Carlton Supporters Club

OK, so we've had a little stumble.

How will we react, what is the gut feeling about the direction we take as a club?

btw., Wallsy on SEN after 4pm today.

As painful as it feels now, we need to give these guys a chance to see this through.

The reality is we've had alot of key injuries to our personnel, that we as a club given our limited depth could ill afford (much more that most). Yes, our recent performances havent been great

We are headed the right way, but we just need to dodge the numerous icebergs we are encountering.

I have promised my 9 year old son that we will keep going to games until at the very least he sees a win in the flesh. We are 0-4 so far but I am a patient (albeit crazy) individual.

You'd want to change your avatar,  his jumper is puke worthy.

The fans reaction will be mixed. Some will buy into it, some will whinge.

As for the club, given the big song and dance they made about the reset etc., I think they will stick to the plan, if only to save face. It would be a massive farce if they bailed IMO

It will largely depend on whether those in power at admin level at the moment are still there this time next year.
If they are, they'll stay the course...they don't have a choice.

But if we have a change...all bets are off....and I think that's about a 50/50 at the moment if things don't improve.

The fans reaction will be mixed. Some will buy into it, some will whinge.

As for the club, given the big song and dance they made about the reset etc., I think they will stick to the plan, if only to save face. It would be a massive farce if they bailed IMO

That would signal time to change the whole board!

It will largely depend on whether those in power at admin level at the moment are still there this time next year.
If they are, they'll stay the course...they don't have a choice.

But if we have a change...all bets are off....and I think that's about a 50/50 at the moment if things don't improve.

All bets could well be off Lods, but what alternative approach would be possible now? Haven't we gone past the point of no return?

That would signal time to change the whole board!

Any pressure is on the coach and players at the moment....but it must also come for the board at some stage.
They chose this approach.
They have to own the success or failure.

All bets could well be off Lods, but what alternative approach would be possible now? Haven't we gone past the point of no return?

It would depend where the board challenge came from...Folks have probably had enough of some of the 'family' personalities but if a group of respected Carlton people, with a promise of a change and a plan to implement it put themselves forward, that may be an attractive proposition for many.

(Not necessarily what I want, but what I see as a real possibility.)

We are running out of time Lods, we are too old to be putting up with this tripe!

Even the concept of some respectable Carlton people getting involved in 2018 still looks like a 1960s war between "The Skips and The Wogs!" "The Heatley Stand vs The Outer!"

Someone drive my Rolls up to the fence line so I can watch the game, do they still make Bentleys I'll buy one if that is what it takes? ;D

(http://www.blueseum.org/img/wiki_up/1972%20Menzies%20bentley%20v%20foots%20Capture.JPG)

Factions are everywhere, unity will be dissolved! :o

Highlighting this early, calling it the way we think it will be heading, is the only way to fight the good fight!

We are running out of time Lods, we are too old to be putting up with this tripe!

Even the concept of some respectable Carlton people getting involved in 2018 still looks like a 1960s war between "The Skips and The Wogs!"

Factions are everywhere, unity will be dissolved! :o

Highlighting this early, calling it as we think it be heading, is the only way to fight the good fight!

As I said it's not necessarily what I want...but the question was 'How will Carlton react?'...and a lot of that will depend on 'who' Carlton is at the time.
This Carlton will stay the course...another will not.

Unity is a fragile thing, and we need it for success...but you can't demand unity...you have it inspire it.

As I said it's not necessarily what I want...but the question was 'How will Carlton react?'...and a lot of that will depend on 'who' Carlton is at the time.
This Carlton will stay the course...another will not.

Unity is a fragile thing, and we need it for success...but you can't demand unity...you have it inspire it.

I wonder if the AFL would stand idly by if the faction wars break out again? Or would they impose direct rule from AFL House or some other draconian measure?

I wonder if the AFL would stand idly by if the faction wars break out again? Or would they impose direct rule from AFL House or some other draconian measure?

Well make no mistake they have caused this, and they have perpetuated it!

42 players later and with SOS the mate of the MLG I know who the fall guy is....problem with losing a lot more games than you win with an extension to the rebuild is you lose fans/members and money. The AFL take away your Friday nights and you become Sunday game failures, sponsors get harder to get and the board get nervous and want change. Bolton will get another season but it wouldnt want to be a repeat of how this one has started, it will be interesting how panicked the club is and how we draft either more kids on mass or messiah drafting where we chase hard and pay overs for big names.

Facts are the rebuild hasnt gone the way we planned, either we have gone backwards or other clubs like North have taken big steps forward, I'm going with the latter and that puts the coach in the cross hairs along with his assistants....I'd expect some big changes to Boltons support team next season and a cleanout of his assistants...

As I said it's not necessarily what I want...but the question was 'How will Carlton react?'...and a lot of that will depend on 'who' Carlton is at the time.
This Carlton will stay the course...another will not.

Unity is a fragile thing, and we need it for success...but you can't demand unity...you have it inspire it.

The choice is either stay the course or go back to the old "Carlton doesn't rebuild". Within an overall strategy, one can change personnel, but the only two strategies are those. The only change that would make any kind of sense is to change personnel, because the new personnel can do a better job of implementing the "slow build" strategy. Other than that, I fail to see the point, and just like in politics, some won't be able to resist the temptation of instant success, better times and fancy promises. 

42 players later and with SOS the mate of the MLG I know who the fall guy is....problem with losing a lot more games than you win with an extension to the rebuild is you lose fans/members and money. The AFL take away your Friday nights and you become Sunday game failures, sponsors get harder to get and the board get nervous and want change. Bolton will get another season but it wouldnt want to be a repeat of how this one has started, it will be interesting how panicked the club is and how we draft either more kids on mass or messiah drafting where we chase hard and pay overs for big names.

Facts are the rebuild hasnt gone the way we planned, either we have gone backwards or other clubs like North have taken big steps forward, I'm going with the latter and that puts the coach in the cross hairs along with his assistants....I'd expect some big changes to Boltons support team next season and a cleanout of his assistants...

Yes I tend to agree. BB and his assistants have probably got this year to show something but this board appointed him and it would be very reluctant in the immediate term to admit they got it wrong. I think there could possibly be an attempted face-saver e'g' a  Roos-like figure appointed at some stage as "Director of Coaching" or some such title but in reality he would be a full time mentor for BB. Whether BB would cop that is open to question of course.

Yes I tend to agree. BB and his assistants have probably got this year to show something but this board appointed him and it would be very reluctant in the immediate term to admit they got it wrong. I think there could possibly be an attempted face-saver e'g' a  Roos-like figure appointed at some stage as "Director of Coaching" or some such title but in reality he would be a full time mentor for BB. Whether BB would cop that is open to question of course.

Director of Coaching is one of my pet hates, its just another way of saying we dont have complete faith in the coach and we need someone to hold his hand IMHO......dont see Bolton wanting anyone mentoring or holding his hand after doing a apprenticeship with Clarkson...

Director of Coaching is one of my pet hates, its just another way of saying we dont have complete faith in the coach and we need someone to hold his hand IMHO......dont see Bolton wanting anyone mentoring or holding his hand after doing a apprenticeship with Clarkson...

See your point EB, but the board (and SOS for that matter) may well want to try and shore him up for a while since their own knackers would be on the line if BB is not seen as a success.

See your point EB, but the board (and SOS for that matter) may well want to try and shore him up for a while since their own knackers would be on the line if BB is not seen as a success.

Reckon if push came to shove, the SOS alliance would find a way of keeping their hands pretty clean.

Missing Neil Craig???

See your point EB, but the board (and SOS for that matter) may well want to try and shore him up for a while since their own knackers would be on the line if BB is not seen as a success.

Thats a fair point Cookie, I guess I am angling more at there needs to be a fall guy and its not going to be SOS at this stage, 4 years of BB might be enough in the minds of some on the board
to justify replacing him if if we are going like we are going now...

Thats a fair point Cookie, I guess I am angling more at there needs to be a fall guy and its not going to be SOS at this stage, 4 years of BB might be enough in the minds of some on the board
to justify replacing him if if we are going like we are going now...

Could be and it's certainly going to be an interesting ride in 2018.

The choice is either stay the course or go back to the old "Carlton doesn't rebuild".

Apparently Carlton doesn't rebuild - at least not effectively, it seems.

I wasn't expecting a lot of wins this year, but the way we are capitulating without a fight is quite concerning.

The faithful will judge Bolton and the coaching group on the effort not the score sheet. If we continue to see no spirit Bolton will be gone.

We can address list deficiencies come free agency time but if the coaching group can't reach this group and fire them up then we have the wrong coaching staff.

Apparently Carlton doesn't rebuild - at least not effectively, it seems.

What are your general thoughts about the list changes in the last 3 drafts ?

I wasn't expecting a lot of wins this year, but the way we are capitulating without a fight is quite concerning.

The faithful will judge Bolton and the coaching group on the effort not the score sheet. If we continue to see no spirit Bolton will be gone.

We can address list deficiencies come free agency time but if the coaching group can't reach this group and fire them up then we have the wrong coaching staff.

Evev if BB does go we may well get someone who would be tasked with continuing the rebuild rather than reverting to a quick fix?

We're not there yet, but we sure are approaching the fork in the road - quick fix/change senior coach or stay the course.

Once BB has a healthier list to choose from (about 2-4 weeks away), and they play a few games together I suspect we'll know more - particularly unfair to assess him at the moment considering how ruptured the playing list is... and Kreuz and Kennedy playing injured and Weitering in the doldrums. We've got about 4-5 blokes carrying the whole side at the present.

But to think that SOS/Judge/Mangler Mathieson haven't cast an eye over how Ratts is doing, is P Roos up for another stint and/or the availability of their mate R Lyon, would be naive.

We're not there yet, but we sure are approaching the fork in the road - quick fix/change senior coach or stay the course.

Once BB has a healthier list to choose from (about 2-4 weeks away), and they play a few games together I suspect we'll know more - particularly unfair to assess him at the moment considering how ruptured the playing list is... and Kreuz and Kennedy playing injured and Weitering in the doldrums. We've got about 4-5 blokes carrying the whole side at the present.

But to think that SOS/Judge/Mangler Mathieson haven't cast an eye over how Ratts is doing, is P Roos up for another stint and/or the availability of their mate R Lyon, would be naive.

You can add Andy Mac to that nest of vipers.

I've got the feeling over many years that Roos simply doesn't like Carlton, so I doubt he'd be keen. Plus I didn't really like his handling of being Melbourne coach - $1.5M per season with an "all care no responsibility" approach. That's probably not right, but that's the vibe I got. No thanks.

Lyon might be a fit, but if they're all mates, who takes the fall when the caca hits the fan ? Plus his record at Freo is blah, and seems destined to be a bridesmaid coach.

As for Ratts, I'd be insisting on a multi million dollar payout if things don't work out, with those blokes in charge. Plus I'm not sure he and SOS are all that friendly.

Evev if BB does go we may well get someone who would be tasked with continuing the rebuild rather than reverting to a quick fix?

Definitely. The question is whether Bolton and the coaching panel are the best to lead the rebuild and are leading the young group on the right path. There is no 'quick' fix but we may need a better development plan and match day strategy. One or two highly paid free agents to join the group in 2019 and lead them on the field won't hurt either.

Juddy on FC, pretty good performance, needs to take more of the media space because he has the respect!

Missing Neil Craig???

Yes !!

Interesting that last night of FC Judd declared they had thought this season would be the worst of the three given the large number of players turned over.

If they had communicated that correctly they would still have members going to games but with a very different level of expectation.

Missing Neil Craig???

Well maybe a "father figure" on the back row of the coach's box? Maybe that would be of some help but I think that our collective onfield confidence is currently shot and the dearth of onfield leadership and inspiration has largely caused that. The loss of Murphy is yet another blow and Kreuz's fitness is also a worry. We need to address this both immediately and in our longer term list management strategy. We definitely need a couple of solid cool inspirational onfield leaders desperately or we are in grave danger of stuffing up the futures of more promising kids as well as our own.

Well maybe a "father figure" on the back row of the coach's box?

Possibly, I thought Parkin was still mentoring BB, but he is obviously not a match day figure.

I would have thought, as long as there is cohesion, that Barker and Bolton now have enough experience to work through this without consulting a Godfather! If the Godfather appears, that will be the old Carlton returning!

I do worry that on match day that BB is thinking himself into a corner, he seems to justify the same old same old, a sort of tsactical paralysis. It no different from the players 2nd year blues, opposition are learning BBs tricks, so I think he needs to be a bit more unpredictable, almost do a Dimma and throw away any plan and allow the players to play! Make use of those new players and the tricks and skills that the opponents do not yet know about.

That was probably the cause of our honeymoon period, the first year effect. Lots of young players that the opposition knew little about. Now we have 3/4 of our list as 1st, 2nd or 3rd year players which means a lot of them are suffering 2nd year blues, they have become known knowns and the rest are babies at war scattered around the odd general!

Interesting that last night of FC Judd declared they had thought this season would be the worst of the three given the large number of players turned over.

If they had communicated that correctly they would still have members going to games but with a very different level of expectation.

Some of us expected this.

Granted we thought the injury to Docherty was going to be much more significant to the loss of synergy, and its also why I started that thread selection dissection.

What we didnt expect was for the team to be as limp competitively as it has been.

We havent seen some of this stuff since the Pagan days.

Some of us expected this.

Granted we thought the injury to Docherty was going to be much more significant to the loss of synergy, and its also why I started that thread selection dissection.

What we didnt expect was for the team to be as limp competitively as it has been.

We havent seen some of this stuff since the Pagan days.

x2....Yep most of us didnt expect finals but more to tread water , but we didnt expect to be drowning.....

It's interesting EB1.

A mate made a nice analogy to our current situation. He said it's like we were building a jigsaw puzzle, we made the border then instead of filling in the middle we destroyed the border and re-started from the inside out.

He thinks we went too far, we haven't retained enough of the early framework, and that has hurt us!

I also wonder, if as a club we are sensitive to the AFL's recent AFLW interference regarding game style, relative to our AFL prime time TV scheduling. Are we serving two masters?

The NB's went from a 130 point defeat to losing by a couple of points in the shadows of the post within a week, without their most prolific ball winner in Graham and last year's best defender in O'Shea.
A fortnight ago Brisbane pushed Port to the limit then last week kicked 2 goals for the game.
Sport throws up all sorts of results some of which are inexplicable, we won't keep being thrashed every week because that's just not the way it goes.
Keep the faith folks, there are brighter days ahead.

The NB's went from a 130 point defeat to losing by a couple of points in the shadows of the post within a week, without their most prolific ball winner in Graham and last year's best defender in O'Shea.
A fortnight ago Brisbane pushed Port to the limit then last week kicked 2 goals for the game.
Sport throws up all sorts of results some of which are inexplicable, we won't keep being thrashed every week because that's just not the way it goes.
Keep the faith folks, there are brighter days ahead.

At the moment, this is the way I feel. So long as we don't lose key players to homesickness, long term injury etc.

At the moment, this is the way I feel. So long as we don't lose key players to homesickness, long term injury etc.

We've already lost arguably our best player for the season so that's about as bad as things can get on that score, imagine Richmond without Martin, Cotchin or Rance.
As far as the go home factor that's a problem for every team, the best you can do is to make sure that the players are all in it together and if the urge is too strong get the best price for them that you can.
It helps if they're getting a game and not cooling their heels in the seconds like Jacobs and Grigg, but teams often lose out under those circumstances.
I'm fairly certain that Brisbane would see pick 30 odd for Docherty as a loss.

It's interesting EB1.

A mate made a nice analogy to our current situation. He said it's like we were building a jigsaw puzzle, we made the border then instead of filling in the middle we destroyed the border and re-started from the inside out.

He thinks we went too far, we haven't retained enough of the early framework, and that has hurt us!

I also wonder, if as a club we are sensitive to the AFL's recent AFLW interference regarding game style, relative to our AFL prime time TV scheduling. Are we serving two masters?

LP, I remember my daughter learning to swim, in the shallow end she could swim across the pool no problems, no fear, all great, she then graduated to the deep end with the big kids, she said the wall on the other side was further away and she couldnt see the bottom of the pool anymore, took a bit of time to convince her it was the same distance and overcome her fear of the deep...maybe with the L plates off now in Boltons 3rd year and more expectation both coach and players need a bit of time to overcome the deep end fear....

maybe with the L plates off now in Boltons 3rd year and more expectation both coach and players need a bit of time to overcome the deep end fear....

Losing your captain and best midfielder in the warm up was the equivalent of the deep end fear for some of our young fellas.
All of a sudden the likes of SPS, Fisher and Dow were asked to play 20 or 30 percent above what would normally be expected of them to cover the loss of the skipper.
If they'd had since Thursday night to get their heads around it they would have made a better fist of it but it was always going to be very tough at a few minutes notice.
It was almost as tough on Nick Graham who was looking forward to a seat in the stand until 10 minutes before the game.

The NB's went from a 130 point defeat to losing by a couple of points in the shadows of the post within a week, without their most prolific ball winner in Graham and last year's best defender in O'Shea.

You know that it was Norp's first ever game as a stand-alone side, they had never played a real game before as a group! :o

Losing your captain and best midfielder in the warm up was the equivalent of the deep end fear for some of our young fellas.
All of a sudden the likes of SPS, Fisher and Dow were asked to play 20 or 30 percent above what would normally be expected of them to cover the loss of the skipper.
If they'd had since Thursday night to get their heads around it they would have made a better fist of it but it was always going to be very tough at a few minutes notice.
It was almost as tough on Nick Graham who was looking forward to a seat in the stand until 10 minutes before the game.

Who else did we lose other than Murphy pre game?

 ???  ;)

Who else did we lose other than Murphy pre game?

 ???  ;)

I read this to mean - Murphy as he's both our captain and our best midfielder.  Two titles same person.

Losing your captain and best midfielder in the warm up was the equivalent of the deep end fear for some of our young fellas.
All of a sudden the likes of SPS, Fisher and Dow were asked to play 20 or 30 percent above what would normally be expected of them to cover the loss of the skipper.
If they'd had since Thursday night to get their heads around it they would have made a better fist of it but it was always going to be very tough at a few minutes notice.
It was almost as tough on Nick Graham who was looking forward to a seat in the stand until 10 minutes before the game.

Yes blue4life , a lot to ask first yr players eg Dow & OBrien , rest are still finding there way, u fortunately Graham hasn't taken this chance again on all counts I have read. Not the way you would want to come into the side, but if there's an opportunity need to grab it. ,

I read this to mean - Murphy as he's both our captain and our best midfielder.  Two titles same person.

Flyboy77 was taking the piss, he knew exactly what B4L meant!

I think it's time to bring some better AFL class (not rejects) in via FA.

Someone like Guthrie, maybe Gaff or Dalhaus. Just another couple of guys that can manage AFL football and take some pressure off the kids. SPS, Dow etc would be better off being mids 5,6,7 etc than 3 or 4.

I'd also look for a Hodge/Lewis type as an on field coach.

I'm all for the rebuild but if we're not careful it could go very wrong 

Now we're into this rebuild we need to stay the course because we've demolished so much that we must push through and build something.... re-starting now just puts us back 3,4 or however many years.

Attract free agents and trade established not getting any younger players for picks.

We need to be looking at seasons 2020-2022 as our hotspot, and that means moving on value players for established mids and draft picks for trades/more talent acquisition.

There arent many left, but the players that fit this category:

Casboult
Kreuzer
Liam Jones (we need to stop making him look stupid back there, and get him back like the second half of last season pronto)

We arent getting draft picks for any other players, and whilst Id be reluctant to trade Kreuzer because hes one of those heart and soul players, that leaves us with only Casboult happily traded for good value, so we shouldnt drop him at all this season, and we need to put him into the frame to kick as many goals as possible.

I think it would be a good move to get a couple of seasoned hard at it and skillful mids in but not at the expense of losing our good draft picks or better players. FA would seem to be the best way to go and this would not compromise the rebuild. We have however generally failed in the past to attract the right players.

We need to forget about trading Casboult, he's not worth anything.

We need to forget about trading Casboult, he's not worth anything.

Controversial B4L!

I think it's time to bring some better AFL class (not rejects) in via FA.

Someone like Guthrie, maybe Gaff or Dalhaus. Just another couple of guys that can manage AFL football and take some pressure off the kids. SPS, Dow etc would be better off being mids 5,6,7 etc than 3 or 4.

I'd also look for a Hodge/Lewis type as an on field coach.

I'm all for the rebuild but if we're not careful it could go very wrong

Agree...to be fair SOS did try with Saad, Smith and Rockliff but those players wont come to bottom clubs and it also gets down to money and we dont seem to offer the real big dollars that other clubs do.

Controversial B4L!

Not really, his agent's been hawking him around for the past two or three years and there hasn't been any interest and he's not going to get any younger or better.
Jones isn't worth anything either, maybe a pick 50 or so but that's as good as nothing given our draft history.
The only trades we can make are young players who we've had a look at and don't think that they'll measure up, it's probably blasphemy to suggest it but McKay might get us a decent pick or a player.
Either that or hang onto him until he's truly worthless like we did with Watson and a few others.
If we want success we've got to start making some hard decisions.

Either that or hang onto him until he's truly worthless like we did with Watson and a few others.

I think it's too early to make that call.

I'd cut Casboult and put his wage towards leveraging an older KPF type away from a team to become our KPF cornerstone and forward zone leader. Not unlike what the Dawks did with Lake in defense!

It does not necessarily need to be someone out of contract, it just needs to be someone half decent with 2 or 3 years left in them and wants out of a club about to rebuild.

As stupid as this sounds, someone like Jarryd Roughead!

The problem we have at the moment though is that a lot of teams have forward lines with relatively young KPFs.

Maybe Tom Lynch(GC) will be the trigger that sees some experienced KPF types, the few that are left, on the move.

I think it's too early to make that call.

It won't be at the end of this season, he'll have been at the club for three years by then so if we hang onto him and he doesn't measure up in 2019 his value will be approaching zero.
Better to play him and see what he's made of.

It won't be at the end of this season, he'll have been at the club for three years by then so if we hang onto him and he doesn't measure up in 2019 his value will be approaching zero.
Better to play him and see what he's made of.

But this is where our list management in the past has failed us.

i.e. in 2019, we might be looking at the following decision.

Harry Mckay
vs
Alex Silvagni
vs
Sam Rowe
vs
Levi Casboult
vs
Cam O'shea
vs
Aaron Mullet
vs
Matt Shaw
vs
Patrick Kerr
vs
Kade Simpson (looks evergreen for now, but for how long?)
vs
Matthew Lobbe
vs
Andrew Phillips
vs
Any other trades/free agents or draftees.

The list is actually quite lengthy and whilst I would be reluctant to move on too many, sometimes you move on whats better value.

For me, the only trade out that could cause someone to part with something, is Levi Casboult.  Now, I know hes not worth blah blah blah, but if Zach Tuohy can get us a first rounder, you never know what Casboult can get.

Also, I wouldnt be chopping Mckay without looking at the opportunity cost.

The pure logistics of list management will mean SOS will have to start moving on some of his own in the near future.

one player who could get us good draft value is plowman, i would trade him for the right deal.To me has been flying under the radar (weitering and jones) taking all the heat but wat has he done that makes him so special,can any1 mention a game where LP dominated

But this is where our list management in the past has failed us.
The list is actually quite lengthy and whilst I would be reluctant to move on too many, sometimes you move on whats better value.

For me, the only trade out that could cause someone to part with something, is Levi Casboult.  Now, I know hes not worth blah blah blah, but if Zach Tuohy can get us a first rounder, you never know what Casboult can get.

Also, I wouldnt be chopping Mckay without looking at the opportunity cost.

It's got me beaten why a lot of Carlton supporters still think that Levi has trade value.
As for Tuohy, he was 26 years old, durable, tough,  and with excellent skills.
He was AA nominated in 2017 and Geelong's first rounder was never going to be a top 10 pick, it's highly debatable whether we got full value for him but clubs often lose out when out of contract players want to leave.
If we want to trade in someone decent or get a draft pick worth having we need to forget about swapping Casboult, Mullet, Phillips or any other fringe players we've got clogging up our list, someone like McKay is the only commodity we have with market appeal.

one player who could get us good draft value is plowman, i would trade him for the right deal.To me has been flying under the radar (weitering and jones) taking all the heat but wat has he done that makes him so special,can any1 mention a game where LP dominated

I agree, not so much Plowman specifically but he's the type of player who could attract interest.
We're a bottom four club, no one will be interested in our flotsam and jetsam.

Particularly when our flotsam and jetsam has already come from other clubs

It won't be at the end of this season, he'll have been at the club for three years by then so if we hang onto him and he doesn't measure up in 2019 his value will be approaching zero.
Better to play him and see what he's made of.

For a midfielder or utility I think 3 years is enough, most 200cm types are not much good until they are 23 or 24, that's the five year or more mark! I'm afraid that is just reality for most tall KPPs or typical Rucks.

Joe Daniher was pretty much a spud for his first 4 years, but they were playing him in the 1s.

I'll say this though, what I have seen of De Koning I have him way ahead of McKay in terms of work rate and mobility. If De Koning was a big stronger, he may even have Kerr covered. When Lobbe returns things will get very interesting at VFL level, it's not clear to me who stays and who goes, I suspect Kerr deserves to stay!

We may find that when Phillips and Lobbe are up and about Kreuzer will get mothballed.

De Koning is not quite as good at ground level as McKay, but then again McKay only makes an effort at ground level occasionally which is part of his current problem.

Kerr is probably the weakest of the three at ground level, but the strongest overhead and the hardest worker, Kerr has a bit more footy smarts I suppose he needs them not having a natural height advantage.

Kerr creates opportunities for team-mates, McKay takes advantage of them!

I really do not understand why Kerr hasn't yet got a gig, he'd work well with Charlie, the coaches must have a reason we cannot see.

The other thing I like about Kerr is he is a redhead, most seasoned and successful redheads are as hard as nails, they(Inclusive of all redheads) seem to be all one way or the other, soft as butter or hard as concrete!

For a midfielder or utility I think 3 years is enough, most 200cm types are not much good until they are 23 or 24, that's the five year or more mark! I'm afraid that is just reality for most tall KPPs or typical Rucks.

Joe Daniher was pretty much a spud for his first 4 years, but they were playing him in the 1s.

Daniher was showing plenty in his first two seasons, McKay can't get a game in a bottom side which struggles to kick more than 60 points.
It's nonsense that tall players are no good until they're 24 or 25, the good ones don't take that long.

It's nonsense that tall players are no good until they're 24 or 25, the good ones don't take that long.

Can you provide some examples, that aren't named Franklin? Even Franklin was a highlight reel player until about his 4th season!

Showing "signs" or being "good" are pretty subjective terms B4L, what are the numbers, what is "good"?

Would you say,

Taylor Walker
Josh Jenkins
Josh Kennedy
Jack Riewoldt
Jarryd Roughead

None of them much chop in terms of being statistically good until after season 3 or 4, highlights sure, but before season 4 nothing of real substance!

I could add,

Charlie Dixon
Jarrad Waite
Tom Hawkins
Jack Darling

but they were even slower starters!

That means most of them come good around 23 or older, McKay is a bottom ager, he'll be 23 at the end of 2020! And fairness to McKay, most of the above were playing in and around established older players who could show them the ropes! Do we judge McKay by what he learns off our older KPFs, that being primarily Levi?

Sort of sucks doesn't it, I'm starting to see what Judd meant!

Don't forget McKay missed his whole first season with a back injury also.

With very few exceptions it takes all players until their third season to hit their straps regardless of height, Diesel Williams won the MVP in his first season and Carey was Captain of North at 20, but they were once in a generation footballers.
Kouta played 50 reserve games, Cripps didn't show a great deal until year three, big Harry can get himself into gear any time he likes as far as I'm concerned, the sooner the better.

With very few exceptions it takes all players until their third season to hit their straps regardless of height, Diesel Williams won the MVP in his first season and Carey was Captain of North at 20, but they were once in a generation footballers.
Kouta played 50 reserve games, Cripps didn't show a great deal until year three, big Harry can get himself into gear any time he likes as far as I'm concerned, the sooner the better.

B4L, Diesel Williams was 21 in his first season and had come through VFL level competitions playing against men. Also the mentoring effect, he played besides guys like Ablett Snr, Bruns, Turner, Peake, Yeates, Bews and Neal. Not a spud amongst them!

I don't have to tell you who Kouta had to learn off.

Modern kids are 18, and come out of the TAC Cup playing against boys, so you can understand why many AFL clubs want a Reserves competition.

We'd probably kill to have some experience Harry could play alongside!

With very few exceptions it takes all players until their third season to hit their straps regardless of height, Diesel Williams won the MVP in his first season and Carey was Captain of North at 20, but they were once in a generation footballers.
Kouta played 50 reserve games, Cripps didn't show a great deal until year three, big Harry can get himself into gear any time he likes as far as I'm concerned, the sooner the better.

Year 2.

He broke his leg in year 1 (debut 2014).

Year 2 he hit the ground running and we all realised we had a live one.  He won the John Nicholls medal in 2015.

Personally, I don't think Cripps is a valid example to compare any other AFL player against, you cannot use him in a comparison to other mids, and he's not like any other KPP his size.

Even so he got to play besides Judd! ;)

No one wants to see Harry make the grade more than I do believe me, it's just that I've heard the big blokes take longer line plenty of times over the years and it's usually just a wish and a hope, Hampson and De Luca come to mind but it's been said about other duds we've had around the place.
I'd be happy enough if he could just get a game, but it's a worry that he can't force his way into such a poorly performed side and it's not as if he's injured.
All I'm saying is that he needs to shape up otherwise we'd be better off cutting our losses while he might still have some trade value, in the position we find ourselves there's no room for wishful thinking.

What trade value? He's shown nothing (or close to nothing) and can't force his way into a struggling club that can't hit the scoreboard? If I was an opposition list manager I'd be offering a late third round or fourth round pick for him

What trade value? He's shown nothing (or close to nothing) and can't force his way into a struggling club that can't hit the scoreboard? If I was an opposition list manager I'd be offering a late third round or fourth round pick for him

Which is more than we got for Watson and a few others.

Don't forget McKay missed his whole first season with a back injury also.

Indeed. He'd not long got back on the park when he sustained a toe injury IIRC
It doesn't make sense including the time injured as time developing.

I wouldn't be giving up on H just yet, let's see how he goes with a consistent run of training and playing.

No one wants to see Harry make the grade more than I do believe me, it's just that I've heard the big blokes take longer line plenty of times over the years and it's usually just a wish and a hope, Hampson and De Luca come to mind but it's been said about other duds we've had around the place.
I'd be happy enough if he could just get a game, but it's a worry that he can't force his way into such a poorly performed side and it's not as if he's injured.
All I'm saying is that he needs to shape up otherwise we'd be better off cutting our losses while he might still have some trade value, in the position we find ourselves there's no room for wishful thinking.

Its a point worth highlighting.

We have a history of hanging onto blokes expecting...hoping...praying....they come on and end up getting nothing for them. Either out on the field or at the trade table.
Adam Hartlett is the perfect example. How many years was he on our list? How many games did he play? Were any of them good??

For those playing at home...
5 years
11 games
None of them good.

Cant believe he played that many, I guessed four.

Cant believe he played that many, I guessed four.

Never played more than 4 in any given year.

2007 - 2009, 4, 4 and 3 (in the year we lost Whitnall and JK)

It’s obviously a no to trading Harry McKay - in fact it’s absolute madness.

We’ll get lowballed now, so there’s no harm in waiting to see whether he develops. Worst outcome is that we get lowballed in the future.

Never played more than 4 in any given year.

2007 - 2009, 4, 4 and 3 (in the year we lost Whitnall and JK)

I can't believe we didn't play him more.  He wasn't that bad and could kick it like a mule.

It’s obviously a no to trading Harry McKay - in fact it’s absolute madness.

We’ll get lowballed now, so there’s no harm in waiting to see whether he develops. Worst outcome is that we get lowballed in the future.

The problem with that is that it's a no to trading anyone of any value according to most Carlton supporters, so how can we expect to trade anyone in who's half way decent.
Half of our list isn't AFL standard so there's no point hawking any of them around, so we just keep on trading in hacks and rejects in exchange for low draft picks and the sorry mess continues.

The problem with that is that it's a no to trading anyone of any value according to most Carlton supporters, so how can we expect to trade anyone in who's half way decent.
Half of our list isn't AFL standard so there's no point hawking any of them around, so we just keep on trading in hacks and rejects in exchange for low draft picks and the sorry mess continues.

Who do you want to trade him for?

Who’s going to replace him?

Who do you want to trade him for?

Who’s going to replace him?

I don't want to trade him unless we get to the end of this season and he's still showing four fifths of not much.
At that point his value would be limited but at the end of 2019 it would be zero, so we could at least salvage something.
Footscray traded Griffin, their captain, for Boyd, and some years ago North traded their captain for Shannon Grant, you have to give something to get something.
Unless we want to keep trading in the likes of Sumner, Smedts and Wiley, which has worked out well.

I don't want to trade him unless we get to the end of this season and he's still showing four fifths of not much.
At that point his value would be limited but at the end of 2019 it would be zero, so we could at least salvage something.
Footscray traded Griffin, their captain, for Boyd, and some years ago North traded their captain for Shannon Grant, you have to give something to get something.
Unless we want to keep trading in the likes of Sumner, Smedts and Wiley, which has worked out well.

B4L if Harry has not shown anything by the end of the year I suspect his trade value would be close to zero anyway without the need to provide a further year's demonstration. There would always be a risk though that some sharp-eyed list manager saw something in him that a club thought could be developed. I can't see that translating into anything of real value for us though.

I can't believe we didn't play him more.  He wasn't that bad and could kick it like a mule.

Wasn't he injured (soft tissue) all the time?

Wasn't he injured (soft tissue) all the time?

Yep...couldnt stay on the park.....

I don't want to trade him unless we get to the end of this season and he's still showing four fifths of not much.
At that point his value would be limited but at the end of 2019 it would be zero, so we could at least salvage something.
Footscray traded Griffin, their captain, for Boyd, and some years ago North traded their captain for Shannon Grant, you have to give something to get something.
Unless we want to keep trading in the likes of Sumner, Smedts and Wiley, which has worked out well.

I get the limited value if we wait ‘too long’.

 I’m concerned that being played in the twos is doing him no favours and given how bad our delivery to forwards is in the seniors, I can only imagine how bad it is in the twos.

I’d be hanging on to him. His value to us will by far exceed his value to another team (unless he proves himself in which case why would trade him)

B4L if Harry has not shown anything by the end of the year I suspect his trade value would be close to zero anyway without the need to provide a further year's demonstration. There would always be a risk though that some sharp-eyed list manager saw something in him that a club thought could be developed. I can't see that translating into anything of real value for us though.

Dane Swan and Corey Enright were 4th round picks, in football parlance that's close to zero but just because we haven't jagged a good player low in the draft since Ryan Houlihan it doesn't mean that we can't in the future.
I think that Williamson was pick 60 odd and he looks OK.
It would be better than what we usually get, which is nothing.
Let's not forget that Richmond gave us pick 30 odd for Hampson, which is near enough to what we paid for Docherty, and no matter how bad McKay proves to be he can't be a worse footballer than Hammer.

Dane Swan and Corey Enright were 4th round picks, in football parlance that's close to zero but just because we haven't jagged a good player low in the draft since Ryan Houlihan it doesn't mean that we can't in the future.
I think that Williamson was pick 60 odd and he looks OK.
It would be better than what we usually get, which is nothing.
Let's not forget that Richmond gave us pick 30 odd for Hampson, which is near enough to what we paid for Docherty, and no matter how bad McKay proves to be he can't be a worse footballer than Hammer.

Well I guess it's roll of the dice whichever way we decide to go. If we try to unload him this year then hopefully we would have someone very specific and relevant in mind to fill his spot. I'll give him a few more weeks to impress before placing my bet.

Well I guess it's roll of the dice whichever way we decide to go. If we try to unload him this year then hopefully we would have someone very specific and relevant in mind to fill his spot. I'll give him a few more weeks to impress before placing my bet.

No one will be making any decisions on him for another three months at least, least of all me.
I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I think we need to be more aggressive in our approach to list management and get rid of the idea that there are sacred cows who simply can't be traded.
Richmond traded out Deledio in 2016 which was a pretty big call but it turns out that it was a good one.

Dane Swan and Corey Enright were 4th round picks, in football parlance that's close to zero but just because we haven't jagged a good player low in the draft since Ryan Houlihan it doesn't mean that we can't in the future.
I think that Williamson was pick 60 odd and he looks OK.
It would be better than what we usually get, which is nothing.
Let's not forget that Richmond gave us pick 30 odd for Hampson, which is near enough to what we paid for Docherty, and no matter how bad McKay proves to be he can't be a worse footballer than Hammer.

For me thats ignoring horses for courses.  We dont have the key forward stocks to simply tip one out particularly when he appears better than most of the ones we have drafted before him (aside from Charlie Curnow) and considering hes big enough to be a part time ruckman as well, that is another reason to persist that wee bit longer. 

Its also acceptable to gamble and lose any future value so long as you aren't doing it every single time and every type of player. i.e. Cameron Polson.  Hes either up to it, or hes out at the end of this year.

One last bit of food for thought.  Would we lose anything, by hanging onto Mckay, and playing him in place of Levi next season?

If the answer is yes, then you trade him for what you can get and move on.  If the answer is no, then you keep him, and next season give him the task of dislodging Levi to win his spot in the team.  If he does it, hes in.  If not, then hes out.

Problem is that we would get nothing for Casboult,  maybe a third rounder if we were really lucky.

Rather put games into McKay and Kerr.

Problem is that we would get nothing for Casboult,  maybe a third rounder if we were really lucky.

Rather put games into McKay and Kerr.

Not for a couple more games as Levi's on 98 games..lol.

Somebody’s been reading this thread. Herald Sun today saying we’re looking at FAs.

Somebody’s been reading this thread. Herald Sun today saying we’re looking at FAs.

Going to try for Josh Kelly again....

With what?

Going to try for Josh Kelly again....

Gaff put on a pretty good display yesterday.

Wonder what it would cost to get him across....

Gaff put on a pretty good display yesterday.

Wonder what it would cost to get him across....

He's a smooth player, but strictly a bruise free, offensive type IMO. Nothing wrong with that if you have the right support around you, but I'm not sure if we do. 

While watching O'Brien's second game of AFL footy last night the thought popped into my head that he could be as good as Gaff in 2-3 years, similar type in my book

Gaff put on a pretty good display yesterday.

Wonder what it would cost to get him across....

Gaff is very outside and soft, Kelly probably isnt anything massive in the bash an crash stuff either but can win the footy in close, everyone is talking about our kids needing 100 games but if you put  a 4 year time frame on that a player like Cripps will be 27 and banged up big time, we need to get him some quality help at the coalface and a mid who has size and strength....

Gaff is very outside and soft, Kelly probably isnt anything massive in the bash an crash stuff either but can win the footy in close, everyone is talking about our kids needing 100 games but if you put  a 4 year time frame on that a player like Cripps will be 27 and banged up big time, we need to get him some quality help at the coalface and a mid who has size and strength....

Agree completely, just one is a FA the other will cost our first pick. That’s why I wouldn’t mind trying to get Guthrie as aFA too

Agree completely, just one is a FA the other will cost our first pick. That’s why I wouldn’t mind trying to get Guthrie as aFA too

x2...like Cam Guthrie as a player, intelligent and can get the footy use, it and mind a man, he was a big fan of Chris judd as we know via the jumper swap so maybe Juddy can convince him to
make the move....

x2...like Cam Guthrie as a player, intelligent and can get the footy use, it and mind a man, he was a big fan of Chris judd as we know via the jumper swap so maybe Juddy can convince him to
make the move....

Give him the no 5?  ;)

Maybe we'd have to take his kid brother as well?