For those worried about how we bring the ball into forward 50, we've been here before. Brendan bokton was the one who was banging on about our midfield to forward connection and that culminated in the game with gws where we were being outrun with them having a man down.
I think this group can go all the way, and I think Voss can take them there, but we are going to need the sort of luck we didnt get last year.
One thing I will say, is that we do appear to be our worst enemy with regards to not giving ourselves our best chance at winning. Somehow we have to get past this rope a dope situation where we look good for a quarter and then it all breaks down or vice versa.
Thats the challenge for Voss. The fact we look good is the major reason I'm in the lets not make any drastic moves both list and coach wise.
I had people over so was watching it casually in the background rather than with full intent.
Cowan straight back in for mine. Sooner the better. He's too good for vfl level, and he's a tough competitor. He'll get beaten a bit at afl level, but he's the type that will put his head where others won't.
Moir i reckon did enough to come in. Very creative and way more involved with the odd stint on ball. He can potentially do the Elijah role and probably possesses more of his skillet than others.
M. Carroll was ok. Im not sure what it is about him i dont like but im not enamoured by him. I think its because he's not overly physical.
Charleson was interesting.
Its hard to drop anyone on Thursdays effort. We were so bad you could replace anyone who put their hand up and imho a few did.
Lemmey is a straight kick, and a strong mark. He's not a dominant player he's just a key forward. Is he a good key forward at afl level? He's not very mobile. Will compliment Charlie. I would rather him forward than young but he's a bit of a one trick pony.
10 senior coaches in 25 years. An average of 2.5 years each. This is worse, when you consider it's been 4 years of voss, it was 4 years of Bolton and 5 years of Ratten.
Some have churned through a few, but there's a theme. Who's another basket case for most of this century?
Melbourne. They've had 7 senior coaches. Who else? Freo? 4.
Who else? Essendon and the saints equal our record.
There's a theme there. Crap clubs, lots of off field controversy and instability (financial penalties too) and a complete and utter failure to achieve anything since the year 2000 with st.kilda getting an asterisk for a brief period of being a bridesmaid, but more often than not, these clubs miss finals.
Maybe we just keep picking the wrong ones. If its just the club that is the issue im guessing a lot of the young coaches in that group went on to success.
Not one did.
We had a choice of Kingsley, McRae and Voss. We picked the biggest name in the pack despite his previous record being average at best.
Word was Pies had Voss ranked last in the process.
The rest is history
so you're saying the guys who are correct in sacking coaches cant hire the right one or keep choosing the wrong one?
Maybe the blokes making those decisions should get sacked instead.
Ollie hollands is showing signs he could make a good leader.
Adam Cerra might he another (he does speak eloquently).
You know a few people come across as many children or not leadership material and then surprise people.
Tex walker James Sicily. Max gawn.
Sometimes thrusting people into these roles will make them grow. I reckon fev may have needed captaincy to kick on and mature back then. For a club where we were he was dedicated enough. Bit selfish though.
Still, you just never know. On paper Murphy was a captain. In practise....
What he did at Brisbane has no relevance to what he's doing with us.
Its a different group, at a different club, at a different time for football.
You cannot judge any of his work today by what he had done elsewhere unless you're looking for signs of growth and how he handled situations then vs now.
Sam docherty is the only player who's played for him at both clubs, and what he has to say about Voss would be the only words worth listening too, but even he isnt the same person he was back then.
10 senior coaches in 25 years. An average of 2.5 years each. This is worse, when you consider it's been 4 years of voss, it was 4 years of Bolton and 5 years of Ratten.
Some have churned through a few, but there's a theme. Who's another basket case for most of this century?
Melbourne. They've had 7 senior coaches. Who else? Freo? 4.
Who else? Essendon and the saints equal our record.
There's a theme there. Crap clubs, lots of off field controversy and instability (financial penalties too) and a complete and utter failure to achieve anything since the year 2000 with st.kilda getting an asterisk for a brief period of being a bridesmaid, but more often than not, these clubs miss finals.
@kruddler continuing on that average age chat, was just doing some various mental gymnastics about sides and average ages.
It could be right, but I think its being over stated somewhat.
Off thr top of my head our oldest players today would have been cripps, docherty, Williams, saad, haynes, McGovern. Acres probably a smidgeon behind them. The rest are all under that age or thereabouts.
So it may very well be thr oldest average, but we dont exactly have a cliff coming where the rest of the side is in dire straights.
@Thryleon A better breakdown of current ages 30+: 6 - Cripps, McGovern, Williams, Saad, Docherty, Haynes Missing 1 - Newman 27-29: 7 - Silvagni, Weitering, Curnow, Cincotta, Hewett, Acres, Fantasia - Missing 2 - Pittonet, McKay 25-26: 5 - Boyd, L. Young, Fogarty, Cerra, De Koning Missing 2 - Cottrell, Walsh*** turns 25 next week
Thats 18 players.... From the rest who played....
23: 1 - FYoung. 21: 2 - Motlop, O. Hollands 20: 2 - Lord, Wilson
Don't know what considers a 'cliff', but you'd expect better from that group if they were fit.
Biggest issue with that list is the younger age brackets. eg 25-26 has 5 players. TDK will walk. L. Young and Boyd are not considered best 22, Fogarty might be, but only just. Cerra only managed 17 touches last night and thats not good enough.
yeah cool. So it was a bit on the older side. Using that guideline, we need to get better and younger, and thats where last years draft haul comes in hopefully.
When I say the cliff, it's similar to the one we hit early 2000's. Older players breaking down and becoming ineffective, not enough young coming through.
We should be capable of bringing in a couple of free agents in the coming seasons.
The thing about age though its not what it used to be. Where Bradley was an outlier, we should see players go a bit longer. Not in all cases but the way players go you'd have to say 33 years old is the end on a very general level. Some will go earlier some later but the way sports science has gone its conceivable to go that long. Thing is all of them have broken down alot and some have shouldered bigger loads for longer. Might break them earlier.
This is why I'm against trading McKay and walsh if tdk walks. If he stays, maybe McKay, but I dont like the idea of trading out key forwards. Call PTSD from having exactly 0 viable key position players but jarrad Waite and fevola for years, and taking 10 years to find the ones we have.
We agree on one thing at least - Acres needs to be sent out for whatever op he needs because he has deadset stunk. Im not sure of his contract situation but I'd think long and hard about renewing it. Saad would be close to running around at Willy next week too if he had any awareness whatsoever.
Few rumours around that this might be Saad's last year. If he went out for concussion he won't be playing anyway
contracted for next year so I doubt it, but players retire early all the time.
I dont understand the outrage. She's likely to be learning how to coach and you would have to know her intimately to know if she'd make a good coach.
Look at hawthorn. All their assistants are from Carlton and they value them highly. Hickmott, ratten, simpson. They'd have every right to say why those spuds who know how to lose? The answer is not obvious.
The best teams plan and plan everything to the finest detail.
They may start resting players, but whoever the players are that go out there will go at 100%, nothing is sure because the players on the fringe of selection are battling for a spot!
Id rather face their A team who are training hard prepping for the business end of the year, than the fringe types looking to get in.
Those types will crucify us because they can sense a premiership.
I think the drop off is temporary and a product of a list that isnt in good condition.
You seem to think its at optimum capacity to perform and not performing to that potential.
There is the variance, its not about condeding or arguing who is right or wrong, but saying it was at full strength is a massive stretch. Cripps alone is playing within 50% of his top form of last season. Is he rubbish now? Or is he simply having an off year?
We dont play like this, because our squads outside game is significantly hindered by players being broken down. All our creative and running types are well down on their best so we have to stick with what our strength is, and try and generate scores that way, because we dont have another mode we can go to.
We lost to Richmond in Round 1 with close to full list.
You have said this a couple of times, but our list isnt close to being in good condition, and I debate how close to full it was, given the team that fielded that day didnt include a two time coleman medallist, and had 2 new players that hadnt played for the club before. That doesnt sound like full strength to me.
This business about "the modern game" seems to be the hottest ticket in town. I'd be curious to know what it actually is.
We arent good enough so the reason we arent good enough isnt because we arent good enough, some external factor is imposing an artifical restraint to make us look bad.
Remove the restraint, and all will be rosy.
Same old Carlton arrogance thinking we are or entitled to be, better than we are.
Thing is, its sometimes as simple as, we are not going well (theres enough evidence there to say we arent in good condition) and rather than accepting that, we need to "fix it" because old Carlton knew how to fix things, and in our hubris, we can fix it.
Thing is, game plans are game plans. There are finite things you can do in tactics. Everything old will become new again, and right now, the run and gun game style is "modern footy" with scores off intercept and rebound currently being the way to hit the opponent.
Who played like that? Ratten.
We dont play like this, because our squads outside game is significantly hindered by players being broken down. All our creative and running types are well down on their best so we have to stick with what our strength is, and try and generate scores that way, because we dont have another mode we can go to.
