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Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #525 –
Or maybe it’s like the blue hydrogen industry claiming CCS and catalysis are solutions to the problematic emissions and byproducts. A bit too early for that, no?

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #526 –
I don't believe technology, whether old or new, will help much in dealing with the climate crisis. It is precisely our unchecked technological wizardry that got us into this mess in the first place. Trying to come with new technologies to solve the problems created by older technologies might make some minor improvements, and that's about it IMO.

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #527 –
I agree there’s a risk that science will be used as a fig leaf for continued pollution. It’s a bit like the tobacco industry introducing filters and menthol (or getting behind vapes) to suggest they’re making tobacco safer to use. I wouldn’t want the fossil fuel industry to use CCS and other means to justify doing business as usual.

On the other hand, there have been some scientific advances or interventions that did help to make things safer. Banning CFCs has helped to replenish the ozone layer and introducing unleaded petrol has reduced the developmental damage inflicted by lead.

But the scientific consensus appears to be that even eliminating emissions totally wouldn’t allow us to stop the rise in global temperatures (and unless science can offer alternatives, that’s not going to happen). We need to eliminate carbon dioxide that’s already in the atmosphere and only science can make that happen. There are currently DAC (Direct Air Capture) projects that are trying to scale up those efforts: see this for example.

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #528 –
Quote from: Mav on
I agree there’s a risk that science will be used as a fig leaf for continued pollution. It’s a bit like the tobacco industry introducing filters and menthol (or getting behind vapes) to suggest they’re making tobacco safer to use. I wouldn’t want the fossil fuel industry to use CCS and other means to justify doing business as usual.

On the other hand, there have been some scientific advances or interventions that did help to make things safer. Banning CFCs has helped to replenish the ozone layer and introducing unleaded petrol has reduced the developmental damage inflicted by lead.

But the scientific consensus appears to be that even eliminating emissions totally wouldn’t allow us to stop the rise in global temperatures (and unless science can offer alternatives, that’s not going to happen). We need to eliminate carbon dioxide that’s already in the atmosphere and only science can make that happen. There are currently DAC (Direct Air Capture) projects that are trying to scale up those efforts: see this for example.


Science and technology are both morally neutral enterprises that serve centres of power. Scientists aren't pure either.

I guess the point I was making is that the fundamentally unsustainable lifestyle of those in the developed world in not really tied to technological choice. Whilst it makes some difference, I'm not sure that solar panels on the roof or everybody driving EV's will help all that much. All the alternatives to traditional energy sources have their own problems, and environmental issues that need to be sorted out. I would argue the climate and environmental issues are locked right into the very fabric and essence of the way we live.

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #529 –
But unless the clickers or zombies take over, or some other apocalyptic event happens, that’s not going to change. Let’s hope science can help us avoid disaster.

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #530 –
Quote from: Mav on
Or maybe it’s like the blue hydrogen industry claiming CCS and catalysis are solutions to the problematic emissions and byproducts. A bit too early for that, no?
In terms of Hydrogen production I think you mean electrolysis which is the process of making hydrogen from seawater, the catalysis part comes into capturing, converting or reducing waste products like the catalytic converters in cars. Catalysis can be used as part of the electrolysis process to make hydrogen production from seawater even more efficient. Once hydrogen is produce catalysis can be used to convert the hydrogen back in electricity producing only water as a by-product.

btw., If hydrogen is so evil, why are "Green" enterprises like Forrest and Cannon-Brookes proposing to use it as a form of energy storage for a project like SunCable. Is it only green when a Greenie find a use for it? This goes to the heart of the doubts held by people like @PaulP , the big problem is people, no matter what the technology is capable of delivering.
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #531 –
Pretty much any big corporate or energy enterprise, be it fossil fuel, renewables, low carbon or no carbon, the behaviour and spin pretty much makes Trump look like a moderate.

"That mine is filthy and destroying the environment, it's not the mine supplying our SolarPV or battery factory is it?"

"We only source from "the good mines", ban all mines, except our "good ones", leave us with our clean mine!

"We've a monopoly on clean mining, only mines that supply us are Clean!"
The Force Awakens!
 

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #532 –
No, I’m thinking blue hydrogen might be one of those ideas that makes Paul wary. Imagine using coal to produce hydrogen and then trying to find a way to deal with the carbon dioxide and methane produced so it can be spruiked as a solution to climate change. And the process suffers from significant energy loss. Not an ideal energy solution. By the way, doesn’t Twiggy do a bit of mining?

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #533 –
Quote from: Mav on
No, I’m thinking blue hydrogen might be one of those ideas that makes Paul wary. Imagine using coal to produce hydrogen and then trying to find a way to deal with the carbon dioxide and methane produced so it can be spruiked as a solution to climate change. And the process suffers from significant energy loss. Not an ideal energy solution. By the way, doesn’t Twiggy do a bit of mining?
You seem to like to forget the formula for methane, and also it seems the concept of anaerobic.

I sincerely doubt there will be much methane emitted buy a hydrogen production facility, in fact they might even be keen to find some! ;D
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #534 –
You seem to have forgotten that oil and gas producers have been burning off methane for yonks, aerobically.

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #535 –
All those warehouses full of old SolarPV, soon to be labelled toxic waste, full of silicates, the new asbestos apparently! ;)

@Mav Will you help stop the production, they are destroying the planet and killing innocent tradespeople?

Yet in comparison to battery production, almost spotlessly clean! :o
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #536 –
I’ll be just as active in that area as you will be in ensuring CCS is 100% efficient and all methane is catalysed. How are you going to do that?

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #537 –
Although I've contributed SFA to this thread I must say that I'm learning and enjoying the contributions from Wingman MAV and the Spotted One. Keep 'em rollin' chaps... informative stuff.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #538 –
Quote from: Mav on
I’ll be just as active in that area as you will be in ensuring CCS is 100% efficient and all methane is catalysed. How are you going to do that?
I'm 100% active on all fronts, and I will never claim a process is without flaws or faults, I betting on a little bit from all solutions and not trying to just pick a winner that makes me feel good.
( That is making me feel good as long as I ignore what lies beneath! )

Next thing you'll be telling me we are re-planting forests to reduce methane emissions! ::)
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #539 –
I think it’s better just to reduce the amount of methane we produce, isn’t it?