Carlton Supporters Club

(What was the big Supertramp hit from 1975? Maybe that's me at this moment).   

Quote from: madbluboy – on July 09, 2025, 07:48:09 am

Marshall and Cameron are the same age.

People don't seem to realise that Marshall will be 30 by the end of the year.
All of these replacement rucks are at that age. I'm not swapping a first round pick for any 30 yo.
We have Pittonet in that bracket and swapping him out for another ruck is not going to give us a '1st rounder value' of output upgrade in that position. If we are giving away first rounders, i'd much rather do it on another position.

Quote from: shawny – on July 08, 2025, 06:49:03 pm

Cameron is too old and would hate to go from their culture to us IMO.

Marshall would be a great get - his tap work and work at ground level is exactly what we need. As TDK best work is when he is the sole ruck, they cant have Marshall in their long term plans unless they will play him as a forward but that seems unlikely. He would have a point to prove and if the offer is good he may be tempted but being contracted old mate SOS will 100% want the farm in return.

While Pit gives effort he's a old school slow lumbering ruck man which we cant have as our main option if we want to improve especially with the one paced midfield we currently have.
  

Marshall gets a lot of the ball and would be the ideal replacement to take over the duties of TDK whose major benefit to us is his work as a defacto midfielder who can win clearances and provide drive from stoppages.
The only problem I see is he is contracted for two more years and Im sure the price would be our compo pick with maybe a late pick back..

Quote from: Professer E – on July 08, 2025, 12:17:38 pm

Not every North player was enamoured about Pagan and his methods. I've heard Adam Simpson describe some of his "coaching" in less than glowing terms and Corey McKernan was not a fan either - he left to come to us, and checked out again when Pagan came across to us.  There's two examples straight off the bat.
Kouta writes about it in detail in his book.  It was 1980s hard ass coaching for a 2000s group that didn't respond to that approach.  Some people would call them "soft", others would say they were independent enough to not unthinkingly swallow abuse and BS.
Pagan was the kind of coach you played to spite, not to because he was your mate.

I'm 2 pages behind, so sorry if this has been mentioned...
Pagan and Malthouse had long stints at their previous clubs, the entire list was "theirs" so players either bought in or withered and died.
When you transplant those "old" coaches to a new environment, straight away you get 40 guys saying to themselves "he cant talk to me like that, Ive played my whole career here and hes been here 5 mins "

Id be dropping TDK and Charlie Curnow this week, the former has checked out and has been poor the past few weeks and Charlie hasnt kicked a goal for three weeks and been half arsed and ultra casual about his work and Id have both in the VFL team for a couple of weeks to think about their responsibilities to the team.
If they want to sulk about it they can stay in the ressies, and in Charlies case Id put him up for trade if he wouldnt change his attitude. Voss has been reticent to drop big names probably because his job is on the line and he fears losing their support but I think if we had done it earlier on we might have sent a stronger message on how the club will be operating for the rest of the season and that when he said get used to being comfortable about being uncomfortable he meant it.

Quote from: LP – on July 08, 2025, 07:36:37 am

I suspect it's more likely there are factions between players than a specific issue with the coach.

If there are factions in our group they are enabled and driven by the culture at the club, these things do not form bottom up without some failure of governance.

Whether this is true or not, it does at least sound plausible IMO.

Quote from: Lods – on July 07, 2025, 01:33:03 pm

Which brings us back to the original argument....
Are these players still some of the best?
Are they playing like some of the best at the moment?
If not, will they be some of the best again.

The old saying that a "Champion team will always beat a team of Champions" probably applies to us in spades when you consider how well some opposition clubs 'team' together.
We're not in the same ballpark in terms of connection.

Class is permanent until you cant run and jump.
Half the 1995 Premiership team were in their 30s with long injury histories.

I dont think we need players that are the best in the comp in a said position. We need players that know and understand what they are doing. For us, we have some of the best players in the competition which makes our position untenable.

Quote from: Lods – on July 06, 2025, 03:30:06 pm

It's not defeatist Thry
It's facing reality.
One or two may get back to a semblance of their best.
Others are passed it, and are approaching the end of their careers
And some have suffered significant injuries, not just once , but have had a number of seasons derailed by injury.
Injuries can have a cumulative effect.
When you're young you can recover quickly.
As you age it takes it's toll.
Injuries to a back can lead to compensatory injuries in the hamstrings, calves and feet, due to an imbalance.
Some injuries are degenerative and time (and age) is the enemy.

Now in a group you may get one or two who can make a full recovery and play there best football in their late 20's early 30s.
But if that group is large, the more likely result is that you've seen the best of some of these players.

Of our All-Australian players currently listed I would reckon the majority will never see AA again.
And that was the point.
That they'll all never reach that level again.
We'll have others who will come on...but not all of that group.
But time will tell

sorry lods I just want to say that injuries and dealing with them are part good management, part rehab, part preparation, part attitude, part patience and mostly a little luck.

1I've never met an injured bloke cut down and not capable of playing at the elite level ever again no matter the column of their injuries, they usually run out of time before they run out of lives.  Weiters has barely had a real problem.  Harry has had more issue with concussion than his body.  Charlie is unique.  He's showing the ability he used to have but his form is poor and second efforts absent.  More conditioning IMHO.  once conditioning goes optimum performance is harder to achieve but it can come back.

Pros come back from injuries in every code.  It might be we need some of these guys spending more time rehabbing and playing rather than doing any real training but only a solid pre season affords that capability.  Something they all seem to have suffered with. 

Zac williams has the worst injury history of the bunch.  Nick haynes isnt much better.  Both have played their best footy in years this season.  I think Zac's durability is still a question and given we are playing for naught now, I think weve taken the opportunity to take him off before something serious happens.

How come Essendon and Scott aren’t coming under intense scrutiny, they’re going crap too

Quote from: Lods – on July 06, 2025, 07:34:34 pm

It might be about finding the right moment and the right side to bring them in against.
Do we go for the 'hard' lesson
Moore on Lemmey, or Ben C against the Collingwood midfield might have been an excellent learning experience.
It could also be a confidence sapper.
I'm not sure the Brisbane game is the right one either.
Melbourne would be the game.
But we'll see what they do it might be this week.
When they do get their chance we have to appreciate this is just for development purposes and judge them accordingly.
Lemmey's out of contract this year but I reckon he's worth persisting with for another year

I agree with all you've said here, but there is also the  old "to be the best you need to beat the best" and everyone a chance to pit themselves against the reigning premiers. You might find the young kids putting their hands up begging for a crack at them. If they do, it's to be encouraged I reckon. Its all part of the learning.