http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2018-03-20/club-statement-damien-keeping
The Club and AFLW senior coach Damien Keeping have parted ways by mutual agreement.
We wish to thank Damien for his contribution during his tenure at the Blues.
After some of the insipid performances this season, a change was not improbable.
Particularly as Keeping appeared to have considerable help problems this season.
I hope we can search well and find a coach who can fix the structural issues we have, and a new recruitment guru, like Stephen Silvagni, who can bring in the talent that we need.
Thank you to Damien Keeping. We appreciate your efforts. But now we need to move on towards the Premiership.
As we suspected, all was not rosy behind the scenes.
Next.
As we suspected, all was not rosy behind the scenes.
Next.
There had to be something that took us from one end of the ladder to the other. Disharmony is death.
I think Keeping's health might have played a big part of it, he seemed quite liked by the players.
But when that Arnell selection stuff surfaced, something had to be going on behind the scenes.
Not sure who they get to coach, there are not that many experienced AFLW type coaches on the menu!
I think Keeping's health might have played a big part of it, he seemed quite liked by the players.
But when that Arnell selection stuff surfaced, something had to be going on behind the scenes.
Not sure who they get to coach, there are not that many experienced AFLW type coaches on the menu!
I won't be disappointed if we appoint someone who has coached the guys, rather than the girls. There is a lot of learning our players require.
I am not sure about Lauren Arnell's playing future, she really struggled this year. But I would be getting her involved as an assistant coach ASAP. She has an enormous reputation in the VFLW. Harnessing some of that would be excellent, no matter who ends up being head coach.
I think Keeping's health might have played a big part of it, he seemed quite liked by the players.
But when that Arnell selection stuff surfaced, something had to be going on behind the scenes.
Not sure who they get to coach, there are not that many experienced AFLW type coaches on the menu!
I think that's right LP; the players were full of praise for Keeping and I suspect that his ill health unsettled the team.
I'd like to see us appoint a female AFLW coach ... but I wouldn't be disappointed if Dennis Armfield returned to the AFLW panel.
Our games were unwatchable, he had to go.
And the Captain wants out too..... ???
As far as recruitment, how about SOS and his crew.
AFLW all takes place in the AFL off-season anyway and I bet he watches it all anyway.
I think that's right LP; the players were full of praise for Keeping and I suspect that his ill health unsettled the team.
I'd like to see us appoint a female AFLW coach ... but I wouldn't be disappointed if Dennis Armfield returned to the AFLW panel.
I think that's been very generous.
They were a schmozzle from the get go. The wins they achieved were by default, nothing else....
Averaging 24 points a match is hardly noteworthy!
I think that's been very generous.
They were a schmozzle from the get go. The wins they achieved were by default, nothing else....
Averaging 24 points a match is hardly noteworthy!
Agree... I think if his health was an issue he wouldn't be 'exploring other (footy) options', he'd be stepping down for health reasons or similar.
Players always speak highly of their coach... publicly.
The AFL's intervention re changing from a defensive style didn't help either (aimed squarely at us), we had no plan B. (as an aside, I agree 100% with Caro re the timing of the AFLs intervention - amateur hour stuff.)
Schmozzle is an accurate summary of our AFLW side this year... the gals deserved much better, and they are better than their on-field stuff demonstrated.
Averaging 24 points a match is hardly noteworthy!
The AFL's intervention re changing from a defensive style didn't help either (aimed squarely at us), we had no plan B. (as an aside, I agree 100% with Caro re the timing of the AFLs intervention - amateur hour stuff.)
I'm not sure what the right amount of points per match will be for the AFLW.
Given other sports on much smaller surfaces have statistically significant scoring differentials based on gender I suspect scores significantly lower in the AFLW than AFL will be normal.
I'm not sure it needs to much analysis, it could be simply because the girls take more disposals and time to move the ball the same distance which widens the chance of an error. Subjectively, from basketball to AFL there seems to be sliding scale relative to men, with average reductions in scoring across all womens competitions for each sport, differences that widen as field size increases. If there were more men's netball competitions it would be interesting to see if the pattern holds. For basketball I think it's about 15%, soccer 25% and AFL it looks to be as much as 50%.
I don't know enough about hockey or other field sports that have competitions for both genders to judge, but I suspect competition wide averages will follow the same pattern whether it be lacrosse, water polo, polo, etc., etc..
I do find it can be hard to differentiate though, because often one women's team will be heavily dominant and score far more than the others skewing averages. I'm sure someone expert is statistics would have ways to compensate for this.
So if there is an expectation for AFLW to score like AFL it is misplaced, I'm sure it will get better but the differential will always apply while they play under the generally same rules. So change the rules, don't have then coached to play the male style game, perhaps the AFL and the AFLW coaches need to think a little deeper!
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/womens-afl/exclusive-carlton-aflw-captain-brianna-davey-wants-out-of-the-blues/news-story/60ff7e5798cb56c50b0ae61d653edac6 (https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/womens-afl/exclusive-carlton-aflw-captain-brianna-davey-wants-out-of-the-blues/news-story/60ff7e5798cb56c50b0ae61d653edac6)
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/womens-afl/exclusive-carlton-aflw-captain-brianna-davey-wants-out-of-the-blues/news-story/60ff7e5798cb56c50b0ae61d653edac6 (https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/womens-afl/exclusive-carlton-aflw-captain-brianna-davey-wants-out-of-the-blues/news-story/60ff7e5798cb56c50b0ae61d653edac6)
So, Brianna wants out.
Not a good sign at all. :(
This is worrying from a different perspective.
We all believe our club has turned the corner, yet the AFL womens are showing just how far we still have to go as a footy club.
Damien Keeping was considered a real coup when we got him.
Chocolates to boiled lollies over 2 seasons, in which we also believed the List manager was a problem and had to go??
Now the captain wants out only 8 matches (of which she only played 3!!!!) at the end of the season??
THE FISH ROTS AT THE HEAD.
This club looked capable of doing so much more, and we are taking a broom through here.
On paper we looked as good as anyone so the list manger wasn't the problem.
Our game plan was crap and that usually comes down to coaching. Obviously Davey liked the coach (who made her captain).
This is worrying from a different perspective.
We all believe our club has turned the corner, yet the AFL womens are showing just how far we still have to go as a footy club.
Damien Keeping was considered a real coup when we got him.
Chocolates to boiled lollies over 2 seasons, in which we also believed the List manager was a problem and had to go??
Now the captain wants out only 8 matches (of which she only played 3!!!!) at the end of the season??
THE FISH ROTS AT THE HEAD.
This club looked capable of doing so much more, and we are taking a broom through here.
I read on a FB forum that the Captain has her Club 'gifted' car taken off her at some point? Any one know anything about this?
http://girlsplayfooty.com/2018/03/carltons-poor-management-threatens-aflw-existence.html
he Carlton Blues have been architects of their own AFLW downfall from day one, but it has all come to a head in the past 12 months.
Poor list management and atrocious player communication has resulted in the Blues being in their current position: wooden spooners without a coach, without a list manager, and without a hope for the near future.
To cap things off, reports have emerged that the Blues’ nucleus in Brianna Davey is seeking a way out of the club, which is not a reaction to Carlton’s horrible season on the field but the politics off of it.
It is also suggested that Davey’s potential departure may lead to an exodus of players who are unhappy with their current roles in the team and the management of the women’s side, which has been set up to fail from the get-go.
Some clubs are fit to host women’s teams, others are not. Carlton has proved that it is not. This is why.
Let’s start with the on-field and list management issues that saw Carlton become uncompetitive in 2018.
The Blues’ issues go right back to October of 2016, which marked the first AFLW Draft.
Carlton bottled it badly, and that is not an observation that comes solely with the benefit of hindsight.
With defender Brianna Davey, half-forward Lauren Arnell and mid-sized forward Darcy Vescio already locked in, the Blues targeted players from lesser clubs with their early draft selections rather than players with a reputation of being consistent performers.
Pick three was used to select Bianca Jakobsson, who was coming off a decent year as a forward. Jaimee Lambert, Elise O’Dea and Stephanie Chiocci, all players with brilliant reputations, were selected before the Blues’ next pick.
With pick 14, the Blues selected Katherine Gillespie-Jones, who has proved to be the biggest 2016 draft flop of all.
Her selection was followed up with Gillespie-Jones’ Seaford teammate in Sarah Hosking. It’s worth mentioning that Seaford finished seventh in the VFL Women’s competition out of 10 teams, with the bottom two teams being booted from the competition at the end of the season.
The Blues selected 16 more players in that draft. Their only genuine, experienced midfielder was Katie Loynes taken with pick 115.
What the Blues had managed to do was assemble a team of very good role players while the likes of Alicia Eva, Lily Mithen, Jess Duffin, Jasmine Garner, Hannah Scott, Sarah D’Arcy, Richelle Cranston, Lauren Pearce and Brittany Bonnici – just to name those who come to mind – were all left for other clubs to freely snap up.
In season 2017, the Blues were able to paper over the cracks in the list due to the performances of a few individuals.
As an added bonus, they were even able to remain in the Grand Final hunt for most of the year thanks to the forward efficiency of Darcy Vescio and the spectacular defending of Brianna Davey and Danielle Hardiman.
As bad as the initial draft was, the end of any semblance of a balanced list would be tossed out the window when the Sign/Trade Period began following the 2017 season.
It was well documented that Carlton’s major issue in 2017 was its midfield, with a lack of star power making it difficult for the forwards to get much use and the defence having to work overtime to keep the side in matches.
But instead of targeting a star midfielder or two, the Blues traded away their first three draft picks for another defender in Nicola Stevens, and traded away two very handy players in midfielder Nat Exon and future star Isabella Ayre to Brisbane for a billboard player in Tayla Harris, who was seeking an avenue to Melbourne in order to advance her boxing career.
The great irony in that trade is that Exon alone has received more media time than Harris in 2018.
To make matters worse, the Blues were forced to delist Jordan Ivey, a top-up player who had become one of Carlton’s best players in the back half of the season, further diluting the midfield talent.
With their four picks in the 2017 AFLW Draft, the Blues only selected one midfielder.
Yet somehow, the performance of the Blues in 2017 had both the bookies and many tipsters fooled. Some had Carlton as certainties to go all the way despite having the most unbalanced list in the competition, and being the only club without a single star midfielder.
The key to Carlton’s success in 2017 was Davey. She worked tirelessly in the back half, and it almost looked like she was going to drag Carlton to another decent season in 2018 before she was sidelined with an ACL injury.
Then Carlton’s list was exposed. With no Davey to stop attacks, teams racked up scores. The Blues lost their remaining five games of the season by a combined total of 176 points, conceding 297 points and kicking a piddly 121 of their own. On four of those five occasions, the Blues couldn’t even top 22 points.
It’s no good having a good forward line if the ball hardly gets there. Not to mention teams had a whole off-season to figure out how to curtail Vescio’s influence, and Harris is hardly renowned for her ability to hit the scoreboard.
In that time, the Blues even thought it would be smart to drop Lauren Arnell, a sensational half-forward forced to play an inside midfielder role and punished when it didn’t work out.
While we widely reference the players on Carlton’s list as ‘role players’ – particularly the midfield core – it is not intended as an insult.
Shae Audley, Lauren Brazzale, Gabriella Pound, Tilly Lucas-Rodd and Lauren Arnell are all proven performers in teams where they are able to play to their strengths, and would be outright stars of this competition if they weren’t being forced into midfield battles that they are not equipped to win.
The writing was on the wall. List manager Graham Burgen jumped ship in the middle of the season, and his exit was followed by head coach Damien Keeping after the Blues confirmed their position as 2018 wooden spooners.
The Blues now have no coach, a list that is in tatters, and no access to decent draft picks due to the incoming Geelong and North Melbourne teams next year.
Off the field, the Blues have become renowned for their poor communication with AFLW players in just two short seasons.
As we have reported earlier in the season, Carlton is guilty of offering players the world and failing to deliver, and also being unable to communicate with the playing list in a manner that would be considered acceptable.
It’s no secret that additional incentives are used to lure good players in the men’s game, but the Blues are guilty of doing the same with its AFLW players, too, a dangerous practice if the club does not follow through when you consider the current players are already working for peanuts.
Upon signing their marquee contracts, Brianna Davey and Darcy Vescio were given employment at the club. That’s all well and good.
However, there have been a number of reports from Blues AFLW players past and present stating that they have been offered incentives, from advanced opportunities in the team to club-related work, that have never come to fruition.
Additionally, the club uses its ongoing sponsorship with Hyundai to offer cars to star players, and a dispute over Carlton taking a car off a player for a nonsensical reason is still being resolved.
We were also made aware of multiple players being forced into uncertainty about their futures when it came time to make list management decisions last year.
In one such case, a player under the age of 20 was told with great confidence that she would be retained, only to be delisted over the phone two days before the end of the AFLW Sign/Trade Period with no reason cited.
Add to that the ridiculous dispute over Arnell’s selection, and it paints a pretty poor picture of Carlton on the communication front.
The worst news of all is that there is no end in sight for Carlton’s self-inflicted suffering, as the club has no obvious experienced coaching candidates to choose from.
The Blues have to find someone who will be able to immediately sort out the unbalanced mess of a playing list, as well as get the best out of whoever is left when all is said and done.
With four new Victorian teams entering the AFLW over the next two seasons, it does not bode well for Carlton’s AFLW existence.
Considering this is all happening on the AFL’s dime, perhaps it’s time a league representative steps in and asks some important questions.
No doubt there will be a major review of what appears to be a massive cock-up by many here....
Well, that cheered me up no end.
Have we taken on more than we can digest here? Looks like it. I would like to see all the focus on the seniors personally, let's get back on track there asap! We can do without this kind of distraction.
At least now we know why the girls looked as flat as a stack of pancakes after first couple of games.
And it's things like this that have me worried whether the New Carlton is in fact really new, or is it just papering over the cracks ? This is so unprofessional, it's embarrassing. The girls have been treated pretty badly.
At least now we know why the girls looked as flat as a stack of pancakes after first couple of games.
And it's things like this that have me worried whether the New Carlton is in fact really new, or is it just papering over the cracks ? This is so unprofessional, it's embarrassing. The girls have been treated pretty badly.
That article is 'one side' of the story.... watch this space!
At least now we know why the girls looked as flat as a stack of pancakes after first couple of games.
And it's things like this that have me worried whether the New Carlton is in fact really new, or is it just papering over the cracks ? This is so unprofessional, it's embarrassing. The girls have been treated pretty badly.
.
Well if we can't do it professionally we shouldn't be doing it until we can do so. It's not fair on the people involved and it rekindles all the doubts about the club. Under-hype and over-deliver, NOT the other way round.
What a right royal FU.
That article is 'one side' of the story.... watch this space!
Yes, no doubt as always there's at least 2 sides. But based on external appearances, what is written sounds pretty plausible IMO.
Well, that cheered me up no end.
It's really bizarre because marketing wise our club has done a fantastic job. From the outside it looked like we were leading the way for women's football.
It's really bizarre because marketing wise our club has done a fantastic job. From the outside it looked like we were leading the way for women's football.
Yes, I agree. It was either a cynical marketing exercise from the get go, or else the club started with genuine good intensions but just had no idea what they were doing.
Either way, the girls and the public (especially the girls) deserve much better. This has all the makings of a PR disaster.
It's really bizarre because marketing wise our club has done a fantastic job. From the outside it looked like we were leading the way for women's football.
That's called "over hyping and under delivering". Words are easy, actions more difficult.
Yes, I agree. It was either a cynical marketing exercise from the get go, or else the club started with genuine good intensions but just had no idea what they were doing.
Either way, the girls and the public (especially the girls) deserve much better. This has all the makings of a PR disaster.
That's what the road to hell is paved with isn't it?
It's really bizarre because marketing wise our club has done a fantastic job. From the outside it looked like we were leading the way for women's football.
Good pick-up.
In relation to our 'blokes' side, until recent times that's been a feature of our club... v. good marketing dept, then we fell away badly in other areas (Board/on-field). And there's nothing worse than over promising and under delivering. I like the balance we've struck now between marketing (a necessary evil ;) ) and the rest of the club. Now for some more on-field success and maybe tweak the Board. As for the gals, maybe time to tear it down and start again and for some within the creation of our AFLW side to have a long hard look at themselves in the full-length mirror.
@Baggers
Baggers, excellent marketing combined with abysmal delivery is a very toxic cocktail.
That article is 'one side' of the story.... watch this space!
Anything you can elaborate on Flyboy?
Gotta say I'm pretty gutted by what's come out in the past 24 hours. If we lose Davey, it's probably the equivalent of losing Cripps, Charlie Curnow, Weitering, Kreuzer and Paddy Dow. With the infancy of the league and the new teams coming in, Bri is irreplaceable. She is arguably the best player in the comp and still young. She's going to dominate over the next 6-7 years. The women's draft is much like the men's was when it first started; very hit and miss. The depth of talent in the available player pool will be shallow for probably the next decade, so it's paramount that we hold onto our best players. Liddle needs to step in and request an overhaul of the entire women's football department and major crisis control needs to occur to get these women back on board.
Bri is irreplaceable.
No one is irreplaceable...
It takes two - or more - to tango remember... ;)
@Baggers
Baggers, excellent marketing combined with abysmal delivery is a very toxic cocktail.
You bet. Destroys trust and credibility.
That's what the road to hell is paved with isn't it?
Yes, apparently so. As a small aside, I've always found that phrase to be pretty hopeless at communicating its intended meaning. There's an alternative one which is much better : "hell is full of good intentions, heaven is full of good works."
Yes, apparently so. As a small aside, I've always found that phrase to be pretty hopeless at communicating its intended meaning. There's an alternative one which is much better : "hell is full of good intentions, heaven is full of good works."
Take your pick Paul, either way it's a right royal f--k up.
Well, there goes our future then.
I'd like to be bitter at Davey for wanting out but if half of the stuff being said turns out to be true I can't blame her. I just hope can stop a mass exodus.
I know both exon and ayre are very bitter towards the club so it's not an isolated case unfortunately.
Sad day for Carlton today, hope we don't get flogged tomorrow night as it could be a long year.
Everyone, I'm extremely disappointed about this.
The AFL W seemed to be echoing what we were doing for the AFL men as well.
We ticked off on the coach. we ticked off on the playing list manager, and the list with it, and seemed to be doing the "whole of club" approach to getting comfortable being uncomfortable and all the buzz words associated with it.
This stinks, and it stinks to high heaven.
Now that the house of cards has fallen over in AFL W, is it going to be a matter of time before it happens to the mens??
Now all that aside, that news article is scathing about our footy club, the unfortunate scenario being that we have no right of reply and even if we did, it would be dismissed for the laughing stock that it is.
Take your pick Paul, either way it's a right royal f--k up.
Yes, quite true. A terrible situation 24 hours away from the season opener.
I'd get SOS onboard to do a list review, map out a plan, get him to head up the panel and choose a new list manager and start again...
D. Armfield as the new coach....
I'd get SOS onboard to do a list review, map out a plan, get him to head up the panel and choose a new list manager and start again...
D. Armfield as the new coach....
Would love him back in the coaching team, but not as head coach. Need someone who has been a head coach before. I'd be seriously trying to get Shaun Smith from Richmond. Only signed up as the AC for their women's team earlier this year, but might be enticed by a the head coach role. He did an awesome job when he was in charge of the St Kilda Sharks, and given Bri Davey's history with that club, he might be enough to keep her (and others) on board.
I've heard that after the AFLW finals the AFL are going to announce some changes to the competition rules for 2019. I've no idea what they might be, I've just been warned to stay tuned. There have been some alleged meetings between the stakeholders as recently as this week.
So I wouldn't be surprised to hear little from the club until after that announcement.
Interesting read. Must've taken some of the old previously Carlton admins...lol.
http://girlsplayfooty.com/2018/03/carltons-poor-management-threatens-aflw-existence.html
Interesting read. Must've taken some of the old previously Carlton admins...lol.
http://girlsplayfooty.com/2018/03/carltons-poor-management-threatens-aflw-existence.html
Already posted by MBB laj.
There are clearly some issues around the list... but we were competitive last year, and won our first 2 games this year.
Then it all went to sh1t after Davey got injured... but at that point, our list wasn’t looking completely hopeless. Take the star player out of the AFLW teams and it makes a huge difference (although we have fallen off a cliff).
New coach, new game plan, get some new players in... I’m not saying we haven’t had issues, but the article/blog is way over the top.
As for players getting upset or Davey wanting out - if that’s the case (and we should remember it is speculation)... then we should be trading them out pretty quickly.
Also need to keep in mind the AFLW was thrown together quickly... teething issues around communication and structure would be expected.
Bear, those teething issues seem to be mainly affecting us. In fact, to all outward appearances, we are the only club that has fallen in heap. That's the big worry for mine.
Get a very successful local football coach.
Not a successful local women's coach, but if they want someone who has been success at a level below AFL, look in that direction.
Bear, those teething issues seem to be mainly affecting us. In fact, to all outward appearances, we are the only club that has fallen in heap. That's the big worry for mine.
There are clearly some issues... i’m not denying that. Some key people have been moved on.
Need to be careful about no-name websites writing “articles” that contain a lot of rumours... and saying that our existence is threatened, or the AFL should step in is a massive call.
Especially when you click on the author’s name, and he looks like a 15 year old who has been smoking bongs while listening to some early Metallica records on high rotation.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.
There are clearly some issues... i’m not denying that. Some key people have been moved on.
Need to be careful about no-name websites writing “articles” that contain a lot of rumours... and saying that our existence is threatened, or the AFL should step in is a massive call.
Especially when you click on the author’s name, and he looks like a 15 year old who has been smoking bongs while listening to some early Metallica records on high rotation.
Yes, I reckon it's a beat up by an anti-Carlton flog.
Yes, I reckon it's a beat up by an anti-Carlton flog.
Beat up?
Our list manager is gone.
Our coach is gone.
Our captain wants out....and others expected to go too. I suspect Tilly Lucas-Rodd would be next in line.
Not sure how much is being beaten up.
Whether the rumoured problems in the article are true or not, its clear that there are some problems. So if there are problems, why make up 'other' ones when you can report the actual ones?
Beat up?
Our list manager is gone.
Our coach is gone.
Our captain wants out....and others expected to go too. I suspect Tilly Lucas-Rodd would be next in line.
..............................................
I agree, and add to that extremely disheartening on field performances.
There are clearly some issues... i’m not denying that. Some key people have been moved on.
Need to be careful about no-name websites writing “articles” that contain a lot of rumours... and saying that our existence is threatened, or the AFL should step in is a massive call.
Especially when you click on the author’s name, and he looks like a 15 year old who has been smoking bongs while listening to some early Metallica records on high rotation.
Well, that may well be true, but the external signs look extremely concerning.
Especially when you click on the author’s name, and he looks like a 15 year old who has been smoking bongs while listening to some early Metallica records on high rotation.
i like it!