 where we matched or beat (outscored) sides, although I never felt we could seriously win any of the past three games. As opposed to 2018 when many games were over within 15 minutes and there were no periods of good footy, just game after game of total dreck. So based on the minutes of acceptable footy played, I'd put us up on last season but like every body else I want to see four quarters of good footy. Then wins will eventuate.
That’s a fair assessment Prof.
Our best so far this season is streets ahead of where we were last season. However, we still have blokes who don’t get enough of the footy (or don’t get the footy at all), miss easy goals and lose opponents when defending. We could have been eight goals to a couple in the first quarter and that probably would have produced a different result. As it was, we were the team to have doubts about our ability to win when the Swans got back into the game at the end of the quarter.
A bit of luck with injuries, decent umpiring and a dose of self-belief and we’ll shock a few sides - and some supporters :)
Over the past 3 weeks I've watched matches on tv covering all sides in the AFL. The one stat where we are clear winners is turnovers, mostly by foot.
Here we are into our fourth year of re-build with many first round picks. So why is it that we have recruited so many players lacking the ability to perform the most basic task of our game - the ability to kick a football properly?
Outside of Weitering and SPC, who do you trust to pass the ball to advantage? It must kill the spirit of the players when game after game , year after year, they see the turnovers resulting from poor kicking skills from players attempting to move the ball into the forward line from half back or midfield. And that's even before we take into account the handball clangers.
It doesn't matter whether we have inexperienced or hardened mid-20s players, if they can't kick properly then we are destined to be thumped by the top 8 sides for years to come.
Keep in mind we are in this situation because we chose to be!
Having just re-watched the game, some things;
Overall, not as bad as things seems, defence is looking surprisingly good, the main issues we have seem to be caused by occasions when our mids or senior players give up the chase causing either a shortage of numbers or allowing too much opposition space. Perhaps it's a balance issue.
I realise the Swans are not a classically fast team, but we seem to not get the mix of press/break quite correct and the likes of Parker, Henney and McVeigh exploited those opportunities. We pressed forward, and left them space to rebound. Watching it makes the game look heavily biased towards the Swans, but most of the Swan's transitional kicks and marks would be empty possessions if we had kicked straight. We force a turnovers, but then we miss too many targets and they didn't.
We fail to often at doing the little things, our kids play like kids, they often dispose of the ball then watch momentarily instead of placing a block on opponent or pushing to re-joining the chain of disposals. Oddly, this is starkly highlighted by a 1st year in Walsh, a player who does the right thing every time and highlights the deficiencies of the others. But I note the coach says Walsh is free to play as a newbie, are the others over-coached? The worry is, there are some pretty senior heads who frequently fail to do the right thing.
Even more oddly our F50 looks not too far off being OK as well. In the absence of Charlie I expected the talls to be ordinary having been just average even with Charlie in place. But in fact Charlie's absence seems to have made things better in that they were not getting in each others way. Just as on the day Charlie got injured we looked better, when McGovern went off with hamstring tightness we looked better! Big questions need to asked. In context of this, our single ruck policy isn't working, when McGovern went off moving McKay out of F50 is robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Levi didn't have a bad game, he didn't clunk enough marks but he presented well, and as I want he crunched some packs in a way a 200cm x 100kg KPF should. Those actions are enabling McKay to mark, it makes defenders hesitant even if Levi himself doesn't get a result. He wasn't good value in the ruck, in Lobbe's absence whether it be McKay or Levi we basically surrendered the ruck. One problem we have is our young midfield doesn't rove well to the dominant opposition ruck.
Lobbe wasn't bad at stoppages, but was clearly below form and/or fitness and as a result not influential around the ground. If he had been as aggressive as Levi, again even if it had not direct benefit, things might have been different. Sinclair had significant influence due to his physical presence, we did little to curb that influence. Yet I feel we cannot and should not rush SpecialK back. The return of a fit SpecialK might be as influential to our mens team as was the return of Davey to the girls. It could make the second half of this season very interesting!
SPS, Dow, Walsh, Setterfield were all quite good in that they won their fair share of contests, in fact if they had used the ball better we probably would have won the contest. The only concern I have is that they won't find any opponents slower than the Swans, although I concede the Swans are ultra-professional and nearly always do the right thing, the little things.
I don't know how any of the posters here that used to crap on Malthouse's gameplan can defend this crape we have been dishing up for the last 2 or 3 years.
I was excited to get Bolton and what he could bring from Hawthorn but looks like we missed the boat as the better assistants (Simpson and Cameron) were snapped up earlier.
The no contract thing that turned Dew off has really f%^&ed us.
I don't know how any of the posters here that used to crap on Malthouse's gameplan can defend this crape we have been dishing up for the last 2 or 3 years.
I was excited to get Bolton and what he could bring from Hawthorn but looks like we missed the boat as the better assistants (Simpson and Cameron) were snapped up earlier.
The no contract thing that turned Dew off has really f%^&ed us.
So you reckon Bolton is the runt of the Clarkson litter ?
I walked away from that game with the same sense of foreboding I have felt around Easter time for the last 5 years. We are staring down the barrel of another bottom 4 finish - for the 5th year in a row!! I'm losing faith in BB and my 9yo son has all but given up supporting the club because he can't take being beaten almost every week.
We talk about how some individuals improved, and obviously they have. But at the same time an even larger group have stagnated or gone backwards [or are proving to be not up to the level in the first place]. But more worryingly, our basic game plan, tactics and ability to score points remains incredibly poor and shows no signs whatsoever to my eyes of improving at all.
Our senior players need to be hard, uncompromising types who make good decisions and set the tone for the younger players to follow. Murphy, Thomas and [to a lesser extent Simmo] aren't that type of player. We have one star and bunch of kids and you are never going to be a force with a set up like we have.
We handed that game to the Swans on platter - let Mills & Lloyd run around half back and pick up possessions under no pressure. Cripps v Kennedy was always likely to be a draw, so the real impact was how the respective second midfielders fared - Jones comprehensively took the points over Dow. We play Lobbe and Cas against one of the fittest rucks in the comp and got smashed again. Heeney v Plowman is a match made in heaven for Heeney and he won easily.
As soon as any team locks down on us and turns up pressure we go to water time and time again. Every team knows it - we are ok when the game is a shoot out but as soon as a opposition coach turns the screws we fumble and go into our shell.
And don't get me started on our forward line. 3 games in and we are track to score 1500/1600 points for the season which will all but guarantee a bottom 4 finish. We haven't had a AFL capable forward line since we had Betts and Waite. Harry is coming along nicely, but with such little support in terms of small forward goal kicking capability it isn't enough to kick a winning score. Ed Curnow kicking 4 goals shows just dysfunctional our forward line really is!
So you reckon Bolton is the runt of the Clarkson litter ?
Probably not.
IMHO, we could have taken the best of the lot and turned them into poo (im yet to see evidence to say we havent), because that's the Carlton coaching vortex. Chews them up, and spits them out with their career in tatters.
This is why we didnt get Dew.
We can't afford to sack Bolton. We won't attract another decent coach for the next 20 years, will alienate half the playing group, will polarise the supporter base (again), will divide the boardroom (again) and we will become the Tassie Blues quicker than you can say tanking.
Needless to say, some dimwit like Mathieson will come along, appoint Ross Lyon at the end of next season (or worse still, James Hird because we wont appoint Ratten again) and then we will sit there and wonder what may have been again as our aging stars get pushed out the door to try and get in the next elite draft picks for us to turn into spuds.
Those are fair points Thry.
We’ve been patient and trusting. In fact trusting to a Herculean level. And we’ve made progress, the CFC is now a world leader in how to lose really, really well. It’s not a catastrophe, yet.
From my understanding it was a commitment from the club, based on surveying us, that we wanted no quick fixes and no more blowouts.
Well, the club and senior coach have delivered on that. The ‘old Carlton’ would have sent BB, and others, packing long ago. We stayed the course for the first 2 years, with stoic persistence and moved the club away from way too many massive losses. These high number of blowouts are sure a thing of the past.
But…
We are now faced with a massive problem. We do not know how to win. We’ve got the blokes to win games, of that I am certain. Many sides have achieved a lot more with much less.
The problem is that a mind-set of avoiding huge defeats, is now ingrained in our club. It’s now the culture. Conservative, safe coaching is the norm.
Our players are now delivering exactly what they been trained to do over the past 3 years… avoid a bad loss. That’s their focus. That’s our focus. And it’s rock solid.
But when it came time to change that focus, realising we had to start kicking winning scores, to be more offensive, we seem to have found ourselves stuck in the initial mental conditioning/programming. Remember the start of last year? We announced over the summer of ‘17/’18 that we were adding an ‘offensive layer’. Lasted about 15 minutes into the 2018 season, then as soon as bona fide pressure was applied to our blokes, we ‘reverted to type.’ And we are still to this day, ‘reverting to type’ when pressure is applied. We do not know how to win, but we do know how to avoid a blowout, and this is BBs very obvious strength.
We need someone else to help transition the players to a winning mind-set. Not a Messiah, just someone who understands how to develop a winning mind-set in a sporting club.
To ask BB to suddenly become a very different senior coach/person with a different message is an horrendously difficult transition, not to mention whether the players will buy it. Looks like they’re not (as I assume he’s trying just that, now). And how could they? Some will (looks like Ed bought it big time), but most won’t. Do we want Walsh to have a safe/conservative mind-set?
What makes suggesting the need for strong change in coaching approach/style all the more difficult is that saying anything apparently negative about BB is like shooting Bambi. The bloke is so likeable, affable, bubbly… even sweet, so how dare you, Baggers, suggest he’s not the bloke for 2020 onward!!?? Doe like eyes, a smile that lights up the room… sheesh, even the media is going easy on him, cutting him way more slack than just about anyone else.
We probably made a rod for our backs with the initial brief to BB, which he delivered on, in spades, in the first 2 years… but he couldn’t change the course of the ship… stick to the coast, avoid rough seas (to use my former RAN life speak).
Arguments around ‘too many kids’ don’t cut it. Plenty of sides have an imbalance of kids and still find ways to win, ways to kick more than 100 pts. We definitely looked good enough to win our first 3 games this year, we just don’t know how to win.
Even when this side achieves perfect cohesion, it’ll only deliver brave, spirited, honourable losses week in week out (sound familiar?). Sure we’ll win a few games, but only against opposition in really bad form.
Wonder if anyone in the media will have the macaroons to ask hard questions about where our rebuild sits at this very minute. I bet the club expected us to be way better now than we presently are – equal bottom and with an uncanny ability to get into winning positions then sabotage it. If we stay this course for much longer we will run aground.
Cripps is 24, if we are still floundering around when he is 26-27 can we keep him? or will he look for the big retirement contract and a premiership contender club...same with some of our other kids.
Its fine sticking with Bolton but will our top kids who wont stay kids for ever stick with us when the big dollars come looking for them if we are still a basket case?
When is the cutoff point, the line in the sand...5 years? We need an injection of a some real star material like a Conliglio, Kelly etc to be a catalyst, how can you attract that with bottom 4 results?
Sooner or later the club will have to set a bar for Bolton to reach and make a decision, we just cant keep drifting along doing the same thing every year, achieving the same results, getting another No 1 or 2 draft pick and being annual rebuilders.
Falling in just and getting the points vs rubbish like Gold Coast wont change anything either unless we win by plenty and kick 100 points....it will be just another false dawn
that appeases a few for a another short period of time until we run up against another easybeat team and do similar and end up with 3-4 wins at seasons end.
We need some new inspiration from the coaching box and a Hodge like on field elder statesman to turn the ship around. If Doc does not come back we need to look elsewhere. Perhaps that search should already have started.
We need some new inspiration from the coaching box and a Hodge like on field elder statesman to turn the ship around. If Doc does not come back we need to look elsewhere. Perhaps that search should already have started.
There is some irony in today's AFL discussions, with Robinson setting the tone for the Lions! it seems the biggest change in Robinson's game has been the assessment of it!
I can't let this go, we need to do more than play nice to win! It's nothing to do with who is captain, and making Cripps No.1 has done nothing for us because he was already doing all that he could.
As supporters we've watched Cripps for years and knew exactly what he was doing, now in 2019 the media are telling us we should be happy going forward because of how good he is, really! There is nothing more Cripps can give, we'll break him like we broke Judd, and then they will tell us we were unlucky!
btw., Did any of you notice the tete-a-tete between sMurph, Simmo and Cripps late in the game last weekend?
EB I made the same point in one of these threads last year about Cripps. If his current contract takes him to the free agency stage and he's been getting smashed from pillar to post week after week and we're still winning 3-5 games/season, no one in their right mind would condemn him for leaving the club and coming back to WA where his family are and playing for someone like West Coast who are in the flag window....he would've more than earned the payday and the chance to be a part of a premiership.
Like most, I was rapt when BB was appointed coach and at the youthful enthusiasm he brought to the table. But if we finish bottom again this year (and give up the number 1 draft pick) then there is absolutely no way he can stay on as coach...it's pretty cut throat but he'd be aware of that.
Your reply comment to my initial comment summed it up....after years of recruiting young guns with high end draft picks and trades....we still don't have anyone with elite kicking skills! How is that possible? That's not the coaches fault but if a young player has shortfalls in kicking skills, you don't just keep on recruiting those types surely?
Minor point...and I don't want to crucify him because just because I didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
But did anyone see Buddy shake Jones's hand after the game?
From the TV as the siren went they were in a contest that left Jones on his haunches and Buddy just walked away.
Jones had a funny look as he watched him go.
In the post match interview Buddy did give Jones some faint praise however King said to him as the interview concluded "I'll let you go and shake Liam Jones's hand"....which made me think it didn't happen....and was noticed.
Yes, I noticed the first part, I'd turned off by the time of the interview.
As an aside, most likely Cripps will be the only Carlton player getting an AFLCA vote. Cripps was the only Carlton player to get an AFLCA vote in the first two rounds, I wonder if this has ever happened before, even back in Judd times?
Many media scribes have Cripps BoG again in the losing team, he's becoming the new Robert Harvey!
Watching the tape.....Heeney gets a golden run. Pushes blokes out... No free.... Touch him it's a free. He's a F+*,ing Bilby that bloke.
The two goals that Buddy kicked were rotten calls as well. He gets frees based on reputation...he's buddy and his opponent is a no name (Jones) who doesn't count.
Shouldn't have expected any different, Swans got stiffed last week, can't have that two weeks in a row.
Problem I have is McKay gets blocked or held and they just ignore it.
AMEN.....
It was so funny listening to the commentators try to justify the Buddy 2 hand shove in the back of Jones "well, he didnt really extend his hands too far... " "he didnt mean it" "he had his fingers crossed"
An the McKay stuff is spot on. As soon as he started to take a few grabs, bang, Swans plowing into him left and right, including taking his legs from him as he starts to jump. When Sinclair went off with the broken nose - that was a direct result of a Swans player taking his eyes off the ball and hitting the pack head first, in a marking contest, as 1 of 4 Swans trying to maim McKay, he just missed and got his own player. McKay got one chopping the arms, when it (or a tunnel, or a block off the ball) happens EVERY time............. hoepfully in a few years, when he is more of a name, he will get a few
AMEN.....
It was so funny listening to the commentators try to justify the Buddy 2 hand shove in the back of Jones "well, he didnt really extend his hands too far... " "he didnt mean it" "he had his fingers crossed"
An the McKay stuff is spot on. As soon as he started to take a few grabs, bang, Swans plowing into him left and right, including taking his legs from him as he starts to jump. When Sinclair went off with the broken nose - that was a direct result of a Swans player taking his eyes off the ball and hitting the pack head first, in a marking contest, as 1 of 4 Swans trying to maim McKay, he just missed and got his own player. McKay got one chopping the arms, when it (or a tunnel, or a block off the ball) happens EVERY time............. hoepfully in a few years, when he is more of a name, he will get a few
That Buddy push was a shocker....no question there are two sets of rules. The umps helped them considerably (the age old AFL directive?)
The more I think about it the result wasn't a shocker - the Swans did play well - all their experienced heads TURNED UP.
Our experienced (older) heads were largely ineffectual - as usual. Will we ever see Murph swing a game or even be BOG - or close - again?
Won't see Ed kick 4 again in my lifetime. Why he isn't playing as a stopper bewilders me!
We blundered at the selection table AGAIN. Picked too many kids....Polson/LOB.
EB I made the same point in one of these threads last year about Cripps. If his current contract takes him to the free agency stage and he's been getting smashed from pillar to post week after week and we're still winning 3-5 games/season, no one in their right mind would condemn him for leaving the club and coming back to WA where his family are and playing for someone like West Coast who are in the flag window....he would've more than earned the payday and the chance to be a part of a premiership.
Like most, I was rapt when BB was appointed coach and at the youthful enthusiasm he brought to the table. But if we finish bottom again this year (and give up the number 1 draft pick) then there is absolutely no way he can stay on as coach...it's pretty cut throat but he'd be aware of that.
Your reply comment to my initial comment summed it up....after years of recruiting young guns with high end draft picks and trades....we still don't have anyone with elite kicking skills! How is that possible? That's not the coaches fault but if a young player has shortfalls in kicking skills, you don't just keep on recruiting those types surely?
Surfie...we need a young Pendlebury who has some real class and can give us some silk after Cripps has done the hard work in the middle.....same down forward, we need that Robbie Gray type who can kick a bag of five and give us some class to support our talls who are talented and are the real deal...
Surfie...we need a young Pendlebury who has some real class and can give us some silk after Cripps has done the hard work in the middle.....same down forward, we need that Robbie Gray type who can kick a bag of five and give us some class to support our talls who are talented and are the real deal...
Setterfield can be anything but we need to be patient....
Until we see what Pickett can bring, I'd love to see SPS forward more - he is one (like Pendles) who makes time stand still. And what of the luckiest man on the list, KymLeBois?!
Kennedy too has much potential as a forward imo. Hard at it, not slow (despite what some say - he was never in shape last year) and reads the play very well.
The simmering anger I've got is the useless summer training to drill in the basics of kicking until they get it right. There are NO excuses for that and Bolton's gotta wear all of that. You can't kick? You don't play. Hard intra club and drills until it's perfected
Say what you want about Malthouse, but he knew the pies were weak thru the centre so he enforced the boundary line approach and damn well honed it to the point of brilliance within inches of the chalk from half back to half forward to cover the positional shortfalls
I am not enthused with Bolton at all.
Say what you want about Malthouse, but he knew the pies were weak thru the centre so he enforced the boundary line approach and damn well honed it to the point of brilliance within inches of the chalk from half back to half forward to cover the positional shortfalls
Statistically we had a dominant midfield, despite struggling for wins we were right near the top of the tables for clearances and center breaks, yet MM applied the same handbrake game style that he'd applied at the Filth! :o
MM saw the boundary line arm-wrestle as the way to win finals, yet ironically he didn't win that many and when he did it was off the back of significant running power from guys like Daisy, Swan, Ball, Pendlebury, Didak, Matera, Mainwaring, Heady or Lewis!
It wasn't a bad game plan, but after a decade or more of being picked apart by opposition the chances of further success using it was at best slim.
The simmering anger I've got is the useless summer training to drill in the basics of kicking until they get it right. There are NO excuses for that and Bolton's gotta wear all of that. You can't kick? You don't play. Hard intra club and drills until it's perfected
I am not enthused with Bolton at all.
I'm not sure the skills issue has much to do with a senior coach at AFL level, but he does need to wear the tactical criticism.
Statistically we had a dominant midfield, despite struggling for wins we were right near the top of the tables for clearances and center breaks, yet MM applied the same handbrake game style that he'd applied at the Filth! :o
MM saw the boundary line arm-wrestle as the way to win finals, yet ironically he didn't win that many and when he did it was off the back of significant running power from guys like Daisy, Swan, Ball, Pendlebury, Didak, Matera, Mainwaring, Heady or Lewis!
It wasn't a bad game plan, but after a decade or more of being picked apart by opposition the chances of further success using it was at best slim.
I'm not sure the skills issue has much to do with a senior coach at AFL level, but he does need to wear the tactical criticism.
Didn't win that many finals? He holds the record lol.
Didn't win that many finals? He holds the record lol.
How many finals?
How many finals?
27 off the top of my head.
27 off the top of my head.
Yes, 52 finals coached, 27W, 23L, 2D.
27 off the top of my head.
He's coached more games than any other, but he isn't in the top dozen for premierships despite holding the record for most finals coached. That must leave him with one of the worst strike rates over the longest coaching career ever! Just looking at the total and ignoring the efficiency seems a little deceptive!
Perhaps his best trick was staying in the job with a game plan that gave you an otherwise minimal chance of ultimate success!
The numbers are a clear tell, more games, more finals, but less ultimate success per number of games played.
Lets put this another way, if MM had been coaching us through the 70s to the same statistical success level we would have won just a one and a bit flags!
A mate who is into car racing put it best, MM is the Alan Moffatt of VFL/AFL, some who is there at every race meeting so he's got a chance!
He's coached more games than any other, but he isn't in the top dozen for premierships despite holding the record for most finals coached. That must leave him with one of the worst strike rates over the longest coaching career ever! Just looking at the total and ignoring the efficiency seems a little deceptive!
Perhaps his best trick was staying in the job with a game plan that gave you an otherwise minimal chance of ultimate success!
The numbers are a clear tell, more games, more finals, but less ultimate success per number of games played.
Lets put this another way, if MM had been coaching us through the 70s to the same statistical success level we would have won just a one and a bit flags!
You're talking horse crap now.
You're talking horse crap now.
The numbers are all that count, opinion is the horse crap!
MM wasn't always a spud, but he was by the time he arrived at Carlton, that's just the way it is! MM was just as big of a spud when he arrived as Elliott was towards the end of his lingering Presidency! They did great things, back in the day in those circumstances.
EB...agree on the drafting of quality users of the ball but have we missed the boat in the last 4 drafts? In 2015 we went for talls in Weitering, McKay, Curnow and then Cunningham with the last pick in the first 20. In 2016 it was SPS and Fisher (then Polson). In 2017 it was Dow and O'Brien. Walsh was the unanimous pick as number 1 last year but if there was a knock on him, it was his finishing.
I still get frustrated with blowing pick 10 on O'Brien. I had the misfortune to attend the game against Brisbane last year at the Gabba and I lost count of the number of times he kicked it STRAIGHT to an opponent. He did much the same on the weekend apart from one pass that hit Casboult. The club had it's eyes on Tim Kelly but he was gone by the time our next pick came....hindsight is wonderful in AFL Drafts but he was one we missed (along with a few other clubs) badly.
As an aside, talked about top-up players prior to this season and in a number of posts I said the club should be looking at Jye Bolton from Claremont.....first weekend of WAFL games just gone and another BOG for Claremont. I'd be staggered if he's not picked up as part of this supplemental/mid-season draft.
EB...agree on the drafting of quality users of the ball but have we missed the boat in the last 4 drafts? In 2015 we went for talls in Weitering, McKay, Curnow and then Cunningham with the last pick in the first 20. In 2016 it was SPS and Fisher (then Polson). In 2017 it was Dow and O'Brien. Walsh was the unanimous pick as number 1 last year but if there was a knock on him, it was his finishing.
I still get frustrated with blowing pick 10 on O'Brien. I had the misfortune to attend the game against Brisbane last year at the Gabba and I lost count of the number of times he kicked it STRAIGHT to an opponent. He did much the same on the weekend apart from one pass that hit Casboult. The club had it's eyes on Tim Kelly but he was gone by the time our next pick came....hindsight is wonderful in AFL Drafts but he was one we missed (along with a few other clubs) badly.
As an aside, talked about top-up players prior to this season and in a number of posts I said the club should be looking at Jye Bolton from Claremont.....first weekend of WAFL games just gone and another BOG for Claremont. I'd be staggered if he's not picked up as part of this supplemental/mid-season draft.
It's not that simple, Kelly has guys like Hawkins, Ablett Jnr and Dangerfield playing forward and running in good patterns to the right positions. It makes space which makes the target easier to hit without a kick being intercepted. Our KPFs just aren't doing our mids any favors, which means in our team you have to be better than average by foot just to get an average result.
One example of this is McKay and Casboult closing up space at the weekend by pressing too far up the field and leaving all the free space behind them! So what happens, the mids kick the ball long to free space but the Swans defenders are first back onto the ball! It makes the mid look bad, but if the KPF has closed up the space in front of him that will happen 90% of the time! Look at the flip side, start McKay or Casboult back and the mid drops the ball in the space in front of them and the KPF then gets a run at a contested mark, it's that simple.
So why doesn't it happen, McKay and Casboult didn't work hard enough, on their 2nd or 3rd efforts they often defaulted to shallow runs and so no space is created in front of them. They have to run deeper on those repeat leads and that will spread defenders and create space.
EB...agree on the drafting of quality users of the ball but have we missed the boat in the last 4 drafts? In 2015 we went for talls in Weitering, McKay, Curnow and then Cunningham with the last pick in the first 20. In 2016 it was SPS and Fisher (then Polson). In 2017 it was Dow and O'Brien. Walsh was the unanimous pick as number 1 last year but if there was a knock on him, it was his finishing.
I still get frustrated with blowing pick 10 on O'Brien. I had the misfortune to attend the game against Brisbane last year at the Gabba and I lost count of the number of times he kicked it STRAIGHT to an opponent. He did much the same on the weekend apart from one pass that hit Casboult. The club had it's eyes on Tim Kelly but he was gone by the time our next pick came....hindsight is wonderful in AFL Drafts but he was one we missed (along with a few other clubs) badly.
As an aside, talked about top-up players prior to this season and in a number of posts I said the club should be looking at Jye Bolton from Claremont.....first weekend of WAFL games just gone and another BOG for Claremont. I'd be staggered if he's not picked up as part of this supplemental/mid-season draft.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. O'Brien vs Kelly can't be judged right now - not by a long long way.
O'Brien looks to be in the middle of some pretty solid second year blues. His running ability is elite and his ball use is generally pretty good. He's light though and will take some time.
And lacks intensity at the contest and lacking when it gets physical.
Jeza...second year blues implies a pretty good first year and I wouldn't have said his debut year was that good. My point is that we seem to be recruiting blokes who can't kick properly. We seem to get slaughtered when we turn it over...which happens a lot.
There's no easy answers and I appreciate that, but like most, the frustration seems to be just never ending and we are almost totally reliant on Cripps at the moment and that's not healthy for him or the team. Even Nic Newman...I was rapt to get him in as I thought his long, penetrating kicking would be handy...but even his disposal is all over the shop. I know we miss Williamson but the fact is he's played about 15 games all up and we don't have anyone in the backline who you'd back in to run with it and hit a target up the field. Then we have midfielders who can't hit a target.
Jeza...second year blues implies a pretty good first year and I wouldn't have said his debut year was that good. My point is that we seem to be recruiting blokes who can't kick properly. We seem to get slaughtered when we turn it over...which happens a lot.
There's no easy answers and I appreciate that, but like most, the frustration seems to be just never ending and we are almost totally reliant on Cripps at the moment and that's not healthy for him or the team. Even Nic Newman...I was rapt to get him in as I thought his long, penetrating kicking would be handy...but even his disposal is all over the shop. I know we miss Williamson but the fact is he's played about 15 games all up and we don't have anyone in the backline who you'd back in to run with it and hit a target up the field. Then we have midfielders who can't hit a target.
+1
Although, there is merit in what LP is saying. How can you judge how well blokes hit targets by foot, when the only options they have are difficult ones, and more often than not they are put under extreme pressure from the receive??
We have been cooking teamates all season with poor choices of disposal which simply creates a chain of crappy disposals. How many times has anyone stated we chose the right option there?? I think I saw one occasion where Cripps pulled his kick short which resulted in a kick to a leading forward on saturday. Beyond that, it was always to contests, or on top of someones head forcing them to take a contest or halve a contest.
Hmm, I think the contrast is this, and I hate to write this because I can't stand KPPs who stage for free kicks, Jack Riewoldt.
McKay, Casboult and McGovern fans need to watch Jack Riewoldt work as a contrast, I also think he is miles ahead of his cousin as an effective KPF.
Jack Reiwoldt works deep repeat leads, often back across the top of the square then hard up at the ball carrier through the guts or out to the HFF. If he doesn't get the ball kicked to him he doesn't fold back dragging defenders with him, he keeps going and arcs across the contest outside F50 leaving and creating space for Nthmond's small forwards to work in. He also often sets up to be in the zone to mark the escape kick. I think he's even ahead of Franklin in this regard, Buddy tends to trail back into the contest, but of course Buddy can because he's also effective as a crumbing forward.
I'd thought that tete-a-tete between Simmo, Cripps and sMurph in the last quarter was related to Cripps not being like Riewoldt. Luckily Ed got a 50m penalty and the chance of the Swans running a missed scoring attempt out of our F50 evaporated. But Simmo and sMuprh were into Cripps and Setterfield to get across to the flanks and get the zones setup early in case Ed missed. They were driving the effort to lock the ball inside our F50 if a goal wasn't scored.
FMD, some Carlton players other than Cripps polled an AFLCA vote!
Jeza...second year blues implies a pretty good first year and I wouldn't have said his debut year was that good. My point is that we seem to be recruiting blokes who can't kick properly. We seem to get slaughtered when we turn it over...which happens a lot.
There's no easy answers and I appreciate that, but like most, the frustration seems to be just never ending and we are almost totally reliant on Cripps at the moment and that's not healthy for him or the team. Even Nic Newman...I was rapt to get him in as I thought his long, penetrating kicking would be handy...but even his disposal is all over the shop. I know we miss Williamson but the fact is he's played about 15 games all up and we don't have anyone in the backline who you'd back in to run with it and hit a target up the field. Then we have midfielders who can't hit a target.
I reckon you're selling him short.
OK - you disagree but don't state it like it's fact that 2018 was a rubbish year for O'Brien's. It was actually pretty good by the finish when he'd gone past Dow - I thought anyway. Had 20 and 22 disposals in those last 2 games (and used the ball really well) for a young guy with a light body in a putrid team that is a sensational effort.
I was glad to see him playing 2s this year though as I do wish some of these very light-framed kids got a lot more time to develop off-Broadway before being thrown to the hungry pack of wolves that is our supporter base.
I reckon you're selling him short.
OK - you disagree but don't state it like it's fact that 2018 was a rubbish year for O'Brien's. It was actually pretty good by the finish when he'd gone past Dow - I thought anyway. Had 20 and 22 disposals in those last 2 games (and used the ball really well) for a young guy with a light body in a putrid team that is a sensational effort.
I was glad to see him playing 2s this year though as I do wish some of these very light-framed kids got a lot more time to develop off-Broadway before being thrown to the hungry pack of wolves that is our supporter base.
Hmmm.
O Brien was less than convincing in year 1. The question marks over his selection appeared last season, and they remain this season. I think calling it second year blues is being generous and agree with WAsurfer that it implies his first year was at least goodish to use some slang english.
I was unconvinced by him last year, and remain so this year. Sure, they might be second year blues, but he is the category of never was rather than has been.
We had a bloke named Kane Lucas on our list once. This appears to be history repeating.
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/K/Kane_Lucas.html
Like you though, Im willing to give him some time. The expectations on these youngsters is astronomical sometimes, but in this case the issue isnt his performance its the lack of promise in the performances.
The expectations on these youngsters is astronomical sometimes
On that point we are in 100% agreement.
18 years old weighing 70-something kilos playing in an abject misery of a team and we're going the glass is half empty!
I don't know how well you remember those last 2 games of his last year but I think he's being sold short. There was 1 other game which he was really good - maybe Hawthorn I think. It's a bloody good achievement for a kid and full credit to him.
He was pretty rubbish against the Swans but he'll bounce back from that.
I'm not a real fan of OBrien as yet but we need to keep playing him given the investment was high(pick 10), he needs to get a lot of ball and use it well to compensate for his lack of contesting and physicality. I take the point that not all players can be Patrick Cripps in terms of hunting the ball but the smaller Zac Fisher shows more intensity.
Swans with their contested rolling scrum style probably wasnt the ideal team for Obrien to return against...Gold Coast who play a more open running game like Port
should suit him better. I think he needs to gain a yard in pace too....his style at senior level requires more speed IMO and I want to see him carrying the ball more.
So roughly the same as our spoon years under Pagan?
Things can only get better I guess.
It looks bad if you look at it like that, but thats without any wins.
Lets say this week we have a win against Gold Coast. A modest scoreline of 87 - 70.
Our % would jump to 85.5%.
If we had a day out and had a 100-60 scoreling, our % jumps to 91.7%
Lets say we have another 'honourable loss', go down 70-80...our % still jumps, 78.2%
We simply are not THAT BAD, especially considering we've played 2 top 6 sides from last year already.
I'm not a real fan of OBrien as yet but we need to keep playing him given the investment was high(pick 10), he needs to get a lot of ball and use it well to compensate for his lack of contesting and physicality. I take the point that not all players can be Patrick Cripps in terms of hunting the ball but the smaller Zac Fisher shows more intensity.
Swans with their contested rolling scrum style probably wasnt the ideal team for Obrien to return against...Gold Coast who play a more open running game like Port
should suit him better. I think he needs to gain a yard in pace too....his style at senior level requires more speed IMO and I want to see him carrying the ball more.
It was sheer stupidity to pick him against the Swans....
Agreed fly...made that point last week before the game that going in without any support for Cripps was crazy. Would love to know the reasoning behind the non-selection of Kennedy given his VFL form the week before...similary with Silvagni. Neither of them are quick which I think we all agree on, but against Sydney it appeared like a logical selection?
I'm just hoping we can lift ourselves up a few rungs otherwise it's gonna be mighty embarrassing handing that pick one in the draft to Adelaide...even though they're not travelling that well either at the minute.
It was sheer stupidity to pick him against the Swans....
I said the same in the pre-match.
I said the same in the pre-match.
Possibly a team balance issue, trying to offset the heavier bigger bodies with some outside run and carry ? Just a thought.
It was sheer stupidity to pick him against the Swans....
Kennedy a contested player is BOG in the NB's and we pick Obrien who lacks in that area...its like calling an electrician to fix a sewer blockage.
We just make it tough for ourselves.....we dont get the basics right often enough.
Possibly a team balance issue, trying to offset the heavier bigger bodies with some outside run and carry ? Just a thought.
Team balance issue? THe only issue with team balance occured once we heard the ins and outs!
As others have raised, there appears a recurring theme with the ruck - the opposition ruckman, even if a relative no name, is just about best afield against us.
Why?
Team balance issue? THe only issue with team balance occured once we heard the ins and outs!
I guess the point I was making is that the MC may have had an each way bet. Leave out LoB, and bring in Kennedy and possibly also Jack Silvagni, and it looks bigger, but also slower, possibly too slow. My observations are that we competed very well around the contest, and apart from goal kicking, we lost to a more experienced, harder team with better synergy and better skills. And I'm not sure how Kennedy and/or JS would have helped.
I guess the point I was making is that the MC may have had an each way bet. Leave out LoB, and bring in Kennedy and possibly also Jack Silvagni, and it looks bigger, but also slower, possibly too slow. My observations are that we competed very well around the contest, and apart from goal kicking, we lost to a more experienced, harder team with better synergy and better skills. And I'm not sure how Kennedy and/or JS would have helped.
Kennedy is not slow. And this year he's fit.....
And he wins the ball. LOB (granted still a kid) is miles off that....
Kennedy is not slow. And this year he's fit.....
And he wins the ball. LOB (granted still a kid) is miles off that....
Well, I don't really want to get into an argument about what constitutes "slow", but I consider him to be slow. And I know he wins the ball, but as I suggested, we don't really have a problem with winning the ball.
Well, I don't really want to get into an argument about what constitutes "slow", but I consider him to be slow. And I know he wins the ball, but as I suggested, we don't really have a problem with winning the ball.
And he's a mature body and he's hard at it, and he can go forward, take a mark and kick a goal.
LOB - nope.
On that point we are in 100% agreement.
18 years old weighing 70-something kilos playing in an abject misery of a team and we're going the glass is half empty!
I don't know how well you remember those last 2 games of his last year but I think he's being sold short. There was 1 other game which he was really good - maybe Hawthorn I think. It's a bloody good achievement for a kid and full credit to him.
He was pretty rubbish against the Swans but he'll bounce back from that.
I'll give him a chance but I remember being more excited by kane Lucas.
I have yet to see "it" with o brien.
He's the one player I'm most worried about out of all our draftees.
Polson shows a competitive instinct.
Fisher is perhaps the best of the lot.
Sps is silky.
Dow has wow factor.
Weitering is reliable and shows class.
Curnow has x factor.
McKay has shown he can influence games and moves extremely well for a big man.
Kerr is a bit old school but kicks it well, is competitive in the air, but is a bit old school.
Jack silvagni shows a competitive edge, and seems clever despite his limitations.
Cunningham is clean and knows where the goals are.
Walsh is the most complete player we've drafted.
O brien worries me. I've yet to see "it".
What he said.
O'Brien and Dow are a bit timid just yet, they're not naturally aggressive and it will take them a few years to get comfortable.
They both have good skills and good aerobic capacity, they'll be good players.
I concede the Swans are ultra-professional and nearly always do the right thing, the little things.
I think that’s the key LP; we’re a long way off always doing the right thing. That won’t matter too much against other developing teams but will hurt us when we play top eight contenders.
I suspect we won’t start doing the right thing consistently until we start stringing wins together, and I think that it will be the wins that encourage the right things rather than the other way around.
O'Brien and Dow are a bit timid just yet, they're not naturally aggressive and it will take them a few years to get comfortable.
They both have good skills and good aerobic capacity, they'll be good players.
I tend to agree.
I'll give him a chance but I remember being more excited by kane Lucas.
I have yet to see "it" with o brien.
He's the one player I'm most worried about out of all our draftees.
Polson shows a competitive instinct.
Fisher is perhaps the best of the lot.
Sps is silky.
Dow has wow factor.
Weitering is reliable and shows class.
Curnow has x factor.
McKay has shown he can influence games and moves extremely well for a big man.
Kerr is a bit old school but kicks it well, is competitive in the air, but is a bit old school.
Jack silvagni shows a competitive edge, and seems clever despite his limitations.
Cunningham is clean and knows where the goals are.
Walsh is the most complete player we've drafted.
O brien worries me. I've yet to see "it".
Impossible to argue with your point about him not showing "it".
Agree to disagree. It takes a bit of imagination as he's so light but he has to build an AFL ready body before any judgement can be even slightly credible but guys that can run and kick like O'Brien don't come along very often.
re obrien...
There was one bit of play in either the 3rd or 4th quarter where i saw some bloke sprinting and dodging his way down the ground where i thought, gee, who is that bloke! Then i saw it was Obrien and i was pleasantly surprised.
Thats about as close to 'it' as i've seen from him thus far.
O'Brien and Dow are a bit timid just yet, they're not naturally aggressive and it will take them a few years to get comfortable.
They both have good skills and good aerobic capacity, they'll be good players.
I thought Dow had one of his worst game for the Club last Sat v Syd. He seemed to miss targets, goals and was generally messy with some of his disposals. But to his credit, he worked his ass off. He is a jet though and is entitled to an off game every now and then.
I thought Dow had one of his worst game for the Club last Sat v Syd. He seemed to miss targets, goals and was generally messy with some of his disposals. But to his credit, he worked his ass off. He is a jet though and is entitled to an off game every now and then.
He got off to a bad start with that shocking miss in the first few minutes and didn't really recover, his games against Richmond and Port were good.
He'll be a good player, possibly a very good player.
He got off to a bad start with that shocking miss in the first few minutes and didn't really recover, his games against Richmond and Port were good.
He'll be a good player, possibly a very good player.
No doubt about it B4L. Lets not forget, Crippa didnt set the world on fire early. Many said he was too fat, too slow etc etc. We all know how thats turned out.
The hardest thing for the kids to learn in sport is to let go of your mistakes, it's probably the biggest difference between a team full of experienced heads and newbies.
The newbies either go introspective or start finger-pointing and as a result lose focus, the old heads just rinse and repeat!
Out of our lot, seniors and kids, only Daisy seems to have mastered the art of getting on with it. sMurph and Simmo look a bit sulky at times, Jones loses his bundle and SpecialK gets shy!
But anyway, that's the job of the coaches, to get them all up and about at the same time!
I thought Dow had one of his worst game for the Club last Sat v Syd. He seemed to miss targets, goals and was generally messy with some of his disposals. But to his credit, he worked his ass off. He is a jet though and is entitled to an off game every now and then.
Dow's disposal was off, and from memory he got caught with the ball a few times.
He works very hard though, he gets into good positions and he tackles.
Reminds me so much of Judd... Even his kicking for goal is the same.
Dow's disposal was off, and from memory he got caught with the ball a few times.
He works very hard though, he gets into good positions and he tackles.
Reminds me so much of Judd... Even his kicking for goal is the same.
Disposal wise he was shocking but he'll work on that...
What WAS great was his sheer explosiveness - he burnt several Sydney players off (and not their old timers) easily....
The hardest thing for the kids to learn in sport is to let go of your mistakes, it's probably the biggest difference between a team full of experienced heads and newbies.
The newbies either go introspective or start finger-pointing and as a result lose focus, the old heads just rinse and repeat!
Out of our lot, seniors and kids, only Daisy seems to have mastered the art of getting on with it. sMurph and Simmo look a bit sulky at times, Jones loses his bundle and SpecialK gets shy!
But anyway, that's the job of the coaches, to get them all up and about at the same time!
Yes indeed.
I watched Cripps' first game, for the NBs, and he was horribly slow, and looked unfit. But he stood up in the last quarter, won vital clearances and took a big mark in the square to win the game. He dragged that team across the line. He clearly had "it", although he wasn't ready physically. The kid was clearly a footballer looking to develop athletic prowess. He knew where to go for a kick, and just how he hard to go to get it. He had footy smarts, understood the physicality required and spent his petrol tickets wisely.
Some of our kicks have had injuries which have stymied their physical development and game time, but I can't believe we'd draft spuds and lazy blokes in the first place. Given Walshs'gut running I don't see our kids lacking in that area. For some they just need time to develop the base, injuries haven't helped.
My worry with OBrien is he looks an athlete first and footballer second. Like so many kids he looks shocked by the speed and physicality of senior footy. So why hasn't he been given a grounding to redress this? I know that physicality and being an outside runner seem to be mutually exclusive, but it's not kiddie football, the reality is that it's a hard game and you need to be mentally and physically prepared for it.
I watched Cripps' first game, for the NBs, and he was horribly slow, and looked unfit. But he stood up in the last quarter, won vital clearances and took a big mark in the square to win the game. He dragged that team across the line. He clearly had "it", although he wasn't ready physically. The kid was clearly a footballer looking to develop athletic prowess. He knew where to go for a kick, and just how he hard to go to get it. He had footy smarts, understood the physicality required and spent his petrol tickets wisely.
Some of our kicks have had injuries which have stymied their physical development and game time, but I can't believe we'd draft spuds and lazy blokes in the first place. Given Walshs'gut running I don't see our kids lacking in that area. For some they just need time to develop the base, injuries haven't helped.
My worry with OBrien is he looks an athlete first and footballer second. Like so many kids he looks shocked by the speed and physicality of senior footy. So why hasn't he been given a grounding to redress this? I know that physicality and being an outside runner seem to be mutually exclusive, but it's not kiddie football, the reality is that it's a hard game and you need to be mentally and physically prepared for it.
So there is no debate - O'Brien should not have been playing senior footy last year and at 17 other clubs he wouldn't have gotten a game (most likely). But he clearly went past Dow last season and by the end of the year put in 2 exceptional performances that showed me why SOS drafted him.
No doubt about it B4L. Lets not forget, Crippa didnt set the world on fire early. Many said he was too fat, too slow etc etc. We all know how thats turned out.
It's not a worry if you're too fat and too slow when you're the best player in the comp.
I watched Cripps' first game, for the NBs, and he was horribly slow, and looked unfit.
It's one of the very facts that keep me buoyant about the future of JSoS.
Cripps is a clear indicator you can significantly improve acceleration and top speed through training, anyone who watched him go for a run down the wing last weekend knows that!
My worry with OBrien is he looks an athlete first and footballer second. Like so many kids he looks shocked by the speed and physicality of senior footy. So why hasn't he been given a grounding to redress this? I know that physicality and being an outside runner seem to be mutually exclusive, but it's not kiddie football, the reality is that it's a hard game and you need to be mentally and physically prepared for it.
If memory serves me correctly, many had the same knock on Josh Kelly early on. Not suggesting for a minute that he will turn out like JK, but given time, he may develop into a decent footballer.
So there is no debate - O'Brien should not have been playing senior footy last year and at 17 other clubs he wouldn't have gotten a game (most likely). But he clearly went past Dow last season and by the end of the year put in 2 exceptional performances that showed me why SOS drafted him.
I'm not sure about going past Paddy Dow. 2 exceptional performances?? He was ok. Not good, not bad, just ok. Its not about how much of what they do that is important in the formative years, its glimpses (because thats all we really see as a prelude to anything else).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p1l7yMe_iY
Paddy had a very almost game for a youngster. Kid almost made a big impact on a result of footy. The effort (and subsequent repeat efforts) at 3mins 40 (end of the 3/4) is what has got everyone excited about Paddy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdxTrKAzreQ
Got his rising star nomination against Collingwood.
At minimum, draftees can have a 4 year apprenticeship but at the moment, this is what we have for Lachie O'Brien in terms of a highlight reel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5RxyKnJFVU
His two games in rounds 22 and 23 were his best right?
Round 22 vs the Dogs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee6NAE-Isic
Round 23 game highlights vs the Crows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT3wA-Ka-WE
I get it. You are a fan, that's fine. FWIW, his best game was against the Gold Coast in round 19 when we won and its because he provided much more overlap run than he has been in the other games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcBHsWezdto
You see him providing options here that he just isnt doing in the other videos. Oh, Number 2 had a handy game in this one too...
If memory serves me correctly, many had the same knock on Josh Kelly early on. Not suggesting for a minute that he will turn out like JK, but given time, he may develop into a decent footballer.
What's the success rate for athletes turned into footballers, and is that somehow reflected in the other skills of the game?
Is this conversion concept the real reason no feckas can kick the football anymore?
I still don't get it - Kennedy was BOG the week before, massive pump up via video from Stanton, not picked.
LOB has a very so so game in the same game, and gets a jumper.
WTF?
(i note no mention anywhere that Kennedy was injured again)
Point is, you simply can't have 2 or 3 blokes on the park who are only going to touch it a handful of times....
What's the success rate for athletes turned into footballers, and is that somehow reflected in the other skills of the game?
Is this conversion concept the real reason no feckas can kick the football anymore?
The thing that goes against what you are saying re kicking is that the Irish imports have a reputation for being such great kicks.
The thing that goes against what you are saying re kicking is that the Irish imports have a reputation for being such great kicks.
But perhaps that is because they come from a round ball sport and are not strictly athletics types, the Gaelic footy players have an even narrower margin for error kicking the round ball or it just hoops away from the intended target.
I think when fans refer to converted athletes they are more focused on distance running, basketball, tri-athletes, soccer, rugby or other such sports. Sure Mason Cox is a natural advantage, but do you want him trying to hit leading targets, Blicavs is tall and aerobically gifted, but will he weave through traffic and hit the moving forward lace out?
Further, I don;t think it's fair to allocate guys like Pendlebury as a convert, yet some do! Guys that played junior football are not converts, they are reclamations!
The theory I’ve heard postulated regarding the Irish guys and even Cox is that they have never developed bad habits so they are basically learning the correct way to kick from day dot.
I don’t really know either way, I am really just regurgitating what I hear.
The theory I’ve heard postulated regarding the Irish guys and even Cox is that they have never developed bad habits so they are basically learning the correct way to kick from day dot.
I don’t really know either way, I am really just regurgitating what I hear.
The benefit is as you said, learning to kick without bad habits.
The down side is learning how to do everything that is basically instinct for everyone else playing the game.
Minor point...and I don't want to crucify him because just because I didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
But did anyone see Buddy shake Jones's hand after the game?
From the TV as the siren went they were in a contest that left Jones on his haunches and Buddy just walked away.
Jones had a funny look as he watched him go.
In the post match interview Buddy did give Jones some faint praise however King said to him as the interview concluded "I'll let you go and shake Liam Jones's hand"....which made me think it didn't happen....and was noticed.
I hope it's just a case of forgetting, rather than Buddy's bruised ego sooking it up because he got toweled up by someone he considers to be an inferior opponent. Maybe he thought he would simply show up and kick another bag ?
I hope it's just a case of forgetting, rather than Buddy's bruised ego sooking it up because he got toweled up by someone he considers to be an inferior opponent. Maybe he thought he would simply show up and kick another bag ?
Buddy sooked up IMO and chose to ignore him....or he tired himself out so much from whinging to the umps he didnt have the energy...
Buddy sooked up IMO and chose to ignore him........
I'd probably agree. Disappointing behaviour, especially towards a clean, mild mannered type like Jones. If Franklin had a skerrick of decency, he'd get in touch with Jones and apologise for behaving like a jerk.
I still don't get it - Kennedy was BOG the week before, massive pump up via video from Stanton, not picked.
LOB has a very so so game in the same game, and gets a jumper.
WTF?
(i note no mention anywhere that Kennedy was injured again)
Point is, you simply can't have 2 or 3 blokes on the park who are only going to touch it a handful of times....
Sarcastic tone:
BB: "We select blokes based on form." (right up there with, 'We'll be defined by our pressure...").
End of sarcastic tone.
And, you're not the only one who doesn't get it. O'Brien and Levi were also inspired selections... ***cough, splutter***
Sarcastic tone:
BB: "We select blokes based on form." (right up there with, 'We'll be defined by our pressure...").
End of sarcastic tone.
And, you're not the only one who doesn't get it. O'Brien and Levi were also inspired selections... ***cough, splutter***
Sorry you cant quote from Bolton's pressers..they are a no go zone, his cliches are copyright and not to be reproduced without the consent of the appropriate authorities on this
forum especially on Tuesdays and Thurdays when the team will be trained harder by the coach this week....
Can I just add that the boys have become too comfortable being uncomfortable??
????
Can I just add that the boys have become too comfortable being uncomfortable??
????
Funny but true, have we created a club full of masochists primed for failure?
Pavlov would have lots to study!
Interesting The Dees inspect recent Swans games and go with twin rucks!
Dees to defeat the Swans.
Can I just add that the boys have become too comfortable being uncomfortable??
????
:)) :)) :)) :)) good one, Three Leos.
My favourite from BB is, "We don't put a ceiling on what we can achieve." Generally after being asked if he thought we could make finals, or what we sought from the season.
Just about the most unaccountable, mumbo jumbo piece of cr@p statement I think he's ever come out with. Great for shutting people up... you can't argue against it. Clever, and suitably ambiguous. Sort of thing Trump would love. And just the sort of thing you'd hear chanted at a pyramid/multi-level marketing seminar!!!
The human brain loves a clearly stated goal/vision, one that unites all, followed by the incremental steps required to achieve stated goal/vision. I'd much prefer, "It's our goal to play finals this year and go deep into finals next year, a premiership within 4 years", (for arguments sake). The stated goals of the first two years of the rebuild were practical, realistic and relateable for the fans. Last year and this, well, just unaccountable, visionless garbage.
People laughed at the Tiggers a few years back when they publicly stated they would achieve 70,000 members... unheard of at the time. They had a vision. Bravo. Who's laughing now?
How about a clearly stated vision for this year, BB? Nothing vague (he loves the back door left open), something that is actually palpable, treats us with a little respect and assumes we might actually be capable of critical thinking. If we fall short, well, we're very forgiving... that's obvious, eh?
:)) :)) :)) :)) good one, Three Leos.
My favourite from BB is, "We don't put a ceiling on what we can achieve." Generally after being asked if he thought we could make finals, or what we sought from the season.
Just about the most unaccountable, mumbo jumbo piece of cr@p statement I think he's ever come out with. Great for shutting people up... you can't argue against it. Clever, and suitably ambiguous. Sort of thing Trump would love. And just the sort of thing you'd hear chanted at a pyramid/multi-level marketing seminar!!!
The human brain loves a clearly stated goal/vision, one that unites all, followed by the incremental steps required to achieve stated goal/vision. I'd much prefer, "It's our goal to play finals this year and go deep into finals next year, a premiership within 4 years", (for arguments sake). The stated goals of the first two years of the rebuild were practical, realistic and relateable for the fans. Last year and this, well, just unaccountable, visionless garbage.
People laughed at the Tiggers a few years back when they publicly stated they would achieve 70,000 members... unheard of at the time. They had a vision. Bravo. Who's laughing now?
How about a clearly stated vision for this year, BB? Nothing vague (he loves the back door left open), something that is actually palpable, treats us with a little respect and assumes we might actually be capable of critical thinking. If we fall short, well, we're very forgiving... that's obvious, eh?
Thanks.
In fairness, the last of our coaches to publically state an aim, drew a massive target on his back.
Malthouse couldnt see us losing a game (he was being facetious, but it became a point our opposition insisted on driving home as they pummelled us mercilessly and set themselves to do it).
The coach before him Ratten publically stated that top 4 was the aim before falling short of finals, and copping the lemon sars.
One wonders, what may have occurred differently had both of them kept their mouths shut, and gone with some more ambiguous answer.
On a more Brendan Bolton level, he needs to stop looking up at the ceiling, and worry about the termites eating through the floor.
Well I’ll be.....
“For Jones, dotting the Is and crossing the Ts began with video reviews of the Swans’ opening two contests with the Western Bulldogs and Adelaide. As he said: “I made sure I had a look at the blokes who played on him (Franklin) – Easton Wood in Round 1 and Daniel Talia the following week”.
A “go-to” person was the former Hawthorn, St Kilda and Fremantle key defender Zac Dawson, the recently-appointed manager of Carlton’s Next Generation Academy program.
“Zac’s been a great help. He’s given me key points each week, has watched vision with me and helped me preview the guys I might be playing on,” Jones revealed.”
Well I’ll be.....
“For Jones, dotting the Is and crossing the Ts began with video reviews of the Swans’ opening two contests with the Western Bulldogs and Adelaide. As he said: “I made sure I had a look at the blokes who played on him (Franklin) – Easton Wood in Round 1 and Daniel Talia the following week”.
A “go-to” person was the former Hawthorn, St Kilda and Fremantle key defender Zac Dawson, the recently-appointed manager of Carlton’s Next Generation Academy program.
“Zac’s been a great help. He’s given me key points each week, has watched vision with me and helped me preview the guys I might be playing on,” Jones revealed.”
Yes, it's borderline frightful that he (Dawson) is :
a. at our club
b. helping Jones.
Who knew ? Anyway, good news, and I hope he continues to help Jones grow his game.
Well done to both.
Dawson was a guy with zero ability who managed to somehow keep a career going despite delistings to play 166 games.
Those are sometimes the types of guys who make good coaches. We all know Clarkson had zero playing ability.
Dawson was a guy with zero ability who managed to somehow keep a career going despite delistings to play 166 games.
Those are sometimes the types of guys who make good coaches. We all know Clarkson had zero playing ability.
Fair points jeza.
Dawson was a guy with zero ability who managed to somehow keep a career going despite delistings to play 166 games.
Those are sometimes the types of guys who make good coaches. We all know Clarkson had zero playing ability.
It's why Leigh Matthews is such an exception, most good players are dud coaches.
Almost certainly teams coached by has-been superstars would have done better without them!
One of the reasons for this is that most superstars have natural ability, and a lot of the time they just play on instinct rather than playing to orders. Sure they have a role, but the way they go about it is generally left up to them, or game plans built around them.
It's why Leigh Matthews is such an exception, most good players are dud coaches.
Almost certainly teams coached by has-been superstars would have done better without them!
Barassi, Jesaulenko, Nicholls, Walls, and far too many other successful coaches to list say “Hi!” :)
Interesting The Dees inspect recent Swans games and go with twin rucks!
Dees to defeat the Swans.
And the world turns.
That would be three wins in a row for a observant punter, but I don't really gamble!
And the world turns.
That would be three wins in a row for a observant punter, but I don't really gamble!
And yet there is a marked difference between causation and correlation....
And yet there is a marked difference between causation and correlation....
Whether Carlton is the cause is unknown, but the trend is so significant given the odds being offered over the last couple of seasons, it's borders on bizarre!
I wonder what the long term odds really are for a prudent investor, given the odds bias the result?
What were the odds last night before the game?
Barassi, Jesaulenko, Nicholls, Walls, and far too many other successful coaches to list say “Hi!” :)
He gotcha there, Spotted One. I suspect you might have been thinking about the Jeans', Malthouses, Parkins... and then there's the bloke who defies categorisation - Blight!
Whether Carlton is the cause is unknown, but the trend is so significant given the odds being offered over the last couple of seasons, it's borders on bizarre!
I wonder what the long term odds really are for a prudent investor, given the odds bias the result?
What were the odds last night before the game?
From memory $1.82 on Sydney to win and $2.20 for the dees to win.
Its not that surprising really. The demons have started poorly and got baked in the media last week and needed to respond. Sydney have been drinking their own bathwater and dining out on their reputation, and havent really impressed this season.
From memory $1.82 on Sydney to win and $2.20 for the dees to win.
Its not that surprising really. The demons have started poorly and got baked in the media last week and needed to respond. Sydney have been drinking their own bathwater and dining out on their reputation, and havent really impressed this season.
Those odds were mostly reflecting the fact that the Swans had never lost to the Dees under Horse's tenure....
From memory $1.82 on Sydney to win and $2.20 for the dees to win.
Its not that surprising really. The demons have started poorly and got baked in the media last week and needed to respond. Sydney have been drinking their own bathwater and dining out on their reputation, and havent really impressed this season.
McVeigh was missing who really gives them a lot of composure. Wish our senior players could do that.
Those odds were mostly reflecting the fact that the Swans had never lost to the Dees under Horse's tenure....
Isn't that supporting the "Post Carlton" conjecture?
Anyway I'm not a punter, but it seems to me if the price is typically about 2:1 and that 70% of bets will win, you've either deadcrap dumb or horribly greedy not to come out slightly ahead!