Carlton Supporters Club

Well, what do we think now?

Did well for 3 quarters. Looked like we ran out of legs for mine - not much to give in the contest, not much to give in running pattens, tackling etc.

They are clearly a superior team, and 7-1 for a good reason.

i wonder if these 3/4 goals losses are becoming habitual.

Did well for 3 quarters. Looked like we ran out of legs for mine - not much to give in the contest, not much to give in running pattens, tackling etc.

They are clearly a superior team, and 7-1 for a good reason.

So its a conditioning problem? We were 25pts up!

So its a conditioning problem? We were 25pts up!

Not sure.

Bontempelli's stats.

32 disposals (=game high)
19 Contested possessions (game high)
8 Tackles (2nd highest of the game)
10 Inside 50's (2nd....5 above 3rd)
10 Clearances (2nd)
5 Centre clearances (2nd)
12 Score involvements (=game high)
617m Gained (2nd)
2 goal assists (=game high)

3 Brownlow votes

THAT was the ballgame.

So its a conditioning problem? We were 25pts up!

Heart problem?

SOJ off
SPS on

Bulldogs on
Carlton off

Coincidence?

i wonder if these 3/4 goals losses are becoming habitual.

Well its predictable, We just wait for it to happen every week

One thing I didn't like was 9 goals out of 12 kicked by 2 blokes, one of which has one foot in the grave. I'd like to see a greater spread than that. I hope Teague isn't playing the superstar reliance card.

Same as the 2 games against the Pies and GWS last year when it really mattered. Great for 3/4s, 5hit the bed in the last.....again! 4pts pissed down the drain again!

Heart problem?

SOJ off
SPS on

Bulldogs on
Carlton off

Coincidence?

Yep.
Silvagni had probably his worst game for the year.
He was pretty ineffectual.

Is it just me or is the body language of Cripps similar to a guy keeping a secret from his mates and it’s weighing heavily on his mind?  Either that or he is injured. Take your pick. 

If its goal and goal more or less and you lose, cest la vie. But the 30 point turnarounds (unanswered) is  completely unacceptable no matter who we are playing.

If its goal and goal more or less and you lose, cest la vie. But the 30 point turnarounds (unanswered) is  completely unacceptable no matter who we are playing.

There was an article during the week that said our problem was we had too many midfielders.

I'd like to see what they think about that now.

We lost centre clearances at one stage in the 2nd half 15-1.

That is where we lost the game.

We couldn't stop Bont and we couldn't get the ball out of the centre.

Pit is NOT and AFL standard ruckman. Not even close. He was beaten by a second gamer and was still unable to give our midfield any clear takeaways. HTF are we slaughtered in clearances with a 2nd gamer rucking. Can you imagine what Gawn will do to this bloke next week. Just shows you how far off it we are development wise when a 2nd gamer can come in and have an impact. Same with their first gamer he showed straight off that he had been developed. We are still a fair bit off it.

And don’t let me start on Cripps and Williams. Ffs I’m so sick of both of these blokes. Over paid over rated. Sick of excuses. If Cripps wants to go home good get a decent deal and catch ya later.  He needs to be dropped but won’t be. Kane Cornes is 110% right - he is not an elite midfielder had a few good years but is not damaging at all and gets burnt on the outside time and time again. Paying this bloke a cent more then 600k a year would be laughable.
Switch jumpers with Bont and Cripps today and we win by 6 goals.

Pit is NOT and AFL standard ruckman. Not even close. He was beaten by a second gamer and was still unable to give our midfield any clear takeaways. HTF are we slaughtered in clearances with a 2nd gamer rucking. Can you imagine what Gawn will do to this bloke next week. Just shows you how far off it we are development wise when a 2nd gamer can come in and have an impact. Same with their first gamer he showed straight off that he had been developed. We are still a fair bit off it.

Well.....thats a bit embarrassing.

Hitouts
33 Pittonet
8 Casboult

17 Sweet
5 Bruce

Disposals
17 Pittonet
9 Sweet

Clearances
7 Pittonet (most for Carlton, 3rd behind Bont + Libba)
1 Sweet


I can't get hitout to advantage stats yet, but i don't think Pittonet was the problem.
Cripps being MIA, Williams appearing on the team sheet, but barely sighted on the ground, SPS doing similar after Jack went off....

Heart problem?

SOJ off
SPS on

Bulldogs on
Carlton off

Coincidence?

Obviously ridiculous to lay the blame for that loss on SPS. He wasn’t great but you can’t really glean a form line on a quarter of footy entering the game at 3/4 time.


Need to look further ..,.Cripps and Williams both horribly out of form and Jones makes so many stupid decisions and is a teammate wrecking ball, continually clattering into our players.

Pittonet, Newnes, Cottrell, Parks, Casboult, Gibbons, Curnow, Plowman try hard but either lack the finish or decision making of better players. They’ll continue to make errors, we’ll all be frustrated, but generally their effort out good. Clearly if we’re to rise up the ladder we can’t carry so many of this type of player.

Bontempelli showed everybody how a real leader leads.

Obviously ridiculous to lay the blame for that loss on SPS. He wasn’t great but you can’t really glean a form line on a quarter of footy entering the game at 3/4 time.

I'm not blaming the loss on him.

But Jack going down was the turning point. Momentum turned after that.
Despite SPS' heroics last week (as i pointed out pre-game) it is far from common from him and he offered us nothing when he came on.

Is it just me or is the body language of Cripps similar to a guy keeping a secret from his mates and it’s weighing heavily on his mind?  Either that or he is injured. Take your pick. 

Or maybe he just isn’t as good as he was. It’s a faster outside game now and he has been found out big time for leg speed and fitness.

When you really look at it he is only elite at extracting the ball. He’s an average ball user by foot, poor kick for goal, below average fitness and absolutely horrible defensively. And no clue how to play forward.
I hate to admit it but Kane Cornes is right. He’s overrated and not at all damaging in the current game. Imo I hope we look very seriously into what is offered to let him go home.
I’m over him

Bontempelli's stats.

32 disposals (=game high)
19 Contested possessions (game high)
8 Tackles (2nd highest of the game)
10 Inside 50's (2nd....5 above 3rd)
10 Clearances (2nd)
5 Centre clearances (2nd)
12 Score involvements (=game high)
617m Gained (2nd)
2 goal assists (=game high)

3 Brownlow votes

THAT was the ballgame.

Plus Bruce...Jones had a shocker including that non spoil on the Bont in the last quarter.
Saad had a shocker too, dumb frees when it mattered and Williams was a non event.

I'm not blaming the loss on him.

But Jack going down was the turning point. Momentum turned after that.
Despite SPS' heroics last week (as i pointed out pre-game) it is far from common from him and he offered us nothing when he came on.

Yes a real shame that JSOS went down

SPS needs to start kicking longer and backing himself more - he plays like a guy that doesn’t believe in himself, so takes the easy options.

Our worst players today were arguably our more well regarded players so not sure where we go from here.

Again, when serious heat comes, we wilt - too many passengers. That final qtr was simply deplorable, and says exactly where we are against quality opposition - we do it far too often for it to be anything other than in our DNA.

We had some very good moments, but plenty of bottom sides have good moments.

We still rely on individuals. Weitering, Doc, Eduardo, H, Walsh & Cuningham - their individual skills were impressive.

I'm yet to see why all the fuss about this Williams.

Baffled as to why changes weren't made in the box during the final qtr.

I think we have to be realistic, we're a bottom 6 side.

A lot of passengers today - way too many.

And some highly paid ones at that.

Not going to beat a good team with only 12-14 guys putting in.

Again, when serious heat comes, we wilt - too many passengers. That final qtr was simply deplorable, and says exactly where we are against quality opposition - we do it far too often for it to be anything other than in our DNA.

We had some very good moments, but plenty of bottom sides have good moments.

We still rely on individuals. Weitering, Doc, Eduardo, H, Walsh & Cuningham - their individual skills were impressive.

I'm yet to see why all the fuss about this Williams.

Baffled as to why changes weren't made in the box during the final qtr.

I think we have to be realistic, we're a bottom 6 side.

Williams was a good player at GWS, but hasn’t fired a shot at Carlton. Why?

Did we get this horribly wrong?

Williams was a good player at GWS, but hasn’t fired a shot at Carlton. Why?

Did we get this horribly wrong?

Played as a half back at GWS in the main...the midfield experiment hasnt worked.

Ive had enough of this crap - we were 5 goals up ffs and can’t hold on, can’t stop a run of 8 goals! 8
Goals ffs! How is that acceptable!???

To blame SPS is ridiculous, guy had one quarter on ffs.   Stupid kicking OOTF how does that happen continuously, dont say pressure.

Just over it

One thing I didn't like was 9 goals out of 12 kicked by 2 blokes, one of which has one foot in the grave. I'd like to see a greater spread than that. I hope Teague isn't playing the superstar reliance card.

Why shouldn't he if the player happens to perform and more than earn his keep?

Twice in the last we had no one stand on the mark for gods sake, a basic basic act to apply at least a bit of pressure, and no one thinks to do it?

We need a captain that will settle the troops, will lead by example, when having an off day will still lead where he can! Not good enough, the leadership in last, not even close.

Well.....thats a bit embarrassing.

Hitouts
33 Pittonet
8 Casboult

17 Sweet
5 Bruce

Disposals
17 Pittonet
9 Sweet

Clearances
7 Pittonet (most for Carlton, 3rd behind Bont + Libba)
1 Sweet


I can't get hitout to advantage stats yet, but i don't think Pittonet was the problem.
Cripps being MIA, Williams appearing on the team sheet, but barely sighted on the ground, SPS doing similar after Jack went off....

You know what’s embarrassing - anyone that tries to justify that performance using stats.
I watched the game and him in particular very closely apart from costing us 2 goals to frees he had no fking clue how to palm the ball to any sort of advantage. I reckon they could have used Daniels on the ruck and Pit wouldn’t know how to exploit it. Bombers did the same thing last week used a kid against him cause they know he has no clue.
You trying to defend his ruck work is like me telling you Casboult is a great AFL footballer based on the stats I throw at you.
Both are lucky to be 2nds standard but we have no stocks to turn to so they keep getting a game. 

TDK very good today

Played as a half back at GWS in the main...the midfield experiment hasnt worked.

Yep that’s what happens when your desperate.
Got to love SOS recruiting work in the midfield during his tenure.
Disaster.

Surely it is time to swing the axe. We are playing 3 to 4 players short every game by the inclusion of players who are a liability at the moment.
TDK has to come in for Levi HAS TO. TDK with only 2 games under his belt in one game next week will do more than Levi has done all year. Levi should never play in the AFL again.
Gibbons goes out and you can bring in absolutely anyone to take his place. I mean anyone. If they've got a set of lungs they get a gig ahead of this bloke.
I never ever ever thought I would say this, but if Cripps wasn't a captain of our club he would be in serious trouble. Well, he would be in any other good football club. Not a circus club like ours.
Thank God SPS came on again as the sub. Last week I thought he may have had an epiphany last week and had realised he best not lose the opportunity, but was back to his old self today and should go back to the VFL and accumulate 30 pointless possessions. Poor Jack. He does not deserve this run of luck. By the same token he's missed another couple of sodas in front of goal and he's almost Levi like for goal kicking efficiency.
We are carrying that many that guys at the moment that the likes of Cottrell and Newnes should be our 21st and 22nd best players at the moment but they are currently running around the 17 and 18.
Gotta say Stocker hasn't set the world alight and has made some horrible  mistakes, but he has a crack and has some REAL mongrel so for that he stays.
I'm starting to get real, real scared that Zac Williams is going to become another GWS blowout.
Teague was supa-cr@p today. The game was in the balance and they had TV vision of Pittonet, Walsh, Saad and Curnow on the interchange. Was he on the gas?
Talking about Ed. My God, how can this bloke (and Eddie for that matter) still be the ones that are in our best players?
On the positives, apart from the usual suspects - see Walsh, Weitering, Doc - it was nice to see Cunners carry on his form from last week. No doubt he'll make way for Murphy next week
You know at the end of the day losing by 3 goals to the side 2nd on the ladder may not be a surprise but we were 27 pts up and we're killing them coming into red time of the 3rd and capitulated without any real reason other than we $H!T ourselves again. Oh, and we we're 3 to 4 players short from the 1st bounce.
As f@rkin annoying as it is to lose one like this it does not compare to having to listen to the f@kin c&^t Ling. God, he is a dead set pr$c.
Anyway, Melbourne next week and we should knock them off. Oh, the rider is we actually make so intelligent changes to the team. So I guess that means another loss.

But Jack going down was the turning point. Momentum turned after that.

If we are that dependent on SOJ then we're in much more trouble than I thought!

Late in that 3rd qtr you could see the Dishlickers, to a man, lift and start applying much more pressure all over the ground... and that's when we started to wilt. Poor contributions from Crippa and Williams did not help. I don't know what is up with Crippa, or whether the game is just too quick for him now, but either way, he aint anywhere near as influential as he once was.

Well.....thats a bit embarrassing.

Hitouts
33 Pittonet
8 Casboult

17 Sweet
5 Bruce

Disposals
17 Pittonet
9 Sweet

Clearances
7 Pittonet (most for Carlton, 3rd behind Bont + Libba)
1 Sweet


I can't get hitout to advantage stats yet, but i don't think Pittonet was the problem.
Cripps being MIA, Williams appearing on the team sheet, but barely sighted on the ground, SPS doing similar after Jack went off....

Exactly, exactly correct Krudd. F@RK me is wasn't Pitt's fault, other than him bringing the ball to ground were our flat-footed "mids" just chased arse.

TDK very good today

Has to play next week vs Gawn and Jackson.....Pittonet won the ruck today but had no impact on the game, we wont win the ruck vs Gawn but if we can break even and get TDK on the scoreboard too it might help us to sneak a win.
Much more confident we can handle Melbourne better than the Dogs...

Why shouldn't he if the player happens to perform and more than earn his keep?

It's not sustainable.

TDK very good today

Yep, and Durdin showed some promise for the future - has a fair-dinkum dip.

Next week:

Murphy for Cottrell or Newnes?

TDK for Pitto or Casboult?

And how about something bold like Honey for SOJ?

Yep, and Durdin showed some promise for the future - has a fair-dinkum dip.

Next week:

Murphy for Cottrell or Newnes?

TDK for Pitto or Casboult?

And how about something bold like Honey for SOJ?

Agree on Honey...think Gibbons has to go out, we just have one too many small bodies IMO with Owies now in the team.
Cottrell was ok on Hunter for a while and the whipping boy Newnes wasnt our worst....
Zac Williams if he wasnt on a crap load of money should be dropped too.....

Has to play next week vs Gawn and Jackson.....Pittonet won the ruck today but had no impact on the game, we wont win the ruck vs Gawn but if we can break even and get TDK on the scoreboard too it might help us to sneak a win.
Much more confident we can handle Melbourne better than the Dogs...

Oh my God. Are you serious? Melbourne? This could be a huge percentage boost for them, and put our club back in the bottom 4. Our defensive game cannot even come close to Melbourne. Dees by 6 goals minimum.

Oh my God. Are you serious? Melbourne? This could be a huge percentage boost for them, and put our club back in the bottom 4. Our defensive game cannot even come close to Melbourne. Dees by 6 goals minimum.

Yep I am serious, I think Dees are due and we can roll them with some decent selections and rejigging of positions plus a lift in effort from Cripps.
Have a little faith....

Bontempelli's stats.

32 disposals (=game high)
19 Contested possessions (game high)
8 Tackles (2nd highest of the game)
10 Inside 50's (2nd....5 above 3rd)
10 Clearances (2nd)
5 Centre clearances (2nd)
12 Score involvements (=game high)
617m Gained (2nd)
2 goal assists (=game high)

3 Brownlow votes

THAT was the ballgame.

Bont wasn't very effective until the last quarter. Unfortunately, he really lifted. Until he wasn't that much at all.

Our centre square work was good for three quarters, but very ordinary in the last. We couldn't but a clearance then.

Agree on Honey...think Gibbons has to go out, we just have one too many small bodies IMO with Owies now in the team.
Cottrell was ok on Hunter for a while and the whipping boy Newnes wasnt our worst....
Zac Williams if he wasnt on a crap load of money should be dropped too.....

Are we playing too many injured payers @ElwoodBlues1‍ , between Cripps and Williams they almost spent a quarter on the bench!

Agree on Honey...think Gibbons has to go out, we just have one too many small bodies IMO with Owies now in the team.
Cottrell was ok on Hunter for a while and the whipping boy Newnes wasnt our worst....
Zac Williams if he wasnt on a crap load of money should be dropped too.....

The club has really made a rod for its back with Williams, he came to us with OUR promise to him of being a midfielder... which, to date, he clearly aint - or is it that our key mid (Crippa) is not up to it which leaves more to others who aint up to it?

The big question is - who dropped their heads in that last qtr, ie who are the softies when serious heat comes? Did the coaching box also drop the ball in the last qtr?

Bont wasn't very effective until the last quarter. Unfortunately, he really lifted. Until he wasn't that much at all.

Our centre square work was good for three quarters, but very ordinary in the last. We couldn't but a clearance then.

Agree... so, to repeat myself, who dropped their heads in the last qtr? Who are the blokes who fold when serious heat comes?

You know what’s embarrassing - anyone that tries to justify that performance using stats.
I watched the game and him in particular very closely apart from costing us 2 goals to frees he had no fking clue how to palm the ball to any sort of advantage. I reckon they could have used Daniels on the ruck and Pit wouldn’t know how to exploit it. Bombers did the same thing last week used a kid against him cause they know he has no clue.
You trying to defend his ruck work is like me telling you Casboult is a great AFL footballer based on the stats I throw at you.
Both are lucky to be 2nds standard but we have no stocks to turn to so they keep getting a game. 

Mate, when you have the best contested ball winner in the comp, and club captain, and he gets done over for clearances by the ruck, and you point the finger at the ruck as being the issue? You are confusing where the blame lies.

I'm not saying Pittonet is worthy of votes, but to say he is the reason we lost and was beaten by a second gamer, nah, i'm calling BS on that.
Just when Grundy had 30 more hitouts than Pittonet and people were lauding his game, Pittonet beat him at every other stat that mattered, and some that didn't.

Stats are not the be all and end all, but i'm going to disagree with someone, i'm going to give evidence as to why.

FWIW, one of those frees against Pittonet was BS too. Sweet initiated contact, Pittonet was too strong and threw him out of the way.....while looking at the ball mind you...and was called for holding/pushing. Watch what Mummy does every game, and rewatch that and tell me its a free.

Pit is NOT and AFL standard ruckman. Not even close. He was beaten by a second gamer and was still unable to give our midfield any clear takeaways. HTF are we slaughtered in clearances with a 2nd gamer rucking. Can you imagine what Gawn will do to this bloke next week. Just shows you how far off it we are development wise when a 2nd gamer can come in and have an impact. Same with their first gamer he showed straight off that he had been developed. We are still a fair bit off it.

And don’t let me start on Cripps and Williams. Ffs I’m so sick of both of these blokes. Over paid over rated. Sick of excuses. If Cripps wants to go home good get a decent deal and catch ya later.  He needs to be dropped but won’t be. Kane Cornes is 110% right - he is not an elite midfielder had a few good years but is not damaging at all and gets burnt on the outside time and time again. Paying this bloke a cent more then 600k a year would be laughable.
Switch jumpers with Bont and Cripps today and we win by 6 goals.

Cripps doesn't see happy, if he wants to go so be it as you say. As long as he realises he is part of the problem, mentally weak to a man. It staggers me we can't devise a plan to stop 5 goal runs or the infield leaders (that's you Patrick) do nothing.
As for Zac, he is one less than impressive footballer. Nine touches and a tackle, there is nothing nice to say about that so Ill say nothing.

You know what’s embarrassing - anyone that tries to justify that performance using stats.
I watched the game and him in particular very closely apart from costing us 2 goals to frees he had no fking clue how to palm the ball to any sort of advantage. I reckon they could have used Daniels on the ruck and Pit wouldn’t know how to exploit it. Bombers did the same thing last week used a kid against him cause they know he has no clue.
You trying to defend his ruck work is like me telling you Casboult is a great AFL footballer based on the stats I throw at you.
Both are lucky to be 2nds standard but we have no stocks to turn to so they keep getting a game. 

Yes, Pitto was up against a rookie and a ruck nobody, and he couldn't use that situation to his or our advantage, the stats are a lie.

It's been the huge weakness, Pitto is a break even ruck, he'll probably break even with Gawn. But when he should he doesn't dominate an opponent, and when he gets a clear hand to the pill it's more often than not heading to opposition advantage.

If you can get the replay watch De Koning's game form earlier today, gets a clean hand puts it down a team-mates throat!

As for Zac, he is one less than impressive footballer. Nine touches and a tackle, there is nothing nice to say about that so Ill say nothing.

Zac is not suited to how he is being used, and probably injured.

If he was fit we would have swapped him and Saad today, but we didn't, so that is a tell.

Overall not a bad team effort, we lost not because of the momentum swing, but because we missed 2 or 3 easy goals from 20m out almost dead in front. We probably should have been 40+ up instead of 27.

Teague said in the post match that Williams copped a minor injury during the game (didn't say what), but the medicos said he was ok to go back on. OK can mean different things to different people I guess.

I don't think Williams' issue is positional. I just don't think he looks right.

Williams was a good player at GWS, but hasn’t fired a shot at Carlton. Why?

Did we get this horribly wrong?

I'll guess and say the following:
- he can't cope with the expectation of being a prized recruit.
- he seems lazy and isn't prepared to work hard to get into a game.
He might need some "easy kills" to get his form and hunger back, it aint gonna happen in the ones in the coming weeks. We have
- Melb
- Haw
- Syd
- WC
Play him in the 2s until he dominates.

If someone said we'd lose by 16, I'd have taken that.   To lose how we did was, however,  disappointing to say the least.

I'll guess and say the following:
- he can't cope with the expectation of being a prized recruit.
- he seems lazy and isn't prepared to work hard to get into a game.

He's learning the midfield @Gointocarlton‍ , he doesn't know where to run and when, he is not lazy, but the hesitation makes him look lazy!

HBF is straight line stuff, midfield is 360°.

Clueless coaching

I think I witnessed the most absolutely clueless/braindead coaching performance I have seen for many a day this arvo
18 straight clearances to the Dogs and our supercoach sits in the box looking like  Bambi in the headlights and scratches his chin . Lets Bont run head to head with Cripps all day and gets slaughtered...surly Curnow should have had him most of the day
Doesn't hardly make one change to try and switch things around..throw anyone in there...SPS,Eddie,Fogarty anyone FFS maybe Harry in the ruck for a few centre bounces...just try something
Zac Williams is an almighty $800k bust....gets on the park 50% of the time with chronic soft tissue injuries and can't even make the distance from 35-40m on a shot at goal...did we not do our homework?
Never fear Murph is fit and free to save us next weekend v the Dees

Just deplorable

Frustration at being good enough but again 5hitting the bed against top sides in last qtrs like against the Pies and GWS when finals were on the line last year. 5 goal lead means we are good enough against anyone, last qtr tells us there's a mental issue against good sides when leading. Cost us finals last year, costly again this year.

Weitering, what a superstar!

Teague said in the post match that Williams copped a minor injury during the game (didn't say what), but the medicos said he was ok to go back on. OK can mean different things to different people I guess.

I don't think Williams' issue is positional. I just don't think he looks right.

Playing midfield with Cogs, Kelly, Hopper, Ward, Taranto and Greene is an easier gig than having to step up and being one of the main men with us. I agree he doesnt look right but he also isnt used to running around all day and having to be a prime mover.
I'd be playing him on the half back line and working him into form and fitness, its a bit like McGovern, the latter was the 4th/5th banana at the Crows and now is expected to be No 2 with us with Charlie out and thats not going to work nor is expecting Williams to be No 3 mid behind Cripps and Walsh without some time to work his way into form and getting to know his teammates IMHO.

Clueless coaching

I think I witnessed the most absolutely clueless/braindead coaching performance I have seen for many a day this arvo
18 straight clearances to the Dogs and our supercoach sits in the box looking like  Bambi in the headlights and scratches his chin . Lets Bont run head to head with Cripps all day and gets slaughtered...surly Curnow should have had him most of the day
Doesn't hardly make one change to try and switch things around..throw anyone in there...SPS,Eddie,Fogarty anyone FFS...........................................................

According to the post match, Teague said they tried several things, but none of them worked.

Yes, Pitto was up against a rookie and a ruck nobody, and he couldn't use that situation to his or our advantage, the stats are a lie.

It's been the huge weakness, Pitto is a break even ruck, he'll probably break even with Gawn. But when he should he doesn't dominate an opponent, and when he gets a clear hand to the pill it's more often than not heading to opposition advantage.

If you can get the replay watch De Koning's game form earlier today, gets a clean hand puts it down a team-mates throat!

Yep exactly - I hear stats show he ‘won’ the ruck well stats obviously can be very misleading if that’s the case.
Has no clue at all how to tap to our mids advantage and if there was ever a day to show us he can actually ruck today was it and failed again.
Bring TDK in pls. 

..................its a bit like McGovern, the latter was the 4th/5th banana at the Crows and now is expected to be No 2 with us with Charlie out and thats not going to work nor is expecting Williams to be No 3 mid behind Cripps and Walsh without some time to work his way into form and getting to know his teammates IMHO.

Yes, when I state Williams doesn't know where and when to run, it's about familiarity with team-mates as much as basic football. Who turns left or right, who can accelerate, who will hit you with a handball, who lobs it up in front, who tackles, who bumps, etc., etc..

I suspect LOB will be close to a recall, has looked good 3 weeks running and has been a nice VFL ball user.

Not sure what to make of SPS being emergency, but he looked a bit slow when he came on this week.

According to the post match, Teague said they tried several things, but none of them worked.

Another run of 5 consecutive goals plus conceded but Teague and Carlton..    It's been an issue since Teague started.   They just can't stop the bleeding.

Another run of 5 consecutive goals plus conceded by Teague and Carlton. It's been an issue since Teague started.  They just can't stop the bleeding.

Yep, I agree. Those little windows of opportunity we give to other teams will end up being a coach killer. I'm not sure how many coaches, strategists etc. it takes to fix the issue. I wonder if we need to bring in some kind of extra help, a top defensive mind maybe ? Because Teague and the assistants don't seem to be up to the task.

Another run of 5 consecutive goals plus conceded but Teague and Carlton..    It's been an issue since Teague started.   They just can't stop the bleeding.

Its started at the end of the 3rd quarter, they got a couple late and we just started to wilt and they smelt blood.
We looked tired in the last and just couldnt go with the Dogs who spread well, think they are the No 1 team for uncontested possies and thats due to their run and work rate.
You need strong leadership to rally the group onfield when under siege and thats an issue for us IMO.....

Zac is not suited to how he is being used, and probably injured.

If he was fit we would have swapped him and Saad today, but we didn't, so that is a tell.

Overall not a bad team effort, we lost not because of the momentum swing, but because we missed 2 or 3 easy goals from 20m out almost dead in front. We probably should have been 40+ up instead of 27.

LP you, the coach and everyone else needs to stop making excuses for a bloke that is expected to deliver more than 9 disposals and a tackle. If he kicked 4-5 goals with those 9 possies I'd STFU. But we he delivered today was tripe and embarrassing.
Ill admit that I had never seen much of Zac at GWS nor did I notice him much, but I was perplexed at what we spent to get him. What he produced today (and thus far) is what I'd expect from an 18 year old first year, not a 26 year old on a fat, long term contract.
Harsh? You better bloody believe it and to be honest I dont give a crap.

Mate, when you have the best contested ball winner in the comp, and club captain, and he gets done over for clearances by the ruck, and you point the finger at the ruck as being the issue? You are confusing where the blame lies.

I'm not saying Pittonet is worthy of votes, but to say he is the reason we lost and was beaten by a second gamer, nah, i'm calling BS on that.
Just when Grundy had 30 more hitouts than Pittonet and people were lauding his game, Pittonet beat him at every other stat that mattered, and some that didn't.

Stats are not the be all and end all, but i'm going to disagree with someone, i'm going to give evidence as to why.

FWIW, one of those frees against Pittonet was BS too. Sweet initiated contact, Pittonet was too strong and threw him out of the way.....while looking at the ball mind you...and was called for holding/pushing. Watch what Mummy does every game, and rewatch that and tell me its a free.

Give me 5 occasions where pit tapped the ball to put mids clear advantage. Just 5 is all I’m asking for.  Give me the quarter and the time. Issue is you
can’t do it cause it didn’t happen.
Taps without ‘to advantage’ is rubbish talk.

Spin it anyway you want, they had their starting ruck and their backup ruck both out and out guy was still unable to give our mids any tap to advantage.

He is miles off AFL Standard and this is the 2nd week he has a unknown kid as an opponent and he failed to assist us.
Sorry but I call it as I see it not as the stats tell me.
I know you like him and that’s fine- he does compete hard at ground level gives but he is miles off the standard as a tap ruckman - miles off it.
Our mids have to fight and slog it out for every possession they win in the middle. Be nice if they got a few easy takeaways like most other mids receive but it won’t happen till TDK comes in.

Williams has two problems.  1.  He is a currently not 100% and you can see it.  The bloke has much more footy in him than we are seeing and him and Cripps seem to be suffering from a similar affliction.  2.  The intention to transform him into a midfielder is fine, but he needs to be on the wing where he can hurt teams with his disposal.  See number 1 issue regarding why we are not doing this.

You see snippets of his ball use and just think, ok, thats why we paid big money for him, and then we go and hide him in a back pocket for almost a quarter.  IF he isnt fit, just get him up and running and play him later (my fear is that he has a significant issue ala Daisy, and we may not see more of his best footy for a while, and he will go in for an operation at the end of the year which will make us all go, OH, thats it).

Treloar was available off season.  Some bolder list management, and we might have been able to pinch him at a heavy discount for not much.

When I found out we were going after Williams, I was surprised.  Sure, he's quick, when he delivers to advantage, he makes the rest of our team look like sunday league triers (and that is an understatement).

I was entertaining people today and didnt see as much as the game as I would have liked, but I saw a sequence of just sheer stupid decisions and skill execution errors that led to us losing the ability to control the footy.

Harry Plays on near the wing for no reason.
Stocker handballed into traffic and missed the target which resulted in a goal.
Fogarty tried a short handball left handed rather than just knocking it inside 50 and it was cut off and rebounded for yet another doggies opportunity for goal.

Lots of missed chances where we should have hit the scoreboard harder and didnt resulting in the momentum shift, and bringing pressure back on ourselves.

We played reasonably well for periods, but when the Doggies went up a gear, we just couldnt go with them and kept making dumb errors via stupid decisions/ball use, or just plain crap execution.  Both are a feature of the Carlton football club over the last 10 years, so to see it reflected on field is hardly surprising (Ahem, Daisy, Ahem, Malthouse, Ahem, lets go all out for McGovern, Williams and Saad... none of which are what I would call X factor recruits, nor do they fill any specific requirement, which makes them a bit of a no mans land, hail mary.  High risk, low reward targets.)

I think we did this trying to bring in some experienced heads to help transition away from our previous stalwarts.  The end is not far for quite a few for our seasoned regulars.

On a side note, was really pleased to see some of Cunninghams work.  He is really showing why we chose him, and he is the most underated player on our list at the moment.

I forgot something.  Walsh is a genuine star, and he went quiet in the last, because the bulldogs gave him ALOT of attention, and it clearly stopped us and got them going.

On a side note, was really pleased to see some of Cunninghams work.  He is really showing why we chose him, and he is the most underated player on our list at the moment.

I forgot something.  Walsh is a genuine star, and he went quiet in the last, because the bulldogs gave him ALOT of attention, and it clearly stopped us and got them going.

Yes, two big positives.

If Walsh lacks anything it's pace, yet he finds his way to compete against one of the faster sides!

I thought Pittonet was serviceable but not dominant, they have a very deep midfield and its very hard to cover them all in terms of like for like talent when you are relying on stoppers. IMO we could have selected Setterfield this week who I think would have been a good opponent for Macrae or the Bont given he has more size.
Cripps opponent is always a worry if they are a class player and we cant keep on pretending its not an issue as he just doesnt man up, cant chase in most cases, and his opponent runs loose. You are relying then on Cripps getting more possessions and doing more damage to offset the lack of accountability on his part and thats not going to work for 4 quarters vs class players all the time.
This week he will get it easier as Oliver will get his 25-30 possies but wont do as much with them as say the Bont or a Steele and Cripps should be more effective himself and I would expect him to push forward more.
Pittonet has to be viewed as our Stef Martin, reliable big body to limit the damage but wont ever be dominant , he was a twos player behind McEvoy and Ceglar for a reason and is a stop gap until we groom TDK and probably another kid ruck to be our next ruck duo.

Zac Williams is timid ... afraid to take on the game because his pay packet doesn't demand sacrifice and effort. 

Try pinning that label on Betts.  One's a champion, the other a fifth grader and stuff the arguments about injuries or positions.  He's no good.

Teague?  A cigar store Indian in the Carlton box would make for more viewing interest.

  

Felt like we were playing the Storm today with the amount of throws the dogs get away with.

Zac Williams is timid ... afraid to take on the game because his pay packet doesn't demand sacrifice and effort. 

Try pinning that label on Betts.  One's a champion, the other a fifth grader and stuff the arguments about injuries or positions.  He's no good.

Teague?  A cigar store Indian in the Carlton box would make for more viewing interest.

  

Teague is getting that Bolton look.....

Zac Williams is timid ... afraid to take on the game because his pay packet doesn't demand sacrifice and effort. 

Try pinning that label on Betts.  One's a champion, the other a fifth grader and stuff the arguments about injuries or positions.  He's no good.

Teague?  A cigar store Indian in the Carlton box would make for more viewing interest.

I'm tipping Williams is having Achilles issues. That was the rumour last week, which we passed off as general soreness. He missed all 2019 with it.

I'm tipping Williams is having Achilles issues. That was the rumour last week, which we passed off as general soreness. He missed all 2019 with it.

Why is he playing? I call BS.

Teague is getting that Bolton look.....

The Carlton Football Club will do that to you.

The problem for us is at no stage did we put our foot on the doggies throat or even keep them at arms length, they always knew they could win from behind no matter how far that was.
They had belief and we started to try and save the game from halfway through the third
Lack of leadership and coaching we should have slowed the game down, kept possession and taken the momentum out of their charge by bringing the pressure of the clock onto our side
But no another honourable loss when we got tired and lost composure. Sick of it, when’s Russell going to do what he’s supposedly the best in the business at get us match hard and fit can’t see any results yet for the time he’s been there. Might be good to lose a few more as we are going nowhere as usual and play some blokes who are going alright in the 2s

Why is he playing? I call BS.

Fox were onto it last week saying it was an achilles issue that we called general soreness. Had achilles issues all his career. Like after round 3 when ch.7 told us Cripps was having back and groin issues. We denied it but in both cases the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Both are terrific players struggling big time. Doubt it's just coincidence.

Fox were onto it last week saying it was an achilles issue that we called general soreness. Had achilles issues all his career. Like after round 3 when ch.7 told us Cripps was having back and groin issues. We denied it but in both cases the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Both are terrific players struggling big time. Doubt it's just coincidence.

You didn't answer the question, why did he play injured?

The problem for us is at no stage did we put our foot on the doggies throat or even keep them at arms length, they always knew they could win from behind no matter how far that was.
They had belief and we started to try and save the game from halfway through the third
Lack of leadership and coaching we should have slowed the game down, kept possession and taken the momentum out of their charge by bringing the pressure of the clock onto our side
But no another honourable loss when we got tired and lost composure. Sick of it, when’s Russell going to do what he’s supposedly the best in the business at get us match hard and fit can’t see any results yet for the time he’s been there. Might be good to lose a few more as we are going nowhere as usual and play some blokes who are going alright in the 2s

X2!

Big time!

Show some screwing on field leadership and cram up the ball, throw players at the problem, not stand by and let them kick 8 unanswered goals for screws sake!

You didn't answer the question, why did he play injured?

How many blokes in footy history have played injured. Like really. I'm sure you know that.

How long did Essendon take to admit Daniher has a bad groin issue? How long did Tommy Hawkins play with that bad back a number of years ago when he couldn't even bend over. Clubs keep sending them out there as they are their best players  often not telling the public putting unfair scrutiny on players.

We need to find why we have 5hit the bed in big games in last qtrs the last 2 years. We have the ability when we decide to apply ourselves. Can't complain about the attitude today but the psychologist will have more work than the coaches this week. Stop us making finals last year. Now happened again today.

I'm tipping Williams is having Achilles issues. That was the rumour last week, which we passed off as general soreness. He missed all 2019 with it.

If that rumour is correct, why did Carlton go after him?  Achilles issues almost always end badly, usually needing an operation and months of physio.

How many blokes in footy history have played injured. Like really. I'm sure you know that.

How long did Essendon take to admit Daniher has a bad groin issue? How long did Tommy Hawkins play with that bad back a number of years ago when he couldn't even bend over. Clubs keep sending them out there as they are their best players  often not telling the public putting unfair scrutiny on players.

Im not buying, lets agree to disagree.

We need to find why we have 5hit the bed in big games in last qtrs the last 2 years. We have the ability when we decide to apply ourselves. Can't complain about the attitude today but the psychologist will have more work than the coaches this week. Stop us making finals last year. Now happened again today.

At this rate, our psychs will need psychs.

I can just imagine the doggies players thinking to themselves, gee we're not playing too well here at the moment. Thank Christ we're playing Carlton. Sooner or later they'll start to wet their pants and we can take over.

Teague is getting that Bolton look.....

All I know (in my current mood) right now is that in the space of one game, he's lost much credit.  That was an "F minus" on any report card.

@31Tommys_barber has raised a more than valid point ... just what has the Russell messiah delivered?  SFA as far as I can see.

EDIT add Barker too.  What's that fat slob done?

Just watched the replay, was out for the live game. We looked  the goods for nearly 3Qs then just dropped our bundle. OK the Dogs surged but we just seemed to meekly fade away, almost expecting to lose.  Very disappointed after such a promising start. Still no real self belief in the face of a strong challenge.

Just watched the replay, was out for the live game. We looked  the goods for nearly 3Qs then just dropped our bundle. OK the Dogs surged but we just seemed to meekly fade away, almost expecting to lose.  Very disappointed after such a promising start. Still no real self belief in the face of a strong challenge.    

Agree.  No leadership when pressure was applied.  It reminded me of the Tour de France when the leading group knows it will be caught by the peloton before the finish line and just goes through the motions.

'Lack of leadership once the pressure came' seems to be a common theme creeping through the discussion.
That certainly wasn't a problem the Bulldogs had at the end.

How is it that we can't man up? So many times we see the opposition get easy goals from the HB or even FB line when there's a switch of play.  That's got to be a coaching issue.

The dog's lucky to still be alive after some of the instances today.

'Lack of leadership once the pressure came' seems to be a common theme creeping through the discussion.
That certainly wasn't a problem the Bulldogs had at the end.

Unfortunately it's a recurring theme Lods. We have been over the ground many times on here.

I know this simmering bloody anger ain't gonna subside right thru to the Melbourne game.

Not just for me either.  We'll be 3 / 6.

When it comes to losing, we are Pavlov's Dogs!

Not sure what Teague can do with Cripps and Williams, both looked injured and both spent extended periods on the bench, the next step is probably a week off followed by a week in the VFL.

Injuries don't just cripple performance, they cripple confidence!

If we had gone goal for goal for 3 and 4/5 quarters and gone down by 15 points in the wash up, would the narrative now be different?

Pittonet has to be viewed as our Stef Martin, reliable big body to limit the damage but wont ever be dominant , he was a twos player behind McEvoy and Ceglar for a reason and is a stop gap until we groom TDK and probably another kid ruck to be our next ruck duo.

Yes, this is the point fans need to accept about Pitto, huge heart will keep competing with all he's got, but what he's got isn't enough to make up for our midfield issues.

Losing Kreuzer permanently has really exposed our lack of midfield depth, the big guy might have struggled to get out there, but when he did he was another onballer.

Despite my criticisms, I think Kreuzer has Pitto, Levi and De Koning playing better than ever, you can see the changes and if you watched the VFL you can see the changes in De Koning are exceptional. The guy competes and hits the deck running like a mid!

Pitto is not that type of ruck, he's a wrestle man, long term he'll be more than useful but might again find himself as 2IC. But we do need that type, long term it may become a flip between Pitto and Levi in the 2nd ruck KPP role next to De Koning, horses for courses.

The issues of tapping to advantage are a bigger problem for Pitto, it probably comes down to vision and spatial awareness, not sure that can be taught or coached. He plays like a ruck who has struggled to get a hand on the footy at bounces his whole career, so when he does he is almost shocked to have won and panics!

Not sure how this will go down, but it's almost time for Cripps and others to play 2nd fiddle to Walsh, the kid is getting better under more duress! He's an enigma and could end up as good as Diesel! Fans might be cynical because they only remember the good Diesel, but when Diesel started he was slow and couldn't hit a barn with a kick from 20m. Then pretty much over one solitary pre-season he taught himself serious left and right side kicking to 35m and became a superstar!

btw., I think that is the trick to getting more out of Cripps, improve his left and right side so that he can go either way. Forget all the sprint shizen and contested marking, goal kicking, leave him powerful and give him the gift of time and space by allowing him to turn either way and kick accurately to about 35m!

If we had gone goal for goal for 3 and 4/5 quarters and gone down by 15 points in the wash up, would the narrative now be different?

Absolutely, we’d be proud they took it up to the 2nd on the ladder!

Fact is, we dominated the game for 3.5 quarters, and coulda shoulda put them away for good but didn’t and then lost our crap and lost the game.

Are we playing too many injured payers @ElwoodBlues1‍ , between Cripps and Williams they almost spent a quarter on the bench!

Neither is 'right' based on output.

One should expect a close to A grade effort/performance = got D grades in both from both. There's the game right there.

Throw in ordinary stuff from the likes of Fogarty, Gibbo, SPS and Cottrell (ok in patches), well you're never going to win a game against decent opposition.

Metricon is certainly not a happy hunting ground.  But we drop our bundle so readily ...

I dunno, but that type of defeat saps confidence to the point that we just don't know what to do if and when we build a lead ... but we're lousy at defending one.

 

I still have difficulty in understanding why we keep playing injured players.
Cripps isn't right, Williams definitely isn't OK
We're just driving them into the ground, and by extension we put additional pressure on other players to stand up....and we drive them into the ground.
Walsh has had a great start to the year but if he keeps having to 'pick up the slack' he'll end up broken too.
Surely one of our 'wealth' of midfielders would have been a better option than Williams yesterday.

Is half a Cripps better than a whole other player...that may be the case, but by playing Cripps injured you just break him a bit more.

If you play them, the assumption is they're OK.
Far better to 'come clean', say they're not 'well' and pull them out.
If we lose the game by an extra couple of goals, so what.
As it is these guys aren't making a difference anyway.

When it comes to losing, we are Pavlov's Dogs!

Not sure what Teague can do with Cripps and Williams, both looked injured and both spent extended periods on the bench, the next step is probably a week off followed by a week in the VFL.

Injuries don't just cripple performance, they cripple confidence!

And the commentary team claimed that Levi is "playing hurt" whatever that means, but it doesn't sound good.

Would love the media to question Teague about starting Cripps on the bench after half time. And before he came on he was on the phone to someone and looked to be a little heated. Something is up imo and imo  it has nothing to do with an injury. 
I was so p1ssed off with Cripps defensively before half time and his lack of accountability or willingness to chase or pressure when he doesn’t have the ball. Maybe I wasn’t the only one who saw it.

And the commentary team claimed that Levi is "playing hurt" whatever that means, but it doesn't sound good.

Levi has been on one leg for most of the year and is actually improving every week.

Would love the media to question Teague about starting Cripps on the bench after half time. And before he came on he was on the phone to someone and looked to be a little heated. Something is up imo and imo  it has nothing to do with an injury. 
I was so p1ssed off with Cripps defensively before half time and his lack of accountability or willingness to chase or pressure when he doesn’t have the ball. Maybe I wasn’t the only one who saw it.

That phone call was interesting...he wasn't talking to Teague because they cut to him in the box at the same time.
Probably nothing to read into it...a message being passed by one of the assistants perhaps.
It was just noticeable because it wasn't a captain/coach conversation.

And the commentary team claimed that Levi is "playing hurt" whatever that means, but it doesn't sound good.

Levi come into the season with a bad knee. Not surprised. If we keep playing too many that are not right then no wonder we get run over after playing great footy.

Think the mental issue holding leads in big games has been a issue for 2 years. Last year, Geelong, where we held on at least, then Collingwood and GWS in consecutive games when finals were on the line, then the Dogs yesterday. Played great footy in all then lost in bad in the last qtr. Complain and players, coach all we want, have the mental issues right in those games and we win pretty well. Needs to be addressed.

We got beaten by a team that had our measure from the bounce.  I find the commentary surrounding it very interesting.

Food for thought, Mitch Wallis played in the VFL on the weekend.  He would be a walk up start for us currently.   Speaks volumes. 

Levi has been on one leg for most of the year and is actually improving every week.

Somewhere (maybe BF) someone suggested he was having his knee drained every week so he could get out there....

But again, he wasn't the problem yesterday, it all hangs on the midfield and their persistent vanishing act!

Even with 10 minutes to go, no one stood up, showed some composure or leadership.

Cripps and Williams aside, what has happened to Gibbons and Newnes?

They have become mediocre at best.

I'd be switching those two for Honey/LOB and Murphy - little downside. Murphy plays on ball.

Cripps a rest, ditto Williams. Dow and Ramsay - no real loss, might be no names but can't do any worse than those big names yesterday.

Kennedy for SOJ.

TDK for Levi.

We got beaten by a team that had our measure from the bounce.  I find the commentary surrounding it very interesting.

Food for thought, Mitch Wallis played in the VFL on the weekend.  He would be a walk up start for us currently.   Speaks volumes. 

With Guv and SOJ injured, yes. Otherwise no.

It takes several years to build a team like the Dogs. Several years of staying composed and sticking to the task, several years of stability. It takes longer to build a team like that if you keep changing things every 5 minutes. The teams that have had dynasties in recent times have all stayed focussed and had years of stability before their tenure at the top.

............................

Not sure how this will go down, but it's almost time for Cripps and others to play 2nd fiddle to Walsh, the kid is getting better under more duress! He's an enigma and could end up as good as Diesel! Fans might be cynical because they only remember the good Diesel, but when Diesel started he was slow and couldn't hit a barn with a kick from 20m. Then pretty much over one solitary pre-season he taught himself serious left and right side kicking to 35m and became a superstar!

btw., I think that is the trick to getting more out of Cripps, improve his left and right side so that he can go either way. Forget all the sprint shizen and contested marking, goal kicking, leave him powerful and give him the gift of time and space by allowing him to turn either way and kick accurately to about 35m!

This is a good point IMO. Sam Mitchell and Diesel should be his points of reference.

I expect Williams,  and possibly Cripps,  to be "managed" this week, when in reality both should be simply dropped and given a rocket.   Williams is taking the piss with his mediocre output thus far and Cripps - I just  don't know - seems so far removed from the player he has been it's sad,  really worrying.

I expect Williams,  and possibly Cripps,  to be "managed" this week, when in reality both should be simply dropped and given a rocket.   Williams is taking the piss with his mediocre output thus far and Cripps - I just  don't know - seems so far removed from the player he has been it's sad,  really worrying.

Both be managed as their are obviously carrying injuring. Media have been on to it,club keeps denying it. Good players don't play that crappy. Cripps has been one of the superstars of the comp but now struggles to get a kick. Has to be a reason for that. Carrying 3 injured blokes can't help.

My fault. I looked up the live ladder when 27pts up so see how close we were to the 8. A couple more goals would've done it. From that moment it was downhill...lol.

Williams has bone bruising on his ankle I think it is. Why on earth he is just not given 4 weeks or whatever off and the Club come out and say so is doing no one any favours.

Re other players to invite in to the Club in the off season, apart from rold gold types like free agent Zach Merrett, I'd be keen on established Premiership players, as I have said a number of times before.

Our Club lacks high standards and expectations and lacks a winning culture.

Josh Caddy (contracted for 2022 but can't get a game), Kamdyn McIntosh (uncontracted end of 2021), Jason Castagna (uncontracted end of 2021). All Premiership players and would add to our winning culture that we have basically none of.

As for our coaching group, apart from Luke Power, none of our coaches have any Premiership winning experience I don't think either.

Watching the VFL game - Corey Durdin brings the tackle, harassing and chasing pressure, hardness and intensity that we lack. I'd play him this week.

Watching the VFL game - Corey Durdin brings the tackle, harassing and chasing pressure, hardness and intensity that we lack. I'd play him this week.

 In for Gibbons?

In for Gibbons?

Gibbons hasn't troubled the scorers since rnd 3. Time for a run in the 2s.

I think when comparing Gibbons 2021 to Gibbons 2020 or 2019 he has changed his game, is that Gibbons or coaching?

Statistically not much has changed, but perhaps the arrival of Betts and the increased presence of McKay subtracts a bit from Gibbons potential. Plus we now have Fisher concentrating on SFP and Fogarty, it must make a difference.

Perhaps opposition are now also making him more accountable, having his opponent push forward forcing Gibbons to spend more time defending. But that can be an MC issue as well, they must manage the balance of who defends versus who attacks.

I feel Gibbons needs to add a new dimension to his game, whether that is in and under, or marking, he needs to broaden his influence.

Gibbons hasn't troubled the scorers since rnd 3. Time for a run in the 2s.

Agree, been a fan as I am of most ex VFL moneyball players but MG hasnt kicked on this season and he is looking less likely as a mid to long term option with his present form.
I'd like to play Honey and get a more vigorous player into the team , if we have to replace like for like then I would take up Prattys suggestion and play Corey Durdin who looks a capable prospect and is quicker than Gibbons.
Be a No to LOB and Dow.....

Be a No to LOB and Dow.....

LOB has looked good at VFL level, why not try him on a wing?

LOB has looked good at VFL level, why not try him on a wing?

Wasnt in the best players this week, previous week played with a lack of interest like he knows its over...
CARLTON
Goal Kickers: B. Crocker 4, J. Honey 2, M. Kennedy, T. North
Best Players: S. Radovanovic, C. Durdin, J. Honey, T. Williamson, N. Newman, T. De Koning

IMHO...Honey and Durdin deserve a game ahead of LOB and Dow.
My ins would be TDK and one of Honey or Durdin......JSOS(inj) and Gibbons out....and I'd think about making the sub the one out of Honey or Durdin who misses out and SPS can have a full game in the twos.

LOB has looked good at VFL level, why not try him on a wing?

Christ LP. If you watch the game he played yesterday you wouldn't be saying that.

For what it's worth.
I'd make the obvious choice of TDK for Levi. That is a no-brainer so even our selection team couldn't stuff that one up.
I'm thinking we could also bring Newman back after 2 solid hit-outs in the magoos. Play him at HBF and release Saad to a wing? That would mean either Cottrell or Newnes comes out. I think Cottrell at least has a bit more pace so Newnes makes way.
Gibbons comes out for Honey who has a bit of speed, more height and can take a grab.
Jack is out and I would seriously bring back Dow, who shouldn't have dropped in the first place, and who I think did pretty well in the 2's and am surprised wasn't named in the best. He certainly did more than Durdin, Honey and Williamson. Just on Willo. A shadow of the bloke who looked the goods just a couple of years ago.
SPS makes way for Durdin as the medical sub. Or maybe Murphy if he has to come back.
Don't know what to do with Cripps. He is a liability at the moment but we can't even hide him up forward.
Our 2's are really pretty good. We have depth. Let's use it.

My fault. I looked up the live ladder when 27pts up so see how close we were to the 8. A couple more goals would've done it. From that moment it was downhill...lol.

Ha!!  Done that many a time   (why did i go the tolilet then, i knew wicket would fall if i got up....)

I thought newman went off with an elbow on the weekend?

I thought newman went off with an elbow on the weekend?

Hurt it early but played on.

Wasn't as effective as his first week back, but the injury might have been an issue.

LOB has looked good at VFL level, why not try him on a wing?

At that level LOB has that extra bit of time and his kicking is impressive.
As we've seen before it's that jump up in speed and pressure that finds him less effective.

Still if he does perform he should get another go.
A couple more games and we should see the start of "try-outs" for a spot on the list next year. ;)

Jack is out and I would seriously bring back Dow, who shouldn't have dropped in the first place.

We need to replace like for like with Jack and I think that Matthew Kennedy is the way to go.  Can mark overhead, can tackle and can kick straight

We need to replace like for like with Jack and I think that Matthew Kennedy is the way to go.  Can mark overhead, can tackle and can kick straight

I like Matt Kennedy but like LOB I think his papers are stamped.....I'd use Cripps forward more this week, he will have Harmes for company or Oliver
and I think its time to get proactive rather than reactive. Cripps might not be able to kick straight but he will cause matchup issues if he plays forward
and might throw the Dees defense out a bit if someone like Lever has to take him.
Give some more responsibility to one of Dow and Setterfield to take some of Cripps time in the middle and get them to grow their game.

From Jay Clark in the HS, a breakdown of what happened and when:

How did the disaster play out? Jay Clark takes an in-depth look at each goal and what went wrong for the Blues.

3 MIN 15 SEC REMAINING Q3

Josh Bruce goal

Car 82 WB 61

A Liam Stocker turnover in the middle of the ground was costly as Caleb Daniel found Lachie Hunter all alone with a surgical kick to the forward flank. Hunter, who played on with a broken hand, kicked long to Josh Bruce who outmarked Lachie Plowman 15m from goal.

1 MIN 30 SEC REM Q3

Aaron Naughton goal

Car 82 WB 68

What an effort from the Dogs’ star spearhead. Naughton produced a desperate chase on Adam Saad to force the Blues’ speedster into a kicking error and then took a big pack mark at the top of the goal square from the kick back inside 50m from Easton Wood. It was a strong grab from Naughton who plucked the ball either side of Jacob Weitering and Liam Jones in the marking contest.

15 MIN 20 SEC REM Q4

Lachie Hunter goal

Car 83 WB 74

The Blues were pinned down in their back half when Adam Saad gave away two free kicks. Saad first pushed Lachie McNeil in the back and then caught Lachie Hunter high as the Dogs’ ballwinner swivelled and leant in with his head to draw the high contact 35m from goal. Nice set shot from Hunter to slot his second major.

13 MIN 40 SEC REM Q4

Marcus Bontempelli goal

Car 83 WB 80

The Dogs built this one up from half back where Bailey Dale hit Caleb Daniel with a 50m bullet to the wing. Zaine Cordy and Mitch Hannan linked up on the wing before skipper Marcus Bontempelli took another contested mark at the top of the goal square in front of Liam Jones. Josh Bruce bodied Liam Stocker out of the way so Stocker couldn’t spoil from the side and there was no other aerial support for Jones. Also no Carlton player stood the mark for the Bontempelli set shot from point blank range.

7 MIN 40 SEC REM Q4

Aaron Naughton goal

Car 84 WB 88

A loopy kick from Michael Gibbons on the wing was quickly repelled as Marcus Bontempelli off two steps produced a dazzling pass to Jason Johannisen tight on the boundary line. Johannisen then kicked to the advantage of Naughton who was too strong for Matthew Parks over the back in a one-on-one marking contest. The 35m set shot continued the Dogs’ hot run.

6 MIN 50 SEC REM Q4

Anthony Scott goal

Car 84 WB 94

Adam Treloar fought hard inside the centre square to continue the annihilation out of the middle. Jack Macrae showed great vision to find Caleb Daniel with another brilliant Bulldogs’ handpass to set up Taylor Duryea 10m in front of Liam Stocker on the forward flank. Lachie McNeil roved the long kick in off the back of the pack and unselfishly handballed to Anthony Scott who goaled from close in on the run. The Carlton back line was under siege.

5 MIN 50 SEC REM Q4

Josh Bruce goal

Car 84 WB 100

Marc Pittonet grabbed it out of the ruck and kicked long but Caleb Daniel continued his excellent second half with a one-handed intercept mark. Patrick Lipinski, Bailey Smith and Anthony Scott then burned off their Carlton opponents spreading hard to the edges of the Marvel Stadium turf to bring the ball forward. Josh Bruce had no opponent in the forward pocket and finished the play with a curling left foot snap.

1 MIN 55 SEC REM Q4

Patrick Lipinski goal

Car 85 WB 106

The Dogs went the full length of the ground for their eighth-straight goal. Josh Bruce took the crucial contested mark on the wing, making Liam Jones pay for going the mark instead of a spoil from behind. Ruckman Jordon Sweet won a contested ball at ground level to release Marcus Bontempelli who delivered another gem of a pass on the left foot to hit Patrick Lipinski in space deep in attack.

The fact that we were run down in the last quarter and a bit like so much Navy Blue roadkill should not obscure the fact that for almost 3 quarters we had the measure of what is indisputably superior opposition. It took their best player (and arguably best or 2nd best in the comp) giving the best individual performance of anyone this season to ignite them.

Give me 5 occasions where pit tapped the ball to put mids clear advantage. Just 5 is all I’m asking for.  Give me the quarter and the time. Issue is you
can’t do it cause it didn’t happen.
Taps without ‘to advantage’ is rubbish talk.

Spin it anyway you want, they had their starting ruck and their backup ruck both out and out guy was still unable to give our mids any tap to advantage.

He is miles off AFL Standard and this is the 2nd week he has a unknown kid as an opponent and he failed to assist us.
Sorry but I call it as I see it not as the stats tell me.
I know you like him and that’s fine- he does compete hard at ground level gives but he is miles off the standard as a tap ruckman - miles off it.
Our mids have to fight and slog it out for every possession they win in the middle. Be nice if they got a few easy takeaways like most other mids receive but it won’t happen till TDK comes in.

Hitouts win rate
Pittonet - 50.8
Sweet - 25

Hitouts to advantage
Pittonet - 8
Sweet - 4

Hitout to advantage rate
Pittonet - 24.2
Sweet - 23.5

So he got his hand to the ball more.
When he did get his hand to the ball he found a teammate as often as Sweet did when he got his hand to the ball. That is, they were equally effective finding a teammate when they got their hand to the ball......but Pittonet did it more often, and thus had more 'to advantage' than Sweet.

So stats are clear as day.

I like him, but i'm not suggesting he is an elite ruck across the board.

However, as far as tap work. Last year he was listed as 'Elite'.
This year he is listed as 'above average'.
You know what, i'll take that. Thats why i stick up for him when someone calls for his head because his stats are not as bad as the 'supporters' are making out. Quite the opposite in fact.

Not sure what we are doing with Stocker, attacks the footy well but can look a bit lost at times and I'd get him out of the backline
and run him on the ball where he played his best footy at U18 level.
Appreciate he hasnt had much footy but when you have a backline getting assaulted like ours was its not fair on the kid and Id swap him out and get Williams or Newman back there who are defensive specialists.
SPS didnt work as a defender and I think its time re-educate the educators on how not every young mid has to spend time down back getting their confidence wrecked.

Not sure what we are doing with Stocker, attacks the footy well but can look a bit lost at times and I'd get him out of the backline
and run him on the ball where he played his best footy at U18 level.
Appreciate he hasnt had much footy but when you have a backline getting assaulted like ours was its not fair on the kid and Id swap him out and get Williams or Newman back there who are defensive specialists.
SPS didnt work as a defender and I think its time re-educate the educators on how not every young mid has to spend time down back getting their confidence wrecked.

We are still lacking a small, lockdown defender.

Not many players i can see on our list who are really capable of it, but i've come up with 2.

1. Ed Curnow.
He is getting older, and perhaps we need him to sacrifice his game for the team, playing deep in defence might be an option worth looking into. He'd be perfect for Dusty types who go middle and forward at their leisure.

2. Matt Cottrell
I've said he is the most likely to take over from Curnow as a tagger (good tank, loves contact, never says die) but if we don't want to move Curnow back, perhaps we use Cottrell there instead.

Either way, its 1 less 'mid' which allows us to try Stocker, SPS or whoever else we are forcing to play a secondary role instead of their favoured midfield role.

We are still lacking a small, lockdown defender.

Not many players i can see on our list who are really capable of it, but i've come up with 2.

1. Ed Curnow.
He is getting older, and perhaps we need him to sacrifice his game for the team, playing deep in defence might be an option worth looking into. He'd be perfect for Dusty types who go middle and forward at their leisure.

2. Matt Cottrell
I've said he is the most likely to take over from Curnow as a tagger (good tank, loves contact, never says die) but if we don't want to move Curnow back, perhaps we use Cottrell there instead.

Either way, its 1 less 'mid' which allows us to try Stocker, SPS or whoever else we are forcing to play a secondary role instead of their favoured midfield role.

Reckon Ed would do the lockdown bit ok but using the footy deep down back by foot would worry me in a Liam Jones type of way....Dogs got Duryea for nothing we need that type of moneyball pickup to come our away with a small lockdown defender.
The Cottrell idea has merit though as he is a sensible player, not a bad kick and happy to sacrifice his game...

Further to the Pittonet defending....
Apparantly Nick Bryan beat him last week too

Hitouts
Pittonet - 35
Bryan - 18

Hitouts to advantage
Pittonet - 10
Bryan - 2

Hitouts to advantage rate
Pittonet - 28.6
Bryan - 11.1

So beaten 2 weeks in a row in the ruck is complete and utter BS.

FWIW, season stats for hitouts to advantage AFL wide....
1. Grundy - 106
2. Gawn - 92
3. Natanui - 87
4. Pittonet - 86 (a mere 1 behind the hitout to adavantage king!)
*daylight*
5. Lycett - 63

If you go by hitout to advantage AVERAGE
1. Gundy - 13.8
=2. Gawn - 11.5
=2. Ryder - 11.5
4. Natanui - 10.9
5. Pittonet - 10.8
6. Phillips - 10.0

So.......case closed.

Reckon Ed would do the lockdown bit ok but using the footy deep down back by foot would worry me in a Liam Jones type of way....Dogs got Duryea for nothing we need that type of moneyball pickup to come our away with a small lockdown defender.
The Cottrell idea has merit though as he is a sensible player, not a bad kick and happy to sacrifice his game...

FWIW, Harry identified a few blokes who he'd like to have kicking to him when he is on the lead and he brought up Cottrell as being one of the better kicks.....which i thought was a little suprising, but there you go.

FWIW, Harry identified a few blokes who he'd like to have kicking to him when he is on the lead and he brought up Cottrell as being one of the better kicks.....which i thought was a little suprising, but there you go.

Its interesting how Cottrell was a no name uninspiring player at U18 level who had a shocker GF with only 4 possies I think but
is now a more advanced player than LOB, Dow etc and one most of us rate as more reliable at the basics and it appears by Harry's comments the players think same..

The fact that we were run down in the last quarter and a bit like so much Navy Blue roadkill should not obscure the fact that for almost 3 quarters we had the measure of what is indisputably superior opposition. It took their best player (and arguably best or 2nd best in the comp) giving the best individual performance of anyone this season to ignite them.

And with the likes of Martin, Fisher and a few others to come in.

Martin is a match winner is his own right.

Let's assume TDK & English/Martin negate each other.

Of course a fit/firing Charlie Curnow is the one that gets us well ahead of the Dogs.

He is in a different class.

Noting Cripps and Williams did less than SFA yesterday and a few others little more....

If SOJ and Fogarty had kicked those goals, perhaps a different result.

If SOJ and Fogarty had kicked those goals, perhaps a different result.

Thanks for reminding me....

If its close at the end, this poster by SOJ and the miss by Casboult, and the non-shot by SOJ is where we lost it.

.....and Fogartys one!

This was what i wrote in the in-game thread in Q2.

Ouch. :-*

And with the likes of Martin, Fisher and a few others to come in.

Martin is a match winner is his own right.

Let's assume TDK & English/Martin negate each other.

Of course a fit/firing Charlie Curnow is the one that gets us well ahead of the Dogs.

He is in a different class.

Noting Cripps and Williams did less than SFA yesterday and a few others little more....

If SOJ and Fogarty had kicked those goals, perhaps a different result.

I suppose when we lose it's natural to have "if only" moments.  But the same applies to the opposition. The dogs kicked 11 points and I'm sure their supporters have thoughts along the lines of "if only we had kicked fewer points we'd have been ahead at 3 quarter time."

With regard to Charlie, who knows what he'll be like when he returns.  Let's hope he is back to his best, but the reality is we don't know whether his knee will allow him the freedom to play his natural style, or whether it will withstand the pressure of match play.

Also, we don't know what his mental state will be after such a prolonged layoff.

I suppose when we lose it's natural to have "if only" moments.  But the same applies to the opposition. The dogs kicked 11 points and I'm sure their supporters have thoughts along the lines of "if only we had kicked fewer points we'd have been ahead at 3 quarter time."

With regard to Charlie, who knows what he'll be like when he returns.  Let's hope he is back to his best, but the reality is we don't know whether his knee will allow him the freedom to play his natural style, or whether it will withstand the pressure of match play.

Also, we don't know what his mental state will be after such a prolonged layoff.

We sometimes look at a game and say... now add these five or six injured players and you'd get a different  result.
What we sometimes overlook is who gives way for those players. For example...if Curnow, De Koning and Martin play...is there a spot for Jack Silvagni?
What's our forward line look like with Curnow in?

We are still lacking a small, lockdown defender.

Not many players i can see on our list who are really capable of it, but i've come up with 2.

1. Ed Curnow.
He is getting older, and perhaps we need him to sacrifice his game for the team, playing deep in defence might be an option worth looking into. He'd be perfect for Dusty types who go middle and forward at their leisure.

2. Matt Cottrell
I've said he is the most likely to take over from Curnow as a tagger (good tank, loves contact, never says die) but if we don't want to move Curnow back, perhaps we use Cottrell there instead.

Either way, its 1 less 'mid' which allows us to try Stocker, SPS or whoever else we are forcing to play a secondary role instead of their favoured midfield role.

Thank god somebody else sees cottrell as the guy to go back, not stocker and not sps.

What we sometimes overlook is who gives way for those players. For example...if Curnow, De Koning and Martin play...is there a spot for Jack Silvagni?
What's our forward line look like with Curnow in?

Sure is ... Jack ahead of Martin IMO

Sure is ... Jack ahead of Martin IMO

Different players.

If Martin and Silvagni are both fit, then Gibbons misses out.

Two more positives :

1. Docherty starting to regain touch and a little class and polish
2. Time in front :
76.57 Carlton
32.59 Bulldogs

Two more positives :

1. Docherty starting to regain touch and a little class and polish
2. Time in front :
76.57 Carlton
32.59 Bulldogs

We played ok early and Eddie/Harry hit the scoreboard but we never really were in full control and when they kicked those two goals late in the 3rd you just knew we were in trouble.
In front doesnt mean in control and its why good teams only have to play one decent quarter to win games and even when we play three decent quarters we never get far enough ahead to feel safe.
When Jack and Fogarty missed those easy goals it was like a gateway to misery was ajar....

To me one of the biggest positives was cuningham.

2 decent efforts back to back.....a first for him.

He's showing breakaway speed, sidesteps through packs, great kicking.......BIG TICK.

To me one of the biggest positives was cuningham.

2 decent efforts back to back.....a first for him.

He's showing breakaway speed, sidesteps through packs, great kicking.......BIG TICK.

Did some a couple of nice things but I wouldn't write home about it and give him a BIG TICK. He needs to do a crap load more than that and it wasn't a patch on his Ess game.

Did some a couple of nice things but I wouldn't write home about it and give him a BIG TICK. He needs to do a crap load more than that and it wasn't a patch on his Ess game.

What i saw was that he was finally up to the speed of an AFL game. Not only that, he was 'matrix-ing' - seeing and moving around things before they happened like it was in slow motion. A good sign.

What i saw was that he was finally up to the speed of an AFL game. Not only that, he was 'matrix-ing' - seeing and moving around things before they happened like it was in slow motion. A good sign.

I called him the most under rated player on our list for a reason.

He has been the forgotten man this year but I think Teague is wary that putting in too many of them when they weren't ready before hurt the team balance too much.

Ive been very interested watching what we are doing and it very much is all about taking opportunities and finding the right match ups.

My tip was Dogs by 26. While the result was slightly more favorable, it's the drop off that has me worried. We've all said it. 5, 6, 7, 8 unanswered goals kills any confidence we have of moving up the ladder. This, in my mind, is where leadership comes in. Or doesn't. If our leaders are injured, they shouldn't be on the ground.

I know we've had a tough injury run, but we also talk up our depth. I'm not convinced we have depth.

On a positive note, Cunningham is as smooth as they come. I'm pleased he's performing atm. Eddie had his tricks on show and looks like he's enjoying his footy. As is his understudy - Owies. Well done to H. He's finally having a great run of form and showing his potential.

Zac Williams was door stopped at PP yesterday, said he is still learning to play midfield. The most expensive trainer wheels in the comp, FMD!

My tip was Dogs by 26. While the result was slightly more favorable, it's the drop off that has me worried. We've all said it. 5, 6, 7, 8 unanswered goals kills any confidence we have of moving up the ladder. This, in my mind, is where leadership comes in. Or doesn't. If our leaders are injured, they shouldn't be on the ground.

I know we've had a tough injury run, but we also talk up our depth. I'm not convinced we have depth.

On a positive note, Cunningham is as smooth as they come. I'm pleased he's performing atm. Eddie had his tricks on show and looks like he's enjoying his footy. As is his understudy - Owies. Well done to H. He's finally having a great run of form and showing his potential.

We had the better of the 2nd best team for the best part of 3 quarters....without any real input from two supposed A graders or close to - Cripps and Williams. And a few others doing little too.

Had we kicked a few more of those very gettable goals earlier (SOJ and Fog), I reckon we would have won it. 40 odd up is far more imposing than 27.

Still, it's a loss in the books and we sit 3-5 with tough games ahead....

No excuses for what happened out of the centre in Q4 - that's on DT and his team as much as the players/leaders.

We had the better of the 2nd best team for the best part of 3 quarters....without any real input from two supposed A graders or close to - Cripps and Williams. And a few others doing little too.

Had we kicked a few more of those very gettable goals earlier (SOJ and Fog), I reckon we would have won it. 40 odd up is far more imposing than 27.

Still, it's a loss in the books and we sit 3-5 with tough games ahead....

No excuses for what happened out of the centre in Q4 - that's on DT and his team as much as the players/leaders.

Was thinking about this, is Teague better off coaching from the bench? Would it allow him to deliver messages quicker to the players in situations like Sunday?

Was thinking about this, is Teague better off coaching from the bench? Would it allow him to deliver messages quicker to the players in situations like Sunday?

Who knows GITC, but sitting in the box staring vacantly through the glass doesn't push my buttons.

Zac Williams was door stopped at PP yesterday, said he is still learning to play midfield. The most expensive trainer wheels in the comp, FMD!

Saw that and I think he meant "midfield at Carlton ", but nevertheless not the best choice of words.

I hope our boys spend as much time rewatching our first Q against the dogs as they will the last.
The dogs were swarming all over us in the first, we weathered it then we countered.
When they realise that they need to be 100% switched on for 4/4 Q then we’ll play like a premiership team, until then they need to keep building belief.

Another thing that struck me was how physically developed the doggies are, all extremely powerful, a mature hardened team.

Saw that and I think he meant "midfield at Carlton ", but nevertheless not the best choice of words.

he simply needs to be dropped.

9 touches is pathetic.

Either he's not fit, therefore a liability in the 1s, or he's apathetic right now.....

Either way, dropped.

Teague needs to send a message.

The Cripps phone conversation mentioned earlier, was interesting / it went on for a long time and he seemed to be irritated by what was being said. Any thoughts?

Who knows GITC, but sitting in the box staring vacantly through the glass doesn't push my buttons.

The entire group (players and coaches) need to do something different that's for sure. I have never seen DT sit on the bench, perhaps its not his thing, perhaps he doesn't trust the other coaches and wants to hear everything they say and do. All I know is that in his first 28 games, his team conceded 30 point swing in 18 of them, I think with Sundays game, its is now 19 from 36 games. This is the biggest think costing us wins and I dont care who the opposition is. They must rectify this.
Here is an article from March this year about the topic, what have they done about it?

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-news-2021-carlton-conceding-five-goal-swings-records-david-teague-coaching-stats/news-story/2fcc11cd81dc6f8d8f807607cc7b9e34

I hope our boys spend as much time rewatching our first Q against the dogs as they will the last.
The dogs were swarming all over us in the first, we weathered it then we countered.
When they realise that they need to be 100% switched on for 4/4 Q then we’ll play like a premiership team, until then they need to keep building belief.

Another thing that struck me was how physically developed the doggies are, all extremely powerful, a mature hardened team.

Funny you say that, I thought the same thing at the Brisbane game. They warmed up right in front of us at the start and after half time and I commented to the Mrs how thick in quad and butt area they looked compared to our blokes. Dunno if it was the white shorts but they looked like bulls. As you say though, 4 qtrs is the key. A win on Sunday could have catapulted our season, instead...

Funny you say that, I thought the same thing at the Brisbane game. They warmed up right in front of us at the start and after half time and I commented to the Mrs how thick in quad and butt area they looked compared to our blokes. Dunno if it was the white shorts but they looked like bulls. As you say though, 4 qtrs is the key. A win on Sunday could have catapulted our season, instead...

We have a few big guys in key positions but a lot of our mid-fielders and flankers are lightly framed.
It's the type of player we recruited, and many have a body type that won't bulk up.

Is the emphasis in our training more about speed and endurance, rather than strength and power.
Sure there is obviously a balance there, but the physicality some sides bring against us seems to be a factor in many of those runs and defeats.

We were pretty much 'monstered' in that last quarter on the weekend.

We have a few big guys in key positions but a lot of our mid-fielders and flankers are lightly framed.
It's the type of player we recruited, and many have a body type that won't bulk up.

Is the emphasis in our training more about speed and endurance, rather than strength and power.
Sure there is obviously a balance there, but the physicality some sides bring against us seems to be a factor in many of those runs and defeats.

We were pretty much 'monstered' in that last quarter on the weekend.

Agree, we lack big bodied strong players across the list apart from our taller types.
Everyone has said we played well for three quarters but for all that were only in front by a couple of goals at 3/4 time.
Its the classic struggling team vs better team scenario you see often and in in our glory days we were the ones who ran away with those games and over powered teams.
We looked schooboyish, lacking in fitness in the last quarter and our leadership isn't good enough.
The Bont goal where no one stood the mark was a sign we had switched off, given up and were waiting for the other bloke to do the work.

"dropped off "
"given up"
"stopped"
"waiting for the other bloke"
"switched off"
"sleeping"

This happens for a quarter of footy far too often. Develop the skill to remain motivated and focused for 4q and we'll be "where we want to be"

I expect several mental and physical factors are contributing. Those charged with the task of winning have work ahead. Hopefully they're on to it 🤞

The WBs had so many unattended players in the last quarter and a half, it was staggering.

We were insipid and couldn't even do the basics.  The defence were more than OK but wtf is that worth when the WB drive forward had more bloody avenues than a Melways.

That is inexcusable coaching and an indictment in recruiting standards. 

Was thinking about this, is Teague better off coaching from the bench? Would it allow him to deliver messages quicker to the players in situations like Sunday?

Beveridge was on the bench and very animated during the game. Thought this was very unusual at the time. Is he normally down on the bench coaching from there?

Though it was a bit of a panic move to come down to the bench.

From Jay Clark in the HS, a breakdown of what happened and when:

How did the disaster play out? Jay Clark takes an in-depth look at each goal and what went wrong for the Blues.

3 MIN 15 SEC REMAINING Q3

Josh Bruce goal

Car 82 WB 61

A Liam Stocker turnover in the middle of the ground was costly as Caleb Daniel found Lachie Hunter all alone with a surgical kick to the forward flank. Hunter, who played on with a broken hand, kicked long to Josh Bruce who outmarked Lachie Plowman 15m from goal.

1 MIN 30 SEC REM Q3

Aaron Naughton goal

Car 82 WB 68

What an effort from the Dogs’ star spearhead. Naughton produced a desperate chase on Adam Saad to force the Blues’ speedster into a kicking error and then took a big pack mark at the top of the goal square from the kick back inside 50m from Easton Wood. It was a strong grab from Naughton who plucked the ball either side of Jacob Weitering and Liam Jones in the marking contest.

15 MIN 20 SEC REM Q4

Lachie Hunter goal

Car 83 WB 74

The Blues were pinned down in their back half when Adam Saad gave away two free kicks. Saad first pushed Lachie McNeil in the back and then caught Lachie Hunter high as the Dogs’ ballwinner swivelled and leant in with his head to draw the high contact 35m from goal. Nice set shot from Hunter to slot his second major.

13 MIN 40 SEC REM Q4

Marcus Bontempelli goal

Car 83 WB 80

The Dogs built this one up from half back where Bailey Dale hit Caleb Daniel with a 50m bullet to the wing. Zaine Cordy and Mitch Hannan linked up on the wing before skipper Marcus Bontempelli took another contested mark at the top of the goal square in front of Liam Jones. Josh Bruce bodied Liam Stocker out of the way so Stocker couldn’t spoil from the side and there was no other aerial support for Jones. Also no Carlton player stood the mark for the Bontempelli set shot from point blank range.

7 MIN 40 SEC REM Q4

Aaron Naughton goal

Car 84 WB 88

A loopy kick from Michael Gibbons on the wing was quickly repelled as Marcus Bontempelli off two steps produced a dazzling pass to Jason Johannisen tight on the boundary line. Johannisen then kicked to the advantage of Naughton who was too strong for Matthew Parks over the back in a one-on-one marking contest. The 35m set shot continued the Dogs’ hot run.

6 MIN 50 SEC REM Q4

Anthony Scott goal

Car 84 WB 94

Adam Treloar fought hard inside the centre square to continue the annihilation out of the middle. Jack Macrae showed great vision to find Caleb Daniel with another brilliant Bulldogs’ handpass to set up Taylor Duryea 10m in front of Liam Stocker on the forward flank. Lachie McNeil roved the long kick in off the back of the pack and unselfishly handballed to Anthony Scott who goaled from close in on the run. The Carlton back line was under siege.

5 MIN 50 SEC REM Q4

Josh Bruce goal

Car 84 WB 100

Marc Pittonet grabbed it out of the ruck and kicked long but Caleb Daniel continued his excellent second half with a one-handed intercept mark. Patrick Lipinski, Bailey Smith and Anthony Scott then burned off their Carlton opponents spreading hard to the edges of the Marvel Stadium turf to bring the ball forward. Josh Bruce had no opponent in the forward pocket and finished the play with a curling left foot snap.

1 MIN 55 SEC REM Q4

Patrick Lipinski goal

Car 85 WB 106

The Dogs went the full length of the ground for their eighth-straight goal. Josh Bruce took the crucial contested mark on the wing, making Liam Jones pay for going the mark instead of a spoil from behind. Ruckman Jordon Sweet won a contested ball at ground level to release Marcus Bontempelli who delivered another gem of a pass on the left foot to hit Patrick Lipinski in space deep in attack.

"The Blues were pinned down in their back half when Adam Saad gave away two free kicks. Saad first pushed Lachie McNeil in the back and then caught Lachie Hunter high as the Dogs’ ballwinner swivelled and leant in with his head to draw the high contact 35m from goal. Nice set shot from Hunter to slot his second major."

niether of them were free kicks!!!  dogs got a lot of iffy frees early, which we weathered.  what we couldnt weather, was the "monstering" (as someone on here put it) at stoppages.  some of it was sheer brilliance by Bont, Mccrae and Treloar, but some of it was down to our blokes being tackled before they had the footy, and blocked off the footy etc.

in the Sun, the article next to this one is Bevvo complaining about Bont's deliberate out of bounds (which was a terrible call) - the article also mentions the Dogs have had the least frees against this year.   they certainly seemed to get away with a bit against us.  as a few on here have pointed out - we never complain about this stuff in the media.  Bevvo does, and they get away with a bit more on field... coincidence?

Zac Williams was door stopped at PP yesterday, said he is still learning to play midfield. The most expensive trainer wheels in the comp, FMD!

What do you expect
113 games over 8 years at another club on a HBF
He spent 77% of his 11 games in defence in 2020
We pay him $4.8 million over 6 years to be a quick outside mid because we were a slow team in 2020
and because he played one good midfield game in a preliminary in the wet
A nominated it to be a screwing disaster
So far I am right
We are a dumb club and that’s why we have not played in a preliminary for 20 years
Finished bottom 6  thirteen times over 20 years in a period of growing equalization.

Now onto another matter
Williams is clearly injured
I live in Busselton in WA
I would be happy to part with some money to be a member even though I probably could go to only one game when The Blues play in Perth.
I won’t when the club won’t tell its supporters what is wrong with a guy who they have paid so much money for
So screw the club

Considering how many of our top players played crap/injured is good coaching that had us 27 points up?

To me one of the biggest positives was cuningham.

2 decent efforts back to back.....a first for him.

He's showing breakaway speed, sidesteps through packs, great kicking.......BIG TICK.

And 12 possessions
Your easily pleased arnt you
The guy just isn’t competitive enough
He isn’t called cameo cunners for nothing

And 12 possessions
Your easily pleased arnt you
The guy just isn’t competitive enough
He isn’t called cameo cunners for nothing

You are never pleased.

It wasn't the number of touches he got is what he did that got me excited.
He showed more in that game than LOB has shown his whole career.

Considering how many of our top players played crap/injured is good coaching that had us 27 points up?

 
Genius for 2.5 Qtrs, surrendering 27pts so crap there after, apparently only the crap teams do that! :o

@madbluboy‍ You won't win friends and influence people by highlighting such contradictions around here.

For example how the Bulldogs super team and coaching panel surrendered a 26pt lead the week before! 

You are never pleased.

It wasn't the number of touches he got is what he did that got me excited.
He showed more in that game than LOB has shown his whole career.

Showing more then O’Brien wouldn’t be hard
Is 12 possessions good enough for a mid
I’ve always said he has great skills
He simply doesn’t want it enough judging by the lack of output

Comparing Cunningham to LOB is a silly debate lacking in context, like fans trying to compare Zac Williams 2021 front loaded wage with the long term worth of BigH.

Comparing Cunningham to LOB is a silly debate lacking in context, like fans trying to compare Zac Williams 2021 front loaded wage with the long term worth of BigH.

A bit like comparing disposals in isolation to gauge a players contribution to the team.

Fwiw....cunners had....
2 goal assists.....equal most with Ed
4 tackles....most was 5
3 i50s.......most was 4
9 score involvements....=2nd
83.3% DE......4th overall behind Betts, parks, docherty....highest mid!
19 pressure acts.....2nd to Walsh


So to me that's shows me a player who is working hard back and forward, using the ball well and setting up goals.

So yeah, good enough for me considering what a lot of his team-mates did (or didn't do)

A bit like comparing disposals in isolation to gauge a players contribution to the team.

 Or ruck stats! ;)

Fwiw....cunners had....
2 goal assists.....equal most with Ed
4 tackles....most was 5
3 i50s.......most was 4
9 score involvements....=2nd
83.3% DE......4th overall behind Betts, parks, docherty....highest mid!
19 pressure acts.....2nd to Walsh


So to me that's shows me a player who is working hard back and forward, using the ball well and setting up goals.

So yeah, good enough for me considering what a lot of his team-mates did (or didn't do)

I'm wrapped to see the improvement in Cuningham... especially as I believe I was one of his chief critics. The time spent by Luke Power with Cuningham, especially helping his defensive game and concentrating for 120 minutes has been worth its weight in gold - thus far. I hope he continues with his improvement as he really could be a very dangerous ingredient in our mid/forward combo.

I'm wrapped to see the improvement in Cuningham... especially as I believe I was one of his chief critics. The time spent by Luke Power with Cuningham, especially helping his defensive game and concentrating for 120 minutes has been worth its weight in gold - thus far. I hope he continues with his improvement as he really could be a very dangerous ingredient in our mid/forward combo.

Yes, 4 tackles, and not worthless half-hearted attempts, he actually stopped the opponents moment!

Or ruck stats! ;)

Its all about context.

Its all about context.

 Whether you post it or somebody else! ;D

Whether you post it or somebody else! ;D

You know the debate. We were 'beaten in the ruck' thats why we lost the stoppages. It was Pittonets fault.

Except....when it was the total opposite. Ruck stats clearly show that.
FWIW, Pittonet beat him around the ground too, but that wasn't the argument.

You can talk til you’re blue in the face about how well we did and how the Dogs lost their bundle the week before to lose their lead and on and on.

The fact is we had complete control of the game and we blew it - we could not, again, temper their bombardment, not even once. We did not give one whimper, just let them go and stood and watched, twice we didn’t stand on the mark - I’ve never played or coaches AFL but I know that is a basic thing that should be done.  Not sure what the problem is but leadership seems to be number 1. Fitness. Smarts.

"The Blues were pinned down in their back half when Adam Saad gave away two free kicks. Saad first pushed Lachie McNeil in the back and then caught Lachie Hunter high as the Dogs’ ballwinner swivelled and leant in with his head to draw the high contact 35m from goal. Nice set shot from Hunter to slot his second major."

niether of them were free kicks!!!  dogs got a lot of iffy frees early, which we weathered.  what we couldnt weather, was the "monstering" (as someone on here put it) at stoppages.  some of it was sheer brilliance by Bont, Mccrae and Treloar, but some of it was down to our blokes being tackled before they had the footy, and blocked off the footy etc.

in the Sun, the article next to this one is Bevvo complaining about Bont's deliberate out of bounds (which was a terrible call) - the article also mentions the Dogs have had the least frees against this year.   they certainly seemed to get away with a bit against us.  as a few on here have pointed out - we never complain about this stuff in the media.  Bevvo does, and they get away with a bit more on field... coincidence?

I thought the frees were there and we would have wanted them paid if it was our players but that wasnt why  we lost...those two goals wouldnt have been a factor if Jack and Fogarty had kicked those easy ones and the Bont wasnt allowed that easy mark in the goalsquare. Saad had a bit of a shocker and wasnt his usual switched on self, he had been manned up all day to stop his run and I would have moved him onto a wing.

twice we didn’t stand on the mark - I’ve never played or coaches AFL but I know that is a basic thing that should be done.

I can remember one time which was highlighted by the commentary team.....and i think that was smart.

It was basically 10m out, nobody stood the mark.
As a result the player starts walking in from 20m out and walks right up to the 10m mark (which once he passes is called play on!) and thats what he did, walked passed it and the umpire called play on.
Watching all this happening was Eddie Betts, right as the play on call occurred he was in full sprint mode to get to the kicker.
Now it didn't work, he got the kick away and the goal, but it was close. For something that was a gimme goal, i found it an interesting tactic.....and i think it was just that, a tactic, rather than someone forgetting.

On other occassions i've noticed players fall back from the mark (not standing on the mark) and that gives them the freedom to move sideways (as long as they are '5m' behind the mark.) and actually puts more pressure on the kicker as a result.
Again, this is a tactic and something we've done at least a handful of times.

So maybe don't be so quick to point the finger. ;)

You can talk til you’re blue in the face about how well we did and how the Dogs lost their bundle the week before to lose their lead and on and on.

The fact is we had complete control of the game and we blew it - we could not, again, temper their bombardment, not even once. We did not give one whimper, just let them go and stood and watched, twice we didn’t stand on the mark - I’ve never played or coaches AFL but I know that is a basic thing that should be done.  Not sure what the problem is but leadership seems to be number 1. Fitness. Smarts.

I thought Pitto, Cuningham and Ed were just about our only mids!

I thought Pitto, Cuningham and Ed were just about our only mids!

Ed has been consistent all season and Cuningham has played a couple of decent games in a row, jury still out on him but he
has some weapons in terms of pace and being able to kick goals and lets hope he can stay fit and interested.
I'm going to agree with Krud on Pittonet and I dont get the negative waves about his game, I thought he won the ruck, was handy
in the clearances getting his frame in the play and had a good game as you alluded too.
He isnt going to be the next Dean Cox but given he was a cheap moneyball solution from the Box Hill Hawks in the main he has earned his money unlike a few more highly paid imports who have been in the news on this forum lately.

I can remember one time which was highlighted by the commentary team.....and i think that was smart.

It was basically 10m out, nobody stood the mark.
As a result the player starts walking in from 20m out and walks right up to the 10m mark (which once he passes is called play on!) and thats what he did, walked passed it and the umpire called play on.
Watching all this happening was Eddie Betts, right as the play on call occurred he was in full sprint mode to get to the kicker.
Now it didn't work, he got the kick away and the goal, but it was close. For something that was a gimme goal, i found it an interesting tactic.....and i think it was just that, a tactic, rather than someone forgetting.

On other occassions i've noticed players fall back from the mark (not standing on the mark) and that gives them the freedom to move sideways (as long as they are '5m' behind the mark.) and actually puts more pressure on the kicker as a result.
Again, this is a tactic and something we've done at least a handful of times.

So maybe don't be so quick to point the finger. ;)

Got me thinking...
With the 'stand still' rule... Is there an advantage to not standing the mark in a forward defensive situation...when the opposition has the ball deep in your attacking zone?
You wouldn't do it all the time.
You would think you're leaving yourself wide open and that may very well be the case (almost certainly)  but...

It gives the player with the ball a few things to think about.
Does he play through the mark?
Where is the mark?
When does he bounce?
You have an extra player ahead of the ball with freedom of movement.

Ed has been consistent all season and Cuningham has played a couple of decent games in a row, jury still out on him but he
has some weapons in terms of pace and being able to kick goals and lets hope he can stay fit and interested.
I'm going to agree with Krud on Pittonet and I dont get the negative waves about his game likewise, I thought he won the ruck, was handy
in the clearances getting his frame in the play and had a good game as you alluded too.
He isnt going to be the next Dean Cox but given he was a cheap moneyball solution from the Box Hill Hawks in the main he has earned his money unlike a few more highly paid imports who have been in the news on this forum lately.

Since you guys are so good at using stats to back up your argument
Here is mine
He basically played around the ground on ball with some stints up forward
As we know he is the best kick in the team
9 score involvements when you get only 12 possessions is amazing
Here is the bit you blokes conveniently don’t bring up
In the last quarter Cuningham like most in the team played 100% in defence
2 possessions
Not one tackle
When the pressure was on like always with him he went missing
For a guy in his 6 th year it ain’t good enough

Since you guys are so good at using stats to back up your argument
Here is mine
He basically played around the ground on ball with some stints up forward
As we know he is the best kick in the team
9 score involvements when you get only 12 possessions is amazing
Here is the bit you blokes conveniently don’t bring up
In the last quarter Cuningham like most in the team played 100% in defence
2 possessions
Not one tackle
When the pressure was on like always with him he went missing
For a guy in his 6 th year it ain’t good enough

You know who else got 2 possessions in the last quarter.....Captain Cripps.
For a guy who is captain, that is CLEARLY not good enough.

The whole team was crape in the last, using that to justify your argument (if it is indeed based on stats or just your opinion) doesn't make him look bad, it makes him look like the rest of the team.

Got me thinking...
With the 'stand still' rule... Is there an advantage to not standing the mark in a forward defensive situation...when the opposition has the ball deep in your attacking zone?
You wouldn't do it all the time.
You would think you're leaving yourself wide open and that may very well be the case (almost certainly)  but...

It gives the player with the ball a few things to think about.
Does he play through the mark?
Where is the mark?
When does he bounce?
You have an extra player ahead of the ball with freedom of movement.

It has been done, re not standing the mark, but standing 5m back from it. It is mainly utilised when the player has the ball close to the boundary. They stand back 5m and at the 45. Essentially chopping off the inboard 45 kick, forcing them to go long down the line, or switch it across goal.

Same thing happens when a player is having a shot from about 50-55....again, when on an angle. It stops the player looping around to get some extra distance and cuts off the 45 inside.

There are actually a lot of tactics that have been trialled in certain circumstances that the average joe either doesn't realise or misinterprets what is actually happening.

Ed has been consistent all season and Cuningham has played a couple of decent games in a row, jury still out on him but he
has some weapons in terms of pace and being able to kick goals and lets hope he can stay fit and interested.
I'm going to agree with Krud on Pittonet and I dont get the negative waves about his game, I thought he won the ruck, was handy
in the clearances getting his frame in the play and had a good game as you alluded too.
He isnt going to be the next Dean Cox but given he was a cheap moneyball solution from the Box Hill Hawks in the main he has earned his money unlike a few more highly paid imports who have been in the news on this forum lately.

You blokes are easily please with Cunners calling his game decent.

You know the debate. We were 'beaten in the ruck' thats why we lost the stoppages. It was Pittonets fault.

Except....when it was the total opposite. Ruck stats clearly show that.
FWIW, Pittonet beat him around the ground too, but that wasn't the argument.

Funny, I thought their kid jumped him early and had him rattled and beat him, when the clearances were pretty even.  Later, I thought Pitto got it together and about broke even - and that’s when we got creamed in the clearances!

I can remember one time which was highlighted by the commentary team.....and i think that was smart.

It was basically 10m out, nobody stood the mark.
As a result the player starts walking in from 20m out and walks right up to the 10m mark (which once he passes is called play on!) and thats what he did, walked passed it and the umpire called play on.
Watching all this happening was Eddie Betts, right as the play on call occurred he was in full sprint mode to get to the kicker.
Now it didn't work, he got the kick away and the goal, but it was close. For something that was a gimme goal, i found it an interesting tactic.....and i think it was just that, a tactic, rather than someone forgetting.

On other occassions i've noticed players fall back from the mark (not standing on the mark) and that gives them the freedom to move sideways (as long as they are '5m' behind the mark.) and actually puts more pressure on the kicker as a result.
Again, this is a tactic and something we've done at least a handful of times.

So maybe don't be so quick to point the finger. ;)

Yeah, I didn’t get the comm box going nuts over standing the mark.  He was 10m out, standing he mar wasn’t going to make much difference.   I didn’t pick up what you mentioned about Eddie - but it makes sense - may as well roll the dice and see if you can do something different with an almost certain goal

Funny, I thought their kid jumped him early and had him rattled and beat him, when the clearances were pretty even.  Later, I thought Pitto got it together and about broke even - and that’s when we got creamed in the clearances!

Seems about right to me.

Coming up against a new kid, you have to learn on the job. You don't really know what he is going to do because you haven't played against him yet. Limited video to study. Wing it.

Once you get some idea on how he plays, then you work out how to beat him....and beat him he did. Unfortunately the other 3 blokes around him went MIA all at the same time. Cripps and Williams having their worst games for the year, if not their career.

You blokes are easily please with Cunners calling his game decent.

How many players played better?

You blokes are easily please with Cuners calling his game decent.

Keeping standards high is a daily challenge.  ;D

I thought he did ok. He is starting to show more than just glimpses IMO, and what he offers, we sorely lack. He has played 3,8,5,9,12 and 3 games over 6 seasons, so his senior experience is not only limited, it's also been interrupted and intermittent. He is silk when he's up and about, and beautiful to watch. He could be one of those players coaches always talk about that don't have many possessions, but every one of those possessions really counts. Of course, up till now, the body of work is thin, but I hope he smashes it.

How many players played better?

Oh so its relative to others? Is that how we rate players these days? Ill just STFU then and give it away. Make him captain then.

Oh so its relative to others? Is that how we rate players these days? Ill just STFU then and give it away. Make him captain then.

Well it is, kinda. Players have to be dropped and if there were no players better than him, then its fair to say his performance was not good enough.
If however, his performance was better than the captain, the (almost) million dollar man and quite a few others, then i think it shows something that 'the cameo king' is elevating his levels despite those around him lowering theirs.

Or....if you just want to bag players because ti makes you feel good, be my guest. May i recommend Pittonet? Or perhaps Newnes? They seem to be flavour of the month despite performing to a higher level than they are given credit for.

You know who else got 2 possessions in the last quarter.....Captain Cripps.
For a guy who is captain, that is CLEARLY not good enough.

The whole team was crape in the last, using that to justify your argument (if it is indeed based on stats or just your opinion) doesn't make him look bad, it makes him look like the rest of the team.

Why not
He played crap and went missing when it counted
How many credits does Cripps have in the bank

You blokes are easily please with Cunners calling his game decent.

I'm not sold on DC, far from it, but in terms of what he can do well he is a superior player to many we have on the list. His skills are good, it's all about effort over 4 quarters where he let's himself down more often than not. He isn't physical or a tackling machine but is that outside runner, distributor that every team needs.
This year is make or break for him and he needs to establish himself or he will be traded/delisted. I'm prepared to have an open mind on him for now and see some hope after his last couple of games..

I found the umpiring bewildering at times.
It seemed like we were playing to one interpretation and the doggies to another…

We got murdered in the middle

23-7 Centre Clearances

Libba 9, Bont 5,
Pittonet 4, Cripps 2, Walsh 1.

Our backline held up well considering the amount of ball coming in.

We got murdered in the middle

23-7 Centre Clearances

Libba 9, Bont 5,
Pittonet 4, Cripps 2, Walsh 1.

Our backline held up well considering the amount of ball coming in.

Astounding!

We got murdered in the middle

23-7 Centre Clearances

Libba 9, Bont 5,
Pittonet 4, Cripps 2, Walsh 1.

Our backline held up well considering the amount of ball coming in.

Wait, you're telling me Pittonet had more clearances than Batman and Robin combined! I keep hearing he was the problem though....
 O:-)

Rhylee West anyone?.....his father ex Dog champ Scott paid out on Luke Beveridge in a social media rant for dropping his son
after only one game back and 5x top games in the twos so I'd say thats about him done at the Dogs at seasons end.

I'm not sold on DC, far from it, but in terms of what he can do well he is a superior player to many we have on the list. His skills are good, it's all about effort over 4 quarters where he let's himself down more often than not. He isn't physical or a tackling machine but is that outside runner, distributor that every team needs.
This year is make or break for him and he needs to establish himself or he will be traded/delisted. I'm prepared to have an open mind on him for now and see some hope after his last couple of games..

He has the skills, just doesn't do it often enough for long enough. Change that and he can be superb player for us. Thats not was I was debating however.

Wait, you're telling me Pittonet had more clearances than Batman and Robin combined! I keep hearing he was the problem though....
 O:-)

The problem is that Pittonet's clearances are kicks off the ground or blind kicks/handpasses in the general direction of our forward line.  His ruckwork is poor and generally ends up with an opposition clearance.  It's really worth watching how De Koning in the VFL (and even Casboult) is able to direct his hitouts so that a midfielder gets a decent opportunity to drive the ball forward.  I don't know how "hitouts to advantage" is defined but most of Pittonet's taps don't result in us getting a clearance.

The other problem with Pittonet is that he is not taking marks around the ground and, when he "helps out" in defence, it often ends up with him blocking Jones or Weitering.  He certainly tries hard, but there's a reason why he only played seven games in four seasons with the Hawks.

He has the skills, just doesn't do it often enough for long enough. Change that and he can be superb player for us. Thats not was I was debating however.

DC had 12 possies @83% DE...with 9 scoring Involvements, 4 tackles... Fogarty had 13 possies@53% DE, 7 scoring involvements with one tackle...now we all like what Fogarty has done since coming to the club and the point I was trying to make is that while DC didnt have a great game it wasnt too bad given he rarely backs up a good game with another the following week and he was effective with what he did do, not enough for sure but he wasnt our worst either.

DC had 12 possies @83% DE...with 9 scoring Involvements, 4 tackles... Fogarty had 13 possies@53% DE, 7 scoring involvements with one tackle...now we all like what Fogarty has done since coming to the club and the point I was trying to make is that while DC didnt have a great game it wasnt too bad given he rarely backs up a good game with another the following week and he was effective with what he did do, not enough for sure but he wasnt our worst either.

I was trying to make the same point, that it wasnt a GREAT game.

The problem with Cunningham (and I think most folks can see it) is that he does these things in games that make you think...'wow, that was classy.'
He's a 'cut above'
But then he goes for long periods of the game without any impact.

Just keep playing him for the time being.
His upside is greater than most of those other fringe players.
Hopefully those 'wow' moments will become more frequent.

I was trying to make the same point, that it wasnt a GREAT game.

I thought he was decent when he had the ball is probably what I was trying to say but happy to agree with you it wasn't a great game hence he didn't get votes from me.

I thought he was decent when he had the ball is probably what I was trying to say but happy to agree with you it wasn't a great game hence he didn't get votes from me.

Agree, he did some nice things and if he was playing in the FP you say it was a good game, but he was up the field so he needs to get far more involved before he gets a tick. But I'd say he is moving in the right direction, now if he can be consistent we should see growth.

The problem with Cunningham (and I think most folks can see it) is that he does these things in games that make you think...'wow, that was classy.'
He's a 'cut above'
But then he goes for long periods of the game without any impact.

Just keep playing him for the time being.
His upside is greater than most of those other fringe players.
Hopefully those 'wow' moments will become more frequent.

Classy is the correct word, its the consistency he lacks.

You have to keep playing Cunningham, he's not going to get better in the VFL. If we decide he's not good enough at the end of the year get rid of him.

The problem is that Pittonet's clearances are kicks off the ground or blind kicks/handpasses in the general direction of our forward line.  His ruckwork is poor and generally ends up with an opposition clearance.  It's really worth watching how De Koning in the VFL (and even Casboult) is able to direct his hitouts so that a midfielder gets a decent opportunity to drive the ball forward.  I don't know how "hitouts to advantage" is defined but most of Pittonet's taps don't result in us getting a clearance.

The other problem with Pittonet is that he is not taking marks around the ground and, when he "helps out" in defence, it often ends up with him blocking Jones or Weitering.  He certainly tries hard, but there's a reason why he only played seven games in four seasons with the Hawks.

I think he goes okay in the ruck but doesn't do much else.

Just on Williams, I keep hearing about him being in the midfield but I was at the ground and every time I saw him he was starting in the forward line.

Obvious....retired off the backline General too soon

Should have kept Simmo on the books......durable and would have gone around again willingly again for 150-200k
instead pay that muppett Williams 800k p/year for 5 years?

Plain as the nose on your face...I went to the praccy match v Saints at Etihad where they torched us for 7 goals first qtr...probably 4/5 over the back and thought we are going to leak goals all year..how many games in his glittering career has he saved us us last man on the line or filled the hole in front of big forwards fearlessly. With Newman meant to be the replacement in that role and out for first 8 games surely they could have found a spot for him.

Just my thoughts

How can it be that when we hit the lead against a top team, after so many years of struggling, that our team is full of dread instead of excitement.

How can it be that they are not energised and invigorated by the situation of leading?

Who did this to us, and / or who is doing it to us?

I re-watched the game and you can see the change in some of our players, even before the Dogs had scored their second goal in the comeback run on. Our players looked to have dropped their heads, like they knew their fate and that their role wasn't to win. They looked nervous, suppressed, defeated even!

Somebody or something at our club is dropping the ball, we have a bad influence somewhere in the system!

It's corny but true!
(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.279910800.9706/flat,750x1000,075,f.u2.jpg)

LP - while there is a huge mental aspect, I think there is a fitness aspect as well.  Fitness because we are a side that needs its best 22 playing.  We currently spend a huge amount of energy carrying 4-5 players more than the top sides (up to 15, reading this site after a loss!) - it is 17/18 against 22 when it comes to the top sides.

I think McKay had a shot to get us 32 points up, late in the third, but missed, they then scored two goals and started the run on.  We bang on about taking the easy chances - we had heaps - that has also got to be deflating.

I think he goes okay in the ruck but doesn't do much else.

Can a team afford to rely on a ruckman who doesn’t have an impact around the ground?

I’d be happier if Pittonet was able to nullify the impact of opposition rucks but I’m not seeing that.

Can a team afford to rely on a ruckman who doesn’t have an impact around the ground?

I’d be happier if Pittonet was able to nullify the impact of opposition rucks but I’m not seeing that.

Stat sheet says opposite to that.

How can it be that when we hit the lead against a top team, after so many years of struggling, that our team is full of dread instead of excitement.

How can it be that they are not energised and invigorated by the situation of leading?

Who did this to us, and / or who is doing it to us?

I re-watched the game and you can see the change in some of our players, even before the Dogs had scored their second goal in the comeback run on. Our players looked to have dropped their heads, like they knew their fate and that their role wasn't to win. They looked nervous, suppressed, defeated even!

Somebody or something at our club is dropping the ball, we have a bad influence somewhere in the system!

It's corny but true!
(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.279910800.9706/flat,750x1000,075,f.u2.jpg)

This is a long standing problem with our footy club.

We tanked for draft picks years and years ago, and this was our reward.  Remember the Kreuzer cup?

The word culture gets thrown around a lot but the only way you can make a cultural difference is time doing the same thing over again until you build your brand.

Its what worried me about the Brendan Bolton approach with the green shoots.  We traded away any chance of winning, for draft picks, and wooden spoons, and a couple more number 1 draft picks.  Yes its delivered us the best talent in the land in Weitering and Walsh, but at what cost?  Are we seeing this play out now?

My only real reference point of another club that has done what we did, is the Melbourne footy club.  Goodwin arrived, and he has decided to drop the draft picks, theyve ditched the number 1 messiah, and gone with a bunch of unfashionable types, that know how to play footy.  Here we are looking at them this weekend, after having gone down the road of appointing an unfashionable type as captain (Jones) and they are now playing with his dedication as a unit.

Perhaps the fish has rotted from the head.  I only hope we havent repeated history.  Those who dont learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Teague appears to be trying to correct this.

Our footy club has another problem.  Teams build the resilience and reliability through consistency.  We have not had a consistent approach to anything for a very long time, and I suggest that this problem wont start to vanish until we start to have a consistent approach on a consistent basis.

we have the tools to build a solid team, I expect its the next layer that will deliver us any real difference in mentality.