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Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1470 –
Quote from: mateinone on
Do you have some sources?



I read this a while ago now, I will  find it and get back.

OK, these two references are not my original readings but pretty closely summarise them and prompted my post.

Lenin in fact had Jewish ancestry but did not openly identify as being Jewish. The Bolsheviks however had a disproportionally high Jewish representation and were not, IMO, primarily motivated by improving the lot of the people of Russia.

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/05/opinion/l-lenin-and-the-search-for-jewish-roots-747092.html

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_weber.html

Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1471 –
Some interesting discussions going on here, the only thing I would say is that language, ideology and labeling are human conditions. They are always flawed, the minute an individual commits to a specific cause they are doomed to prove themselves wrong.

This is the very thing scientists generally understand, at least those who are not defending a tenure!

Relative to Trump and other ideologs;

Quote from: Charles Darwin, 'The Descent of Man'
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.”

It's a most relevant quote, but not just about matters of science!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1472 –
Quote from: cookie2 on
I read this a while ago now, I will  find it and get back.

OK, these two references are not my original readings but pretty closely summarise them and prompted my post.

Lenin in fact had Jewish ancestry but did not openly identify as being Jewish. The Bolsheviks however had a disproportionally high Jewish representation and were not, IMO, primarily motivated by improving the lot of the people of Russia.

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/05/opinion/l-lenin-and-the-search-for-jewish-roots-747092.html

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_weber.html

The first point, that second link.. a quick look at the site and and the author's other stories and you can see he has an anti-semetic viewpoint and so that can just be discarded completely. A further look shows it is a Holocaust Denial site, which again goes back to my point that says no crackpots.


The other link just discusses Lenin's Jewish heritage, I already addressed that it wasn't a valid argument to say his was a Zionist agenda.

The Lenin Jewish history is known, but generally it is considered that he was unlikely even aware of it himself or that is had no relevance.
Tsarist Russia was an oppressive autocratic regime and a lot of people wanted change, you could not protest openly without recriminations and Lenin's brother in rebellion tried to assassinate Nicholas II's father, the then current Tsar. For his troubles, he was executed.

It is not at all hard to see why this is considered one of the key moments that drove Lenin towards revolution and socialism.
Remember that like most Autocratic countries at the time Russia Tsarist rule was absolute and any form of insurrection was put down swiftly. It isn't uncommon that there were a number of Jews amongst those rebelling as they filled a lot of university positions and honestly traditionally it is places such as universities (not in the classes) where intellectuals gather to talk about political change and upheaval.
It must again be remembered that you could be off to Siberia for years for organising a meeting against the rule of the Tsar. If you were to run a public protest it could be met with death...
I think there was every reason for All Russians to want to overthrow the Tsar

I don't see any evidence at all that suggests they were not mainly about improving the plight of Russians, then Stalin as a non Jew could never have climbed the ladder that he did. Remember he was primarily a Georgian thug, in charge of squads than rad raids on banks etc to fund the revolution. This man could never have been more than a pawn if the movement was run from afar by other Zionists.

I stick by the fact that I have never seen a scrap of evidence to suggest the motive to drive the Jewish cause, above breaking the oppression of the Tsarist rule.

Remember that this was a time of change, it was a time where the lower and lower middle classes were beginning to educate and questioning and existence beyond one that restricted them to basically a life of servitude. From the French revolution, through the European revolutions of the mid 19th century and onto the Russian and right up to the revolutions of the late 20th century. When groups start to question their oppression, it often triggers a resistance and this is what happened in Russia.
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1473 –
@MIO

I think we'll have to disagree about the Bolsheviks MIO. IMO you have, shall I say, a generous view of their activities.

Anyway here is a link to some relatively contemporary writings of Winston Churchill who, when I last looked, was not a holocaust denier.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/bookchapters/WSC/WSCwrote1920.html
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1474 –
I don't think it is so generous, I think intentions of most where well laid, but that the execution was abysmal.

To be clear, I rate Stalin as every bit as evil as Hitler, in every fashion.

I have a strong opinion on the subject as European history and in particular the history of Russia and Eastern Europe is something for about 8 years I used to study in my 'down time'. I was never a great watcher of tv or anything and so that it is what I done in my spare time. (Well after I quite playing chess)... my god I am a geek lol

Now like most people who spend so long reading about these topics, you start out thinking one thing, then swaying another and then eventually hardening into a stance. It doesn't make my opinion right and I don't profess at all to be an expert, but yes I do have a hardened opinion on the topic that it would take a fair bit to sway from.
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1475 –
@MIO

Mate, I was a real "red ragger" in my student days and the Russian Revolution held a great romantic allure for me - man the barricades, power to the workers etc etc.

Unfortunately, the more I learned about it the more a disillusionment crept in. Unfortunately I think most (I won't say all) great events of history tend to have a cynical motive or narrow national self-interests driving them - very few occur in the pursuit of altruism or the concern for the welfare of people. Very sad really.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1476 –
Quote from: cookie2 on
Unfortunately, the more I learned about it the more a disillusionment crept in. Unfortunately I think most (I won't say all) great events of history tend to have a cynical motive or narrow national self-interests driving them - very few occur in the pursuit of altruism or the concern for the welfare of people. Very sad really.

See this is where I disagree, I think that most movements ended up burning bright and fading out and a lot are left with some pretty poor legacies, but I think most major movements (such as the French or Russian revolutions, just because we are talking about them) came about because people needed them.

The leaders such as Lenin dedicated their entire life to achieving this outcome, they can be jailed, sent to Siberia, killed, exiled to live in relative poverty or anything, but it doesn't change their belief, it hardens it. Now the problem comes about once power comes, they believe in absolutely no bending at all, it must be 100% their way.. It is the same will that allowed them to have the belief through the years that thwarts them from seeing compromise and then this inevitably ends badly.

Take someone like Robespierre, he was nicknamed the incorruptible, he believed so strongly that the views he had were the views that the country needed. He believed that this was vindicated by finally seeing the end of the reign they had fought against, that they believe people must be sacrificed who threaten the existence of the environment they have fought their lives for and I think it has nothing to do with them going into these situations obsessed with gaining power for themselves for their own gain.

I do believe there is a fair element of narcissism though, as they need to believe completely in their view of the world as being the right, as being the view that others who don't believe just have not yet seen...

So yes, I think they make huge mistakes, but I don't believe in most cases the goal is power (though in some cases of course it is).
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1477 –
@MIO

You may well be right MIO. I am not a historian but instead have only become familiar with certain events of history due to specific interests, and mainly from 20th century onward so I'm not really in a position to comment on for instance The French Revolution. The events I've read up on, e.g the West's activities in the Middle East over the past 100 years, certainly have not been driven by anything other than the quest for power, influence and riches.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1479 –
Quote from: cookie2 on
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/suddenly-this-is-a-president-staring-down-the-barrel-of-impeachment-20170518-gw7kxq.html

Interesting observations from Waleed Aly. This whole Trump thing is bizarre alright. I'm still trying to figure out what the hell is going on.

If he ends up being impeached, I wonder whether the idea of "teaching the establishment a lesson" will backfire, and in fact give them an upper hand, since it could well grant them a "we told you so" moment.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1480 –
Quote from: PaulP on
If he ends up being impeached, I wonder whether the idea of "teaching the establishment a lesson" will backfire, and in fact give them an upper hand, since it could well grant them a "we told you so" moment.

I think you may well be right on the money with that P.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1481 –
I think it still works in a way Paul.
I don't think the establishment will be as complacent as they were, which in reality is what was required, because if someone comes out with a general similar thought process, but without the bluster they may still seem attractive to the masses and the establishment has to go some way towards appeasing the masses or face the same thing over.

Ie.. a competent Trump.. Which might be scarier.

@Cookie.. on the Middle East, I think you may be right, I know far far less about that region, but tend to agree that based on what I know the desire to make money drives most (at least external) interests.

Amazing how quick the world would basically 'forget' the entire Middle East and leave it to it's own devices like they do in many of the African countries if the Oil dried up or the reliance on it disappeared.
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1482 –
Quote from: DJC on
Trump is the establishment  ::)

As for what he's done that's had a negative effect on me, how about:
1. Bombing the Syrian Air Force.
2. Praising the North Korean dictator.
3. Sharing secret information with the Russians.
4. Weakening environmental protection.
5. Weakening heritage protection.
6. Demeaning women.
7. Making the world a more dangerous place.
8. Promoting racism and discrimination.
9. Jeopardising the economy.
10. Bastardising the English language.

Bombing the Syrian Air Force has had a negative effected on you?

Hahaha... I rest my case there.

Maybe you need to crawl back into your safe space so that Dictator Trump doesnt do anymore nasty things that might hurt your feelings!

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1483 –
Roger Ailes, disgraced former head of FoxNews and Trump campaign adviser, dead at 77.
 

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1484 –
Quote from: Koutz on
Bombing the Syrian Air Force has had a negative effected on you?

Hahaha... I rest my case there.

Maybe you need to crawl back into your safe space so that Dictator Trump doesnt do anymore nasty things that might hurt your feelings!

I think you missed the point of what DJC was pointing out. Have another look at his list... pretty damning stuff and all with on-going ramifications.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17