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Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #660 –
There is quite a lot of irony surfacing in Green Energy / No Carbon / Low Carbon circles these days, intentions get exposed.

Major renewable groups are starting to realise the folly of putting all the eggs into one basket, and the futility of replacing mining for coal or oil with mining for rare earths and lithium, ultimate we can't survive on the difference.

I sat through an online seminar recently on geothermal, which was followed up by a Q&A session. Inevitably that spawned a series of media articles that have appeared on various websites, podcasts and forums. It's not lost on me that many of the geothermal naysayers turn out to be advocates for the Solar PV industry, people that masquerade as being about saving the planet, but that have actions suggesting they are about saving a bank balance!

It's even more ironic for people in Victoria, as coal shuts down Victoria is pretty much completely ignoring Australia's best geothermal sources right under the very coal deposits they no longer wish to mine. Base load energy that would have avoided the coming summer blackouts and excess heat deaths. Instead more solar, and more batteries, with more mines I expect to dig up and supply the raw materials!
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #661 –
I'm not sure if this is tragic or funny but I'll post it anyway, as brutish as it may be!

I read today an ambit claim that peak veganism has past, with the demise or pending demise of several fake meat companies, but why post that here?

Because fake meat has been touted as a cure for climate change, apparently all those cows and sheep emit shed loads of methane and CO2, we have to cut the herds back, and so "fake meat" really is a thing!

But perhaps all is not lost, because one very observant individual has seemingly found the solution for all those herd related methane and C02 emissions, and he posed it as a simple question.

"Why the feck don't we just eat em!" vegans everywhere immediately imploded!
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #662 –
Hmmm. Whether intended humorously or not, the above post is rather odd. As I’m sure you know Pat, the environmental damage is well and truly done by the time you eat the animal.

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #663 –
The environmental damage problem is a simple equation. There are more humans on earth than earth can sustainably cater for the way we currently live, work, play and eat.

We've started with the consumer, but realistically that's the symptom not the problem.

Every time you go somewhere the theme is crowded and busy and expensive. 

Over population is the issue, we can remove a lot of our waste and thats a noble intention but realistically we have grown exponentially over the last 100 years and consume more per head than we ever have before.  Where historically people need shelter they have multiple homes with rental income.  The family doesn't have one or two cars to make life efficient, they own one each.  There may be a holiday home or a city home and a country home.  There's multiple TV's, tablets, laptops and computers rather than the family one that gets used by all.

We have a new phone every couple of years because the software is no longer rolled out for older models.

Every facet of your life you will see has "necessitites" that are nice to haves or wants rather than needs and it's all designed to put money in some corporations pocket.

Now all that being said, none of us want to give up any of these modern day conveniences but we may need to think hard about these things moving forward.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #664 –
Quote from: Thryleon on
The environmental damage problem is a simple equation. There are more humans on earth than earth can sustainably cater for the way we currently live, work, play and eat.

We could fix that problem fairly easily.
2017-16th
2018-Wooden Spoon
2019-16th
2020-dare to dream? 11th is better than last I suppose
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #665 –
Quote from: PaulP on
Hmmm. Whether intended humorously or not, the above post is rather odd. As I’m sure you know Pat, the environmental damage is well and truly done by the time you eat the animal.
Yes it was light-hearted, I think the assertion was you eat them but don't replace them.

But on a more serious note, there are issues with the green accounting. For example, the removal of livestock doesn't mean that spot in the ecosphere won't be populated by some other mammal, and particularly here in Australia where kangaroo and wombat populations swing wildly to match the available boom or bust resource cycle. The assertion seems to be that native animals do not count in the CO2 budget as they are not human induced carbon emissions, but they are still a CO2 source basically scaling dependant on biomass. The key figure then is the differential between livestock and wildlife, on the carbon budget it's not as much as the figures suggest, however there is a clear benefit to removal of hoofed breeds on the Australian environment as we already know.

So while I ponder a buffalo fillet from my local pub, US Buffalo where numbers are skyrocketing under 1st nations commercialisation, I have to wonder why we don't eat kangaroo ahead of sheep, chicken or beef and set it up as a native license industry?

My own perspective on this is everything in moderate ratios relative to cost, cost which includes environmental and financial considerations, and a cost can be loss of jobs not just cost to produce or cost to the environment. It is not and never will be an all or nothing debate like the End Oil people, who in their extreme are possible just as damaging as inverse concerns. Extremism is a circle, go far enough left or right and you meet in the middle.
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #666 –
I love me some Kangaroo and would happily eat it more often if it was more readily available.

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #667 –
Quote from: kruddler on
I love me some Kangaroo and would happily eat it more often if it was more readily available.
Our local butcher supplies lean kangaroo, I believe it's either low or zero cholesterol, and is terrific cooked like eye fillet rare or medium rare, you can use it to make a lean spectacular low and slow Saag Roo curry, a dish that often uses goat, mutton or other strong gamey meats.

But because of various agendas he has to keep it off display and is an ask for it only menu item, which unfortunately some people only feed to their pets!
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #668 –
Quote from: LP on
Our local butcher supplies lean kangaroo, I believe it's either low or zero cholesterol, and is terrific cooked like eye fillet rare or medium rare, you can use it to make a lean spectacular low and slow Saag Roo curry, a dish that often uses goat, mutton or other strong gamey meats.

But because of various agendas he has to keep it off display and is an ask for it only menu item, which unfortunately some people only feed to their pets!

My wife buys some kangaroo mince for the dogs, everytime she does i ask where is my kangaroo....perhaps i need to get myself in the dog house to get it?

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #669 –
While I don't dispute that ruminants produce methane and, thus, contribute to carbon in the atmosphere and, hence, climate change, I'm not sure that their contribution is as dire as some vegans would have us believe. 

Ruminants include cattle, bison, buffalo, yak, gaur, antelope, deer, giraffe, okapi, sheep (domestic and wild species) and goats (domestic and wild species). Camels (including the South American llamas, etc) are pseudoruminants and don't produce as much methane as true ruminants. Most non-ruminant herbivores like horses and zebra produce methane but in more modest amounts.  Other non-ruminant herbivores, like elehants and hippopotamus, produce enormous amounts of methane because of the vast quantities of methane they consume.

Vast migratory herds of methane producing herbivores roamed every continent except Australia and Antarctica until they were either slaughtered by humans or replaced in part by domesticated or semi-domesticated versions of the original herbivores.  I don't think that I have ever seen a study that compares pre- and post-agricultural herbivore numbers and the relative quantities of methane produced by domesticated and wild herbivores.

Eat less meat because it's good for the planet seems to me to be an unscientific attempt to force a vegan diet on naturally omnivorous humanity. 

“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #670 –
Quote from: DJC on
Eat less meat because it's good for the planet seems to me to be an unscientific attempt to force a vegan diet on naturally omnivorous humanity.
The way society is heading, I think the above slightly adjusted version is probably the most relevant!
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #671 –
Quote from: LP on
The way society is heading, I think the above slightly adjusted version is probably the most relevant!

In fact, it should be waste less!
“Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?”  Oddball

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #672 –
Not sure what to make out of the current debates around COP28, if I take anything out of this it is probably that the politics of reporting is dragging us all into the mire!

In summary the reporting seems to be;

 - It's only green if it's my green, your green doesn't count.

 - One solution fits all, my solution.

 - It's everybody else's fault.

 - No matter what is really happening around the globe, don't mention the "N" word.

Because the various green solutions are all cutting each other's throat trying to be the big player in the town, "N" is now back fairly and squarely in the plans from all the big economies. It will screw a country like us over, because we'll develop renewable technologies that need export scale sales to make ends meet, and there will be no major economy market left to sell them to!

If China, USA, Germany(EU), Japan and India go "N", it's pretty much the death knell for every local major green energy technology initiative I know of!
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #673 –
Quote from: LP on
Not sure what to make out of the current debates around COP28, if I take anything out of this it is probably that the politics of reporting is dragging us all into the mire!

In summary the reporting seems to be;

 - It's only green if it's my green, your green doesn't count.

 - One solution fits all, my solution.

 - It's everybody else's fault.

 - No matter what is really happening around the globe, don't mention the "N" word.

Because the various green solutions are all cutting each other's throat trying to be the big player in the town, "N" is now back fairly and squarely in the plans from all the big economies. It will screw a country like us over, because we'll develop renewable technologies that need export scale sales to make ends meet, and there will be no major economy market left to sell them to!

If China, USA, Germany(EU), Japan and India go "N", it's pretty much the death knell for every local major green energy technology initiative I know of!
Too late...China have 21 new Nuke Power Stations underway or semi completed and India are second place with around eight.
China will more than likely have to build our Nuke plants if we ever went that way given we would need infrastructure upgrades as well as multiple plant builds unless overseas companies like Brookfield stump up the money along with Cannon-Brookes and the like. With more Greens, Teal's and minor parties likely entering Parliament its unlikely though we would see Nuclear in Australia in the near to medium future..however with increased migration and push to grow the population its going to put more pressure on energy resources and with Natural Gas on nose in some states I cant see how a already stressed power grid system will cope with the extra load and even with upgrades/fixes the prices will only go up and make life harder for most unless we get a Government who will bite the bullet with Nuclear and risk political demise.
 

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #674 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on
................. I cant see how a already stressed power grid system will cope with the extra load and even with upgrades/fixes the prices will only go up and make like harder for most unless we get a Government who will bite the bullet with Nuclear and risk political demise.
Yep, for me it looks like we want to be selective with our learnings from recent history, we've completely discounted the farce that is the EU Energy grid and we are barrelling head long into crazy high energy prices.

The last time I was in the EU, I had a trip covering towns in France, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland and Austria. There were places where you could stand in one town and stare across a valley at another town paying 1800% more for it's energy.

I think when the subsidies go, the real subsidies not just the ones called a subsidy, things are really going to hit the fan.

Climate change is real, but there is no need to cut your own legs off to make things better!
The Force Awakens!