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Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #240 –
Quote from: Lods on
Quick question....Did the club put a time frame on it.

Somewhere along the way I remember there was talk about it being a 66 game rebuild.
From memory it was a comment attributed to Stephen Silvagni but.....
I don't think that was ever a timeline.
Can anyone produce a 'direct quote' from any club source saying 3 yrs/66 games.

No, the 66 game rebuild was the creation of a footy reporter who used it after interviewing SOS.  The club has always used the term “multiple drafts”.

However, Bolton has now declared that he has the list he wants to develop into a premiership contender so it’s unlikely that we’ll see major list changes at the end of the season - unless SOS and co have missed the mark.
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #241 –
So given that he now has the list to develop we should (barring significant injury) expect to see improvement in both players and team as this season progresses.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #242 –
Quote from: Lods on
So given that he now has the list to develop we should (barring significant injury) expect to see improvement in both players and team as this season progresses.

If we lose to the Suns and sit on the bottom of the ladder as the only side with no wins, it will put great pressure on the entire coaching group and playing group to develop talent quickly. We can’t end this season with as few wins for the year as we did last season. Things need to improve sooner, rather than later. As other sides develop genuine self belief and confidence winning games, it will make it so much more difficult for us to be competitive and win games. The next few weeks will be a real testing period for the entire club.
This digital world is too much for us insects to understand.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #243 –
Quote from: Mantis on
If we lose to the Suns and sit on the bottom of the ladder as the only side with no wins, it will put great pressure on the entire coaching group and playing group to develop talent quickly. We can’t end this season with as few wins for the year as we did last season. Things need to improve sooner, rather than later. As other sides develop genuine self belief and confidence winning games, it will make it so much more difficult for us to be competitive and win games. The next few weeks will be a real testing period for the entire club.

Yes Mantis, you're on the money!

We need a win to engender self-belief but, once that happens, I expect inconsistent performances with wins when we should lose and losses when we should win.  A frustrating, as well as testing period, but it should set us up - provided Bolton knows what he's doing, and I think he does.
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #244 –
Win, lose or draw vs the Suns doesnt change much IMO.....its more about where we sit mid season and how we go vs teams who we normally struggle against and can we
beat some better quality teams. I'm not going to hang Bolton out to dry if we lose vs the Suns unless its by plenty and I'm not going to get too excited either unless we kick 100 points and have a big win. I'm more interested in seeing improvement vs teams like the Dogs and Hawks in the next few weeks ....wins vs those teams will tell more us more than losing or winning vs the Suns who are not very good but have fluked a few wins early and have a decent home ground advantage with conditions that can be hard for visiting teams.
Given most poorly performed teams now have a win I expect us to join them and beat GC by 5 goals.....but the real test is after that.....

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #245 –
Quote from: Lods on
I think we all expected a bit of pain but....

Did anyone think we'd be last 3 years after the start of the rebuild?
With our worst percentage in over a hundred years and an equal worst ever win/ loss record for the season.
And the least number of goals kicked in a season since the competition moved to a 22 game season.


Selling that in 2015 would have been a "hard sell"

Like i said lods.  Unless everything went perfectly, it's not surprising.   The only reason we weren't going to finish last was if the wheels fell off somewhere else.

Our best case scenarios are still to finish in the 12-14 range at the start of the season.  Our worst case scenarios are 15-18.  All it takes for our worst case scenarios is for the cliff to come for a team like Sydney, gold coast, Brisbane, st kilda and we go from worst to best case winning 5 games for the year.

It's really simple to look at and see and some of us called it based on our injury list in January.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #246 –
Quote from: Thryleon on
Like i said lods.  Unless everything went perfectly, it's not surprising.   The only reason we weren't going to finish last was if the wheels fell off somewhere else.

Our best case scenarios are still to finish in the 12-14 range at the start of the season.  Our worst case scenarios are 15-18.  All it takes for our worst case scenarios is for the cliff to come for a team like Sydney, gold coast, Brisbane, st kilda and we go from worst to best case winning 5 games for the year.

It's really simple to look at and see and some of us called it based on our injury list in January.

I certainly didn't envisage our worst season ever three years into a rebuild.
But what's done is done.

I guess the point I'm making is that how we feel about a 15-18 finish is not that important in isolation.
It's how it's playing out in the wider club supporter/member base and public environment (media sponsors etc).

How impatient are the board.
How impatient are the movers and shakers.

We've had some significant movement with two of the main advocates of the rebuild in Trigg and Mckay having moved on.
They began a process and for whatever reason didn't see it through.

I've mentioned before that the faith in a direction is a leakage process.
Continued losses slowly eats away at the support until a bigger, unfixable hole appears.
Finish 17-18th and the hole is entering the "Evacuation zone"

The bottom line is that few Carlton supporters want to see this process fail and all it really needs is some turnarounds.
Player improvement and development is fine, but unless it's accompanied by results it's not effective in the eyes of supporters and members.
Truth is we don't remember the years of development.
We only remember the outcomes.
Ten years from now the last three years will just be a blur.
All that will matter is what happens next...and that has to be improvement. 



Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #247 –
Quote from: DJC on
No, the 66 game rebuild was the creation of a footy reporter who used it after interviewing SOS.  The club has always used the term “multiple drafts”.

However, Bolton has now declared that he has the list he wants to develop into a premiership contender so it’s unlikely that we’ll see major list changes at the end of the season - unless SOS and co have missed the mark.

Not entirely true.

The club has certainly used the multiple drafts line most, but its also said 3 years as well. Pretty sure Bolton has referenced it in press conferences on at least 2 occassions. Club has kinda backed up the 3 years (with or without the definitive number) in club emails.

In any event, its clear that the hitting the draft stage is over and the rise up the ladder stage is expected to start kicking into gear.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #248 –
Quote from: kruddler on
Not entirely true.

The club has certainly used the multiple drafts line most, but its also said 3 years as well. Pretty sure Bolton has referenced it in press conferences on at least 2 occassions. Club has kinda backed up the 3 years (with or without the definitive number) in club emails.

In any event, its clear that the hitting the draft stage is over and the rise up the ladder stage is expected to start kicking into gear.

Can you point to one of those Kruds
I can't recall the 66/3year ever being used directly by a club official.
It's why I asked for a direct reference.
Multiple drafts could mean any number.

While it's not of great importance the 3 year timeline is often used as gospel

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #249 –
Quote from: Lods on
How the current position is playing out amongst our everyday supporters is not able to be determined.
I'd guess there is still majority support...but I think most folk fear the result of not staying the course rather than being confident it will succeed.

If someone had said to you at the end of round 2 2015....

"We're rebuilding. It will take time. We may drop to the bottom of the ladder at the end of this year but that will mean some strong draft positions." Your response would probably have been.... "Bring it on!"

Had they added …

"Oh, by the way.... we'll also be last at the end of 2018 and  it will probably take several years after that before we're back in the finals....if at all, no guarantees!...and a couple of us won't be here to see it through"
... would you still have bought what they were selling.

This goes back to what i was saying earlier. Vocal minority

TBH, f*** them.

I don't need the club to pander to supporters who think we should have won a flag yesterday. I just want the club to get it right.

I understand that the club 'sold' the idea in the way they did. Playing it out warts and all would do nothing for the confidence of players, supporters and sponsors and served very little purpose apart from to reign in expectations for this 'vocal minority'

Not only does it dissuade potential sponsors. But it allows the players to think its ok to be losing as it was 'expected'.

Nope. Screw that. I'm happy the club did what it did.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #250 –
Quote from: Lods on
Can you point to one of those Kruds
I can't recall the 66/3year ever being used directly by a club official.
It's why I asked for a direct reference.
Multiple drafts could mean any number.

Nah, i've searched before for no luck. Not everything is in the written form, and wading through hours worth of press conferences is not something i care to take the time to do.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #251 –
Quote from: kruddler on
This goes back to what i was saying earlier. Vocal minority

TBH, f*** them.

I don't need the club to pander to supporters who think we should have won a flag yesterday. I just want the club to get it right.

I understand that the club 'sold' the idea in the way they did. Playing it out warts and all would do nothing for the confidence of players, supporters and sponsors and served very little purpose apart from to reign in expectations for this 'vocal minority'

Not only does it dissuade potential sponsors. But it allows the players to think its ok to be losing as it was 'expected'.

Nope. Screw that. I'm happy the club did what it did.

I'm not happy.
I've thought from the start it was an exercise to buy time without consequence.
There may also have been a hidden agenda there to force out a coach who was never going to have his record damaged by going through a rebuilding process.

We had a side that finished 9th (actually ended up 6th due to the Essendon scandal)
The next year was an injury savaged year that saw us drop down then ladder.

Then two games into the 2015 season they sucked the absolute life out of the playing group by announcing a rebuild....two games!!
Since then we've dived to the bottom.

Would we be in a worse position if we hadn't followed the total rebuild path.
Well we could hardly be, could we.
To say we would be worse off assumes we would have been totally inactive during trades and draft .
We may not have had the currency but we would still have had options.
It may not have been Weitering, Dow and Walsh but there would still have been decent players there with mid first round picks.

Ah, "But the youth...the future you say."
Lets see how that develops before we call it.

But there is little point dwelling on the past.
What all of us want to see is a successful club.
A club winning games on a regular basis
We've been too long in the wilderness.


Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #252 –
Quote from: kruddler on
Nah, i've searched before for no luck. Not everything is in the written form, and wading through hours worth of press conferences is not something i care to take the time to do.

Then failing that we have to assume no official ever put a deadline on the rebuild publicly.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #253 –
Quote from: Lods on
I'm not happy.
I've thought from the start it was an exercise to buy time without consequence.
There may also have been a hidden agenda there to force out a coach who was never going to have his record damaged by going through a rebuilding process.

We had a side that finished 9th (actually ended up 6th due to the Essendon scandal)
The next year was an injury savaged year that saw us drop down then ladder.

Then two games into the 2015 season they sucked the absolute life out of the playing group by announcing a rebuild....two games!!
Since then we've dived to the bottom.

Would we be in a worse position if we hadn't followed the total rebuild path.
Well we could hardly be, could we.
To say we would be worse off assumes we would have been totally inactive during trades and draft .
We may not have had the currency but we would still have had options.
It may not have been Weitering, Dow and Walsh but there would still have been decent players there with mid first round picks.

Ah, "But the youth...the future you say."
Lets see how that develops before we call it.

But there is little point dwelling on the past.
What all of us want to see is a successful club.
A club winning games on a regular basis
We've been too long in the wilderness.

You may remember that my thoughts on Rattens sacking alingned with yours at the time. Probably a bit harsh, but with all the external pressure, it had to happen.
You would be aware that my thoughts on Malthouse seems contrary to public opinion. In the end, with all the external pressure, it had to happen.
Now....we are starting to get some external pressure on Bolton.
Connect the dots.

Basically we cannot undo what was done in the past. I've been very strong on the fact that the problem has NOT been with the coaches, but with the club as a whole. Partly due to the way it implodes when external pressure starts getting applied....by that vocal minority.

I wish the club had balls to back Ratten in.
I with the club had balls to let Malthouse do what he wanted and actually supported him rather than hang him out to dry.
I hope the club does NOT go through this same knee jerk reaction now.

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it

So with that in mind, and knowing that the club expected a 3-year draft top up, doing anything other than back Bolton (and a rebuilt club i might add) in, would be absolute madness.

Re: If Not BB, Who?

Reply #254 –
Sacking him now isn't going to happen
And when and if he does go he should have some company.

Anyway I'm off to the footy to hopefully watch him coach a winning game.