Make sure you use this thread when the game finishes.
Rnd 9 - WB - Marvel - L Tick
Rnd 10 - Coll - G - L Tick
Rnd 11 - Syd - SCG - L Tick
Rnd 12 - Melb - G - L Tick
Rnd 9 - WB - Marvel - L Tick
Rnd 10 - Coll - G - L Tick
Rnd 11 - Syd - SCG - L Tick
Rnd 12 - Melb - G - L Tick
Bombers?
Bombers?
I had it as a W but Im not so sure any more
Kemp Weiters and H were positives tonight.
Never want to see Obrien, Boyd and dare I say it Young? wear a Carlton jumper again!
Chuck in MacGovern as well. Utter liability in every position.
Binns for LoB please. Seen enough.
Chuck in MacGovern as well. Utter liability in every position.
Binns for LoB please. Seen enough.
Yep and Marchbank for McGovern absolutely hopeless
Goals for Carlton
R12: 6
R11: 6
R10: 7
R9: 8
R8: 11
R7: 9......from Charlie alone! 23 for the team.
Charlies haul against West Coast has been better than the entire team total 4 of the next 5 weeks.
What has happened to our dual coleman medalists??
No good small pressure forwards/ground level players is killing us and having Williams and Martin permanently injured adds to the agony. We tried hard but we just do not look up to it currently.
Usual story, delivery in F50 awful, nothing other than the big two. Owies etc stank.
Really, the other mob were much better and we are, put simply, crap.
The most disappointing season of the last 20 as we were ready to go and expecting so much better. Such a letdown. At least other years we knew we were crap or not quite ready. Playing the worst brand of footy imaginable, can't kick a goal and seemingly don't care where the ball goes when we have it. Thought we were good for top 4 to 6 this year. Instead we will be 14th by the ending of the weekend with 5 successive losses.
How far backwards can one side go.
Motlop pressures but he can't tackle.
Owies has really improved this year.
Cripps and Walsh have no defensive side and their offence is C grade at the moment.
I thought this game was big moment this game for Young and SoJ, and I'm afraid neither stood up.
Stupid stupid MC decision to go into this game with TDK and SoJ, I assume Mirkov and pretty much any other ruck option is injured and unavailable.
I'll be surprised if we haven't lost another 3 or 4 players tonight to injuries.
I thought this game was big moment this game for Young and SoJ, and I'm afraid neither stood up.
Stupid stupid MC decision to go into this game with TDK and SoJ, I assume Mirkov and pretty much any other ruck option is injured and unavailable.
I'll be surprised if we haven't lost another 3 or 4 players tonight to injuries.
TDK did well considering he was battling the double Gs all night, showed he belongs and we were stupid to drop him.
Shawny summed it up in the in game thread when he said we are a middle tier side at best.
TDK did well considering he was battling the double Gs all night, showed he belongs and we were stupid to drop him.
I doubt we'll retain him now.
We would have been slaughtered tonight if not for Weiters, McGovern and Kemp, Kemp's best game for the club.
It looks like Cerra is our only fit midfielder, all the others look broken! Walsh had no pre-season it's catching up on him, Cripps looks injured, Kennedy is injured.
The most disappointing season of the last 20 as we were ready to go and expecting so much better. Such a letdown. At least other years we knew we were crap or not quite ready. Playing the worst brand of footy imaginable, can't kick a goal and seemingly don't care where the ball goes when we have it. Thought we were good for top 4 to 6 this year. Instead we will be 14th by the ending of the weekend with 5 successive losses.
How far backwards can one side go.
We have the credentials to go all the way - backwards.
The most disappointing season of the last 20 as we were ready to go and expecting so much better. Such a letdown. At least other years we knew we were crap or not quite ready. Playing the worst brand of footy imaginable, can't kick a goal and seemingly don't care where the ball goes when we have it. Thought we were good for top 4 to 6 this year. Instead we will be 14th by the ending of the weekend with 5 successive losses.
How far backwards can one side go.
Yep.....it was a crap standard game and we didnt have to be on by much to beat Melbourne who were not that great and would have got smashed by a lot of other teams but we are just so off at the moment we cant play one solid quarter of football that isnt full of silly costly mistakes.
Motlop pressures but he can't tackle.
Owies has really improved this year.
Cripps and Walsh have no defensive side and their offence is C grade at the moment.
Cerra was our best mid by a very long way, almost played a lone hand. We just need more centre clearances and goals from the mids, small fwds are non existent and we dont have a HFFer who can be dangerous.
In the end, they kicked more poorly than us in front of goal (if that's even possible) and should have won by 5-6 goals.
Oh well, they can sook it up tonight, get up tomorrow morning and load up again.
Every freakin' time O'Brien took a mark, he stood still and slowed everything down and then more times than not, kicked it directly to a Dees player.
WTF ???
Who thought it was a good idea to give him a rookie contract ?? Whoever you are, you should be sacked straight after O'Brien is !!
We need to scour the land in the off-season for another two fowards, not midgets, players of mid-size who can mark & kick goals. Every time we looked like we were going to get on a roll, Fritzch or Van Royen marked and kicked a goal. We need players like them, we are two predictable with the current Curnow/McKay combo because if they fail, so does the whole team. The move of Young to the forwardline completely changed the whole dynamic which exemplifies why we need another couple of capable soldiers..
I'm really struggling with Acres, turns it over too often for my liking.
And Dow is not out of his depth at this level, he just looks like he lacks a bit of confidence which is to be expected after the way he has been sent to purgatory.
We do have some dumb footballers though, wrong options kill us every week.
There was some very good passages of play which was an improvement on previous weeks but until we find a way to kick at least 10-12 goals per week, we are never a chance.
Turned it over a lot I thought which dulled the gloss on his game
Better get ready for next week. A loss to Essendon is unacceptable to our supporters.
I doubt we'll retain him now.
We would have been slaughtered tonight if not for Weiters, McGovern and Kemp, Kemp's best game for the club.
It looks like Cerra is our only fit midfielder, all the others look broken! Walsh had no pre-season it's catching up on him, Cripps looks injured, Kennedy is injured.
Yep, our team tonight felt like:
FB: Kemp Weiters Gov
C: Cerra
R: TDK
FF: H
We need players like them, we are twotoo predictable with the current Curnow/McKay combo because if they fail, so does the whole team.
I wouldn't say our twin talls have failed, the problem as I see it is that when they are having bog ordinary games, the type of game that forms more than 1/2 a normal season, we are getting stuff all from the other forwards and almost nothing from the Mids / On Ball crew.
Very pleased for big H. At least someone shows they can "go to work on it" and actually improve.
Also thought Motlop and Owies worked hard. Especially further up the ground. Weiters is back. Kemp is in the best 22.
Otherwise we're destined for a top 4 pick. Just hope there's not too many decent F/S and state discounts in the draft.
Disappointed is a massive understatement.
Dow got a big cheer when he came on and again every time he got a good possession.
There was that one poor mis-kick that resulted in a goal but there were lots of poor kicks under pressure by others.
The last pass to McKay was a good one.
Now what the cheerring shows is that, for all his faults, many supporters don't think he's been given a fair deal in terms of game time.
While supporters shouldn't be determining match selections it can be another burden, in terms of pressure, on those making the decisions.
We may as well play players like Dow, even if we are planning on letting him go at the end of the year.
We'll either up his trade value
Decide he's worth keeping.
...or justify any reasons we might have for letting him go.
No-one will be able to say we didn't give him a chance.
I personally don't think we'll lose a lot by playing him.
He wasn't outstanding but he did contribute more than some.
Now what the cheerring shows is that, for all his faults, many supporters don't think he's been given a fair deal in terms of game time.
Undoubtedly this is true, but the vast bulk of supporters never watch a VFL game, so those opinions have to be largely ignored!
Better get ready for next week. A loss to Essendon is unacceptable to our supporters.
A loss to Essendon is where Bolton fell over.
How many 4q i50's went directly to their defenders. That's not acceptable.
Wait, it's exactly what we did last week. Dumb and dumber..
Undoubtedly this is true, but the vast bulk of supporters never watch a VFL game, so those opinions have to be largely ignored!
Absolutely. However he was our first pick, number 3? In that draft. And he’s been BOG mostly in VFL games yet the same guys get a run, this one does not get a look in 🤷🏻♀️
Need a player like Fritsch who can be that reliable creative inbetween sized forward rather than just have all talls(Charlie and Harry) and all smalls(Motlop, Owies etc) given our smalls have zero marking ability and dont get much ground ball.
Absolutely. However he was our first pick, number 3? In that draft. And he’s been BOG mostly in VFL games yet the same guys get a run, this one does not get a look in 🤷🏻♀️
He might be BoG of the Carlton listed players, but often our VFL team is best serviced by the VFL players which for me has always been a problem.
Also, CFC, you have killed our enjoyment of watching our team - yes we want to win but if we don’t we at least want to enjoy the journey. Now we enjoy uhhhhhh NOTHING!
Okay, positives - Weiters was great…..
Uhhhhh
HARRY! Stoked for him! Great game 👏🏽
Didn’t realise a great game by H meant a nothing game by Charlie?
CFC
please, let them loose, ffs. You’re killing us, watching these poor blokes run around with NFI!
I call bulldust. He showed a heck of a lot more than some very highly rated and very much underperforming players ATM. He needs to play a decent block of games and get a chance to show his worth.
MacGovern is dropping pies, holds it for eternity killing momentum then fluffs the disposal. We can't carry this spud any longer. Kemp is a far better player anyways
What was that famous line?
DONT THINK—— DO!
I feel Sorry for the players, they hesitate way too much. They don’t do the basics and THINK.
It’s sad to watch.
Anyway I’m not apportioning blame, just trying to understand wtf is going on!
The game plan is in tatters and our season is officially over
There is simply not enough movement ahead of the ball and limited defensive structure behind it - Carlton have absolutely no idea how to create space for players to run into and lack creativity and dare. We are boring and predictable to our opposition and everybody watching the game.
Acres is so slow and is officially a liability
Walsh has fallen so far it’s not funny, ditto Kennedy
Our rucks and small forwards are not where we need them to be
Dow is in our top 10 and we play him in the 2s??
All so depressing
Also just out of curiosity who makes up the Match Committee each week? Is it the same guys every week?
HARRY! Stoked for him! Great game 👏🏽
Played well but Melbourne helped a lot by playing Tomlinson against him.
I can't get out of my mind a passage of play in the second quarter when we ran the ball close to the half forward line and our player chose to kick long and high to Motlop who was caught out standing between two Melbourne players who were at least 15 centimetres taller.
Of course the ball was immediately sent back to their forward line with our players out of position.
The only people I can commend are our fitness staff. Because of brain fades and such poor skill levels which cause so many turnovers during a game, our players must expend at least twenty five percent more energy than the opposition players, yet they are able to keep disappointing supporters for the full four quarters.
The game plan is in tatters - someone better tell Voss that it has been found at last.
Dow is in our top 10 - I beg to differ -and we play him in the 2s - because that is where he is most suited.
Cripps and Walsh were very average as bad as small forwards and Lob that cost us a couple of goals.
If Cripps doesn't lead by example this team will lose.
On the positives - Kemp continues to grow his game, I felt that Cerra tried to do it all himself and stood up with no support
Saad starting to get back some form. TDK competed well and s a big improvement from beginning of the year
How many 4q i50's went directly to their defenders. That's not acceptable.
9
The boys gave good effort and never gave up, against what is a star studded, experienced, stable, premiership winning top 4 team, which has been up and about for a while now. But it's the same old story : ball use, ball use and ball use. Whether this is a time issue or a personnel issue, I have no idea.
The boys gave good effort and never gave up, against what is a star studded, experienced, stable, premiership winning top 4 team, which has been up and about for a while now. But it's the same old story : ball use, ball use and ball use. Whether this is a time issue or a personnel issue, I have no idea.
I didn't doubt the effort, but I thought both sides were very average. Melbourne also had a lot of significant outs, but IMHO, they looked like a middle of the pack team last night.
On the times when we took the game on and ran, we looked ok. But it was the same old story for 90% of the night - stagnant, predictable football, which is so easy to defend against.
One last thing - LOB, hand in the #4 guernsey, son, just not up to it. Get the Binns kid in for the rest of the year.
I can't get out of my mind a passage of play in the second quarter when we ran the ball close to the half forward line and our player chose to kick long and high to Motlop who was caught out standing between two Melbourne players who were at least 15 centimetres taller.
Of course the ball was immediately sent back to their forward line with our players out of position.
The only people I can commend are our fitness staff. Because of brain fades and such poor skill levels which cause so many turnovers during a game, our players must expend at least twenty five percent more energy than the opposition players, yet they are able to keep disappointing supporters for the full four quarters.
I vividly recall that kick and remarking to myself at the time "WTF!".
Need a player like Fritsch who can be that reliable creative inbetween sized forward rather than just have all talls(Charlie and Harry) and all smalls(Motlop, Owies etc) given our smalls have zero marking ability and dont get much ground ball.
I agree in principle but Fritsch missed a couple of sodas last night and can be a bit too selfish at times imo. He does definitely impact though, especially when games are in the balance.
Voss has us playing a safe slow wide gameplan which typically is used when coaches don’t trust they teams ball use see their as having major holes and lacking leg speed. This gameplan reduces mistakes and keep the opposition to as low a score as possible. Even if we snare a win It’s awful to watch. He knows we are slow and can get caught badly on turnovers esp thru the middle so we only dare go there when the game is pretty much over and have nothing to lose. There is no flair no exciting passages of play. Boring and frustrating for fans to watch a list that is supposed to be deeply entrenched in finals this year play this sort of brand.
Haven’t even hit the bye and finals are now gone and we may finish the season just a few positions above the basket case teams.
I’ve finally now lost the passion I had and don’t get anywhere near as annoyed when we lose cause i fully expect it now. I still love my club and always will but I now have accepted this rebuild is a fail and the current list will not be successful in any sense of the word. Worst part is the players think the same and play accordingly.
Voss has us playing a safe slow wide gameplan which typically is used when coaches don’t trust they teams ball use see their as having major holes and lacking leg speed. This gameplan reduces mistakes and keep the opposition to as low a score as possible. Even if we snare a win It’s awful to watch. He knows we are slow and can get caught badly on turnovers esp thru the middle so we only dare go there when the game is pretty much over and have nothing to lose. There is no flair no exciting passages of play. Boring and frustrating for fans to watch a list that is supposed to be deeply entrenched in finals this year play this sort of brand.
Haven’t even hit the bye and finals are now gone and we may finish the season just a few positions above the basket case teams.
I’ve finally now lost the passion I had and don’t get anywhere near as annoyed when we lose cause i fully expect it now. I still love my club and always will but I now have accepted this rebuild is a fail and the current list will not be successful in any sense of the word. Worst part is the players think the same and play accordingly.
This is unfortunately an accurate assessment of the situation imo. I now feel that each game is an exercise in futility and am resigned to feeling that there is no visible way out of the present wilderness. The club just looks lost.
I agree in principle but Fritsch missed a couple of sodas last night and can be a bit too selfish at times imo. He does definitely impact though, especially when games are in the balance.
Plays well in big games eg GF and is usually a good kick.
For a VFL player who cost nothing he was a great pickup and I agree can be selfish but good forwards usually are.
Just a bit to lighten the mood... ;D
A couple of weeks ago DeKoning kicked the ball the wrong way in the VFL game against Williamstown
https://twitter.com/7AFL/status/1660114145927213056
I'd have to see it again, and it might be hard to find because I'm not even sure what quarter it happened, but....
I think he almost did it again last night before correcting himself and heading back to the right side of the mark.
Plays well in big games eg GF and is usually a good kick.
For a VFL player who cost nothing he was a great pickup and I agree can be selfish but good forwards usually are.
Great recruiting!
I thought TdK tried his guts out and really took a step forwards. That has to be the minimum effort every week
8 more wins may get us finals. On paper it's doable beating everyone we think we can beat (gold coast twice, essendon, gws again, hawthorn, St. Kilda, one of Melbourne, Collingwood, freo or Port adelaide and I forget the rest but 8 wins is very doable based on our run home) but the way we are currently performing makes it seem unlikely. Thing is form can turn pretty fast and I really hope we are in conservation mods until the second half of the year. Finals isn't done and dusted for us yet so I wouldn't be giving up on that just yet but the next two weeks have become really crucial.
Regarding our play, we have lost some of that excitement and dare but im convinced that's got to do more with our overall list health because the boys seem to want to go but seem incapable rather than anything else.
It can turnaround, we need to scrape a win against the bombers, and then get up over GC before the bye and then get rolling afterwards. Very doable. Only team I really fear in our run home is Port adelaide but unfortunately I've lost trust in us to be able to do it.
We play like a side that has great effort, commitment and passion for... minimizing the losing margin.
I think it will probably take 14 wins to make finals, Thry.
We have an extra game this season so play 23 games per club.
Voss has us playing a safe slow wide gameplan which typically is used when coaches don’t trust they teams ball use see their as having major holes and lacking leg speed. This gameplan reduces mistakes and keep the opposition to as low a score as possible. Even if we snare a win It’s awful to watch. He knows we are slow and can get caught badly on turnovers esp thru the middle so we only dare go there when the game is pretty much over and have nothing to lose. There is no flair no exciting passages of play. Boring and frustrating for fans to watch a list that is supposed to be deeply entrenched in finals this year play this sort of brand.
Haven’t even hit the bye and finals are now gone and we may finish the season just a few positions above the basket case teams.
I’ve finally now lost the passion I had and don’t get anywhere near as annoyed when we lose cause i fully expect it now. I still love my club and always will but I now have accepted this rebuild is a fail and the current list will not be successful in any sense of the word. Worst part is the players think the same and play accordingly.
Problem will be what's to come with our cap locked in with big contracts giving us no wriggle room to bring in top players and rebuilding teams like Hawthorn, Nth etc improving and passing us. It's actually a serious concern and requires more than sacking the coach as a solution...
I think it will probably take 14 wins to make finals, Thry.
thats not the point though lods. With 8 wins we are still a moon shot of making it. It will put us on 12.5 wins. Also I just checked ladders going back at least 5 seasons. You haven't needed more than 12 wins to make finals any year going back to 2018. Why is this year going to need 14 wins to make it?
No point just giving it up, from here the boys dig deep or we play more developing talent and try push for it.
Problem will be what's to come with our cap locked in with big contracts giving us no wriggle room to bring in top players and rebuilding teams like Hawthorn, Nth etc improving and passing us. It's actually a serious concern and requires more than sacking the coach as a solution...
Agree. I would not at all be surprised to see a similar off-season trade period to pies had a few years back which at the time had supporters reeling yet now looks like a genius stroke. We will try and same but probably not get the turn in performance they did.
Reckon at least 2 of the bigger names may just be quietly shopped around to see what we can get. Desperately need leg speed imo and ball use and can’t get any quick fix when we have room in the cap. Room will have to be made one way or another.
Finals are gone gents. Our list our form will not turnaround overnight. We had opportunities in the last month to show even just once in one of the games what we can do and despite trying we just don’t have it. Never looked likely in any of those do or die games and the club would have know how much we needed a few wins in that batch and not getting it done has closed any confidence the side has. They now know they are not good enough still.
Swans game was the same as the crows one last year - that one determined our fate.
It's important to bear in mind that one of the few pieces of the Teague review that was made public was the fact that he focussed too much on offence and not enough on defence. Clearly Voss was brought in to rectify that, and one way of achieving that is to play safe, keepings off and deny the opposition the ball. I can see the logic, and I can also see that he is trying to get the boys to understand the mood of the game at particular moments, when to run and gun and when to go safe. Voss is following the standard and in vogue coaching mantra of wanting us to be a "team that is hard to play against" and wanting to build from a solid base of contest and defence. Clearly we're a good way away from implementing that consistently.
Geelong and Melbourne were both slammed for the same thing the year before their flags.
thats not the point though lods. With 8 wins we are still a moon shot of making it. It will put us on 12.5 wins. Also I just checked ladders going back at least 5 seasons. You haven't needed more than 12 wins to make finals any year going back to 2018. Why is this year going to need 14 wins to make it?
No point just giving it up, from here the boys dig deep or we play more developing talent and try push for it.
12.5 may do it
12-13 is usually the standard.
It's been done with less.
But there's an extra game this year.
2020 there were only 17 games so don't count that.
Try this little exercise.
Do a ladder predictor...give us the 12.5 wins
Where do we finish?
How many wins make the 8?
12.5 may do it
12-13 is usually the standard.
It's been done with less.
But there's an extra game this year.
2020 there were only 17 games so don't count that.
Try this little exercise.
Do a ladder predictor...give us the 12.5 wins
Where do we finish?
How many wins make the 8?
Sorry Lods, your being fanciful. I dont need to do a ladder predictor, I did one for you all 4-5 weeks ago:
https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=6381.0
The year was over from a finals perspective then. Even that prediction seems ambitious now, we will be lucky to eek our 8 or 9 wins.
What was the crowd size last night? Anyone go?
I wasn’t disappointed to not be there. It looked like a miserable frustrating game to sit through in the cold.
Crowd was 49,872 and it was a Demons home game.
Voss has us playing a safe slow wide gameplan which typically is used when coaches don’t trust they teams ball use see their as having major holes and lacking leg speed. This gameplan reduces mistakes and keep the opposition to as low a score as possible. Even if we snare a win It’s awful to watch. He knows we are slow and can get caught badly on turnovers esp thru the middle so we only dare go there when the game is pretty much over and have nothing to lose. There is no flair no exciting passages of play. Boring and frustrating for fans to watch a list that is supposed to be deeply entrenched in finals this year play this sort of brand.
Haven’t even hit the bye and finals are now gone and we may finish the season just a few positions above the basket case teams.
I’ve finally now lost the passion I had and don’t get anywhere near as annoyed when we lose cause i fully expect it now. I still love my club and always will but I now have accepted this rebuild is a fail and the current list will not be successful in any sense of the word. Worst part is the players think the same and play accordingly.
Remember SOS's words in the Footy Classified interview where he said something like "I could build a list to play finals like that" (clicking his fingers). Really SOS? All you did was build a list full of fragile, slow, ball butchers.
Some stats from last nights game.
Paddy Dow (37% game time) had 9 disposals (4 kicks, 5 handballs) and managed 2 turnovers. Highlights why he is considered a liability at senior level. Give him some more time to prove himself, but don't expect too much.
TDK finally got 1st ruck duties as sole ruck, and this was helped by SOJ going down. - he played 83% game time.
Effort, was good. Output, still lacking IMO.
Ruck craft was good considering his opponents.....although
RC - 59
HTA - 13
RC-HTA % = 22% Which is very good.
However
Gawn - 24%
Grundy - 21%
Which is very poor, and backs up my concerns with him. When he is good, its good (that is HO -> HTA is good), but his ruck ability to nullify his opponents was very poor.
Our clearance numbers were below our average.
Dees clearance numbers were above their average.
We lost them by 9.
But we shouldn't judge TDK on his ruck craft as its his ability around the ground where he shows his dominance, (or is a perceived upgrade on Pittonet)
Unfortunately, he managed a mere 8 possessions, with 2 turnovers. Only 2 marks. These are all below Pittonets averages.
But, like Dow, i'm happy to continue with TDK and give him an extended run at it, but he has a lot more work to do to legitimately deserve a spot in the 22.
On the flipside, it was good to see Harry gain some kind of form.
12 touches from 9 marks, 3.2
Brodie Kemp took 10 marks last night, 3 contested, 6 intercepted. Developing well.
If we could get Young up to scratch, or find another genuine KPB we'd be afforded the luxury of forcing Gov to move on as he is also becoming a bit of a liability at times. At least he has a point of difference with his marking and kicking skills.
Sorry Lods, your being fanciful. I dont need to do a ladder predictor, I did one for you all 4-5 weeks ago:
https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=6381.0
The year was over from a finals perspective then. Even that prediction seems ambitious now, we will be lucky to eek our 8 or 9 wins.
You've misjudged me. ;D
I don't think we can make it.
I don't think we can make it even with the ambitious12.5 wins :(
You've misjudged me. ;D
I don't think we can make it.
I don't think we can make it even with the ambitious12.5 wins :(
Minimum 12 wins required this year. With our .5 win, it means we'll need 12.5 wins as you suggest as 11.5 won't be good enough.
So that means we need 8 from our last 11 to be in with a shot.
We play Pies, Dees, Freo (away) which are all losses which means we need to beat everyone else just to make it.
We should get 5 wins pretty easily .(GCx2, GWS, WC, HAW)
Its the remaining 3 games where we will most likely fall down (Ess, StK, PA (here))
But, hey, if we can make it from there, we will be on one hell of a run and there'd be no doubt why you couldn't continue that deep into finals ala Dogs of 2016.
Minimum 12 wins required this year. With our .5 win, it means we'll need 12.5 wins as you suggest as 11.5 won't be good enough.
So that means we need 8 from our last 11 to be in with a shot.
We play Pies, Dees, Freo (away) which are all losses which means we need to beat everyone else just to make it.
We should get 5 wins pretty easily .(GCx2, GWS, WC, HAW)
Its the remaining 3 games where we will most likely fall down (Ess, StK, PA (here))
But, hey, if we can make it from there, we will be on one hell of a run and there'd be no doubt why you couldn't continue that deep into finals ala Dogs of 2016.
Won't beat GC up Nth....
I watched some bits and pieces again this morning, it's quite bizarre how flat we look, like we are resigned to defeat before we even roll on the park. You could describe it as a malaise!
I just don't get it, what goes on behind closed doors to cause such a mindset, I find it hard to believe this is the result of doings from a coach or any number of coaches?
I've seen this before, our AFL team has had it in different seasons under different coaches, and I've seen it in our AFLW side as well, a disconnected look like our club is poison and nobody wants to be there.
It persists beyond however many times the coach and list has been turned over, so this isn't coming from coaches or players.
Are we the fans at fault, are we not good enough, if not then what persists at Carlton to create this persistently toxic environment?
Is the kyboshing of Matheison the start of change?
9
Re: q4 i50 entries kicking directly to opposition
Another example of opportunities lost!
How many different ways can one club find ways to lose? We must hold the record for sure.
Have a listen to Sellers and Hodge on SEN now measured and spot on.
If your too late, try and listen to them on the replay of the show.
Hodge talked about:
- injuries to certain players meant others were played out of position (Williams - Doc, Ruck- SOS).
- composure and work rate isn't there yet despite last years start.
- Player issues not coaching, list doesn't needing "blowing up" though.
Sellers (was as measured as I have ever heard him about Carlton)
- spoke about expectation being premature/unrealistic
- spoke about work rate and being selfless and team orientated.
it was bloody good radio analysis.
I suspect focussing on the football department is tip of the iceberg stuff, and those mostly invisible men at the top of the tree have more power and influence than we can see.
Re: q4 i50 entries kicking directly to opposition
Another example of opportunities lost!
How many different ways can one club players find ways to lose? We must hold the record for sure.
It's quite bizarre across forums, fans bagging McGovern who was probably among our best, complaining about randomly dropped marks and poor disposal in greasy conditions, ..................... I suppose they wish we'd gone hard for Jones! :o
It seems when it comes to footy fans the old political mantra is best, do nothing and you can't be blamed for any mistakes!
It just shows how irrational fans can be, they are worried about the players getting involved in play and being imperfect and are largely oblivious to those who are missing in action!
There are even fans bagging Acres today for being ineffective on the wing, implying that we'd be better off with SoJ, SoJ the player who limped off at 1/2-time with 3 or 4 touches in a half, that's purely a case of mindless idolatry!
I gather it's uncomfortable for some to critique the ones they love, we I suppose that goes for all of us, but it doesn't make us right no matter how loud we become!
Cripps was a liability out there, couldn't run at all and should not have played.
Cripps was a liability out there, couldn't run at all and should not have played.
Couldn't have picked that would be the case....
Oh wait. ::)
Cripps was a liability out there, couldn't run at all and should not have played.
Why do fans think some of us have been calling for him to step back, do they think it's because we hate him?
We are breaking this bloke.
He's an A-Grade AFL Midfielder, still the best of our best, but we are running him into the dirt and he's willing to do himself harm for the benefit of the team and club, but it might not be to our benefit in the long term! He needs time off, for himself and for the club, he needs to understand the basic rules of Game Theory, that the best outcome is obtained by "Doing what is right for yourself and the group!"
The smart move last night was to rest Cripps and if we bring in SoJ then play SoJ as a tall Mid, make the stoppage clearances 100% harder for the Dees by having bodies that can dump Gawn and Grundy and not be shoved aside by Petracca. Instead we ran Cripps into the ground, and moved SoJ one step closer to the end of his career!
Positives, at least we are starting to see what Kemp is capable of, he needs to get out of D50 next and become part of the on ball or perhaps even a wing rotation.
madbluboy, Kuddler and LP all agreeing wow.
madbluboy, Kuddler and LP all agreeing wow.
When you(fans) put away the navy blue glasses, it's pretty obvious, it's been obvious for weeks a few players aren't 100% and struggling to get involved.
Am I missing something with Boyd? Why did we pick him up? Why is he being selected?
Am I missing something with Boyd? Why did we pick him up? Why is he being selected?
Not missing anything...dud selection.
Geelong and Melbourne were both slammed for the same thing the year before their flags.
Completely different lead ups to being slammed. We haven’t made the finals once since our long slow turtle pace full rebuild
Those 2 teams featured in big games before having a few unexpected bad years and then rebounding.
We have been waiting and waiting and waiting more and then went without firing a shot went backwards again. Not the same unfortunately.
madbluboy, Kuddler and LP all agreeing wow.
Take note of the date for historical purposes...haha.
Kemp Weiters and H were positives tonight.
Never want to see Obrien, Boyd and dare I say it Young? wear a Carlton jumper again!
I thought Cincotta did a great job on Picket. Kept him to 6 kicks and picked 16 odd possessions himself.
8 more wins may get us finals. On paper it's doable beating everyone we think we can beat (gold coast twice, essendon, gws again, hawthorn, St. Kilda, one of Melbourne, Collingwood, freo or Port adelaide and I forget the rest but 8 wins is very doable based on our run home) but the way we are currently performing makes it seem unlikely. Thing is form can turn pretty fast and I really hope we are in conservation mods until the second half of the year. Finals isn't done and dusted for us yet so I wouldn't be giving up on that just yet but the next two weeks have become really crucial.
Regarding our play, we have lost some of that excitement and dare but im convinced that's got to do more with our overall list health because the boys seem to want to go but seem incapable rather than anything else.
It can turnaround, we need to scrape a win against the bombers, and then get up over GC before the bye and then get rolling afterwards. Very doable. Only team I really fear in our run home is Port adelaide but unfortunately I've lost trust in us to be able to do it.
This is the predicament we were in second half of last year. Only it's the first half of the season. 2022 hopes died on the back of accumulated injury carnage. This year, aside the perpetually injured bench, injuries were lesser. Is that tide is turning with injuries these past 2 games?
So yes it's mathematically possible, and with the right attack, we could make finals. The passionate supporter part of me says we keep fighting for that. Unfortunately the associated hope is crushed when I see how we've played this past 2m. I'm really torn and the health of our list may tip the balance. One way or another.
Something that is different, as some highlight, is the strategy underlying how we play. The question is, do we have the resources to keep our heads above water? Then, will we have the right combination to improve our position after the bye? Then, is that combination good enough compared to other sides?
Vossy saying we're close to that elusive level of performance, may or may not be the case. We're seeing glimpses as some players find form. My hope lies in the belief that others will follow suit, although time and perceived pressure is mounting. So I'm open to seeing the best emerge whilst holding the cold likelihood of seeing more of the worst. Just like we witnessed in q3. Such is the life of a Carlton supporter 😮💨
Go Blues
I thought Cincotta did a great job on Picket. Kept him to 6 kicks and picked 16 odd possessions himself.
Yes indeed you are correct, missed that.
I thought Cincotta did a great job on Picket. Kept him to 6 kicks and picked 16 odd possessions himself.
I agree. He's got a lot going for him IMO. Shame we're missing other important defenders in Newman and Williams.
Late to the thread so apologies for any ground already covered.
Very, very few highlights or positives out of that. We were lucky that Melbourne weren't that flash last night....if they'd kicked straight early we would've lost by 7 or 8 goals.
Hard to believe how far we've fallen in 12 months. At 8-2 last year were playing some breathtaking footy, albeit letting teams back into games at times. But we were taking the game on, moving the ball quickly and with precision and applying the heat. Fast forward 12 months and with arguably a stronger team, we're a rabble. We can hit opposition key defenders from 60m away but can't hit a team mate from 30m away. Just ultra slow ball movement to about the wing and then just blast it long and hope someone can mark it. And when it hits the ground, zero pressure and not one of our small forwards can find a goal...apart from a cheap one from Fisher last night where he ducked into a tackle and the umpire fell for it.
Kemp on Fritsch did a pretty good joob. Fritsch beat him one on one a couple of times but I'd give Kemp the honours overall. He took some good marks and used it pretty well. Cincotta kept Pickett quiet apart from one incredible snap goal. Cerra was probably our best mid and Harry found some form and confidence.
If we've set out to destroy Silvagni as a footy player then I reckon mission accomplished last night. 2-3 seasons ago he was a high pressure mid-sized forward who could take a big grab and although his goalkicking was hit and miss, he did kick goals. He was chasing, tackling and locking the ball into the forward line. He looks shot to bits now. I realise Mirkov might be a way off it just yet, but surely last night was the game to throw him in....if for nothing else than to ruck for 7-8 minutes each quarter and crash/bash into Gawn and Grundy. He's +200cm and +100kgs.....but we chose to go with Silvagni against that ruck combination.
O'Brien has probably played his last game. I can't see why Binns wasn't given an opportunity and now that finals are out of the question it's time for him to have a shot at it.
If we'd been good enough, the game was there for the taking at 3/4 time but it was just more of the same old crap. McGovern didn't appear to have a match up so why not just throw him forward....push Charlie up the ground a bit....just do something to mix it up. But instead it was just bomb it long and pick out May and Lever.
Again, our mids got plenty of the ball but are just not making any real impact with it.
Cottrell's first game back against the Dogs was a really good one and arguably one of our best....but he's had two stinkers in a row. Similarly Owies...averaging nearl 3 goals a game in his first few games and again when he came back after injury...but two absolute stinkers in a row and can barely find the ball now. Motlop does a lot of running and chasing but not a lot of impact and not hitting the scoreboard. I know kicking goals isn't the be all and end all for a small forward, but when your team only kicks 6 for the whole night, one or two from them would be handy.
Where too from here? Maybe Hewett comes back in but not much else left. Maybe Marchbank comes in for Young but reckon we'll need Young in the ruck if we're not going to give Mirkov a game. McGovern....no impact, dropping marks, turning it over.
It's important to bear in mind that one of the few pieces of the Teague review that was made public was the fact that he focussed too much on offence and not enough on defence. Clearly Voss was brought in to rectify that, and one way of achieving that is to play safe, keepings off and deny the opposition the ball. I can see the logic, and I can also see that he is trying to get the boys to understand the mood of the game at particular moments, when to run and gun and when to go safe. Voss is following the standard and in vogue coaching mantra of wanting us to be a "team that is hard to play against" and wanting to build from a solid base of contest and defence. Clearly we're a good way away from implementing that consistently.
Interesting you say that Paul. A former coach of ours, MM, said last night that there are 2 forms of defence, 1st is if you have the ball and 2nd if they do not have the ball, i.e.
keeping's off. Unfortunately if you turn the ball over as much as we do then it's not defence any more.
Interesting you say that Paul. A former coach of ours, MM, said last night that there are 2 forms of defence, 1st is if you have the ball and 2nd if they do not have the ball. Unfortunately if you turn the ball over as much as we do then it's not defence any more.
Yep, I agree. The ideas I'm sure are sound, but the implementation is wanting. I'm sure this is the reason why we have the chip kick, 15m backwards passes etc. - to limit turnover. Perhaps it becomes a negative reinforcement loop for the players - they think they're not trusted to go bold, so it preys on their mind and affects their confidence. Perhaps Voss and the other coaches have watched the boys at training and on game day, and have seen enough to feel their damage limitation policy is justified ? I really wish I knew. I can't help but feel that the key to unlock all this is something simple and obvious, it's right under everyone's noses and they're just not seeing it. I wonder if coaches and players have had a heart to heart like Justin Longmuir and the Freo boys ? Maybe our boys need something like that.
Yep, I agree. The ideas I'm sure are sound, but the implementation is wanting. I'm sure this is the reason why we have the chip kick, 15m backwards passes etc. - to limit turnover. Perhaps it becomes a negative reinforcement loop for the players - they think they're not trusted to go bold, so it preys on their mind and affects their confidence. Perhaps Voss and the other coaches have watched the boys at training and on game day, and have seen enough to feel their damage limitation policy is justified ? I really wish I knew. I can't help but feel that the key to unlock all this is something simple and obvious, it's right under everyone's noses and they're just not seeing it. I wonder if coaches and players have had a heart to heart like Justin Longmuir and the Freo boys ? Maybe our boys need something like that.
I can see where a damage limitation policy is justified. The sad fact is that so many of our players have such poor foot skills that they cannot be trusted to keep possession even with the chip kick.
On numerous occasions they kick too wide of the target, kick the ball too high allowing an interception, or kick the ball just short of the intended player.
Trying to play attractive, attacking football just means the opposition gets the ball given back to them on turnover which just heaps misery on our defence once again.
No wonder player morale is down. On the rare occasion we kick a goal we usually find that the opposition responds very quickly after cutting up our midfield and defence like a hot knife in butter.
i have said this many times, if there was a stat for a team that kicks straight to the opposition our club will be on top
madbluboy, Kuddler and LP all agreeing wow.
If we get LL agreeing with us i think the universe folds in on itself.
i have said this many times, if there was a stat for a team that kicks straight to the opposition our club will be on top
We find them with consistency and precision.
We find them with consistency and precision.
The boundary is also looking attractive as a sweet option.
i have said this many times, if there was a stat for a team that kicks straight to the opposition our club will be on top
There is a stats for that, its called a turnover. We are ranked 3 with 832, First are Melb with 867, second are Rich with 842 but they haven't played rnd 12 yet. Strangely, 18th is West Coast with 705.
There is a stats for that, its called a turnover. We are ranked 3 with 832, First are Melb with 867, second are Rich with 842 but they haven't played rnd 12 yet. Strangely, 18th is West Coast with 705.
You gotta get the ball to turn it over.
Turnovers per Disposal
Team TO/disposal
1 Tigers 0.212
2 Suns 0.209
3 Lions 0.202
4 Power 0.198
5 Demons 0.196
6 Swans 0.194
7 Kangaroos 0.191
8 Cats 0.191
9 Bulldogs 0.189
10 Eagles 0.188
11 Saints 0.187
12 Giants 0.184
13 Magpies 0.183
14 Blues 0.183
15 Crows 0.181
16 Dockers 0.180
17 Bombers 0.180
18 Hawks 0.176
At his media conference, Vossy mentioned that we were too safe and that when we took some risks and went through the middle we looked much better.
So... who's in charge of our attitude to games? Who's responsible for us playing too safe?
I watched the game again this morning. Perplexed. Not sure I would say we played safe... more like 'unsure.' And I think unsure comes before 'safe'... safe is more a symptom of something else. Confused? Unsure? Lack of confidence = Unsure? Game plan too complex?
Liked the games of those who did appear to attempt at least to 'take the game on' - H, Kemp, Cincotta, Cerra & even Acres. Thought TDK, Saad, Boyd (kept a pretty tight rein on Pickett), Weiters and Kennedy were good. Cottrell & Owies below par. Crippa was serviceable but sure does seem 'out of sorts.'
But no matter how you look at it - individualistic/fragmented.
At his media conference, Vossy mentioned that we were too safe and that when we took some risks and went through the middle we looked much better.
So... who's in charge of our attitude to games? Who's responsible for us playing too safe?
I watched the game again this morning. Perplexed. Not sure I would say we played safe... more like 'unsure.' And I think unsure comes before 'safe'... safe is more a symptom of something else. Confused? Unsure? Lack of confidence = Unsure? Game plan too complex?
Liked the games of those who did appear to attempt at least to 'take the game on' - H, Kemp, Cincotta, Cerra & even Acres. Thought TDK, Saad, Boyd (kept a pretty tight rein on Pickett), Weiters and Kennedy were good. Cottrell & Owies below par. Crippa was serviceable but sure does seem 'out of sorts.'
But no matter how you look at it - individualistic/fragmented.
Thought Saad has been off the boil and hasnt handled the tagging that well and his numbers are down and its been hurting us badly. That Crows game with Keays employed as a minder seems to have woken other teams up on how to play him and we need to free him up more.
TDk's ruckwork was ok but he didnt do much around the ground and poor Jack had a shocker and looks miserable imho.
Cripps looks like he has a few things on his mind and maybe its time to for him to relinquish the captains role and ease the pressure. Walsh is another who is trying very hard but seems under pressure all the time and his kicking lacks penetration over a distance so he wants to go short all the time.
At his media conference, Vossy mentioned that we were too safe and that when we took some risks and went through the middle we looked much better.
So... who's in charge of our attitude to games? Who's responsible for us playing too safe?
I watched the game again this morning. Perplexed. Not sure I would say we played safe... more like 'unsure.' And I think unsure comes before 'safe'... safe is more a symptom of something else. Confused? Unsure? Lack of confidence = Unsure? Game plan too complex?
Liked the games of those who did appear to attempt at least to 'take the game on' - H, Kemp, Cincotta, Cerra & even Acres. Thought TDK, Saad, Boyd (kept a pretty tight rein on Pickett), Weiters and Kennedy were good. Cottrell & Owies below par. Crippa was serviceable but sure does seem 'out of sorts.'
But no matter how you look at it - individualistic/fragmented.
Dunno about Boyd Baggers, I thought he was terrible. Didn't chase a couple of times, was too loose most of the time, couple of OOTFs, just VFL player.
One last thing - LOB, hand in the #4 guernsey, son, just not up to it. Get the Binns kid in for the rest of the year.
100% !!!!
Earlier this year I thought this season was becoming 2012 all over again. I now think it is becoming 2014 all over again.
At his media conference, Vossy mentioned that we were too safe and that when we took some risks and went through the middle we looked much better.
So... who's in charge of our attitude to games? Who's responsible for us playing too safe?
I watched the game again this morning. Perplexed. Not sure I would say we played safe... more like 'unsure.' And I think unsure comes before 'safe'... safe is more a symptom of something else. Confused? Unsure? Lack of confidence = Unsure? Game plan too complex?
Liked the games of those who did appear to attempt at least to 'take the game on' - H, Kemp, Cincotta, Cerra & even Acres. Thought TDK, Saad, Boyd (kept a pretty tight rein on Pickett), Weiters and Kennedy were good. Cottrell & Owies below par. Crippa was serviceable but sure does seem 'out of sorts.'
But no matter how you look at it - individualistic/fragmented.
It's a tough one because yo can see what the coaching group is trying to do and we were playing like garbage pre season and belted by Swans.
Emphasis is placed on defence first - defensive minded tough football and looking at goals against for this season I think the coaching group has got this part of the game pretty much where they would like it.
Maybe too much emphasis is placed on defence to the detriment of other phases of the game but in reality we just don't have the skillset nor the players to impact forward of center consistently other than Charlie and Harry.
It feels like the team is running out with 14-13 players as some players are simply not pulling their weight.
It's a tough one because yo can see what the coaching group is trying to do and we were playing like garbage pre season and belted by Swans.
Emphasis is placed on defence first - defensive minded tough football and looking at goals against for this season I think the coaching group has got this part of the game pretty much where they would like it.
Maybe too much emphasis is placed on defence to the detriment of other phases of the game but in reality we just don't have the skillset nor the players to impact forward of center consistently other than Charlie and Harry.
It feels like the team is running out with 14-13 players as some players are simply not pulling their weight.
Spot on. We have shown very little in the way of composure or flair in the forward half of the ground, especially in F50. We fumble around and can't put the score on the board, giving the opposition opportunity after opportunity to set up their attacks and catch us on the hop.
Thought Saad has been off the boil and hasnt handled the tagging that well and his numbers are down and its been hurting us badly. That Crows game with Keays employed as a minder seems to have woken other teams up on how to play him and we need to free him up more.
TDk's ruckwork was ok but he didnt do much around the ground and poor Jack had a shocker and looks miserable imho.
Cripps looks like he has a few things on his mind and maybe its time to for him to relinquish the captains role and ease the pressure. Walsh is another who is trying very hard but seems under pressure all the time and his kicking lacks penetration over a distance so he wants to go short all the time.
Re Walsh it maybe his back injury still troubling him. I think Crippa had the same issue a couple of years ago. And Hewett has not being the same as last year after his back injury.
Re Walsh it maybe his back injury still troubling him.
No player, no matter how good they are, can escape suffering some consequences of missing the pre-season.
I was astounded how well Walsh resumed in 2023, it shows how professional he is, but even so he'll be below his best which should be encouraging for our fans and worrisome for the opposition!
The margins in AFL are small, it's just 1/2 a step here or there and you are either pegged or set free!
Coaches' votes :
10 Christian Petracca (MELB)
8 Steven May (MELB)
5 Jake Lever (MELB)
4 Ed Langdon (MELB)
2 Harry McKay (CARL)
1 Jacob Weitering (CARL)