Five rounds in and I’m feeling a bit disappointed. In part it’s because I was expecting the team to build on last year’s efforts, but it seems they’ve decided to strip things back even further before starting to put it all back together.
I understand the approach that’s being taken and that any success coming from it will take time….but that doesn’t stop me from wondering about a few things.
You see… nothing is guaranteed in football.
So comments like … “Give them time and we’ll reap the benefits!” …”Wait until they’ve played 50 games together and see how good they’ll be!” don’t mean a lot to me. They’re just optimistic guesses.
The reality is that this time we’re trying a different approach to the past. Whether it’s a successful approach is yet to be determined. So while we wait to see the outcome it’s quite legitimate to keep asking questions and judge performances… as we see them at the time.
Here are some of the things that I’m not sure about just at the moment….and the reality is anyone trying to answer some them is just expressing a “gut” guess... but by all means have a stab! We’ll have to wait a season or probably longer for the answers. Some will remain a mystery.
Q1-What did Bolton really think going into this last game? Did he expect the possibility of a 100 point thrashing or did he expect the kids to put on a bit of a show?
Q2-Has that result influenced the selection process for upcoming games?
Q3-No doubt youngsters will benefit from game time… but is that more beneficial when you’re surrounded by more experienced players?
Q4-What do the senior players feel about being surrounded by such a young group? How do they feel about carrying an extra burden with the knowledge that they may not be around to taste any success?
Q5-How do experienced fringe players feel about being passed over for selection to get games into kids? The message for these guys is “You’re finished!”…how does that affect team dynamics? They may not be the future but they are the “here and now” and as such can be a positive or a negative influence depending on how they’re managed.
Q6-Despite comments to the contrary, wins don’t seem to be important at the moment and it’s all about development. But how long can folk hold the faith while that process occurs?
Q7-How good a match day and tactical coach is Bolton. He has wraps on him as a developer of character. What’s he like as a developer of footballers.
Q8-Are we asking too much of Weitering and Cripps…both appear to be hampered by injuries that aren’t serious enough to stop them from playing but what’s the mental toll of continuing to push the injured body?
Q9-We’ve seen some “flashes of brilliance” by a few of the young fellows (e.g.Fisher’s goal) but does that necessarily indicate a champ in the making? I remember a “weave and dodge” from Boekhorst in one of his early games that had us a bit excited, but nothing much has come of that….yet. These guys will develop at different rates. Some won’t meet expectations others will exceed them.
Q10-Can we hold the group together? Players like Cripps and Weitering, should they continue their development, will attract decent offers down the track. Will we be at a stage where some of the burden has been shouldered by others and they’re happy to stay?
Some of these will impact in the short term, others are longer term considerations but they do indicate that the rebuild process is a little more complicated than just “Wait a couple of years and everything will be fine.”
Q1-What did Bolton really think going into this last game? Did he expect a 100 point thrashing or did he expect the kids to put on a bit of a show? A thrashing. He explained that this was the ONLY Friday night game for the year and was too good an opportunity to miss out on for those teenagers.
Q2-Has that result influenced the selection process for upcoming games? I hope not. I doubt it.
Q3-No doubt youngsters will benefit from game time… but is that more beneficial when you’re surrounded by more experienced players?Most of our experienced players weren't up to it and were moved on. GWS provides a good example of where we're headed.
Q4-What do the senior players feel about being surrounded by such a young group? How do they feel about carrying an extra burden with the knowledge that they may not be around to taste any success? This is professional football and that is what they're paid to do. Only 22 players out of 750 listed players in the AFL can be premiers in any one season. Some miss out.
Q5-How do experienced fringe players feel about being passed over for selection to get games into kids? The message for these guys is “You’re finished!”…how does that affect team dynamics? They may not be the future but they are the “here and now” and as such can be a positive or a negative influence depending on how they’re managed.Games are given based on merit. Nobody has a given right to play. You must earn it.
Q6-Despite comments to the contrary, wins don’t seem to be important at the moment and it’s all about development. But how long can folk hold the faith while that process occurs? Those that are true supporters will hang on as long as necessary. Hopefully, success will be sooner, rather than later.
Q7-How good a match day and tactical coach is Bolton. He has wraps on him as a developer of character. What’s he like as a developer of footballers.That's what assistant coaches are there for. Also, Bolts has a mentor that he can bounce ideas off. I don't think our lack of recent success has anything to do with game style or planning.
Q8-Are we asking too much of Weitering and Cripps…both appear to be hampered by injuries that aren’t serious enough to stop them from playing but what’s the mental toll of continuing to push the injured body?The mantra has been to endure through adversity. These guys are leading by example. They will be managed through these niggles. We have a 9 day break this time around.
Q9-We’ve seen some “flashes of brilliance” by a few of the young fellows (e.g.Fisher’s goal) but does that necessarily indicate a champ in the making? I remember a “weave and dodge” from Boekhorst in one of his early games that had us a bit excited, but nothing much has come of that….yet. These guys will develop at different rates. Some won’t meet expectations others will exceed them. And...that is football. The coaches will do everything possible to get these guys playing good, football consistently.
Q10-Can we hold the group together? Players like Cripps and Weitering, should they continue their development, will attract decent offers down the track. Will we be at a stage where some of the burden has been shouldered by others and they’re happy to stay?That's the plan. I'M sure they and their managers can see that. The guys love playing under Bolton.
1. Judging by his presser, I think he was caught off guard, and a little surprised by the result.
2. Depends on whether they think the selection process is right. If so, then it depends on whether Bolton and Co have real coglioni, whether the club is really united, as to whether they will continue with this course, and expect floggings. If they realize they erred, then a change needs to occur.
3. Yes.
4. Depends on their character, history at the club etc. Some will be pissed, some will soldier on and do what they always do.
5. See 4 above.
6. depends on the person - a lot depends on whether or not you believe in the current regime. Some want instant results, some will believe that poor results don't alter the fact that the club is on the right path. Some people also have greater footy knowledge, and may be able to see the less obvious improvements that others cannot.
7. This is an important question for mine. IMO, he has a fair bit to learn. When I heard about the impromptu training session where kids could play kick to kick with the players a week or two ago, on the one hand I thought it was a lovely gesture, on the other it worried me a little because it seemed a little like a publicity stunt that should not really be the concern of the coach. I don't know whether he was directly responsible, but it had his fingerprints all over it IMO. I also wonder whether his interview(s) for the coaching job were filled with the sorts of answers that the panel wanted to hear, as opposed to a "pure" football person. Did they select him because he is very good at interviews ? I wonder.
8. Yes.
9. No one can answer that. I'm sure plenty of great players have stunk it up in their first few games. Admittedly, I can't think of any.
10. Success is best glue available in any team sport.
Great questions Lods and you're right, most cant be answered just yet. But here is my take away from the whole situation:
- W.r.t. to older blokes, I would have thought they would have been told straight that the first priority is the kids and their development. I would have the thought they would have been told they are playing an important but support role.
There are two key figures leading the two main departments which control our fate, BB and SOS.
- BB comes from a system that has achieved the ultimate success 4 times out of the last 9 and made it to the big dance 4 of the last 5. So he knows what it takes and is a teacher young men so all the ingredients are there with him. He has surrounded himself with good blend of young and experienced assistants also from successful systems.
- SOS has built a list a GWS which is starting to reap rewards now. Yes they had concessions but talent/need identification is his strength (so I have been told) and he seems to be nutting and solving the problems with our list (together with BB).
So whilst there a many questions ATM which we cant answer, In my mind, the two gentlemen I have mentioned above could an answer them if you had them both in a room. Now that wont happen so we just need to have some faith. The other thing that gives me confidence is that they are doing things like never before done at Carlton for as long as I can remember.
9. No one can answer that. I'm sure plenty of great players have stunk it up in their first few games. Admittedly, I can't think of any.
Kade Simpson ;)
Lods what you are asking really is applicable widely to AFL football and to clubs striving for success. OK, we got ourselves into a bad place and things are tougher from where we are.
Our only option really is to claw our way back to success following a carefully constructed plan that covers all aspects and eventualities that can possibly be thought of and planned for. We just have to hope that we have the right people in the club who are capable of doing this planning and execution. I don't think we have been presented yet with any concrete evidence that this is not the case so we just have to be patient for now. As with life in general, nothing is guaranteed.
Kade Simpson ;)
There you go - right under my nose.
My intention wasn't to come across as too critical or negative.
I don't know the answers...I'm hoping those in charge at the club have a good handle on some of these.
They're just some things that I'm wondering about Round 5 2017.
There you go - right under my nose.
In fairness to Simmo, back when he started in 2003 it was common for the 4th interchange player to be barely used and maybe only get a handful of minutes late in a game. It wasn't the heavy rotations like there are now.
In fairness to Simmo, back when he started in 2003 it was common for the 4th interchange player to be barely used and maybe only get a handful of minutes late in a game. It wasn't the heavy rotations like there are now.
I guess so. At any rate, we all know the old cliche - It's not where you start etc.
I guess so. At any rate, we all know the old cliche - It's not where you start etc.
True, but I have to concede we all need help, and that where you end can depend on the action of others.
Five rounds in, and we are exactly where I expected to be.
I know some people deluded themselves somewhat and expected positive results and perhaps a surprise finals berth, but the reality is that was provided best case scenarios occurred.
That being said the bottom spots on the ladder are reserved for teams where the wheels have completely fallen off. That could still happen to us, but I doubt it. Looks like that will be freo, North, hawthorn or Sydney at this stage.
Kade Simpson ;)
From the past - Kouta. Maclure. Justin Madden. Doull (spent 2 years in the reserves).
Recently - Fevola. Betts. Kennedy. Cripps.
Fevola - 62 disposals in his first 10 games. 13 goals.
Silvagni, J. - 100 disposals. 9 goals.
Check this site.
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/J/Justin_Madden.html
You can get any player's stats from every game he has played in order. You will soon see that it takes at least 2-3 years for most (there are some exceptions) 18-19 year olds to develop into established players.
Something else to think about.
The selection process of players in form or not to get a gig at AFL level has no bearing on how well they will perform the following week, and also whether or not they're ready.
You can do everything right and still stink it up next week. That's simply where our kids are at. Half of them would never have experienced Friday night footy in a stadium like that one. There are many reasons why things happen sometimes but its important that we don't judge a decision made with the benefit of hindsight.
A worry for me Thry is the message from the club and coach is that they expect to win games.
Yet it's pretty clear you cannot take so many 1st year kids into a game like that and expect to win!
Play to win of course, I expect them to play to win in every game.
Expect them to win, no!
Select to win......?
Select to develop......, I'm not sure?
A worry for me Thry is the message from the club and coach is that they expect to win games.
Yet it's pretty clear you cannot take so many 1st year kids into a game like that and expect to win!
Play to win of course, I expect them to play to win in every game.
Expect them to win, no!
Select to win......?
Select to develop......, I'm not sure?
I think you're misinterpreting what the coach says. Here are some real quotes to digest.
"It was one that got away ... (we're) disappointed (and) frustrated," Bolton said.
"We have a high expectation of this group even though they're young.
"We know they're developing, we know they're learning but we got ourselves in a position at three-quarter time to win a game and some errors really hurt us.
"It's a really good learning opportunity but ... (we're) really frustrated that we didn't get a result."
I think you're misinterpreting what the coach says. Here are some real quotes to digest.
"It was one that got away ... (we're) disappointed (and) frustrated," Bolton said.
"We have a high expectation of this group even though they're young.
"We know they're developing, we know they're learning but we got ourselves in a position at three-quarter time to win a game and some errors really hurt us.
"It's a really good learning opportunity but ... (we're) really frustrated that we didn't get a result."
It's difficult to know exactly what he or the club are thinking because those answers are what he is supposed to say. He can hardly tell the world that we're not interested in winning, which is why we're playing the kids.
He says a few contradictory things e.g "we won't be defined by wins and losses".
It's difficult to know exactly what he or the club are thinking because those answers are what he is supposed to say. He can hardly tell the world that we're not interested in winning, which is why we're playing the kids.
He says a few contradictory things e.g "we won't be defined by wins and losses".
Well Paul, it does seem to me BB is towing the company line, I hope the people making the call on his career are in direct support and contact with him, because BB would be in a world of hurt at 99 out of 100 footy clubs after an effort like that!
Compare this weekends result and media to the heat Ratts took in the final stages of his caretaker season!
Let's hope our club has changed, because if it hasn't I have some very grave concerns!
Bolton revealed over the weekend that he had three separate phone calls of support from the Pres, CEO and SOS. All encouraged him to stick with the plan.
No, we will not be defined by wins and losses, and if the opportunity to win a game is there, we take it. Is there anything more to explain?
Bolton revealed over the weekend that he had three separate phone calls of support from the Pres, CEO and SOS. All encouraged him to stick with the plan.
No, we will not be defined by wins and losses, and if the opportunity to win a game is there, we take it. Is there anything more to explain?
That's all very well, but it sounds like a "have your cake and eat it" approach.
Bolton revealed over the weekend that he had three separate phone calls of support from the Pres, CEO and SOS. All encouraged him to stick with the plan.
No, we will not be defined by wins and losses, and if the opportunity to win a game is there, we take it. Is there anything more to explain?
Its when the board say you have their full support you want to start worrying..... :-X
Its when the board say you have their full support you want to start worrying..... :-X
It's noticeable EB that there are no public statements coming from anywhere/anyone but BB - or have I missed them?
Its when the board say you have their full support you want to start worrying..... :-X
Only when the board say that to the media are you in strife.
Until then you are good.
At that point you're a dead man walking because the public don't believe it anymore.
It's noticeable EB that there are no public statements coming from anywhere/anyone but BB - or have I missed them?
No. As I stated, these days they are doing things that are very un-Carlton like. A Board that can STFU is a very good start.
It's noticeable EB that there are no public statements coming from anywhere/anyone but BB - or have I missed them?
No Cookie, have not seen or heard any comment from any other Carlton official....its all green shoots and sprouts from the coach only.... ;)
My intention wasn't to come across as too critical or negative.
Bahahaha. From someone who was considered very negative and critical i refer you to the optimist vs realist vs pessimist debate.
It's all relative.
I can't say i'm happy to be justified by my comments referring to where we are really at, as ultimately it means we are failing to rise up the ladder. However, it is good for my frame of mind. I'm not insane! ;D
A few people are taking a bit of a reality check of late and it is a bit of a shock to the system. I wonder how many others have had similar changes of heart?
Q1-What did Bolton really think going into this last game? Did he expect the possibility of a 100 point thrashing or did he expect the kids to put on a bit of a show?
I'm sure he'd hoped we'd put in a gutsy effort with a team of blokes putting in for their mate. The final margin would be irrelevant. As it turns out, what he'd hoped for didn't occur...and the final margin just highlighted that fact. He'll be very upset with the lack of effort.
Q2-Has that result influenced the selection process for upcoming games?
Yes, i think blokes who are unwilling or unable to put in effort will be spending more time in the 2's. Be that young, old or otherwise
Q3-No doubt youngsters will benefit from game time… but is that more beneficial when you’re surrounded by more experienced players?
There is a balancing act. Young players learn what to do off senior players. The more young players, the less senior players and the less learning they can do. I've got no problem with bringing in kids, but we probably should have dropped a couple back for some of the recently promoted ones.
Q4-What do the senior players feel about being surrounded by such a young group? How do they feel about carrying an extra burden with the knowledge that they may not be around to taste any success?
If you spend too much time thinking about the future, the don't spend enough time focusing on the now. They should be focused on doing their role, which includes helping the kids coming through.
Q5-How do experienced fringe players feel about being passed over for selection to get games into kids? The message for these guys is “You’re finished!”…how does that affect team dynamics? They may not be the future but they are the “here and now” and as such can be a positive or a negative influence depending on how they’re managed.
How do they feel? Depends on the individual. You can be a Laidler and sook it up and get sent packing. Or you can be an Armfield who knuckles down and earns a spot in the leadership group. I've been banging on about the culture of this club pre-Mick and this is an example i've used to explain why we've kept the players we have and delisted others. We need the right character in our players and we need to weed out ones that are not.
Q6-Despite comments to the contrary, wins don’t seem to be important at the moment and it’s all about development. But how long can folk hold the faith while that process occurs?
Wins are not important, effort is. Bring effort and wins will come. Wins are a byproduct of effort. With effort comes development, belief and confidence in the whole direction the club is heading.
Q7-How good a match day and tactical coach is Bolton. He has wraps on him as a developer of character. What’s he like as a developer of footballers.
Whatever happens long term with Bolton as our senior coach, he is the right coach for now. Whether he can take us to a flag, or even close, he is fixing the culture. Get that right and we'll be better placed to understand if he can actually coach on match day.
Q8-Are we asking too much of Weitering and Cripps…both appear to be hampered by injuries that aren’t serious enough to stop them from playing but what’s the mental toll of continuing to push the injured body?
Yes we are, but unfortunately we don't have many options. We have a list full of kids, some of them will obviously not be up to the rigours of AFL footy 22 rounds a year. So you are already limited in who you can pick. Go a step further and realise some blokes are just simply not good enough to deserve a game. In the end you are left with very few blokes to choose from who can be half competitive. A broken Weitering and Cripps are twice as good as whoever their replacements might be.
Q9-We’ve seen some “flashes of brilliance” by a few of the young fellows (e.g.Fisher’s goal) but does that necessarily indicate a champ in the making? I remember a “weave and dodge” from Boekhorst in one of his early games that had us a bit excited, but nothing much has come of that….yet. These guys will develop at different rates. Some won’t meet expectations others will exceed them.
I'm properly more conservative than most when it comes to evaluating talent. Most people see those examples and write them in for a 10 year career. Reality shows us that even if that trend continues upwards, they might get injured or want out. I'm not sold on any of them yet. Look at Yarran as a classic example.
Q10-Can we hold the group together? Players like Cripps and Weitering, should they continue their development, will attract decent offers down the track. Will we be at a stage where some of the burden has been shouldered by others and they’re happy to stay?
The club has put a lot of faith in them, signing them up to long term deals. You can't predict the future, but the club has done well to give us the best chance of keeping them in Navy Blue.
Not playing Palmer and Smedts every week is almost beyond a joke. Both come from successful clubs. both older, experienced and hard bodied....
Palmer played in a PF last year FFS.
I think Bolts gets too caught up in his own BS to be honest - and let's be frank there is a lot of BS/spin in his mantra.
A nice measured set of questions lods.
Some of the teeth gnashing is indicative of a club that has been in the weeds for a long time. I get it, and for those that are younger the lack of success has made supporting carlton a masochistic pastime.
Bolton, along with the rest of the club are now implementing a plan that is only 1 and a half years in. There are a few aspects to the approach, but it is essentially an exercise in change management. Change in the club culture and mindset on and off the field is happening. It primarily happens by changing the people. This is happening, with massive list turnover and new off field staff over the past two years. Sustaining this requires a core of motivated and aligned senior staff. This is clearly happening. The message may be boring, but it is consistent and not deviating.
Losses like friday will, in the scheme of things be blips. Some have argued that they hurt young players. If we have players that go to water after such a loss, then i would suggest they are not the players we want at the club. We are seeking to build a tough, resiliant and motivated team. We had one friday night game this year in a hostile place against a likely finals team. Seems a good opportunity to test some youngsters. If we had taken palmer and kerridge and co we might have lost by 50. And learnt less about some players.
Many of the current carlton club actions are not keeping with past practice. Thank goodness for that.
I think we are going along nicely considering where we were at 2 years ago.
If we had held on to a few players that people keep fretting about we would be in for another 10 years of mediocrity.
My only change in hindsight would have been to get the Gibbs deal done with the view if bringing in a senior hard as nails (Barlow) mid and a younger 21 year old mid with body strength and kicking ability.
The other change would have been the captaincy.
Outside of that, stay the course.
A nice measured set of questions lods.
Some of the teeth gnashing is indicative of a club that has been in the weeds for a long time. I get it, and for those that are younger the lack of success has made supporting carlton a masochistic pastime.
Bolton, along with the rest of the club are now implementing a plan that is only 1 and a half years in. There are a few aspects to the approach, but it is essentially an exercise in change management. Change in the club culture and mindset on and off the field is happening. It primarily happens by changing the people. This is happening, with massive list turnover and new off field staff over the past two years. Sustaining this requires a core of motivated and aligned senior staff. This is clearly happening. The message may be boring, but it is consistent and not deviating.
Losses like friday will, in the scheme of things be blips. Some have argued that they hurt young players. If we have players that go to water after such a loss, then i would suggest they are not the players we want at the club. We are seeking to build a tough, resiliant and motivated team. We had one friday night game this year in a hostile place against a likely finals team. Seems a good opportunity to test some youngsters. If we had taken palmer and kerridge and co we might have lost by 50. And learnt less about some players.
Many of the current carlton club actions are not keeping with past practice. Thank goodness for that.
Applause emoticon x 1,000
Not playing Palmer and Smedts every week is almost beyond a joke. Both come from successful clubs. both older, experienced and hard bodied....
Palmer played in a PF last year FFS.
I think Bolts gets too caught up in his own BS to be honest - and let's be frank there is a lot of BS/spin in his mantra.
You know you could apply this exact same post to any of our coaches and multiple other coaches across the AFL particularly the criticism of the coach, and the only thing that changes is called an agenda.
They're all full of rhetoric, BS statements, and part of the process is figuring out that these characters are pretty much all the same.
Despite what they think they won't tell you why things happen, you have to have faith in the decision making.
A nice measured set of questions lods.
Some of the teeth gnashing is indicative of a club that has been in the weeds for a long time. I get it, and for those that are younger the lack of success has made supporting carlton a masochistic pastime.
Bolton, along with the rest of the club are now implementing a plan that is only 1 and a half years in. There are a few aspects to the approach, but it is essentially an exercise in change management. Change in the club culture and mindset on and off the field is happening. It primarily happens by changing the people. This is happening, with massive list turnover and new off field staff over the past two years. Sustaining this requires a core of motivated and aligned senior staff. This is clearly happening. The message may be boring, but it is consistent and not deviating.
Losses like friday will, in the scheme of things be blips. Some have argued that they hurt young players. If we have players that go to water after such a loss, then i would suggest they are not the players we want at the club. We are seeking to build a tough, resiliant and motivated team. We had one friday night game this year in a hostile place against a likely finals team. Seems a good opportunity to test some youngsters. If we had taken palmer and kerridge and co we might have lost by 50. And learnt less about some players.
Many of the current carlton club actions are not keeping with past practice. Thank goodness for that.
Very good post Vivian. I would just add that we are now set on our current course and there will be no turning off from it. We really have to make this work now and I'm confident that we will.
We're playing the kids.... on mass, I wasn't expecting that.
It won't help the win/loss column but it could be good for the club going forward, hopefully it accelerates some of 1st and 2nd year guys progress and development.
I'd be spewing if I was Smedts and Palmer, come to a new club, are probably doing enough to deserve a game but are being overlooked, simply to get games into some of the younger guys.
As a part of this plan, I would hope internally that we have a huge crack at the VFL flag/premiership with our 2nds team.
I can accept this approach for 1 season as a part of the bigger picture and rebuild. Next year will be a totally different story, there will be no excuses.
This year, I will keep a keen eye out for as many green shoots as possible, along with pressure and effort consistently over 4 qtrs from all 22 players that run out each week for the Navy Blues.
We're playing the kids.... on mass, I wasn't expecting that.
It won't help the win/loss column but it could be good for the club going forward, hopefully it accelerates some of 1st and 2nd year guys progress and development.
There is a very good reason an army doesn't train the troops on the battlefield, and we don't have the opportunity to recruit anywhere near as many replacements as the military can!
This accelerated learning rubbish is a myth, it doesn't happen that way and the proof is clear for all to see in the historical records. Even GWS recruited some hacks and past heroes to teach the kids off and on the field and they had a whole higher level of kid to do it with! SO few can actually come in and show progress, and those that do risk being busted up like Weitering now appears to be! ;)
I'd be spewing if I was Smedts and Palmer, come to a new club, are probably doing enough to deserve a game but are being overlooked, simply to get games into some of the younger guys.
If you think the morale of Smedts and Palmer is being damaged, think about the older guys who thought they were being brought into to assist!
As a part of this plan, I would hope internally that we have a huge crack at the VFL flag/premiership with our 2nds team.
I can accept this approach for 1 season as a part of the bigger picture and rebuild. Next year will be a totally different story, there will be no excuses.
Certainly going to be interesting 24 months, if BB gets that far one thing is proven beyond doubt, Carlton has changed!
This year, I will keep a keen eye out for as many green shoots as possible, along with pressure and effort consistently over 4 qtrs from all 22 players that run out each week for the Navy Blues.
I'd be happy just to see the 4 Qtr pressure, I don't need the glitzy showbags and 10s highlights as I've already seen plenty of that from the likes of Garlett and Yarran! I want AFL footballers first, I was hoping to see some 4 Qtr AFL football from the likes of Palmer and Smedts!
Smedts and Palmer in small doses only, they aren't going to get us anywhere other than giving others a chop out when required for the next year or so.
Smedts and Palmer in small doses only, they aren't going to get us anywhere other than giving others a chop out when required for the next year or so.
Which makes Amers statement about their headspace even more relevant!
If anyone thinks that Friday was a good learning experience for anyone then they need their heads examined.
Getting games into players is one way to learn, but it's infinitely more beneficial when players have some actual guidance and you can't get that when you're are dominated and spend the night chasing tail without the footy.
Had they learned something about playing defensive football I would have said no worries but port took the foot off the pedal after they went up by an unassailable margin. They didn't put the foot on the throat till half time, and still accounted for us easily.
All the kids learned was how hard it is to be play against bigger bodies when you butcher the football.
Perhaps that's a lesson that needed learning and the kids who might think the older blokes are "past" it and that they should be getting a game ahead of might have a greater appreciation for the guidance they're given.
That goes for our fans too. All the Rowe Thomas white palava can go flying out the window.
If anyone thinks that Friday was a good learning experience for anyone then they need their heads examined.
Getting games into players is one way to learn, but it's infinitely more beneficial when players have some actual guidance and you can't get that when you're are dominated and spend the night chasing tail without the footy.
Had they learned something about playing defensive football I would have said no worries but port took the foot off the pedal after they went up by an unassailable margin. They didn't put the foot on the throat till half time, and still accounted for us easily.
All the kids learned was how hard it is to be play against bigger bodies when you butcher the football.
Perhaps that's a lesson that needed learning and the kids who might think the older blokes are "past" it and that they should be getting a game ahead of might have a greater appreciation for the guidance they're given.
That goes for our fans too. All the Rowe Thomas white palava can go flying out the window.
It's becoming clearer by the week, too many kids in the one team, and kids don't learn from kids.
I admit I was always skeptical, but when the likes of Leigh Matthews start highlighting and questioning the benefits of playing so many kids in one team I have to sit up and take notice. Maybe my skepticism is justified. In my opinion Matthews has always been thoughtful, fair, unbiased and balanced in his comments.
Which is why I struggle to understand supporters favoring and siding with the opinions of the likes of Dunstall, BT, King, Darcy, Bartlett, Watson and Ling. Their comments nearly always benefit their favored clubs, and their opinions change with the current status of the opposition.
We'd be much better of listening to Matthews than most of the other media drongos!
An Aside; Which leads me to the pre-game exchange between BT and Matthews a week or two ago. BT was downright disrespectful of Matthews and his opinions on air. It was an out and out disgrace and if Ch.7 had any balls BT should now be having a holiday from broadcasting. Although I concede it appears BT has obviously had a lecture of sorts from someone because he was far more positive this past weekend than previous weeks, he even made a point of highlighting how little criticism he was offering which is always a tell about a message he was delivered! He was sending the "See I'm a good boy now" message!
There is a very good reason an army doesn't train the troops on the battlefield, and we don't have the opportunity to recruit anywhere near as many replacements as the military can!
This accelerated learning rubbish is a myth, it doesn't happen that way and the proof is clear for all to see in the historical records. Even GWS recruited some hacks and past heroes to teach the kids off and on the field and they had a whole higher level of kid to do it with! SO few can actually come in and show progress, and those that do risk being busted up like Weitering now appears to be! ;)
In principle I agree, in practice it's not always possible. I saw the movie the battle of Britain the other day/night, they didn't have time to train their pilots properly, with very minimal traning they were throwing them in planes and sending then up. It worked, Britain won that battle.
If Bolts believes this is the best way forward then I'm happy to back him in even if I don't completely agree with the way he's going about it. Bolts has said we're a club in a hurry. IF what he is doing with the kids now works, (and that's not a certainty) then we will all enjoy the benefit of it in 2-3 years time, maybe even as soon as next year.
If Bolts believes this is the best way forward then I'm happy to back him in even if I don't completely agree with the way he's going about it. Bolts has said we're a club in a hurry. IF what he is doing with the kids now works, (and that's not a certainty) then we will all enjoy the benefit of it in 2-3 years time, maybe even as soon as next year.
I agree, as long as it is BBs idea and not interference from other club administrative staff.
I agree, as long as it is BBs idea and not interference from other club administrative staff.
Definitely!
The issue for me is that we need to the balance of kids worked out better. One big problem I see is that a lot of our kids are low possession or cameo players only - they are not able to make a meaningful contribution over 4 qtrs and this leaves an enormous amount of work for the older players to carry.
IMO playing SPS, Pickett, Polson, Fisher & Macreadie all together in the one team is basically guaranteeing a thumping at this stage. I like all of them individually, but they are not physically ready to all play together in the one side. 2 or 3 is ok, but not 5! SPS and Pickett probably stay, but I would rotate the other 3.
Williamson is stronger and looks like he really knows how to find the ball, Curnow has played a couple of better games, and Jack had 18 possessions and is starting to be a real contributor. Marchbank is all class and just needs to settle into the team. Weitering needs to go into defence.
We need some more run through the middle and off half back - I would bring back Smedts as we need him to become a contributor. I would love to give Sheehan a run when he's ready. Kerridge at this stage is also important as he is super fit and gives the midfielders a chop out.
Clearly we also need to get games into Mackay sooner rather than later. He is going to take 2 years to make a meaningful impact, and the quicker we start that process the better. He will be a difficult match up for the Swans so I'd have him in this week.
It's becoming clearer by the week, too many kids in the one team, and kids don't learn from kids.
I admit I was always skeptical, but when the likes of Leigh Matthews start highlighting and questioning the benefits of playing so many kids in one team I have to sit up and take notice. Maybe my skepticism is justified. In my opinion Matthews has always been thoughtful, fair, unbiased and balanced in his comments.
Which is why I struggle to understand supporters favoring and siding with the opinions of the likes of Dunstall, BT, King, Darcy, Bartlett, Watson and Ling. Their comments nearly always benefit their favored clubs, and their opinions change with the current status of the opposition.
We'd be much better of listening to Matthews than most of the other media drongos!
An Aside; Which leads me to the pre-game exchange between BT and Matthews a week or two ago. BT was downright disrespectful of Matthews and his opinions on air. It was an out and out disgrace and if Ch.7 had any balls BT should now be having a holiday from broadcasting. Although I concede it appears BT has obviously had a lecture of sorts from someone because he was far more positive this past weekend than previous weeks, he even made a point of highlighting how little criticism he was offering which is always a tell about a message he was delivered! He was sending the "See I'm a good boy now" message!
LP correct me if am wrong but didnt Matthews come out last week and say prior to winning the 3 flags, he played kids and they benefited immensely despite the beltings they coped along the way?
LP correct me if am wrong but didnt Matthews come out last week and say prior to winning the 3 flags, he played kids and they benefited immensely despite the beltings they coped along the way?
He did, but he differentiated that by saying he thought Carlton are playing too many at once.
Also keep this in mind, when Matthews took over 1999, his idea of young includes blokes like Voss(24), Lappin(24) and Keating(25). Not the 19 year olds we think of with Carlton! By 2002 he had Brown(21) and Bradshaw(24) added to that list.
Not sure we can measure "Playing the kids" by the presence of Jonathon Brown! ;D
I seriously doubt we'd have an issue if we had Jonathon Brown and Daniel Bradshaw as the KPFs surrounded by 19 year olds, with Lappin, Voss, Akermanis and Headland on-ball and the Scott brothers assisted by Johnston on the HBF. :o
Most of Matthews young players were there to offer chop-outs to those listed above, not acting as the prime movers.
Since I posed the questions I suppose I should have a "gut guess" at answering them.
Q1-What did Bolton really think going into this last game? Did he expect the possibility of a 100 point thrashing or did he expect the kids to put on a bit of a show?
I’m thinking that he probably approached the game with the view that we’ll “Play the kids and they’ll give an effort.” In the very back of his mind he may even have been holding out the hope of an upset win. He was more likely expecting about a 4-6 goal loss with good contests and pressure. I don’t think he would have been expecting the third quarter effort and would have been disappointed by that performance. The task ahead of him would suddenly have loomed a bit larger.
Q2-Has that result influenced the selection process for upcoming games?
Unless we’re absolutely devastated by injuries I doubt we’ll see so many young players playing at once. They’ll be rotated through, but even so most will end the season with about a dozen games under their belts.
Q3-No doubt youngsters will benefit from game time… but is that more beneficial when you’re surrounded by more experienced players?
I think that’s a given. I use the example of Marc Murphy and the treatment he received in his early years compared to Joel Selwood’s introduction to senior football. Selwood was surrounded by a group of mature talented players Murphy was battered from pillar to post with very little if any support from his team-mates. Which player has the better chance of reaching his potential?
Q4-What do the senior players feel about being surrounded by such a young group? How do they feel about carrying an extra burden with the knowledge that they may not be around to taste any success?
Simpson will soldier on. He will be a Carlton player until his demise (career wise). Gibbs, Murphy and Kreuzer are a different proposition. While success may elude them at Carlton there may be an opportunity to experience it with a move to another club. These players are probably looking at a final big pay day in the process. The choice for them comes down to… stay at Carlton and help guide (carry) the youngsters for another season or two, or become a part of a side where everyone is carrying a fair share of the weight... possibly (probably)for a bit extra coin. For the professional footballer it seems an easy decision…it may be a bit harder for someone who feels the ties to the club a bit stronger.
Q5-How do experienced fringe players feel about being passed over for selection to get games into kids? The message for these guys is “You’re finished!”…how does that affect team dynamics? They may not be the future but they are the “here and now” and as such can be a positive or a negative influence depending on how they’re managed.
This is a tricky one to manage. A single disgruntled player probably won’t have much of an influence. A group of half a dozen can be a greater concern. If the choice is between an experienced player and a youngster for a spot in the side, and there is not a very clear difference in ability, you can make a good argument for giving the younger player game time. It’s an argument even the experienced player can see and accept. But if the older player is busting a gut week after week and constantly giving up a place to a player just to get “games into them” you create a problem. Bolton says the team is picked on form. It has to be, and the selections need to be seen as fair. Older players will feel the inclusion and younger players understand that selection needs to be earned. It sets a standard.
Q6-Despite comments to the contrary, wins don’t seem to be important at the moment and it’s all about development. But how long can folk hold the faith while that process occurs?
Many hard core, rusted on, passionate supporters will wait as long as it takes. The problem is that there is a wide range of supporter commitment and the “hard core” make up only a fraction of that support. Even within that group you will get the constant slipping away of support as success fails to materialise. How patient are some folk now compared to this time last year? No doubt there are a few who were committed who are now beginning to have a few concerns. Now factor in sponsors, kids who look to follow a successful side, potential members, fringe supporters and… the old “boogie men” (hopefully a nearly extinct breed) who look to exert power and influence at the club for their own self-gratification and are just waiting for things to go pear shaped so they can step in. You realise that this is not really an “As long as it takes” operation!
Q7-How good a match day and tactical coach is Bolton. He has wraps on him as a developer of character. What’s he like as a developer of footballers.
This is a “wait and see” one. A coach may keep a player who is being beaten on his opponent for what we feel is too long but at this stage it may be more about finding out the character of the player and how he responds and fights back. It’s a learning experience and with a few of these going on it may affect results in the short term. As for tactical nous…we probably need to wait and see over the next year or so how Bolton responds in closer encounters.
Q8-Are we asking too much of Weitering and Cripps…both appear to be hampered by injuries that aren’t serious enough to stop them from playing but what’s the mental toll of continuing to push the injured body?
Yes. It’s the circumstance we find ourselves in that these two guys are being asked to shoulder responsibilities that would be taken up by 24-25 year olds at other clubs. I think Cripps thrives on it but I suspect he’s been battling against injuries in recent times. Weitering is a slightly different concern. A few folk have made mention of it, but he seems to be a bit out of sorts. I don’t believe it’s a courage thing but more a confidence thing. No doubt after his season last year he’s getting more attention. He’s been off the field a few times this year after knocks. The things I’ll be looking for in the next couple of weeks will be his approach to the contest. Does he go when he should or is there that momentary hesitation? Is he standing back off contests? When he does attack the ball is it with purpose and confidence. When he does have the ball is he instinctively choosing good options and is his disposal effective (all were features of his game last year)….and just basically does he seem to be enjoying his football.
Q9-We’ve seen some “flashes of brilliance” by a few of the young fellows (e.g.Fisher’s goal) but does that necessarily indicate a champ in the making? I remember a “weave and dodge” from Boekhorst in one of his early games that had us a bit excited, but nothing much has come of that….yet. These guys will develop at different rates. Some won’t meet expectations others will exceed them.
It’s a bit of a lottery isn’t it? Some of the early green shoots may turn out to be a bit weedy and we won’t know in the short term. But the good thing is that as the weeks go by we will start to get a better idea of strengths and weaknesses. Development of players has been a huge problem for us and it’s important that we start to get lots more hits than misses in this area.
Q10-Can we hold the group together? Players like Cripps and Weitering, should they continue their development, will attract decent offers down the track. Will we be at a stage where some of the burden has been shouldered by others and they’re happy to stay.
This could very well be the key. A club that struggles for season after season will not be an attractive proposition for talented players. Such players have to shoulder an extra responsibility for little reward other than personal satisfaction. On the other hand a group who are committed and unified and focussed on working together for improvement and success will be more likely to stay together. On the surface this approach looks to be a real strength of Boltons. In some respects he may be quite happy to see the end (or movement) of older players so that “His” group can grow together and work towards that goal free of old influences. Being a part of that will be a big factor in retaining players.
We’ll probably end up with a massive salary cap problem because of all the talent but that’s definitely preferable to the alternative. :D
Good answers Lods. I think you must have seen the questions before the test started :)
I think that a key factor is how well Bolton manages his relationships with the players. We've read accounts by Marchbank and others about how Bolton's approach/manner/passion/philosophy influenced their decision to come to Carlton. Of course, such accounts are dismissed as puff pieces by some but, if Bolton can't exert the same influence over the playing group in two or three years time, the re-set will require re-setting.
I can't see Bolton letting that happen and the buy-in he has obtained from the playing group, and the club as a whole, will result in sustained and sustainable success.
Q7-How good a match day and tactical coach is Bolton. He has wraps on him as a developer of character. What’s he like as a developer of footballers.
This is a “wait and see” one. A coach may keep a player who is being beaten on his opponent for what we feel is too long but at this stage it may be more about finding out the character of the player and how he responds and fights back. It’s a learning experience and with a few of these going on it may affect results in the short term. As for tactical nous…we probably need to wait and see over the next year or so how Bolton responds in closer encounters.
Not just close encounters, we need to to be able to stop beltings like we copped last week and have your leaders standup and make a fight of it, I felt we gave it away
last week and the white flag went up....not all Boltons fault at this early stage as we are still in the education phase but he has too learn and not restrict himself to a few set moves like swapping Weitering and Rowe when the horse has bolted.
Hope to see more imagination with his tactics down the track but as I said I understand we are still in the education phase and not all the players are ready to be used in multiple roles especially the young kids....
The idea of "A Coach" being the answer is so 2016! ::)
If "A Coach" was the answer then bring back MM!
Reality is, match day, preparation, tactics are developed by a team headed by the coach. I think the Dawks are finding this out, it's way too easy to give the front man all the credit and fork the rest!
I do agree though that a bad person int he top job can bring the rest undone!
Our problems run deeper than just one bloke, and one bloke will never be the answer.
Also, at the moment anyway, it's not so easy to throw players around when you have half a team that doesn't yet even know how to play just one position properly! :o