https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202204/1258719.shtml
The message is abundantly clear.
Fans of TV serial The Blacklist will recognise an unerringly family message to the early Season 9 episodes about why Taiwan is so critical.
Fans of TV serial The Blacklist will recognise an unerringly family message to the early Season 9 episodes about why Taiwan is so critical.
Oo yeah! Sweating on the remaining season 9 episodes... now that the 'band is back together'. So hard to find really engrossing Series' with intriguing, relevant, global and credible characters... well, believable exaggeration, let's say. Also loved Homeland and Sinners, though quite different.
Anyway, as for China and Taiwan... and the US... troubling times ahead.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202204/1258719.shtml
The message is abundantly clear.
They are an expansionist country and won't let Taiwan go, with Russia trying it's luck in Ukraine it's no surprise to me that the Chinese think it's an opportunity to push some boundaries.
Let's hope Xi has more brains than that war mongering journo...
Lots of electronics come out of Taiwan. This could cause a lot of mayhem for us here.
https://au.yahoo.com/news/china-wants-10-pacific-nations-084939983.html
China just continuing its push into the Pacific while Joe and Albo buddy up in Japan.
In an alternative universe, this problem would never have developed as the Trans-Pacific Partnership was essentially a geo-political play by the USA to create a politico-economic bloc capable of resisting China. It did so by giving Pacific nations good economic deals which would have strengthened the bond with the USA.
That brilliant strategist Trump didn't like it b/c the USA wasn't screwing the other countries so that it won bigly. Oh, and he didn't like it because of the global conspiracy (Soros and the Jews).
After ripping up the TPP, he then set about alienating any allies and insisting he'd only do deals which made the USA (or his cronies, at least) richer. And now we're complaining that Pacific Island nations are being lured by economic deals with China that the USA should have been able to trump easily.
https://au.yahoo.com/news/china-wants-10-pacific-nations-084939983.html
China just continuing its push into the Pacific while Joe and Albo buddy up in Japan.
Climate change is far more important EB ::)
No, we want to remain in control of the world at least until it becomes uninhabitable.
China playing games with one of their fighter jets putting one of our RAAF surveillance planes at risk by discharging debris after cutting our plane off and flying too close in front which could have brought our plane down.
They are clearly spoiling for an incident to trigger something more major and I'd be forgetting about kissing and making up with them like Albo and Penny Wong want to do and taking a more hardline approach
and tooling up our military more.
We are trying to buddy up to Indonesia with a trip planned by Albo and Penny to get them onside, but I wouldnt trust the Indonesians either even though they are no fans of the Chinese.
Get the feeling the USA have abandoned Taiwan and I'm uncomfortable with being able to trust them for full support and we need to look after ourselves more.
Some eight weeks ago, then Foreign Minister Payne was hosting a Liberal Party fundraiser while her assistant was in the Solomon Islands trying unsuccessfully to stop the pact with China.
Contrast that with new Foreign Minister Wong’s hands on approach to our South Pacific neighbours and the scuttling of China’s security pact.
In defence of Payne, it seems that she wanted to do more in the South Pacific but was blocked by her colleagues. That said, her authoritarian approach was more likely to put our neighbours offside.
On the big stick side of foreign affairs, the new Government is reportedly considering buying three additional air warfare destroyers and stop-gap submarines; a significant increase in our defensive and force projection capabilities.
They are clearly spoiling for an incident to trigger something more major and I'd be forgetting about kissing and making up with them like Albo and Penny Wong want to do and taking a more hardline approach and tooling up our military more.
They are aggressive but their greatest weakness, in my opinion, is a complete misunderstanding of western culture and our tolerance toward threats.
"you must treat us with respect" being one of them. GAGF.
Some eight weeks ago, then Foreign Minister Payne was hosting a Liberal Party fundraiser while her assistant was in the Solomon Islands trying unsuccessfully to stop the pact with China.
Contrast that with new Foreign Minister Wong’s hands on approach to our South Pacific neighbours and the scuttling of China’s security pact.
In defence of Payne, it seems that she wanted to do more in the South Pacific but was blocked by her colleagues. That said, her authoritarian approach was more likely to put our neighbours offside.
On the big stick side of foreign affairs, the new Government is reportedly considering buying three additional air warfare destroyers and stop-gap submarines; a significant increase in our defensive and force projection capabilities.
The Chinese are doing separate deals now with the nations who have what they want in terms of land position, harbours, docks to give them military advantage.They don't need the pact and will have half of them signed up when they get Tonga on board who have told us to butt out of their business.
We need missile bases with better air defense capabilities to bring planes and inboard missiles down as well to have range and coverage. Happy to have a couple of extra destroyers, subs but we have to have more attack capabilities as a deterrent..imho.
Some eight weeks ago, then Foreign Minister Payne was hosting a Liberal Party fundraiser while her assistant was in the Solomon Islands trying unsuccessfully to stop the pact with China.
Contrast that with new Foreign Minister Wong’s hands on approach to our South Pacific neighbours and the scuttling of China’s security pact.
In defence of Payne, it seems that she wanted to do more in the South Pacific but was blocked by her colleagues. That said, her authoritarian approach was more likely to put our neighbours offside.
On the big stick side of foreign affairs, the new Government is reportedly considering buying three additional air warfare destroyers and stop-gap submarines; a significant increase in our defensive and force projection capabilities.
What did you think about Penny Wong bullying Kimberly Kitching? Take your Labour hat off and answer truthfully.
In defence of Payne, it seems that she wanted to do more in the South Pacific but was blocked by her colleagues. That said, her authoritarian approach was more likely to put our neighbours offside.
'Fraid I have to disagree @DGC ... I think she is / was weak and more than reluctant on a social level to communicate with the electorate. A very poor minister. In fact pitiful
What did you think about Penny Wong bullying Kimberly Kitching? Take your Labour hat off and answer truthfully.
A disturbing story imho and the now Prime Minister should have ordered a proper investigation but given Ms Wongs high profile and the damage politically it might have caused pre election that was never going to happen.
https://www.news.com.au/national/politics/video-captured-moment-at-centre-of-kimberley-kitching-bullying-claims/news-story/67968f8aad13b6420941cac6806bfbd1
I would be interested to know when Senator Kitching had her vaccine booster as well....
There is too much of this issue that is hearsay, and a video like that is somewhat meaningless in the absence of audio, they could just as easily be discussing the misogyny of political foes or planning a night on the tiles!
Unfortunately it's pretty common practise in modern media to find a bunch of fragments and fill in the gaps with the media's preferred facts, and they know well and true that once they told you the story you cannot forget it, even if it later proves to be fake you will still hold doubts.
People think these politicians are arch enemies, in reality most of them end up in the same bar or restaurant at the end of the day having a feed and piss up together! In a period of many weeks or several months there would be hundreds of opportunities for such a discussion between any two politicians, on or off the record!
Are you serious, EB? The issue was whether Senator Kitching had leaked plans for a question time attack on a Liberal minister. If she had, then Labor pollies were within their rights to cut her out of the loop. If the Minister. Linda Reynolds, had smeared Kitching with that allegation when it was untrue, then it's shame on her.
This is not like schoolgirls ganging up on another schoolgirl because she has a bad haircut. There's no suggestion there were attacks made on her that weren't related to political needs. Maintaining confidences with party colleagues is pretty high up on the list of things that pollies are supposed to do. Doing an Akermanis and spilling the beans about team plans aint cool in footy or in politics. Another example in the footy world is Luke Beveridge's attack on Michael Talia when he believed he'd leaked game plans to his brother before the Dogs played the Crows in a final. Kitching didn't suggest that the punishment didn't fit the crime either. Her complaint was that she'd been found guilty by her colleagues when she was innocent. But correct or not, determinations about who can be trusted and who can't be trusted have to be made in politics without the benefit of criminal investigations.
By the way, SloMo sent Fiona Martin to Coventry after she crossed the floor during the vote on the amendments to the Religious Discrimination Bill. He singled her out from the other 4 because according to him (which she denies) Martin had misled him about her intentions. Party support was largely pulled from her reelection campaign which she duly lost.
Politics is all about pressuring colleagues and opponents. The very fact there are parliamentary Whips is the embodiment of that sort of pressure. Unless there's some improper personal aspect to it, such as doing a Harvey Weinstein, or some improper methods are used, then is there any issue? Politics is a tough game. Female politicians shouldn't be expected to behave like besties at morning tea just because they're female.
I'm not surprised this comes from Murdoch's rags. That's a reason of itself to ignore it.
What did you think about Penny Wong bullying Kimberly Kitching? Take your Labour hat off and answer truthfully.
Saint Penny is untouchable.
Saint Penny is untouchable.
Could you imagine the furore if Dutton said that "if you had children" comment?
Given the lack of blowback when the Liberals made a thing of Julia Gillard being childless, I'd imagine there would have been nothing made of it at all. After all, Murdoch wouldn't allow it.
ABC new report from March this year:
In 2019, the ABC reported that Senator Kitching was the subject of a hurtful gibe during an ALP parliamentary meeting.
Senior Labor figures were debating whether to back a Greens Senate motion expressing support for school children engaging in "civil disobedience" at climate protests.
Senator Kitching was adamant the party should not support the motion, arguing it would be an exercise in futile "virtue signalling", observing that some parents might want their kids to be at school.
A senior member of the Left shot back at her: "Well, if you had children, you might understand why there is a climate emergency."
Journalist Sam Maiden identified this person as Penny Wong in her 2020 book, Party Animal
Penny Wong is facing claims she bullied Kimberley Kitching, who died of a heart attack earlier this month.(ABC News: Matt Roberts)
The ABC did not identify Senator Wong in the 2019 article, at the request of Senator Kitching. She wanted it known what had been said to her — witnessed by several other senior Labor figures — but did not want to start "World War III".
She had revealed the exchange to the ABC in the hope it would encourage greater respect.
One Labor senator, who declined to be named, said the treatment of Senator Kitching by some of her colleagues was "disgusting" and had added to the stress of her preselection endorsement being long delayed.
Ms Wong is a nasty piece of work as this article shows pre the Senator Reynolds incident,
, yep ScoMo's dealing with Parliamentary female staffer issues were horrendous but its clear Kimberly Kitching was no favorite of Ms Wongs for a long time and was bullied for a while imho.
Several of Senator Kitching's colleagues have told the ABC that the 52-year-old, who died from a suspected heart attack a week ago, cited the alleged bullying when she was undergoing workplace education on November 5 last year.
The hour-long "safe and respectful workplace training", which was part of the government's response to Brittany Higgins's rape allegation, was conducted by a facilitator over Zoom as part of a Department of Finance program.
Senator Kitching told several colleagues that she had said to the trainer, towards the end of an hour's instruction on sexual harassment, bullying and respect at work: "What are you going to do about the fact that I am being bullied?"
This version of events has been relayed to the ABC by multiple Labor sources in whom Senator Kitching confided — men and women — who claim the Victorian senator was being bullied, ostracised and isolated by the ALP's Senate leadership, which comprises senators Penny Wong, Kristina Keneally and Katy Gallagher.
Love it! Keep the comedy coming.
What did you think about Penny Wong bullying Kimberly Kitching? Take your Labour hat off and answer truthfully.
If you mean Labor hat, I don't have one.
I tend to only follow political issues when they are relevant and of substance and I don't know a lot about Senator Kitching's situation other than her untimely and tragic death.
I do know a bit about bullying have organised several workplace bullying sessions for my teams over the years. It was always satisfying to hear the trainers say, "No, that's not bullying! That's your manager(s) giving you a reasonable direction (or feedback)."
I just shake my head in disbelief at the ignorance of any assertion that Wong somehow 'caused' the tragic heart attack of Kitching. I have no doubt believing that Wong could be a less than compassionate human being, but Kitching would have had an underlying condition that predisposed her to such a medical condition... exacerbated by many factors, both biological/physiological and psychological. Sad and tragic... and attempting to apportion blame is just stupid, cheap and opportunistic.
Love it! Keep the comedy coming.
What happens if a labor member steps out of line?.
@ElwoodBlues1 was right on the mark.
You're bloody well crucified. Or should we talk about peter slipper and craig thomson who were defended to the death.
Hypocrisy ...
Love it! Keep the comedy coming.
Not very funny if you have been workplace bullied, we are talking about a woman who has passed away and serious allegations of bullying have followed. You might want to retract your comedy statement...
As Baggers said, it's pretty despicable for you to try to make the link. I was pretty impressed, though, that you went for the two-fer: not only was her death caused by Penny Wong but also by the booster shot. As the old saying goes, you either have to laugh or cry. I choose to see your efforts as comedy.
I would shake my head in disbelief at labour voters backing Wong but of course I knew they would.
If you mean Labor hat, I don't have one.
I tend to only follow political issues when they are relevant and of substance and I don't know a lot about Senator Kitching's situation other than her untimely and tragic death.
I do know a bit about bullying have organised several workplace bullying sessions for my teams over the years. It was always satisfying to hear the trainers say, "No, that's not bullying! That's your manager(s) giving you a reasonable direction (or feedback)."
How long have you been retired for?
As Baggers said, it's pretty despicable for you to try to make the link. I was pretty impressed, though, that you went for the two-fer: not only was her death caused by Penny Wong but also by the booster shot. As the old saying goes, you either have to laugh or cry. I choose to see your efforts as comedy.
I quoted articles from the ABC, I made no personal reference to what caused her death apart from raising the issue of if she had the vaccine booster which is of interest to me given the increased incidents of heart problems of late. Penny Wong didn't cause her death but the issue of workplace bullying remains unresolved.
My main interest is the workplace bullying given I was a witness to workplace bullying of a fellow engineer and had to go through mediation sessions and legal meetings and a coverup from the company involved who then panicked and threw another staff member under the bus when the legal proceedings got serious and they were being exposed.
I find nothing amusing about any of Kimberly Kitchings heart issues or workplace bullying but as they say small minds are easily amused...
I would shake my head in disbelief at conservative voters attacking Wong but of course I knew they would. A lesbian, Asian left-winger must drive them crazy, particularly when she clearly doesn't GAF about their BS.
Still enjoying your patter, EB. I wonder why you haven't gone big on workplace bullying in the past given how sensitive to it you are. Maybe you could point me to other instances when you've gone big on it in the past. Can't say I remember you taking up the cudgels before.
Mav, I can only comment on my friends experience with workplace bullying and what I read or hear about cases in the media.Kimberly Kitching passed away about the same period as some other notables so of course it attracted my attention.
You didn't disappoint me with your support of Ms Wong based on her sexuality, racial background and far left political persuasion...none of which has anything to do with the debate.
You left out she is a lawyer by trade and mother by marriage of two children which she was happy to point out to be a failing of Senator Kitching who was childless which she later had to apologise for...a low blow indeed given Ms Wongs claims to motherhood might be debated by some.
Penny Wong is an experienced politician qualified to be on the front bench and running her ministry of foreign affairs..no problem with that. But as leadership rival Tanya Plibersek found out Albo has one set of rules for some of his ministers and another set for his inner sanctum of which Ms Wong is part of...
Now, if only you'd been as hot on the bullying of Adam Goodes in his workplace or on the countless examples of right-wing politicians bullying women (or men for that matter) within their parties, I'd be more willing to accept that you're just triggered by this instinctive concern you have. But you only seem to be worried about Penny Wong. I wonder why. You certainly haven't disappointed me in that regard.
a low blow indeed given Ms Wongs claims to motherhood might be debated by some.
I'm guessing you're "some" and you have a bit of an issue with lesbian couples having kids. Nice of you to make that clear.
I'm guessing you're "some" and you have a bit of an issue with lesbian couples having kids. Nice of you to make that clear.
I have no issue with Lesbian couples providing a good home for children, good parents are good parents regardless of race, sexual persuasion and I am sure any child under Ms Wongs care would be well looked after but to use being childless with regards Kimberly Kitchings ability to do her job was very low...so low in fact that she was forced to apologize personally.
Maybe you can explain to me the link between having a good understanding of climate change and motherhood?
Adam Goodes?......I'd suggest Kimberly Kitching was bullied by her Teammates, Adam's issue in his eyes was being bullied by the spectators and receiving lack of support from the AFL community....different issues imho.
Goodes teammates were very strong in support of him both past and present, a bit different to Senator Kitching who had her teammates led by Ms Wong, Kenneally and Gallagher showing her zero support..
By the way, if you want to see how real workplace bullying is done in politics, you'll like this one:
Defamation trial hears ‘malicious’ text message Pauline Hanson sent former senator’s wife, The Guardian. (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/06/defamation-trial-hears-malicious-text-message-pauline-hanson-sent-former-senators-wife)
The court also heard that in the months after his decision to quit the party, Ashby sent Burston texts in which he allegedly called the former senator an “idiot traitorous ****”, a “coward” and an “old man”.
Allegedly Ashby punched the Plaintiff who Pauline alleged had sexually harassed a couple of staffers. They're all no doubt wonderful people.
I have no issue with Lesbian couples providing a good home for children, good parents are good parents regardless of race, sexual persuasion
It's too late for that after you made that snide remark. If the above statement truly represented your view, you wouldn't have made it.
And you well know the point Penny Wong was making was that she wanted a future for her kids and she was therefore in support of a protest by students who were similarly motivated. By the way, in that context it doesn't matter if Penny Wong is the biological mother or not. That sort of concern for the children within the family is just as real for adoptive parents or stepfathers or stepmothers. Indeed, it can be shared by uncles or aunts as well.
In a passionate political debate, Penny Wong's comment was nowhere near as outrageous as you're trying to make out. She should have made the point just by referring to her own kids rather than referring to Kitching's lack of them but the transgression was pretty slight and called for nothing more than a simple apology which was given. Trying to make a federal case out of it as you're trying to do betrays your real motivations.
Petty slight lol.
Yep, totally petty ante.
How long have you been retired for?
I have three jobs on at the moment ... but none involve managing staff.
It's nine years since I was a full time manager.
A major incident involving a Chinese fighter plane and an Australian reconnaissance aircraft in international airspace “seriously endangered the security of China’s sovereignty”, according to Beijing.
China’s military spokesman Tan Kefei, addressing the incident for the first time, also warned Australia will “bear all the serious consequences” if it doesn’t “immediately cease similar dangerous provocative acts”.
Better send Penny over to sort them out.
As her tongue is apparently a lethal weapon, the Chinese would be scared stiff …
A bully to deal with the Chinese bullies, yep well qualified for the job..
Fortunately, she’s smarter than the previous bully, Lord Voldemort. Walking loudly carrying a match stick ain’t the way to go.
I'm not sure labelling any a politician a bully is derogatory or descriptive.
The Chinese will hate Wong, they can't whisper is Cantonese or Mandarin in her presence, and coming from Malaysia she onto the cultural cons. However, the gig is a tough one for any female as the Chinese are fundamentally sexist.
How come our big brave media never ask the Chinese spokespeople or officials why there aren't more females in the bureaucracy or NPC?
I'm not sure labelling any a politician a bully is derogatory or descriptive.
The Chinese will hate Wong, they can't whisper is Cantonese or Mandarin in her presence, and coming from Malaysia she onto the cultural cons. However, the gig is a tough one for any female as the Chinese are fundamentally sexist.
How come our big brave media never ask the Chinese spokespeople or officials why there aren't more females in the bureaucracy or NPC?
Doesn't matter who your foreign minister is male, female, bully, labor, liberal or what the media ask the Chinese we won't be stopping their expansionist ways.
They are building a naval base in Cambodia and it's clear they intend to isolate Taiwan from other nations and then create a blockade of sorts and make it impossible for them to function and then force a takeover. Their recent behaviour with Canada and us in the air shows they have stepped up their bullying and want to trigger a conflict so they can achieve their
expansionist goals by owning the Pacific using their military supremacy.
I wish Ms Wong luck but talking in any language won't stop them and it's time to tool up and get with the program that a strong military deterrent is what we need and not diplomacy.
That goose Biden needs to up the USA involvement and support us like we have the USA..
We should be declaring things like calling political figures names (aka Dutton = Voldemort) as a faux par, and not done.
We try to make a statement at societal level regarding bullying, and attacking someone's appearance, sexuality, gender, ethnic background etc should be off limits.
Its very low brow, and these people are role models after all. We throw the book at AFL footballers for behaving like twats and then give our politicians a pass... Not cool.
We should be declaring things like calling political figures names (aka Dutton = Voldemort) as a faux par, and not done.
We try to make a statement at societal level regarding bullying, and attacking someone's appearance, sexuality, gender, ethnic background etc should be off limits.
Its very low brow, and these people are role models after all. We throw the book at AFL footballers for behaving like twats and then give our politicians a pass... Not cool.
Agreed
The US admin has its plate full at the moment with events in Ukraine and trying to resolve competing opinions among its various groupings as to what actions should be taken. Add in China and events may be sliding out of its control. Hopefully it won't lead to reckless actions.
When he stops behaving like Voldemort, I’ll stop calling him Voldemort.
Maybe I should just insinuate he’d bullied someone to death. That sort of despicable behaviour doesn’t seem to be off limits, does it Thry?
It is a relief to see the Fed Govt using diplomacy to thwart Chinese influence. Yes, I know the LNP also used diplomacy: megaphone diplomacy. But maybe building alliances rather than assuming them has some merit.
China is currently engaged in high visibility courtship of the Indo-Pacific and Wong is countering with her own hearts and minds tour. Her predecessor Marise Payne was a serious and competent person but she wasn’t performative, either by temperament or design.
Wong isn’t performing either. Her intention is persuasion. As she orbits the region, Australia’s new foreign minister is asking Pacific countries, Indonesia, other south-east Asian nations a specific question – what sort of region do we want to be?
The question affords Australia’s neighbours respect and agency and it also leaves some room for nuance. Not every neighbour views China in the same way Australia does, and not every neighbour’s view is informed and shaped by the security alliance that Australia has sought with the US ever since John Curtin looked to America.
Wong’s open-ended pitch is intended to respect national differences as much as the commonalities. The question is also designed to prompt neighbours to look beyond their immediate material needs, and consider how they would like things to be in the next 10 or 20 years.
Australia’s strategic contrast with Beijing is implied, not stated. China’s courtship engages developing countries at the transactional level – what are your immediate needs and how can partnership with us serve them?
Wong is entirely comfortable in this zone because she is a child of the region. Her own story projects the fundamentals of her message: we all have unique traits but we have shared and blended destinies.
So that’s the personal. When it comes to the political, Wong is a child of Bob Hawke and Paul Keating and the doctrine of Asian integration.
But Wong doesn’t govern in times of regional equanimity. China’s regression towards authoritarianism and the escalation of great power competition has handed the current government a more fraught set of dynamics. Albanese and Wong possess the Keating instincts, but they have to tweak and tune the model.
This joint project from Albanese and Wong remains a work in progress.
It is clear Australia’s voice is being heard in the region – and that’s in no small part due to Penny Wong, The Guardian. (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/07/it-is-clear-australias-voice-is-being-heard-in-the-region-and-thats-in-no-small-part-due-to-penny-wong)
They are building a naval base in Cambodia and it's clear they intend to isolate Taiwan from other nations and then create a blockade of sorts and make it impossible for them to function and then force a takeover.
Some think China already run Taiwan, and the protestations are just a smokescreen.
Many see Taiwan as China's enabler, the tool China maintains and uses to bypass most international law, be it human rights, patents or finance. The USA and Britain (probably the whole Five Eyes) turn a blind eye to this because it works both ways, China steals global IP, but everybody also gets to covertly see what China is up to. Nobody can plug Taiwan's leaks.
But for Australia while it pays at a certain security level it really hurts business, exports and innovation, because pretty much as soon as some product gets developed China has stolen the IP via Taiwan and Taiwan remains outside of the treaties and protections, not obliged to conform to global patents or laws. The problem is Australia isn't economically big enough to matter, so it has no leverage outside of what Britain, the EU or the US chose to do for us!
Australia has been either negligent, stupid or racist for too low ignoring it's powerful neighbours, who equally see China as a threat. We should have established a strong SE Asian economic zone years and years ago, and turned Indonesia, Malaysia and The Philippines against a common enemy. Then negotiated with India as a block of nations. Instead we have allowed China to infiltrate those economies and they have as a result made Australia a regional political pariah.
PS; I'm all for the Submarine deal, not because we need them, but because of the alliance it establishes, the ties it strengthens. In comparison France gives us nothing, we could buy 10x as much from France and they are more likely to throw us under the bus when the shizen hits the fan, the EU and many of it's member states are fundamentally untrustworthy because they are flaky sellouts.
As for the anti-nuclear sub protestors, I've no interest in the anti-nuclear parrots. In any case, the tell that the deal was done happened straight after the election, when labour announced the purchase of missiles that are useless when housed on a conventional platform. If the platform cannot loiter indefinitely the missiles are worthless, so it's a huge tell the deal will proceed.
We should have taken it one step further and had the subs nuclear armed.
It is a relief to see the Fed Govt using diplomacy to thwart Chinese influence. Yes, I know the LNP also used diplomacy: megaphone diplomacy. But maybe building alliances rather than assuming them has some merit.
It is clear Australia’s voice is being heard in the region – and that’s in no small part due to Penny Wong, The Guardian. (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/07/it-is-clear-australias-voice-is-being-heard-in-the-region-and-thats-in-no-small-part-due-to-penny-wong)
What's so clear...? They continue to buy off Pacific island nations especially the ones with deep harbours for their warships, they continue to intimidate our aircraft and other western allies aircraft ie Canada, continue to taunt Taiwan and are building a large Naval facility in Cambodia.
You can either stick your head in the sand and pretend it's not happening, do what the English and French did when Hitler marched into the Sudeten land and that was roll over and sign the Munich agreement which meant you can have that land if you promise not to go any further and start a war anywhere else..pretty please Adolf, or you can grow some gonads and stand up to the Chinese arrogance now and show them we won't be intimidated.
I fear it will be choice No 2 where Taiwan will be the new Sudeten land because everyone is running scared of the Chinese muscle and the USA will back off to the Philippines and let China dominate the rest of the Pacific.
Maybe we should declare war on China and invade it like the British and French should have done in 1939. Hope you’ll be amongst the first to enlist, EB.
I fear it will be choice No 2 where Taiwan will be the new Sudeten land because everyone is running scared of the Chinese muscle and the USA will back off to the Philippines and let China dominate the rest of the Pacific.
Neville Chamberlain EB. But the world sits idly by and waits.
Maybe we should declare war on China and invade it like the British and French should have done in 1939. Hope you’ll be amongst the first to enlist, EB.
My father, his father and brothers all served their country across both world wars so I'd be happy play my part in any defense of my country.
I guess you would be putting your hand up to run some re education camps for your new Chinese friends and sorting out those non labor voting conspirators trying to defend their homeland.
You might have to change your name though..Mav is a bit too Aussie, I'm thinking something like Mao, you can add the chairman later when they promote you...
I see you think that anyone who doesn’t want to go to war against China is pro-China rather than anti-annihilation. We had our hands full when a relatively small nation in Japan swept towards Australia and we played only a minor role in that war. Yet you say you fear the US will back away from any conflict but say you want Australia to go it alone? F&*$ that! I want Australia to build alliances in our neighbourhood while arming itself so it can mount some sort of defence if the worst happens. That involves smart diplomacy rather than bluster, bravado and braggadocio.
It's interesting, from my perspective all sides of the debate generally migrate towards the extreme.
In my experience there is no negotiation with China, authorities or executives, they have no respect or deference for any external (non-zhongguo) opinion, and talking is just used as a smokescreen delaying tactic. By the time China or Chinese companies want to talk about something the decision has already been made. Culturally they operate closer to what we would consider criminal behaviour, and laud that behaviour as good business or clever tactics. It's completely naivé of people to think they can negotiate in good faith, even if you find someone you think you can trust, someone who is honourable, there is a bureaucrat, associate or other official behind the scenes ready to screw you over for the good of Zhongguo. This behaviour is embedded in thousands of years of culture, you can negotiate until there is no air left in the room it won't help you. The best way to get some respect is play them at their own game, it's the only thing they respect, like a boxer only respecting another boxer.
Many western politicians or executives find this abhorrent, it seems like a racist western perspective, anathema to their personal perspective of reality, then they carry their sorry arse home having been handed their hat and coat by China on the way out of middle-earth. Actually, their hat and coat was probably stolen as well, what sort of fool left those things unattended!
Which is why we should use diplomacy to build alliances in our neighbourhood. That’s where diplomacy counts. No one suggests we can bend the Chinese to our will simply by diplomacy in a one-on-one setting. But rattling the sabres in the media won’t force the Chinese to back down either. However, rattling the sabres risks making Australia a dangerous ally to have and forces our neighbours into a binary choice: should we gravitate towards China or Australia. We can be firm but quietly spoken and that will win us more friends in our backyard. Let China be belligerent as that will drive our neighbours towards us.
I see you think that anyone who doesn’t want to go to war against China is pro-China rather than anti-annihilation. We had our hands full when a relatively small nation in Japan swept towards Australia and we played only a minor role in that war. Yet you say you fear the US will back away from any conflict but say you want Australia to go it alone? F&*$ that! I want Australia to build alliances in our neighbourhood while arming itself so it can mount some sort of defence if the worst happens. That involves smart diplomacy rather than bluster, bravado and braggadocio.
You must have been under the table with your tin hat(embossed with the hammer and sickle of course) and a copy of the little red book and missed what is happening in Ukraine.
Who are we building alliances with?...New Zealand?, Indonesia, I can see the Indo's running to our aid when the Chinese come a calling...not, maybe our old friends in Papua New Guinea can give us a hand.
You must be slow on the uptake with China, happy to murder, squash their own people with tanks, slaughter Muslims up Nth(watch out Indonesia) and sort out Hong Kong with their kind of diplomacy that usually starts with a gun and ends in a re-education camp if you dont disappear first.
Our neighborhood relies solely on the USA breaking out the big guns and IMHO they wont do that for Taiwan and its 50/50 if they would do it for us and start a massive war with China. I'm no military analyst but we need to be arming ourselves first before we talk diplomacy imho because thats the only diplomacy China respect and they will continue to test the boundaries leading up to the eventual take over of Taiwan which wont be a war but a methodical political isolation of Taiwan first with other countries in the Pacific and then they will strangle them financially by blockades and denying them access to aid from other countries even if it was offered. The USA will not try and break blockades either in the air or by sea and Taiwan will be forced into submission with a puppet government. You, Penny, Dicky Marles and Albo can do your best to try and talk them out of it but I'd be putting energies into obtaining major defensive capabilities and encouraging the USA to build more facilities so they have something to think about defending. Pine Gap which I believe is under USA direction might not be enough one day......
I’m struggling to see how the rattling of sabres works in that setting. You envisage a world in which the USA won’t support us against China and no one else will either. How does the tough talk do us any good? Surely, we should arm ourselves before we try to talk tough? Jeez, no wonder why Lord Voldemort was asleep at the wheel as China secured itself a naval base in the Solomon Islands. He thought Lord Voldemort could scare China into submission. Maybe Harry Potter wasn’t big in China and he overestimated the awe in which he’d be held.
Which is why we should use diplomacy to build alliances in our neighbourhood. That’s where diplomacy counts. No one suggests we can bend the Chinese to our will simply by diplomacy in a one-on-one setting. But rattling the sabres in the media won’t force the Chinese to back down either. However, rattling the sabres risks making Australia a dangerous ally to have and forces our neighbours into a binary choice: should we gravitate towards China or Australia. We can be firm but quietly spoken and that will win us more friends in our backyard. Let China be belligerent as that will drive our neighbours towards us.
What a weird view of reality you possess. Kick the Chinese out of DRW, give it to the U.S., and arm it to the back teeth. Either that, or let Bandt crawl his commo overlords.
You’ll have to tell me what DRW is. Google is stumped.
I’m struggling to see how the rattling of sabres works in that setting. You envisage a world in which the USA won’t support us against China and no one else will either. How does the tough talk do us any good? Surely, we should arm ourselves before we try to talk tough? Jeez, no wonder why Lord Voldemort was asleep at the wheel as China secured itself a naval base in the Solomon Islands. He thought Lord Voldemort could scare China into submission. Maybe Harry Potter wasn’t big in China and he overestimated the awe in which he’d be held.
How much support did Ukraine get?, apart from the West giving them arms so they could take all the risks and do NATO's work for them. As Cap says you have a strange view of the reality of the world, build alliances with who?...who has the military might to help us and have leverage against China in our neighborhood?
Could we rely on the Quad for example.....India...good luck given their economic ties with China and Russia, same country wont even condemn Russia vs Ukraine.....Japan might help us if the USA got involved but nothing guaranteed .
These same lovely people from China are the ones who tried to screw us economically when we suggested an investigation into the origins of CoVid19 from their country. Put Tariffs on imports from Aus, tried to control the Iron Ore price, tried to get Vale back online in Brazil so they could lower the iron ore price and feck us over.
They are not our friends and if it wasnt for their reliance on our resources like Iron Ore, Coal, Rare earths etc wouldnt hesitate in fecking us over even more. Of course Indonesia supply them with about 60% of their coal so good luck relying on them to give us a hand either, maybe Penny can use her immaculate Indonesian to stop the supply to those climate change rebels in Beijing who love a good coal burning power station or two..
You still haven’t explained how you think Australia can tame China. Everybody would wish the CCP away if we could and I would wish that just as much as you. Neo-con war hawks don’t have any monopoly on that score. But how do we turn wishes into reality? Will thoughts and prayers work?
You still haven’t explained how you think Australia can tame China. Everybody would wish the CCP away if we could and I would wish that just as much as you. Neo-con war hawks don’t have any monopoly on that score. But how do we turn wishes into reality? Will thoughts and prayers work?
NATO tamed Russia by playing the same cold war games and having military strength, Putin has chanced his luck with a non NATO country that he thought was an easy target. I am not suggesting we go and try and square up with China man for man, tank for tank, rocket for rocket because for obvious reasons thats a race we cant win. I am saying just have enough of an arsenal to make life tough for any aspiring country wanting to bully us and make it not worth the effort of taunting or displaying threatening behavior with acts like we have seen.
Our main way of hurting China is economically by finding new trading partners and getting off the Chinese teat with regards a high dependence on them buying iron ore, coal etc etc and other commodities we do well and have the best quality.
The Chinese people are good people who work hard and as we have seen integrate into other countries well but the leadership of China has one thing in mind and thats domination of their region and that wont diminish so imho we will have to live in a cold war balancing act state but not be one of the weak countries that leaves itself vulnerable.
You look at Israel and while I dont agree with everything Israel does you have to acknowledge how they exist and deal with a lot of hostile neighbors and middle east issues. No one messes with Israel because those other countries know whats coming back and how ready they are to stand up for themselves. Sure they are backed by the USA with weapons etc but they are a force in their own right and while I dont want Aus becoming a nation with national service and everyone trained in how to use a gun etc I think we can learn a bit from the likes of Israel and Ukraine how to go about shoring up our country as a deterrent...not as an aggressor but with the idea you mess with us and its going to cost you economically and in battle if you push us to the extreme.
Its going to cost money, make any Government who leans that way unpopular but if we want to protect our way of life we need to have another plan not just the diplomatic route.
Surely the last decade of conservative rule has left us with an impressive military. Or did it just concentrate on car parks and small government?
Surely the last decade of conservative rule has left us with an impressive military. Or did it just concentrate on car parks and small government?
More needs to be spent to modernize our military in the areas where we have early warning and better air coverage imo. Romania a NATO country had two missiles which were never identified either Russian or misfired Ukranian that entered their airspace and we're not detected until they were well into the country.
Their old Jets couldnt be scrambled in time and the missiles luckily didn't do any damage. We don't want similar here, defense hasn't been a priority for a long while on the basis that the USA will hold our hand and have our back.
Taiwan will be the test if the USA can be relied upon but I'd rather we show some more initiative and prepare early.
So, because the LNP thought they were protected by the US so all they had to do was talk tough, it falls to Labor to do all the hard work and find the money? I'm thinking this is a bit like the Libs in Victoria committing $50b to the East-West Link on the eve of an election and imposing penalties for cancellation in the hope it would stuff up Labor's priorities.
We've recently discovered that a sharp increase in gas prices that ordinarily should have been revealed on 1 May was mysteriously delayed until after the election and just as mysteriously the RBA has just realised it needs to make serial interest rate rises. And now, without saying flatly that the LNP dropped the ball, you say that Labor needs to massively increase military expenditure to such a point it will become unpopular. Pardon me if I'm a bit cynical about your viewpoint that diplomacy is useless and a massive military buildup is the only way.
Maybe I should just insinuate he’d bullied someone to death. That sort of despicable behaviour doesn’t seem to be off limits, does it Thry?
I dont think thats any better.
You might want to leave that argument with whom you were having it, because fundamentally you don't know how correct or incorrect it is, and irrespective of what you believe about a person, often the way you treat someone reflects more on you than it does them.
So, because the LNP thought they were protected by the US so all they had to do was talk tough, it falls to Labor to do all the hard work and find the money? I'm thinking this is a bit like the Libs in Victoria committing $50b to the East-West Link on the eve of an election and imposing penalties for cancellation in the hope it would stuff up Labor's priorities.
We've recently discovered that a sharp increase in gas prices that ordinarily should have been revealed on 1 May was mysteriously delayed until after the election and just as mysteriously the RBA has just realised it needs to make serial interest rate rises. And now, without saying flatly that the LNP dropped the ball, you say that Labor needs to massively increase military expenditure to such a point it will become unpopular. Pardon me if I'm a bit cynical about your viewpoint that diplomacy is useless and a massive military buildup is the only way.
Everyone knew about the RBA rises well out from the election, inflation was running at 8% in the USA and is about 5% here, the RBA target about 2-3% inflation. The previous interest rate rise was too low as the RBA didnt want to go hard, there will be more rises as there will in the USA where we take our lead from. The reality is people who have over borrowed will be in trouble but low interest rates were never a given to stay that way even though Phil Lowe promised no hikes till 2024.
Australia is in for a tough time like a lot of countries but the Ukraine War, China Lockdown and inflation are the reasons...no one is blaming the Labor Government and the RBA are only doing their job.
Gas prices are due to the hike in global prices, bad timing for labor but not exactly a secret that energy prices are up around the world, no one is blaming Labor again, fossil fuel prices are up...supply and demand. Less reliance on fossil fuel energy needed...maybe time to think nuclear but someone needs to pay for the transmission line upgrades as the Australian system is falling apart, that means foreign investment and your Chinese friends owning more of our Electrical Suppliers/Distributors but you wouldnt mind that I guess?
Dan Andrews is your expert on how to blow money on infrastructure capital expenditure, think he holds the record for so many overblown budgets on infrastructure projects in Victoria. Dan isnt good with figures though and has a problem with working out who signs off on contracts and where the money went so maybe dont waste your time...
Don't military contracts have a bit of a history of blowing out? After all, wasn't that the LNP's justification for cancelling the contract for the French subs, even though the defence department officials in charge of it stated that the contract was within expectations? And we ended up paying out $5b to the French for nothing in return. And let's not even mention the F-35 deal ... Oh, what the hell, let's mention it:
Australia spent billions on jet fighters off the plan. Now, we’re having trouble even flying them, The Conversation. (https://theconversation.com/australia-spent-billions-on-jet-fighters-off-the-plan-now-were-having-trouble-even-flying-them-177156#:~:text=The%20US%20and%20several%20European,of%20around%20A%2416%20billion.)
Continuous upgrades at tremendous cost
...
Most of Australia’s fleet is planned to be upgraded to be broadly similar to the US fleet, although this will cost even more money. It may seem strange to have to pay extra to upgrade a brand new aircraft on delivery, but that’s not the end of the problems. There is another complication.
Australia’s latest F-35s (as well as the upgraded older ones) use the Block 3F software, a digital operating system designed by Lockheed Martin. It is proving to be just as costly to keep updated as the jets themselves.
Lt. Gen. S. Clinton Hinote, the US Air Force’s deputy chief of staff, has serious concerns about the outdated software, saying last year, "the block that is coming off the line right now is not a block that I feel good about going up against China and Russia".
He noted recent war games focused on the prospect of defending Taiwan from Chinese air attack showed "Every [F-35] that rolls off the line today is a fighter that we wouldn’t even bother putting into these scenarios."
This means Australia’s F-35s appear not to be as good as the potential opposition. It seems Australia is paying to lose the air combat battle.
The only solution: another upgrade
So, what is the solution to these seemingly intractable and eye-wateringly expensive problems?
Lockheed Martin is advocating a major operating system software upgrade: the Block 4. It might not be surprising to hear this is now running years late, with delivery expected in 2027 or later. It is also significantly over budget.
In a small piece of good news, the last nine F-35 aircraft Australia will get off the production line next year, and may be partly Block 4 compatible. Hinote thinks these F-35s might be capable of fighting against first-rate adversaries.
The bad news is the full Block 4 upgrade now requires a major engine upgrade or even a new engine. So, this means Australia’s current F-35 fleet might not be able to use all the Block 4 software until after 2030 – and at a substantial cost.
Buying another hugely expensive upgrade for a brand new fighter is actually the cheap way out. The US Air Force’s focus is already shifting to the Block 4 upgraded aircraft. Countries like ours with older F-35s will be left to fend for ourselves if we don’t embrace the new technology, as well.
But the costs do keeping going up, and the problems with these F-35 jets haven’t seemed to stop. It’s the price of buying off the plan, which anyone who’s bought a house or apartment would surely know.
Why would you want Labor pouring infinite amounts of money into defence procurement when apparently Labor has difficulty preventing blowouts?
Wouldn't it be good if previous federal governments had clearly identified what our defence needs are, the equipment needed to fulfil those needs, the time frames for its supply, the expenditure needed and how it will be paid for.
Instead, senior Defence personnel cannot agree on whether we need to prepare for a long-range war, such as supporting the USA in defending Taiwan if it is attacked by China, or prepare for our own defence and that of nearby neighbours.
I watched an interview a few days ago where one of our most senior navy commanders would not have a bar of ordering an interim sub before the delivery of the first nuclear sub somewhere in the 2040s. Given the rapidly changing global situation I thought he was delusional.
Despite numerous White Papers over several decades identifying what Australia should do for its own protection, we have managed to waste billions of dollars on equipment not fit for purpose.
With no clear path forward we are virtually defenceless. China could collapse our economy within a matter of a few weeks without firing a shot in anger. We are supposed to have a minimum 90 day oil reserve but only a few days of that reserve is in Australia at any time: the rest is held in the USA because it is cheaper to store there!
Just the threat of sinking oil tankers crossing the Pacific to Australia would cause them to be uninsurable and there goes our oil reserve.
I just see more years ahead where the powers that be will continue to dither and leave us completely unprepared to defend ourselves.
Federal governments. I spit in their general direction.
They've been too busy knifing each other over whos the leader in the last 15 years to make a concerted effort to do anything properly. Most of them have wasted a golden opportunity to lead us in the boom times by throwing money away like it was confetti on both sides of the political spectrum.
This forum is a perfect example of what's wrong. You criticise one, the comeback is often about the other, which serves only to deflect rather than learn how to do it better.
I hated John Howard but he was arguably the last proper leader we've had. The rest have had the title without the stones to actually lead.
Wouldn't it be good if previous federal governments had clearly identified what our defence needs are, the equipment needed to fulfil those needs, the time frames for its supply, the expenditure needed and how it will be paid for.
Instead, senior Defence personnel cannot agree on whether we need to prepare for a long-range war, such as supporting the USA in defending Taiwan if it is attacked by China, or prepare for our own defence and that of nearby neighbours.
I watched an interview a few days ago where one of our most senior navy commanders would not have a bar of ordering an interim sub before the delivery of the first nuclear sub somewhere in the 2040s. Given the rapidly changing global situation I thought he was delusional.
Despite numerous White Papers over several decades identifying what Australia should do for its own protection, we have managed to waste billions of dollars on equipment not fit for purpose.
With no clear path forward we are virtually defenceless. China could collapse our economy within a matter of a few weeks without firing a shot in anger. We are supposed to have a minimum 90 day oil reserve but only a few days of that reserve is in Australia at any time: the rest is held in the USA because it is cheaper to store there!
Just the threat of sinking oil tankers crossing the Pacific to Australia would cause them to be uninsurable and there goes our oil reserve.
I just see more years ahead where the powers that be will continue to dither and leave us completely unprepared to defend ourselves.
Dont disagree, I dont rate the Morrison years as great for defense planning and my expectations of Labor are similar so I expect the same reliance on the USA and as a standalone nation we are as you say defenceless.
Also agree we have wasted money on poor choice equipment, the Fench sub deal as Mav suggests and its been a balls up because most including the public think it doesnt matter because our friends in the USA will come to our rescue anyway.
re: Mavs question on blowouts, no I dont expect Labor to increase defense spending and my budget blowout issues are with the Victorian State Government. I didnt vote for either major party so I'm not sitting in judgement on Albo and crew yet who have only been in Government 5 minutes and who probably dont see it as a priority and will pursue the diplomatic route as their form of defense. Australia has a massive national debt due to Covid and will also have issues retaining its AAA credit rating so I dont think anyone expects money to be plucked out of thin air for extra defense spending.
The world's a little bit rooted at the moment and it kind of has a feeling of inevitability that it's going to blow somewhere.
It's not a simple situation, as treaties and alliances seem to be intertwined and in some cases conflicting.
How any Australian Government can limit our exposure to threats, and at the same time fulfill our obligations under such treaties is not an easy task.
This isn't a turnbull kicking session but he was responsible for the french submarines deal. A complete stuff up.
The world's a little bit rooted at the moment and it kind of has a feeling of inevitability that it's going to blow somewhere.
It's not a simple situation, as treaties and alliances seem to be intertwined and in some cases conflicting.
How any Australian Government can limit our exposure to threats, and at the same time fulfill our obligations under such treaties is not an easy task.
Agree, its not a good time to inherit Government after a Pandemic, with high inflation leading to high interest rates across the globe due to supply/demand issues and with all the hot spots developing and countries having to act quickly and make important decisions on how they will spend their budgets with pressure of issues like climate change, wages growth vs defense spending etc and work out who their friends are.
The world's a little bit rooted at the moment and it kind of has a feeling of inevitability that it's going to blow somewhere.
It's not a simple situation, as treaties and alliances seem to be intertwined and in some cases conflicting.
How any Australian Government can limit our exposure to threats, and at the same time fulfill our obligations under such treaties is not an easy task.
Also, with a population of 26M and our geographic location, we are a pimple on the worlds ass. We have zero buying power when it comes to supply of things like cars, medical supplies, building materials etc. I have mates that work for Toyota, they have told me many time how low we are on the pecking order in terms of getting cars. People crapcan companies like big bad CSL, if they weren't here in Australia manufacturing the speciliast drugs they do, we'd be forked.
https://au.yahoo.com/news/chinas-ominous-move-military-operations-other-than-war-233355216.html
I wouldnt be bothered with wasting the air fuel on envoys, foreign minister visits and talking peace with these lovely folk, be the same waste of time when Britain and France tried to talk sweet nothings to Hitler while he was arming his country to its eyeballs and preparing for war. Its clear China havent spent all this money on the military to play wargames amongst themselves and want the real thing and have some targets in mind. ie Taiwan as the article suggests.
I do like their sense of humor though and how they manage to talk disaster relief, humanitarian aid, escort, and peacekeeping, as well as safeguarding China’s national sovereignty, security and development interests as reasons for Xi making it legal in China for them to make war on anyone they choose...legal basis to make war?????. Very nice PR for the local Chinese folk who the regime want to convince its all good now to send them off and right is on their side.
Anyone in Taiwan with somewhere else to go might want to think about a quick exit.......
Not sure why you think diplomacy is useless. Without it, we’re at the mercy of a much bigger military unless the US military will intervene. Using diplomacy to understand the opponent and convey our positions clearly is better than twiddling our thumbs. And it’s better than using bluster or megaphone diplomacy as Dutton and Co. loved to do.
Fortunately, we rely on Embassies staffed by experienced public servants rather than political friends and donors which is the US model. Having a PM & Foreign Minister who act in accordance with the best advice is much better than creating political dramas for domestic political advantage.
Not sure why you think diplomacy is useless. Without it, we’re at the mercy of a much bigger military unless the US military will intervene. Using diplomacy to understand the opponent and convey our positions clearly is better than twiddling our thumbs. And it’s better than using bluster or megaphone diplomacy as Dutton and Co. loved to do.
Fortunately, we rely on Embassies staffed by experienced public servants rather than political friends and donors which is the US model. Having a PM & Foreign Minister who act in accordance with the best advice is much better than creating political dramas for domestic political advantage.
Not sure why you think China are interested in being diplomatic about anything? Convey our position and understand our opponent? You would have to be living under a rock on Mars not to know our position and understand how delicately balanced things are with our Chinese opponent(good choice of words, I like opponent) .
Begging to the Chinese to take their boot of our throat will only work if we give up something and I hope you dont mean selling Taiwan down the Yangtze river, ending our military agreements with the USA and then calling that a diplomatic solution....Bravo Penny and Albo.....if they chose that route.
https://au.yahoo.com/news/chinas-ominous-move-military-operations-other-than-war-233355216.html
they manage to talk disaster relief, humanitarian aid, escort, and peacekeeping, as well as safeguarding China’s national sovereignty, security and development interests as reasons for Xi making it legal in China for them to make war on anyone they choose...legal basis to make war?????. Very nice PR
Peacekeeping? Under their rules of course
Peacekeeping? Under their rules of course
The Mafia used to call it Protection and charge for the service, the Chinese are offering it for free how nice are they?😉
Strange that you think diplomacy is useful only if you can bend the other side to our will.
Maybe we should save money by pulling out our Embassy and consulate staff in China. Then we can kick out the Chinese embassy staff. If we ever need to send them a message, we could follow in the footsteps of Dutton by doing it via the Australian media or perhaps we could do it via the French now we’re back on terms with them.
Strange that you think diplomacy is useful only if you can bend the other side to our will.
Even stranger than you believing diplomacy is a feature of their political dealings.
So a Cold War setting would be fine by you?
So a Cold War setting would be fine by you?
I think we're already there.
I'm a little young to remember the Cuban Missile crisis. I think our parents shielded us a bit from news like that back in the day, but I can't think of another time when I've been as concerned about the prospect of a 'hot' war.
It's only a wrong move by someone away.
Diplomacy is always worth the effort, and I understand at some high level the Russians, Chinese and Americans are all still very much in discussions...but the aim of those is to stop things from escalating further rather than pulling back.
There is a danger, as we've seen in Ukraine, in being unaligned.
You may end up fighting a proxy war for a Superpower where they'll supply you with arms, but essentially your on your own.
Would Putin have been so bold if Ukraine had already been part of NATO?
At the end of the day the big concern is that wars involving ground troops will prove to be very costly.
Russia is struggling to tame a corner of Ukraine.
How would their army go against the combined armies of NATO.
How difficult would it be for another country to occupy and hold control over a country as vast as Australia.
You would need a massive armed force and the logistics of resupplying that army would be a nightmare.
The options for such an attack aren't so much military ones...they're economic, cyber attacks or...perish the thought, nuclear.
NATO should have taken Ukraine in instantly, Putin's a bully but the Kremlin isn't full of morons, they are not going to go down a path mutually assured destruction. All these powers have tactical nuclear weapons, much smaller devices than those used against Japan but still capable of destroying an air or naval base in a single blow. If there was any serious intent to use nuclear weapons I think they would have used these smaller devices by now because they are unlikely to cause an escalation.
So for me that is a huge tell, this is about wealth and power and nothing to do with ideology.
China would occupy Australia fairly easily imho given everyone lives on the coast.
They have massive air superiority and would parachute troops in.
Don't see any ground force major battles at all. They also have the largest Navy in the world and would bring in supplies to the coastal areas with air cover.
The USA would have to intervene early or we would be cooked very quickly.
Being a multicultural society I don't expect the same nationalistic defense we have seen from Ukraine either..
I think you’re vastly overestimating China’s military capacity EB … and underestimating our defence assets.
I’m working today - on a rain break - but I will provide further details when I get home.
Remember that China has one aircraft carrier - an ex-Soviet vessel that was never finished. It’s very old technology and would be easy meat for our Collins class subs and air to surface missiles.
It's taken Russia an army of well over 100,000 men several months to gradually capture territory in a country with which it shares a common border.
How much harder to conquer an island nation over 7000km away.
Yes, our population is spread along the coast, but that coast stretches for many 1000s of kilometres and we also have many larger inland population centres especially through Victoria, New South wales and Queensland
How hard would it be to transport troops and supplies in the numbers that would be required to take territory.
That assumes no intervention or support from other countries for our cause which would make the task even more difficult and leave the attacker open for retaliation from others.
It's taken Russia an army of well over 100,000 men several months to gradually capture territory in a country with which it shares a common border.
How much harder to conquer an island nation over 7000km away.
Yes, our population is spread along the coast, but that coast stretches for many 1000s of kilometres and we also have many larger inland population centres especially through Victoria, New South wales and Queensland
How hard would it be to transport troops and supplies in the numbers that would be required to take territory.
That assumes no intervention or support from other countries for our cause which would make the task even more difficult and leave the attacker open for retaliation from others.
With all due respect to everything being considered, Russia is exercising restraint because people are not interested in wiping out the local populace.
They want to take it over, not eliminate it. The west over simplified the Russian failures. When the conflict is over, Russia want to retain its stronghold, by aligning the populace with their goals. If they wanted to flatten it, and take it, they would have done it by now, and I expect that this is the status quo being aimed for.
The Chinese are using subterfuge anyway. Purchase it all, and then after wards you dont need to invade it. You get it by proxy. Go to Glen Waverley and Box Hill. Take a walk around. Its not very western there anymore, and you feel like a tourist in your own neighbourhood.
Ideology is at the heart of every war. Politics and resources along with ideology. The key is eliminating identity which is why once you have a foreign nation going "same same" you are ripe for the picking by them, unless you are the stronger one.
China is way more interesting in Taiwan than it will ever be in Australia. Our economy is its personal bank account.
China would squash us like an ant if they wanted to.
China would squash us like an ant if they wanted to.
They would, because they have nuclear weapons.
Much, much harder to defeat and occupy a country our size with military alone.
They would, because they have nuclear weapons.
Much, much harder to defeat and occupy a country our size with military alone.
Helps that they are a led by a tyrant and a loony.
OK, let's look at EB's suggestion that China could invade Australia by landing paratroops.
The Chinese airforce has the Y-20 transport, a knock off of the C-17 Globemaster but with dodgy, underpowered turbofan engines that render it unreliable and underpowered in comparison to the C-17. The Y-20 can transport around 200 paratroops or one Type 99 tank (roughly equivalent to the Leopards that we scrapped around ten years ago). The Y-20 would have to land on a suitable airstrip in order to unload its tank. The Y-20 has a range of just under 8,000km, meaning that they could reach northern Australia, drop their paratroopers, then crash into the sea on the way home.
China's J-20 "fifth generation" fighter jet has serious problems with its engines and cannot carry the weapons or perform the operational tasks the Chinese were hoping for. That means that the Y-20s, on their suicide paratroop delivery mission would have no protection and would be defenceless against our Super Hornets, Growlers and F-35s. Even if some paratroops managed to land, they would lack heavy weapons and would be slaughtered by our integrated infantry and armour battle groups.
An amphibious assault would probably have a slightly greater chance of success but only if it was protected by air superiority. China's aircraft carrier could not provide that in the face of threats from our far more sophisticated surface warships, submarines and land-based aircraft.
China has massive armed forces but, like Russia, they spend a fraction of what the USA invests in its military. Chinese military hardware is almost exclusively cheap copies of Russian weaponry and is decades behind western military technology. More importantly, their command and control is stuck in the quagmire that is the Chinese Communist Party. Political extremism may suppress a population but it doesn't have the innovation and free thinking that wins wars.
Of course, China could obliterate us with nuclear weapons but why would it do that and face nuclear obliteration from the our allies, defence partners and its long term opponents?
A conventional warfare attack on Australia is beyond China's capacity. The greatest threat China poses to Australia, apart from shutting down markets, is cyber warfare and we should be savvy enough to counter that.
I think you’re vastly overestimating China’s military capacity EB … and underestimating our defence assets.
I’m working today - on a rain break - but I will provide further details when I get home.
Remember that China has one aircraft carrier - an ex-Soviet vessel that was never finished. It’s very old technology and would be easy meat for our Collins class subs and air to surface missiles.
DJ, Think we might be under estimating them, they seem to have been busy......
https://au.yahoo.com/news/chinese-jets-scrambled-after-act-of-intimidation-above-taiwan-000024138.html
https://interestingengineering.com/china-carrier-the-fujian
https://eurasiantimes.com/us-fears-losing-air-superiority-to-china-by-2035/
They appear to be testing the waters literally and its clear why they want some of those Pacific nations with nice large deep water
Harbours and to upgrade airstrips. They also have been investing in air tankers to replace some of their ageing Soviet types, I see the Chinese military lacking the experience of the USA but having the advantage of being closer to Taiwan and being able to deploy more numbers quicker. IMO its more concerning everyday as the Chinese practice and try and give their military more exposure to real life battle experience and just push the boundaries more and in 2023/24 I fear Taiwan will be blockaded and then face invasion unless the USA lift their game and show more intent which is doubtful imo under a Biden Government, the man himself has said he would intervene but his advisors have used the word " assist" and pulled back on his more assertive threats to China so I'm not having a crack at Joe but more the use of the phrase " Strategic Ambiguity" as a policy which gives the USA an out.
DJ, Think we might be under estimating them, they seem to have been busy......
https://au.yahoo.com/news/chinese-jets-scrambled-after-act-of-intimidation-above-taiwan-000024138.html
https://interestingengineering.com/china-carrier-the-fujian
https://eurasiantimes.com/us-fears-losing-air-superiority-to-china-by-2035/
They appear to be testing the waters literally and its clear why they want some of those Pacific nations with nice large deep water
Harbours and to upgrade airstrips. They also have been investing in air tankers to replace some of their ageing Soviet types, I see the Chinese military lacking the experience of the USA but having the advantage of being closer to Taiwan and being able to deploy more numbers quicker. IMO its more concerning everyday as the Chinese practice and try and give their military more exposure to real life battle experience and just push the boundaries more and in 2023/24 I fear Taiwan will be blockaded and then face invasion unless the USA lift their game and show more intent which is doubtful imo under a Biden Government, the man himself has said he would intervene but his advisors have used the word " assist" and pulled back on his more assertive threats to China so I'm not having a crack at Joe but more the use of the phrase " Strategic Ambiguity" as a policy which gives the USA an out.
The Chinese might be lacking the military experience of the US but like their Russian mates, they have the US covered in nut job factor. They are out there looking for trouble and will be only to happy to engage with anyone who entertains their poking.
The Chinese might be lacking the military experience of the US but like their Russian mates, they have the US covered in nut job factor. They are out there looking for trouble and will be only to happy to engage with anyone who entertains their poking.
You don't have to use nuclear weapons and other heavy hitting methods of war....
You just have to have the enemy believe you are crazy enough to use nuclear weapons etc.....
The Chinese have waged a war for generations already. You don't have to look far to see how successful their invasion has been.
https://www.businessinsider.com/china-largest-destroyer-most-powerful-055-lhasa-renhai-nanchang-zumwalt-2022-6
Several military experts told the Global Times, a Chinese state media outlet, that the destroyer's role was to deter foreign intervention in case China conducted a military attack on Taiwan.
Seems a well equipped vessel and to me there is no doubt everything the Chinese are building military wise has a theme to it and the end result has Taiwan on the right hand side of the equals sign.
https://www.businessinsider.com/china-largest-destroyer-most-powerful-055-lhasa-renhai-nanchang-zumwalt-2022-6
Several military experts told the Global Times, a Chinese state media outlet, that the destroyer's role was to deter foreign intervention in case China conducted a military attack on Taiwan.
Seems a well equipped vessel and to me there is no doubt everything the Chinese are building military wise has a theme to it and the end result has Taiwan on the right hand side of the equals sign.
Penny Wong will sort it
This is a very good, recent appraisal of the military threat China poses to Australia:
https://www.lowyinstitute.org/publications/australia-and-growing-reach-china-s-military
Another important factor is that, apart from oppressing its own citizens, China's military hasn't been involved in a shooting war since the middle of last century.
This is a very good, recent appraisal of the military threat China poses to Australia:
https://www.lowyinstitute.org/publications/australia-and-growing-reach-china-s-military
Another important factor is that, apart from oppressing its own citizens, China's military hasn't been involved in a shooting war since the middle of last century.
Good article, however China seem on course to fulfill most of those objectives and Taiwan is the big domino that if it falls opens up the Pacific and us to more intimidation especially economically.
China and India recently exchanged pleasantries on the border and from memory 20 odd Indian troops or police were killed so while they haven't been in battle with anyone they don't mind skirmishes and are just looking for an excuse to escalate and test boundaries.
They are an expansionist nation who need to be stopped before they take Taiwan.
Imho that article didn't say anything to convince me that China won't be owning Taiwan sooner than later and that the USA are a sure thing to intervene.
Russia has become China’s biggest oil supplier as the two super powers forge an alliance of convenience against the West.
China has now emerged as the leading financier of Kremlin’s war on Ukraine, buying Russia’s heavily discounted oil reserves that combined with India, is seeing 2.4 million barrels of Russian crude a day being sold.
But NATO leaders and diplomats and other world leaders including Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese meeting in Madridon Tuesday fear the Chinese indirect funding of the conflict is part of a broader security threat that includes the Indo-Pacific region.
Russia has become China’s biggest oil supplier as the two super powers forge an alliance of convenience against the West.
China has now emerged as the leading financier of Kremlin’s war on Ukraine, buying Russia’s heavily discounted oil reserves that combined with India, is seeing 2.4 million barrels of Russian crude a day being sold.
But NATO leaders and diplomats and other world leaders including Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese meeting in Madridon Tuesday fear the Chinese indirect funding of the conflict is part of a broader security threat that includes the Indo-Pacific region.
Send in the Wongster, she'll sort it.
Russia has become China’s biggest oil supplier as the two super powers forge an alliance of convenience against the West.
China has now emerged as the leading financier of Kremlin’s war on Ukraine, buying Russia’s heavily discounted oil reserves that combined with India, is seeing 2.4 million barrels of Russian crude a day being sold.
But NATO leaders and diplomats and other world leaders including Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese meeting in Madridon Tuesday fear the Chinese indirect funding of the conflict is part of a broader security threat that includes the Indo-Pacific region.
China want Taiwan. Russia and Ukraine is exactly the right foil for them.
This video explains it better than I can.
https://youtu.be/p6sCsOdqXQw
What will the world do if China elects to March on Taiwan??
China want Taiwan. Russia and Ukraine is exactly the right foil for them.
This video explains it better than I can.
https://youtu.be/p6sCsOdqXQw
What will the world do if China elects to March on Taiwan??
Its not if, its when
What will the world do if China elects to March on Taiwan??
Help of course.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/322/205/b8d.jpg)
Send in the Wongster, she'll sort it.
She will need a gun, Russia now own the Donbas region bar one small stronghold and are moving in on that too....they are just sat back long range artillery and missile shelling now and raising everything to the ground.
The Ukranians have been brave but the Russian tactics have changed and the Chinese will keep the Russia artillery in supply being the scumbags they are. Those latest tactics where they fired on Kyiv civilian targets was another war crime designed to attack the psyche of the Ukranian people, seeing children trapped screaming in rubble must be hard for Zelensky to watch knowing Nato and the West wont be bailing them out and I hear his fighting words that they will take the Dombas back but I fear its too late and thats Russian territory now for good.
Putin is also providing his lacky boy mate the leader of Belarus with a missile system as well, defensive he calls it but it has nuclear capabilities and will be used to attack Ukraine from the Belarus border and probably attack NATO supplies from Poland once they cross the Ukraine border.
What will the world do if China elects to March on Taiwan??
Laugh when they drown is my guess.
China want Taiwan. Russia and Ukraine is exactly the right foil for them.
This video explains it better than I can.
https://youtu.be/p6sCsOdqXQw
What will the world do if China elects to March on Taiwan??
Laugh when they drown is my guess.
https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2021/6/25/china-building-formidable-amphibious-fleet
They will probably have a comfortable trip over and be able to find a nice hotel for the night when the USA and others leave the Taiwanese to surrender and Taiwan becomes the latest PLA outpost....