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Re: China

Reply #60 –
Quote from: Mav on
Maybe we should declare war on China and invade it like the British and French should have done in 1939. Hope you’ll be amongst the first to enlist, EB.
My father, his father and brothers all served their country across both world wars so I'd be happy play my part in any defense of my country.
I guess you would be putting your hand up to run some re education camps for your new Chinese friends and sorting out those non labor voting conspirators trying to defend their homeland.
You might have to change your name though..Mav is a bit too Aussie, I'm thinking something like Mao, you can add the chairman later when they promote you...

Re: China

Reply #61 –
I see you think that anyone who doesn’t want to go to war against China is pro-China rather than anti-annihilation. We had our hands full when a relatively small nation in Japan swept towards Australia and we played only a minor role in that war. Yet you say you fear the US will back away from any conflict but say you want Australia to go it alone? F&*$ that! I want Australia to build alliances in our neighbourhood while arming itself so it can mount some sort of defence if the worst happens. That involves smart diplomacy rather than bluster, bravado and braggadocio.

Re: China

Reply #62 –
It's interesting, from my perspective all sides of the debate generally migrate towards the extreme.

In my experience there is no negotiation with China, authorities or executives, they have no respect or deference for any external (non-zhongguo) opinion, and talking is just used as a smokescreen delaying tactic. By the time China or Chinese companies want to talk about something the decision has already been made. Culturally they operate closer to what we would consider criminal behaviour, and laud that behaviour as good business or clever tactics. It's completely naivé of people to think they can negotiate in good faith, even if you find someone you think you can trust, someone who is honourable, there is a bureaucrat, associate or other official behind the scenes ready to screw you over for the good of Zhongguo. This behaviour is embedded in thousands of years of culture, you can negotiate until there is no air left in the room it won't help you. The best way to get some respect is play them at their own game, it's the only thing they respect, like a boxer only respecting another boxer.

Many western politicians or executives find this abhorrent, it seems like a racist western perspective, anathema to their personal perspective of reality, then they carry their sorry arse home having been handed their hat and coat by China on the way out of middle-earth. Actually, their hat and coat was probably stolen as well, what sort of fool left those things unattended!
The Force Awakens!

Re: China

Reply #63 –
Which is why we should use diplomacy to build alliances in our neighbourhood. That’s where diplomacy counts. No one suggests we can bend the Chinese to our will simply by diplomacy in a one-on-one setting. But rattling the sabres in the media won’t force the Chinese to back down either. However, rattling the sabres risks making Australia a dangerous ally to have and forces our neighbours into a binary choice: should we gravitate towards China or Australia. We can be firm but quietly spoken and that will win us more friends in our backyard. Let China be belligerent as that will drive our neighbours towards us.

Re: China

Reply #64 –
Quote from: Mav on
I see you think that anyone who doesn’t want to go to war against China is pro-China rather than anti-annihilation. We had our hands full when a relatively small nation in Japan swept towards Australia and we played only a minor role in that war. Yet you say you fear the US will back away from any conflict but say you want Australia to go it alone? F&*$ that! I want Australia to build alliances in our neighbourhood while arming itself so it can mount some sort of defence if the worst happens. That involves smart diplomacy rather than bluster, bravado and braggadocio.
You must have been under the table with your tin hat(embossed with the hammer and sickle of course) and a copy of the little red book and missed what is happening in Ukraine.
Who are we building alliances with?...New Zealand?, Indonesia, I can see the Indo's running to our aid when the Chinese come a calling...not, maybe our old friends in Papua New Guinea can give us a hand.
You must be slow on the uptake with China, happy to murder, squash their own people with tanks, slaughter Muslims up Nth(watch out Indonesia) and sort out Hong Kong with their kind of diplomacy that usually starts with a gun and ends in a re-education camp if you dont disappear first.
Our neighborhood relies solely on the USA breaking out the big guns and IMHO they wont do that for Taiwan and its 50/50 if they would do it for us and start a massive war with China. I'm no military analyst but we need to be arming ourselves first before we talk diplomacy imho because thats the only diplomacy China respect and they will continue to test the boundaries leading up to the eventual take over of Taiwan which wont be a war but a methodical political isolation of Taiwan first with other countries in the Pacific and then they will strangle them financially by blockades and denying them access to aid from other countries even if it was offered. The USA will not try and break blockades either in the air or by sea and Taiwan will be forced into submission with a puppet government. You, Penny, Dicky Marles and Albo can do your best to try and talk them out of it but I'd be putting energies into obtaining major defensive capabilities and encouraging the USA to build more facilities so they have something to think about defending. Pine Gap which I believe is under USA direction might not be enough one day......

Re: China

Reply #65 –
I’m struggling to see how the rattling of sabres works in that setting. You envisage a world in which the USA won’t support us against China and no one else will either. How does the tough talk do us any good? Surely, we should arm ourselves before we try to talk tough? Jeez, no wonder why Lord Voldemort was asleep at the wheel as China secured itself a naval base in the Solomon Islands. He thought Lord Voldemort could scare China into submission. Maybe Harry Potter wasn’t big in China and he overestimated the awe in which he’d be held.

Re: China

Reply #66 –
Quote from: Mav on
Which is why we should use diplomacy to build alliances in our neighbourhood. That’s where diplomacy counts. No one suggests we can bend the Chinese to our will simply by diplomacy in a one-on-one setting. But rattling the sabres in the media won’t force the Chinese to back down either. However, rattling the sabres risks making Australia a dangerous ally to have and forces our neighbours into a binary choice: should we gravitate towards China or Australia. We can be firm but quietly spoken and that will win us more friends in our backyard. Let China be belligerent as that will drive our neighbours towards us.

What a weird view of reality you possess.  Kick the Chinese out of DRW, give it to the U.S., and arm it to the back teeth.  Either that, or let Bandt crawl his commo overlords.

 


Re: China

Reply #67 –
You’ll have to tell me what DRW is. Google is stumped.

Re: China

Reply #68 –
Quote from: Mav on
I’m struggling to see how the rattling of sabres works in that setting. You envisage a world in which the USA won’t support us against China and no one else will either. How does the tough talk do us any good? Surely, we should arm ourselves before we try to talk tough? Jeez, no wonder why Lord Voldemort was asleep at the wheel as China secured itself a naval base in the Solomon Islands. He thought Lord Voldemort could scare China into submission. Maybe Harry Potter wasn’t big in China and he overestimated the awe in which he’d be held.
How much support did Ukraine get?, apart from the West giving them arms so they could take all the risks and do NATO's work for them. As Cap says you have a strange view of the reality of the world, build alliances with who?...who has the military might to help us and have leverage against China in our neighborhood?
Could we rely on the Quad for example.....India...good luck given their economic ties with China and Russia, same country wont even condemn Russia vs Ukraine.....Japan might help us if the USA got involved but nothing guaranteed .
These same lovely people from China are the ones who tried to screw us economically when we  suggested an investigation into the origins of CoVid19 from their country. Put Tariffs on imports from Aus, tried to control the Iron Ore price, tried to get Vale back online in Brazil so they could lower the iron ore price and feck us over.
They are not our friends and if it wasnt for their reliance on our resources like Iron Ore, Coal, Rare earths etc wouldnt hesitate in fecking us over even more. Of course Indonesia supply them with about 60% of their coal so good luck relying on them to give us a hand either, maybe Penny can use her immaculate Indonesian to stop the supply to those climate change rebels in Beijing who love a good coal burning power station or two..

Re: China

Reply #69 –
You still haven’t explained how you think Australia can tame China. Everybody would wish the CCP away if we could and I would wish that just as much as you. Neo-con war hawks don’t have any monopoly on that score. But how do we turn wishes into reality? Will thoughts and prayers work?

Re: China

Reply #70 –
Quote from: Mav on
You still haven’t explained how you think Australia can tame China. Everybody would wish the CCP away if we could and I would wish that just as much as you. Neo-con war hawks don’t have any monopoly on that score. But how do we turn wishes into reality? Will thoughts and prayers work?
NATO tamed Russia by playing the same cold war games and having military strength, Putin has chanced his luck with a non NATO country that he thought was an easy target. I am not suggesting we go and try and square up with China man for man, tank for tank, rocket for rocket because for obvious reasons thats a race we cant win. I am saying just have enough of an arsenal to make life tough for any aspiring country wanting to bully us and make it not worth the effort of taunting or displaying threatening behavior with acts like we have seen.
Our main way of hurting China is economically by finding new trading partners and getting off the Chinese teat  with regards a high dependence on them buying iron ore, coal etc etc and other commodities we do well and have the best quality.
The Chinese people are good people who work hard and as we have seen integrate into other countries well but the leadership of China has one thing in mind and thats domination of their region and that wont diminish so imho we will have to live in a cold war balancing act state but not be one of the weak countries that leaves itself vulnerable.
You look at Israel and while I dont agree with everything Israel does you have to acknowledge how they exist and deal with a lot of hostile neighbors and middle east issues. No one messes with Israel because those other countries know whats coming back and how ready they are to stand up for themselves. Sure they are backed by the USA with weapons etc but they are a force in their own right and while I dont want Aus becoming a nation with national service and everyone trained in how to use a gun etc I think we can learn a bit from the likes of Israel and Ukraine how to go about shoring up our country as a deterrent...not as an aggressor but with the idea you mess with us and its going to cost you economically and in battle if you push us to the extreme.
Its going to cost money, make any Government who leans that way unpopular but if we want to protect our way of life we need to have another plan not just the diplomatic route.

Re: China

Reply #71 –
Surely the last decade of conservative rule has left us with an impressive military. Or did it just concentrate on car parks and small government?

Re: China

Reply #72 –
Quote from: Mav on
Surely the last decade of conservative rule has left us with an impressive military. Or did it just concentrate on car parks and small government?
More needs to be spent to modernize our military in the areas where we have early warning and better air coverage imo. Romania a NATO country had two missiles which were never identified either Russian or misfired Ukranian that entered their airspace and we're not detected until they were well into the country.
Their old Jets couldnt be scrambled in time and the missiles luckily didn't do any damage. We don't want similar here, defense hasn't been a priority for a long while on the basis that the USA will hold our hand and have our back.
Taiwan will be the test if the USA can be relied upon but I'd rather we show some more initiative and prepare early.

Re: China

Reply #73 –
So, because the LNP thought they were protected by the US so all they had to do was talk tough, it falls to Labor to do all the hard work and find the money? I'm thinking this is a bit like the Libs in Victoria committing $50b to the East-West Link on the eve of an election and imposing penalties for cancellation in the hope it would stuff up Labor's priorities.

We've recently discovered that a sharp increase in gas prices that ordinarily should have been revealed on 1 May was mysteriously delayed until after the election and just as mysteriously the RBA has just realised it needs to make serial interest rate rises. And now, without saying flatly that the LNP dropped the ball, you say that Labor needs to massively increase military expenditure to such a point it will become unpopular. Pardon me if I'm a bit cynical about your viewpoint that diplomacy is useless and a massive military buildup is the only way.

Re: China

Reply #74 –
Quote from: Mav on
Maybe I should just insinuate he’d bullied someone to death. That sort of despicable behaviour doesn’t seem to be off limits, does it Thry?

I dont think thats any better.


You might want to leave that argument with whom you were having it, because fundamentally you don't know how correct or incorrect it is, and irrespective of what you believe about a person, often the way you treat someone reflects more on you than it does them.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson